From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu May  5 16:40:47 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:40:47 -0600
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.5.MAY.2005.104047.0600.>

>>From a non-subscriber interested in Padouca.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:57:05 -0500
From: duncan jimmy <duncanj at unionps.org>
To: john.koontz at colorado.edu
Subject: Padoucah

... I noticed a discussion of Pa doucah.

I am not a linguist, but as an ethnohistorian, my older Osage informants from
the 1970's and 80;s  insisted this did not mean just the Comanche, but any
Indian (enemy) to the west. In the mourning ceremony, a scalp would be added
to the sacred hawk and a bit buried with the dead Osage. These scalps had to
come from the "west"  of where the tribe actually was at that time. Maggie
Irons (Osage) and Hazel Harper (Osage) insisted that the term uki tse be used
for related Indians; Ponca, Omaha, the various Sioux, etc,. Scalps must come
from "pa ducah" They once "explained" (not translated) the word as "heads
from which hair (scalp) could be used or taken" I was wondering if the
westward movement of the Siouans over time may have led to this word being '
left behind', So to speak.

Jim Duncan


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May  5 20:22:12 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:22:12 -0500
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.5.MAY.2005.152212.0500.>

Interesting -- thanks for the ethnohistorical
contribution.  This certainly looks like yet another
creative folk etymology and illustrates the fact that,
if you ask the speaker of a language to explain a
proper name that they don't have any real understanding
of, they make something up.  As is the case with
[pa'xoje~ ba'xoje] 'Ioway', they treat the /ppa-/ of
''Padouca'' as if it were 'head' and then try to find a
logical meaning for the rest, but like Mississippi and
''Mistersippi'', it doesn't quite jell.  The meaning
'Indian enemy to the West' fits with everything else we
know about the name though, and I take that part to be
accurate.  To some groups it seems to have become
specialized to Comanche or Apache, etc., but apparently
not the Osages.

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)


> >From a non-subscriber interested in Padouca.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:57:05 -0500
> From: duncan jimmy <duncanj at unionps.org>
> To: john.koontz at colorado.edu
> Subject: Padoucah
>
> ... I noticed a discussion of Pa doucah.
>
> I am not a linguist, but as an ethnohistorian, my
> older Osage informants from
> the 1970's and 80;s  insisted this did not mean just
> the Comanche, but any
> Indian (enemy) to the west. In the mourning ceremony,
> a scalp would be added
> to the sacred hawk and a bit buried with the dead
> Osage. These scalps had to
> come from the "west"  of where the tribe actually was
> at that time. Maggie
> Irons (Osage) and Hazel Harper (Osage) insisted that
> the term uki tse be used
> for related Indians; Ponca, Omaha, the various Sioux,
> etc,. Scalps must come
> from "pa ducah" They once "explained" (not
> translated) the word as "heads
> from which hair (scalp) could be used or taken" I was
> wondering if the
> westward movement of the Siouans over time may have
> led to this word being '
> left behind', So to speak.
>
> Jim Duncan
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May  8 04:40:49 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:40:49 -0600
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
Message-ID: <SAT.7.MAY.2005.224049.0600.>

I've assembled some notes on Francis LaFlesche's Village of Make-Believe
Whitemen for John Ludwickson and Ives Goddard that might be of interest to
at the Dhegiha folks.

Make Believe Whitemen

This expression actually appears c. 10 times, it turns out, in the Dorsey
texts.  It is glossed 'to act the whiteman' by Dorsey.  The idiom is wa'xe
ga'ghe, which is literally 'whiteman make', using 'make' in the sense of
'pretend to do, feign to be'.  As far as the contrast of x vs. gh in
wa'xe, note

91:69.3 wa'xe wa'gha=i 'they acted the whiteman'


The Village of Make-Believe Whitemen

The Omaha villages are listed in Dorsey 1970 (1884):337:  "The Omahas had
three villages after 1855.  Bi-ku'-de [Bikku'de or perhaps Bikhu'de] was
Gahige's village, where most of the people were.  WiN-dja'-ge [WiNj^a'ge]
was Standing Hawk's village, near the Mission.  JaN-c/a'-te [Z^aNdha'the]
was Sanssouci's village, near Decatur.  Frank LaFleche remembers one
occasion when WiNdjage challenged Bikude to play t.abe-gasi [ttabe'gasi,
the men's ballgame], and the former won."

Fletcher & LaFlesche 1972(1911):629-630 also refer to three villages, "one
in the southeastern part of the reservation, another (the largest) near
the agency; the third to the northeast not far from the banks of the
Missouri.  ... The Middle village, as the one near the agency was called,
was on the stream now known as Blackbird creek.

LaFlesche himself in The Middle Five 1978 (1900):xix-xx says "at the time
the Omahas were living near the Missouri River in three villages, some
four or five miles apart.  The one farthest south was known as
Ton'-won-ga-hae's [TtaNwaNgaghe] village; the people were called 'wood
eaters', because they cut and sold wood to the settlers who lived near
them.  The middle one was Ish'-ka-da-be's village, and the people
designated it as 'those who dwell in earth lodges', they having adhered to
the aborginal form of dwelling when they built their village.  The one to
the north and nearest the Mission was E-sta'-ma-za's [INs^tamaNze, or
Joseph LaFlesche] village, and the people were known as 'make-believe
white-men', because they built there houses after the fashion of the white
settlers."

I equate the villages as follows:

Vilage 1

Bikku'de, Gahige's (Dorsey)
Middle, most populous, near agency (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
Middle, Is^kadabi's, Earth Lodge Dwellers (LaFlesche)

Village 2

WiNj^a'ge, Standing Hawk's [Gdhe'daN NaN'z^iN] (Dorsey)
northeast, near Missouri (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
northern, near Mission, Make-Believe Whitemen (LaFlesche)

Village 3

Z^aNdhathe, Sanssouci's (Dorsey)
southeastern (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
southern, TtaNwaNgaghe's, Wood-Eaters (LaFlesche)

So, I think that WiNj^a'ge was the "Village of Make-Believe Whitemen."
(I have a tendency to remember this as Bikkude, but I believe WiNj^age is
correct.)  Let me state specifically that the Omaha and English
expressions don't seem to have anything to do with one another other than
refering to the same place.  Except in the case of Z^aNdhathe and
Wood-Eater, the Omaha names given by Dorsey don't seem to reflect the
names given in translation by Fletcher and LaFlesche.  So, the possible
implication in the HBNAI (13:401) concerning the glossing of bikkude and
wiNj^age are incorrect as far as I can see.  I'm not sure what the authors
intended here, however.  Perhaps simply a list of equations as above.

I believe z^aNdhathe 'wood eater' is the term for 'carpenter ant' (and
maybe 'termite') so there may be a bit of humor in the naming here. HBNAI
sates that Z^aNdhathe's wood was being sold to steamboats for fuel.

I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g., bikhuj^e would mean
'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the implication of such a name
would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.

For what it's worth, 'Earthlodge' would be maNdhiN'tti, and '(in the)
Middle' might be udhiz^aN(tta) or i'daNbe, though there are a number of
ways to say something like this and I'm not at all sure what would be
idiomatic in the context of the village name.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May  8 05:03:35 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:03:35 -0600
Subject: Dakotan ''wichasha'' 'man'.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0504281855220.17343@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.MAY.2005.230335.0600.>

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
> I guess there's no reason why wic^ha-s^a 'man-red' wouldn't work
> analytically, though I'd feel better if I could explain the variants
> wic^hasta, etc., in the same breath.  ...

Wic^has^ta.  (Though I think s^ > s in Stoney?)

> One possibility that occurs to me is that wic^has^a is a punning
> substitution for wic^hasta.  ...

Or, rather, for wic^has^ta.

Or even just a lexical substitution of 'red man' for 'man + ???'.  Note
that -s^ta might be preceived as resembling -ska 'white'.

> If you look at Dhegiha forms, which as far as 'person' proper aren't
> cognate, you'd expect second elements in 'person' compounds to be
> something meaning 'little', cf., nikkas^iNga, s^iNgaz^iNga, etc.
>
> As far as -sta, could this be a fricative-grading variant of -xta in the
> sense 'real, true'?

The actual Dakotan enclitic here is =xc^A, though it's probably reasonable
to see it as deriving from earlier *=xta.

I should add that Bob Rankin, intrigued by this possibility, looked
through the SA Buechel files for any trace of putative *=s^ta with no luck
at all.  I looked in various grammatical references for something like
=sta or =s^ta in any sense with no luck either.  So this remains a rather
far-fetched suggestion.

Constantine Chmielnicky's observation that there are parallels for
reduction of Sa -s^tV to Te -s^V (in accentually weak locations, it
seems), is probably better supported and more plausible.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue May 10 02:04:15 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:04:15 -0600
Subject: WiNj^age (Re: Make-Believe in Omaha)
Message-ID: <MON.9.MAY.2005.200415.0600.>

I've done some additional pondering on the toponym WiNj^age for 'Village
of Make-Believe Whitemen'.

This is pretty strained, but it's the best I've been able to come up with.
(I have asked some Omaha speakers about this name in the past, but nobody
had any ideas at the time.  Obviously I haven't asked far and wide.)

wiN 'one'

da 'what, something indefinite', cf., da in edadaN, iNdadaN 'what' or
dadaN 'what, something' (discussed on the list in the past)

ge 'the (scattered inanimate)'

The dubious part is the middle da.  In edadaN 'what specific thing' and
iNdadaN 'what indefinite thing' the e- and iN are essentially
demonstratives, and =daN may be a particle that occurs elsewhere as a
contingency marker at the end of clauses, and in things like adaN
'therefore'.  The base form dadaN is mostly used in the sense of
'something'.

The form da- corresponds to Dakota ta- in taku 'what' and Winnebago j^aa-
in j^aagu 'what'.  (In Dakota, all the indefinite pronouns use ta or
something similar as their base.)  I think the final -ku and -gu in these
matches OP gu 'yonder', though you'd expect -ko and -go in a regular
correspondence.

