From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  1 00:18:18 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:18:18 -0700
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <79B76C45-BDA5-4246-84BD-3638B74EBDEC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2006.171818.0700.>

Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a great deal.
  Jonathan

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/echáNni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/anáyaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)  ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )]; "sece" =>/séce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham, 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these Enclitic
 Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood & Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17 ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C. Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by nature of immediately following word, or under certain other conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too much, or too little! :-)
 BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. 
    On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

  If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what this sentence means? 

Ecanni anayapsakte sece. 


                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































 		
---------------------------------
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul  1 00:32:39 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 10:32:39 +1000
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <20060701001818.38784.qmail@web54506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.103239.1000.>

You are most welcome. However, please note that my citation of the  
title of the Smithsonian Inst. multi-volume "Handbook" should have  
read "Handbook of North American INDIANS". Sorry about that! :)  
Clive. P.S. May I inquire what is your own area of specialization &  
expertise?
On 01/07/2006, at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

> Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a  
> great deal.
> Jonathan
>
> Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you :  
> It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU  
> (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will  
> transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between  
> Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to  
> reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks  
> stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/echáNni/, Adverb, meaning "soon;  
> early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/anáyaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS.,  
> meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which  
> had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)   
> ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal  
> Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )];  
> "sece" =>/séce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham,  
> 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or  
> Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these  
> Enclitic Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort  
> of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section  
> 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood &  
> Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17  
> ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American  
> Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C.  
> Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short  
> "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as  
> Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel  
> which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by  
> nature of immediately following word, or under certain other  
> conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and  
> "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully  
> understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of  
> some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too  
> much, or too little! :-) BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical  
> conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some.  
> Regards, Clive Bloomfield.
> On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
>
>> If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what  
>> this sentence means?
>>
>> Ecanni anayapsakte sece.
>>
>>
>> Be a friend...
>> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
>> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>>
>>
>> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
>
>
>
>
> Be a friend...
> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>
>
> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  1 04:17:52 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:17:52 -0700
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <C8A3A0A5-4484-487A-82B1-71C9BE2CB52F@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2006.211752.0700.>

I have a background in Cultural Anthropology and Ethnohistory.

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:  You are most welcome. However, please note that my citation of the title of the Smithsonian Inst. multi-volume "Handbook" should have read "Handbook of North American INDIANS". Sorry about that! :) Clive. P.S. May I inquire what is your own area of specialization & expertise? 
    On 01/07/2006, at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

    Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a great deal.
  Jonathan

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/echáNni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/anáyaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)  ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )]; "sece" =>/séce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham, 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these Enclitic
 Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood & Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17 ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C. Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by nature of immediately following word, or under certain other conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too much, or too little! :-)
 BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. 
    On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

  If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what this sentence means? 

Ecanni anayapsakte sece. 


                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Jul  1 09:26:58 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:26:58 +0200
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <79B76C45-BDA5-4246-84BD-3638B74EBDEC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.112658.0200.>

Clive,
I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not 
[ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning: 
[ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water

What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is 
called...)


Alfred


Am 01.07.2006 um 00:54 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It 
> IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) 
> WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will transcribe and 
> gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, 
> into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation 
> less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ 
> "ecanni"=>/echáNni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";   ["anayapsa kte" 
> =>/anáyaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) 
> (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been 
> suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)  (...)

> On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
>
>> If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what 
>> this sentence means?
>>
>> Ecanni anayapsakte sece.
>>
>>
>> Be a friend...
>> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
>> go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>>  
>>
>> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul  1 18:18:49 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 04:18:49 +1000
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <a2919b7620b71b60bd9a4a6572e9df9b@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.041849.1000.>

Hello Alfred, Perhaps we have different editions of Buechel-Manhart :  
Mine is the 2002 Ed. , and on Page 20, (mid-page; LH column) has :  
"anapsa /anáps^a/ (va) : to break into a laugh after it has been  
suppressed -- anaps^aps^a (vn redup) : to bubble or boil up, as  
bubbles on foul water when disturbed." I wonder if any of the experts  
here might have any further info. on this verb? Tanyan awanic'iglakin  
kta wachin, toks^a akhe, Clive.   P.S. : I wish someone would do a  
Ph.D. level study of the Lakhota style of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's  
Lakhota novella : "S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He" [The Bringer of  
the Mystery Dog]. The sheer beauty & graceful sweep of his  
"cinematic" sentences continues to amaze & delight me. As a  
translator, IMVHO, he leaves Anne Nolan Clark's charming but slight  
children's tale far behind him, and creates an original work of art!
On 01/07/2006, at 7:26 PM, A.W. Tüting wrote:

> Clive,
> I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not  
> [ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning:  
> [ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water
>
> What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is  
> called...)
>
>
> Alfred
>
>
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Jul  1 18:59:03 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 20:59:03 +0200
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <EF477EBF-406D-43BE-8794-F3CB51F0C4DE@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.205903.0200.>

Hello Clive,

I checked my paper copy of Buechel-Manhart (2002) and it's like quoted 
by you. There seems to be a typo in the source I'd looked it up first.

I'd support your 'wish' regarding Sunka wan wakan agli k'un he. Never 
encountered such a 'European- style' Lakota text written by a native 
speaker. Great!

T.a.

Alfred

Am 01.07.2006 um 20:18 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Alfred, Perhaps we have different editions of Buechel-Manhart : 
> Mine is the 2002 Ed. , and on Page 20, (mid-page; LH column) has : 
> "anapsa /anáps^a/ (va) : to break into a laugh after it has been 
> suppressed -- anaps^aps^a (vn redup) : to bubble or boil up, as 
> bubbles on foul water when disturbed." I wonder if any of the experts 
> here might have any further info. on this verb? Tanyan awanic'iglakin 
> kta wachin, toks^a akhe, Clive.   P.S. : I wish someone would do a 
> Ph.D. level study of the Lakhota style of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's 
> Lakhota novella : "S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He" [The Bringer of the 
> Mystery Dog]. The sheer beauty & graceful sweep of his "cinematic" 
> sentences continues to amaze & delight me. As a translator, IMVHO, he 
> leaves Anne Nolan Clark's charming but slight children's tale far 
> behind him, and creates an original work of art!
> On 01/07/2006, at 7:26 PM, A.W. Tüting wrote:
>
>> Clive,
>> I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not 
>> [ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning: 
>> [ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water
>>
>> What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is 
>> called...)
>>
>>
>> Alfred
>>
>>
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 08:45:32 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:45:32 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <e219b466521035d50e398f0ca7b5f5a8@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.184532.1000.>

Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 'European- 
style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary FORM  
(novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back in  
the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me the  
only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman alphabet) :  the  
grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences, his  
"Weltanschaung" (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota", being in my  
view completely unlike the grammatical/thought structure of any  
European language of which I am aware, even of non-Indo-European ones  
like Finnish, Estonian, Turkish. Hungarian, or even Basque. (I am not  
putting myself forth as an expert in any of those languages, but I  
know enough about  the way they "work".) And yet neither does it  
resemble the structure of the language as it is used in the Deloria  
or Bushotter Tales. IMHO, it would seem to have more in common with  
the modern Lakhota style of Ivan Starr's 'Lakota Eyapaha". I would  
love to know more about Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk, wouldn't you? Who was he  
raised by? Who were his parents & grandparents? Any storytellers in  
the family? How traditional a background did he come from? What  
education had he acquired? What books, if any, had he read? Does the  
first name "Emil" perhaps indicate some European strain, not "full- 
blood" : French/German/Swiss/Belgian? All I have been able to  
ascertain so far is that he was an Oglala, an assistant at a trading  
post on Rez. (Pine Ridge, I think) in the 1920's & '30's, who was  
apparently remembered with much affection, a Catholic "catechist &  
prayer-leader" in 1930-31, and an interpreter who was engaged 1) by  
the famous John Neihardt in the course of interviewing Nicholas Black  
Elk in '30/'31; 2) Employed as one of 5 interpreters by Eleanor  
Hinman & Mari Sandoz in their work in the same years with Oglala  
informants on Crazy Horse. 3) Engaged as Lakhota interpreter for a  
number of bilingual children's books by the B.I.A. teacher & author  
Ann Nolan Clark, published by the Bureau in the '40's. IF I am right  
about his use of Lakhota, he is a distinguished author & artist,  
whose stature awaits due recognition! If I am wrong, I would like to  
have it demonstrated, by a Lakhota scholar, or other informed source.  
In fact, I would love to analyse/discuss the grammar & syntax of some  
of his sentences with any scholars here who might be interested. :)  
Here is a link to the book, with interlinear translation(s)  
available :  http://lol.iyapi.net/bomd.php  Best regards, Clive  
Bloomfield.
On 02/07/2006, at 4:59 AM, A.W. Tüting wrote:

> Hello Clive,
>
> I checked my paper copy of Buechel-Manhart (2002) and it's like  
> quoted by you. There seems to be a typo in the source I'd looked it  
> up first.
>
> I'd support your 'wish' regarding Sunka wan wakan agli k'un he.  
> Never encountered such a 'European- style' Lakota text written by a  
> native speaker. Great!
>
> T.a.
>
> Alfred
>
>>>
>>>

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul  2 10:15:25 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:15:25 +0200
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <C0D3A65E-3F27-4447-9841-69C2E9BA7026@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.121525.0200.>

Clive chiye,

I was well aware of 'stirring up your contradiction' by using this 
short term of 'European-style' ;-) which actually doesn't cover exactly 
what I wanted to express with it. The text is best Lakota in structure 
and syntax - but, IMVHO, it's the quite sophisticated ('epic') way of 
displaying the narration (as you call it yourself: 'cinematic'!) that 
to me seems like having its roots in the Old World, so to speak 
('European-style' is too narrow a term for it and doesn't really 
express what I mean). Okay, that's only my very personal feeling and 
perception :)

T. a.

Alfred

P.S. I wouldn't have expected a narrative style like this in a Native 
American language as I e.g. hadn't  in 'classical' Chinese.


Am 02.07.2006 um 10:45 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 
> 'European-style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary 
> FORM (novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back 
> in the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me the 
> only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman alphabet) :  the 
> grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences, his "Weltanschaung" 
> (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota", being in my view completely 
> unlike the grammatical/thought structure of any European language of 
> which I am aware, (...)


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 13:07:08 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 23:07:08 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <58e5f28e718010eb4d069ae3e0792ae6@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.230708.1000.>

Dear Alfred chiye na khola, You may well be right - I think I am  
getting an inkling of what you are alluding to there. The use of  
language itself, the Lakhota structures employed seem to me such a  
highly sophisticated, "virtuoso" performance in the language, as it  
were, by someone who understands Lakhota at such a profound "gut"  
level, that one feels it could only emanate from the pen of a native,  
(& we even have his name), and yet ..... there does seem to be a  
certain dissonance between the cultural context & background of a  
Lakhota native speaker of the 1940's, and the "mental world" of that  
text. One realizes he is translating a European text, but that seems,  
to me at any rate, quite inadequate to account for what I am  
convinced is the disparity of "calibre" & quality between the  
Original (which IS worthy, but fairly banal & unpretentious) & the  
Version (which belongs in a different literary class altogether, in  
my view.) It is really quite an enigma to me. He must have had a  
marvellously original mind, I fancy! Being a pretty useful  
interpreter, by all accounts, he must have had more than a little  
linguistic insight, (not to mention talent.) But sometimes as we all  
know, brilliance can seem sometimes, inexplicably, to emerge from  
"nowhere" - this world is "passing strange" at times, is it not?.  
Perhaps I AM overstating my case, but it is a pretty difficult one to  
substantiate without something like a statistical (word/phrase/ 
construction-frequency-based) stylistic analysis of the entire text,  
and a detailed comparison of it with other modern Lakhota prose  
compositions. That class of text does not exactly seem to be a huge  
field though, does it? Until I know better, I will continue studying  
& learning from Mr. Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's beautiful, layered  
sentences with excited fascination! It's a bit like trying to "prove"  
that an impressionist painting (say), or a violin partita is a  
masterpiece : One either "feels" it, or don't bother! Enthusiasm is  
great, but I would like to be able to back up intuitions with hard  
facts!        Toksha akhe wanunkichiyankin kte lo, Clive.
On 02/07/2006, at 8:15 PM, A.W. Tüting wrote:

> Clive chiye,
>
> I was well aware of 'stirring up your contradiction' by using this  
> short term of 'European-style' ;-) which actually doesn't cover  
> exactly what I wanted to express with it. The text is best Lakota  
> in structure and syntax - but, IMVHO, it's the quite sophisticated  
> ('epic') way of displaying the narration (as you call it yourself:  
> 'cinematic'!) that to me seems like having its roots in the Old  
> World, so to speak ('European-style' is too narrow a term for it  
> and doesn't really express what I mean). Okay, that's only my very  
> personal feeling and perception :)
>
> T. a.
>
> Alfred
>
> P.S. I wouldn't have expected a narrative style like this in a  
> Native American language as I e.g. hadn't  in 'classical' Chinese.
>
>
> Am 02.07.2006 um 10:45 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:
>
>> Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 'European- 
>> style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary FORM  
>> (novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back  
>> in the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me  
>> the only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman  
>> alphabet) :  the grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences,  
>> his "Weltanschauung" (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota",  
>> being in my view completely unlike the grammatical/thought  
>> structure of any European language of which I am aware, (...)


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jul  2 13:31:44 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:31:44 -0500
Subject: Dictionary Database
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.083144.0500.>

Does any one on the list here know anything about the Indiana Dictionary
Database (IDD) found at:
http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/software/index.shtml

>>From their website:

A multimedia dictionary database program that has been created specifically
for compiling dictionaries of American Indian languages. The program, now in
its final stages of development, is designed to support standard textual
linguistic material as well as sound data, graphical images, and video
clips.

Specifically, we're trying to figure out how one could incorporate such a
program into a website. Any web-wizards out there? Have any students that
are web-wizards?

Is anyone using a dictionary database that has audio capabilities and can be
used on a website? Any recommendations?


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jul  2 14:33:26 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:33:26 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.093326.0500.>

I am not familiar with the text to which you are referring but I'd like to
suggest that "the cultural context & background of a Lakhota native speaker
of the 1940's, and (their) 'mental world' " might be a whole lot different
than we might think. By the 1940's many Indian people, many of whom were
fluent speakers of their own languages, had exposure to European texts and
were voracious readers.

I once attended an Otoe wake service where an old man (I believe it was
Truman Dailey, if  I remember correctly) arose to give a speech. During his
speech the old man repeated John Donne's famous Meditation XVII ("No man is
an island, entire of itself......and therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls. It tolls for thee") nearly word-for-word, the entire verse
from memory. The only difference was he didn't say "Europe is the less"; he
said "our land" instead of  "Europe". Even more remarkable, he then repeated
it in Otoe (!), all without a script or prompt.

I asked a few Ponca elders that I was sitting with about their reaction to
his speech. Their reaction was something like "Oh! Did that come out of a
book? You know that guy spends a lot of time reading. He went to the
university. It sure was pretty though." I asked about the Otoe translation
and they said "He just repeated himself - said the same thing - sure was
pretty." It was, without question, one of the more remarkable and moving
speeches I've ever heard.


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 15:14:56 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 01:14:56 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c69de4$7af32fe0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.011456.1000.>

Hello Tom, You're quite right, of course. One should make no  
assumptions, about the "mental world" of other people, especially  
across cultures. Apologies to any Native American people here for  
perhaps sounding patronising, or dismissive. I could have put it a  
whole lot better. Indeed, maybe Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk was just such a  
highly educated man, of great literary sophistication, as was that  
wonderful Donne-quoting Otoe gentleman you mention. That must have  
been really something!  My point was to suggest that Emil Afraid-Of- 
Hawk was a remarkable writer, & in that sense, not average - and that  
his TEXT is an extraordinary use of Lakota, and perhaps reflects a  
person with an out of the ordinary mind & background. Mea culpa. Clive.
On 03/07/2006, at 12:33 AM, Tom Leonard wrote:

> I am not familiar with the text to which you are referring but I'd  
> like to
> suggest that "the cultural context & background of a Lakhota native  
> speaker
> of the 1940's, and (their) 'mental world' " might be a whole lot  
> different
> than we might think. By the 1940's many Indian people, many of whom  
> were
> fluent speakers of their own languages, had exposure to European  
> texts and
> were voracious readers.
>
> I once attended an Otoe wake service where an old man (I believe it  
> was
> Truman Dailey, if  I remember correctly) arose to give a speech.  
> During his
> speech the old man repeated John Donne's famous Meditation XVII  
> ("No man is
> an island, entire of itself......and therefore never send to know  
> for whom
> the bell tolls. It tolls for thee") nearly word-for-word, the  
> entire verse
> from memory. The only difference was he didn't say "Europe is the  
> less"; he
> said "our land" instead of  "Europe". Even more remarkable, he then  
> repeated
> it in Otoe (!), all without a script or prompt.
>
> I asked a few Ponca elders that I was sitting with about their  
> reaction to
> his speech. Their reaction was something like "Oh! Did that come  
> out of a
> book? You know that guy spends a lot of time reading. He went to the
> university. It sure was pretty though." I asked about the Otoe  
> translation
> and they said "He just repeated himself - said the same thing -  
> sure was
> pretty." It was, without question, one of the more remarkable and  
> moving
> speeches I've ever heard.


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Sun Jul  2 17:15:29 2006
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:15:29 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <C0D3A65E-3F27-4447-9841-69C2E9BA7026@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.121529.0500.>

It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are 
talking about:

Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
Indian Life Readers
Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk

Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
There still are Buffalo (1942)
all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post (1944)

I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version of 
Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not too easy 
to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.

Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty 
complex text.

It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In the 
material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says this:  
Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the older 
generation, translated this series of books.  But there is more than a 
page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing Soldier.  In 
those days, the artist was more important than the translator, it 
seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with children's books in 
general.

Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 23:09:15 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:09:15 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.090915.1000.>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 3 July 2006 8:21:40 AM
> To: rwd0002 at unt.edu
> Subject: Re: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
>
> Hello again Willem & mitakuyepi, Mr.Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk gets a  
> brief mention here : 1) http://www.rootsweb.com/~sdshanno/ 
> george_malone.htm 2) and in Section 3. of this Italian-language  
> website about Black Elk ("Alce Nero") http:// 
> www.alleanzacattolica.org/indici/articoli/introvignem237_238.htm  I  
> did not know who George Malone was, but one gathers he was a  
> storekeeper at Porcupine circa. 1919, reminiscing in 1971. Regards,  
> Clive.
> On 03/07/2006, at 3:15 AM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:
>
>> It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are  
>> talking about:
>>
>> Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
>> Indian Life Readers
>> Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk
>>
>> Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
>> Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
>> The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
>> The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
>> The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
>> The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
>> There still are Buffalo (1942)
>> all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
>> Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
>> Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post  
>> (1944)
>>
>> I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version  
>> of Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not  
>> too easy to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.
>>
>> Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty  
>> complex text.
>>
>> It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In  
>> the material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says  
>> this:  Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the  
>> older generation, translated this series of books.  But there is  
>> more than a page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing  
>> Soldier.  In those days, the artist was more important than the  
>> translator, it seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with  
>> children's books in general.
>>
>> Willem
>

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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 23:08:36 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:08:36 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.090836.1000.>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 3 July 2006 8:06:01 AM
> To: rwd0002 at unt.edu
> Subject: Re: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
>
> Hello Willem, Thank you for your reply. The book in question was  
> "Bringer of the Mystery Dog" (S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He).1944.  
> (Indian Life Readers, Sioux Series, 6.) Lawrence Kansas, : Haskell  
> Institute, U.S. indian Service, Education Division,) Here are some  
> links, first to the text (with interlinear multilingual  
> translation, & in various Lakhota orthographies) :           1)  
> http://lol.iyapi.net/bomd.php    , and then to "A Libris.com"  
> listing various copies of the book, mentioning Ann Nolan Clark, and  
> the Illustrator Oscar Howe, but not a "peep" (as far as one can  
> see) about the distinguished Lakhota translator Emil Afraid-Of- 
> Hawk! :                                                                
>                                                                        
>                                                                      
> 2)  http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=810378&wauth=ann% 
> 20nolan% 
> 20clark&matches=3&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title                    
>                                                                     
> As a matter of fact, I first obtained his name from one of your  
> Bibliographies : "100 Years of Lakota Linguistics (1887-1997)  
> (1988) - for which I am very obligedl to you! I have also profited  
> greatly from your paper on Noun-incorporation, and your 1983 MA  
> thesis on the Syntax of the Lakhota Noun-Phrase. Hena un lila  
> philamayaye lo! I like to see credit given where it is due, and I  
> believe it is long, long overdue for Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk. Toksha  
> akhe, Clive Bloomfield from Melbourne, Australia.  P.S. Have you  
> ever considered publishing your 1984 paper on Relative clauses in  
> Lakota? I'd love to read it.
> On 03/07/2006, at 3:15 AM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:
>
>> It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are  
>> talking about:
>>
>> Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
>> Indian Life Readers
>> Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk
>>
>> Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
>> Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
>> The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
>> The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
>> The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
>> The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
>> There still are Buffalo (1942)
>> all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
>> Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
>> Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post  
>> (1944)
>>
>> I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version  
>> of Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not  
>> too easy to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.
>>
>> Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty  
>> complex text.
>>
>> It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In  
>> the material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says  
>> this:  Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the  
>> older generation, translated this series of books.  But there is  
>> more than a page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing  
>> Soldier.  In those days, the artist was more important than the  
>> translator, it seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with  
>> children's books in general.
>>
>> Willem
>

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul  3 09:12:24 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:12:24 +0200
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <0F583786-20C9-467D-BDE5-E5D694B21FCC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.111224.0200.>

Clive,

with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr. Emil  
Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are in  
English only, aren't they?
(Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta Yo!",  
which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I for one had  
liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my interest in this  
powerful language.)

"No man is an island, entire of itself;..." is a wonderful and  
venerable old text of deepest truth, expressing ideas very familiar to  
Native American people - e.g. Mitakuye oyas'in (but also to Far Eastern  
philosophy, e.g. "Pick up a blade of grass and all the worlds will come  
along with it!"
http://www.fa-kuan.de/PREFACE.HTML, http://www.fa-kuan.de/VORWORT.HTML)

I'm most grateful for Tom mentioning this text, that, IMHO, could as  
well have been composed in, say, Lakota originally.
Clive misun, maybe this example can help me explain what I actually  
wanted to say with my (ill-fitting) term of 'European-style' which  
wasn't in any case meant derogatory with regard to Native people.  
IMVHO, Lakota unfolds its genuine power in sermon/speech-like texts  
like these rather than in epic narration - always reminding me of  
Ancient Greek, Latin etc., the latter having profoundly shaped e.g.  
German (but even Hungarian!) syntax in the sense of abominable  
'Schachtelsatzbildung', a feature since long left behind in English.
Also remember the famous and powerful speech "I have a dream..." which  
could be appropriately given in Lakota as well. (Cf. Lojban .i mi  
pacna... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban).

Toksa ake

Alfred le miye lo


Alfred

Am 03.07.2006 um 01:08 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> (...) and then to "A Libris.com" listing various copies of the book,  
> mentioning Ann Nolan Clark, and the Illustrator Oscar Howe, but not a  
> "peep" (as far as one can see) about the distinguished Lakhota  
> translator Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk! :                                      
>                                                                        
>                                                                        
>                         2)   
> http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm? 
> qwork=810378&wauth=ann%20nolan%20clark&matches=3&qsort=r&cm_re=works*li 
> sting*title 
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jul  3 10:09:59 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 20:09:59 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.200959.1000.>

"Sorry 'bout that, chief!" (Maxwell Smart. c.1967 :-) ) Here's a  
better addy with locations of copies of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's books  
held in U.S., and other libraries. Interlibrary loan? Clive.
On 03/07/2006, at 7:12 PM, A.W. Tüting wrote:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
> Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are  
> in English only, aren't they?
> (Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
> interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta  
> Yo!", which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I  
> for one had liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my  
> interest in this powerful language.)
>
>
> Toksa ake
>
> Alfred le miye lo
>
>
> Alfred
>
>

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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jul  3 12:32:20 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 22:32:20 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.223220.1000.>

Oops again!  Try this  
one :                                                                    
                                                             http:// 
www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ 
search;jsessionid=4CF8A4C7DED9CF2E3E97368B20E9C8B3.one?q=au%3AEmil+au% 
3AAfraid-of-Hawk&qt=hot_author
On 03/07/2006, at 7:12 PM, A.W. Tüting wrote:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
> Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are  
> in English only, aren't they?
> (Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
> interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta  
> Yo!", which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I  
> for one had liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my  
> interest in this powerful language.)
>
>
> Alfred
>
> Am 03.07.2006 um 01:08 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:
>

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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  3 16:06:32 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: 1877 Lord's Prayer - Osage
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.110632.0500.CQCQCQ1@EARTHLINK.NET>

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From linguista at gmail.com  Wed Jul  5 04:03:36 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:03:36 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUL.2006.230336.0500.>

I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is:

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or
not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
"to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is it
actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through Dorsey
but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights!

- Bryan Gordon
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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul  5 15:22:18 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:22:18 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.102218.0500.>

Gaaghe 'make' has taken on the role of a secondary causative in most if not all Dhegiha dialects.  It does not have the 'by striking' prefix -- that was simply a mistake on Hahn's part.  Wachi 'dance' has an aspirated /ch/.  I suppose one could tell from examining Dorsey (1890) whether this usage was common 120 yrs. ago or whether it might be a feature of language endangerment.  
 
Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon
Sent: Tue 7/4/2006 11:03 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: OP dancing


I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner; I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is: 

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe" "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe - thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai. 

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights! 

- Bryan Gordon


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 15:45:06 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:45:06 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607042103w210b5adoddf11264036013b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.104506.0500.>

Hi Bryan,

I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
not conjugate at all.  The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb.  So
apparently they added -gaghe at the end to soften it and make it clear that
they were talking about dancing, and not some other social activity.  I
doubt that you could say "wac^Hi'ppaghe", as this could too easily be
misinterpreted in the way you are trying to avoid.  To say 'I dance', you
might have to resort to something awful like "wac^Hi'gaghe ppa'ghe".

Rory




                                                                           
             "Bryan Gordon"                                                
             <linguista at gmail.                                             
             com>                                                       To 
             Sent by:                  siouan at lists.colorado.edu           
             owner-siouan at list                                          cc 
             s.colorado.edu                                                
                                                                   Subject 
                                       OP dancing                          
             07/04/2006 11:03                                              
             PM                                                            
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             siouan at lists.colo                                             
                 rado.edu                                                  
                                                                           
                                                                           




I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is:

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or
not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
"to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is
it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through
Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights!

- Bryan Gordon


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 16:00:33 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:00:33 -0500
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A2F@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.110033.0500.>

Bob wrote:
> Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its
initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or
do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)

??  In OP, we have gi- for the 'dative' form:

  gia'ghe 'make or do for someone'
    iNga'ghe '...     for me'
    ria'ghe  '...     for you'

How does dative OP gi- relate to dative Kaw kki-  ?


Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 16:40:12 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:40:12 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.114012.0500.>

I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

In my experience this verb goes both ways - some times it's treated as a
unit and other times you'll hear it conjugated (example: wac^hi pa'xe tah
miN'ke - I'm going to dance). You'll also hear things like "wac^Hi ga'xe ama
agu di a?" - where are they dancing?". We also hear the verb "noN'te" for
"dance", as in "noN'te wa'the" or  "aN'noNte aNga'ti" - we are here dancing.
Apologies for the poor phonetics.

The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? Never heard
it said that way before; that's marvelous! And, it's also true. However,
it's more likely to take the form "wa'tsi", sounding very much like the
Osage word for "dance" - a favorite old tease between the Osage and Ponca.
Jim Duncan used to ALWAYS get in trouble when he'd visit Ponca Powwow and
say "awa'tsi kom'bra" - my aunt would teasingly slap him and say
"hey.....behave yourself around here". Then they'd all bust out laughing.

Depending upon the context, sometimes it's just safer to use "noN'te".


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rory M Larson" <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: OP dancing


> Hi Bryan,
>
> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb.  So
> apparently they added -gaghe at the end to soften it and make it clear
that
> they were talking about dancing, and not some other social activity.  I
> doubt that you could say "wac^Hi'ppaghe", as this could too easily be
> misinterpreted in the way you are trying to avoid.  To say 'I dance', you
> might have to resort to something awful like "wac^Hi'gaghe ppa'ghe".
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>              "Bryan Gordon"
>              <linguista at gmail.
>              com>                                                       To
>              Sent by:                  siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>              owner-siouan at list                                          cc
>              s.colorado.edu
>                                                                    Subject
>                                        OP dancing
>              07/04/2006 11:03
>              PM
>
>
>              Please respond to
>              siouan at lists.colo
>                  rado.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
> I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
> doubt many of you have encountered before.
>
> One thing which has just struck me is:
>
> The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated
or
> not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
> sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
> conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
> "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
> thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
> get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.
>
> So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is
> it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through
> Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.
>
> Thanks for your insights!
>
> - Bryan Gordon
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul  5 19:43:41 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:43:41 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.144341.0500.>

> I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now.  :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization cline.  It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects.  I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages (and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan.  The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line.  It wasn't originally homophonous with the F*** word.  The F word originally had the vowel U, and the form /chu/ or /thu/.  Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw.  And that's where the problem arose!  

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it.  I would have expected /gi-/ also.  I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file slips.  When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in blue magic marker rather than in a notebook.  But my file boxes are all in big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to them yet.  

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the /kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also.  I don't have a dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately.  

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 20:07:12 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:07:12 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A30@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.130712.0700.>

> The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha 
languages (and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed 
from Dakotan.  The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the 
more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I 
suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line. >
   
  dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.
   
  This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for "penis."  (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.)  Dorsey had a few ways of writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi (don't know what the 'diti' is here).   tcaN also seems to be a component of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense.  I'm wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the Biloxi form is cognate.
   
  Dave

"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
  > I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now. :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe. We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all. 

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization cline. It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects. I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'. But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages (and probably all Siouan languages). I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan. The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line. It wasn't originally homophonous with the F*** word. The F word originally had the vowel U, and the form /chu/ or /thu/. Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw. And that's where the problem arose! 

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it. I would have expected /gi-/ also. I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file slips. When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in blue magic marker rather than in a notebook. But my file boxes are all in big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to them yet. 

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the /kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also. I don't have a dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately. 

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob



 		
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 21:16:55 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:16:55 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <20060705200712.78067.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.161655.0500.>

> dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis."  (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.)  Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here).   tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense.  I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'.  In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN.  (c = s^ here)  I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame".  Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  5 21:49:22 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:49:22 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A30@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.144922.0700.>

wachu' is the copulatory term in Osage, while waachi' is 'dance'. The
copulatory F*** wachu' is also rendered wachu'e, which makes me think it may
actually be wachuu'.  I'll have to look closely at this possibility.
(waachi'  'dance' is never *waachi'e.)

 

Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e "copulate". Nobody
wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)

 

Carolyn

 

   _____  

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:44 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: More on wachi

 

> I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as
Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now.  :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization
cline.  It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects.
I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in
any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages
(and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan.
The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant
languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some
borrowing is possible somewhere along the line.  It wasn't originally
homophonous with the F*** word.  The F word originally had the vowel U, and
the form /chu/ or /thu/.  Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa
and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but
front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in
Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw.  And that's where the problem arose!  

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it.  I would have
expected /gi-/ also.  I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file
slips.  When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in
blue magic marker rather than in a notebook.  But my file boxes are all in
big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to
them yet.  

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the
/kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also.  I don't have a
dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately.  

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular
forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob


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From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 22:32:49 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:32:49 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <OF9CD8BD8D.1C9851D5-ON862571A2.007273C5-862571A2.0073876E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.153249.0700.>

> dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about? >
   
  Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  
   
  > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ? >
   
  Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory



 		
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 22:39:08 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:39:08 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.173908.0500.>

> Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e "copulate". Nobody
> wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)
>
> Carolyn
>

Um...yeah, Carolyn. I had a first hand experience with that one during the
time we were having Osage class at your home in Tulsa. Smart boy here
decided to ask for the bread in Osage - at the urging of my uncle - from an
elderly Osage lady (who shall remain nameless) sitting across from us at a
peyote meeting noon meal. As her eyes grew to the size of quarters and Jim
Duncan dropped his fork, my uncle said "idadoN egi'she?" (what did you
say?). I simply said: I dunno, I just asked for the bread. That got quite a
laugh out of the old lady. She said "Oh sonny, it's good you're trying to
learn." Later as we drove home I asked my uncle: "What the heck was that all
about?" After explaining that I didn't say it correctly, he said: "You know
nephew, I haven't seen a look like that in my sister's eyes in a loooong
time!".

Oh, the joys of learning a new language!


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 22:46:23 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:46:23 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <20060705223249.97672.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.154623.0700.>

Ooops.
   
  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi -- actually caNditi is glossed as 'penis' not breechcloth, which is caNte, although this -te could possibly be related to -thi, house, or as Rory says 'container'?
   
  BTW--While we're on the subject, JOD has the following in the D-S dictionary: waktcaNyadi (waakcaNyadi) which is waaka, cow + caN? + aNya, person + di (topicalizer, def. article?).  JOD notates that this may have a phallic reference if it's component parts are: waak, cow + caN (genitalia) + person!  He glosses this as the name of a dark-skinned people who used to dwell on the Red River, above Lecompte, LA.  I have no clear idea who these people are!  (But I got a laugh out of it!)  
   
  Dave
   
  
David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about? >
   
  Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  
   
  > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ? >
   
  Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory


    
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 23:09:07 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 18:09:07 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.180907.0500.>

>
> In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
> 'scrotum'.  In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN.  (c = s^ here)  I've
> always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
> that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain
archaic
> uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame".  Dave's
> Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
> option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
> Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
> container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
> genitalia' ?
>

I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity between the word s^aN
and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. He told me: "After awhile
we couldn't keep saying s^aN because they could understand that....kinda
offended them.  So I guess them old folks changed it over to "s^aa" or "s^aN
a" or  "s^aN ama" -THAT one we understood.....that there were more than one
of  'em. But they never did catch that. "

> There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
> believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, the
> word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
> not).

In Ponca the term for "apron" or "breechclout" is z^e atigthoN or z^e ati
agthoN.


From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul  6 02:27:54 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 21:27:54 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.212754.0500.>

Oh yes!
Breechcloth  in IOM  is   re'rokina ~ re'rok^inna.  A gloss is "covers the penis".
Actual analysis is not so clear after the word "re'".  So just off the rough of my mind on this late evening....
The 1st version may be the root from  -  aru'kije (wrap around; wraps; bands).  The 2nd version may be from  -  k^in  (wear; have on [Otoe]; carry, pack on the back; wear [Ioway])  
K^in  is especially used when wearing a robe, blanket, or coat.  When speaking English, the folks would say:  "You better pack a coat.  It's cold."
Jimm 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kaufman 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:46 PM
  Subject: RE: More on wachi


  Ooops.

  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi -- actually caNditi is glossed as 'penis' not breechcloth, which is caNte, although this -te could possibly be related to -thi, house, or as Rory says 'container'?

  BTW--While we're on the subject, JOD has the following in the D-S dictionary: waktcaNyadi (waakcaNyadi) which is waaka, cow + caN? + aNya, person + di (topicalizer, def. article?).  JOD notates that this may have a phallic reference if it's component parts are: waak, cow + caN (genitalia) + person!  He glosses this as the name of a dark-skinned people who used to dwell on the Red River, above Lecompte, LA.  I have no clear idea who these people are!  (But I got a laugh out of it!)  

  Dave


  David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

    Any idea what the di- is about? >

    Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  

    > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
    container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
    genitalia' ? >

    Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?

    Dave


    Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
      > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

      Any idea what the di- is about?

      > This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
      "penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
      comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
      writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
      (don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
      of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
      wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
      Biloxi form is cognate.

      In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
      'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
      always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
      that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
      uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
      Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
      option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
      Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
      container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
      genitalia' ?

      There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
      believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
      word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
      not).

      Rory





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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul  6 02:36:48 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 21:36:48 -0500
Subject: Fw: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.213648.0500.>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Red Corn" <>
To: <goodtracks at peoplepc.comgoodtracks@peoplepc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: More on wachi


> ya i have heard the same thing... i always specify what type of bread  
> to avoid this... for instance when asking for fry bread i say  
> wa.tsu'e pa.sa.hi kon.bra
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 6:43 PM, <goodtracks at peoplepc.com>  
> <goodtracks at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> 
>> Is this true??
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Leonard" <tmleonard at cox.net>
>> To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: More on wachi
>>
>>
>>>> Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e  
>>>> "copulate". Nobody
>>>> wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)
>>>>
>>>> Carolyn


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul  6 08:23:27 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:23:27 +0200
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <005001c6a088$04d4f720$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.102327.0200.>

breechcloth in Lakota is chegnáke (obviously from: ché - penis and 
ognákA - to place in, cf. ognáke - a place to keep things in; also 
ognágnakapi - a chest or smth to store things in).

