From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 5 09:28:21 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 05:28:21 -0400 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami was identified by the Jesuit Claude-Jean Allouez and Pierre-Charles Delliette, a French teenager who lived among the Wea (a subtribe of the Miami), as and , respectively. This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio valley or Mississippian Siouan language. Thank you. Michael McCafferty From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 5 18:14:50 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:14:50 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: <20060405052821.muqzcdoesog4wkco@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > and ... > > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. The best I can say until I can look through some dictionaries is that it is reasonably shaped to be a Siouan form, in terms of phonetic content, phonological canons, and potential morphology. I just don't recognize the root. Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' instrumental, and tika is the root. It would also be a fairly reasonable onomatopeic bird call. Isn't there a usual explanation somewhat along those lines? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 8 19:39:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:39:20 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > > and ... > > > > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. > > Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, > reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration > or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' > instrumental, and tika is the root. Some possibilities: IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly documented area in IO and Winnebago. IO raj^e 'call by name' An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that works out. IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, not c^hege) I'll look further, but this may be some help. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 9 15:46:19 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:46:19 -0400 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for your thoughts, John. To be honest, though, I think this is a dead horse, at least for now. Michael Quoting Koontz John E : > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: >> > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] >> > and ... >> > >> > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was >> > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio >> > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. >> >> Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, >> reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration >> or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' >> instrumental, and tika is the root. > > Some possibilities: > > IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' > (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') > > This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. > However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I > believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly > with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly > documented area in IO and Winnebago. > > IO raj^e 'call by name' > > An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that > works out. > > IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' > > (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, > not c^hege) > > I'll look further, but this may be some help. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 11 02:23:37 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:23:37 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: <20060409114619.nqgmmnz3ms0wosc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Thanks for your thoughts, John. To be honest, though, I think this is a > dead horse, at least for now. Not being entirely certain why the horse died, before I give up, you were aware that t > c^ / __ [e, i] in IO? And in Winnebago t > c^ in all contexts? Here t and c^ refer essentially to the classes dental and alveopalatal. Another possible root is *hteeka 'new, recent'. Granting that 'to rub with the mouth' = 'to tell old news' feels like a form that might come and go, it is never the less fairly common to find forms in which 'by mouth' applied to an adjectival or nominal root has the force 'to speak of as ...; to characterize as ...'. My stock example is OP dhaxube 'to speak of as holy' < xube 'holy'. > Michael > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > >> > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > >> > and ... > >> > > >> > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > >> > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > >> > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. > >> > >> Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, > >> reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration > >> or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' > >> instrumental, and tika is the root. > > > > Some possibilities: > > > > IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' > > (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') > > > > This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. > > However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I > > believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly > > with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly > > documented area in IO and Winnebago. > > > > IO raj^e 'call by name' > > > > An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that > > works out. > > > > IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' > > > > (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, > > not c^hege) > > > > I'll look further, but this may be some help. > > > > > > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 18 19:00:16 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:00:16 -0500 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. Message-ID: This was in the Indianapolis paper last week. I substituted "Kaw" for "Iroquois" in the original. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Immigrants.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 256383 bytes Desc: Immigrants.jpg URL: From lameen at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 21:23:10 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:23:10 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: Hi everybody, I'm currently working on an essay on reduplication in Siouan-Catawban, a topic that I gather has been discussed here at least twice previously, from a historical-typological perspective. I was wondering if anyone could tell me: * Does anyone know of any examples of Tutelo reduplication other than the three given by Horatio Hale? * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than Boas' for Ponca? * Does reduplication ever occur in Hidatsa? * If Randolph Graczyk is on this list, I was wondering whether he could maybe upload a copy of his paper somewhere? It would be great to be able to cite a better source on Crow reduplication than the rather unhelpfully brief two I've found so far. * Does Blair Rudes's grammar of Catawba have a working title by which I can cite it? (or is it published yet? I'm referring to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=SIOUAN&P=R3513&I=-3 ) Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to send a copy after I finish it next week. Thanks for your help, Lameen Souag -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 18 22:10:33 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:10:33 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: > I'm currently working on an essay on reduplication in Siouan-Catawban, a topic that I gather has been discussed here at least twice previously, from a historical-typological perspective. I was wondering if anyone could tell me: > * Does anyone know of any examples of Tutelo reduplication other than the three given by Horatio Hale? If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. She consulted what unpublished field notes of Hale's and Dorsey's there were. > * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than Boas' for Ponca? Carolyn Quintero's Osage Grammar, Univ. of Nebraska Press, just new last year, is the best treatment of any language in this subgroup. Other work is unpublished and contributors may be able to help you further. > Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) Well, that's 3 of the 4 major subgroups. With those attested, it's hard to imagine it isn't the same in Mandan. Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. I haven't tried to analyze them semantically. Some are clearly iterative actions, but others seem to be sort of continuing states with no notion of renewed action of the verb. And 'mulberry' is a noun of course, but it may somehow be deverbal. The font here is Times New Roman set to display Unicode (without which some characters may not display correctly). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- á*-tu-tu-e 'be cooking' aba´-p?-p?-to´pi ~ iba´p?to´pi 'I shoot'. causative is fused and no longer inflected. cichi?*ti Sw tci?tchi´nti - to crawl; ref. p. 329. e´-te-te 'sick, keep on suffering'. Iterative or continuative aspect. ?pak-li´*-li-hi 'roll, roll it!' f?´tf?te Sw fá?tf?te - to whistle; infl. baf?tf?te 'I whistle'; tcafá?tf?te 'you whistle'.; ref. p. 323. f?f?n?ki Sw f?f?n?ki - mulberry (Creole: murier); ref. p. 323. ka-la-la 'make a ringing sound by striking' lolohi, lólohe Sw lolohi - to run (like water); e.g. a´nic lo´lohe, ani´c lalo´hi; trans. the water runs; e.g. a´nic lo´lohe afhi´hi; trans. the current; ref. p. 326, under lo pa*n?ná*hi Sw pan?na´hi - to sift; infl. bapan?na´hi 'I sift'.; ref. p. 328. pophúti Sw pophû´ti - to swell or puff out; infl. bapophû´ti 'I swell or puff out'; tcapophû´ti 'you swell or puff out'.; ref. p. 328. May not be reduplication. sni-sni-we 'itch', iterative. This verb may also be causative (-we), but if it is, the tasí*shihi Sw tasi´shihi - to whine; infl. batasi´shihi 'I whine'; tcatasi´shihi 'you whine'; e.g. atchû´ñki tasi´shihi; trans. the dog whines; ref. p. 330. t?tá*hi Sw t?ta´hi - to shake or tremble; infl. bat?ta´hi 'I shake or tremble'; tcat?ta´hi 'you shake or tremble'.; ref. p. 329, under tahi. tó*fkufkupi Sw to´fku^fku^pi - to wink, to blink; infl. bato´fku^fku^pi 'I wink or blink'; tcato´fku^fku^pi 'you wink or blink'.; ref. p. 331. The illegible Swanton forms here had both a macron and a circumflex over the /u/ in the card file. tú*f?fha, duf?fha, tuf?fhahi Sw tu´f?fha, duf?fha, tuf?fhahi - to tear; infl. batu´f?fha 'I tear'; tcatu´f?fha 'you tear'.; ref. p. 331. up-lé-le-hi 'swing', presumably iterative. Bob Rankin From BARudes at aol.com Tue Apr 18 22:14:49 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:14:49 EDT Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: Lameen, The working title for my Catawba grammar is the rather unoriginal title "Catawba Grammar and Texts". I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lameen at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 17:01:52 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:01:52 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of > Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. > That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I > located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the > most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. > That would be great. Lameen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 19 17:17:55 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:17:55 -0700 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So true! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: This was in the Indianapolis paper last week. I substituted "Kaw" for "Iroquois" in the original. Bob --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 19 17:36:35 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <375f01a70604191001x63e99763p5b39bd6902d3d064@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? > You may want to try UMI Dissertation Services. I think you can just Google UMI and it comes up. You can order dissertations from them. I ordered the Oliverio dissertation myself through them. It costs about $40 US. Dave Lameen Souag wrote: If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. That would be great. Lameen --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 19 21:06:55 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:06:55 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: You can order American dissertations from University Microfilms International in Ann Arbor, Michigan. (The company may have changed its name, but you should be able to Google it). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Lameen Souag Sent: Wed 4/19/2006 12:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. That would be great. Lameen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Apr 20 02:06:10 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:06:10 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > You can order American dissertations from University Microfilms > International in Ann Arbor, Michigan. (The company may have changed > its name, but you should be able to Google it). http://proquest.com/brand/umi.shtml Alan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 23 16:07:10 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:07:10 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents from other Siouan languages of: taku 'what, something" tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when. sometime' tona 'how many, some' tokhel 'how, somehow' tokha 'what happened, something happened' Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose meaning has changed. Hope you can help Yours Bruce Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Apr 23 18:15:21 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:15:21 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan > Dear Siouanists > I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference > and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in > Lakota/ Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan > languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and > John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I > ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents > from other Siouan languages of: Ioway, Otoe-Missouria ? = glottal stop > taku 'what, something" dagu'; dagu're (something) > tuwe/a 'who, someone' waye're; waye're?sun (someone; somebody; anybody, anyone) > tukte 'which' ha'naha; dana'haje > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tanda' (where; anywhere, somewhere); tan'?sun, tanda're (somewhere) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tanwa', tanda'wa (whereto, whence, whither). Sentence construction can ulter considerably the rendering of the idea "to where, where to, at/ to somewhere, someplace". > tohan/l 'when. sometime' tahe'da (when, whenever); Also suffixes: "-da, -sge". > tona 'how many, some' ta'na, tahe'na; to, he, iyan' (some) > tokhel 'how, somehow' tunt?un, tunt?un?un; > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Da'hga je/ Da'thga je; Dagu'ra je; Hun'ch?eñi > > Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose > meaning has changed. > > Hope you can help > Yours > Bruce > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 23 22:27:23 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:27:23 -0700 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <001401c66702$7df372e0$924e133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Biloxi is far from being adequately analyzed, but here are the basic equivalents I have for some of those (note that c = ch as in church): > taku 'what, something" > kawa, kawak > tuwe/a 'who, someone' > kawa (but note tupeta, whose) > tukte 'which' > cidike > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > cak, cakaN, cuwa > tona 'how many, some' > cinani > tokhel 'how, somehow' > kawakehi ("in what manner") Hope this helps. Dave goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan > Dear Siouanists > I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference > and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in > Lakota/ Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan > languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and > John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I > ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents > from other Siouan languages of: Ioway, Otoe-Missouria ? = glottal stop > taku 'what, something" dagu'; dagu're (something) > tuwe/a 'who, someone' waye're; waye're?sun (someone; somebody; anybody, anyone) > tukte 'which' ha'naha; dana'haje > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tanda' (where; anywhere, somewhere); tan'?sun, tanda're (somewhere) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tanwa', tanda'wa (whereto, whence, whither). Sentence construction can ulter considerably the rendering of the idea "to where, where to, at/ to somewhere, someplace". > tohan/l 'when. sometime' tahe'da (when, whenever); Also suffixes: "-da, -sge". > tona 'how many, some' ta'na, tahe'na; to, he, iyan' (some) > tokhel 'how, somehow' tunt?un, tunt?un?un; > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Da'hga je/ Da'thga je; Dagu'ra je; Hun'ch?eñi > > Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose > meaning has changed. > > Hope you can help > Yours > Bruce > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Mon Apr 24 00:56:42 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:56:42 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce, In Catawba, the cognates to the Siouan T-words nearly always have interrogative meaning. Non-interrogative meanings are expressed by separate, non-cognate particles (e.g. icepá 'somewhere', akiré· 'some, a few'). Catawba duwé· ~ duré· 'who, what, which' duwé· táni 'why' táye'where' táyece· 'where to' táme 'when' taní· 'how many, how much, so many, so much' táni ~ tánice· 'how' tan akí· 'what's happened; hello' Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 24 16:05:04 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:05:04 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <001401c66702$7df372e0$924e133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Dear Jim, Dave and Blair Thank you for your helpful replies Bruce --- goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "shokooh Ingham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM > Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in > Siouan > ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon Apr 24 22:40:14 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:40:14 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce: Here are some Crow forms: sa'apa 'what' sa'apdak 'something' sa'apako 'from when, from where' sape'e 'who' sape'elak 'someone' sho'oke 'which' sho'o 'where' sho'ola 'where' sho'onnak 'somewhere' sho'ossee 'where to' sho'on 'where, when' sho'ohtannak 'when (future)' sho'ohtaleesh 'when (past' sa'awi 'how many' sho'ota 'how' sho'otdak 'somehow' sho'ohka 'to what extent' There seem to be four basic stems: sa'apa 'what' sape'e 'who' sho'o 'where' sa'awi 'how many' It will be interesting to see what you come up with! Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 24 23:23:47 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:23:47 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <2a2.8f098a8.317eadce@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > There seem to be four basic stems: > > sa'apa 'what' > sape'e 'who' > sho'o 'where' > sa'awi 'how many' Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 24 23:51:32 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:51:32 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Randy Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > There seem to be four basic stems: > > > > sa'apa 'what' > > sape'e 'who' > > sho'o 'where' > > sa'awi 'how many' > > Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. > And *t > sh / __ i,e > too? > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 25 00:17:17 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:17:17 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, shokooh Ingham wrote: > taku 'what, something" > tuwe/a 'who, someone' See http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510&L=siouan&P=R4093 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010&L=siouan&P=R1314 > tukte 'which' See http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=R6852 > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' > tohan/l 'when. sometime' > tona 'how many, some' > tokhel 'how, somehow' > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Obliques, see http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9910&L=siouan&P=R2266 More general http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0109&L=siouan&P=R1029 From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 24 22:43:20 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:43:20 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Here are the WH-words from Kaw (Kansa). Long vowels are not completely consistent in my transcription here. Most, but not all, Dakotan T-words are HA-words in Dhegiha dialects. The font below is Gentium Unicode. Bob hw[be, be? def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? hw[béeski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[dáada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) def[why? hw[hagóoda, -ó· (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hagóha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hagójida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[hána def[how many, how much? hw[háyoska def[how big, what size? hw[hówa + positional article def[where is the X shaped obj.? hw[hówage`ji def[where, to what places hw[ho?oski (JOD) def[random, at, in no particular rem[place. hw[wia?ma (JOD) def[which, which one? hw[wia?maskida? (JOD) def[whichever, whichever one hw[wíamatta (JOD) def[whose is it? Which one are rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Sun 4/23/2006 11:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Dear Siouanists I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents from other Siouan languages of: taku 'what, something" tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when. sometime' tona 'how many, some' tokhel 'how, somehow' tokha 'what happened, something happened' Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose meaning has changed. Hope you can help Yours Bruce Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Apr 25 15:32:19 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:32:19 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: In a message dated 4/24/2006 5:26:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: i,e,u, and o. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 25 20:25:47 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:25:47 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: I thought *s > /ts/ in Hidatsa and /t/ in Crow. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 10:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In a message dated 4/24/2006 5:26:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: i,e,u, and o. Randy From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 26 01:12:12 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:12:12 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Hidatsa /ts/ corresponds to Crow /t/ before /a/, and to /ch/ (that's the practical orthography) before a non-low vowel. So from a historical standpoint, I guess we can say that PSi *t becomes s and *s becomes t. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:25:58 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:25:58 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <3e5.7395f5.318022ec@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Hidatsa /ts/ corresponds to Crow /t/ before /a/, and to /ch/ (that's the > practical orthography) before a non-low vowel. So from a historical > standpoint, I guess we can say that PSi *t becomes s and *s becomes t. Also per Randy: > T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: > i,e,u, and o. I think PS *t only becomes Cr s before a, as in the possessed forms where PMV *hta- 'alienable' comes out sa-, or the question words. But I think that Randy was confirming that when he said *T-words (question/indefinite words) were S(H)-words in Crow. I had a vague recollection that *t and *s merged, but clearly not, from Randy's summary above! In any event the history of *t, *s, and *s^ is quite involved in Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan. With various cases of inversion. Apart from Randy's comment, Matthews, famously, has pointed out that PS *s > Ma s^ and PS *s^ > Ma s. I think this was the basis for Wolff's earlier suggestion that the PS segments were *s and *c^. Note that PS *t is being used here as a sort of shorthand for *ht, *th, *t, and *t?. === Returning to Bruce's original question, I gather, Bruce, that you might be more interested in the merged interrogative and indefinite behavior of the Tpwords and perhaps in their syntax generally, than with their phonological forms per se, or perhaps the T-categories distingusihed, e.g., is 'why' distinguished form 'how', etc. I have a slight tendency to tackle an expression like T-word in phonological terms, but I assume you are using the phrase by analogy with the English expression WH-words, or Latin Qu-words, etc. As Bob says, in Dhegiha these are mostly ha-words, though there are three or four other elements that figure in Dhegiha, e.g., *ta in 'what' forms, *pe in 'who' forms, and (wi)awa(N)- in 'which of two' forms. The last probably has something to do with PS forms for 'one' and 'other'. And, of course, in Omaha-Ponca *ha- comes out a-, as it 'appens: one of a small set of forms where OP and Da have a vowel initial, but the rest of MVS has h. There are a few cases of *(h)a- as a question root elsewhere in Mississippi Valley, mainly in Winnebago and IO, but otherwise *tV (V = some vowel) seems to be the usual one, except for *pe which is common for 'who'. The other bits attached to these roots tend to occur also with demonstatives and some nouns as "tight postpositions" or other enclitic modifiers. I say "other enclitic modifiers" because I have trouble thinking of things like *na(N) 'quantity' and *htaN 'extent' as postpositions. These things have always interested me, perhaps because I was bitten as a teenager by a table of Latin "correlatives." From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 26 20:33:50 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:33:50 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, John may have already sent you the OP question words to match your list, but I haven't otherwise seen a posting for OP. I've been going through (~ the first 50 pages of) Dorsey's Dhegiha Language texts along with our Omaha class, and have been pulling out the words and sorting them into categories. Here's what I've gotten so far for "Question Words": a'gudi where? (location) a'qtaN How possible? a'naska what size? (probably a'raNska in modern Omaha) a'ttaN why? atHaN' What time (of day)? a'wakHE'di in what place a'wahnaNkHa'ce which one of you? a'waraN Which/What/Where is (globular object)? a'watHe'gaN of what sort? ea'ttaN why? ea'ttaN a'daN why? wherefore? ea'ttaN e'daN why? wherefore? (in thought) e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] E'be who? iNda'daN what?; something eda'daN what wiN'aNwa which one? wiN'aNwatta ? in which direction? I also have a subcategory entitled "-soever": a'gudi ratHi' e'iNtt(H)e - wherever you may have come from atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) da'daN what, whatever eda'daN what; whatever (eda'd ?i'rai - what they speak of) ede'he what I say Ebe'ctE anybody at all (Ebe'ctE ua'kkie ma'ji - I wasn't talking to anyone) INda'daNctE whatever cte'cte soever cte'ctewaN' soever A few common modern ones haven't shown up yet, at least in the usual form. These include: awa'tta where, in what direction eaN' how awiN'aNwa which one a'naN how many ede' What did s/he say? ede's^e What did you say? ede'pHe What did I say? a'watHe'gaN X UmaN'haN ie' tHE a'watHe'gaN? How do you say X in Omaha? So to match with your Dakotan list: taku 'what, something" iNda'daN, eda'daN tuwe/a 'who, someone' ebe' tukte 'which' awiN'aNwa(N) tuktel 'where, somewhere' a'gudi (-di postposition) tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' awa'tta (-tta postposition) tohan/l 'when. sometime' atHaN' tona 'how many, some' a'naN tokhel 'how, somehow' eaN' tokha 'what happened, something happened' ? It looks like 'who', 'when' and 'how many' probably have cognate roots. I wonder if Dakotan taku matches the root part of OP a'gu-di, which would make the OP word for 'where at' mean "at what". The use of awa- with positionals is interesting. Hope this helps! Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:39:16 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:39:16 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <375f01a70604181423ka38c1c2r33ae71a40f44fdbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Lameen Souag wrote: > * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than > Boas' for Ponca? I think the places to look are: - Carolyn Quintero's Osage Grammar, of course, as Bob indicated. - LaFlesche's Osage dictionary (which requires a bit of a user's guide to render into Osage from its OPage form) - Very limited list in my very crude OP grammar of some years back. - Rather better list, I think, in the (?) Hahn Ponca ms. - Bob's Kansa and Quapaw Lexicons (ciruclate in draft). - Dorsey's OP texts. As it happens, I am about to make a copy of my grammar for someone, and I have an extra copy of Hahn. > * Does reduplication ever occur in Hidatsa? Indudubitably. As opposed to indubdubitably, or so I believe. I think it would be safe to say that reduplication occurs in all Siouan languages (or maybe all languages?), though the form, extent of productivity, and function varies. For Winnebago and IO, I think there are remarks in Lipkind and maybe Whitman, but I would go to Jimm Good Tracks dictionary for the latter, which may still be available from the CU Linguistics Department. > Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that > reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for > Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is > probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more > limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) If > anyone's interested, I'd be happy to send a copy after I finish it next > week. Oops. I see I am late! I'm not sure what an adjectival inanimate plural sense is. Something like 'some quality here and there' or 'instances of a quality'? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:43:56 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:43:56 -0600 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. In-Reply-To: <20060419171755.12822.qmail@web53812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, David Kaufman wrote: > So true! I've always wondered if the outward spead of Oneota might not suggest a propensity for emigration by early Mississippi Valley Siouan speakers. Perhaps we could imagine a resident of Cahokia thinking dark thoughts about early Kaws, too. :-) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 21:51:51 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:51:51 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > John may have already sent you the OP question words to match your list, > but I haven't otherwise seen a posting for OP. I've been intending to, but it's a longish list and I haven't had time! > I've been going through (~ the first 50 pages of) Dorsey's Dhegiha > Language texts along with our Omaha class, and have been pulling out the > words and sorting them into categories. Here's what I've gotten so far > for "Question Words": > > a'gudi where? (location) I make this (etymologically) a-gu-di or, in PMV terms, *(h)a "T" + *ku 'yonder' + *tu LOCATIVE. It reminds me of naval "where away?" > a'qtaN How possible? I'm thinking that the reading for this one is more like "how on earth" than "how can," but I'd be very interested to heat the contemporary take on this! I think the morphosyntax is a=xt(i)=aN, with aN being the aN that appears more below. Is there a variant eaxtaN, or am I crossing this up with something else? > a'naska what size? (probably a'raNska in modern Omaha) > a'ttaN why? Also eattaN, I think, though the e may belong syntactically to the preceding phrase, making it a cleft or focussed element. OK, I see it below! > atHaN' What time (of day)? > > a'wakHE'di in what place > a'wahnaNkHa'ce which one of you? > a'waraN Which/What/Where is (globular object)? > a'watHe'gaN of what sort? These forms have the awa(N) 'which of two (or several definite possibilities) prefix. This reading is rather notional on my part, however. The -kHe- element is a positional, as you see, other forms with -tHe-, -dhaN- (or -naN-), but not, I think, -ge-, turn up. Even some with animate positionals, i.e., hnaNkHa=s^e 'you-all-the-sitting', which I did not recall! Nice! The final elements are (nil) 'what/which', di 'locative', gaN 'kind', so the general formula is awa + POSITIONAL + NATURE. > ea'ttaN why? > ea'ttaN a'daN why? wherefore? > ea'ttaN e'daN why? wherefore? (in thought) The -daN element, also in dadaN 'what' is throughout the texts for "in thought" and seems to mark a contingent quotation in those contexts. I have been thinking of it as a marker of "contingency" or "dependent conditionality." I assume that adaN and edaN have a contrast something like interrogative vs. demonstrative, but e tends to wander into question forms instead of a or in addition to it (e-a-). Since the inspiration came to me that -e in various contexts is a "cleft" or "focus" marker, I've tended to see the intial e-'s in question forms in that light, but fused proclitically to the following element rather than enclitically to the preceding. > e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] In effect "who on earth"? > E'be who? See if you can find a consistent difference between e'be and ebe'. Dorsey suggests there is one. This could be right or wrong. > iNda'daN what?; something > eda'daN what I gather than no one hears a difference between these today? I think that there is one in the texts, along the lines of indefinite (no particular answer imagined) vs. definite (some particular set of answers imagined, i.e., more like which). > wiN'aNwa which one? > wiN'aNwatta ? in which direction? I take these to be awa(N) forms with prefixed wi(N). It may be that the the nasality percolates through from wiN, rather than being part of awa itself, except that there are those aNwa or awaN forms meaning 'other'. (In which w is often m.) > I also have a subcategory entitled "-soever": > > a'gudi ratHi' e'iNtt(H)e - wherever you may have come from Basically, a(a)'gudi 'where' plus dhatHi 'you arrive here' + (e)iNtHe 'perhaps', though 'perhaps' is a gloss of convenience. I think (e)iNtHe and some similar elements including maybe (e)de and (e)daN are OP modals. > atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) Hmm. I wonder if this is atH(e) + aN=xti 'when on earth', by analogy with (e)axtaN 'how on earth' and eaNxti 'who on earth'. > da'daN what, whatever > eda'daN what; whatever (eda'd ?i'rai - what they speak of) > ede'he what I say In effect, the last is a verb e-d(a)-e-PRO-(h)e 'to say something, to say what'. I've always found this a bit astounding, but similar forms, differing somewhat in morphology, appear in Dakota, etc., too. In this category also go forms like g(a)-e-PRO-(h)e 'to say what follows' vs. e-PRO-(h)e 'to say what precedes'. Dakota also have forms of 'to say' with the various demonstratives. These forms tend to suggest that e, the demonstatives, and the interrogative-indefinites are a class historically, while also showing that e- in the intials of verbs of speaking and thinking has become opaque and is no longer seen as a demonstrative. > Ebe'ctE anybody at all (Ebe'ctE ua'kkie ma'ji - I wasn't talking > to anyone) > INda'daNctE whatever > cte'cte soever > cte'ctewaN' soever The forms with s^te are pretty regularly translated with -(so)ever by Dorsey. (Warning: It took me the better part of a day once to realize that =j^te or something like that in modern speech was =daN=s^te said really fast!) This =s^te enclitic is analogous syntactically to =xti 'true(ly), very' (just like English very < vrai), =s^ti 'too', =s^naN (=hnaN, =naN) 'exclusively, only' > 'habitually'. Rory, any ideas on when it's =s^tes^te not =s^te (reduplicators take note) or =s^tewaN? I assume the latter is =s^te=waN or =s^te=aN, where perhaps the (w)aN has something to do with the aN that appears with =xti and =naN when they are inflected (e.g., =xti=maN, =xti=z^aN). Bob suggests this is an old perfective auxiliary. What is the linguistic approach to "(so)ever"? It seems to have something to do with there being a class of things over which the reference ranges. There is a name, for example, GdhedaNs^temiN, that seems to be 'any hawk (so-ever) woman', and then there is also the clan name We'z^iNs^te 'Elk', which seems to be 'any (or all) willful (or angry?) ones', from wa-iz^iN 'to think (suspect?) something; to be angry, to be willful'. The glossing may need a lot of work here. > A few common modern ones haven't shown up yet, at least in the usual form. > These include: > > awa'tta where, in what direction > eaN' how I've also seen cases of just aN for 'how', and sometimes just aN appears as a conjunction in lieu of egaN. That may be dialect usage, since it's rare and a speaker that does it tends to do it consistently, as far as I can recall. > awiN'aNwa which one a "T" + wi(N) + awa(N) > a'naN how many Definitely in the texts. > ede' What did s/he say? > ede's^e What did you say? > ede'pHe What did I say? Cf. edehe above. > a'watHe'gaN X UmaN'haN ie' tHE a'watHe'gaN? > How do you say X in Omaha? Or awa 'which of several' + tHe positional for stack + gaN 'manner', although relative to tHe, notice that it also concords with UmaNhaN ie tHe. Note that Rory and I are writing H (superscript h) as a reflection of the new "popular" orthographies. I'm neglecting E (which Rory thinks may contrast with e) in these contexts because I think the "eh" pronunciation in tHe and kHe reflects the affect of aspiration on the vowel. Rory seems to be writing r now for dh (popular system th), which makes perfect sense. > So to match with your Dakotan list: > > taku 'what, something" iNda'daN, eda'daN > tuwe/a 'who, someone' ebe' > tukte 'which' awiN'aNwa(N) > tuktel 'where, somewhere' a'gudi (-di postposition) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' awa'tta (-tta postposition) > tohan/l 'when. sometime' atHaN' > tona 'how many, some' a'naN > tokhel 'how, somehow' eaN' > tokha 'what happened, something happened' ? While the use of particular forms may have become somewhat stylized, today and in Dorsey's time, too, I think that the OP forms may require a bit more of a matrix for 'where, when, how X' where X = many, far, high, etc.: agudi | ( ( a | (wiN)awa ) + (POSITIONAL) + KIND ) Substitute (edadaN | iNdadaN) for agudi and omit KIND and you get the 'what/which' formula. For 'how' it's (e)aN. For 'why' it's (e)attaN. (I've nver been quite sure if it was =ttaN or tHaN here.) The difference between 'how' and 'why', or the usage of them, is not the same as in English. > It looks like 'who', 'when' and 'how many' probably have cognate roots. I > wonder if Dakotan taku matches the root part of OP a'gu-di, which would > make the OP word for 'where at' mean "at what". I think so. Winnebago has j^aagu 'what'. I assume that *ku in these forms once meant something like 'remote' or 'away from here' and that perhaps use of localizing particles in company with interrogatives was more general in PMV than it is in the modern languages. A few relicts remain without the localizing sense. > The use of awa- with positionals is interesting. I notice that positionals aren't used with (h)a-. This may be because the awa(N) expressions were originally not interrogative in morphology, and so have more features of standard noun phrases. However, there are some rare a-POSIT- forms. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Apr 27 02:51:06 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:51:06 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > Note that Rory and I are writing H (superscript h) as a reflection of the new "popular" orthographies. I'm neglecting E (which Rory thinks may contrast with e) in these contexts because I think the "eh" pronunciation in tHe and kHe reflects the affect of aspiration on the vowel. > Rory seems to be writing r now for dh (popular system th), which makes perfect sense. Oops. I should have explained that I was following Dorsey's orthography as much as possible in assembling these lists. I really hate digraphs, especially the ambiguous 'th', and Dorsey is kind enough not to use them. I'm typing these into Notepad in straight ASCII so I don't have to worry about special fonts. What has evolved is a very serviceable, if unholy, mixture of Dorsey with NetSiouan. So in these word lists, c means esh (s^) and j means ezh (z^), as Dorsey had them. I don't have a cent sign in Notepad or on my keyboard, so I made the executive decision to use r for ledh (dh), which, I agree, makes perfect sense. I'm trying to normalize the stop consonant series, which he failed to complete, as e.g. d, tt, tH, t?, and ct, and I rely on our speakers to help me there. Where I'm not sure if e.g. a t in Dorsey is tense or aspirated, I write it tt(H) on the theory that that will irk me enough to remember to ask the speakers. The alveolar affricate series has to be handled as dj, ttc, tcH, etc. Otherwise, I'm mostly following his usage. The velar fricatives are q (harsh, or voiceless) and x (soft, or voiced). Dorsey was very good about distinguishing these, and the Fletcher and La Fleche-based orthographies since then have not been. I use upper-case vowels A, E, and I where Dorsey uses a short-vowel symbol (little bowl over the vowel). Presumably he heard a phonetic distinction here: I'm not claiming the distinction was necessarily phonemic, but am only recording the difference for tracking purposes, in hopes it will help us figure out what the rule for the distinction was. John, I'll write back more, hopefully tomorrow or the next day. I have a Japanese final tomorrow to study for, so I'll have to shut up till then! Rory From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Apr 27 02:17:14 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:17:14 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >I think you could put this one on the list. It's a bit political, > naturally, and it's a good idea to avoid politics on the list, but the > politics of it are relevant in a very linguistic way. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:36 AM >> Subject: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> FromSubject: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >> >> >> From: NIEA at niea.org [_ mailto:NIEA at niea.org] _ >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:56 AM >> To: David Beaulieu >> Subject: NIEA Broadcast #06-022 >> >> _ _ >> >> National Indian Education Association >> 110 Maryland Avenue, N.E. >> Suite 104 >> Washington, D.C. 20002 >> P: (202) 544-7290 / F: (202) 544-7293 >> >> April 24, 2006 >> Broadcast #06-022 >> >> LEGISLATIVE ALERT >> >> NIEA is asking for all Tribes and tribal members to send the following >> letter to the Education and Workforce Committee _ >> >> _ in the United States House of Representatives. >> >> NIEA has been working very hard to get a hearing on H.R. 4766, the >> Native American Languages Preservation Act of 2006, and requests your >> assistance in asking the Education and Workforce Committee to hold a >> hearing or mark-up on the bill during this legislative session. H.R. 4766 >> _ >> _ was >> introduced by Representatives Rick Renzi (R-AZ) and Heather Wilson (R-NM) >> on >> February 15, 2006. >> >> Click on the above link to access the letter template for the House >> Education and Workforce Committee. >> >> For more information or if you have any questions, please feel free to >> contact NIEA at (202)544-7290. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low >> rates. > From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Thu Apr 27 23:01:39 2006 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:01:39 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Koontz wrote: > > I think it would be safe to say that reduplication occurs in all Siouan > languages (or maybe all languages?), though the form, extent of > productivity, and function varies. One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just create confusion. This subject does have a small connection to Siouan reduplication. Shaw (1980) includes the word siksika 'the Blackfoot people' in her section on Dakota reduplication, but she could not find a root word sika. As far as I can tell, this is because siksika is a borrowed word, and is not a result of reduplication, even though it looks identical to reduplicated forms. Siksika is the term that the Blackfoot people use to refer to themselves. Here is a gloss of this word in Blackfoot (as I recall it): siksi + ka 'black' + 'foot' Just some thoughts, Corey. From warr0120 at umn.edu Thu Apr 27 23:14:39 2006 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:14:39 -0500 Subject: pages from meyer In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: 166: re: Santee ILCs 354: re: termination and inadequacy of land administration system -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00354.tif Type: image/tiff Size: 84396 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00166.tif Type: image/tiff Size: 86156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 28 01:26:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:26:20 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is > Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small > phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just > create confusion. But I think reduplication is fairly common in Algonquian as a whole, right? Maybe not quite as pervasive as in Dakotan or, say, Indonesian! > This subject does have a small connection to Siouan reduplication. Shaw > (1980) includes the word siksika 'the Blackfoot people' in her section on > Dakota reduplication, but she could not find a root word sika. As far as > I can tell, this is because siksika is a borrowed word, and is not a > result of reduplication, even though it looks identical to reduplicated > forms. Siksika is the term that the Blackfoot people use to refer to > themselves. Here is a gloss of this word in Blackfoot (as I recall it): > > siksi + ka > 'black' + 'foot' > > Just some thoughts, Well, send in some more! This was pretty interesting. I was just musing on how seeing even a Siouan language in purely Siouan terms is sort of one dimensional, and here's a nice case in point. Last night I saw a note on the Web suggesting that Gothic reduplication might be a "recent" (post Proto-Germanic) innovation, a case of analogy with a few always reduplicated Germanic preterites run wild. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Apr 28 01:37:01 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:37:01 -0700 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: I would predict that reduplication is present in every Algonquian language other than Blackfoot. It's quite common in all the Algonquian languages I'm familiar with, tho some languages use it more than others. Proto-Algonquian appears to have had several different patterns of reduplications that carried with them important semantic differences. However, the whole topic hasn't been systematically studied for very long, or for many of the languages. Many grammars ignore it or barely cover it. Dave >> One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is >> Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small >> phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just >> create confusion. > >But I think reduplication is fairly common in Algonquian as a whole, >right? Maybe not quite as pervasive as in Dakotan or, say, Indonesian! From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Apr 28 10:35:49 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:35:49 +0200 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: Dear Corey, > One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication > is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has > a small phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication > would just create confusion. I'm not so sure about some 3, 4, 5 phonemes less than in some "vanillish" Algonquian lg. really making such a big difference, and, of course, one always might consider the option of only partial reduplication. But maybe that's the general linguistic dilemma of attempting at a posteriori explanations. I'm also not really sure about BF morphemes as a rule being so terribly long. We also in other Algonquian lgs. at times have seemingly long morphemes, which probably consist several we simply can't analyze. Alas, concering the state of BF lexicography, I must say that reading text with the dictionaries by Uhlenbeck/Van Gulik and Frantz/Russell isn't exactly fun. > siksi + ka > 'black' + 'foot' Actually "black, dark" is sik- only, with connective -i- and an inserted euphonic -s-. All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:22:46 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:22:46 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Rory Very useful Bruce--- Rory M Larson wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > John may have already sent you the OP question words > to match your list,. Here's what I've gotten so far for > "Question Words": > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:34:01 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:34:01 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <44520C25.31169.55B12B@localhost> Message-ID: Dear Heiki As you seem to know about Blackfoot, do you know what their Wh-words are. I've got them for Cree, Cheyenne and Ojibway, but Blackfoot would be an interesting addition to the list. I'm looking at a Siouan-Algonquian comparison. The Lakota words are called T-words because they begin with t---and are as follows: tokhel 'how, somehow' tona 'how many, some' taku 'what, something" tokha 'what happened, something happened' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when, sometime' tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? Bruce - Heike Bödeker wrote: > Dear Corey, > > > One language that does not seem to have any type > of reduplication > > is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact > that Blackfoot has > > a small phoneme inventory and fairly long > morphemes. Reduplication > > would just create confusion. > > I'm not so sure about some 3, 4, 5 phonemes less > than in some > "vanillish" Algonquian lg. really making such a big > difference, and, > of course, one always might consider the option of > only partial > reduplication. But maybe that's the general > linguistic dilemma of > attempting at a posteriori explanations. > > I'm also not really sure about BF morphemes as a > rule being so > terribly long. We also in other Algonquian lgs. at > times have > seemingly long morphemes, which probably consist > several we simply > can't analyze. Alas, concering the state of BF > lexicography, I must > say that reading text with the dictionaries by > Uhlenbeck/Van Gulik > and Frantz/Russell isn't exactly fun. > > > siksi + ka > > 'black' + 'foot' > > Actually "black, dark" is sik- only, with connective > -i- and an > inserted euphonic -s-. > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ Win tickets to the 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany with Yahoo! Messenger. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/fifaworldcup_uk/ From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 15:33:43 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:33:43 +0100 Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob You recently sent me a lot of useful date about T- words. I copied the data and your name, but not the name of the language . It included data beginning like this: hw[be, be? def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? hw[béeski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[dáada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) def[why? hw[hagóoda, -ó· (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hagóha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hagójida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[hána def[how many, how much? hw[háyoska def[how big, what size? Could you remind me what the language was. Thanks Bruce ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Apr 28 15:50:33 2006 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:50:33 -0600 Subject: first language acquisition Message-ID: Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is anyone actively working on this? Mary Marino From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Apr 28 20:22:55 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 22:22:55 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060428133401.27503.qmail@web26804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > The Lakota words are called T-words because they begin > with t- Like onsets (be it by identical roots, by sound symbolism or just profane analogy) of demonstratives and interrogatives are attested in many lgs. resp. lg. families, e.g. in Indo-European we have interrogatives/indefinites/relatives in *kW-, distals in *s-/*t-, proximals in *i-/*e-, in Dravidian distals in *a-, contingents in *u- , proximals in *i- and interrogatives in *yaa-/*ee-, etc. etc. > Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? Sure. Actually, they're more fully treated in the standard grammars by Frantz (1991: 134-138), Taylor (1969: 164, 213ff) and Uhlenbeck (1938: 104-108). They're involving two interrogative roots, t- (ts- resulting from a following *i, which is perfectly regular) and s- (pace Taylor), as well as a demonstrative called into this special service, and manner preverbs. Obviously, there's considerable dialectal and historical variation involved, but, alas, the full picture is not attested. > taku 'what, something" tsá (non-human animate or inanimate) "what?" [tsá niit- "what manner? how?", tsá aanist- "id."; tsá anistsii- "be what time? be when?"] áahsa (inaminate) "what?" > tokhel 'how, somehow' s.a. > tona 'how many, some' s.a. [tsá niitsi- "be what number? be how many?"] > tokha 'what happened, something happened' s.a. > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tsimá "where?", or distal ann- with non-affirmative verbal inflection (e.g. annáatsiksi kóko'siksi? "where are your kids?") > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' s.a. (e.g. tsimá kitáakitapóóhpa? "where will you go?") > tohan/l 'when, sometime' s.a. > tuwe/a 'who, someone' tahkáa, takáá (obviative: tsikáa) "who?" > tukte 'which' tská "why? which?" tsiyá "which?" (i)máak- (Piikani (i)máo'k-) "why?" All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 28 21:36:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:36:35 -0500 Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Those were from Kansa or Kaw. The second set was from Quapaw. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:33 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Bob You recently sent me a lot of useful date about T- words. I copied the data and your name, but not the name of the language . It included data beginning like this: hw[be, be? def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? hw[béeski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[dáada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) def[why? hw[hagóoda, -ó· (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hagóha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hagójida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?· (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[hána def[how many, how much? hw[háyoska def[how big, what size? Could you remind me what the language was. Thanks Bruce ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 28 21:41:20 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:41:20 -0500 Subject: first language acquisition Message-ID: Personally, I haven't heard of anyone working on that. Where would you do the work except in a very few Dakotan and Crow communities? B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:50 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: first language acquisition Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is anyone actively working on this? Mary Marino From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 29 18:51:32 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 19:51:32 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <445295BF.21250.8541B3@localhost> Message-ID: Dear Heie Thanks. Did you have the words for 'when' and 'why' ? We have got Uhlenbeck at SOAS, but unfortunately I'm housebound at the moment Bruce --- Heike Bödeker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? > > Sure. Actually, they're more fully treated in the > standard grammars > by Frantz (1991: 134-138), Taylor (1969: 164, 213ff) > and Uhlenbeck > (1938: 104-108). They're involving two interrogative > roots, t- (ts- > resulting from a following *i, which is perfectly > regular) and s- > (pace Taylor), as well as a demonstrative called > into this special > service, and manner preverbs. Obviously, there's > considerable > dialectal and historical variation involved, but, > alas, the full > picture is not attested. > > > taku 'what, something" > > tsá (non-human animate or inanimate) "what?" [tsá > niit- "what manner? > how?", tsá aanist- "id."; tsá anistsii- "be what > time? be when?"] > > áahsa (inaminate) "what?" > > > tokhel 'how, somehow' > > s.a. > > > tona 'how many, some' > > s.a. [tsá niitsi- "be what number? be how many?"] > > > tokha 'what happened, something happened' > > s.a. > > > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > > tsimá "where?", or distal ann- with non-affirmative > verbal inflection > (e.g. annáatsiksi kóko'siksi? "where are your > kids?") > > > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' > > s.a. (e.g. tsimá kitáakitapóóhpa? "where will you > go?") > > > tohan/l 'when, sometime' > > s.a. > > > tuwe/a 'who, someone' > > tahkáa, takáá (obviative: tsikáa) "who?" > > > tukte 'which' > > tská "why? which?" > > tsiyá "which?" > > (i)máak- (Piikani (i)máo'k-) "why?" > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ Introducing the new Yahoo! Answers Beta – A new place to get answers to your questions – Try it http://uk.answers.yahoo.com From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Apr 30 04:09:18 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:09:18 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Some time ago, the list was addressing the conjugation of the verb "?o'" (?ó) [wound] which occurs in many Siouan Languages. While looking for something else, in "A Dictionary of Everyday Crow", Crow Agency Bilingual Education Program. 1987 (revised), I came upon: 1. uua' (v tr) /uu/ shoot -- on p.20. No conjugations were provided. (See Below) 2. oo'xpe (v tr) /i/ shoot, wound -- p.x; 20: He... oo'xpik; They... oo'xpuuk I... boo'xpik; We... boo'xpuuk you... doo'xpik; You (pl) doo'xpuuk Shoot! oo'xpih; Shoot! (pl) oo'xpaalah Then In "Crow word list", Lowie. 1960. p.170: u': (u) to shoot, wound, hit ma u' om they shot some (game) akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k one of the Cheyenne headcutters) I shot u'ak arapapa'ce de'sa ka'te tseruk when they hit him, the bullet did not go in I also note that Hidatsa "Wordlist", Jones. Preliminary Version, 1979: 1. Shoot u?u-axbi; ni?i 2. Shoot & hit ú?u 3, Shoot at írigi; ni (No conjugations offered) Now then... Does any of the above shed any new light on arriving at likely conjugations for the verb - ?o' (?ó). Could this be a word that conjugates similar to the IOM: ?uN' (?ún = to do, make; act as/ in manner of), namely: I... ha?uN'; you... ra?uN'; we... hin?uN'wi; etc. Just wondering and not giving up yet. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sun Apr 30 11:18:24 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:18:24 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060429185133.3104.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > Did you have the words for 'when' Yes, they were included. This one is a preverb: >> (i)máak- (Piikani (i)máo'k-) "why?" > and 'why' ? This is a combination with a verb. Whereby actually I'm wondering whether this one might simply be waanisttsi- (AI) "do" rather than something so highly specialized as to mean "be ... time" -? (The w- drop is regular, and also the quantity might have be difficult to hear.) >> tsá anistsii- "be what time? be when?" All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 30 14:13:52 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:13:52 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <4454B920.9343.155B9BA@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks Heike, This is all very useful. Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like Lakota tokhel ? Bruce --- Heike Bödeker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Did you have the words for 'when' > > Yes, they were included. This one is a preverb: > > >> (i)máak- (Piikani (i)máo'k-) "why?" > > > and 'why' ? > > This is a combination with a verb. Whereby actually > I'm wondering > whether this one might simply be waanisttsi- (AI) > "do" rather than > something so highly specialized as to mean "be ... > time" -? (The w- > drop is regular, and also the quantity might have be > difficult to > hear.) > > >> tsá anistsii- "be what time? be when?" > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sun Apr 30 16:19:44 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:19:44 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060430141352.3506.qmail@web26812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like Lakota > tokhel ? Yes: > tsá niit- "what manner? how?" Whereby this one leads us back to question of reduplication, as it has a variant aanist- "manner" with the regular Alg. replacement of the root vocalism by aa, *-h- insertion (with regular assibilation in BF), as well as initial drop. To make matters worse, subsequent restaurations also occur, that is including also false restaurations... Other standard examples are BF paapá- "dream" from reduplicated PA *aahpaw- "dream" (unreduplicated *paw-), or BF ómahk- /ímahk- "big, old" from PA *(m)amank- "big". All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 30 17:24:02 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:24:02 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <4454FFC0.16519.2A1DFC@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks Heike Got it Bruce --- Heike Bödeker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like > Lakota > > tokhel ? > > Yes: > > > tsá niit- "what manner? how?" > > Whereby this one leads us back to question of > reduplication, as it > has a variant aanist- "manner" with the regular Alg. > replacement of > the root vocalism by aa, *-h- insertion (with > regular assibilation in > BF), as well as initial drop. To make matters worse, > subsequent > restaurations also occur, that is including also > false > restaurations... Other standard examples are BF > paapá- "dream" from > reduplicated PA *aahpaw- "dream" (unreduplicated > *paw-), or BF ómahk- > /ímahk- "big, old" from PA *(m)amank- "big". > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Apr 5 09:28:21 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 05:28:21 -0400 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami was identified by the Jesuit Claude-Jean Allouez and Pierre-Charles Delliette, a French teenager who lived among the Wea (a subtribe of the Miami), as and , respectively. This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio valley or Mississippian Siouan language. Thank you. Michael McCafferty From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 5 18:14:50 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:14:50 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: <20060405052821.muqzcdoesog4wkco@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > and ... > > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. The best I can say until I can look through some dictionaries is that it is reasonably shaped to be a Siouan form, in terms of phonetic content, phonological canons, and potential morphology. I just don't recognize the root. Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' instrumental, and tika is the root. It would also be a fairly reasonable onomatopeic bird call. Isn't there a usual explanation somewhat along those lines? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Apr 8 19:39:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:39:20 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > > and ... > > > > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. > > Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, > reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration > or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' > instrumental, and tika is the root. Some possibilities: IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly documented area in IO and Winnebago. IO raj^e 'call by name' An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that works out. IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, not c^hege) I'll look further, but this may be some help. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Apr 9 15:46:19 2006 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael McCafferty) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:46:19 -0400 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for your thoughts, John. To be honest, though, I think this is a dead horse, at least for now. Michael Quoting Koontz John E : > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: >> > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] >> > and ... >> > >> > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was >> > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio >> > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. >> >> Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, >> reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration >> or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' >> instrumental, and tika is the root. > > Some possibilities: > > IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' > (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') > > This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. > However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I > believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly > with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly > documented area in IO and Winnebago. > > IO raj^e 'call by name' > > An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that > works out. > > IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' > > (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, > not c^hege) > > I'll look further, but this may be some help. > > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 11 02:23:37 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:23:37 -0600 Subject: Kilatika In-Reply-To: <20060409114619.nqgmmnz3ms0wosc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Thanks for your thoughts, John. To be honest, though, I think this is a > dead horse, at least for now. Not being entirely certain why the horse died, before I give up, you were aware that t > c^ / __ [e, i] in IO? And in Winnebago t > c^ in all contexts? Here t and c^ refer essentially to the classes dental and alveopalatal. Another possible root is *hteeka 'new, recent'. Granting that 'to rub with the mouth' = 'to tell old news' feels like a form that might come and go, it is never the less fairly common to find forms in which 'by mouth' applied to an adjectival or nominal root has the force 'to speak of as ...; to characterize as ...'. My stock example is OP dhaxube 'to speak of as holy' < xube 'holy'. > Michael > > Quoting Koontz John E : > > > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > >> > A subtribe of the Algonquian-speaking Miami [is identified as] > >> > and ... > >> > > >> > This ethnonym has no apparent etymology in Miami-Illinois. I was > >> > wondering if by chance it might have an apparent etymology in an Ohio > >> > valley or Mississippian Siouan language. > >> > >> Something like ki + ra + tika, where ki is from the suus, possessive, > >> reflexive and reciprocal set (neglecting vowel syncopation and aspiration > >> or preaspiration, etc., on the stop), ra is a perhaps the 'by mouth' > >> instrumental, and tika is the root. > > > > Some possibilities: > > > > IO rac^hege 'to tell old news', wac^hege 'polish by rubbing, make new' > > (-c^hege (root) with ra- 'by mouth', and wa 'by pushing') > > > > This might suggest something like 'they chatter about themselves'. > > However, note that I am just using IO as a convenient source of forcms. I > > believe the reflexive or reciprocal "ki (khi-) would interact irregularly > > with the ra- instrumental, maybe khikra-? This is kind of a weakly > > documented area in IO and Winnebago. > > > > IO raj^e 'call by name' > > > > An additional element *-ka would be required with this. I'm not sure that > > works out. > > > > IO j^i'ge 'wipe clean, stroke across' > > > > (If this is related to the first root, then, maybe it is actually c^ege, > > not c^hege) > > > > I'll look further, but this may be some help. > > > > > > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 18 19:00:16 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:00:16 -0500 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. Message-ID: This was in the Indianapolis paper last week. I substituted "Kaw" for "Iroquois" in the original. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Immigrants.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 256383 bytes Desc: Immigrants.jpg URL: From lameen at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 21:23:10 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:23:10 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: Hi everybody, I'm currently working on an essay on reduplication in Siouan-Catawban, a topic that I gather has been discussed here at least twice previously, from a historical-typological perspective. I was wondering if anyone could tell me: * Does anyone know of any examples of Tutelo reduplication other than the three given by Horatio Hale? * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than Boas' for Ponca? * Does reduplication ever occur in Hidatsa? * If Randolph Graczyk is on this list, I was wondering whether he could maybe upload a copy of his paper somewhere? It would be great to be able to cite a better source on Crow reduplication than the rather unhelpfully brief two I've found so far. * Does Blair Rudes's grammar of Catawba have a working title by which I can cite it? (or is it published yet? I'm referring to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=SIOUAN&P=R3513&I=-3 ) Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to send a copy after I finish it next week. Thanks for your help, Lameen Souag -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 18 22:10:33 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:10:33 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: > I'm currently working on an essay on reduplication in Siouan-Catawban, a topic that I gather has been discussed here at least twice previously, from a historical-typological perspective. I was wondering if anyone could tell me: > * Does anyone know of any examples of Tutelo reduplication other than the three given by Horatio Hale? If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. She consulted what unpublished field notes of Hale's and Dorsey's there were. > * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than Boas' for Ponca? Carolyn Quintero's Osage Grammar, Univ. of Nebraska Press, just new last year, is the best treatment of any language in this subgroup. Other work is unpublished and contributors may be able to help you further. > Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) Well, that's 3 of the 4 major subgroups. With those attested, it's hard to imagine it isn't the same in Mandan. Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. I haven't tried to analyze them semantically. Some are clearly iterative actions, but others seem to be sort of continuing states with no notion of renewed action of the verb. And 'mulberry' is a noun of course, but it may somehow be deverbal. The font here is Times New Roman set to display Unicode (without which some characters may not display correctly). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ?*-tu-tu-e 'be cooking' aba?-p?-p?-to?pi ~ iba?p?to?pi 'I shoot'. causative is fused and no longer inflected. cichi?*ti Sw tci?tchi?nti - to crawl; ref. p. 329. e?-te-te 'sick, keep on suffering'. Iterative or continuative aspect. ?pak-li?*-li-hi 'roll, roll it!' f??tf?te Sw f??tf?te - to whistle; infl. baf?tf?te 'I whistle'; tcaf??tf?te 'you whistle'.; ref. p. 323. f?f?n?ki Sw f?f?n?ki - mulberry (Creole: murier); ref. p. 323. ka-la-la 'make a ringing sound by striking' lolohi, l?lohe Sw lolohi - to run (like water); e.g. a?nic lo?lohe, ani?c lalo?hi; trans. the water runs; e.g. a?nic lo?lohe afhi?hi; trans. the current; ref. p. 326, under lo pa*n?n?*hi Sw pan?na?hi - to sift; infl. bapan?na?hi 'I sift'.; ref. p. 328. poph?ti Sw poph??ti - to swell or puff out; infl. bapoph??ti 'I swell or puff out'; tcapoph??ti 'you swell or puff out'.; ref. p. 328. May not be reduplication. sni-sni-we 'itch', iterative. This verb may also be causative (-we), but if it is, the tas?*shihi Sw tasi?shihi - to whine; infl. batasi?shihi 'I whine'; tcatasi?shihi 'you whine'; e.g. atch???ki tasi?shihi; trans. the dog whines; ref. p. 330. t?t?*hi Sw t?ta?hi - to shake or tremble; infl. bat?ta?hi 'I shake or tremble'; tcat?ta?hi 'you shake or tremble'.; ref. p. 329, under tahi. t?*fkufkupi Sw to?fku^fku^pi - to wink, to blink; infl. bato?fku^fku^pi 'I wink or blink'; tcato?fku^fku^pi 'you wink or blink'.; ref. p. 331. The illegible Swanton forms here had both a macron and a circumflex over the /u/ in the card file. t?*f?fha, duf?fha, tuf?fhahi Sw tu?f?fha, duf?fha, tuf?fhahi - to tear; infl. batu?f?fha 'I tear'; tcatu?f?fha 'you tear'.; ref. p. 331. up-l?-le-hi 'swing', presumably iterative. Bob Rankin From BARudes at aol.com Tue Apr 18 22:14:49 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:14:49 EDT Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: Lameen, The working title for my Catawba grammar is the rather unoriginal title "Catawba Grammar and Texts". I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lameen at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 17:01:52 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:01:52 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of > Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. > That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I > located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the > most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. > That would be great. Lameen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 19 17:17:55 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:17:55 -0700 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So true! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: This was in the Indianapolis paper last week. I substituted "Kaw" for "Iroquois" in the original. Bob --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 19 17:36:35 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <375f01a70604191001x63e99763p5b39bd6902d3d064@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? > You may want to try UMI Dissertation Services. I think you can just Google UMI and it comes up. You can order dissertations from them. I ordered the Oliverio dissertation myself through them. It costs about $40 US. Dave Lameen Souag wrote: If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. That would be great. Lameen --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 19 21:06:55 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:06:55 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: You can order American dissertations from University Microfilms International in Ann Arbor, Michigan. (The company may have changed its name, but you should be able to Google it). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Lameen Souag Sent: Wed 4/19/2006 12:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... If you have Giulia Oliverio's doctoral dissertation from the Univ. of Kansas (1996), you have about all there is. That looks rather difficult to find here in London... I don't suppose it's online? Here are some reduplicated forms from the Swanton Ofo dictionary that I located for Randy earlier. Thanks! This is a considerable expansion on what I had. ------------------- I have revised the discussion of reduplication in Catawba somewhat in the most recent version of the grammar. I will send you the revised chapter. That would be great. Lameen From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Apr 20 02:06:10 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:06:10 -0500 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rankin, Robert L wrote: > You can order American dissertations from University Microfilms > International in Ann Arbor, Michigan. (The company may have changed > its name, but you should be able to Google it). http://proquest.com/brand/umi.shtml Alan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 23 16:07:10 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:07:10 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents from other Siouan languages of: taku 'what, something" tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when. sometime' tona 'how many, some' tokhel 'how, somehow' tokha 'what happened, something happened' Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose meaning has changed. Hope you can help Yours Bruce Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Apr 23 18:15:21 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:15:21 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan > Dear Siouanists > I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference > and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in > Lakota/ Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan > languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and > John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I > ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents > from other Siouan languages of: Ioway, Otoe-Missouria ? = glottal stop > taku 'what, something" dagu'; dagu're (something) > tuwe/a 'who, someone' waye're; waye're?sun (someone; somebody; anybody, anyone) > tukte 'which' ha'naha; dana'haje > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tanda' (where; anywhere, somewhere); tan'?sun, tanda're (somewhere) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tanwa', tanda'wa (whereto, whence, whither). Sentence construction can ulter considerably the rendering of the idea "to where, where to, at/ to somewhere, someplace". > tohan/l 'when. sometime' tahe'da (when, whenever); Also suffixes: "-da, -sge". > tona 'how many, some' ta'na, tahe'na; to, he, iyan' (some) > tokhel 'how, somehow' tunt?un, tunt?un?un; > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Da'hga je/ Da'thga je; Dagu'ra je; Hun'ch?e?i > > Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose > meaning has changed. > > Hope you can help > Yours > Bruce > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 23 22:27:23 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:27:23 -0700 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <001401c66702$7df372e0$924e133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Biloxi is far from being adequately analyzed, but here are the basic equivalents I have for some of those (note that c = ch as in church): > taku 'what, something" > kawa, kawak > tuwe/a 'who, someone' > kawa (but note tupeta, whose) > tukte 'which' > cidike > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > cak, cakaN, cuwa > tona 'how many, some' > cinani > tokhel 'how, somehow' > kawakehi ("in what manner") Hope this helps. Dave goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "shokooh Ingham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan > Dear Siouanists > I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference > and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in > Lakota/ Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan > languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and > John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I > ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents > from other Siouan languages of: Ioway, Otoe-Missouria ? = glottal stop > taku 'what, something" dagu'; dagu're (something) > tuwe/a 'who, someone' waye're; waye're?sun (someone; somebody; anybody, anyone) > tukte 'which' ha'naha; dana'haje > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tanda' (where; anywhere, somewhere); tan'?sun, tanda're (somewhere) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tanwa', tanda'wa (whereto, whence, whither). Sentence construction can ulter considerably the rendering of the idea "to where, where to, at/ to somewhere, someplace". > tohan/l 'when. sometime' tahe'da (when, whenever); Also suffixes: "-da, -sge". > tona 'how many, some' ta'na, tahe'na; to, he, iyan' (some) > tokhel 'how, somehow' tunt?un, tunt?un?un; > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Da'hga je/ Da'thga je; Dagu'ra je; Hun'ch?e?i > > Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose > meaning has changed. > > Hope you can help > Yours > Bruce > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Mon Apr 24 00:56:42 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:56:42 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce, In Catawba, the cognates to the Siouan T-words nearly always have interrogative meaning. Non-interrogative meanings are expressed by separate, non-cognate particles (e.g. icep? 