From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Aug 6 07:26:41 2006 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:26:41 +1000 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] Message-ID: Hello folks, For what it is worth, in an article entitled: "An Investigation of the early bands of the Saone group of Teton Sioux", written by "HARRY ANDERSON, St. Albans, N.Y. (Communicated by John C. Ewers)", in the JOURNAL OF THE WASHINGTON ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, Vol. 46, No. 3, [pp.87-94], dated March 1956, he had the following to say, inter alia, on this topic, which may be of interest to people here : "The term Saone was used extensively on the Upper Missouri during the period 1800-1850, when referring to the five tribes of northern Tetons, the Minneconjous, Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Hunkpapas, and Blackfeet Sioux." (p.87)......."The origin and meaning of the name Saone is not definitely known, for during the 1880's when the missionaries were making their inquiries concerning the Teton bands, the name had then gone out of common usage, and little reliable information could be obtained from the Sioux regarding its meaning. The first known use of the name was by Truteau, who recorded in his journal that a Sioux band called "Chahony" was expected to arrive at the Arrikara village late in the summer of 1795 for the purpose of trade. The best study to date on Saone origins, based upon the available sources, can be found in Hyde's history of the Oglalas. [HYDE, George E., "Red Cloud's Folk": 12-13. Norman, Okla., 1937.] It is his conclusion that the name was given originally to the northern Teton group by the southern Tetons, the Oglalas and Brules, and IN SOME MANNER REFERRED "SHOOTING IN THE TREES", OR LIVING AND HUNTING IN WOODED AREAS." (p. 87.) [ See also 1) the : "History of the expedition under the command of Lewis & Clark", edited by Elliott Coues, 1: 101. NY, 1893.; 2): "Journal of Jean Baptiste Truteau among the Arikara Indians in 1795", South Dakota hist. Coll. 7: 473.] Further, in "SIOUX UNTIL 1850" by Raymond J. DeMallie, in Vol.13, Part 2 of 2, "Plains", of the Smithsonian Inst.'s "Handbook of North American Indians" ( Gen.ed. William C. Sturtevant) (2001), writes thus ( on p. 757) : "SAONE The Saone, the fourth major Teton tribe in the early nineteenth century, by the mid nineteenth century had broken up into four separate tribes - Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Blackfeet, and Hunkpapa. Two other groups that were probably Saone but were no longer recognized in the twentieth century were the His Bad heart and Wanonwaktenihan. The Minneconjou were also sometimes treated as a Saone band.[refs.] The name Saone was undoubtedly a self designation, BUT THE PRECISE FORM OF THE WORD AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE ARE NO LONGER KNOWN. Nicollet [ref.] translated the name as 'whitish people, whose robes are always well whitened with white earth', comprised of sa [saN] 'whitish' and a putative verb stem 'oni' 'to rub', but that etymology is not satisfactory. S.R. Riggs [ref.] wrote that the nane was Sanoni-wicasa (that is saN?oni wichasha 'Sanoni man' ) and was a nickname that the Brule and Oglala formerly applied to the Sans Arcs, Minneconjou, and Hunkpapa. His spelling, however does not accord well with other contemporary and previous renditions." Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN ona" [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. Dorsey in 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something white (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in any way connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 7 18:33:13 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:33:13 -0600 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] In-Reply-To: <45F117A0-734B-4461-ADC3-4C6E81950827@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > "The term Saone was used extensively on the Upper Missouri during the > period 1800-1850, when referring to the five tribes of northern > Tetons, the Minneconjous, Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Hunkpapas, and > Blackfeet Sioux." (p.87) ... "The origin and meaning of the name > Saone is not definitely known, for during the 1880's when the > missionaries were making their inquiries concerning the Teton bands, > the name had then gone out of common usage, and little reliable > information could be obtained from the Sioux regarding its meaning. > The first known use of the name was by Truteau, who recorded in his > journal that a Sioux band called "Chahony" was expected to arrive at > the Arrikara village late in the summer of 1795 for the purpose of > trade. ..." In this case - "chanony" - we are pretty clearly dealing with s^ahaN, the term for 'Sioux' in Dhegiha languages. Omaha-Ponca s^aaN' < *s^ahaN has lost the medial h, a sporadic shift in Omaha-Ponca. Another example is maNa' > *maNha 'bank'. Medial h not arising from inflecting an h-initial verb is rather rare. It isn't lost in ppahe' 'hill'. However, I'm not clear that saone is the same form as "chanony." If it is, it has lost a dot or accent to change the s to s^ (sh) or s^ (sh) has been written s for some other reason. Loss of diacritics only becomes possible with the introduction of the Riggs orthography, I think. Before that I would expect ch in French spellings and sh in English ones. > [HYDE, George E., "Red Cloud's Folk": 12-13. Norman, Okla., 1937.] It > is his conclusion that the name was given originally to the northern > Teton group by the southern Tetons, the Oglalas and Brules, and IN > SOME MANNER REFERRED "SHOOTING IN THE TREES", OR LIVING AND HUNTING > IN WOODED AREAS." (p. > 87.) This sounds like a case of confusing s^a- (sha-) written cha- in French fashion with c^haN 'wood'. I'm guessing he was trying to analyze or have analyzed [c^ha] [(h)o] [ni] based on "chahony" when the form in question was really more like [s^a][aN][ni] or [s^a][aN][i]. I don't recall seeing OP s^aaN 'Sioux' anywhere used predicatively, but I suppose OP s^aaN=i [s^a][aN][i] would be 'he (prox.) is a Sioux; they (pl.) are Sioux'. [ > Further, in "SIOUX UNTIL 1850" by Raymond J. DeMallie, in Vol.13, Part 2 > of 2, "Plains", of the Smithsonian Inst.'s "Handbook of North American > Indians" ( Gen.ed. William C. Sturtevant) (2001), ... This, of course, is actually the best place to start looking on issues like this. > The name Saone was undoubtedly a self designation, BUT THE PRECISE FORM > OF THE WORD AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE ARE NO LONGER KNOWN. I suppose part of the problem with form is whether it is sa- or s^a-, and the rest is with what follows! > Nicollet [ref.] translated the name as 'whitish people, whose robes are > always well whitened with white earth', comprised of sa [saN] 'whitish' > and a putative verb stem 'oni' 'to rub', but that etymology is not > satisfactory. This suggests sa-, at least, but the question is how and where he came upon the term. > S.R. Riggs [ref.] wrote that the nane was Sanoni-wicasa (that is saN?oni > wichasha 'Sanoni man' ) and was a nickname that the Brule and Oglala > formerly applied to the Sans Arcs, Minneconjou, and Hunkpapa. His > spelling, however does not accord well with other contemporary and > previous renditions." Again sa-; question ditto. > Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN ona" > [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. Dorsey in > 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, > curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] > whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something white > (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in any way > connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. The term may well be connected, but the etymology may be more or less spurious, too. Wouldn't the diminutive be =la in Teton? And, I think it is generally only =na in Santee after nasal vowels. Elsewhere it is =daN. If the form is =na(N) here, then we'd have to assume saNuN=na(N). I'm not sure what the diminutive is in Stoney and Assiniboine at the moment, though I think it was been explained to me fairly recently by Linda Cumberland! I think there are maybe two problems with the post 1850 etymologies of the form. One is that the individuals asked were not familiar with s^ahaN ~ s^aaN 'Sioux' as a possible explanation; the other is that they were hearing the term for the first time from the questioner, who wasn't necessarily clear on how to pronounce it. One of the things that strikes me about the available literature on Dakota divisions and band names in general, is how much of it depends on Renville and one or two others and their theories of how things were to be analyzed. Because the same views are expressed in a number of different published sources, one has the impression they were widely distributed, but on further consideration, it appears that the majority of the accounts trace back to the same group of people. And the number seven seems suspiciously frequent. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 9 18:17:32 2006 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 04:17:32 +1000 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello John, Thank you very much for that thorough & scholarly reply. Etymology (especially distinguishing the "folk" from the genuine variety) is somewhat of a quicksand, it seems! Clearly, in this case, it requires a much more profound & extensive knowledge of Siouan languages, than I possess, (or am ever likely to)! But I am afflicted with an inveterate curiosity, and can ask questions "till the cows come home", I'm afraid. In fact, I probably couched my question clumsily there : All I was wondering was, how come Dorsey would rely on a Hunkpapa (Teton) informant for the etymology of a Lower Yanktonai band-name (SaN-ona), with a Yanktonai sub-dialect diminutive (-na) [if that is what it is] . I wondered also whether that could possibly indicate some connection with the Teton term "Saone", (which, as we know, included the Hunkpapas)? But I see that I also managed to garble what Dorsey actually wrote in his posthumous paper : "SaN-ona", Shot-at-some-white-object; this name originated from killing an albino buffalo; a Hunkpapa chief said that refugees or strangers from another tribe were so called." (BAE-B 15; [1893-94]; p.218). I know that this may indeed be spurious as you say, and proves nothing, and that my query is probably unanswerable, but I just thought J.O. Dorsey's statement seemed a little odd in that place! He doesn't mention the term "Saone" at all under his section on the "TitoNwaN" in the same paper (pp.218-221). Thanks again for the information. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 08/08/2006, at 4:33 AM, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Clive Bloomfield wrote: >> > >> Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN >> ona" >> [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. >> Dorsey in >> 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, >> curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] >> whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something >> white >> (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in >> any way >> connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. > > The term may well be connected, but the etymology may be more or less > spurious, too. Wouldn't the diminutive be =la in Teton? And, I > think it > is generally only =na in Santee after nasal vowels. Elsewhere it > is =daN. > If the form is =na(N) here, then we'd have to assume saNuN=na(N). > I'm > not sure what the diminutive is in Stoney and Assiniboine at the > moment, > though I think it was been explained to me fairly recently by Linda > Cumberland! > > I think there are maybe two problems with the post 1850 etymologies > of the > form. One is that the individuals asked were not familiar with > s^ahaN ~ > s^aaN 'Sioux' as a possible explanation; the other is that they were > hearing the term for the first time from the questioner, who wasn't > necessarily clear on how to pronounce it. > > One of the things that strikes me about the available literature on > Dakota > divisions and band names in general, is how much of it depends on > Renville > and one or two others and their theories of how things were to be > analyzed. Because the same views are expressed in a number of > different > published sources, one has the impression they were widely > distributed, > but on further consideration, it appears that the majority of the > accounts > trace back to the same group of people. And the number seven seems > suspiciously frequent. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sat Aug 12 02:19:14 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:19:14 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wakánda - and the word Wakán (snake). The root of both words is "kán-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wakánda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 12 20:18:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:18:09 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *wáN:hka *wahkáN Dakotan: makhaN wakháN 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: máNkhaN wakháN 'snake' Winneb: maN:káN wakáN 'snake' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkkáN wakkáNdagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokkáN wakkáNda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhkáN wahkáNta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makkáN wakkáNtta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-dé:si 'snake' Ofo oNktéfi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wakánda - and the word Wakán (snake). The root of both words is "kán-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wakánda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. From boris at terracom.net Sat Aug 12 22:32:34 2006 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:32:34 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am curious as to why a final nasalized vowel is not reconstructed in the 'medicine' set but is in the 'sacred' set, and also if there are any cognates in Crow-Hidatsa or Mandan. Thx Alan K -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *wáN:hka *wahkáN Dakotan: makhaN wakháN 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: máNkhaN wakháN 'snake' Winneb: maN:káN wakáN 'snake' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkkáN wakkáNdagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokkáN wakkáNda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhkáN wahkáNta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makkáN wakkáNtta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-dé:si 'snake' Ofo oNktéfi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wakánda - and the word Wakán (snake). The root of both words is "kán-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wakánda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 13 16:59:22 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:59:22 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: Sorry, my slip. The final vowel of the Proto-Siouan reconstruction for 'medicine' should be nasal. Everything is the same as far as we know between the two except for nasality and probably length on the 1st syllable vowel. We have not found viable cognates in Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan for these lexemes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The state of lexicography for Mandan and Hidatsa especially still leaves a lot to be desired. Nasality would be lost in CR and HI so [w] and [m] would collapse together. Velar stops should remain, as should vowel length. Contributions from these languages would be most welcome. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan Knutson Sent: Sat 8/12/2006 5:32 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. I am curious as to why a final nasalized vowel is not reconstructed in the 'medicine' set but is in the 'sacred' set, and also if there are any cognates in Crow-Hidatsa or Mandan. Thx Alan K -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *wáN:hkaN *wahkáN Dakotan: makhaN wakháN 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: máNkhaN wakháN 'snake' Winneb: maN:káN wakáN 'snake' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkkáN wakkáNdagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokkáN wakkáNda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhkáN wahkáNta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makkáN wakkáNtta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-dé:si 'snake' Ofo oNktéfi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wakánda - and the word Wakán (snake). The root of both words is "kán-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wakánda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sat Aug 19 12:21:14 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:21:14 +0100 Subject: CSD Message-ID: Dear Bob abd David: This is wonderful! Many thanks for this - and for your public-spiritedness in sharing this. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 20 19:07:07 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:07:07 -0600 Subject: A Bit Off-Topic, but Not Too Far (Cheyenne) Message-ID: You can order a Cheyenne Dictioonary and various other items from the Chief Dull Knife College "storefront" in Lulu Books. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:50:34 -0700 From: Wayne Leman Subject: Chief Dull Knife College books - Lulu.com http://www.lulu.com/cdkc From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 21 00:27:57 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:27:57 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry I'm a little late reviewing these emails, but now that I'm settled (somewhat) in Lawrence, I want to make sure I didn't miss anything. I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *wáN:hka *wahkáN Dakotan: makhaN wakháN 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: máNkhaN wakháN 'snake' Winneb: maN:káN wakáN 'snake' Omaha: maNkkáN wakkáNda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkkáN wakkáNdagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokkáN wakkáNda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhkáN wahkáNta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makkáN wakkáNtta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-dé:si 'snake' Ofo oNktéfi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wakánda - and the word Wakán (snake). The root of both words is "kán-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wakánda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sat Aug 19 19:44:39 2006 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:44:39 -0400 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt From linguista at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 11:31:06 2006 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:31:06 -0500 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <4a5009f2db8d.44e731e7@ou.edu> Message-ID: Ivan - Welcome! I'm heading down your way in about thirty minutes, actually. I'm going to be in White Eagle for the Ponca Powwow and a few days afterward, hoping to get some fieldwork done. I'm a PhD student in Linguistics at Minnesota, myself, and am rather new at this list as well. I'm fascinated by your area of focus. I just took a course last term on language contact, and wound up writing my term paper essentially as a prospectus on contact research in modern Ojibwe and Omaha-Ponca. I am highly interested in the way the languages are absorbing either covert or overt characteristics of the majority language (English) and in how the dynamic of decreasing L1 population and increasing L2 population will affect the grammar itself in the process of revitalisation. Parallels to Hebrew revitalisation are striking, and potential outcomes have eerie political ramifications: some have called Israeli Hebrew a Hebrew-lexifier creole with Semitic morphology on a Germanic/Slavic phonological/syntactic base! How would a similar outcome be viewed in an indigenous context? Is anyone ready for this? These are some of the pressing questions in modern language contact! In terms of your questions regarding availability of resources, my answer is: highly doubtful. There are many texts and resources which mention one tribe historically having had interactions with other tribes, and some may even mention bilingualism, but I doubt that any of them took upon themselves the task of documenting this bilingualism and its effects. Serious research on language contact is very rare and very difficult to verify. Conclusions on language contact are sometimes among the least stable conclusions that can be made in linguistics. The field of language contact is truly in its infancy still today, and will welcome all the development it can get! You will be able to find some examples of loanwords at very least. Although Siouan languages have historically been resistant to loanwords, particularly from colonial languages, there are some. I can send you my bibliography for my term paper last semester as a starting point. It'll have to wait until after I find it, though, because I'm about to board a Greyhound bus! One loanword which stands out in my mind is OP "kukusi" (pig) (from French). I would suppose its analogue in Osage might be "hkohkosi" or the like. Another area of great interest are loan calques, in which the syntax of a foreign concept is borrowed and superimposed over indigenous roots. These, I suspect, are much more common than actual loans in Siouan. But they are harder to document and to prove their origins. Anyway, gotta get going. If you're going to be up around Osage/Ponca/Kaw country anytime soon, let Bob Rankin or Justin McBride know, because they have my contact information (and I believe all of us will be getting together at some point next week). - Bryan Gordon On 8/19/06, ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan > Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University > of Oklahoma. > > I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to > know if there is documentation available about language contact and the > Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century > historical period. > > For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some > also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they > also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some > colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? > > Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from > non-Siouan languages? > > Thank you. > > Ivan Ozbolt > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 21 16:05:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:05:45 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hi Ivan, The number of loans we've spotted is quite small. There's 'pig' as Bryan noted. 'Horse' is /hkawa/, Kansa /kkawaye/, Spanish caballo. 'Big, large' is /laNdhe/, Kansa, /loNye/, both earlier */gdhaNdhe/ from Spanish grande. The form with the /g/ intact is preserved in a lake name in SE Colorado. 'Firewater' for distilled spirits is probably a loan-translation or calque from Algonquian languages spoken farther east, or possibly a translation of Spanish aguardiente. Rory Larson, here on the list, has a nice MA thesis from U. of Nebr. on adapatation of modern vocabulary in Omaha that might be helpful. There is evidence of contact with Comanche, certainly, since Comanche for 'black bear' is pretty clearly borrowed from Osage /wasape/. The Quapaws had closer contact with the French and with the Mobilian Jargon. They have /skadi/ 'money' from Choctaw or Chickasaw /skali/ < Fr. escalin 'shilling'. They also have /ppikayoN/ from picayune. Do let us know if you locate others. Bob Rankin ________________________________ > For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 16:28:56 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:28:56 -0700 Subject: Osage borrowings In-Reply-To: <4a5009f2db8d.44e731e7@ou.edu> Message-ID: Hello Ivan, It's nice to hear from someone interested in Osage. There are only a few terms that I've identified as borrowings in Osage. Monkapo 'coat, overcoat' is one, obviously from French. Then there's hkawa 'horse' that is probably from Spanish 'caballo'. Likewise laaNdhe 'large, great' from Spanish 'grande'. c'á htaaN 'devil', literally 'big snake' is probably from English 'Satan'. [where c represents what may be written also as ts]. There are a couple of borrowings from Omaha-Ponca, and only one or two I've found from English: dhuhkiNki 'curly' and probably 'make curly, curl' (accent on second syllable). The dhu- is the causative 'make' or 'by hand'. There's the related form hkihkiNniN 'curly; curly or tangled hair, black (African) hair'. (accent on first syllable) I realize that the nasality seems reversed in the two 'curly' forms, but I've written them the way I heard them. I hope this is helpful. Welcome to the list. Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:45 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Language contact Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 16:34:59 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:34:59 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, yes, there's hkohkosa 'pig, shoat, hog' in Osage, likely a borrowing from French. Accent on first syllable, although accent shifts in some expressions to second syllable hkohkosa ekon 'hoggish' and hkohkosa weli 'lard, pig fat'. Carolyn Quintero _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan Gordon Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 4:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Ivan - Welcome! I'm heading down your way in about thirty minutes, actually. I'm going to be in White Eagle for the Ponca Powwow and a few days afterward, hoping to get some fieldwork done. I'm a PhD student in Linguistics at Minnesota, myself, and am rather new at this list as well. I'm fascinated by your area of focus. I just took a course last term on language contact, and wound up writing my term paper essentially as a prospectus on contact research in modern Ojibwe and Omaha-Ponca. I am highly interested in the way the languages are absorbing either covert or overt characteristics of the majority language (English) and in how the dynamic of decreasing L1 population and increasing L2 population will affect the grammar itself in the process of revitalisation. Parallels to Hebrew revitalisation are striking, and potential outcomes have eerie political ramifications: some have called Israeli Hebrew a Hebrew-lexifier creole with Semitic morphology on a Germanic/Slavic phonological/syntactic base! How would a similar outcome be viewed in an indigenous context? Is anyone ready for this? These are some of the pressing questions in modern language contact! In terms of your questions regarding availability of resources, my answer is: highly doubtful. There are many texts and resources which mention one tribe historically having had interactions with other tribes, and some may even mention bilingualism, but I doubt that any of them took upon themselves the task of documenting this bilingualism and its effects. Serious research on language contact is very rare and very difficult to verify. Conclusions on language contact are sometimes among the least stable conclusions that can be made in linguistics. The field of language contact is truly in its infancy still today, and will welcome all the development it can get! You will be able to find some examples of loanwords at very least. Although Siouan languages have historically been resistant to loanwords, particularly from colonial languages, there are some. I can send you my bibliography for my term paper last semester as a starting point. It'll have to wait until after I find it, though, because I'm about to board a Greyhound bus! One loanword which stands out in my mind is OP "kukusi" (pig) (from French). I would suppose its analogue in Osage might be "hkohkosi" or the like. Another area of great interest are loan calques, in which the syntax of a foreign concept is borrowed and superimposed over indigenous roots. These, I suspect, are much more common than actual loans in Siouan. But they are harder to document and to prove their origins. Anyway, gotta get going. If you're going to be up around Osage/Ponca/Kaw country anytime soon, let Bob Rankin or Justin McBride know, because they have my contact information (and I believe all of us will be getting together at some point next week). - Bryan Gordon On 8/19/06, HYPERLINK "mailto:ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu"ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu wrote: Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 17:04:42 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:04:42 +0100 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 17:32:56 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:32:56 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <44E9F5BA020000A600004161@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: I agree with the borrowing mentioned by Anthony of 'school'. A borrowing from Pawnee, this word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with and without aspiration in /ht/ and /hp/, and with a long vowel /aa/ and a short vowel /a/; at any rate it seems to be losing or have lost the preaspiration in ht and hp. The Pawnee form was: taapuska 'school'. As in the case of laaNdhe (grande), this borrowed form coexists with other Osage expressions for 'school'. I would like to add another that just occurred to me: ís^padhoN ADJ N var. ís^padho, íNs^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'español' - ] Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 10:05 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: re: Language contact Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 17:41:50 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:41:50 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <005e01c6c547$d7468230$0302a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: That one made it into Algonquian, too; note Miami iihpaawala~iihpaayoolwa 'Mexican, Spaniard', Ottawa eshpayoo 'Spaniard', Menominee E:spayo:w 'Spaniard', Unami spánayu 'Mexican, Spaniard', Shawnee spaani 'Mexican' and Gros Ventre ?isibéyoouh 'Mexican'. David > > ís^padhoN ADJ N var. ís^padho, íNs^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' > As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, > especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, > the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'español' - ] > > Carolyn Quintero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 17:50:47 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:50:47 +0100 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <005e01c6c547$d7468230$0302a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: Carolyn et al: John K deserves big thanks from me for searching out an impressive number of borrowings into OP. I forget whether the name of the pawnee Iruska society is connected with a similar-sounding Dhegiha society (yes, I know it's been the subject of correspondence on here before and I should consult the archives...) but that may be an example too. The Osage form for "Spanish" has parallels in Quapaw and also in Caddo /hispayun/ (I think) and in Chitimacha /hespani/. I don't know if any Osage people also spoke Comanche, but it was known to some Kiowas and Plains Apaches (and there's a Comanche loan in Karankawa of the Texas coast). This is notable because Comanche presence in the southern Plains was an 18th-century innovation, so that it wasn't a long-established language which served as a lingua franca, but a relatively new one. Caddo served as a lingua franca too. Anthony >>> "Carolyn Quintero" 08/21/06 6:32 pm >>> I agree with the borrowing mentioned by Anthony of 'school'. A borrowing from Pawnee, this word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with and without aspiration in /ht/ and /hp/, and with a long vowel /aa/ and a short vowel /a/; at any rate it seems to be losing or have lost the preaspiration in ht and hp. The Pawnee form was: taapuska 'school'. As in the case of laaNdhe (grande), this borrowed form coexists with other Osage expressions for 'school'. I would like to add another that just occurred to me: ís^padhoN ADJ N var. ís^padho, íNs^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'español' - ] Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 10:05 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: re: Language contact Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon Aug 21 19:00:07 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:00:07 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkietóopa (OS) and kki(y)adóba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppeyá(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpeyáabriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 19:11:13 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:11:13 +0100 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: Justin- I think Wichita has been mentioned in this context before as a partial source. And there's 'nine', too, which occurs in Algonquian, Muskogean and Siouan languages and which is another old favourite of the list. -Anthony >>> "Justin McBride" 08/21/06 8:00 pm >>> I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkietóopa (OS) and kki(y)adóba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppeyá(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpeyáabriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 19:33:19 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:33:19 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: None of the speakers I interviewed used hpedhábriN in OS. Only hkietóopa 'eight'. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 12:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkietóopa (OS) and kki(y)adóba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppeyá(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpeyáabriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 19:32:02 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:32:02 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: It can't be Potawatomi, since Potawatomi 'eight' is /shwadso/ (which has a clear Algonquian etymology), which doesn't look anything like /hkietóopa/ or /kki(y)adóba/. I'm not aware of any Algonquian nos. that look like those. I think you're thinking of Miami-Illinois, which (as Bob discovered 20 years ago) borrowed its word for 'eight' from Tutelo. Dave > I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a > borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that > the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular > word. The loans are hkietóopa (OS) and kki(y)adóba (KS), which vary with > the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppeyá(a)bliN in KS, and possibly > *hpeyáabriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. > > Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... > > -Justin > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 21 20:19:17 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:19:17 -0500 Subject: FW: cucumber, satan and eight. Message-ID: > It's nice to hear from someone interested in Osage. There are only a few terms that I've identified as borrowings in Osage. Monkapo 'coat, overcoat' is one, obviously from French. Wow, I missed that one for sure! I wonder if it's in Kaw also? 'Cucumber' and 'satan' are interesting cases that may involve loan blends. Proto-Siouan clearly had a term for 'gourd, squash' with the shape *hko:-. So kkokkomaN/kkokkomiN and similar terms in Siouan languages may have mixed their own reduplicated word and a French term. 'Satan' in Quapaw has the fuller form of the stative verb/adjective, /ttaNka/ rather than the truncated /htaN/ as in Osage. This means that EITHER the term doesn't come from English (or other European) 'satan' OR that Quapaws reinterpreted [taN] as /ttaNka/ 'great'. One could argue either way. I think I recorded two terms in Quapaw, /$attaNka/ and /$?attaNka/, with and without glottalization. 'Snake' is /wes?a/ and /$a/ is 'black, dark colored' in Quapaw, so the term could be interpreted as 'great snake' or 'the great dark one'. I don't know if these terms go back to pre-contact times or only to post missionary times. Osage /hkidhatopa/, Kansa /kkiadoba/, 'eight' at least has a folk interpretation in Siouan as 'two fours', where /to:pa/ is '4'. My earlier speculation was that, as Anthony or Justin pointed out, it came from Wichita. Working from memory (very dangerous for me nowadays), the Wichita word was something like /kiatawha/ or the like. David can correct me on that. Folk etymology does the rest. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 21 20:34:12 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:34:12 -0600 Subject: Language contact (Wichita numbers) In-Reply-To: <44EA1361020000A6000041A6@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Wichita numbers six, seven and eight all start with the "morpheme??" kiyah-, followed by the numbers for one, two and three respectively: (chi)7ass 'one' kiyehess 'six' wicha 'two' kiyahwicha 'seven' tawha 'three' kiyatawha 'eight' (Don't ask me to explain the vagaries of the "h"s, please.) The Siouan words cited in this exchange look like they're built on a combination of this "prefix" and the Siouan word for 'four'. If that element is borrowed in either direction, it's meaning has shifted between "five plus" and "two times". My instincts are that that's a lot of semantic change for an element in the basic counting system, but the phonetics is certainly intriguing. I'm pretty sure Bob R. worked his way through all of this a while back in a study of the numbers. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Anthony Grant wrote: > Justin- > > I think Wichita has been mentioned in this context before as a partial source. And there's 'nine', too, which occurs in Algonquian, Muskogean and Siouan languages and which is another old favourite of the list. > > -Anthony > > >>> "Justin McBride" 08/21/06 8:00 pm >>> > I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a > borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that > the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular > word. The loans are hkietóopa (OS) and kki(y)adóba (KS), which vary with > the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppeyá(a)bliN in KS, and possibly > *hpeyáabriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. > > Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... > > -Justin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Tue Aug 22 04:15:54 2006 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:15:54 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for “Monkapo” (ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero’s dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /ís^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates “Spaniard”, and his dictionary doesn’t have an entry for “French”. However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never “creolized” anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 22 14:15:04 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:15:04 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <8b8b06feb62b.44ea3eaa@ou.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported to me, without hesitation. Many of those interviewed were full bloods, and had used Osage as their primary language during earlier times. Some had been monolingual in Osage until they attended grade school where they learned English. However, by the time I began interviewing them, the language hadn't been used for some time in daily communication, probably since about the 1970s at the latest, although this is just a guess, and then only among certain older friends and family members. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for 揗onkapo?(ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero抯 dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /韘^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates 揝paniard? and his dictionary doesn抰 have an entry for 揊rench? However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never 揷reolized?anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 15:42:42 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Given history and location, we should probably look carefully at the Quapaw lexicon again too. I think it is even more likely that they absorbed some additional French and possibly Mobilian vocabulary. Glad to see /moNkapo/ thoroughly explained, as, in its Osage phonetic form, it would mean "my condom". :-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Carolyn Quintero Sent: Tue 8/22/2006 9:15 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Language contact Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported to me, without hesitation. Many of those interviewed were full bloods, and had used Osage as their primary language during earlier times. Some had been monolingual in Osage until they attended grade school where they learned English. However, by the time I began interviewing them, the language hadn't been used for some time in daily communication, probably since about the 1970s at the latest, although this is just a guess, and then only among certain older friends and family members. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for ?onkapo?(ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero? dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /?^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates ?paniard? and his dictionary doesn? have an entry for ?rench? However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never ?reolized?anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Aug 22 17:05:21 2006 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:05:21 -0700 Subject: Names for the French In-Reply-To: <000b01c6c5f5$5da14fb0$2201a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: There was a somewhat parallel development in Caddo, where the word for Frenchman is Ka:nush, which is evidently the last two syllables of Mexicanos, perhaps borrowed from Tonkawa with a regular Caddo palatalization of s after u. It seems to have started as a word for all Europeans, and then later on to be limited to the French, when Mexicans came to be called Ispayun. --Wally > Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree > that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That > is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported > to me, without hesitation. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 20:55:11 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:55:11 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: Re: Wichita /kiyatawha/ 'eight' David wrote: > The Siouan words cited in this exchange look like they're built on a combination of this "prefix" and the Siouan word for 'four'. If that element is borrowed in either direction, it's meaning has shifted between "five plus" and "two times". My instincts are that that's a lot of semantic change for an element in the basic counting system, but the phonetics is certainly intriguing. I'm pretty sure Bob R. worked his way through all of this a while back in a study of the numbers. Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. Carolyn wrote: > EIGHT. the only forms I have for 'eight' are hkietoopa (accent on -too) and its less frequent variant. hkidhetoopa (accent on dhe). (No hkidha... forms for 'eight'.) I think I'm detecting a problem, since kidha 'each' etc. (accent on either syllable) seems to occur with a plain k, rather than hk. Unless these forms are unrelated. For OS 'eight' I recorded /kkidha-/ as the first part in about 1980. Also Laflesche has "kitha" (with K-dot) from the turn of the century, and it can't be one of his "Poncaisms" because the word doesn't occur in OM or PO. I suspect the forms in /e/ are recent, although anything is possible. In that vein, there is a Kaw variant given to me by Walter Kekahbah, /kkialoba/, with a mysterious /l/. Go figure. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 21:04:47 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:04:47 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: > I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) The bottom line is "I don't know". There is much in Biloxi that is simply mysterious to me. Initial labial sonorants normally are lost. They remain in /maNki/ 'be lying' because it is tacked onto the end of other verbs as an aspect-marking enclitic. I'd be more inclined to appeal to sound symbolism with 'howl', but who knows? I don't know why the initial /m-/ would be retained in 'god', but "theophony" comes to mind, i.e., words for the deity are often phonologically anomalous. Allah is supposedly the only Arabic word with an "emphatic" L. And many Christian ministers who otherwise lack an open-O in their speech have the phoneme in "Gawd". Who knows? The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 22 21:00:17 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:00:17 -0700 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's the best guess as to where this Wichita -> Osage/Kaw borrowing would have taken place? Were they adjacent in the early contact period? Dave C > Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is > that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan > *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] > into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as > having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense > of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt > replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that > facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning > "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can > see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four > separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps > four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 22 21:21:41 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:21:41 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob wrote: > For OS 'eight' I recorded /kkidha-/ as the first part in about 1980. Also Laflesche has "kitha" (with K-dot) from the turn of the century, and it can't be one of his "Poncaisms" because the word doesn't occur in OM or PO. I suspect the forms in /e/ are recent, although anything is possible. In that vein, there is a Kaw variant given to me by Walter Kekahbah, /kkialoba/, with a mysterious /l/. Go figure. Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 23 11:04:11 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:04:11 +0100 Subject: Names for the French In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was once told by Jan Ullrich that the word for Frenchman in Lakota was was^icu-h^ca ie 'white man par excellence', which would make sense if they were the first white men the Dakotans met, others such as the British and Americans having specific names. Incidentally I know that s^agdas^a or s^aglas^a 'British/English' is said to come from les Anglais, but a Lakota lady in Standing Rock once referred to the Mets or Crees who live in Standing Rock also as s^aglas^a. She said that to her the name seemed to imply scruffy or ragged ie unlike the Lakotas, not very politically correct no doubt, but it is interesting to note how people interpret the names which they use. Bruuce--- Wallace Chafe wrote: > There was a somewhat parallel development in Caddo, > where the word for > Frenchman is Ka:nush, which is evidently the last > two syllables of > Mexicanos, perhaps borrowed from Tonkawa with a > regular Caddo > palatalization of s after u. It seems to have > started as a word for all > Europeans, and then later on to be limited to the > French, when Mexicans > came to be called Ispayun. > --Wally > > > Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for > is^padhoN, I agree > > that it is surprising that it is used for people > of French origin. That > > is what the last speakers I worked with in the > 1980s and 1990s reported > > to me, without hesitation. > > ___________________________________________________________ Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 15:17:37 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:17:37 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: In the early historical period the Caddoan-speaking tribes tended to occupy the north-south band of territory in the central plains immediately to the west of the Siouan-speaking tribes. While distribution of the term suggests borrowing before a definitive Kansa/Osage split, this can't be guaranteed and the term could have been borrowed or adapted twice. If the folk-analysis of /kki(y)ado:ba/ turned out to be accurate, i.e., if 'eight' was somehow "remodeled" on the basis of finger counting on two hands, then maybe the Wichita term was nothing more than a stimulus, if even that. I find it very suspicious that the Wichita and KS/OS terms are so similar, but beyond that it's just very hard to say. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Tue 8/22/2006 4:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage 'eight' What's the best guess as to where this Wichita -> Osage/Kaw borrowing would have taken place? Were they adjacent in the early contact period? Dave C > Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is > that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan > *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] > into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as > having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense > of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt > replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that > facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning > "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can > see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four > separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps > four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 15:09:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:09:05 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 16:13:25 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:13:25 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 18:04:27 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 19:18:36 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:18:36 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 23 20:13:13 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:13:13 -0700 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been trying to think of an Osage cognate but come up empty-handed. Osage doesn't have lopa*, lipa*, lupa* at all, nor versions with hl- or xl-, that I can find. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 20:36:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:36:09 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: Quapaw has /bdo'ka/ 'round, circular; whole, entire', as expected. No *kdopa or *kdoba. So *bdhoka would be the older form. You can check and see if it's in the CSD MS -- I think Chiwere has something like /broge/, which would be the proper cognate. With that accentual pattern it probably has a long vowel = bro:ge. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 2:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 23 20:56:22 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:56:22 -0600 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with > > Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole > > thing'? > > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. OP has bdhu'ga ~ gdhu'ba. I believe the latter is a minority alternate form involving metathesis. Compare also xdhabe' ~ xa'bdhe (not xabdhe', I think) 'tree'. My impression is that speakers respond to both alternates in each case and don't deprecate either form, but use only one themselves, perhaps as a matter of family lect. I don't think there is any consistency in pattern, e.g., I seem to recall that my first consultant said bdhu'ga (not sure) but xa'bdhe (sure). I assume that the second alternative in each case was originally a faux pas resulting from the difficulty of the clusters. It's possible some sort of humor was also originally involved in these transpositions or modifications, to judge from such English patterns as "automagically," though I have no evidence for a humorous reading here. We did have something like that in the case of changing terms for 'St. Louis'. Another OP form that has a modification of a C+dh cluster is gdhebaN 'ten', now universal for original gdhebdhaN. The latter is actually attested in the 1820s and matches, e.g., Osage lebraN or Dakotan (wi)kc^emna < PS *kyepraN. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 23 21:12:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:12:06 -0600 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of > another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word > for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not > much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I > don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Ah, nice one, Rory! I'm not sure what the etymology is here, or which form is original. This reminds me that I've seen some somewhat similar things in Dakotan. For example, some of the gm-words seem to be modifications of bl- or gl-words. I don't recall the specific examples. Anyway, the sources of gm are otherwise obscure to me. I also seem to recall some oddities reported by Shaw or Carter in their discussions of reduplications. Anyway, speech errors and/or playing with sounds for effect definitely occurs in Siouan languages as often as elsewhere. Incredibly munged forms in fast speech also occur. I can think of a few examples of those which cost me many hours of anguished analysis. It's just harder to see such things and deal with them, accepting them for what they are, when one is struggling hard with the basics. If the goal is discovering an underlying perfect form and regular rules for diverging from it, it seems unfair that the speakers should produce arbitrary or accidental alternate forms with unselfconscious or even deliberate abandon. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 21:11:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:11:05 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') Message-ID: Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the metathesis. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 3:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with > > Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole > > thing'? > > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. OP has bdhu'ga ~ gdhu'ba. I believe the latter is a minority alternate form involving metathesis. Compare also xdhabe' ~ xa'bdhe (not xabdhe', I think) 'tree'. My impression is that speakers respond to both alternates in each case and don't deprecate either form, but use only one themselves, perhaps as a matter of family lect. I don't think there is any consistency in pattern, e.g., I seem to recall that my first consultant said bdhu'ga (not sure) but xa'bdhe (sure). I assume that the second alternative in each case was originally a faux pas resulting from the difficulty of the clusters. It's possible some sort of humor was also originally involved in these transpositions or modifications, to judge from such English patterns as "automagically," though I have no evidence for a humorous reading here. We did have something like that in the case of changing terms for 'St. Louis'. Another OP form that has a modification of a C+dh cluster is gdhebaN 'ten', now universal for original gdhebdhaN. The latter is actually attested in the 1820s and matches, e.g., Osage lebraN or Dakotan (wi)kc^emna < PS *kyepraN. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 22:07:17 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:07:17 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the metathesis. Bob That thought occurred to me too. Maybe Kathy or Tom could weigh in here? Re Dorsey 1890, I can say that gdhu'ba does not occur in the first 10 stories, but that bdhu'ga does. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 23 23:55:40 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:55:40 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. > Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. But it seems I'm coming up with far more questions than answers, as usual, so I'll stop here! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) The bottom line is "I don't know". There is much in Biloxi that is simply mysterious to me. Initial labial sonorants normally are lost. They remain in /maNki/ 'be lying' because it is tacked onto the end of other verbs as an aspect-marking enclitic. I'd be more inclined to appeal to sound symbolism with 'howl', but who knows? I don't know why the initial /m-/ would be retained in 'god', but "theophony" comes to mind, i.e., words for the deity are often phonologically anomalous. Allah is supposedly the only Arabic word with an "emphatic" L. And many Christian ministers who otherwise lack an open-O in their speech have the phoneme in "Gawd". Who knows? The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. Bob --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu Aug 24 02:54:17 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:54:17 EDT Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com writes: > Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with > another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' > with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the > word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or > doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is > 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was > borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put > in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = > 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. Perhaps the Biloxi word is borrowed from the Chickasaw or Choctaw word for 'tea', but it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 09:42:31 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:42:31 +0100 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory: For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 08/23/06 8:18 pm >>> >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 24 15:38:30 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:38:30 -0500 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: <44ED8297020000A600004700@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: > For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Thanks, Anthony! That makes sense. La Flesche 1932 has the same word. It's very nice to see that it is attested at such an early date! Can you tell us anything about the historical context of these sources, and the date of that "very early Osage publication"? That would be very interesting! I think we could probably reconstruct the 'book' sequence as follows: Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' 19th century Osage wagre'se, 'striped thing', 'book' 19th century Omaha waba'greze, 'thing striped by pushing/writing', 'paper with writing', 'book' 20th century Omaha wabra'gase, 'book' (after metathesis) 20th century Omaha wagra'base, 'book' (after metathesis) Dorsey and Fletcher & La Flesche both have the waba'greze term. The Stabler-Swetland dictionary (1970s) has both the the wabra'gase and wagra'base terms for both 'book' and 'paper'. It also includes about three compounds that use waba'greze, though these may be coming from Fletcher & La Flesche. I believe our elder speaker today has come down firmly in favor of wagra'base, at least for 'book'. Dorsey records a different term for 'book' from Ponka: waba'g^u. This would mean 'a thing written', based on bag^u', 'to write'. It looks like the Omaha term may be based on the Osage term, but loosely, at a time when the word was more descriptive than nominal. Ponka took a different route, but used the same term for 'write' as the Omaha. La Flesche (1932) does not seem to record a word for 'write' from Osage. The Dakota forms for 'write' (Williamson) are entirely different. The term must have come into Omaha at least by their Bellevue period (~1845-1855), when they were living next to a major wagon train terminus and their children were being educated by missionaries. Perhaps it came in earlier, even as early as the late 18th century, as a reference to traders' ledger books. It would be interesting to know the Iowa-Oto term(s), as the latter share with the Omaha a lot of acculturation terms that probably came in during the Bellevue period. The Kaw term would also be nice to know. In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 16:19:52 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:19:52 +0100 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory et al: The book is: Wa fa fe wa gry sy Laekens wa kaxa peo, where is sh/zh. Publisghed 1837 in Stockbridge, KS by the Shawanoe Mission Press set up by Rev. Jotham Meeker, this book was put together by Johnston Lykins. I got a lot of help for this (which is discussed in an article in the memorial volume for Frank Siebert) from people who are on this list, so to Jimm, Bob R, John K, Carolyn, and Dave C, once more: wibdhahaN, and indeed p'ilamayaN. Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 08/24/06 4:38 pm >>> > For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Thanks, Anthony! That makes sense. La Flesche 1932 has the same word. It's very nice to see that it is attested at such an early date! Can you tell us anything about the historical context of these sources, and the date of that "very early Osage publication"? That would be very interesting! I think we could probably reconstruct the 'book' sequence as follows: Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' 19th century Osage wagre'se, 'striped thing', 'book' 19th century Omaha waba'greze, 'thing striped by pushing/writing', 'paper with writing', 'book' 20th century Omaha wabra'gase, 'book' (after metathesis) 20th century Omaha wagra'base, 'book' (after metathesis) Dorsey and Fletcher & La Flesche both have the waba'greze term. The Stabler-Swetland dictionary (1970s) has both the the wabra'gase and wagra'base terms for both 'book' and 'paper'. It also includes about three compounds that use waba'greze, though these may be coming from Fletcher & La Flesche. I believe our elder speaker today has come down firmly in favor of wagra'base, at least for 'book'. Dorsey records a different term for 'book' from Ponka: waba'g^u. This would mean 'a thing written', based on bag^u', 'to write'. It looks like the Omaha term may be based on the Osage term, but loosely, at a time when the word was more descriptive than nominal. Ponka took a different route, but used the same term for 'write' as the Omaha. La Flesche (1932) does not seem to record a word for 'write' from Osage. The Dakota forms for 'write' (Williamson) are entirely different. The term must have come into Omaha at least by their Bellevue period (~1845-1855), when they were living next to a major wagon train terminus and their children were being educated by missionaries. Perhaps it came in earlier, even as early as the late 18th century, as a reference to traders' ledger books. It would be interesting to know the Iowa-Oto term(s), as the latter share with the Omaha a lot of acculturation terms that probably came in during the Bellevue period. The Kaw term would also be nice to know. In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 24 18:18:31 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although I'm not sure why t would change to d). But 'tixi' meaning 'sacred (medicinal/curing) root' sounds very convincing and plausible to me, even more than the 'tea' interpretation! Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com writes: Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. Perhaps the Biloxi word is borrowed from the Chickasaw or Choctaw word for 'tea', but it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. Blair --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 24 19:27:51 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:51 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although I'm not sure why t would change to d). But 'tixi' meaning 'sacred (medicinal/curing) root' sounds very convincing and plausible to me, even more than the 'tea' interpretation! Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 24 21:43:28 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. -- correction Message-ID: Sorry, make that reconstruction *hu:te with an accented 1st syllable. I was going by the reanalyzed Dhegiha form. In the CSD we suggested that the Catawba form cited by Blair suggests a compound of *hu:re 'stem' and 'root'. Bob ________________________________ > Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 25 15:07:21 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: '07 SxLangLingConf Message-ID: In Billings this past June, Saskatchewan, Canada and Norman, OK was offered as locations for next year's Conference. Has there been any further thoughts on it. jgt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 11:29:53 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:29:53 +0100 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <002901c6c858$87f9f360$b40d133f@JIMM> Message-ID: I am personally very much in favour of Saskatoon. As I come a long way, I like to see as much of the New World as possible. Also they speak Dakota and Cree there, which are within my realm of interest Bruce ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From pustetrm at yahoo.com Sat Aug 26 13:42:58 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:42:58 -0700 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <20060826112953.10828.qmail@web26810.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Howdy from the canyons :-))))), Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: I am personally very much in favour of Saskatoon. As I come a long way, I like to see as much of the New World as possible. Also they speak Dakota and Cree there, which are within my realm of interest Bruce ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 26 23:46:05 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:46:05 -0600 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <20060826134258.97164.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously > yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out > the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Gilmore (1919/1977), Useds of Plants by teh Indians of the Missouri River Region, p. 35, says "wipazuka". Buechel gives wi'pazukaN and wi'pazokaN. Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and shadblow come to mind. The OP form (from Gilmore) is "zhoN h.uda," i.e., z^aN(aN)' xu(u)'de. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 00:43:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:43:09 -0600 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Bob Rankin & Rory M Larson wrote: > Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, > but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the > metathesis. Bob > > That thought occurred to me too. Maybe Kathy or Tom could weigh in here? > > Re Dorsey 1890, I can say that gdhu'ba does not occur in the first 10 > stories, but that bdhu'ga does. I wonder about that, too. For example, it seems that gdhe'baN 'ten' is now universal for earlier gdhe'bdhaN, attested in Say's vocabulary from before 1823. But was gdhebaN a variant at that time? Was it restricted to Ponca? Or to particular villages or families? I looked in Dorsey's texts, and gdhu'ba appears 90:197.19, 648.4, 648.5. These examples are attributed to S^aN'geska 'White Horse', a member of the Omaha Wolf Clan - I'm not sure which one this is! - who is described as understanding Kaw as well as Omaha. He is noted as a member of the chief's party, or a conservative. In 199.4, 199.18 the same man produces bdhu'ga. It also appears 90:335.18, 337.4, 337.8, 338.3, 338.7, 338.17, 339.5, 345.11, 345.14, 347.12, 403.14, 406.8, 411.18, 412.3, 412.10, 412.11, 468.9 (all attributed to AN'phaNttaNga, or John Big Elk, who would have to be a member of We'z^iNs^te 'Willful; Angry' know usually as the Elk Clan). He is noted a member of the citizen's party, or a progressive. JBE produces bdhu'ga 338.12, 349.17. Also 504.5 (Waz^i'[*g]a Gahi'ga 'Bird Chief', a member of the Waz^iN'ga=dhatt=a'z^i 'They Do Not Touch Birds' or Bird division of Dha'ttada 'Lefthand Side', described as an old man whose letter is a good specimen of the oratorical style. He is writing to a Ponca man. In 504.7 504.9 he produces bdhu'ga. These are exhaustive citations of gdhu'ba, but not of forms produced by the three speakers in question. It appears that speakers favor one form or the other - many other consultants clearly use bdhu'ga only - but, if they use gdhu'ba they still use bdhu'ga in varying proportions. Note that these texts date to the 1870s. It's possible that cases of bdhu'ga in a text by a person also using gdhu'ba are due to editorial correction or error. The editor might be Dorsey or it might be one of his consulting editors, e.g., Francis LaFlesche and George Miller, or it might also be due to one of his translators, e.g., ??? Sanssouci (Saunsoci in modern spellling). Another possibility is that there is nuanced difference of meaning between bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba, and some speakers prefer one nuance over the other, though in this case it seems likely that gdhu'ba would occur more widely. I couldn't find any cases of xabdhe instead of xdhabe' for 'tree'. Only xdhabe' is found. No instances of wabdha'gase or wagdha'base per se, but waba'gdheze 'book; writing; letter' does occur, upwards of 100 times. I assume the etymology is something like 'made striped or, as the case may be, spotted by pushing'. I think ba- is also used in cases where pushing per se is not really evidenced, but the tool used is oblong. I don't see any cases of wabdha'geze or waga'bdheze, etc. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:14:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:14:11 -0600 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: Lakota has a modest number of examples of gm-clusters - relying here only the words starting with gm, and not looking further. This would seem to imply a Proto-Mississippi Valley cluster *kw followed by a nasal vowel. There are also a few cases of gw, implying *kw. The problem with this implication is that corresponding forms seem not to occur. The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally widespread forms. The 'squash' form has some resemblants in Algonquian, but I am personally of the opinion that it does not originate there. (There, now I can never go to an Algonquian meeting!) As it happens, there may be a connection between the two roots, since some cucurbits, especially young ones and some cats (especially young ones) have a sort of stripey pattern on them, the sort of coincidence that interests human immensely. I swear that somewhere I saw a reference to a Mississippian artefact - a pot or a figurine - that specifically combined a cat and squash vines, but I have never been able to rediscover it. I tend to suspect that most gm and gw in Dakotan arise from sound-symbolic alternations, e.g., gwegwes 'striped, with the ribs showing', gweza 'lean, thin, ragged' cf. gle'za 'striped', gwahaN 'bad, overripe, spoiled' (presumably haN is a continuative) cf. -mnaN 'smell bad' (and OP bdhaN 'smell bad') < *praN gwu 'curdled' may suggest something of a phonaestheme gw for 'in bad condition' This is an area where it might be risky for me to venture further, with so many knowledgeable Dakotanists available! Offhand, I don't recall any discussions of this in the Dakotanist literature. It's something I noticed in the course of the CSD project, when I started looking for correspondences based on matches for particular clusters or stops, etc. My pioneer case of this was looking for matches of Dakotan #h- and OP, etc. #th-. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:26:55 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:26:55 -0600 Subject: PMV *(wa)the 'skirt' Message-ID: Mentioning matches of Dakotan #h- and OP #th- reminded me of one of my favorite lost causes. OP has wathe' 'dress' < *wathe, which has good cognates elsewhere in Siouan, but not in Dakotan. This was also one of the first words in which th was noticed to contrast with tt, as it was obvious different from Watte' 'the Elkhorn River'. A few possible matches in Dakotan: hepi'ya 'the side or flank of a hill' hepi'yela 'on the grade of a hill' Here I assume he < *the, + =pi PLURAL/NOMINALIZER + -A THEME-VOWEL. The y between pi and A is epenthetic. The -(y)A ablauts as in s^ahiya ~ s^ahiye=la, etc. I assume the figure involved is 'the skirt(s) or skirting' of the hill = 'the slope or grade', cf. also English 'outskirts'. wahe'=c^e=tu 'about ~ wahe'=c^e=l 'about that time' wahe'=haN 'betimes, in good time' wahe'=haN=l 'about at that time' I assume this means 'skirting' (or 'wrapping') the occasion, cf., English 'to skirt the issue'. Just a couple of outre ideas - a comparativist or at least non-Dakotanist approach to Dakotan etymology, if you will. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:38:42 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:38:42 -0600 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' I should have read this first - I'm a bit behind on my Siouan. Rory and Anthony have already worked this one out. > In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, > that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century > Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. It turns out to be a bit older than that, but unless it is connected in a generic way with the Dakotan tendency to alternate bl ~ gw for sound symbolic reasons, it probably is a uniquely Omaha(-Ponca?) thing. If it is sound symbolism, then my tendency to suppose bdhuga => gdhuba by metathesis may be a bit off. If it was originally bdhuga ~ gwuga (or gdhuga?) then gwuga or gdhuga => gdhuba may be a dissimilation. I assume that *gwuga or *gdhuga would be an emphatic or vivid or 'bad, coarse' variant of bdhuga. Sort of 'the whole bunch' or 'every censored one of them' instead of just 'all'. I tend to expect that gthuga would be more likely in Omaha phonology than gwuga, but, of course, this is entirely hypothetical and unattested. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 27 01:44:56 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:44:56 -0500 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz wrote: > Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very > difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and > shadblow come to mind. Also shad-bush, -blossom, -tree, Indian pear, wild pear, sugar plum, poire, May bush, May cherry, mespilus (former genus-name). These from OED and Mathews Dict. of Americanisms. Amelanchier has a lot of spp., so I don't know what the Linnaean referents of these common names are. If you're not familiar with the USDA Plants Database, check it out: http://plants.usda.gov/ Pictures, range-maps, taxonomy, etc. Search by Linnaean or common name. Saskatoon < Cree misaaskwatoomin 'saskatoon berry' < misaaskwat 'saskatoon bush', lit. 'that which is solid wood' (Random House Dict., ed. 2, presumably Ives Goddard). This form is [at least] Plains Cree. I'm not sure about mis- as 'solid'; it might be 'big', but neither makes sense for June berry. (But the Ojibway name means lit. 'heavy wood'.) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:59:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:59:06 -0600 Subject: Noun Stem Tangent (Re: 'snake' and 'god' terms.) In-Reply-To: <20060824181831.91733.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, David Kaufman wrote: > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and > udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), > which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although > I'm not sure why t would change to d). Me either, which is why I feel pretty confident in suggesting this: I tend to suspect that these forms involve -(d)i in which -(d)i is the stem-forming vowel, and -d- is *-r- epenthetically inserted between it and tu- or u-. The gloss here for udi is 'stalk or trunk of a plant' and it is cognate with PS *hu 'stem, stalk, long bone', cf. OP hi 'stem, stalk', wahi 'bone'. So, the form is probably u-d-i < *hu-r-e. I'm sorry I'm such a Johnny-One-Note on this -(d)i thing (cf. also the Dakotan cognate -(y)A in 'slope of a hill' and 'Cheyenne' earlier today). It's actually the Richard-One-Note thing, since the idea, at least in regard to Biloxi is Dick Carter's. Languages like Biloxi or Mandan where this final vowel formant sticks around after vowel-final stems and conditions an epenthetic glide are very helpful, since there is strong tendency in Siouan for this formant to be lost after vowel-final stems. The formant does remain widely after consonant final stems, producing the famous intricacies of Dakotan s^uNka ~ -s^uNke ~ s^unk or siNte' ~ siNl and the sometimes nightmarish complexities in reconstructing the final vowel of CVC(V) a stems. And then there are the languages - well, just Winnebago - where the glide-vowel becomes a morpheme in its own right. I think this explains Winnebago =ra 'the' and perhaps also a more obscure =re that I don't fully understand. I think it might mark object nominalizations or object relativizations, but I'm not sure. Or maybe it's a ghost. But I'm pretty sure about =ra < *-r-a. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 02:04:43 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:04:43 -0600 Subject: Noun Stem Tangent (RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' > I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas > (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in > Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is > ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts > for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. I really should read ahead more. This works, but it does require one to fiddle the expected *uti. If it is *hute, then the stem (I would argue) is *hut-e. No epehtnetic *r needed after a consonant. Anyway, I do suspect that *hut-e appears in tudi 'base', since 'base, bottom, stump' is the expected gloss for *hut-e. But why t? Maybe from *hta-hute 'it's base'? From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:08:08 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:08:08 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice work, John!! That certainly shows that the gdhu'ba variant was present in the 19th century after all! > Another possibility is that there is nuanced difference of meaning between > bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba, and some speakers prefer one nuance over the other, > though in this case it seems likely that gdhu'ba would occur more widely. I like this possibility best. I recall that a couple of years ago, some of Vida's speakers in Macy got together and produced an Omaha translation of 'Silent Night'. It was a full verse translation; it rhymed and went along with the music very nicely. Mark and I were struck by the fact that the same stanza used two different words for 'all': bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba. I have the strong impression that our speakers recognize a semantic difference between them, though we've never really pinned it down. My own sense, purely off the top of my head here, is that bdhu'ga is used for 'all' as a collective plural for animate/individuated entities, while gdhu'ba is 'all' as the totality of a mass noun. I'll try to test that next time I get together with a speaker. Meanwhile, maybe we could check the semantic context of the many references you've given. > No instances of wabdha'gase or wagdha'base per se, but > waba'gdheze 'book; writing; letter' does occur, upwards of 100 times. So those forms are probably early 20th century. > I assume the etymology is something like 'made striped or, > as the case may be, spotted by pushing'. Spotted? Wouldn't that be gdhe'z^e? I'm assuming that gdhe'ze, 'striped', refers to the lines of writing. > I think ba- is also used in cases where pushing > per se is not really evidenced, but the tool used is oblong. Besides 'pushing', ba- seems to be used regularly for both 'sewing' and 'writing'. 'Drawing' takes a different instrumental prefix: bag^u', 'write', vs. dhig^u', 'draw'. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:11:51 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:11:51 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I looked in Dorsey's texts, and gdhu'ba appears 90:197.19, 648.4, 648.5. These examples are attributed to S^aN'geska 'White Horse', a member of the Omaha Wolf Clan - I'm not sure which one this is! - who is described as understanding Kaw as well as Omaha. He is noted as a member of the chief's party, or a conservative. In 199.4, 199.18 the same man produces bdhu'ga. ZhiNtheho John, ShoNgeska is identified as Ellis Blackbird, age 50 years, with wife #1 PoNcasoN and wife #2 NoNzeiNze in Alice Fletcher's 1882 Land Allotment Register, p. 14. He is pictured in F&LaF The Omaha Tribe pp. 171-175. They report that the MoNthiNkagaxe (Earth Makers) did not have subclans, but had "groups" associated with certain rites. One was the "wolf" or mikasi group. Uthixide mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:57:15 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:57:15 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Lakota has a modest number of examples of gm-clusters - relying here only > the words starting with gm, and not looking further. This would seem to > imply a Proto-Mississippi Valley cluster *kw followed by a nasal vowel. > There are also a few cases of gw, implying *kw. The problem with this > implication is that corresponding forms seem not to occur. > > The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' > 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, > and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally > widespread forms. Couldn't this cluster be reconstructed as *kyw, a combination velar stop, fronting of the tongue, and pursing of the lips, all roughly simultaneous? I think French recognizes a semivowel consisting of the latter two phonotactic factors, basically the consonantal form of u-umlaut, as in /lui/. By this model, Dakotan would have lost the tongue fronting (*kyw -> *kw); Dhegihan would have lost lip-pursing, or had it absorbed into following [uN] (*kyw -> *ky -> *kr); and Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago would have cancelled *k and *y by fronting *k as a palatalized stop (*kyw -> *c^w), progressing to c^Vw in Winnebago and dw in Ioway-Otoe. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 17:03:27 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:03:27 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: > The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally widespread forms. The 'squash' form has some resemblants in Algonquian, but I am personally of the opinion that it does not originate there. I believe the similarities between the Siouan and Algonquian 'squash' terms show too many matching phonemes to be coincidence, especially given their geographic distribution. Since the Algon. is reconstructible and the Siouan is not, I'd assume the progression went from Siouan to Algonquian. Algonquian: eemehkwaan- Siouan prototype: wi- kwuN (where *wuN often dissimilates to either waN or dhuN, and where we don't know the status of vowel length in the Siouan forms because it hasn't been recorded.) At any rate, I gave John credit for the discovery before he changed his mind, and further discussion appears in: Rankin, Robert L. 2006. Siouan Tribal Contacts and Dispersions Evidenced in the Terminology for Maize and Other Cultigens. Histories of Maize: Multidisciplinary Approaches to the Prehistory, Biogeography, Domestication, and Evolution of Maize. In John E. Staller, Robert H. Tykot, Bruce F. Benz, eds. The Histories of Maize II: Part I: North America and Northern Mexico, Chapter 44, pp. 564-578. San Diego, N.Y.: Elsevier. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 27 17:16:09 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:16:09 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: >>From Siouan to Algonquian? Do you mean the other way around, or am I misunderstanding you? This looks like a typical old loan from Algonquian to Siouan. A small thing to keep in mind is that this */e:mehkwa:na/ etymon means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it except Miami. (And in Menominee when used as a final.) I realize the obvious link is the use of gourds as spoons, but if the borrowing was especially old, either Siouan borrowed it from Miami, or Siouan changed its semantics when it borrowed the term. Dave Costa > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:03:27 -0500 > To: > Subject: RE: Dakotan gw/gm > > I believe the similarities between the Siouan and Algonquian 'squash' terms > show too many matching phonemes to be coincidence, especially given their > geographic distribution. Since the Algon. is reconstructible and the Siouan > is not, I'd assume the progression went from Siouan to Algonquian. > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 17:51:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:51:43 -0500 Subject: PMV *(wa)the 'skirt' Message-ID: To which add: Lakota: nité-hepi 'woman's skirt; the kind that stands out from the hip (|nité|)' (from Eli James) Dakota: heyake 'dress' Willamson-54a Yankton: hayake 'dress' Wm-54a > OP has wathe' 'dress' < *wathe, which has good cognates elsewhere in Siouan, but not in Dakotan. This was also one of the first words in which th was noticed to contrast with tt, as it was obvious different from Watte' 'the Elkhorn River'. A few possible matches in Dakotan: hepi'ya 'the side or flank of a hill' hepi'yela 'on the grade of a hill' Here I assume he < *the, + =pi PLURAL/NOMINALIZER + -A THEME-VOWEL. The y between pi and A is epenthetic. The -(y)A ablauts as in s^ahiya ~ s^ahiye=la, etc. I assume the figure involved is 'the skirt(s) or skirting' of the hill = 'the slope or grade', cf. also English 'outskirts'. wahe'=c^e=tu 'about ~ wahe'=c^e=l 'about that time' wahe'=haN 'betimes, in good time' wahe'=haN=l 'about at that time' From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 18:28:06 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: If I said "from Siouan to Algon." it was a stupid mistake. It should be the other way around, of course (and that was John's original conclusion in about 1986 when he did a Plains Conference paper on 'gourd/squash', 'bow' and a couple of other terms.) The squash term can mean 'dipper' in at least some Dhegiha too, as it probably can in most of the languages. So either way, the semantic correspondence is as good as the sound correspondences. Dhegiha borrows the squash term from some more southerly source and shares its term with Choctaw and Chickasaw 'corn' (derived from the general cultivar term compounded with *aci 'to grow' in Muskogean), Biloxi 'grass' and Yuchi 'gourd'. This is all discussed in the article. Bob ________________________________ >>From Siouan to Algonquian? Do you mean the other way around, or am I misunderstanding you? This looks like a typical old loan from Algonquian to Siouan. A small thing to keep in mind is that this */e:mehkwa:na/ etymon means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it except Miami. (And in Menominee when used as a final.) I realize the obvious link is the use of gourds as spoons, but if the borrowing was especially old, either Siouan borrowed it from Miami, or Siouan changed its semantics when it borrowed the term. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 19:24:13 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:24:13 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could we try to put our assumptions on the table regarding the direction of loan words? If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian as *eemehkwaan-. Siouan, on the other hand, does not reconstruct so easily, though similarities are apparent with each other and with the Algonquian term. Model 1. The term originates in proto-Algonquian and is adopted variously by different Siouan daughter languages, which means that the term will not be consistent within Siouan. Model 2. The term originates from wherever as an international term and spreads variously to different languages in eastern North America. Siouan is already differentiated into its daughter languages; Algonquian is not. Thus, proto-Algonquian, proto-Dakotan, proto-Dhegihan, proto-Chiwere, etc., might be contemporaries, each adopting a technical term that comes from one of the Siouan daughter languages or, perhaps more likely, Muskogean or some other southeastern language. Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than proto-Algonquian, and that the spread of the term between the two language groups takes place after the divergence of proto-Siouan. The proper level of comparison for internal consistency would be the Siouan daughter branches with each other and Algonquian, not all of Siouan with Algonquian. To choose what language group the term originated from, we should probably look for corresponding verb roots that really make solid sense for deriving the noun (not fanciful constructions that might have been chosen to chime with a foreign term). In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 27 20:04:58 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Could we try to put our assumptions on the table regarding the direction of > loan words? If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the > word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every Algonquian language except Miami. > as *eemehkwaan-. Very likely *eemehkwaana. Animate gender. > Siouan, on the other hand, does not reconstruct so easily, though similarities > are apparent with each other and with the Algonquian term. > Model 1. The term originates in proto-Algonquian and is adopted variously by > different Siouan daughter languages, which means that the term will not be > consistent within Siouan. Coming from a position of being mostly ignorant about Siouan, that seems most likely to me, esp. since it seems to match the results of some other apparent Algonquian -> Siouan loans. > Model 2. The term originates from wherever as an international term and > spreads variously to different languages in eastern North America. Siouan is > already differentiated into its daughter languages; Algonquian is not. Thus, > proto-Algonquian, proto-Dakotan, proto-Dhegihan, proto-Chiwere, etc., might be > contemporaries, each adopting a technical term that comes from one of the > Siouan daughter languages or, perhaps more likely, Muskogean or some other > southeastern language. The problem is with this scenario is that Algonquian is a few thousand years old, and since this word reconstructs very cleanly in Algonquian (and is present in every corner of the family), Occam's razor would lean heavily toward saying it was present in Proto-Algonquian, or, at the very least, a VERY OLD loan in Algonquian (almost the same thing). By the time this word was present in Proto-Algonquian, Proto-Siouan obviously hadn't split off into its daughter languages yet, either. If this etymon was present in some Siouan language that far back, that's almost equivalent to saying this word was present in Proto-Siouan. And if I understand Bob correctly, this word will not reconstruct in Proto-Siouan. Right? BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) > Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than > proto-Algonquian, You lost me here. Why would your first model suggest that? > and that the spread of the term between the two language groups takes place > after the divergence of proto-Siouan. It would help to know whether Proto-Algonquian was older than Proto-Siouan or vice versa, but offhand I couldn't offer an answer to that. > The proper level of comparison for internal consistency would be the Siouan > daughter branches with each other and Algonquian, not all of Siouan with > Algonquian. > > To choose what language group the term originated from, we should probably > look for corresponding verb roots that really make solid sense for deriving > the noun (not fanciful constructions that might have been chosen to chime with > a foreign term). Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this noun. > In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term > passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Well, if the word is not reconstructible within Siouan, and if it has a limited distribution within Siouan, that's a big hint that it's not that old within Siouan. And nothing argues against it being old within Algonquian. If the word was borrowed in Algonquian and old in Siouan, you'd expect it to (a) reconstruct cleanly in Siouan and (b) to not reconstruct well in Algonquian, and (c) to be missing from big swathes of Algonquian. The latter phenomena are not seen. If I understand Bob and John correctly, the Algonquian loans into Siouan are usually concentrated in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Chiwere -- that is, the languages with the closest proximity to Algonquian. If this word is likewise missing from, say, Tutelo, Biloxi, and Crow/Hidatsa, there'd be no way to explain that if this word was present in Proto-Siouan. But if it's a loan in Siouan, we'd expect that distribution. David C -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 27 21:00:15 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:00:15 -0500 Subject: A FINAL UNDERSTANDING: WAKANDA & WAKAN (Thunders & Snakes) Message-ID: Blank Appreciating all the input from everyone, as each added more illumination of the entities involved. Then, a look into the oral literature of the IOM and HO (Winnebago), revealed the ancient relationship of two holy beings -- the Thunderers and the Water Spirits. Each balancing the other as the former arrives from the Heavens and the latter arrives from within the earth. [NOTE: Wakánda = God. (It may be noted the similarity of the word - Wakánda – and the words Makán (medicine) and Wakán (snake). The shared root of the words is " kán " (holy; sacred; consecrated; mysterios). The term Wakánda is from: " wa- (something, someone, the actor of the action, making the noun from the verb), -kán-(state of being ' -kán-'; -da (a locative, to be located in a place (a hill, a river, the sky). Wakanda (is) someone or something so ancient and beyond comprehension that is locatable in a direction, or in a place". (LMF). The traditional oral literature tells that: The symbolic representations are actually clear and strong in the oral literature, as the Thunder Beings and the Water Spirits belong to the oldest level of oral traditions. It is the opposition between two divine beings in the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria social structure, the "Chéxita" (Thunderers) and their arch-enemies, the Water Spirit, called "Ishéxi" (Horned Water Panthers). Among the Hochank (Winnebago) there is a Wakandja (Thunderbird Clan) which is the largest and most important of all their clans, and so was the lead of the Sky Clans. There is also a Wakdjexi (Water Spirit Clan} who seem to lead the Earth Clans. That the latter is a clan is interesting in the fact that the Water Spirits are considered by both the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria and Hochank (Winnebago) to be a continual enemy of humans and the Thunderers. They are considered to be capable of good or evil, so they are to be feared. At the same time, they may be gallant and are capable of confering great blessings on man.. The two entities reflect the opposing balance between the Heavens and Earth, a dualism that is reflected throughout the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria and Hochank clans, kinship, society, spirituality and in the utilitarian arts and crafts of the people. (JGT) (PR). I believe this new information puts into perspective the relationship of words that share the root "-kan" (sacred, consecrated, mysterious). jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blank Bkgrd.gif Type: image/gif Size: 145 bytes Desc: not available URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 27 22:07:41 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:07:41 EDT Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: Just to matters a bit more complicated, the Catawba word for 'gourd' is w'a:de:. If the Catawba word is related to the (Mississippi Valley) Siouan words - perhaps through a root *wa(:)t(w)-, it suggests that the earlier form was *watwuN rather than *wakwuN and that Ioway-Otoe and Winnibago are conservative while Dakotan and Dhegiha have velarized the initial member of the cluster (either in assimilation to the following *w or by contamination with the Algonquian word (?)). (There are plenty of cases of sporadic voicing of earlier /t/ to /d/ in Catawba.) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:26:28 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:26:28 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:15:54 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:15:54 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: The term and its sound correspondences are regular and reconstructible in Algonquian. The sound correspondences are not regular in Siouan, the term only occurs in a small, geographically restricted group of Siouan languages. It contains phonological sequences that are generally inadmissible within Siouan. > In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:30:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: The problem is that we have very little understanding of Siouan/Catawban cluster phonology. You're positing a pre-Catawban form on the basis of a borrowing that only occurs in 3 Siouan languages, and the vowels don't come close to matching. Right now, I'd assume Catawba is simply unrelated. But who knows? B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Sun 8/27/2006 5:07 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dakotan gw/gm Just to matters a bit more complicated, the Catawba word for 'gourd' is w'a:de:. If the Catawba word is related to the (Mississippi Valley) Siouan words - perhaps through a root *wa(:)t(w)-, it suggests that the earlier form was *watwuN rather than *wakwuN and that Ioway-Otoe and Winnibago are conservative while Dakotan and Dhegiha have velarized the initial member of the cluster (either in assimilation to the following *w or by contamination with the Algonquian word (?)). (There are plenty of cases of sporadic voicing of earlier /t/ to /d/ in Catawba.) Blair From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Aug 28 13:48:51 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:48:51 -0700 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There we go. Thanks, John. I had only asked my speakers so far, but since they're more like into King Soopers blueberries they didn't know the word. Regina Koontz John E wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously > yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out > the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Gilmore (1919/1977), Useds of Plants by teh Indians of the Missouri River Region, p. 35, says "wipazuka". Buechel gives wi'pazukaN and wi'pazokaN. Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and shadblow come to mind. The OP form (from Gilmore) is "zhoN h.uda," i.e., z^aN(aN)' xu(u)'de. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 28 20:07:57 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:07:57 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave! >> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the >> word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian > > No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac > to Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. > The only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the > Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, > and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every > Algonquian language except Miami. Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning found only in Miami? > > Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than >> proto-Algonquian, > > You lost me here. Why would your first model suggest that? I'm sorry, I knew I was being a little sloppy when I phrased it that way. My point was that Siouan definitely needs to be differentiated into distinct daughter languages at the time the term spreads in Siouan, else the term would reconstruct cleanly in Siouan. That restriction would not be on Algonquian, since the term does reconstruct there. Hence, we could imagine the term spreading from (unitary) proto-Algonquian to several different Siouan languages, which would imply that proto-Siouan was older. Of course, it would also be possible for the term to be present universally in Algonquian long before it ever spread to Siouan. In this model (say, Model 1b), proto-Algonquian could be as old or older than proto-Siouan. This picture is a little awkward for me though, because it seems to imply that Algonquians were engaged in an important bit of technology (either spoons or squashes) for a long period of time before other Indians became sufficiently aware of that technology to need a word for it. Model 1b is certainly possible, but it raises interesting questions about the historical distribution and modes of social and economic interaction of all parties concerned. Model 2 (non-Algonquian source) and Model 1a (proto-Algonquian to Siouan daughter languages) allow the term to spread as an international term as soon as any group makes the technological innovation and coins the word, which seems more obvious to me with regard to the mechanics of an innovation spreading. You make the argument that, since the term reconstructs in proto-Algonquian but not in proto-Siouan, the term must be old in Algonquian but recent in Siouan. This is true, but 'old' and 'recent' are relative until we can pin down just how old these respective groups are. Thus, if Algonquian is 2000 years old and Siouan is 3000 years old, and if squashes or spoons came into fashion in the first millennium AD, then the international word for them might have spread through Algonquian in a form that could be reconstructed to proto-Algonquian, while the various Siouan languages that adopted it might have been sufficiently distinct by that time that their respective adoptions would clearly clash. In this version, 'old' in Algonquian and 'recent' in Siouan might be contemporary in absolute time. That being said, I have to agree that Bob's reply to your query: > > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All > > over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? > > Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. > Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. pretty well makes the case for Model 1b here. I had the mistaken impression that the terms under discussion were widespread in Siouan, and that they were consistent within each daughter group. I'm certainly not going to suggest now that proto-Algonquian is more recent than proto-Dakotan! I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups that presumably did not grow squashes? Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their Algonquian neighbors? Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? > Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this noun. So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. That was a good discussion, Dave. Thanks for the information! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Aug 28 20:13:08 2006 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:08 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It occurs with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand nagmu - to twist of its own accord yugmu - to twist smth in the hand wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 28 21:42:24 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:42:24 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for >>> 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian >>> >> No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to >> Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The >> only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the >> Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, >> and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. >> > Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Cheyenne, yes, don't happen to know about Blackfoot offhand. >> Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every >> Algonquian language except Miami. >> > Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean > 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning > found only in Miami? > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. > I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term > originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in > Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally > 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups > that presumably did not grow squashes? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. As for the Siouans who borrowed the term, they could have either borrowed it from Miami directly, or, just as plausibly, borrowed it from someone else but made the same semantic shift in the word when they borrowed it. > Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their > Algonquian neighbors? I have absolutely no idea. > Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the > word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was a new concept. >> Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally >> reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That >> might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps >> it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this >> noun. >> > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would have been geographically that far back. Dave From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 01:22:50 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:22:50 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: It could be. Alternatively, the 'twisted' meaning could be derived from 'squash'. The reason I wonder about this is because there is a common Siouan term, something like *wriN, and it occurs in numerous languages and subgroups. GmuN, as far as I know, has this meaning only in Dakotan. Gm just isn't an ordinary Siouan cluster with a clear source. So far it seems to come from a nasalized [kw] cluster, which doesn't occur in native etyma, or, assuming JEK is onto something with his sound symbolism argument -- which seems reasonable -- then that might be a second source. But as far as I know, there is no proto-Siouan source for gm. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan F. Ullrich Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 3:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It occurs with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand nagmu - to twist of its own accord yugmu - to twist smth in the hand wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 01:32:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:32:45 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 4:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: squash >>> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for >>> 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian >>> >> No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to >> Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The >> only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the >> Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, >> and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. >> > Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Cheyenne, yes, don't happen to know about Blackfoot offhand. >> Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every >> Algonquian language except Miami. >> > Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean > 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning > found only in Miami? > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. > I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term > originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in > Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally > 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups > that presumably did not grow squashes? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. As for the Siouans who borrowed the term, they could have either borrowed it from Miami directly, or, just as plausibly, borrowed it from someone else but made the same semantic shift in the word when they borrowed it. > Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their > Algonquian neighbors? I have absolutely no idea. > Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the > word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was a new concept. >> Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally >> reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That >> might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps >> it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this >> noun. >> > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would have been geographically that far back. Dave From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 29 02:34:37 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:34:37 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from > silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the > archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Perhaps -- but it raises the vexing issue of why every known Algonquian language but one -- upwards of twenty languages that I could name -- all made the same semantic shift. I have no problem thinking that this word already meant 'spoon, especially made of a gourd' by the Proto-Algonquian level. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 03:33:36 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:33:36 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has > it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. > > However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it > appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? What does the wi:n part mean here? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept > that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. > I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most > common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to > make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. >>From the historical perspective, that would be simplest, because it would relieve us of the need to tie Proto-Algonquian to squashes. The latter, if I recall correctly off the top of my head, are supposed to have been widely adopted as cultigens in eastern temperate North America about the middle or later part of the first millennium AD (somebody correct me if I'm wildly off here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if the 'squash' meaning is primary. >>From the pragmatic semantic perspective, however, it seems much simpler to jump from 'squash' to 'spoon' than from 'spoon' to 'squash'. To extend the meaning of a natural item to apply to a technical implement made from it is sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems shakier. If we didn't have to worry about squash cultivation being too recent, I think the simplest explanation for the pattern you have described would be that proto-Algonquians cultivated squashes and used them for spoons. The squash term was immediately extended to include the 'spoon' implement. Later, they spread widely, especially into northern lands where squashes could not be grown. They substituted other materials for making spoons, but kept the 'squash' term to designate the functional implement. At this stage, the Algonquians still spoke nearly the same language and were still talking to one another all across their territory. The universal 'spoon' meaning became primary, and suppressed the original 'squash' meaning even where squashes were still grown. In most dialects where squashes were topics of conversation, other terms were coined to designate 'squash', but in a few such as Miami and Menominee the original meaning was retained, at least in fossil constructions. In the Siouan languages I've looked at, the terms for 'spoon' are all over the map. Many are semantic extensions or compound constructions meaning either "buffalo horn" or "mussel shell". That is, the implement term is apparently based on a prior natural object term, not the other way around. > It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be > reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to > Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was > a new concept. I wouldn't expect to find a genuine Proto-Siouan word for 'squash', because I think that Proto-Siouan is considerably older than the widespread adoption of squash cultivation. However, the Dorsey-Swanton dictionaries of Biloxi and Ofo give /taN/ for 'pumpkin' or 'squash' in Biloxi, and /o^Ntha^N/ for 'pumpkin' in Ofo. In Osage and Omaha, the term is something like /wat(H)aN'/ (not sure about aspiration here). So we do seem to have a basic agreement between Biloxi and Ofo in Southeastern, and Dhegihan in MVS. I don't know how much farther these /t(H)aN/ terms extend. On a quick dictionary scan, I couldn't find any evidence of them in Dakotan. I wouldn't be surprised if they were borrowed into Dhegihan after it had diverged from other MVS languages. > > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. > > True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would > have been geographically that far back. It would be about as deep as Algonquian itself is, or deeper. But exactly how deep that is in years, and the geographical and chronological constraints placed on Algonquian by the technology indicated by the term, is the big question here. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 03:50:26 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:50:26 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. > Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. Thanks, Bob! Are gourds actually grown/used even by people in the sub-arctic? And do we have any handle on how far back in time would they have been used? Is there any reflex of *ko:re in Dhegihan? That ought to come out as *gu:dhe in Omaha, right? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 29 04:12:45 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:12:45 -0700 Subject: squashes and spoons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has >> it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. >> >> However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it >> appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. >> > By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? > So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? > No, what I mean is that Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is only found as part of derived nouns, with roots or 'initials' preceding it. In other words, Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is not an independent word. Menominee /E:meskwan/ 'spoon', however, is an independent word. (Incidentally, that /sk/~/hk/ correspondence within the 2 Menominee forms is irregular and unexplained.) > What does the wi:n part mean here? > Not sure what the /wi:n-/ part means; the primary meaning of Menominee /wi:n-/ as an initial (a root) is 'dirty', which doesn't seem to apply here. >> It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept >> that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. >> I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most >> common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to >> make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. >> > From the historical perspective, that would be simplest, because it would > relieve us of the need to tie Proto-Algonquian to squashes. The latter, if I > recall correctly off the top of my head, are supposed to have been widely > adopted as cultigens in eastern temperate North America about the middle or > later part of the first millennium AD (somebody correct me if I'm wildly off > here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if > the 'squash' meaning is primary. > Not really. That's too recent for Proto-Algonquian. I usually hear figures of 2,500-3,000 years BP for Proto-Algonquian, and most reconstructions have the language either in Canada or close to it. > From the pragmatic semantic perspective, however, it seems much simpler to > jump from 'squash' to 'spoon' than from 'spoon' to 'squash'. To extend the > meaning of a natural item to apply to a technical implement made from it is > sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems > shakier. > Not positive I agree, but I think that's trumped by two things; (a) like I said it's a tad troubling (to me, at least) that 20+ Algonquian languages all made the squash -> spoon shift, and only one (and a half) kept the old meaning; and two, as you point out, there's the problem that it's far from clear that the Proto-Algonquians would have known about gourds. Proto- Algonquians were probably too far north (certainly further north than Proto-Siouans) and way too early to know about gourds, but they would of course known about spoons. If the word meant 'spoon' originally, all one has to posit is that ONE language (two if you count the Menominee final) shifted the word for 'spoon' to the plant with which they made spoons, which doesn't strike ME as terribly implausible. To me the archaelogy takes precedence over a semantic shift that's thought to be implausible yet which only really took place in Miami and, partly, in Menominee. And the supposed implausibility of a shift of 'spoon' -> 'squash' is the most solid evidence I've seen so far for arguing that this word meant 'squash' at the PA level. > If we didn't have to worry about squash cultivation being too recent, > But we do. That's the problem. > I think the simplest explanation for the pattern you have described would be > that proto-Algonquians cultivated squashes and used them for spoons. > Why is that simpler than assuming that the Proto-Algonquians lived too far north for gourds but made spoons out of other things anyway? > The squash term was immediately extended to include the 'spoon' implement. > Later, they spread widely, especially into northern lands where squashes could > not be grown. > Except there's no reason to think Proto-Algonquians started out in a place where squashes could be grown. The northwest Plains is one place that's mentioned (Montana, around there), another is Ontario. > They substituted other materials for making spoons, but kept the 'squash' term > to designate the functional implement. At this stage, the Algonquians still > spoke nearly the same language and were still talking to one another all > across their territory. > Welll..... except there's not a lot of evidence to think that state of affairs ever obtained. It looks a lot more plausible that PA emerged from the Plateau region onto the northern Plains and essentially moved east, dropping languages as it went. There's no particular reason to think that, say, the Proto-Arapahoans and Proto-Eastern Algonquians were ever in contact. > The universal 'spoon' meaning became primary, and suppressed the original > 'squash' meaning even where squashes were still grown. In most dialects where > squashes were topics of conversation, other terms were coined to designate > 'squash', but in a few such as Miami and Menominee the original meaning was > retained, at least in fossil constructions. > But I don't think the time depth and geography will make this work. Or at least, they make this a MORE complex solution than just reconstructing it as 'spoon'. Which to my mind removes the motivation not to do so. > In the Siouan languages I've looked at, the terms for 'spoon' are all over the > map. Many are semantic extensions or compound constructions meaning either > "buffalo horn" or "mussel shell". That is, the implement term is apparently > based on a prior natural object term, not the other way around. > Well, as an anecdotal example from Illinois (a Miami dialect), the animate noun /eehsa/ means 'mussel', but its inanimate equivalent means 'spoon made of a shell'. (But that's not the normal Miami word for 'spoon'.) >> It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be >> reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to >> Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was >> a new concept. >> > I wouldn't expect to find a genuine Proto-Siouan word for 'squash', because I > think that Proto-Siouan is considerably older than the widespread adoption of > squash cultivation. > And Proto-Algonquian is probably at least as old. (And considerably further from the area where they'd know about gourds.) >>> So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, >>> whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. >>> >> True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would >> have been geographically that far back. >> > It would be about as deep as Algonquian itself is, or deeper. But exactly how > deep that is in years, and the geographical and chronological constraints > placed on Algonquian by the technology indicated by the term, is the big > question here. > Does anyone have a guess for the time-depth of Proto-Siouan? Dave From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 04:18:31 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:18:31 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from > > silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the > > archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. > Perhaps -- but it raises the vexing issue of why every known Algonquian > language but one -- upwards of twenty languages that I could name -- all > made the same semantic shift. I have no problem thinking that this word > already meant 'spoon, especially made of a gourd' by the Proto-Algonquian > level. That shouldn't be a problem if the shift takes place about the time of the divergence of Proto-Algonquian. The original meaning would have been 'gourd', but probably had the extended meaning of 'spoon' as well within the proto-language. Then the Algonquian people spread widely, allowing for dialects, but with a lot of residual flux and intercommunication. In the "koine" form of the language, the term became restricted to 'spoon', but in some marginal pockets, dialects retained the conservative meaning of 'gourd'. Miami and Menominee would have developed from such backwater dialects, while most other languages would have patterned their usage on that of the koine. And of course, if gourd use goes back much farther than squash cultivation, that removes the worry about having to time this event as recently as the mid first millennium AD. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 29 08:09:47 2006 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:09:47 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: <001f01c6cade$6142b530$0401a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: Shouldn't these - different from wagmu - be nasalized in Lakota: pagmuN -> pagmuNpi (skein of yarn; anything twisted/rolled up by pressure, e.g. with the hand nagmuN - to twist itself (i.e. by inner force) as crisp/curled bark/leather etc. yugmuN - to twist with the hand, e.g. a string, tobacco (to roll a cigarette?) I think that nasalization in Lakota is not so stable, isn't it? Alfred Am 28.08.2006 um 22:13 schrieb Jan F. Ullrich: > Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It > occurs > with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : > > pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand > nagmu - to twist of its own accord > yugmu - to twist smth in the hand > > > wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . > > Jan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 29 08:41:44 2006 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:41:44 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's no question that (the plant) 'squash' was before (the tool) 'spoon' (used as kind of cutlery). After people 1) having gotten familiar with that plant and 2) at some time using it as a tool (i.e. 'spoon'), it is quite 'natural' (most likely) that they had named the tool after the plant. IMVHO, it is very unlikely, though, that people not familiar with that plant but using spoon-like tools produced from other materials (say, bones, wood or what have you) will adopt a foreign word ('squash') for this tool after they had gotten familiar with that plant that had provided its name for it in another culture, or even - still not knowing the plant - just take the foreign word 'spoon' as a loan. Alfred Am 28.08.2006 um 23:42 schrieb David Costa: > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and > simply kept > that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, > pumpkin'. > I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the > most > common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami > used to > make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 29 19:47:20 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:47:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Cheyenne dictionary online Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Leman" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:54 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Cheyenne dictionary online >I now have the Cheyenne dictionary online: > > http://www11.asphost4free.com/cheyennedictionary/default.htm > > Comments are welcome. > > Wayne > ----- > Wayne Leman > Cheyenne website: http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:03:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:03:43 -0500 Subject: Attn Rory Message-ID: We were looking thru the Dorsey Kaw materials here in Kaw City this afternoon and I ran across a file slip from between 1882 and 1890 for Kaw labeled "gluba" 'all, whole'. Dorsey compared it to Omaha gdhuba. I had asked Mrs. Rowe about it but she didn't recognize it. Apparently somebody in the Kaw Nation did a century ago though. Since that time Kansa has simplified the gl clusters. B. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:10:30 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:10:30 -0500 Subject: squashes and spoons Message-ID: > Does anyone have a guess for the time-depth of Proto-Siouan? Hollow and Parks' glottochronology points to between 3000 and 4000 years not counting Catawba. Ted Grimm's was in that ballpark. But at this point I'd refer you to my article in the volume on the history of maize that I reffed. the other day in a note. It's about all these cultigens, time depth and contact. I don't have time to recapitulate any more of it here, but comments would be welcome. I used "vegeochronogy" and arrived at analogous dates. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:03:39 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: For a long time it was thought gourds originated in Meso America, but more recent discoveries place them in much of N. America as well. I don't know about the sub-arctic, but I wouldn't say proto-Algonquian was really sub-arctic. In any event anything that can be used as an implement was pretty widely traded. At the very least, gourds go back 4K years with squashes and pumpkins (which ARE from Central America) somewhat more recent. Incorporated and compounded constructions do tend to maintain conservative semantics, while their independent counterparts often undergo more semantic change. One of the standard examples is found in Benveniste's discussion of Indo-European terms for 'family', 'clan' and 'tribe'. The cognate sets in the different subgroups often vary quite a lot in meaning, but if you look at the compound terms for the patriarch who presided over each of the societal divisions, the meanings are much more uniform, and presumably represent the original meanings of the nouns. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 10:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. > Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. Thanks, Bob! Are gourds actually grown/used even by people in the sub-arctic? And do we have any handle on how far back in time would they have been used? Is there any reflex of *ko:re in Dhegihan? That ought to come out as *gu:dhe in Omaha, right? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:20:39 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:20:39 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: > Shouldn't these - different from wagmu - be nasalized in Lakota: > I think that nasalization in Lakota is not so stable, isn't it? Following a nasal consonant there doesn't seem to be contrast between oral and nasal vowels in Lakota and most other Siouan languages. In Omaha and Ponca there are recent m's and n's from W and R, but Kathy Shea has gotten vowel nasalization even in these cases. So, you're right, not so stable. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:15:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:15:35 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: Yes, when something innovative comes along the term can spread like wildfire. The 'firewater' compound for distilled spirits is a useful example. It's recent, but it's extremely widespread in both Algonquian and Siouan. There's probably no need to point to neologisms in European languages. B. > Miami and Menominee would have developed from such backwater dialects, while most other languages would have patterned their usage on that of the koine. And of course, if gourd use goes back much farther than squash cultivation, that removes the worry about having to time this event as recently as the mid first millennium AD. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 30 01:22:14 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:22:14 -0500 Subject: squashes and spoons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, > > By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? > > So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? > > No, what I mean is that Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is only found as part of > derived nouns, with roots or 'initials' preceding it. In other words, > Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is not an independent word. Menominee /E:meskwan/ > 'spoon', however, is an independent word. Does that contradict what I said? Independent or not, aren't /wi:n-/ and /-E:mEhkwan/ separate morphemes in combination, with the latter acting as the "head" noun of the compound? > Not sure what the /wi:n-/ part means; the primary meaning of Menominee > /wi:n-/ as an initial (a root) is 'dirty', which doesn't seem to apply here. Could it have meant 'dirty gourd', as the plant on the ground, in contrast with a (clean) gourd, a spoon? >> here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if >> the 'squash' meaning is primary. > > Not really. That's too recent for Proto-Algonquian. I usually hear figures > of 2,500-3,000 years BP for Proto-Algonquian, and most reconstructions have > the language either in Canada or close to it. Exactly my problem with squashes! > > sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems > > shakier. > > Not positive I agree, but I think that's trumped by two things; (a) like I > said it's a tad troubling (to me, at least) that 20+ Algonquian languages > all made the squash -> spoon shift, and only one (and a half) kept the old > meaning; and two, as you point out, there's the problem that it's far from > clear that the Proto-Algonquians would have known about gourds. Proto- > Algonquians were probably too far north (certainly further north than > Proto-Siouans) and way too early to know about gourds, but they would of > course known about spoons. If the word meant 'spoon' originally, all one has > to posit is that ONE language (two if you count the Menominee final) shifted > the word for 'spoon' to the plant with which they made spoons, which doesn't > strike ME as terribly implausible. Fair enough. But for the moment, I'd like to keep on the table my proposal that the base word was 'gourd' and the derived form was 'spoon', both used at the same time within the proto-language. As the language spread, the 'spoon' meaning became exclusive in most, but not all, of the resulting dialects. I think this model would fit comfortably with 20+ languages using the 'spoon' form and only 2 showing evidence of the 'gourd' form, while still letting the 'gourd' meaning be primary. But if we restrict our picture of where the proto-language was and how it spread, as you do below, we might have to reject this model. > Except there's no reason to think Proto-Algonquians started out in a place > where squashes could be grown. The northwest Plains is one place that's > mentioned (Montana, around there), another is Ontario. ... > Welll..... except there's not a lot of evidence to think that state of > affairs ever obtained. It looks a lot more plausible that PA emerged from > the Plateau region onto the northern Plains and essentially moved east, > dropping languages as it went. There's no particular reason to think that, > say, the Proto-Arapahoans and Proto-Eastern Algonquians were ever in > contact. Great! This is looking like a big picture model we could work with! So to restate and elaborate the model(s) you are thinking from: Proto-Algonquian was located in the Plateau region, roughly the northern Rockies around western Montana about 1000 BC. From here, it moved onto the northern Plains along roughly the border between the U.S. and Canada, and headed west to the Great Lakes. Along the way, several groups branched off and stayed on the Plains: the Blackfoot; the Arapaho; and the Cheyenne. The group that made it to the Great Lakes was Proto-Eastern Algonquian. That one then spread widely around the Great Lakes area, north into the eastern Canadian subarctic, east to the Atlantic coast, and south into much of the deciduous forest and prairie of the northeastern and central U.S. By this model, there are two problem with the 'gourd' -> 'spoon' theory. 1. Could gourds have been used so far north as the Plateau homeland that early? 2. Even if gourds were used in the Plateau region by 1000 BC, the dual-meaning/dialect/koine hypothesis that I proposed clashes with the tree implicit in this model. Conservative dialects ought to be the ones closer to the homeland, such as Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne; the koine ought to be spoken by the ones who carried the movement farthest, the Eastern Algonquians. But the two examples we have of languages using the word with the 'squash' meaning, Miami and Menominee, are both Eastern Algonquians. Since they have travelled far and are not genetically particularly close to the center of the tree, their special usage must be derived as compared with all the other Algonquians which are in agreement. Is that a fair statement of your position? I realize I'm simplifying and adding a few details that you didn't actually state. I think one of the arguments for the Plateau theory of Algonquian origin is that there are some other languages that are thought to be related to Algonquian in that region. Also that Blackfoot is thought to be the most divergent Algonquian language, with Cheyenne and Arapaho next most divergent, both from each other and from all the others, which are lumped as Eastern. Is this correct? You also mention Ontario as another possibility for the homeland. That seems to be roughly equivalent to saying northwestern Great Lakes, and if it is Proto-Algonquian rather than Proto-Eastern Algonquian we are talking about here, that would change the model entirely. In that case, Algonquian would have been starting out not far from where we later find the Menominee. Then Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne could have been particular offshoots of the koine which separately moved west onto the Plains, and their distinction would be due to early and continued isolation rather than to diverging as dialects before Menominee and Miami. That would leave the dual-meaning/dialect/koine hypothesis as a possibility, provided gourds work for that region in time. Do we have any good arguments for Ontario/Great Lakes as a homeland? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 30 01:56:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:56:57 -0500 Subject: Attn Rory Message-ID: Well, Dorsey has quite a bit of variability recorded in his Kaw and Osage notes. It's possible globa and loba could have existed side by side just as glo and lo both meaning 'thunder' occur in his dictionary MS. I also noticed typing my notebooks today that kki(y)ado'ba, as given to me by Mrs. Rowe, would have 3rd syllable accent -- something that shouldn't be possible. So maybe it's two phonological words: kia and doba. Numerals are prone to have this pattern if you write the compound ones as single words. Numbers in the teens, etc. have 3rd or 4th syll. accent if you write them alimi'xci, alinoNba', aliya'abliN, etc. ________________________________ From: Rory M Larson [mailto:rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Tue 8/29/2006 6:10 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Attn Rory Cool! Thanks for sharing that! Of course, that probably wouldn't have anything to do with the original -loba suffix that started the thread, since that would have been before the simplification, right? Rory Inactive hide details for "Rankin, Robert L" "Rankin, Robert L" "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/29/2006 05:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Attn Rory We were looking thru the Dorsey Kaw materials here in Kaw City this afternoon and I ran across a file slip from between 1882 and 1890 for Kaw labeled "gluba" 'all, whole'. Dorsey compared it to Omaha gdhuba. I had asked Mrs. Rowe about it but she didn't recognize it. Apparently somebody in the Kaw Nation did a century ago though. Since that time Kansa has simplified the gl clusters. B. [attachment "winmail.dat" deleted by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: graycol.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pic21298.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1255 bytes Desc: pic21298.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: ecblank.gif URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Aug 6 07:26:41 2006 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:26:41 +1000 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] Message-ID: Hello folks, For what it is worth, in an article entitled: "An Investigation of the early bands of the Saone group of Teton Sioux", written by "HARRY ANDERSON, St. Albans, N.Y. (Communicated by John C. Ewers)", in the JOURNAL OF THE WASHINGTON ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, Vol. 46, No. 3, [pp.87-94], dated March 1956, he had the following to say, inter alia, on this topic, which may be of interest to people here : "The term Saone was used extensively on the Upper Missouri during the period 1800-1850, when referring to the five tribes of northern Tetons, the Minneconjous, Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Hunkpapas, and Blackfeet Sioux." (p.87)......."The origin and meaning of the name Saone is not definitely known, for during the 1880's when the missionaries were making their inquiries concerning the Teton bands, the name had then gone out of common usage, and little reliable information could be obtained from the Sioux regarding its meaning. The first known use of the name was by Truteau, who recorded in his journal that a Sioux band called "Chahony" was expected to arrive at the Arrikara village late in the summer of 1795 for the purpose of trade. The best study to date on Saone origins, based upon the available sources, can be found in Hyde's history of the Oglalas. [HYDE, George E., "Red Cloud's Folk": 12-13. Norman, Okla., 1937.] It is his conclusion that the name was given originally to the northern Teton group by the southern Tetons, the Oglalas and Brules, and IN SOME MANNER REFERRED "SHOOTING IN THE TREES", OR LIVING AND HUNTING IN WOODED AREAS." (p. 87.) [ See also 1) the : "History of the expedition under the command of Lewis & Clark", edited by Elliott Coues, 1: 101. NY, 1893.; 2): "Journal of Jean Baptiste Truteau among the Arikara Indians in 1795", South Dakota hist. Coll. 7: 473.] Further, in "SIOUX UNTIL 1850" by Raymond J. DeMallie, in Vol.13, Part 2 of 2, "Plains", of the Smithsonian Inst.'s "Handbook of North American Indians" ( Gen.ed. William C. Sturtevant) (2001), writes thus ( on p. 757) : "SAONE The Saone, the fourth major Teton tribe in the early nineteenth century, by the mid nineteenth century had broken up into four separate tribes - Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Blackfeet, and Hunkpapa. Two other groups that were probably Saone but were no longer recognized in the twentieth century were the His Bad heart and Wanonwaktenihan. The Minneconjou were also sometimes treated as a Saone band.[refs.] The name Saone was undoubtedly a self designation, BUT THE PRECISE FORM OF THE WORD AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE ARE NO LONGER KNOWN. Nicollet [ref.] translated the name as 'whitish people, whose robes are always well whitened with white earth', comprised of sa [saN] 'whitish' and a putative verb stem 'oni' 'to rub', but that etymology is not satisfactory. S.R. Riggs [ref.] wrote that the nane was Sanoni-wicasa (that is saN?oni wichasha 'Sanoni man' ) and was a nickname that the Brule and Oglala formerly applied to the Sans Arcs, Minneconjou, and Hunkpapa. His spelling, however does not accord well with other contemporary and previous renditions." Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN ona" [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. Dorsey in 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something white (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in any way connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Aug 7 18:33:13 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:33:13 -0600 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] In-Reply-To: <45F117A0-734B-4461-ADC3-4C6E81950827@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > "The term Saone was used extensively on the Upper Missouri during the > period 1800-1850, when referring to the five tribes of northern > Tetons, the Minneconjous, Sans Arcs, Two Kettles, Hunkpapas, and > Blackfeet Sioux." (p.87) ... "The origin and meaning of the name > Saone is not definitely known, for during the 1880's when the > missionaries were making their inquiries concerning the Teton bands, > the name had then gone out of common usage, and little reliable > information could be obtained from the Sioux regarding its meaning. > The first known use of the name was by Truteau, who recorded in his > journal that a Sioux band called "Chahony" was expected to arrive at > the Arrikara village late in the summer of 1795 for the purpose of > trade. ..." In this case - "chanony" - we are pretty clearly dealing with s^ahaN, the term for 'Sioux' in Dhegiha languages. Omaha-Ponca s^aaN' < *s^ahaN has lost the medial h, a sporadic shift in Omaha-Ponca. Another example is maNa' > *maNha 'bank'. Medial h not arising from inflecting an h-initial verb is rather rare. It isn't lost in ppahe' 'hill'. However, I'm not clear that saone is the same form as "chanony." If it is, it has lost a dot or accent to change the s to s^ (sh) or s^ (sh) has been written s for some other reason. Loss of diacritics only becomes possible with the introduction of the Riggs orthography, I think. Before that I would expect ch in French spellings and sh in English ones. > [HYDE, George E., "Red Cloud's Folk": 12-13. Norman, Okla., 1937.] It > is his conclusion that the name was given originally to the northern > Teton group by the southern Tetons, the Oglalas and Brules, and IN > SOME MANNER REFERRED "SHOOTING IN THE TREES", OR LIVING AND HUNTING > IN WOODED AREAS." (p. > 87.) This sounds like a case of confusing s^a- (sha-) written cha- in French fashion with c^haN 'wood'. I'm guessing he was trying to analyze or have analyzed [c^ha] [(h)o] [ni] based on "chahony" when the form in question was really more like [s^a][aN][ni] or [s^a][aN][i]. I don't recall seeing OP s^aaN 'Sioux' anywhere used predicatively, but I suppose OP s^aaN=i [s^a][aN][i] would be 'he (prox.) is a Sioux; they (pl.) are Sioux'. [ > Further, in "SIOUX UNTIL 1850" by Raymond J. DeMallie, in Vol.13, Part 2 > of 2, "Plains", of the Smithsonian Inst.'s "Handbook of North American > Indians" ( Gen.ed. William C. Sturtevant) (2001), ... This, of course, is actually the best place to start looking on issues like this. > The name Saone was undoubtedly a self designation, BUT THE PRECISE FORM > OF THE WORD AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE ARE NO LONGER KNOWN. I suppose part of the problem with form is whether it is sa- or s^a-, and the rest is with what follows! > Nicollet [ref.] translated the name as 'whitish people, whose robes are > always well whitened with white earth', comprised of sa [saN] 'whitish' > and a putative verb stem 'oni' 'to rub', but that etymology is not > satisfactory. This suggests sa-, at least, but the question is how and where he came upon the term. > S.R. Riggs [ref.] wrote that the nane was Sanoni-wicasa (that is saN?oni > wichasha 'Sanoni man' ) and was a nickname that the Brule and Oglala > formerly applied to the Sans Arcs, Minneconjou, and Hunkpapa. His > spelling, however does not accord well with other contemporary and > previous renditions." Again sa-; question ditto. > Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN ona" > [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. Dorsey in > 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, > curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] > whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something white > (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in any way > connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. The term may well be connected, but the etymology may be more or less spurious, too. Wouldn't the diminutive be =la in Teton? And, I think it is generally only =na in Santee after nasal vowels. Elsewhere it is =daN. If the form is =na(N) here, then we'd have to assume saNuN=na(N). I'm not sure what the diminutive is in Stoney and Assiniboine at the moment, though I think it was been explained to me fairly recently by Linda Cumberland! I think there are maybe two problems with the post 1850 etymologies of the form. One is that the individuals asked were not familiar with s^ahaN ~ s^aaN 'Sioux' as a possible explanation; the other is that they were hearing the term for the first time from the questioner, who wasn't necessarily clear on how to pronounce it. One of the things that strikes me about the available literature on Dakota divisions and band names in general, is how much of it depends on Renville and one or two others and their theories of how things were to be analyzed. Because the same views are expressed in a number of different published sources, one has the impression they were widely distributed, but on further consideration, it appears that the majority of the accounts trace back to the same group of people. And the number seven seems suspiciously frequent. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 9 18:17:32 2006 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 04:17:32 +1000 Subject: "Saone" [Mar 1956] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello John, Thank you very much for that thorough & scholarly reply. Etymology (especially distinguishing the "folk" from the genuine variety) is somewhat of a quicksand, it seems! Clearly, in this case, it requires a much more profound & extensive knowledge of Siouan languages, than I possess, (or am ever likely to)! But I am afflicted with an inveterate curiosity, and can ask questions "till the cows come home", I'm afraid. In fact, I probably couched my question clumsily there : All I was wondering was, how come Dorsey would rely on a Hunkpapa (Teton) informant for the etymology of a Lower Yanktonai band-name (SaN-ona), with a Yanktonai sub-dialect diminutive (-na) [if that is what it is] . I wondered also whether that could possibly indicate some connection with the Teton term "Saone", (which, as we know, included the Hunkpapas)? But I see that I also managed to garble what Dorsey actually wrote in his posthumous paper : "SaN-ona", Shot-at-some-white-object; this name originated from killing an albino buffalo; a Hunkpapa chief said that refugees or strangers from another tribe were so called." (BAE-B 15; [1893-94]; p.218). I know that this may indeed be spurious as you say, and proves nothing, and that my query is probably unanswerable, but I just thought J.O. Dorsey's statement seemed a little odd in that place! He doesn't mention the term "Saone" at all under his section on the "TitoNwaN" in the same paper (pp.218-221). Thanks again for the information. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 08/08/2006, at 4:33 AM, Koontz John E wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Clive Bloomfield wrote: >> > >> Question : I wonder whether the etymology of the name of the "SaN >> ona" >> [saN ?ona] band of the Lower Yanktonai, as mentioned by J.O. >> Dorsey in >> 1897 (quoted in my prev. post), regarding which he there says, >> curiously, that a HUNKPAPA informant told him meant "little [-na] >> whitish [saN-] shooter [-?o-]" , or someone who shot at something >> white >> (albino buffalo?) and thereby incurred exile, might have been in >> any way >> connected with "Saone"? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. > > The term may well be connected, but the etymology may be more or less > spurious, too. Wouldn't the diminutive be =la in Teton? And, I > think it > is generally only =na in Santee after nasal vowels. Elsewhere it > is =daN. > If the form is =na(N) here, then we'd have to assume saNuN=na(N). > I'm > not sure what the diminutive is in Stoney and Assiniboine at the > moment, > though I think it was been explained to me fairly recently by Linda > Cumberland! > > I think there are maybe two problems with the post 1850 etymologies > of the > form. One is that the individuals asked were not familiar with > s^ahaN ~ > s^aaN 'Sioux' as a possible explanation; the other is that they were > hearing the term for the first time from the questioner, who wasn't > necessarily clear on how to pronounce it. > > One of the things that strikes me about the available literature on > Dakota > divisions and band names in general, is how much of it depends on > Renville > and one or two others and their theories of how things were to be > analyzed. Because the same views are expressed in a number of > different > published sources, one has the impression they were widely > distributed, > but on further consideration, it appears that the majority of the > accounts > trace back to the same group of people. And the number seven seems > suspiciously frequent. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sat Aug 12 02:19:14 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:19:14 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wak?nda - and the word Wak?n (snake). The root of both words is "k?n-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wak?nda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Aug 12 20:18:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:18:09 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N Dakotan: makhaN wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' Ofo oNkt?fi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wak?nda - and the word Wak?n (snake). The root of both words is "k?n-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wak?nda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. From boris at terracom.net Sat Aug 12 22:32:34 2006 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:32:34 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am curious as to why a final nasalized vowel is not reconstructed in the 'medicine' set but is in the 'sacred' set, and also if there are any cognates in Crow-Hidatsa or Mandan. Thx Alan K -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N Dakotan: makhaN wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' Ofo oNkt?fi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wak?nda - and the word Wak?n (snake). The root of both words is "k?n-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wak?nda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 13 16:59:22 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:59:22 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: Sorry, my slip. The final vowel of the Proto-Siouan reconstruction for 'medicine' should be nasal. Everything is the same as far as we know between the two except for nasality and probably length on the 1st syllable vowel. We have not found viable cognates in Crow, Hidatsa or Mandan for these lexemes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The state of lexicography for Mandan and Hidatsa especially still leaves a lot to be desired. Nasality would be lost in CR and HI so [w] and [m] would collapse together. Velar stops should remain, as should vowel length. Contributions from these languages would be most welcome. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Alan Knutson Sent: Sat 8/12/2006 5:32 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. I am curious as to why a final nasalized vowel is not reconstructed in the 'medicine' set but is in the 'sacred' set, and also if there are any cognates in Crow-Hidatsa or Mandan. Thx Alan K -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms. The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *w?N:hkaN *wahk?N Dakotan: makhaN wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' Ofo oNkt?fi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wak?nda - and the word Wak?n (snake). The root of both words is "k?n-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wak?nda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Sat Aug 19 12:21:14 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:21:14 +0100 Subject: CSD Message-ID: Dear Bob abd David: This is wonderful! Many thanks for this - and for your public-spiritedness in sharing this. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 20 19:07:07 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:07:07 -0600 Subject: A Bit Off-Topic, but Not Too Far (Cheyenne) Message-ID: You can order a Cheyenne Dictioonary and various other items from the Chief Dull Knife College "storefront" in Lulu Books. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:50:34 -0700 From: Wayne Leman Subject: Chief Dull Knife College books - Lulu.com http://www.lulu.com/cdkc From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 21 00:27:57 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:27:57 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry I'm a little late reviewing these emails, but now that I'm settled (somewhat) in Lawrence, I want to make sure I didn't miss anything. I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: The similar words for 'god' and 'snake' are apparently not a coincidence, since in Sac-Fox (I think) Shawnee and Kickapoo the same two terms are also closely related according to Paul Voorhis and Dave Costa, with whom I corresponded about this a long time ago. The Algonquian words are completely different from Siouan /wakhaN/, of course, but 'snake' and 'manitou' are related in at least those Algonquian languages. So somehow there was evidently a connection seen between snakes and deities at one time. The connection may have been via the Siouan cognate set for 'medicine'. I believe I posted the follow note sometime back. It was in my computer files written in "net Siouan", so it's probably in the list archive. I can't seem to get the file to format properly into columns, but the sets should be obvious. Bob The recent discussion of the lexical class of Dakota 'wakhaN' brought to mind a historical comment I recently made in a paper that Giulia Oliverio and I are publishing. It is possible that the nominal status of 'medicine' has affected the status of 'sacred, mysterious', ordinarily a stative verb. Is it also possible that the root of 'sacred' was just -hkaN and that the wa- nominalized it? Here, in any event are the two cognate sets. 'medicine' 'sacred' *PSI: *w?N:hka *wahk?N Dakotan: makhaN wakh?N 'spirit, sacred' Chiwere: m?NkhaN wakh?N 'snake' Winneb: maN:k?N wak?N 'snake' Omaha: maNkk?N wakk?Nda 'sacred, god' Omaha maNkk?N wakk?Ndagi 'water monster' Kansa: mokk?N wakk?Nda 'holy, god' Osage: maNhk?N wahk?Nta 'holy, god' Quapaw: makk?N wakk?Ntta 'spirit, god' *OVS: *muNka 'snake' Biloxi: n-d?:si 'snake' Ofo oNkt?fi 'snake' Saponi "moka" 'snake' In 'medicine' and 'sacred' we have two semantically similar, but derivationally unrelated, roots which, quite by chance, differ only in nasalization and accent placement. Their superficial similarities appear to have led to a certain amount of mixing. The 'medicine' column is where this Ohio Valley Siouan set properly belongs phonologically, but it has undergone the semantic specialization, acquiring the meaning 'snake', that is typical of the 'sacred' set in particular geographical areas. 'Sacred' underwent an exactly parallel change in Winnebago, Chiwere and Omaha. Here it should be noted that the concepts 'God, sacred' and 'snake' were related in much of the prehistoric eastern and central U.S. Nevertheless, there is identical semantic specialization in all three OVS languages. Paul Voorhis provided comments on the areal nature of this phenomenon. Voorhis points to similar parallel conflation of 'snake' and 'deity' in Kickapoo. Shawnee maneto is similarly 'snake' (David Costa, personal communication). Here, as usual, Biloxi and Ofo lose initial labial resonants, while Virginia Siouan keeps them. The -(k)desi portion of the Biloxi and Ofo cognates means 'striped' or 'spotted' and has good cognates throughout Siouan. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Fri 8/11/2006 9:19 PM To: Earl Fenner Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Earl: I believe I can explain it out for IOM in regard to the word for "God"/ "Thunders" (in an older traditional application) and the word "snake." There was a Snake Clan, long extinct, which still exists among the Ponca and Winnebago. How would you render an explaination to someone who noted the similarity? Jimm [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may noted the coincidental similarity of the word - Wak?nda - and the word Wak?n (snake). The root of both words is "k?n-" (holy; sacred; consecrated). This does not infer to some kind of reptile divinity. To the contrary, the term Wak?nda is most likely related to the Lakota term, "wakan: holy, mysterious" both sharing the same root of origin]. --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sat Aug 19 19:44:39 2006 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:44:39 -0400 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt From linguista at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 11:31:06 2006 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:31:06 -0500 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <4a5009f2db8d.44e731e7@ou.edu> Message-ID: Ivan - Welcome! I'm heading down your way in about thirty minutes, actually. I'm going to be in White Eagle for the Ponca Powwow and a few days afterward, hoping to get some fieldwork done. I'm a PhD student in Linguistics at Minnesota, myself, and am rather new at this list as well. I'm fascinated by your area of focus. I just took a course last term on language contact, and wound up writing my term paper essentially as a prospectus on contact research in modern Ojibwe and Omaha-Ponca. I am highly interested in the way the languages are absorbing either covert or overt characteristics of the majority language (English) and in how the dynamic of decreasing L1 population and increasing L2 population will affect the grammar itself in the process of revitalisation. Parallels to Hebrew revitalisation are striking, and potential outcomes have eerie political ramifications: some have called Israeli Hebrew a Hebrew-lexifier creole with Semitic morphology on a Germanic/Slavic phonological/syntactic base! How would a similar outcome be viewed in an indigenous context? Is anyone ready for this? These are some of the pressing questions in modern language contact! In terms of your questions regarding availability of resources, my answer is: highly doubtful. There are many texts and resources which mention one tribe historically having had interactions with other tribes, and some may even mention bilingualism, but I doubt that any of them took upon themselves the task of documenting this bilingualism and its effects. Serious research on language contact is very rare and very difficult to verify. Conclusions on language contact are sometimes among the least stable conclusions that can be made in linguistics. The field of language contact is truly in its infancy still today, and will welcome all the development it can get! You will be able to find some examples of loanwords at very least. Although Siouan languages have historically been resistant to loanwords, particularly from colonial languages, there are some. I can send you my bibliography for my term paper last semester as a starting point. It'll have to wait until after I find it, though, because I'm about to board a Greyhound bus! One loanword which stands out in my mind is OP "kukusi" (pig) (from French). I would suppose its analogue in Osage might be "hkohkosi" or the like. Another area of great interest are loan calques, in which the syntax of a foreign concept is borrowed and superimposed over indigenous roots. These, I suspect, are much more common than actual loans in Siouan. But they are harder to document and to prove their origins. Anyway, gotta get going. If you're going to be up around Osage/Ponca/Kaw country anytime soon, let Bob Rankin or Justin McBride know, because they have my contact information (and I believe all of us will be getting together at some point next week). - Bryan Gordon On 8/19/06, ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan > Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University > of Oklahoma. > > I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to > know if there is documentation available about language contact and the > Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century > historical period. > > For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some > also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they > also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some > colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? > > Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from > non-Siouan languages? > > Thank you. > > Ivan Ozbolt > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 21 16:05:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:05:45 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hi Ivan, The number of loans we've spotted is quite small. There's 'pig' as Bryan noted. 'Horse' is /hkawa/, Kansa /kkawaye/, Spanish caballo. 'Big, large' is /laNdhe/, Kansa, /loNye/, both earlier */gdhaNdhe/ from Spanish grande. The form with the /g/ intact is preserved in a lake name in SE Colorado. 'Firewater' for distilled spirits is probably a loan-translation or calque from Algonquian languages spoken farther east, or possibly a translation of Spanish aguardiente. Rory Larson, here on the list, has a nice MA thesis from U. of Nebr. on adapatation of modern vocabulary in Omaha that might be helpful. There is evidence of contact with Comanche, certainly, since Comanche for 'black bear' is pretty clearly borrowed from Osage /wasape/. The Quapaws had closer contact with the French and with the Mobilian Jargon. They have /skadi/ 'money' from Choctaw or Chickasaw /skali/ < Fr. escalin 'shilling'. They also have /ppikayoN/ from picayune. Do let us know if you locate others. Bob Rankin ________________________________ > For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 16:28:56 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:28:56 -0700 Subject: Osage borrowings In-Reply-To: <4a5009f2db8d.44e731e7@ou.edu> Message-ID: Hello Ivan, It's nice to hear from someone interested in Osage. There are only a few terms that I've identified as borrowings in Osage. Monkapo 'coat, overcoat' is one, obviously from French. Then there's hkawa 'horse' that is probably from Spanish 'caballo'. Likewise laaNdhe 'large, great' from Spanish 'grande'. c'? htaaN 'devil', literally 'big snake' is probably from English 'Satan'. [where c represents what may be written also as ts]. There are a couple of borrowings from Omaha-Ponca, and only one or two I've found from English: dhuhkiNki 'curly' and probably 'make curly, curl' (accent on second syllable). The dhu- is the causative 'make' or 'by hand'. There's the related form hkihkiNniN 'curly; curly or tangled hair, black (African) hair'. (accent on first syllable) I realize that the nasality seems reversed in the two 'curly' forms, but I've written them the way I heard them. I hope this is helpful. Welcome to the list. Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:45 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Language contact Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 16:34:59 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:34:59 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, yes, there's hkohkosa 'pig, shoat, hog' in Osage, likely a borrowing from French. Accent on first syllable, although accent shifts in some expressions to second syllable hkohkosa ekon 'hoggish' and hkohkosa weli 'lard, pig fat'. Carolyn Quintero _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan Gordon Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 4:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Ivan - Welcome! I'm heading down your way in about thirty minutes, actually. I'm going to be in White Eagle for the Ponca Powwow and a few days afterward, hoping to get some fieldwork done. I'm a PhD student in Linguistics at Minnesota, myself, and am rather new at this list as well. I'm fascinated by your area of focus. I just took a course last term on language contact, and wound up writing my term paper essentially as a prospectus on contact research in modern Ojibwe and Omaha-Ponca. I am highly interested in the way the languages are absorbing either covert or overt characteristics of the majority language (English) and in how the dynamic of decreasing L1 population and increasing L2 population will affect the grammar itself in the process of revitalisation. Parallels to Hebrew revitalisation are striking, and potential outcomes have eerie political ramifications: some have called Israeli Hebrew a Hebrew-lexifier creole with Semitic morphology on a Germanic/Slavic phonological/syntactic base! How would a similar outcome be viewed in an indigenous context? Is anyone ready for this? These are some of the pressing questions in modern language contact! In terms of your questions regarding availability of resources, my answer is: highly doubtful. There are many texts and resources which mention one tribe historically having had interactions with other tribes, and some may even mention bilingualism, but I doubt that any of them took upon themselves the task of documenting this bilingualism and its effects. Serious research on language contact is very rare and very difficult to verify. Conclusions on language contact are sometimes among the least stable conclusions that can be made in linguistics. The field of language contact is truly in its infancy still today, and will welcome all the development it can get! You will be able to find some examples of loanwords at very least. Although Siouan languages have historically been resistant to loanwords, particularly from colonial languages, there are some. I can send you my bibliography for my term paper last semester as a starting point. It'll have to wait until after I find it, though, because I'm about to board a Greyhound bus! One loanword which stands out in my mind is OP "kukusi" (pig) (from French). I would suppose its analogue in Osage might be "hkohkosi" or the like. Another area of great interest are loan calques, in which the syntax of a foreign concept is borrowed and superimposed over indigenous roots. These, I suspect, are much more common than actual loans in Siouan. But they are harder to document and to prove their origins. Anyway, gotta get going. If you're going to be up around Osage/Ponca/Kaw country anytime soon, let Bob Rankin or Justin McBride know, because they have my contact information (and I believe all of us will be getting together at some point next week). - Bryan Gordon On 8/19/06, HYPERLINK "mailto:ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu"ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu wrote: Hello everyone, This is the first message I am sending to the Siouan List. My name is Ivan Ozbolt, and I am a MA student in Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. I am currently writing a paper on the Osage language, and I would like to know if there is documentation available about language contact and the Dhegiha tribes, particularly from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century historical period. For instance, the Osage used the sign language with other tribes, and some also spoke French. But did they use any trade jargon or pidgin? Did they also speak Comanche, a Lingua Franca of the southern Plains? Were some colonial words (from French, English, Spanish) integrated in their language? Can we find in Osage (and other Dhegiha languages) words borrowed from non-Siouan languages? Thank you. Ivan Ozbolt -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 17:04:42 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:04:42 +0100 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 17:32:56 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:32:56 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <44E9F5BA020000A600004161@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: I agree with the borrowing mentioned by Anthony of 'school'. A borrowing from Pawnee, this word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with and without aspiration in /ht/ and /hp/, and with a long vowel /aa/ and a short vowel /a/; at any rate it seems to be losing or have lost the preaspiration in ht and hp. The Pawnee form was: taapuska 'school'. As in the case of laaNdhe (grande), this borrowed form coexists with other Osage expressions for 'school'. I would like to add another that just occurred to me: ?s^padhoN ADJ N var. ?s^padho, ?Ns^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'espa?ol' - ] Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 10:05 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: re: Language contact Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 17:41:50 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:41:50 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <005e01c6c547$d7468230$0302a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: That one made it into Algonquian, too; note Miami iihpaawala~iihpaayoolwa 'Mexican, Spaniard', Ottawa eshpayoo 'Spaniard', Menominee E:spayo:w 'Spaniard', Unami sp?nayu 'Mexican, Spaniard', Shawnee spaani 'Mexican' and Gros Ventre ?isib?yoouh 'Mexican'. David > > ?s^padhoN ADJ N var. ?s^padho, ?Ns^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' > As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, > especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, > the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'espa?ol' - ] > > Carolyn Quintero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 17:50:47 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:50:47 +0100 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <005e01c6c547$d7468230$0302a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: Carolyn et al: John K deserves big thanks from me for searching out an impressive number of borrowings into OP. I forget whether the name of the pawnee Iruska society is connected with a similar-sounding Dhegiha society (yes, I know it's been the subject of correspondence on here before and I should consult the archives...) but that may be an example too. The Osage form for "Spanish" has parallels in Quapaw and also in Caddo /hispayun/ (I think) and in Chitimacha /hespani/. I don't know if any Osage people also spoke Comanche, but it was known to some Kiowas and Plains Apaches (and there's a Comanche loan in Karankawa of the Texas coast). This is notable because Comanche presence in the southern Plains was an 18th-century innovation, so that it wasn't a long-established language which served as a lingua franca, but a relatively new one. Caddo served as a lingua franca too. Anthony >>> "Carolyn Quintero" 08/21/06 6:32 pm >>> I agree with the borrowing mentioned by Anthony of 'school'. A borrowing from Pawnee, this word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with and without aspiration in /ht/ and /hp/, and with a long vowel /aa/ and a short vowel /a/; at any rate it seems to be losing or have lost the preaspiration in ht and hp. The Pawnee form was: taapuska 'school'. As in the case of laaNdhe (grande), this borrowed form coexists with other Osage expressions for 'school'. I would like to add another that just occurred to me: ?s^padhoN ADJ N var. ?s^padho, ?Ns^padhoN adj 'Spanish; Mexican; French' As a noun: 'Spaniard, a Spanish person; any native Spanish-speaking person, especially a Mexican; a French person' Also as a noun: 'Spanish language, the - ; the French language' [Spanish 'espa?ol' - ] Carolyn Quintero -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 10:05 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: re: Language contact Hi Ivan - welcome to the list! I'm delighted that someone else here is interested in language contact. John Koontz told me a number of items that have been borrowed into Dhegiha. Several have already bveen mentioned but kkukkumiN (I think) 'cucumber' is another, probably from French concombre. There are some which may come from Native languages, such as ttappuska 'teacher', which is also found in Pawnee (the direction of transmission is not certain). A form meaning 'British' from French les anglais, has gone the rounds of Dakotan, Chiwere and Dhegiha languages in addition to Ojibwe. /aho/, which is used as agreeting in at least some Dhegiha varieties, is also found in Kiowa and Comanche according to Armagost and Wistrand-Robinson's Comance Dictionary. And then there are tribal names, which may be transparent in some languages but not in all, and which tend to be the single most borrowable item in Native North American languages. Siouan languages in general are not big borrowers. The really interesting one from my point of view is 'big', because the original Dhegiha form coexisted with it in Osage at least two centuries ago, as it's recorded in what is probably the first published Osage vocabulary, by John Bradbury. Relexification of this kind (borrowing a term which replaces a pre-existing term for a concept) is rather unusual on the Great Plains. Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon Aug 21 19:00:07 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:00:07 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkiet?opa (OS) and kki(y)ad?ba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppey?(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpey?abriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 21 19:11:13 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:11:13 +0100 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: Justin- I think Wichita has been mentioned in this context before as a partial source. And there's 'nine', too, which occurs in Algonquian, Muskogean and Siouan languages and which is another old favourite of the list. -Anthony >>> "Justin McBride" 08/21/06 8:00 pm >>> I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkiet?opa (OS) and kki(y)ad?ba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppey?(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpey?abriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 19:33:19 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:33:19 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: None of the speakers I interviewed used hpedh?briN in OS. Only hkiet?opa 'eight'. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 12:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular word. The loans are hkiet?opa (OS) and kki(y)ad?ba (KS), which vary with the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppey?(a)bliN in KS, and possibly *hpey?abriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... -Justin -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 19:32:02 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:32:02 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <002401c6c554$06a32e00$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: It can't be Potawatomi, since Potawatomi 'eight' is /shwadso/ (which has a clear Algonquian etymology), which doesn't look anything like /hkiet?opa/ or /kki(y)ad?ba/. I'm not aware of any Algonquian nos. that look like those. I think you're thinking of Miami-Illinois, which (as Bob discovered 20 years ago) borrowed its word for 'eight' from Tutelo. Dave > I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a > borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that > the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular > word. The loans are hkiet?opa (OS) and kki(y)ad?ba (KS), which vary with > the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppey?(a)bliN in KS, and possibly > *hpey?abriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. > > Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... > > -Justin > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 21 20:19:17 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:19:17 -0500 Subject: FW: cucumber, satan and eight. Message-ID: > It's nice to hear from someone interested in Osage. There are only a few terms that I've identified as borrowings in Osage. Monkapo 'coat, overcoat' is one, obviously from French. Wow, I missed that one for sure! I wonder if it's in Kaw also? 'Cucumber' and 'satan' are interesting cases that may involve loan blends. Proto-Siouan clearly had a term for 'gourd, squash' with the shape *hko:-. So kkokkomaN/kkokkomiN and similar terms in Siouan languages may have mixed their own reduplicated word and a French term. 'Satan' in Quapaw has the fuller form of the stative verb/adjective, /ttaNka/ rather than the truncated /htaN/ as in Osage. This means that EITHER the term doesn't come from English (or other European) 'satan' OR that Quapaws reinterpreted [taN] as /ttaNka/ 'great'. One could argue either way. I think I recorded two terms in Quapaw, /$attaNka/ and /$?attaNka/, with and without glottalization. 'Snake' is /wes?a/ and /$a/ is 'black, dark colored' in Quapaw, so the term could be interpreted as 'great snake' or 'the great dark one'. I don't know if these terms go back to pre-contact times or only to post missionary times. Osage /hkidhatopa/, Kansa /kkiadoba/, 'eight' at least has a folk interpretation in Siouan as 'two fours', where /to:pa/ is '4'. My earlier speculation was that, as Anthony or Justin pointed out, it came from Wichita. Working from memory (very dangerous for me nowadays), the Wichita word was something like /kiatawha/ or the like. David can correct me on that. Folk etymology does the rest. Bob From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 21 20:34:12 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:34:12 -0600 Subject: Language contact (Wichita numbers) In-Reply-To: <44EA1361020000A6000041A6@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Wichita numbers six, seven and eight all start with the "morpheme??" kiyah-, followed by the numbers for one, two and three respectively: (chi)7ass 'one' kiyehess 'six' wicha 'two' kiyahwicha 'seven' tawha 'three' kiyatawha 'eight' (Don't ask me to explain the vagaries of the "h"s, please.) The Siouan words cited in this exchange look like they're built on a combination of this "prefix" and the Siouan word for 'four'. If that element is borrowed in either direction, it's meaning has shifted between "five plus" and "two times". My instincts are that that's a lot of semantic change for an element in the basic counting system, but the phonetics is certainly intriguing. I'm pretty sure Bob R. worked his way through all of this a while back in a study of the numbers. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Anthony Grant wrote: > Justin- > > I think Wichita has been mentioned in this context before as a partial source. And there's 'nine', too, which occurs in Algonquian, Muskogean and Siouan languages and which is another old favourite of the list. > > -Anthony > > >>> "Justin McBride" 08/21/06 8:00 pm >>> > I may be mistaken, but I think one of the two forms of 'eight' is probably a > borrowing in both Osage and Kansa. I believe the popular thinking is that > the original source is Potawatomi, but I've never heard that particular > word. The loans are hkiet?opa (OS) and kki(y)ad?ba (KS), which vary with > the historically Dhegiha-derived form ppey?(a)bliN in KS, and possibly > *hpey?abriN in OS, but I don't know if the latter form is attested. > > Wow, that sounds pretty vague! Hope it helps, though... > > -Justin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. > <<<>>> > From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Tue Aug 22 04:15:54 2006 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:15:54 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for ?Monkapo? (ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero?s dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /?s^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates ?Spaniard?, and his dictionary doesn?t have an entry for ?French?. However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never ?creolized? anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 22 14:15:04 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:15:04 -0700 Subject: Language contact In-Reply-To: <8b8b06feb62b.44ea3eaa@ou.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported to me, without hesitation. Many of those interviewed were full bloods, and had used Osage as their primary language during earlier times. Some had been monolingual in Osage until they attended grade school where they learned English. However, by the time I began interviewing them, the language hadn't been used for some time in daily communication, probably since about the 1970s at the latest, although this is just a guess, and then only among certain older friends and family members. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for ?onkapo?(ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero? dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /?^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates ?paniard? and his dictionary doesn? have an entry for ?rench? However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never ?reolized?anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 15:42:42 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: Language contact Message-ID: Given history and location, we should probably look carefully at the Quapaw lexicon again too. I think it is even more likely that they absorbed some additional French and possibly Mobilian vocabulary. Glad to see /moNkapo/ thoroughly explained, as, in its Osage phonetic form, it would mean "my condom". :-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Carolyn Quintero Sent: Tue 8/22/2006 9:15 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Language contact Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported to me, without hesitation. Many of those interviewed were full bloods, and had used Osage as their primary language during earlier times. Some had been monolingual in Osage until they attended grade school where they learned English. However, by the time I began interviewing them, the language hadn't been used for some time in daily communication, probably since about the 1970s at the latest, although this is just a guess, and then only among certain older friends and family members. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Language contact Thank you very much to all of you for your very instructive answers. I am actually from France, and I would not have guessed the loans from French, except for ?onkapo?(ma capote). I am anxious to see Dr. Carolyn Quintero? dictionary published. I am surprised to learn that /?^padhoN/ is a generic term also including Mexicans and French. La Flesche (1932, p.333) only indicates ?paniard? and his dictionary doesn? have an entry for ?rench? However, it seems to me that the contacts with French traders were more extensive and extended than with the Spaniard. Even when Louisiana failed under the control of Spain, the Osages continued to interact for the most part with people of French origin. The mixed blood Osages generally spoke French in addition to Osage, until they shifted to English in the second half of the nineteenth century. Maybe the fact that the mixed bloods and the full bloods were clearly distinct populations can explain the lack of borrowings? In any event, the mixed bloods never ?reolized?anything, although they spoke two languages over several generations. Thank you very much again for your warm welcome, and I will be very glad to participate again to share my findings. Ivan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Tue Aug 22 17:05:21 2006 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:05:21 -0700 Subject: Names for the French In-Reply-To: <000b01c6c5f5$5da14fb0$2201a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: There was a somewhat parallel development in Caddo, where the word for Frenchman is Ka:nush, which is evidently the last two syllables of Mexicanos, perhaps borrowed from Tonkawa with a regular Caddo palatalization of s after u. It seems to have started as a word for all Europeans, and then later on to be limited to the French, when Mexicans came to be called Ispayun. --Wally > Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for is^padhoN, I agree > that it is surprising that it is used for people of French origin. That > is what the last speakers I worked with in the 1980s and 1990s reported > to me, without hesitation. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 20:55:11 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:55:11 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: Re: Wichita /kiyatawha/ 'eight' David wrote: > The Siouan words cited in this exchange look like they're built on a combination of this "prefix" and the Siouan word for 'four'. If that element is borrowed in either direction, it's meaning has shifted between "five plus" and "two times". My instincts are that that's a lot of semantic change for an element in the basic counting system, but the phonetics is certainly intriguing. I'm pretty sure Bob R. worked his way through all of this a while back in a study of the numbers. Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. Carolyn wrote: > EIGHT. the only forms I have for 'eight' are hkietoopa (accent on -too) and its less frequent variant. hkidhetoopa (accent on dhe). (No hkidha... forms for 'eight'.) I think I'm detecting a problem, since kidha 'each' etc. (accent on either syllable) seems to occur with a plain k, rather than hk. Unless these forms are unrelated. For OS 'eight' I recorded /kkidha-/ as the first part in about 1980. Also Laflesche has "kitha" (with K-dot) from the turn of the century, and it can't be one of his "Poncaisms" because the word doesn't occur in OM or PO. I suspect the forms in /e/ are recent, although anything is possible. In that vein, there is a Kaw variant given to me by Walter Kekahbah, /kkialoba/, with a mysterious /l/. Go figure. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 22 21:04:47 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:04:47 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: > I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) The bottom line is "I don't know". There is much in Biloxi that is simply mysterious to me. Initial labial sonorants normally are lost. They remain in /maNki/ 'be lying' because it is tacked onto the end of other verbs as an aspect-marking enclitic. I'd be more inclined to appeal to sound symbolism with 'howl', but who knows? I don't know why the initial /m-/ would be retained in 'god', but "theophony" comes to mind, i.e., words for the deity are often phonologically anomalous. Allah is supposedly the only Arabic word with an "emphatic" L. And many Christian ministers who otherwise lack an open-O in their speech have the phoneme in "Gawd". Who knows? The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 22 21:00:17 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:00:17 -0700 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's the best guess as to where this Wichita -> Osage/Kaw borrowing would have taken place? Were they adjacent in the early contact period? Dave C > Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is > that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan > *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] > into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as > having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense > of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt > replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that > facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning > "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can > see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four > separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps > four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 22 21:21:41 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:21:41 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob wrote: > For OS 'eight' I recorded /kkidha-/ as the first part in about 1980. Also Laflesche has "kitha" (with K-dot) from the turn of the century, and it can't be one of his "Poncaisms" because the word doesn't occur in OM or PO. I suspect the forms in /e/ are recent, although anything is possible. In that vein, there is a Kaw variant given to me by Walter Kekahbah, /kkialoba/, with a mysterious /l/. Go figure. Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 23 11:04:11 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:04:11 +0100 Subject: Names for the French In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was once told by Jan Ullrich that the word for Frenchman in Lakota was was^icu-h^ca ie 'white man par excellence', which would make sense if they were the first white men the Dakotans met, others such as the British and Americans having specific names. Incidentally I know that s^agdas^a or s^aglas^a 'British/English' is said to come from les Anglais, but a Lakota lady in Standing Rock once referred to the Mets or Crees who live in Standing Rock also as s^aglas^a. She said that to her the name seemed to imply scruffy or ragged ie unlike the Lakotas, not very politically correct no doubt, but it is interesting to note how people interpret the names which they use. Bruuce--- Wallace Chafe wrote: > There was a somewhat parallel development in Caddo, > where the word for > Frenchman is Ka:nush, which is evidently the last > two syllables of > Mexicanos, perhaps borrowed from Tonkawa with a > regular Caddo > palatalization of s after u. It seems to have > started as a word for all > Europeans, and then later on to be limited to the > French, when Mexicans > came to be called Ispayun. > --Wally > > > Thanks for the clarification on ma capote. As for > is^padhoN, I agree > > that it is surprising that it is used for people > of French origin. That > > is what the last speakers I worked with in the > 1980s and 1990s reported > > to me, without hesitation. > > ___________________________________________________________ Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 15:17:37 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:17:37 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: In the early historical period the Caddoan-speaking tribes tended to occupy the north-south band of territory in the central plains immediately to the west of the Siouan-speaking tribes. While distribution of the term suggests borrowing before a definitive Kansa/Osage split, this can't be guaranteed and the term could have been borrowed or adapted twice. If the folk-analysis of /kki(y)ado:ba/ turned out to be accurate, i.e., if 'eight' was somehow "remodeled" on the basis of finger counting on two hands, then maybe the Wichita term was nothing more than a stimulus, if even that. I find it very suspicious that the Wichita and KS/OS terms are so similar, but beyond that it's just very hard to say. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Tue 8/22/2006 4:00 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage 'eight' What's the best guess as to where this Wichita -> Osage/Kaw borrowing would have taken place? Were they adjacent in the early contact period? Dave C > Well, that doesn't mean I understand it. :-) I suspect what happened is > that, when the word was borrowed, the /tawha/ was (re)interpreted as Siouan > *to:pa 'four' (Lord knows how speakers of OS and KS would have adapted [wh] > into their speech). Then the remaining [kkidha] HAD to be interpreted as > having some meaning that would turn 4 into 8. So semantic change in the sense > of some sort of steady progression probably wasn't involved. Just a gestalt > replacement. I think OS and KS have some words that sound like [kiya] that > facilitated this interpretation. Dorsey interprets the parts as meaning > "again four", and he lists KS /kkiya/ as meaning 'separate, apart'. You can > see how, especially if you're using finger counting in sign language, "four > separate" or "four apart" might be construed as totaling eight (i.e., perhaps > four on each hand). But the truth is hard to know. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 15:09:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:09:05 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 16:13:25 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:13:25 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 18:04:27 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 19:18:36 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:18:36 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 23 20:13:13 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:13:13 -0700 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been trying to think of an Osage cognate but come up empty-handed. Osage doesn't have lopa*, lipa*, lupa* at all, nor versions with hl- or xl-, that I can find. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:13 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole thing'? > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. Rory -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 20:36:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:36:09 -0500 Subject: Osage 'eight' Message-ID: Quapaw has /bdo'ka/ 'round, circular; whole, entire', as expected. No *kdopa or *kdoba. So *bdhoka would be the older form. You can check and see if it's in the CSD MS -- I think Chiwere has something like /broge/, which would be the proper cognate. With that accentual pattern it probably has a long vowel = bro:ge. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 2:18 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage 'eight' >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 23 20:56:22 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:56:22 -0600 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with > > Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole > > thing'? > > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. OP has bdhu'ga ~ gdhu'ba. I believe the latter is a minority alternate form involving metathesis. Compare also xdhabe' ~ xa'bdhe (not xabdhe', I think) 'tree'. My impression is that speakers respond to both alternates in each case and don't deprecate either form, but use only one themselves, perhaps as a matter of family lect. I don't think there is any consistency in pattern, e.g., I seem to recall that my first consultant said bdhu'ga (not sure) but xa'bdhe (sure). I assume that the second alternative in each case was originally a faux pas resulting from the difficulty of the clusters. It's possible some sort of humor was also originally involved in these transpositions or modifications, to judge from such English patterns as "automagically," though I have no evidence for a humorous reading here. We did have something like that in the case of changing terms for 'St. Louis'. Another OP form that has a modification of a C+dh cluster is gdhebaN 'ten', now universal for original gdhebdhaN. The latter is actually attested in the 1820s and matches, e.g., Osage lebraN or Dakotan (wi)kc^emna < PS *kyepraN. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed Aug 23 21:12:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:12:06 -0600 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of > another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word > for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not > much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I > don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Ah, nice one, Rory! I'm not sure what the etymology is here, or which form is original. This reminds me that I've seen some somewhat similar things in Dakotan. For example, some of the gm-words seem to be modifications of bl- or gl-words. I don't recall the specific examples. Anyway, the sources of gm are otherwise obscure to me. I also seem to recall some oddities reported by Shaw or Carter in their discussions of reduplications. Anyway, speech errors and/or playing with sounds for effect definitely occurs in Siouan languages as often as elsewhere. Incredibly munged forms in fast speech also occur. I can think of a few examples of those which cost me many hours of anguished analysis. It's just harder to see such things and deal with them, accepting them for what they are, when one is struggling hard with the basics. If the goal is discovering an underlying perfect form and regular rules for diverging from it, it seems unfair that the speakers should produce arbitrary or accidental alternate forms with unselfconscious or even deliberate abandon. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 23 21:11:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:11:05 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') Message-ID: Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the metathesis. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 3:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > Does Kaw reduce what in OP is gdh- to l-, as I believe happens with > > Osage? Could that -loba be equated to OP gdhu'ba, 'all', 'the whole > > thing'? > > Yes, it does. But 'all, whole' is /bloga/ in Kaw, so there's been some messing around with the initial cluster. OP has bdhu'ga ~ gdhu'ba. I believe the latter is a minority alternate form involving metathesis. Compare also xdhabe' ~ xa'bdhe (not xabdhe', I think) 'tree'. My impression is that speakers respond to both alternates in each case and don't deprecate either form, but use only one themselves, perhaps as a matter of family lect. I don't think there is any consistency in pattern, e.g., I seem to recall that my first consultant said bdhu'ga (not sure) but xa'bdhe (sure). I assume that the second alternative in each case was originally a faux pas resulting from the difficulty of the clusters. It's possible some sort of humor was also originally involved in these transpositions or modifications, to judge from such English patterns as "automagically," though I have no evidence for a humorous reading here. We did have something like that in the case of changing terms for 'St. Louis'. Another OP form that has a modification of a C+dh cluster is gdhebaN 'ten', now universal for original gdhebdhaN. The latter is actually attested in the 1820s and matches, e.g., Osage lebraN or Dakotan (wi)kc^emna < PS *kyepraN. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 23 22:07:17 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:07:17 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the metathesis. Bob That thought occurred to me too. Maybe Kathy or Tom could weigh in here? Re Dorsey 1890, I can say that gdhu'ba does not occur in the first 10 stories, but that bdhu'ga does. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 23 23:55:40 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:55:40 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. > Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. But it seems I'm coming up with far more questions than answers, as usual, so I'll stop here! Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > I take it from this that Biloxi "Kuhi MaNkde," God, must really mean "High Sacred" ? or some such interpretation? I was almost thinking maNkde was related to the positional maNki (lying, reclining) as in "One Reclining Above." (Kind of funny now that I think about it, but that pretty much matches the Christian tradition I think of God being an All-Seer looking down on us from above making sure we behave ourselves. Of course this name probably goes back to long before the arrival of Europeans and Christianity in North America.) Anyway, apparently this word 'maNkde' is also related to the Biloxi word for "snake" aNdesi or ndesi? (Let's see, so (m)aNkdesi which may have been originally (w)aNkdesi? I take it there's often some correlation/alternation between Biloxi initial m- and initial w- as in mahe or wahe, both meaning 'howl'. I know something like this m/w alternation exists in Hidatsa, and perhaps in other Siouan languages as well?) The bottom line is "I don't know". There is much in Biloxi that is simply mysterious to me. Initial labial sonorants normally are lost. They remain in /maNki/ 'be lying' because it is tacked onto the end of other verbs as an aspect-marking enclitic. I'd be more inclined to appeal to sound symbolism with 'howl', but who knows? I don't know why the initial /m-/ would be retained in 'god', but "theophony" comes to mind, i.e., words for the deity are often phonologically anomalous. Allah is supposedly the only Arabic word with an "emphatic" L. And many Christian ministers who otherwise lack an open-O in their speech have the phoneme in "Gawd". Who knows? The question here is whether the area where Biloxi was spoken fell within the area in which 'god' and 'snake' were somehow related (via 'medicine'?). I'm afraid my knowledge doesn't extend to that sort of thing. Bob --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1?/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu Aug 24 02:54:17 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:54:17 EDT Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com writes: > Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with > another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' > with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the > word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or > doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is > 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was > borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put > in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = > 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. Perhaps the Biloxi word is borrowed from the Chickasaw or Choctaw word for 'tea', but it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 09:42:31 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:42:31 +0100 Subject: Osage 'eight' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory: For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 08/23/06 8:18 pm >>> >> In Omaha, this and I believe a few other words seem to do some sound symbolic alternations between bdhVgV and gdhVbV. So we have bdhu'ga too for 'all', as well as gdhu'ba. I don't think we've figured out for sure quite what the difference is. I guess the question would depend on how far back in the Omaha/Dhegihan language lineage a *bro'ka/*gro'pa alternation existed. > I had never heard of /gruba/, but I'll check Quapaw when I get home. Kaw doesn't have *loba 'all' unless in that '8' term, and I don't recall ever seeing it in OS, although Carolyn is the one who would know. Hmm. Well, maybe it's a peculiarity of (modern?) Omaha. I thought of another word that does this too, after sending off the last note. The word for 'paper'/'book' alternates between wabdha'gase and wagdha'base. Not much hope of that one being very old, I suppose. Come to think of it, I don't recall the gdhVbV forms existing even in Dorsey. Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 24 15:38:30 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:38:30 -0500 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: <44ED8297020000A600004700@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: > For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Thanks, Anthony! That makes sense. La Flesche 1932 has the same word. It's very nice to see that it is attested at such an early date! Can you tell us anything about the historical context of these sources, and the date of that "very early Osage publication"? That would be very interesting! I think we could probably reconstruct the 'book' sequence as follows: Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' 19th century Osage wagre'se, 'striped thing', 'book' 19th century Omaha waba'greze, 'thing striped by pushing/writing', 'paper with writing', 'book' 20th century Omaha wabra'gase, 'book' (after metathesis) 20th century Omaha wagra'base, 'book' (after metathesis) Dorsey and Fletcher & La Flesche both have the waba'greze term. The Stabler-Swetland dictionary (1970s) has both the the wabra'gase and wagra'base terms for both 'book' and 'paper'. It also includes about three compounds that use waba'greze, though these may be coming from Fletcher & La Flesche. I believe our elder speaker today has come down firmly in favor of wagra'base, at least for 'book'. Dorsey records a different term for 'book' from Ponka: waba'g^u. This would mean 'a thing written', based on bag^u', 'to write'. It looks like the Omaha term may be based on the Osage term, but loosely, at a time when the word was more descriptive than nominal. Ponka took a different route, but used the same term for 'write' as the Omaha. La Flesche (1932) does not seem to record a word for 'write' from Osage. The Dakota forms for 'write' (Williamson) are entirely different. The term must have come into Omaha at least by their Bellevue period (~1845-1855), when they were living next to a major wagon train terminus and their children were being educated by missionaries. Perhaps it came in earlier, even as early as the late 18th century, as a reference to traders' ledger books. It would be interesting to know the Iowa-Oto term(s), as the latter share with the Omaha a lot of acculturation terms that probably came in during the Bellevue period. The Kaw term would also be nice to know. In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 16:19:52 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:19:52 +0100 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory et al: The book is: Wa fa fe wa gry sy Laekens wa kaxa peo, where is sh/zh. Publisghed 1837 in Stockbridge, KS by the Shawanoe Mission Press set up by Rev. Jotham Meeker, this book was put together by Johnston Lykins. I got a lot of help for this (which is discussed in an article in the memorial volume for Frank Siebert) from people who are on this list, so to Jimm, Bob R, John K, Carolyn, and Dave C, once more: wibdhahaN, and indeed p'ilamayaN. Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 08/24/06 4:38 pm >>> > For what it's worth, the only Osage form for 'book' that I've seen reconstructs as something like /wagrese/ or /wagresa/, with the labial-vocalic CV completely missing. I don't know if it's relevant but as very earlky Osage publication spells 'book' in a Roman-based orthography as and I think Montgomery and Requa c. 1834 uses . Thanks, Anthony! That makes sense. La Flesche 1932 has the same word. It's very nice to see that it is attested at such an early date! Can you tell us anything about the historical context of these sources, and the date of that "very early Osage publication"? That would be very interesting! I think we could probably reconstruct the 'book' sequence as follows: Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' 19th century Osage wagre'se, 'striped thing', 'book' 19th century Omaha waba'greze, 'thing striped by pushing/writing', 'paper with writing', 'book' 20th century Omaha wabra'gase, 'book' (after metathesis) 20th century Omaha wagra'base, 'book' (after metathesis) Dorsey and Fletcher & La Flesche both have the waba'greze term. The Stabler-Swetland dictionary (1970s) has both the the wabra'gase and wagra'base terms for both 'book' and 'paper'. It also includes about three compounds that use waba'greze, though these may be coming from Fletcher & La Flesche. I believe our elder speaker today has come down firmly in favor of wagra'base, at least for 'book'. Dorsey records a different term for 'book' from Ponka: waba'g^u. This would mean 'a thing written', based on bag^u', 'to write'. It looks like the Omaha term may be based on the Osage term, but loosely, at a time when the word was more descriptive than nominal. Ponka took a different route, but used the same term for 'write' as the Omaha. La Flesche (1932) does not seem to record a word for 'write' from Osage. The Dakota forms for 'write' (Williamson) are entirely different. The term must have come into Omaha at least by their Bellevue period (~1845-1855), when they were living next to a major wagon train terminus and their children were being educated by missionaries. Perhaps it came in earlier, even as early as the late 18th century, as a reference to traders' ledger books. It would be interesting to know the Iowa-Oto term(s), as the latter share with the Omaha a lot of acculturation terms that probably came in during the Bellevue period. The Kaw term would also be nice to know. In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 24 18:18:31 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although I'm not sure why t would change to d). But 'tixi' meaning 'sacred (medicinal/curing) root' sounds very convincing and plausible to me, even more than the 'tea' interpretation! Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com writes: Just for the record, the Biloxi word(s) for 'medicine' is tixi, with another variant tyi. Come to think of it, this may actually be the same word 'ti,' with a palatalized variant 'tyi,' if that -xi suffix on 'tixi' is really the word for 'sacred/mysterious' that also occurs in 'aNya xi' meaning chief or doctor. Further, apparently the Chickasaw and Choctaw (?) word for 'tea' is 'tii,' of course probably a borrowing from English. But I wonder if it was borrowed into Biloxi to mean 'medicine' since medicinal plants are often put in teas. Then perhaps the real Biloxi translation would be 'ti xi' = 'sacred/mysterious tea' or something like that. Perhaps the Biloxi word is borrowed from the Chickasaw or Choctaw word for 'tea', but it is also possible that it reflects retention of an old Siouan-Catawba root. The Catawba root for 'root' is -ti:. It is a dependent root (meaning it never occurs by itself), but is found in such constructions as ?yapti: 'tree root' and, more important to the current discussion, wiNti: 'medicinal root, medicine' as a compound with the older word for 'medicine', which itself is not found uncompounded in the Catawba data, wiN. Blair --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 24 19:27:51 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:51 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. Message-ID: > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although I'm not sure why t would change to d). But 'tixi' meaning 'sacred (medicinal/curing) root' sounds very convincing and plausible to me, even more than the 'tea' interpretation! Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 24 21:43:28 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: 'snake' and 'god' terms. -- correction Message-ID: Sorry, make that reconstruction *hu:te with an accented 1st syllable. I was going by the reanalyzed Dhegiha form. In the CSD we suggested that the Catawba form cited by Blair suggests a compound of *hu:re 'stem' and 'root'. Bob ________________________________ > Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 25 15:07:21 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: '07 SxLangLingConf Message-ID: In Billings this past June, Saskatchewan, Canada and Norman, OK was offered as locations for next year's Conference. Has there been any further thoughts on it. jgt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 11:29:53 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:29:53 +0100 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <002901c6c858$87f9f360$b40d133f@JIMM> Message-ID: I am personally very much in favour of Saskatoon. As I come a long way, I like to see as much of the New World as possible. Also they speak Dakota and Cree there, which are within my realm of interest Bruce ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From pustetrm at yahoo.com Sat Aug 26 13:42:58 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:42:58 -0700 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <20060826112953.10828.qmail@web26810.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Howdy from the canyons :-))))), Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: I am personally very much in favour of Saskatoon. As I come a long way, I like to see as much of the New World as possible. Also they speak Dakota and Cree there, which are within my realm of interest Bruce ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sat Aug 26 23:46:05 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:46:05 -0600 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: <20060826134258.97164.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously > yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out > the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Gilmore (1919/1977), Useds of Plants by teh Indians of the Missouri River Region, p. 35, says "wipazuka". Buechel gives wi'pazukaN and wi'pazokaN. Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and shadblow come to mind. The OP form (from Gilmore) is "zhoN h.uda," i.e., z^aN(aN)' xu(u)'de. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 00:43:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:43:09 -0600 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Bob Rankin & Rory M Larson wrote: > Wonder if gdhuba is found in Ponca too? I haven't checked Dorsey 1890, > but both might tell us something about the age and spread of the > metathesis. Bob > > That thought occurred to me too. Maybe Kathy or Tom could weigh in here? > > Re Dorsey 1890, I can say that gdhu'ba does not occur in the first 10 > stories, but that bdhu'ga does. I wonder about that, too. For example, it seems that gdhe'baN 'ten' is now universal for earlier gdhe'bdhaN, attested in Say's vocabulary from before 1823. But was gdhebaN a variant at that time? Was it restricted to Ponca? Or to particular villages or families? I looked in Dorsey's texts, and gdhu'ba appears 90:197.19, 648.4, 648.5. These examples are attributed to S^aN'geska 'White Horse', a member of the Omaha Wolf Clan - I'm not sure which one this is! - who is described as understanding Kaw as well as Omaha. He is noted as a member of the chief's party, or a conservative. In 199.4, 199.18 the same man produces bdhu'ga. It also appears 90:335.18, 337.4, 337.8, 338.3, 338.7, 338.17, 339.5, 345.11, 345.14, 347.12, 403.14, 406.8, 411.18, 412.3, 412.10, 412.11, 468.9 (all attributed to AN'phaNttaNga, or John Big Elk, who would have to be a member of We'z^iNs^te 'Willful; Angry' know usually as the Elk Clan). He is noted a member of the citizen's party, or a progressive. JBE produces bdhu'ga 338.12, 349.17. Also 504.5 (Waz^i'[*g]a Gahi'ga 'Bird Chief', a member of the Waz^iN'ga=dhatt=a'z^i 'They Do Not Touch Birds' or Bird division of Dha'ttada 'Lefthand Side', described as an old man whose letter is a good specimen of the oratorical style. He is writing to a Ponca man. In 504.7 504.9 he produces bdhu'ga. These are exhaustive citations of gdhu'ba, but not of forms produced by the three speakers in question. It appears that speakers favor one form or the other - many other consultants clearly use bdhu'ga only - but, if they use gdhu'ba they still use bdhu'ga in varying proportions. Note that these texts date to the 1870s. It's possible that cases of bdhu'ga in a text by a person also using gdhu'ba are due to editorial correction or error. The editor might be Dorsey or it might be one of his consulting editors, e.g., Francis LaFlesche and George Miller, or it might also be due to one of his translators, e.g., ??? Sanssouci (Saunsoci in modern spellling). Another possibility is that there is nuanced difference of meaning between bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba, and some speakers prefer one nuance over the other, though in this case it seems likely that gdhu'ba would occur more widely. I couldn't find any cases of xabdhe instead of xdhabe' for 'tree'. Only xdhabe' is found. No instances of wabdha'gase or wagdha'base per se, but waba'gdheze 'book; writing; letter' does occur, upwards of 100 times. I assume the etymology is something like 'made striped or, as the case may be, spotted by pushing'. I think ba- is also used in cases where pushing per se is not really evidenced, but the tool used is oblong. I don't see any cases of wabdha'geze or waga'bdheze, etc. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:14:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:14:11 -0600 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: Lakota has a modest number of examples of gm-clusters - relying here only the words starting with gm, and not looking further. This would seem to imply a Proto-Mississippi Valley cluster *kw followed by a nasal vowel. There are also a few cases of gw, implying *kw. The problem with this implication is that corresponding forms seem not to occur. The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally widespread forms. The 'squash' form has some resemblants in Algonquian, but I am personally of the opinion that it does not originate there. (There, now I can never go to an Algonquian meeting!) As it happens, there may be a connection between the two roots, since some cucurbits, especially young ones and some cats (especially young ones) have a sort of stripey pattern on them, the sort of coincidence that interests human immensely. I swear that somewhere I saw a reference to a Mississippian artefact - a pot or a figurine - that specifically combined a cat and squash vines, but I have never been able to rediscover it. I tend to suspect that most gm and gw in Dakotan arise from sound-symbolic alternations, e.g., gwegwes 'striped, with the ribs showing', gweza 'lean, thin, ragged' cf. gle'za 'striped', gwahaN 'bad, overripe, spoiled' (presumably haN is a continuative) cf. -mnaN 'smell bad' (and OP bdhaN 'smell bad') < *praN gwu 'curdled' may suggest something of a phonaestheme gw for 'in bad condition' This is an area where it might be risky for me to venture further, with so many knowledgeable Dakotanists available! Offhand, I don't recall any discussions of this in the Dakotanist literature. It's something I noticed in the course of the CSD project, when I started looking for correspondences based on matches for particular clusters or stops, etc. My pioneer case of this was looking for matches of Dakotan #h- and OP, etc. #th-. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:26:55 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:26:55 -0600 Subject: PMV *(wa)the 'skirt' Message-ID: Mentioning matches of Dakotan #h- and OP #th- reminded me of one of my favorite lost causes. OP has wathe' 'dress' < *wathe, which has good cognates elsewhere in Siouan, but not in Dakotan. This was also one of the first words in which th was noticed to contrast with tt, as it was obvious different from Watte' 'the Elkhorn River'. A few possible matches in Dakotan: hepi'ya 'the side or flank of a hill' hepi'yela 'on the grade of a hill' Here I assume he < *the, + =pi PLURAL/NOMINALIZER + -A THEME-VOWEL. The y between pi and A is epenthetic. The -(y)A ablauts as in s^ahiya ~ s^ahiye=la, etc. I assume the figure involved is 'the skirt(s) or skirting' of the hill = 'the slope or grade', cf. also English 'outskirts'. wahe'=c^e=tu 'about ~ wahe'=c^e=l 'about that time' wahe'=haN 'betimes, in good time' wahe'=haN=l 'about at that time' I assume this means 'skirting' (or 'wrapping') the occasion, cf., English 'to skirt the issue'. Just a couple of outre ideas - a comparativist or at least non-Dakotanist approach to Dakotan etymology, if you will. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:38:42 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:38:42 -0600 Subject: 'book' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > Dhegihan *gre'ze/gre'se, 'striped' I should have read this first - I'm a bit behind on my Siouan. Rory and Anthony have already worked this one out. > In any case, this word supports what we seemed to find with bru'ga/gru'ba, > that the brVgV/grVbV alternation is a phenomenon of early 20th century > Omaha, and is presumably irrelevant to other Siouan languages. It turns out to be a bit older than that, but unless it is connected in a generic way with the Dakotan tendency to alternate bl ~ gw for sound symbolic reasons, it probably is a uniquely Omaha(-Ponca?) thing. If it is sound symbolism, then my tendency to suppose bdhuga => gdhuba by metathesis may be a bit off. If it was originally bdhuga ~ gwuga (or gdhuga?) then gwuga or gdhuga => gdhuba may be a dissimilation. I assume that *gwuga or *gdhuga would be an emphatic or vivid or 'bad, coarse' variant of bdhuga. Sort of 'the whole bunch' or 'every censored one of them' instead of just 'all'. I tend to expect that gthuga would be more likely in Omaha phonology than gwuga, but, of course, this is entirely hypothetical and unattested. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Aug 27 01:44:56 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:44:56 -0500 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koontz wrote: > Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very > difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and > shadblow come to mind. Also shad-bush, -blossom, -tree, Indian pear, wild pear, sugar plum, poire, May bush, May cherry, mespilus (former genus-name). These from OED and Mathews Dict. of Americanisms. Amelanchier has a lot of spp., so I don't know what the Linnaean referents of these common names are. If you're not familiar with the USDA Plants Database, check it out: http://plants.usda.gov/ Pictures, range-maps, taxonomy, etc. Search by Linnaean or common name. Saskatoon < Cree misaaskwatoomin 'saskatoon berry' < misaaskwat 'saskatoon bush', lit. 'that which is solid wood' (Random House Dict., ed. 2, presumably Ives Goddard). This form is [at least] Plains Cree. I'm not sure about mis- as 'solid'; it might be 'big', but neither makes sense for June berry. (But the Ojibway name means lit. 'heavy wood'.) Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 01:59:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:59:06 -0600 Subject: Noun Stem Tangent (Re: 'snake' and 'god' terms.) In-Reply-To: <20060824181831.91733.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, David Kaufman wrote: > Wow, interesting! The Biloxi words for 'root' are apparently tudi and > udi (not sure if there's some semantic difference between the two), > which I suppose could also possibly incorporate that -ti- root (although > I'm not sure why t would change to d). Me either, which is why I feel pretty confident in suggesting this: I tend to suspect that these forms involve -(d)i in which -(d)i is the stem-forming vowel, and -d- is *-r- epenthetically inserted between it and tu- or u-. The gloss here for udi is 'stalk or trunk of a plant' and it is cognate with PS *hu 'stem, stalk, long bone', cf. OP hi 'stem, stalk', wahi 'bone'. So, the form is probably u-d-i < *hu-r-e. I'm sorry I'm such a Johnny-One-Note on this -(d)i thing (cf. also the Dakotan cognate -(y)A in 'slope of a hill' and 'Cheyenne' earlier today). It's actually the Richard-One-Note thing, since the idea, at least in regard to Biloxi is Dick Carter's. Languages like Biloxi or Mandan where this final vowel formant sticks around after vowel-final stems and conditions an epenthetic glide are very helpful, since there is strong tendency in Siouan for this formant to be lost after vowel-final stems. The formant does remain widely after consonant final stems, producing the famous intricacies of Dakotan s^uNka ~ -s^uNke ~ s^unk or siNte' ~ siNl and the sometimes nightmarish complexities in reconstructing the final vowel of CVC(V) a stems. And then there are the languages - well, just Winnebago - where the glide-vowel becomes a morpheme in its own right. I think this explains Winnebago =ra 'the' and perhaps also a more obscure =re that I don't fully understand. I think it might mark object nominalizations or object relativizations, but I'm not sure. Or maybe it's a ghost. But I'm pretty sure about =ra < *-r-a. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun Aug 27 02:04:43 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:04:43 -0600 Subject: Noun Stem Tangent (RE: 'snake' and 'god' terms.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Udi is the normal BI reflex of common Siouan *hute' 'base, stump, etc.' > I don't know where the t- is coming from in the alternate form. Haas > (1968) as well as Dorsey had sporadic voicing of intervocalic stops in > Biloxi. [b, d, g] are therefore often variants of /p, t, k/, but [d] is > ALSO the regular outcome of proto-Siouan *r in Biloxi, which accounts > for why there are so many d's but so few b's and g's. I really should read ahead more. This works, but it does require one to fiddle the expected *uti. If it is *hute, then the stem (I would argue) is *hut-e. No epehtnetic *r needed after a consonant. Anyway, I do suspect that *hut-e appears in tudi 'base', since 'base, bottom, stump' is the expected gloss for *hut-e. But why t? Maybe from *hta-hute 'it's base'? From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:08:08 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:08:08 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice work, John!! That certainly shows that the gdhu'ba variant was present in the 19th century after all! > Another possibility is that there is nuanced difference of meaning between > bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba, and some speakers prefer one nuance over the other, > though in this case it seems likely that gdhu'ba would occur more widely. I like this possibility best. I recall that a couple of years ago, some of Vida's speakers in Macy got together and produced an Omaha translation of 'Silent Night'. It was a full verse translation; it rhymed and went along with the music very nicely. Mark and I were struck by the fact that the same stanza used two different words for 'all': bdhu'ga and gdhu'ba. I have the strong impression that our speakers recognize a semantic difference between them, though we've never really pinned it down. My own sense, purely off the top of my head here, is that bdhu'ga is used for 'all' as a collective plural for animate/individuated entities, while gdhu'ba is 'all' as the totality of a mass noun. I'll try to test that next time I get together with a speaker. Meanwhile, maybe we could check the semantic context of the many references you've given. > No instances of wabdha'gase or wagdha'base per se, but > waba'gdheze 'book; writing; letter' does occur, upwards of 100 times. So those forms are probably early 20th century. > I assume the etymology is something like 'made striped or, > as the case may be, spotted by pushing'. Spotted? Wouldn't that be gdhe'z^e? I'm assuming that gdhe'ze, 'striped', refers to the lines of writing. > I think ba- is also used in cases where pushing > per se is not really evidenced, but the tool used is oblong. Besides 'pushing', ba- seems to be used regularly for both 'sewing' and 'writing'. 'Drawing' takes a different instrumental prefix: bag^u', 'write', vs. dhig^u', 'draw'. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:11:51 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:11:51 -0500 Subject: 'All' and C + dh Clusters (RE: Osage 'eight') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I looked in Dorsey's texts, and gdhu'ba appears 90:197.19, 648.4, 648.5. These examples are attributed to S^aN'geska 'White Horse', a member of the Omaha Wolf Clan - I'm not sure which one this is! - who is described as understanding Kaw as well as Omaha. He is noted as a member of the chief's party, or a conservative. In 199.4, 199.18 the same man produces bdhu'ga. ZhiNtheho John, ShoNgeska is identified as Ellis Blackbird, age 50 years, with wife #1 PoNcasoN and wife #2 NoNzeiNze in Alice Fletcher's 1882 Land Allotment Register, p. 14. He is pictured in F&LaF The Omaha Tribe pp. 171-175. They report that the MoNthiNkagaxe (Earth Makers) did not have subclans, but had "groups" associated with certain rites. One was the "wolf" or mikasi group. Uthixide mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 15:57:15 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:57:15 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Lakota has a modest number of examples of gm-clusters - relying here only > the words starting with gm, and not looking further. This would seem to > imply a Proto-Mississippi Valley cluster *kw followed by a nasal vowel. > There are also a few cases of gw, implying *kw. The problem with this > implication is that corresponding forms seem not to occur. > > The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' > 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, > and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally > widespread forms. Couldn't this cluster be reconstructed as *kyw, a combination velar stop, fronting of the tongue, and pursing of the lips, all roughly simultaneous? I think French recognizes a semivowel consisting of the latter two phonotactic factors, basically the consonantal form of u-umlaut, as in /lui/. By this model, Dakotan would have lost the tongue fronting (*kyw -> *kw); Dhegihan would have lost lip-pursing, or had it absorbed into following [uN] (*kyw -> *ky -> *kr); and Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago would have cancelled *k and *y by fronting *k as a palatalized stop (*kyw -> *c^w), progressing to c^Vw in Winnebago and dw in Ioway-Otoe. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 17:03:27 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:03:27 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: > The main cases of *kw with any cognate are wagmuN' 'squash' and igmuN' 'cat', where the cognates show up with gdh in Dhegiha, dw in Ioway-Otoe, and c^Vw in Winnebago. Both words are likely to be loans - or areally widespread forms. The 'squash' form has some resemblants in Algonquian, but I am personally of the opinion that it does not originate there. I believe the similarities between the Siouan and Algonquian 'squash' terms show too many matching phonemes to be coincidence, especially given their geographic distribution. Since the Algon. is reconstructible and the Siouan is not, I'd assume the progression went from Siouan to Algonquian. Algonquian: eemehkwaan- Siouan prototype: wi- kwuN (where *wuN often dissimilates to either waN or dhuN, and where we don't know the status of vowel length in the Siouan forms because it hasn't been recorded.) At any rate, I gave John credit for the discovery before he changed his mind, and further discussion appears in: Rankin, Robert L. 2006. Siouan Tribal Contacts and Dispersions Evidenced in the Terminology for Maize and Other Cultigens. Histories of Maize: Multidisciplinary Approaches to the Prehistory, Biogeography, Domestication, and Evolution of Maize. In John E. Staller, Robert H. Tykot, Bruce F. Benz, eds. The Histories of Maize II: Part I: North America and Northern Mexico, Chapter 44, pp. 564-578. San Diego, N.Y.: Elsevier. From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 27 17:16:09 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:16:09 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: >>From Siouan to Algonquian? Do you mean the other way around, or am I misunderstanding you? This looks like a typical old loan from Algonquian to Siouan. A small thing to keep in mind is that this */e:mehkwa:na/ etymon means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it except Miami. (And in Menominee when used as a final.) I realize the obvious link is the use of gourds as spoons, but if the borrowing was especially old, either Siouan borrowed it from Miami, or Siouan changed its semantics when it borrowed the term. Dave Costa > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:03:27 -0500 > To: > Subject: RE: Dakotan gw/gm > > I believe the similarities between the Siouan and Algonquian 'squash' terms > show too many matching phonemes to be coincidence, especially given their > geographic distribution. Since the Algon. is reconstructible and the Siouan > is not, I'd assume the progression went from Siouan to Algonquian. > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 17:51:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:51:43 -0500 Subject: PMV *(wa)the 'skirt' Message-ID: To which add: Lakota: nit?-hepi 'woman's skirt; the kind that stands out from the hip (|nit?|)' (from Eli James) Dakota: heyake 'dress' Willamson-54a Yankton: hayake 'dress' Wm-54a > OP has wathe' 'dress' < *wathe, which has good cognates elsewhere in Siouan, but not in Dakotan. This was also one of the first words in which th was noticed to contrast with tt, as it was obvious different from Watte' 'the Elkhorn River'. A few possible matches in Dakotan: hepi'ya 'the side or flank of a hill' hepi'yela 'on the grade of a hill' Here I assume he < *the, + =pi PLURAL/NOMINALIZER + -A THEME-VOWEL. The y between pi and A is epenthetic. The -(y)A ablauts as in s^ahiya ~ s^ahiye=la, etc. I assume the figure involved is 'the skirt(s) or skirting' of the hill = 'the slope or grade', cf. also English 'outskirts'. wahe'=c^e=tu 'about ~ wahe'=c^e=l 'about that time' wahe'=haN 'betimes, in good time' wahe'=haN=l 'about at that time' From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 27 18:28:06 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: If I said "from Siouan to Algon." it was a stupid mistake. It should be the other way around, of course (and that was John's original conclusion in about 1986 when he did a Plains Conference paper on 'gourd/squash', 'bow' and a couple of other terms.) The squash term can mean 'dipper' in at least some Dhegiha too, as it probably can in most of the languages. So either way, the semantic correspondence is as good as the sound correspondences. Dhegiha borrows the squash term from some more southerly source and shares its term with Choctaw and Chickasaw 'corn' (derived from the general cultivar term compounded with *aci 'to grow' in Muskogean), Biloxi 'grass' and Yuchi 'gourd'. This is all discussed in the article. Bob ________________________________ >>From Siouan to Algonquian? Do you mean the other way around, or am I misunderstanding you? This looks like a typical old loan from Algonquian to Siouan. A small thing to keep in mind is that this */e:mehkwa:na/ etymon means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it except Miami. (And in Menominee when used as a final.) I realize the obvious link is the use of gourds as spoons, but if the borrowing was especially old, either Siouan borrowed it from Miami, or Siouan changed its semantics when it borrowed the term. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sun Aug 27 19:24:13 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:24:13 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could we try to put our assumptions on the table regarding the direction of loan words? If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian as *eemehkwaan-. Siouan, on the other hand, does not reconstruct so easily, though similarities are apparent with each other and with the Algonquian term. Model 1. The term originates in proto-Algonquian and is adopted variously by different Siouan daughter languages, which means that the term will not be consistent within Siouan. Model 2. The term originates from wherever as an international term and spreads variously to different languages in eastern North America. Siouan is already differentiated into its daughter languages; Algonquian is not. Thus, proto-Algonquian, proto-Dakotan, proto-Dhegihan, proto-Chiwere, etc., might be contemporaries, each adopting a technical term that comes from one of the Siouan daughter languages or, perhaps more likely, Muskogean or some other southeastern language. Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than proto-Algonquian, and that the spread of the term between the two language groups takes place after the divergence of proto-Siouan. The proper level of comparison for internal consistency would be the Siouan daughter branches with each other and Algonquian, not all of Siouan with Algonquian. To choose what language group the term originated from, we should probably look for corresponding verb roots that really make solid sense for deriving the noun (not fanciful constructions that might have been chosen to chime with a foreign term). In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Aug 27 20:04:58 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Could we try to put our assumptions on the table regarding the direction of > loan words? If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the > word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every Algonquian language except Miami. > as *eemehkwaan-. Very likely *eemehkwaana. Animate gender. > Siouan, on the other hand, does not reconstruct so easily, though similarities > are apparent with each other and with the Algonquian term. > Model 1. The term originates in proto-Algonquian and is adopted variously by > different Siouan daughter languages, which means that the term will not be > consistent within Siouan. Coming from a position of being mostly ignorant about Siouan, that seems most likely to me, esp. since it seems to match the results of some other apparent Algonquian -> Siouan loans. > Model 2. The term originates from wherever as an international term and > spreads variously to different languages in eastern North America. Siouan is > already differentiated into its daughter languages; Algonquian is not. Thus, > proto-Algonquian, proto-Dakotan, proto-Dhegihan, proto-Chiwere, etc., might be > contemporaries, each adopting a technical term that comes from one of the > Siouan daughter languages or, perhaps more likely, Muskogean or some other > southeastern language. The problem is with this scenario is that Algonquian is a few thousand years old, and since this word reconstructs very cleanly in Algonquian (and is present in every corner of the family), Occam's razor would lean heavily toward saying it was present in Proto-Algonquian, or, at the very least, a VERY OLD loan in Algonquian (almost the same thing). By the time this word was present in Proto-Algonquian, Proto-Siouan obviously hadn't split off into its daughter languages yet, either. If this etymon was present in some Siouan language that far back, that's almost equivalent to saying this word was present in Proto-Siouan. And if I understand Bob correctly, this word will not reconstruct in Proto-Siouan. Right? BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) > Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than > proto-Algonquian, You lost me here. Why would your first model suggest that? > and that the spread of the term between the two language groups takes place > after the divergence of proto-Siouan. It would help to know whether Proto-Algonquian was older than Proto-Siouan or vice versa, but offhand I couldn't offer an answer to that. > The proper level of comparison for internal consistency would be the Siouan > daughter branches with each other and Algonquian, not all of Siouan with > Algonquian. > > To choose what language group the term originated from, we should probably > look for corresponding verb roots that really make solid sense for deriving > the noun (not fanciful constructions that might have been chosen to chime with > a foreign term). Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this noun. > In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term > passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Well, if the word is not reconstructible within Siouan, and if it has a limited distribution within Siouan, that's a big hint that it's not that old within Siouan. And nothing argues against it being old within Algonquian. If the word was borrowed in Algonquian and old in Siouan, you'd expect it to (a) reconstruct cleanly in Siouan and (b) to not reconstruct well in Algonquian, and (c) to be missing from big swathes of Algonquian. The latter phenomena are not seen. If I understand Bob and John correctly, the Algonquian loans into Siouan are usually concentrated in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Chiwere -- that is, the languages with the closest proximity to Algonquian. If this word is likewise missing from, say, Tutelo, Biloxi, and Crow/Hidatsa, there'd be no way to explain that if this word was present in Proto-Siouan. But if it's a loan in Siouan, we'd expect that distribution. David C -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Aug 27 21:00:15 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:00:15 -0500 Subject: A FINAL UNDERSTANDING: WAKANDA & WAKAN (Thunders & Snakes) Message-ID: Blank Appreciating all the input from everyone, as each added more illumination of the entities involved. Then, a look into the oral literature of the IOM and HO (Winnebago), revealed the ancient relationship of two holy beings -- the Thunderers and the Water Spirits. Each balancing the other as the former arrives from the Heavens and the latter arrives from within the earth. [NOTE: Wak?nda = God. (It may be noted the similarity of the word - Wak?nda ? and the words Mak?n (medicine) and Wak?n (snake). The shared root of the words is " k?n " (holy; sacred; consecrated; mysterios). The term Wak?nda is from: " wa- (something, someone, the actor of the action, making the noun from the verb), -k?n-(state of being ' -k?n-'; -da (a locative, to be located in a place (a hill, a river, the sky). Wakanda (is) someone or something so ancient and beyond comprehension that is locatable in a direction, or in a place". (LMF). The traditional oral literature tells that: The symbolic representations are actually clear and strong in the oral literature, as the Thunder Beings and the Water Spirits belong to the oldest level of oral traditions. It is the opposition between two divine beings in the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria social structure, the "Ch?xita" (Thunderers) and their arch-enemies, the Water Spirit, called "Ish?xi" (Horned Water Panthers). Among the Hochank (Winnebago) there is a Wakandja (Thunderbird Clan) which is the largest and most important of all their clans, and so was the lead of the Sky Clans. There is also a Wakdjexi (Water Spirit Clan} who seem to lead the Earth Clans. That the latter is a clan is interesting in the fact that the Water Spirits are considered by both the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria and Hochank (Winnebago) to be a continual enemy of humans and the Thunderers. They are considered to be capable of good or evil, so they are to be feared. At the same time, they may be gallant and are capable of confering great blessings on man.. The two entities reflect the opposing balance between the Heavens and Earth, a dualism that is reflected throughout the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria and Hochank clans, kinship, society, spirituality and in the utilitarian arts and crafts of the people. (JGT) (PR). I believe this new information puts into perspective the relationship of words that share the root "-kan" (sacred, consecrated, mysterious). jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blank Bkgrd.gif Type: image/gif Size: 145 bytes Desc: not available URL: From BARudes at aol.com Sun Aug 27 22:07:41 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:07:41 EDT Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: Just to matters a bit more complicated, the Catawba word for 'gourd' is w'a:de:. If the Catawba word is related to the (Mississippi Valley) Siouan words - perhaps through a root *wa(:)t(w)-, it suggests that the earlier form was *watwuN rather than *wakwuN and that Ioway-Otoe and Winnibago are conservative while Dakotan and Dhegiha have velarized the initial member of the cluster (either in assimilation to the following *w or by contamination with the Algonquian word (?)). (There are plenty of cases of sporadic voicing of earlier /t/ to /d/ in Catawba.) Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:26:28 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:26:28 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:15:54 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:15:54 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: The term and its sound correspondences are regular and reconstructible in Algonquian. The sound correspondences are not regular in Siouan, the term only occurs in a small, geographically restricted group of Siouan languages. It contains phonological sequences that are generally inadmissible within Siouan. > In this light, exactly what is the reason for supposing that the 'squash' term passed from Algonquian to Siouan (or vice versa)? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 28 04:30:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: Dakotan gw/gm Message-ID: The problem is that we have very little understanding of Siouan/Catawban cluster phonology. You're positing a pre-Catawban form on the basis of a borrowing that only occurs in 3 Siouan languages, and the vowels don't come close to matching. Right now, I'd assume Catawba is simply unrelated. But who knows? B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Sun 8/27/2006 5:07 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dakotan gw/gm Just to matters a bit more complicated, the Catawba word for 'gourd' is w'a:de:. If the Catawba word is related to the (Mississippi Valley) Siouan words - perhaps through a root *wa(:)t(w)-, it suggests that the earlier form was *watwuN rather than *wakwuN and that Ioway-Otoe and Winnibago are conservative while Dakotan and Dhegiha have velarized the initial member of the cluster (either in assimilation to the following *w or by contamination with the Algonquian word (?)). (There are plenty of cases of sporadic voicing of earlier /t/ to /d/ in Catawba.) Blair From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Aug 28 13:48:51 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:48:51 -0700 Subject: Saskatoon berries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There we go. Thanks, John. I had only asked my speakers so far, but since they're more like into King Soopers blueberries they didn't know the word. Regina Koontz John E wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > And me, I'm picking Saskatoon berries in CO and UT. They're seriously > yummy and they're a classical Indian food. So far, I couldn't figure out > the word for those berries in Lakota tho. Gilmore (1919/1977), Useds of Plants by teh Indians of the Missouri River Region, p. 35, says "wipazuka". Buechel gives wi'pazukaN and wi'pazokaN. Amelanchier spp. has a wide variety of popular names, so it can be very difficult to look up. June berry, service berry, sarvis berry, and shadblow come to mind. The OP form (from Gilmore) is "zhoN h.uda," i.e., z^aN(aN)' xu(u)'de. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1?/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 28 20:07:57 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:07:57 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave! >> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the >> word for 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian > > No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac > to Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. > The only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the > Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, > and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every > Algonquian language except Miami. Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning found only in Miami? > > Either of these models suggests that proto-Siouan is earlier than >> proto-Algonquian, > > You lost me here. Why would your first model suggest that? I'm sorry, I knew I was being a little sloppy when I phrased it that way. My point was that Siouan definitely needs to be differentiated into distinct daughter languages at the time the term spreads in Siouan, else the term would reconstruct cleanly in Siouan. That restriction would not be on Algonquian, since the term does reconstruct there. Hence, we could imagine the term spreading from (unitary) proto-Algonquian to several different Siouan languages, which would imply that proto-Siouan was older. Of course, it would also be possible for the term to be present universally in Algonquian long before it ever spread to Siouan. In this model (say, Model 1b), proto-Algonquian could be as old or older than proto-Siouan. This picture is a little awkward for me though, because it seems to imply that Algonquians were engaged in an important bit of technology (either spoons or squashes) for a long period of time before other Indians became sufficiently aware of that technology to need a word for it. Model 1b is certainly possible, but it raises interesting questions about the historical distribution and modes of social and economic interaction of all parties concerned. Model 2 (non-Algonquian source) and Model 1a (proto-Algonquian to Siouan daughter languages) allow the term to spread as an international term as soon as any group makes the technological innovation and coins the word, which seems more obvious to me with regard to the mechanics of an innovation spreading. You make the argument that, since the term reconstructs in proto-Algonquian but not in proto-Siouan, the term must be old in Algonquian but recent in Siouan. This is true, but 'old' and 'recent' are relative until we can pin down just how old these respective groups are. Thus, if Algonquian is 2000 years old and Siouan is 3000 years old, and if squashes or spoons came into fashion in the first millennium AD, then the international word for them might have spread through Algonquian in a form that could be reconstructed to proto-Algonquian, while the various Siouan languages that adopted it might have been sufficiently distinct by that time that their respective adoptions would clearly clash. In this version, 'old' in Algonquian and 'recent' in Siouan might be contemporary in absolute time. That being said, I have to agree that Bob's reply to your query: > > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All > > over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? > > Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. > Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. pretty well makes the case for Model 1b here. I had the mistaken impression that the terms under discussion were widespread in Siouan, and that they were consistent within each daughter group. I'm certainly not going to suggest now that proto-Algonquian is more recent than proto-Dakotan! I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups that presumably did not grow squashes? Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their Algonquian neighbors? Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? > Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this noun. So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. That was a good discussion, Dave. Thanks for the information! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Aug 28 20:13:08 2006 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:08 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It occurs with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand nagmu - to twist of its own accord yugmu - to twist smth in the hand wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 28 21:42:24 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:42:24 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for >>> 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian >>> >> No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to >> Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The >> only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the >> Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, >> and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. >> > Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Cheyenne, yes, don't happen to know about Blackfoot offhand. >> Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every >> Algonquian language except Miami. >> > Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean > 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning > found only in Miami? > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. > I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term > originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in > Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally > 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups > that presumably did not grow squashes? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. As for the Siouans who borrowed the term, they could have either borrowed it from Miami directly, or, just as plausibly, borrowed it from someone else but made the same semantic shift in the word when they borrowed it. > Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their > Algonquian neighbors? I have absolutely no idea. > Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the > word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was a new concept. >> Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally >> reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That >> might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps >> it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this >> noun. >> > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would have been geographically that far back. Dave From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 01:22:50 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:22:50 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: It could be. Alternatively, the 'twisted' meaning could be derived from 'squash'. The reason I wonder about this is because there is a common Siouan term, something like *wriN, and it occurs in numerous languages and subgroups. GmuN, as far as I know, has this meaning only in Dakotan. Gm just isn't an ordinary Siouan cluster with a clear source. So far it seems to come from a nasalized [kw] cluster, which doesn't occur in native etyma, or, assuming JEK is onto something with his sound symbolism argument -- which seems reasonable -- then that might be a second source. But as far as I know, there is no proto-Siouan source for gm. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan F. Ullrich Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 3:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It occurs with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand nagmu - to twist of its own accord yugmu - to twist smth in the hand wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > BTW, Bob, what is the geographic distribution of this word in Siouan? All over, or only in the Mississippi Valley languages, or what? Northern part of Mississippi Valley only: Dakotan (wagmu, wamna, dialectally) and Chiwere-Winnebago only. Dhegiha is different. Note that, even within Dakotan, the vowels don't match. > (Far as I know, the word doesn't reconstruct in Muskogean, either. The word obviously has a special status in Algonquian.) Depends on what word we're talking about. There's a 'squash' reconstruction in Muskogean, but it's not like the Siouan or Algonquian terms under discussion. Bob (I'll be in Oklahoma the next few days and may or may not have access to email.) From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 01:32:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:32:45 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 4:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: squash >>> If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to be agreed that the word for >>> 'squash' reconstructs phonologically throughout (eastern?) Algonquian >>> >> No, just plain 'Algonquian'. It's found throughout the family, from Micmac to >> Cree to Arapaho to Shawnee to Delaware and almost all points in between. The >> only decently-documented part of Algonquian where it's NOT found are the >> Southern New England languages (the languages of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, >> and Connecticut), which are a lexically innovative group in general. >> > Cheyenne and Blackfoot too? > Cheyenne, yes, don't happen to know about Blackfoot offhand. >> Also keep in mind that it means 'spoon' -- not 'squash' -- in every >> Algonquian language except Miami. >> > Wait, are we talking about squashes at all? Does this word not also mean > 'squash' in many or most Algonquian languages? Or is the 'squash' meaning > found only in Miami? > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. > I'm still a little puzzled over the background picture, though. Did the term > originally mean 'spoon' in Algonquian, and then get extended to 'squash' in > Miami, passing then to Dakotan and Chiwere-Winnebago? Or was it originally > 'squash', and shifted to 'spoon' only in all the northern Algonquian groups > that presumably did not grow squashes? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. As for the Siouans who borrowed the term, they could have either borrowed it from Miami directly, or, just as plausibly, borrowed it from someone else but made the same semantic shift in the word when they borrowed it. > Did Dakotans and Chiwere-Winnebagos learn squash cultivation from their > Algonquian neighbors? I have absolutely no idea. > Or did they originally have some other word, which was replaced, say, by the > word used by Algonquian wives who came into their midst? It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was a new concept. >> Well, in this regard, within proto-Algonquian, this word is totally >> reconstructible but cannot be segmented. The root is unrecognizable. That >> might speak to it being a loan into Algonquian EXTREMELY long ago. Or perhaps >> it simply shows an old root that dropped out of use everywhere except this >> noun. >> > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would have been geographically that far back. Dave From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 29 02:34:37 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:34:37 -0700 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from > silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the > archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Perhaps -- but it raises the vexing issue of why every known Algonquian language but one -- upwards of twenty languages that I could name -- all made the same semantic shift. I have no problem thinking that this word already meant 'spoon, especially made of a gourd' by the Proto-Algonquian level. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 03:33:36 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:33:36 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has > it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. > > However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it > appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? What does the wi:n part mean here? > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept > that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. > I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most > common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to > make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. >>From the historical perspective, that would be simplest, because it would relieve us of the need to tie Proto-Algonquian to squashes. The latter, if I recall correctly off the top of my head, are supposed to have been widely adopted as cultigens in eastern temperate North America about the middle or later part of the first millennium AD (somebody correct me if I'm wildly off here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if the 'squash' meaning is primary. >>From the pragmatic semantic perspective, however, it seems much simpler to jump from 'squash' to 'spoon' than from 'spoon' to 'squash'. To extend the meaning of a natural item to apply to a technical implement made from it is sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems shakier. If we didn't have to worry about squash cultivation being too recent, I think the simplest explanation for the pattern you have described would be that proto-Algonquians cultivated squashes and used them for spoons. The squash term was immediately extended to include the 'spoon' implement. Later, they spread widely, especially into northern lands where squashes could not be grown. They substituted other materials for making spoons, but kept the 'squash' term to designate the functional implement. At this stage, the Algonquians still spoke nearly the same language and were still talking to one another all across their territory. The universal 'spoon' meaning became primary, and suppressed the original 'squash' meaning even where squashes were still grown. In most dialects where squashes were topics of conversation, other terms were coined to designate 'squash', but in a few such as Miami and Menominee the original meaning was retained, at least in fossil constructions. In the Siouan languages I've looked at, the terms for 'spoon' are all over the map. Many are semantic extensions or compound constructions meaning either "buffalo horn" or "mussel shell". That is, the implement term is apparently based on a prior natural object term, not the other way around. > It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be > reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to > Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was > a new concept. I wouldn't expect to find a genuine Proto-Siouan word for 'squash', because I think that Proto-Siouan is considerably older than the widespread adoption of squash cultivation. However, the Dorsey-Swanton dictionaries of Biloxi and Ofo give /taN/ for 'pumpkin' or 'squash' in Biloxi, and /o^Ntha^N/ for 'pumpkin' in Ofo. In Osage and Omaha, the term is something like /wat(H)aN'/ (not sure about aspiration here). So we do seem to have a basic agreement between Biloxi and Ofo in Southeastern, and Dhegihan in MVS. I don't know how much farther these /t(H)aN/ terms extend. On a quick dictionary scan, I couldn't find any evidence of them in Dakotan. I wouldn't be surprised if they were borrowed into Dhegihan after it had diverged from other MVS languages. > > So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, > > whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. > > True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would > have been geographically that far back. It would be about as deep as Algonquian itself is, or deeper. But exactly how deep that is in years, and the geographical and chronological constraints placed on Algonquian by the technology indicated by the term, is the big question here. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 03:50:26 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:50:26 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. > Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. Thanks, Bob! Are gourds actually grown/used even by people in the sub-arctic? And do we have any handle on how far back in time would they have been used? Is there any reflex of *ko:re in Dhegihan? That ought to come out as *gu:dhe in Omaha, right? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Aug 29 04:12:45 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:12:45 -0700 Subject: squashes and spoons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> The etymon in question means 'spoon' in every Algonquian language that has >> it. Except for Miami. There it means 'squash, pumpkin'. >> >> However, it apparently can have the latter meaning occasionally when it >> appears as a final, as in Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ 'squash'. >> > By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? > So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? > No, what I mean is that Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is only found as part of derived nouns, with roots or 'initials' preceding it. In other words, Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is not an independent word. Menominee /E:meskwan/ 'spoon', however, is an independent word. (Incidentally, that /sk/~/hk/ correspondence within the 2 Menominee forms is irregular and unexplained.) > What does the wi:n part mean here? > Not sure what the /wi:n-/ part means; the primary meaning of Menominee /wi:n-/ as an initial (a root) is 'dirty', which doesn't seem to apply here. >> It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and simply kept >> that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, pumpkin'. >> I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the most >> common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami used to >> make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. >> > From the historical perspective, that would be simplest, because it would > relieve us of the need to tie Proto-Algonquian to squashes. The latter, if I > recall correctly off the top of my head, are supposed to have been widely > adopted as cultigens in eastern temperate North America about the middle or > later part of the first millennium AD (somebody correct me if I'm wildly off > here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if > the 'squash' meaning is primary. > Not really. That's too recent for Proto-Algonquian. I usually hear figures of 2,500-3,000 years BP for Proto-Algonquian, and most reconstructions have the language either in Canada or close to it. > From the pragmatic semantic perspective, however, it seems much simpler to > jump from 'squash' to 'spoon' than from 'spoon' to 'squash'. To extend the > meaning of a natural item to apply to a technical implement made from it is > sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems > shakier. > Not positive I agree, but I think that's trumped by two things; (a) like I said it's a tad troubling (to me, at least) that 20+ Algonquian languages all made the squash -> spoon shift, and only one (and a half) kept the old meaning; and two, as you point out, there's the problem that it's far from clear that the Proto-Algonquians would have known about gourds. Proto- Algonquians were probably too far north (certainly further north than Proto-Siouans) and way too early to know about gourds, but they would of course known about spoons. If the word meant 'spoon' originally, all one has to posit is that ONE language (two if you count the Menominee final) shifted the word for 'spoon' to the plant with which they made spoons, which doesn't strike ME as terribly implausible. To me the archaelogy takes precedence over a semantic shift that's thought to be implausible yet which only really took place in Miami and, partly, in Menominee. And the supposed implausibility of a shift of 'spoon' -> 'squash' is the most solid evidence I've seen so far for arguing that this word meant 'squash' at the PA level. > If we didn't have to worry about squash cultivation being too recent, > But we do. That's the problem. > I think the simplest explanation for the pattern you have described would be > that proto-Algonquians cultivated squashes and used them for spoons. > Why is that simpler than assuming that the Proto-Algonquians lived too far north for gourds but made spoons out of other things anyway? > The squash term was immediately extended to include the 'spoon' implement. > Later, they spread widely, especially into northern lands where squashes could > not be grown. > Except there's no reason to think Proto-Algonquians started out in a place where squashes could be grown. The northwest Plains is one place that's mentioned (Montana, around there), another is Ontario. > They substituted other materials for making spoons, but kept the 'squash' term > to designate the functional implement. At this stage, the Algonquians still > spoke nearly the same language and were still talking to one another all > across their territory. > Welll..... except there's not a lot of evidence to think that state of affairs ever obtained. It looks a lot more plausible that PA emerged from the Plateau region onto the northern Plains and essentially moved east, dropping languages as it went. There's no particular reason to think that, say, the Proto-Arapahoans and Proto-Eastern Algonquians were ever in contact. > The universal 'spoon' meaning became primary, and suppressed the original > 'squash' meaning even where squashes were still grown. In most dialects where > squashes were topics of conversation, other terms were coined to designate > 'squash', but in a few such as Miami and Menominee the original meaning was > retained, at least in fossil constructions. > But I don't think the time depth and geography will make this work. Or at least, they make this a MORE complex solution than just reconstructing it as 'spoon'. Which to my mind removes the motivation not to do so. > In the Siouan languages I've looked at, the terms for 'spoon' are all over the > map. Many are semantic extensions or compound constructions meaning either > "buffalo horn" or "mussel shell". That is, the implement term is apparently > based on a prior natural object term, not the other way around. > Well, as an anecdotal example from Illinois (a Miami dialect), the animate noun /eehsa/ means 'mussel', but its inanimate equivalent means 'spoon made of a shell'. (But that's not the normal Miami word for 'spoon'.) >> It's interesting to ask whether ANY Proto-Siouan word for 'squash' can be >> reconstructed on the basis of Siouan languages that weren't next to >> Algonquians -- like, say, Crow, Mandan, Biloxi, Tutelo. If not, maybe it was >> a new concept. >> > I wouldn't expect to find a genuine Proto-Siouan word for 'squash', because I > think that Proto-Siouan is considerably older than the widespread adoption of > squash cultivation. > And Proto-Algonquian is probably at least as old. (And considerably further from the area where they'd know about gourds.) >>> So there is nothing preventing it from being a loan into proto-Algonquian, >>> whenever that was. That's an important piece to know. >>> >> True, but that'd be at a *very* deep level, and who knows where they would >> have been geographically that far back. >> > It would be about as deep as Algonquian itself is, or deeper. But exactly how > deep that is in years, and the geographical and chronological constraints > placed on Algonquian by the technology indicated by the term, is the big > question here. > Does anyone have a guess for the time-depth of Proto-Siouan? Dave From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Aug 29 04:18:31 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:18:31 -0500 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from > > silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the > > archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. > Perhaps -- but it raises the vexing issue of why every known Algonquian > language but one -- upwards of twenty languages that I could name -- all > made the same semantic shift. I have no problem thinking that this word > already meant 'spoon, especially made of a gourd' by the Proto-Algonquian > level. That shouldn't be a problem if the shift takes place about the time of the divergence of Proto-Algonquian. The original meaning would have been 'gourd', but probably had the extended meaning of 'spoon' as well within the proto-language. Then the Algonquian people spread widely, allowing for dialects, but with a lot of residual flux and intercommunication. In the "koine" form of the language, the term became restricted to 'spoon', but in some marginal pockets, dialects retained the conservative meaning of 'gourd'. Miami and Menominee would have developed from such backwater dialects, while most other languages would have patterned their usage on that of the koine. And of course, if gourd use goes back much farther than squash cultivation, that removes the worry about having to time this event as recently as the mid first millennium AD. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 29 08:09:47 2006 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:09:47 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: <001f01c6cade$6142b530$0401a8c0@ullrichnet> Message-ID: Shouldn't these - different from wagmu - be nasalized in Lakota: pagmuN -> pagmuNpi (skein of yarn; anything twisted/rolled up by pressure, e.g. with the hand nagmuN - to twist itself (i.e. by inner force) as crisp/curled bark/leather etc. yugmuN - to twist with the hand, e.g. a string, tobacco (to roll a cigarette?) I think that nasalization in Lakota is not so stable, isn't it? Alfred Am 28.08.2006 um 22:13 schrieb Jan F. Ullrich: > Could Lakota wagmu 'squash' be related to the stem gmu 'twisted' ? It > occurs > with instrumentals pa-, na-, yu- : > > pagmu - to twist smth by pushing with the hand > nagmu - to twist of its own accord > yugmu - to twist smth in the hand > > > wa-gmu would then be 'something-twisted' . > > Jan From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 29 08:41:44 2006 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:41:44 +0200 Subject: squash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's no question that (the plant) 'squash' was before (the tool) 'spoon' (used as kind of cutlery). After people 1) having gotten familiar with that plant and 2) at some time using it as a tool (i.e. 'spoon'), it is quite 'natural' (most likely) that they had named the tool after the plant. IMVHO, it is very unlikely, though, that people not familiar with that plant but using spoon-like tools produced from other materials (say, bones, wood or what have you) will adopt a foreign word ('squash') for this tool after they had gotten familiar with that plant that had provided its name for it in another culture, or even - still not knowing the plant - just take the foreign word 'spoon' as a loan. Alfred Am 28.08.2006 um 23:42 schrieb David Costa: > It's simplest to assume it meant 'spoon' in Proto-Algonquian and > simply kept > that meaning everywhere except Miami, where it shifted to 'squash, > pumpkin'. > I assume this is simply because in some places and at some times the > most > common spoons were gourds. (Tho there's also evidence that the Miami > used to > make spoons out of shells.) It's an easy semantic jump to make. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Aug 29 19:47:20 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:47:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Cheyenne dictionary online Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Leman" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:54 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Cheyenne dictionary online >I now have the Cheyenne dictionary online: > > http://www11.asphost4free.com/cheyennedictionary/default.htm > > Comments are welcome. > > Wayne > ----- > Wayne Leman > Cheyenne website: http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:03:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:03:43 -0500 Subject: Attn Rory Message-ID: We were looking thru the Dorsey Kaw materials here in Kaw City this afternoon and I ran across a file slip from between 1882 and 1890 for Kaw labeled "gluba" 'all, whole'. Dorsey compared it to Omaha gdhuba. I had asked Mrs. Rowe about it but she didn't recognize it. Apparently somebody in the Kaw Nation did a century ago though. Since that time Kansa has simplified the gl clusters. B. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:10:30 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:10:30 -0500 Subject: squashes and spoons Message-ID: > Does anyone have a guess for the time-depth of Proto-Siouan? Hollow and Parks' glottochronology points to between 3000 and 4000 years not counting Catawba. Ted Grimm's was in that ballpark. But at this point I'd refer you to my article in the volume on the history of maize that I reffed. the other day in a note. It's about all these cultigens, time depth and contact. I don't have time to recapitulate any more of it here, but comments would be welcome. I used "vegeochronogy" and arrived at analogous dates. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:03:39 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: For a long time it was thought gourds originated in Meso America, but more recent discoveries place them in much of N. America as well. I don't know about the sub-arctic, but I wouldn't say proto-Algonquian was really sub-arctic. In any event anything that can be used as an implement was pretty widely traded. At the very least, gourds go back 4K years with squashes and pumpkins (which ARE from Central America) somewhat more recent. Incorporated and compounded constructions do tend to maintain conservative semantics, while their independent counterparts often undergo more semantic change. One of the standard examples is found in Benveniste's discussion of Indo-European terms for 'family', 'clan' and 'tribe'. The cognate sets in the different subgroups often vary quite a lot in meaning, but if you look at the compound terms for the patriarch who presided over each of the societal divisions, the meanings are much more uniform, and presumably represent the original meanings of the nouns. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 8/28/2006 10:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: squash > I think we want to be a little careful about reconstructing semantics from silverware. (a) the older meaning is 'gourd' -- squashes come later in the archaeological record. Gourds are used for dippers virtually everywhere. Proto-Siouan has a reconstructible term for 'gourd', namely *ko:re, but not 'squash'. (b) I think that most linguists would agree that the incorporated meanings, in Algonquian and elsewhere, tend to maintain the conservative semantics even better than the independent nouns and verbs. > Other "spoon" terms are typically reconstructible as 'shell' or 'horn'. Thanks, Bob! Are gourds actually grown/used even by people in the sub-arctic? And do we have any handle on how far back in time would they have been used? Is there any reflex of *ko:re in Dhegihan? That ought to come out as *gu:dhe in Omaha, right? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:20:39 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:20:39 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: > Shouldn't these - different from wagmu - be nasalized in Lakota: > I think that nasalization in Lakota is not so stable, isn't it? Following a nasal consonant there doesn't seem to be contrast between oral and nasal vowels in Lakota and most other Siouan languages. In Omaha and Ponca there are recent m's and n's from W and R, but Kathy Shea has gotten vowel nasalization even in these cases. So, you're right, not so stable. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 29 22:15:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:15:35 -0500 Subject: squash Message-ID: Yes, when something innovative comes along the term can spread like wildfire. The 'firewater' compound for distilled spirits is a useful example. It's recent, but it's extremely widespread in both Algonquian and Siouan. There's probably no need to point to neologisms in European languages. B. > Miami and Menominee would have developed from such backwater dialects, while most other languages would have patterned their usage on that of the koine. And of course, if gourd use goes back much farther than squash cultivation, that removes the worry about having to time this event as recently as the mid first millennium AD. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Aug 30 01:22:14 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:22:14 -0500 Subject: squashes and spoons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, > > By "final", you mean that it appears as the head or base noun of a compound? > > So Menominee /wi:nE:mEhkwan/ means that a 'squash' is a wi:n type of spoon? > > No, what I mean is that Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is only found as part of > derived nouns, with roots or 'initials' preceding it. In other words, > Menominee /-E:mEhkwan/ is not an independent word. Menominee /E:meskwan/ > 'spoon', however, is an independent word. Does that contradict what I said? Independent or not, aren't /wi:n-/ and /-E:mEhkwan/ separate morphemes in combination, with the latter acting as the "head" noun of the compound? > Not sure what the /wi:n-/ part means; the primary meaning of Menominee > /wi:n-/ as an initial (a root) is 'dirty', which doesn't seem to apply here. Could it have meant 'dirty gourd', as the plant on the ground, in contrast with a (clean) gourd, a spoon? >> here!), which would tend to bring Proto-Algonquian down to about that time if >> the 'squash' meaning is primary. > > Not really. That's too recent for Proto-Algonquian. I usually hear figures > of 2,500-3,000 years BP for Proto-Algonquian, and most reconstructions have > the language either in Canada or close to it. Exactly my problem with squashes! > > sensible. Extending an implement term to refer to the natural item seems > > shakier. > > Not positive I agree, but I think that's trumped by two things; (a) like I > said it's a tad troubling (to me, at least) that 20+ Algonquian languages > all made the squash -> spoon shift, and only one (and a half) kept the old > meaning; and two, as you point out, there's the problem that it's far from > clear that the Proto-Algonquians would have known about gourds. Proto- > Algonquians were probably too far north (certainly further north than > Proto-Siouans) and way too early to know about gourds, but they would of > course known about spoons. If the word meant 'spoon' originally, all one has > to posit is that ONE language (two if you count the Menominee final) shifted > the word for 'spoon' to the plant with which they made spoons, which doesn't > strike ME as terribly implausible. Fair enough. But for the moment, I'd like to keep on the table my proposal that the base word was 'gourd' and the derived form was 'spoon', both used at the same time within the proto-language. As the language spread, the 'spoon' meaning became exclusive in most, but not all, of the resulting dialects. I think this model would fit comfortably with 20+ languages using the 'spoon' form and only 2 showing evidence of the 'gourd' form, while still letting the 'gourd' meaning be primary. But if we restrict our picture of where the proto-language was and how it spread, as you do below, we might have to reject this model. > Except there's no reason to think Proto-Algonquians started out in a place > where squashes could be grown. The northwest Plains is one place that's > mentioned (Montana, around there), another is Ontario. ... > Welll..... except there's not a lot of evidence to think that state of > affairs ever obtained. It looks a lot more plausible that PA emerged from > the Plateau region onto the northern Plains and essentially moved east, > dropping languages as it went. There's no particular reason to think that, > say, the Proto-Arapahoans and Proto-Eastern Algonquians were ever in > contact. Great! This is looking like a big picture model we could work with! So to restate and elaborate the model(s) you are thinking from: Proto-Algonquian was located in the Plateau region, roughly the northern Rockies around western Montana about 1000 BC. From here, it moved onto the northern Plains along roughly the border between the U.S. and Canada, and headed west to the Great Lakes. Along the way, several groups branched off and stayed on the Plains: the Blackfoot; the Arapaho; and the Cheyenne. The group that made it to the Great Lakes was Proto-Eastern Algonquian. That one then spread widely around the Great Lakes area, north into the eastern Canadian subarctic, east to the Atlantic coast, and south into much of the deciduous forest and prairie of the northeastern and central U.S. By this model, there are two problem with the 'gourd' -> 'spoon' theory. 1. Could gourds have been used so far north as the Plateau homeland that early? 2. Even if gourds were used in the Plateau region by 1000 BC, the dual-meaning/dialect/koine hypothesis that I proposed clashes with the tree implicit in this model. Conservative dialects ought to be the ones closer to the homeland, such as Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne; the koine ought to be spoken by the ones who carried the movement farthest, the Eastern Algonquians. But the two examples we have of languages using the word with the 'squash' meaning, Miami and Menominee, are both Eastern Algonquians. Since they have travelled far and are not genetically particularly close to the center of the tree, their special usage must be derived as compared with all the other Algonquians which are in agreement. Is that a fair statement of your position? I realize I'm simplifying and adding a few details that you didn't actually state. I think one of the arguments for the Plateau theory of Algonquian origin is that there are some other languages that are thought to be related to Algonquian in that region. Also that Blackfoot is thought to be the most divergent Algonquian language, with Cheyenne and Arapaho next most divergent, both from each other and from all the others, which are lumped as Eastern. Is this correct? You also mention Ontario as another possibility for the homeland. That seems to be roughly equivalent to saying northwestern Great Lakes, and if it is Proto-Algonquian rather than Proto-Eastern Algonquian we are talking about here, that would change the model entirely. In that case, Algonquian would have been starting out not far from where we later find the Menominee. Then Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne could have been particular offshoots of the koine which separately moved west onto the Plains, and their distinction would be due to early and continued isolation rather than to diverging as dialects before Menominee and Miami. That would leave the dual-meaning/dialect/koine hypothesis as a possibility, provided gourds work for that region in time. Do we have any good arguments for Ontario/Great Lakes as a homeland? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 30 01:56:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:56:57 -0500 Subject: Attn Rory Message-ID: Well, Dorsey has quite a bit of variability recorded in his Kaw and Osage notes. It's possible globa and loba could have existed side by side just as glo and lo both meaning 'thunder' occur in his dictionary MS. I also noticed typing my notebooks today that kki(y)ado'ba, as given to me by Mrs. Rowe, would have 3rd syllable accent -- something that shouldn't be possible. So maybe it's two phonological words: kia and doba. Numerals are prone to have this pattern if you write the compound ones as single words. Numbers in the teens, etc. have 3rd or 4th syll. accent if you write them alimi'xci, alinoNba', aliya'abliN, etc. ________________________________ From: Rory M Larson [mailto:rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Tue 8/29/2006 6:10 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Attn Rory Cool! Thanks for sharing that! Of course, that probably wouldn't have anything to do with the original -loba suffix that started the thread, since that would have been before the simplification, right? Rory Inactive hide details for "Rankin, Robert L" "Rankin, Robert L" "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/29/2006 05:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Attn Rory We were looking thru the Dorsey Kaw materials here in Kaw City this afternoon and I ran across a file slip from between 1882 and 1890 for Kaw labeled "gluba" 'all, whole'. Dorsey compared it to Omaha gdhuba. I had asked Mrs. Rowe about it but she didn't recognize it. Apparently somebody in the Kaw Nation did a century ago though. Since that time Kansa has simplified the gl clusters. B. [attachment "winmail.dat" deleted by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: graycol.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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