Interestingly, there's also chegnákekitxuN and chegnákitxuN as a verb 
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be 
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

Also, I wonder if L cheáktxuN - to make a bridge (cheáktxuNpi - bridge) 
is related in some way.

Alfred

Am 06.07.2006 um 01:09 schrieb Tom Leonard:

>
>
>> There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
>> believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, 
>> the
>> word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is 
>> aspirated or
>> not).
>
> In Ponca the term for "apron" or "breechclout" is z^e atigthoN or z^e 
> ati
> agthoN.


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 14:47:37 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:47:37 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <90d37e6fb13be868740f9b6f4f08dd00@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.094737.0500.>

Alfred wrote:
> Interestingly, there's also chegnákekitxuN and chegnákitxuN as a verb
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

In OP, the 'th' symbol is traditionally used for their version of the MVS
*r, which seems to be a sort of retroflex glide from l to edh.  Since edh
is spelled th in English, this digraph is traditionally used for this
sound, which I have been calling ledh, and have recently taken to typing as
r.  But generally if you see an OP word with a th in it, the sound has
nothing to do with either t or h.  So the gthoN would not be related to La.
kitxuN.  I think it is probably cognate to the gna in ognakA.  It seems to
mean something like 'to fit (into)', and it's usually combined with
something else.

I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:

  che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
  penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
  thing against which to keep one's penis in place

?

Rory



> breechcloth in Lakota is chegnáke (obviously from: ché - penis and
ognákA - to place in, cf. ognáke - a place to keep things in; also
ognágnakapi - a chest or smth to store things in).

Interestingly, there's also chegnákekitxuN and chegnákitxuN as a verb
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

Also, I wonder if L cheáktxuN - to make a bridge (cheáktxuNpi - bridge)
is related in some way.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  6 15:43:40 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:43:40 -0600
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607042103w210b5adoddf11264036013b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.094340.0600.>

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Bryan Gordon wrote:
> I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
> I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
> doubt many of you have encountered before.

Actually, it might be worth searchign the archives on some of these, as
they tend to come up once a year!

> The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated
> or not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make."
> Makes sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
> conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course,
> "gaghe" "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get
> *aaghe - thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead
> of course we get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

I agree that Hahn is simply wrong on this once, though she might have
found a nonce form from someone.  Delightful information from Tom Leonard,
Carolyn Quintero, Jimm Good Tracks et al on the inflections and pitfalls
of this term.

The 'copulate' verb is cognate across MVS at least, with Dakota hu, OP
c^hi (presumably diminutive of thi), Winnebago j^u and so on suggesting
PMVS *thu.  I think that OP c^hi being diminutive involves some sort of
mitigation.  Of course, wac^hi is the indefinite object form and perhaps
more likely in conversation than plain c^hi.  Maybe c^hi avoids homophony
with thi 'to arrive', though the inflection of motion verbs is a bit
different from that of others, due to the "a-" locative in
plural/proximate forms.

OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to
play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
fashion'.

The 'dance' set in Siouan similar to OP wac^hi (gaghe) is highly irregular
in its correspondences - at least as irregular as the tobacco set - so I
suspect it of being a loan set.  I doubt the concept of dancing is recent,
but perhaps this set originally refers to particular steps or particular
social contexts for dancing that were new.  I seem to recall an expression
on the order of hedhu's^ka=ma wac^hi' gaghe 'they were hethuska dancing'.

To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is
particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  6 16:00:38 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:00:38 -0600
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <OF26850537.D5654F66-ON862571A2.0057275F-862571A2.005690D3@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.100038.0600.>

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> > Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its
> initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or
> do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)
>
> ??  In OP, we have gi- for the 'dative' form:
>
>   gia'ghe 'make or do for someone'
>     iNga'ghe '...     for me'
>     ria'ghe  '...     for you'
>
> How does dative OP gi- relate to dative Kaw kki-  ?

As Bob suggested in a posting after this, I have looked at the Dhegiha
(and MVS) datives and noticed this peculiarity of the datives.  In fact, I
can supply a pretty thorough handout summarizing the datives et al. in MVS
if anyone is interested.

In terms strictly of Dhegiha, people may want to note that the OP datives,
regular and syncopating (or irregular) are quite different from those in
Osage, Kaw, and Quapaw (to the extent the latter is known).  It's almost
like having an additional branch to MVS:  Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca,
Osage-Kaw-Quapaw, and Winnebago-Chiwere.  Actually, there are some
differences in this area between Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe, but not as
major as those within Dhegiha.

Considering the k-stems only, OP has gi-V... < underlying //gi-gV...//,
for all of the type 1 k-stems, i.e., gaaghe, gaNaNze, and so on, yield
giaghe, giaNze, etc.  This happens only in the third person, so you get

A1    e'ppaghe
A2  dhe's^kaghe
A3    giagha=i

(Rory gives the object forms, using his own notation.)

In Osage, etc., the third persons seem to be khi(a)ghe, khioNze, etc.,
which are, naturally, given Osage aspirate affrication, written
ks^i(a)ghe, ks^ioNze, etc.  (From memory.)  I won't venture to try to
remember the inflected forms!

I'd be curious if Kaw kki(a)ghe comes from elicitation or from a Dorsey
form that might be ambiguous with khi(a)ghe.  I'd expect the aspirate
because the Osage data is so clear on aspiration.

I have hypotheses about what is happening in these forms, diachronically,
but for the moment let me confine myself to saying, yes, there is this
very odd difference in the k-stem datives of OP and "Southern Dheigha."

The plain old regular dative is quite different, too.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul  6 18:02:48 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:02:48 +0200
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <OF2B2E7D22.F2502792-ON862571A3.004EDF73-862571A3.004FE362@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.200248.0200.>

Am 06.07.2006 um 16:47 schrieb Rory M Larson:

> Alfred wrote:
>> Interestingly, there's also chegnákekitxuN and chegnákitxuN as a verb
> with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
> related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?
>
> (...)
>
> I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
> especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:
>
>   che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
>   penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
>   thing against which to keep one's penis in place
>
> ?
>
> Rory


I wonder what is the word to parse as 'against' here. Is it 'a'? (in 
OP?)

Could it be broken down to:
chegnáke ki(N) txuN
penis-put/lay-it the have/possess-it
breechcloth-the have/possess-it
one has/wears it as a breechcloth
wearing a breechcloth

As for the -ki-, another approach doesn't seem to make much sense:
kitxuN(yaN) -  in an increasing manner, growing,
where the ki- affix seems to be the one of kiág^uyapi - to turn to 
bread, i.e. denoting a process of alteration/transformation/change

Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 19:07:51 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:07:51 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <f5b9e9ef78318b19a3fa6d2dd07b62a1@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.140751.0500.>

>> I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
>> especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:
>>
>>   che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
>>   penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
>>   thing against which to keep one's penis in place
>
> I wonder what is the word to parse as 'against' here. Is it 'a'? (in
> OP?)

Yes, in OP that would be right; I'm not sure about Lakhota, but I think
it's general to MVS.  a'- = 'to'/'at'/'against'.  It reminds me a lot of
Latin ad- before a verb.

Rory


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul  6 21:17:06 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:17:06 +0100
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <005001c6a088$04d4f720$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.221706.0100.>

I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
between the word 
s^aN
and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. 


Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
explanations of this term. Can anyone help

Bruce--- 


	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine 
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Jul  6 21:44:45 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:44:45 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <20060706211706.74498.qmail@web26805.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.164445.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
> between the word 
> s^aN
> and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. 
> 
> 
> Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
> some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
> explanations of this term. Can anyone help

Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota čaŋo´na 
(c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't 
know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' aŋ is more properly 
rendered now as ą (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is 
the correct Net Siouan.)

Alan


From linguista at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:59:55 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:59:55 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607061459g4f79330bqab49d9e44eb31d9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.165955.0500.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Gordon <egonxti at gmail.com>
Date: Jul 6, 2006 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: OP dancing
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu



On 7/6/06, Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>
> OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
> strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
> causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to
>
> play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
> fashion'.


That does make perfect sense somehow. This would be the same "gaghe" that we
see whenever IshtinikHe (INshtiNthiNkhe??) pretends to be a turkey or
something. I also ran into a particularly confounding usage in analysing the
legend of Ukiabi (Dorsey 1890 609-613):
GaN maNshiata iNbeziga-ma wiN maNghe ibisaNdexti gawiNghe maNthiN
gaghai-tHe-ha, izhiNga-akHa.
I thought at first that the three verbs "gawiNghe-maNthiN-gaghai" formed a
serial construction, but could not figure out what the heck it would be,
until it occurred to me that this was just a very opaque relative
construction! Basically, the son pretended to be a yellow-tailed hawk flying
up high right against the sky, so everything up to "maNthiN" is actually a
relative clause headed by "iNbeziga-ma wiN." Then I suppose that
"iNbeziga-ma wiN" itself means something like "one of the yellow-tailed
hawks," as in "a member of that class."


> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is
> particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
> =dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
> Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
> fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.


That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested to
hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence of
-the.
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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Jul  6 22:01:00 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:01:00 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <44AD844D.5090608@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.170100.0500.>

Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Bruce Ingham wrote:
> 
>> I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
>> between the word s^aN
>> and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux.
>>
>> Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
>> some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
>> explanations of this term. Can anyone help
> 
> 
> Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota čaŋo´na 
> (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't 
> know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' aŋ is more properly 
> rendered now as ą (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is 
> the correct Net Siouan.)

But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown 
original form and etymology.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul  6 23:08:33 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:08:33 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.180833.0500.>

> OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to 
play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
fashion'.
 
"Make like".

> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is 
particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data. 

> That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested to hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence of -the. 
 
Certainly was in Kansa.  If /gaaghe/ means 'make like (a)' in OP, it generally translates 'make' in just about any AUX usage except "to have as a" kinship term.
 
I'll have to check to see how I recorded Dorsey's /kkiaghe/.  He often failed to distinguish aspirates and geminates in Kaw and I'll have to find my file box.
 
Bob


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 23:55:36 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:55:36 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489489@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.185536.0500.>

John wrote:
> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is

particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.

Bryan wrote:
> That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested
to hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence
of -the.

Bob wrote:
> Certainly was in Kansa.  If /gaaghe/ means 'make like (a)' in OP, it
generally translates 'make' in just about any AUX usage except "to have as
a" kinship term.

I think my limited (mostly to two speakers) experience tends to favor Bob's
view on this for modern Omaha.  I know I've been disappointed and shot down
repeatedly over the past six years, trying to garner their support in front
of the class for my explanations and exercises for the causative -re
construction, only to have them dispute the word or suggest an alternative
construction in gaaghe.  For the Dorsey OP material though, the -re
construction certainly predominates, as John and Bryan indicate.

Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Fri Jul  7 00:01:10 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 19:01:10 -0500
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607060944170.11852@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.190110.0500.>

John wrote:
> As Bob suggested in a posting after this, I have looked at the Dhegiha
(and MVS) datives and noticed this peculiarity of the datives.  In fact, I
can supply a pretty thorough handout summarizing the datives et al. in MVS
if anyone is interested.

I would be very interested.  Thanks for the reply on datives, and for the
daring suggestion that OP constitutes a fifth branch of MVS!

Rory


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Fri Jul  7 03:26:12 2006
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:26:12 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.222612.0500.>

Quoting "A.W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de>:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr. 
> Emil  Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are 
> in  English only, aren't they?

Actually, no, the original editions are bilingual English-Lakota.  I do 
own a copy of a monolingual English "Brave Against the Enemy", but I 
have seen the original edition, which is bilingual, and its Lakota text 
looks impressive.

Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Fri Jul  7 06:00:36 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:00:36 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <20060706222612.d73dkx0nceo88848@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUL.2006.160036.1000.>

Hello Willem, It seems also that "Watakpeya Tanka", (subtitled :  
"Toni kin itowapi kicunyan oyake kin he."), a life of St. Francis  
Xavier penned by Fr. George M. Schurhammer SJ, published originally  
in 1925, was in fact translated into Lakota by Mr. EMIL AFRAID-OF- 
HAWK, no less!  Apparently the work was republished in 1996, and  
appears in the Bibliography of "Lakota", by Bruce Ingham, Lincom  
Europa, 2003. Schurhammer, one reads, was a German Jesuit orientalist  
historian born near Freiburg, Germany in 1882, who apparently spent  
the years 1908 to 1912 in South India (Malabar Coast), and became an  
authority on the great Missionary-Saint of the ("Far")-East. One's  
impression is that he spent the rest of his life in the Vatican,  
apart from trips to Goa, and Japan in the early '50's. (For us down  
here of course, it is the "Near North"!). Toksha akhe,  
Clive.                                                                   
                                                     P.S. I'm not  
sure of the exact sense of "kicunyan" in that subtitle above . I took  
it to mean :  "(The Great Attack) :The narrative[.lit.'he tells/ 
reports'-presumably, nominalized] of his life (....[clothing it in?])  
pictures." Buechel-Manhart is not a huge help, merely listing  
"kic'úNyaN" (adverb) = "in a clothed manner.", under the well-known  
verb : "kic'úN/wéc'uN", meaning "to put on/wear (clothes, etc.)" B-M.  
also renders the phrase "tancan kic'unyan" [="a body dressed"]. Any  
elucidation for amateurs gratefully received!
On 07/07/2006, at 1:26 PM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:

> Quoting "A.W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de>:
>
>> Clive,
>>
>> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
>> Emil  Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets  
>> are in  English only, aren't they?
>
> Actually, no, the original editions are bilingual English-Lakota.   
> I do own a copy of a monolingual English "Brave Against the Enemy",  
> but I have seen the original edition, which is bilingual, and its  
> Lakota text looks impressive.
>
> Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Fri Jul  7 19:50:15 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 05:50:15 +1000
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <20060627201045.86039.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.055015.1000.>

Hello Dave, Sorry for taking so long to reply: I've been rather busy.  
Thanks for all of that wonderful information you so kindly supplied!  
Actually I was expecting that D-S Biloxi dictionary to be fairly  
difficult to use, with inconsistencies & confusions galore, not just  
in orthography, judging from my experiences with other dictionaries/ 
grammars of yesteryear, like Rev. Cyrus Byington's Dictionary of  
Choctaw, for instance. So the Einaudi treatise also has some  
orthographical problems also, eh? (Actually I have applied to obtain  
it on inter-library loan : when I do get it, & I have a clearer idea  
of the language's basic grammatical/syntactic structures,  I may have  
a go at  writing you a short letter in Biloxi.)  Thank you also for  
that analysis of the Biloxi sentence : most interesting. Would one be  
correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor"  
pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point  
of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated  
due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of  
"oyakA" [=tell; recount]? Can't think of any Lakhota analogue of  
"ade" ("iya/ia" [=speak]; "iyapi"[=speech, language]??). Might "- 
iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive  
infix), or even possibly with : "iyechinka" (adv. "of one's own  
accord")?? ; "-spe" seems fairly obviously a cognate of Lakhota :  
"(uN/oN)spe" [= to know how to..."] ; "uNspékhiyA" [=" cause to know  
how to=>teach"; "uNspéic'iciyA" [="teach oneself=>learn"] ; with  "- 
ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota? One supposes "YaNdi" to be  
from same word-root as "chante" [=heart]; while "phi" [=good] might  
have many cognates in Lakhota : "phiic'iyA" [=to make oneself  
'good'=>prepare oneself/make ready]? ; "phiya" [=to make 'good'=>to  
mend/repair//conjure the sick]; not to mention the many derivatives  
of "phila" [=to regard as 'good'=>be glad/rejoice=>be grateful/ 
thankful]?? Does that reply to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply  
mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? I wonder whether Biloxi  
had an equivalent word/phrase for "goodbye/so long/see you!"  
involving the equivalent of the adverb "again" &/or an indefinite  
adverb of time corresponding to idea of "by and by/later on/before  
long" etc., like Lakhota's : "toksha akhe" ?? Does Biloxi show a  
greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or  
rather from Tunica? Chitimacha?   Thanks also for the sample of  
Rumsien Ohlone. Was it spoken in the Carmel area? Wonder if "Rowdy  
Yates" had ever heard of it? :), Best wishes, Clive.
On 28/06/2006, at 6:10 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

> Hi Clive,
>
> > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on  
> a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?:  
> another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you  
> will have someone to write/speak to >
>
> You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user- 
> UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am  
> currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a  
> more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a  
> format where you can simply look up the English word and get the  
> full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary,  
> you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the  
> orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading)  
> in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.
>
> > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means  
> exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically  
> speaking? >
>
> Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye  
> (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade =  
> language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye =  
> cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."
>
> Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really  
> the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not  
> flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply  
> stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding  
> out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative  
> research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be  
> represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised  
> grammar together along with the revised dictionary.   
> (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us  
> I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)
>
> > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've  
> just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey"  
> under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok- 
> Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter?  
> Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >
>
> Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list  
> (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer  
> your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the  
> jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some  
> propose that it includes languages all the way up into British  
> Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages  
> are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in  
> the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone  
> languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon  
> which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do.
>
> > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >
>
> Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French  
> bonjour)
> How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart  
> good?
> I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!
>
> Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!
>
> And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in  
> Rumsien)!
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>> >
>> > advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different.  
>> Just radically better.
>
>
>
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone  
> call rates.

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul  8 05:55:50 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 23:55:50 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <44AD881C.7010900@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUL.2006.235550.0600.>

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota čaŋo´na

Shorn of diacritics, the first version looks like AMaAkoAna at my end.

> > (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't
> > know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' aŋ is more properly
> > rendered now as ą (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is
> > the correct Net Siouan.)
>
> But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown
> original form and etymology.

I doubt the Riggs and other etymologies I've seen.  The Handbook is being
reasonable and cautious, but I suspect something like OP s^aaN' is the
underlying form.  There's no connection with Dakota s^aN 'vagina', though
that similarity seems to have been noticed as a potential problem.  For
cognates of s^a cf. Winnebago s^aa, or Mandan sa ~ sare (i.e., sa(r)-)
'vulva, vagina'.

Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables, though it my recollection of
the phonetics is something like s^auN, with uN reduced almost to w.

For the connection of OP s^aaN' (the Handbook cites Ponca s^a),
augumenting the CSD with the Handbook, 13:750-1, cf.

Ks s^ahaN'

Quapaw s^ahaN' is said to be 'Cheyenne', but I think this is late
confusion with the very similar s^ahi(a) word for 'Cheyenne'.

IO s^a'haN ~ s^a
Wi s^aahaNaN'  (s^aawiN' 'Sioux woman')

The MVS forms suggest *s^ahaN.

Further afield, perhaps with sound symbolic shift of s^ to x, note Mandan
xaN(nuNmaNk) 'Sioux', literally xaN-person.  This was interpreted by
Hollow as involving xaN(h)- 'grass'.  I imagine the etymology was offered
by his consultants.  In xaN(h)- the (h) represents the alternation between
xaN (generally in compounds and syntactically subordinate contexts) and
xaNhe (independent) in xaN ~ xaNhe 'grass'.  The Handbook 18:751 cites
Mauricio Mixco for xaNhnuNuNmaNk 'grass person'.  The length of uN
suggests Mauricio is reporting a personal hearing (Hollow omits length),
but I think the -h- reflects Mauricio's own penchant for using Hollow's
underlying or "pre-Mandan" forms as surface spellings.  That is, I suspect
the h is not audible.  While xaN(h)- clearly does mean 'grass' in some
contexts, I am not sure that it means that in the context of
xaNnuN(uN)maNk, whether or not the h is properly considered as present.

I wonder if this folk analysis ties in, however, with the northern
tendency to refer to the Hethushka in its Sioux form as the "Grass Dance."

Also possibly relevant:  Arikara sananat and Pawnee cararaat 'Sioux;
enemy'.  I think these have no etymology as such.  I assume the sana-
and cara- parts are the relevant ones.

Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo
wasaaha, Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I
think, but the lack of nasalization in the final vowel seems to me to
indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan source or
sources.

If the the Siouan data support *s^ahuN I'd be tempted to suggest s^ahaN
meant, historically, s^ah Cree' + ?uN 'do', i.e., 'act the Cheyenne;
behave like a Cree'.

Of course, Dakota s^aoN, saoN - SauN to use the CSD convention of S for
s ~ s^ ~ x - may well suggest *s^ahuN, but IO and Winnebago should also
have uN.  Since they have aN, this is a problem.


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sat Jul  8 13:57:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 08:57:25 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.085725.0500.>

>>Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables.......

I think that was the point the Ponca man was trying to get across in my
previous story - that the word s^aN for Sioux was purposefully changed to a
two syllable word. I imagine it could all boil down to a folk etymology, but
it was rather comical at the time.

I've heard several Ponca elders translate "s^ai ethe" or "s^ahi ethe" as
"Cheyenne", but being derived from "s^aN" (Sioux) and "ethe" (relatives) or
"relatives of the Sioux". In light of the discussion, would you suppose this
as a folk analysis?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: s^aaN for Sioux


On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota čaŋo´na

Shorn of diacritics, the first version looks like AMaAkoAna at my end.

> > (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't
> > know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' aŋ is more properly
> > rendered now as ą (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is
> > the correct Net Siouan.)
>
> But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown
> original form and etymology.

I doubt the Riggs and other etymologies I've seen.  The Handbook is being
reasonable and cautious, but I suspect something like OP s^aaN' is the
underlying form.  There's no connection with Dakota s^aN 'vagina', though
that similarity seems to have been noticed as a potential problem.  For
cognates of s^a cf. Winnebago s^aa, or Mandan sa ~ sare (i.e., sa(r)-)
'vulva, vagina'.

Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables, though it my recollection of
the phonetics is something like s^auN, with uN reduced almost to w.

For the connection of OP s^aaN' (the Handbook cites Ponca s^a),
augumenting the CSD with the Handbook, 13:750-1, cf.

Ks s^ahaN'

Quapaw s^ahaN' is said to be 'Cheyenne', but I think this is late
confusion with the very similar s^ahi(a) word for 'Cheyenne'.

IO s^a'haN ~ s^a
Wi s^aahaNaN'  (s^aawiN' 'Sioux woman')

The MVS forms suggest *s^ahaN.

Further afield, perhaps with sound symbolic shift of s^ to x, note Mandan
xaN(nuNmaNk) 'Sioux', literally xaN-person.  This was interpreted by
Hollow as involving xaN(h)- 'grass'.  I imagine the etymology was offered
by his consultants.  In xaN(h)- the (h) represents the alternation between
xaN (generally in compounds and syntactically subordinate contexts) and
xaNhe (independent) in xaN ~ xaNhe 'grass'.  The Handbook 18:751 cites
Mauricio Mixco for xaNhnuNuNmaNk 'grass person'.  The length of uN
suggests Mauricio is reporting a personal hearing (Hollow omits length),
but I think the -h- reflects Mauricio's own penchant for using Hollow's
underlying or "pre-Mandan" forms as surface spellings.  That is, I suspect
the h is not audible.  While xaN(h)- clearly does mean 'grass' in some
contexts, I am not sure that it means that in the context of
xaNnuN(uN)maNk, whether or not the h is properly considered as present.

I wonder if this folk analysis ties in, however, with the northern
tendency to refer to the Hethushka in its Sioux form as the "Grass Dance."

Also possibly relevant:  Arikara sananat and Pawnee cararaat 'Sioux;
enemy'.  I think these have no etymology as such.  I assume the sana-
and cara- parts are the relevant ones.

Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo
wasaaha, Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I
think, but the lack of nasalization in the final vowel seems to me to
indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan source or
sources.

If the the Siouan data support *s^ahuN I'd be tempted to suggest s^ahaN
meant, historically, s^ah Cree' + ?uN 'do', i.e., 'act the Cheyenne;
behave like a Cree'.

Of course, Dakota s^aoN, saoN - SauN to use the CSD convention of S for
s ~ s^ ~ x - may well suggest *s^ahuN, but IO and Winnebago should also
have uN.  Since they have aN, this is a problem.


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  9 00:31:20 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 17:31:20 -0700
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607072251130.24901@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.173120.0700.>

> Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo wasaaha,
> Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I think, but the
> lack of nasalization in the final vowel
 
Ojibwe is the only Central Algonquian language that has contrastive vowel
nasalization, and there it's only word-final. So when Algonquian languages
borrowed this word from Siouan, the speakers would have just dropped the
vowel nasalization.

> seems to me to indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan
> source or sources.
> 
Almost certainly so, since these words are phonotactically rather abnormal
from the perspective of Algonquian languages.

Dave


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Jul  9 21:22:29 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:22:29 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <C0D59C67.4031%pankihtamwa@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUL.2006.152229.0600.>

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006, David Costa wrote:
> > seems to me to indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan
> > source or sources.

> Almost certainly so, since these words are phonotactically rather abnormal
> from the perspective of Algonquian languages.

They're a bit weird from a Siouan perspective, too, though not impossible.
More likely if derived from some verbal source and not actually simple
nouns.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Jul  9 21:47:59 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:47:59 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <000501c6a296$7169efc0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUL.2006.154759.0600.>

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> I think that was the point the Ponca man was trying to get across in my
> previous story - that the word s^aN for Sioux was purposefully changed to a
> two syllable word. I imagine it could all boil down to a folk etymology, but
> it was rather comical at the time.

I suppose the humor might vary in inverse proportion to the number of
Dakotas present.

However, the presence of h in all the non-Omaha-Ponca forms suggests that
the word was originally bisyllabic and that Omaha-Ponca has simply lost
the h between vowels.  There are a few other cases of this in OP, though
it's a sporadic change, and not a regular one.  I think another example is
maNa 'bank'.  It's always nice to have s^aaN (s^-a-aN) and maNa (m-aN-a)
handy as examples and test cases when thinking about OP phonology and
orthography.  :-)

> I've heard several Ponca elders translate "s^ai ethe" or "s^ahi ethe" as
> "Cheyenne", but being derived from "s^aN" (Sioux) and "ethe" (relatives) or
> "relatives of the Sioux". In light of the discussion, would you suppose this
> as a folk analysis?

Definitely.  We've discussed s^ahi and similar forms on the list in the
past, and those can be searched for, so I won't dig up the details again,
but this form (with h) is a widely attested word for 'Cree' and 'Cheyenne'
(lit. 'little Cree' or given the "sorta" origin of the Dakotan diminutive,
maybe 'so-to-speak Cree').  S^ai would have loss of intervocalic h again.
The Dakota form usually has a theme-vowel or stem-forming vowel -a (which
ablauts to e before =la) yielding *s^ahi-a > s^ahi-e=la.  Forms like
s^ahia (s^ahiya) and plain s^ahi are found in various contexts in various
Siouan languages.  OP s^a(h)iedha is an adaptation of Dakotan s^ahiela.

On the other hand, as I indicated, there is some slight possibility that
s^ahaN might mean 'behaving like a Cree' if it's *s^ah-uN, so 'related to
the Cree' or (to use the old English diminutive) 'Cree-kin', may be an
accidental (or historically persistent?) parallelism.

This hypothetical use of uN 'to do' would parallel Omaha-Ponca usage of
gaghe 'to make, to do' as 'to behave as .., to play the ...'.  Some list
members may remember the discussion of Omaha-Ponca 'make-believe whitemen'
a while back, which involved waxe gaghe 'to play the whiteman'.  Another
example would be (if I remember the phrase) gdhedaN gaghe 'to magically
change into a hawk'.  Since the person in question (in a story) then flies
up the smoke hole we have to assume that more than mere emulation or
intent is potentially indicated in the gaghe construction.

I haven't yet gotten around to seeing if I was able to elicit causatives
in dhe in 1985.  I do remember some gaghe usage, but I think it was just
one possibility.  Better check before I spread too much confusion!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul 10 13:45:58 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:45:58 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.154558.0200.>

Hello experts,

a Chinese friend of mine, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, is doing research on the 
topic of pre-columbian Sino-American contacts (Zheng He) and only 
recently had a series of press conference and lectures about Zheng He 
and America on his tour in Hongkong. He owns a Chinese medal unearthed 
in the East Coast area (former Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is 
reflecting about linguistic relationship of the term for 'china clay' 
in former southern Chinese and the Native American languages 
respectively.
Here's what he is stating:

"The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for  china clay is 
“unaker”, similar to what Chinese call  堊泥 “uk-na[ke]” in  southern 
dialect. Is it a coincidence?   This happened before the arrival of the 
Europeans.   The Chinese name uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty.   It 
was later replaced by other terms like china clay and kaolin.   A 
Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might have brought  the 
clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the porcelain gifts 
(...)"

I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your opinions on this issue 
as far as linguistic aspects are involved.

Here's the link to further details: http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/

Thank's in advance!

Alfred 
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 18:39:48 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:39:48 -0600
Subject: Ponca on NPR
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.123948.0600.>

Did anyone else hear all the Ponca on NPR last night?  It was part of a
story on pollution in Ponca City from a carbon plant.  There were several
glossed words and a joking sally or two.  I missed the end and haven't had
a chance to try to listen to it all on-line.  It was just like listening
to the Omaha elders in Macy again.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 19:38:00 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:38:00 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <49ac317b0b90a1ea2df6bf584c07be82@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.133800.0600.>

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, A.W. Tüting wrote:
> ... He owns a Chinese medal unearthed in the East Coast area (former
> Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is reflecting about linguistic
> relationship of the term for 'china clay' in former southern Chinese and
> the Native American languages respectively. ...

Well, it never hurts to look, though I'd be concerned in the provenance of
his artifact.  It doesn't sound like he has any way of proving where it
came from.  The web site is full of specifics like depth in soil and
distance from coast, but oblivious to anything of actual archaeological
use.  "The brass medal was discovered under 4 inches of soil in a scantly
populated area several hundred miles inland from the east coast of
America. After almost 600 years, the medal shows no apparent signs of
corrosion, other than a tight coating of soil."  How did it get from these
remarkable coordinates (several hundred miles inland, 4 inches down)  to
him?  How was its arrival dated to the pre-Contact period?  Even if its
provenance is established, it's been easy to get Chinese artifacts, even
ancient ones, to Eastern North America by the usual trade mechanisms from
c. 1550 or so.

> Here's what he is stating:
>
> "The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for  china clay is
> ¡§unaker¡¨, similar to what Chinese call  °îªd ¡§uk-na[ke]¡¨ in  southern
> dialect. Is it a coincidence?

For those who need it (like me), this decypher to (Cherokee) "unaker"
and (Chinese southern dialet) "uk-na[ke]."  Does Cherokee really have a
special word for "china" or "porcelain"?  "Clay," perhaps in various
colors, and "pot(tery)" would be more likely.

> This happened before the arrival of the Europeans. The Chinese name
> uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty.

I suspect he's relying on his linguistic resemblance and the date of
the medal for dating, which will not get him very far, especially since he
seems to have no way to prove where the medal came from.

I sincerely doubt that it took the Chinese 10,000 years to learn to make
porcelain.  This would mean the initiative was started sometime around
9,000 BC, right?

As far as the special qualifications of the Catawba as potters, I don't
think they or the Cherokee were making porcelain, let alone Ming vases, in
the Contact or pre-Contact period, but I believe a lot of nice loooking
pottery was being produced all over the Americas before Contact though I'm
vague on the dating of the earliest examples.  In most places in the
Eastern part of North America native ceramics were replaced rapidly by
European pots after contact.  This is one of the frustrations that
ethnohistorians and archaeologists have in trying to associate
archaeological sites with historical peoples.

I looked at the links Dr. Lee provides, and it appears that his Cherokee
word comes from this one:

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/11_01/11_14_01/mtn_voices_macon_clay.shtml

The text here mentions "Cherokee clay or unaker."  It sounds like it might
be quoting Thomas Griffiths in the 1760s, in which case there is a strong
possibility that the word so closely resembles the southern Chinese
(Cantonese? Min?) word because it is the Chinese word, being used by the
Griffiths (or whoever is being cited) as a contemporary technical term.
I assume "Cherokee clay"  refers to the particular source of the clay
being exported, while unaker is the technical term for the grade or type.
Unaker is probably intended to spell a contemporary Chinese pronunciation
of u-na-ke.  The orthographic r would indicate that the final e is
pronounced, but the r itself would be silent.  A modern specialist might
have said "kaolin clay from a source on Cherokee lands."  A modern
specialist would also not use -r like this.  This is the usage that you
see in Lewis & Clarke's "Ma-har" for "Omaha."

Incidentally, I think kaolin is pronounced kei'-ol-<lax i>n, I think, in
American English.  A remote cousin once took my family on a tour of the
kaolin processing plant in Wyoming where he worked.

Anyway, we have no evidence that the word is Cherokee, and from the
context, every reason to suspect it is Chinese.

It is definitely true that 18th Century (and earlier) Europeans liked
Chinese ceramics and conducted an extensive trade in it as well as
devoting significant efforts to learning and/or reverse engineering the
Chinese process to permit local manufacture, even of second rate
porcelain.  Locating nearer sources of suitable clay was part of the
process.  Nothing cuts into your margins like shipping something heavy and
fragile around the world in a wind-propelled boat, and even manufacture in
Eastern North America and shipping from there would have been cheaper than
bringing it from China.


From linguista at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 19:53:56 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:53:56 -0500
Subject: Ponca on NPR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101233170.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.145356.0500.>

Do you know where they might have that indexed on the site? I did a quick
search for "Ponca" and found nothing younger than fall 2004.

On 7/10/06, Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> Did anyone else hear all the Ponca on NPR last night?  It was part of a
> story on pollution in Ponca City from a carbon plant.  There were several
> glossed words and a joking sally or two.  I missed the end and haven't had
> a chance to try to listen to it all on-line.  It was just like listening
> to the Omaha elders in Macy again.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz
>
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 20:15:43 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:15:43 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101242060.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.141543.0600.>

It appears that there's quite a Web literature on Cherokee unaker clay
amongst collectors and ceramics historians.  While it's possible the word
is of Cherokee origin, I rather wonder if it wasn't something the original
developers of the resource (who used the word in their patent) knew
(however indirectly) from the Chinese literature on the subject.  Of
particular interest is the fact that the final "ke" is "silent" in the
Chinese version.  I think this means that the term is written with three
characters u(k), na and ke, but only the first two are pronounced.  It
would be easy for an 18th Century European working with Chinese technical
materials to conclude that the sequence was pronounced u-na-ker (with
"ker" being a period "r-less dialect" spelling for something we would
probably write "ke"  or "keh" today).

Somehow this reminds me of the Oneota phase in Illinois called "Bold
Counsellor Phase."  The excavator (surname Conrad) apparently named it
after himself, though giving the impression of a Native American source.
Conrad or "Kunrat" - OHG diminutive Kuntz ~ Kuntsch (which is where I come
in) - is 'bold' + 'advice'.  I suspect this standard issue Indo-European
name is supposed to be understood as 'recommending a bold course of
action' and not as 'courageous in counsel' which could easily mean quite
the opposite of 'bold'.  Of course, with any kind of compounding or
incorporation it is often hard to figure out the precise role of the
incorporand. There used to be a small manufacturing plant in Louisville
called "Explosive Fabricators."  Whenever I drove past I used to amuse
myself by trying to parse it.  I think I ultimately came up with four or
five different readings.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 20:30:33 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:30:33 -0600
Subject: Ponca on NPR
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607101253h2e3f187cjd28f9f0d4e75b4cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.143033.0600.>

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, Bryan Gordon wrote:
> Do you know where they might have that indexed on the site? I did a quick
> search for "Ponca" and found nothing younger than fall 2004.

I couldn't find it at www.npr.org, so I searched the Web geberally for
Ponca and soot and found this:

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=06-P13-00027&segmentID=1

It turns out that the show was "Living on Earth," which is a contractor.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Tue Jul 11 09:09:38 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:09:38 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101242060.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.110938.0200.>

John,
thanks for your reply.

It is this that I wrote to Dr. L.:

"Dear Siu-Leung,
I read this press release before. I just can suggest (and hopefully 
this had been done already!) to gather and save every minute detail 
about who was the person 'discovering' the medal, his/her entire 
personal, ethnical, educational etc. background, the very details of 
when, how etc. the medal had been unearthed and, and, and... I'd 
imagine that if it were one of our cases to investigate, we'd 
interrogate that person for many days about each single detail in order 
to exclude possible fraud. Going to the public before that might be 
making it (i.e. the highly important circumstances of the discovery 
itself) a 'cold case' irreversibly. IMO, all other investigations (e.g. 
on the medal itself, not to speak of those moreorless speculative ones 
on linguistic or geological grounds) is nothing but 'secondary 
evidence' (Hilfsbeweistatsachen) and of very little value even in the 
best case that the medals authenticity is proved (and not a fake). As 
for me, I'm very skeptical, given the high interest in Chinese circles 
worldwide (albeit at least in the sense of wishful thinking!). Also, 
the fact reported by you that the 'brass' medal was not oxidated and 
only covered by soil/earth(!) actually seems to be highly ominous to 
me.
  I only can wish that something as important as this had already been 
investigated and examined to the bottom before by real experts and not 
just by enthusiastic laymen. If not, the main facts might already be 
lost for ever.