'somewhere', akir?? 'some, a few'). Catawba duw?? ~ dur?? 'who, what, which' duw?? t?ni 'why' t?ye'where' t?yece? 'where to' t?me 'when' tan?? 'how many, how much, so many, so much' t?ni ~ t?nice? 'how' tan ak?? 'what's happened; hello' Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 24 16:05:04 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:05:04 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <001401c66702$7df372e0$924e133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Dear Jim, Dave and Blair Thank you for your helpful replies Bruce --- goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "shokooh Ingham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:07 AM > Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in > Siouan > ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon Apr 24 22:40:14 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:40:14 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce: Here are some Crow forms: sa'apa 'what' sa'apdak 'something' sa'apako 'from when, from where' sape'e 'who' sape'elak 'someone' sho'oke 'which' sho'o 'where' sho'ola 'where' sho'onnak 'somewhere' sho'ossee 'where to' sho'on 'where, when' sho'ohtannak 'when (future)' sho'ohtaleesh 'when (past' sa'awi 'how many' sho'ota 'how' sho'otdak 'somehow' sho'ohka 'to what extent' There seem to be four basic stems: sa'apa 'what' sape'e 'who' sho'o 'where' sa'awi 'how many' It will be interesting to see what you come up with! Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 24 23:23:47 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:23:47 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <2a2.8f098a8.317eadce@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > There seem to be four basic stems: > > sa'apa 'what' > sape'e 'who' > sho'o 'where' > sa'awi 'how many' Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 24 23:51:32 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:51:32 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Randy Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > There seem to be four basic stems: > > > > sa'apa 'what' > > sape'e 'who' > > sho'o 'where' > > sa'awi 'how many' > > Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. > And *t > sh / __ i,e > too? > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue Apr 25 00:17:17 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:17:17 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, shokooh Ingham wrote: > taku 'what, something" > tuwe/a 'who, someone' See http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510&L=siouan&P=R4093 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010&L=siouan&P=R1314 > tukte 'which' See http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=R6852 > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' > tohan/l 'when. sometime' > tona 'how many, some' > tokhel 'how, somehow' > tokha 'what happened, something happened' Obliques, see http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9910&L=siouan&P=R2266 More general http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0109&L=siouan&P=R1029 From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 24 22:43:20 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:43:20 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Here are the WH-words from Kaw (Kansa). Long vowels are not completely consistent in my transcription here. Most, but not all, Dakotan T-words are HA-words in Dhegiha dialects. The font below is Gentium Unicode. Bob hw[be, be? def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? hw[b?eski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[d?ada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) def[why? hw[hag?oda, -?? (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hag?ha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hag?jida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[h?na def[how many, how much? hw[h?yoska def[how big, what size? hw[h?wa + positional article def[where is the X shaped obj.? hw[h?wage`ji def[where, to what places hw[ho?oski (JOD) def[random, at, in no particular rem[place. hw[wia?ma (JOD) def[which, which one? hw[wia?maskida? (JOD) def[whichever, whichever one hw[w?amatta (JOD) def[whose is it? Which one are rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Sun 4/23/2006 11:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Dear Siouanists I am thinking of what to do in the coming conference and would like to look comparatively at the T-words in Dakotan and their equivalents in other Siouan languages. Caroline has kindly given me the Osage and John has given me some hints on Dheghiha. Could I ask anyone who has the time to give me the equivalents from other Siouan languages of: taku 'what, something" tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when. sometime' tona 'how many, some' tokhel 'how, somehow' tokha 'what happened, something happened' Please send cognates or non-cognates or cognates whose meaning has changed. Hope you can help Yours Bruce Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Apr 25 15:32:19 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:32:19 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: In a message dated 4/24/2006 5:26:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: i,e,u, and o. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 25 20:25:47 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:25:47 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: I thought *s > /ts/ in Hidatsa and /t/ in Crow. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 10:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In a message dated 4/24/2006 5:26:41 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Of course, if I recall right, *t > s / __a in Crow. And *t > sh / __ i,e too? T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: i,e,u, and o. Randy From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 26 01:12:12 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:12:12 EDT Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Hidatsa /ts/ corresponds to Crow /t/ before /a/, and to /ch/ (that's the practical orthography) before a non-low vowel. So from a historical standpoint, I guess we can say that PSi *t becomes s and *s becomes t. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:25:58 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:25:58 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <3e5.7395f5.318022ec@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Hidatsa /ts/ corresponds to Crow /t/ before /a/, and to /ch/ (that's the > practical orthography) before a non-low vowel. So from a historical > standpoint, I guess we can say that PSi *t becomes s and *s becomes t. Also per Randy: > T-words in Crow are S(H)-words. T > sh before all non-low vowels: > i,e,u, and o. I think PS *t only becomes Cr s before a, as in the possessed forms where PMV *hta- 'alienable' comes out sa-, or the question words. But I think that Randy was confirming that when he said *T-words (question/indefinite words) were S(H)-words in Crow. I had a vague recollection that *t and *s merged, but clearly not, from Randy's summary above! In any event the history of *t, *s, and *s^ is quite involved in Crow-Hidatsa and Mandan. With various cases of inversion. Apart from Randy's comment, Matthews, famously, has pointed out that PS *s > Ma s^ and PS *s^ > Ma s. I think this was the basis for Wolff's earlier suggestion that the PS segments were *s and *c^. Note that PS *t is being used here as a sort of shorthand for *ht, *th, *t, and *t?. === Returning to Bruce's original question, I gather, Bruce, that you might be more interested in the merged interrogative and indefinite behavior of the Tpwords and perhaps in their syntax generally, than with their phonological forms per se, or perhaps the T-categories distingusihed, e.g., is 'why' distinguished form 'how', etc. I have a slight tendency to tackle an expression like T-word in phonological terms, but I assume you are using the phrase by analogy with the English expression WH-words, or Latin Qu-words, etc. As Bob says, in Dhegiha these are mostly ha-words, though there are three or four other elements that figure in Dhegiha, e.g., *ta in 'what' forms, *pe in 'who' forms, and (wi)awa(N)- in 'which of two' forms. The last probably has something to do with PS forms for 'one' and 'other'. And, of course, in Omaha-Ponca *ha- comes out a-, as it 'appens: one of a small set of forms where OP and Da have a vowel initial, but the rest of MVS has h. There are a few cases of *(h)a- as a question root elsewhere in Mississippi Valley, mainly in Winnebago and IO, but otherwise *tV (V = some vowel) seems to be the usual one, except for *pe which is common for 'who'. The other bits attached to these roots tend to occur also with demonstatives and some nouns as "tight postpositions" or other enclitic modifiers. I say "other enclitic modifiers" because I have trouble thinking of things like *na(N) 'quantity' and *htaN 'extent' as postpositions. These things have always interested me, perhaps because I was bitten as a teenager by a table of Latin "correlatives." From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 26 20:33:50 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:33:50 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, John may have already sent you the OP question words to match your list, but I haven't otherwise seen a posting for OP. I've been going through (~ the first 50 pages of) Dorsey's Dhegiha Language texts along with our Omaha class, and have been pulling out the words and sorting them into categories. Here's what I've gotten so far for "Question Words": a'gudi where? (location) a'qtaN How possible? a'naska what size? (probably a'raNska in modern Omaha) a'ttaN why? atHaN' What time (of day)? a'wakHE'di in what place a'wahnaNkHa'ce which one of you? a'waraN Which/What/Where is (globular object)? a'watHe'gaN of what sort? ea'ttaN why? ea'ttaN a'daN why? wherefore? ea'ttaN e'daN why? wherefore? (in thought) e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] E'be who? iNda'daN what?; something eda'daN what wiN'aNwa which one? wiN'aNwatta ? in which direction? I also have a subcategory entitled "-soever": a'gudi ratHi' e'iNtt(H)e - wherever you may have come from atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) da'daN what, whatever eda'daN what; whatever (eda'd ?i'rai - what they speak of) ede'he what I say Ebe'ctE anybody at all (Ebe'ctE ua'kkie ma'ji - I wasn't talking to anyone) INda'daNctE whatever cte'cte soever cte'ctewaN' soever A few common modern ones haven't shown up yet, at least in the usual form. These include: awa'tta where, in what direction eaN' how awiN'aNwa which one a'naN how many ede' What did s/he say? ede's^e What did you say? ede'pHe What did I say? a'watHe'gaN X UmaN'haN ie' tHE a'watHe'gaN? How do you say X in Omaha? So to match with your Dakotan list: taku 'what, something" iNda'daN, eda'daN tuwe/a 'who, someone' ebe' tukte 'which' awiN'aNwa(N) tuktel 'where, somewhere' a'gudi (-di postposition) tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' awa'tta (-tta postposition) tohan/l 'when. sometime' atHaN' tona 'how many, some' a'naN tokhel 'how, somehow' eaN' tokha 'what happened, something happened' ? It looks like 'who', 'when' and 'how many' probably have cognate roots. I wonder if Dakotan taku matches the root part of OP a'gu-di, which would make the OP word for 'where at' mean "at what". The use of awa- with positionals is interesting. Hope this helps! Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:39:16 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:39:16 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <375f01a70604181423ka38c1c2r33ae71a40f44fdbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Lameen Souag wrote: > * Are there any handy summaries of reduplication in Dhegiha, other than > Boas' for Ponca? I think the places to look are: - Carolyn Quintero's Osage Grammar, of course, as Bob indicated. - LaFlesche's Osage dictionary (which requires a bit of a user's guide to render into Osage from its OPage form) - Very limited list in my very crude OP grammar of some years back. - Rather better list, I think, in the (?) Hahn Ponca ms. - Bob's Kansa and Quapaw Lexicons (ciruclate in draft). - Dorsey's OP texts. As it happens, I am about to make a copy of my grammar for someone, and I have an extra copy of Hahn. > * Does reduplication ever occur in Hidatsa? Indudubitably. As opposed to indubdubitably, or so I believe. I think it would be safe to say that reduplication occurs in all Siouan languages (or maybe all languages?), though the form, extent of productivity, and function varies. For Winnebago and IO, I think there are remarks in Lipkind and maybe Whitman, but I would go to Jimm Good Tracks dictionary for the latter, which may still be available from the CU Linguistics Department. > Incidentally, my conclusion so far (perhaps unsurprisingly) is that > reduplication in a pluractional sense is unquestionably reconstructible for > Proto-Siouan-Catawban, and in an adjectival inanimate plural sense is > probably reconstructible for Proto-Siouan, despite having a much more > limited distribution (only Crow, Ohio Valley, and Dakotan so far.) If > anyone's interested, I'd be happy to send a copy after I finish it next > week. Oops. I see I am late! I'm not sure what an adjectival inanimate plural sense is. Something like 'some quality here and there' or 'instances of a quality'? From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 20:43:56 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:43:56 -0600 Subject: FW: Illegal immigrants. In-Reply-To: <20060419171755.12822.qmail@web53812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, David Kaufman wrote: > So true! I've always wondered if the outward spead of Oneota might not suggest a propensity for emigration by early Mississippi Valley Siouan speakers. Perhaps we could imagine a resident of Cahokia thinking dark thoughts about early Kaws, too. :-) From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Apr 26 21:51:51 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:51:51 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > John may have already sent you the OP question words to match your list, > but I haven't otherwise seen a posting for OP. I've been intending to, but it's a longish list and I haven't had time! > I've been going through (~ the first 50 pages of) Dorsey's Dhegiha > Language texts along with our Omaha class, and have been pulling out the > words and sorting them into categories. Here's what I've gotten so far > for "Question Words": > > a'gudi where? (location) I make this (etymologically) a-gu-di or, in PMV terms, *(h)a "T" + *ku 'yonder' + *tu LOCATIVE. It reminds me of naval "where away?" > a'qtaN How possible? I'm thinking that the reading for this one is more like "how on earth" than "how can," but I'd be very interested to heat the contemporary take on this! I think the morphosyntax is a=xt(i)=aN, with aN being the aN that appears more below. Is there a variant eaxtaN, or am I crossing this up with something else? > a'naska what size? (probably a'raNska in modern Omaha) > a'ttaN why? Also eattaN, I think, though the e may belong syntactically to the preceding phrase, making it a cleft or focussed element. OK, I see it below! > atHaN' What time (of day)? > > a'wakHE'di in what place > a'wahnaNkHa'ce which one of you? > a'waraN Which/What/Where is (globular object)? > a'watHe'gaN of what sort? These forms have the awa(N) 'which of two (or several definite possibilities) prefix. This reading is rather notional on my part, however. The -kHe- element is a positional, as you see, other forms with -tHe-, -dhaN- (or -naN-), but not, I think, -ge-, turn up. Even some with animate positionals, i.e., hnaNkHa=s^e 'you-all-the-sitting', which I did not recall! Nice! The final elements are (nil) 'what/which', di 'locative', gaN 'kind', so the general formula is awa + POSITIONAL + NATURE. > ea'ttaN why? > ea'ttaN a'daN why? wherefore? > ea'ttaN e'daN why? wherefore? (in thought) The -daN element, also in dadaN 'what' is throughout the texts for "in thought" and seems to mark a contingent quotation in those contexts. I have been thinking of it as a marker of "contingency" or "dependent conditionality." I assume that adaN and edaN have a contrast something like interrogative vs. demonstrative, but e tends to wander into question forms instead of a or in addition to it (e-a-). Since the inspiration came to me that -e in various contexts is a "cleft" or "focus" marker, I've tended to see the intial e-'s in question forms in that light, but fused proclitically to the following element rather than enclitically to the preceding. > e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] In effect "who on earth"? > E'be who? See if you can find a consistent difference between e'be and ebe'. Dorsey suggests there is one. This could be right or wrong. > iNda'daN what?; something > eda'daN what I gather than no one hears a difference between these today? I think that there is one in the texts, along the lines of indefinite (no particular answer imagined) vs. definite (some particular set of answers imagined, i.e., more like which). > wiN'aNwa which one? > wiN'aNwatta ? in which direction? I take these to be awa(N) forms with prefixed wi(N). It may be that the the nasality percolates through from wiN, rather than being part of awa itself, except that there are those aNwa or awaN forms meaning 'other'. (In which w is often m.) > I also have a subcategory entitled "-soever": > > a'gudi ratHi' e'iNtt(H)e - wherever you may have come from Basically, a(a)'gudi 'where' plus dhatHi 'you arrive here' + (e)iNtHe 'perhaps', though 'perhaps' is a gloss of convenience. I think (e)iNtHe and some similar elements including maybe (e)de and (e)daN are OP modals. > atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) Hmm. I wonder if this is atH(e) + aN=xti 'when on earth', by analogy with (e)axtaN 'how on earth' and eaNxti 'who on earth'. > da'daN what, whatever > eda'daN what; whatever (eda'd ?i'rai - what they speak of) > ede'he what I say In effect, the last is a verb e-d(a)-e-PRO-(h)e 'to say something, to say what'. I've always found this a bit astounding, but similar forms, differing somewhat in morphology, appear in Dakota, etc., too. In this category also go forms like g(a)-e-PRO-(h)e 'to say what follows' vs. e-PRO-(h)e 'to say what precedes'. Dakota also have forms of 'to say' with the various demonstratives. These forms tend to suggest that e, the demonstatives, and the interrogative-indefinites are a class historically, while also showing that e- in the intials of verbs of speaking and thinking has become opaque and is no longer seen as a demonstrative. > Ebe'ctE anybody at all (Ebe'ctE ua'kkie ma'ji - I wasn't talking > to anyone) > INda'daNctE whatever > cte'cte soever > cte'ctewaN' soever The forms with s^te are pretty regularly translated with -(so)ever by Dorsey. (Warning: It took me the better part of a day once to realize that =j^te or something like that in modern speech was =daN=s^te said really fast!) This =s^te enclitic is analogous syntactically to =xti 'true(ly), very' (just like English very < vrai), =s^ti 'too', =s^naN (=hnaN, =naN) 'exclusively, only' > 'habitually'. Rory, any ideas on when it's =s^tes^te not =s^te (reduplicators take note) or =s^tewaN? I assume the latter is =s^te=waN or =s^te=aN, where perhaps the (w)aN has something to do with the aN that appears with =xti and =naN when they are inflected (e.g., =xti=maN, =xti=z^aN). Bob suggests this is an old perfective auxiliary. What is the linguistic approach to "(so)ever"? It seems to have something to do with there being a class of things over which the reference ranges. There is a name, for example, GdhedaNs^temiN, that seems to be 'any hawk (so-ever) woman', and then there is also the clan name We'z^iNs^te 'Elk', which seems to be 'any (or all) willful (or angry?) ones', from wa-iz^iN 'to think (suspect?) something; to be angry, to be willful'. The glossing may need a lot of work here. > A few common modern ones haven't shown up yet, at least in the usual form. > These include: > > awa'tta where, in what direction > eaN' how I've also seen cases of just aN for 'how', and sometimes just aN appears as a conjunction in lieu of egaN. That may be dialect usage, since it's rare and a speaker that does it tends to do it consistently, as far as I can recall. > awiN'aNwa which one a "T" + wi(N) + awa(N) > a'naN how many Definitely in the texts. > ede' What did s/he say? > ede's^e What did you say? > ede'pHe What did I say? Cf. edehe above. > a'watHe'gaN X UmaN'haN ie' tHE a'watHe'gaN? > How do you say X in Omaha? Or awa 'which of several' + tHe positional for stack + gaN 'manner', although relative to tHe, notice that it also concords with UmaNhaN ie tHe. Note that Rory and I are writing H (superscript h) as a reflection of the new "popular" orthographies. I'm neglecting E (which Rory thinks may contrast with e) in these contexts because I think the "eh" pronunciation in tHe and kHe reflects the affect of aspiration on the vowel. Rory seems to be writing r now for dh (popular system th), which makes perfect sense. > So to match with your Dakotan list: > > taku 'what, something" iNda'daN, eda'daN > tuwe/a 'who, someone' ebe' > tukte 'which' awiN'aNwa(N) > tuktel 'where, somewhere' a'gudi (-di postposition) > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' awa'tta (-tta postposition) > tohan/l 'when. sometime' atHaN' > tona 'how many, some' a'naN > tokhel 'how, somehow' eaN' > tokha 'what happened, something happened' ? While the use of particular forms may have become somewhat stylized, today and in Dorsey's time, too, I think that the OP forms may require a bit more of a matrix for 'where, when, how X' where X = many, far, high, etc.: agudi | ( ( a | (wiN)awa ) + (POSITIONAL) + KIND ) Substitute (edadaN | iNdadaN) for agudi and omit KIND and you get the 'what/which' formula. For 'how' it's (e)aN. For 'why' it's (e)attaN. (I've nver been quite sure if it was =ttaN or tHaN here.) The difference between 'how' and 'why', or the usage of them, is not the same as in English. > It looks like 'who', 'when' and 'how many' probably have cognate roots. I > wonder if Dakotan taku matches the root part of OP a'gu-di, which would > make the OP word for 'where at' mean "at what". I think so. Winnebago has j^aagu 'what'. I assume that *ku in these forms once meant something like 'remote' or 'away from here' and that perhaps use of localizing particles in company with interrogatives was more general in PMV than it is in the modern languages. A few relicts remain without the localizing sense. > The use of awa- with positionals is interesting. I notice that positionals aren't used with (h)a-. This may be because the awa(N) expressions were originally not interrogative in morphology, and so have more features of standard noun phrases. However, there are some rare a-POSIT- forms. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Apr 27 02:51:06 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:51:06 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > Note that Rory and I are writing H (superscript h) as a reflection of the new "popular" orthographies. I'm neglecting E (which Rory thinks may contrast with e) in these contexts because I think the "eh" pronunciation in tHe and kHe reflects the affect of aspiration on the vowel. > Rory seems to be writing r now for dh (popular system th), which makes perfect sense. Oops. I should have explained that I was following Dorsey's orthography as much as possible in assembling these lists. I really hate digraphs, especially the ambiguous 'th', and Dorsey is kind enough not to use them. I'm typing these into Notepad in straight ASCII so I don't have to worry about special fonts. What has evolved is a very serviceable, if unholy, mixture of Dorsey with NetSiouan. So in these word lists, c means esh (s^) and j means ezh (z^), as Dorsey had them. I don't have a cent sign in Notepad or on my keyboard, so I made the executive decision to use r for ledh (dh), which, I agree, makes perfect sense. I'm trying to normalize the stop consonant series, which he failed to complete, as e.g. d, tt, tH, t?, and ct, and I rely on our speakers to help me there. Where I'm not sure if e.g. a t in Dorsey is tense or aspirated, I write it tt(H) on the theory that that will irk me enough to remember to ask the speakers. The alveolar affricate series has to be handled as dj, ttc, tcH, etc. Otherwise, I'm mostly following his usage. The velar fricatives are q (harsh, or voiceless) and x (soft, or voiced). Dorsey was very good about distinguishing these, and the Fletcher and La Fleche-based orthographies since then have not been. I use upper-case vowels A, E, and I where Dorsey uses a short-vowel symbol (little bowl over the vowel). Presumably he heard a phonetic distinction here: I'm not claiming the distinction was necessarily phonemic, but am only recording the difference for tracking purposes, in hopes it will help us figure out what the rule for the distinction was. John, I'll write back more, hopefully tomorrow or the next day. I have a Japanese final tomorrow to study for, so I'll have to shut up till then! Rory From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Apr 27 02:17:14 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:17:14 -0500 Subject: Fw: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >I think you could put this one on the list. It's a bit political, > naturally, and it's a good idea to avoid politics on the list, but the > politics of it are relevant in a very linguistic way. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:36 AM >> Subject: Fw: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> FromSubject: H.R. 4766 Native Languages >> >> >> From: NIEA at niea.org [_ mailto:NIEA at niea.org] _ >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:56 AM >> To: David Beaulieu >> Subject: NIEA Broadcast #06-022 >> >> _ _ >> >> National Indian Education Association >> 110 Maryland Avenue, N.E. >> Suite 104 >> Washington, D.C. 20002 >> P: (202) 544-7290 / F: (202) 544-7293 >> >> April 24, 2006 >> Broadcast #06-022 >> >> LEGISLATIVE ALERT >> >> NIEA is asking for all Tribes and tribal members to send the following >> letter to the Education and Workforce Committee _ >> >> _ in the United States House of Representatives. >> >> NIEA has been working very hard to get a hearing on H.R. 4766, the >> Native American Languages Preservation Act of 2006, and requests your >> assistance in asking the Education and Workforce Committee to hold a >> hearing or mark-up on the bill during this legislative session. H.R. 4766 >> _ >> _ was >> introduced by Representatives Rick Renzi (R-AZ) and Heather Wilson (R-NM) >> on >> February 15, 2006. >> >> Click on the above link to access the letter template for the House >> Education and Workforce Committee. >> >> For more information or if you have any questions, please feel free to >> contact NIEA at (202)544-7290. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low >> rates. > From cstelfer at ucalgary.ca Thu Apr 27 23:01:39 2006 From: cstelfer at ucalgary.ca (cstelfer at ucalgary.ca) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:01:39 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Koontz wrote: > > I think it would be safe to say that reduplication occurs in all Siouan > languages (or maybe all languages?), though the form, extent of > productivity, and function varies. One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just create confusion. This subject does have a small connection to Siouan reduplication. Shaw (1980) includes the word siksika 'the Blackfoot people' in her section on Dakota reduplication, but she could not find a root word sika. As far as I can tell, this is because siksika is a borrowed word, and is not a result of reduplication, even though it looks identical to reduplicated forms. Siksika is the term that the Blackfoot people use to refer to themselves. Here is a gloss of this word in Blackfoot (as I recall it): siksi + ka 'black' + 'foot' Just some thoughts, Corey. From warr0120 at umn.edu Thu Apr 27 23:14:39 2006 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:14:39 -0500 Subject: pages from meyer In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: 166: re: Santee ILCs 354: re: termination and inadequacy of land administration system -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00354.tif Type: image/tiff Size: 84396 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00166.tif Type: image/tiff Size: 86156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Apr 28 01:26:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:26:20 -0600 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 cstelfer at ucalgary.ca wrote: > One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is > Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small > phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just > create confusion. But I think reduplication is fairly common in Algonquian as a whole, right? Maybe not quite as pervasive as in Dakotan or, say, Indonesian! > This subject does have a small connection to Siouan reduplication. Shaw > (1980) includes the word siksika 'the Blackfoot people' in her section on > Dakota reduplication, but she could not find a root word sika. As far as > I can tell, this is because siksika is a borrowed word, and is not a > result of reduplication, even though it looks identical to reduplicated > forms. Siksika is the term that the Blackfoot people use to refer to > themselves. Here is a gloss of this word in Blackfoot (as I recall it): > > siksi + ka > 'black' + 'foot' > > Just some thoughts, Well, send in some more! This was pretty interesting. I was just musing on how seeing even a Siouan language in purely Siouan terms is sort of one dimensional, and here's a nice case in point. Last night I saw a note on the Web suggesting that Gothic reduplication might be a "recent" (post Proto-Germanic) innovation, a case of analogy with a few always reduplicated Germanic preterites run wild. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Fri Apr 28 01:37:01 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (david costa) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:37:01 -0700 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... Message-ID: I would predict that reduplication is present in every Algonquian language other than Blackfoot. It's quite common in all the Algonquian languages I'm familiar with, tho some languages use it more than others. Proto-Algonquian appears to have had several different patterns of reduplications that carried with them important semantic differences. However, the whole topic hasn't been systematically studied for very long, or for many of the languages. Many grammars ignore it or barely cover it. Dave >> One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication is >> Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has a small >> phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication would just >> create confusion. > >But I think reduplication is fairly common in Algonquian as a whole, >right? Maybe not quite as pervasive as in Dakotan or, say, Indonesian! From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Apr 28 10:35:49 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:35:49 +0200 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <3058.161.184.113.207.1146178899.squirrel@161.184.113.207> Message-ID: Dear Corey, > One language that does not seem to have any type of reduplication > is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact that Blackfoot has > a small phoneme inventory and fairly long morphemes. Reduplication > would just create confusion. I'm not so sure about some 3, 4, 5 phonemes less than in some "vanillish" Algonquian lg. really making such a big difference, and, of course, one always might consider the option of only partial reduplication. But maybe that's the general linguistic dilemma of attempting at a posteriori explanations. I'm also not really sure about BF morphemes as a rule being so terribly long. We also in other Algonquian lgs. at times have seemingly long morphemes, which probably consist several we simply can't analyze. Alas, concering the state of BF lexicography, I must say that reading text with the dictionaries by Uhlenbeck/Van Gulik and Frantz/Russell isn't exactly fun. > siksi + ka > 'black' + 'foot' Actually "black, dark" is sik- only, with connective -i- and an inserted euphonic -s-. All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:22:46 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:22:46 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Rory Very useful Bruce--- Rory M Larson wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > John may have already sent you the OP question words > to match your list,. Here's what I've gotten so far for > "Question Words": > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:34:01 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:34:01 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <44520C25.31169.55B12B@localhost> Message-ID: Dear Heiki As you seem to know about Blackfoot, do you know what their Wh-words are. I've got them for Cree, Cheyenne and Ojibway, but Blackfoot would be an interesting addition to the list. I'm looking at a Siouan-Algonquian comparison. The Lakota words are called T-words because they begin with t---and are as follows: tokhel 'how, somehow' tona 'how many, some' taku 'what, something" tokha 'what happened, something happened' tuktel 'where, somewhere' tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' tohan/l 'when, sometime' tuwe/a 'who, someone' tukte 'which' Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? Bruce - Heike B?deker wrote: > Dear Corey, > > > One language that does not seem to have any type > of reduplication > > is Blackfoot. This is probably due to the fact > that Blackfoot has > > a small phoneme inventory and fairly long > morphemes. Reduplication > > would just create confusion. > > I'm not so sure about some 3, 4, 5 phonemes less > than in some > "vanillish" Algonquian lg. really making such a big > difference, and, > of course, one always might consider the option of > only partial > reduplication. But maybe that's the general > linguistic dilemma of > attempting at a posteriori explanations. > > I'm also not really sure about BF morphemes as a > rule being so > terribly long. We also in other Algonquian lgs. at > times have > seemingly long morphemes, which probably consist > several we simply > can't analyze. Alas, concering the state of BF > lexicography, I must > say that reading text with the dictionaries by > Uhlenbeck/Van Gulik > and Frantz/Russell isn't exactly fun. > > > siksi + ka > > 'black' + 'foot' > > Actually "black, dark" is sik- only, with connective > -i- and an > inserted euphonic -s-. > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ Win tickets to the 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany with Yahoo! Messenger. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/fifaworldcup_uk/ From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 28 15:33:43 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:33:43 +0100 Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <20060423160710.14097.qmail@web26811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob You recently sent me a lot of useful date about T- words. I copied the data and your name, but not the name of the language . It included data beginning like this: hw[be, be? def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? hw[b?eski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[d?ada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) def[why? hw[hag?oda, -?? (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hag?ha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hag?jida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[h?na def[how many, how much? hw[h?yoska def[how big, what size? Could you remind me what the language was. Thanks Bruce ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Apr 28 15:50:33 2006 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:50:33 -0600 Subject: first language acquisition Message-ID: Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is anyone actively working on this? Mary Marino From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Fri Apr 28 20:22:55 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 22:22:55 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060428133401.27503.qmail@web26804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > The Lakota words are called T-words because they begin > with t- Like onsets (be it by identical roots, by sound symbolism or just profane analogy) of demonstratives and interrogatives are attested in many lgs. resp. lg. families, e.g. in Indo-European we have interrogatives/indefinites/relatives in *kW-, distals in *s-/*t-, proximals in *i-/*e-, in Dravidian distals in *a-, contingents in *u- , proximals in *i- and interrogatives in *yaa-/*ee-, etc. etc. > Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? Sure. Actually, they're more fully treated in the standard grammars by Frantz (1991: 134-138), Taylor (1969: 164, 213ff) and Uhlenbeck (1938: 104-108). They're involving two interrogative roots, t- (ts- resulting from a following *i, which is perfectly regular) and s- (pace Taylor), as well as a demonstrative called into this special service, and manner preverbs. Obviously, there's considerable dialectal and historical variation involved, but, alas, the full picture is not attested. > taku 'what, something" ts? (non-human animate or inanimate) "what?" [ts? niit- "what manner? how?", ts? aanist- "id."; ts? anistsii- "be what time? be when?"] ?ahsa (inaminate) "what?" > tokhel 'how, somehow' s.a. > tona 'how many, some' s.a. [ts? niitsi- "be what number? be how many?"] > tokha 'what happened, something happened' s.a. > tuktel 'where, somewhere' tsim? "where?", or distal ann- with non-affirmative verbal inflection (e.g. ann?atsiksi k?ko'siksi? "where are your kids?") > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' s.a. (e.g. tsim? kit?akitap??hpa? "where will you go?") > tohan/l 'when, sometime' s.a. > tuwe/a 'who, someone' tahk?a, tak?? (obviative: tsik?a) "who?" > tukte 'which' tsk? "why? which?" tsiy? "which?" (i)m?ak- (Piikani (i)m?o'k-) "why?" All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 28 21:36:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:36:35 -0500 Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Those were from Kansa or Kaw. The second set was from Quapaw. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:33 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Question to Bob reDakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Bob You recently sent me a lot of useful date about T- words. I copied the data and your name, but not the name of the language . It included data beginning like this: hw[be, be? def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? hw[b?eski def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[d?ada def[what, something hw[da?aska def[something, thing hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) def[why? hw[hag?oda, -?? (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hag?ha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hag?jida (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakha? def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakha?ada, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakha?ji hw[hakha?go (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[hakha?aji, -a?? (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakha?da hw[hakha?ske (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakha?zi (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[h?na def[how many, how much? hw[h?yoska def[how big, what size? Could you remind me what the language was. Thanks Bruce ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 28 21:41:20 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:41:20 -0500 Subject: first language acquisition Message-ID: Personally, I haven't heard of anyone working on that. Where would you do the work except in a very few Dakotan and Crow communities? B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:50 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: first language acquisition Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is anyone actively working on this? Mary Marino From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 29 18:51:32 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 19:51:32 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <445295BF.21250.8541B3@localhost> Message-ID: Dear Heie Thanks. Did you have the words for 'when' and 'why' ? We have got Uhlenbeck at SOAS, but unfortunately I'm housebound at the moment Bruce --- Heike B?deker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Could you tell me the Blackfoot equivalents? > > Sure. Actually, they're more fully treated in the > standard grammars > by Frantz (1991: 134-138), Taylor (1969: 164, 213ff) > and Uhlenbeck > (1938: 104-108). They're involving two interrogative > roots, t- (ts- > resulting from a following *i, which is perfectly > regular) and s- > (pace Taylor), as well as a demonstrative called > into this special > service, and manner preverbs. Obviously, there's > considerable > dialectal and historical variation involved, but, > alas, the full > picture is not attested. > > > taku 'what, something" > > ts? (non-human animate or inanimate) "what?" [ts? > niit- "what manner? > how?", ts? aanist- "id."; ts? anistsii- "be what > time? be when?"] > > ?ahsa (inaminate) "what?" > > > tokhel 'how, somehow' > > s.a. > > > tona 'how many, some' > > s.a. [ts? niitsi- "be what number? be how many?"] > > > tokha 'what happened, something happened' > > s.a. > > > tuktel 'where, somewhere' > > tsim? "where?", or distal ann- with non-affirmative > verbal inflection > (e.g. ann?atsiksi k?ko'siksi? "where are your > kids?") > > > tokhiya 'where to, somewhere' > > s.a. (e.g. tsim? kit?akitap??hpa? "where will you > go?") > > > tohan/l 'when, sometime' > > s.a. > > > tuwe/a 'who, someone' > > tahk?a, tak?? (obviative: tsik?a) "who?" > > > tukte 'which' > > tsk? "why? which?" > > tsiy? "which?" > > (i)m?ak- (Piikani (i)m?o'k-) "why?" > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ Introducing the new Yahoo! Answers Beta ? A new place to get answers to your questions ? Try it http://uk.answers.yahoo.com From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Apr 30 04:09:18 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:09:18 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Some time ago, the list was addressing the conjugation of the verb "?o'" (??) [wound] which occurs in many Siouan Languages. While looking for something else, in "A Dictionary of Everyday Crow", Crow Agency Bilingual Education Program. 1987 (revised), I came upon: 1. uua' (v tr) /uu/ shoot -- on p.20. No conjugations were provided. (See Below) 2. oo'xpe (v tr) /i/ shoot, wound -- p.x; 20: He... oo'xpik; They... oo'xpuuk I... boo'xpik; We... boo'xpuuk you... doo'xpik; You (pl) doo'xpuuk Shoot! oo'xpih; Shoot! (pl) oo'xpaalah Then In "Crow word list", Lowie. 1960. p.170: u': (u) to shoot, wound, hit ma u' om they shot some (game) akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k one of the Cheyenne headcutters) I shot u'ak arapapa'ce de'sa ka'te tseruk when they hit him, the bullet did not go in I also note that Hidatsa "Wordlist", Jones. Preliminary Version, 1979: 1. Shoot u?u-axbi; ni?i 2. Shoot & hit ??u 3, Shoot at ?rigi; ni (No conjugations offered) Now then... Does any of the above shed any new light on arriving at likely conjugations for the verb - ?o' (??). Could this be a word that conjugates similar to the IOM: ?uN' (??n = to do, make; act as/ in manner of), namely: I... ha?uN'; you... ra?uN'; we... hin?uN'wi; etc. Just wondering and not giving up yet. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sun Apr 30 11:18:24 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:18:24 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060429185133.3104.qmail@web26802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > Did you have the words for 'when' Yes, they were included. This one is a preverb: >> (i)m?ak- (Piikani (i)m?o'k-) "why?" > and 'why' ? This is a combination with a verb. Whereby actually I'm wondering whether this one might simply be waanisttsi- (AI) "do" rather than something so highly specialized as to mean "be ... time" -? (The w- drop is regular, and also the quantity might have be difficult to hear.) >> ts? anistsii- "be what time? be when?" All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 30 14:13:52 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:13:52 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <4454B920.9343.155B9BA@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks Heike, This is all very useful. Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like Lakota tokhel ? Bruce --- Heike B?deker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Did you have the words for 'when' > > Yes, they were included. This one is a preverb: > > >> (i)m?ak- (Piikani (i)m?o'k-) "why?" > > > and 'why' ? > > This is a combination with a verb. Whereby actually > I'm wondering > whether this one might simply be waanisttsi- (AI) > "do" rather than > something so highly specialized as to mean "be ... > time" -? (The w- > drop is regular, and also the quantity might have be > difficult to > hear.) > > >> ts? anistsii- "be what time? be when?" > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Sun Apr 30 16:19:44 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:19:44 +0200 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <20060430141352.3506.qmail@web26812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, > Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like Lakota > tokhel ? Yes: > ts? niit- "what manner? how?" Whereby this one leads us back to question of reduplication, as it has a variant aanist- "manner" with the regular Alg. replacement of the root vocalism by aa, *-h- insertion (with regular assibilation in BF), as well as initial drop. To make matters worse, subsequent restaurations also occur, that is including also false restaurations... Other standard examples are BF paap?- "dream" from reduplicated PA *aahpaw- "dream" (unreduplicated *paw-), or BF ?mahk- /?mahk- "big, old" from PA *(m)amank- "big". All the best, Heike From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 30 17:24:02 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:24:02 +0100 Subject: Blackfoot Wh-words enquiry In-Reply-To: <4454FFC0.16519.2A1DFC@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks Heike Got it Bruce --- Heike B?deker wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > > Was there one for 'how, in what manner' like > Lakota > > tokhel ? > > Yes: > > > ts? niit- "what manner? how?" > > Whereby this one leads us back to question of > reduplication, as it > has a variant aanist- "manner" with the regular Alg. > replacement of > the root vocalism by aa, *-h- insertion (with > regular assibilation in > BF), as well as initial drop. To make matters worse, > subsequent > restaurations also occur, that is including also > false > restaurations... Other standard examples are BF > paap?- "dream" from > reduplicated PA *aahpaw- "dream" (unreduplicated > *paw-), or BF ?mahk- > /?mahk- "big, old" from PA *(m)amank- "big". > > All the best, > > Heike > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos ? NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com