It also occurs in OP agudi 'where' which looks to be a- 'indefinite,
interrogative' -gu- 'yonder' -di 'in, at', so, historically, this might be
something like "where away" or "where off," while the Dakota and Winnebago
what-forms would be historically something like "what yonder."
Expressions of this nature are not without parallel in English, but I have
no general information on the typology and evolution of demonstratives and
interrogatives.

The da element also occurs (as e=da) in OP ede 'what did he say' <
e=d(a)=e=e.  The construction there is obscured by vowel contractions.
Clearer is edes^e 'what did you say' < e=da=e=s^e.  Compare e 'he said' <
e=e (usually a=i 'he (proximate) said') and es^e 'you said' < e=s^e.
Verbs of saying in Siouan languages all start with equivalents of OP e
'the aforesaid' or ga 'the following'.  It's as if the 'that' in 'he said
that' or the 'what' in 'what he said was' had gotten glommed onto 'to
say'.  Forms for 'to say what' (used in questions) are also widespread.
Dakota has analogs, too.  (Again, this has been discussed on the list
before.)

So, if this assessment is correct, wiNj^age is a diminutive (essentially
pejorative) version of wiNda=ge which might be something like 'the
(little) scattered ones of whatever nature'.  I suppose such a name might
be a condescending or even contemptuous reference to the novel dwellings.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May 12 16:46:41 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:46:41 -0500
Subject: FW: Word Inquiry
Message-ID: <THU.12.MAY.2005.114641.0500.>

All,

I have had this inquiry from Arkansas about a possible place or tribal
name MANATAKA.  I don't recognize it.  Do any of you?  Especially the
Algonquianists, given that it occurs in the NE as a placename....

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: aihsc [mailto:aihsc at gonmail.com]

Dear Dr. Rankin,

We are trying to track down the possible origin of a
place name word.  I understand that the bastardization
and changes from original American Indian words often
makes it either difficult or impossible to make
definite connections.

However, this is rather important to us in that it
involves a fraudulent American Indian organization in
Arkansas - the "Manataka American Indian Council".
They are using the word both as part of their name and
the original name of the area where they are located -
Hot Springs, Arkansas.

The current spelling of the word is "Manataka".  Past
spellings might have included "Mahnatakah" and
"Monataukau".

There is a Lake Manataka in Pennsylvania, and there
were was a Manataka chapter of the Improved Order of
Red Men at Hot Springs, Arkansas in the late 1800's
and early 1900's.  We don't know at this time if there
were IORM Manataka chapters in other states, but we
are looking into the possibility.  There was also a
Monatauk tribe in the Long Island area.

The organization in question claims that the word
means "Place of Peace", which we find highly unlikely.
 Tooker's possible meaning of "manatauk", which might
be the origin of our word, is an observation point.
However, we understand that his work is highly suspect
today.

The organization also states that the word had been
"credited to the Kaw in 1789 by the French, but there
is no evidence for this claim".  In addition, I don't
believe that the Kaw ever made it that far south.

Any help or suggestion that you might have in
unraveling the origin and original definition of
"Manataka" would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Dave Lowe
American Indian Heritage Support Center
Bentonville, AR


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May 12 16:49:46 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:49:46 -0500
Subject: FW: American Philosophical Society Launches New Grant Program
Message-ID: <THU.12.MAY.2005.114946.0500.>

Just for everyone's information.
 
Bob
 
 
-----Original Message-----




 <http://pull.xmr3.com/p/2343-2508/63428237/newseal1.gif> 

The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research

The American Philosophical Society (APS), the oldest learned society in
North America and sponsor of Lewis and Clark's Corps of Discovery in
1804, announces a new program of research grants in support of graduate
students, post-doctoral students, and junior and senior scientists and
scholars undertaking field studies for their theses or other projects.

The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research was
established through the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for
Basic Science, thanks to a benefaction from Dr. Ascherman that is
administered by Stanford University. Dr. Ascherman, who passed away in
November 2004, was a noted surgeon and philanthropist in San Francisco.
Dr. Blumberg, a Distinguished Scientist at Fox Chase Cancer Center in
Philadelphia, former Director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute, and
Nobel Prize in Medicine recipient in 1976, initiated the establishment
of the Lewis and Clark Fund.

SCOPE The Lewis and Clark Fund encourages exploratory field studies for
the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative
stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited
from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as
archeology, anthropology, astrobiology and space science, biology,
ecology, geography, geology, oceanography, and paleontology, but grants
will not be restricted to these fields.

ELIGIBILITY Grants are available to graduate students, post-doctoral
students, junior and senior scientists, and social scientists who wish
to participate in field studies for their theses or for other purposes.
Undergraduates are not eligible. A graduate student applicant should ask
his or her academic supervisor or field trip leader to write one of the
two letters of recommendation, specifying the role of the student in the
field trip and the educational contribution of the trip. Budgets should
be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field
equipment. U.S. nationals and others may apply. Funding will be given
foreign nationals only for projects within the United States or for
field studies elsewhere originating from a U.S. institution.

AWARD Amounts will depend on travel costs but will ordinarily be in the
range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. 

DEADLINE There is no deadline. Applications may be submitted at any
time, and the Committee for the Lewis and Clark Fund will evaluate
applications several times during the year.

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www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm
<http://pull.xmr3.com/p/2343-2788/63428231/Applications_available.html>
. The completed application is to be sent as an e-mail attachment to the
address on the form. 

The American Philosophical Society
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  _____  

Thank you very much for helping us to spread word of our program. If you
post our program announcement in electronic newsletters, please be sure
to say that all information is available at our website,
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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Mon May 16 02:54:37 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:54:37 -0500
Subject: OSAGE IROSHKA SPRING DANCE DATES
Message-ID: <SUN.15.MAY.2005.215437.0500.>

    For Your Information and as it relates to the
Siouian Conference, Kaw City, Okla.

1st weekend of June,  6/2nd ~ 5th.  GreyHorse Community.
2nd weekend of June,  6/9th ~ 12th.  SKIPS.
3rd weekend of June,  6/16th ~ 19th.  Hominy Community.
4th weekend of June,  6/23rd ~ 26th.  Pawkhuska Community.


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Fri May 20 14:54:28 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:54:28 -0500
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.095428.0500.>

What is the web address to this Learning Aids Page?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)


> The following is extracted from the current SSILA newsletter.  Though a
> number of members of the Siouan List are also SSILA members, it seems to
> me that the SSILA non-members on the list might be interested in this.
>
> =============
>
> * Learning Aids update
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> As many of you will know, the SSILA website has a "Learning Aids" page,
> with listings of pedagogical materials--primers, dictionaries, tapes,
> lessons, etc.--for various American Indian languages.  As many of you
> may also know, these listings are terribly out of date.  A great many
> of the books and tapes announced there are no long available, or the
> prices have changed, or the ordering addresses have long since been
> changed.
>
> We are now in the process of reviewing and updating the entire Learning
> Aids page.  To help us in this daunting task, could we ask the following
> of you?
>
> (1) If you know for certain that a listing on the Learning Aids page
> is incorrect in some way, please let us know the specifics.
>
> (2) If you are the publisher or distributor of learning materials on
> some specific language or languages:  please send us a description of
> the materials (books, tapes, CDs, videos, etc.), the prices you are
> asking, and ordering instructions.  If you have a website from which
> these materials can be ordered, please let us know the address.  If
> you accept payments only by mail, let us know the forms of payment
> you accept (check, credit card, etc.)
>
> (3) If you have purchased or otherwise know about some learning
> materials that you would recommend for a particular language:  please
> send us the details, if possible including where the materials can
> be obtained.
>
> (4) If you are reasonably familiar with materials in a certain area
> (e.g., Oklahoma languages) or on a particular group of languages
> (e.g., Athabaskan languages), and have the time to spare, we would
> be *most* grateful if you could serve as a contributing editor for
> the Learning Aids page.
>
> Spearheading this project will be the SSILA website manager, Ardis
> Eschenberg, whom you can contact at <ardisrachel at gmail.com>.  You can
> also contact the Bulletin editor, Victor Golla, at <golla at ssila.org>.
>
> We look forward to hearing from you!
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri May 20 19:28:31 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:28:31 -0500
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.142831.0500.>

I'd just try www.ssila.org and then follow the menus to
the learning materials page(s).

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 21 00:42:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:42:27 -0600
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <002501c55d72$1c143b30$22b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.184227.0600.>

On Fri, 20 May 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> I'd just try www.ssila.org and then follow the menus to
> the learning materials page(s).

Yes.  The site is set up so that if you try to get at the URLs for
internal pages by the usual techniques you just get http://www.ssila.org.
You can learn the actual URLs with a little effort, but it's best to go to
the top and tunnel down since that seems to be the logic in force.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 21 03:45:21 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:45:21 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.214521.0600.>

This was set this aside to look up the archive link a little while ago and
here it is 6 months later!

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote:
> Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
> query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
> 'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
> plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.

I'm sure there's a connection.  In fact, there was a discussion of this in
2001 that you can consult in the list archives at:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=year+earth&s=&f=&a=&b=

In general these terms are homophonous or nearly so throughout the family
and in a lot of other places, too.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun May 22 09:45:52 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:45:52 +0200
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <SUN.22.MAY.2005.114552.0200.>

Thanks for your reply, John, and pointing to the earlier thread.

I do not tend to believe in mere homophony in this case because the
underlying idea being too universal (not only in Siouan languages) and
'obvious'.

Looking at the 'world/earth' (maka) around, a people still bound to and
aware of nature easily realizes the (cyclical) changes "on maka" (->
omaka?), so it seems quite natural relating these two ideas to each
other (cf. the names of the months in Dakota etc., but also in many
other languages, also the germanic ones before christianisation).

The hint to 'world' (somewhere on this listserve) is interesting. This
is what my 'Kluge' gives so far:
"Welt (< 8. Jh.) Mhd. welt, wer(e)lt, ahd. weralt, andfrk. werold aus
wg. *wira-aldô 'Zeitalter, Welt', auch in ae. weorold, afr. warld
Zusammensetzung aus g. *wera- 'Mann, Mensch' in gt. wair, anord. verr,
ae. wer, as. wer, ahd. wer; außergermanisch air. fer, l. vir und (...)
ai. virá (the i should be long), lit. vyras und als zweites Glied ein
Wort, das zu 'alt' gehört. (...)"

