From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Wed Jan 11 13:00:26 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:00:26 +0000
Subject: a Caddoan question
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.130026.0000.>

Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005.  Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 11 15:55:34 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:55:34 -0800
Subject: a Caddoan question
In-Reply-To: <s3c50189.097@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.075534.0800.>

Anthony,
  The University of Nebraska Press website does not list the book title in question. However, the website for the American Indian Studies Research Institute/Indiana University, has listed "The Skiri Pawnee Multimedia Dictionary for Windows" (CD-ROM) (copyright 2005) with an accompanying Pawnee Alphabet Book written by Douglas Parks.
   
  Go to:  http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/pawnee/index.shtml
   
  Hope that helps.
  Jonathan

Anthony Grant <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:
  Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005. Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
<<<>>>

  



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From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Wed Jan 11 17:13:35 2006
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:13:35 -0800
Subject: a Caddoan question
In-Reply-To: <s3c50189.097@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.091335.0800.>

Anthony,

No, it isn't out yet. Still in the works. I expect that it will appear 
sometime in 2006, if all goes well.

Wally

--On Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:00 PM +0000 Anthony Grant 
<Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:

> Folks:
>
> Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of
> Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a
> reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of
> Nebraska Press in 2005.  Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if
> it's out yet?
>
> Anthony
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for
> the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  Any views or opinions
> presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent
> those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it
> and all copies of it.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use,
> disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are
> not the intended recipient.
>
> The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to
> identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor
> content.  However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access
> business communications during staff absence.
>
> Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments
> are virus free.  However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to
> ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge
> Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
> <<<<EdgeHill>>>>
>


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Wed Jan 11 17:25:31 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:25:31 +0000
Subject: a Caddoan question
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.172531.0000.>

Thanks, Jonatahn - the link is really handy! 

>>> okibjonathan at yahoo.com 01/11/06 3:55 pm >>>
Anthony,
  The University of Nebraska Press website does not list the book title in question. However, the website for the American Indian Studies Research Institute/Indiana University, has listed "The Skiri Pawnee Multimedia Dictionary for Windows" (CD-ROM) (copyright 2005) with an accompanying Pawnee Alphabet Book written by Douglas Parks.
   
  Go to:  http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/pawnee/index.shtml 
   
  Hope that helps.
  Jonathan

Anthony Grant <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:
  Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005. Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
<<<>>>

  



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Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
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This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content.  However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

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<<<<EdgeHill>>>>


From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Sat Jan 14 21:06:32 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:06:32 -0600
Subject: Fw: occurrence of phonemes in texts of world languages
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JAN.2006.150632.0600.>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Yuri Tambovtsev 
To: goodtracks at peoplepc.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 7:55 AM
Subject: occurrence of phonemes in texts of world languages


Dear Jim, I compute the frequency of occurrence of 
phonemes in world languages. The frequency of occurrence is computed on the material of texts and dictionaries. I feed a text in my computer and then I compute how many times this or that sound occurs. I have computed some Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Paleo-Asiatic, Australian aboriginal, Polinesian, etc.languages.  Also some American Indian languages: Totonac, Nahuatl, 
Sayula populuca, Pocomchi, Capanahua, and 20 more American Indian languages. What Amerrican Indian or any other language do you  study? Were the frequencies of its phonemes in texts computed? Could we compute some of the texts in your language? I can do it if you send me a text on paper or in the electronic form, but as a simple -txt or -doc file. 
After that it is interesting to compare, for instance, the 
occurrence of labial consonants in Totonac (7.38%) and 
Pocomchi (10.83%). Or Nahuatl (11.73%) and Sayula populuca (12.34%). Or Guarani (12.92%) and Sweet Grass Cree (15.15%).Etc, etc. The values can also show the typology and the closeness. If you know some linguist who may be intestested in co-operating with me on the problem, then please, forward 
my message to this scholar with my new correct address 
yutamb at mail.ru Do not send me web-sites since my computer system cannot open web-sites. I cannot open attachments as well, only normal messages, like this one. Looking forward to hearing from you soon to yutamb at mail.ru 
Yours sincerely Yuri Tambovtsev, Novosibirsk Pedagog. 
University, Novosibirsk, Russia 
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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 17 22:41:01 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:41:01 -0800
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.144101.0800.>

I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
   
  While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
   
  wanji'ni = none
  takuni = nothing
   
  ...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
   
  Just wondering,
  Jonathan


Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































		
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 02:21:56 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:21:56 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.202156.0600.>

> I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept
of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.

> While I know of the Lakota terms such as...

> wanji'ni = none
> takuni = nothing

> ...is this the same as "0" (zero)?

> Just wondering,
> Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I've checked Buechel, and Edward Starr's "Dictionary of Modern Lakota", and
neither one seems to have it.  Williamson gives a couple of 'zero' terms
for Dakota, though:

  osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)

  ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)

Zero is a pretty abstract mathematical concept.  I don't think we had it
either until it was invented in India and brought to Europe by the Arabs in
the Middle Ages.  If any of the native languages north of Mexico have it,
it would probably have been coined recently to match the Euro-American
term.

Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.

There are still languages today whose entire mathematical system consists
of 1, 2, and many.  I think most of these are in Australia, but at least
one language in the Amazon, PirahaN, is at about the same level.  Daniel
Everett, who has studied them for almost thirty years, claims that even
this is an exaggeration.  "1" is their word for 'small', "2" is their word
for 'large', and "many" is their word 'cause to come together', used for
anything composed of discrete elements.  In fact, he claims, their language
is so devoid of countable quantification that they do not even have terms
for 'all', 'many', 'most', 'few', 'each', or 'every'!

It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
likely reflect this.

Best,
Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 04:09:44 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:09:44 -0600
Subject: Mandan
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.220944.0600.>

Alright, since John has removed OP from the list of polite topics for this
forum, I've decided to learn Mandan instead.  :)  I'm looking at an old
article by Edward Kennard in the International Journal of American
Linguistics, Volume 9, Number 1, called "Mandan Grammar".  I've found some
points of interest to me, and I wonder if the comparativists would care to
comment on my tenuous understandings, presented below.

1. The stop series is reduced to simple p, t, k, and ?.  All distinctions
based on pre- or post-aspiration or glottalization have merged together for
p, t, and k.  The resulting sounds are voiceless and somewhat aspirated.

2. The fricatives s, s^, x, and h are all voiceless.  If there was ever a
separate z, z^, g^ series, these have merged with the voiceless forms.

3. There are two very similar phonemes which occur in three phonetic forms.
Both are r in intervocalic position unless the preceding consonant is a
nasal, in which case both are n.  The two phonemes are distinct only in
initial position, where one is n and the other is a nasal d, like the sound
at the end of English "hand".  I assume that one of these is Siouan *r and
the other is Siouan *y.  But surprisingly, the 'hand' instrumental prefix
is du-, while the 'mouth' instrumental is na-, which cuts across what I am
familiar with in MVS, such as Dakotan yu-, ya-, and OP dhi-, dha-, which I
had thought went back to Siouan *ru-, *ra-.  Can anyone explain what is
going on here?  And which is which with Mandan d and n, if that's even the
correct question?

4. The only other Mandan consonants are w and m.  I don't know if either of
these is the result of multiple Siouan phonemes collapsing together.

5. Mandan has 10 vowels, 7 oral and 3 nasal:  a, E, e, i, u, o, A, and aN,
iN, uN.  The word for 'buffalo' is ptiN, which I suppose is cognate with
MVS *pte.  Are there any known regular vowel shifts between Mandan and MVS?

6. The causative suffix in Mandan is -hErE, or perhaps we should say -h.rE,
where the period indicates a weak vowel that regularly adopts the value of
the one following it.  Thus, if -hErE is raised to /a/ grade ablaut, it
becomes -hara.  This sort of thing seems to happen commonly in Winnebago
where we have what would be a consonant cluster in Dakotan or Dhegihan.  At
any rate, the h preceding the r seems to answer my long-standing puzzlement
over why the causative alone in Lakhota and OP does not do the bl-, bdh-
thing when inflected for person.

7. Mandan uses two augments for plurality: nit for 2nd person and kErE for
3rd person.  Of these, nit causes preceding -E to ablaut to -a, but kErE
does not.  Neither of these looks much like MVS *pi, or like ire, i, or E
either.

8. The 'we' affixed pronoun is nu (nuN ?), as Bob pointed out recently.

9. The more assertive demand particles are gendered in their usage, as in
other Siouan languages.  Unlike other Siouan languages, however, the gender
is according to the person addressed, rather than according to the speaker!

10. In comparing Mandan with MVS languages that I am more familiar with, I
am amazed at the disparity between different grammatical systems in their
degree of similarity.  Some systems, such as subject pronouns, instrumental
prefixes, locative prefixes, reflexives, the causative, the come, go and
arrive verbs, the conjunction ki and the postposition -ta seem to be almost
identical in form and meaning; while other systems, such as demand
particles, augments, positionals, question words, and all but a handful of
the lexical vocabulary is entirely different.  Do we have a good handle on
where Mandan fits in the Siouan family tree?  I've heard Mandan related
variously with Crow-Hidatsa, Southeastern, and Winnebago.  I'm convinced by
now that it's not MVS, so the last possibility can probably be scratched,
but beyond that I'm not sure.  (I've been assuming that Southeastern and
MVS are closer to each other than either is to Crow-Hidatsa.  Is that
generally accepted?)

Enough ruminations for tonight.  If anybody has any insights, I'd be
delighted to hear them!

Rory


From mckay020 at umn.edu  Wed Jan 18 04:22:03 2006
From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:22:03 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.222203.0600.>

Rory M Larson wrote:

>>I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept
>>    
>>
>of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
>terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
>
>  
>
>>While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>wanji'ni = none
>>takuni = nothing
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>Just wondering,
>>Jonathan
>>    
>>
>
>Hi Jonathan,
>
>I've checked Buechel, and Edward Starr's "Dictionary of Modern Lakota", and
>neither one seems to have it.  Williamson gives a couple of 'zero' terms
>for Dakota, though:
>
>  osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)
>
>  ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)
>
>Zero is a pretty abstract mathematical concept.  I don't think we had it
>either until it was invented in India and brought to Europe by the Arabs in
>the Middle Ages.  If any of the native languages north of Mexico have it,
>it would probably have been coined recently to match the Euro-American
>term.
>
>Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
>fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
>that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
>pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
>counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
>and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
>7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
>few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
>OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.
>
>There are still languages today whose entire mathematical system consists
>of 1, 2, and many.  I think most of these are in Australia, but at least
>one language in the Amazon, PirahaN, is at about the same level.  Daniel
>Everett, who has studied them for almost thirty years, claims that even
>this is an exaggeration.  "1" is their word for 'small', "2" is their word
>for 'large', and "many" is their word 'cause to come together', used for
>anything composed of discrete elements.  In fact, he claims, their language
>is so devoid of countable quantification that they do not even have terms
>for 'all', 'many', 'most', 'few', 'each', or 'every'!
>
>It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
>parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
>the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
>administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
>arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
>Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
>likely reflect this.
>
>Best,
>Rory
>
>  
>
Jonathan.

We Dakota (Bdewakantunwan) say "takuda sni" or "nothing" for zero.  I'm 
not sure about "taku sni."  I've never used it or heard it used like 
that.  That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Have you thought about 
asking a Titunwan?

-Cantemaza de miye do.
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 05:47:51 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:47:51 -0700
Subject: Mandan
In-Reply-To: <OF0A6485DA.46ABD670-ON862570FA.000D2B56-862570FA.0015ED9F@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.224751.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> Alright, since John has removed OP from the list of polite topics for this
> forum, I've decided to learn Mandan instead.  :)

No, no!  Surely nothing I said couldn't be construed to mean that!? I
think I may have said something left-handed about my tendency to done on
about it.  Still, it is the world's most interesting language, and I
intend to continue talking about it.

> 1. The stop series is reduced to simple p, t, k, and ?.  All distinctions
> based on pre- or post-aspiration or glottalization have merged together for
> p, t, and k.  The resulting sounds are voiceless and somewhat aspirated.

In fact, I think Richard Carter had noticed a few aspirates, though they
were rare, and the historical ejectives in some cases seem to appear as
root-final glottal stops:  PMV *C?V : Ma CV(?) where (?) means a glottal
that comes and goes depending on context.

Aspirates and nonaspirates about equally common in Teton or Santee Dakotan
- where is Yuri Tambovstov when I need him - and compare to the tense vs.
lax opposition in Dhegiha or (more or less) voiceless vs. voiced
oppositions in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago.  On the other hand, ejectives are
rare everywhere in Mississippi Valley, and unattested outside of it, as
far as I can recollect, apart from those Mandan traces.  And, in a similar
way true aspirates are pretty rare in Dhegiha, and correspond to some
odd-ball things here and there elsewhere, though mostly they merge with
either the aspirates or the non-aspirates.

Rare aspirates do occur elsewhere.  I don't recall his examples, but
Carter found them in Mandan and I believe Wes Jones pointed out a few in
Hidatsa, too.  In the causative, I think, but also in other places.  In
these languages, when aspirates have been noticed, they have been treated
as clusters.  I think this is the sensible approach, too.

It seems more or less certain that aspirates contrasted with non-aspirates
in Southeastern or Ohio Valley Siouan, too.  But they are only
indifferently recorded.  Dorsey writes dots under some of the
non-aspirates in Biloxi.

Incidentally, Mandan also has root final -h, and though it would be nice
if that corresponded to aspirates (or preaspirates) elsewhere, it seems
that it doesn't, or only very irregularly.  In fact, the -h things show up
here and there elsewhere, e.g., in Omaha haN*h*e, Dakota haN*h*epi 'night
time', for example, and in the arbitrary alternation between *-ka and
-*hka in noun and verb extensions.

The evanescent final ?, h, and also r and sometimes r? in Mandan are
described in Hollow's dissertation.  Carter pointed out to the CSD
committee that Biloxi seems to have lots of final d's matching the Mandan
r's, at least as a phenomenon.  When followed by *e this produces -di.

Comparative Siouanists argue a lot about whether any or all of these extra
bits - h, ?, r, etc. - are epenthetic.  Some hold that they are organic.
If anyone is left standing after one of these arguments, they move on to
the following vowel.  There is no consensus, but then the people
interested number about four, and some or all of them have changed their
views from time to time.

> 2. The fricatives s, s^, x, and h are all voiceless.  If there was ever a
> separate z, z^, g^ series, these have merged with the voiceless forms.

There is an artilce in IJAL c. 1970 by G. H. Matthews addressing this
interesting problem.

> 3. There are two very similar phonemes which occur in three phonetic forms.
> Both are r in intervocalic position unless the preceding consonant is a
> nasal, in which case both are n.  The two phonemes are distinct only in
> initial position, where one is n and the other is a nasal d, like the sound
> at the end of English "hand".  I assume that one of these is Siouan *r and
> the other is Siouan *y.  But surprisingly, the 'hand' instrumental prefix
> is du-, while the 'mouth' instrumental is na-, which cuts across what I am
> familiar with in MVS, such as Dakotan yu-, ya-, and OP dhi-, dha-, which I
> had thought went back to Siouan *ru-, *ra-.  Can anyone explain what is
> going on here?  And which is which with Mandan d and n, if that's even the
> correct question?

