From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 4 14:31:50 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:31:50 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this year's conference. I believe we had spoken about the weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know that would suit me because, I will be at another conference in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be bringing my daughter also to make it into a linguistic family holiday. Any advance information would be appreciated. Bruce Ingham ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 4 21:32:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 15:32:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry Message-ID: Bruce, Yes, that's my understanding. I believe it is scheduled for the college at Billings. Randy will probably get an official announcement out as soon as things are finalized. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Sat 3/4/2006 8:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry Dear Siouanists Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this year's conference. I believe we had spoken about the weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know that would suit me because, I will be at another conference in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be bringing my daughter also to make it into a linguistic family holiday. Any advance information would be appreciated. Bruce Ingham ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 4 23:09:09 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 23:09:09 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob Look forward to seeing you all there Bruce --- "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Bruce, > > Yes, that's my understanding. I believe it is > scheduled for the college at Billings. Randy will > probably get an official announcement out as soon as > things are finalized. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of > shokooh Ingham > Sent: Sat 3/4/2006 8:31 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry > > > > Dear Siouanists > Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this > year's conference. I believe we had spoken about > the > weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know > that > would suit me because, I will be at another > conference > in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come > across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. > Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be > bringing > my daughter also to make it into a linguistic > family > holiday. Any advance information would be > appreciated. > > Bruce Ingham > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've > developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > http://uk.security.yahoo.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Mar 7 20:03:01 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 14:03:01 -0600 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Message-ID: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 7 20:34:08 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:34:08 -0800 Subject: Lakota Language Classes Help Students Embrace Their Culture Message-ID: Thought there may be some who would find this interesting. Jonathan Lakota Language Classes Help Students Embrace Their Culture By Andrea J. Cook, Staff Writer Rapid City Journal - 6 March 2006 http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/03/06/news/features/952features.txt RAPID CITY, SD — After two years of Spanish, Morgan Catlett has continued earning world language credit in Rapid City Central High School’s Lakota language class. Since entering Susana Gilega’s classroom last fall, Morgan, 17, has learned more Lakota words. “I feel I understand something better,” Morgan said. Lessons about Lakota culture and traditions that Gilega weaves into each class have given her a better understanding of her Lakota classmates, Morgan said. “I’m happier than I was before,” Morgan said. “I’ve really enjoyed it.” Daniel Herrald, 17, who grew up in Rapid City, is a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. “All people should learn their language,” Daniel said. Daniel’s dad taught him a few Lakota words, but his command of Lakota and understanding of his Lakota culture is much better since starting the course, he said. Daniel can now converse with his dad and his grandparents and is learning more Lakota from them. Connecting students such as Daniel and Morgan through the Lakota language is long overdue, according to Gorgie Paulhamus, a guidance counselor at Central who works with American Indian students. And preserving the Lakota language is critical, she said. Educational research has demonstrated that the more children are involved in their culture and their language, the better they feel about themselves. “And they are more successful academically and personally,” Paulhamus said. “Language is first, and ours has always had to be on the back burner.” Gilega has taught Lakota at Central for the past four years. The course was formatted to give students one-half credit for a semester of Lakota 1 and another half credit for a semester of Lakota 2. Since her arrival, Gilega has worked to build a curriculum for Lakota that meets state standards. “It’s been a journey,” she said. “All I had was dictionaries and a rough overdraft.” Gilega has encountered objections from people who have varying perspectives on how Lakota should be approached and taught. Some believe that Lakota is an oral language and should be kept that way, she said. They say that putting Lakota in school or a written form sterilizes the language, Gilega said. Gilega is sympathetic with those opinions but said there is something bigger at stake — the preservation of the language. “If the kids aren’t getting Lakota language anywhere — and if school is the only place they can get it — so be it,” Gilega said. The written form of Lakota was recorded decades ago, and it’s a “purer” form of Lakota than the “slanguage” many Lakota speakers use today, Gilega said. “I would rather teach them (students) to speak it and read it and write it correctly in pure form and then show them how it’s slanged down,” Gilega said. Words are “slanged down” by dropping syllables, she said. For example, in Lakota, “matayan” means ‘I’m fine,” but frequently it’s shortened to “matan.” Also, words have evolved to have new meanings such as "zi" (yellow), which is used for “no.” Gilega said it is important that her students speak Lakota properly when they speak with their elders. “Otherwise, it would be disrespectful,” she said. Because Lakota is a communal language, Gilega said, she must include culture in her lessons. “You can’t detach Lakota from the culture,” she said. Rather than “me” and “my,” Lakota speak in terms of “we” and “ours.” “There are not a lot of ‘I’s,’” she said. Beginning next fall, Lakota 1 and Lakota 2 become full-credit yearlong courses, which means Lakota language students can earn two high school world language credits. Those credits will meet the Board of Regents requirements for admission to state universities, according to Pat Peel, director of student achievement and staff development for the Rapid City School District. Central will become the only public high school in the nation with accredited Lakota language courses, Gilega said. Central’s courses are making a difference for American Indian students, Paulhamus said. “It gives them a sense of who they are and makes what they’re about important in their educational day.” Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 7 20:42:06 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:42:06 -0800 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lakota Language Consortium P.O. Box 5034 Bloomington, IN 47407-5034 USA tel. 812.340.3517 fax. 812.857.4482 email: help at lakhota.org url: http://www.lakhota.org/ Rory M Larson wrote: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett com> To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 8 19:46:25 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 19:46:25 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a non-linguistic Siouan question, does anyone know whether General John Abizaid, one of the senior commanders of American forces in Iraq is a Lakota? There are two families among the Lakotas with Arab names. One is Abdella and the other Abizaid. I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who had come maybe via the French in Canada. Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Mar 8 20:20:34 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:20:34 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid Message-ID: As far as I know, he's just a Christian Arab. I've never heard Lakota ancestry claimed for him in the British press, who would be sure to pick up on such a thing for its 'novelty' value. (I recall that much was made in the UK press of George Mitchell's largely Lebanese ancestry during the Ulster peace talks, and again because it was a 'novelty'.) Most Brits know nothing of the historical demographics of the 'Rustbelt' and are completely unaware that there are any Arab Americans apart from Jamie Farr. But if anyone else knows differently aboput Gneeral Abizaid, I'll be happy to be corrected. (As an aside, novelist and academic Paula Gunn Allen has Native - Laguna Keresan - and Lebanese ancestry, and I think I read somewhere that she grew up speaking all these plus German and English.) Anthony >>> shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk 03/08/06 7:46 pm >>> On a non-linguistic Siouan question, does anyone know whether General John Abizaid, one of the senior commanders of American forces in Iraq is a Lakota? There are two families among the Lakotas with Arab names. One is Abdella and the other Abizaid. I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who had come maybe via the French in Canada. Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 8 22:37:37 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:37:37 -0800 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: Hi everyone: This started out as a private discussion, but I'm taking John K's advice and putting it out here on the list in case anyone has any ideas about this, particularly the Muskogean since that seems to be most enigmatic. Anyone know about these forms in the eastern Muskogean languages? Dave Kaufman wrote: > I'm wondering about the Biloxi word ptasi meaning 'flat.' The Ofo word > padafi is obviously almost identical. It seems the Dakota form is > mdaska. What I'm curious about is the Chickasaw word is patasa, and the > Alabama word was something quite similar to the Chickasaw, so are the > Biloxi and Ofo words Muskogean in origin or are they Siouan? They seem > rather similar to either. Or, could Muskogean have borrowed the Siouan > word? John Koontz wrote: > The Siouan forms are a set in MVS, cf. Te blaska, OP bdhaska, IO brahge, WI paras. These suggest *pras (or perhaps *wras, depending on one's approach), usually extended by the formant *-ka. As you've noticed, the unextended form suggestive of *pras-e is found in Sourtheastern. This is one of the forms that regularly participates in sound symbolism. > > On the other hand, I don't know anything about the prevalence of the form in Muskogean. You might want to ask on the list if anyone knows of lookalikes in other families. > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. > Bob Rankin wrote: > It's pretty clearly reconstructible in Siouan as something like *w-ras-. The w- was probably *wa- and the -ka is a common derivational suffix found with stative verbs. So it's the Muskogean that is unexplained. John's right about the similarity to European terms too. I don't know what to make of that. > > Interestingly, the Western Muskogean terms participate in a kind of "fricative symbolism". In addition to patassa, you also have patafa (at least in Choctaw). (As in Faulkner's fictional "Yokna patapha County", which obviously means 'flatlands' -- Choctaw /yakna/ 'land'.) > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 8 23:02:05 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:02:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: <20060308223737.39808.