So, 'world' is composed of 'man/human' and 'old' (age) which means that
space (world/earth/maka) and time (age/era/'Zeitalter'/year/omaka etc.)
obviously can be understood as closely related.
This is the case also in Chinese language (and thinking!): the modern
word for 'world' is _shijie_ [shi4-jie4] where _shi_ means the
'generation' [of a man] (i.e. thirty years) - thus referring to 'man'
and to 'time' -, and _jie_ has the meaning of 'boundary' - thus
referring to 'space' (and, of course, again to 'man' also).

Please excuse my long-winded explanation against random homophony ;-)

Alfred




 > I'm sure there's a connection.  In fact, there was a discussion of
this in
2001 that you can consult in the list archives at:


http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=year+earth&s=&f=&a=&b=


In general these terms are homophonous or nearly so throughout the family
and in a lot of other places, too. <<


 >> BTW, I have a question to the Siouanist experts here:
Dealing with Dell Hymes' work "In vain I tried to tell you", recently, I
ran into this statement:
"In winter the peripheral world of supernatural power and myth came
closer, spirit-power was sought and initiations into the control of
power held, and myths formally told. Myths, in fact, were not to be told
in summer for fear of rattlesnake bite. With spring, Chinookans, like
flowers, emerged from underground to a new world. The root for "world,
country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning "year", pointing up
the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences of the
seasonal round." (p. 21)

Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.<<<<

Alfred
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon May 23 23:59:22 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:59:22 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <429054D0.9050209@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.23.MAY.2005.175922.0600.>

On Sun, 22 May 2005, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote:
> I do not tend to believe in mere homophony in this case ...

No, I doubt it's simple homophony either.  As you suggest there is
probably a common association of ideas and a derivational basis for the
similarity.


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed May 25 18:41:56 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:41:56 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.134156.0500.>

The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older name
for the Potawatomi?
There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is attached
to the term that I am familiar with.
Jimm


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed May 25 19:17:35 2005
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:17:35 -0700
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.121735.0700.>

No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly spoke
a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity as
a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
century.

No definite sample of the Mascouten language is known, but there are several
statements in the Jesuit Relations that they spoke the same language as the
Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo.

A recently-discovered 1792 vocabulary by John Heckewelder looks a lot like
Sauk, Fox, and Kickapoo, but doesn't quite match any of them. Ives has
theorized that it might actually be Mascouten. His article on this is in the
Proceedings of the Algonquian Conference, volume 34.

best,
David


> The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older name
> for the Potawatomi?
> There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
> Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
> I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is attached
> to the term that I am familiar with.
> Jimm
>
>
>
>


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed May 25 20:15:57 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:15:57 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.151557.0500.>

Thanks, Dave, for clearifying a long standing confusion.
Have a great Mem Day weekend.
Jimm

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Costa" <pankihtamwa at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>; <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: MASCOUTIN


> No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly
> spoke
> a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity
> as
> a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
> century.
>
> No definite sample of the Mascouten language is known, but there are
> several
> statements in the Jesuit Relations that they spoke the same language as
> the
> Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo.
>
> A recently-discovered 1792 vocabulary by John Heckewelder looks a lot like
> Sauk, Fox, and Kickapoo, but doesn't quite match any of them. Ives has
> theorized that it might actually be Mascouten. His article on this is in
> the
> Proceedings of the Algonquian Conference, volume 34.
>
> best,
> David
>
>
>> The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older
>> name
>> for the Potawatomi?
>> There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
>> Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
>> I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is
>> attached
>> to the term that I am familiar with.
>> Jimm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu May 26 02:10:42 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:10:42 -0600
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <E1Db1Ne-000677-00@pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.201042.0600.>

On Wed, 25 May 2005, David Costa wrote:
> No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly spoke
> a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity as
> a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
> century.

Isn't there a long history of confusion on this score connected with
alternate etymologies of Mascoutin, "People of the Fire/Prarie" and
application of one of these names (the latter?) to the Potawatomi?  I
remember the ingredients, as it were, but not the details.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu May 26 11:53:22 2005
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:53:22 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0505252008111.21228@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.MAY.2005.065322.0500.>

Quoting Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>:
>
> Isn't there a long history of confusion on this score connected with
> alternate etymologies of Mascoutin, "People of the Fire/Prarie" and
> application of one of these names (the latter?) to the Potawatomi?  I
> remember the ingredients, as it were, but not the details.
>
>

Exactly, John. Early scholars misidentified the Mascouten and this
misidentification persisted until 1972 when Ives brought out his "Historical
and Philological Evidence Regarding the Identification of the Mascouten”
(Ethnohistory 19, no.2 (1972): 123-34).

I have to be somewhere in two minutes, but I'll fill this in later.

Michael


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu May 26 15:12:32 2005
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:12:32 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <THU.26.MAY.2005.101232.0500.>

The Mascouten were first identified in history by names that the Huron applied
to them. One of these, a reference to the late prehistoric location of the
Mascouten in the southwestern Lake Erie watershed, is recorded in the form
<Totontaratonhronon>, which means ‘people where the lake disappears’.
(Translation by Blair Rudes, personal communication)

There is also another, and quite famous, Huron tribal name for the Mascouten,
written historically by the French as <a,tsistaee,ronnon>(The commas should be
under the preceding vowels and facing the other direction). This means "people
of the place where there is fire". (Also a translation by Blair Rudes.) This
attestation has particular historical importance since it was this term,
translated by the French to "les Gens du Feu" (the People of the Fire), that
was also the generic French name in the **early 1600s** for all the Central
Algonquian-speaking tribes living west of Lake Erie in the area now known as
southern Michigan and northwestern Ohio. The term seems to refer to the bison
hunting practices of the lower Great Lakes Algonquian peoples who would
intentionally start prairie fires both to create “parklands” supporting
vegetation that would attract the animals and to drive the animals in the
hunt. The term latter applied specifically to the Mascouten.

Then came along the incorrect analysis of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/ and
Potawatomi /potewatmi/ as "he makes a fire". (The ethnonym in fact has no
known analysis.) But this interpretation naturally got tied into "Les Gens du
Feu" and hence the Mascouten. As I mentioned earlier today, however, Ives
Goddard sorted this out in his 1972 paper.

The precise origin of the ethnonym “Mascouten” is not known, but its meaning
is clear. “Mascouten” is definitely cognate with Old
Illinois /maskoteenta/ ‘small-prairie person’. This name appears to allude to
the Prairie Peninsula of southwestern Michigan or even to small prairies in
northwestern Ohio. In late prehistory the Mascouten are thought to have lived
along the western shores of Lake Erie as members of what archaeologists term
the Sandusky Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Later, during part of the second
half of the seventeenth century the Miami and the Mascouten, war refugees,
shared a town on the upper Fox River near present-day Berlin, Wisconsin.
Then, from the late 1600s through the 1700s the Mascouten were divided into
basically two groups. In the eighteenth century, one lived on the Wabash River
below the Wea (near present-day Lafayette) and was allied with the latter and
the neighboring Piankashaw. The other was allied with the Fox and Kickapoo and
lived generally in what is now Illinois. Reduced in number by warfare and
European-introduced contagions, the Mascouten people are thought to have
merged with their linguistic and cultural cousins, the Vermillion Kickapoo,
and disappeared as a tribe known as the Mascouten. However, as Dave mentioned
yesterday, there is attractive evidence that some Mascouten continued as a
distinct linguistic entity at least into the last decade of the eighteenth
century.


Michael


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 28 20:15:47 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:15:47 -0600
Subject: Omaha Name with Unsual Word for 'Good'
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.141547.0600.>

One of the little noticeable differences between Dhegiha languages is the
word for 'good'.  Omaha-Ponca has u'daN, Osage has dha'gdhiN or dha'liN
(pronounceced dha'dliN - for a good time ask somebody who knows Osage to
say 'very good'), Kaw has ya'le or ya'li (the same form as Osage, but with
the Kaw sound changes), Quapaw has ho'ttaN.  In this case, OP and Qu
pattern together, as do Os and Ks.

Note that they all have some variant on ppiaz^i 'bad' from earlier ppi
'good' + az^i 'not' as well as occasional other fossilized cases of ppi
'good', from *hpi 'good', compare Dakotan phi'c^a 'good', IO phi' 'good',
Wi piNiN' 'good'.

Also, Osage has otaN' 'war honor' (i.e., 'coup'), which explains the OP
and Qu forms, though not the initial h- of the latter (I think, but Quapaw
is always full of surprises).

So, I was interested to notice this Omaha name used in the KkaNze clan
(Fletcher & LaFlesche, p.  171):  pahi'thagthiN (ppahiN' dha'gdhiN)
glossed 'good hair'.  Of course, the name could be borrowed from another
Dhegiha language, but perhaps it's just a leftover from earlier dha'gdhiN
'good', no longer attested.  Or perhaps dha'gdhiN is still around, but
uncommon, and simply doesn't happen occur in the Dorsey texts or
Swetland-Stabler dictionary.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 28 20:49:12 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:49:12 -0600
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <1117120352.4295e76072f59@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.144912.0600.>

On Thu, 26 May 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote:
> The precise origin of the ethnonym “Mascouten” is not known, but its
> meaning is clear. “Mascouten” is definitely cognate with Old Illinois
> /maskoteenta/ ‘small-prairie person’. This name appears to allude to the
> Prairie Peninsula of southwestern Michigan or even to small prairies in
> northwestern Ohio.

Or, in short, to those parklands created by burning over the grasslands to
kill the saplings!  Isn't the term Prairie Peninsula applied to the tall
grass prairie east of the Mississippi and between the Ohio and Great Lakes
generally?

Could the diminutive here be in opposition to another 'prairie people'
group?  In other words, could it apply to the ethnic group as opposed to
the prairies?  Analogies would be Yankton (ihaNk-thuNwaN 'end people') and
Yankto*nais* (ihaNk-thuNwaN=*na* 'little end people'), or Shahi(ya) 'Cree'
(obsolete usage)  vs. Shahiye=na 'Cheyenne, i.e., Little Cree', or, for
that matter, Nottoway 'Iroquois' vs.  Nadou*ess*ioux 'Sioux'?  I may not
be bounding the diminutive morpheme correctly in Algonquian!

There is a notable analogy to the 'Prairie People' in Siouan nomenclature,
though I don't mean to suggest that it would be the group relative to
which the Mascouten could perhaps be 'little' or 'lesser prairie people'.

This analogy is Teton, of course.  This is thi-thuNwaN or thi-people
today, but seems earlier to have been thiN-thuNwaN (Riggs, Grammar, p.
161), said to be contracted from thiNta 'prairie', not thi 'dwell(ing)'.
(For similar glosses by others, see Ray DeMallie's Sioux Until 1850 (HBNAI
13:718-760), e.g., LeSueur 1699-1702, mentioned p. 723.

I suspect that this original form wasn't some arbitrary contraction, but
derives with only slight irregularity from something like *thiNl=thuNwaN,
with thiNl- (or thiNd-, the regularly formed combining form of thiNta
'prairie' (Riggs, p. 469, but not carried over into Buechel), with the -l
(or -d) coming out [n] after a nasal vowel.  Compare the handling of
c^haNte' 'heart' in c^haNl-was^te 'happy'.  I suspect that in this context
it would be easy to lose that -n in a context like VN__#th, while perhaps
its historical presence also helps explain the tendency of the root in
this form to denasalize.

The Proto-Dhegiha form *htaNte, cf. OP ttaN'de 'ground, ground surface,
soil', Os htoN'ce 'earth or ground; prairie without trees', Ks ttaN'j^e
'ground' seems to be a reasonable if slightly irregular cognate of Dakotan
thiNta.  The change in the root vowel iN in the latter is what's unusual,
but this occurs elsewhere, too, e.g.,

'shoe' Da haN'pa/thahaN'pe '~/his ~', OP hiNbe', hiN'be, Os hoNbe', Ks
hoNbe', Qu hoNbe' (another form entirely is used in IO and Wi, cf. IO
agu'j^e, Wi waguj^e');

'grizzly' Da ma(N)tho' (but expect *maNho'?), OP maNc^hu', Os miNcho, Ks
miNc^ho', Qu moNc^ho', IO ma(N)tho', Wi maNc^o';

'bow' Dakota ita'(zipa), by reanalysis of *miNta+zipa as first person
possessive, OP maN'de, Os miN'ce, Ks miN'j^e, Qu maN'tte, IO
 maNhdu < *maNktu < *maNtku by a regular metathesis, Wi maNaNc^gu'.

The main difficulty here is that the vowel change in question is irregular
as to which language it occurs in.  And under the circumstances it is hard
to say which vowel is changing to which, though I tend to assume majority
rule aN is original in each case and iN is the innovation.

The last set - 'bow' - is an Algonquian loan, or perhaps better, a
collection of Algonquian loans, which may to some extent explain the
vowel, i.e., maNt ~ miNt (or *waNt ~ *wiNt) reflects *ment in the
Algonquian source languages.  I'm not aware of any of the other examples
as loans, though 'grizzly' has the additional oddity of *th not becoming h
in Dakotan (compare Dakota phehaN vs. OP ppethaN < *hpethaN 'crane', or
Dakota hi vs. OP thi < *thi 'arrive here').  Maybe all of the aN ~ iN
forms with their oddities are also loans, even if we don't know the
sources in some cases.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May 29 03:01:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:01:27 -0600
Subject: Dh
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.210127.0600.>

Students of Dhegiha phonology, or of Siouan phonology generally, may be
interested in:

Starks, Donna; Ballard, Elaine.  2005.  Woods Cree /<edh>/:  An Unusual
Type of Sonorant.  IJAL 71.1 (January 2005):  102-115.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun May 29 15:52:26 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:52:26 -0500
Subject: Omaha Name with Unsual Word for 'Good'
Message-ID: <SUN.29.MAY.2005.105226.0500.>

The /daN/ of daNhe' in Kansa and the /taN/ of Osage are
probably also related.  In Kaw daNhe' + POSITIONAL  is
the way you ask 'are you OK?' or 'how are you?'  There
is a long disquisition on the term in La Flesche's
Osage Dictionary too.  As John says, it's the
'goodness' that's all tied up with concepts of honor
and duty.  I suspect that dhaagdhiN is goodness in the
sense of 'pleasant', as in Kaw blaN yaaliN 'good
smelling'.  It's interesting how the two have gotten
generalized in the different subgroups.  And I can't
account for the initial H in Quapaw either.  (The QU
gemination is normal for post-accentual position in
this ''Sicilian-of-the-Siouan-Languages''.)
Bob

> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Omaha Name with Unsual
> Word for 'Good'

I see KU's spam filter is still assigning John a score
of eight stars.

> One of the little noticeable differences between
> Dhegiha languages is the
> word for 'good'.  Omaha-Ponca has u'daN, Osage has
> dha'gdhiN or dha'liN
> (pronounceced dha'dliN - for a good time ask somebody
> who knows Osage to
> say 'very good'), Kaw has ya'le or ya'li (the same
> form as Osage, but with
> the Kaw sound changes), Quapaw has ho'ttaN.  In this
> case, OP and Qu
> pattern together, as do Os and Ks.
>
> Note that they all have some variant on ppiaz^i 'bad'
> from earlier ppi
> 'good' + az^i 'not' as well as occasional other
> fossilized cases of ppi
> 'good', from *hpi 'good', compare Dakotan phi'c^a
> 'good', IO phi' 'good',
> Wi piNiN' 'good'.
>
> Also, Osage has otaN' 'war honor' (i.e., 'coup'),
> which explains the OP
> and Qu forms, though not the initial h- of the latter
> (I think, but Quapaw
> is always full of surprises).
>
> So, I was interested to notice this Omaha name used
> in the KkaNze clan
> (Fletcher & LaFlesche, p.  171):  pahi'thagthiN
> (ppahiN' dha'gdhiN)
> glossed 'good hair'.  Of course, the name could be
> borrowed from another
> Dhegiha language, but perhaps it's just a leftover
> from earlier dha'gdhiN
> 'good', no longer attested.  Or perhaps dha'gdhiN is
> still around, but
> uncommon, and simply doesn't happen occur in the
> Dorsey texts or
> Swetland-Stabler dictionary.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue May 31 14:57:40 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:57:40 -0600
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0505072230080.28922@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.085740.0600.>

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
> I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g., bikhuj^e would mean
> 'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the implication of such a name
> would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.

It should be noted that if we take the form as a native Omaha-Ponca word,
then it would apear to mean 'to perform the action (or reach the state)
"kkude" by pressing'.  However, I have been unable to find any other
examples of -kkude.  The closest is the *-hkut-e stem meaning 'to shoot',
which becomes -kkide in OP by the regular shift of *u to i.

In a sense, then, the meaning of bikkude may be quite clear, we just don't
know what it is!

Another possibility is that the word involves some fairly sever
contractions that I'm not picking up on.

Again, I've asked a few people what bikkude might mean, but no one had any
ideas at the time.

I haven't actually looked any of the names up in Dorsey's slip file!


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue May 31 15:42:52 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:42:52 -0500
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.104252.0500.>

The root could be cognate with Dakotan /-khota/, as in
dakhota, lakhota, nakhoda, etc.  Other Dhegiha cognates
would be OS -hkoce, KS -kkoje, QU -kkotte/, and, as you
say, IO -khoje.  Probably Hochunk -ko(o)c.  Any items
turn up in any of those languages?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Village of Make Believe Whitemen


> On Sat, 7 May 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
>> I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g.,
>> bikhuj^e would mean
>> 'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the
>> implication of such a name
>> would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.
>
> It should be noted that if we take the form as a
> native Omaha-Ponca word,
> then it would apear to mean 'to perform the action
> (or reach the state)
> "kkude" by pressing'.  However, I have been unable to
> find any other
> examples of -kkude.  The closest is the *-hkut-e stem
> meaning 'to shoot',
> which becomes -kkide in OP by the regular shift of *u
> to i.
>
> In a sense, then, the meaning of bikkude may be quite
> clear, we just don't
> know what it is!
>
> Another possibility is that the word involves some
> fairly sever
> contractions that I'm not picking up on.
>
> Again, I've asked a few people what bikkude might
> mean, but no one had any
> ideas at the time.
>
> I haven't actually looked any of the names up in
> Dorsey's slip file!
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue May 31 18:12:21 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:12:21 -0500
Subject: bikkude
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.131221.0500.>

I don't think what I said about potential cognates for John's /bikkode/
[bikkude] came out the way I intended.  Dakotan /-khota/ is indeed a
potential match for Omaha /-kkode/, pronounced [-kkude], because /-e/ >
/-a/ by analogy in Dakota.  BUT the actual Dakotan morpheme /-khota/,
with its allomorph /khola/ 'friend' has an organic final /-a/, and so
would have /-a/ in all the Dhegiha dialects.  Thus the Omaha word cannot
be an actual cognate with 'friend'.  It has to come from somewhere else.
And it would be in homonymic clash with khota (the allomorph of
'friend') in Dakotan.

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu May  5 16:40:47 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:40:47 -0600
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.5.MAY.2005.104047.0600.>

>>From a non-subscriber interested in Padouca.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:57:05 -0500
From: duncan jimmy <duncanj at unionps.org>
To: john.koontz at colorado.edu
Subject: Padoucah

... I noticed a discussion of Pa doucah.

I am not a linguist, but as an ethnohistorian, my older Osage informants from
the 1970's and 80;s  insisted this did not mean just the Comanche, but any
Indian (enemy) to the west. In the mourning ceremony, a scalp would be added
to the sacred hawk and a bit buried with the dead Osage. These scalps had to
come from the "west"  of where the tribe actually was at that time. Maggie
Irons (Osage) and Hazel Harper (Osage) insisted that the term uki tse be used
for related Indians; Ponca, Omaha, the various Sioux, etc,. Scalps must come
from "pa ducah" They once "explained" (not translated) the word as "heads
from which hair (scalp) could be used or taken" I was wondering if the
westward movement of the Siouans over time may have led to this word being '
left behind', So to speak.