  Best wishes!"

My guess was that the term 'unaker' (and there's even a mountain with 
this name, i.e. Unaker Mt.) and the Chinese u-na(-ke) or such are 
somewhat 'similar' in sound only (hence merely coincidental as very 
often) and that there maybe the 'native' unaker actually exists in, 
say, Cherokee with an etymology of its own that possibly could be 
traced back and broken down. Actually the Chinese characters provided 
by Dr. L. read (UTF-8) 堊泥 and do not represent a 3rd syllable/word as 
it should be giving the -ke(r) of unaker. The two characters are 
spelled [è ní] in Putonghua (Mandarin), a compound word that doesn't 
exist (at least!) in modern language. The (separate) meanings of the 
words is 'chalk' and 'mud' respectively. Also, in at least one 
'southern' (i.e. Cantonese) language, the two syllables' pronunciation 
is [ok-] and [naih\] respectively what is not so strikingly close to 
the word given by Dr. L. (nor to unaker itself).
BTW, if there actually were a 3rd syllable in Chinese, (UTF-8) 殼 ké 
could be making a lot of sense: it means 'shell', somewhat reminding me 
of the Cherokee way of processing their white clay to make it smooth, 
fine and flexible, adding ground/pounded shells to the mixture.

Dr. L. provided this additional information to me:

"I bought it from a metal detector hobbyist, who does not have interest 
in it. He has no reason to spend the effort to fake something and 
charge almost nothing for it. I went to the site and did a lot of 
research in 3 months."

Alfred


Am 10.07.2006 um 21:38 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, A.W. Tüting wrote:
>> ... He owns a Chinese medal unearthed in the East Coast area (former
>> Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is reflecting about linguistic
>> relationship of the term for 'china clay' in former southern Chinese 
>> and
>> the Native American languages respectively. ...
>
> Well, it never hurts to look, though I'd be concerned in the 
> provenance of
> his artifact.  It doesn't sound like he has any way of proving where it
> came from.  The web site is full of specifics like depth in soil and
> distance from coast, but oblivious to anything of actual archaeological
> use. (...)
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jul 11 14:14:50 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 09:14:50 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.091450.0500.>

I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or resevoirs. They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, as most if not all of them can easily be read in Osage, Omaha, Ponca or Kaw. They are (in their Anglicized spellings from the map):

Neeskah

Neegronda

Neesopah

Neenoshe

Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are attempts at 'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or 'principle', as in "Neosho". Does anyone know how these lakes were named? It's hard to tell what precise language they are in. Osage and Kansa both reduce the Spanish loanword 'grande' to /laNdhe/ or /laNye/ through regular loss of the initial /g/, but that happened in historical times, as Dorsey still wrote a few of them a century ago. The other languages do not apparently have this Spanish word, although it may just not have been encountered by linguists. This area is pretty far west for the southern Siouan tribes to have penetrated except on hunting parties, but the Comanches borrowed 'bear' from Osage, so contact wasn't out of the question. It was just a little surprising to find these names so far afield. I'd have written one off to coincidence, but certainly not all 4.

Bob


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 11 14:41:04 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 07:41:04 -0700
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489495@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.074104.0700.>

Osage nii + ska may also be 'water'+ 'calm, peaceful'.  

niilaaNdhe 'big water' and niisape 'black water' seem right.  

The last one could be nii-naaNz^iN with 'stand', I suppose, perhaps 'water
one can stand in', but the construction is odd. Another possibility for
neenoshe would be nii - odhós^i with odhós^i 'in the way, blocking, in the
middle of e.g. a road or path', with a typical n~dh variation.  
Carolyn 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:15 AM
To: Siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Colorado typonyms.

I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado
between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or resevoirs.
They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, as most if not all of them
can easily be read in Osage, Omaha, Ponca or Kaw. They are (in their
Anglicized spellings from the map):

Neeskah

Neegronda

Neesopah

Neenoshe

Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are attempts at
'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or 'principle', as in
"Neosho". Does anyone know how these lakes were named? It's hard to tell
what precise language they are in. Osage and Kansa both reduce the Spanish
loanword 'grande' to /laNdhe/ or /laNye/ through regular loss of the initial
/g/, but that happened in historical times, as Dorsey still wrote a few of
them a century ago. The other languages do not apparently have this Spanish
word, although it may just not have been encountered by linguists. This area
is pretty far west for the southern Siouan tribes to have penetrated except
on hunting parties, but the Comanches borrowed 'bear' from Osage, so contact
wasn't out of the question. It was just a little surprising to find these
names so far afield. I'd have written one off to coincidence, but certainly
not all 4.

Bob




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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jul 11 17:44:08 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:44:08 +0100
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
In-Reply-To: <20060706211706.74498.qmail@web26805.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.184408.0100.>

 
Did anyone have any etymology for the  name Saone
applied to some Lakota bands.  I have never quite
understood the explanations of this term.  I was
reminded of it by the discussion on  s^aN and s^aaN or
s^aN ama as a name give to the Sioux. 

Bruce


	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine 
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 11 20:35:39 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:35:39 -0700
Subject: Article on endangered languages
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.133539.0700.>

Thought the list might be interested in this article appearing on the Lingformant blog.  It mentions Jimm Goodtracks and Ioway-Otoe, among other endangered languages.
   
  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/nsf-nnb071006.php
   
  Dave

 			
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the  all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. 
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From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 00:30:40 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:30:40 -0700
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <FDB6CC74-2A54-4C88-878A-E8BDD81940F2@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.173040.0700.>

G'day Clive,
   
  I understand the busy!
   
  > So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? >
   
  Yes, but probably not enough to dissuade one from using it as a grammatical reference resource.  The letters are there, just without the accent marks, although this could make a difference in pronunciation and meaning.  In her grammar, the words for "black" and "thin" look the same: supi and supi.  It should really be sapi, black, and supi, thin.
   
  > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
   
  Yes, I believe aNk- is cognate with Lakhota wa-.  However, as far as I know, the Southeastern Siouan languages don't differentiate like the others I guess in the accusative/ergative sense of different pronominal forms (although I believe Tutelo may have some remnant of it).  In Biloxi, aNk- appears to be the only 1st singular pronominal, although it varies with its forms aN- and x- depending on the following sound.  Einaudi goes over most of this phonology in pretty good detail I think.
   
  > Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) >
   
  Looks like it.
   
  > Does that reply to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? >
   
  Yes, I believe so.  The 'wo' on the preceding (question) sentence is the male interrogative particle; I don't think there is one for female speech.
   
  > "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota >
   
  Yes.
   
  > Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha? >
   
  Biloxi definitely shows influence, both in vocabulary and possibly grammar, from the Muskogean languages, particularly Choctaw, with which it seemed to have the most contact.  Not sure about Tunica or Chitimacha--but then I don't have dictionaries or grammars for these.  It seems logical there would be some Tunica vocabulary in Biloxi, since they've been in a rather close relationship for many years, and indeed the Biloxi currently share their reservation in Louisiana with them.  There were also borrowings, perhaps via Mobilian Trade Jargon, from Spanish and/or French, such as the words for "coffee" kaxwi/kafi and "cow" wa(a)ka, this last also shared by at least some Muskogean languages and Cherokee.
   
  > Was [Rumsien] spoken in the Carmel area? >
   
  Yes, Monterey and Carmel, cousins of the Ohlone who inhabited the San Francisco Bay Area.  In fact, English 'abalone' apparently came from Rumsien Ohlone 'awlon' via Spanish 'abulon' (accent over the 'o').
   
  I'll look forward to your Biloxi sentences!
   
  Dave

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Dave, Sorry for taking so long to reply: I've been rather busy. Thanks for all of that wonderful information you so kindly supplied! Actually I was expecting that D-S Biloxi dictionary to be fairly difficult to use, with inconsistencies & confusions galore, not just in orthography, judging from my experiences with other dictionaries/grammars of yesteryear, like Rev. Cyrus Byington's Dictionary of Choctaw, for instance. So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? (Actually I have applied to obtain it on inter-library loan : when I do get it, & I have a clearer idea of the language's basic grammatical/syntactic structures,  I may have a go at  writing you a short letter in Biloxi.)  Thank you also for that analysis of the Biloxi sentence : most interesting. Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation
 also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? Can't think of any Lakhota analogue of "ade" ("iya/ia" [=speak]; "iyapi"[=speech, language]??). Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix), or even possibly with : "iyechinka" (adv. "of one's own accord")?? ; "-spe" seems fairly obviously a cognate of Lakhota : "(uN/oN)spe" [= to know how to..."] ; "uNspékhiyA" [=" cause to know how to=>teach"; "uNspéic'iciyA" [="teach oneself=>learn"] ; with  "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota? One supposes "YaNdi" to be from same word-root as "chante" [=heart]; while "phi" [=good] might have many cognates in Lakhota : "phiic'iyA" [=to make oneself 'good'=>prepare oneself/make ready]? ; "phiya" [=to make 'good'=>to mend/repair//conjure the sick]; not to mention the many derivatives of "phila" [=to regard as 'good'=>be glad/rejoice=>be grateful/thankful]?? Does that reply
 to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? I wonder whether Biloxi had an equivalent word/phrase for "goodbye/so long/see you!" involving the equivalent of the adverb "again" &/or an indefinite adverb of time corresponding to idea of "by and by/later on/before long" etc., like Lakhota's : "toksha akhe" ?? Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha?   Thanks also for the sample of Rumsien Ohlone. Was it spoken in the Carmel area? Wonder if "Rowdy Yates" had ever heard of it? :), Best wishes, Clive.
    On 28/06/2006, at 6:10 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

    Hi Clive,
   
  > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?: another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you will have someone to write/speak to >
   
  You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user-UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a format where you can simply look up the English word and get the full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary, you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading) in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.
   
  > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically speaking? >
   
  Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade = language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye = cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."
   
  Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised grammar together along with the revised dictionary.  (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)
   
  > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey" under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok-Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter? Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >
   
  Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some propose that it includes languages all the way up into British Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do. 
   
  > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >
   
  Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French bonjour)
  How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart good?
  I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!
   
  Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!  
   
  And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in Rumsien)!
   
  Cheers,
  Dave
   
  

          

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 12 02:10:48 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:10:48 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489495@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.201048.0600.>

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado
> between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or
> resevoirs. They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, ...

Somewhere I have heard that in the days of Osage oil money some parts of
southeastern Colorado were popular with the Osage as summer vacation spots
- reached in automobiles, I gather - and for some reasons I assocate these
names with that tidbit.

FYI, see http://www.kcedf.org/demographics.htm:

> History
>
> On April 11, 1889, Colorado Governor Job A. Cooper signed a bill
> creating Kiowa County. The name was derived from the Kiowa Indians who
> hunted and lived in eastern Colorado before European's [sic] arrived.
>
> During the early settlement of Kiowa County, the naturally occurring
> Great Plains Reservoirs attracted Indians, settlers and trappers. The
> Indian named reservoirs include: Neesopah, meaning "Black Water";
> Neegronda, meaning "Big Water"; Neenoshe, meaning "Standing Water"; and
> Neeskah, meaning "Queens [sic for Queen's?] Lake". These recreational
> waters attract many people to this area today.

These placenames are glossed in Bill Bright's monumental Native American
Placenames of the United States, p, 320.  Without going into details,
David Rood, p.c., surmises NeeSkah 'white water', NeeGronda 'broad water',
NeeSopah 'entrail water', and NeeNoshe 'principle water'.

> Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are
> attempts at 'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or
> 'principle', as in "Neosho".

Carolyn Quintero's correction of NeeNoshe to 'Standing water' seems
plausible, given Osage phonology and the details of the transcription
apparently employed, and matches the views of the Kiowa County site cited
above.

Bob Rankin's correction of NeeSopah to 'black wate' also seems plausible
in this light, and also accords with the Kiowa County site.

NeeSkah as 'white water' seems more likely than 'Queen's Lake'.  There is,
of course, no Osage word for 'queen' sensu stricto, the concept being
entirely alien to Osage culture.

However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the sense of
the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche is z^e'ga
z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the old style
image of the queen (full torso, with very abbreviated legs below).  That
doesn't seem to help clarify the name, either.

One possiblity would be that someone named 'Queenie' in English but
(wak?o) ska or 'white (woman?)' in Osage was the namesake.

Another possobility is that the name "Queen's Lake" is simply an
alternative English-based name that has no connection with the name
NeeSkah.

> Does anyone know how these lakes were named?

Or when, for that matter.  Not a clue!

So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that I
am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'

Here's the link to MapQuest for a run between Eads and Lamar.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=NA&rsres=1&1ffi=&1l=&1g=&1pl=&1v=&1n=&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&1pn=&1a=&1c=eads&1s=CO&1z=&2pn=&2a=&2c=lamar&2s=CO&2z=&r=f


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 12 02:40:45 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:40:45 -0600
Subject: Biloxi and Proto-Siouan (Re: Yuecetu ..)
In-Reply-To: <20060712003040.12992.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.204045.0600.>

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006, David Kaufman wrote:
>   > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota
> "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel
> "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is
> that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota
> "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
>
>   Yes, I believe aNk- is cognate with Lakhota wa-.

Actually, it is generally accepted that Biloxi (regular) first person nk
(probably */aNk/) is cognate with Dakotan uNk 'inclusive'.  There are some
additional allomorphs, as David mentions, including n- with d-stems
(*r-stems).

>   > Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-"
> (reflexive infix) >
>
>   Looks like it.

I think the resemblance is coinsidered interesting, but I'm not sure the
correspondece is regular.

===

As David says, Einaudi's expedient of phonemicizing Biloxi by lopping off
the diacritics sometimes fails!  He's been looking into the complex issue
of a vs. u, oral and nasal!  In spite of various shortcomings, Einaudi's
book is an important step beyond Dorsey & Swanton.  I'm still looking
forward to what David doing to improve on it!


From ckopris at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 17:16:27 2006
From: ckopris at yahoo.com (Craig Kopris)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:16:27 -0700
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <49ac317b0b90a1ea2df6bf584c07be82@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.101627.0700.>

As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"

Craig Kopris

--- "A.W. Tüting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Hello experts,
> 
> a Chinese friend of mine, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, is
> doing research on the 
> topic of pre-columbian Sino-American contacts (Zheng
> He) and only 
> recently had a series of press conference and
> lectures about Zheng He 
> and America on his tour in Hongkong. He owns a
> Chinese medal unearthed 
> in the East Coast area (former Cherokee/Catawba
> territory) and is 
> reflecting about linguistic relationship of the term
> for 'china clay' 
> in former southern Chinese and the Native American
> languages 
> respectively.
> Here's what he is stating:
> 
> "The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for 
> china clay is 
> ¡§unaker¡¨, similar to what Chinese call  °îªd
> ¡§uk-na[ke]¡¨ in  southern 
> dialect. Is it a coincidence?   This happened before
> the arrival of the 
> Europeans.   The Chinese name uk-nake was used up to
> Ming dynasty.   It 
> was later replaced by other terms like china clay
> and kaolin.   A 
> Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might
> have brought  the 
> clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the
> porcelain gifts 
> (...)"
> 
> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
> opinions on this issue 
> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
> 
> Here's the link to further details:
> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
> 
> Thank's in advance!
> 
> Alfred 


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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 12 18:04:08 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:04:08 -0700
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607111907510.16922@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.110408.0700.>

JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the sense
of
the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche is z^e'ga
z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the old style
image of the queen (full torso, with very abbreviated legs below).  That
doesn't seem to help clarify the name, either.

CQ: I have OS 'queen of spades' as máaNhisi (or máahisu) wak'ó ks^e, [spade
woman LYING] [LF,RB,FH].  
For 'queen' alone, just wak'ó.
For 'female chief': wak'ó kahike [<LF, PM] 

CQ: Certainly ska 'white' is valid in Osage, but the 'clear' meaning should
not be discarded easily.  I guess it would depend on the water; was it
whitish? or was it clear?
CQ: níi ská  OR níi skáha 'clear water'; also íe ska  'speak clearly';
skaska' dhe 'peaceful, calm, tranquil' as a lake.  

CQ: nii sape 'black water' would be the Osage form (sape 'black', not *sapa
'black').

CQ:  I think in Osage, both nii 'water' and laaNdhe 'big' have long vowels.
Also 'stand': naaNziN (with long a-nasal)

.............
So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that I
am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'

Here's the link to MapQuest for a run between Eads and Lamar.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=N
A&rsres=1&1ffi=&1l=&1g=&1pl=&1v=&1n=&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&1pn=&1a=&1c=
eads&1s=CO&1z=&2pn=&2a=&2c=lamar&2s=CO&2z=&r=f




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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 12 18:07:14 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:07:14 -0700
Subject: Colorado toponyms
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.110714.0700.>

I forgot to mention another 'clear' expression in Osage:

naaN' ghe ska 'clear spirit, i.e. sober'

Carolyn


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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul 12 20:06:21 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:06:21 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.150621.0500.>

Minor corrections only.

> NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
 
laNdhe rather than with /c/.

> NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
 
sape, rather than with /a/.

> NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
> NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Wed Jul 12 20:15:05 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:15:05 +1000
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
In-Reply-To: <20060711174408.86727.qmail@web26812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.061505.1000.>

Hello Bruce, Tonikhetu hwo? Le anpetu ki mish lila matanyan. See 1999  
discussion of this topic on this list: [S^ahaN as 'Sioux'], between  
A.H. Hartley (20 Aug.1999, 20:25), and J.E.Koontz (20 Aug 11:41; 21  
Aug 15:56). Toksha akhe, Clive. P.S. Could circumflex be just  
"hypercorrection" from people who know of French river? Tuppence  
ha'penny worth from me :).
On 12/07/2006, at 3:44 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote:

>
> Did anyone have any etymology for the  name Saone
> applied to some Lakota bands.  I have never quite
> understood the explanations of this term.  I was
> reminded of it by the discussion on  s^aN and s^aaN or
> s^aN ama as a name give to the Sioux.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> 	
> 	
> 		
> ___________________________________________________________
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its  
> simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul 12 20:21:46 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:21:46 -0500
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.152146.0500.>

> Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
 
No, common Siouan /wa-/ disappeared in Biloxi.  Dorsey's "nk-" is probably [nasal schwa][k] and is thus a reflex of the 1st plural prefix in Dakota and other languages.  In other words, the way you say "I" in Biloxi is to say "we".  
 
> Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) 
 
Biloxi reflexive is ixki-/iNxki-, with cognates across Siouan.
 
Bob


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 22:21:19 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:21:19 -0700
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE60448949B@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.152119.0700.>

Ooops, did I get that wrong on the email?  That's what I get for trying to do these things at work!  (I'm glad it's almost over!)
   
  Dave

"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
  > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also? Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >

No, common Siouan /wa-/ disappeared in Biloxi. Dorsey's "nk-" is probably [nasal schwa][k] and is thus a reflex of the 1st plural prefix in Dakota and other languages. In other words, the way you say "I" in Biloxi is to say "we". 

> Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) 

Biloxi reflexive is ixki-/iNxki-, with cognates across Siouan.

Bob


 		
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 13 07:52:53 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:52:53 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <20060712171627.46129.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.095253.0200.>

Craig,
thanks a lot for your valuable input.
This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative 
expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported, since 
terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from foreign 
languages.

Any further contributions to this issue are highly appreciated.

Alfred


Am 12.07.2006 um 19:16 schrieb Craig Kopris:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
> according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
> dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"
>
> Craig Kopris
>>
>> (...)"
>>
>> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
>> opinions on this issue
>> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
>>
>> Here's the link to further details:
>> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
>>
>> Thank's in advance!
>>
>> Alfred
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:12:46 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:12:46 -0600
Subject: Colorado toponyms
In-Reply-To: <000d01c6a5de$016cd430$0202a8c0@Latitude>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.021246.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> I forgot to mention another 'clear' expression in Osage:
>
> naaN' ghe ska 'clear spirit, i.e. sober'

Isn't this morphologically naNaN'ghe + ska, cf. OP naN(aN)ghi 'ghost,
spirit'.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:09:00 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:09:00 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <20060712171627.46129.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.020900.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Craig Kopris wrote:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned, according to Pulte &
> Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for
> "white"

That sounds like it might work as the source of the English terms.  I'll
discard the "Chinese textual source" hypothesis.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:27:23 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:27:23 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <000c01c6a5dd$92e38ea0$0202a8c0@Latitude>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.022723.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the
> sense of the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche
> is z^e'ga z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the
> old style image of the queen ...

I haven't found the OP term, so I can't tell if this is an OP-ism.

> CQ: I have OS 'queen of spades' as máaNhisi (or máahisu) wak'ó ks^e, [spade
> woman LYING] [LF,RB,FH].
> For 'queen' alone, just wak'ó.

Referring to the face card?

> For 'female chief': wak'ó kahike [<LF, PM]

Along the same lines, Swetland gives mi gahi 'female leader'.  But I'm not
sure if the concept applies except to translate European conceptions.

> CQ: Certainly ska 'white' is valid in Osage, but the 'clear' meaning should
> not be discarded easily.  I guess it would depend on the water; was it
> whitish? or was it clear?

I would guess clear.  I didn't mean to reject the reading clear.

> CQ: nii sape 'black water' would be the Osage form (sape 'black', not *sapa
> 'black').

Oops.  My error.  OP sabe, etc.
>
> CQ:  I think in Osage, both nii 'water' and laaNdhe 'big' have long vowels.
> Also 'stand': naaNziN (with long a-nasal)

Sorry - I'm not being consistant about long vowels yet.

> So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that
> I am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niNiN graNaNdhe (newer pronunciation niNiN laNaNdhe)
  'big water'  (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V; dh = English th in that)
NeeSopah = niNiN saape 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niNiN naNaNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niNiN skaa 'clear water'

niNiN might be better as 'lake' than as 'water'


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:39:36 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:39:36 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <9c7d5871032a36748becbc9a526729ca@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.023936.0600.>

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T�ting wrote:
> This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
> expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported,

Yes.  It would be a Cherokee loan in English, I guess!

> since terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from
> foreign languages.

I don't know if I'd go along with this, however, although I don't believe
it was being suggested that Cherokee had borrwed a color term.

Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.

Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable in
Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so.

Or consider that Dakota has two terms for 'red', neither of which is
cognate with the usual terms in the rest of MVS.

For that matter, several of the MVS color terms have resemblants in
Uto-Aztecan, though it's hard to know what to make of that.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:41:29 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:41:29 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607130213010.124@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.024129.0600.>

Er - make that toponyms!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 13 10:22:35 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:22:35 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607130229050.124@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.122235.0200.>

John,
thanks for your answer.
I actually was a bit hesitant about the 'colour' issue somewhat 
expecting your objections ;-) yet, I don't think that - within a 
certain period of time according to our context here - there are 
peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic colours so 
there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g. like 
Chinese). This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't change 
within one language or related languages.

 >  Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.  <

This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc., 
maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

 >  Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable 
in Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so. <

My point wasn't that they aren't underlying changes, the more when new 
(daughter) languages are forming out (of certain dialects, military 
jargons etc.). One example I have in mind is Romanian 
_albastru/albastrã_ for 'blue', or Spanish _colorado_, _tinto_ for 
'red'.

BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs. 
su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

For who's interested in, here's a Cherokee word list online:
http://www.wehali.com/tsalagi/index.cfm

Alfred


Am 13.07.2006 um 10:39 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Tüting wrote:
>> This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
>> expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported,
>
> Yes.  It would be a Cherokee loan in English, I guess!
>
>> since terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from
>> foreign languages.
>
> I don't know if I'd go along with this, however, although I don't 
> believe
> it was being suggested that Cherokee had borrwed a color term.
>
> Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.
>
> Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable in
> Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so.
>
> Or consider that Dakota has two terms for 'red', neither of which is
> cognate with the usual terms in the rest of MVS.
>
> For that matter, several of the MVS color terms have resemblants in
> Uto-Aztecan, though it's hard to know what to make of that.
>
>
>


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jul 13 14:26:20 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:26:20 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.092620.0500.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the
> sense of the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche
> is z^e'ga z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the
> old style image of the queen ...

>>>I haven't found the OP term, so I can't tell if this is an OP-ism.

The only Ponca term that I am aware of for "queen" in a deck of cards is:
wa'u z^iNga (old woman)


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul 13 15:03:52 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:03:52 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.100352.0500.>

I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's natural resources.  The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three syllables.  I never thought more about it until this thread.  I guess it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English.  I have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in Chinese?  I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of A.W. Tüting
Sent: Thu 7/13/2006 2:52 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Cc: A.W. Tüting
Subject: Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay'



Craig,
thanks a lot for your valuable input.
This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported, since
terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from foreign
languages.

Any further contributions to this issue are highly appreciated.

Alfred


Am 12.07.2006 um 19:16 schrieb Craig Kopris:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
> according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
> dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"
>
> Craig Kopris
>>
>> (...)"
>>
>> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
>> opinions on this issue
>> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
>>
>> Here's the link to further details:
>> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
>>
>> Thank's in advance!
>>
>> Alfred
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/> 
>


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Thu Jul 13 21:29:02 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:29:02 +1000
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.072902.1000.>

In BAE-AR (15:205-244) 1893-94, a posthumous paper entitled "Siouan  
Sociology" by James Owen DORSEY(1848-95), he had the following to  
say, in his section on the "gentes" of the Lower Yanktonai, or  
HuNkpatina (Page 218) (in a listing of 7 gens  
names) :                                                                 
                                                                         
                                                                "4,  
SaN-ona (SaN-ona [spelled with Riggsean angma]) Shot-at-some-white- 
object; this name originated FROM KILLING AN ALBINO BUFFALO ; A  
HUNKPAPA CHIEF SAID THAT REFUGEES OR STRANGERS FROM ANOTHER TRIBE  
WERE SO CALLED." (My  
capitals).                                                               
                                                                         
                   Incidentally, Dorsey's paper is preceeded by a  
poignant brief commemorative/biographical note, recording his career  
achievements & early death at age 47, of typhoid fever, in  
Washington, on Feb.4, 1895, penned by one "W.J.M." Could that be  
Washington Matthews (1842-1905) of Hidatsa Grammar & Dictionary fame?  
Regards to all, Clive Bloomfield. 


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Thu Jul 13 22:37:47 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:37:47 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.083747.1000.>

Don't think this message got through, the first time, for some reason.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 14 July 2006 7:29:02 AM
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
>
> In BAE-AR (15:205-244) 1893-94, a posthumous paper entitled "Siouan  
> Sociology" by James Owen DORSEY(1848-95), he had the following to  
> say, in his section on the "gentes" of the Lower Yanktonai, or  
> HuNkpatina (Page 218) (in a listing of 7 gens  
> names) :                                                               
>                                                                        
>                                                                    
> "4, SaN-ona (SaN-ona [spelled with Riggsean angma]) Shot-at-some- 
> white-object; this name originated FROM KILLING AN ALBINO BUFFALO ;  
> A HUNKPAPA CHIEF SAID THAT REFUGEES OR STRANGERS FROM ANOTHER TRIBE  
> WERE SO CALLED." (My  
> capitals).                                                             
>                                                                        
>                      Incidentally, Dorsey's paper is preceeded by a  
> poignant brief commemorative/biographical note, recording his  
> career achievements & early death at age 47, of typhoid fever, in  
> Washington, on Feb.4, 1895, penned by one "W.J.M." Could that be  
> Washington Matthews (1842-1905) of Hidatsa Grammar & Dictionary  
> fame? Regards to all, Clive Bloomfield.

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Jul 14 06:20:56 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:20:56 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894A2@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.082056.0200.>

Bob,
this is what I've come up with:

kaolin
"china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese Kao-ling, 
transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China (near which 
it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling "mountain, 
hill."

I think that the 'French' term kaolin came back into Chinese what is 
gao1 ling3 (tu3) in Pinyin romanization (lit.: earth from Gaoling 
mountain); gao ling is "high mountain range"
UTF-8 高嶺(土); another term for kaolin is tao2tu3 陶土  (lit.: pottery 
earth). Another term is bai2 tu3 白土 (lit.: white earth).

Alfred

Am 13.07.2006 um 17:03 schrieb Rankin, Robert L:

> I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High 
> School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's 
> natural resources.  The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three 
> syllables.  I never thought more about it until this thread.  I guess 
> it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English.  I 
> have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in 
> Chinese?  I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones.

> Bob
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Jul 15 16:18:12 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 11:18:12 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.111812.0500.>

Thanks, that's a lot better than my dictionary had.   Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of A.W. Tüting
Sent: Fri 7/14/2006 1:20 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Cc: A.W. Tüting
Subject: Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay'


Bob, 
this is what I've come up with: 

kaolin 
"china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese Kao-ling, transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China (near which it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling "mountain, hill." 

I think that the 'French' term kaolin came back into Chinese what is gao1 ling3 (tu3) in Pinyin romanization (lit.: earth from Gaoling mountain); gao ling is "high mountain range" 
UTF-8 ??(?); another term for kaolin is tao2tu3 ?? (lit.: pottery earth). Another term is bai2 tu3 ?? (lit.: white earth). 

Alfred 

Am 13.07.2006 um 17:03 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: 


	I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's natural resources. The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three syllables. I never thought more about it until this thread. I guess it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English. I have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in Chinese? I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones. 


	Bob 


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul 15 20:06:25 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:06:25 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <59e6f601f69957013712d88a17ab7019@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.140625.0600.>

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T�ting wrote:
> kaolin "china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese
> Kao-ling, transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China
> (near which it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling
> "mountain, hill."

Bob's pronunciation is what my cousin in Wyoming used, allowing for
English dialects.  I can't remember where he stressed it.  Initially in
think.

What about the other term - the u(k)na[ke] one?  Any evidence it was ever
used in the early ceramics trade?  I suppose we might want to consider
"coincidences" noticed by early investigators.  I recall one of the French
explorers being lambasted by a later scholar for claiming that the Dakota
word for "Sun" was "Louis."  He was more or less, right, of course.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul 15 19:59:22 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:59:22 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <54a68de82d0b3370ea5494babc65be57@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.135922.0600.>

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Tüting wrote:
> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
> colours ...

I'm not sure where we are on the corrections of, revisions to, and
rejections of the Berlin & Kay color typology, but they suggested that
there was a hierarchy of sorts or set of attested states, in color
systems, ranging from two-color ('dark' and 'light') systems, to more
elaborate ones.

Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 'red',
'yellow', 'grue'.  In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which is,
I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can happen,
there should be a division of 'grue' to 'blue' and 'green', and a specific
'brown' term.  However, I've seen an article suggesting that there are
systems that augment the five-color system above with a 'wild color' term
that applies to obscure or muted colors in the 'gray', 'brown', 'violet'
range.  The author cited examples in Africa and North America.  I don't
recall the reference, and I'm trying to free up the computer for my
daughter, so I'll postpone the reference.  The North American example was
an Apachean langauge, not a Siouan one.  I had never seen Siouan 'gray'
terms applied to violet, but a little looking turned up a Dhegiha gloss
consistent with this.

> so there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g.
> like Chinese).  This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't
> change within one language or related languages.

For example, by coinages.  For example, most Siouan languages now have
distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'.  In Omaha-Ponca I've seen one
approach that uses ttu 'grue' for 'blue' and ppez^ettu 'grass grue' for
'green' - I think this is the current Omaha pattern - and another -
offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think - that uses ttu 'grue' for
'green' and ttu sabe 'dark grue' for 'blue'.

>  >  Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.  <
>
> This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc.,
> maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

Yes - my point was that French has borrowed a Germanic form.

> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa?  The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. s^apa
alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan.  I
don't know if they play out in exactly the eame way in each language or
how far this goes into other branches of Siouan.  I've sometimes thought
that perhaps it was just a case of having distinct terms for 'dark' and
'light' (or 'pale') on the one hand (s^abe and saN in OP) and for 'black'
and 'white' (or 'clear!  :-)) on the other (sabe and ska in OP).

The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' scheme
for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to pursue
sometime!  I think some of the oddities must be standard 'anthropological
(or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of the
(mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, and
so on.

Somewhat far afield, 'second dative' for the kic^i- forms in Dakota seems
to have been coined by Dorsey.


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 16 05:56:49 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:56:49 -0700
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151330020.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.225649.0700.>

> most Siouan languages now have distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'. >
   
  Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess, thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.
   
  Dave

Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
  On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Tüting wrote:
> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
> colours ...

I'm not sure where we are on the corrections of, revisions to, and
rejections of the Berlin & Kay color typology, but they suggested that
there was a hierarchy of sorts or set of attested states, in color
systems, ranging from two-color ('dark' and 'light') systems, to more
elaborate ones.

Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 'red',
'yellow', 'grue'. In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which is,
I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can happen,
there should be a division of 'grue' to 'blue' and 'green', and a specific
'brown' term. However, I've seen an article suggesting that there are
systems that augment the five-color system above with a 'wild color' term
that applies to obscure or muted colors in the 'gray', 'brown', 'violet'
range. The author cited examples in Africa and North America. I don't
recall the reference, and I'm trying to free up the computer for my
daughter, so I'll postpone the reference. The North American example was
an Apachean langauge, not a Siouan one. I had never seen Siouan 'gray'
terms applied to violet, but a little looking turned up a Dhegiha gloss
consistent with this.

> so there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g.
> like Chinese). This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't
> change within one language or related languages.

For example, by coinages. For example, most Siouan languages now have
distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'. In Omaha-Ponca I've seen one
approach that uses ttu 'grue' for 'blue' and ppez^ettu 'grass grue' for
'green' - I think this is the current Omaha pattern - and another -
offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think - that uses ttu 'grue' for
'green' and ttu sabe 'dark grue' for 'blue'.

> > Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu. <
>
> This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc.,
> maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

Yes - my point was that French has borrowed a Germanic form.

> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa? The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. s^apa
alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan. I
don't know if they play out in exactly the eame way in each language or
how far this goes into other branches of Siouan. I've sometimes thought
that perhaps it was just a case of having distinct terms for 'dark' and
'light' (or 'pale') on the one hand (s^abe and saN in OP) and for 'black'
and 'white' (or 'clear! :-)) on the other (sabe and ska in OP).

The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' scheme
for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to pursue
sometime! I think some of the oddities must be standard 'anthropological
(or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of the
(mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, and
so on.

Somewhat far afield, 'second dative' for the kic^i- forms in Dakota seems
to have been coined by Dorsey.





 		
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 09:30:07 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:30:07 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151402140.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.113007.0200.>

My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do 
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally 
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).
I'd like to summarize what are my tentative conclusions so far (plz 
correct/object etc. if necessary!):
(the following is a quote from my response to Dr. SLL)

  I'd state (as pretty obvious)

  1)
  that the American term 'unaker' (as a denotation of 'Kaolin' or 'white 
clay') has to do with Unaker Mt. (obviously the place of this natural 
resource in the US).

  2)
  This place seems to be located in North Carolina (having to do with 
peoples (once) living there, e.g. the Cherokee).

  3)
  The term 'unaker' seems to be based on the Cherokee word for the 
colour 'white', i.e. _unega_ or _yonega_ (the American spelling of [g] 
given as /k/ and the schwa-like [a] spelled as /e(r)/ seems very common 
(as - partly - pointed out already): in Native American tongues, 
consonants very often can have several different pronunciations, e.g. 
in Lakota, the consonant /k/ has three distinct pronunciations, namely 
[k], [kh] and [kx] which means that only [k] is unaspirated, hence - 
according to the different orthographic ways - often are written as 
/g/. This 'hard' (unaspirated) consonant doesn't exist in English 
except if NOT intervocalic. This also holds for Cherokee /g/ (a 
voiceless but unaspirated consonant that speakers of English actually 
'hear' as [k]). The English way to give it as /k/ is misleading.

  4)
  What IMO is highly doubtful here is the crucial question of whether or 
not the Cherokee term for the (basic) colour 'white' is a loan word 
from a southern-chinese dialect. Colour words can undergo changes 
within one language or within related languages (e.g. the different 
words for 'blue' or 'red' in Romance languages e.g. 'blu'/'azurro', 
'azul', 'bleu'... but 'albastru/albastrã' in Romanian). But I don't 
think that one would take a term for it from a so distant language as 
Chinese. (This wouldn't hold for a very special foreign pigment or dyer 
like indigo 藍 lan2 that even is a loan word in Chinese.)

(...)