All I can remember is that Hollow reduced them to just r.  And Dick Carter
suggested it might be more complex than that, but not in print, even
unpublished print.

> 4. The only other Mandan consonants are w and m.  I don't know if either of
> these is the result of multiple Siouan phonemes collapsing together.

Hollow concluded that m and n are allophones of w and r before nasal
vowels.  Nasality spreads forward through things like w, r, and h, too.
Terry Kaufman has suggested that you can do pretty much the same thing
with Winnebago and Tutelo.  In fact, you can go far with the idea in most
Siouan languages, except Crow and Hidatsa where in the modern languages
lack nasal vowels and m and n are allophones of w and r (or d/l), but
conditioned by things like the beginning of the word or clustering.
However, Randy has show that early Crow word lists tend to have m and n in
roots that are nasalized in other Siouan languages, suggesting that the
lost of nasality is fairly recent.

> 5. Mandan has 10 vowels, 7 oral and 3 nasal:  a, E, e, i, u, o, A, and aN,
> iN, uN.  The word for 'buffalo' is ptiN, which I suppose is cognate with
> MVS *pte.  Are there any known regular vowel shifts between Mandan and MVS?

I think the conclusion in Hollow is that it's actually aeiou aN iN uN.
But there is probably also vowel length and length plus some other
environmental conditioning accounts for some allophony.  For a good time
compare the Winnebago vowels in Lipkind or the Omaha-Ponca vowels in
Dorsey with the modern lists.   I guess OP with length is post-modern OP?

> 6. The causative suffix in Mandan is -hErE, or perhaps we should say -h.rE,
> where the period indicates a weak vowel that regularly adopts the value of
> the one following it.  Thus, if -hErE is raised to /a/ grade ablaut, it
> becomes -hara.  This sort of thing seems to happen commonly in Winnebago
> where we have what would be a consonant cluster in Dakotan or Dhegihan.

Mandan and Crow and Hidatsa and Tutelo, too, I believe all show something
like "Dorsey's Law" in Winnebago.  The Crow and Hidatsa version involves
some collapsing of the vowels inside the cluster.

> At any rate, the h preceding the r seems to answer my long-standing
> puzzlement over why the causative alone in Lakhota and OP does not do
> the bl-, bdh- thing when inflected for person.

I agree.  I think that comparing the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Biloxi
causatives fully explains the rather
arbitrary situations in MVS somewhat along these following lines:  the
PS causative consisted of the main verb followed by subordinating marker
*hi followed by a causative verb *E (*a ~ *e).  The causative verb
acquires an epenthetic *y when preceded by *hi.  So the original paradigm
was something like:

A1 VERB=hi-wa-e
A2 VERB=hi-ya-e
A3 VERB=hi-ye

In most languages *y and *r merge, and in Mississippi Valley as a whole
intervocalic *y becomes *r.  So, *hiyE > *hirE most places.  Sometimes it
is treated as *hErE.  This *hire ~ *hErE is usually treated as a
prefixing stem rather than an infixing one,
but in some cases not.  Infixing forms occur in Hidatsa, I think, and
Biloxi.  I can't remember for Mandan.  Also, for example, Winnebago has:

A1  waa    < (hi)-wa-e
A2  raa    < (hi)-ya-e
A3  hi(i)  < hi(-ye)

The *hi is lost in A1 and A2, and the *re is lost in A3 while *e is merged
with the pronoun in A1 and A2.

The datives are mostly formed by adding *k- to *hire, hence Da *khiyA, OP
*khidhE, Os *kshidhe, and also Winnebago -gigi which is probably from
something liek *ki-k-hi, with an extra *ki added.  And *kh > g in
Winnebago.

> 7. Mandan uses two augments for plurality: nit for 2nd person and kErE for
> 3rd person.  Of these, nit causes preceding -E to ablaut to -a, but kErE
> does not.  Neither of these looks much like MVS *pi, or like ire, i, or E
> either.

However -kErE is usually considered to be a cognate of -ire and the
similar forms in IO and Tutelo.

That nit (Hollow's riNt) is a bit of a puzzle, though.  I wonder if it
might not be an auxiliary.

Incidentally, while the Mandan future looks a lot like the Mississippi
Valley one, Hidatsa and Crow form the future with an auxiliary, which, on
the whole, looks a lot like a remnant of Dhegiha's obligatory miNkHe,
s^niNkHe, etc., auxiliary after the future in -ttE- < *-ktE-.

> 8. The 'we' affixed pronoun is nu (nuN ?), as Bob pointed out recently.

A very complex subject.

> 9. The more assertive demand particles are gendered in their usage, as in
> other Siouan languages.  Unlike other Siouan languages, however, the gender
> is according to the person addressed, rather than according to the speaker!

This seems to happens sometimes, too, in Biloxi, and - I'll have to check
- the vocative of endearment in Omaha-Ponca varies with the sex of the
addressee.  I'm thinking about dhaN/dhe after truncated forms like
siz^iNxti < nisi z^iNga=xti 'very little offspring' or saNz^iN < saNga
z^iNga 'little younger brother' or s^pa < ttu's^pa 'grandchild'.  I've
never seen these vocatives elsewhere, but Kaw substitutes saNz^iN for
saNga for one of the sexes' little brothers, so we know that the
diminutive truncation was formerly more widespread.

I think there are some cases of dhaN/dhe with non-diminutives.

> 10. In comparing Mandan with MVS languages that I am more familiar with, I
> am amazed at the disparity between different grammatical systems in their
> degree of similarity.  Some systems, such as subject pronouns, instrumental
> prefixes, locative prefixes, reflexives, the causative, the come, go and
> arrive verbs, the conjunction ki and the postposition -ta seem to be almost
> identical in form and meaning; while other systems, such as demand
> particles, augments, positionals, question words, and all but a handful of
> the lexical vocabulary is entirely different.

While I remember seeing comparisons of these particles before, and I've
looked at them briefly, it would be interesting to hear more about your
feelings wrt these!

A lot of the unfamiliar vocabulary shows up in Crow-Hidatsa, but not all
of it.  I've always thought it might be fun to compare it with the
unfamiliar Algonquian vocabulary in Blackfoot or, at any rate, with
non-Siouan languages of the area.

Features that Mandan shares with Crow-Hidatsa include the *aku- and *aru-
prefixes and forming the dative in a serial verb construction with *k?u
'give'.  But I think on the whole that Mandan is, if not a Mississippi
Valley language then at least a parallel branch with MVS something like
"Central Siouan."  However, there is such heavy influence from
Crow-Hidatsa that it's hard to tell which.

> Do we have a good handle on where Mandan fits in the Siouan family tree?
> I've heard Mandan related variously with Crow-Hidatsa, Southeastern, and
> Winnebago.

While Crow-Hidatsa has some features like Southeastern, e.g., the verbs of
motion, or the *raka- form of the striking instrumental, I think most of
these turn out to be due to MVS innovations.  Mandan doesn't really have
much in common with Winnebago but Dorsey's Law, and IO, which is very very
similar to Winnebago, lacks that, too.  Mandan does seem to have features
in common with MVS and Crow-Hidatsa.  Among the Southeastern languages
Tutelo is especially similar to MVS.

> I'm convinced by now that it's not MVS, so the last possibility can
> probably be scratched, but beyond that I'm not sure.  (I've been
> assuming that Southeastern and MVS are closer to each other than either
> is to Crow-Hidatsa.  Is that generally accepted?)

Not really.  I think it's just that we know rather little about
Southeastern, which is rather diverse, internally, and we know a lot about
MVS which has a lot of shared innovations and a rather similar set of
retentions.  MVS and CH are clear subgroups.  People tend to accept
Biloxi-Ofo, too.  But the positions of Mandan and Tutelo are somewhat
problematic.  Both share elements with both MVS and their "neighbors" (if
Arkansas and Mississippi can be called neighbors of Virginia).

The waves of arguments about subgrouping, apart from the major
reconstructions, include papers by Voegelin, Rood, Carter and Oliverio &
Rankin.  I anticipate continued disturbances along that frontier.

> Enough ruminations for tonight.  If anybody has any insights, I'd be
> delighted to hear them!

Very interesting indeed!  It's especially neat the way your attention is
drawn to much the same things that I've noticed and David and Bob and Dick
and Wes before that, and Hu Matthews and Terry Kaufman before that.  And
you come up with the same conclusions (or pairs of possible conclusions)
from them.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 06:05:08 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:05:08 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.230508.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
> I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric
> concept of "0" (zero).

I tend to agree with Rory - 'zero' or at least the combination of the
concept of nothingness as a number and as a mechanism in place-notation
for writing numerals is a rather rare and recent thing.  My desk copy of
Webster's traces the familiar European forms to Mediaeval Latin zephirum,
from Arabic <s.>ifr 'empty, cipher, zero'.   The word cipher comes from
the same source.  Zero is one of those useful things that catches on like
wildfire when introduced, but doesn't go back very far anywhere.  It's not
a natural counting number and in quantifying it is not distinct from
'none' or 'nothing' until it is attached to place notation.  It doesn't
seem to be a number until it's a numeral, so to speak.

I wonder if zero arose from writing down the state of various sorts of
abacusses?  Abacusses are naturally associated with place notation, and
zero would be a way of writing down a "place" with nothing in it.  If you
use a series of hollows with counters in them, then zero might even be the
graphical representation of an empty hollow.  With beads on a wire it's a
bit harder to see a graphical connection.

There is a book on Native American Mathematics by Michael Closs (U of
Texas, 1996).


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 06:34:13 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:34:13 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.233413.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
> fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
> that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
> pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
> counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
> and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
> 7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
> few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
> OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.

And 12, I think.

> It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
> parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
> the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
> administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
> arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
> Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
> likely reflect this.

I agree.  I think there are several books on early Mesopotamian
mathematics and accounting.  I think the accounting aspects are missing
for the state-organized parts of the Americas, perhaps due to choice of
medium, but the astronomical aspects are available.  Agriculture and
astronomical observations and more integrated states seem to lead pretty
immediately to mathematics everywhere.

However, where we have information or reconstructions it looks it doesn't
take much for numbering up into the hundred and thousands to break out.

My suspicion is that Siouan counting isn't reconstructable above five
(except for ten) because numerals are much more variable over time than
Indo-Europeanists have traditionally believed.  Siouan and its neighbors
reflect a certain amount of borrowing of numerals, and also of descriptive
terms alternating with more opaque terms.  I suspect Proto-Siouan speakers
could count as well as historical Siouan speakers, but time has been
harder on the evidence for "higher numerals."  I think the higher numerals
are just more likely to change.

However, I agree that numeration systems show certain natural states and
that simpler states were common until recently.  I suspect that numeral
systems were fairly sophisticated in Eastern North America with the
beginning of widespread trading networks and horticulture.

I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts.  Since sets were
usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow.  On
the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
use of bundles of sticks to represent honors.  Men are reported to have
recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks.  The
handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept?  How widespread is 'box' in this sense?  I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.


From jfu at centrum.cz  Wed Jan 18 08:04:35 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:04:35 +0100
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.090435.0100.>

Dear Jonathan

 

I agree with Rory and John that there most likely isn't a term specifically
for "zero" in Lakota.

I tried eliciting "zero" with native speakers on several occasions. The
reply always involved wanjini or takuni (tagni). 

When exchanging phone numbers in Lakota I encountered tagni in most cases.

 

Best

 

Jan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:41 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero


I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept of
"0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric terms
beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
 
While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
 
wanji'ni = none
takuni = nothing
 
...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
 
Just wondering,
Jonathan


Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 



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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Wed Jan 18 09:08:04 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:08:04 +0100
Subject: concept of zero
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.100804.0100.>

 >  I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric 
concept
of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed. <<


I really would have wondered had I retrieved the concept of zero in 
Native American languages (at least of northern America). Even the great 
and highly sophisticated Chinese culture never ever knew it, be it in 
mathematical terms or display of numbers. Their word expressing 'zero', 
though, is quite interesting ;-)

If you like to, you might have a look at my pages (Quileute School Project):

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/school/DIGITS.HTML

Just my two cents

Alfred


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 18 18:23:51 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:23:51 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601172305160.11891@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.102351.0800.>



Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.
   
  John,
  If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
   
  "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

Hope it helps,
  Jonathan




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































		
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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 18:49:26 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:26 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.104926.0800.>

In regards to the concept of a word for 'box' meaning 'thousand', I can 
report that in Miami-Illinois, an old way to say 'a thousand' is
mihtekolaakani, which was apparently a word for 'wooden box' or 'wooden
trunk'.

So I would say this metaphor must be something that dates to the early
contact period, presumably through trade, and that it spread among groups
speaking unrelated languages. I don't happen to know what exact wooden boxes
are being referenced here, though. Some standard thing the whites gave to
the tribes in trade? Someone must know that.

However, I wouldn't say that 'thousand' was a new concept, since there is
also a more common native construction for that, mataathswaahkwe 'one
thousand', literally 'ten hundreds' (mataathsw- = 'ten', -aahkwe =
'hundred'). (The exact same construction is also seen in Fox and Ojibwe.)

David


Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.
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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Wed Jan 18 19:01:18 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:01:18 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.130118.0600.>

IOM "thousand" is also -koge- "box".  The elders explained that the box referred to the Army box of 1000 rounds of ammunition.
It seems, that somewhere, I saw a reference that "koge" originally used for a parflesche container.
Jimm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Jan 18 19:10:04 2006
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:10:04 -0700
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <20060118182351.18698.qmail@web54504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.121004.0700.>

This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

>
>
> Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
> that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
> word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
> usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
> by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
> the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
> maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
> use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
> recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
> handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
> is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.
>
> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
> concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.
>
>   John,
>   If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
>
>   "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."
>
> Hope it helps,
>   Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> Be a friend...
> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos � Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
>  Photo Books. You design it and we�ll bind it!


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 18 19:39:10 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:39:10 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601181207450.26671@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.113910.0800.>

John,
If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

"The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."

Hope it helps,
Jonathan


ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:  
This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it. Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped. If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

>
>
> Koontz John E wrote: ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
> that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
> word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
> usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
> by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
> the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
> maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
> use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
> recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
> handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
> is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.
>
> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
> concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.
>
> John,
> If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
>
> "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."
>
> Hope it helps,
> Jonathan

			
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From jfu at centrum.cz  Wed Jan 18 19:41:42 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:41:42 +0100
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601181207450.26671@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.204142.0100.>

Hi David,

> This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out 
> there might be able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once 
> upon a time I heard that the Native American words for 
> 'thousand' often had something to do with cash boxes in which 
> silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If 
> that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.

This is interesting. 
It makes me wonder if perhaps the Lakota word for khokta' - 'thousand'
originates from khoka' - 'wood box, keg, barrel'


Jan


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 18 21:19:24 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:19:24 +0000
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.211924.0000.>

Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness"
ie "zero degrees centigrade"
Bruce

> 
>   osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)
> 
>   ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)
> 



		
___________________________________________________________ 
NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 21:59:07 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:59:07 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060118211924.67453.qmail@web26806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.155907.0600.>

> Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness"
> ie "zero degrees centigrade"
> Bruce

Neat!!  I hadn't thought of that, but it makes perfect sense.  But given
that this word is established by the beginning of the 20th century, in
Minnesota, isn't it more likely that it means "zero degrees Fahrenheit"?

Thanks for the insight!

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan 18 22:02:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:02:25 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.160225.0600.>

The modern day word for "1000" in Ponca is ku'ge. Ku'ge is also the word for "trunk" or "box". I have had several Ponca elders tell me that ku'ge for "1000" derived from the time treaty payments arrived as 1000 gold coins in a box. Interestingly, I once had an elderly Osage woman tell me that "ku'ge" for "trunk" derived from the verb "k'u" - to give away.....that they used to give away when the trunks of money arrived. Perhaps they are related?

Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

Tom Leonard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 18 22:07:21 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:07:21 +0000
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF8D123F8A.98CBCCEE-ON862570FA.00784798-862570FA.0077D559@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.220721.0000.>

Yes.  I'm sure you're right.  We used to use
Fahrenheight over here too, but have been affected by
the Europeans (Napoleon originally) and now think in
hundreds.  The Americans have remained truer to the
Anglo Saxon tradition
Bruce
--- Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:

> > Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the
> coldness"
> > ie "zero degrees centigrade"
> > Bruce
> 
> Neat!!  I hadn't thought of that, but it makes
> perfect sense.  But given
> that this word is established by the beginning of
> the 20th century, in
> Minnesota, isn't it more likely that it means "zero
> degrees Fahrenheit"?
> 
> Thanks for the insight!
> 
> Rory
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
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From kdshea at ku.edu  Wed Jan 18 22:54:07 2006
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Shea, Kathleen Dorette)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:54:07 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.165407.0600.>

I'm far out west in Santa Barbara dealing with a family crisis, but I couldn't help putting in my two-cents' worth.  Most of the time, I've gotten the alternate translation "trunk" for kkuge "thousand" rather than "box."  The image I have in mind of a trunk, which might have been conveyed to me by one of my consultants, is one of a large parfleche-like container (of hide) used for storage of all kinds of items within the household.

Kathy Shea

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard
Sent: Wed 1/18/2006 4:02 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand
 
The modern day word for "1000" in Ponca is ku'ge. Ku'ge is also the word for "trunk" or "box". I have had several Ponca elders tell me that ku'ge for "1000" derived from the time treaty payments arrived as 1000 gold coins in a box. Interestingly, I once had an elderly Osage woman tell me that "ku'ge" for "trunk" derived from the verb "k'u" - to give away.....that they used to give away when the trunks of money arrived. Perhaps they are related?

Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

Tom Leonard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
  Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 23:02:34 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:02:34 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.150234.0800.>


Don't know about other Siouan languages, but in Miami, nkoti eehsipana 'one
raccoon' also means 'quarter dollar'.


Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding
tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents".
The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is
said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or
what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar
etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?
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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 23:06:47 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:06:47 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.150647.0800.>

And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan 
languages have that?


Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding
tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents".
The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is
said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or
what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar
etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 23:43:34 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:43:34 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <E1EzMLi-0001Zd-00@pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.174334.0600.>

> Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst
surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for
"25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka
itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count
a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do
we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

> Don't know about other Siouan languages, but in Miami, nkoti eehsipana
'one raccoon' also means 'quarter dollar'.

We've got mikka'ha idha'wa, or "raccoon-skin counter", in Omaha too.  It's
nice to see that it also appears in Algonquian.  I would guess that this
was the standard price paid for raccoon skins at some prolonged or critical
period of time in the early-mid 19th century, perhaps even at a particular
trading establishment.

It would be interesting to know when, and what the areal/ethnic
distribution of this calque may have been.  David, what can you tell us
about the movement history of the Miami in the 19th century?  Did they ever
get close to the eastern Nebraska-western Iowa region?  Also, what about
other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime', 'half-dime',
and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and Ponka
forms?

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan 18 23:45:04 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:45:04 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.174504.0600.>

Re: O/P term for one thousand>>And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan languages have that?

The Ponca word for dollar is "wi bthu'ga" (one whole) or maN'ze ska wi bthu'ga (white metal one whole).  


      Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?


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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 00:07:23 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:07:23 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <E1EzMPn-0002dH-00@pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.180723.0600.>

> And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan
languages have that?

I don't recall ever seeing that one, and I have looked through several.

Didn't the market for beaver collapse about the 1820s?  If so, that might
suggest that the Miami 'beaver' word for 'dollar' was coined before that
time, since it suggests the sort of stable price you would expect if
trading houses were eagerly buying them.

Fletcher and La Flesche state on page 617 that beaver skins were sold for
$4-$6 in the middle of the 19th century.  Assuming that there was general
inflation as time went on even back then, and that prices didn't vary too
radically for different parts of the frontier at any given time, that would
also argue for an early date for this term.

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 03:04:13 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:13 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.210413.0600.>

>>Also, what about
>>other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime', 'half-dime',
>>and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and Ponka
>>forms?

Ponca Money Names

penny = we'thawa zhi'de (to count - red)

nickle = shu'ga zhiN'ga (thick - small)

dime = bthe'ka zhiN'ga (thin - small)

quarter = mi'ka ha i'thawa -or- mi'ka ha i'tha -or- mi'ka itha'wa (raccoon
hide - to count)

half dollar = maNsaN thi'ha

seventy-five cents = mi'ka itha'wa tha'bthi (raccoon hide - to count -
three)

one dollar = wi bthu'ga (one - whole)


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jan 19 09:19:16 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:19:16 +0100
Subject: concept of zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.101916.0100.>

Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness" ie "zero degrees 
centigrade"  Bruce <<

osni-o-choka

How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare) 
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?


Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 16:13:35 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:13:35 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601172305160.11891@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.101335.0600.>

> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an
old
> concept?  How widespread is 'box' in this sense?  I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.

Good question!  The main reference I have is Fletcher and La Flesche, p.
617, and looking at it, I see where I made an error in my thesis referring
to it, the correction of which tends to favor your view that Siouan
languages did in fact have high numbers prior to contact:

"A thousand dollars was called kku'ge wiN (kku'ge, "box"; wiN, "one"), the
name originating from the custom of packing this number of silver dollars
in a small box for convenience of transportation.  In the case of payments
to Indian tribes by government agents the term for the number 1,000 was
gthe'boNhiwiNttoNga (gthe'boN, "ten"; hiwiN, "progressing toward one;"
wiNttoNga, "big")."

So it looks like they did have a native term for 1000, as well as the
shorter and more slangy trade calque "box".  This agrees very well with the
information David Costa posted yesterday (12:49PM) on Miami-Illinois.
Apparently native terms existed, but the local "box" term was probably used
for international dealings in each local pidgin.

Dating this usage is more problematic.  In my thesis, I had somehow
confounded F&LF's two separate statements into the notion that kku'ge
referred to the government treaty payments, which F&LF in fact deny.  On
the other hand, Howard's "The Ponca Tribe", cited by Jonathan Holmes, makes
that very claim for the Ponca.  Tom Leonard's Ponca informants support that
view.  Jimm Goodtracks' IOM informants refer it to Army ammunition boxes,
which also implies the government.  Summing this up with the Miami-Illinois
information offered by David, and considering the crude feel of the word, I
would favor the view that the international heyday of the "box" term was
early as he suggested, probably prior to 1820, and hence before the Omaha
treaty payments.  The term must have evolved separately in different
languages after that.  Thus, the Ponca used it for the treaty payments; the
Omaha did not, but kept it as an alternate numeric term along with a much
more windy native term; and the Iowa-Oto-Missouria transferred it to
1000-round Army ammunition boxes, as well as using it as the number 1000.

Rory


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Thu Jan 19 17:06:27 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:06:27 +0000
Subject: my two cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.170627.0000.>

Regarding money and counting, Dougf Parks informed me way back that 'box' = thousand in Pawnee and that irt referred to the silver dollars used in treaty payments (I don't know if it also does this in Arikara, or in more southerly Caddoan languages).  So the metaphor is shared between Chiwere, Dhegiha and Pawnee at least.  It looks like a loan-translation which was disseminated by people bilingual in more than one Native language (which raises the question: what's 'a thousand' in Plains Sign Language?).   One finds similar metaphors all over the US: both Hanis Coos and Hupa (and intervening languages??) used 'a stick' for 'hundred', for instance (I think there may be a connection with dentalium shells there).  

Dave Costa told me that Miami /ayaapia/ 'buck' also means dollar - loan translation from English?    Doug has observed to me that at least some money terms in Pawnee are straight from English /tupits/ for 50 cents, for instance.  

Anthony

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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 19 17:01:33 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:01:33 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.090133.0800.>

> It would be interesting to know when, and what the areal/ethnic distribution
> of this calque may have been.  David, what can you tell us about the movement
> history of the Miami in the 19th century?

It's fairly complicated, but the bottom line is that by 1832 all the
Illinois-speaking groups had been forced out of that state, eventually
ending up in Oklahoma via Kansas. In 1846 half the Miami were forcibly
removed from Indiana, also eventually ending up in Oklahoma via Kansas by
1867. Being much closer to the front end of Anglo colonization, the
Miami-Illinois-speaking groups were forced to move much earlier than the
Siouan-speaking groups to their west.

> Did they ever get close to the eastern Nebraska-western Iowa region?

No. The Illinois spent some time in eastern Iowa in the very early contact
period (the late 17th century), but that's about it.

We don't have to posit a scenario whereby these terms passed directly from
M-I-speaking groups to adjacent Siouan groups. They could just as well have
passed through some other intermediary languages on their way to Chiwere,
Dhegiha and Lakhota. Or perhaps this vocabulary started getting passed
around in the reservation period, when the Miami and Ponka were already in
Oklahoma? This would require someone whose specialty is history, which mine
isn't.

I wish I had better Algonquian data on this, but this usage of 'beaver' for
'dollar' and 'raccoon' for 'quarter' is around in other Algonquian
languages; the 'dollar' = 'beaver' equivalence is also seen in Potawatomi,
and BOTH 'dollar' = 'beaver' and 'quarter' = 'raccoon' are also found in
Kickapoo, the language that seems to share the most post-contact vocabulary
innovations with Miami-Illinois.

> Also, what about other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime',
> 'half-dime', and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and
> Ponka forms?

Well, like I said, 'dollar' comes from the word for 'beaver', so Miami nkoti
amehkwa = 'one dollar' (compare Kickapoo nekotoomehkwe 'one dollar or
peso'). 'Half dollar' is napale shooli, literally 'half money' (shooli =
'money').

The other terms are less helpful; 'nickel' is from a verb meaning 'shiny
metal', and 'dime' is mataathswi cents, with borrowing of English 'cents'.

Dave


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 19 17:11:06 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:11:06 -0800
Subject: my two cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.091106.0800.>

Lord, I hope I didn't say that! It's Miami /amehkwa/ 'beaver' which means 
'dollar', not /ayaapia/.

Dave

> Dave Costa told me that Miami /ayaapia/ 'buck' also means dollar - loan
> translation from English?    


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 17:50:35 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:50:35 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.115035.0600.>

>Summing this up with the Miami-Illinois
> information offered by David, and considering the crude feel of the word,
I
> would favor the view that the international heyday of the "box" term was
> early as he suggested, probably prior to 1820, and hence before the Omaha
> treaty payments.  The term must have evolved separately in different
> languages after that.  Thus, the Ponca used it for the treaty payments;
the
> Omaha did not, but kept it as an alternate numeric term along with a much
> more windy native term; and the Iowa-Oto-Missouria transferred it to
> 1000-round Army ammunition boxes, as well as using it as the number 1000.
>

Just for the record, the following are the earliest Treaty dates that I can
find wherein a monetary (currency) settlement is mentioned:

Ponca - Treaty of 1858
Omaha - Treaty of 1854
Osage - Treaty of 1808
Kansa - Treaty of 1825
Quapaw - Treaty of 1824

Chippewa - Treaty of 1819
Comanche, Kiowa, and Apache - Treaty of 1853
Iowa - Treaty of 1824
Miami - Treaty of 1805
Oto & Missouria - Treaty of 1833
Pawnee - Treaty of 1857
Sac & Fox - Treaty of 1824
Sioux - Treaty of 1837
Winnebago - Treaty of 1832

If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From jfu at centrum.cz  Thu Jan 19 18:33:05 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:33:05 +0100
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.193305.0100.>

On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I am pleased to announce
the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak Lakota! Level 2 textbook.

The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the language a sequenced
follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which focused on
contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral activities, and TPR methods.

The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and writing Lakota and to
reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.

The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools systems across North and
South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable for adult self-study at
the beginner level, as well.

Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all the Lakota reservations
assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large part to this broad
community support, the LLC was recently awarded the Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota language means a great
deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and the numerous volunteers
working to create a new generation of proficient Lakota speakers.

The LLC focuses on producing effective language materials as well as on
initiating and supporting various language immersion activities that help
Native communities in their struggle to rebuild their languages. You can
help! Purchases of these materials directly aid these efforts.

Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or www.languagepress.com


Jan F. Ullrich
Lakota Language Consortium
www.lakhota.org
e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 20:36:39 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:36:39 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.143639.0600.>

Yes, that's what Mrs. Rowe said.  The Kaw term for 'thousand' is /z^aN kkoge/ literally 'wooden box'.  Silver dollars were shipped from the treasury in wooden crates of 1000.
 
Bob

> This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Thu Jan 19 21:19:17 2006
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:19:17 EST
Subject: my ten cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.161917.EST.>

The Crow for 'ten cents' is tennisee'te, a rare English borrowing that is 
assimilated to Crow phonology.

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 21:22:54 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:22:54 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.152254.0600.>

I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.  The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.
 
Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a hollow sound'.  
 
Bob
 
> If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 21:44:16 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:44:16 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.154416.0600.>

Also, I tend to think of OP bdhuga, Kaw bloga, etc. meaning 'one dollar', as referring back to the coins that were scored so they could be broken into eight parts or 'bits'.  "Pieces-of-eight."  Rory talked about these in his paper at the MSU Siouan Conference in East Lansing a few years back.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Thu 1/19/2006 3:22 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Lakota Concept of Zero


I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.  The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.
 
Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a hollow sound'.  
 
Bob
 
> If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 22:37:14 2006
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:37:14 -0600
Subject: box
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.163714.0600.>

To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu

Subject RE: Lakota Concept of Zero

I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology. 

The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.


Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a 

hollow sound'. 


Bob



ALOHA Y'ALL

So how does ku'ge "box" relate to "drum"?

WibthahoN,

Uthixide

Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
Native American Studies
University of Nebraska
841 Oldfather Hall 
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
402-472-3455
FAX 402-472-9642
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu

UmoNhoN ie thethudi
Omaha Language Spoken Here
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 23:17:19 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:17:19 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.171719.0600.>

Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this? 
I need this for a teaching grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have a list, perhaps from a teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a reference citation or two?

Thanks,
Tom Leonard
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From pustetrm at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 20 02:04:31 2006
From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:04:31 -0800
Subject: naked
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.180431.0800.>

ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know for 'naked' off the top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the existence of competing terms, of course.
   
  Regina
  

"How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare) 
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?


Alfred





		
---------------------------------
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 Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Jan 20 09:00:40 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:00:40 +0100
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.100040.0100.>

 > ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know for 'naked' off the 
top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the existence of competing 
terms, of course.
 
Regina <<


 >> "How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare)
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic? <<<<


Buechel gives both hacho'la (cho'la: destitute, without, not having) and 
choka'la. But there's also haco'cola (naked, as said of men), lit. 
maybe: 'soft-skinned' fr. coco' (soft, as mud) and coco'la (soft)?


Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Fri Jan 20 13:06:25 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:06:25 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <000001c61d4e$838c4360$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.070625.0600.>

> Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in
Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this?
I need this for a teaching grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have
a list, perhaps from a teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a
reference citation or two?

I could probably come up with a fairly good list off the top of my head for
a start.  Or, we've been working on a dictionary project at UNL, pulling
out all the words in the first several stories in Dorsey.  I think we have
over four hundred words by now.  I could go through that and pull out
anything that I would subjectively consider a common verb.  Would that be
useful?  And if so, would you want stative verbs as well as active ones?

Rory


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:23:27 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:23:27 +0000
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
In-Reply-To: <43D0A6B8.6070003@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.132327.0000.>

Si-chola also means 'bare-foot' although it looks like
'footless' and could perhaps be a derivatiuon from
si-ha chola ie 'withouty foot covering
Bruce
--- "Alfred W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

>  > ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know
> for 'naked' off the 
> top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the
> existence of competing 
> terms, of course.
>  
> Regina <<
> 
> 
>  >> "How's choka' (empty, without anything) and
> choka'la (naked, bare)
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic? <<<<
> 
> 
> Buechel gives both hacho'la (cho'la: destitute,
> without, not having) and 
> choka'la. But there's also haco'cola (naked, as said
> of men), lit. 
> maybe: 'soft-skinned' fr. coco' (soft, as mud) and
> coco'la (soft)?
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 
> 
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:40:07 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:40:07 +0000
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
In-Reply-To: <008501c61d26$daf06c30$7202a8c0@ullrichnet>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.134007.0000.>

Dear Jan
Congratulations.  If you send me the publication
details, I'll order a copy from here
Yours
Bruce
--- "Jan F. Ullrich" <jfu at centrum.cz> wrote:

> 
> 
> On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I
> am pleased to announce
> the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak
> Lakota! Level 2 textbook.
> 
> The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the
> language a sequenced
> follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which
> focused on
> contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral
> activities, and TPR methods.
> 
> The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and
> writing Lakota and to
> reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.
> 
> The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools
> systems across North and
> South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable
> for adult self-study at
> the beginner level, as well.
> 
> Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all
> the Lakota reservations
> assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large
> part to this broad
> community support, the LLC was recently awarded the
> Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
> The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota
> language means a great
> deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and
> the numerous volunteers
> working to create a new generation of proficient
> Lakota speakers.
> 
> The LLC focuses on producing effective language
> materials as well as on
> initiating and supporting various language immersion
> activities that help
> Native communities in their struggle to rebuild
> their languages. You can
> help! Purchases of these materials directly aid
> these efforts.
> 
> Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or
> www.languagepress.com
> 
> 
> Jan F. Ullrich
> Lakota Language Consortium
> www.lakhota.org
> e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org
> 
> 
> 
> 



		
___________________________________________________________ 
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:48:48 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:48:48 +0000
Subject: concept of zero
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.134848.0000.>

It is strange that the cho-la 'empty, without' and the
choka 'middle' are partly homophonous.  I have never
seen a connection suggested.  The 'without' term is
cho- or cho-la, where the -la is presumably the
diminutive which often means 'no more' 'enough' as in
henala 'only those' 'that is all' .  Comparative
Siouanists may be able to tell us more about the cho-
vs choka 
Bruce
--- "Alfred W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the
> coldness" ie "zero degrees 
> centigrade"  Bruce <<
> 
> osni-o-choka
> 
> How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la
> (naked, bare) 
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


From tmleonard at cox.net  Fri Jan 20 15:13:41 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:13:41 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.091341.0600.>

 > I could probably come up with a fairly good list off the top of my head
for
> a start.  Or, we've been working on a dictionary project at UNL, pulling
> out all the words in the first several stories in Dorsey.  I think we have
> over four hundred words by now.  I could go through that and pull out
> anything that I would subjectively consider a common verb.  Would that be
> useful?  And if so, would you want stative verbs as well as active ones?
>
> Rory

Thank you, Rory. I have Dorsey's slip files on film, as well as vocabulary
from Frieda Hahn and others (not to mention my own files).  I am curious to
see what the most commonly used verbs are exactly, not only for inclusion in
a teaching grammar, but also for consideration in anthropological/linguistic
sense. I think it would be interesting to note.

Is any one aware of such a study being conducted?

Regarding the teaching grammar, the most frequently used verbs would be
obvious candidates to include in the work. I'm certainly a newbie to this
and I'm wondering if there are any guidelines/recommendations (for which
verbs to include) from teachers involved with teaching Indigenous
languages - or if anyone, in fact, has listed the most frequently used verbs
in OP.


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Fri Jan 20 16:03:21 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:03:21 +0000
Subject: pieces of eight
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.160321.0000.>

You probably all know this numismatic stuff, but David Rood discussed coins of this kind in some Wichita work of his that I've seen.  The panish coins of this type were called tomi'n (where ' is my attempt to produce the acute accent), which is a common word for money in many languages of Mesoamerica.  In Spanish it derives from a form of the Arabic word for 'eight' (Bruce can doubtless cast mor light on which form this is in Arabic but I know the basic numeral in literary Arabic is thamanya).

Anthony



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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Jan 21 02:17:22 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:17:22 -0600
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.201722.0600.>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 22 06:56:32 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:56:32 -0800
Subject: "hethu's^ka" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JAN.2006.225632.0800.>

Back in December 2003, there was a short discussion on this list about the possible meaning of the Ponca word "Hethuska" or "Hethu's^ka," currently used to describe a Ponca warrior/veteran organization also known as a "war dance society".
   
  Recently, I happened on a "folk etymology" for the meaning of the word from a member of the Ponca Hethuska Society in north-central Oklahoma, and wondered if it may provide any added clues for further discussion.
   
  The Ponca Hethuska member said that he was told by fellow society members that the origin of the term is said to mean "bare legs," and is in reference to the practice of removing the deerskin leggings by the old-time warriors of this society, before going into battle.
   
  Any thoughts?


Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































			
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jan 22 10:11:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 04:11:25 -0600
Subject: "hethu's^ka" revisited
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JAN.2006.041125.0600.>

I think I've read this somewhere before, perhaps in Dr. Howard's (OSU) "The Ponca Tribe" (not sure). If it's origin is Howard, it wouldn't surprise me. A fair amount of the cultural information he published in "The Ponca Tribe", in my experience, met with "I never said that" or "where'd he get THAT?" from some of his very same "informants". The differences between what was published and what the same informants said less than ten years later was rather stark. So, I'd advise some caution if this is the original source. Also, this book has been around for quite some time and it's not unusual to find some of it's notions being reiterated now as "primary info".

Culturally "bare legs" doesn't make very much sense. Linguistically, I can't get there at all.

Culturally, "xthe xthe shka'de" or "xthe xthe u'skaN" makes the most sense (to me). However, I think the previous discussions here have demonstrated these to be linguistic nebulae.

Tom Leonard
  The Ponca Hethuska member said that he was told by fellow society members that the origin of the term is said to mean "bare legs," and is in reference to the practice of removing the deerskin leggings by the old-time warriors of this society, before going into battle.

  Any thoughts?
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From BARudes at aol.com  Mon Jan 23 02:26:18 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:26:18 EST
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JAN.2006.212618.EST.>

For those who just couldn't get enough from _www.msnbc.com_ 
(http://www.msnbc.com) , there is more at:
 
_http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0120_060120_new_world_2.html_
 
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0120_060120_new_world_2.html) 
 
and
 
_http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/entertainment/performing_arts/_ 
(http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/entertainment/performing_arts/) 
 
Well, that's enough self-promotion for today.
 
Blair
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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 23 12:34:00 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:34:00 +0000
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
In-Reply-To: <260.58f83c4.310598ca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2006.123400.0000.>

Thanks Blair that was all really interesting.  Is the
language in Black Robe anything like your Virginia
Algonquian?
Bruce



		
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From wiyakawi at netzero.net  Fri Jan 27 01:04:37 2006
From: wiyakawi at netzero.net (R.A.Cameron)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:04:37 -0700
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
In-Reply-To: AAAAAEx6wQ90YlRMnHwy9l+fp/BEAyAA
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.180437.0700.>

Jan,

Thank you so much for sending me a book.  I also received the flyer the
other day and have shown it to the admin at my school.  I have not heard
back from them yet but I think we have a good chance of offering Lakota at
the school.

Thanks again for all your help.  Sorry about my emails filling up your
inbox.  For some reason, Outlook has been stalling emails in my outbox and
keeps sending them over and over again!

Take care,
Ruth 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jan F. Ullrich
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:33 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook



On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I am pleased to announce
the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak Lakota! Level 2 textbook.

The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the language a sequenced
follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which focused on
contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral activities, and TPR methods.

The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and writing Lakota and to
reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.

The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools systems across North and
South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable for adult self-study at
the beginner level, as well.

Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all the Lakota reservations
assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large part to this broad
community support, the LLC was recently awarded the Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota language means a great
deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and the numerous volunteers
working to create a new generation of proficient Lakota speakers.

The LLC focuses on producing effective language materials as well as on
initiating and supporting various language immersion activities that help
Native communities in their struggle to rebuild their languages. You can
help! Purchases of these materials directly aid these efforts.

Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or www.languagepress.com


Jan F. Ullrich
Lakota Language Consortium
www.lakhota.org
e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:28:39 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:28:39 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6018876FF@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.182839.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.
> The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.

I tend to agree.  And, for what it's worth, OP has ?i 'to give'
corresponding regularly to Osage k?u (with u being u-umlaut), Da k?u, etc.
Whereas the box words are OP kkuge, Os hkoke, Da khoka.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:33:38 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:33:38 -0700
Subject: concept of zero
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183338.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, "Alfred W. Tüting" wrote:
> How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare)
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?

I would assume that the connection is quite direct:  choka' in the gloss
'without anything; is equivalent to 'poor', and choka'=la is 'a little
poor; considered to be poor, as-one-might-say poor'.  Poverty breeds
nakedness.  One is literally, rather than figuratively, "without anything
to wear!"


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:37:10 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:37:10 -0700
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <000001c61d4e$838c4360$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183710.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in
> Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this?  I need this for a teaching
> grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have a list, perhaps from a
> teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a reference citation or
> two?

For a start I must have somewhere a frequency count of the words in
Dorsey 1890 & 1891, and, if not, it's easy to make one.  Of course, that's
for inflected forms, which is quite a different thing.  You want most
frequent stems, without regard to the inflection.  In addition, usage in
Dorsey's selection of texts might be quite different from conversational
usage, or usage in a different set of texts.  Perhaps usage in the letters
would be more like usage in conversation.

Is such a list available for any Siouan language?  Up to a point it might
be possible to substitute OP stems and have what you want.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:39:08 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:39:08 -0700
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
In-Reply-To: <20060120132327.37378.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183908.0700.>

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, shokooh Ingham wrote:
> Si-chola also means 'bare-foot' although it looks like
> 'footless' and could perhaps be a derivation from
> si-ha chola ie 'withouty foot covering

Whereas in English bootless means 'useless'.

But isn't the process of using forms like 'footless' for
'foot-covering-less' something that occurs fairly frequently in language?


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:42:54 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:42:54 -0700
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <002001c61dd4$198d4a00$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.184254.0700.>

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> Thank you, Rory. I have Dorsey's slip files on film, as well as vocabulary
> from Frieda Hahn and others (not to mention my own files).  I am curious to
> see what the most commonly used verbs are exactly, not only for inclusion in
> a teaching grammar, but also for consideration in anthropological/linguistic
> sense. I think it would be interesting to note.

It occurs to me that in the context of Siouan grammars one might also need
to consider not just verb stems, but certain kinds of derivation.   For
example, some of the instrumentals are very frequent and essentially
productive.  Because of their frequency and productivity they are
functionally (and practically) equivalent to some kinds of frequent verb
in, say, English.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:49:31 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:49:31 -0700
Subject: my two cents
In-Reply-To: <s3cfc71c.031@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.184931.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Anthony Grant wrote:
> Doug has observed to me that at least some money terms in Pawnee are
> straight from English /tupits/ for 50 cents, for instance.

This is a bit surprising, perhaps an early case of rampant inflation - I
need a "smiley" here by way of apology to Tony - because in English -
American English, rather - it's a quarter, as in "two bits, four bits, six
bits, a dollar."  I agree with Bob that Rory's explanation of bdhuga
'whole' = 'dollar' in these terms is pretty convincing.


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Wed Jan 11 13:00:26 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:00:26 +0000
Subject: a Caddoan question
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.130026.0000.>

Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005.  Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

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<<<<EdgeHill>>>>


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 11 15:55:34 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:55:34 -0800
Subject: a Caddoan question
In-Reply-To: <s3c50189.097@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.075534.0800.>

Anthony,
  The University of Nebraska Press website does not list the book title in question. However, the website for the American Indian Studies Research Institute/Indiana University, has listed "The Skiri Pawnee Multimedia Dictionary for Windows" (CD-ROM) (copyright 2005) with an accompanying Pawnee Alphabet Book written by Douglas Parks.
   
  Go to:  http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/pawnee/index.shtml
   
  Hope that helps.
  Jonathan

Anthony Grant <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:
  Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005. Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
<<<>>>

  



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From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu  Wed Jan 11 17:13:35 2006
From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:13:35 -0800
Subject: a Caddoan question
In-Reply-To: <s3c50189.097@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.091335.0800.>

Anthony,

No, it isn't out yet. Still in the works. I expect that it will appear 
sometime in 2006, if all goes well.

Wally

--On Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:00 PM +0000 Anthony Grant 
<Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:

> Folks:
>
> Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of
> Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a
> reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of
> Nebraska Press in 2005.  Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if
> it's out yet?
>
> Anthony
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for
> the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  Any views or opinions
> presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent
> those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it
> and all copies of it.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use,
> disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are
> not the intended recipient.
>
> The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to
> identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor
> content.  However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access
> business communications during staff absence.
>
> Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments
> are virus free.  However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to
> ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge
> Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
> <<<<EdgeHill>>>>
>


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Wed Jan 11 17:25:31 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:25:31 +0000
Subject: a Caddoan question
Message-ID: <WED.11.JAN.2006.172531.0000.>

Thanks, Jonatahn - the link is really handy! 

>>> okibjonathan at yahoo.com 01/11/06 3:55 pm >>>
Anthony,
  The University of Nebraska Press website does not list the book title in question. However, the website for the American Indian Studies Research Institute/Indiana University, has listed "The Skiri Pawnee Multimedia Dictionary for Windows" (CD-ROM) (copyright 2005) with an accompanying Pawnee Alphabet Book written by Douglas Parks.
   
  Go to:  http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/projects/pawnee/index.shtml 
   
  Hope that helps.
  Jonathan

Anthony Grant <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> wrote:
  Folks:

Reading the article on Caddoan languages in the new Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (ed. Keith Brown; Elsevier 2006) I saw a reference to a dictionary of Skiri Pawnee by Doug Parks published by U of Nebraska Press in 2005. Amazon doesn't list it - does anyone know if it's out yet?

Anthony

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
<<<>>>

  



Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org 
 































		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
 Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

-----------------------------------------------------
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.

The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content.  However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence.

Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free.  However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.
<<<<EdgeHill>>>>


From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Sat Jan 14 21:06:32 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:06:32 -0600
Subject: Fw: occurrence of phonemes in texts of world languages
Message-ID: <SAT.14.JAN.2006.150632.0600.>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Yuri Tambovtsev 
To: goodtracks at peoplepc.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 7:55 AM
Subject: occurrence of phonemes in texts of world languages


Dear Jim, I compute the frequency of occurrence of 
phonemes in world languages. The frequency of occurrence is computed on the material of texts and dictionaries. I feed a text in my computer and then I compute how many times this or that sound occurs. I have computed some Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Paleo-Asiatic, Australian aboriginal, Polinesian, etc.languages.  Also some American Indian languages: Totonac, Nahuatl, 
Sayula populuca, Pocomchi, Capanahua, and 20 more American Indian languages. What Amerrican Indian or any other language do you  study? Were the frequencies of its phonemes in texts computed? Could we compute some of the texts in your language? I can do it if you send me a text on paper or in the electronic form, but as a simple -txt or -doc file. 
After that it is interesting to compare, for instance, the 
occurrence of labial consonants in Totonac (7.38%) and 
Pocomchi (10.83%). Or Nahuatl (11.73%) and Sayula populuca (12.34%). Or Guarani (12.92%) and Sweet Grass Cree (15.15%).Etc, etc. The values can also show the typology and the closeness. If you know some linguist who may be intestested in co-operating with me on the problem, then please, forward 
my message to this scholar with my new correct address 
yutamb at mail.ru Do not send me web-sites since my computer system cannot open web-sites. I cannot open attachments as well, only normal messages, like this one. Looking forward to hearing from you soon to yutamb at mail.ru 
Yours sincerely Yuri Tambovtsev, Novosibirsk Pedagog. 
University, Novosibirsk, Russia 
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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 17 22:41:01 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:41:01 -0800
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.144101.0800.>

I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
   
  While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
   
  wanji'ni = none
  takuni = nothing
   
  ...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
   
  Just wondering,
  Jonathan


Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































		
---------------------------------
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 Photo Books. You design it and we?ll bind it!
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 02:21:56 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:21:56 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.202156.0600.>

> I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept
of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.

> While I know of the Lakota terms such as...

> wanji'ni = none
> takuni = nothing

> ...is this the same as "0" (zero)?

> Just wondering,
> Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I've checked Buechel, and Edward Starr's "Dictionary of Modern Lakota", and
neither one seems to have it.  Williamson gives a couple of 'zero' terms
for Dakota, though:

  osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)

  ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)

Zero is a pretty abstract mathematical concept.  I don't think we had it
either until it was invented in India and brought to Europe by the Arabs in
the Middle Ages.  If any of the native languages north of Mexico have it,
it would probably have been coined recently to match the Euro-American
term.

Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.

There are still languages today whose entire mathematical system consists
of 1, 2, and many.  I think most of these are in Australia, but at least
one language in the Amazon, PirahaN, is at about the same level.  Daniel
Everett, who has studied them for almost thirty years, claims that even
this is an exaggeration.  "1" is their word for 'small', "2" is their word
for 'large', and "many" is their word 'cause to come together', used for
anything composed of discrete elements.  In fact, he claims, their language
is so devoid of countable quantification that they do not even have terms
for 'all', 'many', 'most', 'few', 'each', or 'every'!

It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
likely reflect this.

Best,
Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 04:09:44 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:09:44 -0600
Subject: Mandan
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.220944.0600.>

Alright, since John has removed OP from the list of polite topics for this
forum, I've decided to learn Mandan instead.  :)  I'm looking at an old
article by Edward Kennard in the International Journal of American
Linguistics, Volume 9, Number 1, called "Mandan Grammar".  I've found some
points of interest to me, and I wonder if the comparativists would care to
comment on my tenuous understandings, presented below.

1. The stop series is reduced to simple p, t, k, and ?.  All distinctions
based on pre- or post-aspiration or glottalization have merged together for
p, t, and k.  The resulting sounds are voiceless and somewhat aspirated.

2. The fricatives s, s^, x, and h are all voiceless.  If there was ever a
separate z, z^, g^ series, these have merged with the voiceless forms.

3. There are two very similar phonemes which occur in three phonetic forms.
Both are r in intervocalic position unless the preceding consonant is a
nasal, in which case both are n.  The two phonemes are distinct only in
initial position, where one is n and the other is a nasal d, like the sound
at the end of English "hand".  I assume that one of these is Siouan *r and
the other is Siouan *y.  But surprisingly, the 'hand' instrumental prefix
is du-, while the 'mouth' instrumental is na-, which cuts across what I am
familiar with in MVS, such as Dakotan yu-, ya-, and OP dhi-, dha-, which I
had thought went back to Siouan *ru-, *ra-.  Can anyone explain what is
going on here?  And which is which with Mandan d and n, if that's even the
correct question?

4. The only other Mandan consonants are w and m.  I don't know if either of
these is the result of multiple Siouan phonemes collapsing together.

5. Mandan has 10 vowels, 7 oral and 3 nasal:  a, E, e, i, u, o, A, and aN,
iN, uN.  The word for 'buffalo' is ptiN, which I suppose is cognate with
MVS *pte.  Are there any known regular vowel shifts between Mandan and MVS?

6. The causative suffix in Mandan is -hErE, or perhaps we should say -h.rE,
where the period indicates a weak vowel that regularly adopts the value of
the one following it.  Thus, if -hErE is raised to /a/ grade ablaut, it
becomes -hara.  This sort of thing seems to happen commonly in Winnebago
where we have what would be a consonant cluster in Dakotan or Dhegihan.  At
any rate, the h preceding the r seems to answer my long-standing puzzlement
over why the causative alone in Lakhota and OP does not do the bl-, bdh-
thing when inflected for person.

7. Mandan uses two augments for plurality: nit for 2nd person and kErE for
3rd person.  Of these, nit causes preceding -E to ablaut to -a, but kErE
does not.  Neither of these looks much like MVS *pi, or like ire, i, or E
either.

8. The 'we' affixed pronoun is nu (nuN ?), as Bob pointed out recently.

9. The more assertive demand particles are gendered in their usage, as in
other Siouan languages.  Unlike other Siouan languages, however, the gender
is according to the person addressed, rather than according to the speaker!

10. In comparing Mandan with MVS languages that I am more familiar with, I
am amazed at the disparity between different grammatical systems in their
degree of similarity.  Some systems, such as subject pronouns, instrumental
prefixes, locative prefixes, reflexives, the causative, the come, go and
arrive verbs, the conjunction ki and the postposition -ta seem to be almost
identical in form and meaning; while other systems, such as demand
particles, augments, positionals, question words, and all but a handful of
the lexical vocabulary is entirely different.  Do we have a good handle on
where Mandan fits in the Siouan family tree?  I've heard Mandan related
variously with Crow-Hidatsa, Southeastern, and Winnebago.  I'm convinced by
now that it's not MVS, so the last possibility can probably be scratched,
but beyond that I'm not sure.  (I've been assuming that Southeastern and
MVS are closer to each other than either is to Crow-Hidatsa.  Is that
generally accepted?)

Enough ruminations for tonight.  If anybody has any insights, I'd be
delighted to hear them!

Rory


From mckay020 at umn.edu  Wed Jan 18 04:22:03 2006
From: mckay020 at umn.edu (Cantemaza)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:22:03 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.222203.0600.>

Rory M Larson wrote:

>>I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept
>>    
>>
>of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
>terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
>
>  
>
>>While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>wanji'ni = none
>>takuni = nothing
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>Just wondering,
>>Jonathan
>>    
>>
>
>Hi Jonathan,
>
>I've checked Buechel, and Edward Starr's "Dictionary of Modern Lakota", and
>neither one seems to have it.  Williamson gives a couple of 'zero' terms
>for Dakota, though:
>
>  osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)
>
>  ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)
>
>Zero is a pretty abstract mathematical concept.  I don't think we had it
>either until it was invented in India and brought to Europe by the Arabs in
>the Middle Ages.  If any of the native languages north of Mexico have it,
>it would probably have been coined recently to match the Euro-American
>term.
>
>Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
>fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
>that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
>pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
>counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
>and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
>7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
>few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
>OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.
>
>There are still languages today whose entire mathematical system consists
>of 1, 2, and many.  I think most of these are in Australia, but at least
>one language in the Amazon, PirahaN, is at about the same level.  Daniel
>Everett, who has studied them for almost thirty years, claims that even
>this is an exaggeration.  "1" is their word for 'small', "2" is their word
>for 'large', and "many" is their word 'cause to come together', used for
>anything composed of discrete elements.  In fact, he claims, their language
>is so devoid of countable quantification that they do not even have terms
>for 'all', 'many', 'most', 'few', 'each', or 'every'!
>
>It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
>parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
>the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
>administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
>arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
>Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
>likely reflect this.
>
>Best,
>Rory
>
>  
>
Jonathan.

We Dakota (Bdewakantunwan) say "takuda sni" or "nothing" for zero.  I'm 
not sure about "taku sni."  I've never used it or heard it used like 
that.  That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Have you thought about 
asking a Titunwan?

-Cantemaza de miye do.
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 05:47:51 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:47:51 -0700
Subject: Mandan
In-Reply-To: <OF0A6485DA.46ABD670-ON862570FA.000D2B56-862570FA.0015ED9F@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.224751.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> Alright, since John has removed OP from the list of polite topics for this
> forum, I've decided to learn Mandan instead.  :)

No, no!  Surely nothing I said couldn't be construed to mean that!? I
think I may have said something left-handed about my tendency to done on
about it.  Still, it is the world's most interesting language, and I
intend to continue talking about it.

> 1. The stop series is reduced to simple p, t, k, and ?.  All distinctions
> based on pre- or post-aspiration or glottalization have merged together for
> p, t, and k.  The resulting sounds are voiceless and somewhat aspirated.

In fact, I think Richard Carter had noticed a few aspirates, though they
were rare, and the historical ejectives in some cases seem to appear as
root-final glottal stops:  PMV *C?V : Ma CV(?) where (?) means a glottal
that comes and goes depending on context.

Aspirates and nonaspirates about equally common in Teton or Santee Dakotan
- where is Yuri Tambovstov when I need him - and compare to the tense vs.
lax opposition in Dhegiha or (more or less) voiceless vs. voiced
oppositions in Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago.  On the other hand, ejectives are
rare everywhere in Mississippi Valley, and unattested outside of it, as
far as I can recollect, apart from those Mandan traces.  And, in a similar
way true aspirates are pretty rare in Dhegiha, and correspond to some
odd-ball things here and there elsewhere, though mostly they merge with
either the aspirates or the non-aspirates.

Rare aspirates do occur elsewhere.  I don't recall his examples, but
Carter found them in Mandan and I believe Wes Jones pointed out a few in
Hidatsa, too.  In the causative, I think, but also in other places.  In
these languages, when aspirates have been noticed, they have been treated
as clusters.  I think this is the sensible approach, too.

It seems more or less certain that aspirates contrasted with non-aspirates
in Southeastern or Ohio Valley Siouan, too.  But they are only
indifferently recorded.  Dorsey writes dots under some of the
non-aspirates in Biloxi.

Incidentally, Mandan also has root final -h, and though it would be nice
if that corresponded to aspirates (or preaspirates) elsewhere, it seems
that it doesn't, or only very irregularly.  In fact, the -h things show up
here and there elsewhere, e.g., in Omaha haN*h*e, Dakota haN*h*epi 'night
time', for example, and in the arbitrary alternation between *-ka and
-*hka in noun and verb extensions.

The evanescent final ?, h, and also r and sometimes r? in Mandan are
described in Hollow's dissertation.  Carter pointed out to the CSD
committee that Biloxi seems to have lots of final d's matching the Mandan
r's, at least as a phenomenon.  When followed by *e this produces -di.

Comparative Siouanists argue a lot about whether any or all of these extra
bits - h, ?, r, etc. - are epenthetic.  Some hold that they are organic.
If anyone is left standing after one of these arguments, they move on to
the following vowel.  There is no consensus, but then the people
interested number about four, and some or all of them have changed their
views from time to time.

> 2. The fricatives s, s^, x, and h are all voiceless.  If there was ever a
> separate z, z^, g^ series, these have merged with the voiceless forms.

There is an artilce in IJAL c. 1970 by G. H. Matthews addressing this
interesting problem.

> 3. There are two very similar phonemes which occur in three phonetic forms.
> Both are r in intervocalic position unless the preceding consonant is a
> nasal, in which case both are n.  The two phonemes are distinct only in
> initial position, where one is n and the other is a nasal d, like the sound
> at the end of English "hand".  I assume that one of these is Siouan *r and
> the other is Siouan *y.  But surprisingly, the 'hand' instrumental prefix
> is du-, while the 'mouth' instrumental is na-, which cuts across what I am
> familiar with in MVS, such as Dakotan yu-, ya-, and OP dhi-, dha-, which I
> had thought went back to Siouan *ru-, *ra-.  Can anyone explain what is
> going on here?  And which is which with Mandan d and n, if that's even the
> correct question?

All I can remember is that Hollow reduced them to just r.  And Dick Carter
suggested it might be more complex than that, but not in print, even
unpublished print.

> 4. The only other Mandan consonants are w and m.  I don't know if either of
> these is the result of multiple Siouan phonemes collapsing together.

Hollow concluded that m and n are allophones of w and r before nasal
vowels.  Nasality spreads forward through things like w, r, and h, too.
Terry Kaufman has suggested that you can do pretty much the same thing
with Winnebago and Tutelo.  In fact, you can go far with the idea in most
Siouan languages, except Crow and Hidatsa where in the modern languages
lack nasal vowels and m and n are allophones of w and r (or d/l), but
conditioned by things like the beginning of the word or clustering.
However, Randy has show that early Crow word lists tend to have m and n in
roots that are nasalized in other Siouan languages, suggesting that the
lost of nasality is fairly recent.

> 5. Mandan has 10 vowels, 7 oral and 3 nasal:  a, E, e, i, u, o, A, and aN,
> iN, uN.  The word for 'buffalo' is ptiN, which I suppose is cognate with
> MVS *pte.  Are there any known regular vowel shifts between Mandan and MVS?

I think the conclusion in Hollow is that it's actually aeiou aN iN uN.
But there is probably also vowel length and length plus some other
environmental conditioning accounts for some allophony.  For a good time
compare the Winnebago vowels in Lipkind or the Omaha-Ponca vowels in
Dorsey with the modern lists.   I guess OP with length is post-modern OP?

> 6. The causative suffix in Mandan is -hErE, or perhaps we should say -h.rE,
> where the period indicates a weak vowel that regularly adopts the value of
> the one following it.  Thus, if -hErE is raised to /a/ grade ablaut, it
> becomes -hara.  This sort of thing seems to happen commonly in Winnebago
> where we have what would be a consonant cluster in Dakotan or Dhegihan.