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 9 00:35:51 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:35:51 -0700 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Anthony Grant wrote: > As far as I know, he's just a Christian Arab. I've never heard Lakota > ancestry claimed for him in the British press, who would be sure to pick > up on such a thing for its 'novelty' value. (I recall that much was > made in the UK press of George Mitchell's largely Lebanese ancestry > during the Ulster peace talks, and again because it was a 'novelty'.) > Most Brits know nothing of the historical demographics of the 'Rustbelt' > and are completely unaware that there are any Arab Americans apart from > Jamie Farr. Probably today it would be Paula Abdul. However, Americans themselves are always a bit surprised at the number of Arab Americans. My favorite example (Lebanese) is Richard "Dick Dale" Mansour. Bruce Ingham (shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk) 03/08/06 7:46 pm > I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had > married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th > Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who > had come maybe via the French in Canada. I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American ethnic parlance (if not referring to someone recently arrived from modern Syria) is usually a variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and refers to theoretically Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the Near East, or perhaps to anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be Semitic, but not Arab or Jewish. It's a bit like trying to figure out the subdivisions of the Dakota, only much harder. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Mar 9 10:04:38 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:04:38 +0000 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 03/08/06 11:02 pm >>> David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 9 13:48:09 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:48:09 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Grant wrote: > Are sunfish flat? Quite, and they're good "pan-fish". See picture at http://tinyurl.com/of2uy Alan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 9 15:23:03 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:23:03 -0600 Subject: General Abizaid Message-ID: I googled his name coupled with the word "Lakota" but only came up with websites that had completely separate items about the general and the Indian People. According to the bios he is American-born from a Christian Arab family, graduated from West Point, is fluent in Arabic, did grad work in Middle Eastern studies in Jordan and (I think) finally with a grad degree from Harvard. Also went to Stanford. Has lots of qualifications, but it doesn't look as though one of them is being Lakota. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 9 15:33:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:33:45 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: . . . as a flounder. B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 3/9/2006 4:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 9 17:50:55 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:50:55 -0800 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As long as we're on the subject of aquatic life, Biloxi presents us with another mystery: There is a word "naxodxapi" which is naxodi = alligator + xapi = box, which JOD translated as "Box Alligator." JOD says that, according to the Biloxi, this is a species of alligator that lives in the ocean. From what I know from Googling, alligators don't usually hang out in salt water (unless of course there was a salt-water species now extinct). I'm sort of wondering whether this could be a shark (since they both have big teeth?) and of course sharks live in the ocean. I assume the Biloxi probably would have seen alligators before sharks, so perhaps they extended the idea of alligator to shark by analogy? (I know in Australia there are salt-water crocs, but modern Florida crocs apparently live in brackish rather than salt water.) Dave Anthony Grant wrote: There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 03/08/06 11:02 pm >>> David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Mar 10 04:58:04 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:58:04 -0600 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Message-ID: Try Intertribal Wordpath Society out of Norman, OK. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Lakota Language Consortium P.O. Box 5034 Bloomington, IN 47407-5034 USA tel. 812.340.3517 fax. 812.857.4482 email: help at lakhota.org url: http://www.lakhota.org/ Rory M Larson wrote: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett com> To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 12 10:09:44 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:09:44 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John, In fact in the case of Abdela and Abizaid, it's just that they are apparently Lebanese names to this day, which made me think 'Syrian' could mean 'Lebanese' as in 'Greater Syria'. The use of Syrian, Assyrian and Syriac including Aramaian (however it's spelt) is though quite confusing. Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > > I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American > ethnic parlance (if not > referring to someone recently arrived from modern > Syria) is usually a > variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and > refers to theoretically > Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the Near > East, or perhaps to > anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be > Semitic, but not > Arab or Jewish. > > It's a bit like trying to figure out the > subdivisions of the Dakota, only > much harder. > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 12 10:23:38 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:23:38 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: <20060312100944.78083.qmail@web26803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In fact in older times as John says Syrian generally meant Middle eastern. There is a Christian scholar of early Christian, Pre Islamic times known as 'Isaac the Syrian' in Arabic 'Ishaq al Qatari' who in fact came from Qatar the home of Jazira Television, but may have been writing in Iraq, I think Bruce > > > > I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American > > ethnic parlance (if not > > referring to someone recently arrived from modern > > Syria) is usually a > > variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and > > refers to theoretically > > Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the > Near > > East, or perhaps to > > anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be > > Semitic, but not > > Arab or Jewish. > > > > It's a bit like trying to figure out the > > subdivisions of the Dakota, only > > much harder. > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've > developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > http://uk.security.yahoo.com > ___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Mar 13 18:08:46 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:08:46 -0600 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> I am amplifying my dictionary for the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria language. Along with the thought above, I have listed in the Baxoje Jiwere native section, all nasalized "An's" that begin a word first, before separately listing the words that simply begin with the letter, "A". I follow along in course similarily with nasalized "in's & i's" & "un & u". Also, I have the consonants (bigraphs/ graphemes) "dh, th, t^", preceed the regular "t" entries. Other glottal stop phonemes also preceed their regular letter. I do this to call attention to their unique quality which is not usually in the awareness of English speaking and writing IOM community members. I note that when the different phonemes are intergraded in the usual English dictionary fashion, these phonemes that start words are usually overlooked or not found very readily. I am not aware of how the Lakota and other Siouan languages are handling the variations of phonemes in their lexicography. The members of the community are most accustomed to the sounding out of IOM words in English phonetics, which we are aware how the same word could be and are sounded out in by different persons in different ways. By keeping all the "graphemes" separate, seems more condusive to language literacy and learning by non-speakers community members. What is the thoughts of others in this regard. I note especially for the non-speakers of IOM, the notation of the phoneme "R" in the language. For the older speakers, they rarely try writing the language, but when they do, it is a problem of how to represent the "R". I state: [Note: This sound does not occur in English. It is common in many Native American languages. It is made with a quick single flapped movement with the tip of the tongue, somewhat similar to the "tt" in English "kitty" in rapid speech. When it begins a word, it sometimes sounds to be a "dh" as in English "the", or even as "d/ dh/ l/ n" by some speakers. As such, in the example above, "ráye (name)" may also be heard as if saying "dháye". However, as it occurs within the word, as in "warúje (eat something)", it always maintains a clear rendition of a flapped "r".] This brings up the issue of writting phonetically VS phonemically. Generally, most speakers and speakers have no common orthography. Thus, the need to establish a standard. Should the understood linguistic rules be taught, or should one change the phonetic spelling to a phonemic spelling for the language community. For example: Is it easier for the learner to see-- nanpo (finger) vs nampo, Mina ne (Sit down!) vs Mina re, pi dana ke (It's very good) vs pi danra ke, wahusna (nothing but bones) vs wahusran I hope the above will suffice for the discussion, as I have tried to keep my examples limited and in simple format for comment. I know there are several on the list that are actively involved in the writting, study, teaching of language to the communities. Is phonemic spelling preferred over a phonetic spelling, in communities that have used only a variety of English sounded out phonetic spellings in the past. Jimm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sebastian Drude" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs > > >> Dear all, >> >> >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs (e.g., Shoebox >> manuals >> and "Making Dictionaries" suggest that you should follow this method). >> >> (By the way, exactly this relation of orthography and phonology should >> provide the basis to introduce a sound notion of "grapheme", which can >> consist of sequences of letters.) >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> >> However, I ever felt that this is an unecessary complication. I don't >> know if there are pragmatic/psycholongusitic studies or systematic >> studies >> of usage of dictionaries around that tested how much extra learning and >> mental processing it needs, for instance for the speakers of Spanish, to >> follow this rule. I guess it is a complication; for learners of Spanish >> it is awkward at best. >> >> For the ends of linguistic analysis, e.g., formulation of search >> conditions, alphabetically treating multigraph graphemes as units on >> their >> own may be useful, but I would suggest that this does not mean that a >> dictionary for a speech community which is in the process of becoming a >> litterate society should necessarily follow this principle; on the >> contrary, I would subscribe to Allans sentence below, which, in the case >> of minority languages, is to be taken, however, less as an empirical >> statement than as a methodological principle. So substitute a "should" >> for the "usually": >> >>> "Dictionaries >>> usually alphabetize letter by letter rather than phoneme by phoneme". >> >> I would like to know if other practicioners of lexicography in this list >> agree with my point of view. >> >> All the best, >> Sebastian Drude >> >> >> Literature on this topic for German: >> >> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphemik , there are citations of: >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Die Schreibsilbe im Deutschen, in: Schriftsystem und >> Orthografie, hrsg. von P. Eisenberg/H. Günther, Tübingen 1989, S.57-84. >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Linguistische Fundierung orthographischer Regeln, >> Umrisse >> einer Wortgraphematik des Deutschen, in: Homo scribens, hrsg. von Jürgen >> Baurmann e.a., Tübingen 1993, S.67-91. >> >> -- >> | Sebastian D R U D E (Lingüista, Projeto Aweti / DOBES) >> | Setor de Lingüística -- Coordenação de Ciências Humanas (CCH) >> | Museu Paraense Emílio Goeldi, Belém do Pará -- CNPq -- MCT >> | Cx.P. 399 -- CEP: 66 040 - 170 -- Tel. e FAX: (91) 274 40 04 >> | Email: sebadru at zedat.fu-berlin.de + drude at museu-goeldi.br >> | URL: http://www.germanistik.fu-berlin.de/il/pers/drude-en.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 18:07:41 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:07:41 -0800 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING In-Reply-To: <001e01c646c9$343b4c30$e254133f@JIMM> Message-ID: > Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical ordering. > Actually, the Academia Espanola, in the mid 1990s, changed this so that now in Spanish dictionaries after about 1995 ch and ll are no longer considered separate "letters," although they of course remain distinct phonemes. They now simply follow in alphabetical order under c and l respectively. I warn students of this when I teach Spanish, just so they're aware of it in case they see older dictionaries with these phonemes separated out. As far as my work on the Biloxi dictionary goes, right now in my first draughts I've been putting aN, iN, and oN in alphabetical order after the respective non-nasalized version of the vowel. I have not separated out kh, ph, or th from k, p, or t. However, in these early stages, I'm certainly open to ideas as what others are doing with other Siouan language dictionaries. Dave goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> I am amplifying my dictionary for the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria language. Along with the thought above, I have listed in the Baxoje Jiwere native section, all nasalized "An's" that begin a word first, before separately listing the words that simply begin with the letter, "A". I follow along in course similarily with nasalized "in's & i's" & "un & u". Also, I have the consonants (bigraphs/ graphemes) "dh, th, t^", preceed the regular "t" entries. Other glottal stop phonemes also preceed their regular letter. I do this to call attention to their unique quality which is not usually in the awareness of English speaking and writing IOM community members. I note that when the different phonemes are intergraded in the usual English dictionary fashion, these phonemes that start words are usually overlooked or not found very readily. I am not aware of how the Lakota and other Siouan languages are handling the variations of phonemes in their lexicography. The members of the community are most accustomed to the sounding out of IOM words in English phonetics, which we are aware how the same word could be and are sounded out in by different persons in different ways. By keeping all the "graphemes" separate, seems more condusive to language literacy and learning by non-speakers community members. What is the thoughts of others in this regard. I note especially for the non-speakers of IOM, the notation of the phoneme "R" in the language. For the older speakers, they rarely try writing the language, but when they do, it is a problem of how to represent the "R". I state: [Note: This sound does not occur in English. It is common in many Native American languages. It is made with a quick single flapped movement with the tip of the tongue, somewhat similar to the "tt" in English "kitty" in rapid speech. When it begins a word, it sometimes sounds to be a "dh" as in English "the", or even as "d/ dh/ l/ n" by some speakers. As such, in the example above, "ráye (name)" may also be heard as if saying "dháye". However, as it occurs within the word, as in "warúje (eat something)", it always maintains a clear rendition of a flapped "r".] This brings up the issue of writting phonetically VS phonemically. Generally, most speakers and speakers have no common orthography. Thus, the need to establish a standard. Should the understood linguistic rules be taught, or should one change the phonetic spelling to a phonemic spelling for the language community. For example: Is it easier for the learner to see-- nanpo (finger) vs nampo, Mina ne (Sit down!) vs Mina re, pi dana ke (It's very good) vs pi danra ke, wahusna (nothing but bones) vs wahusran I hope the above will suffice for the discussion, as I have tried to keep my examples limited and in simple format for comment. I know there are several on the list that are actively involved in the writting, study, teaching of language to the communities. Is phonemic spelling preferred over a phonetic spelling, in communities that have used only a variety of English sounded out phonetic spellings in the past. Jimm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sebastian Drude" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs > > >> Dear all, >> >> >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs (e.g., Shoebox >> manuals >> and "Making Dictionaries" suggest that you should follow this method). >> >> (By the way, exactly this relation of orthography and phonology should >> provide the basis to introduce a sound notion of "grapheme", which can >> consist of sequences of letters.) >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> >> However, I ever felt that this is an unecessary complication. I don't >> know if there are pragmatic/psycholongusitic studies or systematic >> studies >> of usage of dictionaries around that tested how much extra learning and >> mental processing it needs, for instance for the speakers of Spanish, to >> follow this rule. I guess it is a complication; for learners of Spanish >> it is awkward at best. >> >> For the ends of linguistic analysis, e.g., formulation of search >> conditions, alphabetically treating multigraph graphemes as units on >> their >> own may be useful, but I would suggest that this does not mean that a >> dictionary for a speech community which is in the process of becoming a >> litterate society should necessarily follow this principle; on the >> contrary, I would subscribe to Allans sentence below, which, in the case >> of minority languages, is to be taken, however, less as an empirical >> statement than as a methodological principle. So substitute a "should" >> for the "usually": >> >>> "Dictionaries >>> usually alphabetize letter by letter rather than phoneme by phoneme". >> >> I would like to know if other practicioners of lexicography in this list >> agree with my point of view. >> >> All the best, >> Sebastian Drude >> >> >> Literature on this topic for German: >> >> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphemik , there are citations of: >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Die Schreibsilbe im Deutschen, in: Schriftsystem und >> Orthografie, hrsg. von P. Eisenberg/H. Günther, Tübingen 1989, S.57-84. >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Linguistische Fundierung orthographischer Regeln, >> Umrisse >> einer Wortgraphematik des Deutschen, in: Homo scribens, hrsg. von Jürgen >> Baurmann e.a., Tübingen 1993, S.67-91. >> >> -- >> | Sebastian D R U D E (Lingüista, Projeto Aweti / DOBES) >> | Setor de Lingüística -- Coordenação de Ciências Humanas (CCH) >> | Museu Paraense Emílio Goeldi, Belém do Pará -- CNPq -- MCT >> | Cx.P. 399 -- CEP: 66 040 - 170 -- Tel. e FAX: (91) 274 40 04 >> | Email: sebadru at zedat.fu-berlin.de + drude at museu-goeldi.br >> | URL: http://www.germanistik.fu-berlin.de/il/pers/drude-en.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Mar 15 20:16:49 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:16:49 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from the Cheyenne and related tribes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Mar 15 21:28:01 2006 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (mckay020) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:28:01 CST Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = > Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = > an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from = > the Cheyenne and related tribes? > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is one of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not written down. I think you too will get some information that you would never find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those lines. Just my two cents. -Cantemaza de miye do. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Mar 15 22:33:25 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:33:25 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: Yes, I understand what you say, and I have heard from Elders in the same manner. However, my question is not about them nor what they do, just the origin of the word and if there was anything similar with other Siouan groups. I have not heard of their existance on the southern plains. On the other hand, I have heard individuals (not Lakota) to state that they have either had similar experiences or at least, they think they do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mckay020" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: HEYOKA > On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: >> Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = >> Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = >> an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from >> = >> the Cheyenne and related tribes? >> > > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is > one > of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or > Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I > have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not > written down. I think you too will get some information that you would > never > find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those > lines. Just my two cents. > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 15 22:40:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:40:43 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: I had always sort of thought that "heyoka" and "hethushka", "heyoshka", etc. were related terms somehow. But I'm a "straight-leg" linguist more than an anthropologist, so I'm not very expert in such things. I do remember that we have discussed this topic before on the List however, so it might pay to do a search of the Siouan List Archive on "linguist list". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Wed 3/15/2006 4:33 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: HEYOKA Yes, I understand what you say, and I have heard from Elders in the same manner. However, my question is not about them nor what they do, just the origin of the word and if there was anything similar with other Siouan groups. I have not heard of their existance on the southern plains. On the other hand, I have heard individuals (not Lakota) to state that they have either had similar experiences or at least, they think they do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mckay020" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: HEYOKA > On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: >> Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = >> Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = >> an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from >> = >> the Cheyenne and related tribes? >> > > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is > one > of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or > Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I > have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not > written down. I think you too will get some information that you would > never > find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those > lines. Just my two cents. > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 17 17:43:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:43:30 -0700 Subject: HEYOKA (fwd) Message-ID: Comment from Wayne Leman on the Cheyenne term for Contrary. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:51:53 -0800 From: Wayne Leman To: Koontz John E Cc: Ives Goddard Subject: Re: HEYOKA (fwd) John, it's fine to post my response on the Siouan list, as long as it doesn't come across as my suggesting that there is a certain etymology. I simply have supplied the Cheyenne data and noted phonetic similarity. I must leave it for Souianists and people like Ives Goddard, who I will cc on this message, to try to determine if borrowing seems likely in this case. Wayne On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Wayne Leman wrote: > Interesting, John. The Cheyenne name for the Contraries is Hohnóhkao'o, > with the final [o] voiceless, so Heyoka is a fairly close match for > Frontier-style Spelling. The Contraries have historically been an > important Cheyenne institution. The individuals are considered sacred. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 17 18:35:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: HEYOKA (fwd) Message-ID: An additional comment from Ives Goddard: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:31:37 -0500 From: Ives Goddard To: John.Koontz at colorado.edu, wayne_leman at sil.org Subject: Re: HEYOKA (fwd) I'm note sure where this thread begins, but if the idea is to connect Lakota [heyoka] to the Cheyenne word it becomes somewhat easier (though still not obvious) if the preform that would have had *hy instead of /hn/ is compared. Chey. /hn/ is always from an earlier *hy (see my paper in the Haas volume) which is the regular treatment of PA *hw, (h)sw, hthw, and a few more exotic clusters, but none of this leads to an obvious etymology, that I can see. Probably Chey. /ka/ points to this being a loanword anyway, since there is no possible PA source for this sequence. The added /h/ before /k/ would be the normal Cheyenne treatment of an intervocalic voiceless stop. Ives From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 19 19:14:46 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:14:46 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, Sorry if I seem to be being uncharacteristically persistant about this, but have we got a definite date yet for the Siouan Caddoan conference this year. The reason i ask is that I have to arrange a flight from Maryland to Montana. I will be in Maryland from June 8th to June 11th and would like to come to Montana on the 11th or 12th on the assumption that the conference will be in Billings from June 16th to 18th and that I and my remaining family can explore Montana in the preceding week. The other fortunate complication is that the University of Maryland is paying my air fare so I want to be as accomodating as possible by giving them the dates quickly. Hope someone, probably Randy, can help Yours Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun Mar 19 22:22:15 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:22:15 EST Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query Message-ID: The dates for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference are June 16-18, in Billings. I have feelers out to both Rocky Mountain College and Montana State University-Billings, but haven't nailed down the exact site yet. I hope to do so in the next few weeks. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 20 11:33:34 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 11:33:34 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query In-Reply-To: <356.1e6a1e.314f3397@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks randy for your prompt reply. The dates and general locality are all I needed Yours Bruce --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > The dates for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference are > June 16-18, in Billings. > I have feelers out to both Rocky Mountain College > and Montana State > University-Billings, but haven't nailed down the > exact site yet. I hope to do so in > the next few weeks. > > Randy > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 28 15:19:52 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:19:52 -0800 Subject: Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble Message-ID: Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble The Associated Press - 27 March 2006 Those who hope they can stop the Dakota Sioux language from dying have hit on the perfect word: Scrabble. A special Scrabble tournament in the language made its debut Friday, pitting teams from Sioux reservation schools in North Dakota, South Dakota and Manitoba. The game is part of the tribe's campaign to revitalize the Dakota language, now spoken fluently by a dwindling number of elders. One survey predicted the last fluent Sisseton-Wahpeton Dakota speaker would die in 2025. "With these efforts, we'll try to prolong that," Darell DeCoteau said as he gestured to a nearby Scrabble board. "This will probably push that back a little bit." "Start in the middle," David Seaboy told a group of middle-school students from the Enemy Swim Day School at Waubay, S.D. "Everybody help somebody make a word." The first word to take shape was sa, pronounced "shah" — the color red. After a few minutes of frantic consultation with the official Dakota Sioux Scrabble dictionary, a team built on the base to form the word sapa, pronounced "shah-pa," or dirty, a word worth seven points. "This is a good stimulant for the mind," said Seaboy, 63, one of a group of Sisseton-Wahpeton elders, all fluent in the language, who wrote the 207-page Dakota dictionary. Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu Tue Mar 28 17:24:40 2006 From: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu (Daniel Altshuler) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:24:40 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Yahoo! News Story - Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News From: cafasola at eden.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, March 28, 2006 8:33 am To: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu Cc: cafasola at eden.rutgers.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060327/ap_on_fe_st/sioux_scrabble ============================================================ Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/ ================ Daniel Altshuler Department of Linguistics Rutgers University email: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu web: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~daltshul ========================================= From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 4 14:31:50 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:31:50 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this year's conference. I believe we had spoken about the weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know that would suit me because, I will be at another conference in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be bringing my daughter also to make it into a linguistic family holiday. Any advance information would be appreciated. Bruce Ingham ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Sat Mar 4 21:32:05 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 15:32:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry Message-ID: Bruce, Yes, that's my understanding. I believe it is scheduled for the college at Billings. Randy will probably get an official announcement out as soon as things are finalized. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of shokooh Ingham Sent: Sat 3/4/2006 8:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry Dear Siouanists Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this year's conference. I believe we had spoken about the weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know that would suit me because, I will be at another conference in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be bringing my daughter also to make it into a linguistic family holiday. Any advance information would be appreciated. Bruce Ingham ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 4 23:09:09 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 23:09:09 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob Look forward to seeing you all there Bruce --- "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Bruce, > > Yes, that's my understanding. I believe it is > scheduled for the college at Billings. Randy will > probably get an official announcement out as soon as > things are finalized. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of > shokooh Ingham > Sent: Sat 3/4/2006 8:31 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Siouan Caddoan Conference 2006 enquiry > > > > Dear Siouanists > Do we have a definite date and venue yet for this > year's conference. I believe we had spoken about > the > weekend 16th-18th of June or thereabouts. I know > that > would suit me because, I will be at another > conference > in Maryland from the 8th to the 10th and could come > across from there, if it is still to be in Montana. > Do we in fact have a location yet? I may be > bringing > my daughter also to make it into a linguistic > family > holiday. Any advance information would be > appreciated. > > Bruce Ingham > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've > developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > http://uk.security.yahoo.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Mar 7 20:03:01 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 14:03:01 -0600 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Message-ID: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 7 20:34:08 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:34:08 -0800 Subject: Lakota Language Classes Help Students Embrace Their Culture Message-ID: Thought there may be some who would find this interesting. Jonathan Lakota Language Classes Help Students Embrace Their Culture By Andrea J. Cook, Staff Writer Rapid City Journal - 6 March 2006 http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/03/06/news/features/952features.txt RAPID CITY, SD ? After two years of Spanish, Morgan Catlett has continued earning world language credit in Rapid City Central High School?s Lakota language class. Since entering Susana Gilega?s classroom last fall, Morgan, 17, has learned more Lakota words. ?I feel I understand something better,? Morgan said. Lessons about Lakota culture and traditions that Gilega weaves into each class have given her a better understanding of her Lakota classmates, Morgan said. ?I?m happier than I was before,? Morgan said. ?I?ve really enjoyed it.? Daniel Herrald, 17, who grew up in Rapid City, is a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. ?All people should learn their language,? Daniel said. Daniel?s dad taught him a few Lakota words, but his command of Lakota and understanding of his Lakota culture is much better since starting the course, he said. Daniel can now converse with his dad and his grandparents and is learning more Lakota from them. Connecting students such as Daniel and Morgan through the Lakota language is long overdue, according to Gorgie Paulhamus, a guidance counselor at Central who works with American Indian students. And preserving the Lakota language is critical, she said. Educational research has demonstrated that the more children are involved in their culture and their language, the better they feel about themselves. ?And they are more successful academically and personally,? Paulhamus said. ?Language is first, and ours has always had to be on the back burner.? Gilega has taught Lakota at Central for the past four years. The course was formatted to give students one-half credit for a semester of Lakota 1 and another half credit for a semester of Lakota 2. Since her arrival, Gilega has worked to build a curriculum for Lakota that meets state standards. ?It?s been a journey,? she said. ?All I had was dictionaries and a rough overdraft.? Gilega has encountered objections from people who have varying perspectives on how Lakota should be approached and taught. Some believe that Lakota is an oral language and should be kept that way, she said. They say that putting Lakota in school or a written form sterilizes the language, Gilega said. Gilega is sympathetic with those opinions but said there is something bigger at stake ? the preservation of the language. ?If the kids aren?t getting Lakota language anywhere ? and if school is the only place they can get it ? so be it,? Gilega said. The written form of Lakota was recorded decades ago, and it?s a ?purer? form of Lakota than the ?slanguage? many Lakota speakers use today, Gilega said. ?I would rather teach them (students) to speak it and read it and write it correctly in pure form and then show them how it?s slanged down,? Gilega said. Words are ?slanged down? by dropping syllables, she said. For example, in Lakota, ?matayan? means ?I?m fine,? but frequently it?s shortened to ?matan.? Also, words have evolved to have new meanings such as "zi" (yellow), which is used for ?no.? Gilega said it is important that her students speak Lakota properly when they speak with their elders. ?Otherwise, it would be disrespectful,? she said. Because Lakota is a communal language, Gilega said, she must include culture in her lessons. ?You can?t detach Lakota from the culture,? she said. Rather than ?me? and ?my,? Lakota speak in terms of ?we? and ?ours.? ?There are not a lot of ?I?s,?? she said. Beginning next fall, Lakota 1 and Lakota 2 become full-credit yearlong courses, which means Lakota language students can earn two high school world language credits. Those credits will meet the Board of Regents requirements for admission to state universities, according to Pat Peel, director of student achievement and staff development for the Rapid City School District. Central will become the only public high school in the nation with accredited Lakota language courses, Gilega said. Central?s courses are making a difference for American Indian students, Paulhamus said. ?It gives them a sense of who they are and makes what they?re about important in their educational day.? Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 7 20:42:06 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:42:06 -0800 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lakota Language Consortium P.O. Box 5034 Bloomington, IN 47407-5034 USA tel. 812.340.3517 fax. 812.857.4482 email: help at lakhota.org url: http://www.lakhota.org/ Rory M Larson wrote: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett com> To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 8 19:46:25 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 19:46:25 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a non-linguistic Siouan question, does anyone know whether General John Abizaid, one of the senior commanders of American forces in Iraq is a Lakota? There are two families among the Lakotas with Arab names. One is Abdella and the other Abizaid. I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who had come maybe via the French in Canada. Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Mar 8 20:20:34 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:20:34 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid Message-ID: As far as I know, he's just a Christian Arab. I've never heard Lakota ancestry claimed for him in the British press, who would be sure to pick up on such a thing for its 'novelty' value. (I recall that much was made in the UK press of George Mitchell's largely Lebanese ancestry during the Ulster peace talks, and again because it was a 'novelty'.) Most Brits know nothing of the historical demographics of the 'Rustbelt' and are completely unaware that there are any Arab Americans apart from Jamie Farr. But if anyone else knows differently aboput Gneeral Abizaid, I'll be happy to be corrected. (As an aside, novelist and academic Paula Gunn Allen has Native - Laguna Keresan - and Lebanese ancestry, and I think I read somewhere that she grew up speaking all these plus German and English.) Anthony >>> shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk 03/08/06 7:46 pm >>> On a non-linguistic Siouan question, does anyone know whether General John Abizaid, one of the senior commanders of American forces in Iraq is a Lakota? There are two families among the Lakotas with Arab names. One is Abdella and the other Abizaid. I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who had come maybe via the French in Canada. Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 8 22:37:37 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:37:37 -0800 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: Hi everyone: This started out as a private discussion, but I'm taking John K's advice and putting it out here on the list in case anyone has any ideas about this, particularly the Muskogean since that seems to be most enigmatic. Anyone know about these forms in the eastern Muskogean languages? Dave Kaufman wrote: > I'm wondering about the Biloxi word ptasi meaning 'flat.' The Ofo word > padafi is obviously almost identical. It seems the Dakota form is > mdaska. What I'm curious about is the Chickasaw word is patasa, and the > Alabama word was something quite similar to the Chickasaw, so are the > Biloxi and Ofo words Muskogean in origin or are they Siouan? They seem > rather similar to either. Or, could Muskogean have borrowed the Siouan > word? John Koontz wrote: > The Siouan forms are a set in MVS, cf. Te blaska, OP bdhaska, IO brahge, WI paras. These suggest *pras (or perhaps *wras, depending on one's approach), usually extended by the formant *-ka. As you've noticed, the unextended form suggestive of *pras-e is found in Sourtheastern. This is one of the forms that regularly participates in sound symbolism. > > On the other hand, I don't know anything about the prevalence of the form in Muskogean. You might want to ask on the list if anyone knows of lookalikes in other families. > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. > Bob Rankin wrote: > It's pretty clearly reconstructible in Siouan as something like *w-ras-. The w- was probably *wa- and the -ka is a common derivational suffix found with stative verbs. So it's the Muskogean that is unexplained. John's right about the similarity to European terms too. I don't know what to make of that. > > Interestingly, the Western Muskogean terms participate in a kind of "fricative symbolism". In addition to patassa, you also have patafa (at least in Choctaw). (As in Faulkner's fictional "Yokna patapha County", which obviously means 'flatlands' -- Choctaw /yakna/ 'land'.) > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Wed Mar 8 23:02:05 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:02:05 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: <20060308223737.39808.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Thu Mar 9 00:35:51 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:35:51 -0700 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Anthony Grant wrote: > As far as I know, he's just a Christian Arab. I've never heard Lakota > ancestry claimed for him in the British press, who would be sure to pick > up on such a thing for its 'novelty' value. (I recall that much was > made in the UK press of George Mitchell's largely Lebanese ancestry > during the Ulster peace talks, and again because it was a 'novelty'.) > Most Brits know nothing of the historical demographics of the 'Rustbelt' > and are completely unaware that there are any Arab Americans apart from > Jamie Farr. Probably today it would be Paula Abdul. However, Americans themselves are always a bit surprised at the number of Arab Americans. My favorite example (Lebanese) is Richard "Dick Dale" Mansour. Bruce Ingham (shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk) 03/08/06 7:46 pm > I was told these names went back to "Syrian" forefathers who had > married into the tribe. 'Syrian' at that period, I suppose 19th > Century, would probably mean Lebanese and probably Arab Christians who > had come maybe via the French in Canada. I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American ethnic parlance (if not referring to someone recently arrived from modern Syria) is usually a variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and refers to theoretically Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the Near East, or perhaps to anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be Semitic, but not Arab or Jewish. It's a bit like trying to figure out the subdivisions of the Dakota, only much harder. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Mar 9 10:04:38 2006 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:04:38 +0000 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 03/08/06 11:02 pm >>> David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> From ahartley at d.umn.edu Thu Mar 9 13:48:09 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:48:09 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony Grant wrote: > Are sunfish flat? Quite, and they're good "pan-fish". See picture at http://tinyurl.com/of2uy Alan From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 9 15:23:03 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:23:03 -0600 Subject: General Abizaid Message-ID: I googled his name coupled with the word "Lakota" but only came up with websites that had completely separate items about the general and the Indian People. According to the bios he is American-born from a Christian Arab family, graduated from West Point, is fluent in Arabic, did grad work in Middle Eastern studies in Jordan and (I think) finally with a grad degree from Harvard. Also went to Stanford. Has lots of qualifications, but it doesn't look as though one of them is being Lakota. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Mar 9 15:33:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:33:45 -0600 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" Message-ID: . . . as a flounder. B. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 3/9/2006 4:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 9 17:50:55 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:50:55 -0800 Subject: Siouan and Muskogean "flat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As long as we're on the subject of aquatic life, Biloxi presents us with another mystery: There is a word "naxodxapi" which is naxodi = alligator + xapi = box, which JOD translated as "Box Alligator." JOD says that, according to the Biloxi, this is a species of alligator that lives in the ocean. From what I know from Googling, alligators don't usually hang out in salt water (unless of course there was a salt-water species now extinct). I'm sort of wondering whether this could be a shark (since they both have big teeth?) and of course sharks live in the ocean. I assume the Biloxi probably would have seen alligators before sharks, so perhaps they extended the idea of alligator to shark by analogy? (I know in Australia there are salt-water crocs, but modern Florida crocs apparently live in brackish rather than salt water.) Dave Anthony Grant wrote: There's a Western Muskogean form for 'sunfish' (whatever that is; we don't have them in England) which is patassa or patasa, and which is recorded for Mobilian Jargon - is that connected? Are sunfish flat? Anthony >>> ahartley at d.umn.edu 03/08/06 11:02 pm >>> David Kaufman wrote: > John Koontz wrote: > > In fact, though I'm hard pressed to understand this as a phonaestheme, > it does resemble IE forms like English flat, Latin planum, Greek Platon > 'Plato', a nickname, lit. 'the broad one', P. having been a wrestler in > his youth. I don't have a reference that allows looking up PIE sets. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE391.html Also, entry 12.71 FLAT (including some Baltic & Slavic cognates) in Buck's _Dict. of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages_ (1949), a marvelous word-treasury! Alan ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. <<<>>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Mar 10 04:58:04 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:58:04 -0600 Subject: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Message-ID: Try Intertribal Wordpath Society out of Norman, OK. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Language Revitalization Programs Lakota Language Consortium P.O. Box 5034 Bloomington, IN 47407-5034 USA tel. 812.340.3517 fax. 812.857.4482 email: help at lakhota.org url: http://www.lakhota.org/ Rory M Larson wrote: I just received the below plea for help from a student in our Omaha class. Can anyone volunteer contact information for plains Indian language revitalization projects? I know we have a few out there! Thanks, Rory ----- Forwarded by Rory M Larson/IS/UNL/UNEBR on 03/07/2006 01:44 PM ----- Matt Garrett com> To Rory Larson 03/07/2006 01:25 cc PM Subject Language Revitalization Programs Rory, I am looking at doing something with language revitalization among plains tribes. I know you are invovled with alot of people on a Sioux network of some sort. Do you know where i might start to look to see who is running programs and what they are doing? Thanks, Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 12 10:09:44 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:09:44 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks John, In fact in the case of Abdela and Abizaid, it's just that they are apparently Lebanese names to this day, which made me think 'Syrian' could mean 'Lebanese' as in 'Greater Syria'. The use of Syrian, Assyrian and Syriac including Aramaian (however it's spelt) is though quite confusing. Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > > I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American > ethnic parlance (if not > referring to someone recently arrived from modern > Syria) is usually a > variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and > refers to theoretically > Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the Near > East, or perhaps to > anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be > Semitic, but not > Arab or Jewish. > > It's a bit like trying to figure out the > subdivisions of the Dakota, only > much harder. > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 12 10:23:38 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:23:38 +0000 Subject: General Abizaid In-Reply-To: <20060312100944.78083.qmail@web26803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In fact in older times as John says Syrian generally meant Middle eastern. There is a Christian scholar of early Christian, Pre Islamic times known as 'Isaac the Syrian' in Arabic 'Ishaq al Qatari' who in fact came from Qatar the home of Jazira Television, but may have been writing in Iraq, I think Bruce > > > > I could be wrong, but I think Syrian in American > > ethnic parlance (if not > > referring to someone recently arrived from modern > > Syria) is usually a > > variant (shading into a reduction) of Assyrian and > > refers to theoretically > > Aramaic-speaking Nestorian Christians from the > Near > > East, or perhaps to > > anybody of Near Eastern origin who claims to be > > Semitic, but not > > Arab or Jewish. > > > > It's a bit like trying to figure out the > > subdivisions of the Dakota, only > > much harder. > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've > developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > http://uk.security.yahoo.com > ___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Mar 13 18:08:46 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:08:46 -0600 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> I am amplifying my dictionary for the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria language. Along with the thought above, I have listed in the Baxoje Jiwere native section, all nasalized "An's" that begin a word first, before separately listing the words that simply begin with the letter, "A". I follow along in course similarily with nasalized "in's & i's" & "un & u". Also, I have the consonants (bigraphs/ graphemes) "dh, th, t^", preceed the regular "t" entries. Other glottal stop phonemes also preceed their regular letter. I do this to call attention to their unique quality which is not usually in the awareness of English speaking and writing IOM community members. I note that when the different phonemes are intergraded in the usual English dictionary fashion, these phonemes that start words are usually overlooked or not found very readily. I am not aware of how the Lakota and other Siouan languages are handling the variations of phonemes in their lexicography. The members of the community are most accustomed to the sounding out of IOM words in English phonetics, which we are aware how the same word could be and are sounded out in by different persons in different ways. By keeping all the "graphemes" separate, seems more condusive to language literacy and learning by non-speakers community members. What is the thoughts of others in this regard. I note especially for the non-speakers of IOM, the notation of the phoneme "R" in the language. For the older speakers, they rarely try writing the language, but when they do, it is a problem of how to represent the "R". I state: [Note: This sound does not occur in English. It is common in many Native American languages. It is made with a quick single flapped movement with the tip of the tongue, somewhat similar to the "tt" in English "kitty" in rapid speech. When it begins a word, it sometimes sounds to be a "dh" as in English "the", or even as "d/ dh/ l/ n" by some speakers. As such, in the example above, "r?ye (name)" may also be heard as if saying "dh?ye". However, as it occurs within the word, as in "war?je (eat something)", it always maintains a clear rendition of a flapped "r".] This brings up the issue of writting phonetically VS phonemically. Generally, most speakers and speakers have no common orthography. Thus, the need to establish a standard. Should the understood linguistic rules be taught, or should one change the phonetic spelling to a phonemic spelling for the language community. For example: Is it easier for the learner to see-- nanpo (finger) vs nampo, Mina ne (Sit down!) vs Mina re, pi dana ke (It's very good) vs pi danra ke, wahusna (nothing but bones) vs wahusran I hope the above will suffice for the discussion, as I have tried to keep my examples limited and in simple format for comment. I know there are several on the list that are actively involved in the writting, study, teaching of language to the communities. Is phonemic spelling preferred over a phonetic spelling, in communities that have used only a variety of English sounded out phonetic spellings in the past. Jimm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sebastian Drude" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs > > >> Dear all, >> >> >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs (e.g., Shoebox >> manuals >> and "Making Dictionaries" suggest that you should follow this method). >> >> (By the way, exactly this relation of orthography and phonology should >> provide the basis to introduce a sound notion of "grapheme", which can >> consist of sequences of letters.) >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> >> However, I ever felt that this is an unecessary complication. I don't >> know if there are pragmatic/psycholongusitic studies or systematic >> studies >> of usage of dictionaries around that tested how much extra learning and >> mental processing it needs, for instance for the speakers of Spanish, to >> follow this rule. I guess it is a complication; for learners of Spanish >> it is awkward at best. >> >> For the ends of linguistic analysis, e.g., formulation of search >> conditions, alphabetically treating multigraph graphemes as units on >> their >> own may be useful, but I would suggest that this does not mean that a >> dictionary for a speech community which is in the process of becoming a >> litterate society should necessarily follow this principle; on the >> contrary, I would subscribe to Allans sentence below, which, in the case >> of minority languages, is to be taken, however, less as an empirical >> statement than as a methodological principle. So substitute a "should" >> for the "usually": >> >>> "Dictionaries >>> usually alphabetize letter by letter rather than phoneme by phoneme". >> >> I would like to know if other practicioners of lexicography in this list >> agree with my point of view. >> >> All the best, >> Sebastian Drude >> >> >> Literature on this topic for German: >> >> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphemik , there are citations of: >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Die Schreibsilbe im Deutschen, in: Schriftsystem und >> Orthografie, hrsg. von P. Eisenberg/H. G?nther, T?bingen 1989, S.57-84. >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Linguistische Fundierung orthographischer Regeln, >> Umrisse >> einer Wortgraphematik des Deutschen, in: Homo scribens, hrsg. von J?rgen >> Baurmann e.a., T?bingen 1993, S.67-91. >> >> -- >> | Sebastian D R U D E (Ling?ista, Projeto Aweti / DOBES) >> | Setor de Ling??stica -- Coordena??o de Ci?ncias Humanas (CCH) >> | Museu Paraense Em?lio Goeldi, Bel?m do Par? -- CNPq -- MCT >> | Cx.P. 399 -- CEP: 66 040 - 170 -- Tel. e FAX: (91) 274 40 04 >> | Email: sebadru at zedat.fu-berlin.de + drude at museu-goeldi.br >> | URL: http://www.germanistik.fu-berlin.de/il/pers/drude-en.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> > From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 18:07:41 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:07:41 -0800 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING In-Reply-To: <001e01c646c9$343b4c30$e254133f@JIMM> Message-ID: > Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical ordering. > Actually, the Academia Espanola, in the mid 1990s, changed this so that now in Spanish dictionaries after about 1995 ch and ll are no longer considered separate "letters," although they of course remain distinct phonemes. They now simply follow in alphabetical order under c and l respectively. I warn students of this when I teach Spanish, just so they're aware of it in case they see older dictionaries with these phonemes separated out. As far as my work on the Biloxi dictionary goes, right now in my first draughts I've been putting aN, iN, and oN in alphabetical order after the respective non-nasalized version of the vowel. I have not separated out kh, ph, or th from k, p, or t. However, in these early stages, I'm certainly open to ideas as what others are doing with other Siouan language dictionaries. Dave goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs AND PHONETIC VS PHONEMIC SPELLING >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> I am amplifying my dictionary for the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria language. Along with the thought above, I have listed in the Baxoje Jiwere native section, all nasalized "An's" that begin a word first, before separately listing the words that simply begin with the letter, "A". I follow along in course similarily with nasalized "in's & i's" & "un & u". Also, I have the consonants (bigraphs/ graphemes) "dh, th, t^", preceed the regular "t" entries. Other glottal stop phonemes also preceed their regular letter. I do this to call attention to their unique quality which is not usually in the awareness of English speaking and writing IOM community members. I note that when the different phonemes are intergraded in the usual English dictionary fashion, these phonemes that start words are usually overlooked or not found very readily. I am not aware of how the Lakota and other Siouan languages are handling the variations of phonemes in their lexicography. The members of the community are most accustomed to the sounding out of IOM words in English phonetics, which we are aware how the same word could be and are sounded out in by different persons in different ways. By keeping all the "graphemes" separate, seems more condusive to language literacy and learning by non-speakers community members. What is the thoughts of others in this regard. I note especially for the non-speakers of IOM, the notation of the phoneme "R" in the language. For the older speakers, they rarely try writing the language, but when they do, it is a problem of how to represent the "R". I state: [Note: This sound does not occur in English. It is common in many Native American languages. It is made with a quick single flapped movement with the tip of the tongue, somewhat similar to the "tt" in English "kitty" in rapid speech. When it begins a word, it sometimes sounds to be a "dh" as in English "the", or even as "d/ dh/ l/ n" by some speakers. As such, in the example above, "r?ye (name)" may also be heard as if saying "dh?ye". However, as it occurs within the word, as in "war?je (eat something)", it always maintains a clear rendition of a flapped "r".] This brings up the issue of writting phonetically VS phonemically. Generally, most speakers and speakers have no common orthography. Thus, the need to establish a standard. Should the understood linguistic rules be taught, or should one change the phonetic spelling to a phonemic spelling for the language community. For example: Is it easier for the learner to see-- nanpo (finger) vs nampo, Mina ne (Sit down!) vs Mina re, pi dana ke (It's very good) vs pi danra ke, wahusna (nothing but bones) vs wahusran I hope the above will suffice for the discussion, as I have tried to keep my examples limited and in simple format for comment. I know there are several on the list that are actively involved in the writting, study, teaching of language to the communities. Is phonemic spelling preferred over a phonetic spelling, in communities that have used only a variety of English sounded out phonetic spellings in the past. Jimm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sebastian Drude" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Lexicog] sorting of digraphs > > >> Dear all, >> >> >> my impression is that lexicography for minority languages done by >> linguists usually follows the advice to keep phonemes as the basis for >> sorting, including phonemes represented by bigraphs (e.g., Shoebox >> manuals >> and "Making Dictionaries" suggest that you should follow this method). >> >> (By the way, exactly this relation of orthography and phonology should >> provide the basis to introduce a sound notion of "grapheme", which can >> consist of sequences of letters.) >> >> In the case of indigenous languages in Latin America, this practice may >> be >> supported by the fact that Spanish also treats the two digraph-phonemes >> "ll" and "ch" as separated entities when it comes to alphabetical >> ordering. >> >> However, I ever felt that this is an unecessary complication. I don't >> know if there are pragmatic/psycholongusitic studies or systematic >> studies >> of usage of dictionaries around that tested how much extra learning and >> mental processing it needs, for instance for the speakers of Spanish, to >> follow this rule. I guess it is a complication; for learners of Spanish >> it is awkward at best. >> >> For the ends of linguistic analysis, e.g., formulation of search >> conditions, alphabetically treating multigraph graphemes as units on >> their >> own may be useful, but I would suggest that this does not mean that a >> dictionary for a speech community which is in the process of becoming a >> litterate society should necessarily follow this principle; on the >> contrary, I would subscribe to Allans sentence below, which, in the case >> of minority languages, is to be taken, however, less as an empirical >> statement than as a methodological principle. So substitute a "should" >> for the "usually": >> >>> "Dictionaries >>> usually alphabetize letter by letter rather than phoneme by phoneme". >> >> I would like to know if other practicioners of lexicography in this list >> agree with my point of view. >> >> All the best, >> Sebastian Drude >> >> >> Literature on this topic for German: >> >> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphemik , there are citations of: >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Die Schreibsilbe im Deutschen, in: Schriftsystem und >> Orthografie, hrsg. von P. Eisenberg/H. G?nther, T?bingen 1989, S.57-84. >> >> Peter Eisenberg: Linguistische Fundierung orthographischer Regeln, >> Umrisse >> einer Wortgraphematik des Deutschen, in: Homo scribens, hrsg. von J?rgen >> Baurmann e.a., T?bingen 1993, S.67-91. >> >> -- >> | Sebastian D R U D E (Ling?ista, Projeto Aweti / DOBES) >> | Setor de Ling??stica -- Coordena??o de Ci?ncias Humanas (CCH) >> | Museu Paraense Em?lio Goeldi, Bel?m do Par? -- CNPq -- MCT >> | Cx.P. 399 -- CEP: 66 040 - 170 -- Tel. e FAX: (91) 274 40 04 >> | Email: sebadru at zedat.fu-berlin.de + drude at museu-goeldi.br >> | URL: http://www.germanistik.fu-berlin.de/il/pers/drude-en.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/ >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Mar 15 20:16:49 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:16:49 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from the Cheyenne and related tribes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mckay020 at umn.edu Wed Mar 15 21:28:01 2006 From: mckay020 at umn.edu (mckay020) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:28:01 CST Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = > Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = > an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from = > the Cheyenne and related tribes? > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is one of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not written down. I think you too will get some information that you would never find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those lines. Just my two cents. -Cantemaza de miye do. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Mar 15 22:33:25 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:33:25 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: Yes, I understand what you say, and I have heard from Elders in the same manner. However, my question is not about them nor what they do, just the origin of the word and if there was anything similar with other Siouan groups. I have not heard of their existance on the southern plains. On the other hand, I have heard individuals (not Lakota) to state that they have either had similar experiences or at least, they think they do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mckay020" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: HEYOKA > On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: >> Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = >> Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = >> an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from >> = >> the Cheyenne and related tribes? >> > > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is > one > of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or > Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I > have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not > written down. I think you too will get some information that you would > never > find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those > lines. Just my two cents. > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Mar 15 22:40:43 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:40:43 -0600 Subject: HEYOKA Message-ID: I had always sort of thought that "heyoka" and "hethushka", "heyoshka", etc. were related terms somehow. But I'm a "straight-leg" linguist more than an anthropologist, so I'm not very expert in such things. I do remember that we have discussed this topic before on the List however, so it might pay to do a search of the Siouan List Archive on "linguist list". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Wed 3/15/2006 4:33 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: HEYOKA Yes, I understand what you say, and I have heard from Elders in the same manner. However, my question is not about them nor what they do, just the origin of the word and if there was anything similar with other Siouan groups. I have not heard of their existance on the southern plains. On the other hand, I have heard individuals (not Lakota) to state that they have either had similar experiences or at least, they think they do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mckay020" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: HEYOKA > On 15 Mar 2006, goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: >> Does anyone know the derivation of Heyoka (traditional Thunder = >> Contraries), and is there any documentation that suggest that they were = >> an institution among other Siouan groups? If not, were they a loan from >> = >> the Cheyenne and related tribes? >> > > Are you asking about the word itself or what a Heyoka is? This really is > one > of those subjects that I would highly recommend visiting with an elder or > Lakota person who has knowledge of these people and what it is they do. I > have been told some very intersting stories about Heyokas that are not > written down. I think you too will get some information that you would > never > find documented, especially if you give tobacco or something along those > lines. Just my two cents. > > -Cantemaza de miye do. > > From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 17 17:43:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:43:30 -0700 Subject: HEYOKA (fwd) Message-ID: Comment from Wayne Leman on the Cheyenne term for Contrary. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:51:53 -0800 From: Wayne Leman To: Koontz John E Cc: Ives Goddard Subject: Re: HEYOKA (fwd) John, it's fine to post my response on the Siouan list, as long as it doesn't come across as my suggesting that there is a certain etymology. I simply have supplied the Cheyenne data and noted phonetic similarity. I must leave it for Souianists and people like Ives Goddard, who I will cc on this message, to try to determine if borrowing seems likely in this case. Wayne On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Wayne Leman wrote: > Interesting, John. The Cheyenne name for the Contraries is Hohn?hkao'o, > with the final [o] voiceless, so Heyoka is a fairly close match for > Frontier-style Spelling. The Contraries have historically been an > important Cheyenne institution. The individuals are considered sacred. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri Mar 17 18:35:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: HEYOKA (fwd) Message-ID: An additional comment from Ives Goddard: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:31:37 -0500 From: Ives Goddard To: John.Koontz at colorado.edu, wayne_leman at sil.org Subject: Re: HEYOKA (fwd) I'm note sure where this thread begins, but if the idea is to connect Lakota [heyoka] to the Cheyenne word it becomes somewhat easier (though still not obvious) if the preform that would have had *hy instead of /hn/ is compared. Chey. /hn/ is always from an earlier *hy (see my paper in the Haas volume) which is the regular treatment of PA *hw, (h)sw, hthw, and a few more exotic clusters, but none of this leads to an obvious etymology, that I can see. Probably Chey. /ka/ points to this being a loanword anyway, since there is no possible PA source for this sequence. The added /h/ before /k/ would be the normal Cheyenne treatment of an intervocalic voiceless stop. Ives From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 19 19:14:46 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:14:46 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, Sorry if I seem to be being uncharacteristically persistant about this, but have we got a definite date yet for the Siouan Caddoan conference this year. The reason i ask is that I have to arrange a flight from Maryland to Montana. I will be in Maryland from June 8th to June 11th and would like to come to Montana on the 11th or 12th on the assumption that the conference will be in Billings from June 16th to 18th and that I and my remaining family can explore Montana in the preceding week. The other fortunate complication is that the University of Maryland is paying my air fare so I want to be as accomodating as possible by giving them the dates quickly. Hope someone, probably Randy, can help Yours Bruce ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun Mar 19 22:22:15 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:22:15 EST Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query Message-ID: The dates for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference are June 16-18, in Billings. I have feelers out to both Rocky Mountain College and Montana State University-Billings, but haven't nailed down the exact site yet. I hope to do so in the next few weeks. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 20 11:33:34 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 11:33:34 +0000 Subject: Siouan Caddoan conference dates query In-Reply-To: <356.1e6a1e.314f3397@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks randy for your prompt reply. The dates and general locality are all I needed Yours Bruce --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > The dates for the Siouan and Caddoan Conference are > June 16-18, in Billings. > I have feelers out to both Rocky Mountain College > and Montana State > University-Billings, but haven't nailed down the > exact site yet. I hope to do so in > the next few weeks. > > Randy > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 28 15:19:52 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:19:52 -0800 Subject: Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble Message-ID: Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble The Associated Press - 27 March 2006 Those who hope they can stop the Dakota Sioux language from dying have hit on the perfect word: Scrabble. A special Scrabble tournament in the language made its debut Friday, pitting teams from Sioux reservation schools in North Dakota, South Dakota and Manitoba. The game is part of the tribe's campaign to revitalize the Dakota language, now spoken fluently by a dwindling number of elders. One survey predicted the last fluent Sisseton-Wahpeton Dakota speaker would die in 2025. "With these efforts, we'll try to prolong that," Darell DeCoteau said as he gestured to a nearby Scrabble board. "This will probably push that back a little bit." "Start in the middle," David Seaboy told a group of middle-school students from the Enemy Swim Day School at Waubay, S.D. "Everybody help somebody make a word." The first word to take shape was sa, pronounced "shah" ? the color red. After a few minutes of frantic consultation with the official Dakota Sioux Scrabble dictionary, a team built on the base to form the word sapa, pronounced "shah-pa," or dirty, a word worth seven points. "This is a good stimulant for the mind," said Seaboy, 63, one of a group of Sisseton-Wahpeton elders, all fluent in the language, who wrote the 207-page Dakota dictionary. Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu Tue Mar 28 17:24:40 2006 From: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu (Daniel Altshuler) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:24:40 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Yahoo! News Story - Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News] Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News From: cafasola at eden.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, March 28, 2006 8:33 am To: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu Cc: cafasola at eden.rutgers.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dakota Sioux Language Saved by Scrabble - Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060327/ap_on_fe_st/sioux_scrabble ============================================================ Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/ ================ Daniel Altshuler Department of Linguistics Rutgers University email: daltshul at rci.rutgers.edu web: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~daltshul =========================================