  As far as I can state in the moment, the final -r (of unaker) might be 
due to a - former - special way of notation by earlier linguists in 
order to indicate that the preceding vowel has to be pronounced.
  I'd tend to assume that the word 'unaker' might derive from an 
original Native American term only coincidentally (and quite vaguely!) 
of somewhat similar sound(?)/spelling(?) to that obscure 'southern 
Chinese' word given by SL. 堊泥 (e4 ni2) as such doesn't appear to exist 
in modern Chinese language(s) - the consisting parts of it would be 
pronounced in - at least - one 'southern' (i.e. Cantonese) language, 
[ok-] and [naih\] respectively what is not so strikingly close to the 
term mentioned.


Up to the moment, my friend didn't provide the 3rd word/syllable in 
Chinese character (telling - as far as I could grasp his idea - that 
this ending '-ke' was a pecularity of southern dialects, i.e. 
Cantonese, Hakka or Jiangxi).
I had a pretty vague idea to support his assumption: had the 3rd word 
actually been 殼 ke2 (shell), this word could have indicated the special 
Cherokee way of processing white clay adding ground shells to the 
mixture to make it fine and flexible. This word is pronounced hok_ in 
Cantonese (and also in Hakka or Jiangxi) so there would not be a 
similar sound to '-ga' (of Cherokee unega).

Alfred

(for the Chinese characters' correct display, plz switch to UTF-8 
encoding)


Am 15.07.2006 um 22:06 schrieb Koontz John E:

> What about the other term - the u(k)na[ke] one?  Any evidence it was 
> ever
> used in the early ceramics trade?  I suppose we might want to consider
> "coincidences" noticed by early investigators.
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 09:46:28 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:46:28 +0200
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151330020.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.114628.0200.>


Am 15.07.2006 um 21:59 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Tüting wrote:
>> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
>> colours ...
>
> (...) Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 
> 'red',
> 'yellow', 'grue'.  In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which 
> is,
> I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can 
> happen,
> there should be a division of 'grue' (...)


Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)


>> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
>> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).
>
> Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa?  The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. 
> s^apa
> alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan. 
> (...)


I don't think so (i.e. in Chinese). All I can think of is the colour 青 
qing1 which can be green, blue or black. IMO, a better 
definition/designation would be 'colour of nature': going together with 
'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It 
doesn't really stand for 'black' but for a deep greyish violet or such.


> The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
> glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
> scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' 
> scheme
> for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to 
> pursue
> sometime!  I think some of the oddities must be standard 
> 'anthropological
> (or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of 
> the
> (mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, 
> and
> so on.

Very interesting!!


Alfred
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Jul 16 14:03:12 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:03:12 +0100
Subject: color terms
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.150312.0100.>

As I understand it, Cherokee /yonega/ is also used as the term for
'white man' and is the term used for 'English' on the front cover of
Feeling and Pulte's Cherokee-English Dictionary.  I've seen the form
'yowanega', too - is that plural?  (My knowledge of Cherokee is less
than a smattering.)

Most varieties of Chinese I know about have pai/pak for 'white'.

Not only Romance languages have borrowed basic color terms (though
hthey do seem to have shed a lot of the earlier Latin terminology; a
similar fate befell cardinal direction terms); Armernian took 'black'
and 'white' from Parthian.  

Anthony
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 15:42:09 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:42:09 +0200
Subject: color terms
In-Reply-To: <44BA5530020000A600000760@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.174209.0200.>


Am 16.07.2006 um 16:03 schrieb Anthony Grant:

> As I understand it, Cherokee /yonega/ is also used as the term for
> 'white man' and is the term used for 'English' on the front cover of
> Feeling and Pulte's Cherokee-English Dictionary.  I've seen the form
> 'yowanega', too - is that plural?  (My knowledge of Cherokee is less
> than a smattering.)

'yo-wa-nega' might be "I'm a white man" (??) cf. Lakota 'maska' (I'm 
white) fr. 'ská' (to be white) or 'wa-ma-sicun' (I'm a white man) fr. 
wasicun [was^i'cun].


> Most varieties of Chinese I know about have pai/pak for 'white'.

These are just different dialects or romanizations respectively for the 
same word 白 (white, clear, understandable, wrong - of a written 
character):
Pinyin bai2,
Wade-Giles pai,
Cantonese baahk_

BTW, as for John's remarks on sapA vs. s^apA (the latter: dirty, 
blackened, defiled): I also found Lakota 'ská' vs. skákA (the latter 
meaning: doubtfully white or grey, as a house seen from a 
distance(sic!) ).

Alfred
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 17 10:33:10 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 04:33:10 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <1dd595905b92a6752d8bef5a6e664c1a@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.043310.0600.>

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T�ting wrote:
> Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)

'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
'green' ranges.

> ... going together with 'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with
> 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It doesn't really stand for 'black'
> but for a deep greyish violet or such.

It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul 17 17:46:33 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:46:33 +0200
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607170430380.13722@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.194633.0200.>


Am 17.07.2006 um 12:33 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Tüting wrote:
>> Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)
>
> 'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
> 'green' ranges.
>
>> ... going together with 'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with
>> 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It doesn't really stand for 'black'
>> but for a deep greyish violet or such.
>
> It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.


John,

> 'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
> 'green' ranges.

Yes, but there's a still more sophisticated use of 'grue' (i.e. with 
t=time involved), so I was a bit puzzled at first glance :)

> It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.

Would you plz tell me more about this use of 'grey'?

BTW, colours (and especially qing1 se4) are a vast field for 
discussion. I'd recommend to visit this interesting discussion on a 
Cantonese board here

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,8335,8335

on the different shades of qing (including the colour of deep black 
e.g. black eyes, black hair 玄青 xuanqing, 青絲 qing si (lit.: black silk); 
this term also referring to shredded green plums used in pastries). 
Anyway, although being quite exaustive, the thread doesn't cover all 
shades of qing :)

Alfred
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 18:15:48 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:15:48 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <a4a13b64a9cd76de5faca4ed8a80aae6@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.131548.0500.>

Alfred wrote:
> My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).

Alfred, before we write these words off as coincidence, can we confirm that
the southern Chinese u(k)na(ke) word existed prior to the Ming naval
expeditions?  (Just to make sure that the borrowing was not in the other
direction.)

Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 19:04:07 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:04:07 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <20060716055649.7392.qmail@web53815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.140407.0500.>

Dave wrote:
> Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.

These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
aren't they?  This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
of new words.  The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive.  So did
Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?

For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN.  In Dorsey, I
believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'.  But in modern Omaha, our
speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
u'udaN.  We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
'handsome'.  Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.

I would understand the Ofo set described as:

  ithohi - grue (standard term)  'blue'

  itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form)  'green'

The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
'green'.  We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for
'unripe'.

Rory


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Jul 17 19:53:14 2006
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:53:14 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <OF4CF61AED.6A445547-ON862571AE.0065158F-862571AE.0067593E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.135314.0600.>

I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody 
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in 
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in 
diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also 
a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child, 
or such.

Mary

At 01:04 PM 7/17/2006, you wrote:
>Dave wrote:
> > Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
>thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
>separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
>the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
>while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
>think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
>different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
>color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.
>
>These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
>aren't they?  This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
>John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
>of new words.  The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
>the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive.  So did
>Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?
>
>For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN.  In Dorsey, I
>believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'.  But in modern Omaha, our
>speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
>u'udaN.  We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
>actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
>'handsome'.  Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.
>
>I would understand the Ofo set described as:
>
>   ithohi - grue (standard term)  'blue'
>
>   itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form)  'green'
>
>The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
>of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
>they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
>'green'.  We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
>'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for
>'unripe'.
>
>Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 20:09:19 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:09:19 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20060717134146.01ef7ea8@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.150919.0500.>

Mary wrote:
> I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in

diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also

a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
or such.

Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
Does Dakotan also have it?

Rory


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Jul 17 21:58:58 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:58:58 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.165858.0500.>

You might want to go back to the 20's or 30's and read Sapir's article on size/sound symbolism in one of the psychology journals; I don't have the ref. right now.  Stanley Newman may have had a similar article, and some of Greenberg's typology students have written about it in the Stanford Working Papers on Linguistic Universals back in the '70's or '80's.  Basically higher, fronter vocoids were associated with 'small, angular, feminine, etc.' while lower, backer vowels were associated with 'blunt, large, masc., etc.' pretty much worldwide.  Consonants share these semantic associations with acute consonants giving the 'sharp, bright, small, feminine' readings and grave consonants the opposed affective meanings.  It's interesting stuff.  Of course such things have been known, more or less, since the time of Aristotle and gave rise to the natural vs. conventional theories of language in ancient times.  It doesn't pay to take it to extremes, but these are interesting phonological/psychological properties.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 3:09 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')



Mary wrote:
> I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in

diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also

a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
or such.

Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
Does Dakotan also have it?

Rory


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Jul 17 23:48:57 2006
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:48:57 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894B2@MAILBOXSIX.home.k u.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.174857.0600.>

Bob is right; this literature is interesting and probably relevant to the 
features we're discussing.  But when you consider that "consonantal 
symbolism" is (or was) systematized in Siouan in both plain and glottalized 
spirant series, and was productive in the lexicons of many (most?) of these 
languages, the linguistic universal explanation seems more like a "Just So" 
story and less like any sort of historical argument.  I have never found 
the semantic side of this argument terribly convincing, either.  (Look at 
some of the sets recorded for Hocank by Susman, and for Dakotan in the 
various dictionaries.)  As for Cree, sure, a puppy is a little dog - no 
problem there.  But where does the "pitiful" and "compassionate" part come 
in?  Wesahkecahk sometimes talks this way in the stories, and Cree speakers 
say that it sounds "pitiful" (See Wolfart in HNAI, 17, 434).  Cree speakers 
have told me that it is appropriate to use the palatalized "compassionate" 
style with some interlocutors, but not others.  It seems to me that these 
phenomena are specific linguistic features which can function in different 
ways in the lexicons and speech styles of the various languages in which 
they are noted, and that, as such, they can be studied the same way we look 
at other linguistic features.

Mary

At 03:58 PM 7/17/2006, you wrote:
>You might want to go back to the 20's or 30's and read Sapir's article on 
>size/sound symbolism in one of the psychology journals; I don't have the 
>ref. right now.  Stanley Newman may have had a similar article, and some 
>of Greenberg's typology students have written about it in the Stanford 
>Working Papers on Linguistic Universals back in the '70's or 
>'80's.  Basically higher, fronter vocoids were associated with 'small, 
>angular, feminine, etc.' while lower, backer vowels were associated with 
>'blunt, large, masc., etc.' pretty much worldwide.  Consonants share these 
>semantic associations with acute consonants giving the 'sharp, bright, 
>small, feminine' readings and grave consonants the opposed affective 
>meanings.  It's interesting stuff.  Of course such things have been known, 
>more or less, since the time of Aristotle and gave rise to the natural vs. 
>conventional theories of language in ancient times.  It doesn't pay to 
>take it to extremes, but these are interesting phonological/psychological 
>properties.
>
>Bob
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson
>Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 3:09 PM
>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>Subject: Re: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
>
>
>
>Mary wrote:
> > I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
>has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
>Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in
>
>diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also
>
>a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
>or such.
>
>Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
>Does Dakotan also have it?
>
>Rory
>
>
>


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 18 05:56:13 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:56:13 -0700
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <OF4CF61AED.6A445547-ON862571AE.0065158F-862571AE.0067593E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.225613.0700.>

> We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries, 'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for 'unripe'. >
   
  You're right about thohi also being used for 'unripe'.  At this point I'm really not aware of a "diminutive" consonant alternation in Biloxi, although I'm sure it's quite possible as you suggest.  In fact, I don't think I've yet come across any type of diminutive suffix in Biloxi; usually it seems yiNki 'little/small' is used, as in coNki 'dog' and coNki yiNki 'puppy' (little dog).
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  Dave wrote:
> Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
thohi. But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
the latter. I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
think? It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.

These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
aren't they? This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
of new words. The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive. So did
Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?

For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN. In Dorsey, I
believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'. But in modern Omaha, our
speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
u'udaN. We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
'handsome'. Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.

I would understand the Ofo set described as:

ithohi - grue (standard term) 'blue'

itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form) 'green'

The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
'green'. We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term. It may also stand for
'unripe'.

Rory



 		
---------------------------------
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Jul 18 10:54:15 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:54:15 +0100
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUL.2006.115415.0100.>

Folks: for me the 'first stop' is Johanna Nichols' article on this in Language in (about) 1970.  She explores this issue in some detail (concentrating on languages of the Far West), and does use some data from Lakhota or Santee, I forget which.  The book on sound symbolism that Leanne Hinton coedited is also germane to this.

I recall from the 90s that Hanis Coos, of coastal Oregon, has /puus/ 'cat' (an English loan rather than one from Chinook Jargon pi$pi$) and its expected equivalent /puuk/ for 'kitten' - an interesting case of such a change affecting a loanword.

Anthony



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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Wed Jul 19 10:37:53 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:37:53 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <44BCCBE7020000A6000009D4@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.123753.0200.>

Alfred wrote:
 >> My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).<<<<

Rory wrote:
 > Alfred, before we write these words off as coincidence, can we 
confirm that
the southern Chinese u(k)na(ke) word existed prior to the Ming naval
expeditions?  (Just to make sure that the borrowing was not in the other
direction.) <<

Rory, that's what my friend replied to this:

" Dear Alfred,

  I cannot confirm to you down to the timing. In southern dialect, we 
seldom use "tu". We always use "na(ke)", particularly if it is mixed 
with water. U(k)na(ke) is still used in Taiwan. You can do a google 
search on the term. When it is colloquial, it is hard to determine the 
exact period. Because once it is written, it might be different.

  I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters 
let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since 
ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if 
other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it. 
These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think 
there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to 
marry outside and their small population. "

As already mentioned here, u(k) + na(ke) would be e4 + ni2 in Putonghua 
(UTF-8) 堊 (chalk) + 泥 (mud, clay). tu3 土 (soil, land, earth) or nitu 泥土 
(soil) is the modern expression.

It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty 
common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general 
and not restricted to the production of porcelain).

Alfred

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 19 16:15:28 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:15:28 -0600
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <8aae07ab3c091c0ffd7e3810b57a0903@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.101528.0600.>

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T�ting wrote:
>   I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters
> let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since
> ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if
> other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it.
> These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think
> there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to
> marry outside and their small population. "

I think there might be some vagueness on the chronology here.  I assume
that aboriginal Catawba pottery was a thing of the past by the 1700s, if
the progress of matters in the East was anything like that in the
Mississippi Valley.  Most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan groups were
quite vague on the whole process of making pots by the late 1800s, as they
had been using trade equivalents for so long.  Radin elicited quite a
fanciful process from Winnebago speakers.  Whether any modern Catawba
folks have taken up ceramics again, I couldn't say.

> It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty
> common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
> and not restricted to the production of porcelain).

Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the diagnostic
features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to maize
boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.

It's not clear to me on what basis and at what time Mt. Unaker was named,
i.e., whether by the European commercializers of the kaolin digging
operations, or earlier, by the Cherokee.  There are a fair number of
"White Mountains" in the world, of course, named so for various reasons.
I recently drove over Red Hill Pass in South Park and noticed that the
slopes were indeed somewhat reddish, especially by contrast with the soil
of the main park basin.


From BARudes at aol.com  Wed Jul 19 16:41:15 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:41:15 EDT
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.124115.EDT.>

In a message dated 7/19/2006 12:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:

> Subj: Re: Color terms and consonant symbolism 
>  Date: 7/19/2006 12:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu
>  Reply-to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>  Sent from the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Ting wrote:
> >  I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters
> >let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since
> >ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if
> >other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it.
> >These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think
> >there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to
> >marry outside and their small population. "
> 
> I think there might be some vagueness on the chronology here.  I assume
> that aboriginal Catawba pottery was a thing of the past by the 1700s, if
> the progress of matters in the East was anything like that in the
> Mississippi Valley.  Most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan groups were
> quite vague on the whole process of making pots by the late 1800s, as they
> had been using trade equivalents for so long.  Radin elicited quite a
> fanciful process from Winnebago speakers.  Whether any modern Catawba
> folks have taken up ceramics again, I couldn't say.
> 
> >It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty
> >common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
> >and not restricted to the production of porcelain).
> 
> Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
> seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
> report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the diagnostic
> features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
> including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to maize
> boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
> Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
> sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.
> 
> It's not clear to me on what basis and at what time Mt. Unaker was named,
> i.e., whether by the European commercializers of the kaolin digging
> operations, or earlier, by the Cherokee.  There are a fair number of
> "White Mountains" in the world, of course, named so for various reasons.
> I recently drove over Red Hill Pass in South Park and noticed that the
> slopes were indeed somewhat reddish, especially by contrast with the soil
> of the main park basin.
> 
> 

Pottery making never died out among the Catawbas. It was the one thing that 
served to "define" Catawba culture from prehistoric times up to the present. 
The tradition is very old (dating to the Late Archaic Period) and indigenous to 
the Carolinas. During the 19th and early centuries is was still widely made 
and sold as a tourist item. The tradition died back (but not out) in the middle 
of the twentieth century with dispersal of the Catawbas and the loss of 
federal recognition. In 1965, one Catawba woman wrote that "there is no one here (on 
the reservation) now that speaks or would understand the Catawba language. 
Only a few of the older women make the pottery any more. I still make it." 
(Doris Wheelock Blue, quoted in Douglas Summer Brown, The Catawba Indians: The 
People of the River, USC Press, 1966, p. 365). Brown goes on to comment that "is 
pottery, the single, most characteristic Catawba artifact, the last link with 
these ancient people and their ancient ways?" (p. 365). Pottery making 
underwent a resurrgence in the late twentieth century and there are now a fair number 
of master potters among the Catawba.

As the anthropologist Frank Speck documented, the Catawba pottery tradition 
was brought to the Cherokee in the mid-19th century when a number of Catawbas 
married Cherokees and moved to Cherokee land. Thus, it is unlikely that the use 
of the Cherokee word for 'white' in reference to pottery dates any earlier 
than the mid-19th century. I should also not that there are no terms related to 
pottery making in Catawba that bear any resemblence to Cherokee uneka 'white' 
or the Chinese term.

Blair 
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 09:34:59 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:34:59 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607190959500.18749@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.113459.0200.>

Am 19.07.2006 um 18:15 schrieb Koontz John E:

>> It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a 
>> pretty
>> common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
>> and not restricted to the production of porcelain).
>
> Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
> seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
> report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the 
> diagnostic
> features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
> including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to 
> maize
> boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
> Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
> sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.


My remark.
Your dates are highly interesting since this would be prior to Zheng He 
and his questionable 'discovery' of North Carolina. Adding burnt/ground 
shells to the clay by the Cherokee (etc.) potters is a fact; I only 
didn't know since when this process had been familiar to Natives of 
North America.

Alfred


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 10:16:07 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:16:07 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <318.6c884d5.31efbaab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.121607.0200.>

Blair, thanks a lot. Your comment is most valuable to judge this issue 
:)

Alfred

Am 19.07.2006 um 18:41 schrieb BARudes at aol.com:

>  Pottery making never died out among the Catawbas. It was the one 
> thing that served to "define" Catawba culture from prehistoric times 
> up to the present. The tradition is very old (dating to the Late 
> Archaic Period) and indigenous to the Carolinas. During the 19th and 
> early centuries is was still widely made and sold as a tourist item. 
> The tradition died back (but not out) in the middle of the twentieth 
> century with dispersal of the Catawbas and the loss of federal 
> recognition. In 1965, one Catawba woman wrote that "there is no one 
> here (on the reservation) now that speaks or would understand the 
> Catawba language. Only a few of the older women make the pottery any 
> more. I still make it." (Doris Wheelock Blue, quoted in Douglas Summer 
> Brown, The Catawba Indians: The People of the River, USC Press, 1966, 
> p. 365). Brown goes on to comment that "is pottery, the single, most 
> characteristic Catawba artifact, the last link with these ancient 
> people and their ancient ways?" (p. 365). Pottery making underwent a 
> resurrgence in the late twentieth century and there are now a fair 
> number of master potters among the Catawba.
>
>  As the anthropologist Frank Speck documented, the Catawba pottery 
> tradition was brought to the Cherokee in the mid-19th century when a 
> number of Catawbas married Cherokees and moved to Cherokee land. Thus, 
> it is unlikely that the use of the Cherokee word for 'white' in 
> reference to pottery dates any earlier than the mid-19th century. I 
> should also not that there are no terms related to pottery making in 
> Catawba that bear any resemblence to Cherokee uneka 'white' or the 
> Chinese term.
>
>  Blair
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 14:59:15 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:59:15 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894A2@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.165915.0200.>

Dr. SLL wrote to me:

 > (...) I am also puzzled by the absence of the word unaker in Catawba. 
But they call clay and pot by the same sound i-to or i-tu. Could you 
ask the experts to confirm this? There is an online English-Catawba 
dictionary. I am not quite sure of the notations there. <<


This statement on Catawba 'i-to', 'i-tu' (for clay or pot) seems 
correct (the word list is to be found here: 
http://www.angelfire.com/az2/catawba/c.html).
I'm not sure whether or not SLL is maybe speculating on the similarity 
of sound to a Chinese compound word *e4 tu3 堊土 (UTF-8) which could be 
broken down as 'chalk-earth'.

Alfred
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From BARudes at aol.com  Thu Jul 20 16:09:11 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:09:11 EDT
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.120911.EDT.>

The on-line dictionary of Catawba is wrong. The words for 'clay' and 'pot' in 
Catawba are not the same. The word for a 'bowl, dish, pot' is at'us in the 
Saraw dialect of Catawba and it'us in the Esaw dialect. The word for 'clay' is 
'iNtu: with a stressed nasal-i in the first syllable and a long-u in the 
second. The specific word for a 'clay for making pots' is a compound of the word for 
'clay' and the word for 'bowl, dish, pot': iNt'u:tus. It is worth noting, 
however, that in the Woccon language, another Catawban language, the word <Intom> 
is glossed as 'pipe'. <Intom> appears to be cognate with Catawba 'iNtu: 
'clay'.

Blair
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 17:11:51 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:11:51 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <415.648f920.31f104a7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.191151.0200.>

Thanks a lot, Blair!

Alfred

Am 20.07.2006 um 18:09 schrieb BARudes at aol.com:

> The on-line dictionary of Catawba is wrong. The words for 'clay' and 
> 'pot' in Catawba are not the same. The word for a 'bowl, dish, pot' is 
> at'us in the Saraw dialect of Catawba and it'us in the Esaw dialect. 
> The word for 'clay' is 'iNtu: with a stressed nasal-i in the first 
> syllable and a long-u in the second. The specific word for a 'clay for 
> making pots' is a compound of the word for 'clay' and the word for 
> 'bowl, dish, pot': iNt'u:tus. It is worth noting, however, that in the 
> Woccon language, another Catawban language, the word <Intom> is 
> glossed as 'pipe'. <Intom> appears to be cognate with Catawba 'iNtu: 
> 'clay'.
>
>  Blair
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jul 21 19:12:33 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:12:33 -0500
Subject: Attn Siouanists in the Midwest.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUL.2006.141233.0500.>

Mid America Linguistics Conference call for papers.  
 
From: owner-LING-L at listproc.cc.ku.edu on behalf of Gabriele, Alison
Sent: Fri 7/21/2006 6:38 AM
To: Gabriele, Alison; LING-L
Subject: Mid-American Linguistics Conference (MALC) 2006

> The Mid-American Linguistics Conference (MALC) has been revived. It is being held this year at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville at the end of October. Abstracts are due on August 21st.  There will be a special forum dedicated to graduate students. I've pasted the full Linguist List posting below.

Alison

Message 2: Mid-American Linguistics Conference
Date: 17-Jul-2006
From: Douglas Simms <dsimmssiue.edu>
Subject: Mid-American Linguistics Conference

Full Title: Mid-American Linguistics Conference
Short Title: MALC

Date: 27-Oct-2006 - 28-Oct-2006
Location: Edwardsville, IL, USA
Contact Person: Larry Lafond
Meeting Email: llafondsiue.edu

Linguistic Field(s): General Linguistics

Call Deadline: 21-Aug-2006

Meeting Description:

October 27-28, 2006
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville invite submission of abstracts for the
2006 Mid-America Linguistics Conference.

We will continue the tradition of accepting papers on all linguistic topics.
Linguists in all areas of specialization are encouraged to submit abstracts.
This year's meeting will feature special interest sessions on Language
Acquisition and Morpho-Syntax. There will also be a forum dedicated to graduate
students.

Plenary Speaker: Silvina Montrul, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

Location:
The conference will be in Morris University Center on the campus of Southern
Illinois University Edwardsville. Edwardsville is located at the junctions of
I-270 and Illinois state highway 157 about 25 miles east of downtown St. Louis, MO.

Guidelines for Submissions of Papers:
Contributed papers will be allowed a maximum of 20 minutes for presentation.
Published proceedings of the conference will be available if there is sufficient
demand; ordering information will be provided in September. Instructions for the
preparation of manuscripts will be sent along with notification of acceptance.

Please submit one-page abstracts no later than August 21, 2006.

Submissions must be by e-mail as a PDF attachment. Submissions may also be faxed
(618-650-3509) to either: Larry LaFond, llafondsiue.edu or Seran Aktuna,
saktunasiue.edu.

Requests for additional information about program content may be sent to:
Ron Schaefer, Department of English, SIUE, Edwardsville, IL 62026-1431
Telephone: (618) 650-2060; or E-mail: rschaefsiue.edu.
For registration information contact: Conferences and Institutes at (618) 650-2660.

Audio-visual equipment will be available as required and requested.


From dispencer at charter.net  Fri Jul 21 22:33:28 2006
From: dispencer at charter.net (Darla Spencer)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:33:28 -0400
Subject: Siouans in the Kanawha Valley, WV
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUL.2006.183328.0400.>

Hello. I am new to the list but have been able to access the archives and I
am very interested in some of the past threads about the Monetons or the
Tomahittans that were in the Kanawha Valley in the seventeenth century. It's
pretty certain that the Monetons were Siouan but the identity of the
Tomahittans is more of a mystery. I have heard Yuchi and even Cherokee. From
what I have read, the Yuchi were thought to have been Siouan speakers, but
now I've heard them described as a linguistic isolate. What is the current
thinking in the linguistic community?    I'm also interested in the Dhegiha
Sioux and their relationship with the Ohio and possibly Kanawha Valleys. Can
anyone point me in the right direction to find out about the early Siouans
in the Ohio Valley and the split between the eastern and western? 

 

Darla Spencer, RPA

689 Gordon Drive

Charleston, WV  25314

(304) 343-9661

dispencer at charter.net

 

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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Mon Jul 31 19:03:58 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 14:03:58 -0500
Subject: Fw: Fw: language
Message-ID: <MON.31.JUL.2006.140358.0500.>


----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: language


Hi Jimm

The following notice appeared in my Arts and Sciences bulletin from OU. You may have already heard about it. It seems they are a bit late in doing this, but perhaps there will be some good come from it.

New Master's Degree May Save Native Languages

The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education recently approved OU's request to offer a master's degree in applied linguistic anthropology. The program, expected to be available in the fall of 2007, will give students the opportunity to research endangered languages and understand the importance of keeping them alive. 

"This program will train a new generation of scholars to continue the documentation of these languages, especially native languages in our own backyard," Chancellor Paul G. Risser said. "Oklahoma's American Indian heritage is a state treasure and we must do whatever we can to preserve it." 

OU is the first university in the state to offer such a program. Currently, students in the college also can learn Cherokee, Cheyenne, Choctaw, Creek and Kiowa. According to Morris Foster, acting chair of the Department of Anthropology, a total of 462 students enrolled in these native languages during the 2005-2006 academic year. 

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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  1 00:18:18 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:18:18 -0700
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <79B76C45-BDA5-4246-84BD-3638B74EBDEC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2006.171818.0700.>

Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a great deal.
  Jonathan

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/ech?Nni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/an?yaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)  ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )]; "sece" =>/s?ce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham, 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these Enclitic
 Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood & Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17 ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C. Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by nature of immediately following word, or under certain other conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too much, or too little! :-)
 BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. 
    On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

  If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what this sentence means? 

Ecanni anayapsakte sece. 


                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































 		
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business. 
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul  1 00:32:39 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 10:32:39 +1000
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <20060701001818.38784.qmail@web54506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.103239.1000.>

You are most welcome. However, please note that my citation of the  
title of the Smithsonian Inst. multi-volume "Handbook" should have  
read "Handbook of North American INDIANS". Sorry about that! :)  
Clive. P.S. May I inquire what is your own area of specialization &  
expertise?
On 01/07/2006, at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

> Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a  
> great deal.
> Jonathan
>
> Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you :  
> It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU  
> (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will  
> transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between  
> Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to  
> reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks  
> stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/ech?Nni/, Adverb, meaning "soon;  
> early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/an?yaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS.,  
> meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which  
> had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)   
> ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal  
> Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )];  
> "sece" =>/s?ce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham,  
> 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or  
> Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these  
> Enclitic Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort  
> of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section  
> 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood &  
> Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17  
> ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American  
> Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C.  
> Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short  
> "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as  
> Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel  
> which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by  
> nature of immediately following word, or under certain other  
> conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and  
> "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully  
> understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of  
> some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too  
> much, or too little! :-) BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical  
> conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some.  
> Regards, Clive Bloomfield.
> On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
>
>> If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what  
>> this sentence means?
>>
>> Ecanni anayapsakte sece.
>>
>>
>> Be a friend...
>> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
>> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>>
>>
>> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
>
>
>
>
> Be a friend...
> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
> go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>
>
> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

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From okibjonathan at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  1 04:17:52 2006
From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:17:52 -0700
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <C8A3A0A5-4484-487A-82B1-71C9BE2CB52F@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUN.2006.211752.0700.>

I have a background in Cultural Anthropology and Ethnohistory.

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:  You are most welcome. However, please note that my citation of the title of the Smithsonian Inst. multi-volume "Handbook" should have read "Handbook of North American INDIANS". Sorry about that! :) Clive. P.S. May I inquire what is your own area of specialization & expertise? 
    On 01/07/2006, at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

    Thank you for taking the time to explain so precisely. It helped a great deal.
  Jonathan

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."      I will transcribe and gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ "ecanni"=>/ech?Nni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";   ["anayapsa kte" =>/an?yaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been suppressed"  Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.)  ("kte" [a form of "ktA" -See below]) : Future/Intentional Modal Enclitic Suffix. Here, in effect, marking "future tense". )]; "sece" =>/s?ce/ (a form of "secA") : Another "Epistemic" (Ingham, 2003, 4.7.1.) Modal Encl. Suff. denoting Possibility and/or Probability. Should further explication of force/operation of these Enclitic
 Suffixes be needed, (in word-order they conform to a sort of "order-of-precedence hierarchy"), see : Ingham (ibid. Section 4.7, pp.28-33)); also Section 10 (pp. 473-476) of David S. Rood & Alan R. Taylor's "Sketch of Lakhota, a Siouan Language", in Vol. 17 ("Languages" :Ives Goddard [ed.]) of "Handbook of North American Languages", Washington : Smithsonian Institution,( Wm. C. Sturtevant, [ed.])  (1996) : pp. 440-482.       Finally, a short "Key" to Net-Siouan Transcr. above : /N/ marks preceeding vowel as Nasalised; /s^/=Engl."sh-" as in "shop"; /A/ denotes a final vowel which is subject to certain changes ("ABLAUT"), conditioned by nature of immediately following word, or under certain other conditions, such as being "clause-final" : here, both "kta" and "seca" suffer this change from "a" to "e". (N.B. : to fully understand this, you would have to learn Lakhota!) Hope this is of some assistance to you Jonathan. Perhaps I have either assumed too much, or too little! :-)
 BTW, Net-Siouan is a set of orthographical conventions devised for writing Lakhota on the "Net", used by some. Regards, Clive Bloomfield. 
    On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:

  If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what this sentence means? 

Ecanni anayapsakte sece. 


                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




                                                              Be a friend...
  Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
  go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
   






























  

  
---------------------------------
  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.




Be a friend...
Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
go to:   http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
 































 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Jul  1 09:26:58 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:26:58 +0200
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <79B76C45-BDA5-4246-84BD-3638B74EBDEC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.112658.0200.>

Clive,
I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not 
[ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning: 
[ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water

What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is 
called...)


Alfred


Am 01.07.2006 um 00:54 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Jonathan, I believe I can translate your sentence for you : It 
> IS certainly Lakota, and one translation might be : "SOON YOU (sg.) 
> WILL/MAY BURST INTO LAUGHTER, PERHAPS."? ?? ?I will transcribe and 
> gloss, first in traditional spelling, then, between Right Slash Marks, 
> into so-called "Net-Siouan" format, in order to reflect pronunciation 
> less approximately. NB : Acute accent marks stressed syllable. [ 
> "ecanni"=>/ech?Nni/, Adverb, meaning "soon; early";? ?["anayapsa kte" 
> =>/an?yaps^a (kte)/, Finite VERB, 2pS., meaning : "You (Sg.) 
> (will/shall) break/burst into laughter ("which had previously been 
> suppressed" ?Buechel/Manhart, 2002, s.v.) ?(...)

> On 01/07/2006, at 1:45 AM, Jonathan Holmes wrote:
>
>> If this is Lakota, as it appears it may be, would anyone know what 
>> this sentence means?
>>
>> Ecanni anayapsakte sece.
>>
>>
>> Be a friend...
>> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge,
>> go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org
>> ?
>>
>> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul  1 18:18:49 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 04:18:49 +1000
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <a2919b7620b71b60bd9a4a6572e9df9b@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.041849.1000.>

Hello Alfred, Perhaps we have different editions of Buechel-Manhart :  
Mine is the 2002 Ed. , and on Page 20, (mid-page; LH column) has :  
"anapsa /an?ps^a/ (va) : to break into a laugh after it has been  
suppressed -- anaps^aps^a (vn redup) : to bubble or boil up, as  
bubbles on foul water when disturbed." I wonder if any of the experts  
here might have any further info. on this verb? Tanyan awanic'iglakin  
kta wachin, toks^a akhe, Clive.   P.S. : I wish someone would do a  
Ph.D. level study of the Lakhota style of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's  
Lakhota novella : "S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He" [The Bringer of  
the Mystery Dog]. The sheer beauty & graceful sweep of his  
"cinematic" sentences continues to amaze & delight me. As a  
translator, IMVHO, he leaves Anne Nolan Clark's charming but slight  
children's tale far behind him, and creates an original work of art!
On 01/07/2006, at 7:26 PM, A.W. T?ting wrote:

> Clive,
> I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not  
> [ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning:  
> [ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water
>
> What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is  
> called...)
>
>
> Alfred
>
>
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sat Jul  1 18:59:03 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 20:59:03 +0200
Subject: Lakota short sentence? ["mini"-Lakhota course!]
In-Reply-To: <EF477EBF-406D-43BE-8794-F3CB51F0C4DE@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.JUL.2006.205903.0200.>

Hello Clive,

I checked my paper copy of Buechel-Manhart (2002) and it's like quoted 
by you. There seems to be a typo in the source I'd looked it up first.

I'd support your 'wish' regarding Sunka wan wakan agli k'un he. Never 
encountered such a 'European- style' Lakota text written by a native 
speaker. Great!

T.a.

