From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:14:53 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:14:53 -0700 Subject: "saponi Treaty signers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:00:16 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:00:16 -0700 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 8 00:08:31 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:08:31 -0700 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 14:46:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:38 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 15:04:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:04:11 -0600 Subject: "saponi Treaty signers" Message-ID: The term "Hoontky" is probably 'chief'. I think this is established in other documents. It is also spelled "hoontsky" in some documents. The Tutelo name, below, Mawseeuntky, probably contains the term also -- written "untky". My suspicion is that this is cognate with Mississippi Valley Siouan *huNka 'one who has been blessed, ancestor, leader' (Dhegiha hoNga, etc.). If this is the case, we would have yet another lexeme in which Ohio Valley Siouan has a /-tk-/ cluster where the rest of Siouan has just /k/. Other such terms include 'younger brother' (suNtk-). The name of the Stuckanox chief strongly suggests that she was a woman (miha). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of tom poulsen Sent: Mon 11/7/2005 5:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re:"saponi Treaty signers" Hello Mr koontz The following names are from a treaty with the eastern souian people Iam hoping that you maybe able to help with a translation. The names are as follows: Tawhee Sockha Hoontky of the Saponies;, Nehawroose (hehaurooss) in behalf of Hoonthmiya (hoontky miha) of the Stukanoes; Chaweo ; or chawco Hooutky(sp) of the Occaneechis Mawseeuntky, Hoontky of the Tottero Signed at Williamsburg the 27th day of February 1713. Also can you translate sissipaha, there's various spellings of the last word, however any input that you can share would be great! Thank you very much Tom Poulsen ps how do I contact robert Rankin? ________________________________ From: Koontz John E Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Tomahittan? Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:02 -0600 (MDT) >On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > No. There is no locative prefix with the shape to- in Siouan. Some > > people are obsessed with "big turkeys" and also analyze Mosopelea as > > 'big turkey'. What is it about turkeys? > From munro at ucla.edu Tue Nov 8 15:59:10 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 07:59:10 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know just what you mean. Koontz John E wrote: >I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 8 17:14:10 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:14:10 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm wondering what OP gdh- looks like in other Siouan languages, especially Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? I think I understand that words like gdhe, gdhaN, gdhiN, gdhi, etc, reflect an original *kire', *kiraN', *kiriN', *kiri', with the initial *ki- being a possessive or reflexive 'action with respect to self' element. Is this correct? Rory From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 17:16:28 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:16:28 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies In-Reply-To: <4370CB4E.8080304@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to do it," he said. Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies I know just what you mean. Koontz John E wrote: >I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Nov 8 17:23:43 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:23:43 -0700 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rory, That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive forms of y- stem verbs. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering what OP gdh- looks like in other Siouan languages, especially > Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? I think I understand that words like gdhe, > gdhaN, gdhiN, gdhi, etc, reflect an original *kire', *kiraN', *kiriN', > *kiri', with the initial *ki- being a possessive or reflexive 'action with > respect to self' element. Is this correct? > > Rory > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 17:50:29 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:50:29 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I never met Ken, being part of a West Coast linguistics circuit that had very little to do with MIT, but I have to say, that is a wonderful bit of encouragement for a professor to give to a grad student. And of course, he was right. :-) David > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. > Carolyn Quintero > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies > > I know just what you mean. > > Koontz John E wrote: > >>I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >>of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >>is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >>feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. >> >>John E. Koontz >>http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz >> >> >> > > -- > Pamela Munro, > Professor, Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 > http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 8 21:55:04 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:55:04 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 8 23:13:42 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:13:42 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. > Don't know how much this will help here, but I can tell you that the word for 'town' in Biloxi is taN and is used in many placenames, a good example being TaN NithaNyaN, Big Town, meaning New Orleans. Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? This ending is added to most placenames in Biloxi and the best I can come up with so far based on other places where -yaN occurs is that it means 'that place over yonder, over there' or perhaps, as you hypothesize, 'immovable object.' Dave Rory M Larson wrote: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 23:32:50 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:32:50 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi additional dialect material available in Doug Parks' on-line dictionaries. QU kde kdaN kdiN kdi KS le laN liN li (Osage same) BI kidi TU gili also gri I didn't look up the other three stems, but they have a similar outcome in the SE. Biloxi and Tutelo illustrate the Ohio Valley Siouan outcome of the cluster. Dakotan hd is recent and descends from *kr. Loss of the initial syllable vowel pretty much has to be before the breakup of Mississippi Valley Siouan as all languages of the subgroup are affected (Winnebago re-adds a copy vowel late). The /ithaN/ of Tomahitan would be a perfect Ohio Val. Siouan 'big', but the rest doesn't fit Siouan generally. I wish it did. Bob A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 23:53:13 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:13 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? I apologize for the cold water, but -yaN isn't demonstrably cognate with *kraN either. The BI match for *k(i)r- is /kid-/, possibly reduced contextually to /kd/. The *k stays in the cluster. The BI /taN/ 'town' is probably related to the Dakotan /thuNwaN/, Dhegiha ttaNwaN, KS ttaNmaN, etc. Very similar forms are found in Western Muskogean (not in the East), so the term seems to have been borrowed around a bit, but it probably originates in Siouan. By the way, it is NOT related to English "town" since it is attested in Lakota before close contact with English speakers and it is attested in virtually all MVS languages except maybe WI. Bob From boris at terracom.net Wed Nov 9 00:08:44 2005 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:08:44 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a connection to Ojibwa 'odana/odanah'. Alan K > Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? I apologize for the cold water, but -yaN isn't demonstrably cognate with *kraN either. The BI match for *k(i)r- is /kid-/, possibly reduced contextually to /kd/. The *k stays in the cluster. The BI /taN/ 'town' is probably related to the Dakotan /thuNwaN/, Dhegiha ttaNwaN, KS ttaNmaN, etc. Very similar forms are found in Western Muskogean (not in the East), so the term seems to have been borrowed around a bit, but it probably originates in Siouan. By the way, it is NOT related to English "town" since it is attested in Lakota before close contact with English speakers and it is attested in virtually all MVS languages except maybe WI. Bob -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Nov 9 00:19:58 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:19:58 -0600 Subject: endangered languages grant Message-ID: Congratulations to John Boyle for obtaining one of the Endangered Languages grants for further work on Hidatsa. An excellent choice! Mary From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 00:43:24 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:43:24 -0800 Subject: endangered languages grant In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20051108181722.01f1a008@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Congrats, John! Dave Marino wrote: Congratulations to John Boyle for obtaining one of the Endangered Languages grants for further work on Hidatsa. An excellent choice! Mary --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 01:21:33 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:21:33 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: <20051108231342.26112.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: htaN'waN is the Osage word for 'town'. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Hi, > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. > Don't know how much this will help here, but I can tell you that the word for 'town' in Biloxi is taN and is used in many placenames, a good example being TaN NithaNyaN, Big Town, meaning New Orleans. Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? This ending is added to most placenames in Biloxi and the best I can come up with so far based on other places where -yaN occurs is that it means 'that place over yonder, over there' or perhaps, as you hypothesize, 'immovable object.' Dave Rory M Larson wrote: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', a! nd seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of u! s has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob _____ Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Nov 9 01:40:38 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:40:38 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 07:03:29 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 00:03:29 -0700 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) In-Reply-To: <003a01c5e4ce$964f4320$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Tom Leonard wrote: > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" It's applied in that sense in Omaha to some extent, too, though I think there are other words for the concept, too. (Straying form the subject, there is no word for 'moiety' or half-tribe that I can discover.) The Dakota cognate form thuNwaN is the formant at the end of subtribe names, e.g., Yankton = IhaNkthuNwaN, Wahpeton = WakpethuNwaN, etc. In Omaha ttaNwaN- tends to be be reduced to ttaN-aN (rearticulated or long with falling pitch) as I recall it, and I gather that something similar happens with Dakota thuNwaN, explaining why French speakers conventionally recorded it as -ton. (I think David mentioned this once, long ago!) I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. Compare Omaha(-Ponca) S^aaN TtaNwaNgdhaN 'Sioux City'. I think the relatedness of 'clan, tribe' and 'village' provides a historical insight into the culture of Native America pre-contact, in the same way the connection or identity of words for 'cloud' and 'sky' does, and so on. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Nov 9 09:33:06 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:33:06 +0100 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ in Lakota. (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi he (sic!).") Alfred From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Nov 9 10:50:29 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:50:29 +0000 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Bob: could it be a seriuously mangled misspelling of tamaha chito 'big town' in Choctaw? I'#m sending you this off-list in case it's wrong and I make a twit of myself. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 11/08/05 2:46 pm >>> >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 9 11:10:10 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:10:10 -0500 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: <4371C252.6010807@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a borrowing from Siouan? Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. Michael Quoting "\"Alfred W. Tüting\"" : > > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN > part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used > separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the > gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something > inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether > any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << > > > Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a > somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a > town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like > 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ > in Lakota. > > (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel > owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi > he (sic!).") > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Nov 9 12:15:06 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:15:06 +0000 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I *did* meet ken briefly once (Albuquerque '95), and corresponded with him, and what he said to Carolyn was typical Ken - positive and supportive. His Hocak work seems to have been largely forgotten even by other Americanists, which is so sad. Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 11/08/05 5:50 pm >>> I never met Ken, being part of a West Coast linguistics circuit that had very little to do with MIT, but I have to say, that is a wonderful bit of encouragement for a professor to give to a grad student. And of course, he was right. :-) David > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. > Carolyn Quintero > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies > > I know just what you mean. > > Koontz John E wrote: > >>I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >>of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >>is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >>feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. >> >>John E. Koontz >>http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz >> >> >> > > -- > Pamela Munro, > Professor, Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 > http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 9 13:37:31 2005 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:37:31 +0000 Subject: endangered languages grant In-Reply-To: <20051109004325.36178.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hearty congratulations John Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:03:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:03:07 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > Is there a connection to Ojibwa 'odana/odanah'. I don't think so, although I'm not the person to ask. I originally thought the town of Tama in Iowa, home of the Iowa Fox, might be an Algonquian borrowing of the Siouan and Muskogean 'town' word, but apparently the spelling stands for [tema] (don't now about V length) and has an Algonquian source. Bob -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:13:58 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:13:58 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Tom makes a good point. The /ttaNwaN/ part that generally gets translated 'town' is really most likely a term for an older ethnic division of a people, whether "band" or "clan" or some other . . . . This earlier meaning is bolstered by the use of the term (spelled -ton) in the Dakota /thuNwaN/ in the names of the Teton, Yankton, Sisseton, etc. It only takes on the meaning 'town' as groups became sedentary and moved to villages/towns. > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" Tom Leonard From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:15:16 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:15:16 -0600 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) Message-ID: Oops, sorry John. I responded before I read your more comprehensive and explanatory note. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 1:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Tom Leonard wrote: > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" It's applied in that sense in Omaha to some extent, too, though I think there are other words for the concept, too. (Straying form the subject, there is no word for 'moiety' or half-tribe that I can discover.) The Dakota cognate form thuNwaN is the formant at the end of subtribe names, e.g., Yankton = IhaNkthuNwaN, Wahpeton = WakpethuNwaN, etc. In Omaha ttaNwaN- tends to be be reduced to ttaN-aN (rearticulated or long with falling pitch) as I recall it, and I gather that something similar happens with Dakota thuNwaN, explaining why French speakers conventionally recorded it as -ton. (I think David mentioned this once, long ago!) I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. Compare Omaha(-Ponca) S^aaN TtaNwaNgdhaN 'Sioux City'. I think the relatedness of 'clan, tribe' and 'village' provides a historical insight into the culture of Native America pre-contact, in the same way the connection or identity of words for 'cloud' and 'sky' does, and so on. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:24:42 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:24:42 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Hi Anthony, The whole idea of the list is to enable us to make equal opportunity twits of ourselves! :-) The problem is the "chito" part. Too bad we can't have the Choctaw tamaha (which I've also personally heard as [tomaha] ) and the Ohio Val. Siouan -itan 'big'. Together they make a beautiful pair. Short of positing a new Siouan-Choctaw creole, I can't make it work. My recollection is that the explorers who wrote about the Tomahitans spent some time with them and probably got the name right. But who knows? Oh, by the way, the message didn't go off-list for some reason. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 4:50 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Bob: could it be a seriuously mangled misspelling of tamaha chito 'big town' in Choctaw? I'#m sending you this off-list in case it's wrong and I make a twit of myself. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 11/08/05 2:46 pm >>> >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:25:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:25:37 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: I'm starting to have second thoughts. How widespread is the term in Algonquian? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 5:10 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a borrowing from Siouan? Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. Michael Quoting "\"Alfred W. Tüting\"" : > > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN > part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used > separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the > gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something > inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether > any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << > > > Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a > somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a > town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like > 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ > in Lakota. > > (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel > owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi > he (sic!).") > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 15:59:34 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:59:34 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded across Algonquian to be a loan. So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. Dave ---------- >From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: Tomahittan? >Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2005, 3:10 am > > Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a > borrowing from Siouan? > > Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. > > Michael > > Quoting "\"Alfred W. Tüting\"" : > >> > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN >> part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used >> separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the >> gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something >> inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether >> any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << >> >> >> Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a >> somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a >> town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like >> 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ >> in Lakota. >> >> (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel >> owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi >> he (sic!).") >> >> >> Alfred >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 16:09:10 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:09:10 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Just as a possible note of interest: The only difference between the Biloxi words for taN 'town' and the oft suffixed version of nithani 'big' -thaN appears to be the aspiration after t in the case of 'big'. I wonder if they would have actually said, taNthaN, 'big town' ! (I don't think there's evidence of it in the texts, at least that I've seen so far.) Dave --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 16:13:12 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:13:12 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Pretty darn wide. Ojibwe /oodena/, Shawnee /hote:we/, Fox /o:te:weni/, Munsee Delaware /o:té:nay/, Abenaki /odena/, Massachusett , etc. Offhand I don't know if it's in the Plains languages. Dave ---------- >From: "Rankin, Robert L" >To: >Subject: RE: Tomahittan? >Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2005, 7:25 am > > I'm starting to have second thoughts. How widespread is the term in > Algonquian? Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of mmccaffe at indiana.edu > Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 5:10 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Tomahittan? > > > > Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a > borrowing from Siouan? > > Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. > > Michael > > Quoting "\"Alfred W. Tüting\"" : > >> > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN >> part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used >> separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the >> gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something >> inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether >> any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << >> >> >> Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a >> somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a >> town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like >> 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ >> in Lakota. >> >> (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel >> owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi >> he (sic!).") >> >> >> Alfred >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 17:47:07 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:47:07 -0700 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. That's such a wonderful thing to have said! I believe Ken Hale encouraged a great many students to do descriptive linguistics, with equal emphasis on descriptive and linguistics, from what I've seen. This might be a good moment to remember Josie White Eagle, too: also unfortunately no longer with us. She was one of Ken's students and another fellow Siouanist. From goodtracks at gbronline.com Wed Nov 9 16:00:19 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:00:19 -0600 Subject: endangered languages grant Message-ID: Double that for me John, Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: Re: endangered languages grant > Hearty congratulations John > Bruce > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new > Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:02:40 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:02:40 -0700 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, J.E. Koontz wrote: > I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in > Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. My error - othuNwahe (*not* *uthuNwaNhe, let alone *othuNwaHe), as Alfred Tueting points out. Very likely the -he part is a standing positional, too, as he also observes. I think Dakota haN/he is from PSi *thaN/*the, and so the -he here is cognate with OP the in my suggestion than gdhaN being from dhaN and dhaN/g-dhaN being parallel with the/g-dhe 'stand' and *he/k-he 'lie', although the morphonophonemics of the stems differs markedly. The hypothetical *he 'lie' form doesn't match Dakota he even though it has the same shape. The from -thuNwa- before -he in othuNwahe may suggest that the final nasal in thuNwaN is by nasal spreading from the initial uN through the w. (Compare tuNwaN ~ tuNwe 'see', if I remember the form correctly, which is asking a lot these days.) However, Dhegiha ttaNwaN- also shows the spreading. From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 9 18:29:44 2005 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (jpboyle at uchicago.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:29:44 -1100 Subject: endangered languages grant and CELCNA Conference Message-ID: Dear all, Thanks for the many congratulations. The ELF grant is proving to be extremely helpful in the development of pedagogical material for the revitalization efforts for Hidatsa. I also wanted to send out the call for the 2nd CELCNA conference. This was a very good conference last year and I have no doubt that it will be extremely informative and helpful this time as well. All the best, John Boyle -------------------------- CONFERENCE ON ENDANGERED LANGUAGES AND CULTURES OF NATIVE AMERICA Call for Papers Dates: The Conference on Endangered Languages and Cultures of Native America (2nd annual CELCNA conference) will be held March 31-April 2, 2006, on the University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. Keynote speaker: Victor Golla. Call for papers: We invite papers dealing with any aspect of endangered Native American languages, in particular on documentation or revitalization. Native American participants are especially invited. Papers are 20 minutes each in length, with an additional 10 minutes for discussion. Deadline: ABSTRACTS MUST BE RECEIVED by Jan. 16, 2006. The program committee will attempt to provide notification of acceptance by Jan. 30 (by e- mail). Features to note: Session in Spanish (ponencias en español): One session will be set aside on Sunday morning, April 2, for papers in Spanish. Abstracts in Spanish (or English) can be submitted for consideration for this session. (Due to popular demand.) Posters: Abstracts are also invited for the poster session. This can include also demonstration of tools and toys for language documentation. Forum discussions: The program will include open discussion sessions dedicated to: (1) Discussion of training for documentation of endangered languages, and employment considerations for students dedicated to work with endangered languages. (2) Databasing and aids for language documentation. (3) Open forum to address matters that arise during the conference. Abstract submission guidelines: • The abstract should be no more than 500 words in length. It should include the title of the paper and the name (or names) of the author/authors, together with the author’s/authors’ affiliation. (If the paper is accepted, this abstract will be reproduced in conference materials to be distributed to other participants.) • Abstracts should be submitted by e-mail. Submissions should be in Microsoft Word document, Rich Text Format (RTF), or Portable Document Format (PDF). If possible, avoid special fonts (or arrange with the organizers so they can be read). • Please include with your abstract appropriate contact details, which include: contact author’s name, e-mail address for the period of time from January to April 2006, and a telephone contact number. • Only one abstract per person may be submitted. (The only exception may be in instances where at least one of the papers has multiple authors.) • Address: Please send abstracts to: z.pischnotte at utah.edu (by Jan. 16, 2006). Accommodations: University Guest House, the official conference hotel – 100 yards from the meeting venue (Officers’ Club) and CAIL (Center for American Indian Languages). To book accommodations, please contact the Guest House directly (mention CELCNA for the conference booking): University Guest House University of Utah 110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 Toll free: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu (Please make reservations early, since rooms will be held for the conference only until early March.) Sponsors: The sponsors of this conference are: (1) Center for American Indian Languages (CAIL), University of Utah, (2) Smithsonian Institution Department of Anthropology of the National Museum of Natural History, (3) Department of Linguistics, U of Utah and (4) College of Humanities, University of Utah. Registration fee: $35. Additional information: for further information contact: Zeb Pischnotte z.pischnotte at utah.edu, or for particular questions, write to Lyle Campbell at lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu. If you need information not easily arranged via e-mail, please call: Tel. 801-587-0720 or 801-581-3341 during business hours (Mountain Standard Time), or Fax 801-585-7351. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:38:48 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:38:48 -0700 Subject: Procedural Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Oh, by the way, [Tony's] message didn't go off-list for some reason. I mention the following in the feeble hope that it may influence usage! Watch your mail client software carefully. Increasingly they ignore the standard conventions in interpreting e-mail headers. It may be possible to influence their behavior by working with their configuration options. Mail from a list goes out in one of two patterns, depending on how the list is configured. If the list is configured for use in sending out announcements, discouraging discussion, it will simply provide the sender's address in the from-header of mailings. Any reply should go to the sender, not the list. If the list is configured to encourage shared discussion, and the Siouan list is, the list provides the original sender's address in the from-header and the list address in the reply-to-header. A mail client is then supposed to reply by default to the reply-to-header address, and offer an option of replying to the original sender instead. Some mail clients reply always to the original sender or to both or default to the original sender with the list as an option, etc. To avoid glitches, always check the address to see what it's actually doing. In a pinch I can remove private mail from the archive with the help of the folks at Linguist, but I can't remove from the mailboxes of everybody on the list. By the way, it's never necessary to reply to both the sender and the list as some correspondents on this list tend to do. It's possible that some confusions are caused because correspondents (or their mail clients) reply to the original sender and cc the list or vice versa. The original sender will always receive any reply sent to the list. Send only to the list (to reach everyone) or to the list member (to reach them alone). Of course, it's perfectly legitimate to write to the list and cc someone who is not on the list. I'm not sure exactly where Tony got crossed up, but I don't think he need fear that his contribution embarasses him! Another procedural issue. I may be the last peron on the list not using HTML-activated email, but, please, for the sake of any such individuals, don't reply on bold face or color or alternate fonts alone to distinguish between your comments and someone else's. In a non-HTML mail client all such distinctions disappear, producing a conversation in which everyone sounds exactly alike. Most mail clients have more or less automated management of "indentation" marks as a scheme for extended quotations. In older mailers these may look like a "greater than" sign in the margin, though more modern clients like Eudora display these as a bar in the margin. Most mailers (even poor old pine) allow you to automatically reformat paragraphs under the domain of an indentation mark. If you find yourself manually inserting "greater thans," then drop me a line off list and maybe we can figure a away around it. If manual insertion indeed seems to be necessary, please don't bother. In a pinch you can always fall back on a "quotative" line or phrase before each speaker's part. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:52:03 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:52:03 -0700 Subject: 'town' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, > a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed > as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen > in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded > across Algonquian to be a loan. > > So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. It might helpful to investigate this somewhat further. Are all the Algonquian corespondences regular? Are there other examples of this pattern of nominalization in -weni? Also, I'm not sure that the 'totem' example is an altogether convincing case of 'dwell together in a group', so I assume there must be other cases of *o:te:- in this sense? I think we have other cases where Algonquian forms with -e(n)- match Siouan ones with nasal vowels: 'bow', for example, cf. Siouan forms seeming to imply *waNaNt(ku) or *maNaNt(ku) vs. PA (approx.!) *mentekw-a. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 19:54:37 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:54:37 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. Moreover, as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial */-o:te:-/ which can be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ 'town', Menominee /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox /meno:tani/ 'the enemy side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') There are reshapings to the nominalizing endings that I think Ives has discussed somewhere, but otherwise it's regular. (And yes, */-weni/ is a very productive nominalizing suffix.) The morphology looks quite old to me. Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem' is cognate, it's /nin-d-oode-m/, where the possessive prefix is /nin-/, the first /d/ is epenthetic, and the /m/ marks possessed themes. One could debate the semantics of PA */o:te:-/, but these forms are all related, which is the main point. Frank Siebert noticed this Algonquian/Siouan resemblance back in the 1960's. What he said was "If the correspondence is more than fortuitous, the borrowing must have occurred in the earliest Proto-Algonquian times. It would appear that Siouan was probably the donor language." However, note that he qualifies the hell out of that statement, he doesn't explain why he thinks it went that direction, and he seems not to have been aware of the other derived forms sharing the same initial. In defense of the idea of it being a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial */o:/ is rather uncommon in Proto-Algonquian. All I can think of... Dave > It might helpful to investigate this somewhat further. Are all the > Algonquian corespondences regular? Are there other examples of this > pattern of nominalization in -weni? Also, I'm not sure that the 'totem' > example is an altogether convincing case of 'dwell together in a group', > so I assume there must be other cases of *o:te:- in this sense? > > I think we have other cases where Algonquian forms with -e(n)- match > Siouan ones with nasal vowels: 'bow', for example, cf. Siouan forms > seeming to imply *waNaNt(ku) or *maNaNt(ku) vs. PA (approx.!) *mentekw-a. > >> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > >> Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, >> a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed >> as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen >> in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded >> across Algonquian to be a loan. >> >> So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 23:38:00 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:38:00 -0700 Subject: 'town' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. > Moreover, as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial > */-o:te:-/ which can be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ > 'town', Menominee /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox > /meno:tani/ 'the enemy side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') ... > In defense of the idea of it being a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial > */o:/ is rather uncommon in Proto-Algonquian. One quick observation before I go off to ponder this: the competing form for *htuNwa(N) 'group of associated people' (waxing a little abstract here) - or at least for derivatives of that - as a 'town' word in Siouan is *o-hti 'dwell in a place' (= IN-dwell). What if Algonquian borrowed *ohti and massaged it into o:te:-weni et al., whereupon Siouan borrowed it back as *ohtuNwaN, cut it down to htuNwa(N) by analogy and put it back to work in various derivations from that? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 23:54:34 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an original Siouan form. Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and forth might be reasonable? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 15:38:04 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:38:04 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: Well, offhand I can't give any reasons why that *couldn't* have happened, but it definitely would have had to happen at the Proto-Algonquian level, no later. Then the question arises as to whether the Proto-Algonquians were geographically anywhere near the Proto-Siouans. I tend to think not, but what do I know? If Proto-Algonquian borrowed it, it very likely didn't borrow it as */ohti/, since Proto-Algonquian had preaspirated obstruents, and this etymon for sure has a plain */t/ in Algonquian. Dave > One quick observation before I go off to ponder this: the competing form for > *htuNwa(N) 'group of associated people' (waxing a little abstract here) - or > at least for derivatives of that - as a 'town' word in Siouan is *o-hti 'dwell > in a place' (= IN-dwell). What if Algonquian borrowed *ohti and massaged it > into o:te:-weni et al., whereupon Siouan borrowed it back as *ohtuNwaN, cut it > down to htuNwa(N) by analogy and put it back to work in various derivations > from that? >> These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. Moreover, >> as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial */-o:te:-/ which can >> be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ 'town', Menominee >> /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox /meno:tani/ 'the enemy >> side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') ... In defense of the idea of it being >> a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial */o:/ is rather uncommon in >> Proto-Algonquian. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 15:46:41 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:46:41 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: I can't speak to the Siouan forms, but I can say that since the 'bow' etymon is semantically transparent in Algonquian, I doubt if it was ever borrowed back into Algonquian. Dave > Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained > the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of > the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person > inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- > (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or > *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered > animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms > maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form > like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by > truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an > original Siouan form. > > Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku > instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the > loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would > simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. > > On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. > Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of > handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. > > Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and > forth might be reasonable? > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 11 13:59:12 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? (I doubt that it's reconstructible for Proto- Iroquoian, which has a time depth of, what?, 5000 years? What is the time depth hypothesized for Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? Michael Quoting David Costa : > I can't speak to the Siouan forms, but I can say that since the 'bow' etymon > is semantically transparent in Algonquian, I doubt if it was ever borrowed > back into Algonquian. > > Dave > > > Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained > > the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of > > the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person > > inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- > > (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or > > *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered > > animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms > > maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form > > like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by > > truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an > > original Siouan form. > > > > Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku > > instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the > > loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would > > simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. > > > > On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. > > Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of > > handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. > > > > Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and > > forth might be reasonable? > > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Nov 11 18:37:47 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:37:47 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: <1131717552.4374a3b015449@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In Proto-Northern-Iroquoian "bow" can be reconstructed as *a?e:na? (where ? is glottal stop and the e is nasalized and accented). The time depth is uncertain. Glottochronology led Lounsbury to a time depth on the order of 1,900 to 2,400 years, which seems to me greatly exaggerated. These languages are not all that different. I would suggest something under 1,000 years. Lounsbury's calculation for Proto-Iroquoian yielded 3,500 to 3,800 years, but that's probably also exaggerated. The fault is with glottochronology, not Lounsbury. Wally --On Friday, November 11, 2005 8:59 AM -0500 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for > Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? (I doubt that it's > reconstructible for Proto- Iroquoian, which has a time depth of, what?, > 5000 years? What is the time depth hypothesized for Proto-Siouan? > Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? > > Michael From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 11 19:39:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:39:11 -0600 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: > I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 20:58:30 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:58:30 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Nov 11 20:42:15 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:42:15 -0700 Subject: Nature article on Endangered Languages Message-ID: This article features John Boyle and Hidatasa, and quotes Bob Rankin as well. Siouan has made it into the national press. I credit David Harrison (also quoted) with bringing it to my attention. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NatureEndLang.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 922030 bytes Desc: URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 21:25:48 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:25:48 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Offhand, I don't have an actual Biloxi gloss for "bow." 'aNksi' appears to be the word used for 'arrow' and 'aNksapi' for 'gun.' However, the word 'aNksapixti' is given by Dorsey to mean "bow and arrows." The -xti suffix here is the augmentative suffix meaning 'large' or 'very,' which would seem to make it "large gun" (?). Dave David Costa wrote: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 11 21:41:05 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:41:05 -0500 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: Here's the thing. The Illinois-Indiana area sees the arrival of the bow and arrow around AD 600 to 700. Successfully determining which direction it arrives from is a problem since its appearance in the Midwest seems to be **everywhere at once** in the same time period, a little less than 1500 years ago, a mere tick of the clock. Now, determining where the bow came from when it entered this area of course depends on some established time depth *elsewhere*. But where is **that**? Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that right, Dave?). Bob's note about MVS borrowing Algonquian "bow" seems to suggest a north to south diffusion of the technology. The best recent discussion on the topic are McElrath et al., pages 17-18 in Emerson et al.'s (eds) "Late Woodland Societies" (Nebraska Press), which include some good citations, especially the Michael Shott articles. In the same volume Redmond and McCullough discuss Indiana sequences. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 21:45:08 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:45:08 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: Judging purely from what you've said here, I suspect aNksapi originally was the 'bow' word. Dave Offhand, I don't have an actual Biloxi gloss for "bow." 'aNksi' appears to be the word used for 'arrow' and 'aNksapi' for 'gun.' However, the word 'aNksapixti' is given by Dorsey to mean "bow and arrows." The -xti suffix here is the augmentative suffix meaning 'large' or 'very,' which would seem to make it "large gun" (?). Dave David Costa wrote: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Nov 11 22:48:37 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:48:37 -0600 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" In-Reply-To: <1131745265.43750ff192508@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I wonder if I could get a quick clarification from the Algonquianists on what all "Algonquian" and "Proto-Algonquian" covers. My understanding, picked up in bits and pieces over the years, is that Algonquian is divided into four major branches: Blackfoot; Cheyenne; Arapaho; and eastern or Great Lakes Algonquian, which includes all the rest. Blackfoot is supposed to be especially divergent. The big eastern group is supposed to be divided between a northeastern seaboard group and a more central Great Lakes/subarctic/prairie/eastern woodlands group. I've also heard that there are supposed to be a couple of small Algonquian-related languages in California. So when we talk about Proto-Algonquian, are we talking about the protolanguage of all the Algonquians, or just of the big eastern group? Or is my information/classification as given above notably incorrect? Thanks for any quick tutorials on this! Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 23:50:43 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 15:50:43 -0800 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: Well, Proto-Algonquian had a reconstructible term for "bow", a couple actually, but the situation isn't totally straightforward. One is exemplified by PA */me?tekwa:pyi/, which is transparently 'wood string' or 'tree string'. This is found throughout the Central and Plains languages, but NOT Cree or Eastern Algonquian. It reconstructs quite cleanly. The semantic transparency (and odd geographic distribution) of this term makes me suspect it's a neologism, tho at a late Proto-Algonquian or immediate post-Proto-Algonquian phase. Maybe the word was created in late post-PA time when they first acquired bows. The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. If bows & arrows were introduced after PA started to break up, then this word was probably already in the language. If so, it might have meant something else originally and then shifted its meaning to 'arrow'. That is, it would have originally designated whatever kind of weapon-projectile it was that arrows superceded. Darts? Dave > Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for > "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that > right, Dave?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 01:01:03 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:01:03 -0800 Subject: POTENTIAL SPAM: Re: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: When people talk about 'Proto-Algonquian', they mean the ancestor language of every Algonquian language, all the way from Blackfoot to Micmac, but not the California languages. The internal divisions of Algonquian are still controversial. It's now agreed on that there is a genetic grouping called 'Eastern Algonquian', which includes all the languages of the Eastern seaboard, from Nova Scotia to North Carolina. It shares a significant amount of phonological, morphological, and lexical developments. The morphological innovations are probably the most compelling. It's also agreed on that Blackfoot is by a big margin the most divergent member of the family, to the point where it's not used much in comparative or reconstructive work. Often it's hard to make sense of its innovations and to relate them to what's happening in the rest of the family. Beyond that, the internal divisions get very controversial. It's clear that Bloomfield's 'Central Algonquian' (Cree, Ojibwe, Fox, Menominee) is not a linguistic/genetic grouping, but just an areal grouping. Similarly, there is no linguistic/genetic grouping 'Plains Algonquian' -- Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Blackfoot are no closer to each other than they are to any other languages. However, there is some evidence for early borrowing back and forth between Arapaho and Cheyenne. However, some of us Algonquianists recognize a probably-genetic grouping that is variously called 'Eastern Great Lakes' or 'Core Central'. This consists of Ojibwe-Potawatomi, Shawnee, Sauk-Fox-Kickapoo, and Miami-Illinois. These languages share some intriguing phonological developments, but it hasn't been investigated too deeply. Eleven years ago Ives Goddard published a nice little piece that said that the divergences among the Algonquian languages suggest strongly that the family originated in the west, like in the northern Rockies or the Plateau, and then moved east, sort of shedding languages as it went along. The first language it split off was Blackfoot, followed by Arapaho, Cree-Montagnais, Menominee, Cheyenne, the 'Core Central' languages, and last, Eastern Algonquian. The reference is the following: Goddard, Ives. 1994. The West-to-East Cline in Algonquian Dialectology. In William Cowan, ed., Papers of the 25th Algonquian Conference 187-211. Ottawa: Carleton University. As for the California languages Wiyot and Yurok, they're very distantly related to Algonquian (and to each other). They're not called Algonquian languages -- rather, the two of them plus Algonquian proper are said to be in a larger grouping called 'Algic'. It's an ongoing controversy as to whether Wiyot and Yurok are themselves a subgroup. My opinion is that they are ('Ritwan' is what this group is called), but others don't agree. Hope this clarifies things. Dave > I wonder if I could get a quick clarification from the Algonquianists on what > all "Algonquian" and "Proto-Algonquian" covers. > My understanding, picked up in bits and pieces over the years, is that > Algonquian is divided into four major branches: Blackfoot; Cheyenne; Arapaho; > and eastern or Great Lakes Algonquian, which includes all the rest. Blackfoot > is supposed to be especially divergent. The big eastern group is supposed to > be divided between a northeastern seaboard group and a more central Great > Lakes/subarctic/prairie/eastern woodlands group. I've also heard that there > are supposed to be a couple of small Algonquian-related languages in > California. > So when we talk about Proto-Algonquian, are we talking about the protolanguage > of all the Algonquians, or just of the big eastern group? Or is my > information/classification as given above notably incorrect? > Thanks for any quick tutorials on this! > Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 01:52:46 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:52:46 -0800 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: I'm not comfortable positing dates for the age of Proto-Algonquian, but at a gut hunch level, I don't think 2,000 years is enough. Dave > Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for > "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that > right, Dave?). From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 12 17:24:12 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:24:12 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably atlatl darts. Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' root. This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a look-alike. Bob > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. > However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 19:17:48 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:17:48 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably > atlatl darts. > Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when > there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' > root. This is intriguingly tho probably coincidentally similar to Shawnee: Shawnee 'arrow' is /hilenalwi/, which is literally 'ordinary bullet'. Shawnee 'bullet' is /halwi/, which is from PA */a0wi/ 'arrow' (As far as I know the only reconstructible non-possessed etymon for the concept). The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of course, the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which derives from the old 'bow' word. > This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of > the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder > if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not > 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two > syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a > look-alike. Well, I think it's really a Siouanist's judgement call as to whether that kind of borrowing is likely, tho I can at least say that in Algonquian, that /-api/ part is the part that means 'string'. Dave From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 21:14:12 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:14:12 -0800 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). > Wow! So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably atlatl darts. Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' root. This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a look-alike. Bob > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. > However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 12 22:38:09 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:38:09 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca 'real deer'. I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an augmentative. Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 14 00:57:32 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:57:32 -0800 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. It'll be interesting to see where else this 'real' -xti suffix pops up. Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending would be here though. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca 'real deer'. I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an augmentative. Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Nov 14 13:19:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:19:06 -0500 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: <20051114005733.8678.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting David Kaufman : > Thanks, Bob. It'll be interesting to see where else this 'real' -xti suffix > pops up. > > Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on > 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she > transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she > thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may > actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending > would be here though. > > Dave > In an (un)connected note, Uto-Aztecan Nahuatl has the borrowing "cahuayo" for "horse". However, in compounds, the stem for "deer" prevails, e.g., < mazacalli > 'it is a/the stable' from < maza- > 'deer' and < -cal- > 'house'. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 16:28:28 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:28:28 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending would be here though. Me either, but I think you're on the right track with /ta/ or /tha/ 'deer'. This also matches the Muskogean pattern: Choctaw issi+oba 'deer+augmentative' = 'horse' and Creek ico+lhakko 'deer+big' = 'horse'. So I'd look for hoxka to be a modifier or verb along those lines. You'll probably find other examples of it somewhere. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 16:48:48 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:48:48 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > In an (un)connected note, Uto-Aztecan Nahuatl has the borrowing "cahuayo" for "horse". However, in compounds, the stem for "deer" prevails, e.g., < mazacalli > 'it is a/the stable' from < maza- > 'deer' and < -cal- > 'house'. Neat. And another nice example of the principle that, when looking for conservative forms of a word, prefer the root in the DERIVED and COMPOUNDED forms to the independent word. Benveniste found this fairly systematically in the Indo-European cognate sets for 'family', 'clan' and 'tribe'. The independent forms of the reflexes in the different subgroups had all sorts of meanings -- 'village, neighborhood, nation, people, etc.' but in the compound or derived terms for the person who presided over each of the groups the original meanings were well preserved making semantic reconstruction (and reconstruction of the levels of PIE society) relatively easy. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:10:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:10:19 -0700 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > Well, I think it's really a Siouanist's judgement call as to whether that > kind of borrowing is likely, tho I can at least say that in Algonquian, that > /-api/ part is the part that means 'string'. It would make sense to refer to a bow in terms of "string (or sinew) projection" of darts as opposed to "thrower (atlatl) projection." I think the usual way archaeologists distinguish the two technologies, since throwers and bows aren't usually preserved, is from the size of the projectile heads. Thrown darts are somewhat larger and heavier than bow-launched darts. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in construction, and the elements that do get preserved - points and the tools for producing and maintaining the points and shafts - are similar, though different in size. I had been thinking that Biloxi aNksi 'arrow, bullet' vs. aNksapi(=xti) might involve -sapi 'black'. There are various difficulties with that, however, - mainly the missing -si-, and though I think this approach would bear further consideration, the comparison of -api with the Algonquian 'bowstring' final that Bob suggests is also interesting. On the other hand, a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. Identical or similar (related) terms for bullet and arrow is a pretty standard pattern. MaN is 'arrow(head)' in OP, and I think I have seen that for 'bullet' as well as maNzemaN 'metal arrow'. We might want to be a bit careful in assuming that Biloxi aNksapi 'gun' vs. aNksapi=xti 'real aNksapi' = 'bow and arrows' derives from a form actually referring to bow technology. I suspect that a form coined to refer to or describe a gun could also take =xti to make it refer to a bow. We've discussed 'bow' terms before, extensively. You can search at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html Note: (word1) and (word2) is the way to get posts with word1 and word2 as opposed to word1 word2 which gets posts with the phrase "word1 word2." From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:17:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:17:47 -0700 Subject: =xti 'Real' (RE: "bow") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. > *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer > term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan > dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) > buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca > 'real deer'. Or, even without attested forms involving 'buffalo', OP has tta=xti 'deer'. Along the same lines there is a Ponca subclan called ppaNkka=xti. This probably reflects the original ppaNkka clan (as opposed to the whole tribe, called by the same name). PpaNkka is one of the "standard" Dhegiha clans. > I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, > but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an > augmentative. Bob I think we had an example for 'dog' from Crow recently. I will leave tracking it down as an exercise for the reader! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:41:41 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:41:41 -0700 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word > for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of > course, the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which > derives from the old 'bow' word. Does the plural mtekwaapali involve the *-aapy- final? If so, does the singular mtekwa not? Also, in regard to an earlier comment: > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA > */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found > in Eastern). I take it that 'bowstring' is the inanimate gender form of the stem *a?caapy- while 'bow' is the animate form? Am I remembering correctly that animate *me?tekw-a is (sometimes?) 'bow', while inanimate *me?tekw-i is 'stick'? It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 19:32:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:32:14 -0600 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" Message-ID: > a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. But we do have common Dhegiha *mite 'bow' borrowed from Algonquian being remodeled using Dhegiha *ma 'arrow' and coming out modern maNte in some of the languages. Mita is Algonquian while ma- is Siouan. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 19:49:55 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:49:55 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also correct. The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan speakers tended to lose patience. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Nov 14 20:00:50 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:00:50 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Um, no. Menominee has /mE?tekuap/ 'bowstring, bow'. No Algonquian language has a /tk/ cluster in this word, not even Potawatomi. >> It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a >> hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the >> Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and >> *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan >> dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was >> =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack >> synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. > Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS > either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern > forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian > dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is > that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can > correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the > second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also > correct. > The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has > the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the > word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan > speakers tended to lose patience. > Bob From boris at terracom.net Mon Nov 14 20:00:22 2005 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:00:22 -0600 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bloomfield's Menomini Lexicon Has: mEqtekuap (-yak, -yan) An and inam 'bowstring, bow' nemE:qtekwap 'my bowstring' nemE:qtEk 'my bow' omE:qtekwan 'his bow' -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Nov 14 23:14:43 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:14:43 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: >> The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word >> for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of course, >> the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which derives >> from the old 'bow' word. > Does the plural mtekwaapali involve the *-aapy- final? If so, does the > singular mtekwa not? /mtekwaapali/ is from the old 'bowstring' word (so yes it contains *-aapy-); /mtekwa/ is the old 'tree/bow' word. For some reason they merged as a single lexeme in Shawnee, with the meaning 'gun'. This is not regular, but Shawnee 'house' works the same way: sing. /wiikiwa/, plural /wiikiwaapali/. The inanimate equivalent means 'tree': Shawnee /mtekwi/, plural /mteko/. > Also, in regard to an earlier comment: >> The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA >> */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in >> Eastern). > I take it that 'bowstring' is the inanimate gender form of the stem *a?caapy- > while 'bow' is the animate form? Yes, */a?ca:pyi/ is inanimate, */a?ta:pya/ is animate. But the discrepancy in the consonants is irregular. > Am I remembering correctly that animate *me?tekw-a is (sometimes?) 'bow', > while inanimate *me?tekw-i is 'stick'? Not exactly. In Ojibwe, the word is /mitig/, and when animate it means 'tree', and when inanimate it means 'stick'. The same situation seems to prevail in Potawatomi and Menominee. (As an animate possessed noun, the Menominee word means 'bow'.) However, Fox and Miami don't seem to do anything like that. Dave From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 15 00:43:11 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:43:11 -0700 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. > > But we do have common Dhegiha *mite 'bow' borrowed from Algonquian being > remodeled using Dhegiha *ma 'arrow' and coming out modern maNte in some > of the languages. Mita is Algonquian while ma- is Siouan. Most of the probable loans from Algonquian do seem to be somewhat remodelled. However, I'm not sure we can be sure that reflexes of PA *me?tekw-a were always borrowed with miNte and then reformulated by analogy with *maN 'arrow'. I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. What we have, if I recall is: Da ita(zipa) < ita + zipa, with ita assumed to be from *mi(N)ta, reanalyzed as a first person possessive of a stem ita. OP maN(aN)'de Ks miN(iN)j^e (?) Os miN(iN)ce (?) Qu IO maN(aN)hdu < *maNaNktu, regular metathesis from *maNaNtku Wi maNaNc^gu' I think it's the Dakota and Ks-Os forms that have iN, while OP, IO, and Wi have aN. Given aN in IO and Wi, perhaps aN is OP is original. And how about the aN ~ iN alternations in 'grizzly' and, I think, some other terms? Of course, it's likely that the term was borrowed into PDh, perhaps already a dialect continuum at the time time, though I doubt Os and Ks were distinct. But it seems difficult to be sure that the form was borrowed as *miNiNte and reformulated. It might as easily have been borrowed as *maNaNte and reformulated. Or maybe a foreign sounding *mNte was borrowed and reformulated variously. The Dakota form could easily have been borrowed separately. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 01:21:07 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:21:07 -0800 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" Message-ID: Proto-Algonquian */me?tekwa/ (or some early daughter-language form) *could* have meant 'bow', but the evidence is much better that it would have meant 'tree'. > I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the > Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which > I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 15 02:32:51 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:32:51 -0700 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > > JEK: > > I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the > > Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which > > I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. > > Proto-Algonquian */me?tekwa/ (or some early daughter-language form) *could* > have meant 'bow', but the evidence is much better that it would have meant > 'tree'. I'm falling back on Shawnee (Costa): > /mtekwaapali/ is from the old 'bowstring' word (so yes it contains > *-aapy-); /mtekwa/ is the old 'tree/bow' word <====. For some reason > they merged as a single lexeme in Shawnee, with the meaning 'gun'. Menominee (Knutson): > Bloomfield's Menomini Lexicon Has: > mEqtekuap (-yak, -yan) An and inam 'bowstring, bow' > nemE:qtekwap 'my bowstring' > nemE:qtEk 'my bow' <===== > omE:qtekwan 'his bow' Maybe Cheyenne ma'ts^e^s^ke fits here, too? (I seem to recall something shorter in one source or another - this is from an on-line list. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps shorter forms based on animates of 'wood' had some separate existence in the sense 'bow', perhaps for possessed forms? Incidentally, again quoting David: > This is not regular, but Shawnee 'house' works the same way: sing. > /wiikiwa/, plural /wiikiwaapali/. I'm guessing that the plural of 'house' isn't wikiup+string, and so there must be some other basis for the -aapili in this plural? (Sorry - my ignorance of Algonquian knows few bounds!) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 15 15:17:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:17:37 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Oops, sorry 'bout that. I used to talk about Menomini a lot with Ken Miner, but can't blame him for the form. Is the U of the syllable -ku- a syllabic vowel or just a grapheme for W? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Mon 11/14/2005 2:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "bow" Um, no. Menominee has /mE?tekuap/ 'bowstring, bow'. No Algonquian language has a /tk/ cluster in this word, not even Potawatomi. >> It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a >> hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the >> Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and >> *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan >> dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was >> =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack >> synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. > Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS > either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern > forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian > dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is > that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can > correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the > second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also > correct. > The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has > the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the > word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan > speakers tended to lose patience. > Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 15 19:15:00 2005 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:15:00 EST Subject: POTENTIAL SPAM: Crow speakers Message-ID: The following are excerpts from an article that appeared in the Big Horn County News, Hardin, Montana, last week. I thought it might be of interest to readers of the Siouan list. "Riley Singer and Hans Hill were found to be the only fluent Crow speakers among the 233 Crow students at Hardin Middle School. For them, it is a language that is spoken in the home, a first language. "Last Friday, in front of the entire student body, the two sixth grade boys addressed their peers in their native language. In an assembly meshing Red Ribbon Week and the culmination of Native American Week, both boys took to the stage to introduce themselves in their native Crow language. They gave their Apsa'alooke names, their clan affiliations and what their interests are, for all of the student body to hear. "Singer, because of his fluency and age, was part of the history project with the Western Heritage Center in Billings, and was invited to speak there in his native tongue.... "At the forefront of awareness during the week, was the noticeable decline of Crow youth who are fluent in their tribal language. Many, if not most of the Crow students can understand Crow or have the gist, but the majority of the response is given back in English." There are a few other young speakers on the reservation, but not many. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poulsente at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 21:39:31 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:39:31 -0700 Subject: previous post Message-ID: Hhello earlier I had posted to the Siouanlist, the names of several eastern souian Chiefs names from 1713 treaty signing, has nayone one replied to them? From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 28 22:30:36 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:30:36 -0600 Subject: FW: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Message-ID: Some info for those of you using the Gentium font. As far as I know it is about the only one that has all the characters necessary to reproduce virtually ANY of the Siouan character sets -- old or new. Bob ________________________________ From: Gentium-Announce on behalf of Gentium-Announce List Sent: Mon 11/28/2005 7:58 AM To: Gentium-Announce Subject: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Gentium-Announce List Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License - - - - - - - - Dear friends of Gentium, We're thrilled to announce that we have re-released Gentium under a free/open-source license - the SIL Open Font License (OFL). This will give much greater freedom to everyone using the fonts, and allow for easier inclusion in free, open-source and commercial software packages. The only changes we've made in addition to the licensing change were a couple of bug fixes releated to PostScript glyph names and to the reported italic angle. All of this can be found at http://scripts.sil.org/gentium We know that many of you have been waiting for eons for Bold and Bold Italic, more ancient Greek letters (like the digamma), etc. We have been working on these (very sporadically) over the last couple of years, but they're not ready yet. We hope to have a greatly improved set of Regular and Italic out mid next year, and then work on completing the additional weights. In the meantime, if the lack of one letter is hindering you, the OFL now gives you the freedom to change the fonts, and even distribute modified versions - with some conditions. We also warmly welcome your submissions of work to be included in the main Gentium project. See the Status page on the web site for details. Thanks for your continued interest in Gentium. Victor Gaultney Gentium /at/ sil.org ############################################################# This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: Send administrative queries to gentium at sil.org From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 28 22:48:22 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:48:22 -0800 Subject: FW: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. Gentium has definitely come in handy for the Biloxi dictionary! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Some info for those of you using the Gentium font. As far as I know it is about the only one that has all the characters necessary to reproduce virtually ANY of the Siouan character sets -- old or new. Bob ________________________________ From: Gentium-Announce on behalf of Gentium-Announce List Sent: Mon 11/28/2005 7:58 AM To: Gentium-Announce Subject: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Gentium-Announce List Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License - - - - - - - - Dear friends of Gentium, We're thrilled to announce that we have re-released Gentium under a free/open-source license - the SIL Open Font License (OFL). This will give much greater freedom to everyone using the fonts, and allow for easier inclusion in free, open-source and commercial software packages. The only changes we've made in addition to the licensing change were a couple of bug fixes releated to PostScript glyph names and to the reported italic angle. All of this can be found at http://scripts.sil.org/gentium We know that many of you have been waiting for eons for Bold and Bold Italic, more ancient Greek letters (like the digamma), etc. We have been working on these (very sporadically) over the last couple of years, but they're not ready yet. We hope to have a greatly improved set of Regular and Italic out mid next year, and then work on completing the additional weights. In the meantime, if the lack of one letter is hindering you, the OFL now gives you the freedom to change the fonts, and even distribute modified versions - with some conditions. We also warmly welcome your submissions of work to be included in the main Gentium project. See the Status page on the web site for details. Thanks for your continued interest in Gentium. Victor Gaultney Gentium /at/ sil.org ############################################################# This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: Send administrative queries to gentium at sil.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:14:53 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:14:53 -0700 Subject: "saponi Treaty signers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poulsente at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:00:16 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:00:16 -0700 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 8 00:08:31 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:08:31 -0700 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 14:46:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:38 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 15:04:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:04:11 -0600 Subject: "saponi Treaty signers" Message-ID: The term "Hoontky" is probably 'chief'. I think this is established in other documents. It is also spelled "hoontsky" in some documents. The Tutelo name, below, Mawseeuntky, probably contains the term also -- written "untky". My suspicion is that this is cognate with Mississippi Valley Siouan *huNka 'one who has been blessed, ancestor, leader' (Dhegiha hoNga, etc.). If this is the case, we would have yet another lexeme in which Ohio Valley Siouan has a /-tk-/ cluster where the rest of Siouan has just /k/. Other such terms include 'younger brother' (suNtk-). The name of the Stuckanox chief strongly suggests that she was a woman (miha). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of tom poulsen Sent: Mon 11/7/2005 5:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re:"saponi Treaty signers" Hello Mr koontz The following names are from a treaty with the eastern souian people Iam hoping that you maybe able to help with a translation. The names are as follows: Tawhee Sockha Hoontky of the Saponies;, Nehawroose (hehaurooss) in behalf of Hoonthmiya (hoontky miha) of the Stukanoes; Chaweo ; or chawco Hooutky(sp) of the Occaneechis Mawseeuntky, Hoontky of the Tottero Signed at Williamsburg the 27th day of February 1713. Also can you translate sissipaha, there's various spellings of the last word, however any input that you can share would be great! Thank you very much Tom Poulsen ps how do I contact robert Rankin? ________________________________ From: Koontz John E Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Tomahittan? Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:02 -0600 (MDT) >On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, R. Rankin wrote: > > No. There is no locative prefix with the shape to- in Siouan. Some > > people are obsessed with "big turkeys" and also analyze Mosopelea as > > 'big turkey'. What is it about turkeys? > From munro at ucla.edu Tue Nov 8 15:59:10 2005 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 07:59:10 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know just what you mean. Koontz John E wrote: >I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 8 17:14:10 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:14:10 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm wondering what OP gdh- looks like in other Siouan languages, especially Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? I think I understand that words like gdhe, gdhaN, gdhiN, gdhi, etc, reflect an original *kire', *kiraN', *kiriN', *kiri', with the initial *ki- being a possessive or reflexive 'action with respect to self' element. Is this correct? Rory From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 17:16:28 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:16:28 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies In-Reply-To: <4370CB4E.8080304@ucla.edu> Message-ID: Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to do it," he said. Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies I know just what you mean. Koontz John E wrote: >I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. > >John E. Koontz >http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Nov 8 17:23:43 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:23:43 -0700 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Rory, That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive forms of y- stem verbs. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Rory M Larson wrote: > I'm wondering what OP gdh- looks like in other Siouan languages, especially > Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? I think I understand that words like gdhe, > gdhaN, gdhiN, gdhi, etc, reflect an original *kire', *kiraN', *kiriN', > *kiri', with the initial *ki- being a possessive or reflexive 'action with > respect to self' element. Is this correct? > > Rory > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 17:50:29 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:50:29 -0800 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I never met Ken, being part of a West Coast linguistics circuit that had very little to do with MIT, but I have to say, that is a wonderful bit of encouragement for a professor to give to a grad student. And of course, he was right. :-) David > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. > Carolyn Quintero > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies > > I know just what you mean. > > Koontz John E wrote: > >>I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >>of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >>is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >>feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. >> >>John E. Koontz >>http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz >> >> >> > > -- > Pamela Munro, > Professor, Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 > http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm > > > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 8 21:55:04 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:55:04 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 8 23:13:42 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:13:42 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. > Don't know how much this will help here, but I can tell you that the word for 'town' in Biloxi is taN and is used in many placenames, a good example being TaN NithaNyaN, Big Town, meaning New Orleans. Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? This ending is added to most placenames in Biloxi and the best I can come up with so far based on other places where -yaN occurs is that it means 'that place over yonder, over there' or perhaps, as you hypothesize, 'immovable object.' Dave Rory M Larson wrote: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 23:32:50 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:32:50 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi additional dialect material available in Doug Parks' on-line dictionaries. QU kde kdaN kdiN kdi KS le laN liN li (Osage same) BI kidi TU gili also gri I didn't look up the other three stems, but they have a similar outcome in the SE. Biloxi and Tutelo illustrate the Ohio Valley Siouan outcome of the cluster. Dakotan hd is recent and descends from *kr. Loss of the initial syllable vowel pretty much has to be before the breakup of Mississippi Valley Siouan as all languages of the subgroup are affected (Winnebago re-adds a copy vowel late). The /ithaN/ of Tomahitan would be a perfect Ohio Val. Siouan 'big', but the rest doesn't fit Siouan generally. I wish it did. Bob A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 8 23:53:13 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:13 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? I apologize for the cold water, but -yaN isn't demonstrably cognate with *kraN either. The BI match for *k(i)r- is /kid-/, possibly reduced contextually to /kd/. The *k stays in the cluster. The BI /taN/ 'town' is probably related to the Dakotan /thuNwaN/, Dhegiha ttaNwaN, KS ttaNmaN, etc. Very similar forms are found in Western Muskogean (not in the East), so the term seems to have been borrowed around a bit, but it probably originates in Siouan. By the way, it is NOT related to English "town" since it is attested in Lakota before close contact with English speakers and it is attested in virtually all MVS languages except maybe WI. Bob From boris at terracom.net Wed Nov 9 00:08:44 2005 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:08:44 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a connection to Ojibwa 'odana/odanah'. Alan K > Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? I apologize for the cold water, but -yaN isn't demonstrably cognate with *kraN either. The BI match for *k(i)r- is /kid-/, possibly reduced contextually to /kd/. The *k stays in the cluster. The BI /taN/ 'town' is probably related to the Dakotan /thuNwaN/, Dhegiha ttaNwaN, KS ttaNmaN, etc. Very similar forms are found in Western Muskogean (not in the East), so the term seems to have been borrowed around a bit, but it probably originates in Siouan. By the way, it is NOT related to English "town" since it is attested in Lakota before close contact with English speakers and it is attested in virtually all MVS languages except maybe WI. Bob -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Nov 9 00:19:58 2005 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:19:58 -0600 Subject: endangered languages grant Message-ID: Congratulations to John Boyle for obtaining one of the Endangered Languages grants for further work on Hidatsa. An excellent choice! Mary From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 00:43:24 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:43:24 -0800 Subject: endangered languages grant In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20051108181722.01f1a008@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Congrats, John! Dave Marino wrote: Congratulations to John Boyle for obtaining one of the Endangered Languages grants for further work on Hidatsa. An excellent choice! Mary --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 01:21:33 2005 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:21:33 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: <20051108231342.26112.qmail@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: htaN'waN is the Osage word for 'town'. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Hi, > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. > Don't know how much this will help here, but I can tell you that the word for 'town' in Biloxi is taN and is used in many placenames, a good example being TaN NithaNyaN, Big Town, meaning New Orleans. Note that the Biloxi name also suffixes -yaN, which I'm thinking may somehow be related to -gdhaN? This ending is added to most placenames in Biloxi and the best I can come up with so far based on other places where -yaN occurs is that it means 'that place over yonder, over there' or perhaps, as you hypothesize, 'immovable object.' Dave Rory M Larson wrote: > Dear Rory, > That cluster is one of the few places where Lakota and Dakota > diverge sharply. In Lakota it's "gl" but in Dakota it's "hd". One > frequent place where it shows up is as you said -- for the possessive > forms of y- stem verbs. > > David Thanks, David! That's an excellent example of phonological variance in that cluster. So if we have: PSi: *kire' *kiraN' *kiriN' *kiri' we should get: OP: gdhe gdhaN gdhiN gdhi La: gle glaN gliN gli Da: hde hdaN hdiN hdi A hypothetical set intermediate between Proto-Siouan and Dakota might be: ??: *hide' *hidaN' *hidiN' *hidi' Or with a bit of de-voicing: ??: *hite' *hitaN' *hitiN' *hiti' The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', a! nd seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. This Tomahitan name is tempting, though. The "toma" has already been suggested as meaning 'town', and could easily be an English orthographical attempt at *htaN'waN or *htaN'maN, or some such. The hitaN looks like a reasonable reflex of *kiraN', which would give gdhaN in OP. It would be nice to know how the name was originally accented, though. If the name is Siouan, I suppose Southeastern would be the likeliest guess, followed by Dhegihan, Chiwere, and Unattested, in about that order. Perhaps Bob can fill us in on how that cluster works in Southeastern? Thanks, Rory > I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of u! s has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. >Bob _____ Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Nov 9 01:40:38 2005 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:40:38 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" Tom Leonard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 07:03:29 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 00:03:29 -0700 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) In-Reply-To: <003a01c5e4ce$964f4320$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Tom Leonard wrote: > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" It's applied in that sense in Omaha to some extent, too, though I think there are other words for the concept, too. (Straying form the subject, there is no word for 'moiety' or half-tribe that I can discover.) The Dakota cognate form thuNwaN is the formant at the end of subtribe names, e.g., Yankton = IhaNkthuNwaN, Wahpeton = WakpethuNwaN, etc. In Omaha ttaNwaN- tends to be be reduced to ttaN-aN (rearticulated or long with falling pitch) as I recall it, and I gather that something similar happens with Dakota thuNwaN, explaining why French speakers conventionally recorded it as -ton. (I think David mentioned this once, long ago!) I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. Compare Omaha(-Ponca) S^aaN TtaNwaNgdhaN 'Sioux City'. I think the relatedness of 'clan, tribe' and 'village' provides a historical insight into the culture of Native America pre-contact, in the same way the connection or identity of words for 'cloud' and 'sky' does, and so on. From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Nov 9 09:33:06 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:33:06 +0100 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ in Lakota. (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi he (sic!).") Alfred From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Nov 9 10:50:29 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:50:29 +0000 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Bob: could it be a seriuously mangled misspelling of tamaha chito 'big town' in Choctaw? I'#m sending you this off-list in case it's wrong and I make a twit of myself. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 11/08/05 2:46 pm >>> >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 9 11:10:10 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:10:10 -0500 Subject: Tomahittan? In-Reply-To: <4371C252.6010807@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a borrowing from Siouan? Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. Michael Quoting "\"Alfred W. T?ting\"" : > > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN > part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used > separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the > gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something > inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether > any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << > > > Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a > somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a > town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like > 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ > in Lakota. > > (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel > owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi > he (sic!).") > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Nov 9 12:15:06 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:15:06 +0000 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: I *did* meet ken briefly once (Albuquerque '95), and corresponded with him, and what he said to Carolyn was typical Ken - positive and supportive. His Hocak work seems to have been largely forgotten even by other Americanists, which is so sad. Anthony >>> pankihtamwa at earthlink.net 11/08/05 5:50 pm >>> I never met Ken, being part of a West Coast linguistics circuit that had very little to do with MIT, but I have to say, that is a wonderful bit of encouragement for a professor to give to a grad student. And of course, he was right. :-) David > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. > Carolyn Quintero > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Pamela Munro > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:59 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Obscure Ceremonies > > I know just what you mean. > > Koontz John E wrote: > >>I have retired Ken Hale's email address from the list. After many years >>of functioning perfectly well, if suddenly stopped working. No doubt this >>is simply a matter of changes or cleanup in the MIT email facility, but I >>feel nevertheless as if some milestone in Siouan studies has been passed. >> >>John E. Koontz >>http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz >> >> >> > > -- > Pamela Munro, > Professor, Linguistics, UCLA > UCLA Box 951543 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 > http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 9 13:37:31 2005 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:37:31 +0000 Subject: endangered languages grant In-Reply-To: <20051109004325.36178.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hearty congratulations John Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:03:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:03:07 -0600 Subject: [Spam:0005 SpamScore] RE: Tomahittan? Message-ID: > Is there a connection to Ojibwa 'odana/odanah'. I don't think so, although I'm not the person to ask. I originally thought the town of Tama in Iowa, home of the Iowa Fox, might be an Algonquian borrowing of the Siouan and Muskogean 'town' word, but apparently the spelling stands for [tema] (don't now about V length) and has an Algonquian source. Bob -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date: 11/8/2005 From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:13:58 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:13:58 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Tom makes a good point. The /ttaNwaN/ part that generally gets translated 'town' is really most likely a term for an older ethnic division of a people, whether "band" or "clan" or some other . . . . This earlier meaning is bolstered by the use of the term (spelled -ton) in the Dakota /thuNwaN/ in the names of the Teton, Yankton, Sisseton, etc. It only takes on the meaning 'town' as groups became sedentary and moved to villages/towns. > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" Tom Leonard From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:15:16 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:15:16 -0600 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) Message-ID: Oops, sorry John. I responded before I read your more comprehensive and explanatory note. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 1:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Tom Leonard wrote: > ttaN'waNgdhaN is the modern day Ponca word for "clan" It's applied in that sense in Omaha to some extent, too, though I think there are other words for the concept, too. (Straying form the subject, there is no word for 'moiety' or half-tribe that I can discover.) The Dakota cognate form thuNwaN is the formant at the end of subtribe names, e.g., Yankton = IhaNkthuNwaN, Wahpeton = WakpethuNwaN, etc. In Omaha ttaNwaN- tends to be be reduced to ttaN-aN (rearticulated or long with falling pitch) as I recall it, and I gather that something similar happens with Dakota thuNwaN, explaining why French speakers conventionally recorded it as -ton. (I think David mentioned this once, long ago!) I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. Compare Omaha(-Ponca) S^aaN TtaNwaNgdhaN 'Sioux City'. I think the relatedness of 'clan, tribe' and 'village' provides a historical insight into the culture of Native America pre-contact, in the same way the connection or identity of words for 'cloud' and 'sky' does, and so on. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:24:42 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:24:42 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Hi Anthony, The whole idea of the list is to enable us to make equal opportunity twits of ourselves! :-) The problem is the "chito" part. Too bad we can't have the Choctaw tamaha (which I've also personally heard as [tomaha] ) and the Ohio Val. Siouan -itan 'big'. Together they make a beautiful pair. Short of positing a new Siouan-Choctaw creole, I can't make it work. My recollection is that the explorers who wrote about the Tomahitans spent some time with them and probably got the name right. But who knows? Oh, by the way, the message didn't go off-list for some reason. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 4:50 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Bob: could it be a seriuously mangled misspelling of tamaha chito 'big town' in Choctaw? I'#m sending you this off-list in case it's wrong and I make a twit of myself. Anthony >>> rankin at ku.edu 11/08/05 2:46 pm >>> >I'd have thought that the -y- in Monyton went with the Moni- part? It goes with both parts actually. maNniN + ithaN. I've discussed Tomahitan with Ives and neither of us has an etymology for it. The H is in the way of considering it Siouan "Big Town". Toma also passes for Choctaw 'town', but hitan doesn't ring any Muskogean bells with me. Nobody really knows who these folks were. Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 9 15:25:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:25:37 -0600 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: I'm starting to have second thoughts. How widespread is the term in Algonquian? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 5:10 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Tomahittan? Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a borrowing from Siouan? Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. Michael Quoting "\"Alfred W. T?ting\"" : > > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN > part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used > separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the > gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something > inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether > any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << > > > Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a > somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a > town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like > 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ > in Lakota. > > (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel > owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi > he (sic!).") > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 15:59:34 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:59:34 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded across Algonquian to be a loan. So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. Dave ---------- >From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: RE: Tomahittan? >Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2005, 3:10 am > > Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a > borrowing from Siouan? > > Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. > > Michael > > Quoting "\"Alfred W. T?ting\"" : > >> > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN >> part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used >> separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the >> gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something >> inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether >> any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << >> >> >> Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a >> somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a >> town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like >> 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ >> in Lakota. >> >> (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel >> owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi >> he (sic!).") >> >> >> Alfred >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 16:09:10 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:09:10 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Just as a possible note of interest: The only difference between the Biloxi words for taN 'town' and the oft suffixed version of nithani 'big' -thaN appears to be the aspiration after t in the case of 'big'. I wonder if they would have actually said, taNthaN, 'big town' ! (I don't think there's evidence of it in the texts, at least that I've seen so far.) Dave --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 16:13:12 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:13:12 -0800 Subject: Tomahittan? Message-ID: Pretty darn wide. Ojibwe /oodena/, Shawnee /hote:we/, Fox /o:te:weni/, Munsee Delaware /o:t?:nay/, Abenaki /odena/, Massachusett , etc. Offhand I don't know if it's in the Plains languages. Dave ---------- >From: "Rankin, Robert L" >To: >Subject: RE: Tomahittan? >Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2005, 7:25 am > > I'm starting to have second thoughts. How widespread is the term in > Algonquian? Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of mmccaffe at indiana.edu > Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 5:10 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Tomahittan? > > > > Please excuse the fog, but is Potawatomi /odan/ and the like in Algonquian a > borrowing from Siouan? > > Towns were historically, its seems, a southern phenomenon. > > Michael > > Quoting "\"Alfred W. T?ting\"" : > >> > The word for 'town' in OP is something like ttaN'waNgdhaN. The ttaN'waN >> part of that is the root word for 'town', and seems to be used >> separately in naming specific towns. I've never been too sure what the >> gdhaN is about. My best guess has been that it indicates something >> inanimate fitting or sitting in a certain area. I'm don't know whether >> any other Siouan languages use an equivalent with the basic 'town' root. << >> >> >> Since 'town' is _otunwahe_ [otxuN'wahe] in Lakota (B. gives it in a >> somewhat more etymological sense as "a cluster of houses, a village, a >> town...") I'd also regard the idea of _gdhaN_ indicating smth like >> 'sitting', 'standing' of inanimates not too farfetched: this is _haN/he_ >> in Lakota. >> >> (Cf. the sentence in the CULP materials: "he otuwahe kin el tuktel >> owotetipi wanzi han (sic!) he? - Kal wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi >> he (sic!).") >> >> >> Alfred >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 17:47:07 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:47:07 -0700 Subject: Obscure Ceremonies Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2005, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Ken Hale was the first East Coast linguist who was enthusiastic about my > working on Osage, years ago in Massachusetts. I was very grateful for his > guidance. "It's not that you should do it, Carolyn, it's that you HAVE to > do it," he said. That's such a wonderful thing to have said! I believe Ken Hale encouraged a great many students to do descriptive linguistics, with equal emphasis on descriptive and linguistics, from what I've seen. This might be a good moment to remember Josie White Eagle, too: also unfortunately no longer with us. She was one of Ken's students and another fellow Siouanist. From goodtracks at gbronline.com Wed Nov 9 16:00:19 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:00:19 -0600 Subject: endangered languages grant Message-ID: Double that for me John, Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: Re: endangered languages grant > Hearty congratulations John > Bruce > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new > Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:02:40 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:02:40 -0700 Subject: Town; Clan (Re: Tomahittan?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, J.E. Koontz wrote: > I think the independent Dakotan form is othuNwaNhe 'town', as in > Mniluzaha othuNwaHe 'Rapid City'. My error - othuNwahe (*not* *uthuNwaNhe, let alone *othuNwaHe), as Alfred Tueting points out. Very likely the -he part is a standing positional, too, as he also observes. I think Dakota haN/he is from PSi *thaN/*the, and so the -he here is cognate with OP the in my suggestion than gdhaN being from dhaN and dhaN/g-dhaN being parallel with the/g-dhe 'stand' and *he/k-he 'lie', although the morphonophonemics of the stems differs markedly. The hypothetical *he 'lie' form doesn't match Dakota he even though it has the same shape. The from -thuNwa- before -he in othuNwahe may suggest that the final nasal in thuNwaN is by nasal spreading from the initial uN through the w. (Compare tuNwaN ~ tuNwe 'see', if I remember the form correctly, which is asking a lot these days.) However, Dhegiha ttaNwaN- also shows the spreading. From jpboyle at uchicago.edu Wed Nov 9 18:29:44 2005 From: jpboyle at uchicago.edu (jpboyle at uchicago.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:29:44 -1100 Subject: endangered languages grant and CELCNA Conference Message-ID: Dear all, Thanks for the many congratulations. The ELF grant is proving to be extremely helpful in the development of pedagogical material for the revitalization efforts for Hidatsa. I also wanted to send out the call for the 2nd CELCNA conference. This was a very good conference last year and I have no doubt that it will be extremely informative and helpful this time as well. All the best, John Boyle -------------------------- CONFERENCE ON ENDANGERED LANGUAGES AND CULTURES OF NATIVE AMERICA Call for Papers Dates: The Conference on Endangered Languages and Cultures of Native America (2nd annual CELCNA conference) will be held March 31-April 2, 2006, on the University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City, Utah. Keynote speaker: Victor Golla. Call for papers: We invite papers dealing with any aspect of endangered Native American languages, in particular on documentation or revitalization. Native American participants are especially invited. Papers are 20 minutes each in length, with an additional 10 minutes for discussion. Deadline: ABSTRACTS MUST BE RECEIVED by Jan. 16, 2006. The program committee will attempt to provide notification of acceptance by Jan. 30 (by e- mail). Features to note: Session in Spanish (ponencias en espa?ol): One session will be set aside on Sunday morning, April 2, for papers in Spanish. Abstracts in Spanish (or English) can be submitted for consideration for this session. (Due to popular demand.) Posters: Abstracts are also invited for the poster session. This can include also demonstration of tools and toys for language documentation. Forum discussions: The program will include open discussion sessions dedicated to: (1) Discussion of training for documentation of endangered languages, and employment considerations for students dedicated to work with endangered languages. (2) Databasing and aids for language documentation. (3) Open forum to address matters that arise during the conference. Abstract submission guidelines: ? The abstract should be no more than 500 words in length. It should include the title of the paper and the name (or names) of the author/authors, together with the author?s/authors? affiliation. (If the paper is accepted, this abstract will be reproduced in conference materials to be distributed to other participants.) ? Abstracts should be submitted by e-mail. Submissions should be in Microsoft Word document, Rich Text Format (RTF), or Portable Document Format (PDF). If possible, avoid special fonts (or arrange with the organizers so they can be read). ? Please include with your abstract appropriate contact details, which include: contact author?s name, e-mail address for the period of time from January to April 2006, and a telephone contact number. ? Only one abstract per person may be submitted. (The only exception may be in instances where at least one of the papers has multiple authors.) ? Address: Please send abstracts to: z.pischnotte at utah.edu (by Jan. 16, 2006). Accommodations: University Guest House, the official conference hotel ? 100 yards from the meeting venue (Officers? Club) and CAIL (Center for American Indian Languages). To book accommodations, please contact the Guest House directly (mention CELCNA for the conference booking): University Guest House University of Utah 110 South Fort Douglas Blvd. Salt Lake City, Utah 84113-5036 Toll free: 1-888-416-4075 (or 801-587-1000), Fax 801-587-1001 Website www.guesthouse.utah.edu (Please make reservations early, since rooms will be held for the conference only until early March.) Sponsors: The sponsors of this conference are: (1) Center for American Indian Languages (CAIL), University of Utah, (2) Smithsonian Institution Department of Anthropology of the National Museum of Natural History, (3) Department of Linguistics, U of Utah and (4) College of Humanities, University of Utah. Registration fee: $35. Additional information: for further information contact: Zeb Pischnotte z.pischnotte at utah.edu, or for particular questions, write to Lyle Campbell at lyle.campbell at linguistics.utah.edu. If you need information not easily arranged via e-mail, please call: Tel. 801-587-0720 or 801-581-3341 during business hours (Mountain Standard Time), or Fax 801-585-7351. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:38:48 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:38:48 -0700 Subject: Procedural Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Oh, by the way, [Tony's] message didn't go off-list for some reason. I mention the following in the feeble hope that it may influence usage! Watch your mail client software carefully. Increasingly they ignore the standard conventions in interpreting e-mail headers. It may be possible to influence their behavior by working with their configuration options. Mail from a list goes out in one of two patterns, depending on how the list is configured. If the list is configured for use in sending out announcements, discouraging discussion, it will simply provide the sender's address in the from-header of mailings. Any reply should go to the sender, not the list. If the list is configured to encourage shared discussion, and the Siouan list is, the list provides the original sender's address in the from-header and the list address in the reply-to-header. A mail client is then supposed to reply by default to the reply-to-header address, and offer an option of replying to the original sender instead. Some mail clients reply always to the original sender or to both or default to the original sender with the list as an option, etc. To avoid glitches, always check the address to see what it's actually doing. In a pinch I can remove private mail from the archive with the help of the folks at Linguist, but I can't remove from the mailboxes of everybody on the list. By the way, it's never necessary to reply to both the sender and the list as some correspondents on this list tend to do. It's possible that some confusions are caused because correspondents (or their mail clients) reply to the original sender and cc the list or vice versa. The original sender will always receive any reply sent to the list. Send only to the list (to reach everyone) or to the list member (to reach them alone). Of course, it's perfectly legitimate to write to the list and cc someone who is not on the list. I'm not sure exactly where Tony got crossed up, but I don't think he need fear that his contribution embarasses him! Another procedural issue. I may be the last peron on the list not using HTML-activated email, but, please, for the sake of any such individuals, don't reply on bold face or color or alternate fonts alone to distinguish between your comments and someone else's. In a non-HTML mail client all such distinctions disappear, producing a conversation in which everyone sounds exactly alike. Most mail clients have more or less automated management of "indentation" marks as a scheme for extended quotations. In older mailers these may look like a "greater than" sign in the margin, though more modern clients like Eudora display these as a bar in the margin. Most mailers (even poor old pine) allow you to automatically reformat paragraphs under the domain of an indentation mark. If you find yourself manually inserting "greater thans," then drop me a line off list and maybe we can figure a away around it. If manual insertion indeed seems to be necessary, please don't bother. In a pinch you can always fall back on a "quotative" line or phrase before each speaker's part. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 18:52:03 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:52:03 -0700 Subject: 'town' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, > a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed > as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen > in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded > across Algonquian to be a loan. > > So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. It might helpful to investigate this somewhat further. Are all the Algonquian corespondences regular? Are there other examples of this pattern of nominalization in -weni? Also, I'm not sure that the 'totem' example is an altogether convincing case of 'dwell together in a group', so I assume there must be other cases of *o:te:- in this sense? I think we have other cases where Algonquian forms with -e(n)- match Siouan ones with nasal vowels: 'bow', for example, cf. Siouan forms seeming to imply *waNaNt(ku) or *maNaNt(ku) vs. PA (approx.!) *mentekw-a. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 19:54:37 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:54:37 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. Moreover, as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial */-o:te:-/ which can be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ 'town', Menominee /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox /meno:tani/ 'the enemy side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') There are reshapings to the nominalizing endings that I think Ives has discussed somewhere, but otherwise it's regular. (And yes, */-weni/ is a very productive nominalizing suffix.) The morphology looks quite old to me. Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem' is cognate, it's /nin-d-oode-m/, where the possessive prefix is /nin-/, the first /d/ is epenthetic, and the /m/ marks possessed themes. One could debate the semantics of PA */o:te:-/, but these forms are all related, which is the main point. Frank Siebert noticed this Algonquian/Siouan resemblance back in the 1960's. What he said was "If the correspondence is more than fortuitous, the borrowing must have occurred in the earliest Proto-Algonquian times. It would appear that Siouan was probably the donor language." However, note that he qualifies the hell out of that statement, he doesn't explain why he thinks it went that direction, and he seems not to have been aware of the other derived forms sharing the same initial. In defense of the idea of it being a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial */o:/ is rather uncommon in Proto-Algonquian. All I can think of... Dave > It might helpful to investigate this somewhat further. Are all the > Algonquian corespondences regular? Are there other examples of this > pattern of nominalization in -weni? Also, I'm not sure that the 'totem' > example is an altogether convincing case of 'dwell together in a group', > so I assume there must be other cases of *o:te:- in this sense? > > I think we have other cases where Algonquian forms with -e(n)- match > Siouan ones with nasal vowels: 'bow', for example, cf. Siouan forms > seeming to imply *waNaNt(ku) or *maNaNt(ku) vs. PA (approx.!) *mentekw-a. > >> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > >> Probably not. The Proto-Algonquian form is reconstructible as */o:te:weni/, >> a nominalization off an initial */o:te:-/. */-o:te:-/ can be reconstructed >> as meaning 'to dwell together as a group', and the same morpheme can be seen >> in Ojibwe /nindoodem/ 'my totem'. The morpheme seems too deeply embedded >> across Algonquian to be a loan. >> >> So either it's a coincidence or Siouan borrowed it from Algonquian. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 23:38:00 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:38:00 -0700 Subject: 'town' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. > Moreover, as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial > */-o:te:-/ which can be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ > 'town', Menominee /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox > /meno:tani/ 'the enemy side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') ... > In defense of the idea of it being a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial > */o:/ is rather uncommon in Proto-Algonquian. One quick observation before I go off to ponder this: the competing form for *htuNwa(N) 'group of associated people' (waxing a little abstract here) - or at least for derivatives of that - as a 'town' word in Siouan is *o-hti 'dwell in a place' (= IN-dwell). What if Algonquian borrowed *ohti and massaged it into o:te:-weni et al., whereupon Siouan borrowed it back as *ohtuNwaN, cut it down to htuNwa(N) by analogy and put it back to work in various derivations from that? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Nov 9 23:54:34 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an original Siouan form. Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and forth might be reasonable? From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 15:38:04 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:38:04 -0800 Subject: 'town' Message-ID: Well, offhand I can't give any reasons why that *couldn't* have happened, but it definitely would have had to happen at the Proto-Algonquian level, no later. Then the question arises as to whether the Proto-Algonquians were geographically anywhere near the Proto-Siouans. I tend to think not, but what do I know? If Proto-Algonquian borrowed it, it very likely didn't borrow it as */ohti/, since Proto-Algonquian had preaspirated obstruents, and this etymon for sure has a plain */t/ in Algonquian. Dave > One quick observation before I go off to ponder this: the competing form for > *htuNwa(N) 'group of associated people' (waxing a little abstract here) - or > at least for derivatives of that - as a 'town' word in Siouan is *o-hti 'dwell > in a place' (= IN-dwell). What if Algonquian borrowed *ohti and massaged it > into o:te:-weni et al., whereupon Siouan borrowed it back as *ohtuNwaN, cut it > down to htuNwa(N) by analogy and put it back to work in various derivations > from that? >> These Algonquian 'town' forms are all nominalizations of */o:te:-/. Moreover, >> as Ives has pointed out, there is a corresponding medial */-o:te:-/ which can >> be seen in constructions like Miami /minooteeni/ 'town', Menominee >> /meno:tE:w/ 'he goes partners with someone' and Fox /meno:tani/ 'the enemy >> side'. (PA */men-/ = 'grouped apart') ... In defense of the idea of it being >> a Siouan -> Algonquian loan, word-initial */o:/ is rather uncommon in >> Proto-Algonquian. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 15:46:41 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:46:41 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: I can't speak to the Siouan forms, but I can say that since the 'bow' etymon is semantically transparent in Algonquian, I doubt if it was ever borrowed back into Algonquian. Dave > Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained > the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of > the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person > inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- > (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or > *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered > animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms > maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form > like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by > truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an > original Siouan form. > > Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku > instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the > loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would > simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. > > On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. > Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of > handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. > > Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and > forth might be reasonable? > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 11 13:59:12 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? (I doubt that it's reconstructible for Proto- Iroquoian, which has a time depth of, what?, 5000 years? What is the time depth hypothesized for Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? Michael Quoting David Costa : > I can't speak to the Siouan forms, but I can say that since the 'bow' etymon > is semantically transparent in Algonquian, I doubt if it was ever borrowed > back into Algonquian. > > Dave > > > Thinking about loans back and forth, it occurred to me that I've explained > > the -ku in some Siouan 'bow' terms as a reflex of the ...