Jim Duncan


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May  5 20:22:12 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:22:12 -0500
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.5.MAY.2005.152212.0500.>

Interesting -- thanks for the ethnohistorical
contribution.  This certainly looks like yet another
creative folk etymology and illustrates the fact that,
if you ask the speaker of a language to explain a
proper name that they don't have any real understanding
of, they make something up.  As is the case with
[pa'xoje~ ba'xoje] 'Ioway', they treat the /ppa-/ of
''Padouca'' as if it were 'head' and then try to find a
logical meaning for the rest, but like Mississippi and
''Mistersippi'', it doesn't quite jell.  The meaning
'Indian enemy to the West' fits with everything else we
know about the name though, and I take that part to be
accurate.  To some groups it seems to have become
specialized to Comanche or Apache, etc., but apparently
not the Osages.

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Padoucah (fwd)


> >From a non-subscriber interested in Padouca.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:57:05 -0500
> From: duncan jimmy <duncanj at unionps.org>
> To: john.koontz at colorado.edu
> Subject: Padoucah
>
> ... I noticed a discussion of Pa doucah.
>
> I am not a linguist, but as an ethnohistorian, my
> older Osage informants from
> the 1970's and 80;s  insisted this did not mean just
> the Comanche, but any
> Indian (enemy) to the west. In the mourning ceremony,
> a scalp would be added
> to the sacred hawk and a bit buried with the dead
> Osage. These scalps had to
> come from the "west"  of where the tribe actually was
> at that time. Maggie
> Irons (Osage) and Hazel Harper (Osage) insisted that
> the term uki tse be used
> for related Indians; Ponca, Omaha, the various Sioux,
> etc,. Scalps must come
> from "pa ducah" They once "explained" (not
> translated) the word as "heads
> from which hair (scalp) could be used or taken" I was
> wondering if the
> westward movement of the Siouans over time may have
> led to this word being '
> left behind', So to speak.
>
> Jim Duncan
>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May  8 04:40:49 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:40:49 -0600
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
Message-ID: <SAT.7.MAY.2005.224049.0600.>

I've assembled some notes on Francis LaFlesche's Village of Make-Believe
Whitemen for John Ludwickson and Ives Goddard that might be of interest to
at the Dhegiha folks.

Make Believe Whitemen

This expression actually appears c. 10 times, it turns out, in the Dorsey
texts.  It is glossed 'to act the whiteman' by Dorsey.  The idiom is wa'xe
ga'ghe, which is literally 'whiteman make', using 'make' in the sense of
'pretend to do, feign to be'.  As far as the contrast of x vs. gh in
wa'xe, note

91:69.3 wa'xe wa'gha=i 'they acted the whiteman'


The Village of Make-Believe Whitemen

The Omaha villages are listed in Dorsey 1970 (1884):337:  "The Omahas had
three villages after 1855.  Bi-ku'-de [Bikku'de or perhaps Bikhu'de] was
Gahige's village, where most of the people were.  WiN-dja'-ge [WiNj^a'ge]
was Standing Hawk's village, near the Mission.  JaN-c/a'-te [Z^aNdha'the]
was Sanssouci's village, near Decatur.  Frank LaFleche remembers one
occasion when WiNdjage challenged Bikude to play t.abe-gasi [ttabe'gasi,
the men's ballgame], and the former won."

Fletcher & LaFlesche 1972(1911):629-630 also refer to three villages, "one
in the southeastern part of the reservation, another (the largest) near
the agency; the third to the northeast not far from the banks of the
Missouri.  ... The Middle village, as the one near the agency was called,
was on the stream now known as Blackbird creek.

LaFlesche himself in The Middle Five 1978 (1900):xix-xx says "at the time
the Omahas were living near the Missouri River in three villages, some
four or five miles apart.  The one farthest south was known as
Ton'-won-ga-hae's [TtaNwaNgaghe] village; the people were called 'wood
eaters', because they cut and sold wood to the settlers who lived near
them.  The middle one was Ish'-ka-da-be's village, and the people
designated it as 'those who dwell in earth lodges', they having adhered to
the aborginal form of dwelling when they built their village.  The one to
the north and nearest the Mission was E-sta'-ma-za's [INs^tamaNze, or
Joseph LaFlesche] village, and the people were known as 'make-believe
white-men', because they built there houses after the fashion of the white
settlers."

I equate the villages as follows:

Vilage 1

Bikku'de, Gahige's (Dorsey)
Middle, most populous, near agency (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
Middle, Is^kadabi's, Earth Lodge Dwellers (LaFlesche)

Village 2

WiNj^a'ge, Standing Hawk's [Gdhe'daN NaN'z^iN] (Dorsey)
northeast, near Missouri (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
northern, near Mission, Make-Believe Whitemen (LaFlesche)

Village 3

Z^aNdhathe, Sanssouci's (Dorsey)
southeastern (Fletcher & LaFlesche)
southern, TtaNwaNgaghe's, Wood-Eaters (LaFlesche)

So, I think that WiNj^a'ge was the "Village of Make-Believe Whitemen."
(I have a tendency to remember this as Bikkude, but I believe WiNj^age is
correct.)  Let me state specifically that the Omaha and English
expressions don't seem to have anything to do with one another other than
refering to the same place.  Except in the case of Z^aNdhathe and
Wood-Eater, the Omaha names given by Dorsey don't seem to reflect the
names given in translation by Fletcher and LaFlesche.  So, the possible
implication in the HBNAI (13:401) concerning the glossing of bikkude and
wiNj^age are incorrect as far as I can see.  I'm not sure what the authors
intended here, however.  Perhaps simply a list of equations as above.

I believe z^aNdhathe 'wood eater' is the term for 'carpenter ant' (and
maybe 'termite') so there may be a bit of humor in the naming here. HBNAI
sates that Z^aNdhathe's wood was being sold to steamboats for fuel.

I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g., bikhuj^e would mean
'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the implication of such a name
would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.

For what it's worth, 'Earthlodge' would be maNdhiN'tti, and '(in the)
Middle' might be udhiz^aN(tta) or i'daNbe, though there are a number of
ways to say something like this and I'm not at all sure what would be
idiomatic in the context of the village name.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May  8 05:03:35 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:03:35 -0600
Subject: Dakotan ''wichasha'' 'man'.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0504281855220.17343@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.MAY.2005.230335.0600.>

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
> I guess there's no reason why wic^ha-s^a 'man-red' wouldn't work
> analytically, though I'd feel better if I could explain the variants
> wic^hasta, etc., in the same breath.  ...

Wic^has^ta.  (Though I think s^ > s in Stoney?)

> One possibility that occurs to me is that wic^has^a is a punning
> substitution for wic^hasta.  ...

Or, rather, for wic^has^ta.

Or even just a lexical substitution of 'red man' for 'man + ???'.  Note
that -s^ta might be preceived as resembling -ska 'white'.

> If you look at Dhegiha forms, which as far as 'person' proper aren't
> cognate, you'd expect second elements in 'person' compounds to be
> something meaning 'little', cf., nikkas^iNga, s^iNgaz^iNga, etc.
>
> As far as -sta, could this be a fricative-grading variant of -xta in the
> sense 'real, true'?

The actual Dakotan enclitic here is =xc^A, though it's probably reasonable
to see it as deriving from earlier *=xta.

I should add that Bob Rankin, intrigued by this possibility, looked
through the SA Buechel files for any trace of putative *=s^ta with no luck
at all.  I looked in various grammatical references for something like
=sta or =s^ta in any sense with no luck either.  So this remains a rather
far-fetched suggestion.

Constantine Chmielnicky's observation that there are parallels for
reduction of Sa -s^tV to Te -s^V (in accentually weak locations, it
seems), is probably better supported and more plausible.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue May 10 02:04:15 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:04:15 -0600
Subject: WiNj^age (Re: Make-Believe in Omaha)
Message-ID: <MON.9.MAY.2005.200415.0600.>

I've done some additional pondering on the toponym WiNj^age for 'Village
of Make-Believe Whitemen'.

This is pretty strained, but it's the best I've been able to come up with.
(I have asked some Omaha speakers about this name in the past, but nobody
had any ideas at the time.  Obviously I haven't asked far and wide.)

wiN 'one'

da 'what, something indefinite', cf., da in edadaN, iNdadaN 'what' or
dadaN 'what, something' (discussed on the list in the past)

ge 'the (scattered inanimate)'

The dubious part is the middle da.  In edadaN 'what specific thing' and
iNdadaN 'what indefinite thing' the e- and iN are essentially
demonstratives, and =daN may be a particle that occurs elsewhere as a
contingency marker at the end of clauses, and in things like adaN
'therefore'.  The base form dadaN is mostly used in the sense of
'something'.

The form da- corresponds to Dakota ta- in taku 'what' and Winnebago j^aa-
in j^aagu 'what'.  (In Dakota, all the indefinite pronouns use ta or
something similar as their base.)  I think the final -ku and -gu in these
matches OP gu 'yonder', though you'd expect -ko and -go in a regular
correspondence.

It also occurs in OP agudi 'where' which looks to be a- 'indefinite,
interrogative' -gu- 'yonder' -di 'in, at', so, historically, this might be
something like "where away" or "where off," while the Dakota and Winnebago
what-forms would be historically something like "what yonder."
Expressions of this nature are not without parallel in English, but I have
no general information on the typology and evolution of demonstratives and
interrogatives.

The da element also occurs (as e=da) in OP ede 'what did he say' <
e=d(a)=e=e.  The construction there is obscured by vowel contractions.
Clearer is edes^e 'what did you say' < e=da=e=s^e.  Compare e 'he said' <
e=e (usually a=i 'he (proximate) said') and es^e 'you said' < e=s^e.
Verbs of saying in Siouan languages all start with equivalents of OP e
'the aforesaid' or ga 'the following'.  It's as if the 'that' in 'he said
that' or the 'what' in 'what he said was' had gotten glommed onto 'to
say'.  Forms for 'to say what' (used in questions) are also widespread.
Dakota has analogs, too.  (Again, this has been discussed on the list
before.)

So, if this assessment is correct, wiNj^age is a diminutive (essentially
pejorative) version of wiNda=ge which might be something like 'the
(little) scattered ones of whatever nature'.  I suppose such a name might
be a condescending or even contemptuous reference to the novel dwellings.


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May 12 16:46:41 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:46:41 -0500
Subject: FW: Word Inquiry
Message-ID: <THU.12.MAY.2005.114641.0500.>

All,

I have had this inquiry from Arkansas about a possible place or tribal
name MANATAKA.  I don't recognize it.  Do any of you?  Especially the
Algonquianists, given that it occurs in the NE as a placename....

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: aihsc [mailto:aihsc at gonmail.com]

Dear Dr. Rankin,

We are trying to track down the possible origin of a
place name word.  I understand that the bastardization
and changes from original American Indian words often
makes it either difficult or impossible to make
definite connections.

However, this is rather important to us in that it
involves a fraudulent American Indian organization in
Arkansas - the "Manataka American Indian Council".
They are using the word both as part of their name and
the original name of the area where they are located -
Hot Springs, Arkansas.

The current spelling of the word is "Manataka".  Past
spellings might have included "Mahnatakah" and
"Monataukau".

There is a Lake Manataka in Pennsylvania, and there
were was a Manataka chapter of the Improved Order of
Red Men at Hot Springs, Arkansas in the late 1800's
and early 1900's.  We don't know at this time if there
were IORM Manataka chapters in other states, but we
are looking into the possibility.  There was also a
Monatauk tribe in the Long Island area.

The organization in question claims that the word
means "Place of Peace", which we find highly unlikely.
 Tooker's possible meaning of "manatauk", which might
be the origin of our word, is an observation point.
However, we understand that his work is highly suspect
today.

The organization also states that the word had been
"credited to the Kaw in 1789 by the French, but there
is no evidence for this claim".  In addition, I don't
believe that the Kaw ever made it that far south.

Any help or suggestion that you might have in
unraveling the origin and original definition of
"Manataka" would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Dave Lowe
American Indian Heritage Support Center
Bentonville, AR


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu May 12 16:49:46 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:49:46 -0500
Subject: FW: American Philosophical Society Launches New Grant Program
Message-ID: <THU.12.MAY.2005.114946.0500.>

Just for everyone's information.
 
Bob
 
 
-----Original Message-----




 <http://pull.xmr3.com/p/2343-2508/63428237/newseal1.gif> 

The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research

The American Philosophical Society (APS), the oldest learned society in
North America and sponsor of Lewis and Clark's Corps of Discovery in
1804, announces a new program of research grants in support of graduate
students, post-doctoral students, and junior and senior scientists and
scholars undertaking field studies for their theses or other projects.

The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research was
established through the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for
Basic Science, thanks to a benefaction from Dr. Ascherman that is
administered by Stanford University. Dr. Ascherman, who passed away in
November 2004, was a noted surgeon and philanthropist in San Francisco.
Dr. Blumberg, a Distinguished Scientist at Fox Chase Cancer Center in
Philadelphia, former Director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute, and
Nobel Prize in Medicine recipient in 1976, initiated the establishment
of the Lewis and Clark Fund.

SCOPE The Lewis and Clark Fund encourages exploratory field studies for
the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative
stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited
from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as
archeology, anthropology, astrobiology and space science, biology,
ecology, geography, geology, oceanography, and paleontology, but grants
will not be restricted to these fields.

ELIGIBILITY Grants are available to graduate students, post-doctoral
students, junior and senior scientists, and social scientists who wish
to participate in field studies for their theses or for other purposes.
Undergraduates are not eligible. A graduate student applicant should ask
his or her academic supervisor or field trip leader to write one of the
two letters of recommendation, specifying the role of the student in the
field trip and the educational contribution of the trip. Budgets should
be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field
equipment. U.S. nationals and others may apply. Funding will be given
foreign nationals only for projects within the United States or for
field studies elsewhere originating from a U.S. institution.

AWARD Amounts will depend on travel costs but will ordinarily be in the
range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. 

DEADLINE There is no deadline. Applications may be submitted at any
time, and the Committee for the Lewis and Clark Fund will evaluate
applications several times during the year.

HOW TO APPLY Applications are available online at
www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm
<http://pull.xmr3.com/p/2343-2788/63428231/Applications_available.html>
. The completed application is to be sent as an e-mail attachment to the
address on the form. 

The American Philosophical Society
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Thank you very much for helping us to spread word of our program. If you
post our program announcement in electronic newsletters, please be sure
to say that all information is available at our website,
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From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Mon May 16 02:54:37 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:54:37 -0500
Subject: OSAGE IROSHKA SPRING DANCE DATES
Message-ID: <SUN.15.MAY.2005.215437.0500.>

    For Your Information and as it relates to the
Siouian Conference, Kaw City, Okla.

1st weekend of June,  6/2nd ~ 5th.  GreyHorse Community.
2nd weekend of June,  6/9th ~ 12th.  SKIPS.
3rd weekend of June,  6/16th ~ 19th.  Hominy Community.
4th weekend of June,  6/23rd ~ 26th.  Pawkhuska Community.


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Fri May 20 14:54:28 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:54:28 -0500
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.095428.0500.>

What is the web address to this Learning Aids Page?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)


> The following is extracted from the current SSILA newsletter.  Though a
> number of members of the Siouan List are also SSILA members, it seems to
> me that the SSILA non-members on the list might be interested in this.
>
> =============
>
> * Learning Aids update
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> As many of you will know, the SSILA website has a "Learning Aids" page,
> with listings of pedagogical materials--primers, dictionaries, tapes,
> lessons, etc.--for various American Indian languages.  As many of you
> may also know, these listings are terribly out of date.  A great many
> of the books and tapes announced there are no long available, or the
> prices have changed, or the ordering addresses have long since been
> changed.
>
> We are now in the process of reviewing and updating the entire Learning
> Aids page.  To help us in this daunting task, could we ask the following
> of you?
>
> (1) If you know for certain that a listing on the Learning Aids page
> is incorrect in some way, please let us know the specifics.
>
> (2) If you are the publisher or distributor of learning materials on
> some specific language or languages:  please send us a description of
> the materials (books, tapes, CDs, videos, etc.), the prices you are
> asking, and ordering instructions.  If you have a website from which
> these materials can be ordered, please let us know the address.  If
> you accept payments only by mail, let us know the forms of payment
> you accept (check, credit card, etc.)
>
> (3) If you have purchased or otherwise know about some learning
> materials that you would recommend for a particular language:  please
> send us the details, if possible including where the materials can
> be obtained.
>
> (4) If you are reasonably familiar with materials in a certain area
> (e.g., Oklahoma languages) or on a particular group of languages
> (e.g., Athabaskan languages), and have the time to spare, we would
> be *most* grateful if you could serve as a contributing editor for
> the Learning Aids page.
>
> Spearheading this project will be the SSILA website manager, Ardis
> Eschenberg, whom you can contact at <ardisrachel at gmail.com>.  You can
> also contact the Bulletin editor, Victor Golla, at <golla at ssila.org>.
>
> We look forward to hearing from you!
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Fri May 20 19:28:31 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:28:31 -0500
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.142831.0500.>

I'd just try www.ssila.org and then follow the menus to
the learning materials page(s).

Bob


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 21 00:42:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:42:27 -0600
Subject: SSILA Learning Materials List (SSILA Bulletin #221) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <002501c55d72$1c143b30$22b5ed81@Rankin>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.184227.0600.>

On Fri, 20 May 2005, R. Rankin wrote:
> I'd just try www.ssila.org and then follow the menus to
> the learning materials page(s).

Yes.  The site is set up so that if you try to get at the URLs for
internal pages by the usual techniques you just get http://www.ssila.org.
You can learn the actual URLs with a little effort, but it's best to go to
the top and tunnel down since that seems to be the logic in force.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 21 03:45:21 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:45:21 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.MAY.2005.214521.0600.>

This was set this aside to look up the archive link a little while ago and
here it is 6 months later!

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote:
> Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
> query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
> 'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
> plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.

I'm sure there's a connection.  In fact, there was a discussion of this in
2001 that you can consult in the list archives at:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=year+earth&s=&f=&a=&b=

In general these terms are homophonous or nearly so throughout the family
and in a lot of other places, too.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun May 22 09:45:52 2005
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:45:52 +0200
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
Message-ID: <SUN.22.MAY.2005.114552.0200.>

Thanks for your reply, John, and pointing to the earlier thread.

I do not tend to believe in mere homophony in this case because the
underlying idea being too universal (not only in Siouan languages) and
'obvious'.

Looking at the 'world/earth' (maka) around, a people still bound to and
aware of nature easily realizes the (cyclical) changes "on maka" (->
omaka?), so it seems quite natural relating these two ideas to each
other (cf. the names of the months in Dakota etc., but also in many
other languages, also the germanic ones before christianisation).

The hint to 'world' (somewhere on this listserve) is interesting. This
is what my 'Kluge' gives so far:
"Welt (< 8. Jh.) Mhd. welt, wer(e)lt, ahd. weralt, andfrk. werold aus
wg. *wira-ald? 'Zeitalter, Welt', auch in ae. weorold, afr. warld
Zusammensetzung aus g. *wera- 'Mann, Mensch' in gt. wair, anord. verr,
ae. wer, as. wer, ahd. wer; au?ergermanisch air. fer, l. vir und (...)
ai. vir? (the i should be long), lit. vyras und als zweites Glied ein
Wort, das zu 'alt' geh?rt. (...)"

So, 'world' is composed of 'man/human' and 'old' (age) which means that
space (world/earth/maka) and time (age/era/'Zeitalter'/year/omaka etc.)
obviously can be understood as closely related.
This is the case also in Chinese language (and thinking!): the modern
word for 'world' is _shijie_ [shi4-jie4] where _shi_ means the
'generation' [of a man] (i.e. thirty years) - thus referring to 'man'
and to 'time' -, and _jie_ has the meaning of 'boundary' - thus
referring to 'space' (and, of course, again to 'man' also).

Please excuse my long-winded explanation against random homophony ;-)

Alfred




 > I'm sure there's a connection.  In fact, there was a discussion of
this in
2001 that you can consult in the list archives at:


http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S2=siouan&q=year+earth&s=&f=&a=&b=


In general these terms are homophonous or nearly so throughout the family
and in a lot of other places, too. <<


 >> BTW, I have a question to the Siouanist experts here:
Dealing with Dell Hymes' work "In vain I tried to tell you", recently, I
ran into this statement:
"In winter the peripheral world of supernatural power and myth came
closer, spirit-power was sought and initiations into the control of
power held, and myths formally told. Myths, in fact, were not to be told
in summer for fear of rattlesnake bite. With spring, Chinookans, like
flowers, emerged from underground to a new world. The root for "world,
country, land, earth" indeed also has the meaning "year", pointing up
the interdependence of recurring time with the recurrences of the
seasonal round." (p. 21)

Apart from all this sounding very familiarily Chinese to me, here's my
query: how's this in Siouan etymology? As for Dakota, the word for
'season/year' _omaka_ obviously comprises _maka_ [makxa'] 'earth' etc.
plus the locative (or whatever) prefix _o-_.<<<<

Alfred
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon May 23 23:59:22 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:59:22 -0600
Subject: Wanikiya Tun -> omaka
In-Reply-To: <429054D0.9050209@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.23.MAY.2005.175922.0600.>

On Sun, 22 May 2005, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote:
> I do not tend to believe in mere homophony in this case ...

No, I doubt it's simple homophony either.  As you suggest there is
probably a common association of ideas and a derivational basis for the
similarity.


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed May 25 18:41:56 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:41:56 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.134156.0500.>

The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older name
for the Potawatomi?
There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is attached
to the term that I am familiar with.
Jimm


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed May 25 19:17:35 2005
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:17:35 -0700
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.121735.0700.>

No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly spoke
a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity as
a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
century.

No definite sample of the Mascouten language is known, but there are several
statements in the Jesuit Relations that they spoke the same language as the
Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo.

A recently-discovered 1792 vocabulary by John Heckewelder looks a lot like
Sauk, Fox, and Kickapoo, but doesn't quite match any of them. Ives has
theorized that it might actually be Mascouten. His article on this is in the
Proceedings of the Algonquian Conference, volume 34.

best,
David


> The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older name
> for the Potawatomi?
> There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
> Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
> I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is attached
> to the term that I am familiar with.
> Jimm
>
>
>
>


From goodtracks at GBRonline.com  Wed May 25 20:15:57 2005
From: goodtracks at GBRonline.com (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:15:57 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.151557.0500.>

Thanks, Dave, for clearifying a long standing confusion.
Have a great Mem Day weekend.
Jimm

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Costa" <pankihtamwa at earthlink.net>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>; <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: MASCOUTIN


> No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly
> spoke
> a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity
> as
> a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
> century.
>
> No definite sample of the Mascouten language is known, but there are
> several
> statements in the Jesuit Relations that they spoke the same language as
> the
> Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo.
>
> A recently-discovered 1792 vocabulary by John Heckewelder looks a lot like
> Sauk, Fox, and Kickapoo, but doesn't quite match any of them. Ives has
> theorized that it might actually be Mascouten. His article on this is in
> the
> Proceedings of the Algonquian Conference, volume 34.
>
> best,
> David
>
>
>> The term -- MASCOUTIN -- is seen in documents.  Is this term an older
>> name
>> for the Potawatomi?
>> There is a small town by this name here in Kansas just west of the
>> Potawatomi Rez and southwest of the Kickapoo Rez
>> I've seen this term often, but there is no tribal community that is
>> attached
>> to the term that I am familiar with.
>> Jimm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu May 26 02:10:42 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:10:42 -0600
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <E1Db1Ne-000677-00@pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.25.MAY.2005.201042.0600.>

On Wed, 25 May 2005, David Costa wrote:
> No -- the Mascoutin (AKA Mascouten) were a tribe who almost certainly spoke
> a subdialect of the Sauk/Fox/Kickapoo language. They lost their identity as
> a separate tribe when they merged with the Kickapoo in the early 19th
> century.

Isn't there a long history of confusion on this score connected with
alternate etymologies of Mascoutin, "People of the Fire/Prarie" and
application of one of these names (the latter?) to the Potawatomi?  I
remember the ingredients, as it were, but not the details.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu May 26 11:53:22 2005
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:53:22 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0505252008111.21228@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.MAY.2005.065322.0500.>

Quoting Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>:
>
> Isn't there a long history of confusion on this score connected with
> alternate etymologies of Mascoutin, "People of the Fire/Prarie" and
> application of one of these names (the latter?) to the Potawatomi?  I
> remember the ingredients, as it were, but not the details.
>
>

Exactly, John. Early scholars misidentified the Mascouten and this
misidentification persisted until 1972 when Ives brought out his "Historical
and Philological Evidence Regarding the Identification of the Mascouten?
(Ethnohistory 19, no.2 (1972): 123-34).

I have to be somewhere in two minutes, but I'll fill this in later.

Michael


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu May 26 15:12:32 2005
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:12:32 -0500
Subject: MASCOUTIN
Message-ID: <THU.26.MAY.2005.101232.0500.>

The Mascouten were first identified in history by names that the Huron applied
to them. One of these, a reference to the late prehistoric location of the
Mascouten in the southwestern Lake Erie watershed, is recorded in the form
<Totontaratonhronon>, which means ?people where the lake disappears?.
(Translation by Blair Rudes, personal communication)

There is also another, and quite famous, Huron tribal name for the Mascouten,
written historically by the French as <a,tsistaee,ronnon>(The commas should be
under the preceding vowels and facing the other direction). This means "people
of the place where there is fire". (Also a translation by Blair Rudes.) This
attestation has particular historical importance since it was this term,
translated by the French to "les Gens du Feu" (the People of the Fire), that
was also the generic French name in the **early 1600s** for all the Central
Algonquian-speaking tribes living west of Lake Erie in the area now known as
southern Michigan and northwestern Ohio. The term seems to refer to the bison
hunting practices of the lower Great Lakes Algonquian peoples who would
intentionally start prairie fires both to create ?parklands? supporting
vegetation that would attract the animals and to drive the animals in the
hunt. The term latter applied specifically to the Mascouten.

Then came along the incorrect analysis of Ojibwe /pooteewaataamii/ and
Potawatomi /potewatmi/ as "he makes a fire". (The ethnonym in fact has no
known analysis.) But this interpretation naturally got tied into "Les Gens du
Feu" and hence the Mascouten. As I mentioned earlier today, however, Ives
Goddard sorted this out in his 1972 paper.

The precise origin of the ethnonym ?Mascouten? is not known, but its meaning
is clear. ?Mascouten? is definitely cognate with Old
Illinois /maskoteenta/ ?small-prairie person?. This name appears to allude to
the Prairie Peninsula of southwestern Michigan or even to small prairies in
northwestern Ohio. In late prehistory the Mascouten are thought to have lived
along the western shores of Lake Erie as members of what archaeologists term
the Sandusky Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Later, during part of the second
half of the seventeenth century the Miami and the Mascouten, war refugees,
shared a town on the upper Fox River near present-day Berlin, Wisconsin.
Then, from the late 1600s through the 1700s the Mascouten were divided into
basically two groups. In the eighteenth century, one lived on the Wabash River
below the Wea (near present-day Lafayette) and was allied with the latter and
the neighboring Piankashaw. The other was allied with the Fox and Kickapoo and
lived generally in what is now Illinois. Reduced in number by warfare and
European-introduced contagions, the Mascouten people are thought to have
merged with their linguistic and cultural cousins, the Vermillion Kickapoo,
and disappeared as a tribe known as the Mascouten. However, as Dave mentioned
yesterday, there is attractive evidence that some Mascouten continued as a
distinct linguistic entity at least into the last decade of the eighteenth
century.


Michael


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 28 20:15:47 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:15:47 -0600
Subject: Omaha Name with Unsual Word for 'Good'
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.141547.0600.>

One of the little noticeable differences between Dhegiha languages is the
word for 'good'.  Omaha-Ponca has u'daN, Osage has dha'gdhiN or dha'liN
(pronounceced dha'dliN - for a good time ask somebody who knows Osage to
say 'very good'), Kaw has ya'le or ya'li (the same form as Osage, but with
the Kaw sound changes), Quapaw has ho'ttaN.  In this case, OP and Qu
pattern together, as do Os and Ks.

Note that they all have some variant on ppiaz^i 'bad' from earlier ppi
'good' + az^i 'not' as well as occasional other fossilized cases of ppi
'good', from *hpi 'good', compare Dakotan phi'c^a 'good', IO phi' 'good',
Wi piNiN' 'good'.

Also, Osage has otaN' 'war honor' (i.e., 'coup'), which explains the OP
and Qu forms, though not the initial h- of the latter (I think, but Quapaw
is always full of surprises).

So, I was interested to notice this Omaha name used in the KkaNze clan
(Fletcher & LaFlesche, p.  171):  pahi'thagthiN (ppahiN' dha'gdhiN)
glossed 'good hair'.  Of course, the name could be borrowed from another
Dhegiha language, but perhaps it's just a leftover from earlier dha'gdhiN
'good', no longer attested.  Or perhaps dha'gdhiN is still around, but
uncommon, and simply doesn't happen occur in the Dorsey texts or
Swetland-Stabler dictionary.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat May 28 20:49:12 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:49:12 -0600
Subject: MASCOUTIN
In-Reply-To: <1117120352.4295e76072f59@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.144912.0600.>

On Thu, 26 May 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote:
> The precise origin of the ethnonym ?Mascouten? is not known, but its
> meaning is clear. ?Mascouten? is definitely cognate with Old Illinois
> /maskoteenta/ ?small-prairie person?. This name appears to allude to the
> Prairie Peninsula of southwestern Michigan or even to small prairies in
> northwestern Ohio.