Alfred

Am 01.07.2006 um 20:18 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Alfred, Perhaps we have different editions of Buechel-Manhart : 
> Mine is the 2002 Ed. , and on Page 20, (mid-page; LH column) has : 
> "anapsa /an?ps^a/ (va) : to break into a laugh after it has been 
> suppressed -- anaps^aps^a (vn redup) : to bubble or boil up, as 
> bubbles on foul water when disturbed." I wonder if any of the experts 
> here might have any further info. on this verb? Tanyan awanic'iglakin 
> kta wachin, toks^a akhe, Clive.? ?P.S. : I wish someone would do a 
> Ph.D. level study of the Lakhota style of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's 
> Lakhota novella : "S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He" [The Bringer of the 
> Mystery Dog]. The sheer beauty & graceful sweep of his "cinematic" 
> sentences continues to amaze & delight me. As a translator, IMVHO, he 
> leaves Anne Nolan Clark's charming but slight children's tale far 
> behind him, and creates an original work of art!
> On 01/07/2006, at 7:26 PM, A.W. T?ting wrote:
>
>> Clive,
>> I share your translation, but shouldn't it be anapsa [ana'psa] not 
>> [ana'ps^a], although there's a verb with a similar meaning: 
>> [ana'ps^aps^a] - boil up, come up, as bubbles on the water
>>
>> What do you think of the change s -> s^ (don't recall how this is 
>> called...)
>>
>>
>> Alfred
>>
>>
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 08:45:32 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:45:32 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <e219b466521035d50e398f0ca7b5f5a8@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.184532.1000.>

Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 'European- 
style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary FORM  
(novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back in  
the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me the  
only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman alphabet) :  the  
grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences, his  
"Weltanschaung" (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota", being in my  
view completely unlike the grammatical/thought structure of any  
European language of which I am aware, even of non-Indo-European ones  
like Finnish, Estonian, Turkish. Hungarian, or even Basque. (I am not  
putting myself forth as an expert in any of those languages, but I  
know enough about  the way they "work".) And yet neither does it  
resemble the structure of the language as it is used in the Deloria  
or Bushotter Tales. IMHO, it would seem to have more in common with  
the modern Lakhota style of Ivan Starr's 'Lakota Eyapaha". I would  
love to know more about Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk, wouldn't you? Who was he  
raised by? Who were his parents & grandparents? Any storytellers in  
the family? How traditional a background did he come from? What  
education had he acquired? What books, if any, had he read? Does the  
first name "Emil" perhaps indicate some European strain, not "full- 
blood" : French/German/Swiss/Belgian? All I have been able to  
ascertain so far is that he was an Oglala, an assistant at a trading  
post on Rez. (Pine Ridge, I think) in the 1920's & '30's, who was  
apparently remembered with much affection, a Catholic "catechist &  
prayer-leader" in 1930-31, and an interpreter who was engaged 1) by  
the famous John Neihardt in the course of interviewing Nicholas Black  
Elk in '30/'31; 2) Employed as one of 5 interpreters by Eleanor  
Hinman & Mari Sandoz in their work in the same years with Oglala  
informants on Crazy Horse. 3) Engaged as Lakhota interpreter for a  
number of bilingual children's books by the B.I.A. teacher & author  
Ann Nolan Clark, published by the Bureau in the '40's. IF I am right  
about his use of Lakhota, he is a distinguished author & artist,  
whose stature awaits due recognition! If I am wrong, I would like to  
have it demonstrated, by a Lakhota scholar, or other informed source.  
In fact, I would love to analyse/discuss the grammar & syntax of some  
of his sentences with any scholars here who might be interested. :)  
Here is a link to the book, with interlinear translation(s)  
available :  http://lol.iyapi.net/bomd.php  Best regards, Clive  
Bloomfield.
On 02/07/2006, at 4:59 AM, A.W. T?ting wrote:

> Hello Clive,
>
> I checked my paper copy of Buechel-Manhart (2002) and it's like  
> quoted by you. There seems to be a typo in the source I'd looked it  
> up first.
>
> I'd support your 'wish' regarding Sunka wan wakan agli k'un he.  
> Never encountered such a 'European- style' Lakota text written by a  
> native speaker. Great!
>
> T.a.
>
> Alfred
>
>>>
>>>

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul  2 10:15:25 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:15:25 +0200
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <C0D3A65E-3F27-4447-9841-69C2E9BA7026@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.121525.0200.>

Clive chiye,

I was well aware of 'stirring up your contradiction' by using this 
short term of 'European-style' ;-) which actually doesn't cover exactly 
what I wanted to express with it. The text is best Lakota in structure 
and syntax - but, IMVHO, it's the quite sophisticated ('epic') way of 
displaying the narration (as you call it yourself: 'cinematic'!) that 
to me seems like having its roots in the Old World, so to speak 
('European-style' is too narrow a term for it and doesn't really 
express what I mean). Okay, that's only my very personal feeling and 
perception :)

T. a.

Alfred

P.S. I wouldn't have expected a narrative style like this in a Native 
American language as I e.g. hadn't  in 'classical' Chinese.


Am 02.07.2006 um 10:45 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 
> 'European-style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary 
> FORM (novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back 
> in the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me the 
> only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman alphabet) :? the 
> grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences, his "Weltanschaung" 
> (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota", being in my view completely 
> unlike the grammatical/thought structure of any European language of 
> which I am aware, (...)


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 13:07:08 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 23:07:08 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <58e5f28e718010eb4d069ae3e0792ae6@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.230708.1000.>

Dear Alfred chiye na khola, You may well be right - I think I am  
getting an inkling of what you are alluding to there. The use of  
language itself, the Lakhota structures employed seem to me such a  
highly sophisticated, "virtuoso" performance in the language, as it  
were, by someone who understands Lakhota at such a profound "gut"  
level, that one feels it could only emanate from the pen of a native,  
(& we even have his name), and yet ..... there does seem to be a  
certain dissonance between the cultural context & background of a  
Lakhota native speaker of the 1940's, and the "mental world" of that  
text. One realizes he is translating a European text, but that seems,  
to me at any rate, quite inadequate to account for what I am  
convinced is the disparity of "calibre" & quality between the  
Original (which IS worthy, but fairly banal & unpretentious) & the  
Version (which belongs in a different literary class altogether, in  
my view.) It is really quite an enigma to me. He must have had a  
marvellously original mind, I fancy! Being a pretty useful  
interpreter, by all accounts, he must have had more than a little  
linguistic insight, (not to mention talent.) But sometimes as we all  
know, brilliance can seem sometimes, inexplicably, to emerge from  
"nowhere" - this world is "passing strange" at times, is it not?.  
Perhaps I AM overstating my case, but it is a pretty difficult one to  
substantiate without something like a statistical (word/phrase/ 
construction-frequency-based) stylistic analysis of the entire text,  
and a detailed comparison of it with other modern Lakhota prose  
compositions. That class of text does not exactly seem to be a huge  
field though, does it? Until I know better, I will continue studying  
& learning from Mr. Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's beautiful, layered  
sentences with excited fascination! It's a bit like trying to "prove"  
that an impressionist painting (say), or a violin partita is a  
masterpiece : One either "feels" it, or don't bother! Enthusiasm is  
great, but I would like to be able to back up intuitions with hard  
facts!        Toksha akhe wanunkichiyankin kte lo, Clive.
On 02/07/2006, at 8:15 PM, A.W. T?ting wrote:

> Clive chiye,
>
> I was well aware of 'stirring up your contradiction' by using this  
> short term of 'European-style' ;-) which actually doesn't cover  
> exactly what I wanted to express with it. The text is best Lakota  
> in structure and syntax - but, IMVHO, it's the quite sophisticated  
> ('epic') way of displaying the narration (as you call it yourself:  
> 'cinematic'!) that to me seems like having its roots in the Old  
> World, so to speak ('European-style' is too narrow a term for it  
> and doesn't really express what I mean). Okay, that's only my very  
> personal feeling and perception :)
>
> T. a.
>
> Alfred
>
> P.S. I wouldn't have expected a narrative style like this in a  
> Native American language as I e.g. hadn't  in 'classical' Chinese.
>
>
> Am 02.07.2006 um 10:45 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:
>
>> Hello Alfred & friends, If you mean the Lakota text is 'European- 
>> style' in the sense that it was a work of European literary FORM  
>> (novel/novella), which Emil Afraid-of-hawk was "translating" back  
>> in the 1940's, then I totally agree with you. But that seems to me  
>> the only European thing about it, (apart from the Roman  
>> alphabet) :  the grammatical structure & syntax of his sentences,  
>> his "Weltanschauung" (if you like) seem,IMHO, "echt-Lakhota",  
>> being in my view completely unlike the grammatical/thought  
>> structure of any European language of which I am aware, (...)


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jul  2 13:31:44 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:31:44 -0500
Subject: Dictionary Database
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.083144.0500.>

Does any one on the list here know anything about the Indiana Dictionary
Database (IDD) found at:
http://www.indiana.edu/~aisri/software/index.shtml

>>From their website:

A multimedia dictionary database program that has been created specifically
for compiling dictionaries of American Indian languages. The program, now in
its final stages of development, is designed to support standard textual
linguistic material as well as sound data, graphical images, and video
clips.

Specifically, we're trying to figure out how one could incorporate such a
program into a website. Any web-wizards out there? Have any students that
are web-wizards?

Is anyone using a dictionary database that has audio capabilities and can be
used on a website? Any recommendations?


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sun Jul  2 14:33:26 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:33:26 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.093326.0500.>

I am not familiar with the text to which you are referring but I'd like to
suggest that "the cultural context & background of a Lakhota native speaker
of the 1940's, and (their) 'mental world' " might be a whole lot different
than we might think. By the 1940's many Indian people, many of whom were
fluent speakers of their own languages, had exposure to European texts and
were voracious readers.

I once attended an Otoe wake service where an old man (I believe it was
Truman Dailey, if  I remember correctly) arose to give a speech. During his
speech the old man repeated John Donne's famous Meditation XVII ("No man is
an island, entire of itself......and therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls. It tolls for thee") nearly word-for-word, the entire verse
from memory. The only difference was he didn't say "Europe is the less"; he
said "our land" instead of  "Europe". Even more remarkable, he then repeated
it in Otoe (!), all without a script or prompt.

I asked a few Ponca elders that I was sitting with about their reaction to
his speech. Their reaction was something like "Oh! Did that come out of a
book? You know that guy spends a lot of time reading. He went to the
university. It sure was pretty though." I asked about the Otoe translation
and they said "He just repeated himself - said the same thing - sure was
pretty." It was, without question, one of the more remarkable and moving
speeches I've ever heard.


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 15:14:56 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 01:14:56 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c69de4$7af32fe0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.011456.1000.>

Hello Tom, You're quite right, of course. One should make no  
assumptions, about the "mental world" of other people, especially  
across cultures. Apologies to any Native American people here for  
perhaps sounding patronising, or dismissive. I could have put it a  
whole lot better. Indeed, maybe Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk was just such a  
highly educated man, of great literary sophistication, as was that  
wonderful Donne-quoting Otoe gentleman you mention. That must have  
been really something!  My point was to suggest that Emil Afraid-Of- 
Hawk was a remarkable writer, & in that sense, not average - and that  
his TEXT is an extraordinary use of Lakota, and perhaps reflects a  
person with an out of the ordinary mind & background. Mea culpa. Clive.
On 03/07/2006, at 12:33 AM, Tom Leonard wrote:

> I am not familiar with the text to which you are referring but I'd  
> like to
> suggest that "the cultural context & background of a Lakhota native  
> speaker
> of the 1940's, and (their) 'mental world' " might be a whole lot  
> different
> than we might think. By the 1940's many Indian people, many of whom  
> were
> fluent speakers of their own languages, had exposure to European  
> texts and
> were voracious readers.
>
> I once attended an Otoe wake service where an old man (I believe it  
> was
> Truman Dailey, if  I remember correctly) arose to give a speech.  
> During his
> speech the old man repeated John Donne's famous Meditation XVII  
> ("No man is
> an island, entire of itself......and therefore never send to know  
> for whom
> the bell tolls. It tolls for thee") nearly word-for-word, the  
> entire verse
> from memory. The only difference was he didn't say "Europe is the  
> less"; he
> said "our land" instead of  "Europe". Even more remarkable, he then  
> repeated
> it in Otoe (!), all without a script or prompt.
>
> I asked a few Ponca elders that I was sitting with about their  
> reaction to
> his speech. Their reaction was something like "Oh! Did that come  
> out of a
> book? You know that guy spends a lot of time reading. He went to the
> university. It sure was pretty though." I asked about the Otoe  
> translation
> and they said "He just repeated himself - said the same thing -  
> sure was
> pretty." It was, without question, one of the more remarkable and  
> moving
> speeches I've ever heard.


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Sun Jul  2 17:15:29 2006
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:15:29 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <C0D3A65E-3F27-4447-9841-69C2E9BA7026@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUL.2006.121529.0500.>

It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are 
talking about:

Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
Indian Life Readers
Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk

Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
There still are Buffalo (1942)
all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post (1944)

I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version of 
Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not too easy 
to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.

Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty 
complex text.

It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In the 
material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says this:  
Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the older 
generation, translated this series of books.  But there is more than a 
page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing Soldier.  In 
those days, the artist was more important than the translator, it 
seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with children's books in 
general.

Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 23:09:15 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:09:15 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.090915.1000.>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 3 July 2006 8:21:40 AM
> To: rwd0002 at unt.edu
> Subject: Re: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
>
> Hello again Willem & mitakuyepi, Mr.Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk gets a  
> brief mention here : 1) http://www.rootsweb.com/~sdshanno/ 
> george_malone.htm 2) and in Section 3. of this Italian-language  
> website about Black Elk ("Alce Nero") http:// 
> www.alleanzacattolica.org/indici/articoli/introvignem237_238.htm  I  
> did not know who George Malone was, but one gathers he was a  
> storekeeper at Porcupine circa. 1919, reminiscing in 1971. Regards,  
> Clive.
> On 03/07/2006, at 3:15 AM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:
>
>> It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are  
>> talking about:
>>
>> Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
>> Indian Life Readers
>> Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk
>>
>> Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
>> Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
>> The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
>> The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
>> The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
>> The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
>> There still are Buffalo (1942)
>> all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
>> Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
>> Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post  
>> (1944)
>>
>> I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version  
>> of Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not  
>> too easy to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.
>>
>> Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty  
>> complex text.
>>
>> It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In  
>> the material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says  
>> this:  Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the  
>> older generation, translated this series of books.  But there is  
>> more than a page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing  
>> Soldier.  In those days, the artist was more important than the  
>> translator, it seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with  
>> children's books in general.
>>
>> Willem
>

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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jul  2 23:08:36 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:08:36 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.090836.1000.>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 3 July 2006 8:06:01 AM
> To: rwd0002 at unt.edu
> Subject: Re: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
>
> Hello Willem, Thank you for your reply. The book in question was  
> "Bringer of the Mystery Dog" (S^unka Wan Wakhan Agli K'un He).1944.  
> (Indian Life Readers, Sioux Series, 6.) Lawrence Kansas, : Haskell  
> Institute, U.S. indian Service, Education Division,) Here are some  
> links, first to the text (with interlinear multilingual  
> translation, & in various Lakhota orthographies) :           1)  
> http://lol.iyapi.net/bomd.php    , and then to "A Libris.com"  
> listing various copies of the book, mentioning Ann Nolan Clark, and  
> the Illustrator Oscar Howe, but not a "peep" (as far as one can  
> see) about the distinguished Lakhota translator Emil Afraid-Of- 
> Hawk! :                                                                
>                                                                        
>                                                                      
> 2)  http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=810378&wauth=ann% 
> 20nolan% 
> 20clark&matches=3&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title                    
>                                                                     
> As a matter of fact, I first obtained his name from one of your  
> Bibliographies : "100 Years of Lakota Linguistics (1887-1997)  
> (1988) - for which I am very obligedl to you! I have also profited  
> greatly from your paper on Noun-incorporation, and your 1983 MA  
> thesis on the Syntax of the Lakhota Noun-Phrase. Hena un lila  
> philamayaye lo! I like to see credit given where it is due, and I  
> believe it is long, long overdue for Mr. Afraid-Of-Hawk. Toksha  
> akhe, Clive Bloomfield from Melbourne, Australia.  P.S. Have you  
> ever considered publishing your 1984 paper on Relative clauses in  
> Lakota? I'd love to read it.
> On 03/07/2006, at 3:15 AM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:
>
>> It might help us Siouanists to mention which Lakota books we are  
>> talking about:
>>
>> Publications of the Branch of Education, US BIA
>> Indian Life Readers
>> Sioux Series by Ann Clark, Sioux Text by Emil Afraid of Hawk
>>
>> Sioux Cowboy (Primer) (1945)
>> Singing Sioux Cowboy (Reader) (1947)
>> The Pine Ridge Porcupine (1941)
>> The Slim Butte Raccoon (1942)
>> The Grass Mountain Mouse (1943)
>> The Hen at Wahpeton (1943)
>> There still are Buffalo (1942)
>> all illustrated by Andrew Standing Soldier
>> Bringer of the Mystery Dog, illustrated by Oscar Howe (1944)
>> Brave Against the Enemy, photographic illustrations by Helen Post  
>> (1944)
>>
>> I own a copy of the Hen of wahpeton, and an English only version  
>> of Brave against the Enemy, probably 1963. These things are not  
>> too easy to find in used bookstores, and pricy when they are.
>>
>> Brave Against the Enemy is a small novel, the only one with pretty  
>> complex text.
>>
>> It is good that Emil Afraid of Hawk is being discussed here, In  
>> the material at the back of the books Willard W. Beatty just says  
>> this:  Emil Afraid of Hawk, an experienced interpreter of the  
>> older generation, translated this series of books.  But there is  
>> more than a page of information about the Artist, Andrew Standing  
>> Soldier.  In those days, the artist was more important than the  
>> translator, it seems.  Of course, that tends to be the case with  
>> children's books in general.
>>
>> Willem
>

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul  3 09:12:24 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:12:24 +0200
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <0F583786-20C9-467D-BDE5-E5D694B21FCC@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.111224.0200.>

Clive,

with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr. Emil  
Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are in  
English only, aren't they?
(Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta Yo!",  
which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I for one had  
liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my interest in this  
powerful language.)

"No man is an island, entire of itself;..." is a wonderful and  
venerable old text of deepest truth, expressing ideas very familiar to  
Native American people - e.g. Mitakuye oyas'in (but also to Far Eastern  
philosophy, e.g. "Pick up a blade of grass and all the worlds will come  
along with it!"
http://www.fa-kuan.de/PREFACE.HTML, http://www.fa-kuan.de/VORWORT.HTML)

I'm most grateful for Tom mentioning this text, that, IMHO, could as  
well have been composed in, say, Lakota originally.
Clive misun, maybe this example can help me explain what I actually  
wanted to say with my (ill-fitting) term of 'European-style' which  
wasn't in any case meant derogatory with regard to Native people.  
IMVHO, Lakota unfolds its genuine power in sermon/speech-like texts  
like these rather than in epic narration - always reminding me of  
Ancient Greek, Latin etc., the latter having profoundly shaped e.g.  
German (but even Hungarian!) syntax in the sense of abominable  
'Schachtelsatzbildung', a feature since long left behind in English.
Also remember the famous and powerful speech "I have a dream..." which  
could be appropriately given in Lakota as well. (Cf. Lojban .i mi  
pacna... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban).

Toksa ake

Alfred le miye lo


Alfred

Am 03.07.2006 um 01:08 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:

> (...) and then to "A Libris.com" listing various copies of the book,  
> mentioning Ann Nolan Clark, and the Illustrator Oscar Howe, but not a  
> "peep" (as far as one can see) about the distinguished Lakhota  
> translator Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk! : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2)?  
> http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm? 
> qwork=810378&wauth=ann%20nolan%20clark&matches=3&qsort=r&cm_re=works*li 
> sting*title?
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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jul  3 10:09:59 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 20:09:59 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.200959.1000.>

"Sorry 'bout that, chief!" (Maxwell Smart. c.1967 :-) ) Here's a  
better addy with locations of copies of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's books  
held in U.S., and other libraries. Interlibrary loan? Clive.
On 03/07/2006, at 7:12 PM, A.W. T?ting wrote:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
> Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are  
> in English only, aren't they?
> (Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
> interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta  
> Yo!", which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I  
> for one had liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my  
> interest in this powerful language.)
>
>
> Toksa ake
>
> Alfred le miye lo
>
>
> Alfred
>
>

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From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jul  3 12:32:20 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 22:32:20 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.223220.1000.>

Oops again!  Try this  
one :                                                                    
                                                             http:// 
www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ 
search;jsessionid=4CF8A4C7DED9CF2E3E97368B20E9C8B3.one?q=au%3AEmil+au% 
3AAfraid-of-Hawk&qt=hot_author
On 03/07/2006, at 7:12 PM, A.W. T?ting wrote:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
> Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are  
> in English only, aren't they?
> (Ruth Beebe Hill's copy might be of interest, though. BTW, I'd be  
> interested to learn the scholars opinion on Hill's work "Hanta  
> Yo!", which appears to be 'put on the index' by Native people. I  
> for one had liked it a lot, many (30?)  years back, re-kindling my  
> interest in this powerful language.)
>
>
> Alfred
>
> Am 03.07.2006 um 01:08 schrieb Clive Bloomfield:
>

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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  3 16:06:32 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: 1877 Lord's Prayer - Osage
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUL.2006.110632.0500.CQCQCQ1@EARTHLINK.NET>

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From linguista at gmail.com  Wed Jul  5 04:03:36 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:03:36 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUL.2006.230336.0500.>

I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is:

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or
not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
"to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is it
actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through Dorsey
but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights!

- Bryan Gordon
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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul  5 15:22:18 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:22:18 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.102218.0500.>

Gaaghe 'make' has taken on the role of a secondary causative in most if not all Dhegiha dialects.  It does not have the 'by striking' prefix -- that was simply a mistake on Hahn's part.  Wachi 'dance' has an aspirated /ch/.  I suppose one could tell from examining Dorsey (1890) whether this usage was common 120 yrs. ago or whether it might be a feature of language endangerment.  
 
Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon
Sent: Tue 7/4/2006 11:03 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: OP dancing


I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner; I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is: 

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe" "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe - thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai. 

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights! 

- Bryan Gordon


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 15:45:06 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:45:06 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607042103w210b5adoddf11264036013b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.104506.0500.>

Hi Bryan,

I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
not conjugate at all.  The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb.  So
apparently they added -gaghe at the end to soften it and make it clear that
they were talking about dancing, and not some other social activity.  I
doubt that you could say "wac^Hi'ppaghe", as this could too easily be
misinterpreted in the way you are trying to avoid.  To say 'I dance', you
might have to resort to something awful like "wac^Hi'gaghe ppa'ghe".

Rory




                                                                           
             "Bryan Gordon"                                                
             <linguista at gmail.                                             
             com>                                                       To 
             Sent by:                  siouan at lists.colorado.edu           
             owner-siouan at list                                          cc 
             s.colorado.edu                                                
                                                                   Subject 
                                       OP dancing                          
             07/04/2006 11:03                                              
             PM                                                            
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             siouan at lists.colo                                             
                 rado.edu                                                  
                                                                           
                                                                           




I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
doubt many of you have encountered before.

One thing which has just struck me is:

The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated or
not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
"to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is
it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through
Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.

Thanks for your insights!

- Bryan Gordon


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 16:00:33 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:00:33 -0500
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A2F@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.110033.0500.>

Bob wrote:
> Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its
initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or
do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)

??  In OP, we have gi- for the 'dative' form:

  gia'ghe 'make or do for someone'
    iNga'ghe '...     for me'
    ria'ghe  '...     for you'

How does dative OP gi- relate to dative Kaw kki-  ?


Rory


From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 16:40:12 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:40:12 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.114012.0500.>

I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

In my experience this verb goes both ways - some times it's treated as a
unit and other times you'll hear it conjugated (example: wac^hi pa'xe tah
miN'ke - I'm going to dance). You'll also hear things like "wac^Hi ga'xe ama
agu di a?" - where are they dancing?". We also hear the verb "noN'te" for
"dance", as in "noN'te wa'the" or  "aN'noNte aNga'ti" - we are here dancing.
Apologies for the poor phonetics.

The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? Never heard
it said that way before; that's marvelous! And, it's also true. However,
it's more likely to take the form "wa'tsi", sounding very much like the
Osage word for "dance" - a favorite old tease between the Osage and Ponca.
Jim Duncan used to ALWAYS get in trouble when he'd visit Ponca Powwow and
say "awa'tsi kom'bra" - my aunt would teasingly slap him and say
"hey.....behave yourself around here". Then they'd all bust out laughing.

Depending upon the context, sometimes it's just safer to use "noN'te".


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rory M Larson" <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: OP dancing


> Hi Bryan,
>
> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb.  So
> apparently they added -gaghe at the end to soften it and make it clear
that
> they were talking about dancing, and not some other social activity.  I
> doubt that you could say "wac^Hi'ppaghe", as this could too easily be
> misinterpreted in the way you are trying to avoid.  To say 'I dance', you
> might have to resort to something awful like "wac^Hi'gaghe ppa'ghe".
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>              "Bryan Gordon"
>              <linguista at gmail.
>              com>                                                       To
>              Sent by:                  siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>              owner-siouan at list                                          cc
>              s.colorado.edu
>                                                                    Subject
>                                        OP dancing
>              07/04/2006 11:03
>              PM
>
>
>              Please respond to
>              siouan at lists.colo
>                  rado.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
> I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
> doubt many of you have encountered before.
>
> One thing which has just struck me is:
>
> The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated
or
> not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make." Makes
> sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
> conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course, "gaghe"
> "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get *aaghe -
> thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead of course we
> get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.
>
> So the question is, does "waci gaghe" actually use the "make" verb, or is
> it actually some other verb with the ga- prefix? I have searched through
> Dorsey but nothing has caught my eye.
>
> Thanks for your insights!
>
> - Bryan Gordon
>
>


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul  5 19:43:41 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:43:41 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.144341.0500.>

> I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now.  :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization cline.  It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects.  I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages (and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan.  The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line.  It wasn't originally homophonous with the F*** word.  The F word originally had the vowel U, and the form /chu/ or /thu/.  Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw.  And that's where the problem arose!  

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it.  I would have expected /gi-/ also.  I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file slips.  When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in blue magic marker rather than in a notebook.  But my file boxes are all in big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to them yet.  

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the /kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also.  I don't have a dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately.  

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 20:07:12 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:07:12 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A30@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.130712.0700.>

> The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha 
languages (and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed 
from Dakotan.  The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the 
more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I 
suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line. >
   
  dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.
   
  This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for "penis."  (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.)  Dorsey had a few ways of writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi (don't know what the 'diti' is here).   tcaN also seems to be a component of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense.  I'm wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the Biloxi form is cognate.
   
  Dave

"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
  > I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now. :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe. We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all. 

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization cline. It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects. I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'. But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages (and probably all Siouan languages). I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan. The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some borrowing is possible somewhere along the line. It wasn't originally homophonous with the F*** word. The F word originally had the vowel U, and the form /chu/ or /thu/. Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw. And that's where the problem arose! 

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it. I would have expected /gi-/ also. I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file slips. When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in blue magic marker rather than in a notebook. But my file boxes are all in big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to them yet. 

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the /kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also. I don't have a dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately. 

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob



 		
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Jul  5 21:16:55 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:16:55 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <20060705200712.78067.qmail@web53803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.161655.0500.>

> dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis."  (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.)  Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here).   tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense.  I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'.  In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN.  (c = s^ here)  I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame".  Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  5 21:49:22 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:49:22 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE601887A30@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.144922.0700.>

wachu' is the copulatory term in Osage, while waachi' is 'dance'. The
copulatory F*** wachu' is also rendered wachu'e, which makes me think it may
actually be wachuu'.  I'll have to look closely at this possibility.
(waachi'  'dance' is never *waachi'e.)

 

Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e "copulate". Nobody
wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)

 

Carolyn

 

   _____  

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:44 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: More on wachi

 

> I agree with this. The c is most defnitely aspirated, wac^Hi ga'xe , as
Rory
pointed out.

> The "copulatory F*** verb"?! Is that an actual linguistic term? 

I guess it is now.  :-)

> I believe the c is aspirated: wac^Hi'gaghe.  We should check with the
> speakers, but I would guess that this verb might be treated as a unit, or
> not conjugate at all.  

That would be interesting, and one more stage along the grammaticalization
cline.  It is certainly conjugated as a causative in other Dhegiha dialects.
I seriously wonder if the *-re causative is productive with new concepts in
any of the Dhegiha languages now.

> The term is presumably borrowed from Lakhota or a
> related dialect, where wac^Hi is the word for 'dance'.  But in Omaha, this
> word is a little awkward, because c^Hi is their copulatory F*** verb. 

The 'dance' term is common Siouan with cognates in all the Dhegiha languages
(and probably all Siouan languages).  I doubt it was borrowed from Dakotan.
The /ch/ has strange and interesting correspondences in the more distant
languages like Biloxi, Ofo, Crow and Hidatsa though, so I suppose some
borrowing is possible somewhere along the line.  It wasn't originally
homophonous with the F*** word.  The F word originally had the vowel U, and
the form /chu/ or /thu/.  Siouan U became front-rounded umlaut u in Kansa
and Osage, so those languages had /chi/ in 'dance' and /chu/ in 'F***', but
front-rounded [u] often merges with /i/ in Osage and Kaw, and always does in
Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw.  And that's where the problem arose!  

The Kaw verb /kkiighe/ is translated as Dorsey had it.  I would have
expected /gi-/ also.  I need to check my own copy of Dorsey's Kaw file
slips.  When I re-elicited the dictionary, I wrote directly on the slips in
blue magic marker rather than in a notebook.  But my file boxes are all in
big boxes in the garage since I moved my office, and I haven't gotten to
them yet.  

Quapaw has a different form, /kkik-kaghe/ 'to do for oneself', with has the
/kkik-/ reflexive prefix and the verb initial /k/ also.  I don't have a
dative or benefactive in Quapaw, unfortunately.  

I seem to recall that John Koontz has made a study of these particular
forms, so maybe he'll clear it all up for us.

Bob


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From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 22:32:49 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:32:49 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <OF9CD8BD8D.1C9851D5-ON862571A2.007273C5-862571A2.0073876E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.153249.0700.>

> dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about? >
   
  Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  
   
  > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ? >
   
  Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory



 		
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 22:39:08 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:39:08 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.173908.0500.>

> Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e "copulate". Nobody
> wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)
>
> Carolyn
>

Um...yeah, Carolyn. I had a first hand experience with that one during the
time we were having Osage class at your home in Tulsa. Smart boy here
decided to ask for the bread in Osage - at the urging of my uncle - from an
elderly Osage lady (who shall remain nameless) sitting across from us at a
peyote meeting noon meal. As her eyes grew to the size of quarters and Jim
Duncan dropped his fork, my uncle said "idadoN egi'she?" (what did you
say?). I simply said: I dunno, I just asked for the bread. That got quite a
laugh out of the old lady. She said "Oh sonny, it's good you're trying to
learn." Later as we drove home I asked my uncle: "What the heck was that all
about?" After explaining that I didn't say it correctly, he said: "You know
nephew, I haven't seen a look like that in my sister's eyes in a loooong
time!".

Oh, the joys of learning a new language!


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  5 22:46:23 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:46:23 -0700
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <20060705223249.97672.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.154623.0700.>

Ooops.
   
  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi -- actually caNditi is glossed as 'penis' not breechcloth, which is caNte, although this -te could possibly be related to -thi, house, or as Rory says 'container'?
   
  BTW--While we're on the subject, JOD has the following in the D-S dictionary: waktcaNyadi (waakcaNyadi) which is waaka, cow + caN? + aNya, person + di (topicalizer, def. article?).  JOD notates that this may have a phallic reference if it's component parts are: waak, cow + caN (genitalia) + person!  He glosses this as the name of a dark-skinned people who used to dwell on the Red River, above Lecompte, LA.  I have no clear idea who these people are!  (But I got a laugh out of it!)  
   
  Dave
   
  
David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about? >
   
  Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  
   
  > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ? >
   
  Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

Any idea what the di- is about?

> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
"penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
(don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
Biloxi form is cognate.

In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
genitalia' ?

There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
not).

Rory


    
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From tmleonard at cox.net  Wed Jul  5 23:09:07 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 18:09:07 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.180907.0500.>

>
> In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
> 'scrotum'.  In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN.  (c = s^ here)  I've
> always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
> that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain
archaic
> uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame".  Dave's
> Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
> option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
> Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
> container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
> genitalia' ?
>

I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity between the word s^aN
and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. He told me: "After awhile
we couldn't keep saying s^aN because they could understand that....kinda
offended them.  So I guess them old folks changed it over to "s^aa" or "s^aN
a" or  "s^aN ama" -THAT one we understood.....that there were more than one
of  'em. But they never did catch that. "

> There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
> believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, the
> word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
> not).

In Ponca the term for "apron" or "breechclout" is z^e atigthoN or z^e ati
agthoN.


From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul  6 02:27:54 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 21:27:54 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.212754.0500.>

Oh yes!
Breechcloth  in IOM  is   re'rokina ~ re'rok^inna.  A gloss is "covers the penis".
Actual analysis is not so clear after the word "re'".  So just off the rough of my mind on this late evening....
The 1st version may be the root from  -  aru'kije (wrap around; wraps; bands).  The 2nd version may be from  -  k^in  (wear; have on [Otoe]; carry, pack on the back; wear [Ioway])  
K^in  is especially used when wearing a robe, blanket, or coat.  When speaking English, the folks would say:  "You better pack a coat.  It's cold."
Jimm 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kaufman 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:46 PM
  Subject: RE: More on wachi


  Ooops.

  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi -- actually caNditi is glossed as 'penis' not breechcloth, which is caNte, although this -te could possibly be related to -thi, house, or as Rory says 'container'?

  BTW--While we're on the subject, JOD has the following in the D-S dictionary: waktcaNyadi (waakcaNyadi) which is waaka, cow + caN? + aNya, person + di (topicalizer, def. article?).  JOD notates that this may have a phallic reference if it's component parts are: waak, cow + caN (genitalia) + person!  He glosses this as the name of a dark-skinned people who used to dwell on the Red River, above Lecompte, LA.  I have no clear idea who these people are!  (But I got a laugh out of it!)  

  Dave


  David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
    > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

    Any idea what the di- is about? >

    Isn't di- cognate with other Siouan languages' ri- or li- (at least I think this last is Tutelo; I believe 'dance' is 'lichi' in Tutelo; can't remember Ofo off hand).  I forget what this ri- or di- prefix actually means, though.  

    > Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
    container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
    genitalia' ? >

    Interesting!  I wonder if caNditi 'breechcloth' in Biloxi is actually caN 'genitalia' + -di, which is a type of topicalizer or definite article possibly (the jury's still out) + thi, house: i.e., the-genitalia-house?

    Dave


    Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
      > dici for 'dance' in Biloxi.

      Any idea what the di- is about?

      > This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask on the Biloxi word for
      "penis." (Hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but in the context of
      comparative Siouan studies I feel I need to ask.) Dorsey had a few ways of
      writing this, one I think is tcoN and the others are tcaN and tcoNditi
      (don't know what the 'diti' is here). tcaN also seems to be a component
      of the word for breechcloth, tcaNte, which I guess makes sense. I'm
      wondering what other Siouan languages have for this body part and if the
      Biloxi form is cognate.

      In OP, caNde' is the word for the male genitalia, glossed by Dorsey as
      'scrotum'. In Lakhota, the word for 'vagina' is caN. (c = s^ here) I've
      always surmised that these two terms must go back to an earlier *caN word
      that could refer to the privates of either sex, rather like certain archaic
      uses of the word "shame" in English, as in "cover one's shame". Dave's
      Biloxi data seems to go along with this, and it provides an interesting
      option for where that trailing -de in the OP form might have come from.
      Perhaps: tcaN, 'privates', was incorporated into tcaN-te, 'privates
      container'/'breechcloth', which in turn became the euphemism for 'male
      genitalia' ?

      There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
      believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye. In Omaha, the
      word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is aspirated or
      not).

      Rory





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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul  6 02:36:48 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 21:36:48 -0500
Subject: Fw: More on wachi
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUL.2006.213648.0500.>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Red Corn" <>
To: <goodtracks at peoplepc.comgoodtracks@peoplepc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: More on wachi


> ya i have heard the same thing... i always specify what type of bread  
> to avoid this... for instance when asking for fry bread i say  
> wa.tsu'e pa.sa.hi kon.bra
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 6:43 PM, <goodtracks at peoplepc.com>  
> <goodtracks at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> 
>> Is this true??
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Leonard" <tmleonard at cox.net>
>> To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: More on wachi
>>
>>
>>>> Lots of laughs in Osage with wacu'e 'bread' vs. wachu'e  
>>>> "copulate". Nobody
>>>> wants to ask for the bread at dinner.:-)
>>>>
>>>> Carolyn


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul  6 08:23:27 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:23:27 +0200
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <005001c6a088$04d4f720$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.102327.0200.>

breechcloth in Lakota is chegn?ke (obviously from: ch? - penis and 
ogn?kA - to place in, cf. ogn?ke - a place to keep things in; also 
ogn?gnakapi - a chest or smth to store things in).

Interestingly, there's also chegn?kekitxuN and chegn?kitxuN as a verb 
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be 
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

Also, I wonder if L che?ktxuN - to make a bridge (che?ktxuNpi - bridge) 
is related in some way.

Alfred

Am 06.07.2006 um 01:09 schrieb Tom Leonard:

>
>
>> There is another word explicitly for 'penis' in MVS: z^e in OP and I
>> believe c^He in Dakotan, which should go back to MVS *ye.  In Omaha, 
>> the
>> word for 'breechcloth' is z^e-atigraN (not sure if that t is 
>> aspirated or
>> not).
>
> In Ponca the term for "apron" or "breechclout" is z^e atigthoN or z^e 
> ati
> agthoN.


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 14:47:37 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:47:37 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <90d37e6fb13be868740f9b6f4f08dd00@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.094737.0500.>

Alfred wrote:
> Interestingly, there's also chegn?kekitxuN and chegn?kitxuN as a verb
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

In OP, the 'th' symbol is traditionally used for their version of the MVS
*r, which seems to be a sort of retroflex glide from l to edh.  Since edh
is spelled th in English, this digraph is traditionally used for this
sound, which I have been calling ledh, and have recently taken to typing as
r.  But generally if you see an OP word with a th in it, the sound has
nothing to do with either t or h.  So the gthoN would not be related to La.
kitxuN.  I think it is probably cognate to the gna in ognakA.  It seems to
mean something like 'to fit (into)', and it's usually combined with
something else.

I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:

  che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
  penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
  thing against which to keep one's penis in place

?

Rory



> breechcloth in Lakota is chegn?ke (obviously from: ch? - penis and
ogn?kA - to place in, cf. ogn?ke - a place to keep things in; also
ogn?gnakapi - a chest or smth to store things in).

Interestingly, there's also chegn?kekitxuN and chegn?kitxuN as a verb
with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?

Also, I wonder if L che?ktxuN - to make a bridge (che?ktxuNpi - bridge)
is related in some way.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  6 15:43:40 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:43:40 -0600
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607042103w210b5adoddf11264036013b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.094340.0600.>

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Bryan Gordon wrote:
> I hope people don't mind if a barrage of questions exudes from my corner;
> I'm analysing so much text that I'm running into countless issues which no
> doubt many of you have encountered before.

Actually, it might be worth searchign the archives on some of these, as
they tend to come up once a year!

> The OP verb for dancing is "waci gaghe" (not sure if that c is aspirated
> or not). I had always assumed this was a noun plus the verb "to make."
> Makes sense. But Hahn (p. 54) lists this lexeme amid her explanation of
> conjugation of verbs with the ga- instrumental prefix. Of course,
> "gaghe" "to make" does NOT have this prefix! If it did, we would get
> *aaghe - thaaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai for the conjugations, but instead
> of course we get paghe - shkaghe - gaghai - aNgaghai.

I agree that Hahn is simply wrong on this once, though she might have
found a nonce form from someone.  Delightful information from Tom Leonard,
Carolyn Quintero, Jimm Good Tracks et al on the inflections and pitfalls
of this term.

The 'copulate' verb is cognate across MVS at least, with Dakota hu, OP
c^hi (presumably diminutive of thi), Winnebago j^u and so on suggesting
PMVS *thu.  I think that OP c^hi being diminutive involves some sort of
mitigation.  Of course, wac^hi is the indefinite object form and perhaps
more likely in conversation than plain c^hi.  Maybe c^hi avoids homophony
with thi 'to arrive', though the inflection of motion verbs is a bit
different from that of others, due to the "a-" locative in
plural/proximate forms.

OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to
play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
fashion'.

The 'dance' set in Siouan similar to OP wac^hi (gaghe) is highly irregular
in its correspondences - at least as irregular as the tobacco set - so I
suspect it of being a loan set.  I doubt the concept of dancing is recent,
but perhaps this set originally refers to particular steps or particular
social contexts for dancing that were new.  I seem to recall an expression
on the order of hedhu's^ka=ma wac^hi' gaghe 'they were hethuska dancing'.

To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is
particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul  6 16:00:38 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:00:38 -0600
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <OF26850537.D5654F66-ON862571A2.0057275F-862571A2.005690D3@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.100038.0600.>

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Rory M Larson wrote:
> > Gaaghe is an interesting verb nonetheless in that it seems to lose its
> initial G on occasion in forms like Kansa /kkiighe/  <   kkiaghe 'make or
> do to or for someone'. (Dorsey, Kaw file)
>
> ??  In OP, we have gi- for the 'dative' form:
>
>   gia'ghe 'make or do for someone'
>     iNga'ghe '...     for me'
>     ria'ghe  '...     for you'
>
> How does dative OP gi- relate to dative Kaw kki-  ?

As Bob suggested in a posting after this, I have looked at the Dhegiha
(and MVS) datives and noticed this peculiarity of the datives.  In fact, I
can supply a pretty thorough handout summarizing the datives et al. in MVS
if anyone is interested.

In terms strictly of Dhegiha, people may want to note that the OP datives,
regular and syncopating (or irregular) are quite different from those in
Osage, Kaw, and Quapaw (to the extent the latter is known).  It's almost
like having an additional branch to MVS:  Dakotan, Omaha-Ponca,
Osage-Kaw-Quapaw, and Winnebago-Chiwere.  Actually, there are some
differences in this area between Winnebago and Ioway-Otoe, but not as
major as those within Dhegiha.

Considering the k-stems only, OP has gi-V... < underlying //gi-gV...//,
for all of the type 1 k-stems, i.e., gaaghe, gaNaNze, and so on, yield
giaghe, giaNze, etc.  This happens only in the third person, so you get

A1    e'ppaghe
A2  dhe's^kaghe
A3    giagha=i

(Rory gives the object forms, using his own notation.)

In Osage, etc., the third persons seem to be khi(a)ghe, khioNze, etc.,
which are, naturally, given Osage aspirate affrication, written
ks^i(a)ghe, ks^ioNze, etc.  (From memory.)  I won't venture to try to
remember the inflected forms!

I'd be curious if Kaw kki(a)ghe comes from elicitation or from a Dorsey
form that might be ambiguous with khi(a)ghe.  I'd expect the aspirate
because the Osage data is so clear on aspiration.

I have hypotheses about what is happening in these forms, diachronically,
but for the moment let me confine myself to saying, yes, there is this
very odd difference in the k-stem datives of OP and "Southern Dheigha."

The plain old regular dative is quite different, too.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul  6 18:02:48 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:02:48 +0200
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <OF2B2E7D22.F2502792-ON862571A3.004EDF73-862571A3.004FE362@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.200248.0200.>

Am 06.07.2006 um 16:47 schrieb Rory M Larson:

> Alfred wrote:
>> Interestingly, there's also chegn?kekitxuN and chegn?kitxuN as a verb
> with the meaning 'to put on/wear a breechcloth' which seems to be
> related with OP z^e atigthoN etc., doesn't it?
>
> (...)
>
> I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
> especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:
>
>   che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
>   penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
>   thing against which to keep one's penis in place
>
> ?
>
> Rory


I wonder what is the word to parse as 'against' here. Is it 'a'? (in 
OP?)

Could it be broken down to:
chegn?ke ki(N) txuN
penis-put/lay-it the have/possess-it
breechcloth-the have/possess-it
one has/wears it as a breechcloth
wearing a breechcloth

As for the -ki-, another approach doesn't seem to make much sense:
kitxuN(yaN) -  in an increasing manner, growing,
where the ki- affix seems to be the one of ki?g^uyapi - to turn to 
bread, i.e. denoting a process of alteration/transformation/change

Alfred


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 19:07:51 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:07:51 -0500
Subject: More on wachi
In-Reply-To: <f5b9e9ef78318b19a3fa6d2dd07b62a1@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.140751.0500.>

>> I wonder if La. txuN is cognate to OP ttaN, which means to 'have',
>> especially in a characteristic way.  Could that word parse as:
>>
>>   che   gna(ke) a       ki        txuN
>>   penis fit     against one's-own have/keep
>>   thing against which to keep one's penis in place
>
> I wonder what is the word to parse as 'against' here. Is it 'a'? (in
> OP?)

Yes, in OP that would be right; I'm not sure about Lakhota, but I think
it's general to MVS.  a'- = 'to'/'at'/'against'.  It reminds me a lot of
Latin ad- before a verb.

Rory


From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul  6 21:17:06 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:17:06 +0100
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <005001c6a088$04d4f720$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.221706.0100.>

I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
between the word 
s^aN
and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. 


Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
explanations of this term. Can anyone help

Bruce--- 


	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine 
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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Jul  6 21:44:45 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:44:45 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <20060706211706.74498.qmail@web26805.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.164445.0500.>

Bruce Ingham wrote:

> I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
> between the word 
> s^aN
> and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux. 
> 
> 
> Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
> some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
> explanations of this term. Can anyone help

Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota ?a?o?na 
(c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't 
know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' a? is more properly 
rendered now as ? (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is 
the correct Net Siouan.)

Alan


From linguista at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 21:59:55 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:59:55 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607061459g4f79330bqab49d9e44eb31d9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.165955.0500.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Gordon <egonxti at gmail.com>
Date: Jul 6, 2006 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: OP dancing
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu



On 7/6/06, Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>
> OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
> strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
> causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to
>
> play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
> fashion'.


That does make perfect sense somehow. This would be the same "gaghe" that we
see whenever IshtinikHe (INshtiNthiNkhe??) pretends to be a turkey or
something. I also ran into a particularly confounding usage in analysing the
legend of Ukiabi (Dorsey 1890 609-613):
GaN maNshiata iNbeziga-ma wiN maNghe ibisaNdexti gawiNghe maNthiN
gaghai-tHe-ha, izhiNga-akHa.
I thought at first that the three verbs "gawiNghe-maNthiN-gaghai" formed a
serial construction, but could not figure out what the heck it would be,
until it occurred to me that this was just a very opaque relative
construction! Basically, the son pretended to be a yellow-tailed hawk flying
up high right against the sky, so everything up to "maNthiN" is actually a
relative clause headed by "iNbeziga-ma wiN." Then I suppose that
"iNbeziga-ma wiN" itself means something like "one of the yellow-tailed
hawks," as in "a member of that class."


> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is
> particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
> =dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
> Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
> fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.


That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested to
hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence of
-the.
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From ahartley at d.umn.edu  Thu Jul  6 22:01:00 2006
From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:01:00 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <44AD844D.5090608@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.170100.0500.>

Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> Bruce Ingham wrote:
> 
>> I once asked an elderly Ponca man about the similarity
>> between the word s^aN
>> and s^aaN or s^aN ama, the name give to the Sioux.
>>
>> Is this word connected to the word Saone applied to
>> some Lakota bands.  I have never quite understood the
>> explanations of this term. Can anyone help
> 
> 
> Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota ?a?o?na 
> (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't 
> know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' a? is more properly 
> rendered now as ? (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is 
> the correct Net Siouan.)

But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown 
original form and etymology.

Alan


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul  6 23:08:33 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:08:33 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.180833.0500.>

> OP wac^hi gaghe 'to dance' seems likely to involve some sort of avoidance
strategy.  I think gaghe here (gaaghe, I suppose) is not strictly
causative, but more like the use of gaghe as 'to behave as, to emulate, to 
play the, to magically become', so something like 'to behave in a wac^hi
fashion'.
 
"Make like".

> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is 
particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data. 

> That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested to hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence of -the. 
 
Certainly was in Kansa.  If /gaaghe/ means 'make like (a)' in OP, it generally translates 'make' in just about any AUX usage except "to have as a" kinship term.
 
I'll have to check to see how I recorded Dorsey's /kkiaghe/.  He often failed to distinguish aspirates and geminates in Kaw and I'll have to find my file box.
 
Bob


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Thu Jul  6 23:55:36 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:55:36 -0500
Subject: OP dancing
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489489@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.185536.0500.>

John wrote:
> To address a point raised by Bob Rankin, I don't think causative gaghe is

particularly common, except in the sense above, in Omaha-Ponca.  The
=dhe/=khidhe/=kkidhe/=gidhe causative seems to be the productive one.
Osage (and I gather Kaw) do regularly use gaghe in a more causative
fashion, judging from Carolyn's data.

Bryan wrote:
> That does seem to fit with my impressions as well, but I'd be interested
to hear if gaghe is gaining currency among modern speakers at the expence
of -the.

Bob wrote:
> Certainly was in Kansa.  If /gaaghe/ means 'make like (a)' in OP, it
generally translates 'make' in just about any AUX usage except "to have as
a" kinship term.

I think my limited (mostly to two speakers) experience tends to favor Bob's
view on this for modern Omaha.  I know I've been disappointed and shot down
repeatedly over the past six years, trying to garner their support in front
of the class for my explanations and exercises for the causative -re
construction, only to have them dispute the word or suggest an alternative
construction in gaaghe.  For the Dorsey OP material though, the -re
construction certainly predominates, as John and Bryan indicate.

Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Fri Jul  7 00:01:10 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 19:01:10 -0500
Subject: kkiaghe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607060944170.11852@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.190110.0500.>

John wrote:
> As Bob suggested in a posting after this, I have looked at the Dhegiha
(and MVS) datives and noticed this peculiarity of the datives.  In fact, I
can supply a pretty thorough handout summarizing the datives et al. in MVS
if anyone is interested.

I would be very interested.  Thanks for the reply on datives, and for the
daring suggestion that OP constitutes a fifth branch of MVS!

Rory


From rwd0002 at unt.edu  Fri Jul  7 03:26:12 2006
From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:26:12 -0500
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <b9cfeed3d1b6bd33e398cc1e0c4d33a3@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUL.2006.222612.0500.>

Quoting "A.W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de>:

> Clive,
>
> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr. 
> Emil  Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets are 
> in  English only, aren't they?

Actually, no, the original editions are bilingual English-Lakota.  I do 
own a copy of a monolingual English "Brave Against the Enemy", but I 
have seen the original edition, which is bilingual, and its Lakota text 
looks impressive.

Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Fri Jul  7 06:00:36 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:00:36 +1000
Subject: Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's style (A Personal Impression)
In-Reply-To: <20060706222612.d73dkx0nceo88848@eaglemail.unt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUL.2006.160036.1000.>

Hello Willem, It seems also that "Watakpeya Tanka", (subtitled :  
"Toni kin itowapi kicunyan oyake kin he."), a life of St. Francis  
Xavier penned by Fr. George M. Schurhammer SJ, published originally  
in 1925, was in fact translated into Lakota by Mr. EMIL AFRAID-OF- 
HAWK, no less!  Apparently the work was republished in 1996, and  
appears in the Bibliography of "Lakota", by Bruce Ingham, Lincom  
Europa, 2003. Schurhammer, one reads, was a German Jesuit orientalist  
historian born near Freiburg, Germany in 1882, who apparently spent  
the years 1908 to 1912 in South India (Malabar Coast), and became an  
authority on the great Missionary-Saint of the ("Far")-East. One's  
impression is that he spent the rest of his life in the Vatican,  
apart from trips to Goa, and Japan in the early '50's. (For us down  
here of course, it is the "Near North"!). Toksha akhe,  
Clive.                                                                   
                                                     P.S. I'm not  
sure of the exact sense of "kicunyan" in that subtitle above . I took  
it to mean :  "(The Great Attack) :The narrative[.lit.'he tells/ 
reports'-presumably, nominalized] of his life (....[clothing it in?])  
pictures." Buechel-Manhart is not a huge help, merely listing  
"kic'?NyaN" (adverb) = "in a clothed manner.", under the well-known  
verb : "kic'?N/w?c'uN", meaning "to put on/wear (clothes, etc.)" B-M.  
also renders the phrase "tancan kic'unyan" [="a body dressed"]. Any  
elucidation for amateurs gratefully received!
On 07/07/2006, at 1:26 PM, rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote:

> Quoting "A.W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de>:
>
>> Clive,
>>
>> with regard to those copies pointed to by you, not mentioning Mr.  
>> Emil  Afraid-Of-Hawk seems to be  no wonder, since the booklets  
>> are in  English only, aren't they?
>
> Actually, no, the original editions are bilingual English-Lakota.   
> I do own a copy of a monolingual English "Brave Against the Enemy",  
> but I have seen the original edition, which is bilingual, and its  
> Lakota text looks impressive.
>
> Willem


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Fri Jul  7 19:50:15 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 05:50:15 +1000
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <20060627201045.86039.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.055015.1000.>

Hello Dave, Sorry for taking so long to reply: I've been rather busy.  
Thanks for all of that wonderful information you so kindly supplied!  
Actually I was expecting that D-S Biloxi dictionary to be fairly  
difficult to use, with inconsistencies & confusions galore, not just  
in orthography, judging from my experiences with other dictionaries/ 
grammars of yesteryear, like Rev. Cyrus Byington's Dictionary of  
Choctaw, for instance. So the Einaudi treatise also has some  
orthographical problems also, eh? (Actually I have applied to obtain  
it on inter-library loan : when I do get it, & I have a clearer idea  
of the language's basic grammatical/syntactic structures,  I may have  
a go at  writing you a short letter in Biloxi.)  Thank you also for  
that analysis of the Biloxi sentence : most interesting. Would one be  
correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor"  
pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point  
of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated  
due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of  
"oyakA" [=tell; recount]? Can't think of any Lakhota analogue of  
"ade" ("iya/ia" [=speak]; "iyapi"[=speech, language]??). Might "- 
iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive  
infix), or even possibly with : "iyechinka" (adv. "of one's own  
accord")?? ; "-spe" seems fairly obviously a cognate of Lakhota :  
"(uN/oN)spe" [= to know how to..."] ; "uNsp?khiyA" [=" cause to know  
how to=>teach"; "uNsp?ic'iciyA" [="teach oneself=>learn"] ; with  "- 
ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota? One supposes "YaNdi" to be  
from same word-root as "chante" [=heart]; while "phi" [=good] might  
have many cognates in Lakhota : "phiic'iyA" [=to make oneself  
'good'=>prepare oneself/make ready]? ; "phiya" [=to make 'good'=>to  
mend/repair//conjure the sick]; not to mention the many derivatives  
of "phila" [=to regard as 'good'=>be glad/rejoice=>be grateful/ 
thankful]?? Does that reply to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply  
mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? I wonder whether Biloxi  
had an equivalent word/phrase for "goodbye/so long/see you!"  
involving the equivalent of the adverb "again" &/or an indefinite  
adverb of time corresponding to idea of "by and by/later on/before  
long" etc., like Lakhota's : "toksha akhe" ?? Does Biloxi show a  
greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or  
rather from Tunica? Chitimacha?   Thanks also for the sample of  
Rumsien Ohlone. Was it spoken in the Carmel area? Wonder if "Rowdy  
Yates" had ever heard of it? :), Best wishes, Clive.
On 28/06/2006, at 6:10 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

> Hi Clive,
>
> > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on  
> a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?:  
> another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you  
> will have someone to write/speak to >
>
> You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user- 
> UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am  
> currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a  
> more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a  
> format where you can simply look up the English word and get the  
> full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary,  
> you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the  
> orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading)  
> in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.
>
> > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means  
> exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically  
> speaking? >
>
> Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye  
> (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade =  
> language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye =  
> cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."
>
> Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really  
> the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not  
> flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply  
> stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding  
> out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative  
> research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be  
> represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised  
> grammar together along with the revised dictionary.   
> (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us  
> I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)
>
> > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've  
> just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey"  
> under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok- 
> Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter?  
> Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >
>
> Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list  
> (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer  
> your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the  
> jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some  
> propose that it includes languages all the way up into British  
> Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages  
> are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in  
> the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone  
> languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon  
> which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do.
>
> > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >
>
> Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French  
> bonjour)
> How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart  
> good?
> I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!
>
> Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!
>
> And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in  
> Rumsien)!
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>> >
>> > advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different.  
>> Just radically better.
>
>
>
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone  
> call rates.

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul  8 05:55:50 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 23:55:50 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <44AD881C.7010900@d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUL.2006.235550.0600.>

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota ?a?o?na

Shorn of diacritics, the first version looks like AMaAkoAna at my end.

> > (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't
> > know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' a? is more properly
> > rendered now as ? (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is
> > the correct Net Siouan.)
>
> But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown
> original form and etymology.

I doubt the Riggs and other etymologies I've seen.  The Handbook is being
reasonable and cautious, but I suspect something like OP s^aaN' is the
underlying form.  There's no connection with Dakota s^aN 'vagina', though
that similarity seems to have been noticed as a potential problem.  For
cognates of s^a cf. Winnebago s^aa, or Mandan sa ~ sare (i.e., sa(r)-)
'vulva, vagina'.

Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables, though it my recollection of
the phonetics is something like s^auN, with uN reduced almost to w.

For the connection of OP s^aaN' (the Handbook cites Ponca s^a),
augumenting the CSD with the Handbook, 13:750-1, cf.

Ks s^ahaN'

Quapaw s^ahaN' is said to be 'Cheyenne', but I think this is late
confusion with the very similar s^ahi(a) word for 'Cheyenne'.

IO s^a'haN ~ s^a
Wi s^aahaNaN'  (s^aawiN' 'Sioux woman')

The MVS forms suggest *s^ahaN.

Further afield, perhaps with sound symbolic shift of s^ to x, note Mandan
xaN(nuNmaNk) 'Sioux', literally xaN-person.  This was interpreted by
Hollow as involving xaN(h)- 'grass'.  I imagine the etymology was offered
by his consultants.  In xaN(h)- the (h) represents the alternation between
xaN (generally in compounds and syntactically subordinate contexts) and
xaNhe (independent) in xaN ~ xaNhe 'grass'.  The Handbook 18:751 cites
Mauricio Mixco for xaNhnuNuNmaNk 'grass person'.  The length of uN
suggests Mauricio is reporting a personal hearing (Hollow omits length),
but I think the -h- reflects Mauricio's own penchant for using Hollow's
underlying or "pre-Mandan" forms as surface spellings.  That is, I suspect
the h is not audible.  While xaN(h)- clearly does mean 'grass' in some
contexts, I am not sure that it means that in the context of
xaNnuN(uN)maNk, whether or not the h is properly considered as present.

I wonder if this folk analysis ties in, however, with the northern
tendency to refer to the Hethushka in its Sioux form as the "Grass Dance."

Also possibly relevant:  Arikara sananat and Pawnee cararaat 'Sioux;
enemy'.  I think these have no etymology as such.  I assume the sana-
and cara- parts are the relevant ones.

Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo
wasaaha, Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I
think, but the lack of nasalization in the final vowel seems to me to
indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan source or
sources.

If the the Siouan data support *s^ahuN I'd be tempted to suggest s^ahaN
meant, historically, s^ah Cree' + ?uN 'do', i.e., 'act the Cheyenne;
behave like a Cree'.

Of course, Dakota s^aoN, saoN - SauN to use the CSD convention of S for
s ~ s^ ~ x - may well suggest *s^ahuN, but IO and Winnebago should also
have uN.  Since they have aN, this is a problem.


From tmleonard at cox.net  Sat Jul  8 13:57:25 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 08:57:25 -0500
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.085725.0500.>

>>Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables.......

I think that was the point the Ponca man was trying to get across in my
previous story - that the word s^aN for Sioux was purposefully changed to a
two syllable word. I imagine it could all boil down to a folk etymology, but
it was rather comical at the time.

I've heard several Ponca elders translate "s^ai ethe" or "s^ahi ethe" as
"Cheyenne", but being derived from "s^aN" (Sioux) and "ethe" (relatives) or
"relatives of the Sioux". In light of the discussion, would you suppose this
as a folk analysis?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>
To: "Siouan" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: s^aaN for Sioux


On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote:
> > Riggs (Dakota English Dict. (1890) 91) etymologizes Dakota ?a?o?na

Shorn of diacritics, the first version looks like AMaAkoAna at my end.

> > (c^aNo'na), a subgroup of the Yanktonais, as 'wood hitters'. (I don't
> > know the Net Siouan for eng, hence the N. If Riggs' a? is more properly
> > rendered now as ? (a-hook; Latin small letter A with ogonek), then aN is
> > the correct Net Siouan.)
>
> But Hdbk. N. Amer. Indians XIII (2001) 757 says Saone is of unknown
> original form and etymology.

I doubt the Riggs and other etymologies I've seen.  The Handbook is being
reasonable and cautious, but I suspect something like OP s^aaN' is the
underlying form.  There's no connection with Dakota s^aN 'vagina', though
that similarity seems to have been noticed as a potential problem.  For
cognates of s^a cf. Winnebago s^aa, or Mandan sa ~ sare (i.e., sa(r)-)
'vulva, vagina'.

Underlyingly s^aaN 'Sioux' is two syllables, though it my recollection of
the phonetics is something like s^auN, with uN reduced almost to w.

For the connection of OP s^aaN' (the Handbook cites Ponca s^a),
augumenting the CSD with the Handbook, 13:750-1, cf.

Ks s^ahaN'

Quapaw s^ahaN' is said to be 'Cheyenne', but I think this is late
confusion with the very similar s^ahi(a) word for 'Cheyenne'.

IO s^a'haN ~ s^a
Wi s^aahaNaN'  (s^aawiN' 'Sioux woman')

The MVS forms suggest *s^ahaN.

Further afield, perhaps with sound symbolic shift of s^ to x, note Mandan
xaN(nuNmaNk) 'Sioux', literally xaN-person.  This was interpreted by
Hollow as involving xaN(h)- 'grass'.  I imagine the etymology was offered
by his consultants.  In xaN(h)- the (h) represents the alternation between
xaN (generally in compounds and syntactically subordinate contexts) and
xaNhe (independent) in xaN ~ xaNhe 'grass'.  The Handbook 18:751 cites
Mauricio Mixco for xaNhnuNuNmaNk 'grass person'.  The length of uN
suggests Mauricio is reporting a personal hearing (Hollow omits length),
but I think the -h- reflects Mauricio's own penchant for using Hollow's
underlying or "pre-Mandan" forms as surface spellings.  That is, I suspect
the h is not audible.  While xaN(h)- clearly does mean 'grass' in some
contexts, I am not sure that it means that in the context of
xaNnuN(uN)maNk, whether or not the h is properly considered as present.

I wonder if this folk analysis ties in, however, with the northern
tendency to refer to the Hethushka in its Sioux form as the "Grass Dance."

Also possibly relevant:  Arikara sananat and Pawnee cararaat 'Sioux;
enemy'.  I think these have no etymology as such.  I assume the sana-
and cara- parts are the relevant ones.

Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo
wasaaha, Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I
think, but the lack of nasalization in the final vowel seems to me to
indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan source or
sources.

If the the Siouan data support *s^ahuN I'd be tempted to suggest s^ahaN
meant, historically, s^ah Cree' + ?uN 'do', i.e., 'act the Cheyenne;
behave like a Cree'.

Of course, Dakota s^aoN, saoN - SauN to use the CSD convention of S for
s ~ s^ ~ x - may well suggest *s^ahuN, but IO and Winnebago should also
have uN.  Since they have aN, this is a problem.


From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  9 00:31:20 2006
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 17:31:20 -0700
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607072251130.24901@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUL.2006.173120.0700.>

> Note also Miami-Illinois s^aaha and as^aaha, Fox as^aaha, Kickapoo wasaaha,
> Shawnee s^aha.  These forms suggest something like *was^aaha, I think, but the
> lack of nasalization in the final vowel
 
Ojibwe is the only Central Algonquian language that has contrastive vowel
nasalization, and there it's only word-final. So when Algonquian languages
borrowed this word from Siouan, the speakers would have just dropped the
vowel nasalization.

> seems to me to indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan
> source or sources.
> 
Almost certainly so, since these words are phonotactically rather abnormal
from the perspective of Algonquian languages.

Dave


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Jul  9 21:22:29 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:22:29 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <C0D59C67.4031%pankihtamwa@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUL.2006.152229.0600.>

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006, David Costa wrote:
> > seems to me to indicate that these terms have been borrowed from a Siouan
> > source or sources.

> Almost certainly so, since these words are phonotactically rather abnormal
> from the perspective of Algonquian languages.

They're a bit weird from a Siouan perspective, too, though not impossible.
More likely if derived from some verbal source and not actually simple
nouns.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sun Jul  9 21:47:59 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:47:59 -0600
Subject: s^aaN for Sioux
In-Reply-To: <000501c6a296$7169efc0$f5f1e544@tu.ok.cox.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUL.2006.154759.0600.>

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006, Tom Leonard wrote:
> I think that was the point the Ponca man was trying to get across in my
> previous story - that the word s^aN for Sioux was purposefully changed to a
> two syllable word. I imagine it could all boil down to a folk etymology, but
> it was rather comical at the time.

I suppose the humor might vary in inverse proportion to the number of
Dakotas present.

However, the presence of h in all the non-Omaha-Ponca forms suggests that
the word was originally bisyllabic and that Omaha-Ponca has simply lost
the h between vowels.  There are a few other cases of this in OP, though
it's a sporadic change, and not a regular one.  I think another example is
maNa 'bank'.  It's always nice to have s^aaN (s^-a-aN) and maNa (m-aN-a)
handy as examples and test cases when thinking about OP phonology and
orthography.  :-)

> I've heard several Ponca elders translate "s^ai ethe" or "s^ahi ethe" as
> "Cheyenne", but being derived from "s^aN" (Sioux) and "ethe" (relatives) or
> "relatives of the Sioux". In light of the discussion, would you suppose this
> as a folk analysis?

Definitely.  We've discussed s^ahi and similar forms on the list in the
past, and those can be searched for, so I won't dig up the details again,
but this form (with h) is a widely attested word for 'Cree' and 'Cheyenne'
(lit. 'little Cree' or given the "sorta" origin of the Dakotan diminutive,
maybe 'so-to-speak Cree').  S^ai would have loss of intervocalic h again.
The Dakota form usually has a theme-vowel or stem-forming vowel -a (which
ablauts to e before =la) yielding *s^ahi-a > s^ahi-e=la.  Forms like
s^ahia (s^ahiya) and plain s^ahi are found in various contexts in various
Siouan languages.  OP s^a(h)iedha is an adaptation of Dakotan s^ahiela.

On the other hand, as I indicated, there is some slight possibility that
s^ahaN might mean 'behaving like a Cree' if it's *s^ah-uN, so 'related to
the Cree' or (to use the old English diminutive) 'Cree-kin', may be an
accidental (or historically persistent?) parallelism.

This hypothetical use of uN 'to do' would parallel Omaha-Ponca usage of
gaghe 'to make, to do' as 'to behave as .., to play the ...'.  Some list
members may remember the discussion of Omaha-Ponca 'make-believe whitemen'
a while back, which involved waxe gaghe 'to play the whiteman'.  Another
example would be (if I remember the phrase) gdhedaN gaghe 'to magically
change into a hawk'.  Since the person in question (in a story) then flies
up the smoke hole we have to assume that more than mere emulation or
intent is potentially indicated in the gaghe construction.

I haven't yet gotten around to seeing if I was able to elicit causatives
in dhe in 1985.  I do remember some gaghe usage, but I think it was just
one possibility.  Better check before I spread too much confusion!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul 10 13:45:58 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:45:58 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.154558.0200.>

Hello experts,

a Chinese friend of mine, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, is doing research on the 
topic of pre-columbian Sino-American contacts (Zheng He) and only 
recently had a series of press conference and lectures about Zheng He 
and America on his tour in Hongkong. He owns a Chinese medal unearthed 
in the East Coast area (former Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is 
reflecting about linguistic relationship of the term for 'china clay' 
in former southern Chinese and the Native American languages 
respectively.
Here's what he is stating:

"The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for  china clay is 
?unaker?, similar to what Chinese call  ?? ?uk-na[ke]? in  southern 
dialect. Is it a coincidence?   This happened before the arrival of the 
Europeans.   The Chinese name uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty.   It 
was later replaced by other terms like china clay and kaolin.   A 
Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might have brought  the 
clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the porcelain gifts 
(...)"

I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your opinions on this issue 
as far as linguistic aspects are involved.

Here's the link to further details: http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/

Thank's in advance!

Alfred 
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 18:39:48 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:39:48 -0600
Subject: Ponca on NPR
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.123948.0600.>

Did anyone else hear all the Ponca on NPR last night?  It was part of a
story on pollution in Ponca City from a carbon plant.  There were several
glossed words and a joking sally or two.  I missed the end and haven't had
a chance to try to listen to it all on-line.  It was just like listening
to the Omaha elders in Macy again.

John E. Koontz
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 19:38:00 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:38:00 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <49ac317b0b90a1ea2df6bf584c07be82@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.133800.0600.>

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, A.W. T?ting wrote:
> ... He owns a Chinese medal unearthed in the East Coast area (former
> Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is reflecting about linguistic
> relationship of the term for 'china clay' in former southern Chinese and
> the Native American languages respectively. ...

Well, it never hurts to look, though I'd be concerned in the provenance of
his artifact.  It doesn't sound like he has any way of proving where it
came from.  The web site is full of specifics like depth in soil and
distance from coast, but oblivious to anything of actual archaeological
use.  "The brass medal was discovered under 4 inches of soil in a scantly
populated area several hundred miles inland from the east coast of
America. After almost 600 years, the medal shows no apparent signs of
corrosion, other than a tight coating of soil."  How did it get from these
remarkable coordinates (several hundred miles inland, 4 inches down)  to
him?  How was its arrival dated to the pre-Contact period?  Even if its
provenance is established, it's been easy to get Chinese artifacts, even
ancient ones, to Eastern North America by the usual trade mechanisms from
c. 1550 or so.

> Here's what he is stating:
>
> "The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for  china clay is
> ??unaker??, similar to what Chinese call  ???d ??uk-na[ke]?? in  southern
> dialect. Is it a coincidence?

For those who need it (like me), this decypher to (Cherokee) "unaker"
and (Chinese southern dialet) "uk-na[ke]."  Does Cherokee really have a
special word for "china" or "porcelain"?  "Clay," perhaps in various
colors, and "pot(tery)" would be more likely.

> This happened before the arrival of the Europeans. The Chinese name
> uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty.

I suspect he's relying on his linguistic resemblance and the date of
the medal for dating, which will not get him very far, especially since he
seems to have no way to prove where the medal came from.

I sincerely doubt that it took the Chinese 10,000 years to learn to make
porcelain.  This would mean the initiative was started sometime around
9,000 BC, right?

As far as the special qualifications of the Catawba as potters, I don't
think they or the Cherokee were making porcelain, let alone Ming vases, in
the Contact or pre-Contact period, but I believe a lot of nice loooking
pottery was being produced all over the Americas before Contact though I'm
vague on the dating of the earliest examples.  In most places in the
Eastern part of North America native ceramics were replaced rapidly by
European pots after contact.  This is one of the frustrations that
ethnohistorians and archaeologists have in trying to associate
archaeological sites with historical peoples.

I looked at the links Dr. Lee provides, and it appears that his Cherokee
word comes from this one:

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/11_01/11_14_01/mtn_voices_macon_clay.shtml

The text here mentions "Cherokee clay or unaker."  It sounds like it might
be quoting Thomas Griffiths in the 1760s, in which case there is a strong
possibility that the word so closely resembles the southern Chinese
(Cantonese? Min?) word because it is the Chinese word, being used by the
Griffiths (or whoever is being cited) as a contemporary technical term.
I assume "Cherokee clay"  refers to the particular source of the clay
being exported, while unaker is the technical term for the grade or type.
Unaker is probably intended to spell a contemporary Chinese pronunciation
of u-na-ke.  The orthographic r would indicate that the final e is
pronounced, but the r itself would be silent.  A modern specialist might
have said "kaolin clay from a source on Cherokee lands."  A modern
specialist would also not use -r like this.  This is the usage that you
see in Lewis & Clarke's "Ma-har" for "Omaha."

Incidentally, I think kaolin is pronounced kei'-ol-<lax i>n, I think, in
American English.  A remote cousin once took my family on a tour of the
kaolin processing plant in Wyoming where he worked.

Anyway, we have no evidence that the word is Cherokee, and from the
context, every reason to suspect it is Chinese.

It is definitely true that 18th Century (and earlier) Europeans liked
Chinese ceramics and conducted an extensive trade in it as well as
devoting significant efforts to learning and/or reverse engineering the
Chinese process to permit local manufacture, even of second rate
porcelain.  Locating nearer sources of suitable clay was part of the
process.  Nothing cuts into your margins like shipping something heavy and
fragile around the world in a wind-propelled boat, and even manufacture in
Eastern North America and shipping from there would have been cheaper than
bringing it from China.


From linguista at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 19:53:56 2006
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:53:56 -0500
Subject: Ponca on NPR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101233170.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.145356.0500.>

Do you know where they might have that indexed on the site? I did a quick
search for "Ponca" and found nothing younger than fall 2004.

On 7/10/06, Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> Did anyone else hear all the Ponca on NPR last night?  It was part of a
> story on pollution in Ponca City from a carbon plant.  There were several
> glossed words and a joking sally or two.  I missed the end and haven't had
> a chance to try to listen to it all on-line.  It was just like listening
> to the Omaha elders in Macy again.
>
> John E. Koontz
> http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz
>
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 20:15:43 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:15:43 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101242060.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.141543.0600.>

It appears that there's quite a Web literature on Cherokee unaker clay
amongst collectors and ceramics historians.  While it's possible the word
is of Cherokee origin, I rather wonder if it wasn't something the original
developers of the resource (who used the word in their patent) knew
(however indirectly) from the Chinese literature on the subject.  Of
particular interest is the fact that the final "ke" is "silent" in the
Chinese version.  I think this means that the term is written with three
characters u(k), na and ke, but only the first two are pronounced.  It
would be easy for an 18th Century European working with Chinese technical
materials to conclude that the sequence was pronounced u-na-ker (with
"ker" being a period "r-less dialect" spelling for something we would
probably write "ke"  or "keh" today).

Somehow this reminds me of the Oneota phase in Illinois called "Bold
Counsellor Phase."  The excavator (surname Conrad) apparently named it
after himself, though giving the impression of a Native American source.
Conrad or "Kunrat" - OHG diminutive Kuntz ~ Kuntsch (which is where I come
in) - is 'bold' + 'advice'.  I suspect this standard issue Indo-European
name is supposed to be understood as 'recommending a bold course of
action' and not as 'courageous in counsel' which could easily mean quite
the opposite of 'bold'.  Of course, with any kind of compounding or
incorporation it is often hard to figure out the precise role of the
incorporand. There used to be a small manufacturing plant in Louisville
called "Explosive Fabricators."  Whenever I drove past I used to amuse
myself by trying to parse it.  I think I ultimately came up with four or
five different readings.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 10 20:30:33 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:30:33 -0600
Subject: Ponca on NPR
In-Reply-To: <ad128a3d0607101253h2e3f187cjd28f9f0d4e75b4cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUL.2006.143033.0600.>

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, Bryan Gordon wrote:
> Do you know where they might have that indexed on the site? I did a quick
> search for "Ponca" and found nothing younger than fall 2004.

I couldn't find it at www.npr.org, so I searched the Web geberally for
Ponca and soot and found this:

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=06-P13-00027&segmentID=1

It turns out that the show was "Living on Earth," which is a contractor.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Tue Jul 11 09:09:38 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:09:38 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607101242060.17917@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.110938.0200.>

John,
thanks for your reply.

It is this that I wrote to Dr. L.:

"Dear Siu-Leung,
I read this press release before. I just can suggest (and hopefully 
this had been done already!) to gather and save every minute detail 
about who was the person 'discovering' the medal, his/her entire 
personal, ethnical, educational etc. background, the very details of 
when, how etc. the medal had been unearthed and, and, and... I'd 
imagine that if it were one of our cases to investigate, we'd 
interrogate that person for many days about each single detail in order 
to exclude possible fraud. Going to the public before that might be 
making it (i.e. the highly important circumstances of the discovery 
itself) a 'cold case' irreversibly. IMO, all other investigations (e.g. 
on the medal itself, not to speak of those moreorless speculative ones 
on linguistic or geological grounds) is nothing but 'secondary 
evidence' (Hilfsbeweistatsachen) and of very little value even in the 
best case that the medals authenticity is proved (and not a fake). As 
for me, I'm very skeptical, given the high interest in Chinese circles 
worldwide (albeit at least in the sense of wishful thinking!). Also, 
the fact reported by you that the 'brass' medal was not oxidated and 
only covered by soil/earth(!) actually seems to be highly ominous to 
me.
  I only can wish that something as important as this had already been 
investigated and examined to the bottom before by real experts and not 
just by enthusiastic laymen. If not, the main facts might already be 
lost for ever.

  Best wishes!"

My guess was that the term 'unaker' (and there's even a mountain with 
this name, i.e. Unaker Mt.) and the Chinese u-na(-ke) or such are 
somewhat 'similar' in sound only (hence merely coincidental as very 
often) and that there maybe the 'native' unaker actually exists in, 
say, Cherokee with an etymology of its own that possibly could be 
traced back and broken down. Actually the Chinese characters provided 
by Dr. L. read (UTF-8) ?? and do not represent a 3rd syllable/word as 
it should be giving the -ke(r) of unaker. The two characters are 
spelled [? n?] in Putonghua (Mandarin), a compound word that doesn't 
exist (at least!) in modern language. The (separate) meanings of the 
words is 'chalk' and 'mud' respectively. Also, in at least one 
'southern' (i.e. Cantonese) language, the two syllables' pronunciation 
is [ok-] and [naih\] respectively what is not so strikingly close to 
the word given by Dr. L. (nor to unaker itself).
BTW, if there actually were a 3rd syllable in Chinese, (UTF-8) ? k? 
could be making a lot of sense: it means 'shell', somewhat reminding me 
of the Cherokee way of processing their white clay to make it smooth, 
fine and flexible, adding ground/pounded shells to the mixture.

Dr. L. provided this additional information to me:

"I bought it from a metal detector hobbyist, who does not have interest 
in it. He has no reason to spend the effort to fake something and 
charge almost nothing for it. I went to the site and did a lot of 
research in 3 months."

Alfred


Am 10.07.2006 um 21:38 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, A.W. T?ting wrote:
>> ... He owns a Chinese medal unearthed in the East Coast area (former
>> Cherokee/Catawba territory) and is reflecting about linguistic
>> relationship of the term for 'china clay' in former southern Chinese 
>> and
>> the Native American languages respectively. ...
>
> Well, it never hurts to look, though I'd be concerned in the 
> provenance of
> his artifact.  It doesn't sound like he has any way of proving where it
> came from.  The web site is full of specifics like depth in soil and
> distance from coast, but oblivious to anything of actual archaeological
> use. (...)
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Jul 11 14:14:50 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 09:14:50 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.091450.0500.>

I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or resevoirs. They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, as most if not all of them can easily be read in Osage, Omaha, Ponca or Kaw. They are (in their Anglicized spellings from the map):

Neeskah

Neegronda

Neesopah

Neenoshe

Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are attempts at 'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or 'principle', as in "Neosho". Does anyone know how these lakes were named? It's hard to tell what precise language they are in. Osage and Kansa both reduce the Spanish loanword 'grande' to /laNdhe/ or /laNye/ through regular loss of the initial /g/, but that happened in historical times, as Dorsey still wrote a few of them a century ago. The other languages do not apparently have this Spanish word, although it may just not have been encountered by linguists. This area is pretty far west for the southern Siouan tribes to have penetrated except on hunting parties, but the Comanches borrowed 'bear' from Osage, so contact wasn't out of the question. It was just a little surprising to find these names so far afield. I'd have written one off to coincidence, but certainly not all 4.

Bob


From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 11 14:41:04 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 07:41:04 -0700
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489495@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.074104.0700.>

Osage nii + ska may also be 'water'+ 'calm, peaceful'.  

niilaaNdhe 'big water' and niisape 'black water' seem right.  

The last one could be nii-naaNz^iN with 'stand', I suppose, perhaps 'water
one can stand in', but the construction is odd. Another possibility for
neenoshe would be nii - odh?s^i with odh?s^i 'in the way, blocking, in the
middle of e.g. a road or path', with a typical n~dh variation.  
Carolyn 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:15 AM
To: Siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Colorado typonyms.

I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado
between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or resevoirs.
They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, as most if not all of them
can easily be read in Osage, Omaha, Ponca or Kaw. They are (in their
Anglicized spellings from the map):

Neeskah

Neegronda

Neesopah

Neenoshe

Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are attempts at
'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or 'principle', as in
"Neosho". Does anyone know how these lakes were named? It's hard to tell
what precise language they are in. Osage and Kansa both reduce the Spanish
loanword 'grande' to /laNdhe/ or /laNye/ through regular loss of the initial
/g/, but that happened in historical times, as Dorsey still wrote a few of
them a century ago. The other languages do not apparently have this Spanish
word, although it may just not have been encountered by linguists. This area
is pretty far west for the southern Siouan tribes to have penetrated except
on hunting parties, but the Comanches borrowed 'bear' from Osage, so contact
wasn't out of the question. It was just a little surprising to find these
names so far afield. I'd have written one off to coincidence, but certainly
not all 4.

Bob




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From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jul 11 17:44:08 2006
From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:44:08 +0100
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
In-Reply-To: <20060706211706.74498.qmail@web26805.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.184408.0100.>

 
Did anyone have any etymology for the  name Saone
applied to some Lakota bands.  I have never quite
understood the explanations of this term.  I was
reminded of it by the discussion on  s^aN and s^aaN or
s^aN ama as a name give to the Sioux. 

Bruce


	
	
		
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From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 11 20:35:39 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:35:39 -0700
Subject: Article on endangered languages
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.133539.0700.>

Thought the list might be interested in this article appearing on the Lingformant blog.  It mentions Jimm Goodtracks and Ioway-Otoe, among other endangered languages.
   
  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/nsf-nnb071006.php
   
  Dave

 			
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From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 00:30:40 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:30:40 -0700
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <FDB6CC74-2A54-4C88-878A-E8BDD81940F2@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.173040.0700.>

G'day Clive,
   
  I understand the busy!
   
  > So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? >
   
  Yes, but probably not enough to dissuade one from using it as a grammatical reference resource.  The letters are there, just without the accent marks, although this could make a difference in pronunciation and meaning.  In her grammar, the words for "black" and "thin" look the same: supi and supi.  It should really be sapi, black, and supi, thin.
   
  > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
   
  Yes, I believe aNk- is cognate with Lakhota wa-.  However, as far as I know, the Southeastern Siouan languages don't differentiate like the others I guess in the accusative/ergative sense of different pronominal forms (although I believe Tutelo may have some remnant of it).  In Biloxi, aNk- appears to be the only 1st singular pronominal, although it varies with its forms aN- and x- depending on the following sound.  Einaudi goes over most of this phonology in pretty good detail I think.
   
  > Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) >
   
  Looks like it.
   
  > Does that reply to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? >
   
  Yes, I believe so.  The 'wo' on the preceding (question) sentence is the male interrogative particle; I don't think there is one for female speech.
   
  > "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota >
   
  Yes.
   
  > Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha? >
   
  Biloxi definitely shows influence, both in vocabulary and possibly grammar, from the Muskogean languages, particularly Choctaw, with which it seemed to have the most contact.  Not sure about Tunica or Chitimacha--but then I don't have dictionaries or grammars for these.  It seems logical there would be some Tunica vocabulary in Biloxi, since they've been in a rather close relationship for many years, and indeed the Biloxi currently share their reservation in Louisiana with them.  There were also borrowings, perhaps via Mobilian Trade Jargon, from Spanish and/or French, such as the words for "coffee" kaxwi/kafi and "cow" wa(a)ka, this last also shared by at least some Muskogean languages and Cherokee.
   
  > Was [Rumsien] spoken in the Carmel area? >
   
  Yes, Monterey and Carmel, cousins of the Ohlone who inhabited the San Francisco Bay Area.  In fact, English 'abalone' apparently came from Rumsien Ohlone 'awlon' via Spanish 'abulon' (accent over the 'o').
   
  I'll look forward to your Biloxi sentences!
   
  Dave

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Dave, Sorry for taking so long to reply: I've been rather busy. Thanks for all of that wonderful information you so kindly supplied! Actually I was expecting that D-S Biloxi dictionary to be fairly difficult to use, with inconsistencies & confusions galore, not just in orthography, judging from my experiences with other dictionaries/grammars of yesteryear, like Rev. Cyrus Byington's Dictionary of Choctaw, for instance. So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? (Actually I have applied to obtain it on inter-library loan : when I do get it, & I have a clearer idea of the language's basic grammatical/syntactic structures,  I may have a go at  writing you a short letter in Biloxi.)  Thank you also for that analysis of the Biloxi sentence : most interesting. Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation
 also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? Can't think of any Lakhota analogue of "ade" ("iya/ia" [=speak]; "iyapi"[=speech, language]??). Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix), or even possibly with : "iyechinka" (adv. "of one's own accord")?? ; "-spe" seems fairly obviously a cognate of Lakhota : "(uN/oN)spe" [= to know how to..."] ; "uNsp?khiyA" [=" cause to know how to=>teach"; "uNsp?ic'iciyA" [="teach oneself=>learn"] ; with  "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota? One supposes "YaNdi" to be from same word-root as "chante" [=heart]; while "phi" [=good] might have many cognates in Lakhota : "phiic'iyA" [=to make oneself 'good'=>prepare oneself/make ready]? ; "phiya" [=to make 'good'=>to mend/repair//conjure the sick]; not to mention the many derivatives of "phila" [=to regard as 'good'=>be glad/rejoice=>be grateful/thankful]?? Does that reply
 to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? I wonder whether Biloxi had an equivalent word/phrase for "goodbye/so long/see you!" involving the equivalent of the adverb "again" &/or an indefinite adverb of time corresponding to idea of "by and by/later on/before long" etc., like Lakhota's : "toksha akhe" ?? Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha?   Thanks also for the sample of Rumsien Ohlone. Was it spoken in the Carmel area? Wonder if "Rowdy Yates" had ever heard of it? :), Best wishes, Clive.
    On 28/06/2006, at 6:10 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

    Hi Clive,
   
  > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?: another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you will have someone to write/speak to >
   
  You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user-UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a format where you can simply look up the English word and get the full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary, you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading) in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.
   
  > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically speaking? >
   
  Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade = language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye = cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."
   
  Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised grammar together along with the revised dictionary.  (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)
   
  > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey" under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok-Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter? Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >
   
  Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some propose that it includes languages all the way up into British Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do. 
   
  > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >
   
  Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French bonjour)
  How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart good?
  I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!
   
  Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!  
   
  And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in Rumsien)!
   
  Cheers,
  Dave
   
  

          

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 12 02:10:48 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:10:48 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE604489495@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.201048.0600.>

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> I was looking at a map of the Southwest and noticed that, in SE Colorado
> between the towns of Eads and Lamar there are several lakes or
> resevoirs. They seem to have names in some Dhegiha dialect, ...

Somewhere I have heard that in the days of Osage oil money some parts of
southeastern Colorado were popular with the Osage as summer vacation spots
- reached in automobiles, I gather - and for some reasons I assocate these
names with that tidbit.

FYI, see http://www.kcedf.org/demographics.htm:

> History
>
> On April 11, 1889, Colorado Governor Job A. Cooper signed a bill
> creating Kiowa County. The name was derived from the Kiowa Indians who
> hunted and lived in eastern Colorado before European's [sic] arrived.
>
> During the early settlement of Kiowa County, the naturally occurring
> Great Plains Reservoirs attracted Indians, settlers and trappers. The
> Indian named reservoirs include: Neesopah, meaning "Black Water";
> Neegronda, meaning "Big Water"; Neenoshe, meaning "Standing Water"; and
> Neeskah, meaning "Queens [sic for Queen's?] Lake". These recreational
> waters attract many people to this area today.

These placenames are glossed in Bill Bright's monumental Native American
Placenames of the United States, p, 320.  Without going into details,
David Rood, p.c., surmises NeeSkah 'white water', NeeGronda 'broad water',
NeeSopah 'entrail water', and NeeNoshe 'principle water'.

> Nee is obviously /niN/ 'river, lake'. -skah, -gronda, -sopah are
> attempts at 'white', 'big', 'black'. -(n)oshe may be 'full' or
> 'principle', as in "Neosho".

Carolyn Quintero's correction of NeeNoshe to 'Standing water' seems
plausible, given Osage phonology and the details of the transcription
apparently employed, and matches the views of the Kiowa County site cited
above.

Bob Rankin's correction of NeeSopah to 'black wate' also seems plausible
in this light, and also accords with the Kiowa County site.

NeeSkah as 'white water' seems more likely than 'Queen's Lake'.  There is,
of course, no Osage word for 'queen' sensu stricto, the concept being
entirely alien to Osage culture.

However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the sense of
the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche is z^e'ga
z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the old style
image of the queen (full torso, with very abbreviated legs below).  That
doesn't seem to help clarify the name, either.

One possiblity would be that someone named 'Queenie' in English but
(wak?o) ska or 'white (woman?)' in Osage was the namesake.

Another possobility is that the name "Queen's Lake" is simply an
alternative English-based name that has no connection with the name
NeeSkah.

> Does anyone know how these lakes were named?

Or when, for that matter.  Not a clue!

So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that I
am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'

Here's the link to MapQuest for a run between Eads and Lamar.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=NA&rsres=1&1ffi=&1l=&1g=&1pl=&1v=&1n=&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&1pn=&1a=&1c=eads&1s=CO&1z=&2pn=&2a=&2c=lamar&2s=CO&2z=&r=f


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 12 02:40:45 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:40:45 -0600
Subject: Biloxi and Proto-Siouan (Re: Yuecetu ..)
In-Reply-To: <20060712003040.12992.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUL.2006.204045.0600.>

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006, David Kaufman wrote:
>   > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota
> "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel
> "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is
> that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota
> "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
>
>   Yes, I believe aNk- is cognate with Lakhota wa-.

Actually, it is generally accepted that Biloxi (regular) first person nk
(probably */aNk/) is cognate with Dakotan uNk 'inclusive'.  There are some
additional allomorphs, as David mentions, including n- with d-stems
(*r-stems).

>   > Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-"
> (reflexive infix) >
>
>   Looks like it.

I think the resemblance is coinsidered interesting, but I'm not sure the
correspondece is regular.

===

As David says, Einaudi's expedient of phonemicizing Biloxi by lopping off
the diacritics sometimes fails!  He's been looking into the complex issue
of a vs. u, oral and nasal!  In spite of various shortcomings, Einaudi's
book is an important step beyond Dorsey & Swanton.  I'm still looking
forward to what David doing to improve on it!


From ckopris at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 17:16:27 2006
From: ckopris at yahoo.com (Craig Kopris)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:16:27 -0700
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <49ac317b0b90a1ea2df6bf584c07be82@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.101627.0700.>

As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"

Craig Kopris

--- "A.W. T?ting" <ti at fa-kuan.muc.de> wrote:

> Hello experts,
> 
> a Chinese friend of mine, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, is
> doing research on the 
> topic of pre-columbian Sino-American contacts (Zheng
> He) and only 
> recently had a series of press conference and
> lectures about Zheng He 
> and America on his tour in Hongkong. He owns a
> Chinese medal unearthed 
> in the East Coast area (former Cherokee/Catawba
> territory) and is 
> reflecting about linguistic relationship of the term
> for 'china clay' 
> in former southern Chinese and the Native American
> languages 
> respectively.
> Here's what he is stating:
> 
> "The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for 
> china clay is 
> ??unaker??, similar to what Chinese call  ???d
> ??uk-na[ke]?? in  southern 
> dialect. Is it a coincidence?   This happened before
> the arrival of the 
> Europeans.   The Chinese name uk-nake was used up to
> Ming dynasty.   It 
> was later replaced by other terms like china clay
> and kaolin.   A 
> Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might
> have brought  the 
> clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the
> porcelain gifts 
> (...)"
> 
> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
> opinions on this issue 
> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
> 
> Here's the link to further details:
> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
> 
> Thank's in advance!
> 
> Alfred 


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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 12 18:04:08 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:04:08 -0700
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607111907510.16922@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.110408.0700.>

JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the sense
of
the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche is z^e'ga
z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the old style
image of the queen (full torso, with very abbreviated legs below).  That
doesn't seem to help clarify the name, either.

CQ: I have OS 'queen of spades' as m?aNhisi (or m?ahisu) wak'? ks^e, [spade
woman LYING] [LF,RB,FH].  
For 'queen' alone, just wak'?.
For 'female chief': wak'? kahike [<LF, PM] 

CQ: Certainly ska 'white' is valid in Osage, but the 'clear' meaning should
not be discarded easily.  I guess it would depend on the water; was it
whitish? or was it clear?
CQ: n?i sk?  OR n?i sk?ha 'clear water'; also ?e ska  'speak clearly';
skaska' dhe 'peaceful, calm, tranquil' as a lake.  

CQ: nii sape 'black water' would be the Osage form (sape 'black', not *sapa
'black').

CQ:  I think in Osage, both nii 'water' and laaNdhe 'big' have long vowels.
Also 'stand': naaNziN (with long a-nasal)

.............
So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that I
am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'

Here's the link to MapQuest for a run between Eads and Lamar.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=N
A&rsres=1&1ffi=&1l=&1g=&1pl=&1v=&1n=&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&1pn=&1a=&1c=
eads&1s=CO&1z=&2pn=&2a=&2c=lamar&2s=CO&2z=&r=f




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From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 12 18:07:14 2006
From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:07:14 -0700
Subject: Colorado toponyms
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.110714.0700.>

I forgot to mention another 'clear' expression in Osage:

naaN' ghe ska 'clear spirit, i.e. sober'

Carolyn


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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul 12 20:06:21 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:06:21 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.150621.0500.>

Minor corrections only.

> NeeGronda = niN graNce (newer pronunciation niN laNce) 'big water'
   (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V)
 
laNdhe rather than with /c/.

> NeeSopah = niN sapa 'black water'
 
sape, rather than with /a/.

> NeeNoshe = niN naNz^iN 'standing water'
> NeeSkah = niN ska 'white water'


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Wed Jul 12 20:15:05 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:15:05 +1000
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
In-Reply-To: <20060711174408.86727.qmail@web26812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.061505.1000.>

Hello Bruce, Tonikhetu hwo? Le anpetu ki mish lila matanyan. See 1999  
discussion of this topic on this list: [S^ahaN as 'Sioux'], between  
A.H. Hartley (20 Aug.1999, 20:25), and J.E.Koontz (20 Aug 11:41; 21  
Aug 15:56). Toksha akhe, Clive. P.S. Could circumflex be just  
"hypercorrection" from people who know of French river? Tuppence  
ha'penny worth from me :).
On 12/07/2006, at 3:44 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote:

>
> Did anyone have any etymology for the  name Saone
> applied to some Lakota bands.  I have never quite
> understood the explanations of this term.  I was
> reminded of it by the discussion on  s^aN and s^aaN or
> s^aN ama as a name give to the Sioux.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> 	
> 	
> 		
> ___________________________________________________________
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its  
> simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Jul 12 20:21:46 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:21:46 -0500
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.152146.0500.>

> Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >
 
No, common Siouan /wa-/ disappeared in Biloxi.  Dorsey's "nk-" is probably [nasal schwa][k] and is thus a reflex of the 1st plural prefix in Dakota and other languages.  In other words, the way you say "I" in Biloxi is to say "we".  
 
> Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) 
 
Biloxi reflexive is ixki-/iNxki-, with cognates across Siouan.
 
Bob


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 12 22:21:19 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:21:19 -0700
Subject: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE60448949B@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUL.2006.152119.0700.>

Ooops, did I get that wrong on the email?  That's what I get for trying to do these things at work!  (I'm glad it's almost over!)
   
  Dave

"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
  > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also? Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >

No, common Siouan /wa-/ disappeared in Biloxi. Dorsey's "nk-" is probably [nasal schwa][k] and is thus a reflex of the 1st plural prefix in Dakota and other languages. In other words, the way you say "I" in Biloxi is to say "we". 

> Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) 

Biloxi reflexive is ixki-/iNxki-, with cognates across Siouan.

Bob


 		
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 13 07:52:53 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:52:53 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <20060712171627.46129.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.095253.0200.>

Craig,
thanks a lot for your valuable input.
This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative 
expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported, since 
terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from foreign 
languages.

Any further contributions to this issue are highly appreciated.

Alfred


Am 12.07.2006 um 19:16 schrieb Craig Kopris:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
> according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
> dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"
>
> Craig Kopris
>>
>> (...)"
>>
>> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
>> opinions on this issue
>> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
>>
>> Here's the link to further details:
>> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
>>
>> Thank's in advance!
>>
>> Alfred
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:12:46 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:12:46 -0600
Subject: Colorado toponyms
In-Reply-To: <000d01c6a5de$016cd430$0202a8c0@Latitude>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.021246.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> I forgot to mention another 'clear' expression in Osage:
>
> naaN' ghe ska 'clear spirit, i.e. sober'

Isn't this morphologically naNaN'ghe + ska, cf. OP naN(aN)ghi 'ghost,
spirit'.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:09:00 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:09:00 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <20060712171627.46129.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.020900.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Craig Kopris wrote:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned, according to Pulte &
> Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for
> "white"

That sounds like it might work as the source of the English terms.  I'll
discard the "Chinese textual source" hypothesis.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:27:23 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:27:23 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <000c01c6a5dd$92e38ea0$0202a8c0@Latitude>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.022723.0600.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the
> sense of the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche
> is z^e'ga z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the
> old style image of the queen ...

I haven't found the OP term, so I can't tell if this is an OP-ism.

> CQ: I have OS 'queen of spades' as m?aNhisi (or m?ahisu) wak'? ks^e, [spade
> woman LYING] [LF,RB,FH].
> For 'queen' alone, just wak'?.

Referring to the face card?

> For 'female chief': wak'? kahike [<LF, PM]

Along the same lines, Swetland gives mi gahi 'female leader'.  But I'm not
sure if the concept applies except to translate European conceptions.

> CQ: Certainly ska 'white' is valid in Osage, but the 'clear' meaning should
> not be discarded easily.  I guess it would depend on the water; was it
> whitish? or was it clear?

I would guess clear.  I didn't mean to reject the reading clear.

> CQ: nii sape 'black water' would be the Osage form (sape 'black', not *sapa
> 'black').

Oops.  My error.  OP sabe, etc.
>
> CQ:  I think in Osage, both nii 'water' and laaNdhe 'big' have long vowels.
> Also 'stand': naaNziN (with long a-nasal)

Sorry - I'm not being consistant about long vowels yet.

> So, employing the awkward "NetSiouan" transcription for ASCII mail that
> I am still using, I make the names:

NeeGronda = niNiN graNaNdhe (newer pronunciation niNiN laNaNdhe)
  'big water'  (c = ts; VN = nasalized vowel V; dh = English th in that)
NeeSopah = niNiN saape 'black water'
   (z^ = z-hacek = the z of azure)
NeeNoshe = niNiN naNaNz^iN 'standing water'
NeeSkah = niNiN skaa 'clear water'

niNiN might be better as 'lake' than as 'water'


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:39:36 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:39:36 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <9c7d5871032a36748becbc9a526729ca@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.023936.0600.>

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
> This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
> expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported,

Yes.  It would be a Cherokee loan in English, I guess!

> since terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from
> foreign languages.

I don't know if I'd go along with this, however, although I don't believe
it was being suggested that Cherokee had borrwed a color term.

Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.

Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable in
Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so.

Or consider that Dakota has two terms for 'red', neither of which is
cognate with the usual terms in the rest of MVS.

For that matter, several of the MVS color terms have resemblants in
Uto-Aztecan, though it's hard to know what to make of that.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Thu Jul 13 08:41:29 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:41:29 -0600
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607130213010.124@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.024129.0600.>

Er - make that toponyms!


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 13 10:22:35 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:22:35 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607130229050.124@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.122235.0200.>

John,
thanks for your answer.
I actually was a bit hesitant about the 'colour' issue somewhat 
expecting your objections ;-) yet, I don't think that - within a 
certain period of time according to our context here - there are 
peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic colours so 
there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g. like 
Chinese). This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't change 
within one language or related languages.

 >  Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.  <

This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc., 
maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

 >  Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable 
in Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so. <

My point wasn't that they aren't underlying changes, the more when new 
(daughter) languages are forming out (of certain dialects, military 
jargons etc.). One example I have in mind is Romanian 
_albastru/albastr?_ for 'blue', or Spanish _colorado_, _tinto_ for 
'red'.

BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs. 
su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

For who's interested in, here's a Cherokee word list online:
http://www.wehali.com/tsalagi/index.cfm

Alfred


Am 13.07.2006 um 10:39 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
>> This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
>> expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported,
>
> Yes.  It would be a Cherokee loan in English, I guess!
>
>> since terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from
>> foreign languages.
>
> I don't know if I'd go along with this, however, although I don't 
> believe
> it was being suggested that Cherokee had borrwed a color term.
>
> Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.
>
> Or consider that terms for 'white' have not been particularly stable in
> Italic/Romance languages over the past 2000 years or so.
>
> Or consider that Dakota has two terms for 'red', neither of which is
> cognate with the usual terms in the rest of MVS.
>
> For that matter, several of the MVS color terms have resemblants in
> Uto-Aztecan, though it's hard to know what to make of that.
>
>
>


From tmleonard at cox.net  Thu Jul 13 14:26:20 2006
From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:26:20 -0500
Subject: Colorado typonyms.
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.092620.0500.>

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote:
> JK: However, most Siouan languages do have a word for 'queen' in the
> sense of the queen ina deckof cards.  The Osage expression per LaFlesche
> is z^e'ga z^iNga 'little leg(s)' which he explains as referring to the
> old style image of the queen ...

>>>I haven't found the OP term, so I can't tell if this is an OP-ism.

The only Ponca term that I am aware of for "queen" in a deck of cards is:
wa'u z^iNga (old woman)


From rankin at ku.edu  Thu Jul 13 15:03:52 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:03:52 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUL.2006.100352.0500.>

I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's natural resources.  The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three syllables.  I never thought more about it until this thread.  I guess it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English.  I have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in Chinese?  I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of A.W. T?ting
Sent: Thu 7/13/2006 2:52 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Cc: A.W. T?ting
Subject: Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay'



Craig,
thanks a lot for your valuable input.
This makes a lot of sense to me. So it seems that my tentative
expectation that unaker is not a Chinese loan might be supported, since
terms for 'main' colours (like white) seldom are adopted from foreign
languages.

Any further contributions to this issue are highly appreciated.

Alfred


Am 12.07.2006 um 19:16 schrieb Craig Kopris:

> As far as attested Cherokee terms are concerned,
> according to Pulte & Feeling's 1975 Cheroke-English
> dictionary, 'unega' is Cherokee for "white"
>
> Craig Kopris
>>
>> (...)"
>>
>> I'm quite skeptical and would like to hear your
>> opinions on this issue
>> as far as linguistic aspects are involved.
>>
>> Here's the link to further details:
>> http://www.asiawind.com/zhenghe/
>>
>> Thank's in advance!
>>
>> Alfred
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/> 
>


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Thu Jul 13 21:29:02 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:29:02 +1000
Subject: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.072902.1000.>

In BAE-AR (15:205-244) 1893-94, a posthumous paper entitled "Siouan  
Sociology" by James Owen DORSEY(1848-95), he had the following to  
say, in his section on the "gentes" of the Lower Yanktonai, or  
HuNkpatina (Page 218) (in a listing of 7 gens  
names) :                                                                 
                                                                         
                                                                "4,  
SaN-ona (SaN-ona [spelled with Riggsean angma]) Shot-at-some-white- 
object; this name originated FROM KILLING AN ALBINO BUFFALO ; A  
HUNKPAPA CHIEF SAID THAT REFUGEES OR STRANGERS FROM ANOTHER TRIBE  
WERE SO CALLED." (My  
capitals).                                                               
                                                                         
                   Incidentally, Dorsey's paper is preceeded by a  
poignant brief commemorative/biographical note, recording his career  
achievements & early death at age 47, of typhoid fever, in  
Washington, on Feb.4, 1895, penned by one "W.J.M." Could that be  
Washington Matthews (1842-1905) of Hidatsa Grammar & Dictionary fame?  
Regards to all, Clive Bloomfield. 


From cbloom at ozemail.com.au  Thu Jul 13 22:37:47 2006
From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:37:47 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.083747.1000.>

Don't think this message got through, the first time, for some reason.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au>
> Date: 14 July 2006 7:29:02 AM
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: Saone with circumflex over the -o-
>
> In BAE-AR (15:205-244) 1893-94, a posthumous paper entitled "Siouan  
> Sociology" by James Owen DORSEY(1848-95), he had the following to  
> say, in his section on the "gentes" of the Lower Yanktonai, or  
> HuNkpatina (Page 218) (in a listing of 7 gens  
> names) :                                                               
>                                                                        
>                                                                    
> "4, SaN-ona (SaN-ona [spelled with Riggsean angma]) Shot-at-some- 
> white-object; this name originated FROM KILLING AN ALBINO BUFFALO ;  
> A HUNKPAPA CHIEF SAID THAT REFUGEES OR STRANGERS FROM ANOTHER TRIBE  
> WERE SO CALLED." (My  
> capitals).                                                             
>                                                                        
>                      Incidentally, Dorsey's paper is preceeded by a  
> poignant brief commemorative/biographical note, recording his  
> career achievements & early death at age 47, of typhoid fever, in  
> Washington, on Feb.4, 1895, penned by one "W.J.M." Could that be  
> Washington Matthews (1842-1905) of Hidatsa Grammar & Dictionary  
> fame? Regards to all, Clive Bloomfield.

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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Fri Jul 14 06:20:56 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:20:56 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894A2@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUL.2006.082056.0200.>

Bob,
this is what I've come up with:

kaolin
"china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese Kao-ling, 
transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China (near which 
it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling "mountain, 
hill."

I think that the 'French' term kaolin came back into Chinese what is 
gao1 ling3 (tu3) in Pinyin romanization (lit.: earth from Gaoling 
mountain); gao ling is "high mountain range"
UTF-8 ??(?); another term for kaolin is tao2tu3 ??  (lit.: pottery 
earth). Another term is bai2 tu3 ?? (lit.: white earth).

Alfred

Am 13.07.2006 um 17:03 schrieb Rankin, Robert L:

> I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High 
> School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's 
> natural resources.  The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three 
> syllables.  I never thought more about it until this thread.  I guess 
> it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English.  I 
> have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in 
> Chinese?  I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones.

> Bob
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Jul 15 16:18:12 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 11:18:12 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.111812.0500.>

Thanks, that's a lot better than my dictionary had.   Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of A.W. T?ting
Sent: Fri 7/14/2006 1:20 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Cc: A.W. T?ting
Subject: Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay'


Bob, 
this is what I've come up with: 

kaolin 
"china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese Kao-ling, transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China (near which it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling "mountain, hill." 

I think that the 'French' term kaolin came back into Chinese what is gao1 ling3 (tu3) in Pinyin romanization (lit.: earth from Gaoling mountain); gao ling is "high mountain range" 
UTF-8 ??(?); another term for kaolin is tao2tu3 ?? (lit.: pottery earth). Another term is bai2 tu3 ?? (lit.: white earth). 

Alfred 

Am 13.07.2006 um 17:03 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: 


	I had to take a class in "Georgia History" when I was in Junior High School and learned that kaolin (white clay) was one of Georgia's natural resources. The teacher pronounced in [ke:olin] -- three syllables. I never thought more about it until this thread. I guess it's pretty clear that kaolin is a Chinese loanword in English. I have missed part of this discussion -- what does kao lin mean in Chinese? I assume it's pronounced [kaw lin] plus tones. 


	Bob 


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul 15 20:06:25 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:06:25 -0600
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <59e6f601f69957013712d88a17ab7019@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.140625.0600.>

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
> kaolin "china clay," 1727, from Fr. kaolin (1712), from Chinese
> Kao-ling, transliteration of the name of a mountain in Jiangxi, China
> (near which it was originally dug up), from Chinese gao "high" + ling
> "mountain, hill."

Bob's pronunciation is what my cousin in Wyoming used, allowing for
English dialects.  I can't remember where he stressed it.  Initially in
think.

What about the other term - the u(k)na[ke] one?  Any evidence it was ever
used in the early ceramics trade?  I suppose we might want to consider
"coincidences" noticed by early investigators.  I recall one of the French
explorers being lambasted by a later scholar for claiming that the Dakota
word for "Sun" was "Louis."  He was more or less, right, of course.


From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Sat Jul 15 19:59:22 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:59:22 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <54a68de82d0b3370ea5494babc65be57@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.135922.0600.>

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
> colours ...

I'm not sure where we are on the corrections of, revisions to, and
rejections of the Berlin & Kay color typology, but they suggested that
there was a hierarchy of sorts or set of attested states, in color
systems, ranging from two-color ('dark' and 'light') systems, to more
elaborate ones.

Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 'red',
'yellow', 'grue'.  In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which is,
I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can happen,
there should be a division of 'grue' to 'blue' and 'green', and a specific
'brown' term.  However, I've seen an article suggesting that there are
systems that augment the five-color system above with a 'wild color' term
that applies to obscure or muted colors in the 'gray', 'brown', 'violet'
range.  The author cited examples in Africa and North America.  I don't
recall the reference, and I'm trying to free up the computer for my
daughter, so I'll postpone the reference.  The North American example was
an Apachean langauge, not a Siouan one.  I had never seen Siouan 'gray'
terms applied to violet, but a little looking turned up a Dhegiha gloss
consistent with this.

> so there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g.
> like Chinese).  This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't
> change within one language or related languages.

For example, by coinages.  For example, most Siouan languages now have
distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'.  In Omaha-Ponca I've seen one
approach that uses ttu 'grue' for 'blue' and ppez^ettu 'grass grue' for
'green' - I think this is the current Omaha pattern - and another -
offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think - that uses ttu 'grue' for
'green' and ttu sabe 'dark grue' for 'blue'.

>  >  Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu.  <
>
> This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc.,
> maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

Yes - my point was that French has borrowed a Germanic form.

> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa?  The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. s^apa
alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan.  I
don't know if they play out in exactly the eame way in each language or
how far this goes into other branches of Siouan.  I've sometimes thought
that perhaps it was just a case of having distinct terms for 'dark' and
'light' (or 'pale') on the one hand (s^abe and saN in OP) and for 'black'
and 'white' (or 'clear!  :-)) on the other (sabe and ska in OP).

