From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 1 19:45:53 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:45:53 -0600 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: Being laid up with tendonitis I've had an opportunity to read some things I wouldn't ordinarily get to, and noticed a few points of interest in Paul Proulx's article on Algonquian reduplication in IJAL 71.2. 1) Proto-Algonquian distinguishes two types of sandhi - [proto-Algonquian] inter-word insertion of *h. - within-word insertion of *y. The first of these appears to be a discovery (or recent reinvestigation?) of Dahlstrom (1997), exemplified in reduplication in Fox in net- es^a= h- es^awi 1s.subj reduplicator sandhi do.thus 'I do thus' This pair reminds me of the Siouan tendency to - CV1-V2CV => C-V2CV on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but with morphologized expamples of - insertion of *r intervocalically in contexts such as combinations of locatives, the morphology of the causative, and so on. There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. Carter has used this to explain some glottal stops in Mandan and has suggested that it might also ultimately account for ejectives generally, e.g., via a mechanism like CV1-?-V2 => C?-V2. For example (mine of the moment, not necessarily Carter's) te-e die + DECL might lead to t?e. Similarly, it has been suggested somewhere - by Carter and/or Shaw, I think - that declarative =? in some Dakotan dialects might have this sort of source. 2) In connection with the former, Proulx notes that "In Shawnee, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe, words which otherwise would be vowel-initial are written with initial *h*. However, many linguists prefer not to write an initial aspiration as long as it remains automatic, regarding it as sufficiently signalled by the space left between words ... For example, Bloomfield (1962:3) states that in Menominee "initial vowels often have an on-glide resembling *h*" which he does not write. Similarly, in my description of Micmac inflection I wrote "there is nondistinctive aspiration between (two) vowels, and before vowels in utterance initial position." I too did not write it initially, though I did word-internally (Proulx 1978:5). "These facts suggest the hypothesis that Proto-Algonquian may have had predictable aspiration of a vowel-initial word. In some daughter languages aspiration renains predictable (e.g., Menominee). In some it may have been lost (e.g., Fox), and in some it changed to a glottal stop (e.g., Potawatomi). Reduplication with external sandhi inserts this word-initial *h* at the [proto-Algonquian] word boundary between a reduplicator prefix and a vowel-initial stem." A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? While h-linkage is not attested in Siouan that I am aware of, I thought that the presence of automatic initial aspiration in Menominee was interesting in light of the anomalous initial aspiration of verbs (locatives and first persons) in Winnebago. This aspiration, and the presence of initial h with Ioway-Otoe first persons, has always puzzled me, in the sense that I couldn't entirely predict when it occurred. For example, Wi ha-, IO ha-, OP a-, Da wa- for first person agent is not a regular correspondence, though the initial do hold across essentially all first person pronominals, e.g., Wi hiN-, IO hiN-, OP aN- (dative iN-), Da maN- (reflexive possessive miN-) for the patient forms. Winnebago has nouns without h-, e.g., aa 'arm', aap 'leaf', ii 'mouth', ii 'lid', and demonstratives ee 'the aforesaid'. Also adverbs, e.g., aaki' 'on or at both ends or sides', and verbs, aaghi' 'be ready', aaz^(=)re 'be open'. The verbs considered to be *?-initial lack h, e.g., iNiN 'wear over the shoulders' and uNuN 'do; make; wear'. In fact, mainly it's the three locatives and the first persons that get the aspirate. The only aspirated forms in IO are the first persons. Given the general lack of *w => h shifts, and the absence of h- with Dhegiha first persons, my suspicion would be that h- with first presons in Winnebago was aspiration of (short?) vowel initial words, but that makes the IO aspiration of first persons only somewhat anomalous. The only other h'aspiration anomaly in Siouan that I know of is the behavior of 'day', e.g., Da aNp-e-tu, OP aNbe, Os haNpe, Wi haNaNp a correspondence also seen with the indefinite pronominal (Da examples moot), OP a-naN 'how many, some number', Os ha-naN, Wi hac^aN' 'where?'. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 1 21:03:02 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This emerged in a class I taught with Ken Miner in about 1980, but I can't recall the detail. And, of course, PSi *? > [h] in Biloxi. I've had tendonitis several times mostly due to computer "keyboarding". In most cases a hydrocortisone injection at the site clears it up quickly. Good luck. Bob > Being laid up with tendonitis I've had an opportunity to read some things I wouldn't ordinarily get to, and noticed a few points of interest in Paul Proulx's article on Algonquian reduplication in IJAL 71.2. 1) Proto-Algonquian distinguishes two types of sandhi - [proto-Algonquian] inter-word insertion of *h. - within-word insertion of *y. The first of these appears to be a discovery (or recent reinvestigation?) of Dahlstrom (1997), exemplified in reduplication in Fox in net- es^a= h- es^awi 1s.subj reduplicator sandhi do.thus 'I do thus' This pair reminds me of the Siouan tendency to - CV1-V2CV => C-V2CV on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but with morphologized expamples of - insertion of *r intervocalically in contexts such as combinations of locatives, the morphology of the causative, and so on. There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. Carter has used this to explain some glottal stops in Mandan and has suggested that it might also ultimately account for ejectives generally, e.g., via a mechanism like CV1-?-V2 => C?-V2. For example (mine of the moment, not necessarily Carter's) te-e die + DECL might lead to t?e. Similarly, it has been suggested somewhere - by Carter and/or Shaw, I think - that declarative =? in some Dakotan dialects might have this sort of source. 2) In connection with the former, Proulx notes that "In Shawnee, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe, words which otherwise would be vowel-initial are written with initial *h*. However, many linguists prefer not to write an initial aspiration as long as it remains automatic, regarding it as sufficiently signalled by the space left between words ... For example, Bloomfield (1962:3) states that in Menominee "initial vowels often have an on-glide resembling *h*" which he does not write. Similarly, in my description of Micmac inflection I wrote "there is nondistinctive aspiration between (two) vowels, and before vowels in utterance initial position." I too did not write it initially, though I did word-internally (Proulx 1978:5). "These facts suggest the hypothesis that Proto-Algonquian may have had predictable aspiration of a vowel-initial word. In some daughter languages aspiration renains predictable (e.g., Menominee). In some it may have been lost (e.g., Fox), and in some it changed to a glottal stop (e.g., Potawatomi). Reduplication with external sandhi inserts this word-initial *h* at the [proto-Algonquian] word boundary between a reduplicator prefix and a vowel-initial stem." A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? While h-linkage is not attested in Siouan that I am aware of, I thought that the presence of automatic initial aspiration in Menominee was interesting in light of the anomalous initial aspiration of verbs (locatives and first persons) in Winnebago. This aspiration, and the presence of initial h with Ioway-Otoe first persons, has always puzzled me, in the sense that I couldn't entirely predict when it occurred. For example, Wi ha-, IO ha-, OP a-, Da wa- for first person agent is not a regular correspondence, though the initial do hold across essentially all first person pronominals, e.g., Wi hiN-, IO hiN-, OP aN- (dative iN-), Da maN- (reflexive possessive miN-) for the patient forms. Winnebago has nouns without h-, e.g., aa 'arm', aap 'leaf', ii 'mouth', ii 'lid', and demonstratives ee 'the aforesaid'. Also adverbs, e.g., aaki' 'on or at both ends or sides', and verbs, aaghi' 'be ready', aaz^(=)re 'be open'. The verbs considered to be *?-initial lack h, e.g., iNiN 'wear over the shoulders' and uNuN 'do; make; wear'. In fact, mainly it's the three locatives and the first persons that get the aspirate. The only aspirated forms in IO are the first persons. Given the general lack of *w => h shifts, and the absence of h- with Dhegiha first persons, my suspicion would be that h- with first presons in Winnebago was aspiration of (short?) vowel initial words, but that makes the IO aspiration of first persons only somewhat anomalous. The only other h'aspiration anomaly in Siouan that I know of is the behavior of 'day', e.g., Da aNp-e-tu, OP aNbe, Os haNpe, Wi haNaNp a correspondence also seen with the indefinite pronominal (Da examples moot), OP a-naN 'how many, some number', Os ha-naN, Wi hac^aN' 'where?'. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 1 21:13:20 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:13:20 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary > relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This Cf. Ojibway ma?i:ngan & Plains Cree mahi:hkan 'wolf'. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 1 22:08:54 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:08:54 -0700 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: Right. Proto-Algonquian prevocalic */h/ becomes /?/ in Potawatomi and most Ojibwe dialects. But I think some Northern Ojibwe dialects still keep the [h] pronunciation. Also, [?] and [h] are in complementary distribution in Shawnee -- it appears as [?] before consonants and [h] elsewhere. Dave > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary >> relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This > Cf. Ojibway ma?i:ngan & Plains Cree mahi:hkan 'wolf'. > Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 1 22:36:51 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:36:51 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> > on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but >> There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. > > > A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial > *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though > English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. > Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? It's true, John, that native /h/ generally blew in one French ear and out the other, but the sound was recorded occasionally by the historic French. You see it from time to time in the early Miami-Illinois dictionaries. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 1 23:36:27 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:36:27 -0600 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: <1125614211.43178283857ce@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? > > It's true, John, that native /h/ generally blew in one French ear and > out the other, but the sound was recorded occasionally by the historic > French. You see it from time to time in the early Miami-Illinois > dictionaries. Yes, I wondered as I wrote that if I might not be doing some of the French authorities an injustice. On the whole I've been fairly impressed by what I've seen of early French work on American languages. I wondered about French sources for Shawnee only because English sources had beenmentioned so pointedly. David Costa has explained to me off-line that some very accurate native Shawnee sources neglect initial h on the apparent grounds that it is predictable / optional. He agrees that no outside sources mention it before the mid 19th Century. I wonder if English sources might be astute enough to notice this, too, specifically because some English dialects also treat h in this way. Of course, English sources can seldom resist adding initial h in transcribing Cockney usage, so this seems a weak suggestion. I don't believe there are any sources for Wi or IO that omit h- where it occurs, perhaps because it is not at all clear that it is predictable. By which I mean, perhaps only a Siouan comparativist could think it was predictable. Anyway, it's interesting to learn that epentehtic intiial h is so widely distributed in the Algonquian languages, especially ones with some sort of historical connection to the Old Northwest, given that this area seems to be a nexus of the similar phenomena in Siouan. (I guess Biloxi would be a bit far afield from the Old Northwest, and Shawnee is, mostly, too.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 2 03:05:48 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:05:48 -0600 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration Message-ID: I never know whether to call it haspiration or ahpiration. I looked in the Say Winnebago vocabulary from the Long Expedition. As far as date and place: "The two following Vocabularies were taken down by Major Long during his tour on the upper Mississippi in the year 1817." I may not have the superscript numbers Say uses correctly decyphered. The second-generation xerox I'm using has its limitations. I've marked with asterisk (*) cases where Long differs from Miner. To sum up the results, Long seems to have been somewhat hit or miss in hearing h. He never adds one that isn't there today, but often omits one that is. It doesn't seem to matter whether h is epenthetic or organic as far as when he misses it. Most of the examples are organic h, however. It occurs to me to wonder if h was regularly elided in any earlier American dialects. In other words, perhaps we are not entirely correct in assuming that all early American English speakers could hear an h well. Under the circumstances it seems more likely that Long had trouble hearing h than that the Winnebago speakers he questioned were omitting it. Long Miner Gloss (both, or Long = Miner) a2r-da2h a'a(=ra) 'arm' = 'the arm' *o1ntsh huN'uNc^ 'bear' *o1ngk-pe1 huN'uNk + piNiN 'chief' = 'chief' + 'good' ? *a4h-no2 t?e'e=naNaN 'dead' = 'he died + DECL' ) (In the preceding I assume Long failed to perceive the t in t?ee.) e1ye1-sho2u3-u2ck a'is^ak 'elbow' (The preceding example suggests Say's use of superscripts is not entirely in accord with Long's actual scheme. I suspect they were added as Say thought they should be, and not originally present.) a1-pe1-no2 (ee) piNiN(=naNaN) 'good' = 'it was good + DECL' *o2-a2-ki2sh-ke1 huuwa'gisge' 'garter' *i2sh-o3k hiiz^u'k 'gun' *i2sh-o2-co1-ma3h hiiz^u'gmaNaN 'lead' = 'bullet' *o2-ra2h hu'u=ra 'leg' ='the leg' ha1-da2h he'e=ra 'louse' = 'the louse' ha3h-he2h-we1 haNaNhewi 'moon' e1 i'i 'mouth' a2h-chi2n-shu1n ??? 'old' (Not a clue. The Dakota form is 'old man'.) ?o2k-hu2n-ne1 (hiiz^u'k)uxiNniN' 'gunpowder' he1-no2-ko2-ta2h hinuN'k=ra 'squaw' = 'the woman' he1 hi'i 'teeth' ha3n-na3jh-pe1 hanaN'aNc^ + piNiN 'Universe' = 'all + good' (?) *i2-si1c-we1-ke1-ne1-cha3h heezi'k wikiNniNja 'wax = 'bee' + 'wax' ('beeswax' ?) John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 03:22:36 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:22:36 -0500 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It occurs to me to wonder if h was regularly elided in any earlier > American dialects. In other words, perhaps we are not entirely correct in > assuming that all early American English speakers could hear an h well. G. P. Krapp [unfortunate man] says in _The English Language in America_ (1925) 2:206 "The records do not indicate that at any time or in any region was the the loss of h [h] in words with this sound in the initial position, or the addition of h at the beginning of words with initial vowels..current in American use." The frequently phonetic spelling of "naive" documents would certainly have represented such pronunciations had they existed. Alan From goodtracks at gbronline.com Fri Sep 2 15:24:58 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:24:58 -0500 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:05 PM Subject: Winnebago Aspiration > To sum up the results, Long seems to have been somewhat hit or miss in > hearing h. He never adds one that isn't there today, but often omits one > that is. It doesn't seem to matter whether h is epenthetic or organic as > far as when he misses it. Most of the examples are organic h, however. > John: It may be coincidence or an earlier pronunciation, but Dorsey consistantly has no "h" for the following: hina'ge (woman) > DOR ina'ge hina's^age (old woman) > ina'sh^age DOR ha'xoje (ashes) > DOR a'xoje I believe I've noted other instances, but I'd have to scour his original IOM texts, and I haven't the time to do that. These words came immediately to me. Jimm From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 2 20:14:09 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:14:09 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: aloha all, A term came up in my Omaha III class today that I thought I'd share with y'all. We were talking about a stuffed skeleton toy "ni'kashiNga wahi'" (bone person) and contrasting it with "wanoN'xe" (ghost or spirit). An Omaha student who recently transfered into UNL from the Omaha reservation offered the term "kuku'i" as ghost. He reported the term used by his Omaha grandmother residing in Sioux City, Iowa. One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had not heard it used in the Omaha community. Any thoughts? wibthahoN, wagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 402-472-3455 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 20:22:17 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:22:17 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <003001c5affa$e08a9330$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > An Omaha > student who recently transfered into UNL from the Omaha reservation > offered the term "kuku'i" as ghost. He reported the term used by his > Omaha grandmother residing in Sioux City, Iowa. > > One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her > Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had > not heard it used in the Omaha community. > > Any thoughts? Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for mother-in-law is suegra. Alan From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Sep 2 20:38:51 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:38:51 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: >> One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her >> Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had >> not heard it used in the Omaha community. > > Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for > mother-in-law is suegra. According to several uncredited Internet sources: "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the mountains to carry bad children away." From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 20:48:29 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:48:29 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <002101c5affe$54383190$3e01a8c0@Language> Message-ID: >> Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for >> mother-in-law is suegra. > > > According to several uncredited Internet sources: > > "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, > glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the > mountains to carry bad children away." Boy, I botched that: think before hitting "Send"! (I don't want the spirit of my departed mother-in-law to think I'd confused her with a bogeyman.) And thanks for coming up with "Cucuy", Justin. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Sep 2 21:06:51 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:06:51 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the mountains to carry bad children away." Actually, it sounds like a borrowing from some South American native language into Spanish. A lot of these terms were brought to North America by the Spanish conquistadores. They learned them with Cortez in Mexico or with Pizarro in Peru and then joined other expeditions north of the border that transferred the terms to North American Indian languages. For example the Aztec word for 'turkey' turns up in Muskogee Creek referring to one or another kind of fowl. The Quechua term for 'basket' crops up among terms for Indian baskets in Juan Pardo's account of his trek through the Southeast. This may well be another such term. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 21:14:22 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:14:22 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED has: Cucuy(o) (also cucuio, cocuyo, cucullo, cucujo). [Sp. cucuyo, adaptation of a Haitian or other native American name.] The West Indian firefly (Pyrophorus noctilucus), an elaterid beetle which emits brilliant phosphorescent light from spots on the body. 1591 SYLVESTER Du Bartas I. v. 794 New-Spain's Cucuio, in his forehead brings Two burning Lamps, two underneath his wings. 1647 W. BROWNE Polexander I. 97 These little Cucuyes..mingle their living lights with the obscuritie of this Dungeon. 1692 COLES, Cucuye, a bird in Hispaniola, with eyes under the wings, shining in the night. 1706 PHILLIPS (ed. Kersey), Cucuyos, a king of Fly in America, which gives such a Lustre in the Night that one may..write and read by the Light of it. [and later] From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 2 21:50:02 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:50:02 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:14 PM Subject: Re: kuku'i ghost > The OED has: > > Cucuy(o) (also cucuio, cocuyo, cucullo, cucujo). [Sp. cucuyo, adaptation > of a Haitian or other native American name.] > > The West Indian firefly (Pyrophorus noctilucus), an elaterid beetle > which emits brilliant phosphorescent light from spots on the body. > > 1591 SYLVESTER Du Bartas I. v. 794 New-Spain's Cucuio, in his forehead > brings Two burning Lamps, two underneath his wings. 1647 W. BROWNE > Polexander I. 97 These little Cucuyes..mingle their living lights with > the obscuritie of this Dungeon. 1692 COLES, Cucuye, a bird in > Hispaniola, with eyes under the wings, shining in the night. 1706 > PHILLIPS (ed. Kersey), Cucuyos, a king of Fly in America, which gives > such a Lustre in the Night that one may..write and read by the Light of > it. [and later] > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 21:54:47 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <000901c5b008$45a1dd70$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? Yup--pretty neat! From rwd0002 at unt.edu Sat Sep 3 16:44:28 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <4318CA27.2080106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > In Ruben Cobos, A dictionary of New Mexico and Southern Colorado Spanish (2003), I find: cucuy m. [fr. Mex. Sp. coco, bogeyman, and !Uy!, an expression denoting fright] bogeyman. The etymology seems fanciful to me. Willem From are2 at buffalo.edu Sun Sep 4 10:01:03 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 06:01:03 -0400 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <4318CA27.2080106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I've never seen the term used here (but there's lots I haven't heard). Also, I think we used wahi niashiNga (rather than niashiNga wahi) for skeleton. -Ardis Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to > suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Sep 4 14:57:57 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:57:57 +0100 Subject: new Lakhota book Message-ID: Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani. The URL is: http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rwd0002 at unt.edu Sun Sep 4 18:53:51 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:53:51 -0500 Subject: new Lakhota book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Anthony Grant : > Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to > Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, > Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 > languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani. > > The URL is: http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html > > Anthony Thanks for pointing that out. That German phrasebook series is quite impressive. It has always been my impression that Germans expect more from phrasebooks than English-speakers do. No funny pronunciation aids of the "voo- lay voo coo-shay ah-vehk mwah" type: learn the spelling or IPA!; no promises of no grammar: here is the grammar you need. I have not seen the Lakota and Nahuatl ones, but have read the Guarani and Quechua ones, and they are quite "gut"! From rankin at ku.edu Sun Sep 4 20:44:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:44:25 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: The place to go for the best etymologizing would be the "Diccionario Critico Etimologico" of Spanish. If I think of it, I'll try to check next time I'm in the biblioteca. I guess I should check and see if they've put it on-line. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent: Sat 9/3/2005 11:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: kuku'i ghost Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > In Ruben Cobos, A dictionary of New Mexico and Southern Colorado Spanish (2003), I find: cucuy m. [fr. Mex. Sp. coco, bogeyman, and !Uy!, an expression denoting fright] bogeyman. The etymology seems fanciful to me. Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Sep 5 09:19:33 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:19:33 +0200 Subject: new Lakota book Message-ID: > Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani.<< These seem to be kind of - somewhat more elaborated - 'Sprachführer' (language guides) to provide some basics on many languages (obviously meant to go together with travel guides). I think they're quite helpful to getting a quick overview on pronunciation, syntax and basic conversational phrases. The 'Kauderwelsch' (gibberish) series are giving you a feel for the syntax structures. There are also virtual editions (PDF) with sound files available. Most valuable! (A sample for Thai is downloadable for free.) The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for 'lakota'. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Sep 5 11:29:14 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:29:14 +0100 Subject: Rain in the faces daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists A friend of mine over here who is doing ongoing research on the Buffalo Bill Wild West show visits to England asks the following:. ³Basically what it's about is that there was a music hall act in the early 20th century, featuring one 'Montana Bill' who claimed that he had been with the Wild West show. He left a handwritten manuscript, with all manner of extraordianry statments in it. He claimed to have been closely associated with Buffalo Bill. He also said that his mother was an Oglala Lakota and daughter of Rain in the Face, named Ne-Oska-Letta. If you don't understand this, I'm not surprised as I'm pretty sure the whole thing is a lie anyway. In Mexican Joe's show, there was a lady whose (stage) name was Neosreleata. She was billed as an Apache, but I have good reason to suppose that she was really a Winnebago. I also suspect that this is where Montana Bill got the name from. If you are unable to identify either version of the name as Lakota, I think that tells its own story, and confirms my suspicions. Thanks Bruce! Yours, Tom² Are either of the two names Ne-Oska-Letta or Neosreleata familiar to anyone ? Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Sep 5 11:35:25 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:35:25 +0100 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: <430F4E82.6090508@umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Cantemaza I immediately thought of the pie connection too, but it seemed inappropriate. I wondered whether it could refer to Œtobacco ties¹, though I suppose pemni is not the first root to spring to mind in that connection. Philamayaye Yours Bruce On 26/8/05 6:16 pm, "Cantemaza" wrote: > helpdesk wrote: >> Pemni Wichak'upi Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak¹upi may mean. >> I have it from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a >> ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy >> Communion, but I don¹t think so because that is referred to in the same >> context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were Œtobacco >> ties². Hope someone can help >> >> Bruce > I have not heard this myself but we (Bdewakantunwan Dakota hemaca do) do have > a word for pie, wo'pemni s'paN. I haven't been to a ceremony yet where pie is > used so I'm pretty sure that is not it he-he. Wo'pemni s'paN means the thing > that's cooked round or in a circle (taspaN wo'pemni s'paN - apple pie). > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwd0002 at unt.edu Mon Sep 5 16:51:19 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: new Lakota book In-Reply-To: <431C0DA5.5040507@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to > be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for > 'lakota'. > > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Sep 5 17:33:27 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:33:27 +0200 Subject: new Lakota book Message-ID: > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for 'lakota'.<<<< > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? << Willem, you're absolutely correct :) it's listed under 'Sioux Lakota' (but I did find it anyway). Do you possess it already? Maybe, I'll order it, be it only to learn how the booklet is made up for its limited purpose. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 05:20:18 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:20:18 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: Howdy, I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following phrase. Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Jonathan Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 08:35:47 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:35:47 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? << Yes it is! But I'd guess it should be rather: "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] which I'd - quite hesitantly - translate as: "My younger brother, good luck throughout (the) earth (male speech)!" oglu - luck, fortune; to befall one (so MAYBE: 'oglu waste' is meant as 'good luck' - which I'd judge as an Anglicism) sitomni - all over, throughout Please don't ask wether or not this is good Lakota. (or my translation is erroneous :-( ). Toksa ake Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Sep 6 14:00:19 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:00:19 +0100 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <20050906052018.37338.qmail@web54511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi there It looks as though it is intended to mean ³Little Brother go with good fortune around the world or all over the world² . However I don¹t know whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language like English. MisuN is the vocative use ³Oh Little Brother². Oglu does mean Œfortune, luck¹, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or Makha sitomniyaN means Œall over the world¹. The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means Œhe goes¹ one would expect yelo. If it means ³go!². One would expect yayo or iyayo. Bruce On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: > Howdy, > > I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following > phrase. > > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo > > It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka > or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps > because of mis-spelled words? > > Any help or advice would be appreciated. > Jonathan > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 6 15:50:25 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:50:25 -0600 Subject: new Lakota book In-Reply-To: <431C8167.6000205@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I have the book (Dr. Netzel sent me a copy after we met briefly in Heidelberg a few months ago). It has lots of interesting information in it; I haven't looked at it very carefully yet, however. It's main problem is that the orthography is totally idiosyncratic, a peculiar mixture of Buechel and White Hat -- the eternal problem of aspiration/lack of aspiration, of course. A quick glance shows that aspirated stops are usually marked with a hacek, unaspirated ones with a dot, and predictable ones (in clusters or in the plural pi) are unmarked, but I haven't really tried to figure it out. Dr. Netzel said she was under severe pressure from the publisher to do it this way, and no linguist will have any trouble figuring it out -- but of course it's really regrettable. Jan Ullrich tried to get her to change before the book was printed, and she mentions that under the name of the Lakota Language Consortium standardization attempts -- but continues to ignore it. Dr. Netzel did a lot of her own field work for this, so there is information that we haven't seen elsewhere. And, as the list contributors have said already, the series is quite reputable and has a lot more than the average tourist phrase book. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 5 Sep 2005, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. T�ting" wrote: > > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't > to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search > for 'lakota'.<<<< > > > > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under > Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? << > > > Willem, you're absolutely correct :) it's listed under 'Sioux Lakota' > (but I did find it anyway). Do you possess it already? Maybe, I'll order > it, be it only to learn how the booklet is made up for its limited purpose. > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 15:52:45 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:52:45 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > (...) The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means ‘he goes’ one would expect yelo. If it means “go!”. One would expect yayo or iyayo. << Bruce, I suspect that *yalo is influenced by American orthography (and should be _yelo_ instead). I remember watching the movie "Dances with Wolves" (Sunkmanitu tanka ob waci) quite some times over the years: Initially, I was pretty impressed by the Lakota sequences there... and later wasn't any longer e.g. for the simple reason that most of the actors weren't even able to pronounce this tiny Lakota word correctly: it came repeatedly as [yay'low] i.e. with a heavy American accent and the stress on its 1st syllable :)) Do you think that a verb _yA_ is needed in this sentence? BTW, if there really was a Lakota title (as given above) its translation to English seems very knowledgeable, i.e. with reference to the plural of wolf. (This is different with the German title "Der mit dem Wolf tanzt".) Toksa ake Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 16:46:45 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce, This helps a great deal. Thanks for taking the time with it. Just one question though. Is there much of a difference between the use of oglu and the use of wa'pika for the term "fortune"? Thanks, Jonathan Bruce Ingham wrote: Hi there It looks as though it is intended to mean “Little Brother go with good fortune around the world or all over the world” . However I don’t know whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language like English. MisuN is the vocative use “Oh Little Brother”. Oglu does mean ‘fortune, luck’, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or Makha sitomniyaN means ‘all over the world’. The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means ‘he goes’ one would expect yelo. If it means “go!”. One would expect yayo or iyayo. Bruce On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: Howdy, I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following phrase. Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Jonathan Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Sep 6 16:57:54 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:57:54 +0100 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <20050906164645.23450.qmail@web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Oglu is a noun meaning Œfortune¹ , whereas wapi or wapika means Œfortunate¹ or Œbe fortunate¹. I must say the latter is the one I have seen more often Bruce On 6/9/05 5:46 pm, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: > Bruce, > This helps a great deal. Thanks for taking the time with it. Just one question > though. Is there much of a difference between the use of oglu and the use of > wa'pika for the term "fortune"? > Thanks, > Jonathan > > Bruce Ingham wrote: >> Hi there >> It looks as though it is intended to mean ³Little Brother go with good >> fortune around the world or all over the world² . However I don¹t know >> whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language >> like English. MisuN is the vocative use ³Oh Little Brother². Oglu does mean >> Œfortune, luck¹, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or >> Makha sitomniyaN means Œall over the world¹. The yalo part is slightly odd. >> If it means Œhe goes¹ one would expect yelo. If it means ³go!². One would >> expect yayo or iyayo. >> Bruce >> >> >> On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: >> >>> Howdy, >>> >>> I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following >>> phrase. >>> >>> Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo >>> >>> It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka >>> or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it >>> perhaps because of mis-spelled words? >>> >>> Any help or advice would be appreciated. >>> Jonathan > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 17:04:16 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <431D54E3.4010708@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred, Thanks for taking the time to help out with this. Jonathan "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote: > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? << Yes it is! But I'd guess it should be rather: "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] which I'd - quite hesitantly - translate as: "My younger brother, good luck throughout (the) earth (male speech)!" oglu - luck, fortune; to befall one (so MAYBE: 'oglu waste' is meant as 'good luck' - which I'd judge as an Anglicism) sitomni - all over, throughout Please don't ask wether or not this is good Lakota. (or my translation is erroneous :-( ). Toksa ake Alfred Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jurga at ou.edu Tue Sep 6 17:16:06 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:16:06 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 18:21:10 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:21:10 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > (...) I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his translation was: Younger brother, we make things good around the world, or, Younger brother, we make the world better. << With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 20:09:23 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:09:23 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Jurga. Jonathan jurga at ou.edu wrote: I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his translation was: Younger brother, we make things good around the world, or, Younger brother, we make the world better. Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 7 18:21:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:21:46 -0600 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > translation was: > > Younger  brother, we make things good around the world, > > or, > > Younger brother, we make the world better. Orignal: (correcting to yelo from yalo) "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm Alfred Tueting comments: > With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to > be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed "linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had come about. As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have essentially already done that. I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence results from trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) fortune' and writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. This last glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if taken at face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White Hat's English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is causativized? In what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is trying to be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the level of a scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is "Garbled in, garbled out." From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Sep 7 20:40:39 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:40:39 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat how to tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e-mail or something? I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things good." This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing something into the positive or haviong a positive effect on something/someone or making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they haven't plus I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world better" I would say "Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." Just my two cents. Hehanyedan epe kte do. -Cantemaza de miye do! Koontz John E wrote: >On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > >>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his >>translation was: >> >>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, >> >>or, >> >>Younger brother, we make the world better. >> >> > >Orignal: > >(correcting to yelo from yalo) > >"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" >[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > >Alfred Tueting comments: > > >>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to >>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. >> >> > >I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think >Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by >anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) >practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the >word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, >however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed >"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had >come about. > >As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have essentially >already done that. I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, >though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as >widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is >the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > >I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence results from >trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence >already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) fortune' and >writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. This last >glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if taken at >face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White Hat's >English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is causativized? In >what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, >pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is trying to >be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > >So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the level of a >scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is "Garbled in, >garbled out." > > > >. > > > From jurga at ou.edu Wed Sep 7 21:49:52 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:49:52 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. Jurga Saltanaviciute P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux Reservation); translations were done in person. ----- Original Message ----- From: cantemaza Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat > how to > tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- > mail or > something? > I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things > good." > This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not > ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing > something > into the positive or haviong a positive effect on > something/someone or > making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they > haven't plus > I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world > better" I would say > > "Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." > > Just my two cents. > > Hehanyedan epe kte do. > > -Cantemaza de miye do! > > Koontz John E wrote: > > >On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > > > > >>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > >>translation was: > >> > >>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, > >> > >>or, > >> > >>Younger brother, we make the world better. > >> > >> > > > >Orignal: > > > >(correcting to yelo from yalo) > > > >"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" > >[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > > y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > > > >Alfred Tueting comments: > > > > > >>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation > seems to > >>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. > >> > >> > > > >I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I > don't think > >Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been > faulted by > >anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic > (technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will > forgive me using the > >word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, > >however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed > >"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant > translation had > >come about. > > > >As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have > essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the > sentence is idiomatic, > >though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a > language as > >widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu > was^te is > >the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > > > >I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence > results from > >trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence > >already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) > fortune' and > >writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. > This last > >glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if > taken at > >face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White > Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is > causativized? In > >what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, > >pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is > trying to > >be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > > > >So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the > level of a > >scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is > "Garbled in, > >garbled out." > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Sep 7 22:07:48 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:07:48 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <29d0a74e2ffe.431f1a30@ou.edu> Message-ID: Based on the original text in the first e-mail with "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!", the translation of "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." does fit. Of course if this were from a conversation, based on what was being discussed, it could take on even more meanings. This is very important to remember and something that I try to pass on to my students of the Dakota language. Context and meaning are very important to the speaker and it can be very hard to just say "Hey! What does this phrase mean??" Yes, the speaker does throw their spin and personal interpretatiopn on these words/phrases which makes it even more necessary to be mindful when working with the langauge and including the indigenous perspective instead of saying "This is the one and only way to say this." Thanks for asking around. It is much appreciated! -Cantemaza de miye do! jurga at ou.edu wrote: >I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. >Jurga Saltanaviciute >P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux Reservation); translations were done in person. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: cantemaza >Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm >Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > > > >>Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat >>how to >>tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- >>mail or >>something? >>I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things >>good." >>This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not >>ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing >>something >>into the positive or haviong a positive effect on >>something/someone or >>making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they >>haven't plus >>I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world >>better" I would say >> >>"Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." >> >>Just my two cents. >> >>Hehanyedan epe kte do. >> >>-Cantemaza de miye do! >> >>Koontz John E wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his >>>>translation was: >>>> >>>>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, >>>> >>>>or, >>>> >>>>Younger brother, we make the world better. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Orignal: >>> >>>(correcting to yelo from yalo) >>> >>>"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" >>>[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] >>>y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm >>> >>>Alfred Tueting comments: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation >>>> >>>> >>seems to >> >> >>>>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I >>> >>> >>don't think >> >> >>>Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been >>> >>> >>faulted by >> >> >>>anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic >>> >>> >>(technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will >>forgive me using the >> >> >>>word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, >>>however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed >>>"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant >>> >>> >>translation had >> >> >>>come about. >>> >>>As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have >>> >>> >>essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the >>sentence is idiomatic, >> >> >>>though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a >>> >>> >>language as >> >> >>>widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu >>> >>> >>was^te is >> >> >>>the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? >>> >>>I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence >>> >>> >>results from >> >> >>>trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence >>>already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) >>> >>> >>fortune' and >> >> >>>writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. >>> >>> >>This last >> >> >>>glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if >>> >>> >>taken at >> >> >>>face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White >>> >>> >>Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is >>causativized? In >> >> >>>what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, >>>pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is >>> >>> >>trying to >> >> >>>be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. >>> >>>So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the >>> >>> >>level of a >> >> >>>scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is >>> >>> >>"Garbled in, >> >> >>>garbled out." >>> >>> >>> >>>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >. > > > From jurga at ou.edu Thu Sep 8 00:44:41 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:44:41 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: I am not doing this to confuse anybody, but here is another interesting translation. I am actually quite enjoying this. According to yet another speaker, if this phrase comes from a song or prayer, it could mean, "Younger brother, we make up (o-glu waste) [and make it known] around the world." I think this example only shows the problems that we are facing in translation, because my experience with Lakota so far shows that the words can mean many different things and without knowing the cultural context it is sometimes hard to even make sense. Jurga ----- Original Message ----- From: cantemaza Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > Based on the original text in the first e-mail with "Misun, oglu > waste > maka sitomni yelo!", > the translation of "Younger brother, there are good things around > the > world." does fit. Of course if this were from a conversation, > based on > what was being discussed, it could take on even more meanings. > This is > very important to remember and something that I try to pass on to > my > students of the Dakota language. Context and meaning are very > important > to the speaker and it can be very hard to just say "Hey! What > does this > phrase mean??" Yes, the speaker does throw their spin and > personal > interpretatiopn on these words/phrases which makes it even more > necessary to be mindful when working with the langauge and > including the > indigenous perspective instead of saying "This is the one and only > way > to say this." Thanks for asking around. It is much appreciated! > > -Cantemaza de miye do! > > > jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > >I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated > it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." > It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the > speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the > sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view > of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in > the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic > anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. > >Jurga Saltanaviciute > >P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux > Reservation); translations were done in person. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: cantemaza > >Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm > >Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > > > > > > > >>Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert > WhiteHat > >>how to > >>tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- > >>mail or > >>something? > >>I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things > >>good." > >>This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not > >>ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing > >>something > >>into the positive or haviong a positive effect on > >>something/someone or > >>making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they > >>haven't plus > >>I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the > world > >>better" I would say > >> > >>"Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." > >> > >>Just my two cents. > >> > >>Hehanyedan epe kte do. > >> > >>-Cantemaza de miye do! > >> > >>Koontz John E wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > >>>>translation was: > >>>> > >>>>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, > >>>> > >>>>or, > >>>> > >>>>Younger brother, we make the world better. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Orignal: > >>> > >>>(correcting to yelo from yalo) > >>> > >>>"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" > >>>[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > >>>y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > >>> > >>>Alfred Tueting comments: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this > translation > >>>> > >>>> > >>seems to > >> > >> > >>>>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I > >>> > >>> > >>don't think > >> > >> > >>>Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been > >>> > >>> > >>faulted by > >> > >> > >>>anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic > >>> > >>> > >>(technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks > will > >>forgive me using the > >> > >> > >>>word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, > >>>however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed > >>>"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant > >>> > >>> > >>translation had > >> > >> > >>>come about. > >>> > >>>As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have > >>> > >>> > >>essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the > >>sentence is idiomatic, > >> > >> > >>>though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a > >>> > >>> > >>language as > >> > >> > >>>widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places > oglu > >>> > >>> > >>was^te is > >> > >> > >>>the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > >>> > >>>I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence > >>> > >>> > >>results from > >> > >> > >>>trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original > sentence>>>already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for > '(good) > >>> > >>> > >>fortune' and > >> > >> > >>>writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. > >>> > >>> > >>This last > >> > >> > >>>glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if > >>> > >>> > >>taken at > >> > >> > >>>face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. > White > >>> > >>> > >>Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is > >>causativized? In > >> > >> > >>>what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, > >>>pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat > is > >>> > >>> > >>trying to > >> > >> > >>>be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > >>> > >>>So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the > >>> > >>> > >>level of a > >> > >> > >>>scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is > >>> > >>> > >>"Garbled in, > >> > >> > >>>garbled out." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Sep 8 10:14:44 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:14:44 +0000 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci From: "Bruce Ingham" Message-ID: I was intersted to hear that one of the correspondents interpreted ogluwas^te, which I took as 'good fortune', as uNgluwas^te 'we make something good, improve something'. It is true that uN- and o- do sound quite similar and if this was from a tape, one could easily be the same as the other. However it just seems strange that the sentence should be the exclusive 'we' ie 'you and I' rather than the inclusive uN....pi ' I and other people'. It seems to make less sense, but as someone said, we should know the context to make sense of it. While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. Are these really two separate words or are they the same word spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. Can any Lakotas or Dakotas out there help? Yours Bruce -----Original Message----- From: jurga at ou.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:44:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? I am not doing this to confuse anybody, but here is another interesting translation. I am actually quite enjoying this. According to yet another speaker, if this phrase comes from a song or prayer, it could mean, "Younger brother, we make up (o-glu waste) [and make it known] around the world." ther people'. It seems to make less sense, but as someone said, we should know the context to make sense of it. While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. Are these really two separate words or are they the same word spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. Can any Lakotas or Dakotas out there help? Yours Bruce -----Original Message----- From: jurga at ou.edu To: siouan@ From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Sep 8 13:23:29 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:23:29 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: >> With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to be in need of linguistical elucidation, isn't it?.<<<< > I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed "linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had come about. << Oh, my apologize if my comment was causing any misunderstanding. Thanks, John, for clearing things: I just wanted to express it the way you explained above. (People might know my deep appreciation for Mr. White Hat's work and I share most of his views on "how" to speak and understand the language in our modern days, and I like the way he personally does.) > (...) I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? << At a second thought, I also asked myself wether or not this sentence could be an idiomatism or at least a standing phrase (without explicite need of a verb/predicate, e.g. in Hungarian 'Jó reggelt (kivánok)!" - (wish [you])[a] good morning! or in German "Hut ab!"- compliments! etc. etc. Yet, for me it is totally clear now: Mr. White Hat - being 'at home' in his language - obviously didn't hesitate one second to rule out **oglu waste, although hearing a sentence like this, because he knew that this wasn't part of the Lakota vocabulary, and replacing the expression by _ungluwaste_ [uNglu'was^te] which is grammatical - because providing the predicate needed - and also makes a lot of sense! yuwaste [yuwa's^te] (= waste with the hand/action prefix): to make smth. good/better -> gluwaste [gluwa's^te] (the dative/ki form): to make smth. good/better for one. Hence: Misun, ungluwaste maka sitomni yelo! - Younger brother, let us make it better [for us] all around/throughout [the] earth! (Maybe: ... let's make this our world better to live in, etc.) Only context can tell why it is not _ungluwaste pi_ (as Bruce refers to). As for _maka sitomni_ (instead of _maka sitomniyan_), I'd assume that it is meant adverbially here. Other than verbs (or nouns), adverbs obviously do not seem to be restricted with regard to their position within the Lakota syntax. Toksa ake Alfred From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 8 18:10:34 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:10:34 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: Aloha Bob, Our library has the reference book you cited. I'll wander over today and take a peak for the ghost/boogeyman/firefly. Thanks to all who chimed in on this inquiry. wibthahoN Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: RE: kuku'i ghost The place to go for the best etymologizing would be the "Diccionario Critico Etimologico" of Spanish. If I think of it, I'll try to check next time I'm in the biblioteca. I guess I should check and see if they've put it on-line. Bob From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Sep 8 18:58:38 2005 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:58:38 +0200 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci In-Reply-To: <1126174484.c071bea0Bi1@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, > While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often > confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, > accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. > Are these really two separate words or are they the same word > spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with speakers and texts they are. Notice for instance that ogna' is often used in combination with the demonstratives le and he and that logna' 'this way' and hogna' 'that way' are fully lexicalized adverbs. But there is no such word as *huNgna' or *luNgna'. Jan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 8 21:03:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:03:38 -0500 Subject: Geoff Kimball Message-ID: Those on the list who are acquainted with New Orleans linguist Geoff Kimball (author of the Koasati grammar and dictionary) will be happy to learn that he is OK. He says he stayed in his home there through the storm and had minimal damage but that the security situation afterward led him to go and stay with friends in another town for awhile, so he is near Houma, LA at the moment. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 8 20:29:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:29:47 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha Negatives (RE: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci) In-Reply-To: <002e01c5b4a7$52bbe1b0$0201a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and > uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two > are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with > speakers and texts they are. (Thanks to everyone for pointing out the porential for #o- ~ #uN- confusion in Lakota. I'd overlooked that.) I think that historically the -gna element is what amounts to a vertitive (in k-) of the 'sitting'/'round' positional. The comparable OP form would be gdhaN, though I think OP ugdhaN (< *o-k-raN(kE)) is 'to put (a round thing) in, to insert (a round thing)'. That would be a linguist's analytical gloss, not a colloquial one. I'd have to check that the form occurs, but I seem to remember it. The uN- element in Lakota uNgna I don't recognize. I'm assuming that the underlying stem is again -gna, which it might not be. Potentially the form could be something like (?) *uNk-la I suppose. The only parallel for uN- or uNk- that occurs to me is OP aNkkaz^i 'no'. This is actually a sort of particle aNkkV to which has been appended the somewhat inflected OP negative. A1 aNkka=m=az^i 'me not' A2 aNkka=z^i 'you not' A3/Plural aNkka=b=az^i 'she/he/it/they/us/y'all not' The negative morpheme is =(a)z^i, which conditions the a-grade, as does the plural/proximate =b(i). The only actual inflected form is maN 'I do' in the first person. The rest is just negative base aNkkV, plural-proximate =b(i) and =(a)z^i negative in various combinations. I don't control the idiomatic use of the personal forms here, but I think you could gloss them 'I say no(t)', etc. 'Yes' could be hau (ho) 'expression of agreement, approval' if male is speaking to male, but I think verification and agreement are more usually expressed as egaN 'like that', comparable to Latin sic, the source of Spanish si, Portuguese sim, etc., in Romance. The form egaN is itself inflectable, e.g., A1 egimaN A2 egiz^aN A3 egaN I am not sure of plural(s) at the moment! I don't think the personal forms are used in agreement (i.e., saying 'yes'), but I don't know. Anyway, returning to aNkkV, its internal structure is obscure to me, but I suppose it might be *uNk-ki-, parallel with e=g(i)-aN < *e-ki-?uN. In that case the aN < *?uN reflected in A1 aNkka=m=az^i might be a parallel with the more complete paradigm of aN < *?uN in egimaN < A1 *e-ki-m-?uN, etc. If that's so then aNk- in aNkkaz^i 'no' might well be historically from *uNk- 'doubtful', and be used in parallel with *e- 'thus, as stated' in egaN 'yes, thus'. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Sep 9 12:12:03 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:12:03 +0100 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci In-Reply-To: <002e01c5b4a7$52bbe1b0$0201a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: Thanks Jan and John and others The ogna and uNgna one is not so difficult, because usually you can tell from the context what is meant. This is also usually true when they have further suffixes, because they seem to become specialized in meaning as with uNgnahaNs^na 'occasionally' and uNgnahela or uNgnahaNla 'suddenly, unexpectedly'. At least I hope that is what they mean, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I have difficulty in knowing what ognayehci means in some cases, but take it to mean 'closely, accurately'. Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning? Bruce On 8/9/05 7:58 pm, "Jan F. Ullrich" wrote: > Hi Bruce, > >> While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often >> confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, >> accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. >> Are these really two separate words or are they the same word >> spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. > > > The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and > uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two > are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with > speakers and texts they are. > Notice for instance that ogna' is often used in combination with the > demonstratives le and he and that logna' 'this way' and hogna' 'that way' > are fully lexicalized adverbs. But there is no such word as *huNgna' or > *luNgna'. > > Jan > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Sep 9 14:19:58 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:19:58 +0200 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci Message-ID: > I have difficulty in knowing what ognayehci means in some cases, but take it to mean 'closely, accurately'. Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning? << ognayehci [ogna'yeh^ci] is given as 'closely, nearly, about' by Buechel - okay so far, but what does ognaye mean, assuming that the final -h^ca being a particle to express the idea of 'real', 'true' or something in this sense (cf. winuhca - about: 'real wife/my wife'- W-H jr.; a man's mother-in-law - B; tahca [txa'h^ca] the deer as such; wahca the generic name for flowers etc.)? BTW, is h^ca cognate to h^ci?? (e.g. hcahca - very; hcA - very; hci - very. My guess is that ognaye is derived from ogna (that expresses the idea of in/inside, hold in etc. ungna seems to give the notion of uncertainty (perhaps, I do not know but that - B; beware lest - R) -> ungnagata (in the corner behind the door - B), ungnage (the places on both sides of the tent door inside; in the corner behind the door; the place fenced off(!) on each side of the door of a lodge - B etc.); ungnahah^ci (possibly, it may be so - B,R); ungnahan -> ungnahanla (suddenly, immediately - B,R; maybe: "one didn't know of smth just little time before"); ungnahelayA (to surprise one - B). BTW, I didn't find *ungnayehci but only ungnayehcis [uNgna'yeh^cis^] which is in the same line like the examples above (emph.: perhaps, possibly - B). I'd appreciate any comments. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Sep 11 15:18:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:18:07 -0500 Subject: FW: a conference announcement. Message-ID: This was sent to me, and probably to many of you, and I thought it might be interesting to the list. Bob Workshop organised by Hans Christian Luschützky and Franz Rainer on The polysemy of agent nouns Call for papers In many languages, the patterns used in the formation of agent nouns may also serve for the formation of instrumental, locative and other nouns (cf., e.g., the German nomina acti of the type Seufzer 'sigh', from seufzen 'to sigh'). It is generally believed that this polysemy is very wide-spread cross-linguistically and that its supposed ubiquity has been the result of independent processes of semantic extension, especially metaphor or metonymy. A closer look at the bibliography on this problem, however, reveals that both the typological and the diachronic part of this common belief are, up to now, underdetermined by the facts. On the one hand, studies about non-Indo-European languages are extremely rare. On the other, most studies about Indo-European are essentially synchronic in nature, and even if they are diachronic, they hardly ever give detailed information about when and how exactly the supposed semantic extension occurred. Some diachronic studies furthermore show that at least in some cases what looks like polysemy from a purely synchronic perspective must be attributed to other mechanisms (borrowing, loan-translation, homonymisation of formerly distinct patterns, ellipsis, or conversion) when subjected to a detailed diachronic analysis. In our workshop, we would like to subject the (supposed) polysemy of agent nouns to closer scrutiny. All kinds of contributions capable of shedding new light on the problem are welcome in principle, but we would like to encourage particularly studies taking into account languages and language families that have been hitherto neglected as well as in-depth diachronic studies of individual languages. Colleagues interested in participating in the workshop are invited to send a one-page abstract (preferably pdf) to one of the organizers before the end of December, 2005. The workshop will take place during the International Morphology Meeting in Budapest. hans.christian.luschuetzky at univie.ac.at franz.rainer at wu-wien.ac.at Further details on the workshop will be available on H. Ch. Luschützky's homepage in due course: http://homepage.univie.ac.at/hans.christian.luschuetzky/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 12 07:12:14 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 01:12:14 -0600 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration In-Reply-To: <001e01c5afd4$1e6796c0$e5650945@JIMM> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > It may be coincidence or an earlier pronunciation, but Dorsey consistantly > has no "h" for the following: > hina'ge (woman) > DOR ina'ge > hina's^age (old woman) > ina'sh^age DOR > ha'xoje (ashes) > DOR a'xoje > > I believe I've noted other instances, ... The first two IO examples here are presumably cognate with one of Long's problem Winnebago forms, hinuNk 'woman'. The Wi and IO forms here are suggested to be reflexes of the PMV form *wiN(h)-, but even if initial *w becomes h and and an intrusive r between iN and what follows provides the n, it's not clear where we get the final -uNk(e) < *-uNk(a) from. The CSD suggests influence from *i-yuNke 'his/her daughter'. From goodtracks at gbronline.com Tue Sep 13 01:20:16 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:20:16 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was an E-MELD conference for the purpose of standardizing the documentation of languages, especially endangered languages. Many people are all ready well into the composing of their particular language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a number of standards, called "best practices", which includes writting all dictionaries, and other language work using unicode fonts. The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem of corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC system to another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents etc. that one writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the same will be received and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was exactly written at the source of origin.PC person Of course, that will happen now when any PC shares the same fonts as the sender. Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My initial Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was written with a Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an antique system. Those records composed on the Tandy can no longer be read by my present PC. Fortunately, I had already converted them to a higher windows version, Yet, in some cases, accents and several special fonts where mutated irregardless. What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary work and may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over again in the Unicode fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations imposing their national language on the minority languages, Tagalog, English, Japanese, et.al., on the individual Filipino, the Native American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or the Ainu. The plan for a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the course for the minority community language to become an endangered language, and with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps it is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, especially those who have had to already go back into their documents and reedit the whole work. Jimm From wablenica at mail.ru Tue Sep 13 04:54:05 2005 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Constantine Chmielnicki) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:54:05 +0400 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: Hello Jimm, Was that the problem of the incompatible information carrier (diskette etc.) or the weird character coding? If the former, the problem is hard to fix, I'm afraid - you have to find the Tandy system that'd support both proprietary and IBM PC compatible formats If the latter, the problem can be solved with character conversion - in case the coding can be deciphered, for example, if the texts are a mixture of ANSI code (plain English ABC letters) and some nonstandard codes for letters with diacritics. I checked Google and found out that "The Tandy 1000 was a line of more or less IBM PC compatible home computer systems produced by the Tandy Corporation for sale in its Radio Shack chain of stores" --Then your problems are not serious, I hope. The massive character conversion can be done, for example, with CC, Consistent Changes program, available at www.sil.org. You can send a sample file to me or somebody acquainted with CC (or similar software), and I'll make the special file, conversion table, for it. The latest version of CC is quite user-friendly. You launch the program, select the conversion table file (say, IOM.cct), select the source and destination file and within second the conversion is done. In CC you can convert the text into UTF8 Unicode format that is understood by modern Windows and MS-Word. (Although I prefer to work with some plain ABC substitutes for Unicode, as s^ for "esh", converting to Unicode in the end.) Perhaps additional problem may arise if the texts are not in "plain text format" but in some proprietary format with some formatting information (fontfaces, font sizes, bold / italcs, etc.) added. Then additional work to strip the text of these formatting stuff should be done. If it is similar to Bushotter (+TA*KU T'HEPYA*PI KEYA*PI'? , NA'4 U'4* PAHA* KI'4 HE* ), or even with some weird (but consistently added) characters, then it is OK. Toksha akhe Constantine Chmielnicki wablenica at mail.ru ======= At 2005-09-13, 05:20:16 you wrote: ======= >I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was an E-MELD >conference for the purpose of standardizing the documentation of languages, >especially endangered languages. >Many people are all ready well into the composing of their particular >language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a number of standards, >called "best practices", which includes writting all dictionaries, and other >language work using unicode fonts. >The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem of >corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC system to >another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents etc. that one >writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the same will be received >and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was exactly written at the source of >origin.PC person Of course, that will happen now when any PC shares the >same fonts as the sender. >Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My initial >Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was written with a >Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an antique system. Those >records composed on the Tandy can no longer be read by my present PC. >Fortunately, I had already converted them to a higher windows version, Yet, >in some cases, accents and several special fonts where mutated irregardless. >What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary work and >may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over again in the Unicode >fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations imposing their national language >on the minority languages, Tagalog, English, Japanese, et.al., on the >individual Filipino, the Native American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or >the Ainu. The plan for a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the >course for the minority community language to become an endangered language, >and with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps it >is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, especially those >who have had to already go back into their documents and reedit the whole >work. >Jimm > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Constantine Chmielnicki wablenica at mail.ru 2005-09-13 From goodtracks at gbronline.com Tue Sep 13 13:27:28 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:27:28 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Constantine Chmielnicki" To: Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:54 PM Subject: Re: UNICODE UPDATTING > Hello Jimm, > > Was that the problem of the incompatible information carrier (diskette > etc.) or the weird character coding? Constantine! Thanks for your excellent reply. Perhaps, I wasn't clear to say the the problem has been resolved several years ago. I did a conversion as you mentioned which brought everything up to date. So there is no longer a problem. And I have been able to continue with the reformatting of the dictionary. I just wondered if the new government emphasis to change to a set standard is presenting a problem for others in general. Presently, I use a font which is standard and has the accents and a few additional characters. I have John's Siouan fonts, viz., SsDo SIL DoulosL installed. I use two characters from this set on formal papers -- the glottal stop (0216 stroke) and the "inge" (0223). However, I usually do not use them in transmittion, except under a PDF Adobe format, as they will alter on the PC of the receiver, most of which do not have the Siouan font. Irregardless, your information is worth printing out and keeping for further need and reference. Jimm As I changed PCs from the earlier From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 21:35:54 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:35:54 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: I've been working on the Papers of George Washington and came across in a letter of 1777 the phrase "three Tribes low down upon the Missisipi viz. the Ukafpaw Tuckepaws and Oyayachtanu's 2000". Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. The editor identifies the Tuckepaws as Atakapas, which seems reasonable. For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant of the full form of Wea? Thanks, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 14 22:01:18 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:01:18 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <432897BA.50304@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant > of the full form of Wea? Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable is also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you need them, Alan. Michael From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Sep 14 22:16:52 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:16:52 -0700 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized /h/ preceding the /p/. This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. David > > Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 23:42:18 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:42:18 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. > I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized > /h/ preceding the /p/. > > This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other > records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough south to associate with the Quapaw? Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 23:55:24 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:55:24 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <1126735278.43289daf00057@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable is > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you need > them, Alan. Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: Oiatinon 1698 Weachtheno 1711 Wawioughtanes 1757 Warraghtinook 1759 Waggueoughtennees 1759 Waweaugtenno 1760 Wawiachta 1761 Wawayoughtinne 1762 Yaughtanou 1764 Wyahtinaw 1784 Weautenaus 1814 I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". Best, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 11:37:30 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:37:30 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <4328B86C.8070706@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, Here are a couple more (usual) English transcriptions of "Ouiatanon"" Quaxtana 1749-1755 (Lewis Evans) Quaaghtena (date unknown) (appears in Hiram Beckwith's work--1st president of the Illinois Historical Society) Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. Also, Dave's comment about the f is right on target. Preaspiration was heard by Europeans who occasionally attempted to transcribe it--with a variety of symbols. I've never really followed the transmississipian movements of the Wea after they left the Indiana area. The tribe, as a whole, established two villages on the lower Wabash, at Terre Haute, between 1786-1791. Another group, led by Noel Dagenais, a native speaker of Miami-Illinois and a metis, lived on Big Raccoon Creek, a Wabash tributary somewhat near Terre Haute, until 1846, then went to Kansas. Michael Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the > > > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable > is > > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you > need > > them, Alan. > > Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as > well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: > > Oiatinon 1698 > Weachtheno 1711 > Wawioughtanes 1757 > Warraghtinook 1759 > Waggueoughtennees 1759 > Waweaugtenno 1760 > Wawiachta 1761 > Wawayoughtinne 1762 > Yaughtanou 1764 > Wyahtinaw 1784 > Weautenaus 1814 > > I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". > > Best, > > Alan > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 11:41:50 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:41:50 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <1126784250.43295cfaa088b@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Meant to say "(unusual)". Regrets. Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > Alan, > > Here are a couple more (usual) English transcriptions of "Ouiatanon"" > > Quaxtana 1749-1755 (Lewis Evans) > > Quaaghtena (date unknown) (appears in Hiram Beckwith's work--1st president of > > the Illinois Historical Society) > > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. > > Also, Dave's comment about the f is right on target. Preaspiration was heard > > by Europeans who occasionally attempted to transcribe it--with a variety of > symbols. > > I've never really followed the transmississipian movements of the Wea after > they left the Indiana area. The tribe, as a whole, established two villages > on > the lower Wabash, at Terre Haute, between 1786-1791. Another group, led by > Noel Dagenais, a native speaker of Miami-Illinois and a metis, lived on Big > Raccoon Creek, a Wabash tributary somewhat near Terre Haute, until 1846, then > > went to Kansas. > > Michael > > Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > > > > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for > the > > > > > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last > syllable > > is > > > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you > > need > > > them, Alan. > > > > Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as > > well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: > > > > Oiatinon 1698 > > Weachtheno 1711 > > Wawioughtanes 1757 > > Warraghtinook 1759 > > Waggueoughtennees 1759 > > Waweaugtenno 1760 > > Wawiachta 1761 > > Wawayoughtinne 1762 > > Yaughtanou 1764 > > Wyahtinaw 1784 > > Weautenaus 1814 > > > > I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". > > > > Best, > > > > Alan > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 12:44:25 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:44:25 +0100 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Didn't Daviot or Gravier meet an old Quapaw man in about 1700 somewhere near the Arkansas River (I may be wrong on that point, though) who could communicate with them in what they described as Peoria (but which could have been Wea)? Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 15 14:27:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:27:21 -0700 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. >> I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized >> /h/ preceding the /p/. >> This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other >> records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. > Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. > On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough > south to associate with the Quapaw? I see no indication of it in either Tanner's atlas or the Handbook, but that doesn't mean some stray band of Weas didn't wander down to Arkansas at some point. Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:30:58 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:30:58 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony, It was Marquette and Jolliet et al. who met a Michigamea man, who could speak Miami-Illinois, living among Dhegiha near the mouth of the Arkansas River. I forget whether if was Quapaw or some other group he was with. Michael Quoting Anthony Grant : > Didn't Daviot or Gravier meet an old Quapaw man in about 1700 somewhere > near the Arkansas River (I may be wrong on that point, though) who could > communicate with them in what they described as Peoria (but which could > have been Wea)? > > Anthony > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the > use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify > Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. > However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business > communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are > virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure > that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any > loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 15 14:38:03 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:38:03 -0700 Subject: Wea Message-ID: The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed. I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Also, don't forget Ojibwe 'Detroit', given by Baraga. This and the M-I forms can be compared to Shawnee /waawiyawhtanwi/ 'water circles around'. Incidentally, there's a joke among the Miamis nowadays that "'Wea' is short for 'We Ah Miami'". Dave > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:43:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:43:06 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There actually seems to have been an intimate connection between Miami- Illinois speakers and Dhegiha speakers. For example, it is thought the Michigamea were originally a Dhegiha-speaking group that come under the roof of the Illinois subtribes in late prehistory. I think John Koontz, in fact, mentions that at his website. In the 1700s Illinois residency and hunting extended far down the western side of the Mississippi valley and contact with Dhegiha speakers is a given. Perhaps it should be said in this connection that the Wea, of all the Miami subtribes, were the most friendly with the Illinois historically. Quoting David Costa : > >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated > /p/. > >> I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a > semi-labialized > >> /h/ preceding the /p/. > > >> This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in > other > >> records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. > > > Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. > > > On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough > > south to associate with the Quapaw? > > I see no indication of it in either Tanner's atlas or the Handbook, but that > doesn't mean some stray band of Weas didn't wander down to Arkansas at some > point. > > Dave > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:53:29 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:53:29 -0500 Subject: Wea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is > 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of > Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed It was given to Dunn by Gabriel Godfroy, an authoritative source, in the form "wiatanongi" (leaving out accent marks and a part of my memory. I think you have it in your databank.) Then, perhaps that "i" was a slip on Dunn's part. At the same time, for the French to have created "Ouia-" in "Ouiatanon" from Miami-Illinois /waayaah-/ is quite unusual. Hmmm. . > > I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember > where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Yup. It's in Thwaites, JR 58:23. Ainsi soit-il. It looks rather Ojibweyan. From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Sep 15 15:08:36 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:08:36 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: > Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. I'd reckon that English speakers generally unfamiliar with velar fricatives have written them all sorts of ways, but I've seen 'f' before. There's an old Kaw census listing Hard Chief (Gahige Wac^c^exi) as Ki-he-ga-wah-chuffe. From daynal at nsula.edu Thu Sep 15 15:19:40 2005 From: daynal at nsula.edu (Dayna Lee) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:19:40 -0500 Subject: Wea Message-ID: I got it as far as the office before the flood. I'll put it in the mail today. -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:38 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Wea The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed. I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Also, don't forget Ojibwe 'Detroit', given by Baraga. This and the M-I forms can be compared to Shawnee /waawiyawhtanwi/ 'water circles around'. Incidentally, there's a joke among the Miamis nowadays that "'Wea' is short for 'We Ah Miami'". Dave > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record > for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 20:54:10 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:54:10 -0700 Subject: College Uses Rap Music to Preserve a Language Message-ID: Howdy, I thought many on the list may be interested in this recent news story. Jonathan Rap Song Aimed at Native American Teens The Washington Times 12 Sept. 2005 SISSETON, SD (UPI) -- A new rap song is aimed at encouraging young Native Americans to learn their native language. Tammy DeCoteau, director of the American Indian language programs for the Association of American Indian Affairs, has been trying to find new ways to expose young people on the Lake Traverse Reservation to their ancestral language, the Fargo (N.D.) Forum reported. The latest project is a rap song with Dakota lyrics. "We're trying to get the language where you wouldn't ordinarily see it -- through music or games, anywhere we can get their attention," said DeCoteau. She said the popularity of rap music among young adults and children made it an obvious vehicle to kindle interest in Dakota, which is spoken fluently by a dwindling number of the tribe's elders. DeCoteau and others at Sisseton-Wahpeton College in Sisseton, S.D., who were involved in the project, believe "Wicozani Mitawa" or "My Life" is the first rap song recorded in the Dakota language. More than 250 compact discs containing the song have been distributed free of charge to young people on the reservation. ************************************************************ Taken from: http://newspad.prweb.com/pr/20058/pr274894.html College Uses Rap Music to Preserve a Language The first rap song ever recorded in the Dakotah language is being used to help revitalize the endangered langauge. This is one of many language revitalization projects that the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the Association on American Indian Affairs has produced that has reached out to Dakota youth, helping to ensure a new generation of Dakotah speakers and keep alive the traditional language. Agency Village, SD (PRWEB) August 21, 2005 -- The first rap song ever recorded in the Dakotah language was produced in a joint effort by the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the Association on American Indian Affairs. The rap song, titled “Wicozani Mitawa,” or “My Life,” was recorded at a studio on the Sisseton Wahpeton College campus in Sisseton, SD, on the Lake Traverse Reservation. College President, Dr. William Harjo Lone Fight, a nationally renowned figure in the field of Native language restoration, hailed the song for its creativity and importance. “For a language to flourish it has to be used. That is the bottom line. This son helps bring Dakota into the 21st century as a living language with relevance to our youth.” SWC and AAIA are encouraging everyone to make a copy of the CD so the Dakotah language can be heard by as many Dakota youth as possible. “The entire concept behind this project is to create a way to have an entire generation of young people actually hear Dakotah being used,” Director of the Native Language Program for AAIA, Tammy Decoteau, said. The Dakotah lyrics for the song were first written in English by Sisseton-Wahpeton Dakota member Tristan Eastman. The lyrics were then translated into Dakotah and edited by Dakota elders Orsen Bernard, Edwina Bernard, Wayne Eastman, Olivia Eastman, V. June Renville, and Delbert Pumpkinseed. With the translation in hand, Tristan Eastman performed the song in Dakotah to music written by Tim Laughter. The collaboration between elders and youth resulted in a Dakotah rap song that is the first of its kind, putting the words and feelings of today’s youth into the Dakotah language to create an authentic voice. “Some of the Dakotah words had really deep meaning and when translating we were trying to interpret what that young person [Tristan Eastman] was saying and put a lot of positive thinking in there, but at the same time expressing what he felt,” translator Orsen Bernard said. The original plan for the Dakotah rap song was to create “simple rap songs for children because the children are listening to whatever it is their parents are listening to and we felt that they would respond well to rap-style songs,” DeCoteau said. But during an informal conversation DeCoteau was having with Eastman, “He mentioned that he wrote rap songs. One of our productions was a CD of popular children’s songs, sung in the Dakotah language so the elders had already had experience in translating songs from English to Dakotah.” The result is a Dakotah rap song that older youth can find a positive cultural identity in. The Dakotah rap song is on the forefront of creatively keeping endangered languages alive and relevant to young speakers. For a language to survive it must be a powerful medium for new generations of speakers to express themselves in with the confidence that they will be heard. The Dakotah language, in its struggle for survival and relevancy with Dakota youth, is now being used in one of American culture’s most dominant forms of expression, rap music. Such creative steps act as an invitation for Dakota youth to engage with and learn their traditional language. “If we could reach the young people in one way or another with the words which have such deep meanings, hopefully down the road, they may look those words up,” Bernard said. There is good reason for Bernard to be hopeful that combining the traditional language of the Dakota people with mainstream culture will work. After 12 year old LaRelle Gill first heard the Dakotah rap song, she said, “This is really cool. I could learn how to speak Dakotah by listening to this song.” The partnership between the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the AAIA has created several Dakotah language revitalization projects that have taken advantage of modern media to reach Dakota youth, including books, PowerPoint presentations, DVDs, CDs, an animation piece that was nominated for Best Animation at the Native Voices Film Festival, and now a rap song. AAIA and Sisseton Wahpeton College are encouraging free dissemination of the rap song to anyone who is interested. The CD with liner notes is also available through the SWC bookstore for $5, with 100 percent of the profits going back into future Dakotah language projects like the rap song. The point is not to make a profit, but to save a language, as Decoteau said, “The CDs are created with the message printed clearly on both the CD and the sleeve, to make copies and share them simply in order to allow for as many people as possible to hear the Dakotah language.” # # # Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 15 21:24:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:24:23 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Sorry, I've been out of town. The "F" in Quapaw even turns up sporadically in semi-speakers of the '60's and '70's. It's a mishearing of [x] or an inability to replacate it on the part of monolingual Europeans. Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f], often said to be of Northumbrian origin (and, no, it doesn't matter to me where the English sound change really originated). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan H. Hartley Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 4:35 PM To: Siouan Subject: Quappa I've been working on the Papers of George Washington and came across in a letter of 1777 the phrase "three Tribes low down upon the Missisipi viz. the Ukafpaw Tuckepaws and Oyayachtanu's 2000". Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. The editor identifies the Tuckepaws as Atakapas, which seems reasonable. For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant of the full form of Wea? Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 15 21:40:42 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:40:42 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of > 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f] Good point. The change in English (that of London, at least) was mostly accomplished in 15-16c, though 'thurf' appears for 'through' in 13c. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 15 22:03:56 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:03:56 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Yeah, it's supposed to have been only following rounded vowels, but there's clearly some dialect mixing involved. There is no attestation of any fluent Quapaw speaker making the substitution however. It was either a Euro-American phenomenon or a very late semi-rememberer of the language. It's all [x] in Dorsey and Gatschet's 19th century stuff as well as the c. 1825 list from Gen. Izard. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan H. Hartley Sent: Thu 9/15/2005 4:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Quappa Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of > 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f] Good point. The change in English (that of London, at least) was mostly accomplished in 15-16c, though 'thurf' appears for 'through' in 13c. Alan From goodtracks at gbronline.com Fri Sep 16 03:10:01 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:10:01 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Task Force Language Report Message-ID: FOR YOUR INFORMATION ----- Original Message ----- From: "marianne Ignace" To: ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: New Task Force Language Report >> Dear friends of Language Revitalization >> > I and my fellow Task Force members have just completed a comprehensive > report to the Canadian government as requested laying our a > comprehensive basis for a long term strategy for enhancing our 60-70 > endangered languages in canada You can view, download or order copies > for free by going to ----aboriignallanguagestaskforce.ca and scrolling > down to Foundational Report...... Please pass on the info. We need to > insure Canada > implements the recommendations . You help is neededl. > thank you > chair > Task Force on Language And Culture > Ronald Ignace > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 21 06:48:26 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:48:26 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1126794658.432985a242ca3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > It was Marquette and Jolliet et al. who met a Michigamea man, who could > speak Miami-Illinois, living among Dhegiha near the mouth of the > Arkansas River. I forget whether if was Quapaw or some other group he > was with. This is not quite correct, though closer than my own recollection. I had to look at the account again to recall the details to my mind. I'm using a 1966 reprint of the Thwaites edition of 1900. In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. Communications with these people were weak, perhaps by signs. They did not understand Huron and spoke an unknown language. They reported trading with Europeans to the east. They thought it worth reporting that their trade contacts played musical instruments. I mention these people because it shows the ethnic diversity of the sub-Ohio Mississippi in 1673. The next village, near the 33rd degree of latitude, was called Mitchigamea [recognizably Miami-Illinois for big-water]. "At first we had to speak by signs ['parler par gestes' in the parallel French version], because none of them understood the six languages which I spoke. At last we found an old man who could speak a little Ilinois. [In regard to the distance to the sea] we obtained no other answer than that we could learn all that we desired at another large village, called Akamsea, which was only 8 or 10 leagues lower down. [They are accompanied there by their translator.] We fortunately found there a young man who understood Ilinois much better than did the interpeter whom we had brought from Mitchigamea." Presumably the new translator was a native of Akamsea, which seems to have been Cappa (Okaxpa or 'Downstream'). The Akamsea indicated that they traded through nations to the east of them, or through an Illinois village four days to the west. This latter village was apparently not the Mitchigamea village, which a day to the north. A short description of the Akamsea follows including the comment "Their language is exceedingly difficult, and I could succeed in pronouncing only a few words notwithstanding all my efforts." ["Leur langue est extremement difficile, et je ne pouvois venir about d'en prononcer quelques mots, quelque effort que je pusse faire."] Once an Algonquianist, always an Algonquianist, I guess! A pity he didn't essay to write down some of those words he could pronounce, not to mention some examples of Michigamea. After spending some time at Akamsea, the Expedition decided to return north, feeling ill-prepared to deal with hostile gun-armed people to the south, or th Europeans beyond them, and perhaps taking the hint that the Akamsea preferred that they not go further and open relations with the Akamseas' enemies to the south. It may be added that Marquette visted the Peoria and Kaskasia et al., coming and going and seems to have been familiar with Miami-Illinois, or perhaps a pidgin form of it. He says of the Illinois "They are divided into many villages, some of which are quite distant from that of which we speak, which is called peouarea [Peoria]. This causes some differences in their language, which on the whole resembles allegonquin, so that we easily understood each other." One presumes that his six languages includes at least Huron, Alleqonquin (Eastern Ojibwa), and perhaps Miami-Illinois, if he distinguished it from the former. The La Salle Expedition in 1686 used Guides from Cappa, the northernmost Quapaw (Akansea) village on the Mississippi to pass throught he hostile Michigamea lands to the Illinois villages on the Illinois River. In the 1750s Jean-Benard Bossu, while living among the Michigamea recorded two somewhat strangely translated sentences from weird contexts which he attributed one to a Michigamea man and the other to a group of Peoria men. Neither sentence is Miami-Illinois, apparently, but it is possible to interpret them as a sort of Siouan with approximately the senses he gives. More precisely, with several valuable suggestions from Bob Rankin I have deduced fairly mundane Siouan analyses of the highly colored examples Bossu offers. However, I wouldn't call the results Dhegiha, let alone Quapaw. They have points in common with both Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe, and some with other Siouan languages further afield, like Mandan. However, whatever it is, it stands alone. The main morphological oddity is that there appears to be a circumfixal negative construction *we-...=s (?), cf. Mandan wa-...=riN-x ~ wa-...=xi, though circumfixal negatives are also known from, e.g., Winnebago and Southeastern. In Mandan the choice of final element depends on the shape of the embedded stem. The final element *=s (?), is present once and missing once in the "Michigamea," which may be simple carelessness. The Mandan and Michigamea final elements are both perhaps comparable to Dhegiha =z^i NEG, Stoney/Assiniboine =s^i NEG, Dakotan =s^i 'adversative', Winnebago =z^i 'at least'. This *we-...=s negative pattern which I think to recognize in Michigamea should be compared to Dakotan =s^niN NEG (Stoney and Assiniboine =s^i), Dhegiha =z^i NEG, and IO =s^kuNni (later =skuNyi) NEG. Compare also Winnebago =s^guNniN 'weak dubitative' and (haN)ke ...=niN NEG. Even without the prefixal we- the Michigamea negative is not of a known pattern, though in my view it is reasonably comparable in form and could derive from the same complex of elements that appear variously combined in the attested Siouan negatives. The point here is that this hypothetical Michigamea negative is different from the negatives in known Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, so that it doesn't seem that Michigamea falls into any of these subgroups. I could make the same observation with regard to several other aspects of Michigamea, but perhaps this suffices for present purposes. To summarize, - "Michigamea" is reported to be a mysterious language other than Miami-Illinois in the 1670s and 1750s, even though there is by the c. 1700 also a somewhat distinctive Michigamea version of Miami-Illinois, too, as I understand it (Masthay 2002). - This mysterious "Michigamea" language might be Siouan, given the two sentence examples in Bossu. One would have to say, in fact, it is Siouan that it is Mississippi Valley Siouan. Since the morphology is in the range attested for MVS or the more MVS aspects of Mandan, but not Crow-Hidatsa or Southeastern. sTILL, it definitely isn't any of the attested MVS languages or even sub-branches. It is odd enough that it would be hard to call it either Dhegiha or Chiwere - the latter in the sense of a sub-branch containing Ioway-Otoe and maybe Winnebago. If one did, it would stretch the understanding of the sub-branch adopted very considerably. Apart from the somewhat weak linguistic evidence we can tell from all acounts of the Michigamea in the late 1600s that they are politically distinct from the Arkansas/Quapaw and also from the Illinois, even though both the Arkansas/Quapaw and Michigamea have some people among them who speak Miami-Illinois, and even though the Michigamea later merge quietly with the Illinois. Of course, who knows how bad Bossu's Michigamea was. Even taken as Siouan the presentation seems a bit less than fluent, though there's very little of it. Not really enough to judge certainly. There is no extant word list. If Bossu's grasp of the langauge was truely wretched, he might be trying to represent something better known in the Siouan way, e.g., one of the Dhegiha languages, even Ioway-Otoe, though probably not Miami-Illinois or Winnebago or Dakota or Mandan. However, I think the negative precludes this. Maybe he just made it up because he couldn't remember any real Miami-Illinois? But then why the ghostly resemblance to a Siouan language? Since some of the attested speakers are Peorias, maybe it's Peoria, not Michigamea, or Peroria-Michigamea? The last seems unlikely, as the Peoria were plainly speaking an Algonquian language to Marquette, though he records only placenames, personal names, and one line of a song. But then why does Bossu attribute half his Michigamea to Peoria speakers? Looking at the problem from another direction, what languages might Bossu have known and substituted for Michigamea? And why not Miami-Illinois? How could he have missed MI if it was being spoken around him as it presumably was and had something of the status of a lingua franca? If he chose to use a minority language spoken only by some Michigea, why supply only these two bizarre sample sentences and not a word list? Why not mention the minority status? Why no trace of distinctive Michigamea personal or place names? The whole subject is plagued with uncertainty, unfortunately. It occurs to me that we don't even really know if the two Michigamea groups - Marquette's and Bossu's - were the same. "Big water" is certainly a fairly generic name, and, e.g., it is also the gloss usually offered as a Siouan gloss for the otherwise unknown Moneton on the upper Ohio. As far as that goes, if the Ofo may have moved from the Ohio Valley to Arkansas by 1690, might not the Monetons have done so, too? Naturally, if Moneton was Siouan and if the 'big water' gloss of the ethnonym is correct, then any Moneton translator rendering the name into Mimai-Illinois would have come up with Michigamea without any qualms. However, our only real evidence of a Siouan identity for Marquette's non-MI Michigamea is Bossu's data, and so we are back to assuning the two are one, whether or not we accept the Michigamea as refugee Monetons. I discuss the Michigamea data briefly - with the full text of Bossu's examples and fairly pragmatic "translations" - at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Sep 21 13:52:55 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:52:55 +0000 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) From: "Bruce Ingham" Message-ID: Sorry for using the list for a personal matter, but could John please email me as I need to ask him a question Bruce From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Sep 21 16:40:47 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:40:47 +0000 Subject: call for John Koontz Message-ID: Sorry for using the list for a personal matter, but could John please email me as I need to ask him a question. Meaning John Koontz of course Bruce From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 13:20:03 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:20:03 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. Wheeler-Voegelin has suggested that these people were Shawnee, although there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support her belief. > Communications with these people were weak, perhaps by signs. They did > not understand Huron and spoke an unknown language. They reported trading > with Europeans to the east. They thought it worth reporting that their > trade contacts played musical instruments. I mention these people because > it shows the ethnic diversity of the sub-Ohio Mississippi in 1673. > > The next village, near the 33rd degree of latitude, was called Mitchigamea > [recognizably Miami-Illinois for big-water]. "At first we had to speak by > signs ['parler par gestes' in the parallel French version], because none > of them understood the six languages which I spoke. At last we found an > old man who could speak a little Ilinois. [In regard to the distance to > the sea] we obtained no other answer than that we could learn all that we > desired at another large village, called Akamsea, which was only 8 or 10 > leagues lower down. [They are accompanied there by their translator.] We > fortunately found there a young man who understood Ilinois much better > than did the interpeter whom we had brought from Mitchigamea." Presumably > the new translator was a native of Akamsea, which seems to have been Cappa > (Okaxpa or 'Downstream'). We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since Marquette writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. > > The Akamsea indicated that they traded through nations to the east of > them, or through an Illinois village four days to the west. This latter > village was apparently not the Mitchigamea village, which a day to the > north. > > A short description of the Akamsea follows including the comment "Their > language is exceedingly difficult, and I could succeed in pronouncing only > a few words notwithstanding all my efforts." ["Leur langue est > extremement difficile, et je ne pouvois venir about d'en prononcer > quelques mots, quelque effort que je pusse faire."] Once an Algonquianist, > always an Algonquianist, I guess! A pity he didn't essay to write down > some of those words he could pronounce, not to mention some examples of > Michigamea. > > After spending some time at Akamsea, the Expedition decided to return > north, feeling ill-prepared to deal with hostile gun-armed people to the > south, or th Europeans beyond them, and perhaps taking the hint that the > Akamsea preferred that they not go further and open relations with the > Akamseas' enemies to the south. > > It may be added that Marquette visted the Peoria and Kaskasia et al., > coming and going and seems to have been familiar with Miami-Illinois, or > perhaps a pidgin form of it. Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip to the Illinois, are nicely done. He says of the Illinois "They are divided > into many villages, some of which are quite distant from that of which we > speak, which is called peouarea [Peoria]. This causes some differences in > their language, which on the whole resembles allegonquin, so that we > easily understood each other." One presumes that his six languages > includes at least Huron, Alleqonquin (Eastern Ojibwa), and perhaps > Miami-Illinois, if he distinguished it from the former. It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. However, he travaled with refugee Hurons going back east along the Lake Superior coast, so it is possible he knew something of that language. Marquette began his language studies—-beginning with Montagnais—-on the very day he arrived at Quebec from France, 20 September 1666. He then went on to study Ojibwa at Trois Rivières under the master Jesuit linguist Gabriel Druillètes. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 13:29:13 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:29:13 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395203.4332af83d3f98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but does > > appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, Marquette's map reads . Sorry for the confusion. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:12:03 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:12:03 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395203.4332af83d3f98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since Marquette > writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. I assumed the variant was insignificant. I tried to stay with Thwaites' spellings in quoting him, and I think I tended to generalize Akamsea. Akansea is correct, of course. I did tend to gibe strongly as Thwaites' spelling Ilinois! > Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half > years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I > imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was > fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big > river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, > on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip > to the Illinois, are nicely done. So he probably distinguished Miami-Illinois from other Algonquian languages? > It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. Actually, that's a good point. Marquette doesn't say who spoke Huron. Given comments earlier on Jolliet knowing the languages needed for operations in French Canada - I forget exactly how this was phrased - it may have been he who spoke Huron. It would be interesting to know what the six languages Marguette meant were, but I think we can assume that none were Siouan, though he does seem to have spent some time with people at the Bay of the Puants, which may imply contact with the Winnebago. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:26:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:26:46 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395753.4332b1a91a6ba@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but > does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. > > Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, Marquette's > map reads . Sorry for the confusion. These are the folks that Swanton suggested might be the historical Ofo, partly on the grounds that *moso would become ofo in the course of regular Ofo sound shifts. This has been debated considerably. I think Bob Rankin and Ives Goddard are currently inclined to believe the association. Maybe there's something in the Moneton > Michigamea hypothesis after all, though my main reason for mentioning the Moneton was to exhibit another group with a similar name and thus to show that "big water" might occur several times independently. (So it would be especially awkward if the name *wasn't* independent.) Incidentally, although the Mo(n)so(u)pelea and Moneton are both reported as residents of the Ohio Valley, I think they are initially reported in rather different places. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:52:16 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:52:16 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: By the way, the hypothetical examples of Michigamea *we-...=s NEG are: ouaipanis *we- bni(N)-s NEG + I am + NEG 'I am not' houe'nigue' *we- ni(N)ge(- s) NEG + it lacks (+ NEG) 'it is not lacking' (in the sense 'it is satisfactory') Compare OP =bdhiN 'I am' < dhiN 'be (a kind)' and OP dhiNge' 'to lack'. Analogous OP forms might be bdhiN=m=az^i 'I am not' dhiNga=z^i 'it is not lacking' The roots and inflection are similar, but the negative morphology is different. It's possible final -s in ouaipanis is intended to be silent, in which case the negative might just be *we-..., although an entirely prefixal negative would be unusual in a Siouan language. Because of the nature of the translations Bossu offers, my specific glosses are uncertain in themselves. For example, I am proceding from indage' ouaipanis interpreted as 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' ('I am not worthy to live, I am no longer worthy to bear the sweet name of father') to indage' ouaipanis *iNdaj^e web(a)ni(s) rendered with fewer histrionics as 'I am not (his/a) father'. I then interpret the Michigamea words in that light. There's a lot in such a procedure for a skeptic to seize upon, of course. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:54:44 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:54:44 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395753.4332b1a91a6ba@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage > > but does appear to name them on his map: Mo(n)so(u)pelea. Out of curiosity, does he name the Miami-Illinois village four leagues west of the Akansea? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:26:53 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:26:53 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since > Marquette > > writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. > > I assumed the variant was insignificant. Indeed, it is, aside from not imputing the spelling to Marquette. That was point in responding to that point. I tried to stay with Thwaites' > spellings in quoting him, and I think I tended to generalize Akamsea. > Akansea is correct, of course. I did tend to gibe strongly as Thwaites' > spelling Ilinois! That is a strange one. Islinois is common historically, and Illinois, but "Ilinois," while certainly possible, is rare. > > > Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half > > years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I > > imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was > > fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big > > river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, > > on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip > > to the Illinois, are nicely done. > > So he probably distinguished Miami-Illinois from other Algonquian > languages? Oh, absolutely. He and Claude Allouez, confreres at Chequamegon on Lake Superior, are the first on record to hear the language. I'm pretty sure there is a Jesuit reference as to its being both Algonquian and weird (for their Algonquin-Ojibweyan-habituated ears). > > > It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. > > Actually, that's a good point. Marquette doesn't say who spoke Huron. Well, actually I would disagree with my own point, in that Marquette did try to communicate in Huron with the Mosopelea, to no avail. Given Marquette's known facility with languages, and the Jesuits' former extensive experience with Huron, as well as his contact with Huron refugees along Lake Superior (on their return from the upper Mississippi), he probably did have some ability in the language. > Given comments earlier on Jolliet knowing the languages needed for > operations in French Canada - I forget exactly how this was phrased - it > may have been he who spoke Huron. Now, on this I would disagree, as there is scant if any evidence besides hearsay that Jolliet had any ability. He had been around the block, to Sault Ste-Marie and environs, but a factor among French officials in choosing Jolliet for the Mississippi job was that Marquette would be going along to do the language part. It would be interesting to know what > the six languages Marguette meant were, I'm not sure anyone knows all six. I've always heard the "six languages" and that's it. But Montagnais, Ojibwa and Miami-Illinois. Huron could be the fourth, in light of the circumstantial evidence, and **dialect variants** of Algonquin-Ojibwa may have been the other two. That's three of them. but I think we can assume that > none were Siouan, though he does seem to have spent some time with people > at the Bay of the Puants, which may imply contact with the Winnebago. There weren't many Winnebago to speak of by the time he arrived, though. Just a thought. Michael > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:35:45 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are > later > > > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but > > does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. > > > > Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, > Marquette's > > map reads . Sorry for the confusion. > > These are the folks that Swanton suggested might be the historical Ofo, > partly on the grounds that *moso would become ofo in the course of regular > Ofo sound shifts. This has been debated considerably. I think Bob Rankin > and Ives Goddard are currently inclined to believe the association. That's interesting. That was Swanton's original claim, which I think had been shelved since we don't know Siouans archaeologically in the Ohio valley. What is the basis for the return to Swanton? > > Maybe there's something in the Moneton > Michigamea hypothesis after all, > though my main reason for mentioning the Moneton was to exhibit another > group with a similar name and thus to show that "big water" might occur > several times independently. (So it would be especially awkward if the > name *wasn't* independent.) > > Incidentally, although the Mo(n)so(u)pelea and Moneton are both reported > as residents of the Ohio Valley, I think they are initially reported in > rather different places. It seems "Moneton" was discussed either by the list or by you and Bob and I at some point. Someone discussed it! :) I *think* I remember that the spelling might be a twisted "Manitou"? The ethnonym surfaces during Gabriel Arthur's Ohio valley escapade in 1673. > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:47:43 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:43 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage > > > but does appear to name them on his map: Mo(n)so(u)pelea. > > Out of curiosity, does he name the Miami-Illinois village four leagues > west of the Akansea? > > > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look and get back to you. As an relevant aside, Campeau pointed out that Marquette's Narration and Marquette's map were intended to complement each other, which explains, for example, why, in his narration, he does not name the group he met just south of the Ohio, but on the map we see . Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 20:06:04 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:06:04 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127411263.4332ee3f53652@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm > confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to > be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look > and get back to you. I'm not sure the Akansea village south of the Michigamea is on the Arkansas. It is probably the Cappa [Okaxpa or Ogaxpa] village mentioned by the La Salle Expedition as being on the Mississippi north of the Arkansas ten years later in the 1680s. At that time it was the last village of the Akansea before the Michigamea, going north along the Mississippi. I think this village is called Akansea by Marquette because it is the first and only village of the Akansea people he encountered, proceding south from the Michigamea. The La Salle Expedition survivor account refers to two Akansea villages on the Arkansas and two more on the Mississippi itself, with Cappa being the northernmost of the latter. Dorsey later assembled more than four Quapaw or Arkansas village names - five? seven? I forget - of which my favorite has always been ImahaN 'Upstream', both because it provides a local foil for Okaxpa 'Downstream' and because the ImahaN later merged with the Caddo, which explains why they tend to get lost in Siouan historiography. Since Okaxpa 'Downstream' (= "Quapaw" < "Cappa, Quappa") is actually upstream on the Mississippi, relative to the rest of the villages, my suspicion is that it must have been named while located at the mouth of the Arkansas (or maybe even south of the Arkansas), while ImahaN was probably "up" along the course of the Arkansas. Of course, Okaxpa 'Downstream' tends to be interpreted in terms of position relative to the rest of the Dhegiha languages, especially the UmaNhaN or "Omaha" ['Upstream'] people, but, by the time that interpretation appears, all of the Quapaw villages but ImahaN had merged with Okaxpa, and the ImahaN had more or less disappeared into the Caddo. Since the only mentions of ImahaN are later, it's not clear that it existed yet in the late 1600s, or, if it did, it may have been overlooked, perhaps because it was merged temporarily with another village. As far as Marquette calling a particular Quapaw or Arkansas village Akansea, he earlier refers to the Peoria village mostly as the Illinois village. I was getting ready to give up on identifying it when he finally mentioned that it was specifically the village of the Peoria people. I believe that Marquette visited a number of Illinois villages, even without counting the Michigamea as Illinois, so maybe his calling Cappa "Akansea" has nothing to do with it being the first or only Akansea village he encountered. I thought it was interesting that the Marquette & Jolliet and La Salle Expeditions both seemed to distinguish the Michigamea from the Illinois. The La Salle Expedition survivors seem to have used Quapaw guides to get past the Michigamea without visiting them at all. The Quapaw were evidently on good terms with the Illinois, but not the Michigamea. This echoes the claim of Marquette that the Akansea were trading with an Illinois village to their west. The Mons8pelea aren't mentioned in the La Salle Expedition account, at least not in connection with going from Cappa to the Illinois. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 23 22:01:58 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:01:58 -0500 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) Message-ID: > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm > > > confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to > > > be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look > > > and get back to you. > > > > I'm not sure the Akansea village south of the Michigamea is on the > > Arkansas. > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas River. Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on the map: ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA MATORA | | AKOROA PAPiKAHA | | 8MAM8ETA TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA PANIASSA AiAiCHi Far to the east of the AKANSEA is APISTONGA > It is probably the Cappa [Okaxpa or Ogaxpa] village mentioned > > by the La Salle Expedition as being on the Mississippi north of the > > Arkansas ten years later in the 1680s. At that time it was the last > > village of the Akansea before the Michigamea, going north along the > > Mississippi. I think this village is called Akansea by Marquette because > > it is the first and only village of the Akansea people he encountered, > > proceding south from the Michigamea. > Remember that Marquette has both (Quapaw) and KANSA (Kaw) on his map. KANSA, however, is located up in the western Missouri River watershed group of ethnonyms on his map. > > > The La Salle Expedition survivor account refers to two Akansea villages on > > the Arkansas and two more on the Mississippi itself, with Cappa being the > > northernmost of the latter. Dorsey later assembled more than four Quapaw > > or Arkansas village names - five? seven? I forget - of which my favorite > > has always been ImahaN 'Upstream', both because it provides a local foil > > for Okaxpa 'Downstream' and because the ImahaN later merged with the > > Caddo, which explains why they tend to get lost in Siouan historiography. > > > > Since Okaxpa 'Downstream' (= "Quapaw" < "Cappa, Quappa") is actually > > upstream on the Mississippi, relative to the rest of the villages, my > > suspicion is that it must have been named while located at the mouth of > > the Arkansas (or maybe even south of the Arkansas), while ImahaN was > > probably "up" along the course of the Arkansas. > You don't suppose these could be Ohio valley names? > > > > > Of course, Okaxpa 'Downstream' tends to be interpreted in terms of > > position relative to the rest of the Dhegiha languages, especially the > > UmaNhaN or "Omaha" ['Upstream'] people, but, by the time that > > interpretation appears, all of the Quapaw villages but ImahaN had merged > > with Okaxpa, and the ImahaN had more or less disappeared into the Caddo. > > > > Since the only mentions of ImahaN are later, it's not clear that it > > existed yet in the late 1600s, or, if it did, it may have been overlooked, > > perhaps because it was merged temporarily with another village. > > > > As far as Marquette calling a particular Quapaw or Arkansas village > > Akansea, he earlier refers to the Peoria village mostly as the Illinois > > village. I was getting ready to give up on identifying it when he finally > > mentioned that it was specifically the village of the Peoria people. > Yes. He points it out specifically on his map. > I > > believe that Marquette visited a number of Illinois villages, even without > > counting the Michigamea as Illinois, so maybe his calling Cappa "Akansea" > > has nothing to do with it being the first or only Akansea village he > > encountered. > After leaving the Miami-Mascouten town on the upper Fox River, Marquette and Co. visited only two **Miami-Illinois-speaking** villages--Peoria, on the Des Moines River north of Wayland in Clark County, Missouri, on the outbound trip and the Kaskaskia on the upper Illinois River on the return trip. That was it. Apparently "METCHiGAMEA" was not Miami-Illinois-speaking. In fact, Marquette expressed the exploration team's amazement at not finding any sign of people at all between the time two Miami guides left the Frenchmen at the Fox River/Wisconsin River portage and until the Frenchmen found footprints at the Mississippi's edge at the mouth of the Des Moines River. They would have taken this break at the mouth of the Des Moines, since they'd just naviagated miles of rapids at that point on the Mississippi. When they found the footprints, Marquette and Jolliet left the five other Frenchmen at the Mississippi with the canoes and walked up the Des Moines until they came upon the Peoria. Marquette says that they walked right up to the first village without anyone's even noticing them, but then decided, at the last minute, that they'd better announce their arrival. Larry Grantham has excavated the Peoria sites--there are two of them, mentioned as such by Marquette. See Grantham, Larry. “The Illinois Village of the Marquette and Jolliet Voyage of 1673.” The Missouri Archaeologist 54 (1993): 1-20. Very interesting article. > > > > > I thought it was interesting that the Marquette & Jolliet and La Salle > > Expeditions both seemed to distinguish the Michigamea from the Illinois. > > The La Salle Expedition survivors seem to have used Quapaw guides to get > > past the Michigamea without visiting them at all. The Quapaw were > > evidently on good terms with the Illinois, but not the Michigamea. This > > echoes the claim of Marquette that the Akansea were trading with an > > Illinois village to their west. The Mons8pelea aren't mentioned in the La > > Salle Expedition account, at least not in connection with going from Cappa > > to the Illinois. > > > > La Salle met *a* Mosopelea at some point in his excursions. I can find that citation, John, if you would like. My question about the Metchagamia is how come, even though by around 1700 there are terms identified by the Jesuits as coming from the Metchagamia dialect of Miami-Illinois that are quite Algonquian, we have a village called "METCHIGAMEA" in the July of 1673 where only one person speaks Miami-Illinois. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 23 23:04:29 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:04:29 -0600 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127512918.43347b56bf944@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas River. > > Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river > itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on the map: > > ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA > > MATORA | | > AKOROA > PAPiKAHA | | > 8MAM8ETA > TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA > > > PANIASSA AiAiCHi Oh, of course. This is the list Bob Rankin discusses in identifying the De Soto Expedition's Pakaha/Capaka as Papikaha and thus probably as Tunica. I'll have to go back and look at the LaSalle 1686 list, because I don't recall them mentioning any of these places, which I think are mostly identified as Tunican. And this makes it seem that there was only one Akansea village in 1673. > Remember that Marquette has both (Quapaw) and KANSA (Kaw) on his > map. KANSA, however, is located up in the western Missouri River watershed > group of ethnonyms on his map. Yep, so the Kansa and Arkansas [Akansea] a/k/a Quapaw [Okaxpa] are as distinct in 1673 as in 1873 or 1973, whatever the etymological connection between the names. > You don't suppose these [up and downstream names] could be Ohio valley > names? One can't tell what stream is relevant from the names. > After leaving the Miami-Mascouten town on the upper Fox River, Marquette > and Co. visited only two **Miami-Illinois-speaking** villages--Peoria, > on the Des Moines River north of Wayland in Clark County, Missouri, on > the outbound trip and the Kaskaskia on the upper Illinois River on the > return trip. That was it. Apparently "METCHiGAMEA" was not > Miami-Illinois-speaking. > La Salle met *a* Mosopelea at some point in his excursions. I can find that > citation, John, if you would like. Sure, if it's easy. > My question about the Metchagamia is how come, even though by around > 1700 there are terms identified by the Jesuits as coming from the > Metchagamia dialect of Miami-Illinois that are quite Algonquian, we have > a village called "METCHIGAMEA" in the July of 1673 where only one person > speaks Miami-Illinois. This split personality situation is a mystery to me, and one reason I am leery of the Bossu materials. It is also the reason I got to wondering suddenly last week if there were two different "Big Water" peoples, especially as I had just thought of the Moniton in this connection, too. Let's consider the question of whether there is any Michigamea/Moniton connection as separate. The initial linguistic issues would make perfect sense if the Marquette 1673/La Salle 1686 period Michigamea were one group, and the group (near the Kaskaskia?) in 1700 and thereafter were another. The first, non-MI group would simply have disappeared. Their name would be recorded in MI form because it was obtained from MI speakers (bilinguals, apparently) living among the Michigamea and Akansea. The later MI Michigamea would be a slightly later offshoot of one the early attested Illinois groups or a homonymous Illinois group extant earlier not reported earlier. Unfortunately, that awkward Bossu data comes from the latter group, I think, and there is a clear continuity between the 1700 (1708?) village the early Jesuits knew and the 1750s village Bossu spent time in. It's certainly tempting to think of the Bossu data as explaining Marquette's experience. To fit the three bits together we could assume that sometime not long after 1686 the Michigamea became allied with the Illinois - perhaps due to a military defeat or an epidemic - and began a rapid process of assimilation to them. We would have to assume that as a result, some 20 years later fluent MI speakers were easy to find among the Michigamea, which is not too hard to believe. That's a span of about a generation. What is a bit hard to believe is that that 70 years after LaSalle (50 years - two more generations - after fluent MI speakers became common) you could still find speakers comfortable enough with the original Michigamea language that they would teach it to visitors in preference to MI. We would also have to assume that the Jesuits on the one hand, and Bossu on the other, simply failed to notice - or at least mention - this bilinguality, and that Bossu went to so far as to put Michigamea into the mouths of the Peoria. Or perhaps some Peoria actually knew the language and used it in his presence, which seems less likely. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that Bossu made up his examples for some reason. In other words, there were two "Big Water" groups, or, if only one, its assimilation to the Illinois was most likely completed early on, before Bossu came on the scene, so that Bossu would have had no exposure to the original Michigamea language. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 25 17:52:14 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:52:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas > River. > > > > Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river > > itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on > the map: > > > > ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA > > > > MATORA | | > > AKOROA > > PAPiKAHA | | > > 8MAM8ETA > > TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA > > > > > > PANIASSA AiAiCHi > > Oh, of course. This is the list Bob Rankin discusses in identifying the > De Soto Expedition's Pakaha/Capaka as Papikaha and thus probably as > Tunica. Do you have the citation for Bob's work? I'll have to go back and look at the LaSalle 1686 list, because I > don't recall them mentioning any of these places, which I think are mostly > identified as Tunican. And this makes it seem that there was only one > Akansea village in 1673. Delanglez did a very good treatment of the La Salle expedition of 1682. Delanglez went off the track in importants respects with the Marquette material (errors later corrected by Campeau), but he did fine and important work on La Salle. From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Wed Sep 28 19:49:25 2005 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:49:25 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING In-Reply-To: <004a01c5b801$52620200$6c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Jimm, Quick reply. EMELD is an excellent set of practices (you can read about them on the E-MELD web site - you can google it). I recomment it. They'll probably have other workshops. Write them to get on a list to be notified about them. Write to Helen Dry (hdry@ LinguistList.org, I think is the address). Louanna >I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was >an E-MELD conference for the purpose of standardizing the >documentation of languages, especially endangered languages. >Many people are all ready well into the composing of their >particular language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a >number of standards, called "best practices", which includes >writting all dictionaries, and other language work using unicode >fonts. >The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem >of corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC >system to another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents >etc. that one writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the >same will be received and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was >exactly written at the source of origin.PC person Of course, that >will happen now when any PC shares the same fonts as the sender. >Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My >initial Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was >written with a Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an >antique system. Those records composed on the Tandy can no longer >be read by my present PC. Fortunately, I had already converted them >to a higher windows version, Yet, in some cases, accents and >several special fonts where mutated irregardless. >What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary >work and may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over >again in the Unicode fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations >imposing their national language on the minority languages, Tagalog, >English, Japanese, et.al., on the individual Filipino, the Native >American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or the Ainu. The plan for >a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the course for the >minority community language to become an endangered language, and >with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps >it is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, >especially those who have had to already go back into their >documents and reedit the whole work. >Jimm -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 29 14:37:29 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:37:29 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity Message-ID: Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 15:08:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:08:21 -0700 Subject: paduka identity Message-ID: I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did not mean 'slave' in Miami-Illinois. Morever, the 'Patoka' were not a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic) group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the high plains. The Miami name for the Comanche is paatoohka, the Shawnee name for them is paatohka, and the Fox name for them is paatoohka(aha). This term has no etymology in Algonquian. Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the discussion of the term in HNAI 13. David ---------- From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" To: "Siouan List" Subject: Fw: paduka identity Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 29 15:42:57 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <009e01c5c503$517234a0$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the > Patoka/Paduca The name originally and most commonly meant the Plains Apaches, and later (19c.) occasionally the Comanches. (Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 903). The English name is < Fr Padouca (cf. quot. 1718), prob. < a Siouan (presumably Dhegiha) name; cf. Osage hpatoNkka, Omaha Ponca ppatoNkka. (based on e-mail from Robt. Rankin & John Koontz, March 1999, and on F. W. HODGE Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 328 9). "Pawnee" was often used in the sense of an Indian captured by other Indians and sold into slavery among white settlers, but I haven't seen Paduka used that way. Alan Hartley From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 29 15:53:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:53:06 -0500 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There were people with this name as a last name at Kaskaskia, e.g., , a person on one of the 18th-century Detroit Jesuit missionary Pierre Potier's rosters of people living at Detroit whose name was , and, according to a hear-say I'm still tracking, there was a Wabash Valley Kickapoo leader known by this name. One or none of these may be connected to "Patoka River," a relatively good sized eastern tributary of the southern Wabash, the name for which appears to be unattested in the French sources. I imagine the "slave" folk definition came from the notion that Comanches were sometimes traded into the Miami-Illinois slave network. But I don't know. Michael Quoting David Costa : > I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did not mean 'slave' in > Miami-Illinois. > > Morever, the 'Patoka' were not a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the > term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic) > group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North > American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it > was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the > Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the > high plains. > > The Miami name for the Comanche is paatoohka, the Shawnee name for them is > paatohka, and the Fox name for them is paatoohka(aha). This term has no > etymology in Algonquian. Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It > is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at > this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and > etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the > discussion of the term in HNAI 13. > > David > > > ---------- > From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" > To: "Siouan List" > Subject: Fw: paduka identity > Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am > > > Aloha All, > Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the > Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La > Flesche source. > Mahalo! > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry Haglan > To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: paduka identity > > mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that > when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the > term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old > Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the > meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark > thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde > article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be > the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know > for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a > screenplay. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland > To: Barry Haglan > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: paduka identity > > Barry, > the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are > a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great > Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are > classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan > > This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I > cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley > appearance or the "slave" aspect. > > In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca > are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their > buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until > a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for > peace. > > Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, > and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry Haglan > To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM > Subject: paduka identity > > dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, > told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the > Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in > Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh > genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only > thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds > like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 29 17:09:12 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:09:12 -0600 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <1128009186.433c0de2714ea@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > There were people with this name as a last name at Kaskaskia, e.g., > , a person on one of the 18th-century Detroit Jesuit > missionary Pierre Potier's rosters of people living at Detroit whose > name was , and, according to a hear-say I'm still tracking, > there was a Wabash Valley Kickapoo leader known by this name. One or > none of these may be connected to "Patoka River," a relatively good > sized eastern tributary of the southern Wabash, the name for which > appears to be unattested in the French sources. There are similar references to Padouca as a surname in the various collections of papers on Spanish Missouri. There are nearly cognate, but probably borrowed, forms of *hpatohka ~ *hpatuNhka (or *hpataNhka ?) in Mississippi Valley Siouan (sans Dakota). In some cases the ethnic gloss is fairly vague. Comanche is the usual specific modern gloss and the ethnohistorical consensus seems to be that it earlier referred to the Plains Apache. The Comanche replaced the Plains Apache over their western plains range in the 1700s, and by the 1800s indigenous recollections of the Apache per se had disappeared, while the nature of the references in the early literature are sometimes vexed. However, the Spanish evidence makes it clear that various varieties of Apaches and perhaps others (including the Kiowa, one assumes) were replaced in the Texas Panhandle to eastern Colorado stretch in the 1700s by the Comanche. Essentially the term means 'foreigners from the western plains and those who have similar cultures' just as variants on *hpariN ~ *hpaRariN "Pawnee" means 'foreigners from the southern plains and those who have similar cultures'. There might well be some underlying linguistic appreciation of both terms, though clearly the Padouca shift from Athabascan Apaches and other to Numic (Uto-Aztecan) Comanches. I think Pani-terms are sometimes found applied to some of the Caddo as well as to the Northern Caddoan groups. It is tempting to identify the first element in these names as *hpa 'head', and the *doNhka variant of the second part of Padouca may mean 'stubby, rounded', while the *riN ~ *RariN second part of Pawnee resembles terms for tobacco. However, I'd have to say that we don't really understand the etymology or even the propagation process for either term. The similarity of the initials may be spurious, and the variants for Padouca suggest folk etymology at work busily making sense of the senseless. I've run into people who claim Padouca is from English "paddock," but I don't believe it myself! There is also a proposal that Pani as "slave" is at least partly derived from Saponey which seems much more potentially interesting, though I'm not sure the evidence is there. In that case "Pani" as an ethnonym might even be from Saponey, though it might still be a case of accidental honophony. (I can look up the names of the individuals in question if desired.) History has a certain number of cases of ethnic names developing into terms for "slave" or acquiring other low prestige significations and the reverse (barbaros > Berber?). I think "slave" may actually be an example of this, if it's from S(k)lavos "Slav," though I'm not sure I'm current on that debate. I suspect in this particular case Padouca is being confused with Pani as a term for "slave." I think by the time the spelling Pawnee was current this association was a thing of the past. The early trade (pre 1800?) in native North Americans as slaves tends to be overlooked, I think. I don't know how extensive it was, but I keep running into passing references to it. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 17:09:00 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:09:00 -0700 Subject: Fw: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <009e01c5c503$517234a0$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark, The following information may helpful or add more questions, since I have found sources that identify the Padouca or Paducah Indians as being Plains Apache, Comanche, Caddo, and a sub-tribe of Chickasaw. I find all of it interesting. Jonathan 1. In the book published in 1988 titled "The Pawnee Indians" by George E. Hyde (Volume 128 in the The Civilization of the American Indian Series - ISBN: 0-8061-2094-0) there is a section of the Appendix that talks about the Padouca Indians, as noted by the following quote from a review of the book..."One item of special interest is the section of the appendix discussing the true identity of the Padouca Indians so often mentioned in early French accounts." - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. I do not know what it says, as I do not have the book in my library. However, perhaps you could track it down. 2. According to Antoine-Simon Le Page du Pratz in his work titled, “A Map of Louisiana, with the course of the Missisipi” in The History of Louisiana, or of the western parts of Virginia and Carolina. London, 1763, he presents the first published account of Etienne Veniard de Bourgmont’s expedition to the Padouca Indians, or Plains Apaches, in 1724. See: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/lewis_clark/exploring/ch4-22.html 3. Transcribed from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward. "Jackson County, Kansas is one of the counties formed by the first territorial legislature in 1855, is located in the second tier south from Nebraska, and the second west from Missouri. It is bounded on the west by Pottawatomie county, on the south by Wabaunsee and Shawnee, on the east by Jefferson and Atchison, and on the north by Nemaha and Brown. It is 1,172 feet above the level of the sea. The first exploration in the regions that afterward became Jackson county was by M. De Bourgmont and his company of Frenchmen who made a journey in 1724 through the lands of the Kansas to the Padouca Indians. He passed through Jackson county in going from a point above Atchison to the Kansas river just west of Shawnee county." See: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/j/jackson_county.html 4. "In 1719 the Comanche are mentioned under their Siouan name of Padouca as living in what now is west Kansas. It must he remembered that from 500 to 800 miles was an ordinary range for a prairie tribe and that the Comanche were equally at home on the Platte and in the Bolson de Mapimi of Chihuahua. As late as 1805 the North Platte was still known as Padouca fork. At that time they roamed over the country about the heads of tile Arkansas, Red, Trinity, and Brazos rivers, in Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas." See: http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/comanche/comanchehist.htm 5. "The Comanche belonged to the Shoshonean linguistic family, a branch of Uto-Aztecan, its tongue being almost identical with that of the Shoshoni....Padouca, common early name, evidently from the name of the Penateka band." See: http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/texas/comancheindianhistory.htm 6. Early Topeka Historical Outline. See: http://www.christian-oneness.org/topeka/histout.html Native American Period, ? to 1825 Native peoples before 17th Century appear to have been Caddoan, "black" Indians, the Padouca. Kansa Indians arrived mid-17th Century. The Padoucas appear to first have been driven to the west end of the Kansa’s new range, where they were pressed against the Pawnee (a "black" Apache people). By 1800, the Padouca had been largely assimilated into the Kansa and Pawnee. Kansa are a Dhegiha Sioux people, a "white" Native American tribe likely originally from area of present inland North Carolina, more or less. Migrated due to pressure from English settlements. Prior to arriving at destination, were once one people with the Omahas; these groups diverged late in their migration. Also related culturally, linguistically and genetically to the Osages, Poncas, Qapaws and Missouria. 7. "The City of Paducah, Kentucky is situated on the southern bank of the Ohio River in the north central portion of McCracken County. Now the county seat of McCracken County, Paducah owes its humble start to General George Rogers Clark, the famous Revolutionary War hero and older brother to William (of Lewis and Clark fame). Clark claimed 37,000 acres at the mouth of Tennessee River in 1795. After a land dispute with a local family, the U.S. Supreme Court granted the land in question to Clark, who promptly platted a town at the northernmost point of what is now the Tennesse Tombigbee Waterway. General Clark named the town Paducah in honor of the Padouca Indians, a peaceful subtribe of Chickasaws." See: http://www.kentucky-real-estates.com/paducah-homes-for-sale/cityprofile.htm 8. From the Journals of de Bourgmont, See: http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0112_00.html The Journals of de Bourgmont Éttienne de Veniard, sieur de Bourgmont was the first known white man to systematically explore the Missouri River basin and was the first to record his findings. After leaving France a convicted juvenile delinquent, Bourgmont settled in Canada and joined the military. When an Indian attack on Fort Pontchartrain (near modern day Detroit) damaged Bourgmont's reputation, the acting commander escaped to the wilderness. He lived with Indians for years at a time and became a notorious and powerful figure among the them, eventually becoming the king's personal envoy to the tribes that complicated France's desire for western expansion. The following journal entries chronicle Bourgmont's expedition to negotiate peace between and among the French, Pawnee, Oto, Kansa, and Padouca (or Plains Apache) Native American tribes. 9. From the Paducah, Kentucky History prepared by Professor John E.L. Robertson states: "The birthplace of Paducah at the confluence of the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers is just 12 miles below the Cumberland River and 25 miles above the broad Mississippi. Paducah is rightfully called the "River City." It 1779 George Rogers Clark's small army landed on the Illinois shore just below the site of Paducah to attack British posts in Illinois. With only 150 men Clark captured for Virginia [and the emerging United States] all territory north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi to the Appalachian Mountains. This feat was the greatest victory of any American commander in the Revolution. Clark noted the site of Paducah as a good location for a town at a later date. In 1795 Clark purchased a Treasury Warrant from Virginia and located a claim on the Ohio and along the Tennessee in an attempt to recoup his personal finances; however, hostility of the Chickasaw prevented any further development during his lifetime. President James Monroe purchased the land between the Tennessee and the Mississippi rivers in what is now Kentucky and Tennessee from the Chickasaw in 1818. Isaac Shelby of Kentucky and Andrew Jackson of Tennessee represented the United States in these negotiations. Shelby was ill most of the time so Jackson did much of the work. In recognition, the treaty is known locally as the Jackson Purchase. The Senate ratified the treaty in 1819 but settlement was delayed due to a boundary dispute with Tennessee and to a deep depression that discouraged Kentuckians. Tennessee pushed ahead to open the Purchase area so that they could exploit what is now Memphis. Kentucky did not sell land beyond the Tennessee River until 1821. However, prior claims under Virginia were recorded. In fact,! two families claimed what is now Paducah. The Porterfield claim was based on a military warrant that normally took precedent over treasury warrants such as that of the Clark claim that now was held by Willliam Clark [of Lewis and Clark fame]. It took a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1844 to resolve the dispute. In the meantime, William Clark took up the establishment of a town at the mouth of the Tennessee River. On April 27, 1827, William Clark wrote a letter to his son, Meriwether Lewis Clark, announcing that he was leaving St. Louis for the mouth of the Tennessee River to found a town that was to be named for the Pa-du-cah [a change in spelling from the French Padouca.] This tribe was "once the largest nation of Indians known in this country, and now almost forgotten." Enemies of the Padoucas received arms from France, Spain, and Great Britain and reduced the once proud people to slaves. William wished to perpetuate the memory of this gallant people corrupted by contact with! European civilization and made certain that people could pronounce the name by using the English spelling." See: http://www.paducahky.com/history.html 10. Lastly, comes the following two reviews of George Bird Grinnell's paper: See: http://www.publicanthropology.org/Archive/Aa1920.htm Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were The Padouca? American Anthropologist 1920 Vol.22: 248-260. George Bird Grinnell’s objective in this article is to examine historical documents in hopes of determining the true identity of the Padouca. Grinnell identifies the Padouca as indigenous peoples who lived in the "central plains from the Black Hills region south to the Arkansas or beyond" (1920:248). For Grinnell, the primary question is whether or not the Padouca peoples are the same as the Comanche peoples recorded in these documents. He provides an extensive list of historical accounts from Spanish and French expeditions during the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century, which mention the Padouca or indigenous groups living around the area outlined above. However these accounts do not correspond, primarily due to conflicting names and areas. For example Grinnell refers to old maps that contain the word Padouca located in slightly different locations, as well as records from the expeditions of Lewis and Clark in the early nineteenth century that record names that ! they only interpret as representing the Padouca. In addition, Grinnell concludes based upon the majority of the documents that the Padouca most likely have lived in sedentary villages, while the Comanche are not recorded to have had permanent dwellings or to have been agriculturalists. Yet the author insightfully acknowledges that much of this information is composed of statements reported second hand, and therefore "generally must not be taken too literally" (1920:253). After reviewing these various sources, Grinnell finds no reasonable basis to assume that the Padouca were in fact the Comanche, and surprisingly states therefore they must be regarded as Apache. I feel Grinnell falls short in this additional conclusion as there does not appear enough documentation provided in order to make such an assumption. Grinnell provides numerable documents to support this conclusion, however it is somewhat difficult to keep track of all the various expeditions and exactly where the various ind! igenous groups were thought to have lived. CLARITY: 4 JAIME HOLTHUYSEN University of British Columbia, Vancouver, (John Barker) Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were the Padouca? American Anthropologist, 1920 Vol.22: 248-260. This article is mainly concerned with finding out which North American Native group is the most likely candidate for the Padouca, a name that has long since been obsolete. The only remnants of this name come from eighteenth-century maps of the central plains region and early accounts by explorers and inhabitants of the area and its surroundings. Some regard the Padouca as the Comanche, the Cataka, or the Apache, among others. The Comanche, amongst them all, are thought most often to be the Padouca. Grinnell spends a great portion of his article trying to refute this claim. He reports that a Frenchman by the name of Bourgmont, who was passing the area that is said to be where the Padouca resided, noted that the group of people living in this area lived in houses for most of the year and also had some sort of agriculture. This is contrary to the Comanche, as told by the Pawnees, who did not live in permanent or semi-permanent houses or engage in agriculture.The great American explorers Lewis and Clark believed that the Padouca were actually the Cataka. Grinnell simply invalidates this claim by stating that Lewis and Clark received most of their information of the plains Indians second-hand by other Indians and men who had been around the area. Since they did not see themselves, then there can be no factual basis for their claim. In the mind of the author, the most likely candidate for the Pado! uca are the Apache. He states that the Apache, like the Padouca, had the same kind of living arrangements; semi-permanent to permanent housing with agricultural means of survival. At the very end of the article, Grinnell states that there is no definite evidence of the actual identity of the Padouca, but he is convinced that the Apache, not the Comanche, are the winners. CLARITY RANKING: 2 ZANETA L. MARTINEZ University of Texas at San Antonio (James H. McDonald) Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 29 17:28:25 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:28:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity Message-ID: Aloha all, Thanks for the rapid and quite detailed responses to the Paduka inquiry. I have forwarded those messages not already sent to Barry. Mahalo nui, Mark Awakuni-Swetland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 29 17:44:49 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:44:49 -0500 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I think "slave" may actually be an example > of this, if it's from S(k)lavos "Slav," It is: see the good etymology article from the Amer. Heritage Dict. at http://www.bartleby.com/61/62/S0466200.html Alan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 13:10:06 2005 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:10:06 +0100 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <433C2811.3010709@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Since Willem deReuse's interesting paper at our last conference about morphological resemblances between Siouan and Athabaskan, I'm becoming interested in resemblances between Lakota and Cree. Obviously (I suppose) any resemblances there are would be the result of contact or linguistic diffusion and not cognates. One feature that I note is that both have, though not to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. My La Flesche volume on Omaha is not very clear on the point. My Ojibway does not reveal such a system and my English-Crow dictionary is not clear on the point. So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or interrogative-indefinites? Yours Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Sep 30 13:45:18 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:45:18 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <20050930131006.48283.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting shokooh Ingham : > Dear Siouanists > Since Willem deReuse's interesting paper at our last > conference about morphological resemblances between > Siouan and Athabaskan, I'm becoming interested in > resemblances between Lakota and Cree. Obviously (I > suppose) any resemblances there are would be the > result of contact or linguistic diffusion and not > cognates. One feature that I note is that both have, > though not to the same extent, the phenomenon of > interrogative-indefinites. (...)> Thank you Bruce. As everyone realizes, I am sure, my Siouan-Athabascan paper was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, to show the ways in which superficial comparison can always yield some intriguing results. As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Sep 30 17:32:08 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:32:08 +0200 Subject: interrogative -indefinites Message-ID: > (Willem): As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} << This phenomenon even exists in good old (esp. vernacular) German: "Was sagst du da?" (What are you saying here?) vs. "Ich sag' dir was." (I tell you something). "Wo warst du denn?" (Where have you been?) vs. "Ich bin wo gewesen, wo's sehr schön war." (I was somewhere where it's been very nice) etc. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 30 19:33:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:33:47 -0600 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <20050930131006.48283.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, shokooh Ingham wrote: > One feature that I note is that (Dakota and Cree) both have, though not > to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. > Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku > 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan > 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota > and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the > interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. > ... So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. > Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or > interrogative-indefinites? Hopefully the Caddoanists and Algonquianists on the list can clarify the extent to which this pattern occurs elsewhere in those families. In Mississipppi Valley Siouan I believe the pattern is universal. I'd be going out on a limb without looking to extend this to Crow-Hidatsa, Mandan, and Southeastern. However, the *ta- (and/or *to-) morpheme is not always the base for interrogative/indefinites. It does occur outside of Dakotan, cf. Winnebago j^aagu' 'what' (j^aa- < *ta) or Omaha da'daN 'what' (da- < *ta-), but other interrogative/indefinite bases occur. (I think *pe for 'who/someone' is pan-Siouan.) The alternative to *ta-/*to- in Dhegiha is *(h)a-, cf. OP a'naN 'how many/some number', or a'gudi 'where/somewhere'. (The *h surfaces in Osage, Kaw, and Quapaw. The same rare initial pattern occurs with *(h)aNp- 'day', incidentally.) The OP a- forms are opposed to awa(N)- which is something like 'which of two'. I don't recall if this latter set have indefinite uses, but I'd expect them to. Not all a- forms match awaN- forms. In fact, I think the lists are somewhat skewed and essentially non-productive, though, since they often include definite articles and postpositions, the lists are long. I'm thinking of forms like athedi/awaNthedi 'where/which place of two'. Some question words look like they might be derived from standard demonstrative forms, e.g., OP e?aN 'how' or eattaN - something like 'what [unfortunate]'. I think that these may involve focus constructions historically, cf. French qu'est-ce que. In other words, e?aN is 'how is it that ...'. There are some diffferences in interrogative/indefinite usage. I think that of the alternatives dadaN/edadaN/iNdadaN for 'what' the first is more likely to be indefinite. Also, I think there are some similar differences for accent in e'be/ebe' 'who'. I haven't noticed any similar patterns for other forms, though there are some low frequency, speaker-restricted uses of ?aN as 'how'. (Perhaps a limited sort of dialect variation?) Dorsey's texts are a nice place to look for differences in distribution. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Fri Sep 30 20:01:16 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:01:16 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While we're on the subject, I found and interesting contrast between Lakota and Assiniboine with these words. Lakota makes a realized/potential distinction, thus:'taku/ta'kul, as in: 'taku icu he 'what did he take?' vs. ta'kul icukta he 'what will he take' Assiniboine doesn't have that distinction but makes a distinction between non-specific-indefinite and specific-indefinite, thus: 'taku/ta'kux, as in 'taku eyaku he 'what did he take?' vs. ta'kux 'eyaku he 'what, specifically, did he take?' and 'taku 'eyakukta he' what will he take' and ta'kux eyakukta he 'what, specifically, will he take?' There are also the pairs, tuwe/tuwex and tukte/tuktex, but not tona: *tonax Linda > On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, shokooh Ingham wrote: > > One feature that I note is that (Dakota and Cree) both have, though not > > to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. > > Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku > > 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan > > 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota > > and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the > > interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. > > ... So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. > > Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or > > interrogative-indefinites? > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Sep 30 20:23:02 2005 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:23:02 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites Message-ID: Yes, and in Slavic too, and I believe in Japanese (?) and even in the probably Yiddish-influenced English of many of the people I grew up with (You've got what to eat? i.e. do you have something to eat, when sending someone off on an outing where they might want to take a snack along) * this doesn't make it any less interesting, however! On the contrary, something this widespread is obviously a deep and significant phenomenon; not something that just happened to occur in one language, but something that's happened over and over in the history of human languages. Catherine >>> ti at fa-kuan.muc.de 9/30/2005 12:32 PM >>> > (Willem): As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} << This phenomenon even exists in good old (esp. vernacular) German: "Was sagst du da?" (What are you saying here?) vs. "Ich sag' dir was." (I tell you something). "Wo warst du denn?" (Where have you been?) vs. "Ich bin wo gewesen, wo's sehr schön war." (I was somewhere where it's been very nice) etc. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 1 19:45:53 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:45:53 -0600 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: Being laid up with tendonitis I've had an opportunity to read some things I wouldn't ordinarily get to, and noticed a few points of interest in Paul Proulx's article on Algonquian reduplication in IJAL 71.2. 1) Proto-Algonquian distinguishes two types of sandhi - [proto-Algonquian] inter-word insertion of *h. - within-word insertion of *y. The first of these appears to be a discovery (or recent reinvestigation?) of Dahlstrom (1997), exemplified in reduplication in Fox in net- es^a= h- es^awi 1s.subj reduplicator sandhi do.thus 'I do thus' This pair reminds me of the Siouan tendency to - CV1-V2CV => C-V2CV on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but with morphologized expamples of - insertion of *r intervocalically in contexts such as combinations of locatives, the morphology of the causative, and so on. There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. Carter has used this to explain some glottal stops in Mandan and has suggested that it might also ultimately account for ejectives generally, e.g., via a mechanism like CV1-?-V2 => C?-V2. For example (mine of the moment, not necessarily Carter's) te-e die + DECL might lead to t?e. Similarly, it has been suggested somewhere - by Carter and/or Shaw, I think - that declarative =? in some Dakotan dialects might have this sort of source. 2) In connection with the former, Proulx notes that "In Shawnee, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe, words which otherwise would be vowel-initial are written with initial *h*. However, many linguists prefer not to write an initial aspiration as long as it remains automatic, regarding it as sufficiently signalled by the space left between words ... For example, Bloomfield (1962:3) states that in Menominee "initial vowels often have an on-glide resembling *h*" which he does not write. Similarly, in my description of Micmac inflection I wrote "there is nondistinctive aspiration between (two) vowels, and before vowels in utterance initial position." I too did not write it initially, though I did word-internally (Proulx 1978:5). "These facts suggest the hypothesis that Proto-Algonquian may have had predictable aspiration of a vowel-initial word. In some daughter languages aspiration renains predictable (e.g., Menominee). In some it may have been lost (e.g., Fox), and in some it changed to a glottal stop (e.g., Potawatomi). Reduplication with external sandhi inserts this word-initial *h* at the [proto-Algonquian] word boundary between a reduplicator prefix and a vowel-initial stem." A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? While h-linkage is not attested in Siouan that I am aware of, I thought that the presence of automatic initial aspiration in Menominee was interesting in light of the anomalous initial aspiration of verbs (locatives and first persons) in Winnebago. This aspiration, and the presence of initial h with Ioway-Otoe first persons, has always puzzled me, in the sense that I couldn't entirely predict when it occurred. For example, Wi ha-, IO ha-, OP a-, Da wa- for first person agent is not a regular correspondence, though the initial do hold across essentially all first person pronominals, e.g., Wi hiN-, IO hiN-, OP aN- (dative iN-), Da maN- (reflexive possessive miN-) for the patient forms. Winnebago has nouns without h-, e.g., aa 'arm', aap 'leaf', ii 'mouth', ii 'lid', and demonstratives ee 'the aforesaid'. Also adverbs, e.g., aaki' 'on or at both ends or sides', and verbs, aaghi' 'be ready', aaz^(=)re 'be open'. The verbs considered to be *?