Or, in short, to those parklands created by burning over the grasslands to
kill the saplings!  Isn't the term Prairie Peninsula applied to the tall
grass prairie east of the Mississippi and between the Ohio and Great Lakes
generally?

Could the diminutive here be in opposition to another 'prairie people'
group?  In other words, could it apply to the ethnic group as opposed to
the prairies?  Analogies would be Yankton (ihaNk-thuNwaN 'end people') and
Yankto*nais* (ihaNk-thuNwaN=*na* 'little end people'), or Shahi(ya) 'Cree'
(obsolete usage)  vs. Shahiye=na 'Cheyenne, i.e., Little Cree', or, for
that matter, Nottoway 'Iroquois' vs.  Nadou*ess*ioux 'Sioux'?  I may not
be bounding the diminutive morpheme correctly in Algonquian!

There is a notable analogy to the 'Prairie People' in Siouan nomenclature,
though I don't mean to suggest that it would be the group relative to
which the Mascouten could perhaps be 'little' or 'lesser prairie people'.

This analogy is Teton, of course.  This is thi-thuNwaN or thi-people
today, but seems earlier to have been thiN-thuNwaN (Riggs, Grammar, p.
161), said to be contracted from thiNta 'prairie', not thi 'dwell(ing)'.
(For similar glosses by others, see Ray DeMallie's Sioux Until 1850 (HBNAI
13:718-760), e.g., LeSueur 1699-1702, mentioned p. 723.

I suspect that this original form wasn't some arbitrary contraction, but
derives with only slight irregularity from something like *thiNl=thuNwaN,
with thiNl- (or thiNd-, the regularly formed combining form of thiNta
'prairie' (Riggs, p. 469, but not carried over into Buechel), with the -l
(or -d) coming out [n] after a nasal vowel.  Compare the handling of
c^haNte' 'heart' in c^haNl-was^te 'happy'.  I suspect that in this context
it would be easy to lose that -n in a context like VN__#th, while perhaps
its historical presence also helps explain the tendency of the root in
this form to denasalize.

The Proto-Dhegiha form *htaNte, cf. OP ttaN'de 'ground, ground surface,
soil', Os htoN'ce 'earth or ground; prairie without trees', Ks ttaN'j^e
'ground' seems to be a reasonable if slightly irregular cognate of Dakotan
thiNta.  The change in the root vowel iN in the latter is what's unusual,
but this occurs elsewhere, too, e.g.,

'shoe' Da haN'pa/thahaN'pe '~/his ~', OP hiNbe', hiN'be, Os hoNbe', Ks
hoNbe', Qu hoNbe' (another form entirely is used in IO and Wi, cf. IO
agu'j^e, Wi waguj^e');

'grizzly' Da ma(N)tho' (but expect *maNho'?), OP maNc^hu', Os miNcho, Ks
miNc^ho', Qu moNc^ho', IO ma(N)tho', Wi maNc^o';

'bow' Dakota ita'(zipa), by reanalysis of *miNta+zipa as first person
possessive, OP maN'de, Os miN'ce, Ks miN'j^e, Qu maN'tte, IO
 maNhdu < *maNktu < *maNtku by a regular metathesis, Wi maNaNc^gu'.

The main difficulty here is that the vowel change in question is irregular
as to which language it occurs in.  And under the circumstances it is hard
to say which vowel is changing to which, though I tend to assume majority
rule aN is original in each case and iN is the innovation.

The last set - 'bow' - is an Algonquian loan, or perhaps better, a
collection of Algonquian loans, which may to some extent explain the
vowel, i.e., maNt ~ miNt (or *waNt ~ *wiNt) reflects *ment in the
Algonquian source languages.  I'm not aware of any of the other examples
as loans, though 'grizzly' has the additional oddity of *th not becoming h
in Dakotan (compare Dakota phehaN vs. OP ppethaN < *hpethaN 'crane', or
Dakota hi vs. OP thi < *thi 'arrive here').  Maybe all of the aN ~ iN
forms with their oddities are also loans, even if we don't know the
sources in some cases.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun May 29 03:01:27 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:01:27 -0600
Subject: Dh
Message-ID: <SAT.28.MAY.2005.210127.0600.>

Students of Dhegiha phonology, or of Siouan phonology generally, may be
interested in:

Starks, Donna; Ballard, Elaine.  2005.  Woods Cree /<edh>/:  An Unusual
Type of Sonorant.  IJAL 71.1 (January 2005):  102-115.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun May 29 15:52:26 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:52:26 -0500
Subject: Omaha Name with Unsual Word for 'Good'
Message-ID: <SUN.29.MAY.2005.105226.0500.>

The /daN/ of daNhe' in Kansa and the /taN/ of Osage are
probably also related.  In Kaw daNhe' + POSITIONAL  is
the way you ask 'are you OK?' or 'how are you?'  There
is a long disquisition on the term in La Flesche's
Osage Dictionary too.  As John says, it's the
'goodness' that's all tied up with concepts of honor
and duty.  I suspect that dhaagdhiN is goodness in the
sense of 'pleasant', as in Kaw blaN yaaliN 'good
smelling'.  It's interesting how the two have gotten
generalized in the different subgroups.  And I can't
account for the initial H in Quapaw either.  (The QU
gemination is normal for post-accentual position in
this ''Sicilian-of-the-Siouan-Languages''.)
Bob

> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: [Spam:0008 SpamScore] Omaha Name with Unsual
> Word for 'Good'

I see KU's spam filter is still assigning John a score
of eight stars.

> One of the little noticeable differences between
> Dhegiha languages is the
> word for 'good'.  Omaha-Ponca has u'daN, Osage has
> dha'gdhiN or dha'liN
> (pronounceced dha'dliN - for a good time ask somebody
> who knows Osage to
> say 'very good'), Kaw has ya'le or ya'li (the same
> form as Osage, but with
> the Kaw sound changes), Quapaw has ho'ttaN.  In this
> case, OP and Qu
> pattern together, as do Os and Ks.
>
> Note that they all have some variant on ppiaz^i 'bad'
> from earlier ppi
> 'good' + az^i 'not' as well as occasional other
> fossilized cases of ppi
> 'good', from *hpi 'good', compare Dakotan phi'c^a
> 'good', IO phi' 'good',
> Wi piNiN' 'good'.
>
> Also, Osage has otaN' 'war honor' (i.e., 'coup'),
> which explains the OP
> and Qu forms, though not the initial h- of the latter
> (I think, but Quapaw
> is always full of surprises).
>
> So, I was interested to notice this Omaha name used
> in the KkaNze clan
> (Fletcher & LaFlesche, p.  171):  pahi'thagthiN
> (ppahiN' dha'gdhiN)
> glossed 'good hair'.  Of course, the name could be
> borrowed from another
> Dhegiha language, but perhaps it's just a leftover
> from earlier dha'gdhiN
> 'good', no longer attested.  Or perhaps dha'gdhiN is
> still around, but
> uncommon, and simply doesn't happen occur in the
> Dorsey texts or
> Swetland-Stabler dictionary.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Tue May 31 14:57:40 2005
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:57:40 -0600
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0505072230080.28922@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.085740.0600.>

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
> I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g., bikhuj^e would mean
> 'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the implication of such a name
> would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.

It should be noted that if we take the form as a native Omaha-Ponca word,
then it would apear to mean 'to perform the action (or reach the state)
"kkude" by pressing'.  However, I have been unable to find any other
examples of -kkude.  The closest is the *-hkut-e stem meaning 'to shoot',
which becomes -kkide in OP by the regular shift of *u to i.

In a sense, then, the meaning of bikkude may be quite clear, we just don't
know what it is!

Another possibility is that the word involves some fairly sever
contractions that I'm not picking up on.

Again, I've asked a few people what bikkude might mean, but no one had any
ideas at the time.

I haven't actually looked any of the names up in Dorsey's slip file!


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue May 31 15:42:52 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (R. Rankin)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:42:52 -0500
Subject: Village of Make Believe Whitemen
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.104252.0500.>

The root could be cognate with Dakotan /-khota/, as in
dakhota, lakhota, nakhoda, etc.  Other Dhegiha cognates
would be OS -hkoce, KS -kkoje, QU -kkotte/, and, as you
say, IO -khoje.  Probably Hochunk -ko(o)c.  Any items
turn up in any of those languages?

Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Village of Make Believe Whitemen


> On Sat, 7 May 2005, Koontz John E wrote:
>> I've wondered if bikkude might be Ioway-Otoe, e.g.,
>> bikhuj^e would mean
>> 'moon-shooter'.  However, I'm not sure what the
>> implication of such a name
>> would be, and I'm just grasping at straws here.
>
> It should be noted that if we take the form as a
> native Omaha-Ponca word,
> then it would apear to mean 'to perform the action
> (or reach the state)
> "kkude" by pressing'.  However, I have been unable to
> find any other
> examples of -kkude.  The closest is the *-hkut-e stem
> meaning 'to shoot',
> which becomes -kkide in OP by the regular shift of *u
> to i.
>
> In a sense, then, the meaning of bikkude may be quite
> clear, we just don't
> know what it is!
>
> Another possibility is that the word involves some
> fairly sever
> contractions that I'm not picking up on.
>
> Again, I've asked a few people what bikkude might
> mean, but no one had any
> ideas at the time.
>
> I haven't actually looked any of the names up in
> Dorsey's slip file!
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Tue May 31 18:12:21 2005
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:12:21 -0500
Subject: bikkude
Message-ID: <TUE.31.MAY.2005.131221.0500.>

I don't think what I said about potential cognates for John's /bikkode/
[bikkude] came out the way I intended.  Dakotan /-khota/ is indeed a
potential match for Omaha /-kkode/, pronounced [-kkude], because /-e/ >
/-a/ by analogy in Dakota.  BUT the actual Dakotan morpheme /-khota/,
with its allomorph /khola/ 'friend' has an organic final /-a/, and so
would have /-a/ in all the Dhegiha dialects.  Thus the Omaha word cannot
be an actual cognate with 'friend'.  It has to come from somewhere else.
And it would be in homonymic clash with khota (the allomorph of
'friend') in Dakotan.

Bob