The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' scheme
for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to pursue
sometime!  I think some of the oddities must be standard 'anthropological
(or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of the
(mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, and
so on.

Somewhat far afield, 'second dative' for the kic^i- forms in Dakota seems
to have been coined by Dorsey.


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 16 05:56:49 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 22:56:49 -0700
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151330020.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUL.2006.225649.0700.>

> most Siouan languages now have distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'. >
   
  Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess, thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.
   
  Dave

Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote:
  On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
> colours ...

I'm not sure where we are on the corrections of, revisions to, and
rejections of the Berlin & Kay color typology, but they suggested that
there was a hierarchy of sorts or set of attested states, in color
systems, ranging from two-color ('dark' and 'light') systems, to more
elaborate ones.

Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 'red',
'yellow', 'grue'. In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which is,
I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can happen,
there should be a division of 'grue' to 'blue' and 'green', and a specific
'brown' term. However, I've seen an article suggesting that there are
systems that augment the five-color system above with a 'wild color' term
that applies to obscure or muted colors in the 'gray', 'brown', 'violet'
range. The author cited examples in Africa and North America. I don't
recall the reference, and I'm trying to free up the computer for my
daughter, so I'll postpone the reference. The North American example was
an Apachean langauge, not a Siouan one. I had never seen Siouan 'gray'
terms applied to violet, but a little looking turned up a Dhegiha gloss
consistent with this.

> so there'd be need for loans from a totally different language (e.g.
> like Chinese). This, of course, doesn't mean that such terms don't
> change within one language or related languages.

For example, by coinages. For example, most Siouan languages now have
distinct expressions for 'blue and 'green'. In Omaha-Ponca I've seen one
approach that uses ttu 'grue' for 'blue' and ppez^ettu 'grass grue' for
'green' - I think this is the current Omaha pattern - and another -
offered by Fletcher & LaFlesche, I think - that uses ttu 'grue' for
'green' and ttu sabe 'dark grue' for 'blue'.

> > Consider German blau, English blue, French bleu. <
>
> This goes back to mhg. bla(wes), ohg. and os. blao, g. blewa etc.,
> maybe even l. flavus (cf. kymr. blawr).

Yes - my point was that French has borrowed a Germanic form.

> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).

Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa? The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. s^apa
alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan. I
don't know if they play out in exactly the eame way in each language or
how far this goes into other branches of Siouan. I've sometimes thought
that perhaps it was just a case of having distinct terms for 'dark' and
'light' (or 'pale') on the one hand (s^abe and saN in OP) and for 'black'
and 'white' (or 'clear! :-)) on the other (sabe and ska in OP).

The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' scheme
for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to pursue
sometime! I think some of the oddities must be standard 'anthropological
(or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of the
(mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, and
so on.

Somewhat far afield, 'second dative' for the kic^i- forms in Dakota seems
to have been coined by Dorsey.





 		
---------------------------------
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 09:30:07 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:30:07 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151402140.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.113007.0200.>

My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do 
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally 
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).
I'd like to summarize what are my tentative conclusions so far (plz 
correct/object etc. if necessary!):
(the following is a quote from my response to Dr. SLL)

  I'd state (as pretty obvious)

  1)
  that the American term 'unaker' (as a denotation of 'Kaolin' or 'white 
clay') has to do with Unaker Mt. (obviously the place of this natural 
resource in the US).

  2)
  This place seems to be located in North Carolina (having to do with 
peoples (once) living there, e.g. the Cherokee).

  3)
  The term 'unaker' seems to be based on the Cherokee word for the 
colour 'white', i.e. _unega_ or _yonega_ (the American spelling of [g] 
given as /k/ and the schwa-like [a] spelled as /e(r)/ seems very common 
(as - partly - pointed out already): in Native American tongues, 
consonants very often can have several different pronunciations, e.g. 
in Lakota, the consonant /k/ has three distinct pronunciations, namely 
[k], [kh] and [kx] which means that only [k] is unaspirated, hence - 
according to the different orthographic ways - often are written as 
/g/. This 'hard' (unaspirated) consonant doesn't exist in English 
except if NOT intervocalic. This also holds for Cherokee /g/ (a 
voiceless but unaspirated consonant that speakers of English actually 
'hear' as [k]). The English way to give it as /k/ is misleading.

  4)
  What IMO is highly doubtful here is the crucial question of whether or 
not the Cherokee term for the (basic) colour 'white' is a loan word 
from a southern-chinese dialect. Colour words can undergo changes 
within one language or within related languages (e.g. the different 
words for 'blue' or 'red' in Romance languages e.g. 'blu'/'azurro', 
'azul', 'bleu'... but 'albastru/albastr?' in Romanian). But I don't 
think that one would take a term for it from a so distant language as 
Chinese. (This wouldn't hold for a very special foreign pigment or dyer 
like indigo ? lan2? that even is a loan word in Chinese.)

(...)

  As far as I can state in the moment, the final -r (of unaker) might be 
due to a - former - special way of notation by earlier linguists in 
order to indicate that the preceding vowel has to be pronounced.
  I'd tend to assume that the word 'unaker' might derive from an 
original Native American term only coincidentally (and quite vaguely!) 
of somewhat similar sound(?)/spelling(?) to that obscure 'southern 
Chinese' word given by SL. ?? (e4 ni2) as such doesn't appear to exist 
in modern Chinese language(s) - the consisting parts of it would be 
pronounced in - at least - one 'southern' (i.e. Cantonese) language, 
[ok-] and [naih\] respectively what is not so strikingly close to the 
term mentioned.


Up to the moment, my friend didn't provide the 3rd word/syllable in 
Chinese character (telling - as far as I could grasp his idea - that 
this ending '-ke' was a pecularity of southern dialects, i.e. 
Cantonese, Hakka or Jiangxi).
I had a pretty vague idea to support his assumption: had the 3rd word 
actually been ? ke2 (shell), this word could have indicated the special 
Cherokee way of processing white clay adding ground shells to the 
mixture to make it fine and flexible. This word is pronounced hok_ in 
Cantonese (and also in Hakka or Jiangxi) so there would not be a 
similar sound to '-ga' (of Cherokee unega).

Alfred

(for the Chinese characters' correct display, plz switch to UTF-8 
encoding)


Am 15.07.2006 um 22:06 schrieb Koontz John E:

> What about the other term - the u(k)na[ke] one?  Any evidence it was 
> ever
> used in the early ceramics trade?  I suppose we might want to consider
> "coincidences" noticed by early investigators.
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 09:46:28 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:46:28 +0200
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607151330020.11150@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.114628.0200.>


Am 15.07.2006 um 21:59 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
>> .. there are peoples with languages actually lacking words for basic
>> colours ...
>
> (...) Siouan languages are mostly of the sort with 'black', 'white', 
> 'red',
> 'yellow', 'grue'.  In addition that usually distinguish 'gray', which 
> is,
> I think, somewhat unusual, because theoretically before this can 
> happen,
> there should be a division of 'grue' (...)


Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)


>> BTW, Lakota _ska_ vs. _saN_ somehow is 'mirrored' in Chinese bai2 vs.
>> su4 (the latter meaning 'natural white', plain, vegetarian).
>
> Is there a mirror for sapa vs. s^apa?  The ska vs. saN and sapa vs. 
> s^apa
> alternations are more or less general in Mississippi Valley Siouan. 
> (...)


I don't think so (i.e. in Chinese). All I can think of is the colour ? 
qing1 which can be green, blue or black. IMO, a better 
definition/designation would be 'colour of nature': going together with 
'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It 
doesn't really stand for 'black' but for a deep greyish violet or such.


> The history of the 'black/white close up/at a distance' approach to
> glossing Siouan color terms, like the 'travel to/arrive at here/there'
> scheme for glossing verbs of motion, and the 'this', 'that', 'yon' 
> scheme
> for glossing demonstratives, etc., might be an interesting thing to 
> pursue
> sometime!  I think some of the oddities must be standard 
> 'anthropological
> (or linguistic) English', but some may be institutionalized usages of 
> the
> (mostly metis) interpreters of the 1800s, or traces of sign language, 
> and
> so on.

Very interesting!!


Alfred
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Jul 16 14:03:12 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:03:12 +0100
Subject: color terms
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.150312.0100.>

As I understand it, Cherokee /yonega/ is also used as the term for
'white man' and is the term used for 'English' on the front cover of
Feeling and Pulte's Cherokee-English Dictionary.  I've seen the form
'yowanega', too - is that plural?  (My knowledge of Cherokee is less
than a smattering.)

Most varieties of Chinese I know about have pai/pak for 'white'.

Not only Romance languages have borrowed basic color terms (though
hthey do seem to have shed a lot of the earlier Latin terminology; a
similar fate befell cardinal direction terms); Armernian took 'black'
and 'white' from Parthian.  

Anthony
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Sun Jul 16 15:42:09 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:42:09 +0200
Subject: color terms
In-Reply-To: <44BA5530020000A600000760@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUL.2006.174209.0200.>


Am 16.07.2006 um 16:03 schrieb Anthony Grant:

> As I understand it, Cherokee /yonega/ is also used as the term for
> 'white man' and is the term used for 'English' on the front cover of
> Feeling and Pulte's Cherokee-English Dictionary.  I've seen the form
> 'yowanega', too - is that plural?  (My knowledge of Cherokee is less
> than a smattering.)

'yo-wa-nega' might be "I'm a white man" (??) cf. Lakota 'maska' (I'm 
white) fr. 'sk?' (to be white) or 'wa-ma-sicun' (I'm a white man) fr. 
wasicun [was^i'cun].


> Most varieties of Chinese I know about have pai/pak for 'white'.

These are just different dialects or romanizations respectively for the 
same word ? (white, clear, understandable, wrong - of a written 
character):
Pinyin bai2,
Wade-Giles pai,
Cantonese baahk_

BTW, as for John's remarks on sapA vs. s^apA (the latter: dirty, 
blackened, defiled): I also found Lakota 'sk?' vs. sk?kA (the latter 
meaning: doubtfully white or grey, as a house seen from a 
distance(sic!) ).

Alfred
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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Mon Jul 17 10:33:10 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 04:33:10 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <1dd595905b92a6752d8bef5a6e664c1a@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.043310.0600.>

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
> Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)

'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
'green' ranges.

> ... going together with 'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with
> 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It doesn't really stand for 'black'
> but for a deep greyish violet or such.

It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Mon Jul 17 17:46:33 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:46:33 +0200
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607170430380.13722@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.194633.0200.>


Am 17.07.2006 um 12:33 schrieb Koontz John E:

> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
>> Oh, I see, you're NOT referring to grue (grue + t etc.) ;-)
>
> 'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
> 'green' ranges.
>
>> ... going together with 'sky', qing is 'blue/azure', with
>> 'hill/mountain' it's 'green' etc. It doesn't really stand for 'black'
>> but for a deep greyish violet or such.
>
> It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.


John,

> 'Grue' is the invented word for a color term that covers the 'blue' and
> 'green' ranges.

Yes, but there's a still more sophisticated use of 'grue' (i.e. with 
t=time involved), so I was a bit puzzled at first glance :)

> It sounds bit like OP xude (Da xota) in the last instance.

Would you plz tell me more about this use of 'grey'?

BTW, colours (and especially qing1 se4) are a vast field for 
discussion. I'd recommend to visit this interesting discussion on a 
Cantonese board here

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,8335,8335

on the different shades of qing (including the colour of deep black 
e.g. black eyes, black hair ?? xuanqing, ?? qing si (lit.: black silk); 
this term also referring to shredded green plums used in pastries). 
Anyway, although being quite exaustive, the thread doesn't cover all 
shades of qing :)

Alfred
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From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 18:15:48 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:15:48 -0500
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <a4a13b64a9cd76de5faca4ed8a80aae6@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.131548.0500.>

Alfred wrote:
> My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).

Alfred, before we write these words off as coincidence, can we confirm that
the southern Chinese u(k)na(ke) word existed prior to the Ming naval
expeditions?  (Just to make sure that the borrowing was not in the other
direction.)

Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 19:04:07 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:04:07 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <20060716055649.7392.qmail@web53815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.140407.0500.>

Dave wrote:
> Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.

These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
aren't they?  This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
of new words.  The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive.  So did
Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?

For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN.  In Dorsey, I
believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'.  But in modern Omaha, our
speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
u'udaN.  We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
'handsome'.  Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.

I would understand the Ofo set described as:

  ithohi - grue (standard term)  'blue'

  itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form)  'green'

The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
'green'.  We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for
'unripe'.

Rory


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Jul 17 19:53:14 2006
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:53:14 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <OF4CF61AED.6A445547-ON862571AE.0065158F-862571AE.0067593E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.135314.0600.>

I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody 
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in 
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in 
diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also 
a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child, 
or such.

Mary

At 01:04 PM 7/17/2006, you wrote:
>Dave wrote:
> > Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
>thohi.  But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
>separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
>the latter.  I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
>while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
>think?  It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
>different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
>color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.
>
>These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
>aren't they?  This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
>John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
>of new words.  The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
>the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive.  So did
>Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?
>
>For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN.  In Dorsey, I
>believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'.  But in modern Omaha, our
>speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
>u'udaN.  We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
>actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
>'handsome'.  Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.
>
>I would understand the Ofo set described as:
>
>   ithohi - grue (standard term)  'blue'
>
>   itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form)  'green'
>
>The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
>of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
>they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
>'green'.  We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
>'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for
>'unripe'.
>
>Rory


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Mon Jul 17 20:09:19 2006
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:09:19 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20060717134146.01ef7ea8@sask.usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.150919.0500.>

Mary wrote:
> I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in

diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also

a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
or such.

Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
Does Dakotan also have it?

Rory


From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Jul 17 21:58:58 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:58:58 -0500
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.165858.0500.>

You might want to go back to the 20's or 30's and read Sapir's article on size/sound symbolism in one of the psychology journals; I don't have the ref. right now.  Stanley Newman may have had a similar article, and some of Greenberg's typology students have written about it in the Stanford Working Papers on Linguistic Universals back in the '70's or '80's.  Basically higher, fronter vocoids were associated with 'small, angular, feminine, etc.' while lower, backer vowels were associated with 'blunt, large, masc., etc.' pretty much worldwide.  Consonants share these semantic associations with acute consonants giving the 'sharp, bright, small, feminine' readings and grave consonants the opposed affective meanings.  It's interesting stuff.  Of course such things have been known, more or less, since the time of Aristotle and gave rise to the natural vs. conventional theories of language in ancient times.  It doesn't pay to take it to extremes, but these are interesting phonological/psychological properties.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 3:09 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')



Mary wrote:
> I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in

diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also

a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
or such.

Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
Does Dakotan also have it?

Rory


From mary.marino at usask.ca  Mon Jul 17 23:48:57 2006
From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:48:57 -0600
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894B2@MAILBOXSIX.home.k u.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.174857.0600.>

Bob is right; this literature is interesting and probably relevant to the 
features we're discussing.  But when you consider that "consonantal 
symbolism" is (or was) systematized in Siouan in both plain and glottalized 
spirant series, and was productive in the lexicons of many (most?) of these 
languages, the linguistic universal explanation seems more like a "Just So" 
story and less like any sort of historical argument.  I have never found 
the semantic side of this argument terribly convincing, either.  (Look at 
some of the sets recorded for Hocank by Susman, and for Dakotan in the 
various dictionaries.)  As for Cree, sure, a puppy is a little dog - no 
problem there.  But where does the "pitiful" and "compassionate" part come 
in?  Wesahkecahk sometimes talks this way in the stories, and Cree speakers 
say that it sounds "pitiful" (See Wolfart in HNAI, 17, 434).  Cree speakers 
have told me that it is appropriate to use the palatalized "compassionate" 
style with some interlocutors, but not others.  It seems to me that these 
phenomena are specific linguistic features which can function in different 
ways in the lexicons and speech styles of the various languages in which 
they are noted, and that, as such, they can be studied the same way we look 
at other linguistic features.

Mary

At 03:58 PM 7/17/2006, you wrote:
>You might want to go back to the 20's or 30's and read Sapir's article on 
>size/sound symbolism in one of the psychology journals; I don't have the 
>ref. right now.  Stanley Newman may have had a similar article, and some 
>of Greenberg's typology students have written about it in the Stanford 
>Working Papers on Linguistic Universals back in the '70's or 
>'80's.  Basically higher, fronter vocoids were associated with 'small, 
>angular, feminine, etc.' while lower, backer vowels were associated with 
>'blunt, large, masc., etc.' pretty much worldwide.  Consonants share these 
>semantic associations with acute consonants giving the 'sharp, bright, 
>small, feminine' readings and grave consonants the opposed affective 
>meanings.  It's interesting stuff.  Of course such things have been known, 
>more or less, since the time of Aristotle and gave rise to the natural vs. 
>conventional theories of language in ancient times.  It doesn't pay to 
>take it to extremes, but these are interesting phonological/psychological 
>properties.
>
>Bob
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson
>Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 3:09 PM
>To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>Subject: Re: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
>
>
>
>Mary wrote:
> > I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so maybe somebody
>has already pointed this out, but there is a closely similar process in
>Cree (and maybe other Algonquian languages?) - t palatalized to c occurs in
>
>diminutive word-formation; e.g. atim 'dog', acimosis 'puppy'.  This is also
>
>a feature of "compassionate" speech, when one is speaking to a sick child,
>or such.
>
>Interesting!  I wonder how widespread this process is in North America.
>Does Dakotan also have it?
>
>Rory
>
>
>


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 18 05:56:13 2006
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:56:13 -0700
Subject: Color Terms (Re: Cherokee term for 'china clay')
In-Reply-To: <OF4CF61AED.6A445547-ON862571AE.0065158F-862571AE.0067593E@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUL.2006.225613.0700.>

> We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries, 'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term.  It may also stand for 'unripe'. >
   
  You're right about thohi also being used for 'unripe'.  At this point I'm really not aware of a "diminutive" consonant alternation in Biloxi, although I'm sure it's quite possible as you suggest.  In fact, I don't think I've yet come across any type of diminutive suffix in Biloxi; usually it seems yiNki 'little/small' is used, as in coNki 'dog' and coNki yiNki 'puppy' (little dog).
   
  Dave


Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
  Dave wrote:
> Biloxi seems to retain only one term for a bluish-green hue, I guess,
thohi. But what I find interesting is that its close cousin Ofo has two
separate words for blue and green: ithohi for the former and itchohi for
the latter. I'm not sure if this implies that Ofo innovated separate words
while Biloxi retained just the one, but that seems the most logical I
think? It seems more logical for a language to develop differing words for
different colors to be more specific rather than two originally separate
color terms having been collapsed into one in Biloxi.

These two are originally just pronunciation variants of the same word,
aren't they? This looks exactly like the 'Grandmother speech' usage that
John has described for Omaha, a 'baby talk' convention that is productive
of new words. The rule is simply to change all dental/alveolar stops to
the corresponding palatal affricates to get a sort of diminutive. So did
Biloxi and Ofo have this rule too?

For example, in Omaha, the basic word for 'good' is u'udaN. In Dorsey, I
believe this word is also used for 'beautiful'. But in modern Omaha, our
speakers have assured us that the word for 'beautiful' is u'udjaN, not
u'udaN. We just learned the other day in Macy, however, that u'udaN can
actually be used in the 'good-looking' sense for young men: i.e.
'handsome'. Girls are u'udjaN, 'pretty'.

I would understand the Ofo set described as:

ithohi - grue (standard term) 'blue'

itchohi - (cute widdle) gwue (the diminutive form) 'green'

The thohi term might be the only one recorded for Biloxi, but if this sort
of relationship was possible I think it would be hard to determine that
they didn't use tchohi as an alternate if they really wanted to specify
'green'. We should also note that in the Ofo and Biloxi dictionaries,
'green' is not necessarily strictly a color term. It may also stand for
'unripe'.

Rory



 		
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Tue Jul 18 10:54:15 2006
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:54:15 +0100
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUL.2006.115415.0100.>

Folks: for me the 'first stop' is Johanna Nichols' article on this in Language in (about) 1970.  She explores this issue in some detail (concentrating on languages of the Far West), and does use some data from Lakhota or Santee, I forget which.  The book on sound symbolism that Leanne Hinton coedited is also germane to this.

I recall from the 90s that Hanis Coos, of coastal Oregon, has /puus/ 'cat' (an English loan rather than one from Chinook Jargon pi$pi$) and its expected equivalent /puuk/ for 'kitten' - an interesting case of such a change affecting a loanword.

Anthony



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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Wed Jul 19 10:37:53 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:37:53 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <44BCCBE7020000A6000009D4@ext.edgehill.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.123753.0200.>

Alfred wrote:
 >> My guess is that this 'southern Chinese' u(k)na(ke) has nothing to do
with the American term 'unaker' (in the the sense that coincidentally
both terms are just - moreorless - similar in sound).<<<<

Rory wrote:
 > Alfred, before we write these words off as coincidence, can we 
confirm that
the southern Chinese u(k)na(ke) word existed prior to the Ming naval
expeditions?  (Just to make sure that the borrowing was not in the other
direction.) <<

Rory, that's what my friend replied to this:

" Dear Alfred,

  I cannot confirm to you down to the timing. In southern dialect, we 
seldom use "tu". We always use "na(ke)", particularly if it is mixed 
with water. U(k)na(ke) is still used in Taiwan. You can do a google 
search on the term. When it is colloquial, it is hard to determine the 
exact period. Because once it is written, it might be different.

  I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters 
let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since 
ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if 
other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it. 
These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think 
there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to 
marry outside and their small population. "

As already mentioned here, u(k) + na(ke) would be e4 + ni2 in Putonghua 
(UTF-8) ? (chalk) + ? (mud, clay). tu3 ? (soil, land, earth) or nitu ?? 
(soil) is the modern expression.

It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty 
common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general 
and not restricted to the production of porcelain).

Alfred

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From John.Koontz at colorado.edu  Wed Jul 19 16:15:28 2006
From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:15:28 -0600
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <8aae07ab3c091c0ffd7e3810b57a0903@fa-kuan.muc.de>
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.101528.0600.>

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. T?ting wrote:
>   I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters
> let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since
> ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if
> other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it.
> These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think
> there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to
> marry outside and their small population. "

I think there might be some vagueness on the chronology here.  I assume
that aboriginal Catawba pottery was a thing of the past by the 1700s, if
the progress of matters in the East was anything like that in the
Mississippi Valley.  Most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan groups were
quite vague on the whole process of making pots by the late 1800s, as they
had been using trade equivalents for so long.  Radin elicited quite a
fanciful process from Winnebago speakers.  Whether any modern Catawba
folks have taken up ceramics again, I couldn't say.

> It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty
> common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
> and not restricted to the production of porcelain).

Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the diagnostic
features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to maize
boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.

It's not clear to me on what basis and at what time Mt. Unaker was named,
i.e., whether by the European commercializers of the kaolin digging
operations, or earlier, by the Cherokee.  There are a fair number of
"White Mountains" in the world, of course, named so for various reasons.
I recently drove over Red Hill Pass in South Park and noticed that the
slopes were indeed somewhat reddish, especially by contrast with the soil
of the main park basin.


From BARudes at aol.com  Wed Jul 19 16:41:15 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:41:15 EDT
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUL.2006.124115.EDT.>

In a message dated 7/19/2006 12:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes:

> Subj: Re: Color terms and consonant symbolism 
>  Date: 7/19/2006 12:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu
>  Reply-to: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
>  Sent from the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, [ISO-8859-1] A.W. Ting wrote:
> >  I just found another piece of information. The Catawba valley potters
> >let their clay age, just like what the Chinese have been doing it since
> >ancient time. This gives more plasticity of the clay. I don't know if
> >other cultures does the same, or when the Catawba potters learned it.
> >These Catawba potters are not necessarily Catawba Indians. I think
> >there are no pure Catawba Indians any more because of their custom to
> >marry outside and their small population. "
> 
> I think there might be some vagueness on the chronology here.  I assume
> that aboriginal Catawba pottery was a thing of the past by the 1700s, if
> the progress of matters in the East was anything like that in the
> Mississippi Valley.  Most of the Mississippi Valley Siouan groups were
> quite vague on the whole process of making pots by the late 1800s, as they
> had been using trade equivalents for so long.  Radin elicited quite a
> fanciful process from Winnebago speakers.  Whether any modern Catawba
> folks have taken up ceramics again, I couldn't say.
> 
> >It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a pretty
> >common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
> >and not restricted to the production of porcelain).
> 
> Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
> seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
> report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the diagnostic
> features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
> including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to maize
> boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
> Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
> sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.
> 
> It's not clear to me on what basis and at what time Mt. Unaker was named,
> i.e., whether by the European commercializers of the kaolin digging
> operations, or earlier, by the Cherokee.  There are a fair number of
> "White Mountains" in the world, of course, named so for various reasons.
> I recently drove over Red Hill Pass in South Park and noticed that the
> slopes were indeed somewhat reddish, especially by contrast with the soil
> of the main park basin.
> 
> 

Pottery making never died out among the Catawbas. It was the one thing that 
served to "define" Catawba culture from prehistoric times up to the present. 
The tradition is very old (dating to the Late Archaic Period) and indigenous to 
the Carolinas. During the 19th and early centuries is was still widely made 
and sold as a tourist item. The tradition died back (but not out) in the middle 
of the twentieth century with dispersal of the Catawbas and the loss of 
federal recognition. In 1965, one Catawba woman wrote that "there is no one here (on 
the reservation) now that speaks or would understand the Catawba language. 
Only a few of the older women make the pottery any more. I still make it." 
(Doris Wheelock Blue, quoted in Douglas Summer Brown, The Catawba Indians: The 
People of the River, USC Press, 1966, p. 365). Brown goes on to comment that "is 
pottery, the single, most characteristic Catawba artifact, the last link with 
these ancient people and their ancient ways?" (p. 365). Pottery making 
underwent a resurrgence in the late twentieth century and there are now a fair number 
of master potters among the Catawba.

As the anthropologist Frank Speck documented, the Catawba pottery tradition 
was brought to the Cherokee in the mid-19th century when a number of Catawbas 
married Cherokees and moved to Cherokee land. Thus, it is unlikely that the use 
of the Cherokee word for 'white' in reference to pottery dates any earlier 
than the mid-19th century. I should also not that there are no terms related to 
pottery making in Catawba that bear any resemblence to Cherokee uneka 'white' 
or the Chinese term.

Blair 
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 09:34:59 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:34:59 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0607190959500.18749@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.113459.0200.>

Am 19.07.2006 um 18:15 schrieb Koontz John E:

>> It appears that the aging process of clay mixtures seems to be a 
>> pretty
>> common way of processing worldwide (with regard to pottery in general
>> and not restricted to the production of porcelain).
>
> Not sure if this last was Alfred or his friend speaking, but I recall
> seeing some discussion of tempering in the friend's web site, and I can
> report that adding burnt shell to clay as temper is one of the 
> diagnostic
> features of Mississippian cultures (from c. 1000 AD and earlier),
> including Oneota, which has a sort of rough equivalence with early
> Mississippi Valley Siouan.  It's thought that the lime this added to 
> maize
> boiled in the pots helped break it down to make it more digestible.
> Earlier and peripheral areas used fine sand and also "grog"  - crushed
> sherds of earlier pottery - as temper.


My remark.
Your dates are highly interesting since this would be prior to Zheng He 
and his questionable 'discovery' of North Carolina. Adding burnt/ground 
shells to the clay by the Cherokee (etc.) potters is a fact; I only 
didn't know since when this process had been familiar to Natives of 
North America.

Alfred


From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 10:16:07 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:16:07 +0200
Subject: Color terms and consonant symbolism
In-Reply-To: <318.6c884d5.31efbaab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.121607.0200.>

Blair, thanks a lot. Your comment is most valuable to judge this issue 
:)

Alfred

Am 19.07.2006 um 18:41 schrieb BARudes at aol.com:

>  Pottery making never died out among the Catawbas. It was the one 
> thing that served to "define" Catawba culture from prehistoric times 
> up to the present. The tradition is very old (dating to the Late 
> Archaic Period) and indigenous to the Carolinas. During the 19th and 
> early centuries is was still widely made and sold as a tourist item. 
> The tradition died back (but not out) in the middle of the twentieth 
> century with dispersal of the Catawbas and the loss of federal 
> recognition. In 1965, one Catawba woman wrote that "there is no one 
> here (on the reservation) now that speaks or would understand the 
> Catawba language. Only a few of the older women make the pottery any 
> more. I still make it." (Doris Wheelock Blue, quoted in Douglas Summer 
> Brown, The Catawba Indians: The People of the River, USC Press, 1966, 
> p. 365). Brown goes on to comment that "is pottery, the single, most 
> characteristic Catawba artifact, the last link with these ancient 
> people and their ancient ways?" (p. 365). Pottery making underwent a 
> resurrgence in the late twentieth century and there are now a fair 
> number of master potters among the Catawba.
>
>  As the anthropologist Frank Speck documented, the Catawba pottery 
> tradition was brought to the Cherokee in the mid-19th century when a 
> number of Catawbas married Cherokees and moved to Cherokee land. Thus, 
> it is unlikely that the use of the Cherokee word for 'white' in 
> reference to pottery dates any earlier than the mid-19th century. I 
> should also not that there are no terms related to pottery making in 
> Catawba that bear any resemblence to Cherokee uneka 'white' or the 
> Chinese term.
>
>  Blair
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 14:59:15 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:59:15 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <C70AC5440FBE564E828E8051E8D3CBE6044894A2@MAILBOXSIX.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.165915.0200.>

Dr. SLL wrote to me:

 > (...) I am also puzzled by the absence of the word unaker in Catawba. 
But they call clay and pot by the same sound i-to or i-tu. Could you 
ask the experts to confirm this? There is an online English-Catawba 
dictionary. I am not quite sure of the notations there. <<


This statement on Catawba 'i-to', 'i-tu' (for clay or pot) seems 
correct (the word list is to be found here: 
http://www.angelfire.com/az2/catawba/c.html).
I'm not sure whether or not SLL is maybe speculating on the similarity 
of sound to a Chinese compound word *e4 tu3 ?? (UTF-8) which could be 
broken down as 'chalk-earth'.

Alfred
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From BARudes at aol.com  Thu Jul 20 16:09:11 2006
From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:09:11 EDT
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.120911.EDT.>

The on-line dictionary of Catawba is wrong. The words for 'clay' and 'pot' in 
Catawba are not the same. The word for a 'bowl, dish, pot' is at'us in the 
Saraw dialect of Catawba and it'us in the Esaw dialect. The word for 'clay' is 
'iNtu: with a stressed nasal-i in the first syllable and a long-u in the 
second. The specific word for a 'clay for making pots' is a compound of the word for 
'clay' and the word for 'bowl, dish, pot': iNt'u:tus. It is worth noting, 
however, that in the Woccon language, another Catawban language, the word <Intom> 
is glossed as 'pipe'. <Intom> appears to be cognate with Catawba 'iNtu: 
'clay'.

Blair
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From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de  Thu Jul 20 17:11:51 2006
From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:11:51 +0200
Subject: Cherokee term for 'china clay'
In-Reply-To: <415.648f920.31f104a7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUL.2006.191151.0200.>

Thanks a lot, Blair!

Alfred

Am 20.07.2006 um 18:09 schrieb BARudes at aol.com:

> The on-line dictionary of Catawba is wrong. The words for 'clay' and 
> 'pot' in Catawba are not the same. The word for a 'bowl, dish, pot' is 
> at'us in the Saraw dialect of Catawba and it'us in the Esaw dialect. 
> The word for 'clay' is 'iNtu: with a stressed nasal-i in the first 
> syllable and a long-u in the second. The specific word for a 'clay for 
> making pots' is a compound of the word for 'clay' and the word for 
> 'bowl, dish, pot': iNt'u:tus. It is worth noting, however, that in the 
> Woccon language, another Catawban language, the word <Intom> is 
> glossed as 'pipe'. <Intom> appears to be cognate with Catawba 'iNtu: 
> 'clay'.
>
>  Blair
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From rankin at ku.edu  Fri Jul 21 19:12:33 2006
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:12:33 -0500
Subject: Attn Siouanists in the Midwest.
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUL.2006.141233.0500.>

Mid America Linguistics Conference call for papers.  
 
From: owner-LING-L at listproc.cc.ku.edu on behalf of Gabriele, Alison
Sent: Fri 7/21/2006 6:38 AM
To: Gabriele, Alison; LING-L
Subject: Mid-American Linguistics Conference (MALC) 2006

> The Mid-American Linguistics Conference (MALC) has been revived. It is being held this year at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville at the end of October. Abstracts are due on August 21st.  There will be a special forum dedicated to graduate students. I've pasted the full Linguist List posting below.

Alison

Message 2: Mid-American Linguistics Conference
Date: 17-Jul-2006
From: Douglas Simms <dsimmssiue.edu>
Subject: Mid-American Linguistics Conference

Full Title: Mid-American Linguistics Conference
Short Title: MALC

Date: 27-Oct-2006 - 28-Oct-2006
Location: Edwardsville, IL, USA
Contact Person: Larry Lafond
Meeting Email: llafondsiue.edu

Linguistic Field(s): General Linguistics

Call Deadline: 21-Aug-2006

Meeting Description:

October 27-28, 2006
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville invite submission of abstracts for the
2006 Mid-America Linguistics Conference.

We will continue the tradition of accepting papers on all linguistic topics.
Linguists in all areas of specialization are encouraged to submit abstracts.
This year's meeting will feature special interest sessions on Language
Acquisition and Morpho-Syntax. There will also be a forum dedicated to graduate
students.

Plenary Speaker: Silvina Montrul, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

Location:
The conference will be in Morris University Center on the campus of Southern
Illinois University Edwardsville. Edwardsville is located at the junctions of
I-270 and Illinois state highway 157 about 25 miles east of downtown St. Louis, MO.

Guidelines for Submissions of Papers:
Contributed papers will be allowed a maximum of 20 minutes for presentation.
Published proceedings of the conference will be available if there is sufficient
demand; ordering information will be provided in September. Instructions for the
preparation of manuscripts will be sent along with notification of acceptance.

Please submit one-page abstracts no later than August 21, 2006.

Submissions must be by e-mail as a PDF attachment. Submissions may also be faxed
(618-650-3509) to either: Larry LaFond, llafondsiue.edu or Seran Aktuna,
saktunasiue.edu.

Requests for additional information about program content may be sent to:
Ron Schaefer, Department of English, SIUE, Edwardsville, IL 62026-1431
Telephone: (618) 650-2060; or E-mail: rschaefsiue.edu.
For registration information contact: Conferences and Institutes at (618) 650-2660.

Audio-visual equipment will be available as required and requested.


From dispencer at charter.net  Fri Jul 21 22:33:28 2006
From: dispencer at charter.net (Darla Spencer)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:33:28 -0400
Subject: Siouans in the Kanawha Valley, WV
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUL.2006.183328.0400.>

Hello. I am new to the list but have been able to access the archives and I
am very interested in some of the past threads about the Monetons or the
Tomahittans that were in the Kanawha Valley in the seventeenth century. It's
pretty certain that the Monetons were Siouan but the identity of the
Tomahittans is more of a mystery. I have heard Yuchi and even Cherokee. From
what I have read, the Yuchi were thought to have been Siouan speakers, but
now I've heard them described as a linguistic isolate. What is the current
thinking in the linguistic community?    I'm also interested in the Dhegiha
Sioux and their relationship with the Ohio and possibly Kanawha Valleys. Can
anyone point me in the right direction to find out about the early Siouans
in the Ohio Valley and the split between the eastern and western? 

 

Darla Spencer, RPA

689 Gordon Drive

Charleston, WV  25314

(304) 343-9661

dispencer at charter.net

 

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From goodtracks at peoplepc.com  Mon Jul 31 19:03:58 2006
From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 14:03:58 -0500
Subject: Fw: Fw: language
Message-ID: <MON.31.JUL.2006.140358.0500.>


----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: language


Hi Jimm

The following notice appeared in my Arts and Sciences bulletin from OU. You may have already heard about it. It seems they are a bit late in doing this, but perhaps there will be some good come from it.

New Master's Degree May Save Native Languages

The Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education recently approved OU's request to offer a master's degree in applied linguistic anthropology. The program, expected to be available in the fall of 2007, will give students the opportunity to research endangered languages and understand the importance of keeping them alive. 

"This program will train a new generation of scholars to continue the documentation of these languages, especially native languages in our own backyard," Chancellor Paul G. Risser said. "Oklahoma's American Indian heritage is a state treasure and we must do whatever we can to preserve it." 

OU is the first university in the state to offer such a program. Currently, students in the college also can learn Cherokee, Cheyenne, Choctaw, Creek and Kiowa. According to Morris Foster, acting chair of the Department of Anthropology, a total of 462 students enrolled in these native languages during the 2005-2006 academic year. 

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