-initial lack h, e.g., iNiN 'wear over the shoulders' and uNuN 'do; make; wear'. In fact, mainly it's the three locatives and the first persons that get the aspirate. The only aspirated forms in IO are the first persons. Given the general lack of *w => h shifts, and the absence of h- with Dhegiha first persons, my suspicion would be that h- with first presons in Winnebago was aspiration of (short?) vowel initial words, but that makes the IO aspiration of first persons only somewhat anomalous. The only other h'aspiration anomaly in Siouan that I know of is the behavior of 'day', e.g., Da aNp-e-tu, OP aNbe, Os haNpe, Wi haNaNp a correspondence also seen with the indefinite pronominal (Da examples moot), OP a-naN 'how many, some number', Os ha-naN, Wi hac^aN' 'where?'. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 1 21:03:02 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This emerged in a class I taught with Ken Miner in about 1980, but I can't recall the detail. And, of course, PSi *? > [h] in Biloxi. I've had tendonitis several times mostly due to computer "keyboarding". In most cases a hydrocortisone injection at the site clears it up quickly. Good luck. Bob > Being laid up with tendonitis I've had an opportunity to read some things I wouldn't ordinarily get to, and noticed a few points of interest in Paul Proulx's article on Algonquian reduplication in IJAL 71.2. 1) Proto-Algonquian distinguishes two types of sandhi - [proto-Algonquian] inter-word insertion of *h. - within-word insertion of *y. The first of these appears to be a discovery (or recent reinvestigation?) of Dahlstrom (1997), exemplified in reduplication in Fox in net- es^a= h- es^awi 1s.subj reduplicator sandhi do.thus 'I do thus' This pair reminds me of the Siouan tendency to - CV1-V2CV => C-V2CV on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but with morphologized expamples of - insertion of *r intervocalically in contexts such as combinations of locatives, the morphology of the causative, and so on. There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. Carter has used this to explain some glottal stops in Mandan and has suggested that it might also ultimately account for ejectives generally, e.g., via a mechanism like CV1-?-V2 => C?-V2. For example (mine of the moment, not necessarily Carter's) te-e die + DECL might lead to t?e. Similarly, it has been suggested somewhere - by Carter and/or Shaw, I think - that declarative =? in some Dakotan dialects might have this sort of source. 2) In connection with the former, Proulx notes that "In Shawnee, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe, words which otherwise would be vowel-initial are written with initial *h*. However, many linguists prefer not to write an initial aspiration as long as it remains automatic, regarding it as sufficiently signalled by the space left between words ... For example, Bloomfield (1962:3) states that in Menominee "initial vowels often have an on-glide resembling *h*" which he does not write. Similarly, in my description of Micmac inflection I wrote "there is nondistinctive aspiration between (two) vowels, and before vowels in utterance initial position." I too did not write it initially, though I did word-internally (Proulx 1978:5). "These facts suggest the hypothesis that Proto-Algonquian may have had predictable aspiration of a vowel-initial word. In some daughter languages aspiration renains predictable (e.g., Menominee). In some it may have been lost (e.g., Fox), and in some it changed to a glottal stop (e.g., Potawatomi). Reduplication with external sandhi inserts this word-initial *h* at the [proto-Algonquian] word boundary between a reduplicator prefix and a vowel-initial stem." A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? While h-linkage is not attested in Siouan that I am aware of, I thought that the presence of automatic initial aspiration in Menominee was interesting in light of the anomalous initial aspiration of verbs (locatives and first persons) in Winnebago. This aspiration, and the presence of initial h with Ioway-Otoe first persons, has always puzzled me, in the sense that I couldn't entirely predict when it occurred. For example, Wi ha-, IO ha-, OP a-, Da wa- for first person agent is not a regular correspondence, though the initial do hold across essentially all first person pronominals, e.g., Wi hiN-, IO hiN-, OP aN- (dative iN-), Da maN- (reflexive possessive miN-) for the patient forms. Winnebago has nouns without h-, e.g., aa 'arm', aap 'leaf', ii 'mouth', ii 'lid', and demonstratives ee 'the aforesaid'. Also adverbs, e.g., aaki' 'on or at both ends or sides', and verbs, aaghi' 'be ready', aaz^(=)re 'be open'. The verbs considered to be *?-initial lack h, e.g., iNiN 'wear over the shoulders' and uNuN 'do; make; wear'. In fact, mainly it's the three locatives and the first persons that get the aspirate. The only aspirated forms in IO are the first persons. Given the general lack of *w => h shifts, and the absence of h- with Dhegiha first persons, my suspicion would be that h- with first presons in Winnebago was aspiration of (short?) vowel initial words, but that makes the IO aspiration of first persons only somewhat anomalous. The only other h'aspiration anomaly in Siouan that I know of is the behavior of 'day', e.g., Da aNp-e-tu, OP aNbe, Os haNpe, Wi haNaNp a correspondence also seen with the indefinite pronominal (Da examples moot), OP a-naN 'how many, some number', Os ha-naN, Wi hac^aN' 'where?'. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 1 21:13:20 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:13:20 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary > relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This Cf. Ojibway ma?i:ngan & Plains Cree mahi:hkan 'wolf'. Alan From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 1 22:08:54 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:08:54 -0700 Subject: Areal Phonology Message-ID: Right. Proto-Algonquian prevocalic */h/ becomes /?/ in Potawatomi and most Ojibwe dialects. But I think some Northern Ojibwe dialects still keep the [h] pronunciation. Also, [?] and [h] are in complementary distribution in Shawnee -- it appears as [?] before consonants and [h] elsewhere. Dave > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> At some point I recall reading that *? and *h enjoyed a complementary >> relationship in Algonquian or in some Algonquian languages. This > Cf. Ojibway ma?i:ngan & Plains Cree mahi:hkan 'wolf'. > Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 1 22:36:51 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:36:51 -0500 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> > on the one hand, where the boundary occurs in compounding, mostly, but >> There are some signs in Mandan of V-?-V linkage, if not V-h-V linkage. > > > A footnote disposes of an anonymous reviewer's comment that word-initial > *h* is not written in pre-19th century Shawnee vocabularies though > English-speaking recorders might have been expected to to have written it. > Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? It's true, John, that native /h/ generally blew in one French ear and out the other, but the sound was recorded occasionally by the historic French. You see it from time to time in the early Miami-Illinois dictionaries. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 1 23:36:27 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:36:27 -0600 Subject: Areal Phonology In-Reply-To: <1125614211.43178283857ce@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Not, I suppose, any French-speaking ones? > > It's true, John, that native /h/ generally blew in one French ear and > out the other, but the sound was recorded occasionally by the historic > French. You see it from time to time in the early Miami-Illinois > dictionaries. Yes, I wondered as I wrote that if I might not be doing some of the French authorities an injustice. On the whole I've been fairly impressed by what I've seen of early French work on American languages. I wondered about French sources for Shawnee only because English sources had beenmentioned so pointedly. David Costa has explained to me off-line that some very accurate native Shawnee sources neglect initial h on the apparent grounds that it is predictable / optional. He agrees that no outside sources mention it before the mid 19th Century. I wonder if English sources might be astute enough to notice this, too, specifically because some English dialects also treat h in this way. Of course, English sources can seldom resist adding initial h in transcribing Cockney usage, so this seems a weak suggestion. I don't believe there are any sources for Wi or IO that omit h- where it occurs, perhaps because it is not at all clear that it is predictable. By which I mean, perhaps only a Siouan comparativist could think it was predictable. Anyway, it's interesting to learn that epentehtic intiial h is so widely distributed in the Algonquian languages, especially ones with some sort of historical connection to the Old Northwest, given that this area seems to be a nexus of the similar phenomena in Siouan. (I guess Biloxi would be a bit far afield from the Old Northwest, and Shawnee is, mostly, too.) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 2 03:05:48 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:05:48 -0600 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration Message-ID: I never know whether to call it haspiration or ahpiration. I looked in the Say Winnebago vocabulary from the Long Expedition. As far as date and place: "The two following Vocabularies were taken down by Major Long during his tour on the upper Mississippi in the year 1817." I may not have the superscript numbers Say uses correctly decyphered. The second-generation xerox I'm using has its limitations. I've marked with asterisk (*) cases where Long differs from Miner. To sum up the results, Long seems to have been somewhat hit or miss in hearing h. He never adds one that isn't there today, but often omits one that is. It doesn't seem to matter whether h is epenthetic or organic as far as when he misses it. Most of the examples are organic h, however. It occurs to me to wonder if h was regularly elided in any earlier American dialects. In other words, perhaps we are not entirely correct in assuming that all early American English speakers could hear an h well. Under the circumstances it seems more likely that Long had trouble hearing h than that the Winnebago speakers he questioned were omitting it. Long Miner Gloss (both, or Long = Miner) a2r-da2h a'a(=ra) 'arm' = 'the arm' *o1ntsh huN'uNc^ 'bear' *o1ngk-pe1 huN'uNk + piNiN 'chief' = 'chief' + 'good' ? *a4h-no2 t?e'e=naNaN 'dead' = 'he died + DECL' ) (In the preceding I assume Long failed to perceive the t in t?ee.) e1ye1-sho2u3-u2ck a'is^ak 'elbow' (The preceding example suggests Say's use of superscripts is not entirely in accord with Long's actual scheme. I suspect they were added as Say thought they should be, and not originally present.) a1-pe1-no2 (ee) piNiN(=naNaN) 'good' = 'it was good + DECL' *o2-a2-ki2sh-ke1 huuwa'gisge' 'garter' *i2sh-o3k hiiz^u'k 'gun' *i2sh-o2-co1-ma3h hiiz^u'gmaNaN 'lead' = 'bullet' *o2-ra2h hu'u=ra 'leg' ='the leg' ha1-da2h he'e=ra 'louse' = 'the louse' ha3h-he2h-we1 haNaNhewi 'moon' e1 i'i 'mouth' a2h-chi2n-shu1n ??? 'old' (Not a clue. The Dakota form is 'old man'.) ?o2k-hu2n-ne1 (hiiz^u'k)uxiNniN' 'gunpowder' he1-no2-ko2-ta2h hinuN'k=ra 'squaw' = 'the woman' he1 hi'i 'teeth' ha3n-na3jh-pe1 hanaN'aNc^ + piNiN 'Universe' = 'all + good' (?) *i2-si1c-we1-ke1-ne1-cha3h heezi'k wikiNniNja 'wax = 'bee' + 'wax' ('beeswax' ?) John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 03:22:36 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:22:36 -0500 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > It occurs to me to wonder if h was regularly elided in any earlier > American dialects. In other words, perhaps we are not entirely correct in > assuming that all early American English speakers could hear an h well. G. P. Krapp [unfortunate man] says in _The English Language in America_ (1925) 2:206 "The records do not indicate that at any time or in any region was the the loss of h [h] in words with this sound in the initial position, or the addition of h at the beginning of words with initial vowels..current in American use." The frequently phonetic spelling of "naive" documents would certainly have represented such pronunciations had they existed. Alan From goodtracks at gbronline.com Fri Sep 2 15:24:58 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:24:58 -0500 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:05 PM Subject: Winnebago Aspiration > To sum up the results, Long seems to have been somewhat hit or miss in > hearing h. He never adds one that isn't there today, but often omits one > that is. It doesn't seem to matter whether h is epenthetic or organic as > far as when he misses it. Most of the examples are organic h, however. > John: It may be coincidence or an earlier pronunciation, but Dorsey consistantly has no "h" for the following: hina'ge (woman) > DOR ina'ge hina's^age (old woman) > ina'sh^age DOR ha'xoje (ashes) > DOR a'xoje I believe I've noted other instances, but I'd have to scour his original IOM texts, and I haven't the time to do that. These words came immediately to me. Jimm From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 2 20:14:09 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:14:09 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: aloha all, A term came up in my Omaha III class today that I thought I'd share with y'all. We were talking about a stuffed skeleton toy "ni'kashiNga wahi'" (bone person) and contrasting it with "wanoN'xe" (ghost or spirit). An Omaha student who recently transfered into UNL from the Omaha reservation offered the term "kuku'i" as ghost. He reported the term used by his Omaha grandmother residing in Sioux City, Iowa. One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had not heard it used in the Omaha community. Any thoughts? wibthahoN, wagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 402-472-3455 FAX 402-472-9642 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 20:22:17 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:22:17 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <003001c5affa$e08a9330$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > An Omaha > student who recently transfered into UNL from the Omaha reservation > offered the term "kuku'i" as ghost. He reported the term used by his > Omaha grandmother residing in Sioux City, Iowa. > > One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her > Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had > not heard it used in the Omaha community. > > Any thoughts? Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for mother-in-law is suegra. Alan From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Sep 2 20:38:51 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:38:51 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: >> One of our speakers suggested it was a Mexican Spanish term, as her >> Mexican Mother-in-Law uses the term commonly in south Texas... but had >> not heard it used in the Omaha community. > > Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for > mother-in-law is suegra. According to several uncredited Internet sources: "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the mountains to carry bad children away." From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 20:48:29 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:48:29 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <002101c5affe$54383190$3e01a8c0@Language> Message-ID: >> Doesn't sound like (even dialect) Spanish. The standard Sp. for >> mother-in-law is suegra. > > > According to several uncredited Internet sources: > > "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, > glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the > mountains to carry bad children away." Boy, I botched that: think before hitting "Send"! (I don't want the spirit of my departed mother-in-law to think I'd confused her with a bogeyman.) And thanks for coming up with "Cucuy", Justin. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Fri Sep 2 21:06:51 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:06:51 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: "El Cucuy [is] a gigantic bogeyman with a crooked back and a large, glowing red ear[s] who is known to come down from his cave in the mountains to carry bad children away." Actually, it sounds like a borrowing from some South American native language into Spanish. A lot of these terms were brought to North America by the Spanish conquistadores. They learned them with Cortez in Mexico or with Pizarro in Peru and then joined other expeditions north of the border that transferred the terms to North American Indian languages. For example the Aztec word for 'turkey' turns up in Muskogee Creek referring to one or another kind of fowl. The Quechua term for 'basket' crops up among terms for Indian baskets in Juan Pardo's account of his trek through the Southeast. This may well be another such term. Bob From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 21:14:22 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:14:22 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED has: Cucuy(o) (also cucuio, cocuyo, cucullo, cucujo). [Sp. cucuyo, adaptation of a Haitian or other native American name.] The West Indian firefly (Pyrophorus noctilucus), an elaterid beetle which emits brilliant phosphorescent light from spots on the body. 1591 SYLVESTER Du Bartas I. v. 794 New-Spain's Cucuio, in his forehead brings Two burning Lamps, two underneath his wings. 1647 W. BROWNE Polexander I. 97 These little Cucuyes..mingle their living lights with the obscuritie of this Dungeon. 1692 COLES, Cucuye, a bird in Hispaniola, with eyes under the wings, shining in the night. 1706 PHILLIPS (ed. Kersey), Cucuyos, a king of Fly in America, which gives such a Lustre in the Night that one may..write and read by the Light of it. [and later] From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Fri Sep 2 21:50:02 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:50:02 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan H. Hartley" To: Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:14 PM Subject: Re: kuku'i ghost > The OED has: > > Cucuy(o) (also cucuio, cocuyo, cucullo, cucujo). [Sp. cucuyo, adaptation > of a Haitian or other native American name.] > > The West Indian firefly (Pyrophorus noctilucus), an elaterid beetle > which emits brilliant phosphorescent light from spots on the body. > > 1591 SYLVESTER Du Bartas I. v. 794 New-Spain's Cucuio, in his forehead > brings Two burning Lamps, two underneath his wings. 1647 W. BROWNE > Polexander I. 97 These little Cucuyes..mingle their living lights with > the obscuritie of this Dungeon. 1692 COLES, Cucuye, a bird in > Hispaniola, with eyes under the wings, shining in the night. 1706 > PHILLIPS (ed. Kersey), Cucuyos, a king of Fly in America, which gives > such a Lustre in the Night that one may..write and read by the Light of > it. [and later] > From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri Sep 2 21:54:47 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <000901c5b008$45a1dd70$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? Yup--pretty neat! From rwd0002 at unt.edu Sat Sep 3 16:44:28 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <4318CA27.2080106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > In Ruben Cobos, A dictionary of New Mexico and Southern Colorado Spanish (2003), I find: cucuy m. [fr. Mex. Sp. coco, bogeyman, and !Uy!, an expression denoting fright] bogeyman. The etymology seems fanciful to me. Willem From are2 at buffalo.edu Sun Sep 4 10:01:03 2005 From: are2 at buffalo.edu (are2 at buffalo.edu) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 06:01:03 -0400 Subject: kuku'i ghost In-Reply-To: <4318CA27.2080106@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I've never seen the term used here (but there's lots I haven't heard). Also, I think we used wahi niashiNga (rather than niashiNga wahi) for skeleton. -Ardis Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to > suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sun Sep 4 14:57:57 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:57:57 +0100 Subject: new Lakhota book Message-ID: Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani. The URL is: http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rwd0002 at unt.edu Sun Sep 4 18:53:51 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:53:51 -0500 Subject: new Lakhota book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Anthony Grant : > Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to > Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, > Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 > languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani. > > The URL is: http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html > > Anthony Thanks for pointing that out. That German phrasebook series is quite impressive. It has always been my impression that Germans expect more from phrasebooks than English-speakers do. No funny pronunciation aids of the "voo- lay voo coo-shay ah-vehk mwah" type: learn the spelling or IPA!; no promises of no grammar: here is the grammar you need. I have not seen the Lakota and Nahuatl ones, but have read the Guarani and Quechua ones, and they are quite "gut"! From rankin at ku.edu Sun Sep 4 20:44:25 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:44:25 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: The place to go for the best etymologizing would be the "Diccionario Critico Etimologico" of Spanish. If I think of it, I'll try to check next time I'm in the biblioteca. I guess I should check and see if they've put it on-line. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent: Sat 9/3/2005 11:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: kuku'i ghost Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > > > Hmm... the image of a firefly flickering in the night seems to suggest a > > possible connection to the image of a ghost, enit? > > Yup--pretty neat! > In Ruben Cobos, A dictionary of New Mexico and Southern Colorado Spanish (2003), I find: cucuy m. [fr. Mex. Sp. coco, bogeyman, and !Uy!, an expression denoting fright] bogeyman. The etymology seems fanciful to me. Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Sep 5 09:19:33 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:19:33 +0200 Subject: new Lakota book Message-ID: > Has anyone seen the following book? It's a German language guide to Lakhota, written by Rebecca Netzel and published by Reise-Know-How, Peter-Rump-Verlag, Bielefeld, Germany. They've done books on over 100 languages, including Nahuatl, Quechua and Guarani.<< These seem to be kind of - somewhat more elaborated - 'Sprachf?hrer' (language guides) to provide some basics on many languages (obviously meant to go together with travel guides). I think they're quite helpful to getting a quick overview on pronunciation, syntax and basic conversational phrases. The 'Kauderwelsch' (gibberish) series are giving you a feel for the syntax structures. There are also virtual editions (PDF) with sound files available. Most valuable! (A sample for Thai is downloadable for free.) The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for 'lakota'. Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Sep 5 11:29:14 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:29:14 +0100 Subject: Rain in the faces daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists A friend of mine over here who is doing ongoing research on the Buffalo Bill Wild West show visits to England asks the following:. ?Basically what it's about is that there was a music hall act in the early 20th century, featuring one 'Montana Bill' who claimed that he had been with the Wild West show. He left a handwritten manuscript, with all manner of extraordianry statments in it. He claimed to have been closely associated with Buffalo Bill. He also said that his mother was an Oglala Lakota and daughter of Rain in the Face, named Ne-Oska-Letta. If you don't understand this, I'm not surprised as I'm pretty sure the whole thing is a lie anyway. In Mexican Joe's show, there was a lady whose (stage) name was Neosreleata. She was billed as an Apache, but I have good reason to suppose that she was really a Winnebago. I also suspect that this is where Montana Bill got the name from. If you are unable to identify either version of the name as Lakota, I think that tells its own story, and confirms my suspicions. Thanks Bruce! Yours, Tom? Are either of the two names Ne-Oska-Letta or Neosreleata familiar to anyone ? Bruce From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Mon Sep 5 11:35:25 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:35:25 +0100 Subject: Pemni Wichak'upi In-Reply-To: <430F4E82.6090508@umn.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Cantemaza I immediately thought of the pie connection too, but it seemed inappropriate. I wondered whether it could refer to ?tobacco ties?, though I suppose pemni is not the first root to spring to mind in that connection. Philamayaye Yours Bruce On 26/8/05 6:16 pm, "Cantemaza" wrote: > helpdesk wrote: >> Pemni Wichak'upi Does anyone know what the term Pemni Wichak?upi may mean. >> I have it from a tape on the subject of religion. It is in reference to a >> ceremony and I presume it is a Lakota ceremony. It just might refer to Holy >> Communion, but I don?t think so because that is referred to in the same >> context as Yutapi Wakhan Icupi. I wondered whether the pemni were ?tobacco >> ties?. Hope someone can help >> >> Bruce > I have not heard this myself but we (Bdewakantunwan Dakota hemaca do) do have > a word for pie, wo'pemni s'paN. I haven't been to a ceremony yet where pie is > used so I'm pretty sure that is not it he-he. Wo'pemni s'paN means the thing > that's cooked round or in a circle (taspaN wo'pemni s'paN - apple pie). > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwd0002 at unt.edu Mon Sep 5 16:51:19 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: new Lakota book In-Reply-To: <431C0DA5.5040507@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to > be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for > 'lakota'. > > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Sep 5 17:33:27 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:33:27 +0200 Subject: new Lakota book Message-ID: > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search for 'lakota'.<<<< > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? << Willem, you're absolutely correct :) it's listed under 'Sioux Lakota' (but I did find it anyway). Do you possess it already? Maybe, I'll order it, be it only to learn how the booklet is made up for its limited purpose. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 05:20:18 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:20:18 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: Howdy, I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following phrase. Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Jonathan Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 08:35:47 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:35:47 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? << Yes it is! But I'd guess it should be rather: "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] which I'd - quite hesitantly - translate as: "My younger brother, good luck throughout (the) earth (male speech)!" oglu - luck, fortune; to befall one (so MAYBE: 'oglu waste' is meant as 'good luck' - which I'd judge as an Anglicism) sitomni - all over, throughout Please don't ask wether or not this is good Lakota. (or my translation is erroneous :-( ). Toksa ake Alfred From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Sep 6 14:00:19 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:00:19 +0100 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <20050906052018.37338.qmail@web54511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi there It looks as though it is intended to mean ?Little Brother go with good fortune around the world or all over the world? . However I don?t know whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language like English. MisuN is the vocative use ?Oh Little Brother?. Oglu does mean ?fortune, luck?, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or Makha sitomniyaN means ?all over the world?. The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means ?he goes? one would expect yelo. If it means ?go!?. One would expect yayo or iyayo. Bruce On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: > Howdy, > > I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following > phrase. > > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo > > It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka > or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps > because of mis-spelled words? > > Any help or advice would be appreciated. > Jonathan > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 6 15:50:25 2005 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:50:25 -0600 Subject: new Lakota book In-Reply-To: <431C8167.6000205@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I have the book (Dr. Netzel sent me a copy after we met briefly in Heidelberg a few months ago). It has lots of interesting information in it; I haven't looked at it very carefully yet, however. It's main problem is that the orthography is totally idiosyncratic, a peculiar mixture of Buechel and White Hat -- the eternal problem of aspiration/lack of aspiration, of course. A quick glance shows that aspirated stops are usually marked with a hacek, unaspirated ones with a dot, and predictable ones (in clusters or in the plural pi) are unmarked, but I haven't really tried to figure it out. Dr. Netzel said she was under severe pressure from the publisher to do it this way, and no linguist will have any trouble figuring it out -- but of course it's really regrettable. Jan Ullrich tried to get her to change before the book was printed, and she mentions that under the name of the Lakota Language Consortium standardization attempts -- but continues to ignore it. Dr. Netzel did a lot of her own field work for this, so there is information that we haven't seen elsewhere. And, as the list contributors have said already, the series is quite reputable and has a lot more than the average tourist phrase book. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 5 Sep 2005, [windows-1252] "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > > > The Lakota booklet seems to be pretty new, since this language isn't > to be found in the pull-down menue's language list - one has to search > for 'lakota'.<<<< > > > > Alfred: I think you have to look at the pull-down menu under > Sioux-Lakota. That is what you meant, right? << > > > Willem, you're absolutely correct :) it's listed under 'Sioux Lakota' > (but I did find it anyway). Do you possess it already? Maybe, I'll order > it, be it only to learn how the booklet is made up for its limited purpose. > > > Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 15:52:45 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:52:45 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > (...) The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means ?he goes? one would expect yelo. If it means ?go!?. One would expect yayo or iyayo. << Bruce, I suspect that *yalo is influenced by American orthography (and should be _yelo_ instead). I remember watching the movie "Dances with Wolves" (Sunkmanitu tanka ob waci) quite some times over the years: Initially, I was pretty impressed by the Lakota sequences there... and later wasn't any longer e.g. for the simple reason that most of the actors weren't even able to pronounce this tiny Lakota word correctly: it came repeatedly as [yay'low] i.e. with a heavy American accent and the stress on its 1st syllable :)) Do you think that a verb _yA_ is needed in this sentence? BTW, if there really was a Lakota title (as given above) its translation to English seems very knowledgeable, i.e. with reference to the plural of wolf. (This is different with the German title "Der mit dem Wolf tanzt".) Toksa ake Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 16:46:45 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bruce, This helps a great deal. Thanks for taking the time with it. Just one question though. Is there much of a difference between the use of oglu and the use of wa'pika for the term "fortune"? Thanks, Jonathan Bruce Ingham wrote: Hi there It looks as though it is intended to mean ?Little Brother go with good fortune around the world or all over the world? . However I don?t know whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language like English. MisuN is the vocative use ?Oh Little Brother?. Oglu does mean ?fortune, luck?, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or Makha sitomniyaN means ?all over the world?. The yalo part is slightly odd. If it means ?he goes? one would expect yelo. If it means ?go!?. One would expect yayo or iyayo. Bruce On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: Howdy, I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following phrase. Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Jonathan Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Tue Sep 6 16:57:54 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:57:54 +0100 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <20050906164645.23450.qmail@web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Oglu is a noun meaning ?fortune? , whereas wapi or wapika means ?fortunate? or ?be fortunate?. I must say the latter is the one I have seen more often Bruce On 6/9/05 5:46 pm, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: > Bruce, > This helps a great deal. Thanks for taking the time with it. Just one question > though. Is there much of a difference between the use of oglu and the use of > wa'pika for the term "fortune"? > Thanks, > Jonathan > > Bruce Ingham wrote: >> Hi there >> It looks as though it is intended to mean ?Little Brother go with good >> fortune around the world or all over the world? . However I don?t know >> whether it is correct in Lakota or is a translation from another language >> like English. MisuN is the vocative use ?Oh Little Brother?. Oglu does mean >> ?fortune, luck?, although I have not seen it used often. Makha Sitomni or >> Makha sitomniyaN means ?all over the world?. The yalo part is slightly odd. >> If it means ?he goes? one would expect yelo. If it means ?go!?. One would >> expect yayo or iyayo. >> Bruce >> >> >> On 6/9/05 6:20 am, "Jonathan Holmes" wrote: >> >>> Howdy, >>> >>> I have a friend that asked me recently if I could translate the following >>> phrase. >>> >>> Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo >>> >>> It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka >>> or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it >>> perhaps because of mis-spelled words? >>> >>> Any help or advice would be appreciated. >>> Jonathan > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 17:04:16 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <431D54E3.4010708@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred, Thanks for taking the time to help out with this. Jonathan "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote: > Misun oglu waste maka sitomni yalo It looks like Lakota (primarily because I recognize waste or "good" and maka or "earth" as being Lakota), but the rest I'm not so sure about. Is it perhaps because of mis-spelled words? << Yes it is! But I'd guess it should be rather: "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] which I'd - quite hesitantly - translate as: "My younger brother, good luck throughout (the) earth (male speech)!" oglu - luck, fortune; to befall one (so MAYBE: 'oglu waste' is meant as 'good luck' - which I'd judge as an Anglicism) sitomni - all over, throughout Please don't ask wether or not this is good Lakota. (or my translation is erroneous :-( ). Toksa ake Alfred Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jurga at ou.edu Tue Sep 6 17:16:06 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:16:06 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Sep 6 18:21:10 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:21:10 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: > (...) I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his translation was: Younger brother, we make things good around the world, or, Younger brother, we make the world better. << With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. Alfred From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 20:09:23 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:09:23 -0700 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Jurga. Jonathan jurga at ou.edu wrote: I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his translation was: Younger brother, we make things good around the world, or, Younger brother, we make the world better. Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 7 18:21:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:21:46 -0600 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > translation was: > > Younger? brother, we make things good around the world, > > or, > > Younger brother, we make the world better. Orignal: (correcting to yelo from yalo) "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" [misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm Alfred Tueting comments: > With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to > be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed "linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had come about. As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have essentially already done that. I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence results from trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) fortune' and writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. This last glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if taken at face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White Hat's English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is causativized? In what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is trying to be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the level of a scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is "Garbled in, garbled out." From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Sep 7 20:40:39 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:40:39 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat how to tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e-mail or something? I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things good." This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing something into the positive or haviong a positive effect on something/someone or making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they haven't plus I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world better" I would say "Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." Just my two cents. Hehanyedan epe kte do. -Cantemaza de miye do! Koontz John E wrote: >On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > >>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his >>translation was: >> >>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, >> >>or, >> >>Younger brother, we make the world better. >> >> > >Orignal: > >(correcting to yelo from yalo) > >"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" >[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > >Alfred Tueting comments: > > >>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to >>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. >> >> > >I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think >Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by >anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) >practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the >word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, >however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed >"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had >come about. > >As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have essentially >already done that. I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, >though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as >widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is >the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > >I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence results from >trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence >already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) fortune' and >writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. This last >glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if taken at >face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White Hat's >English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is causativized? In >what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, >pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is trying to >be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > >So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the level of a >scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is "Garbled in, >garbled out." > > > >. > > > From jurga at ou.edu Wed Sep 7 21:49:52 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:49:52 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. Jurga Saltanaviciute P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux Reservation); translations were done in person. ----- Original Message ----- From: cantemaza Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat > how to > tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- > mail or > something? > I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things > good." > This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not > ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing > something > into the positive or haviong a positive effect on > something/someone or > making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they > haven't plus > I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world > better" I would say > > "Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." > > Just my two cents. > > Hehanyedan epe kte do. > > -Cantemaza de miye do! > > Koontz John E wrote: > > >On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > > > > >>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > >>translation was: > >> > >>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, > >> > >>or, > >> > >>Younger brother, we make the world better. > >> > >> > > > >Orignal: > > > >(correcting to yelo from yalo) > > > >"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" > >[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > > y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > > > >Alfred Tueting comments: > > > > > >>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation > seems to > >>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. > >> > >> > > > >I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I > don't think > >Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been > faulted by > >anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic > (technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will > forgive me using the > >word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, > >however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed > >"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant > translation had > >come about. > > > >As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have > essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the > sentence is idiomatic, > >though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a > language as > >widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu > was^te is > >the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > > > >I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence > results from > >trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence > >already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) > fortune' and > >writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. > This last > >glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if > taken at > >face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White > Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is > causativized? In > >what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, > >pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is > trying to > >be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > > > >So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the > level of a > >scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is > "Garbled in, > >garbled out." > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Sep 7 22:07:48 2005 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (cantemaza) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:07:48 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? In-Reply-To: <29d0a74e2ffe.431f1a30@ou.edu> Message-ID: Based on the original text in the first e-mail with "Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!", the translation of "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." does fit. Of course if this were from a conversation, based on what was being discussed, it could take on even more meanings. This is very important to remember and something that I try to pass on to my students of the Dakota language. Context and meaning are very important to the speaker and it can be very hard to just say "Hey! What does this phrase mean??" Yes, the speaker does throw their spin and personal interpretatiopn on these words/phrases which makes it even more necessary to be mindful when working with the langauge and including the indigenous perspective instead of saying "This is the one and only way to say this." Thanks for asking around. It is much appreciated! -Cantemaza de miye do! jurga at ou.edu wrote: >I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. >Jurga Saltanaviciute >P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux Reservation); translations were done in person. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: cantemaza >Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm >Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > > > >>Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert WhiteHat >>how to >>tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- >>mail or >>something? >>I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things >>good." >>This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not >>ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing >>something >>into the positive or haviong a positive effect on >>something/someone or >>making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they >>haven't plus >>I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the world >>better" I would say >> >>"Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." >> >>Just my two cents. >> >>Hehanyedan epe kte do. >> >>-Cantemaza de miye do! >> >>Koontz John E wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his >>>>translation was: >>>> >>>>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, >>>> >>>>or, >>>> >>>>Younger brother, we make the world better. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Orignal: >>> >>>(correcting to yelo from yalo) >>> >>>"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" >>>[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] >>>y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm >>> >>>Alfred Tueting comments: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation >>>> >>>> >>seems to >> >> >>>>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I >>> >>> >>don't think >> >> >>>Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been >>> >>> >>faulted by >> >> >>>anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic >>> >>> >>(technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will >>forgive me using the >> >> >>>word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, >>>however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed >>>"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant >>> >>> >>translation had >> >> >>>come about. >>> >>>As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have >>> >>> >>essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the >>sentence is idiomatic, >> >> >>>though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a >>> >>> >>language as >> >> >>>widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu >>> >>> >>was^te is >> >> >>>the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? >>> >>>I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence >>> >>> >>results from >> >> >>>trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original sentence >>>already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for '(good) >>> >>> >>fortune' and >> >> >>>writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. >>> >>> >>This last >> >> >>>glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if >>> >>> >>taken at >> >> >>>face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. White >>> >>> >>Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is >>causativized? In >> >> >>>what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, >>>pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat is >>> >>> >>trying to >> >> >>>be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. >>> >>>So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the >>> >>> >>level of a >> >> >>>scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is >>> >>> >>"Garbled in, >> >> >>>garbled out." >>> >>> >>> >>>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >. > > > From jurga at ou.edu Thu Sep 8 00:44:41 2005 From: jurga at ou.edu (jurga at ou.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:44:41 -0500 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: I am not doing this to confuse anybody, but here is another interesting translation. I am actually quite enjoying this. According to yet another speaker, if this phrase comes from a song or prayer, it could mean, "Younger brother, we make up (o-glu waste) [and make it known] around the world." I think this example only shows the problems that we are facing in translation, because my experience with Lakota so far shows that the words can mean many different things and without knowing the cultural context it is sometimes hard to even make sense. Jurga ----- Original Message ----- From: cantemaza Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > Based on the original text in the first e-mail with "Misun, oglu > waste > maka sitomni yelo!", > the translation of "Younger brother, there are good things around > the > world." does fit. Of course if this were from a conversation, > based on > what was being discussed, it could take on even more meanings. > This is > very important to remember and something that I try to pass on to > my > students of the Dakota language. Context and meaning are very > important > to the speaker and it can be very hard to just say "Hey! What > does this > phrase mean??" Yes, the speaker does throw their spin and > personal > interpretatiopn on these words/phrases which makes it even more > necessary to be mindful when working with the langauge and > including the > indigenous perspective instead of saying "This is the one and only > way > to say this." Thanks for asking around. It is much appreciated! > > -Cantemaza de miye do! > > > jurga at ou.edu wrote: > > >I showed the same sentence to another speaker, and he translated > it as "Younger brother, there are good things around the world." > It seems that "we make" or "there are" are the parts that the > speakers fill in depending on their own understanding of the > sentence. I thought it might be interesting from the point of view > of the "cultural" part of the language, which might be hidden in > the context (which is interesting to me as a cultural/linguistic > anthropologist). I will let you know if I hear of any other variants. > >Jurga Saltanaviciute > >P.S. I am currently at the Sicangu Oyate (or Rosebud Sioux > Reservation); translations were done in person. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: cantemaza > >Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:40 pm > >Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? > > > > > > > >>Just out of curiosity, who was it agin that asked Albert > WhiteHat > >>how to > >>tranlsate this? Was it done orally or in written form like an e- > >>mail or > >>something? > >>I'm asking because I do not see the "we" in the "we make things > >>good." > >>This would be unhduwaste (Damakota do!) for we/you and I and not > >>ohduwaste which does by itself have the meaning of changing > >>something > >>into the positive or haviong a positive effect on > >>something/someone or > >>making something good. If someone were to ask me (and they > >>haven't plus > >>I am very young) to translate "Younger brother, we make the > world > >>better" I would say > >> > >>"Misun, maka sitomniya unhduwaste ye/do." > >> > >>Just my two cents. > >> > >>Hehanyedan epe kte do. > >> > >>-Cantemaza de miye do! > >> > >>Koontz John E wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 jurga at ou.edu wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>I just asked Mr. White Hat for help with this sentence, and his > >>>>translation was: > >>>> > >>>>Younger brother, we make things good around the world, > >>>> > >>>>or, > >>>> > >>>>Younger brother, we make the world better. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Orignal: > >>> > >>>(correcting to yelo from yalo) > >>> > >>>"Misun, oglu waste maka sitomni yelo!" > >>>[misuN' oglu' was^te' makxa' sito'mni yelo'] > >>>y-bro VOC fortune good world all around DECLm > >>> > >>>Alfred Tueting comments: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this > translation > >>>> > >>>> > >>seems to > >> > >> > >>>>be in need of linguistical elucidation, doesn't it?. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I > >>> > >>> > >>don't think > >> > >> > >>>Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been > >>> > >>> > >>faulted by > >> > >> > >>>anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic > >>> > >>> > >>(technical)>practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks > will > >>forgive me using the > >> > >> > >>>word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, > >>>however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed > >>>"linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant > >>> > >>> > >>translation had > >> > >> > >>>come about. > >>> > >>>As far as elucidating the original, I think he and Bruce have > >>> > >>> > >>essentially>already done that. I'm still not clear if the > >>sentence is idiomatic, > >> > >> > >>>though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a > >>> > >>> > >>language as > >> > >> > >>>widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places > oglu > >>> > >>> > >>was^te is > >> > >> > >>>the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? > >>> > >>>I suspect this alternative approach to rendering the sentence > >>> > >>> > >>results from > >> > >> > >>>trying to make sense of the unusual aspects of the original > sentence>>>already noted, i.e., the unusual word for oglu for > '(good) > >>> > >>> > >>fortune' and > >> > >> > >>>writing yelo as yalo under the influence of English spelling. > >>> > >>> > >>This last > >> > >> > >>>glitch, in particular, adds a causative or verb of motion, if > >>> > >>> > >>taken at > >> > >> > >>>face value, and I think that leads to the causative in Mr. > White > >>> > >>> > >>Hat's>English rendition. But, if it's a causative, what is > >>causativized? In > >> > >> > >>>what person is the resulting construction to be construed and, > >>>pragmatically, translated? In essence, I think Mr. White Hat > is > >>> > >>> > >>trying to > >> > >> > >>>be faithful "to the letter" of a fairly obscure text. > >>> > >>>So, to adapt an old computer science maxim and raise it to the > >>> > >>> > >>level of a > >> > >> > >>>scientific principle, my explanation of the difference is > >>> > >>> > >>"Garbled in, > >> > >> > >>>garbled out." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Thu Sep 8 10:14:44 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:14:44 +0000 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci From: "Bruce Ingham" Message-ID: I was intersted to hear that one of the correspondents interpreted ogluwas^te, which I took as 'good fortune', as uNgluwas^te 'we make something good, improve something'. It is true that uN- and o- do sound quite similar and if this was from a tape, one could easily be the same as the other. However it just seems strange that the sentence should be the exclusive 'we' ie 'you and I' rather than the inclusive uN....pi ' I and other people'. It seems to make less sense, but as someone said, we should know the context to make sense of it. While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. Are these really two separate words or are they the same word spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. Can any Lakotas or Dakotas out there help? Yours Bruce -----Original Message----- From: jurga at ou.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:44:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Is this a Lakota sentence? I am not doing this to confuse anybody, but here is another interesting translation. I am actually quite enjoying this. According to yet another speaker, if this phrase comes from a song or prayer, it could mean, "Younger brother, we make up (o-glu waste) [and make it known] around the world." ther people'. It seems to make less sense, but as someone said, we should know the context to make sense of it. While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. Are these really two separate words or are they the same word spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. Can any Lakotas or Dakotas out there help? Yours Bruce -----Original Message----- From: jurga at ou.edu To: siouan@ From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Sep 8 13:23:29 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:23:29 +0200 Subject: Is this a Lakota sentence? Message-ID: >> With all due respect for Mr. W-H's competence, this translation seems to be in need of linguistical elucidation, isn't it?.<<<< > I was a little surprised at this comment at first reading. I don't think Mr. White Hat's linguistic (speech) competence has ever been faulted by anyone I know, though some have grumbled about his linguistic (technical) practice (in orthography, as I recall), if folks will forgive me using the word linguistic in two different senses in one sentence. I think, however, that Alfred meant only that the rendition above needed "linguistic elucidation," to explain how such a variant translation had come about. << Oh, my apologize if my comment was causing any misunderstanding. Thanks, John, for clearing things: I just wanted to express it the way you explained above. (People might know my deep appreciation for Mr. White Hat's work and I share most of his views on "how" to speak and understand the language in our modern days, and I like the way he personally does.) > (...) I'm still not clear if the sentence is idiomatic, though idiomaticity must be a variable and moving target in a language as widely distributed and lively as Lakota. Maybe some places oglu was^te is the usual expression for 'fortun(ate)'? << At a second thought, I also asked myself wether or not this sentence could be an idiomatism or at least a standing phrase (without explicite need of a verb/predicate, e.g. in Hungarian 'J? reggelt (kiv?nok)!" - (wish [you])[a] good morning! or in German "Hut ab!"- compliments! etc. etc. Yet, for me it is totally clear now: Mr. White Hat - being 'at home' in his language - obviously didn't hesitate one second to rule out **oglu waste, although hearing a sentence like this, because he knew that this wasn't part of the Lakota vocabulary, and replacing the expression by _ungluwaste_ [uNglu'was^te] which is grammatical - because providing the predicate needed - and also makes a lot of sense! yuwaste [yuwa's^te] (= waste with the hand/action prefix): to make smth. good/better -> gluwaste [gluwa's^te] (the dative/ki form): to make smth. good/better for one. Hence: Misun, ungluwaste maka sitomni yelo! - Younger brother, let us make it better [for us] all around/throughout [the] earth! (Maybe: ... let's make this our world better to live in, etc.) Only context can tell why it is not _ungluwaste pi_ (as Bruce refers to). As for _maka sitomni_ (instead of _maka sitomniyan_), I'd assume that it is meant adverbially here. Other than verbs (or nouns), adverbs obviously do not seem to be restricted with regard to their position within the Lakota syntax. Toksa ake Alfred From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 8 18:10:34 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:10:34 -0500 Subject: kuku'i ghost Message-ID: Aloha Bob, Our library has the reference book you cited. I'll wander over today and take a peak for the ghost/boogeyman/firefly. Thanks to all who chimed in on this inquiry. wibthahoN Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: RE: kuku'i ghost The place to go for the best etymologizing would be the "Diccionario Critico Etimologico" of Spanish. If I think of it, I'll try to check next time I'm in the biblioteca. I guess I should check and see if they've put it on-line. Bob From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Sep 8 18:58:38 2005 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:58:38 +0200 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci In-Reply-To: <1126174484.c071bea0Bi1@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, > While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often > confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, > accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. > Are these really two separate words or are they the same word > spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with speakers and texts they are. Notice for instance that ogna' is often used in combination with the demonstratives le and he and that logna' 'this way' and hogna' 'that way' are fully lexicalized adverbs. But there is no such word as *huNgna' or *luNgna'. Jan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 8 21:03:38 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:03:38 -0500 Subject: Geoff Kimball Message-ID: Those on the list who are acquainted with New Orleans linguist Geoff Kimball (author of the Koasati grammar and dictionary) will be happy to learn that he is OK. He says he stayed in his home there through the storm and had minimal damage but that the security situation afterward led him to go and stay with friends in another town for awhile, so he is near Houma, LA at the moment. Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 8 20:29:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:29:47 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha Negatives (RE: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci) In-Reply-To: <002e01c5b4a7$52bbe1b0$0201a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Jan F. Ullrich wrote: > The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and > uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two > are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with > speakers and texts they are. (Thanks to everyone for pointing out the porential for #o- ~ #uN- confusion in Lakota. I'd overlooked that.) I think that historically the -gna element is what amounts to a vertitive (in k-) of the 'sitting'/'round' positional. The comparable OP form would be gdhaN, though I think OP ugdhaN (< *o-k-raN(kE)) is 'to put (a round thing) in, to insert (a round thing)'. That would be a linguist's analytical gloss, not a colloquial one. I'd have to check that the form occurs, but I seem to remember it. The uN- element in Lakota uNgna I don't recognize. I'm assuming that the underlying stem is again -gna, which it might not be. Potentially the form could be something like (?) *uNk-la I suppose. The only parallel for uN- or uNk- that occurs to me is OP aNkkaz^i 'no'. This is actually a sort of particle aNkkV to which has been appended the somewhat inflected OP negative. A1 aNkka=m=az^i 'me not' A2 aNkka=z^i 'you not' A3/Plural aNkka=b=az^i 'she/he/it/they/us/y'all not' The negative morpheme is =(a)z^i, which conditions the a-grade, as does the plural/proximate =b(i). The only actual inflected form is maN 'I do' in the first person. The rest is just negative base aNkkV, plural-proximate =b(i) and =(a)z^i negative in various combinations. I don't control the idiomatic use of the personal forms here, but I think you could gloss them 'I say no(t)', etc. 'Yes' could be hau (ho) 'expression of agreement, approval' if male is speaking to male, but I think verification and agreement are more usually expressed as egaN 'like that', comparable to Latin sic, the source of Spanish si, Portuguese sim, etc., in Romance. The form egaN is itself inflectable, e.g., A1 egimaN A2 egiz^aN A3 egaN I am not sure of plural(s) at the moment! I don't think the personal forms are used in agreement (i.e., saying 'yes'), but I don't know. Anyway, returning to aNkkV, its internal structure is obscure to me, but I suppose it might be *uNk-ki-, parallel with e=g(i)-aN < *e-ki-?uN. In that case the aN < *?uN reflected in A1 aNkka=m=az^i might be a parallel with the more complete paradigm of aN < *?uN in egimaN < A1 *e-ki-m-?uN, etc. If that's so then aNk- in aNkkaz^i 'no' might well be historically from *uNk- 'doubtful', and be used in parallel with *e- 'thus, as stated' in egaN 'yes, thus'. From bi1 at soas.ac.uk Fri Sep 9 12:12:03 2005 From: bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:12:03 +0100 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci In-Reply-To: <002e01c5b4a7$52bbe1b0$0201a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: Thanks Jan and John and others The ogna and uNgna one is not so difficult, because usually you can tell from the context what is meant. This is also usually true when they have further suffixes, because they seem to become specialized in meaning as with uNgnahaNs^na 'occasionally' and uNgnahela or uNgnahaNla 'suddenly, unexpectedly'. At least I hope that is what they mean, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I have difficulty in knowing what ognayehci means in some cases, but take it to mean 'closely, accurately'. Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning? Bruce On 8/9/05 7:58 pm, "Jan F. Ullrich" wrote: > Hi Bruce, > >> While we are on the subject of o- and uN- I am often >> confused by ognayeh^ci which I take to mean 'closely, >> accurately' and uNgnayeh^ci which I take to mean 'perhaps'. >> Are these really two separate words or are they the same word >> spelt differently with a wide spread of meanings. > > > The two words you gave are derivates of: ogna' 'in, in the way of' and > uNgna' 'perhaps, by chance, suddenly'. So the question is whether the two > are different words or not? In my experience based both on work with > speakers and texts they are. > Notice for instance that ogna' is often used in combination with the > demonstratives le and he and that logna' 'this way' and hogna' 'that way' > are fully lexicalized adverbs. But there is no such word as *huNgna' or > *luNgna'. > > Jan > > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Sep 9 14:19:58 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:19:58 +0200 Subject: ognayehci- vs uNgnayehci Message-ID: > I have difficulty in knowing what ognayehci means in some cases, but take it to mean 'closely, accurately'. Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning? << ognayehci [ogna'yeh^ci] is given as 'closely, nearly, about' by Buechel - okay so far, but what does ognaye mean, assuming that the final -h^ca being a particle to express the idea of 'real', 'true' or something in this sense (cf. winuhca - about: 'real wife/my wife'- W-H jr.; a man's mother-in-law - B; tahca [txa'h^ca] the deer as such; wahca the generic name for flowers etc.)? BTW, is h^ca cognate to h^ci?? (e.g. hcahca - very; hcA - very; hci - very. My guess is that ognaye is derived from ogna (that expresses the idea of in/inside, hold in etc. ungna seems to give the notion of uncertainty (perhaps, I do not know but that - B; beware lest - R) -> ungnagata (in the corner behind the door - B), ungnage (the places on both sides of the tent door inside; in the corner behind the door; the place fenced off(!) on each side of the door of a lodge - B etc.); ungnahah^ci (possibly, it may be so - B,R); ungnahan -> ungnahanla (suddenly, immediately - B,R; maybe: "one didn't know of smth just little time before"); ungnahelayA (to surprise one - B). BTW, I didn't find *ungnayehci but only ungnayehcis [uNgna'yeh^cis^] which is in the same line like the examples above (emph.: perhaps, possibly - B). I'd appreciate any comments. Alfred From rankin at ku.edu Sun Sep 11 15:18:07 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:18:07 -0500 Subject: FW: a conference announcement. Message-ID: This was sent to me, and probably to many of you, and I thought it might be interesting to the list. Bob Workshop organised by Hans Christian Lusch?tzky and Franz Rainer on The polysemy of agent nouns Call for papers In many languages, the patterns used in the formation of agent nouns may also serve for the formation of instrumental, locative and other nouns (cf., e.g., the German nomina acti of the type Seufzer 'sigh', from seufzen 'to sigh'). It is generally believed that this polysemy is very wide-spread cross-linguistically and that its supposed ubiquity has been the result of independent processes of semantic extension, especially metaphor or metonymy. A closer look at the bibliography on this problem, however, reveals that both the typological and the diachronic part of this common belief are, up to now, underdetermined by the facts. On the one hand, studies about non-Indo-European languages are extremely rare. On the other, most studies about Indo-European are essentially synchronic in nature, and even if they are diachronic, they hardly ever give detailed information about when and how exactly the supposed semantic extension occurred. Some diachronic studies furthermore show that at least in some cases what looks like polysemy from a purely synchronic perspective must be attributed to other mechanisms (borrowing, loan-translation, homonymisation of formerly distinct patterns, ellipsis, or conversion) when subjected to a detailed diachronic analysis. In our workshop, we would like to subject the (supposed) polysemy of agent nouns to closer scrutiny. All kinds of contributions capable of shedding new light on the problem are welcome in principle, but we would like to encourage particularly studies taking into account languages and language families that have been hitherto neglected as well as in-depth diachronic studies of individual languages. Colleagues interested in participating in the workshop are invited to send a one-page abstract (preferably pdf) to one of the organizers before the end of December, 2005. The workshop will take place during the International Morphology Meeting in Budapest. hans.christian.luschuetzky at univie.ac.at franz.rainer at wu-wien.ac.at Further details on the workshop will be available on H. Ch. Lusch?tzky's homepage in due course: http://homepage.univie.ac.at/hans.christian.luschuetzky/ From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Sep 12 07:12:14 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 01:12:14 -0600 Subject: Winnebago Aspiration In-Reply-To: <001e01c5afd4$1e6796c0$e5650945@JIMM> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > It may be coincidence or an earlier pronunciation, but Dorsey consistantly > has no "h" for the following: > hina'ge (woman) > DOR ina'ge > hina's^age (old woman) > ina'sh^age DOR > ha'xoje (ashes) > DOR a'xoje > > I believe I've noted other instances, ... The first two IO examples here are presumably cognate with one of Long's problem Winnebago forms, hinuNk 'woman'. The Wi and IO forms here are suggested to be reflexes of the PMV form *wiN(h)-, but even if initial *w becomes h and and an intrusive r between iN and what follows provides the n, it's not clear where we get the final -uNk(e) < *-uNk(a) from. The CSD suggests influence from *i-yuNke 'his/her daughter'. From goodtracks at gbronline.com Tue Sep 13 01:20:16 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:20:16 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was an E-MELD conference for the purpose of standardizing the documentation of languages, especially endangered languages. Many people are all ready well into the composing of their particular language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a number of standards, called "best practices", which includes writting all dictionaries, and other language work using unicode fonts. The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem of corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC system to another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents etc. that one writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the same will be received and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was exactly written at the source of origin.PC person Of course, that will happen now when any PC shares the same fonts as the sender. Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My initial Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was written with a Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an antique system. Those records composed on the Tandy can no longer be read by my present PC. Fortunately, I had already converted them to a higher windows version, Yet, in some cases, accents and several special fonts where mutated irregardless. What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary work and may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over again in the Unicode fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations imposing their national language on the minority languages, Tagalog, English, Japanese, et.al., on the individual Filipino, the Native American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or the Ainu. The plan for a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the course for the minority community language to become an endangered language, and with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps it is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, especially those who have had to already go back into their documents and reedit the whole work. Jimm From wablenica at mail.ru Tue Sep 13 04:54:05 2005 From: wablenica at mail.ru (Constantine Chmielnicki) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:54:05 +0400 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: Hello Jimm, Was that the problem of the incompatible information carrier (diskette etc.) or the weird character coding? If the former, the problem is hard to fix, I'm afraid - you have to find the Tandy system that'd support both proprietary and IBM PC compatible formats If the latter, the problem can be solved with character conversion - in case the coding can be deciphered, for example, if the texts are a mixture of ANSI code (plain English ABC letters) and some nonstandard codes for letters with diacritics. I checked Google and found out that "The Tandy 1000 was a line of more or less IBM PC compatible home computer systems produced by the Tandy Corporation for sale in its Radio Shack chain of stores" --Then your problems are not serious, I hope. The massive character conversion can be done, for example, with CC, Consistent Changes program, available at www.sil.org. You can send a sample file to me or somebody acquainted with CC (or similar software), and I'll make the special file, conversion table, for it. The latest version of CC is quite user-friendly. You launch the program, select the conversion table file (say, IOM.cct), select the source and destination file and within second the conversion is done. In CC you can convert the text into UTF8 Unicode format that is understood by modern Windows and MS-Word. (Although I prefer to work with some plain ABC substitutes for Unicode, as s^ for "esh", converting to Unicode in the end.) Perhaps additional problem may arise if the texts are not in "plain text format" but in some proprietary format with some formatting information (fontfaces, font sizes, bold / italcs, etc.) added. Then additional work to strip the text of these formatting stuff should be done. If it is similar to Bushotter (+TA*KU T'HEPYA*PI KEYA*PI'? , NA'4 U'4* PAHA* KI'4 HE* ), or even with some weird (but consistently added) characters, then it is OK. Toksha akhe Constantine Chmielnicki wablenica at mail.ru ======= At 2005-09-13, 05:20:16 you wrote: ======= >I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was an E-MELD >conference for the purpose of standardizing the documentation of languages, >especially endangered languages. >Many people are all ready well into the composing of their particular >language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a number of standards, >called "best practices", which includes writting all dictionaries, and other >language work using unicode fonts. >The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem of >corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC system to >another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents etc. that one >writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the same will be received >and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was exactly written at the source of >origin.PC person Of course, that will happen now when any PC shares the >same fonts as the sender. >Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My initial >Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was written with a >Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an antique system. Those >records composed on the Tandy can no longer be read by my present PC. >Fortunately, I had already converted them to a higher windows version, Yet, >in some cases, accents and several special fonts where mutated irregardless. >What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary work and >may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over again in the Unicode >fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations imposing their national language >on the minority languages, Tagalog, English, Japanese, et.al., on the >individual Filipino, the Native American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or >the Ainu. The plan for a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the >course for the minority community language to become an endangered language, >and with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps it >is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, especially those >who have had to already go back into their documents and reedit the whole >work. >Jimm > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Constantine Chmielnicki wablenica at mail.ru 2005-09-13 From goodtracks at gbronline.com Tue Sep 13 13:27:28 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:27:28 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Constantine Chmielnicki" To: Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:54 PM Subject: Re: UNICODE UPDATTING > Hello Jimm, > > Was that the problem of the incompatible information carrier (diskette > etc.) or the weird character coding? Constantine! Thanks for your excellent reply. Perhaps, I wasn't clear to say the the problem has been resolved several years ago. I did a conversion as you mentioned which brought everything up to date. So there is no longer a problem. And I have been able to continue with the reformatting of the dictionary. I just wondered if the new government emphasis to change to a set standard is presenting a problem for others in general. Presently, I use a font which is standard and has the accents and a few additional characters. I have John's Siouan fonts, viz., SsDo SIL DoulosL installed. I use two characters from this set on formal papers -- the glottal stop (0216 stroke) and the "inge" (0223). However, I usually do not use them in transmittion, except under a PDF Adobe format, as they will alter on the PC of the receiver, most of which do not have the Siouan font. Irregardless, your information is worth printing out and keeping for further need and reference. Jimm As I changed PCs from the earlier From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 21:35:54 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:35:54 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: I've been working on the Papers of George Washington and came across in a letter of 1777 the phrase "three Tribes low down upon the Missisipi viz. the Ukafpaw Tuckepaws and Oyayachtanu's 2000". Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. The editor identifies the Tuckepaws as Atakapas, which seems reasonable. For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant of the full form of Wea? Thanks, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Sep 14 22:01:18 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:01:18 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <432897BA.50304@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant > of the full form of Wea? Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable is also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you need them, Alan. Michael From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Sep 14 22:16:52 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:16:52 -0700 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized /h/ preceding the /p/. This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. David > > Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 23:42:18 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:42:18 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Costa wrote: > The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. > I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized > /h/ preceding the /p/. > > This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other > records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough south to associate with the Quapaw? Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Sep 14 23:55:24 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:55:24 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <1126735278.43289daf00057@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable is > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you need > them, Alan. Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: Oiatinon 1698 Weachtheno 1711 Wawioughtanes 1757 Warraghtinook 1759 Waggueoughtennees 1759 Waweaugtenno 1760 Wawiachta 1761 Wawayoughtinne 1762 Yaughtanou 1764 Wyahtinaw 1784 Weautenaus 1814 I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". Best, Alan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 11:37:30 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:37:30 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <4328B86C.8070706@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Alan, Here are a couple more (usual) English transcriptions of "Ouiatanon"" Quaxtana 1749-1755 (Lewis Evans) Quaaghtena (date unknown) (appears in Hiram Beckwith's work--1st president of the Illinois Historical Society) Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. Also, Dave's comment about the f is right on target. Preaspiration was heard by Europeans who occasionally attempted to transcribe it--with a variety of symbols. I've never really followed the transmississipian movements of the Wea after they left the Indiana area. The tribe, as a whole, established two villages on the lower Wabash, at Terre Haute, between 1786-1791. Another group, led by Noel Dagenais, a native speaker of Miami-Illinois and a metis, lived on Big Raccoon Creek, a Wabash tributary somewhat near Terre Haute, until 1846, then went to Kansas. Michael Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for the > > > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last syllable > is > > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you > need > > them, Alan. > > Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as > well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: > > Oiatinon 1698 > Weachtheno 1711 > Wawioughtanes 1757 > Warraghtinook 1759 > Waggueoughtennees 1759 > Waweaugtenno 1760 > Wawiachta 1761 > Wawayoughtinne 1762 > Yaughtanou 1764 > Wyahtinaw 1784 > Weautenaus 1814 > > I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". > > Best, > > Alan > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 11:41:50 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:41:50 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: <1126784250.43295cfaa088b@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Meant to say "(unusual)". Regrets. Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > Alan, > > Here are a couple more (usual) English transcriptions of "Ouiatanon"" > > Quaxtana 1749-1755 (Lewis Evans) > > Quaaghtena (date unknown) (appears in Hiram Beckwith's work--1st president of > > the Illinois Historical Society) > > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. > > Also, Dave's comment about the f is right on target. Preaspiration was heard > > by Europeans who occasionally attempted to transcribe it--with a variety of > symbols. > > I've never really followed the transmississipian movements of the Wea after > they left the Indiana area. The tribe, as a whole, established two villages > on > the lower Wabash, at Terre Haute, between 1786-1791. Another group, led by > Noel Dagenais, a native speaker of Miami-Illinois and a metis, lived on Big > Raccoon Creek, a Wabash tributary somewhat near Terre Haute, until 1846, then > > went to Kansas. > > Michael > > Quoting "Alan H. Hartley" : > > > > Indeed it is. The -ch- is seen in both French and English documents for > the > > > > > spelling of French "Ouiatanon"? A non-nasalized vowel in the last > syllable > > is > > > also seen. I can dig up (practically literally) examples of these if you > > need > > > them, Alan. > > > > Many thanks, Michael. I've got lots of variants on the long form (as > > well as David Costa's etym.) but none in oyaya-: > > > > Oiatinon 1698 > > Weachtheno 1711 > > Wawioughtanes 1757 > > Warraghtinook 1759 > > Waggueoughtennees 1759 > > Waweaugtenno 1760 > > Wawiachta 1761 > > Wawayoughtinne 1762 > > Yaughtanou 1764 > > Wyahtinaw 1784 > > Weautenaus 1814 > > > > I also wondered whether the Weas ever got "low down upon the Missisipi". > > > > Best, > > > > Alan > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 12:44:25 2005 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:44:25 +0100 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Didn't Daviot or Gravier meet an old Quapaw man in about 1700 somewhere near the Arkansas River (I may be wrong on that point, though) who could communicate with them in what they described as Peoria (but which could have been Wea)? Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 15 14:27:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:27:21 -0700 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated /p/. >> I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a semi-labialized >> /h/ preceding the /p/. >> This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in other >> records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. > Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. > On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough > south to associate with the Quapaw? I see no indication of it in either Tanner's atlas or the Handbook, but that doesn't mean some stray band of Weas didn't wander down to Arkansas at some point. Dave From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:30:58 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:30:58 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony, It was Marquette and Jolliet et al. who met a Michigamea man, who could speak Miami-Illinois, living among Dhegiha near the mouth of the Arkansas River. I forget whether if was Quapaw or some other group he was with. Michael Quoting Anthony Grant : > Didn't Daviot or Gravier meet an old Quapaw man in about 1700 somewhere > near the Arkansas River (I may be wrong on that point, though) who could > communicate with them in what they described as Peoria (but which could > have been Wea)? > > Anthony > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the > use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and > all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, > distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the > intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify > Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. > However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business > communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are > virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure > that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any > loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 15 14:38:03 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:38:03 -0700 Subject: Wea Message-ID: The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed. I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Also, don't forget Ojibwe 'Detroit', given by Baraga. This and the M-I forms can be compared to Shawnee /waawiyawhtanwi/ 'water circles around'. Incidentally, there's a joke among the Miamis nowadays that "'Wea' is short for 'We Ah Miami'". Dave > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:43:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:43:06 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There actually seems to have been an intimate connection between Miami- Illinois speakers and Dhegiha speakers. For example, it is thought the Michigamea were originally a Dhegiha-speaking group that come under the roof of the Illinois subtribes in late prehistory. I think John Koontz, in fact, mentions that at his website. In the 1700s Illinois residency and hunting extended far down the western side of the Mississippi valley and contact with Dhegiha speakers is a given. Perhaps it should be said in this connection that the Wea, of all the Miami subtribes, were the most friendly with the Illinois historically. Quoting David Costa : > >> The Miami-Illinois name for the Quapaw is /kaahpa/, with a preaspirated > /p/. > >> I'd wager the 'f' is not a misreading, but a mishearing of a > semi-labialized > >> /h/ preceding the /p/. > > >> This phenomenon of /hp/ being heard as [fp] is seen here and there in > other > >> records of Miami-Illinois, e.g., Hockett's fieldnotes. > > > Thanks, David: that's great, especially with Hockett. > > > On the subject of Miami-Illinois, did the Wea in particular get far enough > > south to associate with the Quapaw? > > I see no indication of it in either Tanner's atlas or the Handbook, but that > doesn't mean some stray band of Weas didn't wander down to Arkansas at some > point. > > Dave > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 15 14:53:29 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:53:29 -0500 Subject: Wea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting David Costa : > The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is > 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of > Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed It was given to Dunn by Gabriel Godfroy, an authoritative source, in the form "wiatanongi" (leaving out accent marks and a part of my memory. I think you have it in your databank.) Then, perhaps that "i" was a slip on Dunn's part. At the same time, for the French to have created "Ouia-" in "Ouiatanon" from Miami-Illinois /waayaah-/ is quite unusual. Hmmm. . > > I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember > where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Yup. It's in Thwaites, JR 58:23. Ainsi soit-il. It looks rather Ojibweyan. From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Sep 15 15:08:36 2005 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:08:36 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: > Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. I'd reckon that English speakers generally unfamiliar with velar fricatives have written them all sorts of ways, but I've seen 'f' before. There's an old Kaw census listing Hard Chief (Gahige Wac^c^exi) as Ki-he-ga-wah-chuffe. From daynal at nsula.edu Thu Sep 15 15:19:40 2005 From: daynal at nsula.edu (Dayna Lee) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:19:40 -0500 Subject: Wea Message-ID: I got it as far as the office before the flood. I'll put it in the mail today. -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:38 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Wea The phonemic form of the tribe name is /waayaahtanwa/; /waawiyahtaanwi/ is 'eddy'; /waayaahtanonki/ (the locative of the first term) was the name of Ouiatenon. I don't think phonemic */wiyaahtanonki/ existed. I have an old French form for the word 'Ouaouiatanoukak'. I don't remember where I got it, probably from McCafferty. Also, don't forget Ojibwe 'Detroit', given by Baraga. This and the M-I forms can be compared to Shawnee /waawiyawhtanwi/ 'water circles around'. Incidentally, there's a joke among the Miamis nowadays that "'Wea' is short for 'We Ah Miami'". Dave > Incidentally, there are three forms of this toponym/ethnonym on record > for > Miami-Illinois: /waayaahtanonki/, /waawiaahtanonki/ and /wiyaahtanonki/. Note > also that the term is generic in meaning ('at the whirlpool person') that it > appears elsewhere, historically, in reference to other people. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 20:54:10 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:54:10 -0700 Subject: College Uses Rap Music to Preserve a Language Message-ID: Howdy, I thought many on the list may be interested in this recent news story. Jonathan Rap Song Aimed at Native American Teens The Washington Times 12 Sept. 2005 SISSETON, SD (UPI) -- A new rap song is aimed at encouraging young Native Americans to learn their native language. Tammy DeCoteau, director of the American Indian language programs for the Association of American Indian Affairs, has been trying to find new ways to expose young people on the Lake Traverse Reservation to their ancestral language, the Fargo (N.D.) Forum reported. The latest project is a rap song with Dakota lyrics. "We're trying to get the language where you wouldn't ordinarily see it -- through music or games, anywhere we can get their attention," said DeCoteau. She said the popularity of rap music among young adults and children made it an obvious vehicle to kindle interest in Dakota, which is spoken fluently by a dwindling number of the tribe's elders. DeCoteau and others at Sisseton-Wahpeton College in Sisseton, S.D., who were involved in the project, believe "Wicozani Mitawa" or "My Life" is the first rap song recorded in the Dakota language. More than 250 compact discs containing the song have been distributed free of charge to young people on the reservation. ************************************************************ Taken from: http://newspad.prweb.com/pr/20058/pr274894.html College Uses Rap Music to Preserve a Language The first rap song ever recorded in the Dakotah language is being used to help revitalize the endangered langauge. This is one of many language revitalization projects that the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the Association on American Indian Affairs has produced that has reached out to Dakota youth, helping to ensure a new generation of Dakotah speakers and keep alive the traditional language. Agency Village, SD (PRWEB) August 21, 2005 -- The first rap song ever recorded in the Dakotah language was produced in a joint effort by the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the Association on American Indian Affairs. The rap song, titled ?Wicozani Mitawa,? or ?My Life,? was recorded at a studio on the Sisseton Wahpeton College campus in Sisseton, SD, on the Lake Traverse Reservation. College President, Dr. William Harjo Lone Fight, a nationally renowned figure in the field of Native language restoration, hailed the song for its creativity and importance. ?For a language to flourish it has to be used. That is the bottom line. This son helps bring Dakota into the 21st century as a living language with relevance to our youth.? SWC and AAIA are encouraging everyone to make a copy of the CD so the Dakotah language can be heard by as many Dakota youth as possible. ?The entire concept behind this project is to create a way to have an entire generation of young people actually hear Dakotah being used,? Director of the Native Language Program for AAIA, Tammy Decoteau, said. The Dakotah lyrics for the song were first written in English by Sisseton-Wahpeton Dakota member Tristan Eastman. The lyrics were then translated into Dakotah and edited by Dakota elders Orsen Bernard, Edwina Bernard, Wayne Eastman, Olivia Eastman, V. June Renville, and Delbert Pumpkinseed. With the translation in hand, Tristan Eastman performed the song in Dakotah to music written by Tim Laughter. The collaboration between elders and youth resulted in a Dakotah rap song that is the first of its kind, putting the words and feelings of today?s youth into the Dakotah language to create an authentic voice. ?Some of the Dakotah words had really deep meaning and when translating we were trying to interpret what that young person [Tristan Eastman] was saying and put a lot of positive thinking in there, but at the same time expressing what he felt,? translator Orsen Bernard said. The original plan for the Dakotah rap song was to create ?simple rap songs for children because the children are listening to whatever it is their parents are listening to and we felt that they would respond well to rap-style songs,? DeCoteau said. But during an informal conversation DeCoteau was having with Eastman, ?He mentioned that he wrote rap songs. One of our productions was a CD of popular children?s songs, sung in the Dakotah language so the elders had already had experience in translating songs from English to Dakotah.? The result is a Dakotah rap song that older youth can find a positive cultural identity in. The Dakotah rap song is on the forefront of creatively keeping endangered languages alive and relevant to young speakers. For a language to survive it must be a powerful medium for new generations of speakers to express themselves in with the confidence that they will be heard. The Dakotah language, in its struggle for survival and relevancy with Dakota youth, is now being used in one of American culture?s most dominant forms of expression, rap music. Such creative steps act as an invitation for Dakota youth to engage with and learn their traditional language. ?If we could reach the young people in one way or another with the words which have such deep meanings, hopefully down the road, they may look those words up,? Bernard said. There is good reason for Bernard to be hopeful that combining the traditional language of the Dakota people with mainstream culture will work. After 12 year old LaRelle Gill first heard the Dakotah rap song, she said, ?This is really cool. I could learn how to speak Dakotah by listening to this song.? The partnership between the Sisseton Wahpeton College and the AAIA has created several Dakotah language revitalization projects that have taken advantage of modern media to reach Dakota youth, including books, PowerPoint presentations, DVDs, CDs, an animation piece that was nominated for Best Animation at the Native Voices Film Festival, and now a rap song. AAIA and Sisseton Wahpeton College are encouraging free dissemination of the rap song to anyone who is interested. The CD with liner notes is also available through the SWC bookstore for $5, with 100 percent of the profits going back into future Dakotah language projects like the rap song. The point is not to make a profit, but to save a language, as Decoteau said, ?The CDs are created with the message printed clearly on both the CD and the sleeve, to make copies and share them simply in order to allow for as many people as possible to hear the Dakotah language.? # # # Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 15 21:24:23 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:24:23 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Sorry, I've been out of town. The "F" in Quapaw even turns up sporadically in semi-speakers of the '60's and '70's. It's a mishearing of [x] or an inability to replacate it on the part of monolingual Europeans. Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f], often said to be of Northumbrian origin (and, no, it doesn't matter to me where the English sound change really originated). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan H. Hartley Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 4:35 PM To: Siouan Subject: Quappa I've been working on the Papers of George Washington and came across in a letter of 1777 the phrase "three Tribes low down upon the Missisipi viz. the Ukafpaw Tuckepaws and Oyayachtanu's 2000". Has anyone seen an -f- in Quappa? I wonder if it's a misreading of -h-. The editor identifies the Tuckepaws as Atakapas, which seems reasonable. For the Algonquianists: might Oyayachtanu be a slightly garbled variant of the full form of Wea? Thanks, Alan From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 15 21:40:42 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:40:42 -0500 Subject: Quappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of > 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f] Good point. The change in English (that of London, at least) was mostly accomplished in 15-16c, though 'thurf' appears for 'through' in 13c. Alan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Sep 15 22:03:56 2005 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:03:56 -0500 Subject: Quappa Message-ID: Yeah, it's supposed to have been only following rounded vowels, but there's clearly some dialect mixing involved. There is no attestation of any fluent Quapaw speaker making the substitution however. It was either a Euro-American phenomenon or a very late semi-rememberer of the language. It's all [x] in Dorsey and Gatschet's 19th century stuff as well as the c. 1825 list from Gen. Izard. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan H. Hartley Sent: Thu 9/15/2005 4:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Quappa Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Similar change takes place in English, after all, where the /x/ of > 'enough, rough, tough', etc. was replaced with [f] Good point. The change in English (that of London, at least) was mostly accomplished in 15-16c, though 'thurf' appears for 'through' in 13c. Alan From goodtracks at gbronline.com Fri Sep 16 03:10:01 2005 From: goodtracks at gbronline.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:10:01 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Task Force Language Report Message-ID: FOR YOUR INFORMATION ----- Original Message ----- From: "marianne Ignace" To: ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: New Task Force Language Report >> Dear friends of Language Revitalization >> > I and my fellow Task Force members have just completed a comprehensive > report to the Canadian government as requested laying our a > comprehensive basis for a long term strategy for enhancing our 60-70 > endangered languages in canada You can view, download or order copies > for free by going to ----aboriignallanguagestaskforce.ca and scrolling > down to Foundational Report...... Please pass on the info. We need to > insure Canada > implements the recommendations . You help is neededl. > thank you > chair > Task Force on Language And Culture > Ronald Ignace > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Sep 21 06:48:26 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:48:26 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1126794658.432985a242ca3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > It was Marquette and Jolliet et al. who met a Michigamea man, who could > speak Miami-Illinois, living among Dhegiha near the mouth of the > Arkansas River. I forget whether if was Quapaw or some other group he > was with. This is not quite correct, though closer than my own recollection. I had to look at the account again to recall the details to my mind. I'm using a 1966 reprint of the Thwaites edition of 1900. In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. Communications with these people were weak, perhaps by signs. They did not understand Huron and spoke an unknown language. They reported trading with Europeans to the east. They thought it worth reporting that their trade contacts played musical instruments. I mention these people because it shows the ethnic diversity of the sub-Ohio Mississippi in 1673. The next village, near the 33rd degree of latitude, was called Mitchigamea [recognizably Miami-Illinois for big-water]. "At first we had to speak by signs ['parler par gestes' in the parallel French version], because none of them understood the six languages which I spoke. At last we found an old man who could speak a little Ilinois. [In regard to the distance to the sea] we obtained no other answer than that we could learn all that we desired at another large village, called Akamsea, which was only 8 or 10 leagues lower down. [They are accompanied there by their translator.] We fortunately found there a young man who understood Ilinois much better than did the interpeter whom we had brought from Mitchigamea." Presumably the new translator was a native of Akamsea, which seems to have been Cappa (Okaxpa or 'Downstream'). The Akamsea indicated that they traded through nations to the east of them, or through an Illinois village four days to the west. This latter village was apparently not the Mitchigamea village, which a day to the north. A short description of the Akamsea follows including the comment "Their language is exceedingly difficult, and I could succeed in pronouncing only a few words notwithstanding all my efforts." ["Leur langue est extremement difficile, et je ne pouvois venir about d'en prononcer quelques mots, quelque effort que je pusse faire."] Once an Algonquianist, always an Algonquianist, I guess! A pity he didn't essay to write down some of those words he could pronounce, not to mention some examples of Michigamea. After spending some time at Akamsea, the Expedition decided to return north, feeling ill-prepared to deal with hostile gun-armed people to the south, or th Europeans beyond them, and perhaps taking the hint that the Akamsea preferred that they not go further and open relations with the Akamseas' enemies to the south. It may be added that Marquette visted the Peoria and Kaskasia et al., coming and going and seems to have been familiar with Miami-Illinois, or perhaps a pidgin form of it. He says of the Illinois "They are divided into many villages, some of which are quite distant from that of which we speak, which is called peouarea [Peoria]. This causes some differences in their language, which on the whole resembles allegonquin, so that we easily understood each other." One presumes that his six languages includes at least Huron, Alleqonquin (Eastern Ojibwa), and perhaps Miami-Illinois, if he distinguished it from the former. The La Salle Expedition in 1686 used Guides from Cappa, the northernmost Quapaw (Akansea) village on the Mississippi to pass throught he hostile Michigamea lands to the Illinois villages on the Illinois River. In the 1750s Jean-Benard Bossu, while living among the Michigamea recorded two somewhat strangely translated sentences from weird contexts which he attributed one to a Michigamea man and the other to a group of Peoria men. Neither sentence is Miami-Illinois, apparently, but it is possible to interpret them as a sort of Siouan with approximately the senses he gives. More precisely, with several valuable suggestions from Bob Rankin I have deduced fairly mundane Siouan analyses of the highly colored examples Bossu offers. However, I wouldn't call the results Dhegiha, let alone Quapaw. They have points in common with both Dhegiha and Ioway-Otoe, and some with other Siouan languages further afield, like Mandan. However, whatever it is, it stands alone. The main morphological oddity is that there appears to be a circumfixal negative construction *we-...=s (?), cf. Mandan wa-...=riN-x ~ wa-...=xi, though circumfixal negatives are also known from, e.g., Winnebago and Southeastern. In Mandan the choice of final element depends on the shape of the embedded stem. The final element *=s (?), is present once and missing once in the "Michigamea," which may be simple carelessness. The Mandan and Michigamea final elements are both perhaps comparable to Dhegiha =z^i NEG, Stoney/Assiniboine =s^i NEG, Dakotan =s^i 'adversative', Winnebago =z^i 'at least'. This *we-...=s negative pattern which I think to recognize in Michigamea should be compared to Dakotan =s^niN NEG (Stoney and Assiniboine =s^i), Dhegiha =z^i NEG, and IO =s^kuNni (later =skuNyi) NEG. Compare also Winnebago =s^guNniN 'weak dubitative' and (haN)ke ...=niN NEG. Even without the prefixal we- the Michigamea negative is not of a known pattern, though in my view it is reasonably comparable in form and could derive from the same complex of elements that appear variously combined in the attested Siouan negatives. The point here is that this hypothetical Michigamea negative is different from the negatives in known Mississippi Valley Siouan languages, so that it doesn't seem that Michigamea falls into any of these subgroups. I could make the same observation with regard to several other aspects of Michigamea, but perhaps this suffices for present purposes. To summarize, - "Michigamea" is reported to be a mysterious language other than Miami-Illinois in the 1670s and 1750s, even though there is by the c. 1700 also a somewhat distinctive Michigamea version of Miami-Illinois, too, as I understand it (Masthay 2002). - This mysterious "Michigamea" language might be Siouan, given the two sentence examples in Bossu. One would have to say, in fact, it is Siouan that it is Mississippi Valley Siouan. Since the morphology is in the range attested for MVS or the more MVS aspects of Mandan, but not Crow-Hidatsa or Southeastern. sTILL, it definitely isn't any of the attested MVS languages or even sub-branches. It is odd enough that it would be hard to call it either Dhegiha or Chiwere - the latter in the sense of a sub-branch containing Ioway-Otoe and maybe Winnebago. If one did, it would stretch the understanding of the sub-branch adopted very considerably. Apart from the somewhat weak linguistic evidence we can tell from all acounts of the Michigamea in the late 1600s that they are politically distinct from the Arkansas/Quapaw and also from the Illinois, even though both the Arkansas/Quapaw and Michigamea have some people among them who speak Miami-Illinois, and even though the Michigamea later merge quietly with the Illinois. Of course, who knows how bad Bossu's Michigamea was. Even taken as Siouan the presentation seems a bit less than fluent, though there's very little of it. Not really enough to judge certainly. There is no extant word list. If Bossu's grasp of the langauge was truely wretched, he might be trying to represent something better known in the Siouan way, e.g., one of the Dhegiha languages, even Ioway-Otoe, though probably not Miami-Illinois or Winnebago or Dakota or Mandan. However, I think the negative precludes this. Maybe he just made it up because he couldn't remember any real Miami-Illinois? But then why the ghostly resemblance to a Siouan language? Since some of the attested speakers are Peorias, maybe it's Peoria, not Michigamea, or Peroria-Michigamea? The last seems unlikely, as the Peoria were plainly speaking an Algonquian language to Marquette, though he records only placenames, personal names, and one line of a song. But then why does Bossu attribute half his Michigamea to Peoria speakers? Looking at the problem from another direction, what languages might Bossu have known and substituted for Michigamea? And why not Miami-Illinois? How could he have missed MI if it was being spoken around him as it presumably was and had something of the status of a lingua franca? If he chose to use a minority language spoken only by some Michigea, why supply only these two bizarre sample sentences and not a word list? Why not mention the minority status? Why no trace of distinctive Michigamea personal or place names? The whole subject is plagued with uncertainty, unfortunately. It occurs to me that we don't even really know if the two Michigamea groups - Marquette's and Bossu's - were the same. "Big water" is certainly a fairly generic name, and, e.g., it is also the gloss usually offered as a Siouan gloss for the otherwise unknown Moneton on the upper Ohio. As far as that goes, if the Ofo may have moved from the Ohio Valley to Arkansas by 1690, might not the Monetons have done so, too? Naturally, if Moneton was Siouan and if the 'big water' gloss of the ethnonym is correct, then any Moneton translator rendering the name into Mimai-Illinois would have come up with Michigamea without any qualms. However, our only real evidence of a Siouan identity for Marquette's non-MI Michigamea is Bossu's data, and so we are back to assuning the two are one, whether or not we accept the Michigamea as refugee Monetons. I discuss the Michigamea data briefly - with the full text of Bossu's examples and fairly pragmatic "translations" - at http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Sep 21 13:52:55 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bi1 at soas.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:52:55 +0000 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) From: "Bruce Ingham" Message-ID: Sorry for using the list for a personal matter, but could John please email me as I need to ask him a question Bruce From Bi1 at soas.ac.uk Wed Sep 21 16:40:47 2005 From: Bi1 at soas.ac.uk (Bruce Ingham) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:40:47 +0000 Subject: call for John Koontz Message-ID: Sorry for using the list for a personal matter, but could John please email me as I need to ask him a question. Meaning John Koontz of course Bruce From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 13:20:03 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:20:03 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. Wheeler-Voegelin has suggested that these people were Shawnee, although there is nothing but circumstantial evidence to support her belief. > Communications with these people were weak, perhaps by signs. They did > not understand Huron and spoke an unknown language. They reported trading > with Europeans to the east. They thought it worth reporting that their > trade contacts played musical instruments. I mention these people because > it shows the ethnic diversity of the sub-Ohio Mississippi in 1673. > > The next village, near the 33rd degree of latitude, was called Mitchigamea > [recognizably Miami-Illinois for big-water]. "At first we had to speak by > signs ['parler par gestes' in the parallel French version], because none > of them understood the six languages which I spoke. At last we found an > old man who could speak a little Ilinois. [In regard to the distance to > the sea] we obtained no other answer than that we could learn all that we > desired at another large village, called Akamsea, which was only 8 or 10 > leagues lower down. [They are accompanied there by their translator.] We > fortunately found there a young man who understood Ilinois much better > than did the interpeter whom we had brought from Mitchigamea." Presumably > the new translator was a native of Akamsea, which seems to have been Cappa > (Okaxpa or 'Downstream'). We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since Marquette writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. > > The Akamsea indicated that they traded through nations to the east of > them, or through an Illinois village four days to the west. This latter > village was apparently not the Mitchigamea village, which a day to the > north. > > A short description of the Akamsea follows including the comment "Their > language is exceedingly difficult, and I could succeed in pronouncing only > a few words notwithstanding all my efforts." ["Leur langue est > extremement difficile, et je ne pouvois venir about d'en prononcer > quelques mots, quelque effort que je pusse faire."] Once an Algonquianist, > always an Algonquianist, I guess! A pity he didn't essay to write down > some of those words he could pronounce, not to mention some examples of > Michigamea. > > After spending some time at Akamsea, the Expedition decided to return > north, feeling ill-prepared to deal with hostile gun-armed people to the > south, or th Europeans beyond them, and perhaps taking the hint that the > Akamsea preferred that they not go further and open relations with the > Akamseas' enemies to the south. > > It may be added that Marquette visted the Peoria and Kaskasia et al., > coming and going and seems to have been familiar with Miami-Illinois, or > perhaps a pidgin form of it. Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip to the Illinois, are nicely done. He says of the Illinois "They are divided > into many villages, some of which are quite distant from that of which we > speak, which is called peouarea [Peoria]. This causes some differences in > their language, which on the whole resembles allegonquin, so that we > easily understood each other." One presumes that his six languages > includes at least Huron, Alleqonquin (Eastern Ojibwa), and perhaps > Miami-Illinois, if he distinguished it from the former. It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. However, he travaled with refugee Hurons going back east along the Lake Superior coast, so it is possible he knew something of that language. Marquette began his language studies?-beginning with Montagnais?-on the very day he arrived at Quebec from France, 20 September 1666. He then went on to study Ojibwa at Trois Rivi?res under the master Jesuit linguist Gabriel Druill?tes. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 13:29:13 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:29:13 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395203.4332af83d3f98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Quoting mmccaffe at indiana.edu: > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but does > > appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, Marquette's map reads . Sorry for the confusion. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:12:03 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:12:03 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395203.4332af83d3f98@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since Marquette > writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. I assumed the variant was insignificant. I tried to stay with Thwaites' spellings in quoting him, and I think I tended to generalize Akamsea. Akansea is correct, of course. I did tend to gibe strongly as Thwaites' spelling Ilinois! > Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half > years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I > imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was > fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big > river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, > on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip > to the Illinois, are nicely done. So he probably distinguished Miami-Illinois from other Algonquian languages? > It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. Actually, that's a good point. Marquette doesn't say who spoke Huron. Given comments earlier on Jolliet knowing the languages needed for operations in French Canada - I forget exactly how this was phrased - it may have been he who spoke Huron. It would be interesting to know what the six languages Marguette meant were, but I think we can assume that none were Siouan, though he does seem to have spent some time with people at the Bay of the Puants, which may imply contact with the Winnebago. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:26:46 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:26:46 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395753.4332b1a91a6ba@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are later > > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but > does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. > > Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, Marquette's > map reads . Sorry for the confusion. These are the folks that Swanton suggested might be the historical Ofo, partly on the grounds that *moso would become ofo in the course of regular Ofo sound shifts. This has been debated considerably. I think Bob Rankin and Ives Goddard are currently inclined to believe the association. Maybe there's something in the Moneton > Michigamea hypothesis after all, though my main reason for mentioning the Moneton was to exhibit another group with a similar name and thus to show that "big water" might occur several times independently. (So it would be especially awkward if the name *wasn't* independent.) Incidentally, although the Mo(n)so(u)pelea and Moneton are both reported as residents of the Ohio Valley, I think they are initially reported in rather different places. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:52:16 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:52:16 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: By the way, the hypothetical examples of Michigamea *we-...=s NEG are: ouaipanis *we- bni(N)-s NEG + I am + NEG 'I am not' houe'nigue' *we- ni(N)ge(- s) NEG + it lacks (+ NEG) 'it is not lacking' (in the sense 'it is satisfactory') Compare OP =bdhiN 'I am' < dhiN 'be (a kind)' and OP dhiNge' 'to lack'. Analogous OP forms might be bdhiN=m=az^i 'I am not' dhiNga=z^i 'it is not lacking' The roots and inflection are similar, but the negative morphology is different. It's possible final -s in ouaipanis is intended to be silent, in which case the negative might just be *we-..., although an entirely prefixal negative would be unusual in a Siouan language. Because of the nature of the translations Bossu offers, my specific glosses are uncertain in themselves. For example, I am proceding from indage' ouaipanis interpreted as 'je suis indigne de vivre, je ne me'rite plus de porter le doux nom de pe're' ('I am not worthy to live, I am no longer worthy to bear the sweet name of father') to indage' ouaipanis *iNdaj^e web(a)ni(s) rendered with fewer histrionics as 'I am not (his/a) father'. I then interpret the Michigamea words in that light. There's a lot in such a procedure for a skeptic to seize upon, of course. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 16:54:44 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:54:44 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127395753.4332b1a91a6ba@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage > > but does appear to name them on his map: Mo(n)so(u)pelea. Out of curiosity, does he name the Miami-Illinois village four leagues west of the Akansea? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:26:53 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:26:53 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > We know that the m of Akamsea is a mistake made by a copyist, since > Marquette > > writes Akansea on his holograph map of the Mississippi. > > I assumed the variant was insignificant. Indeed, it is, aside from not imputing the spelling to Marquette. That was point in responding to that point. I tried to stay with Thwaites' > spellings in quoting him, and I think I tended to generalize Akamsea. > Akansea is correct, of course. I did tend to gibe strongly as Thwaites' > spelling Ilinois! That is a strange one. Islinois is common historically, and Illinois, but "Ilinois," while certainly possible, is rare. > > > Marquette, previous to the Mississippi voyage, had spent two and half > > years working with an Illinois boy held as a slave by the Ojibwa. I > > imagine, given his track record with Algonquian languages, that he was > > fairly conversant in Miami-Illinois by the time he descended the big > > river. Certainly the few words from that language that he transcribed, > > on his Mississippi map and in his autograph narration of his second trip > > to the Illinois, are nicely done. > > So he probably distinguished Miami-Illinois from other Algonquian > languages? Oh, absolutely. He and Claude Allouez, confreres at Chequamegon on Lake Superior, are the first on record to hear the language. I'm pretty sure there is a Jesuit reference as to its being both Algonquian and weird (for their Algonquin-Ojibweyan-habituated ears). > > > It is never stated explicitly that Marquette knew Huron. > > Actually, that's a good point. Marquette doesn't say who spoke Huron. Well, actually I would disagree with my own point, in that Marquette did try to communicate in Huron with the Mosopelea, to no avail. Given Marquette's known facility with languages, and the Jesuits' former extensive experience with Huron, as well as his contact with Huron refugees along Lake Superior (on their return from the upper Mississippi), he probably did have some ability in the language. > Given comments earlier on Jolliet knowing the languages needed for > operations in French Canada - I forget exactly how this was phrased - it > may have been he who spoke Huron. Now, on this I would disagree, as there is scant if any evidence besides hearsay that Jolliet had any ability. He had been around the block, to Sault Ste-Marie and environs, but a factor among French officials in choosing Jolliet for the Mississippi job was that Marquette would be going along to do the language part. It would be interesting to know what > the six languages Marguette meant were, I'm not sure anyone knows all six. I've always heard the "six languages" and that's it. But Montagnais, Ojibwa and Miami-Illinois. Huron could be the fourth, in light of the circumstantial evidence, and **dialect variants** of Algonquin-Ojibwa may have been the other two. That's three of them. but I think we can assume that > none were Siouan, though he does seem to have spent some time with people > at the Bay of the Puants, which may imply contact with the Winnebago. There weren't many Winnebago to speak of by the time he arrived, though. Just a thought. Michael > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:35:45 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > > In 1673, below the Ohio on the Mississippi the the Jolliet & Marquette > > > > Expedition encountered a village of gun armed people whom they are > later > > > > informed are enemies of the Akamsea - perhaps Chickasaw, or at least > > > > particpating in the later Chickasaw trade with the English. > > > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage but > > does appear to name them on his map: Mosopelea. > > > > Mosopelea is the textbook spelling for this ethnonym. In truth, > Marquette's > > map reads . Sorry for the confusion. > > These are the folks that Swanton suggested might be the historical Ofo, > partly on the grounds that *moso would become ofo in the course of regular > Ofo sound shifts. This has been debated considerably. I think Bob Rankin > and Ives Goddard are currently inclined to believe the association. That's interesting. That was Swanton's original claim, which I think had been shelved since we don't know Siouans archaeologically in the Ohio valley. What is the basis for the return to Swanton? > > Maybe there's something in the Moneton > Michigamea hypothesis after all, > though my main reason for mentioning the Moneton was to exhibit another > group with a similar name and thus to show that "big water" might occur > several times independently. (So it would be especially awkward if the > name *wasn't* independent.) > > Incidentally, although the Mo(n)so(u)pelea and Moneton are both reported > as residents of the Ohio Valley, I think they are initially reported in > rather different places. It seems "Moneton" was discussed either by the list or by you and Bob and I at some point. Someone discussed it! :) I *think* I remember that the spelling might be a twisted "Manitou"? The ethnonym surfaces during Gabriel Arthur's Ohio valley escapade in 1673. > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 22 17:47:43 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:43 -0500 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Marquette does not name these people in his narration of the voyage > > > but does appear to name them on his map: Mo(n)so(u)pelea. > > Out of curiosity, does he name the Miami-Illinois village four leagues > west of the Akansea? > > > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look and get back to you. As an relevant aside, Campeau pointed out that Marquette's Narration and Marquette's map were intended to complement each other, which explains, for example, why, in his narration, he does not name the group he met just south of the Ohio, but on the map we see . Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 22 20:06:04 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:06:04 -0600 Subject: Michigamea is not Dhegiha (Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127411263.4332ee3f53652@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm > confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to > be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look > and get back to you. I'm not sure the Akansea village south of the Michigamea is on the Arkansas. It is probably the Cappa [Okaxpa or Ogaxpa] village mentioned by the La Salle Expedition as being on the Mississippi north of the Arkansas ten years later in the 1680s. At that time it was the last village of the Akansea before the Michigamea, going north along the Mississippi. I think this village is called Akansea by Marquette because it is the first and only village of the Akansea people he encountered, proceding south from the Michigamea. The La Salle Expedition survivor account refers to two Akansea villages on the Arkansas and two more on the Mississippi itself, with Cappa being the northernmost of the latter. Dorsey later assembled more than four Quapaw or Arkansas village names - five? seven? I forget - of which my favorite has always been ImahaN 'Upstream', both because it provides a local foil for Okaxpa 'Downstream' and because the ImahaN later merged with the Caddo, which explains why they tend to get lost in Siouan historiography. Since Okaxpa 'Downstream' (= "Quapaw" < "Cappa, Quappa") is actually upstream on the Mississippi, relative to the rest of the villages, my suspicion is that it must have been named while located at the mouth of the Arkansas (or maybe even south of the Arkansas), while ImahaN was probably "up" along the course of the Arkansas. Of course, Okaxpa 'Downstream' tends to be interpreted in terms of position relative to the rest of the Dhegiha languages, especially the UmaNhaN or "Omaha" ['Upstream'] people, but, by the time that interpretation appears, all of the Quapaw villages but ImahaN had merged with Okaxpa, and the ImahaN had more or less disappeared into the Caddo. Since the only mentions of ImahaN are later, it's not clear that it existed yet in the late 1600s, or, if it did, it may have been overlooked, perhaps because it was merged temporarily with another village. As far as Marquette calling a particular Quapaw or Arkansas village Akansea, he earlier refers to the Peoria village mostly as the Illinois village. I was getting ready to give up on identifying it when he finally mentioned that it was specifically the village of the Peoria people. I believe that Marquette visited a number of Illinois villages, even without counting the Michigamea as Illinois, so maybe his calling Cappa "Akansea" has nothing to do with it being the first or only Akansea village he encountered. I thought it was interesting that the Marquette & Jolliet and La Salle Expeditions both seemed to distinguish the Michigamea from the Illinois. The La Salle Expedition survivors seem to have used Quapaw guides to get past the Michigamea without visiting them at all. The Quapaw were evidently on good terms with the Illinois, but not the Michigamea. This echoes the claim of Marquette that the Akansea were trading with an Illinois village to their west. The Mons8pelea aren't mentioned in the La Salle Expedition account, at least not in connection with going from Cappa to the Illinois. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Sep 23 22:01:58 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:01:58 -0500 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) Message-ID: > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > > Marquette names 8 or 9 nations or villages up the Arkansas, but I'm > > > confident he named no Miami-Illinois-speaking village. I don't happen to > > > be carrying a copy of the map with me at the moment. :) But I'll look > > > and get back to you. > > > > I'm not sure the Akansea village south of the Michigamea is on the > > Arkansas. > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas River. Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on the map: ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA MATORA | | AKOROA PAPiKAHA | | 8MAM8ETA TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA PANIASSA AiAiCHi Far to the east of the AKANSEA is APISTONGA > It is probably the Cappa [Okaxpa or Ogaxpa] village mentioned > > by the La Salle Expedition as being on the Mississippi north of the > > Arkansas ten years later in the 1680s. At that time it was the last > > village of the Akansea before the Michigamea, going north along the > > Mississippi. I think this village is called Akansea by Marquette because > > it is the first and only village of the Akansea people he encountered, > > proceding south from the Michigamea. > Remember that Marquette has both (Quapaw) and KANSA (Kaw) on his map. KANSA, however, is located up in the western Missouri River watershed group of ethnonyms on his map. > > > The La Salle Expedition survivor account refers to two Akansea villages on > > the Arkansas and two more on the Mississippi itself, with Cappa being the > > northernmost of the latter. Dorsey later assembled more than four Quapaw > > or Arkansas village names - five? seven? I forget - of which my favorite > > has always been ImahaN 'Upstream', both because it provides a local foil > > for Okaxpa 'Downstream' and because the ImahaN later merged with the > > Caddo, which explains why they tend to get lost in Siouan historiography. > > > > Since Okaxpa 'Downstream' (= "Quapaw" < "Cappa, Quappa") is actually > > upstream on the Mississippi, relative to the rest of the villages, my > > suspicion is that it must have been named while located at the mouth of > > the Arkansas (or maybe even south of the Arkansas), while ImahaN was > > probably "up" along the course of the Arkansas. > You don't suppose these could be Ohio valley names? > > > > > Of course, Okaxpa 'Downstream' tends to be interpreted in terms of > > position relative to the rest of the Dhegiha languages, especially the > > UmaNhaN or "Omaha" ['Upstream'] people, but, by the time that > > interpretation appears, all of the Quapaw villages but ImahaN had merged > > with Okaxpa, and the ImahaN had more or less disappeared into the Caddo. > > > > Since the only mentions of ImahaN are later, it's not clear that it > > existed yet in the late 1600s, or, if it did, it may have been overlooked, > > perhaps because it was merged temporarily with another village. > > > > As far as Marquette calling a particular Quapaw or Arkansas village > > Akansea, he earlier refers to the Peoria village mostly as the Illinois > > village. I was getting ready to give up on identifying it when he finally > > mentioned that it was specifically the village of the Peoria people. > Yes. He points it out specifically on his map. > I > > believe that Marquette visited a number of Illinois villages, even without > > counting the Michigamea as Illinois, so maybe his calling Cappa "Akansea" > > has nothing to do with it being the first or only Akansea village he > > encountered. > After leaving the Miami-Mascouten town on the upper Fox River, Marquette and Co. visited only two **Miami-Illinois-speaking** villages--Peoria, on the Des Moines River north of Wayland in Clark County, Missouri, on the outbound trip and the Kaskaskia on the upper Illinois River on the return trip. That was it. Apparently "METCHiGAMEA" was not Miami-Illinois-speaking. In fact, Marquette expressed the exploration team's amazement at not finding any sign of people at all between the time two Miami guides left the Frenchmen at the Fox River/Wisconsin River portage and until the Frenchmen found footprints at the Mississippi's edge at the mouth of the Des Moines River. They would have taken this break at the mouth of the Des Moines, since they'd just naviagated miles of rapids at that point on the Mississippi. When they found the footprints, Marquette and Jolliet left the five other Frenchmen at the Mississippi with the canoes and walked up the Des Moines until they came upon the Peoria. Marquette says that they walked right up to the first village without anyone's even noticing them, but then decided, at the last minute, that they'd better announce their arrival. Larry Grantham has excavated the Peoria sites--there are two of them, mentioned as such by Marquette. See Grantham, Larry. ?The Illinois Village of the Marquette and Jolliet Voyage of 1673.? The Missouri Archaeologist 54 (1993): 1-20. Very interesting article. > > > > > I thought it was interesting that the Marquette & Jolliet and La Salle > > Expeditions both seemed to distinguish the Michigamea from the Illinois. > > The La Salle Expedition survivors seem to have used Quapaw guides to get > > past the Michigamea without visiting them at all. The Quapaw were > > evidently on good terms with the Illinois, but not the Michigamea. This > > echoes the claim of Marquette that the Akansea were trading with an > > Illinois village to their west. The Mons8pelea aren't mentioned in the La > > Salle Expedition account, at least not in connection with going from Cappa > > to the Illinois. > > > > La Salle met *a* Mosopelea at some point in his excursions. I can find that citation, John, if you would like. My question about the Metchagamia is how come, even though by around 1700 there are terms identified by the Jesuits as coming from the Metchagamia dialect of Miami-Illinois that are quite Algonquian, we have a village called "METCHIGAMEA" in the July of 1673 where only one person speaks Miami-Illinois. Michael From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 23 23:04:29 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:04:29 -0600 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: <1127512918.43347b56bf944@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas River. > > Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river > itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on the map: > > ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA > > MATORA | | > AKOROA > PAPiKAHA | | > 8MAM8ETA > TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA > > > PANIASSA AiAiCHi Oh, of course. This is the list Bob Rankin discusses in identifying the De Soto Expedition's Pakaha/Capaka as Papikaha and thus probably as Tunica. I'll have to go back and look at the LaSalle 1686 list, because I don't recall them mentioning any of these places, which I think are mostly identified as Tunican. And this makes it seem that there was only one Akansea village in 1673. > Remember that Marquette has both (Quapaw) and KANSA (Kaw) on his > map. KANSA, however, is located up in the western Missouri River watershed > group of ethnonyms on his map. Yep, so the Kansa and Arkansas [Akansea] a/k/a Quapaw [Okaxpa] are as distinct in 1673 as in 1873 or 1973, whatever the etymological connection between the names. > You don't suppose these [up and downstream names] could be Ohio valley > names? One can't tell what stream is relevant from the names. > After leaving the Miami-Mascouten town on the upper Fox River, Marquette > and Co. visited only two **Miami-Illinois-speaking** villages--Peoria, > on the Des Moines River north of Wayland in Clark County, Missouri, on > the outbound trip and the Kaskaskia on the upper Illinois River on the > return trip. That was it. Apparently "METCHiGAMEA" was not > Miami-Illinois-speaking. > La Salle met *a* Mosopelea at some point in his excursions. I can find that > citation, John, if you would like. Sure, if it's easy. > My question about the Metchagamia is how come, even though by around > 1700 there are terms identified by the Jesuits as coming from the > Metchagamia dialect of Miami-Illinois that are quite Algonquian, we have > a village called "METCHIGAMEA" in the July of 1673 where only one person > speaks Miami-Illinois. This split personality situation is a mystery to me, and one reason I am leery of the Bossu materials. It is also the reason I got to wondering suddenly last week if there were two different "Big Water" peoples, especially as I had just thought of the Moniton in this connection, too. Let's consider the question of whether there is any Michigamea/Moniton connection as separate. The initial linguistic issues would make perfect sense if the Marquette 1673/La Salle 1686 period Michigamea were one group, and the group (near the Kaskaskia?) in 1700 and thereafter were another. The first, non-MI group would simply have disappeared. Their name would be recorded in MI form because it was obtained from MI speakers (bilinguals, apparently) living among the Michigamea and Akansea. The later MI Michigamea would be a slightly later offshoot of one the early attested Illinois groups or a homonymous Illinois group extant earlier not reported earlier. Unfortunately, that awkward Bossu data comes from the latter group, I think, and there is a clear continuity between the 1700 (1708?) village the early Jesuits knew and the 1750s village Bossu spent time in. It's certainly tempting to think of the Bossu data as explaining Marquette's experience. To fit the three bits together we could assume that sometime not long after 1686 the Michigamea became allied with the Illinois - perhaps due to a military defeat or an epidemic - and began a rapid process of assimilation to them. We would have to assume that as a result, some 20 years later fluent MI speakers were easy to find among the Michigamea, which is not too hard to believe. That's a span of about a generation. What is a bit hard to believe is that that 70 years after LaSalle (50 years - two more generations - after fluent MI speakers became common) you could still find speakers comfortable enough with the original Michigamea language that they would teach it to visitors in preference to MI. We would also have to assume that the Jesuits on the one hand, and Bossu on the other, simply failed to notice - or at least mention - this bilinguality, and that Bossu went to so far as to put Michigamea into the mouths of the Peoria. Or perhaps some Peoria actually knew the language and used it in his presence, which seems less likely. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that Bossu made up his examples for some reason. In other words, there were two "Big Water" groups, or, if only one, its assimilation to the Illinois was most likely completed early on, before Bossu came on the scene, so that Bossu would have had no exposure to the original Michigamea language. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Sep 25 17:52:14 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:52:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd:...(Re: Quappa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > John, Marquette locates "AKANSEA" opposite the mouth of the Arkansas > River. > > > > Then, to the west going up the Arkansas--but not necessarily on the river > > itself-- in order, are the following. I've arranged them as they appear on > the map: > > > > ATOTCHASi METCHiGAMEA > > > > MATORA | | > > AKOROA > > PAPiKAHA | | > > 8MAM8ETA > > TANiK8A ------------| | AKANSEA > > > > > > PANIASSA AiAiCHi > > Oh, of course. This is the list Bob Rankin discusses in identifying the > De Soto Expedition's Pakaha/Capaka as Papikaha and thus probably as > Tunica. Do you have the citation for Bob's work? I'll have to go back and look at the LaSalle 1686 list, because I > don't recall them mentioning any of these places, which I think are mostly > identified as Tunican. And this makes it seem that there was only one > Akansea village in 1673. Delanglez did a very good treatment of the La Salle expedition of 1682. Delanglez went off the track in importants respects with the Marquette material (errors later corrected by Campeau), but he did fine and important work on La Salle. From FurbeeL at missouri.edu Wed Sep 28 19:49:25 2005 From: FurbeeL at missouri.edu (Louanna Furbee) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:49:25 -0500 Subject: UNICODE UPDATTING In-Reply-To: <004a01c5b801$52620200$6c650945@JIMM> Message-ID: >Jimm, Quick reply. EMELD is an excellent set of practices (you can read about them on the E-MELD web site - you can google it). I recomment it. They'll probably have other workshops. Write them to get on a list to be notified about them. Write to Helen Dry (hdry@ LinguistList.org, I think is the address). Louanna >I was looking over government grants, and it seems that there was >an E-MELD conference for the purpose of standardizing the >documentation of languages, especially endangered languages. >Many people are all ready well into the composing of their >particular language dictionary. The E-MELD conference proposes a >number of standards, called "best practices", which includes >writting all dictionaries, and other language work using unicode >fonts. >The thought is a good one, that one would no longer have the problem >of corruption in the transferr of fonts/ characters from one PC >system to another. In whatever manner, fonts, diacritics, accents >etc. that one writes in using Unicode (Latest version 4.0.0), the >same will be received and viewed upon the receiving PC, as it was >exactly written at the source of origin.PC person Of course, that >will happen now when any PC shares the same fonts as the sender. >Some of us encountered this problem as we upgraded systems. My >initial Ioway ~ Otoe-Missouria Dictionary, a Siouan Language, was >written with a Tandy's from Radio Shack, Inc, which is now an >antique system. Those records composed on the Tandy can no longer >be read by my present PC. Fortunately, I had already converted them >to a higher windows version, Yet, in some cases, accents and >several special fonts where mutated irregardless. >What is the thoughts of those who are well into their dictionary >work and may be confronted with the task of redoing it all over >again in the Unicode fonts. Is it not unlike the large nations >imposing their national language on the minority languages, Tagalog, >English, Japanese, et.al., on the individual Filipino, the Native >American and Spanish/ Chinease Americans or the Ainu. The plan for >a standard is well meant, but devaluation sets the course for the >minority community language to become an endangered language, and >with that, a whole culture world view and way of thinking. Perhaps >it is not the same thing. What are the thoughts of others, >especially those who have had to already go back into their >documents and reedit the whole work. >Jimm -- Prof. N. Louanna Furbee Department of Anthropology 107 Swallow Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 USA Telephones: 573/882-9408 (office) 573/882-4731 (department) 573/446-0932 (home) 573/884-5450 (fax) E-mail: FurbeeL at missouri.edu From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 29 14:37:29 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:37:29 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity Message-ID: Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 15:08:21 2005 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:08:21 -0700 Subject: paduka identity Message-ID: I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did not mean 'slave' in Miami-Illinois. Morever, the 'Patoka' were not a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic) group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the high plains. The Miami name for the Comanche is paatoohka, the Shawnee name for them is paatohka, and the Fox name for them is paatoohka(aha). This term has no etymology in Algonquian. Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the discussion of the term in HNAI 13. David ---------- From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" To: "Siouan List" Subject: Fw: paduka identity Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 29 15:42:57 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <009e01c5c503$517234a0$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: > Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the > Patoka/Paduca The name originally and most commonly meant the Plains Apaches, and later (19c.) occasionally the Comanches. (Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII. (2001) 903). The English name is < Fr Padouca (cf. quot. 1718), prob. < a Siouan (presumably Dhegiha) name; cf. Osage hpatoNkka, Omaha Ponca ppatoNkka. (based on e-mail from Robt. Rankin & John Koontz, March 1999, and on F. W. HODGE Hdbk. Amer. Indians I. (1907) 328 9). "Pawnee" was often used in the sense of an Indian captured by other Indians and sold into slavery among white settlers, but I haven't seen Paduka used that way. Alan Hartley From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Sep 29 15:53:06 2005 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:53:06 -0500 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There were people with this name as a last name at Kaskaskia, e.g., , a person on one of the 18th-century Detroit Jesuit missionary Pierre Potier's rosters of people living at Detroit whose name was , and, according to a hear-say I'm still tracking, there was a Wabash Valley Kickapoo leader known by this name. One or none of these may be connected to "Patoka River," a relatively good sized eastern tributary of the southern Wabash, the name for which appears to be unattested in the French sources. I imagine the "slave" folk definition came from the notion that Comanches were sometimes traded into the Miami-Illinois slave network. But I don't know. Michael Quoting David Costa : > I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did not mean 'slave' in > Miami-Illinois. > > Morever, the 'Patoka' were not a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the > term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic) > group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North > American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it > was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the > Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the > high plains. > > The Miami name for the Comanche is paatoohka, the Shawnee name for them is > paatohka, and the Fox name for them is paatoohka(aha). This term has no > etymology in Algonquian. Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It > is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at > this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and > etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the > discussion of the term in HNAI 13. > > David > > > ---------- > From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" > To: "Siouan List" > Subject: Fw: paduka identity > Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am > > > Aloha All, > Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the > Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La > Flesche source. > Mahalo! > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry Haglan > To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: paduka identity > > mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that > when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the > term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old > Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the > meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark > thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde > article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be > the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know > for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a > screenplay. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland > To: Barry Haglan > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: paduka identity > > Barry, > the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are > a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great > Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are > classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan > > This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I > cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley > appearance or the "slave" aspect. > > In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca > are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their > buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until > a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for > peace. > > Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, > and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry Haglan > To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM > Subject: paduka identity > > dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, > told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the > Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in > Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh > genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only > thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds > like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Sep 29 17:09:12 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:09:12 -0600 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <1128009186.433c0de2714ea@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > There were people with this name as a last name at Kaskaskia, e.g., > , a person on one of the 18th-century Detroit Jesuit > missionary Pierre Potier's rosters of people living at Detroit whose > name was , and, according to a hear-say I'm still tracking, > there was a Wabash Valley Kickapoo leader known by this name. One or > none of these may be connected to "Patoka River," a relatively good > sized eastern tributary of the southern Wabash, the name for which > appears to be unattested in the French sources. There are similar references to Padouca as a surname in the various collections of papers on Spanish Missouri. There are nearly cognate, but probably borrowed, forms of *hpatohka ~ *hpatuNhka (or *hpataNhka ?) in Mississippi Valley Siouan (sans Dakota). In some cases the ethnic gloss is fairly vague. Comanche is the usual specific modern gloss and the ethnohistorical consensus seems to be that it earlier referred to the Plains Apache. The Comanche replaced the Plains Apache over their western plains range in the 1700s, and by the 1800s indigenous recollections of the Apache per se had disappeared, while the nature of the references in the early literature are sometimes vexed. However, the Spanish evidence makes it clear that various varieties of Apaches and perhaps others (including the Kiowa, one assumes) were replaced in the Texas Panhandle to eastern Colorado stretch in the 1700s by the Comanche. Essentially the term means 'foreigners from the western plains and those who have similar cultures' just as variants on *hpariN ~ *hpaRariN "Pawnee" means 'foreigners from the southern plains and those who have similar cultures'. There might well be some underlying linguistic appreciation of both terms, though clearly the Padouca shift from Athabascan Apaches and other to Numic (Uto-Aztecan) Comanches. I think Pani-terms are sometimes found applied to some of the Caddo as well as to the Northern Caddoan groups. It is tempting to identify the first element in these names as *hpa 'head', and the *doNhka variant of the second part of Padouca may mean 'stubby, rounded', while the *riN ~ *RariN second part of Pawnee resembles terms for tobacco. However, I'd have to say that we don't really understand the etymology or even the propagation process for either term. The similarity of the initials may be spurious, and the variants for Padouca suggest folk etymology at work busily making sense of the senseless. I've run into people who claim Padouca is from English "paddock," but I don't believe it myself! There is also a proposal that Pani as "slave" is at least partly derived from Saponey which seems much more potentially interesting, though I'm not sure the evidence is there. In that case "Pani" as an ethnonym might even be from Saponey, though it might still be a case of accidental honophony. (I can look up the names of the individuals in question if desired.) History has a certain number of cases of ethnic names developing into terms for "slave" or acquiring other low prestige significations and the reverse (barbaros > Berber?). I think "slave" may actually be an example of this, if it's from S(k)lavos "Slav," though I'm not sure I'm current on that debate. I suspect in this particular case Padouca is being confused with Pani as a term for "slave." I think by the time the spelling Pawnee was current this association was a thing of the past. The early trade (pre 1800?) in native North Americans as slaves tends to be overlooked, I think. I don't know how extensive it was, but I keep running into passing references to it. From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 17:09:00 2005 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:09:00 -0700 Subject: Fw: paduka identity In-Reply-To: <009e01c5c503$517234a0$eb315d81@unl.edu> Message-ID: Mark, The following information may helpful or add more questions, since I have found sources that identify the Padouca or Paducah Indians as being Plains Apache, Comanche, Caddo, and a sub-tribe of Chickasaw. I find all of it interesting. Jonathan 1. In the book published in 1988 titled "The Pawnee Indians" by George E. Hyde (Volume 128 in the The Civilization of the American Indian Series - ISBN: 0-8061-2094-0) there is a section of the Appendix that talks about the Padouca Indians, as noted by the following quote from a review of the book..."One item of special interest is the section of the appendix discussing the true identity of the Padouca Indians so often mentioned in early French accounts." - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. I do not know what it says, as I do not have the book in my library. However, perhaps you could track it down. 2. According to Antoine-Simon Le Page du Pratz in his work titled, ?A Map of Louisiana, with the course of the Missisipi? in The History of Louisiana, or of the western parts of Virginia and Carolina. London, 1763, he presents the first published account of Etienne Veniard de Bourgmont?s expedition to the Padouca Indians, or Plains Apaches, in 1724. See: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/lewis_clark/exploring/ch4-22.html 3. Transcribed from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward. "Jackson County, Kansas is one of the counties formed by the first territorial legislature in 1855, is located in the second tier south from Nebraska, and the second west from Missouri. It is bounded on the west by Pottawatomie county, on the south by Wabaunsee and Shawnee, on the east by Jefferson and Atchison, and on the north by Nemaha and Brown. It is 1,172 feet above the level of the sea. The first exploration in the regions that afterward became Jackson county was by M. De Bourgmont and his company of Frenchmen who made a journey in 1724 through the lands of the Kansas to the Padouca Indians. He passed through Jackson county in going from a point above Atchison to the Kansas river just west of Shawnee county." See: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/j/jackson_county.html 4. "In 1719 the Comanche are mentioned under their Siouan name of Padouca as living in what now is west Kansas. It must he remembered that from 500 to 800 miles was an ordinary range for a prairie tribe and that the Comanche were equally at home on the Platte and in the Bolson de Mapimi of Chihuahua. As late as 1805 the North Platte was still known as Padouca fork. At that time they roamed over the country about the heads of tile Arkansas, Red, Trinity, and Brazos rivers, in Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas." See: http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/comanche/comanchehist.htm 5. "The Comanche belonged to the Shoshonean linguistic family, a branch of Uto-Aztecan, its tongue being almost identical with that of the Shoshoni....Padouca, common early name, evidently from the name of the Penateka band." See: http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/texas/comancheindianhistory.htm 6. Early Topeka Historical Outline. See: http://www.christian-oneness.org/topeka/histout.html Native American Period, ? to 1825 Native peoples before 17th Century appear to have been Caddoan, "black" Indians, the Padouca. Kansa Indians arrived mid-17th Century. The Padoucas appear to first have been driven to the west end of the Kansa?s new range, where they were pressed against the Pawnee (a "black" Apache people). By 1800, the Padouca had been largely assimilated into the Kansa and Pawnee. Kansa are a Dhegiha Sioux people, a "white" Native American tribe likely originally from area of present inland North Carolina, more or less. Migrated due to pressure from English settlements. Prior to arriving at destination, were once one people with the Omahas; these groups diverged late in their migration. Also related culturally, linguistically and genetically to the Osages, Poncas, Qapaws and Missouria. 7. "The City of Paducah, Kentucky is situated on the southern bank of the Ohio River in the north central portion of McCracken County. Now the county seat of McCracken County, Paducah owes its humble start to General George Rogers Clark, the famous Revolutionary War hero and older brother to William (of Lewis and Clark fame). Clark claimed 37,000 acres at the mouth of Tennessee River in 1795. After a land dispute with a local family, the U.S. Supreme Court granted the land in question to Clark, who promptly platted a town at the northernmost point of what is now the Tennesse Tombigbee Waterway. General Clark named the town Paducah in honor of the Padouca Indians, a peaceful subtribe of Chickasaws." See: http://www.kentucky-real-estates.com/paducah-homes-for-sale/cityprofile.htm 8. From the Journals of de Bourgmont, See: http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0112_00.html The Journals of de Bourgmont ?ttienne de Veniard, sieur de Bourgmont was the first known white man to systematically explore the Missouri River basin and was the first to record his findings. After leaving France a convicted juvenile delinquent, Bourgmont settled in Canada and joined the military. When an Indian attack on Fort Pontchartrain (near modern day Detroit) damaged Bourgmont's reputation, the acting commander escaped to the wilderness. He lived with Indians for years at a time and became a notorious and powerful figure among the them, eventually becoming the king's personal envoy to the tribes that complicated France's desire for western expansion. The following journal entries chronicle Bourgmont's expedition to negotiate peace between and among the French, Pawnee, Oto, Kansa, and Padouca (or Plains Apache) Native American tribes. 9. From the Paducah, Kentucky History prepared by Professor John E.L. Robertson states: "The birthplace of Paducah at the confluence of the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers is just 12 miles below the Cumberland River and 25 miles above the broad Mississippi. Paducah is rightfully called the "River City." It 1779 George Rogers Clark's small army landed on the Illinois shore just below the site of Paducah to attack British posts in Illinois. With only 150 men Clark captured for Virginia [and the emerging United States] all territory north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi to the Appalachian Mountains. This feat was the greatest victory of any American commander in the Revolution. Clark noted the site of Paducah as a good location for a town at a later date. In 1795 Clark purchased a Treasury Warrant from Virginia and located a claim on the Ohio and along the Tennessee in an attempt to recoup his personal finances; however, hostility of the Chickasaw prevented any further development during his lifetime. President James Monroe purchased the land between the Tennessee and the Mississippi rivers in what is now Kentucky and Tennessee from the Chickasaw in 1818. Isaac Shelby of Kentucky and Andrew Jackson of Tennessee represented the United States in these negotiations. Shelby was ill most of the time so Jackson did much of the work. In recognition, the treaty is known locally as the Jackson Purchase. The Senate ratified the treaty in 1819 but settlement was delayed due to a boundary dispute with Tennessee and to a deep depression that discouraged Kentuckians. Tennessee pushed ahead to open the Purchase area so that they could exploit what is now Memphis. Kentucky did not sell land beyond the Tennessee River until 1821. However, prior claims under Virginia were recorded. In fact,! two families claimed what is now Paducah. The Porterfield claim was based on a military warrant that normally took precedent over treasury warrants such as that of the Clark claim that now was held by Willliam Clark [of Lewis and Clark fame]. It took a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1844 to resolve the dispute. In the meantime, William Clark took up the establishment of a town at the mouth of the Tennessee River. On April 27, 1827, William Clark wrote a letter to his son, Meriwether Lewis Clark, announcing that he was leaving St. Louis for the mouth of the Tennessee River to found a town that was to be named for the Pa-du-cah [a change in spelling from the French Padouca.] This tribe was "once the largest nation of Indians known in this country, and now almost forgotten." Enemies of the Padoucas received arms from France, Spain, and Great Britain and reduced the once proud people to slaves. William wished to perpetuate the memory of this gallant people corrupted by contact with! European civilization and made certain that people could pronounce the name by using the English spelling." See: http://www.paducahky.com/history.html 10. Lastly, comes the following two reviews of George Bird Grinnell's paper: See: http://www.publicanthropology.org/Archive/Aa1920.htm Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were The Padouca? American Anthropologist 1920 Vol.22: 248-260. George Bird Grinnell?s objective in this article is to examine historical documents in hopes of determining the true identity of the Padouca. Grinnell identifies the Padouca as indigenous peoples who lived in the "central plains from the Black Hills region south to the Arkansas or beyond" (1920:248). For Grinnell, the primary question is whether or not the Padouca peoples are the same as the Comanche peoples recorded in these documents. He provides an extensive list of historical accounts from Spanish and French expeditions during the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century, which mention the Padouca or indigenous groups living around the area outlined above. However these accounts do not correspond, primarily due to conflicting names and areas. For example Grinnell refers to old maps that contain the word Padouca located in slightly different locations, as well as records from the expeditions of Lewis and Clark in the early nineteenth century that record names that ! they only interpret as representing the Padouca. In addition, Grinnell concludes based upon the majority of the documents that the Padouca most likely have lived in sedentary villages, while the Comanche are not recorded to have had permanent dwellings or to have been agriculturalists. Yet the author insightfully acknowledges that much of this information is composed of statements reported second hand, and therefore "generally must not be taken too literally" (1920:253). After reviewing these various sources, Grinnell finds no reasonable basis to assume that the Padouca were in fact the Comanche, and surprisingly states therefore they must be regarded as Apache. I feel Grinnell falls short in this additional conclusion as there does not appear enough documentation provided in order to make such an assumption. Grinnell provides numerable documents to support this conclusion, however it is somewhat difficult to keep track of all the various expeditions and exactly where the various ind! igenous groups were thought to have lived. CLARITY: 4 JAIME HOLTHUYSEN University of British Columbia, Vancouver, (John Barker) Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were the Padouca? American Anthropologist, 1920 Vol.22: 248-260. This article is mainly concerned with finding out which North American Native group is the most likely candidate for the Padouca, a name that has long since been obsolete. The only remnants of this name come from eighteenth-century maps of the central plains region and early accounts by explorers and inhabitants of the area and its surroundings. Some regard the Padouca as the Comanche, the Cataka, or the Apache, among others. The Comanche, amongst them all, are thought most often to be the Padouca. Grinnell spends a great portion of his article trying to refute this claim. He reports that a Frenchman by the name of Bourgmont, who was passing the area that is said to be where the Padouca resided, noted that the group of people living in this area lived in houses for most of the year and also had some sort of agriculture. This is contrary to the Comanche, as told by the Pawnees, who did not live in permanent or semi-permanent houses or engage in agriculture.The great American explorers Lewis and Clark believed that the Padouca were actually the Cataka. Grinnell simply invalidates this claim by stating that Lewis and Clark received most of their information of the plains Indians second-hand by other Indians and men who had been around the area. Since they did not see themselves, then there can be no factual basis for their claim. In the mind of the author, the most likely candidate for the Pado! uca are the Apache. He states that the Apache, like the Padouca, had the same kind of living arrangements; semi-permanent to permanent housing with agricultural means of survival. At the very end of the article, Grinnell states that there is no definite evidence of the actual identity of the Padouca, but he is convinced that the Apache, not the Comanche, are the winners. CLARITY RANKING: 2 ZANETA L. MARTINEZ University of Texas at San Antonio (James H. McDonald) Mark-Awakuni Swetland wrote: Aloha All, Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source. Mahalo! Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM Subject: Re: paduka identity mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland To: Barry Haglan Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: paduka identity Barry, the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect. In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace. Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River. Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: paduka identity dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS! Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Thu Sep 29 17:28:25 2005 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:28:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: paduka identity Message-ID: Aloha all, Thanks for the rapid and quite detailed responses to the Paduka inquiry. I have forwarded those messages not already sent to Barry. Mahalo nui, Mark Awakuni-Swetland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Sep 29 17:44:49 2005 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:44:49 -0500 Subject: paduka identity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz John E wrote: > I think "slave" may actually be an example > of this, if it's from S(k)lavos "Slav," It is: see the good etymology article from the Amer. Heritage Dict. at http://www.bartleby.com/61/62/S0466200.html Alan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 13:10:06 2005 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:10:06 +0100 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <433C2811.3010709@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Since Willem deReuse's interesting paper at our last conference about morphological resemblances between Siouan and Athabaskan, I'm becoming interested in resemblances between Lakota and Cree. Obviously (I suppose) any resemblances there are would be the result of contact or linguistic diffusion and not cognates. One feature that I note is that both have, though not to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. My La Flesche volume on Omaha is not very clear on the point. My Ojibway does not reveal such a system and my English-Crow dictionary is not clear on the point. So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or interrogative-indefinites? Yours Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rwd0002 at unt.edu Fri Sep 30 13:45:18 2005 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:45:18 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <20050930131006.48283.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting shokooh Ingham : > Dear Siouanists > Since Willem deReuse's interesting paper at our last > conference about morphological resemblances between > Siouan and Athabaskan, I'm becoming interested in > resemblances between Lakota and Cree. Obviously (I > suppose) any resemblances there are would be the > result of contact or linguistic diffusion and not > cognates. One feature that I note is that both have, > though not to the same extent, the phenomenon of > interrogative-indefinites. (...)> Thank you Bruce. As everyone realizes, I am sure, my Siouan-Athabascan paper was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, to show the ways in which superficial comparison can always yield some intriguing results. As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Sep 30 17:32:08 2005 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:32:08 +0200 Subject: interrogative -indefinites Message-ID: > (Willem): As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} << This phenomenon even exists in good old (esp. vernacular) German: "Was sagst du da?" (What are you saying here?) vs. "Ich sag' dir was." (I tell you something). "Wo warst du denn?" (Where have you been?) vs. "Ich bin wo gewesen, wo's sehr sch?n war." (I was somewhere where it's been very nice) etc. Alfred From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Sep 30 19:33:47 2005 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:33:47 -0600 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: <20050930131006.48283.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, shokooh Ingham wrote: > One feature that I note is that (Dakota and Cree) both have, though not > to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. > Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku > 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan > 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota > and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the > interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. > ... So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. > Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or > interrogative-indefinites? Hopefully the Caddoanists and Algonquianists on the list can clarify the extent to which this pattern occurs elsewhere in those families. In Mississipppi Valley Siouan I believe the pattern is universal. I'd be going out on a limb without looking to extend this to Crow-Hidatsa, Mandan, and Southeastern. However, the *ta- (and/or *to-) morpheme is not always the base for interrogative/indefinites. It does occur outside of Dakotan, cf. Winnebago j^aagu' 'what' (j^aa- < *ta) or Omaha da'daN 'what' (da- < *ta-), but other interrogative/indefinite bases occur. (I think *pe for 'who/someone' is pan-Siouan.) The alternative to *ta-/*to- in Dhegiha is *(h)a-, cf. OP a'naN 'how many/some number', or a'gudi 'where/somewhere'. (The *h surfaces in Osage, Kaw, and Quapaw. The same rare initial pattern occurs with *(h)aNp- 'day', incidentally.) The OP a- forms are opposed to awa(N)- which is something like 'which of two'. I don't recall if this latter set have indefinite uses, but I'd expect them to. Not all a- forms match awaN- forms. In fact, I think the lists are somewhat skewed and essentially non-productive, though, since they often include definite articles and postpositions, the lists are long. I'm thinking of forms like athedi/awaNthedi 'where/which place of two'. Some question words look like they might be derived from standard demonstrative forms, e.g., OP e?aN 'how' or eattaN - something like 'what [unfortunate]'. I think that these may involve focus constructions historically, cf. French qu'est-ce que. In other words, e?aN is 'how is it that ...'. There are some diffferences in interrogative/indefinite usage. I think that of the alternatives dadaN/edadaN/iNdadaN for 'what' the first is more likely to be indefinite. Also, I think there are some similar differences for accent in e'be/ebe' 'who'. I haven't noticed any similar patterns for other forms, though there are some low frequency, speaker-restricted uses of ?aN as 'how'. (Perhaps a limited sort of dialect variation?) Dorsey's texts are a nice place to look for differences in distribution. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Fri Sep 30 20:01:16 2005 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (lcumberl at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:01:16 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While we're on the subject, I found and interesting contrast between Lakota and Assiniboine with these words. Lakota makes a realized/potential distinction, thus:'taku/ta'kul, as in: 'taku icu he 'what did he take?' vs. ta'kul icukta he 'what will he take' Assiniboine doesn't have that distinction but makes a distinction between non-specific-indefinite and specific-indefinite, thus: 'taku/ta'kux, as in 'taku eyaku he 'what did he take?' vs. ta'kux 'eyaku he 'what, specifically, did he take?' and 'taku 'eyakukta he' what will he take' and ta'kux eyakukta he 'what, specifically, will he take?' There are also the pairs, tuwe/tuwex and tukte/tuktex, but not tona: *tonax Linda > On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, shokooh Ingham wrote: > > One feature that I note is that (Dakota and Cree) both have, though not > > to the same extent, the phenomenon of interrogative-indefinites. > > Lakota has this to a very highly developed extent with its T-words taku > > 'what, something', tuwe 'who, someone', tuktel 'where, somewhere', tohan > > 'when, sometime' etc. Cree has it but not to such a degree as Lakota > > and they even begin with T- in some cases. I was wondering whether the > > interrogative-indefinites also ocur in other Siouan-Caddoan languages. > > ... So first question is do other Siouan languages have T-words. > > Second question is are they interrogatives, indefinites or > > interrogative-indefinites? > > From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Sep 30 20:23:02 2005 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:23:02 -0500 Subject: interrogative -indefinites Message-ID: Yes, and in Slavic too, and I believe in Japanese (?) and even in the probably Yiddish-influenced English of many of the people I grew up with (You've got what to eat? i.e. do you have something to eat, when sending someone off on an outing where they might want to take a snack along) * this doesn't make it any less interesting, however! On the contrary, something this widespread is obviously a deep and significant phenomenon; not something that just happened to occur in one language, but something that's happened over and over in the history of human languages. Catherine >>> ti at fa-kuan.muc.de 9/30/2005 12:32 PM >>> > (Willem): As far as interrogative-indefinites are concerned, I think you will find the phenomenon quite common cross-linguistically. Apache, and I think most if not all Athabascan languages, also have interrogative-indefinites. :} << This phenomenon even exists in good old (esp. vernacular) German: "Was sagst du da?" (What are you saying here?) vs. "Ich sag' dir was." (I tell you something). "Wo warst du denn?" (Where have you been?) vs. "Ich bin wo gewesen, wo's sehr sch?n war." (I was somewhere where it's been very nice) etc. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: