Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath

Wed Jul 12 00:30:40 UTC 2006

G'day Clive,

  I understand the busy!

  > So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? >

  Yes, but probably not enough to dissuade one from using it as a grammatical reference resource.  The letters are there, just without the accent marks, although this could make a difference in pronunciation and meaning.  In her grammar, the words for "black" and "thin" look the same: supi and supi.  It should really be sapi, black, and supi, thin.

  > Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? >

  Yes, I believe aNk- is cognate with Lakhota wa-.  However, as far as I know, the Southeastern Siouan languages don't differentiate like the others I guess in the accusative/ergative sense of different pronominal forms (although I believe Tutelo may have some remnant of it).  In Biloxi, aNk- appears to be the only 1st singular pronominal, although it varies with its forms aN- and x- depending on the following sound.  Einaudi goes over most of this phonology in pretty good detail I think.

  > Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix) >

  Looks like it.

  > Does that reply to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? >

  Yes, I believe so.  The 'wo' on the preceding (question) sentence is the male interrogative particle; I don't think there is one for female speech.

  > "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota >

  Yes.

  > Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha? >

  Biloxi definitely shows influence, both in vocabulary and possibly grammar, from the Muskogean languages, particularly Choctaw, with which it seemed to have the most contact.  Not sure about Tunica or Chitimacha--but then I don't have dictionaries or grammars for these.  It seems logical there would be some Tunica vocabulary in Biloxi, since they've been in a rather close relationship for many years, and indeed the Biloxi currently share their reservation in Louisiana with them.  There were also borrowings, perhaps via Mobilian Trade Jargon, from Spanish and/or French, such as the words for "coffee" kaxwi/kafi and "cow" wa(a)ka, this last also shared by at least some Muskogean languages and Cherokee.

  > Was [Rumsien] spoken in the Carmel area? >

  Yes, Monterey and Carmel, cousins of the Ohlone who inhabited the San Francisco Bay Area.  In fact, English 'abalone' apparently came from Rumsien Ohlone 'awlon' via Spanish 'abulon' (accent over the 'o').

  I'll look forward to your Biloxi sentences!

  Dave

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello Dave, Sorry for taking so long to reply: I've been rather busy. Thanks for all of that wonderful information you so kindly supplied! Actually I was expecting that D-S Biloxi dictionary to be fairly difficult to use, with inconsistencies & confusions galore, not just in orthography, judging from my experiences with other dictionaries/grammars of yesteryear, like Rev. Cyrus Byington's Dictionary of Choctaw, for instance. So the Einaudi treatise also has some orthographical problems also, eh? (Actually I have applied to obtain it on inter-library loan : when I do get it, & I have a clearer idea of the language's basic grammatical/syntactic structures,  I may have a go at  writing you a short letter in Biloxi.)  Thank you also for that analysis of the Biloxi sentence : most interesting. Would one be correct in assuming aNk to be cognate with Lakhota "wa-", (1s "actor" pronominal prefix); with initial semivowel "weakening" to the point of disappearance, and nasalisation
 also?  Is that "-k" interpolated due to the following vowel, as in Lakhota "unk[oyaka]pi" 1pPl. of "oyakA" [=tell; recount]? Can't think of any Lakhota analogue of "ade" ("iya/ia" [=speak]; "iyapi"[=speech, language]??). Might "-iNxti-" conceivably be cognate with Lakhota "-ic'i-" (reflexive infix), or even possibly with : "iyechinka" (adv. "of one's own accord")?? ; "-spe" seems fairly obviously a cognate of Lakhota : "(uN/oN)spe" [= to know how to..."] ; "uNspékhiyA" [=" cause to know how to=>teach"; "uNspéic'iciyA" [="teach oneself=>learn"] ; with  "-ye" a causal verb formant, as in Lakhota? One supposes "YaNdi" to be from same word-root as "chante" [=heart]; while "phi" [=good] might have many cognates in Lakhota : "phiic'iyA" [=to make oneself 'good'=>prepare oneself/make ready]? ; "phiya" [=to make 'good'=>to mend/repair//conjure the sick]; not to mention the many derivatives of "phila" [=to regard as 'good'=>be glad/rejoice=>be grateful/thankful]?? Does that reply
 to "YaNdi phi wo?"[=Heart good?], simply mean "( Indeed, my) heart is good/joyful"? I wonder whether Biloxi had an equivalent word/phrase for "goodbye/so long/see you!" involving the equivalent of the adverb "again" &/or an indefinite adverb of time corresponding to idea of "by and by/later on/before long" etc., like Lakhota's : "toksha akhe" ?? Does Biloxi show a greater or lesser degree of influence from Muskogean languages, or rather from Tunica? Chitimacha?   Thanks also for the sample of Rumsien Ohlone. Was it spoken in the Carmel area? Wonder if "Rowdy Yates" had ever heard of it? :), Best wishes, Clive.
    On 28/06/2006, at 6:10 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

    Hi Clive,

  > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?: another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you will have someone to write/speak to >

  You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user-UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a format where you can simply look up the English word and get the full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary, you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading) in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.

  > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically speaking? >

  Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade = language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye = cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."

  Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised grammar together along with the revised dictionary.  (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)

  > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey" under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok-Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter? Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >

  Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some propose that it includes languages all the way up into British Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do. 

  > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >

  Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French bonjour)
  How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart good?
  I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!

  Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!  

  And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in Rumsien)!

  Cheers,
  Dave

> Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. 
> 
> advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers>
> 

---------------------------------
  Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better.

---------------------------------
  How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20060711/f5079e9c/attachment.html>