Mandan and Crow and Hidatsa and Tutelo, too, I believe all show something
like "Dorsey's Law" in Winnebago.  The Crow and Hidatsa version involves
some collapsing of the vowels inside the cluster.

> At any rate, the h preceding the r seems to answer my long-standing
> puzzlement over why the causative alone in Lakhota and OP does not do
> the bl-, bdh- thing when inflected for person.

I agree.  I think that comparing the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Biloxi
causatives fully explains the rather
arbitrary situations in MVS somewhat along these following lines:  the
PS causative consisted of the main verb followed by subordinating marker
*hi followed by a causative verb *E (*a ~ *e).  The causative verb
acquires an epenthetic *y when preceded by *hi.  So the original paradigm
was something like:

A1 VERB=hi-wa-e
A2 VERB=hi-ya-e
A3 VERB=hi-ye

In most languages *y and *r merge, and in Mississippi Valley as a whole
intervocalic *y becomes *r.  So, *hiyE > *hirE most places.  Sometimes it
is treated as *hErE.  This *hire ~ *hErE is usually treated as a
prefixing stem rather than an infixing one,
but in some cases not.  Infixing forms occur in Hidatsa, I think, and
Biloxi.  I can't remember for Mandan.  Also, for example, Winnebago has:

A1  waa    < (hi)-wa-e
A2  raa    < (hi)-ya-e
A3  hi(i)  < hi(-ye)

The *hi is lost in A1 and A2, and the *re is lost in A3 while *e is merged
with the pronoun in A1 and A2.

The datives are mostly formed by adding *k- to *hire, hence Da *khiyA, OP
*khidhE, Os *kshidhe, and also Winnebago -gigi which is probably from
something liek *ki-k-hi, with an extra *ki added.  And *kh > g in
Winnebago.

> 7. Mandan uses two augments for plurality: nit for 2nd person and kErE for
> 3rd person.  Of these, nit causes preceding -E to ablaut to -a, but kErE
> does not.  Neither of these looks much like MVS *pi, or like ire, i, or E
> either.

However -kErE is usually considered to be a cognate of -ire and the
similar forms in IO and Tutelo.

That nit (Hollow's riNt) is a bit of a puzzle, though.  I wonder if it
might not be an auxiliary.

Incidentally, while the Mandan future looks a lot like the Mississippi
Valley one, Hidatsa and Crow form the future with an auxiliary, which, on
the whole, looks a lot like a remnant of Dhegiha's obligatory miNkHe,
s^niNkHe, etc., auxiliary after the future in -ttE- < *-ktE-.

> 8. The 'we' affixed pronoun is nu (nuN ?), as Bob pointed out recently.

A very complex subject.

> 9. The more assertive demand particles are gendered in their usage, as in
> other Siouan languages.  Unlike other Siouan languages, however, the gender
> is according to the person addressed, rather than according to the speaker!

This seems to happens sometimes, too, in Biloxi, and - I'll have to check
- the vocative of endearment in Omaha-Ponca varies with the sex of the
addressee.  I'm thinking about dhaN/dhe after truncated forms like
siz^iNxti < nisi z^iNga=xti 'very little offspring' or saNz^iN < saNga
z^iNga 'little younger brother' or s^pa < ttu's^pa 'grandchild'.  I've
never seen these vocatives elsewhere, but Kaw substitutes saNz^iN for
saNga for one of the sexes' little brothers, so we know that the
diminutive truncation was formerly more widespread.

I think there are some cases of dhaN/dhe with non-diminutives.

> 10. In comparing Mandan with MVS languages that I am more familiar with, I
> am amazed at the disparity between different grammatical systems in their
> degree of similarity.  Some systems, such as subject pronouns, instrumental
> prefixes, locative prefixes, reflexives, the causative, the come, go and
> arrive verbs, the conjunction ki and the postposition -ta seem to be almost
> identical in form and meaning; while other systems, such as demand
> particles, augments, positionals, question words, and all but a handful of
> the lexical vocabulary is entirely different.

While I remember seeing comparisons of these particles before, and I've
looked at them briefly, it would be interesting to hear more about your
feelings wrt these!

A lot of the unfamiliar vocabulary shows up in Crow-Hidatsa, but not all
of it.  I've always thought it might be fun to compare it with the
unfamiliar Algonquian vocabulary in Blackfoot or, at any rate, with
non-Siouan languages of the area.

Features that Mandan shares with Crow-Hidatsa include the *aku- and *aru-
prefixes and forming the dative in a serial verb construction with *k?u
'give'.  But I think on the whole that Mandan is, if not a Mississippi
Valley language then at least a parallel branch with MVS something like
"Central Siouan."  However, there is such heavy influence from
Crow-Hidatsa that it's hard to tell which.

> Do we have a good handle on where Mandan fits in the Siouan family tree?
> I've heard Mandan related variously with Crow-Hidatsa, Southeastern, and
> Winnebago.

While Crow-Hidatsa has some features like Southeastern, e.g., the verbs of
motion, or the *raka- form of the striking instrumental, I think most of
these turn out to be due to MVS innovations.  Mandan doesn't really have
much in common with Winnebago but Dorsey's Law, and IO, which is very very
similar to Winnebago, lacks that, too.  Mandan does seem to have features
in common with MVS and Crow-Hidatsa.  Among the Southeastern languages
Tutelo is especially similar to MVS.

> I'm convinced by now that it's not MVS, so the last possibility can
> probably be scratched, but beyond that I'm not sure.  (I've been
> assuming that Southeastern and MVS are closer to each other than either
> is to Crow-Hidatsa.  Is that generally accepted?)

Not really.  I think it's just that we know rather little about
Southeastern, which is rather diverse, internally, and we know a lot about
MVS which has a lot of shared innovations and a rather similar set of
retentions.  MVS and CH are clear subgroups.  People tend to accept
Biloxi-Ofo, too.  But the positions of Mandan and Tutelo are somewhat
problematic.  Both share elements with both MVS and their "neighbors" (if
Arkansas and Mississippi can be called neighbors of Virginia).

The waves of arguments about subgrouping, apart from the major
reconstructions, include papers by Voegelin, Rood, Carter and Oliverio &
Rankin.  I anticipate continued disturbances along that frontier.

> Enough ruminations for tonight.  If anybody has any insights, I'd be
> delighted to hear them!

Very interesting indeed!  It's especially neat the way your attention is
drawn to much the same things that I've noticed and David and Bob and Dick
and Wes before that, and Hu Matthews and Terry Kaufman before that.  And
you come up with the same conclusions (or pairs of possible conclusions)
from them.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 06:05:08 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:05:08 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.230508.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
> I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric
> concept of "0" (zero).

I tend to agree with Rory - 'zero' or at least the combination of the
concept of nothingness as a number and as a mechanism in place-notation
for writing numerals is a rather rare and recent thing.  My desk copy of
Webster's traces the familiar European forms to Mediaeval Latin zephirum,
from Arabic <s.>ifr 'empty, cipher, zero'.   The word cipher comes from
the same source.  Zero is one of those useful things that catches on like
wildfire when introduced, but doesn't go back very far anywhere.  It's not
a natural counting number and in quantifying it is not distinct from
'none' or 'nothing' until it is attached to place notation.  It doesn't
seem to be a number until it's a numeral, so to speak.

I wonder if zero arose from writing down the state of various sorts of
abacusses?  Abacusses are naturally associated with place notation, and
zero would be a way of writing down a "place" with nothing in it.  If you
use a series of hollows with counters in them, then zero might even be the
graphical representation of an empty hollow.  With beads on a wire it's a
bit harder to see a graphical connection.

There is a book on Native American Mathematics by Michael Closs (U of
Texas, 1996).


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jan 18 06:34:13 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:34:13 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.JAN.2006.233413.0700.>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> Even regular counting terms probably haven't been around too long.  The
> fact that just about everybody seems to use a base-10 counting system shows
> that it started out by matching fingers to quantity.  Finger names are
> pretty volatile, and in a lot of obviously related languages the higher
> counting terms don't agree.  I think across Siouan, the numbers 2, 3, 4,
> and possibly 1, are cognate.  Within MVS, I believe 5, 6, and 10 are added.
> 7, 8, and 9 were apparently not standard counting numbers until perhaps a
> few centuries ago, maybe about the time of proto-Dakotan.  Even Osage and
> OP seem to differ on 8 and 9.

And 12, I think.

> It looks like counting terms and mathematics have been developing in crude
> parallel all over the world in the last ten thousand years or so along with
> the shift to settled dwelling, agriculture, private property, trade, and
> administration.  Our foraging ancestors, however, apparently did not need
> arithmetic.  Native North Americans were foragers much more recently than
> Europeans were, and the mathematical component of their languages will
> likely reflect this.

I agree.  I think there are several books on early Mesopotamian
mathematics and accounting.  I think the accounting aspects are missing
for the state-organized parts of the Americas, perhaps due to choice of
medium, but the astronomical aspects are available.  Agriculture and
astronomical observations and more integrated states seem to lead pretty
immediately to mathematics everywhere.

However, where we have information or reconstructions it looks it doesn't
take much for numbering up into the hundred and thousands to break out.

My suspicion is that Siouan counting isn't reconstructable above five
(except for ten) because numerals are much more variable over time than
Indo-Europeanists have traditionally believed.  Siouan and its neighbors
reflect a certain amount of borrowing of numerals, and also of descriptive
terms alternating with more opaque terms.  I suspect Proto-Siouan speakers
could count as well as historical Siouan speakers, but time has been
harder on the evidence for "higher numerals."  I think the higher numerals
are just more likely to change.

However, I agree that numeration systems show certain natural states and
that simpler states were common until recently.  I suspect that numeral
systems were fairly sophisticated in Eastern North America with the
beginning of widespread trading networks and horticulture.

I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts.  Since sets were
usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow.  On
the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
use of bundles of sticks to represent honors.  Men are reported to have
recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks.  The
handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept?  How widespread is 'box' in this sense?  I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.


From jfu at centrum.cz  Wed Jan 18 08:04:35 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:04:35 +0100
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060117224101.16138.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.090435.0100.>

Dear Jonathan

 

I agree with Rory and John that there most likely isn't a term specifically
for "zero" in Lakota.

I tried eliciting "zero" with native speakers on several occasions. The
reply always involved wanjini or takuni (tagni). 

When exchanging phone numbers in Lakota I encountered tagni in most cases.

 

Best

 

Jan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Holmes
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:41 PM
To: Siouan List
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero


I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric concept of
"0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric terms
beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed.
 
While I know of the Lakota terms such as...
 
wanji'ni = none
takuni = nothing
 
...is this the same as "0" (zero)?
 
Just wondering,
Jonathan


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Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Wed Jan 18 09:08:04 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:08:04 +0100
Subject: concept of zero
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.100804.0100.>

 >  I was curious if anyone is aware of a Lakota term for the numeric 
concept
of "0" (zero). Most Lakota/English dictionaries I have read give numeric
terms beginning with "1" (one), and do not have "0" (zero) listed. <<


I really would have wondered had I retrieved the concept of zero in 
Native American languages (at least of northern America). Even the great 
and highly sophisticated Chinese culture never ever knew it, be it in 
mathematical terms or display of numbers. Their word expressing 'zero', 
though, is quite interesting ;-)

If you like to, you might have a look at my pages (Quileute School Project):

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/school/DIGITS.HTML

Just my two cents

Alfred


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 18 18:23:51 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:23:51 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601172305160.11891@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.102351.0800.>



Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.
   
  John,
  If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
   
  "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

Hope it helps,
  Jonathan




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































		
---------------------------------
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 Photo Books. You design it and we?ll bind it!
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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 18:49:26 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:26 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.104926.0800.>

In regards to the concept of a word for 'box' meaning 'thousand', I can 
report that in Miami-Illinois, an old way to say 'a thousand' is
mihtekolaakani, which was apparently a word for 'wooden box' or 'wooden
trunk'.

So I would say this metaphor must be something that dates to the early
contact period, presumably through trade, and that it spread among groups
speaking unrelated languages. I don't happen to know what exact wooden boxes
are being referenced here, though. Some standard thing the whites gave to
the tribes in trade? Someone must know that.

However, I wouldn't say that 'thousand' was a new concept, since there is
also a more common native construction for that, mataathswaahkwe 'one
thousand', literally 'ten hundreds' (mataathsw- = 'ten', -aahkwe =
'hundred'). (The exact same construction is also seen in Fox and Ojibwe.)

David


Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
interpretation is clearly meant.
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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Wed Jan 18 19:01:18 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:01:18 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.130118.0600.>

IOM "thousand" is also -koge- "box".  The elders explained that the box referred to the Army box of 1000 rounds of ammunition.
It seems, that somewhere, I saw a reference that "koge" originally used for a parflesche container.
Jimm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



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From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Jan 18 19:10:04 2006
From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:10:04 -0700
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <20060118182351.18698.qmail@web54504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.121004.0700.>

This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

>
>
> Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
> that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
> word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
> usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
> by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
> the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
> maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
> use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
> recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
> handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
> is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.
>
> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
> concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.
>
>   John,
>   If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
>
>   "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."
>
> Hope it helps,
>   Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> Be a friend...
> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos ? Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
>  Photo Books. You design it and we?ll bind it!


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 18 19:39:10 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:39:10 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601181207450.26671@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.113910.0800.>

John,
If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

"The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."

Hope it helps,
Jonathan


ROOD DAVID S <rood at spot.Colorado.EDU> wrote:  
This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it. Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped. If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

>
>
> Koontz John E wrote: ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
> that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
> word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
> usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
> by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
> the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
> maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
> use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
> recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
> handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
> is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.
>
> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
> concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.
>
> John,
> If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,
>
> "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each."
>
> Hope it helps,
> Jonathan

			
---------------------------------
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From jfu at centrum.cz  Wed Jan 18 19:41:42 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:41:42 +0100
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601181207450.26671@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.204142.0100.>

Hi David,

> This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out 
> there might be able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once 
> upon a time I heard that the Native American words for 
> 'thousand' often had something to do with cash boxes in which 
> silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If 
> that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.

This is interesting. 
It makes me wonder if perhaps the Lakota word for khokta' - 'thousand'
originates from khoka' - 'wood box, keg, barrel'


Jan


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 18 21:19:24 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:19:24 +0000
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF072E0CDD.7F0B36C0-ON862570FA.0001209E-862570FA.000C0F07@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.211924.0000.>

Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness"
ie "zero degrees centigrade"
Bruce

> 
>   osniocoka = ?? (couldn't find a back-translation)
> 
>   ta'kus^ni = 'nothing' (Riggs)
> 



		
___________________________________________________________ 
NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 21:59:07 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:59:07 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <20060118211924.67453.qmail@web26806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.155907.0600.>

> Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness"
> ie "zero degrees centigrade"
> Bruce

Neat!!  I hadn't thought of that, but it makes perfect sense.  But given
that this word is established by the beginning of the 20th century, in
Minnesota, isn't it more likely that it means "zero degrees Fahrenheit"?

Thanks for the insight!

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan 18 22:02:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:02:25 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.160225.0600.>

The modern day word for "1000" in Ponca is ku'ge. Ku'ge is also the word for "trunk" or "box". I have had several Ponca elders tell me that ku'ge for "1000" derived from the time treaty payments arrived as 1000 gold coins in a box. Interestingly, I once had an elderly Osage woman tell me that "ku'ge" for "trunk" derived from the verb "k'u" - to give away.....that they used to give away when the trunks of money arrived. Perhaps they are related?

Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

Tom Leonard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
  Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!
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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 18 22:07:21 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:07:21 +0000
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <OF8D123F8A.98CBCCEE-ON862570FA.00784798-862570FA.0077D559@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.220721.0000.>

Yes.  I'm sure you're right.  We used to use
Fahrenheight over here too, but have been affected by
the Europeans (Napoleon originally) and now think in
hundreds.  The Americans have remained truer to the
Anglo Saxon tradition
Bruce
--- Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:

> > Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the
> coldness"
> > ie "zero degrees centigrade"
> > Bruce
> 
> Neat!!  I hadn't thought of that, but it makes
> perfect sense.  But given
> that this word is established by the beginning of
> the 20th century, in
> Minnesota, isn't it more likely that it means "zero
> degrees Fahrenheit"?
> 
> Thanks for the insight!
> 
> Rory
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


From kdshea at ku.edu  Wed Jan 18 22:54:07 2006
From: kdshea at ku.edu (Shea, Kathleen Dorette)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:54:07 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.165407.0600.>

I'm far out west in Santa Barbara dealing with a family crisis, but I couldn't help putting in my two-cents' worth.  Most of the time, I've gotten the alternate translation "trunk" for kkuge "thousand" rather than "box."  The image I have in mind of a trunk, which might have been conveyed to me by one of my consultants, is one of a large parfleche-like container (of hide) used for storage of all kinds of items within the household.

Kathy Shea

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard
Sent: Wed 1/18/2006 4:02 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand
 
The modern day word for "1000" in Ponca is ku'ge. Ku'ge is also the word for "trunk" or "box". I have had several Ponca elders tell me that ku'ge for "1000" derived from the time treaty payments arrived as 1000 gold coins in a box. Interestingly, I once had an elderly Osage woman tell me that "ku'ge" for "trunk" derived from the verb "k'u" - to give away.....that they used to give away when the trunks of money arrived. Perhaps they are related?

Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

Tom Leonard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





  Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
  Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 23:02:34 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:02:34 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.150234.0800.>


Don't know about other Siouan languages, but in Miami, nkoti eehsipana 'one
raccoon' also means 'quarter dollar'.


Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding
tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents".
The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is
said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or
what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar
etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?
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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 18 23:06:47 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:06:47 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.150647.0800.>

And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan 
languages have that?


Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding
tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents".
The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is
said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or
what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar
etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jan 18 23:43:34 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:43:34 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <E1EzMLi-0001Zd-00@pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.174334.0600.>

> Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst
surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for
"25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka
itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count
a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do
we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

> Don't know about other Siouan languages, but in Miami, nkoti eehsipana
'one raccoon' also means 'quarter dollar'.

We've got mikka'ha idha'wa, or "raccoon-skin counter", in Omaha too.  It's
nice to see that it also appears in Algonquian.  I would guess that this
was the standard price paid for raccoon skins at some prolonged or critical
period of time in the early-mid 19th century, perhaps even at a particular
trading establishment.

It would be interesting to know when, and what the areal/ethnic
distribution of this calque may have been.  David, what can you tell us
about the movement history of the Miami in the 19th century?  Did they ever
get close to the eastern Nebraska-western Iowa region?  Also, what about
other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime', 'half-dime',
and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and Ponka
forms?

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jan 18 23:45:04 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:45:04 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.174504.0600.>

Re: O/P term for one thousand>>And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan languages have that?

The Ponca word for dollar is "wi bthu'ga" (one whole) or maN'ze ska wi bthu'ga (white metal one whole).  


      Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?


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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 00:07:23 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:07:23 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
In-Reply-To: <E1EzMPn-0002dH-00@pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.180723.0600.>

> And also, the Miami word for 'beaver' also means 'dollar'. Any Siouan
languages have that?

I don't recall ever seeing that one, and I have looked through several.

Didn't the market for beaver collapse about the 1820s?  If so, that might
suggest that the Miami 'beaver' word for 'dollar' was coined before that
time, since it suggests the sort of stable price you would expect if
trading houses were eagerly buying them.

Fletcher and La Flesche state on page 617 that beaver skins were sold for
$4-$6 in the middle of the 19th century.  Assuming that there was general
inflation as time went on even back then, and that prices didn't vary too
radically for different parts of the frontier at any given time, that would
also argue for an early date for this term.

Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 03:04:13 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:04:13 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <WED.18.JAN.2006.210413.0600.>

>>Also, what about
>>other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime', 'half-dime',
>>and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and Ponka
>>forms?

Ponca Money Names

penny = we'thawa zhi'de (to count - red)

nickle = shu'ga zhiN'ga (thick - small)

dime = bthe'ka zhiN'ga (thin - small)

quarter = mi'ka ha i'thawa -or- mi'ka ha i'tha -or- mi'ka itha'wa (raccoon
hide - to count)

half dollar = maNsaN thi'ha

seventy-five cents = mi'ka itha'wa tha'bthi (raccoon hide - to count -
three)

one dollar = wi bthu'ga (one - whole)


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jan 19 09:19:16 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:19:16 +0100
Subject: concept of zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.101916.0100.>

Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the coldness" ie "zero degrees 
centigrade"  Bruce <<

osni-o-choka

How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare) 
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?


Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 16:13:35 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:13:35 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0601172305160.11891@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.101335.0600.>

> Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
> Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an
old
> concept?  How widespread is 'box' in this sense?  I just noticed in the
> texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
> interpretation is clearly meant.

Good question!  The main reference I have is Fletcher and La Flesche, p.
617, and looking at it, I see where I made an error in my thesis referring
to it, the correction of which tends to favor your view that Siouan
languages did in fact have high numbers prior to contact:

"A thousand dollars was called kku'ge wiN (kku'ge, "box"; wiN, "one"), the
name originating from the custom of packing this number of silver dollars
in a small box for convenience of transportation.  In the case of payments
to Indian tribes by government agents the term for the number 1,000 was
gthe'boNhiwiNttoNga (gthe'boN, "ten"; hiwiN, "progressing toward one;"
wiNttoNga, "big")."

So it looks like they did have a native term for 1000, as well as the
shorter and more slangy trade calque "box".  This agrees very well with the
information David Costa posted yesterday (12:49PM) on Miami-Illinois.
Apparently native terms existed, but the local "box" term was probably used
for international dealings in each local pidgin.

Dating this usage is more problematic.  In my thesis, I had somehow
confounded F&LF's two separate statements into the notion that kku'ge
referred to the government treaty payments, which F&LF in fact deny.  On
the other hand, Howard's "The Ponca Tribe", cited by Jonathan Holmes, makes
that very claim for the Ponca.  Tom Leonard's Ponca informants support that
view.  Jimm Goodtracks' IOM informants refer it to Army ammunition boxes,
which also implies the government.  Summing this up with the Miami-Illinois
information offered by David, and considering the crude feel of the word, I
would favor the view that the international heyday of the "box" term was
early as he suggested, probably prior to 1820, and hence before the Omaha
treaty payments.  The term must have evolved separately in different
languages after that.  Thus, the Ponca used it for the treaty payments; the
Omaha did not, but kept it as an alternate numeric term along with a much
more windy native term; and the Iowa-Oto-Missouria transferred it to
1000-round Army ammunition boxes, as well as using it as the number 1000.

Rory


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Thu Jan 19 17:06:27 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:06:27 +0000
Subject: my two cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.170627.0000.>

Regarding money and counting, Dougf Parks informed me way back that 'box' = thousand in Pawnee and that irt referred to the silver dollars used in treaty payments (I don't know if it also does this in Arikara, or in more southerly Caddoan languages).  So the metaphor is shared between Chiwere, Dhegiha and Pawnee at least.  It looks like a loan-translation which was disseminated by people bilingual in more than one Native language (which raises the question: what's 'a thousand' in Plains Sign Language?).   One finds similar metaphors all over the US: both Hanis Coos and Hupa (and intervening languages??) used 'a stick' for 'hundred', for instance (I think there may be a connection with dentalium shells there).  

Dave Costa told me that Miami /ayaapia/ 'buck' also means dollar - loan translation from English?    Doug has observed to me that at least some money terms in Pawnee are straight from English /tupits/ for 50 cents, for instance.  

Anthony

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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 19 17:01:33 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:01:33 -0800
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.090133.0800.>

> It would be interesting to know when, and what the areal/ethnic distribution
> of this calque may have been.  David, what can you tell us about the movement
> history of the Miami in the 19th century?

It's fairly complicated, but the bottom line is that by 1832 all the
Illinois-speaking groups had been forced out of that state, eventually
ending up in Oklahoma via Kansas. In 1846 half the Miami were forcibly
removed from Indiana, also eventually ending up in Oklahoma via Kansas by
1867. Being much closer to the front end of Anglo colonization, the
Miami-Illinois-speaking groups were forced to move much earlier than the
Siouan-speaking groups to their west.

> Did they ever get close to the eastern Nebraska-western Iowa region?

No. The Illinois spent some time in eastern Iowa in the very early contact
period (the late 17th century), but that's about it.

We don't have to posit a scenario whereby these terms passed directly from
M-I-speaking groups to adjacent Siouan groups. They could just as well have
passed through some other intermediary languages on their way to Chiwere,
Dhegiha and Lakhota. Or perhaps this vocabulary started getting passed
around in the reservation period, when the Miami and Ponka were already in
Oklahoma? This would require someone whose specialty is history, which mine
isn't.

I wish I had better Algonquian data on this, but this usage of 'beaver' for
'dollar' and 'raccoon' for 'quarter' is around in other Algonquian
languages; the 'dollar' = 'beaver' equivalence is also seen in Potawatomi,
and BOTH 'dollar' = 'beaver' and 'quarter' = 'raccoon' are also found in
Kickapoo, the language that seems to share the most post-contact vocabulary
innovations with Miami-Illinois.

> Also, what about other monetary terms, like 'dollar', 'half-dollar', 'dime',
> 'half-dime', and 'penny'?  I wonder if these would also resemble the Omaha and
> Ponka forms?

Well, like I said, 'dollar' comes from the word for 'beaver', so Miami nkoti
amehkwa = 'one dollar' (compare Kickapoo nekotoomehkwe 'one dollar or
peso'). 'Half dollar' is napale shooli, literally 'half money' (shooli =
'money').

The other terms are less helpful; 'nickel' is from a verb meaning 'shiny
metal', and 'dime' is mataathswi cents, with borrowing of English 'cents'.

Dave


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 19 17:11:06 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:11:06 -0800
Subject: my two cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.091106.0800.>

Lord, I hope I didn't say that! It's Miami /amehkwa/ 'beaver' which means 
'dollar', not /ayaapia/.

Dave

> Dave Costa told me that Miami /ayaapia/ 'buck' also means dollar - loan
> translation from English?    


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 17:50:35 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:50:35 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.115035.0600.>

>Summing this up with the Miami-Illinois
> information offered by David, and considering the crude feel of the word,
I
> would favor the view that the international heyday of the "box" term was
> early as he suggested, probably prior to 1820, and hence before the Omaha
> treaty payments.  The term must have evolved separately in different
> languages after that.  Thus, the Ponca used it for the treaty payments;
the
> Omaha did not, but kept it as an alternate numeric term along with a much
> more windy native term; and the Iowa-Oto-Missouria transferred it to
> 1000-round Army ammunition boxes, as well as using it as the number 1000.
>

Just for the record, the following are the earliest Treaty dates that I can
find wherein a monetary (currency) settlement is mentioned:

Ponca - Treaty of 1858
Omaha - Treaty of 1854
Osage - Treaty of 1808
Kansa - Treaty of 1825
Quapaw - Treaty of 1824

Chippewa - Treaty of 1819
Comanche, Kiowa, and Apache - Treaty of 1853
Iowa - Treaty of 1824
Miami - Treaty of 1805
Oto & Missouria - Treaty of 1833
Pawnee - Treaty of 1857
Sac & Fox - Treaty of 1824
Sioux - Treaty of 1837
Winnebago - Treaty of 1832

If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From jfu at centrum.cz  Thu Jan 19 18:33:05 2006
From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan F. Ullrich)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:33:05 +0100
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.193305.0100.>

On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I am pleased to announce
the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak Lakota! Level 2 textbook.

The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the language a sequenced
follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which focused on
contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral activities, and TPR methods.

The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and writing Lakota and to
reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.

The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools systems across North and
South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable for adult self-study at
the beginner level, as well.

Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all the Lakota reservations
assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large part to this broad
community support, the LLC was recently awarded the Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota language means a great
deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and the numerous volunteers
working to create a new generation of proficient Lakota speakers.

The LLC focuses on producing effective language materials as well as on
initiating and supporting various language immersion activities that help
Native communities in their struggle to rebuild their languages. You can
help! Purchases of these materials directly aid these efforts.

Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or www.languagepress.com


Jan F. Ullrich
Lakota Language Consortium
www.lakhota.org
e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 20:36:39 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:36:39 -0600
Subject: O/P term for one thousand
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.143639.0600.>

Yes, that's what Mrs. Rowe said.  The Kaw term for 'thousand' is /z^aN kkoge/ literally 'wooden box'.  Silver dollars were shipped from the treasury in wooden crates of 1000.
 
Bob

> This is purely anecdotal, but some of you word sleuths out there might be
able to pursue it.  Somewhere, somehow, once upon a time I heard that the
Native American words for 'thousand' often had something to do with cash
boxes in which silver dollars (or maybe gold pieces) were shipped.  If
that's true, using 'box' for 1000 might have developed that way.


From Rgraczyk at aol.com  Thu Jan 19 21:19:17 2006
From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Randolph Graczyk)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:19:17 EST
Subject: my ten cents
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.161917.EST.>

The Crow for 'ten cents' is tennisee'te, a rare English borrowing that is 
assimilated to Crow phonology.

Randy
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From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 21:22:54 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:22:54 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.152254.0600.>

I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.  The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.
 
Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a hollow sound'.  
 
Bob
 
> If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jan 19 21:44:16 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:44:16 -0600
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.154416.0600.>

Also, I tend to think of OP bdhuga, Kaw bloga, etc. meaning 'one dollar', as referring back to the coins that were scored so they could be broken into eight parts or 'bits'.  "Pieces-of-eight."  Rory talked about these in his paper at the MSU Siouan Conference in East Lansing a few years back.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Thu 1/19/2006 3:22 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Lakota Concept of Zero


I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.  The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.
 
Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a hollow sound'.  
 
Bob
 
> If the origin of "trunk" is prior to 1820, as hypothesized - given the above
dates - I  wonder if in fact there may be some merit in what an elderly
Osage woman told me many years ago....that the word ku'ge for "trunk" was
derived from the Osage verb "k'u" - to give away. "Trunk" for "1000" is
certainly not an isolated case, it seems widespread. But most tribe never
saw trunks of 1000 coins until after 1820, most earlier treaties were for
less than 1000 dollars (or coins).


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Thu Jan 19 22:37:14 2006
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark-Awakuni Swetland)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:37:14 -0600
Subject: box
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.163714.0600.>

To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu

Subject RE: Lakota Concept of Zero

I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology. 

The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.


Perhaps a more likely relationship would be with the root kko- 'to make a 

hollow sound'. 


Bob



ALOHA Y'ALL

So how does ku'ge "box" relate to "drum"?

WibthahoN,

Uthixide

Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Anthropology/Ethnic Studies
Native American Studies
University of Nebraska
841 Oldfather Hall 
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
402-472-3455
FAX 402-472-9642
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu

UmoNhoN ie thethudi
Omaha Language Spoken Here
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jan 19 23:17:19 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:17:19 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.171719.0600.>

Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this? 
I need this for a teaching grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have a list, perhaps from a teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a reference citation or two?

Thanks,
Tom Leonard
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From pustetrm at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 20 02:04:31 2006
From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:04:31 -0800
Subject: naked
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.19.JAN.2006.180431.0800.>

ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know for 'naked' off the top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the existence of competing terms, of course.
   
  Regina
  

"How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare) 
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?


Alfred





		
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Jan 20 09:00:40 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W=2E_T=FCting=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:00:40 +0100
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.100040.0100.>

 > ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know for 'naked' off the 
top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the existence of competing 
terms, of course.
 
Regina <<


 >> "How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare)
related to this idea? Is it just homophonic? <<<<


Buechel gives both hacho'la (cho'la: destitute, without, not having) and 
choka'la. But there's also haco'cola (naked, as said of men), lit. 
maybe: 'soft-skinned' fr. coco' (soft, as mud) and coco'la (soft)?


Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Fri Jan 20 13:06:25 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:06:25 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <000001c61d4e$838c4360$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.070625.0600.>

> Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in
Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this?
I need this for a teaching grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have
a list, perhaps from a teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a
reference citation or two?

I could probably come up with a fairly good list off the top of my head for
a start.  Or, we've been working on a dictionary project at UNL, pulling
out all the words in the first several stories in Dorsey.  I think we have
over four hundred words by now.  I could go through that and pull out
anything that I would subjectively consider a common verb.  Would that be
useful?  And if so, would you want stative verbs as well as active ones?

Rory


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:23:27 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:23:27 +0000
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
In-Reply-To: <43D0A6B8.6070003@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.132327.0000.>

Si-chola also means 'bare-foot' although it looks like
'footless' and could perhaps be a derivatiuon from
si-ha chola ie 'withouty foot covering
Bruce
--- "Alfred W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

>  > ha-cho'la  'skin-lacking' is the only term I know
> for 'naked' off the 
> top of my head -- which doesn't rule out the
> existence of competing 
> terms, of course.
>  
> Regina <<
> 
> 
>  >> "How's choka' (empty, without anything) and
> choka'la (naked, bare)
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic? <<<<
> 
> 
> Buechel gives both hacho'la (cho'la: destitute,
> without, not having) and 
> choka'la. But there's also haco'cola (naked, as said
> of men), lit. 
> maybe: 'soft-skinned' fr. coco' (soft, as mud) and
> coco'la (soft)?
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 
> 
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:40:07 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:40:07 +0000
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
In-Reply-To: <008501c61d26$daf06c30$7202a8c0@ullrichnet>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.134007.0000.>

Dear Jan
Congratulations.  If you send me the publication
details, I'll order a copy from here
Yours
Bruce
--- "Jan F. Ullrich" <jfu at centrum.cz> wrote:

> 
> 
> On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I
> am pleased to announce
> the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak
> Lakota! Level 2 textbook.
> 
> The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the
> language a sequenced
> follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which
> focused on
> contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral
> activities, and TPR methods.
> 
> The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and
> writing Lakota and to
> reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.
> 
> The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools
> systems across North and
> South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable
> for adult self-study at
> the beginner level, as well.
> 
> Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all
> the Lakota reservations
> assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large
> part to this broad
> community support, the LLC was recently awarded the
> Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
> The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota
> language means a great
> deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and
> the numerous volunteers
> working to create a new generation of proficient
> Lakota speakers.
> 
> The LLC focuses on producing effective language
> materials as well as on
> initiating and supporting various language immersion
> activities that help
> Native communities in their struggle to rebuild
> their languages. You can
> help! Purchases of these materials directly aid
> these efforts.
> 
> Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or
> www.languagepress.com
> 
> 
> Jan F. Ullrich
> Lakota Language Consortium
> www.lakhota.org
> e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org
> 
> 
> 
> 



		
___________________________________________________________ 
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 20 13:48:48 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:48:48 +0000
Subject: concept of zero
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.134848.0000.>

It is strange that the cho-la 'empty, without' and the
choka 'middle' are partly homophonous.  I have never
seen a connection suggested.  The 'without' term is
cho- or cho-la, where the -la is presumably the
diminutive which often means 'no more' 'enough' as in
henala 'only those' 'that is all' .  Comparative
Siouanists may be able to tell us more about the cho-
vs choka 
Bruce
--- "Alfred W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Osniochoka would mean "in the middle of the
> coldness" ie "zero degrees 
> centigrade"  Bruce <<
> 
> osni-o-choka
> 
> How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la
> (naked, bare) 
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?
> 
> 
> Alfred
> 
> 
> 



	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Fri Jan 20 15:13:41 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:13:41 -0600
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.091341.0600.>

 > I could probably come up with a fairly good list off the top of my head
for
> a start.  Or, we've been working on a dictionary project at UNL, pulling
> out all the words in the first several stories in Dorsey.  I think we have
> over four hundred words by now.  I could go through that and pull out
> anything that I would subjectively consider a common verb.  Would that be
> useful?  And if so, would you want stative verbs as well as active ones?
>
> Rory

Thank you, Rory. I have Dorsey's slip files on film, as well as vocabulary
from Frieda Hahn and others (not to mention my own files).  I am curious to
see what the most commonly used verbs are exactly, not only for inclusion in
a teaching grammar, but also for consideration in anthropological/linguistic
sense. I think it would be interesting to note.

Is any one aware of such a study being conducted?

Regarding the teaching grammar, the most frequently used verbs would be
obvious candidates to include in the work. I'm certainly a newbie to this
and I'm wondering if there are any guidelines/recommendations (for which
verbs to include) from teachers involved with teaching Indigenous
languages - or if anyone, in fact, has listed the most frequently used verbs
in OP.


From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Fri Jan 20 16:03:21 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:03:21 +0000
Subject: pieces of eight
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.160321.0000.>

You probably all know this numismatic stuff, but David Rood discussed coins of this kind in some Wichita work of his that I've seen.  The panish coins of this type were called tomi'n (where ' is my attempt to produce the acute accent), which is a common word for money in many languages of Mesoamerica.  In Spanish it derives from a form of the Arabic word for 'eight' (Bruce can doubtless cast mor light on which form this is in Arabic but I know the basic numeral in literary Arabic is thamanya).

Anthony



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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Sat Jan 21 02:17:22 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:17:22 -0600
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.JAN.2006.201722.0600.>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/


From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 22 06:56:32 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:56:32 -0800
Subject: "hethu's^ka" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.21.JAN.2006.225632.0800.>

Back in December 2003, there was a short discussion on this list about the possible meaning of the Ponca word "Hethuska" or "Hethu's^ka," currently used to describe a Ponca warrior/veteran organization also known as a "war dance society".
   
  Recently, I happened on a "folk etymology" for the meaning of the word from a member of the Ponca Hethuska Society in north-central Oklahoma, and wondered if it may provide any added clues for further discussion.
   
  The Ponca Hethuska member said that he was told by fellow society members that the origin of the term is said to mean "bare legs," and is in reference to the practice of removing the deerskin leggings by the old-time warriors of this society, before going into battle.
   
  Any thoughts?


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From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jan 22 10:11:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 04:11:25 -0600
Subject: "hethu's^ka" revisited
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JAN.2006.041125.0600.>

I think I've read this somewhere before, perhaps in Dr. Howard's (OSU) "The Ponca Tribe" (not sure). If it's origin is Howard, it wouldn't surprise me. A fair amount of the cultural information he published in "The Ponca Tribe", in my experience, met with "I never said that" or "where'd he get THAT?" from some of his very same "informants". The differences between what was published and what the same informants said less than ten years later was rather stark. So, I'd advise some caution if this is the original source. Also, this book has been around for quite some time and it's not unusual to find some of it's notions being reiterated now as "primary info".

Culturally "bare legs" doesn't make very much sense. Linguistically, I can't get there at all.

Culturally, "xthe xthe shka'de" or "xthe xthe u'skaN" makes the most sense (to me). However, I think the previous discussions here have demonstrated these to be linguistic nebulae.

Tom Leonard
  The Ponca Hethuska member said that he was told by fellow society members that the origin of the term is said to mean "bare legs," and is in reference to the practice of removing the deerskin leggings by the old-time warriors of this society, before going into battle.

  Any thoughts?
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From BARudes at aol.com  Mon Jan 23 02:26:18 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:26:18 EST
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
Message-ID: <SUN.22.JAN.2006.212618.EST.>

For those who just couldn't get enough from _www.msnbc.com_ 
(http://www.msnbc.com) , there is more at:
 
_http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0120_060120_new_world_2.html_
 
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0120_060120_new_world_2.html) 
 
and
 
_http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/entertainment/performing_arts/_ 
(http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/entertainment/performing_arts/) 
 
Well, that's enough self-promotion for today.
 
Blair
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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 23 12:34:00 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:34:00 +0000
Subject: Blair (though not as Siouanist)
In-Reply-To: <260.58f83c4.310598ca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.JAN.2006.123400.0000.>

Thanks Blair that was all really interesting.  Is the
language in Black Robe anything like your Virginia
Algonquian?
Bruce



		
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From wiyakawi at netzero.net  Fri Jan 27 01:04:37 2006
From: wiyakawi at netzero.net (R.A.Cameron)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:04:37 -0700
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook
In-Reply-To: AAAAAEx6wQ90YlRMnHwy9l+fp/BEAyAA
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.180437.0700.>

Jan,

Thank you so much for sending me a book.  I also received the flyer the
other day and have shown it to the admin at my school.  I have not heard
back from them yet but I think we have a good chance of offering Lakota at
the school.

Thanks again for all your help.  Sorry about my emails filling up your
inbox.  For some reason, Outlook has been stalling emails in my outbox and
keeps sending them over and over again!

Take care,
Ruth 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jan F. Ullrich
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:33 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Level 2 Lakota language textbook



On behalf of the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), I am pleased to announce
the release of the Lakhotiya Woglaka Po! Speak Lakota! Level 2 textbook.

The Level 2 textbook provides young learners of the language a sequenced
follow up to the successful Level 1 textbook - which focused on
contextualizing vocabulary through images, oral activities, and TPR methods.

The Level 2 textbook shifts the focus to reading and writing Lakota and to
reinforcing vocabulary and sentence structures.

The textbooks are now in use by over twenty schools systems across North and
South Dakota.  Both of the textbooks are valuable for adult self-study at
the beginner level, as well.

Numerous native consultants and reviewers from all the Lakota reservations
assisted in developing these textbooks. Due in large part to this broad
community support, the LLC was recently awarded the Ken Hale Prize by SSILA.
The recognition of our work to revitalize the Lakota language means a great
deal to the communities we serve, the teachers, and the numerous volunteers
working to create a new generation of proficient Lakota speakers.

The LLC focuses on producing effective language materials as well as on
initiating and supporting various language immersion activities that help
Native communities in their struggle to rebuild their languages. You can
help! Purchases of these materials directly aid these efforts.

Please, visit us at: www.lakhota.org or www.languagepress.com


Jan F. Ullrich
Lakota Language Consortium
www.lakhota.org
e-mail: jfu at lakhota.org


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:28:39 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:28:39 -0700
Subject: Lakota Concept of Zero
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6018876FF@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.182839.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I tend to think that trying to relate kkoge to k?u is a folk etymology.
> The phonemes k? and kk cannot correspond in these languages.

I tend to agree.  And, for what it's worth, OP has ?i 'to give'
corresponding regularly to Osage k?u (with u being u-umlaut), Da k?u, etc.
Whereas the box words are OP kkuge, Os hkoke, Da khoka.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:33:38 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:33:38 -0700
Subject: concept of zero
In-Reply-To: <43CF5994.5070300@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183338.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, "Alfred W. T?ting" wrote:
> How's choka' (empty, without anything) and choka'la (naked, bare)
> related to this idea? Is it just homophonic?

I would assume that the connection is quite direct:  choka' in the gloss
'without anything; is equivalent to 'poor', and choka'=la is 'a little
poor; considered to be poor, as-one-might-say poor'.  Poverty breeds
nakedness.  One is literally, rather than figuratively, "without anything
to wear!"


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:37:10 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:37:10 -0700
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <000001c61d4e$838c4360$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183710.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> Can anyone advise a list of the most frequently used verbs in
> Omaha-Ponca? Anyone ever looked into this?  I need this for a teaching
> grammar that is in progress.  Does any one have a list, perhaps from a
> teaching syllabus? If not, can any one recommend a reference citation or
> two?

For a start I must have somewhere a frequency count of the words in
Dorsey 1890 & 1891, and, if not, it's easy to make one.  Of course, that's
for inflected forms, which is quite a different thing.  You want most
frequent stems, without regard to the inflection.  In addition, usage in
Dorsey's selection of texts might be quite different from conversational
usage, or usage in a different set of texts.  Perhaps usage in the letters
would be more like usage in conversation.

Is such a list available for any Siouan language?  Up to a point it might
be possible to substitute OP stems and have what you want.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:39:08 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:39:08 -0700
Subject: concept of zero -> naked
In-Reply-To: <20060120132327.37378.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.183908.0700.>

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, shokooh Ingham wrote:
> Si-chola also means 'bare-foot' although it looks like
> 'footless' and could perhaps be a derivation from
> si-ha chola ie 'withouty foot covering

Whereas in English bootless means 'useless'.

But isn't the process of using forms like 'footless' for
'foot-covering-less' something that occurs fairly frequently in language?


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:42:54 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:42:54 -0700
Subject: Most Frequently Used Verbs in OP
In-Reply-To: <002001c61dd4$198d4a00$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.184254.0700.>

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> Thank you, Rory. I have Dorsey's slip files on film, as well as vocabulary
> from Frieda Hahn and others (not to mention my own files).  I am curious to
> see what the most commonly used verbs are exactly, not only for inclusion in
> a teaching grammar, but also for consideration in anthropological/linguistic
> sense. I think it would be interesting to note.

It occurs to me that in the context of Siouan grammars one might also need
to consider not just verb stems, but certain kinds of derivation.   For
example, some of the instrumentals are very frequent and essentially
productive.  Because of their frequency and productivity they are
functionally (and practically) equivalent to some kinds of frequent verb
in, say, English.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Fri Jan 27 01:49:31 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:49:31 -0700
Subject: my two cents
In-Reply-To: <s3cfc71c.031@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.26.JAN.2006.184931.0700.>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Anthony Grant wrote:
> Doug has observed to me that at least some money terms in Pawnee are
> straight from English /tupits/ for 50 cents, for instance.

This is a bit surprising, perhaps an early case of rampant inflation - I
need a "smiley" here by way of apology to Tony - because in English -
American English, rather - it's a quarter, as in "two bits, four bits, six
bits, a dollar."  I agree with Bob that Rory's explanation of bdhuga
'whole' = 'dollar' in these terms is pretty convincing.