(e)kw- part of > > the Algonquian form, but several Siouan languages form third person > > inalienable possessives with a suffix -ku (Dakotan) or a prefix ko- > > (Mandan). I wonder if a hypothetical Proto-Siouan *maN(aN)t-e-ku (or > > *-ko) 'his bow', if borrowed into Algonquian, wouldn't, if rendered > > animate, come out me:ntekw-a. Then I'd have to wonder if the IO forms > > maN(aN)hdu and the Wi one maNaNc^gu might not result from borrowing a form > > like that back, while cases like Omaha-Ponca maNaNde might occur, not by > > truncating the Algonquian loan, but lacking the -ku Px3 marker in an > > original Siouan form. > > > > Or maybe the IO and Wi forms reflect a variant morphology *maN(aN)t-ku > > instead of the *maN(aN)t-e-ku suggested in the Algonquian forms and the > > loans were all one way, Siouan to Algonquian? In that case Dhegiha would > > simply have a third variant *maN(aN)t-e. > > > > On the other hand, the variation between aN and iN in Siouan forms, cf. > > Da ita(-zipa) or Ks (?) miN(iN)j^e, has been explained as the result of > > handling -e- in the Algonquian forms. > > > > Which came first, the Siouan or the Algonquian? How much passing back and > > forth might be reasonable? > > > From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Nov 11 18:37:47 2005 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:37:47 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: <1131717552.4374a3b015449@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: In Proto-Northern-Iroquoian "bow" can be reconstructed as *a?e:na? (where ? is glottal stop and the e is nasalized and accented). The time depth is uncertain. Glottochronology led Lounsbury to a time depth on the order of 1,900 to 2,400 years, which seems to me greatly exaggerated. These languages are not all that different. I would suggest something under 1,000 years. Lounsbury's calculation for Proto-Iroquoian yielded 3,500 to 3,800 years, but that's probably also exaggerated. The fault is with glottochronology, not Lounsbury. Wally --On Friday, November 11, 2005 8:59 AM -0500 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for > Proto-Siouan? Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? (I doubt that it's > reconstructible for Proto- Iroquoian, which has a time depth of, what?, > 5000 years? What is the time depth hypothesized for Proto-Siouan? > Proto-Northern-Iroquoian? > > Michael From rankin at ku.edu Fri Nov 11 19:39:11 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:39:11 -0600 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: > I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 20:58:30 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:58:30 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Nov 11 20:42:15 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:42:15 -0700 Subject: Nature article on Endangered Languages Message-ID: This article features John Boyle and Hidatasa, and quotes Bob Rankin as well. Siouan has made it into the national press. I credit David Harrison (also quoted) with bringing it to my attention. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NatureEndLang.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 922030 bytes Desc: URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 21:25:48 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:25:48 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Offhand, I don't have an actual Biloxi gloss for "bow." 'aNksi' appears to be the word used for 'arrow' and 'aNksapi' for 'gun.' However, the word 'aNksapixti' is given by Dorsey to mean "bow and arrows." The -xti suffix here is the augmentative suffix meaning 'large' or 'very,' which would seem to make it "large gun" (?). Dave David Costa wrote: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 11 21:41:05 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:41:05 -0500 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: Here's the thing. The Illinois-Indiana area sees the arrival of the bow and arrow around AD 600 to 700. Successfully determining which direction it arrives from is a problem since its appearance in the Midwest seems to be **everywhere at once** in the same time period, a little less than 1500 years ago, a mere tick of the clock. Now, determining where the bow came from when it entered this area of course depends on some established time depth *elsewhere*. But where is **that**? Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that right, Dave?). Bob's note about MVS borrowing Algonquian "bow" seems to suggest a north to south diffusion of the technology. The best recent discussion on the topic are McElrath et al., pages 17-18 in Emerson et al.'s (eds) "Late Woodland Societies" (Nebraska Press), which include some good citations, especially the Michael Shott articles. In the same volume Redmond and McCullough discuss Indiana sequences. Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 21:45:08 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:45:08 -0800 Subject: Loans Back and Forth: 'bow' Message-ID: Judging purely from what you've said here, I suspect aNksapi originally was the 'bow' word. Dave Offhand, I don't have an actual Biloxi gloss for "bow." 'aNksi' appears to be the word used for 'arrow' and 'aNksapi' for 'gun.' However, the word 'aNksapixti' is given by Dorsey to mean "bow and arrows." The -xti suffix here is the augmentative suffix meaning 'large' or 'very,' which would seem to make it "large gun" (?). Dave David Costa wrote: What about Biloxi and Tutelo? >> I may have missed something here. Is "bow" reconstructible for Proto-Siouan? > No. The terms in Mississippi Valley Siouan are ALL borrowed from Algonquian > either directly or indirectly. Chiwere/Winnebago look like Menomini, Dhegiha > looks like Illinois. So the term isn't even reconstructible to MVS as > different versions were borrowed in each of the major subgroups. Tutelo also > borrows the term (translated 'gun' in lists). The Ofo term, $leka, is > unidentifiable. I don't know about Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan. > Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Nov 11 22:48:37 2005 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:48:37 -0600 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" In-Reply-To: <1131745265.43750ff192508@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I wonder if I could get a quick clarification from the Algonquianists on what all "Algonquian" and "Proto-Algonquian" covers. My understanding, picked up in bits and pieces over the years, is that Algonquian is divided into four major branches: Blackfoot; Cheyenne; Arapaho; and eastern or Great Lakes Algonquian, which includes all the rest. Blackfoot is supposed to be especially divergent. The big eastern group is supposed to be divided between a northeastern seaboard group and a more central Great Lakes/subarctic/prairie/eastern woodlands group. I've also heard that there are supposed to be a couple of small Algonquian-related languages in California. So when we talk about Proto-Algonquian, are we talking about the protolanguage of all the Algonquians, or just of the big eastern group? Or is my information/classification as given above notably incorrect? Thanks for any quick tutorials on this! Rory From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 23:50:43 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 15:50:43 -0800 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: Well, Proto-Algonquian had a reconstructible term for "bow", a couple actually, but the situation isn't totally straightforward. One is exemplified by PA */me?tekwa:pyi/, which is transparently 'wood string' or 'tree string'. This is found throughout the Central and Plains languages, but NOT Cree or Eastern Algonquian. It reconstructs quite cleanly. The semantic transparency (and odd geographic distribution) of this term makes me suspect it's a neologism, tho at a late Proto-Algonquian or immediate post-Proto-Algonquian phase. Maybe the word was created in late post-PA time when they first acquired bows. The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. If bows & arrows were introduced after PA started to break up, then this word was probably already in the language. If so, it might have meant something else originally and then shifted its meaning to 'arrow'. That is, it would have originally designated whatever kind of weapon-projectile it was that arrows superceded. Darts? Dave > Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for > "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that > right, Dave?). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 01:01:03 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:01:03 -0800 Subject: POTENTIAL SPAM: Re: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: When people talk about 'Proto-Algonquian', they mean the ancestor language of every Algonquian language, all the way from Blackfoot to Micmac, but not the California languages. The internal divisions of Algonquian are still controversial. It's now agreed on that there is a genetic grouping called 'Eastern Algonquian', which includes all the languages of the Eastern seaboard, from Nova Scotia to North Carolina. It shares a significant amount of phonological, morphological, and lexical developments. The morphological innovations are probably the most compelling. It's also agreed on that Blackfoot is by a big margin the most divergent member of the family, to the point where it's not used much in comparative or reconstructive work. Often it's hard to make sense of its innovations and to relate them to what's happening in the rest of the family. Beyond that, the internal divisions get very controversial. It's clear that Bloomfield's 'Central Algonquian' (Cree, Ojibwe, Fox, Menominee) is not a linguistic/genetic grouping, but just an areal grouping. Similarly, there is no linguistic/genetic grouping 'Plains Algonquian' -- Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Blackfoot are no closer to each other than they are to any other languages. However, there is some evidence for early borrowing back and forth between Arapaho and Cheyenne. However, some of us Algonquianists recognize a probably-genetic grouping that is variously called 'Eastern Great Lakes' or 'Core Central'. This consists of Ojibwe-Potawatomi, Shawnee, Sauk-Fox-Kickapoo, and Miami-Illinois. These languages share some intriguing phonological developments, but it hasn't been investigated too deeply. Eleven years ago Ives Goddard published a nice little piece that said that the divergences among the Algonquian languages suggest strongly that the family originated in the west, like in the northern Rockies or the Plateau, and then moved east, sort of shedding languages as it went along. The first language it split off was Blackfoot, followed by Arapaho, Cree-Montagnais, Menominee, Cheyenne, the 'Core Central' languages, and last, Eastern Algonquian. The reference is the following: Goddard, Ives. 1994. The West-to-East Cline in Algonquian Dialectology. In William Cowan, ed., Papers of the 25th Algonquian Conference 187-211. Ottawa: Carleton University. As for the California languages Wiyot and Yurok, they're very distantly related to Algonquian (and to each other). They're not called Algonquian languages -- rather, the two of them plus Algonquian proper are said to be in a larger grouping called 'Algic'. It's an ongoing controversy as to whether Wiyot and Yurok are themselves a subgroup. My opinion is that they are ('Ritwan' is what this group is called), but others don't agree. Hope this clarifies things. Dave > I wonder if I could get a quick clarification from the Algonquianists on what > all "Algonquian" and "Proto-Algonquian" covers. > My understanding, picked up in bits and pieces over the years, is that > Algonquian is divided into four major branches: Blackfoot; Cheyenne; Arapaho; > and eastern or Great Lakes Algonquian, which includes all the rest. Blackfoot > is supposed to be especially divergent. The big eastern group is supposed to > be divided between a northeastern seaboard group and a more central Great > Lakes/subarctic/prairie/eastern woodlands group. I've also heard that there > are supposed to be a couple of small Algonquian-related languages in > California. > So when we talk about Proto-Algonquian, are we talking about the protolanguage > of all the Algonquians, or just of the big eastern group? Or is my > information/classification as given above notably incorrect? > Thanks for any quick tutorials on this! > Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 01:52:46 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:52:46 -0800 Subject: PA, PNI, PI, MSV, etc. "bow" Message-ID: I'm not comfortable positing dates for the age of Proto-Algonquian, but at a gut hunch level, I don't think 2,000 years is enough. Dave > Proto-Algonquian seems to have that, since it has a reconstructible term for > "bow" and PA has been suggested to be on the order of 2000 years old. (Is that > right, Dave?). From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 12 17:24:12 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:24:12 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably atlatl darts. Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' root. This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a look-alike. Bob > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. > However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 19:17:48 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:17:48 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably > atlatl darts. > Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when > there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' > root. This is intriguingly tho probably coincidentally similar to Shawnee: Shawnee 'arrow' is /hilenalwi/, which is literally 'ordinary bullet'. Shawnee 'bullet' is /halwi/, which is from PA */a0wi/ 'arrow' (As far as I know the only reconstructible non-possessed etymon for the concept). The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of course, the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which derives from the old 'bow' word. > This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of > the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder > if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not > 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two > syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a > look-alike. Well, I think it's really a Siouanist's judgement call as to whether that kind of borrowing is likely, tho I can at least say that in Algonquian, that /-api/ part is the part that means 'string'. Dave From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 21:14:12 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:14:12 -0800 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). > Wow! So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Siouan has a good term for 'arrow' or some antecedant weapon also, presumably atlatl darts. Biloxi aNksapixti means 'real bow' (xti is the usual suffix for 'real' when there has been a replacement.). ANksi, as David points out, is the 'arrow' root. This leaves -api unexplained. Note that Ohio Valley Siouan has no trace of the MVS pluralizer -api, so that interpretation is hors de combat. I wonder if it could be from the Algonquian term Dave Costa cites just below? I'm not 100% happy with the idea since Siouan usually just takes the first one or two syllables of those interminably long Algonquian words, but at least we have a look-alike. Bob > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in Eastern). That has that same 'string' final as */me?tekwa:pyi/, but the front half is unfamiliar. That one *is* found in Eastern Algonquian (and Central), but it has several unresolved phonological glitches in the daughter languages. The fact that it doesn't reconstruct cleanly and that it has an odd geographic distribution means it's probably not a normal Proto-Algonquian etymon either, like it was formed later in the post-PA period and passed around the family after the languages were already dialectally differentiated. > However, Proto-Algonquian does have a totally reconstructible form for 'arrow' (when possessed): PA */ni:pi/ 'my arrow', */ki:pi/ 'your arrow', */wi:pi/ 'his arrow', etc. It's found throughout the family. The basic stem is PA */-i:p-/, which is not internally analyzable and looks quite old. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Nov 12 22:38:09 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:38:09 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca 'real deer'. I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an augmentative. Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 14 00:57:32 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:57:32 -0800 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. It'll be interesting to see where else this 'real' -xti suffix pops up. Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending would be here though. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > So does this -xti ending also occur in other Siouan languages in this context? So far I'd only found the D-S (Dorsey-Swanton) big or very gloss, but this 'real' gloss certainly makes more sense! Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca 'real deer'. I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an augmentative. Bob --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Nov 14 13:19:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:19:06 -0500 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: <20051114005733.8678.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting David Kaufman : > Thanks, Bob. It'll be interesting to see where else this 'real' -xti suffix > pops up. > > Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on > 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she > transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she > thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may > actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending > would be here though. > > Dave > In an (un)connected note, Uto-Aztecan Nahuatl has the borrowing "cahuayo" for "horse". However, in compounds, the stem for "deer" prevails, e.g., < mazacalli > 'it is a/the stable' from < maza- > 'deer' and < -cal- > 'house'. Michael From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 16:28:28 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:28:28 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > Biloxi 'horse', by the way, D-S showed as 'tohoxka'. I think I've settled on 'tahoxka' based on Haas's interview with the last Biloxi speaker where she transcribed the first syllable as t +(schwa). Haas commented that she thought this first syllable, ta-, may be the word for deer, 'ta,' (which may actually be 'tha' with aspiration). I have no clue what the -hoxka ending would be here though. Me either, but I think you're on the right track with /ta/ or /tha/ 'deer'. This also matches the Muskogean pattern: Choctaw issi+oba 'deer+augmentative' = 'horse' and Creek ico+lhakko 'deer+big' = 'horse'. So I'd look for hoxka to be a modifier or verb along those lines. You'll probably find other examples of it somewhere. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 16:48:48 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:48:48 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > In an (un)connected note, Uto-Aztecan Nahuatl has the borrowing "cahuayo" for "horse". However, in compounds, the stem for "deer" prevails, e.g., < mazacalli > 'it is a/the stable' from < maza- > 'deer' and < -cal- > 'house'. Neat. And another nice example of the principle that, when looking for conservative forms of a word, prefer the root in the DERIVED and COMPOUNDED forms to the independent word. Benveniste found this fairly systematically in the Indo-European cognate sets for 'family', 'clan' and 'tribe'. The independent forms of the reflexes in the different subgroups had all sorts of meanings -- 'village, neighborhood, nation, people, etc.' but in the compound or derived terms for the person who presided over each of the groups the original meanings were well preserved making semantic reconstruction (and reconstruction of the levels of PIE society) relatively easy. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:10:19 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:10:19 -0700 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > Well, I think it's really a Siouanist's judgement call as to whether that > kind of borrowing is likely, tho I can at least say that in Algonquian, that > /-api/ part is the part that means 'string'. It would make sense to refer to a bow in terms of "string (or sinew) projection" of darts as opposed to "thrower (atlatl) projection." I think the usual way archaeologists distinguish the two technologies, since throwers and bows aren't usually preserved, is from the size of the projectile heads. Thrown darts are somewhat larger and heavier than bow-launched darts. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in construction, and the elements that do get preserved - points and the tools for producing and maintaining the points and shafts - are similar, though different in size. I had been thinking that Biloxi aNksi 'arrow, bullet' vs. aNksapi(=xti) might involve -sapi 'black'. There are various difficulties with that, however, - mainly the missing -si-, and though I think this approach would bear further consideration, the comparison of -api with the Algonquian 'bowstring' final that Bob suggests is also interesting. On the other hand, a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. Identical or similar (related) terms for bullet and arrow is a pretty standard pattern. MaN is 'arrow(head)' in OP, and I think I have seen that for 'bullet' as well as maNzemaN 'metal arrow'. We might want to be a bit careful in assuming that Biloxi aNksapi 'gun' vs. aNksapi=xti 'real aNksapi' = 'bow and arrows' derives from a form actually referring to bow technology. I suspect that a form coined to refer to or describe a gun could also take =xti to make it refer to a bow. We've discussed 'bow' terms before, extensively. You can search at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html Note: (word1) and (word2) is the way to get posts with word1 and word2 as opposed to word1 word2 which gets posts with the phrase "word1 word2." From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:17:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:17:47 -0700 Subject: =xti 'Real' (RE: "bow") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Yes, it's not uncommon to see it (or its analog, -xca) used in this way. > *ihta is the original term for 'deer' and forms the basis for the deer > term in most of the languages. But in at least some (maybe all) Dakotan > dialects the reflex, tha, is also used famously in tha thaNka '(bull) > buffalo', and the ordinary white tailed deer is referred to as tha xca > 'real deer'. Or, even without attested forms involving 'buffalo', OP has tta=xti 'deer'. Along the same lines there is a Ponca subclan called ppaNkka=xti. This probably reflects the original ppaNkka clan (as opposed to the whole tribe, called by the same name). PpaNkka is one of the "standard" Dhegiha clans. > I've never heard of it being used with the dog/horse pair, > but -xti means 'real, true' pretty routinely as well as being an > augmentative. Bob I think we had an example for 'dog' from Crow recently. I will leave tracking it down as an exercise for the reader! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Nov 14 18:41:41 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:41:41 -0700 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word > for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of > course, the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which > derives from the old 'bow' word. Does the plural mtekwaapali involve the *-aapy- final? If so, does the singular mtekwa not? Also, in regard to an earlier comment: > The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA > */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found > in Eastern). I take it that 'bowstring' is the inanimate gender form of the stem *a?caapy- while 'bow' is the animate form? Am I remembering correctly that animate *me?tekw-a is (sometimes?) 'bow', while inanimate *me?tekw-i is 'stick'? It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 19:32:14 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:32:14 -0600 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" Message-ID: > a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. But we do have common Dhegiha *mite 'bow' borrowed from Algonquian being remodeled using Dhegiha *ma 'arrow' and coming out modern maNte in some of the languages. Mita is Algonquian while ma- is Siouan. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 14 19:49:55 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:49:55 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: > It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also correct. The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan speakers tended to lose patience. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Nov 14 20:00:50 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:00:50 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Um, no. Menominee has /mE?tekuap/ 'bowstring, bow'. No Algonquian language has a /tk/ cluster in this word, not even Potawatomi. >> It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a >> hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the >> Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and >> *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan >> dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was >> =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack >> synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. > Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS > either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern > forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian > dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is > that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can > correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the > second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also > correct. > The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has > the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the > word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan > speakers tended to lose patience. > Bob From boris at terracom.net Mon Nov 14 20:00:22 2005 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:00:22 -0600 Subject: "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bloomfield's Menomini Lexicon Has: mEqtekuap (-yak, -yan) An and inam 'bowstring, bow' nemE:qtekwap 'my bowstring' nemE:qtEk 'my bow' omE:qtekwan 'his bow' -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Nov 14 23:14:43 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:14:43 -0800 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: >> The words for 'bow' got dragged into this as well, in that the Shawnee word >> for 'bow' is /hilenahkwi/, which is literally 'ordinary wood'. And of course, >> the Shawnee word for 'gun' is /mtekwa/ (pl. /mtekwaapali/), which derives >> from the old 'bow' word. > Does the plural mtekwaapali involve the *-aapy- final? If so, does the > singular mtekwa not? /mtekwaapali/ is from the old 'bowstring' word (so yes it contains *-aapy-); /mtekwa/ is the old 'tree/bow' word. For some reason they merged as a single lexeme in Shawnee, with the meaning 'gun'. This is not regular, but Shawnee 'house' works the same way: sing. /wiikiwa/, plural /wiikiwaapali/. The inanimate equivalent means 'tree': Shawnee /mtekwi/, plural /mteko/. > Also, in regard to an earlier comment: >> The other main term for the concept can be reconstructed variously as PA >> */a?ca:pyi/ (usually 'bowstring') or */a?ta:pya/ 'bow' (the form found in >> Eastern). > I take it that 'bowstring' is the inanimate gender form of the stem *a?caapy- > while 'bow' is the animate form? Yes, */a?ca:pyi/ is inanimate, */a?ta:pya/ is animate. But the discrepancy in the consonants is irregular. > Am I remembering correctly that animate *me?tekw-a is (sometimes?) 'bow', > while inanimate *me?tekw-i is 'stick'? Not exactly. In Ojibwe, the word is /mitig/, and when animate it means 'tree', and when inanimate it means 'stick'. The same situation seems to prevail in Potawatomi and Menominee. (As an animate possessed noun, the Menominee word means 'bow'.) However, Fox and Miami don't seem to do anything like that. Dave From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 15 00:43:11 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:43:11 -0700 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > a compound of a Siouan noun and an Algonquian final seems a bit unusual. > > But we do have common Dhegiha *mite 'bow' borrowed from Algonquian being > remodeled using Dhegiha *ma 'arrow' and coming out modern maNte in some > of the languages. Mita is Algonquian while ma- is Siouan. Most of the probable loans from Algonquian do seem to be somewhat remodelled. However, I'm not sure we can be sure that reflexes of PA *me?tekw-a were always borrowed with miNte and then reformulated by analogy with *maN 'arrow'. I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. What we have, if I recall is: Da ita(zipa) < ita + zipa, with ita assumed to be from *mi(N)ta, reanalyzed as a first person possessive of a stem ita. OP maN(aN)'de Ks miN(iN)j^e (?) Os miN(iN)ce (?) Qu IO maN(aN)hdu < *maNaNktu, regular metathesis from *maNaNtku Wi maNaNc^gu' I think it's the Dakota and Ks-Os forms that have iN, while OP, IO, and Wi have aN. Given aN in IO and Wi, perhaps aN is OP is original. And how about the aN ~ iN alternations in 'grizzly' and, I think, some other terms? Of course, it's likely that the term was borrowed into PDh, perhaps already a dialect continuum at the time time, though I doubt Os and Ks were distinct. But it seems difficult to be sure that the form was borrowed as *miNiNte and reformulated. It might as easily have been borrowed as *maNaNte and reformulated. Or maybe a foreign sounding *mNte was borrowed and reformulated variously. The Dakota form could easily have been borrowed separately. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 01:21:07 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:21:07 -0800 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" Message-ID: Proto-Algonquian */me?tekwa/ (or some early daughter-language form) *could* have meant 'bow', but the evidence is much better that it would have meant 'tree'. > I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the > Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which > I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Nov 15 02:32:51 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:32:51 -0700 Subject: Biloxi aNksi "bow" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, David Costa wrote: > > JEK: > > I realize that David Costa recommend a longer etymon for bow, but the > > Siouan forms don't seem to presuppose anything more than *me?tekwa, which > > I think I got from Aubin's PA Dictionary. > > Proto-Algonquian */me?tekwa/ (or some early daughter-language form) *could* > have meant 'bow', but the evidence is much better that it would have meant > 'tree'. I'm falling back on Shawnee (Costa): > /mtekwaapali/ is from the old 'bowstring' word (so yes it contains > *-aapy-); /mtekwa/ is the old 'tree/bow' word <====. For some reason > they merged as a single lexeme in Shawnee, with the meaning 'gun'. Menominee (Knutson): > Bloomfield's Menomini Lexicon Has: > mEqtekuap (-yak, -yan) An and inam 'bowstring, bow' > nemE:qtekwap 'my bowstring' > nemE:qtEk 'my bow' <===== > omE:qtekwan 'his bow' Maybe Cheyenne ma'ts^e^s^ke fits here, too? (I seem to recall something shorter in one source or another - this is from an on-line list. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps shorter forms based on animates of 'wood' had some separate existence in the sense 'bow', perhaps for possessed forms? Incidentally, again quoting David: > This is not regular, but Shawnee 'house' works the same way: sing. > /wiikiwa/, plural /wiikiwaapali/. I'm guessing that the plural of 'house' isn't wikiup+string, and so there must be some other basis for the -aapili in this plural? (Sorry - my ignorance of Algonquian knows few bounds!) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 15 15:17:37 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:17:37 -0600 Subject: "bow" Message-ID: Oops, sorry 'bout that. I used to talk about Menomini a lot with Ken Miner, but can't blame him for the form. Is the U of the syllable -ku- a syllabic vowel or just a grapheme for W? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Mon 11/14/2005 2:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "bow" Um, no. Menominee has /mE?tekuap/ 'bowstring, bow'. No Algonquian language has a /tk/ cluster in this word, not even Potawatomi. >> It is, of course, the me?tekw- stem that I was suggesting might be from a >> hypothetical PS *maNaNt(e)=ko 'his bow', thus explaining the >> Proto-Mississippi Valley Siouan alternation of forms like *maNaNte and >> *maNaNt(-)ku- for 'bow'. Alternatively, perhaps some of the MV Siouan >> dialects simply deleted Algonquian -ku on the false assumption that it was >> =ko. However, some of the dialects where this happens (Dhegiha) lack >> synchronic traces of =ko 'his/hers'. Dakotan does have it. > Bows date from A.D. 400-600 in the archaeological record so aren't PS or PMVS > either. I assume Ioway-Otoe-Missouri-Winnebago *maNtku in its various modern > forms (mahdu, maNcgu, etc.) are from Menomini or some similar Algonquian > dialect. I am writing without benefit of a dictionary, but my recollection is > that Menomini has something like matkuap or metkuap (David or Michael can > correct my vowels here). With the usual Siouan "chop off everything past the > second syllable" rule applied, it comes out right and the geography is also > correct. > The difference between 'bow' in Menomini and in Illinois is that Menomini has > the -tk- cluster that preserves the -ku- as part of the second syllable of the > word. In Illinois the -ko is the third syllable which is where Siouan > speakers tended to lose patience. > Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 15 19:15:00 2005 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:15:00 EST Subject: POTENTIAL SPAM: Crow speakers Message-ID: The following are excerpts from an article that appeared in the Big Horn County News, Hardin, Montana, last week. I thought it might be of interest to readers of the Siouan list. "Riley Singer and Hans Hill were found to be the only fluent Crow speakers among the 233 Crow students at Hardin Middle School. For them, it is a language that is spoken in the home, a first language. "Last Friday, in front of the entire student body, the two sixth grade boys addressed their peers in their native language. In an assembly meshing Red Ribbon Week and the culmination of Native American Week, both boys took to the stage to introduce themselves in their native Crow language. They gave their Apsa'alooke names, their clan affiliations and what their interests are, for all of the student body to hear. "Singer, because of his fluency and age, was part of the history project with the Western Heritage Center in Billings, and was invited to speak there in his native tongue.... "At the forefront of awareness during the week, was the noticeable decline of Crow youth who are fluent in their tribal language. Many, if not most of the Crow students can understand Crow or have the gist, but the majority of the response is given back in English." There are a few other young speakers on the reservation, but not many. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poulsente at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 21:39:31 2005 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:39:31 -0700 Subject: previous post Message-ID: Hhello earlier I had posted to the Siouanlist, the names of several eastern souian Chiefs names from 1713 treaty signing, has nayone one replied to them? From rankin at ku.edu Mon Nov 28 22:30:36 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:30:36 -0600 Subject: FW: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Message-ID: Some info for those of you using the Gentium font. As far as I know it is about the only one that has all the characters necessary to reproduce virtually ANY of the Siouan character sets -- old or new. Bob ________________________________ From: Gentium-Announce on behalf of Gentium-Announce List Sent: Mon 11/28/2005 7:58 AM To: Gentium-Announce Subject: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Gentium-Announce List Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License - - - - - - - - Dear friends of Gentium, We're thrilled to announce that we have re-released Gentium under a free/open-source license - the SIL Open Font License (OFL). This will give much greater freedom to everyone using the fonts, and allow for easier inclusion in free, open-source and commercial software packages. The only changes we've made in addition to the licensing change were a couple of bug fixes releated to PostScript glyph names and to the reported italic angle. All of this can be found at http://scripts.sil.org/gentium We know that many of you have been waiting for eons for Bold and Bold Italic, more ancient Greek letters (like the digamma), etc. We have been working on these (very sporadically) over the last couple of years, but they're not ready yet. We hope to have a greatly improved set of Regular and Italic out mid next year, and then work on completing the additional weights. In the meantime, if the lack of one letter is hindering you, the OFL now gives you the freedom to change the fonts, and even distribute modified versions - with some conditions. We also warmly welcome your submissions of work to be included in the main Gentium project. See the Status page on the web site for details. Thanks for your continued interest in Gentium. Victor Gaultney Gentium /at/ sil.org ############################################################# This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: Send administrative queries to gentium at sil.org From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 28 22:48:22 2005 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:48:22 -0800 Subject: FW: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. Gentium has definitely come in handy for the Biloxi dictionary! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Some info for those of you using the Gentium font. As far as I know it is about the only one that has all the characters necessary to reproduce virtually ANY of the Siouan character sets -- old or new. Bob ________________________________ From: Gentium-Announce on behalf of Gentium-Announce List Sent: Mon 11/28/2005 7:58 AM To: Gentium-Announce Subject: [Gentium] Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License Gentium-Announce List Update #3 - Current version re-released under the SIL Open Font License - - - - - - - - Dear friends of Gentium, We're thrilled to announce that we have re-released Gentium under a free/open-source license - the SIL Open Font License (OFL). This will give much greater freedom to everyone using the fonts, and allow for easier inclusion in free, open-source and commercial software packages. The only changes we've made in addition to the licensing change were a couple of bug fixes releated to PostScript glyph names and to the reported italic angle. All of this can be found at http://scripts.sil.org/gentium We know that many of you have been waiting for eons for Bold and Bold Italic, more ancient Greek letters (like the digamma), etc. We have been working on these (very sporadically) over the last couple of years, but they're not ready yet. We hope to have a greatly improved set of Regular and Italic out mid next year, and then work on completing the additional weights. In the meantime, if the lack of one letter is hindering you, the OFL now gives you the freedom to change the fonts, and even distribute modified versions - with some conditions. We also warmly welcome your submissions of work to be included in the main Gentium project. See the Status page on the web site for details. Thanks for your continued interest in Gentium. Victor Gaultney Gentium /at/ sil.org ############################################################# This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, E-mail to: Send administrative queries to gentium at sil.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: