From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Mar 5 14:38:54 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:38:54 -0500 Subject: Siouan etymology? In-Reply-To: <40AB75B1.9040508@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Is this ethnonym analyzable in Siouan? "Iskonsogos" "Iskousogos" Recent archaeological evidence for the location of this group suggests that the name could refer to Ohio Valley Siouans. The -konso- is of course attractive as a possible garbling of "kaansa". Thank you, Michael Mccafferty From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 5 15:15:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:15:11 -0600 Subject: Siouan etymology? Message-ID: Hard to say, but it resembles the Spanish ethnonym 'Escansaques' quite a bit. They are supposed by some to have been the Kansa. You can read about this assumption in articles by the late Mildred Mott Wedel and others. Bob > Is this ethnonym analyzable in Siouan? > "Iskonsogos" > "Iskousogos" > Recent archaeological evidence for the location of > this group suggests > that the name could refer to Ohio Valley Siouans. > The -konso- is of course > attractive as a possible garbling of "kaansa". From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 7 18:43:30 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:43:30 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: <003701c52196$210fecf0$19b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Good catch, Bob! I think Michael has asked about this ethnonym before, maybe on the list, but I don't think anyone ever noticed that resemblance before, which is fairly striking. I remember wondering whether I could analyze escansaques in terms of Dhegiha, but the best I could do was: eskans aques hkaNze akha Kaw the "(it's/they are) the Kaws" I've written hkaNze rather than kkaNze to emphasize the potential for treating a tense stop as a a preaspirate. I don't know the historical distribution of aspiration of (e)s- in Spanish. I would have to assume -e is elided before a- of following akha, a normal pattern of contraction within phrases in Siouan generally, I think, though I think that akha may tend to come out as [kxa] in Kansa, under rules I don't know. Alternatively, the form also looks like it might involve reduplication: is-kouso-kos, is-konso-ko(n)s, which I don't think works in a Siouan context, either as to form or sense. You'd expect *-konsko(n)so, and reduplication is typically for inanimate plurals. Is there anything about the linguistic context of their attestation that explains any of the morphology of the form? Returning to the -akha suggestion, I'm not sure akha, which something like 'the singular animate proximate' is appropriate for the context. I can't remember if I've seen akha as opposed to ama (nominally the plural animate proximate) or ma (animate collective obviative) with ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca. In fact, the simgular/plural glosses here are somewhat arbitrary and off target, as Ardis and Carolyn have suggested but for whatever reasons ama tends to appear with plurals. The "articles" are also the progressive (or continuous?) auxiliaries, of course, and have some existential functions as well. Omaha-Ponca akha and ama also appear in some contexts as akhe and ame, which I take to be akha(a) or am(a) + e in a cleft construction, so perhaps, akh=e is actually a good potential reading here. I don't recall the details of Mildred Mott Wedel's discussions, but I think she was negative or neutral. I wonder about the locations? The historical period Pawnees, Osage, Omahas, Poncas, etc., certainly went fairly far west in buffalo hunts. I don't know the exact routes, though I've seen some maps for Pawnee practice. I don't know to what extent horses were necessary for the later routes, but I think that some prehistorical archaeological materials in eastern Colorado have been suggested as reflecting hunting activities of more easterly Caddoan groups rather than year round residence. I don't remember the details. The Iskousogos are a closed book to me? Where are they supposed to have been? John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 7 20:06:26 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:06:26 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) Message-ID: > eskans aques > hkaNze akha > Kaw the > "(it's/they are) the Kaws" > I've written hkaNze rather than kkaNze to emphasize the potential for treating a tense stop as a a preaspirate. I don't know the historical distribution of aspiration of (e)s- in Spanish. It's very widespread, so I suspect that dialectally it's rather old. It is a characteristic found in Andalucia and Extremadura in Spain and in various places all over Spanish America. There's evidence of it at least since the 17th century. If it was characteristic of early expeditions to the Plains, the pronunciation would have been something like [ehkansaqueh], with the initial e- epenthetic. It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. I can't remember, but it's covered in Mildred Wedel's discussion. Since Osage still has hp, ht, hc, hk for OM, PN, KS and QU pp, tt, (cc), kk, and since Siebert recorded hp, ht, hk in Quapaw in 1941, it seems fair to say that this pronunciation underlies modern pp, tt, kk in all Dhegiha dialects. But exactly when the gemination assimilation occurred is hard to say. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 8 01:56:06 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:56:06 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E97@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > It's very widespread, so I suspect that dialectally it's rather old. It > is a characteristic found in Andalucia and Extremadura in Spain and in > various places all over Spanish America. I think it's considered that most Colonial dialects reflect Andalusian roots, so if it occurred there in the 17th Century it is at least plausible to figure it into this analysis. I know it's found in Argentina. I have a friend from there who once said solemnly in the course of a discussion of Spanish promunication "Yo nunca aspiro" 'I myself never aspirate' pronounced [j^o nuka ahpiro]. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. I'm not sure it wasn't [lo? extao? unio?]. It was a long time ago, and before I had taken any linguistics courses, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak Spanish quite like that since though I've run into a few Chilenos. > There's evidence of it at least since the 17th century. If it was > characteristic of early expeditions to the Plains, the pronunciation > would have been something like [ehkansaqueh], with the initial e- > epenthetic. If /hk/ was heard and rendered as "sc" it would get the initial epenthetic e (prothetic e?) automatically. > It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. I'll look this up. A quick check suggests that escansaques figures on the web entirely in the context of a foregone conclusion that it is a synonym of Kansa. One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 8 15:07:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:07:14 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos and ahpiracion de la S. Message-ID: > I know it's found in Argentina. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. All over the 'southern cone' of SA as well as circum-Caribbean and most coastal areas. Very widespread. In most areas it's also a 'marker', in the Labovian sense, of male speech, which tends to discourage hypercorrection. > One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. Onate may be right. It's one of the early Span expeditions to the interior plains of NA. Bob From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Mar 8 15:30:48 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:30:48 +0000 Subject: Iskousogos and ahpiracion de la S. Message-ID: It also occurred (and maybe still occurs) in Philippine Spanish speech; the story goes that when the US warship that signalled the transfer of power from Spain to the US came into Subiic Bay, the secretray to the viceroy exclaimed "Sen~or, loh americanoh ehtan aqui". The indigenous peoples of the Philippines were customarly referred to as indios (Indians) in Spanish colonial sources, by the way. Philippine Spanish was basically Mexican Spanish, complete with the Nahuatl loan element (ZACATE for 'grass', etc) but that's another story. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 08/03/2005 15:07:14 >>> > I know it's found in Argentina. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. All over the 'southern cone' of SA as well as circum-Caribbean and most coastal areas. Very widespread. In most areas it's also a 'marker', in the Labovian sense, of male speech, which tends to discourage hypercorrection. > One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. Onate may be right. It's one of the early Span expeditions to the interior plains of NA. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 9 05:01:51 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:01:51 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > If /hk/ was heard and rendered as "sc" it would get the initial epenthetic > e (prothetic e?) automatically. {All references are from the Handbook of North American Indians series.) It appears that the Iskousogos were on the Ohio, below the falls at Louisville and were reported to LaSalle at Montreal in 1688 by some visiting Iroquois (Hunter 1978 15:588). It's probably fair to note that "isk" to transcribe hk doesn't make as much sense in French terms as it does for Spanish. > > It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. (Bob speaking) > > I'll look this up. ... (various not very helpful remarks from me) Per Parks (2001 13.2:965) "in 1601, Juan de On~ate visited a village consting of skin-covered tents placed in a circle, estimated at 5000 inhabitants, whom the Spaniards called Escanjaque (refs). A Tonkawa captive in the village, taken by the Spainards to Mexico City, drew a map that depicted 8 villages of the Escanjaque, who lived scattered along both sides of a river. He called them Aguacane, apparently the native name of this people (refs)." Parks rejects rejects Apache and Tonkawa identifications based on the inability of an Apache scout to speak with the Escanjaque and on the Tonkawa captive. Since the apparent location was in the North Canadian valley in Oklahoma near present Watonga, he also rejects a Kansa or Osage identification. He suggests Aguacane resembles Aucanis, connected with the Iscani, while Escanjaque resembles Iskani. The Iskani were later subsumed within the Wichita. Parks reports variants Escansaques, Extcanjaque, Escanxaques and Estanxaques. I believe in this period there would be a good chance that j would represent z^ (zh) and x represent s^ (sh). So, though the business of camping in a circle in skin tents certainly sounds more Siouan, and certainly more Dhegiha-like, than Caddoan, there are problems with a Dhegiha association, and there are serious problems in dating and location with associating the Iskousogos and Escansaques. There are some archaeologists who argue that the Kansa evolved in place in Kansas from Woodland predecessors, and they would have an easier time with the Escansaques as Kansa, but that approach eliminates the Iskousogos conneciton. And I doubt any Siouanist would be comfortable with this endemic approach, unless they were willing to derive the Kansa elements throughout Dhegiha from pre-Siouan people in the area. But, KkoNze 'Kansa' is a nearly universal Dhegiha clan name and, if lacking any clear meaning, it is in reasonably even canonically Siouan form. A very small minority of non-archaeologists largely ignorant of contact period ethnography (mainly me) suspect all the Dhegiha groups of being Oneota groups from somewhere in the general area of southern Minnesota and northern Iowa, arriving in the historical Dhegiha localities from c. 1450 or so on - later on further south, of course. This small minority group wouldn't be too surprised to find a village of Dhegiha-speakers hunting in the general area in which the Escanjaque were found in 1601, and engaged in hostilities with a wichita village 15 days away, but permanent residence sounds unlikely. Pondering Aquacane - Awakane (?) or perhaps AwakaniN (?) - in terms of Dhegiha doesn't bring anything to mind, though a'k?a is 'south wind' and the Kansa are sometimes called 'the people of the south wind'. The rest is nice and Siouan in form, but doesn't seem to combine usefully. Note that though Osage and Kaw have a number of superficial phonetic differences, they are rather similar grammatically, and in other phonetic ways, and are probably not very deeply diverged from each other. Kaw might be a very independent village of a combined Kaw-Osage population at some not very deep remove - a century or two? Maybe less. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 9 05:46:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:46:47 -0700 Subject: Articles and Existentials with Ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: A linguistic follow up on "KkoNze=akha" Existentials by Making Verb of Noun JOD 396.10 kkaN'za=i= the ha K PL EVID DEC 'they are (apparently) Kansas' JOD 1890:456.5 wa?u= i ha woman PL DEC 'they are women' Simple Examples of Singular/Plural (Animate Proximate) Articles umaN'haN=akha O the sg umaN'haN=ama O the pl Use of "Singular" Article with Plural Reference JOD 1890:399.7 umaN'haN=akha j^u'ba O the sg some 'a few Omaha*s*' JOD 1890:426.12 umaN'haN=akha= tta=dhis^aN bdhe O the sg to drawing I go 'I go toward those who are Omaha' JOD 1890:437.3, 1890:748.5 umaN'haN=akha O the sg 'the Omaha*s*' Use of Doubled Articles In Identifications JOD 1890:396.12 umaN'haN=am= ama O the pl 'they were Omahas moving' Use of =e Cleft in Identification JOD 1890:666.4 ppaN'kka=akh= e P the sg it is 'it is the Ponca' JOD 1890:63.11 is^tiniNkhe=akh= e akha I the sg it is 'Ishtinike is the one' JOD 1890:101.32 mi'kkase=akh=e C the it is 'it is the Coyote' JOD 1890:79.10 aN'phaN=am= e elk the pl it is 'it was elk' (?) Use of a Single Article (Progressive Verb?) in Identification JOD 1890:456.4 ni'kkas^iNga=ama ha person the pl DEC 'they are persons who are moving' In summary, based on the Omaha-Ponca texts, the most likely reading for kkoNze=akha (ha) is 'they are (a specified quanitity of, by default all?) the Kansas'. The most likely reading of kkoNze=akh=e would be 'it is (a specified number, by default all?) the Kansa (who)'. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 16:07:41 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:07:41 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: Howdy, I realize it is difficult to translate Siouan words from songs, but I have a question concerning the possible meaning or translation of an Omaha-Ponca or Siouan word which may be written as "shke-ma." The word was written in a transcription of Ponca songs sung and translated by Ponca singers Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown in 1967. The quote and it's source is listed below. Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide. Jonathan Holmes "MoN-chu Shke-ma, that�s a Siouan name. We don�t know what it means. The only part we know is MoN-chu, that means (Grizzly) Bear. Our language is similar. Don�t know if it�s Spotted Bear or Black Bear, it�s a Siouan name. When this man arrived on the scene of the battle, this Sioux ran away." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 24) Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, in October of 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 9 17:43:18 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:43:18 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050309160741.16371.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan wrote: > Howdy, > I realize it is difficult to translate Siouan words from songs, but I have a question concerning the possible meaning or translation of an Omaha-Ponca or Siouan word which may be written as "shke-ma." The word was written in a transcription of Ponca songs sung and translated by Ponca singers Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown in 1967. The quote and it's source is listed below. Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide. Jonathan Holmes > "MoN-chu Shke-ma, that’s a Siouan name. We don’t know what it means. The only part we know is MoN-chu, that means (Grizzly) Bear. Our language is similar. Don’t know if it’s Spotted Bear or Black Bear, it’s a Siouan name. When this man arrived on the scene of the battle, this Sioux ran away." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 24) It seems that the root /s^ke/ has to do with tying or untying (Swetland 1991 "UmoN'hoN iye of Elizabeth Stabler":173, 181,276,285 dhis^ke' - 'to untie', ukki'gdhas^ke - 'to tie'; 'to hook'; Quintero 2004 "Osage Grammar": 29 kaas^ke' - 'tie [e.g., shoes]'). The -ma is probably the pluralizing positional -ma or ama'. The /s^ke/ root always seems to take an instrumental prefix, though. It may not be able to stand by itself. And if it does have this meaning, we would be left with something like "The Bound (or Loosed) (plural/moving) Grizzly Bear", which seems a little odd for a name. Another possibility is that the vowel in "shke" was misunderstood, perhaps in being slurred with the following "a-" in "ama'". /s^kaN/ is a pretty common root meaning "moving", and it can stand alone. In that case, we would have something like "The Moving Grizzly Bear(s)", which would fit the sense of that following -(a)ma' very well. It might even be possible that the "shke" is a slurred reduction of an original s^kaN'dhe, which would mean "cause to move". In that case, we would have: "Grizzly Bears Caused to Move". This could tie in to the hi'gaN of "How Rabbit Killed the Black Bears", which I believe includes a line by the Bear asking "Who is going to cause me to move? (s^kaN'aNdhe)". My best shots, Rory From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 9 21:49:20 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:49:20 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050309160741.16371.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan: Would you please give the full cite for "Ponca Songs Sung and Translated". I would like to order or view a copy. Jon Orens MD show me mimeographed texts 40 years ago. I met Lamont Brown once at a pow-wow. Later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 03:17:55 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:17:55 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: I'd like to chime in on this one. The "Siouan Name" on the recording Jonathan referred to is MaH'chu shkii ma - not shke (that is, it is a long "e" sound in English, as in tipi or tea). I've also heard the same song by other singers wherein the word was pronounced "shti'ma". I've never secured a full translation of the word. However, after playing the Stewart recording for some elderly Ponca men, their response was "they're not sayin that right", etc., etc. I, too, would be interested in any feedback on this one. But, I'm certain the vowel is "i" (as in "wi" or "ni") and not "e" (as in "pe'de"). Thanks, TML -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 17:42:51 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:42:51 -0600 Subject: More on the meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: A nice person just mentioned that, in my last post, I did not include any alternative translations that may have been offered by the Ponca individuals that said "MaH'chu shki'ma" wasn't correct. Sorry about that. When I did inquire about the song and word in question, I had one elder say the word should be "MaH'chu hi'ma" (Bear Teeth) and another tell me the word was "Ma'chu ni'ta" (Bear Ear). I've never found a reference to "MaH'chu hi'ma" (Bear Teeth) as a Ponca name. However, "MaH'chu ni'ta" (Bear Ear) was the name of a Ponca man born in 1808; he is listed on the 1861 and 1890 Ponca census rolls. That would place this individual in a time when fighting between the Sioux and Ponca was heating up and during the time when many of the songs on the Stewart tape were composed. This is all anecdotal at best. We don't know if the individual singers on the Stewart recording learned the song "incorrectly", or learned it from someone that "didn't have it quite right", or the meaning of their rendering was "correct" with a translation lost in antiquity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 18:13:22 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:13:22 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Louie, The exact transcription on page 24 is: L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA ______________________________________________________ SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. THE ONLY PART WE KNOW IS MOnCHU, THAT MEANS BEAR -- OUR LANGUAGE IS SIMILAR -- DONT KNOW IF ITS SPOTTED BEAR, OR BLACK BEAR -- SIOUAN NAME. WHEN THIS MAN ARRIVED ON THE SCENE OF THE BATTLE, THIS SIOUX (MOnCHU SHKEMA) RAN AWAY. SHUPIDE - WHEN I COME MATO - BEAR IN SIOUAN DIALECTS - DAKOTA I do not know if this has been "published" as a complete work. I have a Xeroxed copy that was given to me years ago. I hope this helps. Jonathan Louis Garcia wrote: Jonathan: Would you please give the full cite for �Ponca Songs Sung and Translated�. I would like to order or view a copy. Jon Orens MD show me mimeographed texts 40 years ago. I met Lamont Brown once at a pow-wow. Later, LouieG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 10 19:29:37 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:29:37 -0500 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) Message-ID: I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". Any comments? Thank you. ============================== Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Mar 10 20:07:02 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:07:02 -0800 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been following this very closely, but I don't know what led someone to think of -g- as an Iroquoian plural. Wally > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 20:46:57 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:46:57 -0800 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was wondering this myself. As far as I know in Cherokee, de- or te- is inanimate plural suffix and ani- animate plural, such as te-tlukv (trees) and ani-asgaya (men, people). Not sure how this compares to Mohawk, Seneca, and its other cousins farther north. Dave Wallace Chafe wrote: I haven't been following this very closely, but I don't know what led someone to think of -g- as an Iroquoian plural. Wally > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 10 21:28:46 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:28:46 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) Message-ID: I think -k, -ok, -ak and sundry variants spelled with -g are the Algonquian animate proximate plural -- not Iroquoian. The inanimate plural is -a and is homophonous with the obviative singular. I'm afraid I have no more to contribute on this name. If the Escansaques and Iskou/nsogos were contemporaneously in both the Ohio Valley and central KS and environs, then equating the two is probably unrealistic, but JEK already pointed that out. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) > > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter > of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is > that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read > as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) > is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I > haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to > Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've > always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and > the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, > then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the > southern Plains? > > > > > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Thu Mar 10 21:45:23 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:45:23 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050310181322.93619.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom: I think you must be referring to a recording of the songs. Evidently there is a companion booklet with the words. I thought you were referring to a book. Where can I purchase this recording? Later, Louie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 10 22:59:45 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:59:45 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050310181322.93619.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom - Thanks for pointing out that the "e" in "Shke-ma" is pronounced [i]. That shoots down all three of the ideas I posted the other day. Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, the repeated line should initially be transcribed as s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we would have s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With this interpretation, the sentence comes out as s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma or ama'. Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line might read MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where you were, to flee ..." And the sentence would end > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding epenthetic Y. > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does this translation seem at all reasonable? Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 23:45:07 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:45:07 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: Louie: The recording you are referring to is of Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown, made by Tyrone Stewart in 1965. It's not available commercially. ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Garcia To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Tom: I think you must be referring to a recording of the songs. Evidently there is a companion booklet with the words. I thought you were referring to a book. Where can I purchase this recording? Later, Louie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Mar 11 00:08:31 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:08:31 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: Spoken: S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) When I got to where you were, they were fleeing MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources gave the same or similar translations. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:59 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." > > > > > Tom - Thanks for pointing out that the "e" in "Shke-ma" is > pronounced [i]. That shoots down all three of the ideas I > posted the other day. > > Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints > that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and > Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or > perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, > the repeated line should initially be transcribed as > > s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > > > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. > > s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz > has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened > room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going > toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, > which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; > John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So > > s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". > > -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" > is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the > positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. > It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have > > s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". > > The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". > > The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to > read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency > in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we > would have > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) > > "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above > is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with > epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody > went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, > strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be > the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With > this interpretation, the sentence comes out as > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! > > "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" > > This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct > address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. > This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the > leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the > name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is > Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is > to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable > OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean > "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma > or ama'. > > Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are > they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, > or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was > put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be > referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed > recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have > constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the > leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be > able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known > to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line > might read > > MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... > > "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where > you were, to flee ..." > > And the sentence would end > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? > > "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" > > The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding > epenthetic Y. > > > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] > > Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does > this translation seem at all reasonable? > > Rory > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Mar 11 02:55:28 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:55:28 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <003b01c525ce$75ea30a0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: Tom wrote: > A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: > > Spoken: > S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) > > When I got to where you were, they were fleeing That's reasonable. And if the pronunciation is -de rather than -di, we should probably be reading it as 'but' rather than 'when': "I arrived at where you were, but they had fled." > MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears > > Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing > > One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" > (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. > the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources > gave the same or similar translations. That's also reasonable, and it may make it easier if we assume that we are not addressing the enemy leader. How sure are we of the 'ears' translation? We've been told by our Omaha speakers that nitta' is 'ears', while ni'tta is 'living'. These are pretty close, distinguished by accent, apparently, in modern Omaha, and perhaps by nasalization in niN'tta, 'living', according to Dorsey. The name is listed in Fletcher and La Flesche (52) with the translation "Grizzly bear's ears", but the accentuation is only for a single compound word: MoNchu'nita. The other MoNchu' + X names I found among the Ponka listings are all verbal constructions, most of them statives like 'living'. Understanding the name as "Living Bear" rather than "Bear Ears" seems to me to fit better with the pattern of other names. If "Living Bear" was the correct meaning of the name, then "Bear" is the head of the phrase, and could probably be used alone for short. /ni'tta/ sounds nothing like /s^ki'ma/ except for the vowels, and I don't think phonetic confusion can be stretched far enough to explain such a substitution. But if the man is Living Bear, or Bear for short, then we can still be talking about the man the Ponkas remember as MoNchu'nitta without the /nitta/ part of that having to be uttered in the song. If the name were "Bear Ears", leaving off the "Ears" wouldn't be so plausible. > (the rest are song vocables) I don't know much about Ponka songs, but exactly what is the definition of a vocable, and how do we know one when we hear one? How arbitrary or conventional are they supposed to be? Why do we have that slight variation in the ending of the two lines, OI vs. YA? Revised proposal (still interpreting vocables as words): > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he I got to where you were at, but from here were fled ... S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i OI! I got to where you were at, but from here they were passing in flight! MoNc^Hu' s^ki'-ma(s^e) s^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he You-all who returned with/to Bear, I got to where you were at, but from here were fled ... S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? I got to where you were at, but were they running away? Not quite as thrilling this way. Needs more work! Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Mar 11 16:55:50 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:55:50 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: > > Spoken: > > S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) > > > > When I got to where you were, they were fleeing > > That's reasonable. And if the pronunciation is -de rather than -di, > we should probably be reading it as 'but' rather than 'when': The "(a)" is dropped in this particular song, probably to make the word fit the melody. That's a common practice. Nearly every one I spoke to in this regard said "(a)" when speaking the word. Also, the pronounciation is definitely "de", not "di". > How sure are we of the 'ears' translation? We've been told by our Omaha > speakers that nitta' is 'ears', while ni'tta is 'living'. These are pretty > close, distinguished by accent, apparently, in modern Omaha, and perhaps by > nasalization in niN'tta, 'living', according to Dorsey. My mistake. It is "nitta' ". They were rather insistant that the name is Bear Ears. > /ni'tta/ sounds nothing like /s^ki'ma/ except for the vowels, and I don't think phonetic > confusion can be stretched far enough to explain such a substitution. I don't think we have an actual "substitution" here. It was interesting to find several people immendiately recognizing "s^ki'ma" as "a mistake" or not sounding quite right. One Ponca man ventured hi'ma (which he translated as "teeth") but he was rather up front in qualifying that as a guess. As I mentioned previously, I really don't know why the word is sung as "s^ki'ma" (or sometimes "s^ti'ma"). We don't know if the singers on that particular recording learned the song "incorrectly", or learned it from someone that "didn't have it quite right", or their version was "correct" with a translation lost in antiquity. Singers in that particular generation learned songs without the use of tape recorders, etc. They typically had one shot at learning the tune from one of a handful of older singers. Then they would teach the song to the other singers in their own generation. In short, something might have gotten lost in the sauce. "S^ki'ma" might have also been thought of as an untranslatable ancient word (there are plenty of those examples in the Ponca language) and it's meaning or validity never questioned. We just don't know for certain. The trouble with this particular song, as is the case with many others, is I don't have a rendition of the song with the word "nitta' ". Nearly every rendition I've heard uses "s^ki'ma". Fluent Ponca speakers are quick to say "that ain't right", but the song is still sung with "s^ki'ma" or "s^ti'ma". This is fairly indicative of something I learned a long time ago about the Ponca language. In songs and in names the rules seem to fly out the window. I imagine there must be some pattern or set of rules for word abbreviation in songs and names but I've never been able to get a handle on it. Elders have been quick to point out such abbreviation is "something strange" but I have yet to find anyone that can explain it. I usually get: "hmmmm....you're right.....I don't know". Plus, as you can well imagine, there is a huge difference between how a word is sung and how a word is spoken - sometimes it's like the difference between night and day. Imagine trying to learn English from songs on the radio. > I don't know much about Ponka songs, but exactly what is the definition of > a vocable, and how do we know one when we hear one? How arbitrary or > conventional are they supposed to be? Why do we have that slight variation in the > ending of the two lines, OI vs. YA? A vocable is a meaningless phoneme (?) that's used to carry the melody of the song, similar to la-la-la in English songs. It would be difficult to explain, in brief, how a vocable is recognized. That would take an epistle. I think you can say there are "stock" vocables or vocable patterns that seem to be used in many songs. In general, these are predictable, usually occur at certain places in the song structure, and are recognizable in the general context of Ponca music. The variation can be due to individual singers rendering the song. Can vocables be confusing when trying to translate songs or conducting linguistic analysis? You bet. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 22:41:01 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:41:01 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <003b01c525ce$75ea30a0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great deal on the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation using the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to the name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that the Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we still theorize as to it's possible meaning? Jonathan Written Transcription of Ponca Song: Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Commentary: "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, �I�m going to be a chief�. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he�d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he�d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, �When I get back to the Siouxs, if you�ll pity me, spare my life.� He said, �When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.� But the Ponca didn�t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that�s his name, but we don�t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, �you said he was my friend�. A-cha-tho, that�s a Siouan word wh! ich we can�t translate. I shay, �that�s what you said,� �that you were my friend,� meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That�s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Tom Leonard wrote: A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources gave the same or similar translations. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:59 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." > Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints > that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and > Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or > perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, > the repeated line should initially be transcribed as > > s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > > > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. > > s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz > has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened > room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going > toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, > which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; > John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So > > s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". > > -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" > is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the > positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. > It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have > > s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". > > The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". > > The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to > read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency > in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we > would have > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) > > "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above > is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with > epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody > went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, > strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be > the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With > this interpretation, the sentence comes out as > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! > > "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" > > This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct > address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. > This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the > leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the > name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is > Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is > to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable > OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean > "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma > or ama'. > > Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are > they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, > or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was > put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be > referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed > recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have > constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the > leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be > able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known > to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line > might read > > MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... > > "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where > you were, to flee ..." > > And the sentence would end > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? > > "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" > > The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding > epenthetic Y. > > > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] > > Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does > this translation seem at all reasonable? > > Rory > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Mar 12 18:37:51 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:37:51 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050311224101.566.qmail@web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan wrote: > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ‘I’m going to be a chief’. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he’d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he’d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ‘When I get back to the Siouxs, if you’ll pity me, spare my life.’ He said, ‘When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.’ But the Ponca didn’t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that’s his name, but we don’t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ‘you said he was my frien! d’. A-cha-tho, that’s a Siouan word which we can’t translate. I shay, ‘that’s what you said,’ ‘that you were my friend,’ meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That’s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) That commentary helps a lot. I wasn't making much sense out of the transcription alone. i shay is es^e', 'you said (it)'. tho must be dhoN, perhaps short for dhoN's^ti, meaning 'formerly'. i ka-ga-ma the might be analyzed in two different ways. In either case, the ka-ga part must be kHage', or 'friend' in OP. (I believe Dakotan would use kHola'.) 1. In both OP and Dakotan, a causative construction can be used with a relationship term to indicate a relationship between two people. The causative is -dhe in OP, and -ye in Dakotan. To conjugate, an affixed pronoun is placed between the elements. Thus, to say 'He is my friend', we should have something like 'friend' + 'me' + -dhe/-ye. In Dakotan, 'me' is -ma-, but in OP it is -aN-. So if we analyze this as a causative relationship term, we are left with a reasonable OP kHage'dhe, inflected with a Dakotan affixed pronoun, and no explanation for the preceding i. 2. In OP, a preceding i- may be attached to relationship terms to indicate the relationship in a verbal sense. I think this is used more often in OP, while the causative is normally used in Dakotan. So ikHa'ge would mean 'his friend' (and not 'my friend'). In that case, ma the would probably be moNdhiN', 'he walks', used here as a behavioral continuative. This interpretation seems more likely to me. So ikHa'ge moNdhiN', 'he goes as his/their friend'. Ha ni-ka-bthe is less clear. I suppose the ni-ka is ni'kka, as in ni'kkagahi, 'chief', or ni'kkas^iNga, 'person'. The bthe might be either bdhe', 'I go', or bdhiN', 'I am (a member of such a set)'. If ma the is in fact moNdhiN', as suggested above, then the possibility of interpreting transcribed e as [iN] is supported. Another word for chief is gahi'ge, which seems to contain the same gahi as in ni'kkagahi. The word s^iN'gaz^iNga, 'child', 'baby', is the only one I know of besides ni'kkas^iNga to have that s^iN'ga element. Perhaps s^iN'ga originally meant 'youth' or 'youthful'? In that case, a 'little youth' would be a small child, and a young ni'kka would be a ni'kka who is immature, hence a common man in contrast to a chief, which could be extended from there to mean a person in general. In that case, gahi' could mean 'lead' or perhaps 'drive', and gahi'ge could mean 'leader', while a ni'kkagahi would be one who leads ni'kkas. This might suggest that ni'kka is a fairly honorable term. In Osage, it means 'man' (La Flesche), so a ni'kkagahi would be a "leader of men". But perhaps it was even better than that in Ponka, meaning, perhaps, specifically a young man of a good family, or the son of a chief. Or perhaps the preceding ha combined with ni'kka to produce this meaning. Either way, I would guess the meaning as approximately Ha-ni'kka bdhiN, es^e' dhoN "I am the heir-of-a-chief (?)", you said formerly. A-cha-tho The only thing I can think of here is that the ch is being used for [t?], which could give us at?a' or at?e', 'I die', for the first part of that. > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho The Shke-ma here should probably be s^ki'-(a)ma or s^kiN'-(a)ma. To take one last shot at reading it in OP, I would try MoNc^Hu', s^ki' ama', ikHa'ge moNdhiN, es^e' dhoN(s^ti). Bear, you came back, it is said, he goes as a friend, you said formerly. Beyond that, I would have to trust the Ponka elders and appeal to the Dakotanists on the list for help on "Shke-ma". I'd also like to note that the "yo he ye oi" and "yo he ye ya" series listed look a lot like the other ones, though they can't have the meaning here that I was attributing to them there. Hence, Tom's claim that they are semantically meaningless vocables is favored over my suggestion that they were stylized sentence endings. Rory Jonathan Holmes To Sent by: siouan at lists.colorado.edu owner-siouan at list cc s.colorado.edu Subject Re: Meaning of Siouan word 03/11/2005 04:41 "Shke-ma." PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great deal on the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation using the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to the name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that the Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we still theorize as to it's possible meaning? Jonathan Written Transcription of Ponca Song: Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Commentary: "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ‘I’m going to be a chief’. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he’d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he’d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ‘When I get back to the Siouxs, if you’ll pity me, spare my life.’ He said, ‘When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.’ But the Ponca didn’t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that’s his name, but we don’t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ‘you said he was my frien! d’. A-cha-tho, that’s a Siouan word which we can’t translate. I shay, ‘that’s what you said,’ ‘that you were my friend,’ meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That’s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) From tmleonard at cox.net Sat Mar 12 23:31:09 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:31:09 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: I used this same song as a reference for the previously posted song. The Ponca elders I spoke to were, again, insistent that the name was MaN'chu nitta, or Bear Ears. But, this again goes to some of the problems in translating songs that I mentioned earlier. MaN'chu nitta might have been a Sioux captive, but that possibility needs more research (you could try looking in early census rolls or ethnographic field notes). I think it is also important to point out that the referenced transcript has little in the way of linguistic analysis. That was probably way beyond its intent. It was essentially an attempt at a phonetic transcript put together, post-facto (without corroboration by the performers) by non-Indians as an aide in learning Ponca songs (not language). The transcript, depending upon what version you have, tried to approximate Fletcher & LaFlesche's orthography, but presents a few problems. Accordingly, you end up with problems like "s^ke'ma" vs. "s^ki'ma" or "the, i shay tho" vs. "egi's^e"(you said) or "es^e' " (you [all] said). As the emphasis was on music (not linguistics), and the recipients of the recording didn't speak Ponca, you also end up getting abbreviated or very generalized explanations (not literal word-by-word translations) by the performers. Again, words that are sung are very different than when spoken. I think what you have here is: ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will be / you said ha ni'kka - an old form for chief, actually implying "a commander" (see LaFlesche's Osage dictionary for an example) - derived from ni'kkagahi ('chief') bthe (hta ni'ke) rendered as: btha (it's "btha" on the recording, not "bthe") (hta ni'kke implying 2nd person future) egi's^e - you said From are2 at buffalo.edu Sun Mar 13 04:12:40 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:12:40 -0500 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In general, I hesitate to say anything about songs due to sacredness and other issues. However, the 2 comments I have back up the original translations and transcriptions given by the Elders (without a need to posit additional reconstruction). >>ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will be / you said (as given by T. Leonard) Ths is certainly likely to be 'bthe' 'I go' or 'I become.' It is used as an inchoative auxiliary as well as a main verb in modern Omaha. There's no need to reconstruct or posit it as bdhiN 'I am.' Also in >>I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, �you said he was my friend!� (in original and R. Larson posting) the 'ma' is likely the progressive auxiliary 'ama' and not a particle based on moNthiN or a causative. I can only be amazed by Elder speaker abilities to translate. Quoting Rory M Larson : > > > > > Jonathan wrote: > > > > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ‘I’m going to be a chief’. Let > me give you > the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken > captive > among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then > he’d be > missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive > among the > Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he’d go back to the Sioux. One > time when > the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next > time the > Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, > and when > they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ‘When I get > back to the > Siouxs, if you’ll pity me, spare my life.’ He said, ‘When I get > back to the > Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the > council > of chiefs.’ But the Ponca didn’t spare his life, they killed > him. The song > goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that’s his name, but we don’t > know what it > means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ‘you said he was my > frien! d’. > A-cha-tho, that’s a Siouan word which we can’t translate. I > shay, ‘that’s > what you said,’ ‘that you were my friend,’ meaning that after > he professed > friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the > Poncas > and they captured him. That’s how the song was made, for > that man." > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > That commentary helps a lot. I wasn't making much sense out of the > transcription alone. > > i shay is es^e', 'you said (it)'. > > tho must be dhoN, perhaps short for dhoN's^ti, meaning 'formerly'. > > i ka-ga-ma the might be analyzed in two different ways. In either > case, the ka-ga part must be kHage', or 'friend' in OP. (I > believe > Dakotan would use kHola'.) > > 1. In both OP and Dakotan, a causative construction can be used > with a relationship term to indicate a relationship between > two people. The causative is -dhe in OP, and -ye in > Dakotan. > To conjugate, an affixed pronoun is placed between the > elements. > Thus, to say 'He is my friend', we should have something > like > 'friend' + 'me' + -dhe/-ye. In Dakotan, 'me' is -ma-, but > in > OP it is -aN-. So if we analyze this as a causative > relationship > term, we are left with a reasonable OP kHage'dhe, inflected > with > a Dakotan affixed pronoun, and no explanation for the > preceding i. > > 2. In OP, a preceding i- may be attached to relationship terms > to > indicate the relationship in a verbal sense. I think this > is > used more often in OP, while the causative is normally used > in > Dakotan. So ikHa'ge would mean 'his friend' (and not 'my > friend'). > In that case, ma the would probably be moNdhiN', 'he walks', > used here as a behavioral continuative. This interpretation > seems more likely to me. So ikHa'ge moNdhiN', 'he goes as > his/their friend'. > > Ha ni-ka-bthe is less clear. I suppose the ni-ka is ni'kka, as in > ni'kkagahi, 'chief', or ni'kkas^iNga, 'person'. The bthe might be > either bdhe', 'I go', or bdhiN', 'I am (a member of such a set)'. > If > ma the is in fact moNdhiN', as suggested above, then the possibility > of interpreting transcribed e as [iN] is supported. Another word > for > chief is gahi'ge, which seems to contain the same gahi as in > ni'kkagahi. > The word s^iN'gaz^iNga, 'child', 'baby', is the only one I know of > besides ni'kkas^iNga to have that s^iN'ga element. Perhaps s^iN'ga > originally meant 'youth' or 'youthful'? In that case, a 'little > youth' > would be a small child, and a young ni'kka would be a ni'kka who is > immature, hence a common man in contrast to a chief, which could be > extended from there to mean a person in general. In that case, > gahi' > could mean 'lead' or perhaps 'drive', and gahi'ge could mean > 'leader', > while a ni'kkagahi would be one who leads ni'kkas. This might > suggest > that ni'kka is a fairly honorable term. In Osage, it means 'man' > (La Flesche), so a ni'kkagahi would be a "leader of men". But > perhaps > it was even better than that in Ponka, meaning, perhaps, > specifically > a young man of a good family, or the son of a chief. Or perhaps the > preceding ha combined with ni'kka to produce this meaning. Either > way, > I would guess the meaning as approximately > > Ha-ni'kka bdhiN, es^e' dhoN > "I am the heir-of-a-chief (?)", you said formerly. > > A-cha-tho The only thing I can think of here is that the ch is being > used for [t?], which could give us at?a' or at?e', 'I die', for the > first > part of that. > > > > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho > > The Shke-ma here should probably be s^ki'-(a)ma or s^kiN'-(a)ma. > To take one last shot at reading it in OP, I would try > > MoNc^Hu', s^ki' ama', ikHa'ge moNdhiN, es^e' dhoN(s^ti). > > Bear, you came back, it is said, he goes as a friend, you said > formerly. > > Beyond that, I would have to trust the Ponka elders and appeal to > the > Dakotanists on the list for help on "Shke-ma". > > I'd also like to note that the "yo he ye oi" and "yo he ye ya" > series > listed look a lot like the other ones, though they can't have the > meaning > here that I was attributing to them there. Hence, Tom's claim that > they > are semantically meaningless vocables is favored over my suggestion > that > they were stylized sentence endings. > > Rory > > > > > > > Jonathan Holmes > > > oo.com> > To > Sent by: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > owner-siouan at list > cc > s.colorado.edu > > > Subject > Re: Meaning of Siouan word > > 03/11/2005 04:41 "Shke-ma." > > PM > > > > > > Please respond to > > siouan at lists.colo > > rado.edu > > > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great > deal on > the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation > using > the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to > the > name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same > individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was > captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that > the > Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we > still > theorize as to it's possible meaning? > Jonathan > > > > Written Transcription of Ponca Song: > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the > > > A-cha-tho, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi > > > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho > > > A-cha-tho, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya > > > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > > Commentary: > > > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ‘I’m going to be a chief’. Let me > give you the > story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive > among > the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then > he’d be > missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive > among the > Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he’d go back to the Sioux. One > time when > the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next > time the > Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, > and when > they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ‘When I get > back to the > Siouxs, if you’ll pity me, spare my life.’ He said, ‘When I get > back to the > Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the > council > of chiefs.’ But the Ponca didn’t spare his life, they killed > him. The song > goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that’s his name, but we don’t > know what it > means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ‘you said he was my > frien! d’. > A-cha-tho, that’s a Siouan word which we can’t translate. I > shay, ‘that’s > what you said,’ ‘that you were my friend,’ meaning that after > he professed > friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the > Poncas > and they captured him. That’s how the song was made, for > that man." > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > > > > > > From tmleonard at cox.net Sun Mar 13 16:36:56 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:36:56 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: > >>ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will > be / you said (as given by T. Leonard) > > Ths is certainly likely to be 'bthe' 'I go' or 'I become.' It is used > as an inchoative auxiliary as well as a main verb in modern Omaha. > There's no need to reconstruct or posit it as bdhiN 'I am.' I agree with this. It is certainly "bthe" - to become. In the recording it is rendered as "btha". "Bthe" followed by "ta" (indicating future) often drops to "btha" (e---> a). "ta ni'ke" was dropped to fit the melody. That's fairly common in older songs. > > Also in > >>I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, 'you said he was my friend!' > (in original and R. Larson posting) > > the 'ma' is likely the progressive auxiliary 'ama' and not a particle > based on moNthiN or a causative. > I agree with this also. In the recording it is rendered as "i-kHa-gya-ma". The majority of the time this ends up being "i'kHage ama". In this case, it could be "(w)i'kHage ama", the (w) being abbreviated in the song. This is similar to "nu'da hi ama" (roughly, "those returning from war") being rendered as "nu'da ya'ma" (e + a or i + a -----> ya). This is found in many songs. I have the whole song this way (without melody vocables): As sung: ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e a's^oN tho i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' ikHa'gya ma i'^se a's^tho i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e Sung: ha ni'kka btha i's^e Spoken: ha ni'kka bthe ta ni'ke egi's^e Translation: ha ni'kka - chief or commander / bthe - to become / ta ni'ke - 2nd person future/ egi's^e -you said Free Translation: You said you will become chief Sung: MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' ikHa'gya ma i'^se Spoken: MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' wi'kHage ama egi'^se Translation: MoNc^Hu - grizzly bear / s^ki'ma - no translation; said to actually be nitta (ears) / wi'kHage - my friend or i'kHage - friend; likely to be wi'kHage / ama - auxiliary; denoting single person in motion or plural subject / egi'^se - you said Free Translation: Bear Ears, my friend, you said Sung: a's^oN tho i's^e Spoken: s^oN tho egi's^e Translation: s^oN tho - in a little while or in a short time / egi's^e - you said Free Translation: In a little while, you said I'd like to point out that the in the referrenced transcript the performers often say "we don't know the meaning of that word" or "I can't translate that". That doesn't mean that there isn't a translation. It can sometimes mean "I don't know how to translate that into English" - or - "It's too difficult to translate" -or- "I don't know how to say it". English was not their first language. I've run into this a lot. One word in Ponca can translate into an entire concept in English requiring a lot of explanation. Unless the performer and/or the transcriber wants to delve into the details, it often gets passed over. In this particular case, the emphahsis was on songs and a rough translation (for non-Indians), not linguistic details. This transcript has very general and loose translations. Also, I should point out, these songs being discussed are "war dance songs", commonly used at powwows. They are typically discussed quite openly. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 16:46:52 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: Articles and Existentials with Ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I don´t know about Omaha-Ponca, but in Osage the counterparts of these sentences can be explained as noted after asterisks below****. Carolyn Q. Existentials by Making Verb of Noun JOD 396.10 kkaN'za=i= the ha K PL EVID DEC 'they are (apparently) Kansas' *****(they are present and still) JOD 1890:456.5 wa?u= i ha woman PL DEC 'they are women' Simple Examples of Singular/Plural (Animate Proximate) Articles umaN'haN=akha O the sg ****(the Omaha person is present and still) umaN'haN=ama O the pl *******(the Omaha person or persons are absent, or are present but moving) Use of "Singular" Article with Plural Reference JOD 1890:399.7 umaN'haN=akha j^u'ba O the sg some 'a few Omaha*s*' *****(they are present and still) JOD 1890:426.12 umaN'haN=akha= tta=dhis^aN bdhe O the sg to drawing I go 'I go toward those who are Omaha' ******(they are present and still) JOD 1890:437.3, 1890:748.5 umaN'haN=akha O the sg 'the Omaha*s*' ******(they are present and still) Use of Doubled Articles In Identifications JOD 1890:396.12 umaN'haN=am= ama O the pl 'they were Omahas moving' ******(they were moving) Use of =e Cleft in Identification JOD 1890:666.4 ppaN'kka=akh= e P the sg it is 'it is the Ponca' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:63.11 is^tiniNkhe=akh= e akha I the sg it is 'Ishtinike is the one' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:101.32 mi'kkase=akh=e C the it is 'it is the Coyote' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:79.10 aN'phaN=am= e elk the pl it is 'it was elk' (?) *****(present and moving) Use of a Single Article (Progressive Verb?) in Identification JOD 1890:456.4 ni'kkas^iNga=ama ha person the pl DEC 'they are persons who are moving' *****(present and moving) In summary, based on the Omaha-Ponca texts, the most likely reading for kkoNze=akha (ha) is 'they are (a specified quanitity of, by default all?) the Kansas'. The most likely reading of kkoNze=akh=e would be 'it is (a specified number, by default all?) the Kansa (who)'. From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Tue Mar 15 01:05:15 2005 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:05:15 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Was these river names in Iowa discussed previously? Does anyone want to offer some tentative translations? ----- Original Message ----- From: George W. Garvin To: jggoodtracks at juno.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages What I was looking for is a number of translations, for example Nodaway, what does it mean? and also Nishnabota, these two word are listed as Rivers. And the word Nodaway, we use that in a song in one of our ceremonies, and it doesn't make sense, so I can't translate that particular song. George Garvin Repatriations Researcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Mar 15 18:43:17 2005 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:17 EST Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: The name Nodaway looks like it derives from a reflex in one or another Algonquian language of Proto-Algonquian *na:tawe:wa 'massasauga', the source of the name Nottoway for the Northern Iroquoian people of southeastern Virginia. Frank Siebert did an article on the word in the Winter 1996 issue of Anthropological Linguistics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 16 14:56:42 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:56:42 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <1c4.241fab8c.2f6886c5@aol.com> Message-ID: Members: Iowa Place Names of Indian Origin By Virgil J. Vogel (he passed on a few years ago) University of Iowa Press, Iowa City 1983 Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) Na;to;we. John Kootz has more on this on his website. Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe Later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 16 15:09:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:09:23 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: > Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) > Na;to;we. John Kootz has > more on this on his website. > > Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe The only thing I can add to Louis' contribution is the observation that 'natowe' is also the basis of the variously-spelled 'nadowessiwa', the origin of the English word 'Sioux'. For many years it was assumed to refer to snakes in an Algonquian language, but more recently was shown to mean 'those who speak a different language' -- I think by Ives Goddard. (This may be what's on John's web site. I haven't had time to check.) So Vogel may have had it right or he might have been repeating an erronious legendary account. Bob From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 17:21:11 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:21:11 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous snakes." 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the French Canadian rendering of it was spelled Nadou�ssioux. Jonathan "R. Rankin" wrote: > Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) > Na;to;we. John Kootz has > more on this on his website. > > Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe The only thing I can add to Louis' contribution is the observation that 'natowe' is also the basis of the variously-spelled 'nadowessiwa', the origin of the English word 'Sioux'. For many years it was assumed to refer to snakes in an Algonquian language, but more recently was shown to mean 'those who speak a different language' -- I think by Ives Goddard. (This may be what's on John's web site. I haven't had time to check.) So Vogel may have had it right or he might have been repeating an erronious legendary account. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 18:22:07 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:22:07 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <20050316143302.A8F2E310E68@mail.littlehoop.cc> Message-ID: Concerning the meaning of Nodaway, and Nishnabotna, I have read the following meanings ascribed to them: 1. Nodaway is a Potawatomi word meaning "placid," or "tranquil," or "peaceful." 2. Nishnabotna is an Otoe word meaning "creek where they make boats." I have also seen some texts refer to Nodaway meaning "fordable," and Nishnabotna meaning "not fordable" or "crossed with a canoe," but no tribal origin was assigned to the meanings. I hope this may help in some way. Jonathan Louis Garcia wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Members: Iowa Place Names of Indian Origin By Virgil J. Vogel (he passed on a few years ago) University of Iowa Press, Iowa City 1983 Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) Na;to;we. John Kootz has more on this on his website. Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe Later, LouieG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 16 19:58:41 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:58:41 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadouéssioux. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 20:10:31 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:10:31 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. dave -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadouéssioux. From demallie at indiana.edu Wed Mar 16 20:33:27 2005 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie, Raymond J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. Ray DeMallie -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. dave -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadouéssioux. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 21:05:19 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:05:19 -0800 Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Sorry about that -- should have looked closer. :-( Actually, I'm not a Siouanist, but I pay attention to the Handbook all the time! Dave > As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux > synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to > see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. > > Ray DeMallie > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these > terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the > synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. > > dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: "R. Rankin" > Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent > work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories > (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of > which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly > untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a > different language." Apparently the two words are > somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the > best discussion: > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux > > Bob > >>I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: >> >> 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of >> the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous >> snakes." >> >> 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated >> Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe >> meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the >> French Canadian rendering of it was spelled >> Nadouéssioux. > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 17 00:19:49 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:19:49 -0600 Subject: Sioux. Message-ID: So is the analysis of the name Sioux as a variant of 'those who speak a different language' Doug's or is it based on some earlier analysis? Lots of linguists were consulted about the Plains Volume synonymy including myself, on numerous occasions (I contributed nothing on the name Sioux, however). My understanding was that the reanalysis originated with Ives, but maybe I was wrong. Bob From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Mar 18 22:58:59 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:58:59 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Some attention!? The Plains volumes are invaluable. If no one has yet said thank-you for your efforts, then: Thank you! Mary At 02:33 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux >synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to >see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. > >Ray DeMallie > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa >Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > >Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these >terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the >synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. > >dave > >-----Original Message----- >From: "R. Rankin" >Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > >Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent >work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories >(widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of >which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly >untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a >different language." Apparently the two words are >somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the >best discussion: >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux > >Bob > > >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > > snakes." > > > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > > Nadouéssioux. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 08:20:41 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:20:41 -0700 Subject: Sioux. In-Reply-To: <002c01c52a87$091c0530$2fb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, R. Rankin wrote: > So is the analysis of the name Sioux as a variant of 'those who speak a > different language' Doug's or is it based on some earlier analysis? > Lots of linguists were consulted about the Plains Volume synonymy > including myself, on numerous occasions (I contributed nothing on the > name Sioux, however). My understanding was that the reanalysis > originated with Ives, but maybe I was wrong. Doug's synonymy (2001, HBNAI 13:749-760) seems to espouse the etymology in terms of a medial *-aatowee- 'speak a (foreign) language' and attributes it to Pentland 1979, an article in the Calgary Working Papers in Linguistics and Goddard 1984, an article on Native North American Ethnonymy. I first encountered the claim in an article by Fenton (1978, HBNAI 15:320-321), though probably Pentland and/or Goddard are the source behind that. However, Doug also mentions Siebert's 1996 etymology in terms of a term for 'massasuga' (a kind of rattler) as an alternative. At a guess, this reference was added in revision, and the absence of further discussion reflects an uncertainty as to which analysis to favor, given the division within the Algonquian field. Certainly that's the position I find myself in! The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, and quite a tour de force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives Goddard that would be a natural accident, as many of the preceeding HBNAI synonymies have been compiled by him, albeit with assistance from numerous experts and, I believe, a small, but select body of student researchers at the SI. The HBNAI synonymies represent enormous scholarly labor. I think the only person on the list who has been notably guilty of not consulting HBNAI 13 when appropriate has been myself. This has been mostly because I haven't been as able to purchase expensive references lately. (Not that the HBNAI is unreasonably expensive. Actually, it's a real bargain, given its huge size and the limited market.) Anyway, I do now have a copy, and I will try to do better. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 08:26:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:26:19 -0700 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050318165656.01f7ede0@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Marino wrote: > Some attention!? The Plains volumes are invaluable. If no one has yet > said thank-you for your efforts, then: > > Thank you! > > Mary Motion seconded! Again, really, I think the main neglector has been myself, and I have certainly had this pointed out to me by several different people. In my defense I can only plead my usual slapdash tendencies combined with a certain post-separative impecuniarity. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:27:44 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:27:44 -0700 Subject: Nishnabotna (Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages) In-Reply-To: <007501c528fc$30dc9800$db640945@JIMM> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Jimm GoodTracks forwarded: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George W. Garvin > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:51 AM > Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > What I was looking for is a number of translations, for example Nodaway, > what does it mean? and also Nishnabota, these two word are listed as > Rivers. And the word Nodaway, we use that in a song in one of our > ceremonies, and it doesn't make sense, so I can't translate that > particular song. George Garvin Repatriations Researcher I think Nodaway has been dealt with reasonably so far in response to Jimm's query. It's presumably a transfer of an eastern name like Nottoway, or perhaps a reference to the Dakotas under the Nadoues(sioux). Historically Sioux is from the diminutivized form of Nadoue (~ Nottoway, Nodaway, etc.), and this base form is used for the Iroquois, but I've noticed that Rich Rhodes' Odawa Dictionary has the historical pattern reversed, and perhaps it was never as absolute as we've understood it to have been. For a perhaps comparable transfer consider Oneota (< Iroquoian Oneonta), the original name of the Iowa River (if I recall correctly). As far as the Nishnabotna, Bob and I worried over this for a long time in connection with, I think, an edition of the Lewis & Clark journals. The best we could do at the time was the "version of Anishinabe" explanation that Louis Garcia mentioned. Subsequently I noticed that the LaFlesche Osage dictionary has an entry (1930:107) for ni-hni'-bo-shta 'two springs not far from each other, one clear and sweet, the other black and bitter. A strange feature in connection with these springs was that there was a oeculiar movement that caused the Indians to call them shooting springs. This was the first camp on the second buffalo trail.' I have no idea if this Osage placename is connected with Nishnabotna, but it seems clearly to me to illustrate a Dhegiha stream name of a pattern that would explain a form like Nishnabotna. Ni-hni-bo-shta would represent something like Osage niN-s^niN' po'=s^ta. The spelling hni reflects Omaha-Ponca treatment of s^niN in LaFlesche's generation. The first part niNs^niN is literally niN 'water' plus s^niN 'cold', but means '(a) spring'. The second part, po'=s^ta, is not included in the LaFlesche dictionary, but consits of po= 'by shooting' (which LaFlesche alludes to in his definition), cf. OP mu= 'by shooting', plus -s^ta, an instrumental root of uncertain meaning, perhaps 'remain', cf. -s^tE in OP. Maybe it's really shtaN, again, meaning uncertain, but perhaps 'to release', cf. -s^taN in OP. Anyway, po'=s^ta clearly refers to the 'shooting' or 'errupting' character of the spring. I think that the similarity of niNs^niNpos^ta to Nishnabotna is obvious. The only significant change is from s^ta to tna, which we can put down to "corruption," i.e., confused transmission in borrowing, or perhaps to the source not actually being this precise Osage form, but something similar in another language. For example, per Jimm GoodTracks's Ioway-Otoe-Missouria dictionary, IO has iNriN=xj^i 'spring' (i.e., water-cold + very). It seems to me that a spelling like -tna could reflect a root like -s^na(N) (-hna(N)) or -na(N) or ta(N) with essentially the same meaning as -s^ta(N), opening up possibilities in IO and other Dhegiha languages. So, for Nishnabotna I would tentatively offer 'shooting (or spouting, spurting) spring' (< Osage?) as a gloss, with details uncertain. It doesn't seem like Omaha-Ponca is involved, since it has mu= for the 'by shooting' instrumental. Also, the only form for 'spring' in OP that I know of is niNhaNga < niN 'water' + haNga 'leader'. Probably here the sense of haNga is closer to Proto-Siouan *huNka 'parent, ancestor, original' as in some other Siouan languages. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:30:27 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:30:27 -0700 Subject: Sioux. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, and quite a tour de > force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives Goddard ... My apologies - it was David Costa, not Bob Rankin, who made the slip. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:53:11 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:53:11 -0700 Subject: Nishnabotna Message-ID: We've discussed Nishnabotna before: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=nishnabotna&s=&f=&a=&b= From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 26 15:00:10 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:00:10 -0600 Subject: Sioux. Message-ID: >> The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, >> and quite a tour de >> force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives >> Goddard ... > My apologies - it was David Costa, not Bob Rankin, > who made the slip. I wasn't talking about the Handbook treatment, but I did mention Ives as a source of the "another language" analysis. The reason is that this is a topic I've discussed a couple of times over the years with Ives personally. I do know that Doug Parks was extremely conscientious in consulting a variety of scholars over a multiyear period about the synonymy in the Plains Volume, so the Handbook article is probably the definitive statement on the matter. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 26 16:52:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:52:25 -0600 Subject: Free font editing program on your computer. Message-ID: Here is another one of those things that probably nearly everybody but me already knew but a few might find helpful. If you have Windows 2000 or XP and have installed "Service Pack 2" there is a free font editor program included that will enable you to modify already existing characters or create new characters for any or all of your true type font sets. This is very handy for special phonetic characters. Microsoft has hidden this program well and I happened on it by accident while researching various font problems in the Word Help file. It was probably included as an afterthought and information about it is not completely incorporated in the Search mechanism of the Help file. You can find it and create a shortcut to it by clicking on START, then SEARCH "all files and folders" and typing the file name in the search box. It is called EUDCEDIT.EXE It will bring up a grid on-screen that you can use for whatever character you choose. Windows automatically fills out the pixelated outline you produce to make a well-formed new or modified character. Since it produces "True Type" output, I assume whatever you make will print out OK too, but I have not tried printing yet. Bob From warr0120 at umn.edu Mon Mar 28 17:00:43 2005 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:00:43 -0600 Subject: Free font editing program on your computer. In-Reply-To: <000901c53224$31174ff0$08b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: That's a real nice find! The program is called "Private Character Editor". If anyone has trouble locating the file (XP or 2000): - go to Start > Run, and type "eudcedit" and the program will load - the file is in the WINDOWS/system32 directory if you want to create a shortcut - or google for eudcedit or "Personal Character Editor" About Private Character Editor and Unicode Private Use Area: The whole "private" thing refers to a sequence of character codes (E000-F8FF - there's a second private use area, but hopefully you don't have that many characters that are missing) that were left open for characters missing from the standard or considered unworthy of being included in the standard (like Klingon). It lets you use Unicode-standard characters mixed with your own characters, no standardization involved. It's not considered the long term solution for missing characters, however. A proposal for characters or a whole writing system should be submitted to Unicode to really deal with the issue. And such a proposal might be a good idea for Siouan languages (I'm thinking of digitzed Dorsey - what a mess!). Another very useful program, which should help eliminate the need for all those remapping fonts that everybody keep creating (displaying an 'a' as something else, but the code is still for an a, like with Wingdings where 'a' appears as the zodiac sign Cancer), is Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator (MKLC): http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/outreach/dnloads/msklc.mspx (You also have to have the .NET framework installed from Microsoft: http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/downloads/updates/default.aspx) It's for creating new keyboard layouts that you can install into XP (it creates a Microsoft installer program you can then share with anyone), just like installing any language's existing keyboard (Russian, German, Greek, etc.). If you have a decent Unicode font, and your character is in it, put it in a keyboard layout. I have a Dakota keyboard I use, which is similar to the English International layout. The apostrophe key is a "dead key". So if you hit apostrophe + another key you get special Unicode character, for example: apostrophe + space = apostrophe apostrophe + a = a with acute accent (á = 00E1) apostrophe + s = s with acute accent (ś = 015B) apostrophe + g = g with a dot above (ġ = 0121) etc. Not every character I need is there yet (mostly the dots are under when I want them over, but that's close enough for me most of the time, for now - the combining dots don't display well enough in my font), so the Private Character Editor could be useful. But Unicode is getting better all the time, and it's really a good idea to start getting used to Unicode and XML. Overall, this keyboard layout approach is awesome because you're actually storing your data in Unicode, and once the keyboard layout is created, you don't have to remember a hundred different character codes and type six keys every time you want a 'special' character. A huge time/frustration saver. And it actually came from Microsoft! Who knew?! Let me know if you have questions about how to use MKLC. Patrick Warren From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Mar 28 20:42:44 2005 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:42:44 -0600 Subject: Ponca language course Message-ID: Hi, all, Attached is an announcement in the form of a flyer for the Ponca language course that I'll be teaching in June, in case anyone's interested in seeing the course description. (Please note that the course in condensed into one month instead of the usual two for a summer course. I don't know how I'll be able to attend the SACC unless I take a day off and invite the whole class to come with me!) I have to have fifteen people signed up on the first day for the course to fly, so if you know anyone who's interested, please pass the word. Then all I have to do is to teach it! Kathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Summer 2005 course announcement.doc Type: application/msword Size: 26112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mckay020 at umn.edu Mon Mar 28 21:26:44 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:26:44 -0600 Subject: Dakota language In-Reply-To: <004201c533d6$b2711320$9309ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: A while ago, someone had posted an e-mail asking me to help them learn Dakota or something like that. I lost all of my saved e-mail recently. Please e-mail me again. Pidamayaye do. -Cantemaza de miye do. (neil mckay) Dakota Language University of Minnesota From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 21:01:53 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:01:53 -0800 Subject: Biloxi banana Message-ID: Hi all, There is the Biloxi word "haataN tani" glossed as "banana" in Dorsey's dictionary. The "tani" part is "big" I know, but I'm having trouble locating any cognates in other Siouan languages (or Muskogean) for haataN. I just recently found out about the native fruit "pawpaw" and I'm wondering if haataN may be the word for it (especially since pawpaws do look like smaller versions of bananas), thus "haataN tani" = large pawpaw = banana, perhaps? Does anyone have the word for pawpaw in other Siouan languages for comparison? Thanks! Dave --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 29 22:21:19 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:21:19 -0600 Subject: Biloxi banana Message-ID: Well, there shouldn't be cognates for 'banana' since it's an introduced fruit in North America. But Quapaw uses /to z^oNke/ for both 'pawpaw' and the newer 'banana', so they take advantage of the same similarity, but the words are different. Quapaw /to/ refers originally to the 'Indian potato', Dakotan mdo or blo, but the compound is 'pawpaw'. I don't have the separate meaning for /z^oNke/, but one of the Quapaws speculated that it referred to 'sweet'. It is not the normal verb for 'be sweet' however, and I don't have it in other usages. Maybe there's an Omaha /z^oNge/ that someone can identify. I think some of the other Dhegiha dialects may use something like /ttewadhe/ for 'banana', but I'm not sure. It's mentioned in Gilmore's ethnobotany of the northern plains from 1919. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:01 PM Subject: Biloxi banana > Hi all, > > There is the Biloxi word "haataN tani" glossed as > "banana" in Dorsey's dictionary. The "tani" part is > "big" I know, but I'm having trouble locating any > cognates in other Siouan languages (or Muskogean) for > haataN. I just recently found out about the native > fruit "pawpaw" and I'm wondering if haataN may be the > word for it (especially since pawpaws do look like > smaller versions of bananas), thus "haataN tani" = > large pawpaw = banana, perhaps? Does anyone have the > word for pawpaw in other Siouan languages for > comparison? > > Thanks! > > Dave > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 30 03:55:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:55:11 -0600 Subject: followup on 'banana'. Message-ID: > I think some of the other Dhegiha dialects may use > something like /ttewadhe/ for 'banana', but I'm not > sure. It's mentioned in Gilmore's ethnobotany of the > northern plains from 1919. Since I was doing the above from memory, and my memory is slipping these days, I thought I'd better check with Gilmore for the straight dope. The listed Omaha term for 'banana' is "htedhawe" (I had the syllables transposed). There are cognates in: Dakota: Tewape Omaha-Ponca: Tethawe (Gilmore's spelling) Winnebago: Tsherop (and a listed (unrelated) Pawnee term: Tukawiu). All the above are in Gilmore's spellings, which disregard aspiration, etc. The prototype would look something like *hte-ape or *hte-ope, with different intervocalic glides developing in different languages. The term actually refers to the tubers of Nelumbo lutea, the yellow lotus or water chinquapin, which was cooked for food. The Kaws call them 'yonkapins' (spelling phonetically -- the word isn't in my unabridged dictionary of English). The rhizome resembles a banana, thus the Omaha term after bananas were introduced. Oddly, the pawpaw is discussed in neither Gilmore or in the more recent "Edible Wild Plants of the Prairie" by KU's own Kelly Kindscher. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 30 05:57:51 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:57:51 +0200 Subject: banana etc. Message-ID: That's what I know in Lakota: [zizi's^kopela] or just [s^ko'pela] what I'd translate as "little crooked yellow(s)" fr. zi' - yellow s^ko'pa - crooked s^kobya - make crooked (e.g. pa s^kopa - crooked nose) BTW, can anybody tell me what's "olive" in Lakota etc.? (translating a poem, I created wigli kan [wi'gli-kxaN] (fr. kxaNta, which sometimes is seen as a truncated form). Alfred From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Mar 30 17:32:01 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:32:01 -0500 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' Message-ID: I need to correct some information I sent back in November: "I have this in my data for Asb: pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So it appears that the original example was an error. s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u but: s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not perceive wicha as referring to people. Just wanted to set the record straight. Linda From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Mar 30 17:37:58 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:37:58 -0600 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' In-Reply-To: <1112203921.424ae291d206a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: From my perspective and how I speak Dakota, your correction is accurate -Cantemaza de miye do. (neil mckay) Dakota Language Dept. University of Minnesota 612-624-6808 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: >I need to correct some information I sent back in November: > >"I have this in my data for Asb: > >pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" > >I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other >data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above >example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other >sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So >it appears that the original example was an error. > >s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u > >but: > >s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' > >suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' > >Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she >says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of >situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a >different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is >used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not >perceive wicha as referring to people. > > >Just wanted to set the record straight. > >Linda > > > > > > >. > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Mar 30 18:26:22 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:26:22 -0700 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' In-Reply-To: <424AE3F6.20404@umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Linda -- that restores my faith in what I thought I knew. Your speaker was struggling to justify semantically something that has a purely grammatical explanation: there is no room in the verb for two object affixes except in the "transitive stative" forms, and they never use "wicha" as far as I know. Since the wicha-ma sequence is grammatically impossible, the speaker tries to make sense of it when she hears it; that can only happen if another meaning for "wicha" is pressed into service. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, cantemaza wrote: > From my perspective and how I speak Dakota, your correction is accurate > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > (neil mckay) > Dakota Language Dept. > University of Minnesota > 612-624-6808 > > lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > > >I need to correct some information I sent back in November: > > > >"I have this in my data for Asb: > > > >pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" > > > >I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other > >data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above > >example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other > >sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So > >it appears that the original example was an error. > > > >s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u > > > >but: > > > >s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' > > > >suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' > > > >Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she > >says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of > >situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a > >different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is > >used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not > >perceive wicha as referring to people. > > > > > >Just wanted to set the record straight. > > > >Linda > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 31 06:03:50 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:03:50 +0200 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. Message-ID: As far as I had understood this issue, it's the dative structure, i.e. the personal affix pointing to the "receiver": sunkawankan kin mni wicak'u (he gave water to the horses) - right? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 31 14:20:22 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:22 -0700 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. In-Reply-To: <424B92C6.3080308@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: That's the way it works in languages that have datives for recipients. Many languages, like Lakhota, do not use datives for the recipient of the verb 'give': 'give' is syntactically transitive, not ditransitive; only two participants are indexed in the verb, and one of them is the recipient. The so-called accusative or direct object is not an argument. I would not call 'horses' in your example an indirect object in Lakhota -- it's clearly the direct object, from the point of view of the grammar of that language. Lakhota has unambiguous datives marked with -ki-, but this verb doesn't make use of them. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, [ISO-8859-1] "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > As far as I had understood this issue, it's the dative structure, i.e. > the personal affix pointing to the "receiver": > sunkawankan kin mni wicak'u (he gave water to the horses) - right? > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Thu Mar 31 15:22:47 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:22:47 -0800 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Of course I agree with you that Lakhota 'give' only marks two arguments on the verb. But can you explain why you feel the patient (I agree with you that it doesn't seem right to call it either an accusative or a direct object) is not an argument? Is there syntactic evidence that, for example, in a sentence with three nouns ('The chief gave the horse to the woman', or the like) the patient ('horse') behaves syntactically different from 'woman'? Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >Many languages, like Lakhota, do not use datives for the recipient of the >verb 'give': 'give' is syntactically transitive, not ditransitive; only >two participants are indexed in the verb, and one of them is the >recipient. The so-called accusative or direct object is not an argument. > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 16:01:29 2005 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:01:29 -0800 Subject: Oto Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: I'm posting this on behalf of a young man of Oto ancestry who would like to go back to his roots. He is particularly interested in the Oto language. He wants to know if the language is still spoken somewhere, are least rudimentarily, and if there are any revitalization projects. Although Oto is officially extinct, he would appreciate any info or addresses of people he could contact (speakers, specialists at both scholarly and non-scholarly levels). I'd pass any incoming messages on to him. Regina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Mar 5 14:38:54 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:38:54 -0500 Subject: Siouan etymology? In-Reply-To: <40AB75B1.9040508@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Is this ethnonym analyzable in Siouan? "Iskonsogos" "Iskousogos" Recent archaeological evidence for the location of this group suggests that the name could refer to Ohio Valley Siouans. The -konso- is of course attractive as a possible garbling of "kaansa". Thank you, Michael Mccafferty From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 5 15:15:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:15:11 -0600 Subject: Siouan etymology? Message-ID: Hard to say, but it resembles the Spanish ethnonym 'Escansaques' quite a bit. They are supposed by some to have been the Kansa. You can read about this assumption in articles by the late Mildred Mott Wedel and others. Bob > Is this ethnonym analyzable in Siouan? > "Iskonsogos" > "Iskousogos" > Recent archaeological evidence for the location of > this group suggests > that the name could refer to Ohio Valley Siouans. > The -konso- is of course > attractive as a possible garbling of "kaansa". From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Mar 7 18:43:30 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:43:30 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: <003701c52196$210fecf0$19b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: Good catch, Bob! I think Michael has asked about this ethnonym before, maybe on the list, but I don't think anyone ever noticed that resemblance before, which is fairly striking. I remember wondering whether I could analyze escansaques in terms of Dhegiha, but the best I could do was: eskans aques hkaNze akha Kaw the "(it's/they are) the Kaws" I've written hkaNze rather than kkaNze to emphasize the potential for treating a tense stop as a a preaspirate. I don't know the historical distribution of aspiration of (e)s- in Spanish. I would have to assume -e is elided before a- of following akha, a normal pattern of contraction within phrases in Siouan generally, I think, though I think that akha may tend to come out as [kxa] in Kansa, under rules I don't know. Alternatively, the form also looks like it might involve reduplication: is-kouso-kos, is-konso-ko(n)s, which I don't think works in a Siouan context, either as to form or sense. You'd expect *-konsko(n)so, and reduplication is typically for inanimate plurals. Is there anything about the linguistic context of their attestation that explains any of the morphology of the form? Returning to the -akha suggestion, I'm not sure akha, which something like 'the singular animate proximate' is appropriate for the context. I can't remember if I've seen akha as opposed to ama (nominally the plural animate proximate) or ma (animate collective obviative) with ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca. In fact, the simgular/plural glosses here are somewhat arbitrary and off target, as Ardis and Carolyn have suggested but for whatever reasons ama tends to appear with plurals. The "articles" are also the progressive (or continuous?) auxiliaries, of course, and have some existential functions as well. Omaha-Ponca akha and ama also appear in some contexts as akhe and ame, which I take to be akha(a) or am(a) + e in a cleft construction, so perhaps, akh=e is actually a good potential reading here. I don't recall the details of Mildred Mott Wedel's discussions, but I think she was negative or neutral. I wonder about the locations? The historical period Pawnees, Osage, Omahas, Poncas, etc., certainly went fairly far west in buffalo hunts. I don't know the exact routes, though I've seen some maps for Pawnee practice. I don't know to what extent horses were necessary for the later routes, but I think that some prehistorical archaeological materials in eastern Colorado have been suggested as reflecting hunting activities of more easterly Caddoan groups rather than year round residence. I don't remember the details. The Iskousogos are a closed book to me? Where are they supposed to have been? John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Mon Mar 7 20:06:26 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:06:26 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) Message-ID: > eskans aques > hkaNze akha > Kaw the > "(it's/they are) the Kaws" > I've written hkaNze rather than kkaNze to emphasize the potential for treating a tense stop as a a preaspirate. I don't know the historical distribution of aspiration of (e)s- in Spanish. It's very widespread, so I suspect that dialectally it's rather old. It is a characteristic found in Andalucia and Extremadura in Spain and in various places all over Spanish America. There's evidence of it at least since the 17th century. If it was characteristic of early expeditions to the Plains, the pronunciation would have been something like [ehkansaqueh], with the initial e- epenthetic. It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. I can't remember, but it's covered in Mildred Wedel's discussion. Since Osage still has hp, ht, hc, hk for OM, PN, KS and QU pp, tt, (cc), kk, and since Siebert recorded hp, ht, hk in Quapaw in 1941, it seems fair to say that this pronunciation underlies modern pp, tt, kk in all Dhegiha dialects. But exactly when the gemination assimilation occurred is hard to say. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Mar 8 01:56:06 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:56:06 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: <6CFE0AAEA0B7E84A9E6292B3A056A68D164E97@meadowlark2.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > It's very widespread, so I suspect that dialectally it's rather old. It > is a characteristic found in Andalucia and Extremadura in Spain and in > various places all over Spanish America. I think it's considered that most Colonial dialects reflect Andalusian roots, so if it occurred there in the 17th Century it is at least plausible to figure it into this analysis. I know it's found in Argentina. I have a friend from there who once said solemnly in the course of a discussion of Spanish promunication "Yo nunca aspiro" 'I myself never aspirate' pronounced [j^o nuka ahpiro]. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. I'm not sure it wasn't [lo? extao? unio?]. It was a long time ago, and before I had taken any linguistics courses, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak Spanish quite like that since though I've run into a few Chilenos. > There's evidence of it at least since the 17th century. If it was > characteristic of early expeditions to the Plains, the pronunciation > would have been something like [ehkansaqueh], with the initial e- > epenthetic. If /hk/ was heard and rendered as "sc" it would get the initial epenthetic e (prothetic e?) automatically. > It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. I'll look this up. A quick check suggests that escansaques figures on the web entirely in the context of a foregone conclusion that it is a synonym of Kansa. One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 8 15:07:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:07:14 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos and ahpiracion de la S. Message-ID: > I know it's found in Argentina. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. All over the 'southern cone' of SA as well as circum-Caribbean and most coastal areas. Very widespread. In most areas it's also a 'marker', in the Labovian sense, of male speech, which tends to discourage hypercorrection. > One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. Onate may be right. It's one of the early Span expeditions to the interior plains of NA. Bob From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Tue Mar 8 15:30:48 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:30:48 +0000 Subject: Iskousogos and ahpiracion de la S. Message-ID: It also occurred (and maybe still occurs) in Philippine Spanish speech; the story goes that when the US warship that signalled the transfer of power from Spain to the US came into Subiic Bay, the secretray to the viceroy exclaimed "Sen~or, loh americanoh ehtan aqui". The indigenous peoples of the Philippines were customarly referred to as indios (Indians) in Spanish colonial sources, by the way. Philippine Spanish was basically Mexican Spanish, complete with the Nahuatl loan element (ZACATE for 'grass', etc) but that's another story. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 08/03/2005 15:07:14 >>> > I know it's found in Argentina. And in Chile, since an exchange student from there once told an astounded Spanish class I was in that he was pleased to be here in loh ehtaoh unioh. All over the 'southern cone' of SA as well as circum-Caribbean and most coastal areas. Very widespread. In most areas it's also a 'marker', in the Labovian sense, of male speech, which tends to discourage hypercorrection. > One reference did attribute it to the Onate Expedition of 1601, though I'm not positive that's right. Onate may be right. It's one of the early Span expeditions to the interior plains of NA. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 9 05:01:51 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:01:51 -0700 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > If /hk/ was heard and rendered as "sc" it would get the initial epenthetic > e (prothetic e?) automatically. {All references are from the Handbook of North American Indians series.) It appears that the Iskousogos were on the Ohio, below the falls at Louisville and were reported to LaSalle at Montreal in 1688 by some visiting Iroquois (Hunter 1978 15:588). It's probably fair to note that "isk" to transcribe hk doesn't make as much sense in French terms as it does for Spanish. > > It may actually be from the Coronado expedition. (Bob speaking) > > I'll look this up. ... (various not very helpful remarks from me) Per Parks (2001 13.2:965) "in 1601, Juan de On~ate visited a village consting of skin-covered tents placed in a circle, estimated at 5000 inhabitants, whom the Spaniards called Escanjaque (refs). A Tonkawa captive in the village, taken by the Spainards to Mexico City, drew a map that depicted 8 villages of the Escanjaque, who lived scattered along both sides of a river. He called them Aguacane, apparently the native name of this people (refs)." Parks rejects rejects Apache and Tonkawa identifications based on the inability of an Apache scout to speak with the Escanjaque and on the Tonkawa captive. Since the apparent location was in the North Canadian valley in Oklahoma near present Watonga, he also rejects a Kansa or Osage identification. He suggests Aguacane resembles Aucanis, connected with the Iscani, while Escanjaque resembles Iskani. The Iskani were later subsumed within the Wichita. Parks reports variants Escansaques, Extcanjaque, Escanxaques and Estanxaques. I believe in this period there would be a good chance that j would represent z^ (zh) and x represent s^ (sh). So, though the business of camping in a circle in skin tents certainly sounds more Siouan, and certainly more Dhegiha-like, than Caddoan, there are problems with a Dhegiha association, and there are serious problems in dating and location with associating the Iskousogos and Escansaques. There are some archaeologists who argue that the Kansa evolved in place in Kansas from Woodland predecessors, and they would have an easier time with the Escansaques as Kansa, but that approach eliminates the Iskousogos conneciton. And I doubt any Siouanist would be comfortable with this endemic approach, unless they were willing to derive the Kansa elements throughout Dhegiha from pre-Siouan people in the area. But, KkoNze 'Kansa' is a nearly universal Dhegiha clan name and, if lacking any clear meaning, it is in reasonably even canonically Siouan form. A very small minority of non-archaeologists largely ignorant of contact period ethnography (mainly me) suspect all the Dhegiha groups of being Oneota groups from somewhere in the general area of southern Minnesota and northern Iowa, arriving in the historical Dhegiha localities from c. 1450 or so on - later on further south, of course. This small minority group wouldn't be too surprised to find a village of Dhegiha-speakers hunting in the general area in which the Escanjaque were found in 1601, and engaged in hostilities with a wichita village 15 days away, but permanent residence sounds unlikely. Pondering Aquacane - Awakane (?) or perhaps AwakaniN (?) - in terms of Dhegiha doesn't bring anything to mind, though a'k?a is 'south wind' and the Kansa are sometimes called 'the people of the south wind'. The rest is nice and Siouan in form, but doesn't seem to combine usefully. Note that though Osage and Kaw have a number of superficial phonetic differences, they are rather similar grammatically, and in other phonetic ways, and are probably not very deeply diverged from each other. Kaw might be a very independent village of a combined Kaw-Osage population at some not very deep remove - a century or two? Maybe less. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Mar 9 05:46:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:46:47 -0700 Subject: Articles and Existentials with Ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: A linguistic follow up on "KkoNze=akha" Existentials by Making Verb of Noun JOD 396.10 kkaN'za=i= the ha K PL EVID DEC 'they are (apparently) Kansas' JOD 1890:456.5 wa?u= i ha woman PL DEC 'they are women' Simple Examples of Singular/Plural (Animate Proximate) Articles umaN'haN=akha O the sg umaN'haN=ama O the pl Use of "Singular" Article with Plural Reference JOD 1890:399.7 umaN'haN=akha j^u'ba O the sg some 'a few Omaha*s*' JOD 1890:426.12 umaN'haN=akha= tta=dhis^aN bdhe O the sg to drawing I go 'I go toward those who are Omaha' JOD 1890:437.3, 1890:748.5 umaN'haN=akha O the sg 'the Omaha*s*' Use of Doubled Articles In Identifications JOD 1890:396.12 umaN'haN=am= ama O the pl 'they were Omahas moving' Use of =e Cleft in Identification JOD 1890:666.4 ppaN'kka=akh= e P the sg it is 'it is the Ponca' JOD 1890:63.11 is^tiniNkhe=akh= e akha I the sg it is 'Ishtinike is the one' JOD 1890:101.32 mi'kkase=akh=e C the it is 'it is the Coyote' JOD 1890:79.10 aN'phaN=am= e elk the pl it is 'it was elk' (?) Use of a Single Article (Progressive Verb?) in Identification JOD 1890:456.4 ni'kkas^iNga=ama ha person the pl DEC 'they are persons who are moving' In summary, based on the Omaha-Ponca texts, the most likely reading for kkoNze=akha (ha) is 'they are (a specified quanitity of, by default all?) the Kansas'. The most likely reading of kkoNze=akh=e would be 'it is (a specified number, by default all?) the Kansa (who)'. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 16:07:41 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:07:41 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: Howdy, I realize it is difficult to translate Siouan words from songs, but I have a question concerning the possible meaning or translation of an Omaha-Ponca or Siouan word which may be written as "shke-ma." The word was written in a transcription of Ponca songs sung and translated by Ponca singers Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown in 1967. The quote and it's source is listed below. Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide. Jonathan Holmes "MoN-chu Shke-ma, that?s a Siouan name. We don?t know what it means. The only part we know is MoN-chu, that means (Grizzly) Bear. Our language is similar. Don?t know if it?s Spotted Bear or Black Bear, it?s a Siouan name. When this man arrived on the scene of the battle, this Sioux ran away." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 24) Warrior, Sylvester and Lamont Brown. 1967. Ponca Songs Sung and Translated. Recorded by Tyronne H. Stewart, in October of 1967 at Oklahoma City, OK. Transcribed by Earl C. Fenner and Jon Orens. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Mar 9 17:43:18 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:43:18 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050309160741.16371.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan wrote: > Howdy, > I realize it is difficult to translate Siouan words from songs, but I have a question concerning the possible meaning or translation of an Omaha-Ponca or Siouan word which may be written as "shke-ma." The word was written in a transcription of Ponca songs sung and translated by Ponca singers Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown in 1967. The quote and it's source is listed below. Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide. Jonathan Holmes > "MoN-chu Shke-ma, that?s a Siouan name. We don?t know what it means. The only part we know is MoN-chu, that means (Grizzly) Bear. Our language is similar. Don?t know if it?s Spotted Bear or Black Bear, it?s a Siouan name. When this man arrived on the scene of the battle, this Sioux ran away." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 24) It seems that the root /s^ke/ has to do with tying or untying (Swetland 1991 "UmoN'hoN iye of Elizabeth Stabler":173, 181,276,285 dhis^ke' - 'to untie', ukki'gdhas^ke - 'to tie'; 'to hook'; Quintero 2004 "Osage Grammar": 29 kaas^ke' - 'tie [e.g., shoes]'). The -ma is probably the pluralizing positional -ma or ama'. The /s^ke/ root always seems to take an instrumental prefix, though. It may not be able to stand by itself. And if it does have this meaning, we would be left with something like "The Bound (or Loosed) (plural/moving) Grizzly Bear", which seems a little odd for a name. Another possibility is that the vowel in "shke" was misunderstood, perhaps in being slurred with the following "a-" in "ama'". /s^kaN/ is a pretty common root meaning "moving", and it can stand alone. In that case, we would have something like "The Moving Grizzly Bear(s)", which would fit the sense of that following -(a)ma' very well. It might even be possible that the "shke" is a slurred reduction of an original s^kaN'dhe, which would mean "cause to move". In that case, we would have: "Grizzly Bears Caused to Move". This could tie in to the hi'gaN of "How Rabbit Killed the Black Bears", which I believe includes a line by the Bear asking "Who is going to cause me to move? (s^kaN'aNdhe)". My best shots, Rory From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 9 21:49:20 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:49:20 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050309160741.16371.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan: Would you please give the full cite for "Ponca Songs Sung and Translated". I would like to order or view a copy. Jon Orens MD show me mimeographed texts 40 years ago. I met Lamont Brown once at a pow-wow. Later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 03:17:55 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:17:55 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: I'd like to chime in on this one. The "Siouan Name" on the recording Jonathan referred to is MaH'chu shkii ma - not shke (that is, it is a long "e" sound in English, as in tipi or tea). I've also heard the same song by other singers wherein the word was pronounced "shti'ma". I've never secured a full translation of the word. However, after playing the Stewart recording for some elderly Ponca men, their response was "they're not sayin that right", etc., etc. I, too, would be interested in any feedback on this one. But, I'm certain the vowel is "i" (as in "wi" or "ni") and not "e" (as in "pe'de"). Thanks, TML -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 17:42:51 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:42:51 -0600 Subject: More on the meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: A nice person just mentioned that, in my last post, I did not include any alternative translations that may have been offered by the Ponca individuals that said "MaH'chu shki'ma" wasn't correct. Sorry about that. When I did inquire about the song and word in question, I had one elder say the word should be "MaH'chu hi'ma" (Bear Teeth) and another tell me the word was "Ma'chu ni'ta" (Bear Ear). I've never found a reference to "MaH'chu hi'ma" (Bear Teeth) as a Ponca name. However, "MaH'chu ni'ta" (Bear Ear) was the name of a Ponca man born in 1808; he is listed on the 1861 and 1890 Ponca census rolls. That would place this individual in a time when fighting between the Sioux and Ponca was heating up and during the time when many of the songs on the Stewart tape were composed. This is all anecdotal at best. We don't know if the individual singers on the Stewart recording learned the song "incorrectly", or learned it from someone that "didn't have it quite right", or the meaning of their rendering was "correct" with a translation lost in antiquity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 18:13:22 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:13:22 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Louie, The exact transcription on page 24 is: L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA ______________________________________________________ SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. THE ONLY PART WE KNOW IS MOnCHU, THAT MEANS BEAR -- OUR LANGUAGE IS SIMILAR -- DONT KNOW IF ITS SPOTTED BEAR, OR BLACK BEAR -- SIOUAN NAME. WHEN THIS MAN ARRIVED ON THE SCENE OF THE BATTLE, THIS SIOUX (MOnCHU SHKEMA) RAN AWAY. SHUPIDE - WHEN I COME MATO - BEAR IN SIOUAN DIALECTS - DAKOTA I do not know if this has been "published" as a complete work. I have a Xeroxed copy that was given to me years ago. I hope this helps. Jonathan Louis Garcia wrote: Jonathan: Would you please give the full cite for ?Ponca Songs Sung and Translated?. I would like to order or view a copy. Jon Orens MD show me mimeographed texts 40 years ago. I met Lamont Brown once at a pow-wow. Later, LouieG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Mar 10 19:29:37 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:29:37 -0500 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) Message-ID: I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". Any comments? Thank you. ============================== Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Thu Mar 10 20:07:02 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:07:02 -0800 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been following this very closely, but I don't know what led someone to think of -g- as an Iroquoian plural. Wally > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 20:46:57 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:46:57 -0800 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was wondering this myself. As far as I know in Cherokee, de- or te- is inanimate plural suffix and ani- animate plural, such as te-tlukv (trees) and ani-asgaya (men, people). Not sure how this compares to Mohawk, Seneca, and its other cousins farther north. Dave Wallace Chafe wrote: I haven't been following this very closely, but I don't know what led someone to think of -g- as an Iroquoian plural. Wally > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the southern Plains? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 10 21:28:46 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:28:46 -0600 Subject: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) Message-ID: I think -k, -ok, -ak and sundry variants spelled with -g are the Algonquian animate proximate plural -- not Iroquoian. The inanimate plural is -a and is homophonous with the obviative singular. I'm afraid I have no more to contribute on this name. If the Escansaques and Iskou/nsogos were contemporaneously in both the Ohio Valley and central KS and environs, then equating the two is probably unrealistic, but JEK already pointed that out. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Iskousogos (Re: Siouan etymology?) (fwd) > > I received this from an archaeologist on this matter > of "Iskousogos". > Any comments? Thank you. > > ============================== > > Couple things here of possible relevance. First is > that I think that > there is a very good chance that what most have read > as IskoUsogos in the > original (handwritten, of course) document (Gallinee) > is in fact > IskoNsogos (have you every seen the original? I > haven't). And if it is > actually Iskonsogos then the resemblance to > Escansaques is even more > striking. But a fly in the ointment is that I've > always assumed that the > -g- in I(s)konsogos was the Iroqouis plural (and > the -s- of course French > plural), and if the -g- was added by the Iroquois, > then what is it doing > showing up (as -q- in Escansaques) out in the > southern Plains? > > > > > From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Thu Mar 10 21:45:23 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:45:23 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050310181322.93619.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom: I think you must be referring to a recording of the songs. Evidently there is a companion booklet with the words. I thought you were referring to a book. Where can I purchase this recording? Later, Louie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Mar 10 22:59:45 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:59:45 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050310181322.93619.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tom - Thanks for pointing out that the "e" in "Shke-ma" is pronounced [i]. That shoots down all three of the ideas I posted the other day. Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, the repeated line should initially be transcribed as s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we would have s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With this interpretation, the sentence comes out as s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma or ama'. Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line might read MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where you were, to flee ..." And the sentence would end > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding epenthetic Y. > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does this translation seem at all reasonable? Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Mar 10 23:45:07 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:45:07 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: Louie: The recording you are referring to is of Sylvester Warrior and Lamont Brown, made by Tyrone Stewart in 1965. It's not available commercially. ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Garcia To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Tom: I think you must be referring to a recording of the songs. Evidently there is a companion booklet with the words. I thought you were referring to a book. Where can I purchase this recording? Later, Louie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Mar 11 00:08:31 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:08:31 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: Spoken: S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) When I got to where you were, they were fleeing MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources gave the same or similar translations. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:59 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." > > > > > Tom - Thanks for pointing out that the "e" in "Shke-ma" is > pronounced [i]. That shoots down all three of the ideas I > posted the other day. > > Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints > that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and > Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or > perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, > the repeated line should initially be transcribed as > > s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > > > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. > > s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz > has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened > room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going > toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, > which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; > John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So > > s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". > > -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" > is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the > positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. > It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have > > s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". > > The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". > > The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to > read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency > in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we > would have > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) > > "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above > is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with > epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody > went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, > strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be > the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With > this interpretation, the sentence comes out as > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! > > "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" > > This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct > address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. > This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the > leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the > name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is > Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is > to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable > OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean > "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma > or ama'. > > Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are > they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, > or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was > put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be > referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed > recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have > constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the > leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be > able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known > to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line > might read > > MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... > > "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where > you were, to flee ..." > > And the sentence would end > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? > > "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" > > The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding > epenthetic Y. > > > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] > > Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does > this translation seem at all reasonable? > > Rory > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Mar 11 02:55:28 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:55:28 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <003b01c525ce$75ea30a0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: Tom wrote: > A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: > > Spoken: > S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) > > When I got to where you were, they were fleeing That's reasonable. And if the pronunciation is -de rather than -di, we should probably be reading it as 'but' rather than 'when': "I arrived at where you were, but they had fled." > MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears > > Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing > > One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" > (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. > the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources > gave the same or similar translations. That's also reasonable, and it may make it easier if we assume that we are not addressing the enemy leader. How sure are we of the 'ears' translation? We've been told by our Omaha speakers that nitta' is 'ears', while ni'tta is 'living'. These are pretty close, distinguished by accent, apparently, in modern Omaha, and perhaps by nasalization in niN'tta, 'living', according to Dorsey. The name is listed in Fletcher and La Flesche (52) with the translation "Grizzly bear's ears", but the accentuation is only for a single compound word: MoNchu'nita. The other MoNchu' + X names I found among the Ponka listings are all verbal constructions, most of them statives like 'living'. Understanding the name as "Living Bear" rather than "Bear Ears" seems to me to fit better with the pattern of other names. If "Living Bear" was the correct meaning of the name, then "Bear" is the head of the phrase, and could probably be used alone for short. /ni'tta/ sounds nothing like /s^ki'ma/ except for the vowels, and I don't think phonetic confusion can be stretched far enough to explain such a substitution. But if the man is Living Bear, or Bear for short, then we can still be talking about the man the Ponkas remember as MoNchu'nitta without the /nitta/ part of that having to be uttered in the song. If the name were "Bear Ears", leaving off the "Ears" wouldn't be so plausible. > (the rest are song vocables) I don't know much about Ponka songs, but exactly what is the definition of a vocable, and how do we know one when we hear one? How arbitrary or conventional are they supposed to be? Why do we have that slight variation in the ending of the two lines, OI vs. YA? Revised proposal (still interpreting vocables as words): > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he I got to where you were at, but from here were fled ... S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i OI! I got to where you were at, but from here they were passing in flight! MoNc^Hu' s^ki'-ma(s^e) s^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he You-all who returned with/to Bear, I got to where you were at, but from here were fled ... S^upHi'(e)de dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? I got to where you were at, but were they running away? Not quite as thrilling this way. Needs more work! Rory From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Mar 11 16:55:50 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:55:50 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: > > Spoken: > > S^upHi'(a)de aN'he (the rest are song vocables) > > > > When I got to where you were, they were fleeing > > That's reasonable. And if the pronunciation is -de rather than -di, > we should probably be reading it as 'but' rather than 'when': The "(a)" is dropped in this particular song, probably to make the word fit the melody. That's a common practice. Nearly every one I spoke to in this regard said "(a)" when speaking the word. Also, the pronounciation is definitely "de", not "di". > How sure are we of the 'ears' translation? We've been told by our Omaha > speakers that nitta' is 'ears', while ni'tta is 'living'. These are pretty > close, distinguished by accent, apparently, in modern Omaha, and perhaps by > nasalization in niN'tta, 'living', according to Dorsey. My mistake. It is "nitta' ". They were rather insistant that the name is Bear Ears. > /ni'tta/ sounds nothing like /s^ki'ma/ except for the vowels, and I don't think phonetic > confusion can be stretched far enough to explain such a substitution. I don't think we have an actual "substitution" here. It was interesting to find several people immendiately recognizing "s^ki'ma" as "a mistake" or not sounding quite right. One Ponca man ventured hi'ma (which he translated as "teeth") but he was rather up front in qualifying that as a guess. As I mentioned previously, I really don't know why the word is sung as "s^ki'ma" (or sometimes "s^ti'ma"). We don't know if the singers on that particular recording learned the song "incorrectly", or learned it from someone that "didn't have it quite right", or their version was "correct" with a translation lost in antiquity. Singers in that particular generation learned songs without the use of tape recorders, etc. They typically had one shot at learning the tune from one of a handful of older singers. Then they would teach the song to the other singers in their own generation. In short, something might have gotten lost in the sauce. "S^ki'ma" might have also been thought of as an untranslatable ancient word (there are plenty of those examples in the Ponca language) and it's meaning or validity never questioned. We just don't know for certain. The trouble with this particular song, as is the case with many others, is I don't have a rendition of the song with the word "nitta' ". Nearly every rendition I've heard uses "s^ki'ma". Fluent Ponca speakers are quick to say "that ain't right", but the song is still sung with "s^ki'ma" or "s^ti'ma". This is fairly indicative of something I learned a long time ago about the Ponca language. In songs and in names the rules seem to fly out the window. I imagine there must be some pattern or set of rules for word abbreviation in songs and names but I've never been able to get a handle on it. Elders have been quick to point out such abbreviation is "something strange" but I have yet to find anyone that can explain it. I usually get: "hmmmm....you're right.....I don't know". Plus, as you can well imagine, there is a huge difference between how a word is sung and how a word is spoken - sometimes it's like the difference between night and day. Imagine trying to learn English from songs on the radio. > I don't know much about Ponka songs, but exactly what is the definition of > a vocable, and how do we know one when we hear one? How arbitrary or > conventional are they supposed to be? Why do we have that slight variation in the > ending of the two lines, OI vs. YA? A vocable is a meaningless phoneme (?) that's used to carry the melody of the song, similar to la-la-la in English songs. It would be difficult to explain, in brief, how a vocable is recognized. That would take an epistle. I think you can say there are "stock" vocables or vocable patterns that seem to be used in many songs. In general, these are predictable, usually occur at certain places in the song structure, and are recognizable in the general context of Ponca music. The variation can be due to individual singers rendering the song. Can vocables be confusing when trying to translate songs or conducting linguistic analysis? You bet. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 22:41:01 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:41:01 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <003b01c525ce$75ea30a0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great deal on the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation using the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to the name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that the Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we still theorize as to it's possible meaning? Jonathan Written Transcription of Ponca Song: Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Commentary: "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ?I?m going to be a chief?. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he?d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he?d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, if you?ll pity me, spare my life.? He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.? But the Ponca didn?t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that?s his name, but we don?t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ?you said he was my friend?. A-cha-tho, that?s a Siouan word wh! ich we can?t translate. I shay, ?that?s what you said,? ?that you were my friend,? meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That?s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Tom Leonard wrote: A translation I have from some other Ponca sources: MaN'chu ni'ta - Bear Ears Free translation: Bear Ears, when I got there, they were fleeing One individual I spoke to about this song insisted the word was "ni'ta" (ears) and that the song was ABOUT the individual named MaN'chu ni'ta (i.e. the enemy were running away from MaN'chu ni'ta). A few other Ponca sources gave the same or similar translations. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rory M Larson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:59 PM Subject: RE: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." > Jonathan - Thanks for posting the whole text, and the hints > that go with it. That makes the picture a whole lot clearer! > > > L. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > S. SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > It looks like A = a, AY = e, or perhaps ai, E = i, O = u, and > Un = aN. That leaves us with I, which might represent ai, or > perhaps i, or maybe even ia. I presume TH = dh. So in NetSiouan, > the repeated line should initially be transcribed as > > s^upaidi dhi dhu aNhe > > > SHUPIDE -- WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE, YOU RAN AWAY. > > s^u- + motion verb means the motion is toward you. John Koontz > has described an Omaha elder feeling his way around a darkened > room, warning the people in his path: "S^ubdhe'", "I'm going > toward you". In this case, the motion verb is surely pHi, > which means "I arrived there". (I believe this is aspirated; > John or other OPanists might want to comment on this!) So > > s^upHi' probably means "I arrived at where you were". > > -di would probably be the "when" part of that. In OP, "when" > is typically tHE-di, but the tHE is presumably just the > positional that wraps up the preceding into a single chunk. > It might reasonably be left out, in which case we would have > > s^upHi'(a)di = "when I arrived at where you were". > > The UnHAY must be aN'he, or aN'ha-i, meaning "to flee". > > The THE THO is more problematic, but I find it tempting to > read it as dhe'dhu, meaning 'here', despite the inconsistency > in the rendering of the first vowel. Putting it together, we > would have > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he (or aN'ha-i) > > "When I arrived here where you were, to flee... (or he fled...)" > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE OI > > This might complete the sentence. If the line suggested above > is valid, I would think YO HAY could be uhe', 'to pass', with > epenthetic Y from preceding aN'he. In other words, somebody > went (passed) fleeing. The YE would represent the -i particle, > strongly stressed with preceding epenthesis. The OI would be > the closing particle, something like -u! or hau! or ho! With > this interpretation, the sentence comes out as > > s^upHi'(a)di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i hau! > > "When I arrived here where you were, they went fleeing!" > > This has the slight problem of seeming to switch from direct > address to third person reference with respect to the enemy. > This might be reasonable, however, if one is addressing the > leader of the band, but referring to his men as fleeing. > > > > tail. MOnCHU SHKEMA SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY > > The assumption has been that MOnCHU SHKEMA is all part of the > name, which I gather is supposed to be Dakotan. But if it is > Dakotan, the first part should really be MATO. If SHKIMA is > to be pronounced s^ki-ma, then I think we can get a reasonable > OP translation as part of the sentence. In OP, s^ki can mean > "you come back". The MA would be a pluralizing article, -ma > or ama'. > > Now when they are talking about this Sioux running away, are > they talking about a single man fleeing from individual combat, > or do they mean that the war band of a particular leader was > put to flight? I suspect the latter. How would that band be > referred to? Could it be [leader name] + (a)ma? I noticed > recently that this happens in Old Norse, in which you can have > constructions like "They Ingolf were ..." for "They (under the > leadership of) Ingolf were ...". If this works, we should be > able to assume a Dakotan leader named MATO, transparently known > to the Ponkas as MOnCHU, whose war band was routed. The line > might read > > MaNc^Hu' s^ki-ma(-s^e) s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he ... > > "MaNc^Hu' you-all that came back, when I arrived here where > you were, to flee ..." > > And the sentence would end > > > SHUPIDE THE THO UnHAY YO HAY YE YA > > s^upHi'di dhe'dhu aN'he uha'-i a? > > "... when I arrived here where you were, did they run away?" > > The final YA would be the question particle -a, with preceding > epenthetic Y. > > > MOnCHU SHEMA -- THATS A SIOUAN NAME [...] > > Jonathan- is that a typo? SHEMA for SHKEMA? Otherwise, does > this translation seem at all reasonable? > > Rory > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Mar 12 18:37:51 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:37:51 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: <20050311224101.566.qmail@web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan wrote: > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ?I?m going to be a chief?. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he?d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he?d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, if you?ll pity me, spare my life.? He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.? But the Ponca didn?t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that?s his name, but we don?t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ?you said he was my frien! d?. A-cha-tho, that?s a Siouan word which we can?t translate. I shay, ?that?s what you said,? ?that you were my friend,? meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That?s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) That commentary helps a lot. I wasn't making much sense out of the transcription alone. i shay is es^e', 'you said (it)'. tho must be dhoN, perhaps short for dhoN's^ti, meaning 'formerly'. i ka-ga-ma the might be analyzed in two different ways. In either case, the ka-ga part must be kHage', or 'friend' in OP. (I believe Dakotan would use kHola'.) 1. In both OP and Dakotan, a causative construction can be used with a relationship term to indicate a relationship between two people. The causative is -dhe in OP, and -ye in Dakotan. To conjugate, an affixed pronoun is placed between the elements. Thus, to say 'He is my friend', we should have something like 'friend' + 'me' + -dhe/-ye. In Dakotan, 'me' is -ma-, but in OP it is -aN-. So if we analyze this as a causative relationship term, we are left with a reasonable OP kHage'dhe, inflected with a Dakotan affixed pronoun, and no explanation for the preceding i. 2. In OP, a preceding i- may be attached to relationship terms to indicate the relationship in a verbal sense. I think this is used more often in OP, while the causative is normally used in Dakotan. So ikHa'ge would mean 'his friend' (and not 'my friend'). In that case, ma the would probably be moNdhiN', 'he walks', used here as a behavioral continuative. This interpretation seems more likely to me. So ikHa'ge moNdhiN', 'he goes as his/their friend'. Ha ni-ka-bthe is less clear. I suppose the ni-ka is ni'kka, as in ni'kkagahi, 'chief', or ni'kkas^iNga, 'person'. The bthe might be either bdhe', 'I go', or bdhiN', 'I am (a member of such a set)'. If ma the is in fact moNdhiN', as suggested above, then the possibility of interpreting transcribed e as [iN] is supported. Another word for chief is gahi'ge, which seems to contain the same gahi as in ni'kkagahi. The word s^iN'gaz^iNga, 'child', 'baby', is the only one I know of besides ni'kkas^iNga to have that s^iN'ga element. Perhaps s^iN'ga originally meant 'youth' or 'youthful'? In that case, a 'little youth' would be a small child, and a young ni'kka would be a ni'kka who is immature, hence a common man in contrast to a chief, which could be extended from there to mean a person in general. In that case, gahi' could mean 'lead' or perhaps 'drive', and gahi'ge could mean 'leader', while a ni'kkagahi would be one who leads ni'kkas. This might suggest that ni'kka is a fairly honorable term. In Osage, it means 'man' (La Flesche), so a ni'kkagahi would be a "leader of men". But perhaps it was even better than that in Ponka, meaning, perhaps, specifically a young man of a good family, or the son of a chief. Or perhaps the preceding ha combined with ni'kka to produce this meaning. Either way, I would guess the meaning as approximately Ha-ni'kka bdhiN, es^e' dhoN "I am the heir-of-a-chief (?)", you said formerly. A-cha-tho The only thing I can think of here is that the ch is being used for [t?], which could give us at?a' or at?e', 'I die', for the first part of that. > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho The Shke-ma here should probably be s^ki'-(a)ma or s^kiN'-(a)ma. To take one last shot at reading it in OP, I would try MoNc^Hu', s^ki' ama', ikHa'ge moNdhiN, es^e' dhoN(s^ti). Bear, you came back, it is said, he goes as a friend, you said formerly. Beyond that, I would have to trust the Ponka elders and appeal to the Dakotanists on the list for help on "Shke-ma". I'd also like to note that the "yo he ye oi" and "yo he ye ya" series listed look a lot like the other ones, though they can't have the meaning here that I was attributing to them there. Hence, Tom's claim that they are semantically meaningless vocables is favored over my suggestion that they were stylized sentence endings. Rory Jonathan Holmes To Sent by: siouan at lists.colorado.edu owner-siouan at list cc s.colorado.edu Subject Re: Meaning of Siouan word 03/11/2005 04:41 "Shke-ma." PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great deal on the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation using the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to the name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that the Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we still theorize as to it's possible meaning? Jonathan Written Transcription of Ponca Song: Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho A-cha-tho, i shay tho Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) Commentary: "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ?I?m going to be a chief?. Let me give you the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then he?d be missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive among the Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he?d go back to the Sioux. One time when the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next time the Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, and when they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, if you?ll pity me, spare my life.? He said, ?When I get back to the Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the council of chiefs.? But the Ponca didn?t spare his life, they killed him. The song goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that?s his name, but we don?t know what it means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ?you said he was my frien! d?. A-cha-tho, that?s a Siouan word which we can?t translate. I shay, ?that?s what you said,? ?that you were my friend,? meaning that after he professed friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the Poncas and they captured him. That?s how the song was made, for that man." (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) From tmleonard at cox.net Sat Mar 12 23:31:09 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:31:09 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: I used this same song as a reference for the previously posted song. The Ponca elders I spoke to were, again, insistent that the name was MaN'chu nitta, or Bear Ears. But, this again goes to some of the problems in translating songs that I mentioned earlier. MaN'chu nitta might have been a Sioux captive, but that possibility needs more research (you could try looking in early census rolls or ethnographic field notes). I think it is also important to point out that the referenced transcript has little in the way of linguistic analysis. That was probably way beyond its intent. It was essentially an attempt at a phonetic transcript put together, post-facto (without corroboration by the performers) by non-Indians as an aide in learning Ponca songs (not language). The transcript, depending upon what version you have, tried to approximate Fletcher & LaFlesche's orthography, but presents a few problems. Accordingly, you end up with problems like "s^ke'ma" vs. "s^ki'ma" or "the, i shay tho" vs. "egi's^e"(you said) or "es^e' " (you [all] said). As the emphasis was on music (not linguistics), and the recipients of the recording didn't speak Ponca, you also end up getting abbreviated or very generalized explanations (not literal word-by-word translations) by the performers. Again, words that are sung are very different than when spoken. I think what you have here is: ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will be / you said ha ni'kka - an old form for chief, actually implying "a commander" (see LaFlesche's Osage dictionary for an example) - derived from ni'kkagahi ('chief') bthe (hta ni'ke) rendered as: btha (it's "btha" on the recording, not "bthe") (hta ni'kke implying 2nd person future) egi's^e - you said From are2 at buffalo.edu Sun Mar 13 04:12:40 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:12:40 -0500 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In general, I hesitate to say anything about songs due to sacredness and other issues. However, the 2 comments I have back up the original translations and transcriptions given by the Elders (without a need to posit additional reconstruction). >>ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will be / you said (as given by T. Leonard) Ths is certainly likely to be 'bthe' 'I go' or 'I become.' It is used as an inchoative auxiliary as well as a main verb in modern Omaha. There's no need to reconstruct or posit it as bdhiN 'I am.' Also in >>I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ?you said he was my friend!? (in original and R. Larson posting) the 'ma' is likely the progressive auxiliary 'ama' and not a particle based on moNthiN or a causative. I can only be amazed by Elder speaker abilities to translate. Quoting Rory M Larson : > > > > > Jonathan wrote: > > > > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ???I???m going to be a chief???. Let > me give you > the story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken > captive > among the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then > he???d be > missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive > among the > Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he???d go back to the Sioux. One > time when > the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next > time the > Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, > and when > they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ???When I get > back to the > Siouxs, if you???ll pity me, spare my life.??? He said, ???When I get > back to the > Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the > council > of chiefs.??? But the Ponca didn???t spare his life, they killed > him. The song > goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that???s his name, but we don???t > know what it > means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ???you said he was my > frien! d???. > A-cha-tho, that???s a Siouan word which we can???t translate. I > shay, ???that???s > what you said,??? ???that you were my friend,??? meaning that after > he professed > friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the > Poncas > and they captured him. That???s how the song was made, for > that man." > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > That commentary helps a lot. I wasn't making much sense out of the > transcription alone. > > i shay is es^e', 'you said (it)'. > > tho must be dhoN, perhaps short for dhoN's^ti, meaning 'formerly'. > > i ka-ga-ma the might be analyzed in two different ways. In either > case, the ka-ga part must be kHage', or 'friend' in OP. (I > believe > Dakotan would use kHola'.) > > 1. In both OP and Dakotan, a causative construction can be used > with a relationship term to indicate a relationship between > two people. The causative is -dhe in OP, and -ye in > Dakotan. > To conjugate, an affixed pronoun is placed between the > elements. > Thus, to say 'He is my friend', we should have something > like > 'friend' + 'me' + -dhe/-ye. In Dakotan, 'me' is -ma-, but > in > OP it is -aN-. So if we analyze this as a causative > relationship > term, we are left with a reasonable OP kHage'dhe, inflected > with > a Dakotan affixed pronoun, and no explanation for the > preceding i. > > 2. In OP, a preceding i- may be attached to relationship terms > to > indicate the relationship in a verbal sense. I think this > is > used more often in OP, while the causative is normally used > in > Dakotan. So ikHa'ge would mean 'his friend' (and not 'my > friend'). > In that case, ma the would probably be moNdhiN', 'he walks', > used here as a behavioral continuative. This interpretation > seems more likely to me. So ikHa'ge moNdhiN', 'he goes as > his/their friend'. > > Ha ni-ka-bthe is less clear. I suppose the ni-ka is ni'kka, as in > ni'kkagahi, 'chief', or ni'kkas^iNga, 'person'. The bthe might be > either bdhe', 'I go', or bdhiN', 'I am (a member of such a set)'. > If > ma the is in fact moNdhiN', as suggested above, then the possibility > of interpreting transcribed e as [iN] is supported. Another word > for > chief is gahi'ge, which seems to contain the same gahi as in > ni'kkagahi. > The word s^iN'gaz^iNga, 'child', 'baby', is the only one I know of > besides ni'kkas^iNga to have that s^iN'ga element. Perhaps s^iN'ga > originally meant 'youth' or 'youthful'? In that case, a 'little > youth' > would be a small child, and a young ni'kka would be a ni'kka who is > immature, hence a common man in contrast to a chief, which could be > extended from there to mean a person in general. In that case, > gahi' > could mean 'lead' or perhaps 'drive', and gahi'ge could mean > 'leader', > while a ni'kkagahi would be one who leads ni'kkas. This might > suggest > that ni'kka is a fairly honorable term. In Osage, it means 'man' > (La Flesche), so a ni'kkagahi would be a "leader of men". But > perhaps > it was even better than that in Ponka, meaning, perhaps, > specifically > a young man of a good family, or the son of a chief. Or perhaps the > preceding ha combined with ni'kka to produce this meaning. Either > way, > I would guess the meaning as approximately > > Ha-ni'kka bdhiN, es^e' dhoN > "I am the heir-of-a-chief (?)", you said formerly. > > A-cha-tho The only thing I can think of here is that the ch is being > used for [t?], which could give us at?a' or at?e', 'I die', for the > first > part of that. > > > > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho > > The Shke-ma here should probably be s^ki'-(a)ma or s^kiN'-(a)ma. > To take one last shot at reading it in OP, I would try > > MoNc^Hu', s^ki' ama', ikHa'ge moNdhiN, es^e' dhoN(s^ti). > > Bear, you came back, it is said, he goes as a friend, you said > formerly. > > Beyond that, I would have to trust the Ponka elders and appeal to > the > Dakotanists on the list for help on "Shke-ma". > > I'd also like to note that the "yo he ye oi" and "yo he ye ya" > series > listed look a lot like the other ones, though they can't have the > meaning > here that I was attributing to them there. Hence, Tom's claim that > they > are semantically meaningless vocables is favored over my suggestion > that > they were stylized sentence endings. > > Rory > > > > > > > Jonathan Holmes > > > oo.com> > To > Sent by: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > owner-siouan at list > cc > s.colorado.edu > > > Subject > Re: Meaning of Siouan word > > 03/11/2005 04:41 "Shke-ma." > > PM > > > > > > Please respond to > > siouan at lists.colo > > rado.edu > > > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed the different commentaries, and have learned a great > deal on > the intricacies of linguistics. I just found another song translation > using > the same name, but the story behind it may give some more insights to > the > name origin. If the individual spoken of in both songs is the same > individual, and if this individual was a Sioux (Lakota) boy that was > captured by the Ponca and raised as a Ponca, and if we assume that > the > Ponca translated his Sioux name to a Ponca pronounciation, can we > still > theorize as to it's possible meaning? > Jonathan > > > > Written Transcription of Ponca Song: > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the > > > A-cha-tho, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye oi > > > MoN-chu Shke-ma, i ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho > > > A-cha-tho, i shay tho > > > Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay the, yo he ye ya > > > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > > Commentary: > > > "Ha ni-ka-bthe, i shay tho, ???I???m going to be a chief???. Let me > give you the > story behind this song. There was a young Sioux who was taken captive > among > the Poncas and finally became a young man. Every now and then > he???d be > missing. Evidently someone had told him that he was a captive > among the > Poncas and that he was a Sioux. So he???d go back to the Sioux. One > time when > the Siouxs raided the Poncas, someone spotted him. So the next > time the > Siouxs raided again, they singled him out and they recaptured him, > and when > they recaptured him, he begged for mercy. He said, ???When I get > back to the > Siouxs, if you???ll pity me, spare my life.??? He said, ???When I get > back to the > Siouxs, they are going to put me in the place of my father in the > council > of chiefs.??? But the Ponca didn???t spare his life, they killed > him. The song > goes on to say, MoNchu Shkema, that???s his name, but we don???t > know what it > means. I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, ???you said he was my > frien! d???. > A-cha-tho, that???s a Siouan word which we can???t translate. I > shay, ???that???s > what you said,??? ???that you were my friend,??? meaning that after > he professed > friendship with the Poncas, he had been in war parties against the > Poncas > and they captured him. That???s how the song was made, for > that man." > (Warrior & Brown, 1967, p. 30) > > > > > > > From tmleonard at cox.net Sun Mar 13 16:36:56 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:36:56 -0600 Subject: Meaning of Siouan word "Shke-ma." Message-ID: > >>ha ni'kka bthe (ta ni'ke) egi's^e - Chief (commander) / you will > be / you said (as given by T. Leonard) > > Ths is certainly likely to be 'bthe' 'I go' or 'I become.' It is used > as an inchoative auxiliary as well as a main verb in modern Omaha. > There's no need to reconstruct or posit it as bdhiN 'I am.' I agree with this. It is certainly "bthe" - to become. In the recording it is rendered as "btha". "Bthe" followed by "ta" (indicating future) often drops to "btha" (e---> a). "ta ni'ke" was dropped to fit the melody. That's fairly common in older songs. > > Also in > >>I ka-ga-ma the, i shay tho, 'you said he was my friend!' > (in original and R. Larson posting) > > the 'ma' is likely the progressive auxiliary 'ama' and not a particle > based on moNthiN or a causative. > I agree with this also. In the recording it is rendered as "i-kHa-gya-ma". The majority of the time this ends up being "i'kHage ama". In this case, it could be "(w)i'kHage ama", the (w) being abbreviated in the song. This is similar to "nu'da hi ama" (roughly, "those returning from war") being rendered as "nu'da ya'ma" (e + a or i + a -----> ya). This is found in many songs. I have the whole song this way (without melody vocables): As sung: ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e a's^oN tho i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' ikHa'gya ma i'^se a's^tho i's^e ha ni'kka btha i's^e Sung: ha ni'kka btha i's^e Spoken: ha ni'kka bthe ta ni'ke egi's^e Translation: ha ni'kka - chief or commander / bthe - to become / ta ni'ke - 2nd person future/ egi's^e -you said Free Translation: You said you will become chief Sung: MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' ikHa'gya ma i'^se Spoken: MoNc^Hu' s^ki'ma' wi'kHage ama egi'^se Translation: MoNc^Hu - grizzly bear / s^ki'ma - no translation; said to actually be nitta (ears) / wi'kHage - my friend or i'kHage - friend; likely to be wi'kHage / ama - auxiliary; denoting single person in motion or plural subject / egi'^se - you said Free Translation: Bear Ears, my friend, you said Sung: a's^oN tho i's^e Spoken: s^oN tho egi's^e Translation: s^oN tho - in a little while or in a short time / egi's^e - you said Free Translation: In a little while, you said I'd like to point out that the in the referrenced transcript the performers often say "we don't know the meaning of that word" or "I can't translate that". That doesn't mean that there isn't a translation. It can sometimes mean "I don't know how to translate that into English" - or - "It's too difficult to translate" -or- "I don't know how to say it". English was not their first language. I've run into this a lot. One word in Ponca can translate into an entire concept in English requiring a lot of explanation. Unless the performer and/or the transcriber wants to delve into the details, it often gets passed over. In this particular case, the emphahsis was on songs and a rough translation (for non-Indians), not linguistic details. This transcript has very general and loose translations. Also, I should point out, these songs being discussed are "war dance songs", commonly used at powwows. They are typically discussed quite openly. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 16:46:52 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: Articles and Existentials with Ethnonyms in Omaha-Ponca Message-ID: I don?t know about Omaha-Ponca, but in Osage the counterparts of these sentences can be explained as noted after asterisks below****. Carolyn Q. Existentials by Making Verb of Noun JOD 396.10 kkaN'za=i= the ha K PL EVID DEC 'they are (apparently) Kansas' *****(they are present and still) JOD 1890:456.5 wa?u= i ha woman PL DEC 'they are women' Simple Examples of Singular/Plural (Animate Proximate) Articles umaN'haN=akha O the sg ****(the Omaha person is present and still) umaN'haN=ama O the pl *******(the Omaha person or persons are absent, or are present but moving) Use of "Singular" Article with Plural Reference JOD 1890:399.7 umaN'haN=akha j^u'ba O the sg some 'a few Omaha*s*' *****(they are present and still) JOD 1890:426.12 umaN'haN=akha= tta=dhis^aN bdhe O the sg to drawing I go 'I go toward those who are Omaha' ******(they are present and still) JOD 1890:437.3, 1890:748.5 umaN'haN=akha O the sg 'the Omaha*s*' ******(they are present and still) Use of Doubled Articles In Identifications JOD 1890:396.12 umaN'haN=am= ama O the pl 'they were Omahas moving' ******(they were moving) Use of =e Cleft in Identification JOD 1890:666.4 ppaN'kka=akh= e P the sg it is 'it is the Ponca' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:63.11 is^tiniNkhe=akh= e akha I the sg it is 'Ishtinike is the one' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:101.32 mi'kkase=akh=e C the it is 'it is the Coyote' *****(present and still) JOD 1890:79.10 aN'phaN=am= e elk the pl it is 'it was elk' (?) *****(present and moving) Use of a Single Article (Progressive Verb?) in Identification JOD 1890:456.4 ni'kkas^iNga=ama ha person the pl DEC 'they are persons who are moving' *****(present and moving) In summary, based on the Omaha-Ponca texts, the most likely reading for kkoNze=akha (ha) is 'they are (a specified quanitity of, by default all?) the Kansas'. The most likely reading of kkoNze=akh=e would be 'it is (a specified number, by default all?) the Kansa (who)'. From goodtracks at GBRonline.com Tue Mar 15 01:05:15 2005 From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:05:15 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Was these river names in Iowa discussed previously? Does anyone want to offer some tentative translations? ----- Original Message ----- From: George W. Garvin To: jggoodtracks at juno.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages What I was looking for is a number of translations, for example Nodaway, what does it mean? and also Nishnabota, these two word are listed as Rivers. And the word Nodaway, we use that in a song in one of our ceremonies, and it doesn't make sense, so I can't translate that particular song. George Garvin Repatriations Researcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Mar 15 18:43:17 2005 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:17 EST Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: The name Nodaway looks like it derives from a reflex in one or another Algonquian language of Proto-Algonquian *na:tawe:wa 'massasauga', the source of the name Nottoway for the Northern Iroquoian people of southeastern Virginia. Frank Siebert did an article on the word in the Winter 1996 issue of Anthropological Linguistics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc Wed Mar 16 14:56:42 2005 From: Louis_Garcia at littlehoop.cc (Louis Garcia) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:56:42 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <1c4.241fab8c.2f6886c5@aol.com> Message-ID: Members: Iowa Place Names of Indian Origin By Virgil J. Vogel (he passed on a few years ago) University of Iowa Press, Iowa City 1983 Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) Na;to;we. John Kootz has more on this on his website. Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe Later, LouieG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 16 15:09:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:09:23 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: > Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) > Na;to;we. John Kootz has > more on this on his website. > > Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe The only thing I can add to Louis' contribution is the observation that 'natowe' is also the basis of the variously-spelled 'nadowessiwa', the origin of the English word 'Sioux'. For many years it was assumed to refer to snakes in an Algonquian language, but more recently was shown to mean 'those who speak a different language' -- I think by Ives Goddard. (This may be what's on John's web site. I haven't had time to check.) So Vogel may have had it right or he might have been repeating an erronious legendary account. Bob From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 17:21:11 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:21:11 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous snakes." 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the French Canadian rendering of it was spelled Nadou?ssioux. Jonathan "R. Rankin" wrote: > Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) > Na;to;we. John Kootz has > more on this on his website. > > Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe The only thing I can add to Louis' contribution is the observation that 'natowe' is also the basis of the variously-spelled 'nadowessiwa', the origin of the English word 'Sioux'. For many years it was assumed to refer to snakes in an Algonquian language, but more recently was shown to mean 'those who speak a different language' -- I think by Ives Goddard. (This may be what's on John's web site. I haven't had time to check.) So Vogel may have had it right or he might have been repeating an erronious legendary account. Bob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 18:22:07 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:22:07 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <20050316143302.A8F2E310E68@mail.littlehoop.cc> Message-ID: Concerning the meaning of Nodaway, and Nishnabotna, I have read the following meanings ascribed to them: 1. Nodaway is a Potawatomi word meaning "placid," or "tranquil," or "peaceful." 2. Nishnabotna is an Otoe word meaning "creek where they make boats." I have also seen some texts refer to Nodaway meaning "fordable," and Nishnabotna meaning "not fordable" or "crossed with a canoe," but no tribal origin was assigned to the meanings. I hope this may help in some way. Jonathan Louis Garcia wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Members: Iowa Place Names of Indian Origin By Virgil J. Vogel (he passed on a few years ago) University of Iowa Press, Iowa City 1983 Nodaway River = Ojibway word for Snake (Dakota?) Na;to;we. John Kootz has more on this on his website. Nishnabotna River = Curruption of Anishinabe Later, LouieG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 16 19:58:41 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:58:41 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadou?ssioux. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 20:10:31 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:10:31 -0800 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. dave -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadou?ssioux. From demallie at indiana.edu Wed Mar 16 20:33:27 2005 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie, Raymond J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. Ray DeMallie -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. dave -----Original Message----- From: "R. Rankin" Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a different language." Apparently the two words are somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the best discussion: http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux Bob >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > snakes." > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > Nadou?ssioux. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 21:05:19 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:05:19 -0800 Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Sorry about that -- should have looked closer. :-( Actually, I'm not a Siouanist, but I pay attention to the Handbook all the time! Dave > As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux > synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to > see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. > > Ray DeMallie > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these > terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the > synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. > > dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: "R. Rankin" > Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent > work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories > (widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of > which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly > untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a > different language." Apparently the two words are > somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the > best discussion: > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux > > Bob > >>I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: >> >> 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of >> the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous >> snakes." >> >> 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated >> Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe >> meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the >> French Canadian rendering of it was spelled >> Nadou?ssioux. > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 17 00:19:49 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:19:49 -0600 Subject: Sioux. Message-ID: So is the analysis of the name Sioux as a variant of 'those who speak a different language' Doug's or is it based on some earlier analysis? Lots of linguists were consulted about the Plains Volume synonymy including myself, on numerous occasions (I contributed nothing on the name Sioux, however). My understanding was that the reanalysis originated with Ives, but maybe I was wrong. Bob From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Mar 18 22:58:59 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:58:59 -0600 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages Message-ID: Some attention!? The Plains volumes are invaluable. If no one has yet said thank-you for your efforts, then: Thank you! Mary At 02:33 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >As editor of the Plains volume I feel compelled to note that the Sioux >synonymy was written by Doug Parks, not Ives Goddard. I am gratified to >see the Siouanists pay at least some attention to the Handbook. > >Ray DeMallie > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of david costa >Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:11 PM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > >Yes, Goddard lays out the real etymologies for these >terms on page 749 of the Handbook, volume 13 (Plains), in the >synonymy section of DeMallie's 'Sioux Until 1850' chapter. > >dave > >-----Original Message----- >From: "R. Rankin" >Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:58 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > >Yes, that used to be the common story, but more recent >work by Goddard seems to show that these old stories >(widely repeated on dozens of internet sites most of >which seem to plagiarize from others) were mostly >untrue, with the term referring to "those who speak a >different language." Apparently the two words are >somewhat similar. Koontz's web site has probably the >best discussion: >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm#Sioux > >Bob > > >I have read two versions of the origin of Sioux: > > > > 1. The word Sioux is a French Canadian rendering of > > the Ojibway word nadewisou, meaning "treacherous > > snakes." > > > > 2. The word Sioux is taken from the abbreviated > > Algonquin (Ojibway or Ottawa) compound, nadowe > > meaning "snake" plus siu meaning "little," and the > > French Canadian rendering of it was spelled > > Nadou?ssioux. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 08:20:41 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:20:41 -0700 Subject: Sioux. In-Reply-To: <002c01c52a87$091c0530$2fb5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, R. Rankin wrote: > So is the analysis of the name Sioux as a variant of 'those who speak a > different language' Doug's or is it based on some earlier analysis? > Lots of linguists were consulted about the Plains Volume synonymy > including myself, on numerous occasions (I contributed nothing on the > name Sioux, however). My understanding was that the reanalysis > originated with Ives, but maybe I was wrong. Doug's synonymy (2001, HBNAI 13:749-760) seems to espouse the etymology in terms of a medial *-aatowee- 'speak a (foreign) language' and attributes it to Pentland 1979, an article in the Calgary Working Papers in Linguistics and Goddard 1984, an article on Native North American Ethnonymy. I first encountered the claim in an article by Fenton (1978, HBNAI 15:320-321), though probably Pentland and/or Goddard are the source behind that. However, Doug also mentions Siebert's 1996 etymology in terms of a term for 'massasuga' (a kind of rattler) as an alternative. At a guess, this reference was added in revision, and the absence of further discussion reflects an uncertainty as to which analysis to favor, given the division within the Algonquian field. Certainly that's the position I find myself in! The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, and quite a tour de force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives Goddard that would be a natural accident, as many of the preceeding HBNAI synonymies have been compiled by him, albeit with assistance from numerous experts and, I believe, a small, but select body of student researchers at the SI. The HBNAI synonymies represent enormous scholarly labor. I think the only person on the list who has been notably guilty of not consulting HBNAI 13 when appropriate has been myself. This has been mostly because I haven't been as able to purchase expensive references lately. (Not that the HBNAI is unreasonably expensive. Actually, it's a real bargain, given its huge size and the limited market.) Anyway, I do now have a copy, and I will try to do better. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 08:26:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:26:19 -0700 Subject: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050318165656.01f7ede0@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Marino wrote: > Some attention!? The Plains volumes are invaluable. If no one has yet > said thank-you for your efforts, then: > > Thank you! > > Mary Motion seconded! Again, really, I think the main neglector has been myself, and I have certainly had this pointed out to me by several different people. In my defense I can only plead my usual slapdash tendencies combined with a certain post-separative impecuniarity. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:27:44 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:27:44 -0700 Subject: Nishnabotna (Re: Fw: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages) In-Reply-To: <007501c528fc$30dc9800$db640945@JIMM> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Jimm GoodTracks forwarded: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George W. Garvin > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:51 AM > Subject: Iowa-Ho-Chunk Languages > > What I was looking for is a number of translations, for example Nodaway, > what does it mean? and also Nishnabota, these two word are listed as > Rivers. And the word Nodaway, we use that in a song in one of our > ceremonies, and it doesn't make sense, so I can't translate that > particular song. George Garvin Repatriations Researcher I think Nodaway has been dealt with reasonably so far in response to Jimm's query. It's presumably a transfer of an eastern name like Nottoway, or perhaps a reference to the Dakotas under the Nadoues(sioux). Historically Sioux is from the diminutivized form of Nadoue (~ Nottoway, Nodaway, etc.), and this base form is used for the Iroquois, but I've noticed that Rich Rhodes' Odawa Dictionary has the historical pattern reversed, and perhaps it was never as absolute as we've understood it to have been. For a perhaps comparable transfer consider Oneota (< Iroquoian Oneonta), the original name of the Iowa River (if I recall correctly). As far as the Nishnabotna, Bob and I worried over this for a long time in connection with, I think, an edition of the Lewis & Clark journals. The best we could do at the time was the "version of Anishinabe" explanation that Louis Garcia mentioned. Subsequently I noticed that the LaFlesche Osage dictionary has an entry (1930:107) for ni-hni'-bo-shta 'two springs not far from each other, one clear and sweet, the other black and bitter. A strange feature in connection with these springs was that there was a oeculiar movement that caused the Indians to call them shooting springs. This was the first camp on the second buffalo trail.' I have no idea if this Osage placename is connected with Nishnabotna, but it seems clearly to me to illustrate a Dhegiha stream name of a pattern that would explain a form like Nishnabotna. Ni-hni-bo-shta would represent something like Osage niN-s^niN' po'=s^ta. The spelling hni reflects Omaha-Ponca treatment of s^niN in LaFlesche's generation. The first part niNs^niN is literally niN 'water' plus s^niN 'cold', but means '(a) spring'. The second part, po'=s^ta, is not included in the LaFlesche dictionary, but consits of po= 'by shooting' (which LaFlesche alludes to in his definition), cf. OP mu= 'by shooting', plus -s^ta, an instrumental root of uncertain meaning, perhaps 'remain', cf. -s^tE in OP. Maybe it's really shtaN, again, meaning uncertain, but perhaps 'to release', cf. -s^taN in OP. Anyway, po'=s^ta clearly refers to the 'shooting' or 'errupting' character of the spring. I think that the similarity of niNs^niNpos^ta to Nishnabotna is obvious. The only significant change is from s^ta to tna, which we can put down to "corruption," i.e., confused transmission in borrowing, or perhaps to the source not actually being this precise Osage form, but something similar in another language. For example, per Jimm GoodTracks's Ioway-Otoe-Missouria dictionary, IO has iNriN=xj^i 'spring' (i.e., water-cold + very). It seems to me that a spelling like -tna could reflect a root like -s^na(N) (-hna(N)) or -na(N) or ta(N) with essentially the same meaning as -s^ta(N), opening up possibilities in IO and other Dhegiha languages. So, for Nishnabotna I would tentatively offer 'shooting (or spouting, spurting) spring' (< Osage?) as a gloss, with details uncertain. It doesn't seem like Omaha-Ponca is involved, since it has mu= for the 'by shooting' instrumental. Also, the only form for 'spring' in OP that I know of is niNhaNga < niN 'water' + haNga 'leader'. Probably here the sense of haNga is closer to Proto-Siouan *huNka 'parent, ancestor, original' as in some other Siouan languages. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:30:27 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:30:27 -0700 Subject: Sioux. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Koontz John E wrote: > The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, and quite a tour de > force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives Goddard ... My apologies - it was David Costa, not Bob Rankin, who made the slip. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Mar 26 09:53:11 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:53:11 -0700 Subject: Nishnabotna Message-ID: We've discussed Nishnabotna before: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=nishnabotna&s=&f=&a=&b= From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 26 15:00:10 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:00:10 -0600 Subject: Sioux. Message-ID: >> The synonymy for Dakota/Sioux is by Doug, of course, >> and quite a tour de >> force, but if Bob accidentally attributed it to Ives >> Goddard ... > My apologies - it was David Costa, not Bob Rankin, > who made the slip. I wasn't talking about the Handbook treatment, but I did mention Ives as a source of the "another language" analysis. The reason is that this is a topic I've discussed a couple of times over the years with Ives personally. I do know that Doug Parks was extremely conscientious in consulting a variety of scholars over a multiyear period about the synonymy in the Plains Volume, so the Handbook article is probably the definitive statement on the matter. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 26 16:52:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:52:25 -0600 Subject: Free font editing program on your computer. Message-ID: Here is another one of those things that probably nearly everybody but me already knew but a few might find helpful. If you have Windows 2000 or XP and have installed "Service Pack 2" there is a free font editor program included that will enable you to modify already existing characters or create new characters for any or all of your true type font sets. This is very handy for special phonetic characters. Microsoft has hidden this program well and I happened on it by accident while researching various font problems in the Word Help file. It was probably included as an afterthought and information about it is not completely incorporated in the Search mechanism of the Help file. You can find it and create a shortcut to it by clicking on START, then SEARCH "all files and folders" and typing the file name in the search box. It is called EUDCEDIT.EXE It will bring up a grid on-screen that you can use for whatever character you choose. Windows automatically fills out the pixelated outline you produce to make a well-formed new or modified character. Since it produces "True Type" output, I assume whatever you make will print out OK too, but I have not tried printing yet. Bob From warr0120 at umn.edu Mon Mar 28 17:00:43 2005 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:00:43 -0600 Subject: Free font editing program on your computer. In-Reply-To: <000901c53224$31174ff0$08b5ed81@Rankin> Message-ID: That's a real nice find! The program is called "Private Character Editor". If anyone has trouble locating the file (XP or 2000): - go to Start > Run, and type "eudcedit" and the program will load - the file is in the WINDOWS/system32 directory if you want to create a shortcut - or google for eudcedit or "Personal Character Editor" About Private Character Editor and Unicode Private Use Area: The whole "private" thing refers to a sequence of character codes (E000-F8FF - there's a second private use area, but hopefully you don't have that many characters that are missing) that were left open for characters missing from the standard or considered unworthy of being included in the standard (like Klingon). It lets you use Unicode-standard characters mixed with your own characters, no standardization involved. It's not considered the long term solution for missing characters, however. A proposal for characters or a whole writing system should be submitted to Unicode to really deal with the issue. And such a proposal might be a good idea for Siouan languages (I'm thinking of digitzed Dorsey - what a mess!). Another very useful program, which should help eliminate the need for all those remapping fonts that everybody keep creating (displaying an 'a' as something else, but the code is still for an a, like with Wingdings where 'a' appears as the zodiac sign Cancer), is Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator (MKLC): http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/outreach/dnloads/msklc.mspx (You also have to have the .NET framework installed from Microsoft: http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/downloads/updates/default.aspx) It's for creating new keyboard layouts that you can install into XP (it creates a Microsoft installer program you can then share with anyone), just like installing any language's existing keyboard (Russian, German, Greek, etc.). If you have a decent Unicode font, and your character is in it, put it in a keyboard layout. I have a Dakota keyboard I use, which is similar to the English International layout. The apostrophe key is a "dead key". So if you hit apostrophe + another key you get special Unicode character, for example: apostrophe + space = apostrophe apostrophe + a = a with acute accent (? = 00E1) apostrophe + s = s with acute accent (? = 015B) apostrophe + g = g with a dot above (? = 0121) etc. Not every character I need is there yet (mostly the dots are under when I want them over, but that's close enough for me most of the time, for now - the combining dots don't display well enough in my font), so the Private Character Editor could be useful. But Unicode is getting better all the time, and it's really a good idea to start getting used to Unicode and XML. Overall, this keyboard layout approach is awesome because you're actually storing your data in Unicode, and once the keyboard layout is created, you don't have to remember a hundred different character codes and type six keys every time you want a 'special' character. A huge time/frustration saver. And it actually came from Microsoft! Who knew?! Let me know if you have questions about how to use MKLC. Patrick Warren From kdshea at ku.edu Mon Mar 28 20:42:44 2005 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Kathleen Shea) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:42:44 -0600 Subject: Ponca language course Message-ID: Hi, all, Attached is an announcement in the form of a flyer for the Ponca language course that I'll be teaching in June, in case anyone's interested in seeing the course description. (Please note that the course in condensed into one month instead of the usual two for a summer course. I don't know how I'll be able to attend the SACC unless I take a day off and invite the whole class to come with me!) I have to have fifteen people signed up on the first day for the course to fly, so if you know anyone who's interested, please pass the word. Then all I have to do is to teach it! Kathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Summer 2005 course announcement.doc Type: application/msword Size: 26112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mckay020 at umn.edu Mon Mar 28 21:26:44 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:26:44 -0600 Subject: Dakota language In-Reply-To: <004201c533d6$b2711320$9309ed81@9afl3> Message-ID: A while ago, someone had posted an e-mail asking me to help them learn Dakota or something like that. I lost all of my saved e-mail recently. Please e-mail me again. Pidamayaye do. -Cantemaza de miye do. (neil mckay) Dakota Language University of Minnesota From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 21:01:53 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:01:53 -0800 Subject: Biloxi banana Message-ID: Hi all, There is the Biloxi word "haataN tani" glossed as "banana" in Dorsey's dictionary. The "tani" part is "big" I know, but I'm having trouble locating any cognates in other Siouan languages (or Muskogean) for haataN. I just recently found out about the native fruit "pawpaw" and I'm wondering if haataN may be the word for it (especially since pawpaws do look like smaller versions of bananas), thus "haataN tani" = large pawpaw = banana, perhaps? Does anyone have the word for pawpaw in other Siouan languages for comparison? Thanks! Dave --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Mar 29 22:21:19 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:21:19 -0600 Subject: Biloxi banana Message-ID: Well, there shouldn't be cognates for 'banana' since it's an introduced fruit in North America. But Quapaw uses /to z^oNke/ for both 'pawpaw' and the newer 'banana', so they take advantage of the same similarity, but the words are different. Quapaw /to/ refers originally to the 'Indian potato', Dakotan mdo or blo, but the compound is 'pawpaw'. I don't have the separate meaning for /z^oNke/, but one of the Quapaws speculated that it referred to 'sweet'. It is not the normal verb for 'be sweet' however, and I don't have it in other usages. Maybe there's an Omaha /z^oNge/ that someone can identify. I think some of the other Dhegiha dialects may use something like /ttewadhe/ for 'banana', but I'm not sure. It's mentioned in Gilmore's ethnobotany of the northern plains from 1919. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kaufman" To: "Siouan List" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:01 PM Subject: Biloxi banana > Hi all, > > There is the Biloxi word "haataN tani" glossed as > "banana" in Dorsey's dictionary. The "tani" part is > "big" I know, but I'm having trouble locating any > cognates in other Siouan languages (or Muskogean) for > haataN. I just recently found out about the native > fruit "pawpaw" and I'm wondering if haataN may be the > word for it (especially since pawpaws do look like > smaller versions of bananas), thus "haataN tani" = > large pawpaw = banana, perhaps? Does anyone have the > word for pawpaw in other Siouan languages for > comparison? > > Thanks! > > Dave > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 30 03:55:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:55:11 -0600 Subject: followup on 'banana'. Message-ID: > I think some of the other Dhegiha dialects may use > something like /ttewadhe/ for 'banana', but I'm not > sure. It's mentioned in Gilmore's ethnobotany of the > northern plains from 1919. Since I was doing the above from memory, and my memory is slipping these days, I thought I'd better check with Gilmore for the straight dope. The listed Omaha term for 'banana' is "htedhawe" (I had the syllables transposed). There are cognates in: Dakota: Tewape Omaha-Ponca: Tethawe (Gilmore's spelling) Winnebago: Tsherop (and a listed (unrelated) Pawnee term: Tukawiu). All the above are in Gilmore's spellings, which disregard aspiration, etc. The prototype would look something like *hte-ape or *hte-ope, with different intervocalic glides developing in different languages. The term actually refers to the tubers of Nelumbo lutea, the yellow lotus or water chinquapin, which was cooked for food. The Kaws call them 'yonkapins' (spelling phonetically -- the word isn't in my unabridged dictionary of English). The rhizome resembles a banana, thus the Omaha term after bananas were introduced. Oddly, the pawpaw is discussed in neither Gilmore or in the more recent "Edible Wild Plants of the Prairie" by KU's own Kelly Kindscher. Bob From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Mar 30 05:57:51 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:57:51 +0200 Subject: banana etc. Message-ID: That's what I know in Lakota: [zizi's^kopela] or just [s^ko'pela] what I'd translate as "little crooked yellow(s)" fr. zi' - yellow s^ko'pa - crooked s^kobya - make crooked (e.g. pa s^kopa - crooked nose) BTW, can anybody tell me what's "olive" in Lakota etc.? (translating a poem, I created wigli kan [wi'gli-kxaN] (fr. kxaNta, which sometimes is seen as a truncated form). Alfred From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed Mar 30 17:32:01 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:32:01 -0500 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' Message-ID: I need to correct some information I sent back in November: "I have this in my data for Asb: pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So it appears that the original example was an error. s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u but: s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not perceive wicha as referring to people. Just wanted to set the record straight. Linda From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Mar 30 17:37:58 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:37:58 -0600 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' In-Reply-To: <1112203921.424ae291d206a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: From my perspective and how I speak Dakota, your correction is accurate -Cantemaza de miye do. (neil mckay) Dakota Language Dept. University of Minnesota 612-624-6808 lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: >I need to correct some information I sent back in November: > >"I have this in my data for Asb: > >pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" > >I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other >data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above >example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other >sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So >it appears that the original example was an error. > >s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u > >but: > >s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' > >suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' > >Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she >says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of >situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a >different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is >used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not >perceive wicha as referring to people. > > >Just wanted to set the record straight. > >Linda > > > > > > >. > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Mar 30 18:26:22 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:26:22 -0700 Subject: argument structure of k'u 'give' In-Reply-To: <424AE3F6.20404@umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Linda -- that restores my faith in what I thought I knew. Your speaker was struggling to justify semantically something that has a purely grammatical explanation: there is no room in the verb for two object affixes except in the "transitive stative" forms, and they never use "wicha" as far as I know. Since the wicha-ma sequence is grammatically impossible, the speaker tries to make sense of it when she hears it; that can only happen if another meaning for "wicha" is pressed into service. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, cantemaza wrote: > From my perspective and how I speak Dakota, your correction is accurate > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > (neil mckay) > Dakota Language Dept. > University of Minnesota > 612-624-6808 > > lcumberl at indiana.edu wrote: > > >I need to correct some information I sent back in November: > > > >"I have this in my data for Asb: > > > >pusapina wiNc^ha-ma-k'u-pi 'they gave me the kittens'" > > > >I noted that several people found this odd, and when I was checking some other > >data with one of my consultants today - in fact, the one who gave me the above > >example - she rejected it when I repeated it to her. I tried several other > >sentences that might have produced wicha-ma-k'u and she rejected all of them. So > >it appears that the original example was an error. > > > >s^uka yamni mak'u 'he gave me three dogs' *wichamak'u > > > >but: > > > >s^uka yamni wicha-mnuha 'I have three dogs' > > > >suNkathaNka yamni ophe-wicha-wa-thuN 'I bought three horses' > > > >Her feeling is that, when used with k'u, wicha refers only to people, as she > >says "wicha is 'man', like those men, a bunch of people." She could not think of > >situation in which wich-ma-k'u would be acceptable. It's as if wicha has a > >different, more literal, meaning to her when it is used with k'u. When it is > >used with other verbs, as in the two acceptable sentences above, she does not > >perceive wicha as referring to people. > > > > > >Just wanted to set the record straight. > > > >Linda > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Mar 31 06:03:50 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:03:50 +0200 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. Message-ID: As far as I had understood this issue, it's the dative structure, i.e. the personal affix pointing to the "receiver": sunkawankan kin mni wicak'u (he gave water to the horses) - right? Alfred From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 31 14:20:22 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:22 -0700 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. In-Reply-To: <424B92C6.3080308@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: That's the way it works in languages that have datives for recipients. Many languages, like Lakhota, do not use datives for the recipient of the verb 'give': 'give' is syntactically transitive, not ditransitive; only two participants are indexed in the verb, and one of them is the recipient. The so-called accusative or direct object is not an argument. I would not call 'horses' in your example an indirect object in Lakhota -- it's clearly the direct object, from the point of view of the grammar of that language. Lakhota has unambiguous datives marked with -ki-, but this verb doesn't make use of them. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, [ISO-8859-1] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > As far as I had understood this issue, it's the dative structure, i.e. > the personal affix pointing to the "receiver": > sunkawankan kin mni wicak'u (he gave water to the horses) - right? > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Thu Mar 31 15:22:47 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:22:47 -0800 Subject: argument structure k'u etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Of course I agree with you that Lakhota 'give' only marks two arguments on the verb. But can you explain why you feel the patient (I agree with you that it doesn't seem right to call it either an accusative or a direct object) is not an argument? Is there syntactic evidence that, for example, in a sentence with three nouns ('The chief gave the horse to the woman', or the like) the patient ('horse') behaves syntactically different from 'woman'? Pam ROOD DAVID S wrote: >Many languages, like Lakhota, do not use datives for the recipient of the >verb 'give': 'give' is syntactically transitive, not ditransitive; only >two participants are indexed in the verb, and one of them is the >recipient. The so-called accusative or direct object is not an argument. > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 16:01:29 2005 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:01:29 -0800 Subject: Oto Message-ID: Dear Siouanists: I'm posting this on behalf of a young man of Oto ancestry who would like to go back to his roots. He is particularly interested in the Oto language. He wants to know if the language is still spoken somewhere, are least rudimentarily, and if there are any revitalization projects. Although Oto is officially extinct, he would appreciate any info or addresses of people he could contact (speakers, specialists at both scholarly and non-scholarly levels). I'd pass any incoming messages on to him. Regina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: