From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon May 1 14:39:19 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Ho, zaaníN, Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's Unicode Kaw spellings to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks and stress marks on the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question marks and unmarked vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, since we were actually having some other problems with our @kawnation.com email server at the time. But, of course, I was worried that it may not have come through on someone else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran through his wordlist and converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got his permission to post the plain text version to the Siouan List. Enjoy! -jm --------------------------------- hw[be, be? def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? hw [bées^ki def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[dáadaN def[what, something hw[dáNaNska def[something, thing hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) def[why? hw[hagóodaN, -ó· (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hagóha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hagój^idaN (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakháN def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakháNda, -áN· (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakháNj^i hw[hakháNgo (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[v. hakháNj^i, -áN· (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakháNda hw[hakháNs^ke (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakháNz^i (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[hánaN def[how many, how much? hw[háyoNska def[how big, what size? hw[hówa + positional article def[where is the X shaped obj.? hw[hówage`j^i def[where, to what places hw[hóNoNs^ki (JOD) def[random, at, in no particular rem[place. hw[wiáNma (JOD) def[which, which one? hw[wiáNmas^kidáN (JOD) def[whichever, whichever one hw[wíaNmatta (JOD) def[whose is it? Which one are rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon May 1 15:40:49 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:40:49 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: For the Kaw 'wound' verb, Dorsey has the following slip (bear in mind that Dorsey's "u" character represents Kaw /o/, and that "aú" is how he writes the male declarative): ------------ u, v. to wound awá e aú, I have wounded it (=á-u-á-ye aú ?) yúa e aú, hiN, have you wounded it? taciyaNmaká édji úbe aú, Cayáni abá: the Cheyennes wounded him on his knee; (note that the é of édji above also bears a bowl-shaped breve mark on the slip -jm) ------------ Tricky stuff. For instance, much of his analysis suggests that the headword form probably ought to be a causative construction, o ye. Then again, one doesn't usually inflect both verbs used in a causative construction, and his 3rd person example isn't a causative at all (óbe). Notice also that he doesn't complete a morpheme breakdown for his 2nd person example like he does for his 1st, perhaps because it's difficult to account for a regular causative inflection under his assumptions (what happened to the y of a2s ya-). Furthermore, the verb is made all the trickier by the fact that some of the salient details of its construction, i.e., the o root and the y element of the causative ye, bear striking resemblances to the usual epenthetic glides w and y that emerge in certain casual speech environments and that may be omitted generally as non-phonemic. Here, though, they're not epenthetic at all. Lastly, while the root preserves the entire a1s a- and sheds its own primary stress (awá instead of áwa or aóa), it seems to "swallow up" the a element of the a2s ya- and take on primary stress (yóa instead of yawá or yáwa). It may be best to think of this verb as an especially ornery bird, and just consider it all as is. At least in Kaw... -jm From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon May 1 16:26:58 2006 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:26:58 -0600 Subject: first language acquisition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a study done in the 70s by Alicia Nokony, then a linguistics grad student at UBC. The language was Dakota (Oak Lake reserve, MB) - the children in the family were acquiring both Dakota and English. This is the only one I know of, but I thought I would check to see if anyone is aware of other work that has been done, or is being done. I have a colleague in the college of Medicine here who is in developmental pediatrics. The college is looking to develop a Speech/Language Pathology program. The strong need for health care in this area in aboriginal communities is a major incentive to do this. He has consulted me about the state of research in this area, so I am collecting what information I can to help the effort along. Mary At 03:41 PM 4/28/2006, you wrote: >Personally, I haven't heard of anyone working on that. Where would you do >the work except in a very few Dakotan and Crow communities? B. > >________________________________ > >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino >Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:50 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: first language acquisition > > > >Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition >in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is >anyone actively working on this? > >Mary Marino > > From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 18:24:21 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:24:21 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <003501c66d2d$0b1884f0$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: Bob, I think I got a bit confused between the Quapaw and the Kaw, when I was trying to fit it all into my data. I now think I know what is Kaw, after Justin's intervention, but I'm but sure which is the Quapaw. Below is what I have got down. Could you let me know if I'm very wrong anywhere. Don't worry about the transcription if it comes out looking nonsensical at the other end. I think it is OK this end Kansa or Kaw hanaska 'how big, what size' hakhá_ how far, how long' háyo_ska how big, what size athaaha 'how deep' hána_ 'how many, how much hana, hano, hanomucte 'how many, much' athakka 'how tall' dáada_ 'what' ha, ho, hotha, tatta 'what, why' hakhá_da, hagójida_, athatta 'when (future)' hakhá_go 'when, at what point of time' hagóha, hakidede 'where, in which direction' ówage`ji 'where, to what places' wiá_ma 'which, which one' be, howa 'who' háago, hagó haki, hanitta, honitta 'why' Quapaw háyoska 'how big, what size' hakha? 'how far, how long, when' hána 'how many, how much' hagójida 'when, at the time, because' hakha?go 'when, at what point or time' hakha?ada, -a? 'when, at what future time? hówage`ji 'where, to what places' hagóha 'whither , where to' wia?ma 'which, which one' háagohagó 'why' Bruce --- Justin McBride wrote: > Ho, zaaníN, > > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's > Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks > and stress marks on > the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question > marks and unmarked > vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, > since we were actually > having some other problems with our @kawnation.com > email server at the time. > But, of course, I was worried that it may not have > come through on someone > else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran > through his wordlist and > converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got > his permission to post > the plain text version to the Siouan List. > > Enjoy! > -jm > > --------------------------------- > > hw[be, be? > def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? > > hw [bées^ki > def[whoever, who + indefinite > > hw[dáadaN > def[what, something > > hw[dáNaNska > def[something, thing > > hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) > def[why? wherefore? > > hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) > def[why? > > hw[hagóodaN, -ó· (MR) > def[why, how come, for what reason > > hw[hagóha > def[where, whither, where to? > > hw[hagój^idaN (JOD) > def[when, at the time, because > > hw[hakháN > def[how far?, how long?, when? > > hw[hakháNda, -áN· (MR) > def[when, at what future time? > rem[v. hakháNj^i > > hw[hakháNgo (JOD) > def[when, at what point or time > > hw[v. hakháNj^i, -áN· (MR) > def[when, at what past time? > rem[v. hakháNda > > hw[hakháNs^ke (JOD) > def[sometime or other > > hw[hakháNz^i (JOD) > def[distance, at no great, not far > > hw[hánaN > def[how many, how much? > > hw[háyoNska > def[how big, what size? > > hw[hówa + positional article > def[where is the X shaped obj.? > > hw[hówage`j^i > def[where, to what places > > hw[hóNoNs^ki (JOD) > def[random, at, in no particular > rem[place. > > hw[wiáNma (JOD) > def[which, which one? > > hw[wiáNmas^kidáN (JOD) > def[whichever, whichever one > > hw[wíaNmatta (JOD) > def[whose is it? Which one are > rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' > > > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 1 19:05:26 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:05:26 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0007 SpamScore] Re: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce, I suspect you didn't get the Quapaw set, as both those below are the Kaw. I sent the Quapaw set to a slightly different email address that was in my Address Book -- it must have been one you were using last year. Maybe it is your wife's email address. I'll try to resend the Quapaw from my "sent messages file". Bob > I think I got a bit confused between the Quapaw and the Kaw, when I was trying to fit it all into my data. I now think I know what is Kaw, after Justin's intervention, but I'm but sure which is the Quapaw. Below is what I have got down. Could you let me know if I'm very wrong anywhere. Don't worry about the transcription if it comes out looking nonsensical at the other end. I think it is OK this end Kansa or Kaw hanaska 'how big, what size' hakhá_ how far, how long' háyo_ska how big, what size athaaha 'how deep' hána_ 'how many, how much hana, hano, hanomucte 'how many, much' athakka 'how tall' dáada_ 'what' ha, ho, hotha, tatta 'what, why' hakhá_da, hagójida_, athatta 'when (future)' hakhá_go 'when, at what point of time' hagóha, hakidede 'where, in which direction' ówage`ji 'where, to what places' wiá_ma 'which, which one' be, howa 'who' háago, hagó haki, hanitta, honitta 'why' Quapaw háyoska 'how big, what size' hakha? 'how far, how long, when' hána 'how many, how much' hagójida 'when, at the time, because' hakha?go 'when, at what point or time' hakha?ada, -a? 'when, at what future time? hówage`ji 'where, to what places' hagóha 'whither , where to' wia?ma 'which, which one' háagohagó 'why' Bruce --- Justin McBride wrote: > Ho, zaaníN, > > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's > Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks > and stress marks on > the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question > marks and unmarked > vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, > since we were actually > having some other problems with our @kawnation.com > email server at the time. > But, of course, I was worried that it may not have > come through on someone > else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran > through his wordlist and > converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got > his permission to post > the plain text version to the Siouan List. > > Enjoy! > -jm > > --------------------------------- > > hw[be, be? > def[who. be?ittáabe whose is it? > > hw [bées^ki > def[whoever, who + indefinite > > hw[dáadaN > def[what, something > > hw[dáNaNska > def[something, thing > > hw[háago (JOD), hagó (MR) > def[why? wherefore? > > hw[hagó (MR), hágo (JOD) > def[why? > > hw[hagóodaN, -ó· (MR) > def[why, how come, for what reason > > hw[hagóha > def[where, whither, where to? > > hw[hagój^idaN (JOD) > def[when, at the time, because > > hw[hakháN > def[how far?, how long?, when? > > hw[hakháNda, -áN· (MR) > def[when, at what future time? > rem[v. hakháNj^i > > hw[hakháNgo (JOD) > def[when, at what point or time > > hw[v. hakháNj^i, -áN· (MR) > def[when, at what past time? > rem[v. hakháNda > > hw[hakháNs^ke (JOD) > def[sometime or other > > hw[hakháNz^i (JOD) > def[distance, at no great, not far > > hw[hánaN > def[how many, how much? > > hw[háyoNska > def[how big, what size? > > hw[hówa + positional article > def[where is the X shaped obj.? > > hw[hówage`j^i > def[where, to what places > > hw[hóNoNs^ki (JOD) > def[random, at, in no particular > rem[place. > > hw[wiáNma (JOD) > def[which, which one? > > hw[wiáNmas^kidáN (JOD) > def[whichever, whichever one > > hw[wíaNmatta (JOD) > def[whose is it? Which one are > rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' > > > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 1 19:09:53 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:09:53 -0500 Subject: Quapaw WH-words redux. Message-ID: Bruce, Here is the Quapaw file again. Note the different font. Bob WH words from Quapaw. There are often doublets with nasal A and nasal O. In a few instances initial /h-/ seems to be missing. Common Dhegiha /th/ comes out as /th/ in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw but /kh/ in Kansa and sometimes in Osage. The font here is SIL SSDoulosL for the PC (not Mac) as modified by John Koontz. Unfortunately I haven't converted my Quapaw file over to Gentium and Unicode yet. The font can be downloaded from John's website. While I was in Melbourne D.N.S. Bhat, the Indian scholar, did a typology of Q words for his native language (a Dravidian language). He had an interesting framework that might be helpful. I don't know where or when he might have published the study. hw[athâha] def[how deep] pos[Q] prv[analog of Kansa hakhâ-] hw[athàkká (?)] def[how tall, how high] pos[Q] rem[aTàKa in JOD] hw[athâttai tte] def[future time, at some] rem[aTâTai Te in JOD] hw[athâttà] def[when, in future] rem[v. hathàtta] def[forever] pos[adv] rem[cf. bdoka. aTâTe in JOD] hw[ekíëi] def[somewhere else, elsewhere] pos[adv] hw[ekkíttàthô] def[time, from that same on] pos[adv] rem[probably -thà at end, not ttò = from (RLR)] hw[be] def[who] pos[Qprn] rem[interrog.] hw[béaëi] def[nobody] rem[cf. be, beniëi] hw[béniëi] def[everyone] pos[n] hw[haké hitté, haké itté] def[wherever, anywhere] hw[háki] def[why, for what reason] pos[Q] hw[hákidede] def[where, which direction] pos[Q] hw[hákidedéthà] def[where from, from whatever place] pos[Q] rem[This -Tà is probably -thà = from (RLR)] hw[hakíthà] def[from whatever place] rem[This -Tà is probably -thà 'from' (RLR)] hw[hanáhitte] def[few, a, however many (?)] rem[v. hanaitte] hw[haná itte] def[however much or many] rem[v.hanahitte] hw[haná ìké] def[some] hw[hánaská] def[how big/small, what size] pos[Q] hw[hánaska nânà] def[how big (is) each, (distributive)] pos[Q] hw[hánaskáska] def[how big (is) each, (distrib.?)] pos[Q] hw[hánaskáska hitté] def[whatever size, however big] rem[-ska iTé] hw[hanâ, hanô] def[how much, many] pos[Q] hw[hanâhide] def[however many/much] 1sg[v. also haná] rem[v. -hitté] hw[hánòmuçte (CS)] def[how much, many] pos[Q] rem[v. hanà; -u- is unexplained] hw[hathâttà] def[when (in the future)] rem[also athâttà] hw[hathâtti] def[when, at what time] pos[Q] rem[haTâTi] hw[hà, hò] def[what, how, in what manner] pos[Q] rem[in compound] hw[hànîttà, hònîttà] def[why] pos[Q] hw[hâthàhí, hâttàhí (?)] def[once upon a time] pos[v?] rem[hâTàhí. Appears to be related to hathâ 'when', q.v.] hw[hitté] def[indefinite prn., (what)-ever] hw[hówa (OM)] def[who] pos[Q] hw[hówada-(positional)] def[where is/are the (class) obj?] pos[Qdem] hw[hówathettáthà] def[from what sg/st/in or cl/in] pos[Qdem] 1sg[nearby] rem[howaTeTaTà] hw[hówathettíthà] def[from what sg/st/in or cl/in] pos[Qdem] 1sg[far away] rem[howaTeTiTà] hw[hówatta] def[whose] pos[Q] rem[howa+itta] hw[hówaëi] def[nobody (JOD)] pos[prn] rem[nowhere?] hw[hôthà] def[why? (?) (when? RLR)] pos[Q] rem[hôTà] hw[hôthàhi (?), hâthàhi] def[then, at length] rem[v. hàthàhi, cf. Kansa hakhâ-?; hòTàhi in JOD] hw[hôthe, hôtte (?)] def[why, how] pos[Q] rem[v. hà] hw[táttà] def[what, something] pos[Q/n] rem[TáTà] hw[táttàëí] def[nothing] pos[n] rem[v. táttà] hw[wattí (?)] def[why, wherefore] rem[No Osage cognate found; waTí JOD] From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 19:44:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:44:24 +0100 Subject: Siouan Wh-words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Was anyone able to supply Winnebago? I think one Winnebago word turns up in my data, though I'm not sure who supplied it Bruce ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/ From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 20:18:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 21:18:24 +0100 Subject: Quapaw WH-words redux. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob Bruce --- "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Bruce, > > > > Here is the Quapaw file again. Note the different > font. > > > > Bob ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 01:13:10 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:13:10 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <003501c66d2d$0b1884f0$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Thanks - I was in the same boat! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 02:02:44 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:02:44 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <004401c66d35$a0cab010$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > u, v. to wound > > awá e aú, I have wounded it (=á-u-á-ye aú ?) > yúa e aú, hiN, have you wounded it? This really is weird! You've hit all the nails on the head nicely. I wonder what the OP and OS slips say! > Furthermore, the verb is made all the trickier by the fact that some > of the salient details of its construction, i.e., the o root and the y > element of the causative ye, bear striking resemblances to the usual > epenthetic glides w and y that emerge in certain casual speech environments > and that may be omitted generally as non-phonemic. Here, though, they're > not epenthetic at all. Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two further, the forms here are something like A1 a-o a e au A2 y(a)-o a e au A3 o-be au I take it that hiN is a question particle? Kind of reminds me of French "hien?" The a e is problematic as a causative, as you point out. One thing to ask about is the -e in =be. I think the Osage plural-proximate has variants pi ~ pa ~ pe, in which a and e are perhaps male and female declarative particles, a bit like OP ha and he in the older texts (replaced for males by hau today). If the -e in =be is at all amenable to this, then perhaps the A3 form is: A1 a-o a e au A2 y(a)-o a e au A3 o-b e au (actually plural, of course) I'm not bothered by the stacked declaratives. That's a frequent Siouan pattern. But the e ought to be the feminine declarative, while I assume au is masculine. And this still doesn't account for the a in the A1 and A2 forms. Perhaps the a or ae reflect a reduced version of a "suddenly" or "aorist" modal. You find sequences like dheadhe and dhedhadhe (yeaye 'I cause to go' and yeyaye 'you cause to go') attached to OP verbs, along with other such inflected forms, with the reading 'suddenly' or 'began to', and they are inflected in parallel with the main verb. They are also (in speech) highly reduced and hard to hear properly. In short, the context where you expect to hear yaye as 'a'e (using ' in the English sense), thoygh maybe not yeyaye as 'a'e. A1 a-o a (y)e au A2 y(a)-o (y)a (y)e au It occurs to me also that the third person we are using here is from an example, not the paradigm. Maybe it is in a different aspectual context and lacks the auxiliary. > taciyaNmaká é= dji ú= be aú, Cayáni abá: [the knee] it LOC A3 wound PLUR DECL Cheyennes the the Cheyennes wounded him on his knee I'm not trying to parse out taciyaNmaká, though it looks like it has either ak[h]a or kh[a] 'the'. Notice that 'to wound' takes the place wounded as a locative complement. The person wounded is the (here implicit) object. Are there any other unexpected a e sequences at the end of verbs before au? From lameen at gmail.com Tue May 2 10:54:27 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:54:27 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <44520C25.31169.55B12B@localhost> Message-ID: Thank you, everybody who replied to this question! Several people expressed interest in reading the essay; now that I've handed it in, it can be downloaded from: http://lameen.googlepages.com/reduplicationinSiouan.doc The main conclusions were that: * Proto-Siouan-Catawban (and Proto-Siouan-Yuchi, but not Proto-Macro-Siouan) productively formed pluractionals from verb stems by full stem reduplication. Every branch of the family exhibits reflexes of this process, although these have often been affected by semantic extensions and morphological contractions. * Stoney "adversative" reduplication is most probably borrowed from a Salish language. Lameen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue May 2 23:36:53 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:36:53 EDT Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish to be on the program, please send the title of your proposed paper or presentation to rgraczyk at aol.com by email or as an email attachment. Mailing address for those who wish: Randolph Graczyk, PO Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066. A brief abstract or description of your topic would also be appreciated. The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference has traditionally been quite informal and open. Language-related topics ranging from very technical linguistics to methods and problems encountered in teaching Siouan and Caddoan languages, language preservation and revitalization, etc., are all welcome. Presentations may be formal and read aloud or they may be open discussions of particular problems and topics. Time slots for presentations will be 30 minutes unless more or less time is specifically requested by the presenter (we will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is anticipated that there will be participation from members of the Crow Nation and others involved in language teaching and revitalization efforts. Any special requests for equipment such as projector, tape recorder, computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk as soon as possible. There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for participants ($5 for students) to cover the costs of coffee-break refreshments. The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain College, a small private college (about 900 students) located in Billings, Montana. Lodging will be available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an apartment-style facility with units of four bedrooms with a common kitchenette and living area. The cost will be $24 per night. If you are planning to stay at the college, please let Randy know as soon as possible; the college will need a number beforehand. Campus recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise equipment, etc.) will be available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time of the conference, depending on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food service will also be available on campus. Billings is served by several major airlines; if you need a pick-up at the airport, please contact Randy. There are also numerous motels in Billings; check your favorite travel websites for information. Please let us know if you plan to attend the conference, even if you are not planning to give a talk, so that we will know how many people to expect. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC Announcement & Call for papers.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 27136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 3 14:57:22 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:57:22 +0100 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy I attach an abstract Yours Bruce --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN > LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE > > Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 > > LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana > > ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish > to be on the program, > please send the title of your proposed paper or > presentation to rgraczyk at aol.com > by email or as an email attachment. Mailing address > for those who wish: > Randolph Graczyk, PO Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066. A > brief abstract or description of > your topic would also be appreciated. > > The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan > Conference has traditionally > been quite informal and open. Language-related > topics ranging from very > technical linguistics to methods and problems > encountered in teaching Siouan and > Caddoan languages, language preservation and > revitalization, etc., are all welcome. > Presentations may be formal and read aloud or they > may be open discussions > of particular problems and topics. Time slots for > presentations will be 30 > minutes unless more or less time is specifically > requested by the presenter (we > will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is > anticipated that there will > be participation from members of the Crow Nation and > others involved in > language teaching and revitalization efforts. > > Any special requests for equipment such as > projector, tape recorder, > computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk > as soon as possible. > > There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for > participants ($5 for > students) to cover the costs of coffee-break > refreshments. > > The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain > College, a small private > college (about 900 students) located in Billings, > Montana. Lodging will be > available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an > apartment-style facility with units > of four bedrooms with a common kitchenette and > living area. The cost will be > $24 per night. If you are planning to stay at the > college, please let Randy > know as soon as possible; the college will need a > number beforehand. Campus > recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise > equipment, etc.) will be > available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time > of the conference, depending > on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food > service will also be available > on campus. > > Billings is served by several major airlines; if you > need a pick-up at the > airport, please contact Randy. There are also > numerous motels in Billings; > check your favorite travel websites for information. > > Please let us know if you plan to attend the > conference, even if you are not > planning to give a talk, so that we will know how > many people to expect. > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: resemblances between #56321.doc Type: application/msword Size: 32768 bytes Desc: 2193023135-resemblances between #56321.doc URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 17:15:38 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:15:38 -0600 Subject: [S**m:0007 Sp**Score] Re: Dakotan T-words ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It occurs to me that it's probably a good idea to delete Spam ratings from titles if your system inserts them into posts you receive, since some folks may be filtering things with "spam" in the subject into the bit bucket. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 18:41:18 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:41:18 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <001c01c66c0b$e006cd20$e34c133f@JIMM> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Some time ago, the list was addressing the conjugation of the verb "?o'" > (?ó) [wound] which occurs in many Siouan Languages. While looking for > something else, in "A Dictionary of Everyday Crow", Crow Agency > Bilingual Education Program. 1987 (revised), I came upon: > > 1. uua' (v tr) /uu/ shoot -- on p.20. No conjugations were provided. > Then > In "Crow word list", Lowie. 1960. p.170: > u': (u) to shoot, wound, hit > > ma u' om they shot some (game) > > akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k > one of the Cheyenne headcutters) I shot > > u'ak arapapa'ce de'sa ka'te tseruk > when they hit him, the bullet did not go in I make these bauuo-m 'they (diff subj) shot something' (ba)buu-k 'I shot them' (not sure about the ba-) uua-k 'he wounded (hit) him' (or 'it hit him'?) Looks like in Crow this is a regular verb with the stem uu-, the citation form uua, and the plural stem/citation form uuo. However, I am puzzled about when -a- appears, and unsure about bma-/a- (presumably the old familiar wa-). Also from the DEC: > 2. oo'xpe (v tr) /i/ shoot, wound -- p.x; 20: > He... oo'xpik; They... oo'xpuuk > I... boo'xpik; We... boo'xpuuk > you... doo'xpik; You (pl) doo'xpuuk > Shoot! oo'xpih; Shoot! (pl) oo'xpaalah I believe this is also regular, for Crow verbs with initial oo-, and I'm guessing the oo- is a locative, with the actual root being -xpe. > I also note that Hidatsa "Wordlist", Jones. Preliminary Version, 1979: > 1. Shoot u?u-axbi; ni?i > 2. Shoot & hit ú?u I think Hi u?u matches Cr uua, and that both forms suggest *?uu(-e) (-e being the theme forming vowel) or perhaps *uu?-e. This wouldn't be the first Siouan glottal stop form in whichb it wasn't clear if the glottal stop was initial or final. They seem to be a supersegmental characteristic of the root, diachronically, rather than a segment with a fixed position. Actually, I think the historical vowel here is *oo-, so *?oo-e. > 3, Shoot at írigi; ni > (No conjugations offered) Not related, I think. > Now then... Does any of the above shed any new light on arriving at > likely conjugations for the verb - ?o' (?ó). Could this be a word that > conjugates similar to the IOM: ?uN' (?ún = to do, make; act as/ in > manner of), namely: I... ha?uN'; you... ra?uN'; we... hin?uN'wi; > etc. I'd say, yes, though of course this is simple guesswork. In such matters you have to have a citation to be sure. For Winnebago, Marino's dictionary based on Radin's lexical slips, has (p. 126): ?o 'to shoot' ?onaN 'to shoot' (with declarative =s^aNnaN ~ =naN) [i.e., 'he shoots'?] ha?onaN 'I shoot' s^?onaN 'you shoot' (I've modernized and rendered into network notation Radin's BAE-style notation, retained by Mary in her dissertation.) In Mississippi Valley Dakotan and Dhegiha suggest m- for the first person of glottal stop stems. Since all glottal stop stems but 'wound' begin with a nasal vowel (and usually end with it, too), this is presumably *w-. Winnebago and IO (following Jimm) have ha- from regular *wa-, probably a simple replacement. For example, Winnebago ha?uN 'I make'. Presumably this was *muNuN in PMV Siouan. Perhaps if the original first person of 'wound' was *woo-e (*woo?e maybe?), and regular fist person *wa- becomes *ha- in IO and WI, then *woo-e became *hoo-e. Recent attested forms like ha?oo in Winnebago could be back-formations "undoing the contraction" or simple replacements. In MV Dakotan has n- for the second person, presumably from s^n-, which seems to have been taken over from the nasal version of the y-stem (*r-stem) paradigm. Dhegiha has z^- < PMV *y-, consistent with the PS A2 regular inflection *ya-. In a few verbs with preceding i- we find s^n- and developments of that. In Winnebago we find s^?- in the second person, in which the ? is actually a part of the stem. IO seems to have replaced a form like that with ra-?- in 'to make'. In Dakotan (mostly) and in Winnebago we also find k?- in *ki- derivatives. In Dhegiha we find *k- (OP g-). I've suggested in the past that the waffling in respect of ? when a consonant prececdes, e.g., in the second peson and *ki forms, implies that the glottal stop stems were actually vowel-initial. In that case, ?, when it occurs is by analogy with contexts in which it occurs epenthetically, e.g., between vowels, perhaps, or initially. Another approach arises from the "supersegmental" character of ? i ?-stems. Perhaps Dhegiha z^- reflects a situation in which the glottal stop has been forced to the end of the stem, while Winnebago s^?- and various cases of k?- reflect cases where it appears stem-initially, perhaps as a result of some sort of canonical solidification of ? as an initial segment. In any event, 'wound' seems to be the only known glottal stop stem with an oral vowel. So if the IO glottal stop stem ?uN 'make' is inflected ha?uN 'I make, ra?uN 'you make', then by analogy o 'wound' might be ha?o 'I wound' and ra?o 'you wound'. If it were regular it would certainly be very similar, and an epenthetic glottal stop would take it the rest of the way. In support of this conclusion, when collectors of linguistic data omit inflectional information, they often mean to imply that a verb is regular. Unfortunately this might also reflect ignorance or oversight. Attestation is everything in a case like this. We simply don't know how the IO form was inflected at this point. To illustrate the risk in assuming a paradigm by analogy with 'to make', I can point out that OP baN 'to call out' is regular, though it starts with a b and OP has an active b-stem paradigm, e.g., A1 abaN, not A1 *ppaN. I think the stem is doubly inflected as regular over p-stem in Osage, however, i.e., appaN. Presumably it was a *p-stem in Proto-Dhegiha. Another example would be the only OP d-stem, daNbe 'to see, to look'. It was a pure d-stem in Dorsey's texts (I think there might be one or two exceptions), but today it is regular over d-stem, e.g., A1 attaNbe instead of earlier A1 ttaNbe. This is not to say that one couldn't "restore" something reasonable for 'wound' when in need of an inflected form for actual use. Speakers do this all the time, and even get it wrong, which, of course, is part of the process by which inflection changes in the first place. However, a form like this is the philological analog of modern paint replacing a peeled spot in an old work. From a purist point of view you have to say - or imply notationally - that the deduced paradigm is hypothetical. Instead of writing something like o [a?o, ra?o], one would ideally write something like o [maybe ha?o, ra?o] or o [ha?o, ra?o by analogy with uN]. So, while it's interesting to see comparisons outside IO that confirm the stem 'wound' as a PS glottal stop stem, only an IO example would confirm the IO pattern. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 19:09:24 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > u, v. to wound > > > > awá e aú, I have wounded it (=á-u-á-ye aú ?) > > yúa e aú, hiN, have you wounded it? > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > further, the forms here are something like > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > A2 y(a)-o a e au > A3 o-be au I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. A1 a-o-a e au A2 y(a)-o-a e au A3 o=b(i) e For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on OP. At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Wed May 3 19:28:55 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Randy: I am sorry to say I am not gonna be able to attend the conference. I have a book that I am supposed to finish by August 1st, and so I have decided not to go to any conferences or workshops this summer. I hope y'all have a wonderful and productive time. Willem de Reuse From rwd0002 at unt.edu Wed May 3 19:42:49 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503145722.39417.qmail@web26808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting shokooh Ingham : > Dear Randy > I attach an abstract > Yours > Bruce > --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: Dear Bruce: Thank you for attaching this very interesting abstract. Since I am not gonna be able to attend the conference, I wanted to point out to you one phonetic (not phonological) similarity between Cree and Lakota. Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) with Lakota kaka [qaqa] 'baby's word for grandfather' (as pronounced by an Oglala woman). I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s in the Northern Plains. All the best, Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 3 20:42:44 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:42:44 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > u, v. to wound > > > > awá e aú, I have wounded it (=á-u-á-ye aú ?) > > yúa e aú, hiN, have you wounded it? > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > further, the forms here are something like > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > A2 y(a)-o a e au > A3 o-be au I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. A1 a-o-a e au A2 y(a)-o-a e au A3 o=b(i) e For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on OP. At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 3 21:22:03 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:22:03 +0100 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503144249.65uq5i2te34ssgk0@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Dear Willem It sounds like Turkish. They do the same with kalpak 'hat' which sounds like qalpaq,a as in kara kalpak 'black hats'. When it is written in the Arabic script they often use the Arabic letter qaf for it. Thanks for pasing it on Yours Bruce--- rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote: > Quoting shokooh Ingham : > > > Dear Randy > > I attach an abstract > > Yours > > Bruce > > --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > Dear Bruce: > > Thank you for attaching this very interesting > abstract. Since I am not > gonna be able to attend the conference, I wanted to > point out to you > one phonetic (not phonological) similarity between > Cree and Lakota. > Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], > in the environment > of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least > as pronounced by > Buffy Sainte Marie) with Lakota kaka [qaqa] 'baby's > word for > grandfather' (as pronounced by an Oglala woman). > > I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s > in the Northern Plains. > > All the best, > > Willem de Reuse > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 3 21:34:34 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:34:34 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? initial root to PSi. The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau ([wa?u]). David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. > > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: "WOUND" > > > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > > u, v. to wound > > > > > > aw� e a�, I have wounded it (=�-u-�-ye a� ?) > > > y�a e a�, hiN, have you wounded it? > > > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > > further, the forms here are something like > > > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > > A2 y(a)-o a e au > > A3 o-be au > > I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks > has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < > PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of > Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun > *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. > > I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel > (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that > this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. > > A1 a-o-a e au > A2 y(a)-o-a e au > A3 o=b(i) e > > For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of > the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on > OP. > > At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by > comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a > punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. > > > > > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu May 4 11:08:20 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:08:20 +0200 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503144249.65uq5i2te34ssgk0@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Dear Willem, > Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the > environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as > pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the Plains and Montagnais varieties I came to hear. But also in the Turkish varieties I mostly hear around here or on TV the k/q allophony is not as pronounced as e.g. in Xalxa Mongolian. But then, also Turkish vowels even on TV aren't what they should be according to textbooks. An acquaintance from Istanbul used to complain a lot about that dreadful way of speaking... > I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s in the > Northern Plains. Me neither. At least according to how I remember Blackfoot, Tsuut'ina and Nakoda. All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 15:32:00 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:32:00 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: That's a really good point. David is probably on the right track, and by extension, the conservative (unattested) form for 'I wounded it' would then probably be *[b-o]. The only problem beside the lack of a form [uNk?ipi] is the consistent initial /h/ in 'come' in many of the other languages. But as I think we've said before, that H is probably an analogical development based on /hi/ 'arrive'. It remains to check the 1st du. and pl. forms of 'come' in Chiwere, Dhegiha, etc., although the 1st pl. forms, as I think John said, are notoriously poor preservers of [?]. Bob Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? initial root to PSi. The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau ([wa?u]). David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. > > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: "WOUND" > > > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > > u, v. to wound > > > > > > awá e aú, I have wounded it (=á-u-á-ye aú ?) > > > yúa e aú, hiN, have you wounded it? > > > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > > further, the forms here are something like > > > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > > A2 y(a)-o a e au > > A3 o-be au > > I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks > has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < > PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of > Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun > *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. > > I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel > (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that > this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. > > A1 a-o-a e au > A2 y(a)-o-a e au > A3 o=b(i) e > > For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of > the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on > OP. > > At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by > comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a > punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. > > > > > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu May 4 16:15:44 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:15:44 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 16:19:44 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:19:44 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Since Catawba does not possess a cognate to Siouan /hi/ 'arrive', but does possess the verb /hu:/ 'come', it is unlikely that the initial /h/ in the Catawba verb is analogical, which in turn suggests that the initial /h/ in the cognate Siouan verb is not analogical. Perhaps the reverse is true, i.e. that the /h/-less forms in Siouan are somehow analogical in Siouan, although I have not idea what the source for the analogy might be. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 4 17:11:37 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:11:37 EDT Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: We'll miss you, Willem. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 17:55:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Another interesting observation, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The verbs of motion form a systematic and symmetrical group of verbs and Catawba may have indeed had /hi/ at some point. It's just very hard to know these things with the state of Catawba what it was when Siebert and others did their field work. There are many other question marks. [h] is the regular reflex of initial glottal stop in Biloxi and apparently Tutelo, and there are h/? correspondences in Algonquian also, so some sort of areal passage of ?>h is a possibility, esp. in the SE. But the presence of /hu:/ in Catawba is a definite problem no matter what. Is the /h/ present throughout the conjugation (lack of consistency is a feature of the Siouan conjugation)? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 11:19 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" Since Catawba does not possess a cognate to Siouan /hi/ 'arrive', but does possess the verb /hu:/ 'come', it is unlikely that the initial /h/ in the Catawba verb is analogical, which in turn suggests that the initial /h/ in the cognate Siouan verb is not analogical. Perhaps the reverse is true, i.e. that the /h/-less forms in Siouan are somehow analogical in Siouan, although I have not idea what the source for the analogy might be. Blair From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 18:04:36 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:04:36 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: There is no real "TH" sound (as in "thin") actually attested in either Osage or Omaha/Ponca. The people who described this were likely hearing a version of S pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the back of the lower teeth -- in linguistic terms, a dental S. So Mark is right, as was Dorsey. Note that Dorsey's field work was done either earlier than Laflesche's. Since Osage and Omaha had S in Dorsey's time and S after Laflesche's time, it is entirely unlikely that they had TH for a few years in between. But there is a major problem with the use of c-cedilla. It represents not only S but also Z !! You just have to known which words have S and which have Z. Laflesche wrote si 'foot' and zi 'yellow' alike, but they are. of course, different. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 11:15 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: WHICH IS IT? In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 18:19:43 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:19:43 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu May 4 18:50:16 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:50:16 -0700 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <403.f34af5.318b9fbf@aol.com> Message-ID: This is interesting--no distinction between 3rd person singular and 1st person plural? Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 19:08:20 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:08:20 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: All sorts of unexpected homophony occur in mutating verbs. For example, the second person singular and the third person plural forms of -ka:n- 'see' are identical: y'a:nire: 'you (sg)/they see'; the second person plural and the third person plural of -kuN- 'give' are identical: w'uNre: 'you (pl.)/they give'; the first plural and third plural of -ra:- go are identical: n'a:re: 'we/they go'; the second singular, third singular, and third plural of -ya:- 'dig' are identical: y'a:re: 'you (sg)/he, she, it/they dig', etc. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 19:15:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:15:09 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Blair, Thanks for the information. Life just gets complicateder and complicateder, doesn't it? Each time I think I've found an answer, something comes along to raise more questions. I guess that's the "sport" of what we do. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 1:19 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 4 20:25:29 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:25:29 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: This is a late contribution to the 'wound' discussion. I'm behind on my e-mail. uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different subject' akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k 'one of the Cheyenne (headcutters) I shot': The last word is clearly buu'k 'I shot'. The ba is a puzzle, since the sentence has a lexical object and I wouldn't expect an indefinite here. One remote possibility: uu' is (or was) a doubly-inflecting verb. u'ak: This is uu'-ak; ak is the same subject marker. oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial verbs not accented on the first mora. It could be that oo- is a locative prefix, although these are regularly accented on the initial vowel in Crow: a', i', o'. There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:22:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:22:30 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal > prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. ... > Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not > germaine to the discussion. Well, not germane to that aspect of the discussion, but I think Jimm's primary concern is actually just what the inflection of the verb o(o) 'wound' was in IO, in the absence of attestation, and in that case the patterns in IO for uN(uN) are relevant, as are, perhaps, the ones in Winnebago. I think Jimm knows that this verb is one of the awkward ones, though, and he's looking for anything to shed light on the problem. I think it's likely that the verb was A1 *ha?oo, A2 *ra?oo, A3 oo, maybe A12 *hiN?oo, and that at some point before that (maybe most recently in proto-Chiwere-Winnebago) it must have been something like A1 *ha?oo, A2 s^?oo or *s^oo, A3 *oo, A12 *hiN?oo, to judge from the attested Winnebago forms. For that matter, I could imagine more complex possibilities like a second person *ras^?oo. The actual forms must have varied across time, and, given the number of different groups speaking IO c. 1800, they may well have been different in space, too. But for Jimm I think the question is less one of the reconstructive possibilities at given points, than a philological problem of what he is justified in putting in his dictionary and and an applied one of what he could suggest that would be speakers use. Philologically he can't put anything, I think, except A1 unknown, etc. But in an applied sense he might want to recommend something by analogy with uN or the regular paradigm, and I think the two are close enough to suggest a working answer. However the applied use reader would want to know that in this case the form is a guess, and, of course, a historical linguist would very much want to know what was attested and what was guesswork. > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an > oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun > allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom > line is that apparently we still don't know. See my comment on Randy's remarks. > An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions > of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those > forms be? .... > Would Dakotan have been {A1} *[bo], {A2} *[do], {A1}[bo], {A2} [no], > {A1} [mo], {A2} [no] or what? I'd guess PS A1 *woo, A2 *yoo, A3 *[?]oo, but more like PMV A1 *boo (maybe *woo), A2 *z^oo, A3 *oo. I'm pretty sure that the n in the second person of Dakotan glottal stems, e.g., nuN 'you do' is contamination from the y-stems (*r-stems), and so I plump for the Dhegiha second persons in z^-, e.g., OP z^aN as the model, over Winnebago s^?uNuN or Dakota nuN. The Dakota pattern is even seen in some verbs in Dhegiha, cf. OP 'the (sitting)': A1 miNkhe, A2 (s^)niNkhe ~ (s^)niNkhe=s^e, A3 dhiNkhe; or OP 'to interrogate': A1 imaNghe, A2 i(s^)naNghe, A3 iwaNghe ~ idhaNghe. (I think these are all OP forms, but other Dhegiha adds further alternates, including first persons on the order of *ibdhaNghe.) I suspect these verbs are just irregular glottal stop stems, unusual in that they have second and third persons on the *r-stem model, but showing their true colors in the first person. In the second case the -w- and -dh- after the locative i- are potentially epenthetic. It's not so clear what's happening in the first case. However, extra or epenthetic -dh- < PMV *r in these forms tends to explain how *r-stems manage to contaminate the *?-stems: the epenthetic *r in the third person is simply taken as organic and new second and/or first persons are produced, modelled on the *r-stems. If you consider that stems like *?uN 'to do' seem to have had derivatives like *i...uN 'to do with; to use', it begins to look like most *?-stems might have had a potential for *r-stem contamination. In addition, even if we consider *...(i)iNk(e)=...he and *i...uNx(e) not to be glottal stop stems, even if we decide they are a special kind of stem traceable to PMV, they do provide a basis for the analogical change of *?-stem second persons from *z^- or *s^- to *n-. We do have to assume that this n- is from earlier *s^n-, but it's pretty clear that l- in the second person of Dakotan y-stems (*r-stems) is from earlier *s^l-, too, so this shouldn't be a problem. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:41:34 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:41:34 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2006, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. > itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know > whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? > initial root to PSi. > The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start > coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double > conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I > can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare > verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau > ([wa?u]). I agree entirely that -u in hiyu looks like an oral gottal stop stem. It even has an epenthetic -y- in the third person. However, *?u (*hu ?) seems to be a special case. In addition, in Dakotan the vertitive is ku, not *khu. In fact, the vertitive stem is consistent with *ku elsewhere in Siouan, I think, cf. OP gi. But i < *hi 'arrive there', cf. OP hi, has a vertitive khi, cf. OP khi. Further confirmation that ?-stems have k-derivatives in k, not k? (or kh) is found in OP egaN 'be like that' (A1 egimaN, A2 egiz^aN, A3 egaN) which seems to be historically a dative 'thus wrt that' of e-aN 'thus; how is it that', based on the protean *?uN 'do, make'. However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. So Dakotan (hi)bu may well show the original form of the glottal stop stem inflection in the first person. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:54:29 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:54:29 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > David is probably on the right track, and by extension, the conservative > (unattested) form for 'I wounded it' would then probably be *[b-o]. > The only problem beside the lack of a form [uNk?ipi] is the consistent > initial /h/ in 'come' in many of the other languages. Yes, though as I never tire of pointing out, the h is *not* entirely consistent, unlike the h in *hi 'arrive there'. Actually Dakotan loses h in that, but losing initial h in verbs is consistent in Dakotan. Dakotanists are now going to wonder, "What about hi 'arrive here'?" But this h is from PMV *th, cf. OP thi 'arrive here'. Another example is *thu 'to copulate with'. Dakotan has hu; OP has (wa)c^hi, diminutivized from (wa)thi. > But as I think we've said before, that H is probably an analogical > development based on /hi/ 'arrive'. It might be analogical. I've read ahead to the Catawban data presented by Blair. The h here is a bit like the pesky extra *r (from my perspective, anyway) in OP dhiNkhe. > It remains to check the 1st du. and pl. forms of 'come' in Chiwere, > Dhegiha, etc., although the 1st pl. forms, as I think John said, are > notoriously poor preservers of [?]. Actually, I think there is some variability in duals (and vertitives) with the (standard, nasal) ?-stems in Dakotan, if I remember the sum total of forms in Buechel and Boas & Deloria. So, I tend to think that ? in Dakotan duals and vertitives and datives, and also in Winnebago second persons in s^?- is to some extent analogical. However, Jimm's Crow and Hidatsa examples drew my attention to the fact that Crow and Hidatsa have -?-e at the end of 'wound'. So I wonder to what extent ?-stems might be able to have ? show up at either end, at least in PMV. I think that Mandan tends to have *C?V appearing as CV?, too, in ejective sets, right? Anyway, it appears that ? in ?-stems is real enough. It's just not always very consistent about where and whether it pops up. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 02:26:03 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:26:03 -0600 Subject: WHICH IS IT? In-Reply-To: <06f301c66f96$57809560$f345133f@JIMM> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. > LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" > Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." > > Which way is it? Are they both correct? About the first thing I remember learning about c-cedilla in Osage is that nobody but LaFlesche heard it as theta. But LaFlesche uses c-cedilla for s and z in both Osage and Omaha(-Ponca) and clearly describes it as sounding like theta. When I was reading through the Dorsey files at the NAA c. 1985 I happened, quite by accident, on a note by Dorsey to the effect that s is pronounced s, except that some Omahas pronounce it as th(eta), among them Frank LaFlesche. It might have been on the first slip of the s's in Dorsey's slip file. After that I noticed that Alice Fletcher, whose fairly attrocious Omaha transcriptions are usually deservedly ignored, often wrote s as th, e.g., in transcribing the names attached to the houses in her map of the Village of Make-Believe Whitemen, i.e., Francis LaFlesche's home town, and the point of origin of many of the Omahas that Fletcher (and Dorsey) worked on. I don't remember an s-example at the moment, though, perversely, I do remember "Brontee" or bdhaN-thi 'odor arrives'. Though this might be rendered 'smelly' it probably refers to the scent of an animal reaching a character in a clan myth. My guess is that s was theta (and z was edh) in the dialect of the residents of the Village of Make Believe White Men. Perhaps it was Otoe influence? It wouldn't need to be, of course, but LaFlesche's mother was an Otoe, and the stories from the VOMBW residents talk a lot about interactions with the Otoes. The final piece in the puzzle is that the pronunciation key for the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary is essentially the same one he used for Omaha work, as is the transcription itself. Since the book was published postumously, without his help in the final stages, it's just possible he might have meant to revise the key to indicate that c-cedilla was pronounced like s in Osage, along with other similar comments. He may not even have written the key as such in this instance. It's the kind of thing that might have been left to the final editing. Incidentally, c-cedilla is the standard BAE character for theta. Dorsey uses it in transribing Ioway-Otoe theta. He turns it over to produce a "sonant" version - z or a muted s. Dorsey says somewhere in his notes that he prefers the inverted letters, but he wrote them in ms. with a little x under the regular letter. It appears that Francis LaFlesche, whether on his own or in response to a change in BAE policy, converted the little x into a dot. Or maybe it's just a coincidence? In any event, he uses under-dotted ptk for Dorsey's turned orinverted ptk, written ptk with a little x under them in the Dorsey mms. (And Buechel uses dots to indicate "lack of aspiration" in Lakota, too, I notice.) I sometimes wonder if Francis LaFlesche meant to put a little x or dot under c-cedilla standing for z, but decided that it got in the way of the tail of the cedilla. He definitely used the dots with ptk in Omaha. They are there in his ms. list of Omaha names of rivers, though they are missing throughout Fletcher & LaFlesche, including in this list. Although Dorsey and Fletcher both support theta, it's possible that the theta was simply a very dental s as Bob suggests. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 02:33:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:33:09 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <317.412c35a.318bbd39@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) > 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) For what it's worth, although these are amenable to interpretation as regular inflection (with loss of the pronominal vowel through contraction) they might just as well be the regular Crow reflexes of the glottal stop stem inflectional pattern. In fact, even if they went to the trouble of changing *buu (or *boo) to *bauu (or *baoo) and back again, I doubt we'd be allowed to write it up that way in a historical analysis. > Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different > subject' I was pretty close! Of course, I was using Randy's grammar as reference! > oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 > d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial > verbs not accented on the first mora. ... I have wondered if these > aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with > the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). That seems much more likely. I now remember you telling me this about some initial oo and me thinking it seemed likely that time, too! From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 5 12:50:35 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:50:35 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? In-Reply-To: <06f301c66f96$57809560$f345133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Jimm, The speakers routinely described the tailed-c as being either /s/ or /z/ in the F&LaF system. Grandma Elizabeth probably ignored the Omaha spelling, looked at the English gloss (or context of the word), and rendered the appropriate sound. So, tailed-ci could be 'zi' yellow, or 'si' foot. Not very useful for students who don't know the underlying possibilities. One particular example had stumped us for many years -- a female personal name that appears in several Omaha clans. noN tailed-ce iN tailed-ce noNseiNse? noNseiNze? noNzeiNse? noNzeiNze? None of my speakers could recall anyone with the name as a model for pronunciation. An Omaha tribal member who transferred to UNL last fall and got into our Omaha language class recognized it as belonging to one of his elder female relatives. It turns out the the fourth rendereing was it. Who could have known based upon the 2-sound possibilities for the tailed-c. washkoN-ga-ho! Uthixide Omaha Nation Public School and UNL have routinely been changing the tailed-c to the appropriate /z/ or /s/. Perhaps others on the List can address the /th/ question. Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/04/2006 11:15 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To "siouan at lists.colorado.ed" cc Subject WHICH IS IT? In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri May 5 14:19:13 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:19:13 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: Just put the tip of your tongue against the back of your lower teeth (the teeth in your jaw bone) and try to make an S sound. What do you hear? ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Re: WHICH IS IT? On Thu, 4 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. > LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" > Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." > > Which way is it? Are they both correct? About the first thing I remember learning about c-cedilla in Osage is that nobody but LaFlesche heard it as theta. But LaFlesche uses c-cedilla for s and z in both Osage and Omaha(-Ponca) and clearly describes it as sounding like theta. When I was reading through the Dorsey files at the NAA c. 1985 I happened, quite by accident, on a note by Dorsey to the effect that s is pronounced s, except that some Omahas pronounce it as th(eta), among them Frank LaFlesche. It might have been on the first slip of the s's in Dorsey's slip file. After that I noticed that Alice Fletcher, whose fairly attrocious Omaha transcriptions are usually deservedly ignored, often wrote s as th, e.g., in transcribing the names attached to the houses in her map of the Village of Make-Believe Whitemen, i.e., Francis LaFlesche's home town, and the point of origin of many of the Omahas that Fletcher (and Dorsey) worked on. I don't remember an s-example at the moment, though, perversely, I do remember "Brontee" or bdhaN-thi 'odor arrives'. Though this might be rendered 'smelly' it probably refers to the scent of an animal reaching a character in a clan myth. My guess is that s was theta (and z was edh) in the dialect of the residents of the Village of Make Believe White Men. Perhaps it was Otoe influence? It wouldn't need to be, of course, but LaFlesche's mother was an Otoe, and the stories from the VOMBW residents talk a lot about interactions with the Otoes. The final piece in the puzzle is that the pronunciation key for the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary is essentially the same one he used for Omaha work, as is the transcription itself. Since the book was published postumously, without his help in the final stages, it's just possible he might have meant to revise the key to indicate that c-cedilla was pronounced like s in Osage, along with other similar comments. He may not even have written the key as such in this instance. It's the kind of thing that might have been left to the final editing. Incidentally, c-cedilla is the standard BAE character for theta. Dorsey uses it in transribing Ioway-Otoe theta. He turns it over to produce a "sonant" version - z or a muted s. Dorsey says somewhere in his notes that he prefers the inverted letters, but he wrote them in ms. with a little x under the regular letter. It appears that Francis LaFlesche, whether on his own or in response to a change in BAE policy, converted the little x into a dot. Or maybe it's just a coincidence? In any event, he uses under-dotted ptk for Dorsey's turned orinverted ptk, written ptk with a little x under them in the Dorsey mms. (And Buechel uses dots to indicate "lack of aspiration" in Lakota, too, I notice.) I sometimes wonder if Francis LaFlesche meant to put a little x or dot under c-cedilla standing for z, but decided that it got in the way of the tail of the cedilla. He definitely used the dots with ptk in Omaha. They are there in his ms. list of Omaha names of rivers, though they are missing throughout Fletcher & LaFlesche, including in this list. Although Dorsey and Fletcher both support theta, it's possible that the theta was simply a very dental s as Bob suggests. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat May 6 18:01:07 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:01:07 -0700 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <317.412c35a.318bbd39@aol.com> Message-ID: Randy, > There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). > This seems to be the same prefix used in Biloxi: o-, as in ok(i)taho = to knock down by shooting, which seems to be a compound of o- (by shooting) + k(i)the (hit) + taho (fall). For whatever that's worth. Dave Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: This is a late contribution to the 'wound' discussion. I'm behind on my e-mail. uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different subject' akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k 'one of the Cheyenne (headcutters) I shot': The last word is clearly buu'k 'I shot'. The ba is a puzzle, since the sentence has a lexical object and I wouldn't expect an indefinite here. One remote possibility: uu' is (or was) a doubly-inflecting verb. u'ak: This is uu'-ak; ak is the same subject marker. oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial verbs not accented on the first mora. It could be that oo- is a locative prefix, although these are regularly accented on the initial vowel in Crow: a', i', o'. There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). Randy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 7 15:14:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:14:57 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. CR *?V > *V? > V (glottal disappears or is vocalized) HI *?V > *V? MA *?V > *V? BI *?V > *hV (word initial) TU maybe the same as BI but relying on only one "Saponi" transcription? > There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). > I've reconstructed the outer instrumentals from older incorporations of verbs nominalized by wa-. There are still some interesting irregularities to be ironed out, but this tends to account for accent, length and most of the segmental phenomena in these instrumentals. I seem to recall that Dakotan confuses the "na-" instrumentals and switches them around a bit, but everyone else seems to fall into line. For those using "legacy" email readers, there are some accented vowels in the chart below. I did these reconstructions several years ago and haven't gotten back to clean them up, but I suppose I stick by them for now. Anyone who can fill in blanks or make corrections, please feel free to do so. Outer instrumentals: by shooting by cutting by temperature PSi *wa?óo- *wahaa aRáa- CR oo- aa- alá- HI ha- ará- MA wá- rá- LA wo- wa- na- DA bo- ba- na- CH boo- ba- dáa- WI boo- maaN- taa- OP mó- má- na- KS bó- bá- dáa- OS pó- pá- táa- QU pó- pá- táa- BI adá- OF ata- TU ala~na- Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun May 7 18:55:10 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:55:10 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2006 9:16:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. The 'inside' locative prefix certainly fits the semantics of these 'shooting' verbs. And the movement of [?] to the syllable coda would account for the long, high pitch in the Crow forms. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 7 21:40:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:40:52 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. Bob ________________________________ > In a message dated 5/7/2006 9:16:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. > The 'inside' locative prefix certainly fits the semantics of these 'shooting' verbs. And the movement of [?] to the syllable coda would account for the long, high pitch in the Crow forms. > Randy From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 8 00:16:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 18:16:00 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: > *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics > of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to > me. One thing that's being left out of this is that Crow has a theme vowel with the 'wound' stem, so the verb is actually something like uua' in citation form, though the reduced stem uu' occurs in more contexts. Conceivably the -a is a support for a final ?. Hidatsa has u? ~ u?u. Since the CSD citation fails to mention the Crow theme vowel, I suppose it's possible that the Hidatsa form may omit something like that, too? On the other hand, I don't think I've ever had the impression that Hidatsa had anything like that in its morphology and I believe that pluralization is a bit different in Hidatsa. GH Matthews just has u to wound' and shows plurals of first and second persons (but not third) with added -ha. I seem to remember something like a?a in Wes Jones' description. Actually, I think the Crow theme vowels like this occur with all final ii and uu stems, but not those in ee and oo, and not with short vowel-final stems (discounting those that end in ua and ia in both stem and citation form). Most stems have citation forms that involve no change at all (ee, oo), lowering of the final vowel, e.g., from u to o, or i to e, or substituting e for a. Citation forms are used to answer the question "what is the word for X?" They are also the base used with -sh 'definite article', -m, 'indefinite, non-specific article', -n 'locative', -taa 'path', and -ta 'seem, resemble'. These last are also cases where -a to -e or extra -a- occurs in Mississippi Valley, which is one reason I am unwilling to simply discard the phenomenon here, writing it off as a Crow oddity. For example, Teton a=>e ablaut before -la 'diminutive', laka 'consider as' (for 'seem, resemble'), or Teton thiyata 'to/at the dwelling', mniyata 'at the water, or Omaha-Ponca ttiadi 'in(to) the dwelling', ttiatta '(up) to the dwelling', not to mention the OP animate articles a-kha (singular) and a-ma (plural). I don't know what typical examples, of -uu and -ii stems in Crow are, other than Randy's example of uu' 'wound', awuu' 'inside', kuluu' 'piled up', aashu'u 'his head', and pa'apii 'stir', and bi'tchii 'knife' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 8 01:08:36 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:08:36 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, > within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' > locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give > the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and > Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves > the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. But, against that, we only find the medial glottal u? ~ u?u in Hidatsa and the final glottal in (Hidatsa and) Mandan u?. Croww just has uu' ~ uua', though that implies ? per the reasoning you and Randy have put forth. And nowhere do we find a trace of the distinctive patterns of inflection with locatives that we find in Crow-Hidatsa (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) or Mississippi Valley (with standard CV-form pronouns in LOC-PRO-STEM). > Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal > feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption > that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the > onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. > > CR *?V > *V? > VV'(a) [revised per later comment] > HI *?V > V? ~ V?V [per CSD, but no idea what distribution is] > MA *?V > *V? [? appears when -e is added, etc.] > > BI *?V > *hV (word initial) > TU maybe the same as BI but relying on only one "Saponi" transcription? > I've reconstructed the outer instrumentals from older incorporations of > verbs nominalized by wa-. I'm afraid I'm still using a legacy mailer. I'm having problems with accented vowels when not on my home system, and I'm also having problems with telling who's saying what. I suspect people are falling back on different fonts or colors again. My apologies. I think I must be the only person having problems with this! > Outer instrumentals: > > by shooting by cutting by temperature > PSi *wa?o'o- *wahaa *aRa'a- PS(JEK) *w-?o'- *w-?a'- *w-ra'- > CR oo- aa- ala'- > HI ha- ara'- > MA wa'- ra'- PMV *Woo'- *Waa'- *Raa'- > LA wo- wa- na- > DA bo- ba- na- > > CH boo- ba- da'a- > WI boo- maNaN- taa- > > OP mu(u)'- ma(a)'- na(a)'- > KS bo'- ba'- da'a- > OS po'- pa'- ta'a- > QU po'- pa'- ta'a- > > BI oo'- (fide Kaufman) ada'-- > OF ata- > TU ala~na- I changed OP o to u. I think muu- and maa- are probably long, as well as naa-. Since there are cases where falling and level accents occur I think I might prefer VV' for level and V'V for falling. For example, I thin it would be (in OP), for mu(u)=se 'tosever with a shot': A1 mu(u)'=ase [mwa'ase] A2 muu'=dhase A3 muu'=sa(=i) Or, for a(a)'gdhiN 'to sit on' A1 a(a)'agdhiN A2 a'dhagdhiN A3 aa'gdhiN(=i) In the first persons I'm writing (V) where I'm not sure how to handle the situation orthographically. There I doubt we have a tripple long vowel senquence, but we have the consequences of combining VV' with V. Elsewhere I'm writing (V) to indicate probable length. Coming back to the PMV row I inserted, PS(JEK) *w-?o'- *w-?a'- *w-ra'- I notice that *W accounts more or less for the faintly possible first persons of *?oo 'wound' based on Teton A1 hibu for A3 hiyu and on the Crow inflection (can't tell from *w- and *r-). The 'shoot' and 'cut' instrumenhtals show the *W set in MVS. Maybe PS *w?- > PMV *W and PS *w-r- > PMV *pr ~ *R. The 'heat, spontaneous' set in *w-ra'- might be more complex, given the a- intials in CH and SE. As far as length and accentuation, I think these forms are long or show the accentual consequences of it (initial accent) in MV, but I've also noticed that the first persons of *r-stems are accented like this: A1 *p- rV(V)'... A2 *s^-rV(V)'... A3 rV...' in MVS, per the behavior of OP and Winnebago: OP Wi A1 b -dhV(V)'... dVV...' A2 s^-nV(V)'... s^V-rVV...' A3 dhV...' rV...' So a contracted CV => C syllable in the prefixal morphology seems to count as a mora in itself. (Incidentally, Jimm, thanks for starting a very interesting discussion, all around!) From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 8 14:19:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:19:09 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: > But, against that, we only find the medial glottal u? ~ u?u in Hidatsa and the final glottal in (Hidatsa and) Mandan u?. Croww just has uu' ~ uua', though that implies ? per the reasoning you and Randy have put forth. And nowhere do we find a trace of the distinctive patterns of inflection with locatives that we find in Crow-Hidatsa (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) or Mississippi Valley (with standard CV-form pronouns in LOC-PRO-STEM). Actually, Ofo has just that pattern (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) with its regular pronominals. But with reflexes of the old irregular (consonantal) pronominals the locatives always precede the prns. Crow and Hidatsa generally lack that conservative pronominal morphology that would allow us to check for older patterns. We're gonna have to get John a decent unicode-compliant email reader. The spam filters are good enough now that one needn't worry about being overwhelmed. The new one here at KU gets all the spam and very little else. Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon May 8 17:24:56 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:24:56 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2006 3:47:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. I have found about a dozen stems where the Hidatsa has V'?V, and the Crow has VV', e.g., Hi kure?e Cr kulee' 'keep'. There are others, however, where Crow preserves the accentual pattern of the Hidatsa while losing the glottal: Hi ate'?e Cr asi'i 'appear', so the data is mixed. In general, accentual patterns in Crow and Hidatsa cognates are often unpredictible. We have a lot to learn in this area. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon May 8 17:34:20 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:34:20 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: I have tended to interpret the Crow citation forms as a mostly phonological innovation, since Hidatsa seems to lack them. Crow seems to have decided that it doesn't like words that end in i(i), u(u) or aa. There are exceptions, however, since vocatives (always) and adverbs (mostly) do not use the citation form. However, the fact that there are several suffixes that follow the citation form rather than the stem, as John notes, leads one to wonder if there isn't a deeper historical explanation. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 8 18:07:59 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:07:59 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Yep, the relationship between accent, pitch, laryngeal and segmental features is a wide-open area in Siouan phonology. I did a paper for one of the Mid America MALC volumes several years back in which I related V?V sequences (where the Vs are identical) to phonemic falling pitch, with examples from Ponca, Quapaw, Biloxi and a few from Hidatsa. The Ponca cases provided very nice recorded examples in which the falling pitch "bottomed out" in the middle of a long or geminate vowel resulting in either [creaky voice] or [?] generated between the two halves of the VV sequence. This often resulted in a "broken vowel", as SE Asianists like to call them. So an earlier falling pitch (high pitch on the 1st mora) might be something to look at in phonetic [V?V] sequences. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Mon 5/8/2006 12:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" In a message dated 5/7/2006 3:47:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. I have found about a dozen stems where the Hidatsa has V'?V, and the Crow has VV', e.g., Hi kure?e Cr kulee' 'keep'. There are others, however, where Crow preserves the accentual pattern of the Hidatsa while losing the glottal: Hi ate'?e Cr asi'i 'appear', so the data is mixed. In general, accentual patterns in Crow and Hidatsa cognates are often unpredictible. We have a lot to learn in this area. Randy From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon May 8 20:09:09 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:09:09 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > > a'qtaN How possible? > > I'm thinking that the reading for this one is more like "how on earth" than "how can," but I'd be very interested to heat the contemporary take on this! I think the morphosyntax is a=xt(i)=aN, with aN being the aN that appears more below. Yes, I think we're trying to represent the same idea in English. This seems to be a rhetorical question word expressing astonished skepticism about a previously mentioned idea. It is usually found in combination with the potential marker after the concept. I had some trouble at first getting our speakers to recognize it, but the elder one finally did in a sentence that I think she partially volunteered: A'qtaN at?e' tte ? How is it that I should die? expressed, perhaps, by an older person accused by their doctor of being about ready to drop into their grave. "I'm too tough to die!" > Is there a variant eaxtaN, or am I crossing this up with something else? If there is, I haven't run across it yet. > > e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] > > In effect "who on earth"? Or perhaps: "Who the heck do you think you are?" This is Rabbit's response to the giant after the latter's first sally of verbal abuse. >> E'be who? > > See if you can find a consistent difference between e'be and ebe'. Dorsey suggests there is one. This could be right or wrong. I asked our younger speaker about this. She thought for a moment and answered that she didn't think ebe was ever accented on the first syllable: ebe', never e'be. The word I pulled from Dorsey was marked as e'be. > I gather than no one hears a difference between these today? I think that there is one in the texts, along the lines of indefinite (no particular answer imagined) vs. definite (some particular set of answers imagined, i.e., more like which). No, our speakers recognize the difference. We (Mark and I) have had a little trouble with the semantics, but I think your explanation comes close to the mark. Our younger speaker has tried to explain the difference to us a couple of times, and she keeps coming back to the idea that eda'daN is more exact or specific than iNda'daN. > [...] except that there are those aNwa or awaN forms meaning 'other'. (In which w is often m.) There is an aN'ma, 'other', which seems to be rather rarely used. I'm not familiar with an aNwa variant. > > atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) > > Hmm. I wonder if this is atH(e) + aN=xti 'when on earth', by analogy with (e)axtaN 'how on earth' and eaNxti 'who on earth'. Perhaps etymologically, but I'm pretty sure that atHoN' is a question word in its own right both today and in the 19th century. In Dorsey it seems to be used to ask about time, i.e., the word for 'when'. For asking about what time it is today, the answer seems to be mi'daNbe a'naN ?, "How many hours?", or mi'daNbe atHoN' (a)?, "Hourwise, how long?" Our younger speaker told me that atHoN' by itself, unqualified by mi'daNbe, means "How long", e.g., for the length of a board. (I've checked and confirmed that the t is aspirated.) > [...] For 'why' it's (e)attaN. (I've nver been quite sure if it was =ttaN or tHaN here.) It's =ttaN. I checked with the speakers on this, and it is definitely tense. Also, they deny that attaN can ever be used alone; it must be ea'ttaN. The plain attaN version is from Dorsey. > Since the inspiration came to me that -e in various contexts is a "cleft" or "focus" marker, I've tended to see the intial e-'s in question forms in that light, but fused proclitically to the following element rather than enclitically to the preceding. I've generally understood the initial e- in forms like edi, egaN, etc. to be a generic 3rd person pronoun that is used to wrap up the preceding complex noun phrase into a singularity that can then be dealt with grammatically in a standard way. It would be about like certain dialects of English that allow: The guy that was here to paint the house and got Mom's cat out of the tree, he got into an accident on the way home. with e- in Omaha used like he in the above English sentence. Is this what you mean by a "cleft" or "focus marker"? Rory From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue May 9 01:38:25 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 20:38:25 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Yes, John, indeed I was looking for what may be an appropriate entry to be included in my revised IOM dictionary. And as you suggest below, an anology may be the best possible, in the light of little solid evidence from the related languages. So I have received an answer from the unforeseen in-depth discussion that I could not have imagine being generated by one small term that has only been rendered in the 3PP texts of a handfull of IOM statements. Thanks again, to Bob and everyone contribution, and excuse me for tying up the List for so long. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:22 PM Subject: RE: "WOUND" > On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal >> prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. ... >> Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not >> germaine to the discussion. > > Well, not germane to that aspect of the discussion, but I think Jimm's > primary concern is actually just what the inflection of the verb o(o) > 'wound' was in IO, in the absence of attestation, and in that case the > patterns in IO for uN(uN) are relevant, as are, perhaps, the ones in > Winnebago. I think Jimm knows that this verb is one of the awkward ones, > though, and he's looking for anything to shed light on the problem. > > I think it's likely that the verb was A1 *ha?oo, A2 *ra?oo, A3 oo, maybe > A12 *hiN?oo, and that at some point before that (maybe most recently in > proto-Chiwere-Winnebago) it must have been something like A1 *ha?oo, A2 > s^?oo or *s^oo, A3 *oo, A12 *hiN?oo, to judge from the attested Winnebago > forms. For that matter, I could imagine more complex possibilities like a > second person *ras^?oo. The actual forms must have varied across time, > and, given the number of different groups speaking IO c. 1800, they may > well have been different in space, too. But for Jimm I think the question > is less one of the reconstructive possibilities at given points, than a > philological problem of what he is justified in putting in his dictionary > and and an applied one of what he could suggest that would be speakers > use. > > Philologically he can't put anything, I think, except A1 unknown, etc. > But in an applied sense he might want to recommend something by analogy > with uN or the regular paradigm, and I think the two are close enough to > suggest a working answer. However the applied use reader would want to > know that in this case the form is a guess, and, of course, a historical > linguist would very much want to know what was attested and what was > guesswork. > From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Tue May 9 07:33:52 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:33:52 +0200 Subject: 2006 SCLC In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy, my name is Johannes Helmbrecht, and currently I am assistant professor at the linguistic department of the University of Erfurt, Germany. One of my main research areas is the Hocank (Winnebago) language. This year, I plan to attend the Siouan and cadoan Linguistics Conference and in particular the Workshop on Comparative Siouan Grammar. I will present a paper on this workshop with the title "Applicatives in Siouan languages", but not on the SCLC. I need some help with regard to the organization of my trip to Billings,MT. First of all, I need an accomodation for the time, I will be in Billings and I would like to ask you to make a reservation in the Rimview Hall you mentioned in your mail. Could you arrange this? I arrive in Billings on Thursday, June 15 at 10:22pm in the night and I will leave on Wednesday June, 21 in the afternoon after the Comparative Siouan Grammar Workshop. Secondly, since I will arrive pretty late on Thursday, I would like to ask you if it is possible to get picked up from the airport on Thursday night? A third question. I collect data on applicatives (corresponding to Hocank a-, o-, i-, and gi- REC/DAT applicative) in Siouan languages. Do you have more up to date information on these grammatical forms in Hidatsa/ Crow than Matthews (1965) and Lowie (1941)? Best, Johannes Rgraczyk at aol.com schrieb: > 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN > LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE > > Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 > > LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana > > ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish to be on the > program, please send the title of your proposed paper or presentation > to rgraczyk at aol.com by email or as an email > attachment. Mailing address for those who wish: /Randolph Graczyk, PO > Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066./ A brief abstract or description of your > topic would also be appreciated. > > The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference has > traditionally been quite informal and open. Language-related topics > ranging from very technical linguistics to methods and problems > encountered in teaching Siouan and Caddoan languages, language > preservation and revitalization, etc., are all welcome. Presentations > may be formal and read aloud or they may be open discussions of > particular problems and topics. Time slots for presentations will be > 30 minutes unless more or less time is specifically requested by the > presenter (we will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is > anticipated that there will be participation from members of the > Crow Nation and others involved in language teaching and > revitalization efforts. > > Any special requests for equipment such as projector, tape recorder, > computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk as soon as possible. > > There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for participants ($5 > for students) to cover the costs of coffee-break refreshments. > > The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain College, a small private > college (about 900 students) located in Billings, Montana. Lodging > will be available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an > apartment-style facility with units of four bedrooms with a common > kitchenette and living area. The cost will be $24 per night. If you > are planning to stay at the college, please let Randy know as soon as > possible; the college will need a number beforehand. Campus > recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise equipment, etc.) > will be available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time of the > conference, depending on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food > service will also be available on campus. > > Billings is served by several major airlines; if you need a pick-up at > the airport, please contact Randy. There are also numerous motels in > Billings; check your favorite travel websites for information. > > Please let us know if you plan to attend the conference, even if you > are not planning to give a talk, so that we will know how many people > to expect. -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universität Erfurt - Philosophische Fakultät Seminar für Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Tue May 9 07:52:06 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:52:06 +0200 Subject: my apologies for the last mail Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I am very sorry, the last mail was meant to reach Randy personally and not to be distributetd to the list. Johannes -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universität Erfurt - Philosophische Fakultät Seminar für Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 9 14:40:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:40:45 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: > and excuse me for tying up the List for so long. Heck, don't apologize. This is how we all learn stuff. It's what the list is for. bob From Aspriska at aol.com Tue May 9 15:24:40 2006 From: Aspriska at aol.com (Aspriska at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:24:40 EDT Subject: tonal phenomena in the Siouan languages Message-ID: Hello everybody! My name is Anthony (Tony) Kent. Although I have had both the pleasure and benefit of having corresponded with several of you in the past, I felt the time was finally appropriate to address you all. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend the upcoming conference in June, so this seems to be the best option. I am an American who has been living and working in Europe for the past 20 years or so. (I'm a professional musician: singer, pianist, conductor, teacher). Last year I completed my masters in phonetics at the University of Hamburg, where I am now beginning my doctoral research. The topic of my dissertation is "Tonal Phenomena in the Siouan Languages". Before dealing with actual phenomena observed in Siouan languages, I will first be presenting and comparing data on numerous tone and pitch accent languages. I hope that this will then shed a better light on just how to interpret what has been (or remains to be) found in Siouan. I would greatly appreciate any assistance, advice, or suggestions anyone may wish to offer. I am particularly keen on any tips regarding any of the Siouan languages, but comments or evidence regarding other tonal languages or pitch accent languages - especially those native to North America - would equally be most welcome. I wish you all a great conference and many thanks in advance for your time and help! Tony Kent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 10 20:59:51 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:59:51 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 10 20:57:29 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:57:29 -0500 Subject: Today's Lincoln, NE paper. Message-ID: There's a nice article in today's Lincoln, NE newspaper on the Omaha language project. http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2004/08/25/local/10054255.txt Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu May 4 13:40:28 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:40:28 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <4459FCC4.12215.4B4C81@localhost> Message-ID: Quoting Heike Bödeker : > Dear Willem, > >> Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the >> environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as >> pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) > > Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the > Plains and Montagnais varieties I came to hear. Dear Heike: According to the biography below, she was born on the Qu'Appelle Cree reserve in Saskatchewan. http://www.creative-native.com/biograp.htm Our Algonquianist friends can surely tell us what the Cree dialect must be on that reserve. My contact with Cree is as limited as one can imagine: I heard Buffy count on the mike before a performance on TV! Her pronunciation of the [k] in peyak struck me. I have done a fair amount of fieldwork on Lakota, but can only remember this one Oglala friend with the [k] in kaka that struck me. So it could all be coincidence and idiosyncratic pronunciations. Best regards, Willem From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed May 10 22:24:12 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:24:12 -0700 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy Bob, I was not at the Conference. However I did some research for you. Based on a Nebraska Humanities Speakers Index I found online at the following URL... ( http://www.nebraskahumanities.org/speakersindex.html ) ...I'm guessing that the person you are referring to might be: David Lee Smith Director of Indian Studies Little Priest Tribal College Winnebago, Nebraska Winnebago Traditional Stories for Contemporary Times 402-878-2976 (H) 402-878-2380 (W) timsmith at huntel.net Hope this helps some, Jonathan "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed May 10 23:18:04 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:18:04 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060504084028.kg4foa2ul6xkcsww@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains Cree. I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. Dave > >> Dear Willem, >> >>> Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the environment of >>> [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as pronounced by Buffy >>> Sainte Marie) >>> >> Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the Plains and >> Montagnais varieties I came to hear. >> > Dear Heike: > > According to the biography below, she was born on the Qu'Appelle Cree reserve > in Saskatchewan. > > http://www.creative-native.com/biograp.htm > > Our Algonquianist friends can surely tell us what the Cree dialect must be on > that reserve. > > My contact with Cree is as limited as one can imagine: I heard Buffy count on > the mike before a performance on TV! Her pronunciation of the [k] in peyak > struck me. I have done a fair amount of fieldwork on Lakota, but can only > remember this one Oglala friend with the [k] in kaka that struck me. So it > could all be coincidence and idiosyncratic pronunciations. > > Best regards, > > Willem > > From shanwest at shaw.ca Thu May 11 01:32:19 2006 From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:32:19 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yup, Qu'Appelle is definitely Plains Cree. I grew up very close to it. Shannon At 04:18 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote: >I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains >Cree. > >I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. > >Dave From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu May 11 12:48:02 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:48:02 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are referring to Andy Thundercloud Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. I do not know of his current status. I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. 402-878-2380 P.O.Box 270 Winnebago, NE 68071 Regards, Mark Awakuni-Swetland UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/10/2006 03:59 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Need help with name. Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Thu May 11 13:14:32 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:14:32 +0200 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, if you are looking for Andy Thundercloud - he moved recently to Wisconsin and works at the Hocank Wazija Haci Language Division in Mauston,WI. I met him there several times this spring. If you call up the people there, you will have a chance to get him on the phone. The phone number is: 608-847-5694 or 800-492-5745. Best, Johannes Mark J Awakuni-Swetland schrieb: > > You are referring to Andy Thundercloud > Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in > Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for > awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on > the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed > zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested > his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization > effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. > > I do not know of his current status. > > I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. > 402-878-2380 > P.O.Box 270 > Winnebago, NE 68071 > > Regards, > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > UmoNhoN ie thethudi > Omaha Language Spoken Here > > > *"Rankin, Robert L" * > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 05/10/2006 03:59 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > > To > > cc > > Subject > Need help with name. > > > > > > > > > > Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from > the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan > Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but > I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed > program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest > College or in the school system there. > > Bob > -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universität Erfurt - Philosophische Fakultät Seminar für Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 14:08:32 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:08:32 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: The backed pronunciation of K seems to be fairly common. Even in the SE I noticed it frequently among speakers of Muskogee Creek. And the Micmac spell their name Miqmaq nowadays, don't they? I assume this may represent a uvularized pronunciation. I haven't heard it among Siouan speakers that I recall though. Bob > I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains Cree. > I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 14:29:25 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:29:25 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project the tribe is undertaking. Knowing that the man who talked at the conference had been a medic AND was interested in the language, I wanted to make sure the KU guy looked him up. I could remember just about everything he said except his name -- a common failing I have, and age hasn't helped. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thu 5/11/2006 7:48 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Need help with name. You are referring to Andy Thundercloud Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. I do not know of his current status. I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. 402-878-2380 P.O.Box 270 Winnebago, NE 68071 Regards, Mark Awakuni-Swetland UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/10/2006 03:59 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Need help with name. Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu May 11 14:49:30 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:49:30 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, in Micmac spelling, 'q' is used for the straight velar fricative [x], which is often voiced. Dave > The backed pronunciation of K seems to be fairly common. Even in the SE I > noticed it frequently among speakers of Muskogee Creek. > > And the Micmac spell their name Miqmaq nowadays, don't they? I assume this > may represent a uvularized pronunciation. > > I haven't heard it among Siouan speakers that I recall though. > > Bob > >> I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains >> Cree. >> I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 15:04:15 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:04:15 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: Back to the future! Sounds like John Wesley Powell's idea of [x]. ________________________________ > Actually, in Micmac spelling, 'q' is used for the straight velar fricative [x], which is often voiced. From rlundy at huntel.net Thu May 11 20:34:43 2006 From: rlundy at huntel.net (rlundy at huntel.net) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:34:43 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Might be Andy Flying Cloud... ---- Original Message ---- From: rankin at ku.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Need help with name. Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:59:51 -0500 >Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from >the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan >Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, >but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the >printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little >Priest College or in the school system there. > >Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 15:54:50 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:54:50 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <402.1793d27.3190db1c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > However, the fact that there are several suffixes that follow the > citation form rather than the stem, as John notes, leads one to wonder > if there isn't a deeper historical explanation. The Crow theme vowel-citation forms do have a very "automatic" feel to them, and since, as Randy mentioned, they are missing in Hidatsa, it is unclear, within Crow-Hidatsa, whether Crow or Hidatsa innovates. But, not only are the theme vowel forms before suffixes suggestive within Crow, but the suffixes in question seem to be cognate with suffixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan that have the same behavior. So, I think we can assume that Hidatsa is the innovator, not Crow. This whole area, however, is one that involves either a small group of irregular relicts (as in Dakotan and in some Omaha-Ponca cases) or a rather generalized, automatic situation (as in Crow or Omaha-Ponca), so no doubt there is some work to be done with it. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 15:57:38 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:57:38 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The Ponca cases provided very nice recorded examples in which the > falling pitch "bottomed out" in the middle of a long or geminate vowel > resulting in either [creaky voice] or [?] generated between the two > halves of the VV sequence. This often resulted in a "broken vowel", as > SE Asianists like to call them. So an earlier falling pitch (high pitch > on the 1st mora) might be something to look at in phonetic [V?V] > sequences. Kathy Shea suggested to me that this "stod" behavior might be one diagnostic (in slow speech) for long vowels in OP. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 16:10:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:10:11 -0600 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the > Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project > the tribe is undertaking. I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? I think this is one of the two or three in his series of Wisconsin ethnobotanies that were left unpublished when he and his family were killed at a railroad crossing during a weekend drive. One of the others was Iroquian, though I've forgotten which. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri May 12 16:18:30 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago > ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? See Bob Rankin's comments: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9901&L=siouan&D=1&P=542 Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 18:17:42 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:17:42 -0600 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: <4464B556.2030107@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago > > ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? > > See Bob Rankin's comments: > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9901&L=siouan&D=1&P=542 Touche! How many times have I recommended searching the archives to someone! From rankin at ku.edu Fri May 12 19:05:11 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:05:11 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: This particular biologist, Kelly Kindscher, reelicited the H.K. Smith ethnobotany in cooperation with Kenny Funmaker's language program in Mauston several years ago and later published it in a botanical journal. I had passed along a copy of the Smith MS to him. This is a journal that requires abstracts in a second language, and in this case that language is Hocank -- probably a unique event! The Nebraska tribe now wants him to help them obtain a better, and active knowledge and understanding of their tradition and he's agreed to help them. He's the author of books on medicinal and food plants of the Prairie. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Fri 5/12/2006 11:10 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Need help with name. On Thu, 11 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the > Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project > the tribe is undertaking. I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? I think this is one of the two or three in his series of Wisconsin ethnobotanies that were left unpublished when he and his family were killed at a railroad crossing during a weekend drive. One of the others was Iroquian, though I've forgotten which. From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri May 12 22:51:37 2006 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:51:37 -0600 Subject: Koontz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So many gifts, so little time! Thanks for your emails. Currently recovering from a back operation. I am enjoying hearing what you know and can compare with the various Siouan groups. Billy From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sat May 13 17:23:17 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 13:23:17 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:02:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: The Crow theme vowel-citation forms do have a very "automatic" feel to them, and since, as Randy mentioned, they are missing in Hidatsa, it is unclear, within Crow-Hidatsa, whether Crow or Hidatsa innovates. But, not only are the theme vowel forms before suffixes suggestive within Crow, but the suffixes in question seem to be cognate with suffixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan that have the same behavior. So, I think we can assume that Hidatsa is the innovator, not Crow. This whole area, however, is one that involves either a small group of irregular relicts (as in Dakotan and in some Omaha-Ponca cases) or a rather generalized, automatic situation (as in Crow or Omaha-Ponca), so no doubt there is some work to be done with it. This is interesting. John, what are the Mississippi Valley suffixes that behave the same as the Crow suffixes that follow the citation form? Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 17 08:05:46 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:05:46 -0600 Subject: Crow Citation Form and MVS Theme Form (Re: "WOUND") In-Reply-To: <365.4124d15.31977005@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > This is interesting. John, what are the Mississippi Valley suffixes that > behave the same as the Crow suffixes that follow the citation form? Warning - I now proceed to beat this topic to death! Comparing Crow Citation Forms with Moribund Mississippi Valley Theme Formation Morphology; Cognates and Functional Similarities Between Crow Suffixes Conditioning Citation Forms and MVS Enclitics Conditioning Thematic Forms Crow citation form discussion after Graczyk draft grammar, 2.5.12. All Crow stems end in vowels. There are no nasal vowels at present, and all possible short and long oral vowels occur as stem finals, as well as the two diphthongs ia and ua. The relation of stem form to citation form, Table 6: Stem Ending : Citation Form Ending : Formation of Citation Form i : e (= ee) : lowering ii : iia : schwa off-glide u : o (= oo) : lowering uu : uua : schwa off-glide e (= ee) : e ( = ee) : invariant short (mid) ee : ee : invariant long (mid) o (= oo) : o (= oo) : invariant short (mid) oo : oo : invariant long (mid) a : e ( = ee) : short ablauting aa : ee : long ablauting ia : ia : invariant diphthong ua : ua : invariant diphthong The annotation V (= VV) for o and e refers to RG's comment that all mid vowels are essentially long, though the popular orthography writes some as short. Notice that "short e" and "short o" alternate with themselves (invariant short mid pattern), with short a (short ablauting pattern), and with short i or u (lowering pattern). Final e and o utterance-final or in isolation are pronounced [] and []. Except for ablauting stems then, one might say that final i and u lowered to e and o, similarly, in citation forms. Lowering e => o => i => e u => o a not lowered, but ablauted Perhaps short e and o are sometimes just contextual variants of short i and u, and so truely are short? Not exactly a pure phonemic analysis, but students of vowel harmony and Eskimo schwa have often found similarly awkward neutralizations. (JEK, not RG, waxing heretical.) The stem is the base for addition of most suffixes. The citation form is the un-suffixed form, and the base for a few suffixes. The citation form is also the form used to answer "What's the word for ...?" The citation form of nouns is common, but verbs tend to occur with post stem suffixes. Suffixes that attach to the citation form are: -sh definite article (also with names? JEK) e.g. 'the man' -m indefinite, non-specific article e.g. 'a horse' -n locative e.g. 'in, on' -taa path e.g. 'along' -ta 'seem, resemble' Ignoring the invariant cases, it appears that the behaviors associated with citation forms are lowering of high short vowels, schwa off-glides of long high vowels, and ablauting of a and aa to e and ee, respectively. Nothing so far said addresses the question of accentual shifts in connection with citation form or adding of these suffixes. Randy has discussed some of this with Bob on the list recently. So, note Stem : Citation Form : Suffixed Citation Form bili' 'water' : (bilee' ?) : bile'esh 'the water' bi'tchii 'knife' : bi'tchiia short u? awuu' 'inside': awuua' : awu'uan 'inside' e'hche 'know' : e'hche bachee' 'man' : bachee' : bache'esh 'the man' awa' 'earth' : (awe' ?) : awe'en 'on the ground' long a? bi'a 'woman' : bi'a : (bi'ash 'the woman' ?) bua' 'fish' : bua' : (bu'ash 'the fish' ?) I am not sure the forms listed exhaust the accentual patterns, but it looks a bit as though the citation forms here were exhibiting V1(V1)' + V2 + suffix, where the deleted vowel V2 merges with V1(V1)' as low mora of a simplified V1'V1. (This is more or less [=la] what Randy and Bob were discussing.) So perhaps stems besides the long high final vowel stems add schwa in their citation forms, but it is absorbed phonetically by the preceding vowel under some conditions. Mississippi Valley Cognates of Suffixes to Citation Forms -sh def art < *=s^ (cf. Mandan =s) Maybe an irregular reduction of *=ki via *=k? OP animate proximate articles are =akha +/- singular and =ama ~/- plural. The OP obviative proximate article =ma collective shows that a- is added in =ama. Proto-Dhegiha forms would be *=a-kha *=a-Wa *=Wa Here we see noun + a + article, but -a- is reanalyzed as part of the article. Note also the Winnebago article =ra ?< *=ya, comparable to the Dakotan postvocalic -ya variant of the -a "stem forming" vowel, as in wiNyaN 'woman' ~ wiN- (combining form) iNyaN 'stone' ~ iN- (combining form) heya 'louse' ~ he- (combining form). Here we see again noun + a forming the definite or independent form. Winnebago may generalize *=ya to replace *-a ~ -ya, and substitute noun + a for noun + a + article. -m indef art Cognate presumably with *wiN-a-, *waN 'a, one'. No evidence on thematic form with MVS indefinites. -n locative < *-r. May be an irregular reduction of PS *=tu, cf., Dakotan pattern for *tu. For *=tu consider: OP =di locative: 'in, at' ('to' with motion verbs) Os =ci Ks =j^i On the whole these suggest PDh *=ti (?), but I think that PDh *=tu is correct, taking Dakotan into account. The Os and Ks forms may simply unround in final unstressed position? Te =tu ~ =l Sa =tu ~ =d etc. suggest PDa *=tu ~ *=R, where *R is regular from *t in final position. -taa path < *taa Seems a good match for MVS *=(k)-ta 'to(ward)', though it might be *thaN 'from', too! OP =tta 'to' ('toward' with motion verbs) Os =tta Ks =tta PDh *=tta < *=hta Te =ta, but =k-ta after e 'the aforesaid' he 'that' The extra -k- with demonstratives explains the *=hta form in Dhegiha. The source of this *-k- is not clear. Perhaps *ki 'the'? OP =di=thaN 'from' < 'in' + thaN =tta=thaN 'from' < 'to' + thaN Te =taNhaN < *=ta=thaN (*th > h in Dakotan) The interesting thing about the Dh and Da locative forms is that they condition inserted -a- after some nouns, e.g. OP tti' 'dwelling' + di => tti'a=di but Te thi'=l (I don't think we ever find *-ya=l or *-ya=tu.) OP tti' 'dwelling' + tta => tti'a=tta Te thi- + ta => thiya'=ta Dakotan makes up for lacking -ya- with *tu by using it with -takiya 'toward' and -taNhaN 'on that side, from'. Te thi + takiya => thiya'=takiya, etc. Dakotan =tu conditions the e-grade of ablaut in nouns. -ta 'seem, Compare the Dakotan diminutive. resemble' Te =laka 'consider as' (dependent verb) Te =la diminutive I think the Dakotan diminutive derives from readings like 'a so-called X', 'a sort of X', 'something that would pass for an X', 'x-like'. English use of -kin: panikin, manikin, munchkin, etc., seems similar. The Dakotan diminutive conditions the e-grade of ablaut in some nouns including the -ye variant of the stem forming -e e.g. s^uNkwiN'ye=la 'mare' s^ahi'ye=la 'Cheyenne' So, to summarize: Crow has -a (including perhaps some covert cases) or a => e ablaut to mark the citation form, and that is used in "independent" (unsuffixed) contexts and with certain suffixes in the class of articles, postpositions, and 'seem, resemble'. MVS has -a ~ -e to mark what I've been called themes, i.e., nouns in independent contexts (not compounded). Thematic forms in *-(y)a are fossilized before certain locatives, and extra a- prefixes some classes of articles in Dhegiha. The e-ablaut grade occurs in Dakotan before one locative (=tu) and before the diminutive which seems to have a 'seem, resemble' origin. The most likely cognates for the actual conditioning suffixes (Crow) or enclitics (MVS) are PS *wiN-a- 'one' : Cr -m indef art : Te waN indef art : OP wiN indef art PS *=tu : Cr -n : Te =tu ~ =l : OP =di : Os =ci : Ks =j^i loc PS *=thaN path : Cr -taa path : Te =(taN)haN 'side, from' : OP =thaN extent, from-compounds and/or PS *=k-ta 'to' : Cr -taa : Te =(k)-ta- 'to' : OP =tta 'to' Less secure is PS *ki def art : Cr -s^ def art : Te ki(N) def art : OP ... A certain amount of irregularity is involved in the sound correspondences, and often patterns are somewhat variable, but I think the general pattern is clear enough. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 19 16:54:46 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:54:46 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. John, my understanding is that OP has ppi, 'I came', for the A1 of i, as well as pHi, 'I went', for the A1 of hi. I'm pretty sure I've gotten our speakers to agree to this on more than one occasion. Is that not what your information shows? I believe s^i works in both directions. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 22:00:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:00:09 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > > However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the > > stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but > > vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, > > but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an > > h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. > > John, my understanding is that OP has ppi, 'I came', for the A1 of i, as > well as pHi, 'I went', for the A1 of hi. I'm pretty sure I've gotten our > speakers to agree to this on more than one occasion. Is that not what your > information shows? I think it's: PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) Da u ku i (vert khi) Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there A1 phi ppi phi A2 s^i s^ki s^i A3 ai=i agi=i ahi=i > I believe s^i works in both directions. In a sense, per the above, but not for gi. This sounds like a result of the serious difficulties that exist in asking questions about deitics and directional verbs in an abstract context. (Been there; done that!) Siouanists get used to dealing with these verbs in terms of the careful "pro forma" definitions offered by Dorsey, etc., but speakers, or at least those of today, take a more pragmatic, contextual approach. They don't map to the "pseudo-Siouan" 'come back' or 'travel hither again', they just map to the contextual equivalent in English. And since there are slew more Omaha distinctions than English makes, and a certain number of homophonies and irregularities, it can be very difficult to sort things out. Fortunately, I started with Dorsey and Taylor. My rule of thumb is that you can get any English motion verb (come, go) as a translation of any Omaha motion verb if you keep track. When you throw in arrive, reach, get to, be here/there, etc., it get a bit more illuminating. Same interchangeability of English demonstratives and Omaha demonstratives. When I first elicited ga and dhe, I was told they meant 'this' and 'that' respectively. I filed this away under "the education of a field linguist; crossreference: figure out later" and kept going. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 19 23:05:59 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:05:59 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > I think it's: > > PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) > Da u ku i (vert khi) > Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) > > stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there > > A1 phi ppi phi > A2 s^i s^ki s^i > A3 ai=i agi=i ahi=i > >> I believe s^i works in both directions. > > In a sense, per the above, but not for gi. I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> u-umlaut? Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I came', rather than ppi? In A3 at least, it seems that gi has been expanding at the expense of i, certainly at least in the command form. Might this have happened with A1 as well? Pragmatically, the vertitive form isn't necessarily that clearly distinguishable from the plain form. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 21 07:00:41 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:00:41 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. You meant A2, right? > So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: > > stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there > > A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi > A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi > > with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> > u-umlaut? That's more or less what I assume. It's not clear what's going on with *s^-h or *p-k, but presumably those are something like the PMV or PS forms. Those are the "logical" forms. However, I think that for PDh, given the correspondences, I'd opt for *s^-u and *s^-i (without h) in the second person of the h-stems and, by the same argument, for *p-ku I'd opt for *h-pu, since we get OP ppi, Os hpu, etc. For PDh *kaN-dha 'to want' the fisrt person might be *h-kaN=p-ra, cf. OP kkaN'=bdha. The Dhegihanists will recognize that 'to want' is the only k-stem (or g-stem) that has "kk" in the first person. The others have "pp," like OP ga'ghe 'to make': A1 ppa(a)'ghe, A2 s^ka(a)'ghe. There aren't many k-stems, of course, but it's about 5 to 1 in favor of "pp," which is PDh *hp. It appears that *p- (or *b- or *w-) 'first person' comes out h before another stop consonant, which is normal, since clusters of stop + stop ending in p come out the same, e.g., *pte 'cow bison' > PDh *hte > OP tte. How far the *h-p treatment of the first persons of *k-stems goes is an interesting question. I actually have a published article in IJAL discussing a pair of forms from Buechel (pp. 449, 465), pointed out to me by Allan Taylor, which suggest that Teton may have had A1 phu, A2 s^ku for the first and second person of ku until fairly recently. These are the regular Teton reflexes of *hpu and *s^ku, and that suggests that the *hpu/*s^ku pattern for *ku goes back to Proto-Mississippi Valley. > Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I > came', rather than ppi? Yes, though, of course, it doesn't mean 'I came', but 'I arrived there' or some other more componential meaning which would be translated contextually as 'I came' (if the speaker sees themself [!] as at the point of arrival, but the hearer as not. Or it could be translated 'I arrived', etc. Returning to the place where a relative is lying near death.) 90:147.9-10: ... eathaN s^ki=a? ... ... why you came back QUESTION ... ... i'wippahaN=tt= egaN ppi ... ... I know you IRREALIS CONJUNCT I headed back here ... '... why did you come back here? ... I came back so I would know what happened) to you ...' Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: 90:122.7-10 ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION why have you come ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha he had come boy the Buzzard explains to Haghige that he has been over to the camp of the watermonsters to doctor the young of the monsters: 90:254.4-5 ... a'daN ze'=wadhe phi'= ha ... therefore to doctor them I went (arrived there) DECL ... s^i'= the=di a'wa=th=e=giz^aN=s^naN=a ... you got there the (place) at I think I've gotten all three contrasts here, and in ways that show the stem involved. I'm not sure that the standard glossing of u and dhe as 'be en route here' and 'be en route there' works here. "Set out for ..." doesn't seem much more promising. It may be focus - whether the arrival or the direction is more salient. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 21 07:39:04 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:39:04 -0600 Subject: Motion Verbs (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) Correction! (vert *khi) > Da u ku i (vert khi) > Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) > > stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there You can check this out easily in Allan Taylor's 1976 article on Siouan motion verbs in IJAL. A couple of footnotes help with that: - The u in Ks and Os is u-umlaut, not i-bar. Allan misunderstood something Bob told him. - The proposed *rh set occurs in a fair number of words, not just *rhi 'to arrive here'. In fact, I think this is usually regarded as *th these days, though some cases of it may arrive from *r(V) + h, e.g., 'to arrive here' < *re (or *ru?) + *hi 'to arrive (there)' (Bob's suggestion). - Allan barely scratches the surface of the compounding issue. I've debated the initial of OP 'to come' with Bob Rankin a number of times. I've never been able to find a clear case of hi (without a- and =i) that seems to be come. There are some i, I think. However, as far as I can remember hu appears in Ks and Os and hi in Qu. That makes the third person of *(h)u 'come' and *hi 'arrive there' homophonous if the vowel u shifts to i, as it does in OP. That may be one reason for not having *hi in the third person of 'come'. Siouan languages have a high tolerance for homophony, but only if it can be cleverly distinguished somehow in the cases that would be ambiguous. Bearing in mind that these are "raw" stems and that "motion toward" tends to become "start toward," in some languages. motion toward arriving here there here there regular vert regular vert regular vert regular vert PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi Para ?- k- r- reg reg reg h- reg Te u k-u yA g -lA -hi g -li i k-hi OP (h)i g-i dhE g-dhE t-hi g-dhi hi k-hi Ks hu g-u yE -lE c^-hi -li hi k-hi Os hu k-u dhE -lE c-hi -li hi k-hi Qu hi k-i dE k- dE t-hi k- di hi k-hi IO hu g-u rE g- rE -j^i g- ri hi -gi Wi huu g-uu rEE kE-rE -j^ii ki- ri hii -gii Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih I've notionally treated initial *t in *thi as a prefix, though this is purely a matter of internal reconstruction. Only the vertitive suggests it within MVS, i.e., perhaps *k-ri < *k(i)-r(e)-hi, with reduction of *krhi to *kri. Based on the pronouns one would expect *kathi or maybe just *kithi for this vertitive. I've written initial dash on forms where a change in consonantism is now used to reflect a previous prefix (*t- and *k-). This is a common development in Siouan. The motion verbs are a hotbed of "syncopated" or "irregular" inflection. The stem *(h)u may originally have been inflected A1 *W-u, A2 *y-u as a glottal stop stem, but appears except in Dakotan hiyu as an h-stem or regular. The stem *hi appears as an h-stem (A1 *phi, A2 s^i) or as a regular. The stem *ku appears as a k-stem (A1 *hpu, A2 *s^ku) or as a regular; *re is, of course, an r-stem (A1 *p-rE, A2 *s^re). The rest begin with clusters (or aspirates) and are regular (e.g., *wa-thi, A2 *ra-thi). Or maybe "regular" means "requiring an epenthetic vowel -a- to break up a three element cluster due to prefixation." Dakota has regularized a lot, as has Mandan. IO and Winnebago haven't so much regularized as been driven to supplementing the irregular paradigms with regular prefixes because sound changes have erased the syncopating pronouns. The final consonants in the Mandan forms reflect a consonant that appears before certain endings, e.g., -o?s^ 'declarative' and disappears finally or before other consonants. So 'I came' would be wahuro?s^. Taken together it is hard not to believe that final -h corresponds to stem initial aspiration elsewhere. The disappearing finals in Mandan are -r, -h, and -?, sometimes -?r. We know that some Mandan dialects had different endings for some words (a list from Maximilian analyzed by Dick Carter), so it appears that "final" behavior has been subject to some degree of analogical restructuring of these transitions. So, for example, a -r form may represent something else. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 22 08:28:39 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:28:39 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > It appears that *p- (or *b- or *w-) 'first person' comes out h before > another stop consonant, which is normal, since clusters of stop + stop > ending in p come out the same, e.g., *pte 'cow bison' > PDh *hte > OP > tte. I guess this was sloppy phrasing - I mean that *p A1 is reduced to preaspiration before another stop. Butthe important factor here is that appears that *k-stems behave in the first person (only) like *p-stems in Dhegiha in all but one case, with 'want, desire' being the only exception, This seems to say something about assimilation of stops in *pk clusters, but it over-simplifies things to say that *pk > *hp, since we have a verb 'I want' and a noun 'turtle', in which *pk appears to act as *hk, as in 'I want', with no assimlation. In addition, outside of Dhegiha and the one isolated Dakota example mentioned, *hk appears with all known *k-stems. PS Ma PMV Da OP Wi 'turtle' *pke pke *hke khe(ya) kke kee 'I want' *pkuN- +++ *hkuN- +++ kkaN- +++ 'I come back' *pku +++ *hpu ~ *hku (?) phu ppi kuu 'I make' *pkaghe --- *hpaghe ~ ??? +++ ppaghe +++ 'I immitate' *pkuNs --- *hpuNze +++ ppaNze +++ 'I donate' *pka- +++ *hpa- +++ ppadhe +++ 'I don't *pkuN- ??? *hpuN- ??? ppaNz^iNga ??? know how to' +++ => the cognate form inflects by another pattern, or doesn't inflect, or has unknown inflection, and so doesn't bear on the situation. I think *ku 'to come back' is the only *k-stem attested in Winnebago or Ioway-Otoe. For that matter, *ku is the only *k-stem in Dakotan, so to speak. But the phu example might be the first person of u 'come', instead, even though, as we've seen, *bu looks like a better bet for an old Dakotan form. Normally the first persons of these stems are the regular forms waku and wau, of course. OP gaN-z^iNga 'to not know how to' might be 'to little desire to', in which case it would have *p-stem first person with the same stem *gaN- that gets the *k-stem treatment. In that case, apart from the Dakota case of phu 'I came back' (?), *p-stem first persons for *k-stems begins to look like a Dhegiha idiosyncracy. The only *t-stems, are *a...ta 'to see', *tuNp ~ *tuN- 'to see', and maybe *ta 'wake up' (?) (cf. Te kikta 'to awaken'). *P-stems are fairly common, though most are formed with the instrumentals *pa- and *pu-. Perhaps any tendency to *h-p in the *k-stems is simple analogy with *p-stems. One further oddity about *kuN 'want'. This stem does not palatalize in Dakotan. I keep collecting these oddities, and periodically I trot them out, hoping that someone will think of something illuminating. I haven't yet myself, but this time around I did notice that 'to want' tends to be formed with an *o-locative. Ma o...kuNh 'to want something' (and notice that final h!) Te o...kuN, kuN, kuNla (only first part inflected) OP gaN=dha (both parts inflected) IO guNra (regular? only first part inflected?) Wi roo...guN (regular) But then, *(w)o- prefixes occur with other *k-stems, too, e.g., Wi wooga 'gift', wooguNs 'creator'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 22 09:12:02 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 03:12:02 -0600 Subject: Motion Verbs (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > motion toward arriving > here there here there > regular vert regular vert regular vert regular vert > > PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi > > OP (h)i g-i dhE g-dhE t-hi g-dhi hi k-hi > Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih > > Taken together it is hard not to believe that final -h corresponds to > stem initial aspiration elsewhere. The disappearing finals in Mandan > are -r, -h, and -?, sometimes -?r. We know that some Mandan dialects > had different endings for some words (a list from Maximilian analyzed by > Dick Carter), so it appears that "final" behavior has been subject to > some degree of analogical restructuring of these transitions. So, for > example, a -r form may represent something else. Let me try to reword that last so makes some sort of sense! To fair extent it appears that Mandan -h corresponds to aspiration of the initial in MVS. > PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi > Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih For example, here the rule holds with *khi : kih, and perhaps with *ku : kuh. However it doesn't occur with *thi : ti. But, that set (*thi : ti) is one where -r would be a natural, and we also don't find *tir. We also find -h with *rE : rEh, unexpectedly. However, it appears that this stem may have been *reh- or *rehV, cf. Hidatsa rEhE. I assume that historically -r- reflects an epenthetic glide between a stem final vowel and a following vowel-initial morpheme, while -h and -? reflect "aspiration" and "glottalization" of the root. At present in Mandan the conditioning is much more arbitrary. In fact, we find 0 (nothing), -r, -h, -?, and -?r without any obvious Mandan-internal conditioning, In fact, we know that Mandan once had dialects that differed in which of these endings they associated with a particular root. This was deduced from Maximilian's word lists by Dick Carter. I conclude that -r or -h or -? reflect V-final, aspirated and glottalized stems, and may occur in correspondence to such things elsewhere, or may not, for Mandan-internal reasons. If a Mandan final matches the right pattern elsewhere, they are cognate. If it doesn't, then something has happened to this stem in Mandan to alter its behavior. I don't think we can reliably reconstruct a feature for a PS root from a Mandan final by itself, and, on the whole, these finals simply attest that certain stem features occurred, not where they occurred. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon May 22 14:48:07 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:48:07 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. > > You meant A2, right? No, I meant that you had filled in the A1 hole for gi: A1 ?? (John supplied ppi) A2 s^ki A3 gi >> So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: >> >> stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there >> >> A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi >> A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi >> >> with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> >> u-umlaut? > > That's more or less what I assume. It's not clear what's going on with > *s^-h or *p-k, but presumably those are something like the PMV or PS > forms. Those are the "logical" forms. However, I think that for PDh, > given the correspondences, I'd opt for *s^-u and *s^-i (without h) in the > second person of the h-stems and, by the same argument, for *p-ku I'd opt > for *h-pu, since we get OP ppi, Os hpu, etc. I was trying to favor "logical" forms in that chart. The question of aspirating a fricative might deserve a small discussion in itself! Here, it looks like it makes no difference to a fricative whether the leading vowel of the following morpheme is logically "rough" or "smooth". Your observation that *p-ku had probably already become *hpu by proto-MVS is interesting, and well-taken. >> Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I >> came', rather than ppi? > > Yes, though, of course, it doesn't mean 'I came', but 'I arrived there' [...] I know pHi can mean 'I arrived there', but does it ever mean 'I came'? The above chart indicates that MVS *(h)u, 'come', and *hi, 'arrive there', collapse together phonemically in A1 and A2 in OP: MVS *(h)u, OP MVS *hi, 'come' 'arrive there' A1 p-(h)u > pHi < p-hi A2 s^-(h)u > s^i < s^-hi > I think I've gotten all three contrasts here, and in ways that show the stem involved. No, we're still missing an A1 'come' example, and that's the one I'm asking about. (The A1/A2 contrasts for gi and hi are excellent, BTW!) The one you started: > Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: > > 90:122.7-10 > > ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION > why have you come > > ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha > he had come boy the has A2 (s^i) for i, 'come', but the second sentence is unrelated, having A3 (ahi) for hi, 'arrive there'. The full sentence is actually GaN' s^I ni' kHE'di ahi' biama' nu'z^iNga akHa'. And again the boy arrived there at the water. So do we have any known cases in OP of pHi as the A1 of i, 'come'? Or has ppi, the A1 of gi, 'come back', entirely replaced it, such that ppi means either 'I came' or 'I came back', and pHi is used only for 'I went (arrived) there'? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 15:44:25 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:44:25 -0600 Subject: A Small Discussion of Aspirated Fricatives (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the Dakotanists (especially those with a knowledge of Stoney or Assiniboine) will stick with me (or skip to the bottom) I have a question for them. In fact, to give it here, out of context: what is the second person of 'to say'? I'll also give the moral here. No matter what the answer is to the proceeding question, the moral is, "If any personal form of a Siouan verb is irregular, elicit all personal forms for it, and in the case of a dictionary, note all forms (either explicitly or with a paradigm code) for all verbs." This harks back to Jimm's sad experience with 'to wound', of course! Somebody, sooner or later, will regret any non-compliance in this area. Even the most innocent of verbs may have a single irregular form, e.g., OP i'...bahaN 'to know' has idhappahaN 'I know' instead of expected ippahaN. Everything else is regular, though. On Mon, 22 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: Given forms like s^ + hi => s^i, ... > The question of aspirating a fricative might deserve a small discussion > in itself! Here, it looks like it makes no difference to a fricative > whether the leading vowel of the following morpheme is logically "rough" > or "smooth". Well, let's see ... Swanton represents Ofo as having something that he represents as aspirated fricatives. But in the contexts of Dhegiha, to some extent it seems to me that the difference between "voiceless" and "voiced" fricatives in Dhegiha (Omaha-Ponca, anyway), is more of a difference between "bright" or "clear" fricatives and "dull" or "muffled" ones, which might be characterized also as aspirated vs. unaspirated. This observation has always been tempered by a suspicion that I was wandering off the beaten track in an area, phonetics, where I knew just enough to suspect this sounded silly. You've probably noticed that Dorsey specifically marks "s" and "s^" before n as "turned," or "unaspirated." I think he uses turned letters for the voiced fricatives in Osage. I wondered about this, but, sure enough, when I heard Omaha spoken, words like snede sounded like znede. (I have a tendency to recall this word as snede', but I think this must be a case where it is easy to hear pitch accent (sneHdeL) incorrectly as final stress accent (sne 'de).) To revert to the case of the second persons of h-stems, s^ there is definitely one of the "bright" ones. The same morpheme comes out z^ before ?-stems, e.g., az^iN 'you suspect' (a=...(?)iN 'to suspect, to infer'), which I think behave as vowel-initial in the first and second persons of Dhegiha. So maybe it's *s^hi vs. *a=s^iN, leading to s^i vs. az^iN in the usual spelling. However, I am a bit reluctant to think of cases like xidha 'eagle' and ghage 'to cry' as xhidha vs. xage. I guess this would make waxe 'whiteman' out to be waxhe. And nuxe 'ice' would be nuxhe. But gaghe 'make' becomes gaxe. And isn't it gaxa 'branch', so gaxha? Here's something for the Dakotanists: at one point I noticed that Dakota has this inflectional paradigm for 'say', compared with the OP one: Da OP A1 ephe ehe (but egiphe in the dative) A2 ehe es^e A3 eye a=i The third person stem might be *e=...(r)E (*r > y in Dakota), though it seems to be just unepenthesized (e=)E in OP (with ablaut before =i). If there's no epenthetic glide between two vowels, the regular behavior is to lose the first, so perhaps e=...E always comes out e or a in OP. I think cases of e are rare. I don't recall one, and they are hard to search for! But, getting to the point, the first and second person stems are clearly *e=...E. What I noticed was that the Dakota second person form form has h (with loss of s^), while the OP form has s^ (with loss of h). Then it occurred to me that the middle demonstrative in Dakotan is he, while in Dhegiha it's s^e. At that point I suggested that the middle demonstrative was PS (or PMV) *s^he. David and Bob, however, pointed out that Assiniboine and Stoney have s^e instead of he. That was disappointing, though interesting, too. However, I think that at the time I forgot to ask what the second person of 'to say' was in Assiniboine or Stoney! I suppose it's still ehe? This becomes an interesting question because eya 'to say' is the only "functioning" h-stem in Dakotan. The others have all lost their h's and gone regular. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 17:36:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:36:11 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > I know pHi can mean 'I arrived there', but does it ever mean 'I came'? I probably shouldn't get too fussy about semantics, since my brain doesn't work very well in that direction, but I think it always means something like 'to travel to a distal point, and emphasize arriving there'. However, it might well translate to or from 'come' in a particular English context, because the semantics of 'come' and 'go' work differently. For example, I think an English sentence like 'That was just after I came to Macy.' would involve hi, not i, whereas 'I came to Macy every day for a month.' might be i and not hi. For that matter, a sentence like 'He went to Denver.' might be hi. > The above chart indicates that MVS *(h)u, 'come', and *hi, 'arrive > there', collapse together phonemically in A1 and A2 in OP: Which is definitely awkward amd might have an effect on usage. > No, we're still missing an A1 'come' example, and that's the one I'm > asking about. The one you started: > > > Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: > > > > 90:122.7-10 > > > > ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION > > why have you come > > > > ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha > > he had come boy the > > has A2 (s^i) for i, 'come', but the second sentence is unrelated, having A3 > (ahi) for hi, 'arrive there'. The full sentence is actually > > GaN' s^I ni' kHE'di ahi' biama' nu'z^iNga akHa'. > And again the boy arrived there at the water. You're right! Not a good pair. I was looking for pairs that showed the morphology and were linked pragmatically by context as much as for first and second person pairs per se, but not only is this pair not parallel, but one is i 'come' and the other hi 'arrive there'. > So do we have any known cases in OP of pHi as the A1 of i, 'come'? Or has > ppi, the A1 of gi, 'come back', entirely replaced it, such that ppi means > either 'I came' or 'I came back', and pHi is used only for 'I went > (arrived) there'? I couldn't say for modern usage, but I think phi in both 'I come' and 'I arrive there' senses occurs in Dorsey. 1890:199.12 kki dhe' udhu'ahe bdhe'=dhiN wa'dhighe= akha=di phi and this I followed her I went the she married them the at I arrived And I got to where the woman whom I was following had married someone (else) (or maybe 'had been sleeping around') (This is said in discussion after returning.) 1890:297.17 e'=di phi'= hnaN= maN e'=de sabe' he'ga=b=az^i there I arrived regularly I-AUX but wise they were not a little Though I went there frequently, they were exceedingly cautious Here "went" seems to work better in English, but Dorsey renders it "I arrived," and clearly intends a different verb from ppi, which he renders 'I came back', 'I was coming back', 'I was bringing it back', etc. For phi 'I come': 1890:87.14 Hau! Udhi'dha=i= egaN, winaN'?aN phi' ha Ho! you have been spoken of CONJUNCT I hear you I have been coming DEC "Ho, as they have been talking about you, I have come to hear you." 1890:170.19 E'dabe e=s^naN=xc^i awa'giaN=bdha phi e'd= egaN, also quite alone I left mine I came UNEXPECTED CONJUNCT ga=thaN'=xti awa'gittaNbe kkaN'=bdha at last I see my own I wish "Also, having come here alone, leaving home and family behind, I have reached a point where I long to see them." In addition, though I'll put off looking them up at present, Dorsey has the paradigms for the various verbs of motion in his draft grammar. So, although he was certainly influenced in his work by Riggs, I believe he found a three-way contrast (with some hmophony in A1 and A2 of i and hi). It definitely helps in working with these verbs to keep track of the relative location of speech act and activity discussed, not to mention whether it is diredt discourse or indirect discourse, since "I have arrived here, he said" and "he arrived there" present two different versions of the same event. It may be time for somebody more knowledgeable to jump in, but I think that English 'come' and 'go' can refer to 'motion toward' and 'motion away' relative to a goal or source, if specified or implicit, and revert to being relative the locus of the speech act only if they are not. But I'm not sure Siouan languages do this. I think their motion verbs are always relative to the locus of the speech act. Has anyone gone into the semantics of Siouan motion verbs in detail? Barring that, there is an article that (so far as I have gotten through it) is generally useful: Talmy, Leonard. 1985, 1987. "Lexicalization patterns: semantic structure in lexical form." In Timothy Shopen, ed. Language typolocy and syntactic description, III: Grammatical categories and the lexicon." Pp. 57-150. Talmy treats motion verbs among other cases, and suggests that languages tend to have sets that distinguish path + fact-of-motion, manner/cause + fact-of-motion, or figure + fact-of-motion. Most Indo-European languages have motion verbs of the second type. The first type are found in Romance, Semitic, Polynesian, Nez Perce, and Caddo. Also, I think Siouan. For the third type his examples are Atsugewi and Navajo. His Spanish examples include usages like: La botella entro' a/salio' de la cueva (flotando) The bottle floated in/out of the cave La botella se fue' de/volvio' a la orilla (flotando) The floated away from/back to the bank Showing that you have to specify the path, not the manner. Of course this says nothing about where the path is anchored or about arriving vs. starting or being en route, and Talmy doesn't go into that. For those who were wondering about "type 3," such languages tend to to require that the nature of the movement (into or through certain things) be specified, rather than the path or manner of moving. I won't try to include the transcriptions, but the Atsugewi examples are: yucky stuff + on the ground + by gravity + inflection The guts are on the ground yucky stuff + into liquid + by wind + inflection The guts blew into the creek yucky stuff + into fire + using a linear object moving axially + inflection I prodded the guts into the fire with a stick Type two, of course, is exhibited in the English glosses. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue May 23 17:55:26 2006 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:55:26 -0400 Subject: A Small Discussion of Aspirated Fricatives (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quick answer to your question, John: (Assiniboine doesn't ablaut word-final A) A1s epha A2s eha A3s eya -Linda Quoting Koontz John E : > If the Dakotanists (especially those with a knowledge of Stoney or > Assiniboine) will stick with me (or skip to the bottom) I have a question > for them. In fact, to give it here, out of context: what is the second > person of 'to say'? > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue May 23 18:31:15 2006 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:31:15 -0400 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > > Has anyone gone into the semantics of Siouan motion verbs in detail? > I have, for Assiniboine, at least. Y'all saw a preliminary analysis at Spearfish, and I've devoted a full chapter to a much more detailed analysis in my Assiniboine grammar. My analysis involves a deictic center and two separate bases (A and B), plus something I've dubbed the "apogee" (the point at which one switches from non-return to return verbs). It all boils down into a neat little diagram - the picture that takes 1000 words (or more!) to explain. I understood that I should be working this up for the comparative Siouan grammar workshop next month. I've been slotting data from the other Siouan languages into my diagram -- and, assuming I'm interpreting the data correctly, finding that the structure works with reasonable consistency across the entire language family. It would be difficult to put the whole thing across in an email message, so I was planning to give a detailed explanation at the workshop. Linda From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 20:29:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:29:20 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: <20060523143115.l2vd58gzdc8wcwgg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2006, Cumberland, Linda wrote: > I understood that I should be working this up for the comparative Siouan > grammar workshop next month. I've been slotting data from the other > Siouan languages into my diagram -- and, assuming I'm interpreting the > data correctly, finding that the structure works with reasonable > consistency across the entire language family. It would be difficult to > put the whole thing across in an email message, so I was planning to > give a detailed explanation at the workshop. I look forward to hearing it! (Remind me at the conference.) I'm sorry I forgot your previous paper. I do remember it now that you remind me. At some point, some years ago now, I stopped remembering some of everything that happened near me and started remembering only some of what I was focussed on at the time. This keeps coming back to haunt me. At some point I went from being willing to be younger again if I could know then what I know now to being willing to be older if I could just know now what I knew then. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 22:12:23 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:12:23 -0600 Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: In working on my paper for the Conference I've realized that I don't know if all Crow nouns have plural marking on the verbal model, or if it is only some that do. It looks like alienably and inalienably possessed nouns that are marked, in the interest of the possessor. Also, the plural occurs with nouns like 'woman' when they are used verbally, e.g., biak 'she's a woman' : biok 'they are women'. (I think I have thpse right.) As far as Hidatsa, I've found a comment in Matthews to the effect that nouns do not distinguish number. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed May 24 14:55:38 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:55:38 EDT Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: Yes, Crow nouns mark the plural the same as verbs do. Plural marking on possessed nouns indicates that the possessor is plural. And nouns used verbally can also be plural. Hidatsa nouns do mark plural number, although it looks quite different from Crow. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 24 15:56:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:56:30 -0600 Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking In-Reply-To: <441.18ce023.31a5cdea@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Yes, Crow nouns mark the plural the same as verbs do. Plural marking on > possessed nouns indicates that the possessor is plural. And nouns used verbally > can also be plural. Fresh from an illuminating series of comments from John Boyle on Hidatsa, I take it verbs agree with subject and object using one plural slot in the usual Siouan way (but not the usual Hidatsa way)? And I take it that nouns can be pluralized when arguments of verbs, and not just when predicative or possessed? Any constraints on when or when not? > Hidatsa nouns do mark plural number, although it looks quite different > from Crow. You're not kidding! From jkyle at ku.edu Wed May 24 21:38:35 2006 From: jkyle at ku.edu (Kyle, John H) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:38:35 -0500 Subject: Dakota active stative reduplication Message-ID: I hope someone could help clarify some questions for me. Boas & Deloria (1941) and Shaw (1980) give examples of reduplicated stative verbs in Dakota which have 2nd syllable stress and reduplicated active verbs which have initial stress: Stative: /puz/ puspu'za 'be dry' /sak/ saksa'ka 'be hard and stiff' /sap/ sapsa'pa 'be black' Active: /Gop/ Go'pGopa 'to snore' /yuz/ yu'syuza 'to take hold of' They also give examples where a reduplicated stative verb can become active by moving the 2nd syllable stress to the initial syllable: /xop/ xopxo'pa 'to be good-looking' xo'pxopa 'to pose, try to appear one's best' /ks^aN/ ks^aNks^aN' 'to be crooked' ks^aN'ks^aN 'he wriggles his body about' My questions: Most of the glosses for these forms are given as infinitives (the last example is the only one which isn't) so my questions concern actual inflected forms. Are reduplicated stative verbs only used for Plural inanimate subjects or can other subjects pronominal affixes occur with them? How about reduplicated active verbs? What are some of the other ways that stative verbs can become active in Dakota? and finally, the examples given in Shaw are mostly CVC roots. The only V final roots given are: /slo/ sloslo' 'be soft and slimy' /so/ so'so 'to cut in thin strips' and she notes that they only occur in reduplicated form (they are also monosyllabic roots). Does this initial stress on active reduplicated verbs only occur on CVC and monosyllabic V final roots? Thanks alot John Kyle From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 25 22:30:56 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:30:56 EDT Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: In a message dated 5/24/2006 10:06:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Fresh from an illuminating series of comments from John Boyle on Hidatsa, I take it verbs agree with subject and object using one plural slot in the usual Siouan way (but not the usual Hidatsa way)? That's right. And I take it that nouns can be pluralized when arguments of verbs, and not just when predicative or possessed? Yes. Any constraints on when or when not? Plural marking does not occur on the noun when it is followed by the definite article -sh. In general, Crow tends to be parsimonious in marking nouns plural. For example in a sentence like bishke' bahu'iluk 'dogs bark' only the verb has plural marking. This is an area that needs more research! Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 25 22:56:44 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:56:44 EDT Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: This is a brief update for those who are planning to attend the conference and the following workshop. If you are planning to attend and have not yet contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. I will need to know if you are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles from Billings) on Saturday and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have invited several Crow people to give presentations. I talked to the food service people at Rocky Mountain College today, and if we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a matter of paying by the meal. They want to know exactly how many people will be eating there, and what meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, or $5.60 for breakfast, $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need to notify them by June 8 if we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 they would need to know exactly how many will be there and what meals they will want. Since we will be going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that we would not need food service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking that we may want to plan on getting away from college food for at least some dinners. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Thu May 25 23:28:32 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:28:32 -0700 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <215.16bd8ca4.31a7902c@aol.com> Message-ID: Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:57 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SCLC Update This is a brief update for those who are planning to attend the conference and the following workshop. If you are planning to attend and have not yet contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. I will need to know if you are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles from Billings) on Saturday and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have invited several Crow people to give presentations. I talked to the food service people at Rocky Mountain College today, and if we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a matter of paying by the meal. They want to know exactly how many people will be eating there, and what meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, or $5.60 for breakfast, $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need to notify them by June 8 if we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 they would need to know exactly how many will be there and what meals they will want. Since we will be going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that we would not need food service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking that we may want to plan on getting away from college food for at least some dinners. Randy -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/345 - Release Date: 5/22/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/345 - Release Date: 5/22/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 26 02:27:37 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:27:37 -0600 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <000901c68052$f030a030$0202a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the > college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of > course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing > to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. > Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. I'm happy with the combination of Randy's Saturday and Carolyn's general comments. For one thing, I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area, but in general I have no problem with using the college food service for breakfast and lunch, and dinner, too, if that is the most practical approach. Let us know if you discover you need a deposit at any point. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 26 18:20:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:20:24 +0100 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <215.16bd8ca4.31a7902c@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy As I will have my daughter and granddaughter with me, I will be staying at the Best Western Ponderosa Inn. Usually I prefer the Super 8, but they wanted a swimming pool. However I think they would like to come with us to the Crow Agency on Saturday. I'll confirm with you later about eating on other days. Probably will have lunch with the rest of you Yours Bruce--- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > This is a brief update for those who are planning to > attend the conference > and the following workshop. If you are planning to > attend and have not yet > contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. > I will need to know if you > are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). > > We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles > from Billings) on Saturday > and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have > invited several Crow people > to give presentations. > > I talked to the food service people at Rocky > Mountain College today, and if > we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a > matter of paying by the > meal. They want to know exactly how many people > will be eating there, and what > meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, > or $5.60 for breakfast, > $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need > to notify them by June 8 if > we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 > they would need to know > exactly how many will be there and what meals they > will want. Since we will be > going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that > we would not need food > service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking > that we may want to plan on > getting away from college food for at least some > dinners. > > Randy > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri May 26 18:59:26 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:59:26 EDT Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: In a message dated 5/25/2006 8:45:51 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 26 23:17:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:17:00 -0600 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <4a0.e2a068.31a8aa0e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The > closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the schedule is at all tight. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri May 26 23:40:19 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:40:19 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: Randy: Do you know the hours of this one small cafe across the street? I am fine with us all have meals together, but I do have a problem with being oblidged to sign up for a number of meals/ day and pay a set amount for those meals. I do not always care to eat the typical mean or even any meal at all. I like flexibility. Besides, SocSecurity doesnt provide me any flexibility with unnecessary spending. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:59 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update In a message dated 5/25/2006 8:45:51 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sat May 27 16:30:35 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:30:35 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: I dont mind walking either. Could we send out for lunch, like pizza, or subway? Or is it set that we all are eating together in the College Cafe? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:17 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update > On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: >> There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. >> The >> closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. > > Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to > eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the > schedule is at all tight. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Sat May 27 19:10:39 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 12:10:39 -0700 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <002f01c681ad$71fdedb0$0102133f@JIMM> Message-ID: I agree with Jim. Sending out to subway is a good idea. Walking is good, too. And of course, every person should feel free to choose to eat wherever he/she likes! My preference is just whatever is easy. Is there a line at noon-time in the cafeteria, Randy? Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SCLC Update I dont mind walking either. Could we send out for lunch, like pizza, or subway? Or is it set that we all are eating together in the College Cafe? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:17 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update > On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: >> There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. >> The >> closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. > > Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to > eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the > schedule is at all tight. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 28 04:10:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 22:10:06 -0600 Subject: Eating at the SCLC In-Reply-To: <4a0.e2a068.31a8aa0e@aol.com> Message-ID: Randy: Since things are now somewhat uncertain, and it's partly my doing for arguing both sides, let me say that I comit to eating as many breakfasts and lunches in the cafeteria as you find it convenient so sign me up for. (Well, OK, no more than one each per day!) Or if you decide not to use the cafeteria, that's OK, too. Everyone else: May I suggest that anyone who wishes to attend the SCLC include in their registration mail (off list) to Randy a statement as to whether they will avail themselves of the cafeteria plan. It's OK to send paper titles and abstracts, or decisions to attend or not, to the list, and Randy and others should feel free to make announcements via the list, but I'm thinking that we might want to keep the mealtime cat herding off line. My apologies for contributing to that! From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 13:39:57 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 14:39:57 +0100 Subject: Eating at the SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Randy, I think I will probably have breakfast with my family, but have lunch with the rest of you at the college and dinners, I imagine also with the family except if you want to go out somewhere in the evenings, when I could bring them along, as with the Crow Agency trip. Yours Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > Randy: > > Since things are now somewhat uncertain, and it's > partly my doing for > arguing both sides, let me say that I comit to > eating as many breakfasts > and lunches in the cafeteria as you find it > convenient so sign me up for. > (Well, OK, no more than one each per day!) Or if > you decide not to use > the cafeteria, that's OK, too. > > Everyone else: > > May I suggest that anyone who wishes to attend the > SCLC include in > their registration mail (off list) to Randy a > statement as to whether they > will avail themselves of the cafeteria plan. > > It's OK to send paper titles and abstracts, or > decisions to attend or not, > to the list, and Randy and others should feel free > to make announcements > via the list, but I'm thinking that we might want to > keep the mealtime cat > herding off line. My apologies for contributing to > that! > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 16:07:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:07:52 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: Daily lunch at the College and dinner "out" sounds fine to me too. I'd leave breakfast to individuals. I'm not civil before my morning coffee in any event. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 5/25/2006 9:27 PM To: Siouan List Subject: RE: SCLC Update On Thu, 25 May 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the > college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of > course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing > to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. > Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. I'm happy with the combination of Randy's Saturday and Carolyn's general comments. For one thing, I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area, but in general I have no problem with using the college food service for breakfast and lunch, and dinner, too, if that is the most practical approach. Let us know if you discover you need a deposit at any point. From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 16:42:21 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:42:21 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: How about parking at the College? Will there be a problem on Friday or any other weekday; do we need a permit of some kind? I'll be staying in a motel and presumably driving over to the conference venue. I could also take some passengers out to Crow Agency. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Mon 5/29/2006 11:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SCLC Update Daily lunch at the College and dinner "out" sounds fine to me too. I'd leave breakfast to individuals. I'm not civil before my morning coffee in any event. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 20:15:15 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 15:15:15 -0500 Subject: workshop paper Message-ID: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 17:40:42 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:40:42 -0700 Subject: workshop paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue May 30 17:43:33 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:33 -0700 Subject: copies at SCLC Message-ID: Randy, Can you tell us any details about making copies easily for handouts or full papers at the college? Carolyn -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue May 30 18:26:55 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:26:55 -0500 Subject: UNL Omaha language site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha all, The University of Nebraska Omaha language website has moved out of the workshop and on to a more "user friendly" address. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu There are still the unavoidable kinks to work out. However, the cool audio is up. Please take a look and forward comments, suggestions, and concerns to me. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue May 30 20:11:07 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:11:07 -0500 Subject: F.Y.I. Re: Pawnee Language Program Message-ID: Excerpts below are from the "Chaticks si Chaticks" XV:1, pp. 8-9, Pawnee Nation Language Deptartment: No wa (Hello) ]ik stit ku From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 30 20:34:10 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:34:10 -0500 Subject: workshop paper Message-ID: Sorry, no, there was no attachment. Microsoft Outlook Web Access at KU (like all such Microsoft mailers) often generates an apparent attachment that contains formatting information and cannot be opened by other mail programs. The file is called "WINMAIL.DAT" and if you try to open it, it just shows garbage. This seems to be what happens when you set your mail program to use Unicode. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 12:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: workshop paper Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob ________________________________ Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 20:40:16 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:40:16 -0700 Subject: workshop paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, okay. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything! : ) That is, except the conference, unfortunately, again. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Sorry, no, there was no attachment. Microsoft Outlook Web Access at KU (like all such Microsoft mailers) often generates an apparent attachment that contains formatting information and cannot be opened by other mail programs. The file is called "WINMAIL.DAT" and if you try to open it, it just shows garbage. This seems to be what happens when you set your mail program to use Unicode. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 12:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: workshop paper Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob ________________________________ Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 30 20:38:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:38:35 -0500 Subject: UNL Omaha language site Message-ID: Hi Mark, Thanks for the info! I'll have a look. Are you going to the Siouan Conference? There is a comparative grammar workshop scheduled for 2 to 3 days after the conference proper that you might enjoy too. Best, Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 00:04:55 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:04:55 -0600 Subject: Questionnaires for Comparative Workshop Message-ID: Some people are thinking of distributing questionnaires to elicit data that they are finding it hard to locate. As far as I can see, it is OK to post these questionnaires on the list. Also feel free to specify that answers should come to you direct, off list, if that is what you prefer. I can't guarantee that people will follow instructions and it should be clear by now that I have no objections to voluminous data postings. I'm also willing to supply email addresses to those who want to send more directed questionnaires and need contact information. Again, I can't guarantee that people won't post their responses, but it seems much more likely that people will respect your wishes if you write direct and ask them not to. If you write on the list, and ask them not to, they may have fired off the response before they see your restrictions. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 00:24:14 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:24:14 -0600 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed May 31 00:58:04 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:58:04 -0700 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I have answered you off list, and BTW something about the Subject line caused this email to be snagged by my Spamblocker. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:24 PM To: Siouan List Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 31 14:25:59 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. I think Justin ran across -abi in some of Dorsey's Kansa notes at the NAA just a few days ago. He can clarify that -- I can't remember what speaker was being quoted, but it was undoubtedly a man. BTW we found that Dorsey was doing field work with Kaws as early as 1882 (not 1888 as some of his typescripts are dated). Truth is, however, that we don't have very many instances of anything but the -abe form even from males in the 19th century. Kansa -e and Omaha -i are not a regular vowel correspondence in any event. I'd have to go dig through the files for Quapaw. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 7:24 PM To: Siouan List Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed May 31 15:53:21 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:53:21 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. Bob, could you clarify this statement? I don't know of any such male (declarative??) form as -abi in Omaha-Ponka. Thanks, Rory From pustetrm at yahoo.com Wed May 31 16:30:36 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:30:36 -0700 Subject: Questionnaires for Comparative Workshop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a questionnaire ready but at least in my case I think it would be better to circulate it after the conference when everybody is more relaxed and there's more time for such things. Discussing the issues raised in the questionnaires on the list, rather than separately, is a very good idea. As far as I can tell from my own work on this, the quality of the output of this project depends crucially on the intensity of intellectual exchange between us Siouanists. My topic is, basically, interesting but without further input from specialists, I'm afraid it won't even yield an acceptable paper. At one point, I was so frustrated that I even thought about changing the topic. Regina Koontz John E wrote: Some people are thinking of distributing questionnaires to elicit data that they are finding it hard to locate. As far as I can see, it is OK to post these questionnaires on the list. Also feel free to specify that answers should come to you direct, off list, if that is what you prefer. I can't guarantee that people will follow instructions and it should be clear by now that I have no objections to voluminous data postings. I'm also willing to supply email addresses to those who want to send more directed questionnaires and need contact information. Again, I can't guarantee that people won't post their responses, but it seems much more likely that people will respect your wishes if you write direct and ask them not to. If you write on the list, and ask them not to, they may have fired off the response before they see your restrictions. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 31 19:16:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:16:57 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about the 3rd person proximate non-continuative verb ending. The only declarative marker I mentioned was Kaw feminine -(y)e (usually just [e] ). This would be the -abi of Omaha -abiama I assume. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 5/31/2006 10:53 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage > I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. Bob, could you clarify this statement? I don't know of any such male (declarative??) form as -abi in Omaha-Ponka. Thanks, Rory From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 31 20:48:12 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:48:12 -0600 Subject: F.Y.I. Re: Pawnee Language Program In-Reply-To: <008301c68425$360213c0$ba1f133f@JIMM> Message-ID: This is such an incredible leap backwards, completely without any justification from language learning research, that I want to cry. If the "old Pawnee spelling" is accurately reproduced here, in the three sample words, there are examples of one letter for two different sounds, two spellings for the same sound, simplification of consonant clusters in the direction of English, and writing that totally obscures morpheme boundaries. No one can possibly use this consistently (cf. new spelling -tiks and piks for what is a long vowel in the first word but short in the second, while the same short vowel is written "ee" in the open syllable of ksi). I hope for the sake of the children that they will concentrate on getting them to speak and forget about writing, if this is how they plan to write. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 30 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Excerpts below are from the "Chaticks si Chaticks" XV:1, pp. 8-9, Pawnee Nation Language Deptartment: > > No wa (Hello) ]ik stit ku Nation Language Department enters 2006 with a great sense of purpose. > Due to the recent opening of Oo ka sa Child Learning Center, we realize > the revitalization of our language is within our grasp. By the Fall of > 2007 we expect to hear the voices of our young speaking the Pawnee > language throughout our community. Our next step is to allow our Pawnee > Language to find a comfortable place within the midst of our community. > We have began a banner and sign project which we hope to develop around > the entire community. Our first vinyl banner is located in the gym (of > the local high school) and reads, "koo "Black Bear Pride." ...we are implementing a new writing style. For > many decades writing styles have been introduced to our community that > are not easily understood by our local population. ...we need to > develop a writing system tht is easily understood by the community and > helps in the language (Pawnee & English) development of our children. > ... We have adopted a mixed syllabery and phonetic writing system that > is a common sense approach to our languge and which becomes our very > own. NEW WRITING SYSTEM EXAMPLES There are two new symbols in the > writing system. "<" is equal to the old "r", which was supposed to > sound like a d, l, or (Spanish r) depending on the word. "]" is equal > to the old "ts" or "ch". Neither of these sounds exist in English and > that is why a syllabery for these two distinct Pawnee sounds has been > developed. English Current Pawnee Writing New Pawnee Writing Two pitku > pit koo Four kskitiiks skee tiks Eight taw iksapits > This system will allow our children to advance in Pawnee and English > compositon and prepare them for the public school system. > > Oo ka sa Child Learning Center ...provide quality curriculum and > instruction for the three, four and five year olds. ... Four Oo ka sa > teachers are currenly certified as Pawnee Language Teachers, Mastery > Level One. This corresponds to the Pari Pakuru textbook and CD one, > lessons one through five. This semester the teachers are taking Pawnee > Cultural Studies, Pawnee Nation Academy. (Pari Pakuru, Educational > Research Associates, Albuquerque, NM. 1979. [Library of Congress > catalog #79-63051]. Language Course Books, Audio Cassette kits and > Teacher's Guide via Research & Cultural Studies Development Section, > Institute of American Indian Arts, BIA, Santa Fe, NM). > > Pawnee Language After School Class (Grades K-7) This class meets at the > Pawnee Elementary School on Tuesdays and Thursday...from 3:20pm to > 4:30pm. ... We are currently working on learning handgame songs, > Pawnee hymns and a lullabye to perform at the 4th Annual Native American > Youth Language Fair to be held n March (2007)... University of Oklahoma > (Norman). There are lots of games and activities...to learn our colors, > numbers, animals and conversaional phrases.... > > Pawnee Nation Academy, American Indian Studies Department, Pawnee > Language II ...provide Pawnee language at the college level for credit. > ... The focus is on learning conversational Pawnee such as greetings, > responses, and useful everday phrases. The main goal is to go beyond > memorizing words and to start "thinking in Pawnee". Teacher Training > Program The language program is currently in the planning, orgainizing > and creation stage for a teacher training program that will be > accredited by the Pawnee Nation, Northern Oklahoma College (at Tonkawa, > OK), State Regents for Higher Education and the Oklahoma State > Deptartment of Education. > > HUKASA TEACHER RECOGNITION Friday, March 3, 2006 The Hukasa Child > Learning Center works...to train teachers who will asist...language to > three to five year olds. ...have been learning the Pawnee language > since the end of August 2005. ...the teachers voluntarily gave up their > lunch breadk three times a week while the kids were sleeping. This > initial phase of training took place from August until December 2005. > ... Learning the Pawnee language takes a good strong commitment as it > is not an easy language to learn. > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 31 20:59:11 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:59:11 -0600 Subject: conference paper Message-ID: Sorry, folks, I don't even have the beginning of the paper I had hoped to prepare for the grammar workshop. Some time in the next 3-4 years, I do want to do an inventory of subordination types in Lakota, and I have many notes for such a project, but nothing ready to share. Then would be the time to query those who know the other languages. My casual searches over the years lead me to believe that all the types are there in all the languages, but the individual members of categories shift around. And once again, I deeply regret being unable to be at the conference. It sounds like Randy is living up to his reputation as a super host for this meeting. Best wishes to everyone, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 23:52:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:52:00 -0600 Subject: FYI: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now (fwd) Message-ID: A repost from the Linguist List. Note that SILDoulos IPA93 (or rather a modifiable relative of it) is the basis of the "Standard Siouan" fonts I've been circulating. I think IPA93 is SIL's own IPA variant of the underlying SIL Doulos font. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:26:15 -0400 From: linguist at LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: 17.1638, FYI: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now Date: 31-May-2006 From: Mike Cahill < mike_cahill at sil.org > Subject: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now Why SIL doesn't recommend SILDoulos IPA93 font any more The world is switching to Unicode, and in the next few years the conversion will be complete. Most linguists have had the experience of receiving documents which use custom fonts which populate their computer screen with annoyingly faceless boxes rather than robust meaningful phonetic characters. Unicode-compliant fonts will largely eliminate this. SIL now has three good Unicode-compliant fonts with phonetic character capability which we commend for your consideration. Charis SIL - possibly the best all around font for linguistic purposes. It is publishing quality, has a complete IPA character set, including stackable diacritics, so an entire manuscript, both text and linguistic examples, may be typed with this. For Windows, MacIntosh, and Linux. http://scripts.sil.org/CharisSILfont Doulos SIL - not the same as ''SIL Doulos!'' SIL is now following the industry standard of putting the company's name at the end. This font resembles Times New Roman and has a complete IPA character set, including stackable diacritics. Bold and italics are not built into the font, so these depend on the automatic formatting of Word or other word processor. http://scripts.sil.org/DoulosSILfont Gentium - this is excellent for general purposes (it was a winner in the Type Directors' Club 2003 Type Design Competition), including Greek fonts. Much but not all of the IPA is included, though the remainder is expected to be added within a year or so. http://scripts.sil.org/FontDownloadsGentium The SIL IPA93 fonts have become commonly used for many conference abstracts and journal submissions, but they are not Unicode and will not be developed further (e.g. ''Latin small letter v with right hook'' representing the labiodental flap will never appear in these fonts). We now recommend Charis SIL or Doulos SIL for such submissions. See http://scripts.sil.org/IPAhome for more discussion. Mike Cahill International Linguistics Coordinator, SIL International From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon May 1 14:39:19 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Ho, zaan?N, Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's Unicode Kaw spellings to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks and stress marks on the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question marks and unmarked vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, since we were actually having some other problems with our @kawnation.com email server at the time. But, of course, I was worried that it may not have come through on someone else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran through his wordlist and converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got his permission to post the plain text version to the Siouan List. Enjoy! -jm --------------------------------- hw[be, be? def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? hw [b?es^ki def[whoever, who + indefinite hw[d?adaN def[what, something hw[d?NaNska def[something, thing hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) def[why? wherefore? hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) def[why? hw[hag?odaN, -?? (MR) def[why, how come, for what reason hw[hag?ha def[where, whither, where to? hw[hag?j^idaN (JOD) def[when, at the time, because hw[hakh?N def[how far?, how long?, when? hw[hakh?Nda, -?N? (MR) def[when, at what future time? rem[v. hakh?Nj^i hw[hakh?Ngo (JOD) def[when, at what point or time hw[v. hakh?Nj^i, -?N? (MR) def[when, at what past time? rem[v. hakh?Nda hw[hakh?Ns^ke (JOD) def[sometime or other hw[hakh?Nz^i (JOD) def[distance, at no great, not far hw[h?naN def[how many, how much? hw[h?yoNska def[how big, what size? hw[h?wa + positional article def[where is the X shaped obj.? hw[h?wage`j^i def[where, to what places hw[h?NoNs^ki (JOD) def[random, at, in no particular rem[place. hw[wi?Nma (JOD) def[which, which one? hw[wi?Nmas^kid?N (JOD) def[whichever, whichever one hw[w?aNmatta (JOD) def[whose is it? Which one are rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon May 1 15:40:49 2006 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:40:49 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: For the Kaw 'wound' verb, Dorsey has the following slip (bear in mind that Dorsey's "u" character represents Kaw /o/, and that "a?" is how he writes the male declarative): ------------ u, v. to wound aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? taciyaNmak? ?dji ?be a?, Cay?ni ab?: the Cheyennes wounded him on his knee; (note that the ? of ?dji above also bears a bowl-shaped breve mark on the slip -jm) ------------ Tricky stuff. For instance, much of his analysis suggests that the headword form probably ought to be a causative construction, o ye. Then again, one doesn't usually inflect both verbs used in a causative construction, and his 3rd person example isn't a causative at all (?be). Notice also that he doesn't complete a morpheme breakdown for his 2nd person example like he does for his 1st, perhaps because it's difficult to account for a regular causative inflection under his assumptions (what happened to the y of a2s ya-). Furthermore, the verb is made all the trickier by the fact that some of the salient details of its construction, i.e., the o root and the y element of the causative ye, bear striking resemblances to the usual epenthetic glides w and y that emerge in certain casual speech environments and that may be omitted generally as non-phonemic. Here, though, they're not epenthetic at all. Lastly, while the root preserves the entire a1s a- and sheds its own primary stress (aw? instead of ?wa or a?a), it seems to "swallow up" the a element of the a2s ya- and take on primary stress (y?a instead of yaw? or y?wa). It may be best to think of this verb as an especially ornery bird, and just consider it all as is. At least in Kaw... -jm From mary.marino at usask.ca Mon May 1 16:26:58 2006 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:26:58 -0600 Subject: first language acquisition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a study done in the 70s by Alicia Nokony, then a linguistics grad student at UBC. The language was Dakota (Oak Lake reserve, MB) - the children in the family were acquiring both Dakota and English. This is the only one I know of, but I thought I would check to see if anyone is aware of other work that has been done, or is being done. I have a colleague in the college of Medicine here who is in developmental pediatrics. The college is looking to develop a Speech/Language Pathology program. The strong need for health care in this area in aboriginal communities is a major incentive to do this. He has consulted me about the state of research in this area, so I am collecting what information I can to help the effort along. Mary At 03:41 PM 4/28/2006, you wrote: >Personally, I haven't heard of anyone working on that. Where would you do >the work except in a very few Dakotan and Crow communities? B. > >________________________________ > >From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino >Sent: Fri 4/28/2006 10:50 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: first language acquisition > > > >Does anyone know of current or recent studies of first-language acquisition >in those Siouan languages that are still being acquired by children? Is >anyone actively working on this? > >Mary Marino > > From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 18:24:21 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:24:21 +0100 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <003501c66d2d$0b1884f0$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: Bob, I think I got a bit confused between the Quapaw and the Kaw, when I was trying to fit it all into my data. I now think I know what is Kaw, after Justin's intervention, but I'm but sure which is the Quapaw. Below is what I have got down. Could you let me know if I'm very wrong anywhere. Don't worry about the transcription if it comes out looking nonsensical at the other end. I think it is OK this end Kansa or Kaw hanaska 'how big, what size' hakh?_ how far, how long' h?yo_ska how big, what size athaaha 'how deep' h?na_ 'how many, how much hana, hano, hanomucte 'how many, much' athakka 'how tall' d?ada_ 'what' ha, ho, hotha, tatta 'what, why' hakh?_da, hag?jida_, athatta 'when (future)' hakh?_go 'when, at what point of time' hag?ha, hakidede 'where, in which direction' ?wage`ji 'where, to what places' wi?_ma 'which, which one' be, howa 'who' h?ago, hag? haki, hanitta, honitta 'why' Quapaw h?yoska 'how big, what size' hakha? 'how far, how long, when' h?na 'how many, how much' hag?jida 'when, at the time, because' hakha?go 'when, at what point or time' hakha?ada, -a? 'when, at what future time? h?wage`ji 'where, to what places' hag?ha 'whither , where to' wia?ma 'which, which one' h?agohag? 'why' Bruce --- Justin McBride wrote: > Ho, zaan?N, > > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's > Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks > and stress marks on > the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question > marks and unmarked > vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, > since we were actually > having some other problems with our @kawnation.com > email server at the time. > But, of course, I was worried that it may not have > come through on someone > else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran > through his wordlist and > converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got > his permission to post > the plain text version to the Siouan List. > > Enjoy! > -jm > > --------------------------------- > > hw[be, be? > def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? > > hw [b?es^ki > def[whoever, who + indefinite > > hw[d?adaN > def[what, something > > hw[d?NaNska > def[something, thing > > hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) > def[why? wherefore? > > hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) > def[why? > > hw[hag?odaN, -?? (MR) > def[why, how come, for what reason > > hw[hag?ha > def[where, whither, where to? > > hw[hag?j^idaN (JOD) > def[when, at the time, because > > hw[hakh?N > def[how far?, how long?, when? > > hw[hakh?Nda, -?N? (MR) > def[when, at what future time? > rem[v. hakh?Nj^i > > hw[hakh?Ngo (JOD) > def[when, at what point or time > > hw[v. hakh?Nj^i, -?N? (MR) > def[when, at what past time? > rem[v. hakh?Nda > > hw[hakh?Ns^ke (JOD) > def[sometime or other > > hw[hakh?Nz^i (JOD) > def[distance, at no great, not far > > hw[h?naN > def[how many, how much? > > hw[h?yoNska > def[how big, what size? > > hw[h?wa + positional article > def[where is the X shaped obj.? > > hw[h?wage`j^i > def[where, to what places > > hw[h?NoNs^ki (JOD) > def[random, at, in no particular > rem[place. > > hw[wi?Nma (JOD) > def[which, which one? > > hw[wi?Nmas^kid?N (JOD) > def[whichever, whichever one > > hw[w?aNmatta (JOD) > def[whose is it? Which one are > rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' > > > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 1 19:05:26 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:05:26 -0500 Subject: [Spam:0007 SpamScore] Re: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan Message-ID: Bruce, I suspect you didn't get the Quapaw set, as both those below are the Kaw. I sent the Quapaw set to a slightly different email address that was in my Address Book -- it must have been one you were using last year. Maybe it is your wife's email address. I'll try to resend the Quapaw from my "sent messages file". Bob > I think I got a bit confused between the Quapaw and the Kaw, when I was trying to fit it all into my data. I now think I know what is Kaw, after Justin's intervention, but I'm but sure which is the Quapaw. Below is what I have got down. Could you let me know if I'm very wrong anywhere. Don't worry about the transcription if it comes out looking nonsensical at the other end. I think it is OK this end Kansa or Kaw hanaska 'how big, what size' hakh?_ how far, how long' h?yo_ska how big, what size athaaha 'how deep' h?na_ 'how many, how much hana, hano, hanomucte 'how many, much' athakka 'how tall' d?ada_ 'what' ha, ho, hotha, tatta 'what, why' hakh?_da, hag?jida_, athatta 'when (future)' hakh?_go 'when, at what point of time' hag?ha, hakidede 'where, in which direction' ?wage`ji 'where, to what places' wi?_ma 'which, which one' be, howa 'who' h?ago, hag? haki, hanitta, honitta 'why' Quapaw h?yoska 'how big, what size' hakha? 'how far, how long, when' h?na 'how many, how much' hag?jida 'when, at the time, because' hakha?go 'when, at what point or time' hakha?ada, -a? 'when, at what future time? h?wage`ji 'where, to what places' hag?ha 'whither , where to' wia?ma 'which, which one' h?agohag? 'why' Bruce --- Justin McBride wrote: > Ho, zaan?N, > > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's > Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Instead of the nasal hooks > and stress marks on > the vowels, I got a seemingly random mix of question > marks and unmarked > vowels. I couldn't say for sure if it was just me, > since we were actually > having some other problems with our @kawnation.com > email server at the time. > But, of course, I was worried that it may not have > come through on someone > else's machine. Just in case it didn't, I ran > through his wordlist and > converted it to plain text. Over the weekend I got > his permission to post > the plain text version to the Siouan List. > > Enjoy! > -jm > > --------------------------------- > > hw[be, be? > def[who. be?itt?abe whose is it? > > hw [b?es^ki > def[whoever, who + indefinite > > hw[d?adaN > def[what, something > > hw[d?NaNska > def[something, thing > > hw[h?ago (JOD), hag? (MR) > def[why? wherefore? > > hw[hag? (MR), h?go (JOD) > def[why? > > hw[hag?odaN, -?? (MR) > def[why, how come, for what reason > > hw[hag?ha > def[where, whither, where to? > > hw[hag?j^idaN (JOD) > def[when, at the time, because > > hw[hakh?N > def[how far?, how long?, when? > > hw[hakh?Nda, -?N? (MR) > def[when, at what future time? > rem[v. hakh?Nj^i > > hw[hakh?Ngo (JOD) > def[when, at what point or time > > hw[v. hakh?Nj^i, -?N? (MR) > def[when, at what past time? > rem[v. hakh?Nda > > hw[hakh?Ns^ke (JOD) > def[sometime or other > > hw[hakh?Nz^i (JOD) > def[distance, at no great, not far > > hw[h?naN > def[how many, how much? > > hw[h?yoNska > def[how big, what size? > > hw[h?wa + positional article > def[where is the X shaped obj.? > > hw[h?wage`j^i > def[where, to what places > > hw[h?NoNs^ki (JOD) > def[random, at, in no particular > rem[place. > > hw[wi?Nma (JOD) > def[which, which one? > > hw[wi?Nmas^kid?N (JOD) > def[whichever, whichever one > > hw[w?aNmatta (JOD) > def[whose is it? Which one are > rem[you going to? Lit. 'at which one' > > > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 1 19:09:53 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:09:53 -0500 Subject: Quapaw WH-words redux. Message-ID: Bruce, Here is the Quapaw file again. Note the different font. Bob WH words from Quapaw. There are often doublets with nasal A and nasal O. In a few instances initial /h-/ seems to be missing. Common Dhegiha /th/ comes out as /th/ in Omaha, Ponca and Quapaw but /kh/ in Kansa and sometimes in Osage. The font here is SIL SSDoulosL for the PC (not Mac) as modified by John Koontz. Unfortunately I haven't converted my Quapaw file over to Gentium and Unicode yet. The font can be downloaded from John's website. While I was in Melbourne D.N.S. Bhat, the Indian scholar, did a typology of Q words for his native language (a Dravidian language). He had an interesting framework that might be helpful. I don't know where or when he might have published the study. hw[ath?ha] def[how deep] pos[Q] prv[analog of Kansa hakh?-] hw[ath?kk? (?)] def[how tall, how high] pos[Q] rem[aT?Ka in JOD] hw[ath?ttai tte] def[future time, at some] rem[aT?Tai Te in JOD] hw[ath?tt?] def[when, in future] rem[v. hath?tta] def[forever] pos[adv] rem[cf. bdoka. aT?Te in JOD] hw[ek??i] def[somewhere else, elsewhere] pos[adv] hw[ekk?tt?th?] def[time, from that same on] pos[adv] rem[probably -th? at end, not tt? = from (RLR)] hw[be] def[who] pos[Qprn] rem[interrog.] hw[b?a?i] def[nobody] rem[cf. be, beni?i] hw[b?ni?i] def[everyone] pos[n] hw[hak? hitt?, hak? itt?] def[wherever, anywhere] hw[h?ki] def[why, for what reason] pos[Q] hw[h?kidede] def[where, which direction] pos[Q] hw[h?kided?th?] def[where from, from whatever place] pos[Q] rem[This -T? is probably -th? = from (RLR)] hw[hak?th?] def[from whatever place] rem[This -T? is probably -th? 'from' (RLR)] hw[han?hitte] def[few, a, however many (?)] rem[v. hanaitte] hw[han? itte] def[however much or many] rem[v.hanahitte] hw[han? ?k?] def[some] hw[h?nask?] def[how big/small, what size] pos[Q] hw[h?naska n?n?] def[how big (is) each, (distributive)] pos[Q] hw[h?nask?ska] def[how big (is) each, (distrib.?)] pos[Q] hw[h?nask?ska hitt?] def[whatever size, however big] rem[-ska iT?] hw[han?, han?] def[how much, many] pos[Q] hw[han?hide] def[however many/much] 1sg[v. also han?] rem[v. -hitt?] hw[h?n?mu?te (CS)] def[how much, many] pos[Q] rem[v. han?; -u- is unexplained] hw[hath?tt?] def[when (in the future)] rem[also ath?tt?] hw[hath?tti] def[when, at what time] pos[Q] rem[haT?Ti] hw[h?, h?] def[what, how, in what manner] pos[Q] rem[in compound] hw[h?n?tt?, h?n?tt?] def[why] pos[Q] hw[h?th?h?, h?tt?h? (?)] def[once upon a time] pos[v?] rem[h?T?h?. Appears to be related to hath? 'when', q.v.] hw[hitt?] def[indefinite prn., (what)-ever] hw[h?wa (OM)] def[who] pos[Q] hw[h?wada-(positional)] def[where is/are the (class) obj?] pos[Qdem] hw[h?wathett?th?] def[from what sg/st/in or cl/in] pos[Qdem] 1sg[nearby] rem[howaTeTaT?] hw[h?wathett?th?] def[from what sg/st/in or cl/in] pos[Qdem] 1sg[far away] rem[howaTeTiT?] hw[h?watta] def[whose] pos[Q] rem[howa+itta] hw[h?wa?i] def[nobody (JOD)] pos[prn] rem[nowhere?] hw[h?th?] def[why? (?) (when? RLR)] pos[Q] rem[h?T?] hw[h?th?hi (?), h?th?hi] def[then, at length] rem[v. h?th?hi, cf. Kansa hakh?-?; h?T?hi in JOD] hw[h?the, h?tte (?)] def[why, how] pos[Q] rem[v. h?] hw[t?tt?] def[what, something] pos[Q/n] rem[T?T?] hw[t?tt???] def[nothing] pos[n] rem[v. t?tt?] hw[watt? (?)] def[why, wherefore] rem[No Osage cognate found; waT? JOD] From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 19:44:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:44:24 +0100 Subject: Siouan Wh-words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Was anyone able to supply Winnebago? I think one Winnebago word turns up in my data, though I'm not sure who supplied it Bruce ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/ From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 20:18:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 21:18:24 +0100 Subject: Quapaw WH-words redux. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob Bruce --- "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > Bruce, > > > > Here is the Quapaw file again. Note the different > font. > > > > Bob ___________________________________________________________ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 01:13:10 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:13:10 -0600 Subject: Dakotan T-words and there equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: <003501c66d2d$0b1884f0$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > Last week I had some problems receiving Dr. Rankin's Unicode Kaw spellings > to the T-word questions. Thanks - I was in the same boat! From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 2 02:02:44 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:02:44 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <004401c66d35$a0cab010$1821a8c0@Language> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > u, v. to wound > > aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) > y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? This really is weird! You've hit all the nails on the head nicely. I wonder what the OP and OS slips say! > Furthermore, the verb is made all the trickier by the fact that some > of the salient details of its construction, i.e., the o root and the y > element of the causative ye, bear striking resemblances to the usual > epenthetic glides w and y that emerge in certain casual speech environments > and that may be omitted generally as non-phonemic. Here, though, they're > not epenthetic at all. Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two further, the forms here are something like A1 a-o a e au A2 y(a)-o a e au A3 o-be au I take it that hiN is a question particle? Kind of reminds me of French "hien?" The a e is problematic as a causative, as you point out. One thing to ask about is the -e in =be. I think the Osage plural-proximate has variants pi ~ pa ~ pe, in which a and e are perhaps male and female declarative particles, a bit like OP ha and he in the older texts (replaced for males by hau today). If the -e in =be is at all amenable to this, then perhaps the A3 form is: A1 a-o a e au A2 y(a)-o a e au A3 o-b e au (actually plural, of course) I'm not bothered by the stacked declaratives. That's a frequent Siouan pattern. But the e ought to be the feminine declarative, while I assume au is masculine. And this still doesn't account for the a in the A1 and A2 forms. Perhaps the a or ae reflect a reduced version of a "suddenly" or "aorist" modal. You find sequences like dheadhe and dhedhadhe (yeaye 'I cause to go' and yeyaye 'you cause to go') attached to OP verbs, along with other such inflected forms, with the reading 'suddenly' or 'began to', and they are inflected in parallel with the main verb. They are also (in speech) highly reduced and hard to hear properly. In short, the context where you expect to hear yaye as 'a'e (using ' in the English sense), thoygh maybe not yeyaye as 'a'e. A1 a-o a (y)e au A2 y(a)-o (y)a (y)e au It occurs to me also that the third person we are using here is from an example, not the paradigm. Maybe it is in a different aspectual context and lacks the auxiliary. > taciyaNmak? ?= dji ?= be a?, Cay?ni ab?: [the knee] it LOC A3 wound PLUR DECL Cheyennes the the Cheyennes wounded him on his knee I'm not trying to parse out taciyaNmak?, though it looks like it has either ak[h]a or kh[a] 'the'. Notice that 'to wound' takes the place wounded as a locative complement. The person wounded is the (here implicit) object. Are there any other unexpected a e sequences at the end of verbs before au? From lameen at gmail.com Tue May 2 10:54:27 2006 From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:54:27 +0100 Subject: Siouan-Catawban reduplication - a bunch of questions... In-Reply-To: <44520C25.31169.55B12B@localhost> Message-ID: Thank you, everybody who replied to this question! Several people expressed interest in reading the essay; now that I've handed it in, it can be downloaded from: http://lameen.googlepages.com/reduplicationinSiouan.doc The main conclusions were that: * Proto-Siouan-Catawban (and Proto-Siouan-Yuchi, but not Proto-Macro-Siouan) productively formed pluractionals from verb stems by full stem reduplication. Every branch of the family exhibits reflexes of this process, although these have often been affected by semantic extensions and morphological contractions. * Stoney "adversative" reduplication is most probably borrowed from a Salish language. Lameen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue May 2 23:36:53 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:36:53 EDT Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish to be on the program, please send the title of your proposed paper or presentation to rgraczyk at aol.com by email or as an email attachment. Mailing address for those who wish: Randolph Graczyk, PO Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066. A brief abstract or description of your topic would also be appreciated. The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference has traditionally been quite informal and open. Language-related topics ranging from very technical linguistics to methods and problems encountered in teaching Siouan and Caddoan languages, language preservation and revitalization, etc., are all welcome. Presentations may be formal and read aloud or they may be open discussions of particular problems and topics. Time slots for presentations will be 30 minutes unless more or less time is specifically requested by the presenter (we will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is anticipated that there will be participation from members of the Crow Nation and others involved in language teaching and revitalization efforts. Any special requests for equipment such as projector, tape recorder, computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk as soon as possible. There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for participants ($5 for students) to cover the costs of coffee-break refreshments. The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain College, a small private college (about 900 students) located in Billings, Montana. Lodging will be available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an apartment-style facility with units of four bedrooms with a common kitchenette and living area. The cost will be $24 per night. If you are planning to stay at the college, please let Randy know as soon as possible; the college will need a number beforehand. Campus recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise equipment, etc.) will be available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time of the conference, depending on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food service will also be available on campus. Billings is served by several major airlines; if you need a pick-up at the airport, please contact Randy. There are also numerous motels in Billings; check your favorite travel websites for information. Please let us know if you plan to attend the conference, even if you are not planning to give a talk, so that we will know how many people to expect. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC Announcement & Call for papers.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 27136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 3 14:57:22 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:57:22 +0100 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy I attach an abstract Yours Bruce --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN > LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE > > Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 > > LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana > > ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish > to be on the program, > please send the title of your proposed paper or > presentation to rgraczyk at aol.com > by email or as an email attachment. Mailing address > for those who wish: > Randolph Graczyk, PO Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066. A > brief abstract or description of > your topic would also be appreciated. > > The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan > Conference has traditionally > been quite informal and open. Language-related > topics ranging from very > technical linguistics to methods and problems > encountered in teaching Siouan and > Caddoan languages, language preservation and > revitalization, etc., are all welcome. > Presentations may be formal and read aloud or they > may be open discussions > of particular problems and topics. Time slots for > presentations will be 30 > minutes unless more or less time is specifically > requested by the presenter (we > will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is > anticipated that there will > be participation from members of the Crow Nation and > others involved in > language teaching and revitalization efforts. > > Any special requests for equipment such as > projector, tape recorder, > computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk > as soon as possible. > > There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for > participants ($5 for > students) to cover the costs of coffee-break > refreshments. > > The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain > College, a small private > college (about 900 students) located in Billings, > Montana. Lodging will be > available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an > apartment-style facility with units > of four bedrooms with a common kitchenette and > living area. The cost will be > $24 per night. If you are planning to stay at the > college, please let Randy > know as soon as possible; the college will need a > number beforehand. Campus > recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise > equipment, etc.) will be > available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time > of the conference, depending > on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food > service will also be available > on campus. > > Billings is served by several major airlines; if you > need a pick-up at the > airport, please contact Randy. There are also > numerous motels in Billings; > check your favorite travel websites for information. > > Please let us know if you plan to attend the > conference, even if you are not > planning to give a talk, so that we will know how > many people to expect. > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: resemblances between #56321.doc Type: application/msword Size: 32768 bytes Desc: 2193023135-resemblances between #56321.doc URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 17:15:38 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:15:38 -0600 Subject: [S**m:0007 Sp**Score] Re: Dakotan T-words ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It occurs to me that it's probably a good idea to delete Spam ratings from titles if your system inserts them into posts you receive, since some folks may be filtering things with "spam" in the subject into the bit bucket. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 18:41:18 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:41:18 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <001c01c66c0b$e006cd20$e34c133f@JIMM> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Some time ago, the list was addressing the conjugation of the verb "?o'" > (??) [wound] which occurs in many Siouan Languages. While looking for > something else, in "A Dictionary of Everyday Crow", Crow Agency > Bilingual Education Program. 1987 (revised), I came upon: > > 1. uua' (v tr) /uu/ shoot -- on p.20. No conjugations were provided. > Then > In "Crow word list", Lowie. 1960. p.170: > u': (u) to shoot, wound, hit > > ma u' om they shot some (game) > > akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k > one of the Cheyenne headcutters) I shot > > u'ak arapapa'ce de'sa ka'te tseruk > when they hit him, the bullet did not go in I make these bauuo-m 'they (diff subj) shot something' (ba)buu-k 'I shot them' (not sure about the ba-) uua-k 'he wounded (hit) him' (or 'it hit him'?) Looks like in Crow this is a regular verb with the stem uu-, the citation form uua, and the plural stem/citation form uuo. However, I am puzzled about when -a- appears, and unsure about bma-/a- (presumably the old familiar wa-). Also from the DEC: > 2. oo'xpe (v tr) /i/ shoot, wound -- p.x; 20: > He... oo'xpik; They... oo'xpuuk > I... boo'xpik; We... boo'xpuuk > you... doo'xpik; You (pl) doo'xpuuk > Shoot! oo'xpih; Shoot! (pl) oo'xpaalah I believe this is also regular, for Crow verbs with initial oo-, and I'm guessing the oo- is a locative, with the actual root being -xpe. > I also note that Hidatsa "Wordlist", Jones. Preliminary Version, 1979: > 1. Shoot u?u-axbi; ni?i > 2. Shoot & hit ??u I think Hi u?u matches Cr uua, and that both forms suggest *?uu(-e) (-e being the theme forming vowel) or perhaps *uu?-e. This wouldn't be the first Siouan glottal stop form in whichb it wasn't clear if the glottal stop was initial or final. They seem to be a supersegmental characteristic of the root, diachronically, rather than a segment with a fixed position. Actually, I think the historical vowel here is *oo-, so *?oo-e. > 3, Shoot at ?rigi; ni > (No conjugations offered) Not related, I think. > Now then... Does any of the above shed any new light on arriving at > likely conjugations for the verb - ?o' (??). Could this be a word that > conjugates similar to the IOM: ?uN' (??n = to do, make; act as/ in > manner of), namely: I... ha?uN'; you... ra?uN'; we... hin?uN'wi; > etc. I'd say, yes, though of course this is simple guesswork. In such matters you have to have a citation to be sure. For Winnebago, Marino's dictionary based on Radin's lexical slips, has (p. 126): ?o 'to shoot' ?onaN 'to shoot' (with declarative =s^aNnaN ~ =naN) [i.e., 'he shoots'?] ha?onaN 'I shoot' s^?onaN 'you shoot' (I've modernized and rendered into network notation Radin's BAE-style notation, retained by Mary in her dissertation.) In Mississippi Valley Dakotan and Dhegiha suggest m- for the first person of glottal stop stems. Since all glottal stop stems but 'wound' begin with a nasal vowel (and usually end with it, too), this is presumably *w-. Winnebago and IO (following Jimm) have ha- from regular *wa-, probably a simple replacement. For example, Winnebago ha?uN 'I make'. Presumably this was *muNuN in PMV Siouan. Perhaps if the original first person of 'wound' was *woo-e (*woo?e maybe?), and regular fist person *wa- becomes *ha- in IO and WI, then *woo-e became *hoo-e. Recent attested forms like ha?oo in Winnebago could be back-formations "undoing the contraction" or simple replacements. In MV Dakotan has n- for the second person, presumably from s^n-, which seems to have been taken over from the nasal version of the y-stem (*r-stem) paradigm. Dhegiha has z^- < PMV *y-, consistent with the PS A2 regular inflection *ya-. In a few verbs with preceding i- we find s^n- and developments of that. In Winnebago we find s^?- in the second person, in which the ? is actually a part of the stem. IO seems to have replaced a form like that with ra-?- in 'to make'. In Dakotan (mostly) and in Winnebago we also find k?- in *ki- derivatives. In Dhegiha we find *k- (OP g-). I've suggested in the past that the waffling in respect of ? when a consonant prececdes, e.g., in the second peson and *ki forms, implies that the glottal stop stems were actually vowel-initial. In that case, ?, when it occurs is by analogy with contexts in which it occurs epenthetically, e.g., between vowels, perhaps, or initially. Another approach arises from the "supersegmental" character of ? i ?-stems. Perhaps Dhegiha z^- reflects a situation in which the glottal stop has been forced to the end of the stem, while Winnebago s^?- and various cases of k?- reflect cases where it appears stem-initially, perhaps as a result of some sort of canonical solidification of ? as an initial segment. In any event, 'wound' seems to be the only known glottal stop stem with an oral vowel. So if the IO glottal stop stem ?uN 'make' is inflected ha?uN 'I make, ra?uN 'you make', then by analogy o 'wound' might be ha?o 'I wound' and ra?o 'you wound'. If it were regular it would certainly be very similar, and an epenthetic glottal stop would take it the rest of the way. In support of this conclusion, when collectors of linguistic data omit inflectional information, they often mean to imply that a verb is regular. Unfortunately this might also reflect ignorance or oversight. Attestation is everything in a case like this. We simply don't know how the IO form was inflected at this point. To illustrate the risk in assuming a paradigm by analogy with 'to make', I can point out that OP baN 'to call out' is regular, though it starts with a b and OP has an active b-stem paradigm, e.g., A1 abaN, not A1 *ppaN. I think the stem is doubly inflected as regular over p-stem in Osage, however, i.e., appaN. Presumably it was a *p-stem in Proto-Dhegiha. Another example would be the only OP d-stem, daNbe 'to see, to look'. It was a pure d-stem in Dorsey's texts (I think there might be one or two exceptions), but today it is regular over d-stem, e.g., A1 attaNbe instead of earlier A1 ttaNbe. This is not to say that one couldn't "restore" something reasonable for 'wound' when in need of an inflected form for actual use. Speakers do this all the time, and even get it wrong, which, of course, is part of the process by which inflection changes in the first place. However, a form like this is the philological analog of modern paint replacing a peeled spot in an old work. From a purist point of view you have to say - or imply notationally - that the deduced paradigm is hypothetical. Instead of writing something like o [a?o, ra?o], one would ideally write something like o [maybe ha?o, ra?o] or o [ha?o, ra?o by analogy with uN]. So, while it's interesting to see comparisons outside IO that confirm the stem 'wound' as a PS glottal stop stem, only an IO example would confirm the IO pattern. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 3 19:09:24 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > u, v. to wound > > > > aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) > > y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > further, the forms here are something like > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > A2 y(a)-o a e au > A3 o-be au I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. A1 a-o-a e au A2 y(a)-o-a e au A3 o=b(i) e For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on OP. At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Wed May 3 19:28:55 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Randy: I am sorry to say I am not gonna be able to attend the conference. I have a book that I am supposed to finish by August 1st, and so I have decided not to go to any conferences or workshops this summer. I hope y'all have a wonderful and productive time. Willem de Reuse From rwd0002 at unt.edu Wed May 3 19:42:49 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503145722.39417.qmail@web26808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting shokooh Ingham : > Dear Randy > I attach an abstract > Yours > Bruce > --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: Dear Bruce: Thank you for attaching this very interesting abstract. Since I am not gonna be able to attend the conference, I wanted to point out to you one phonetic (not phonological) similarity between Cree and Lakota. Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) with Lakota kaka [qaqa] 'baby's word for grandfather' (as pronounced by an Oglala woman). I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s in the Northern Plains. All the best, Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 3 20:42:44 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:42:44 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > u, v. to wound > > > > aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) > > y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > further, the forms here are something like > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > A2 y(a)-o a e au > A3 o-be au I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. A1 a-o-a e au A2 y(a)-o-a e au A3 o=b(i) e For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on OP. At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 3 21:22:03 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:22:03 +0100 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503144249.65uq5i2te34ssgk0@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Dear Willem It sounds like Turkish. They do the same with kalpak 'hat' which sounds like qalpaq,a as in kara kalpak 'black hats'. When it is written in the Arabic script they often use the Arabic letter qaf for it. Thanks for pasing it on Yours Bruce--- rwd0002 at unt.edu wrote: > Quoting shokooh Ingham : > > > Dear Randy > > I attach an abstract > > Yours > > Bruce > > --- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > > Dear Bruce: > > Thank you for attaching this very interesting > abstract. Since I am not > gonna be able to attend the conference, I wanted to > point out to you > one phonetic (not phonological) similarity between > Cree and Lakota. > Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], > in the environment > of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least > as pronounced by > Buffy Sainte Marie) with Lakota kaka [qaqa] 'baby's > word for > grandfather' (as pronounced by an Oglala woman). > > I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s > in the Northern Plains. > > All the best, > > Willem de Reuse > ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 3 21:34:34 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:34:34 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? initial root to PSi. The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau ([wa?u]). David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. > > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: "WOUND" > > > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > > u, v. to wound > > > > > > aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) > > > y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? > > > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > > further, the forms here are something like > > > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > > A2 y(a)-o a e au > > A3 o-be au > > I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks > has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < > PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of > Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun > *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. > > I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel > (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that > this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. > > A1 a-o-a e au > A2 y(a)-o-a e au > A3 o=b(i) e > > For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of > the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on > OP. > > At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by > comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a > punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. > > > > > From heike.boedeker at netcologne.de Thu May 4 11:08:20 2006 From: heike.boedeker at netcologne.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:08:20 +0200 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060503144249.65uq5i2te34ssgk0@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Dear Willem, > Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the > environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as > pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the Plains and Montagnais varieties I came to hear. But also in the Turkish varieties I mostly hear around here or on TV the k/q allophony is not as pronounced as e.g. in Xalxa Mongolian. But then, also Turkish vowels even on TV aren't what they should be according to textbooks. An acquaintance from Istanbul used to complain a lot about that dreadful way of speaking... > I don't know what other languages do with their [k]s in the > Northern Plains. Me neither. At least according to how I remember Blackfoot, Tsuut'ina and Nakoda. All the best, Heike From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 15:32:00 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:32:00 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: That's a really good point. David is probably on the right track, and by extension, the conservative (unattested) form for 'I wounded it' would then probably be *[b-o]. The only problem beside the lack of a form [uNk?ipi] is the consistent initial /h/ in 'come' in many of the other languages. But as I think we've said before, that H is probably an analogical development based on /hi/ 'arrive'. It remains to check the 1st du. and pl. forms of 'come' in Chiwere, Dhegiha, etc., although the 1st pl. forms, as I think John said, are notoriously poor preservers of [?]. Bob Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? initial root to PSi. The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau ([wa?u]). David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. These are syncopating stems in the cases we have in which the verb root has a nasal vowel, so Dhegiha *?uN: 'do, be' is conjugated /muN/, /z^uN/. Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not germaine to the discussion. > > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom line is that apparently we still don't know. An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those forms be? In Dhegiha, probably /z^-/ in the 2nd person, but what about the 1st person? And what about Dakotan? Is the oral variant of [m] a [w] or a [b] preceding an underlying glottal stop that was lost here? Would Dakotan have been *[bo], *[do], [bo], [no], [mo], [no] or what? I suspect we'll never know. The analogically regular forms are prehistoric and were never recorded as far as I know. One of life's little mysteries. . . . > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Wed 5/3/2006 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: "WOUND" > > > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Justin McBride wrote: > > > u, v. to wound > > > > > > aw? e a?, I have wounded it (=?-u-?-ye a? ?) > > > y?a e a?, hiN, have you wounded it? > > > Pursuing your logic, which starts with Dorsey's and takes it a step or two > > further, the forms here are something like > > > > A1 a-o a e au I should have written a-(o) a e au. JEK > > A2 y(a)-o a e au > > A3 o-be au > > I wondered momentarily about Ks yo anent PMV *yo 'you wound'. However, Ks > has regular A2 ya < PDH *dha (*ra) < PMV *ra. Ks has z^ from PDh *z^ < > PMV *y. Ks has z^ in the second person of ?-stems like the rest of > Dhegiha, not y. In other words, the full PS second person active pronoun > *ya and the short form *y diverge in Dhegiha and in MV generally. > > I suppose it's possible, however, that the -a- bit is the old theme vowel > (-e in *oo-e), but that doesn't explain e, and we'd have to assume that > this fossil theme vowel was lost before the plural/proximate marker. > > A1 a-o-a e au > A2 y(a)-o-a e au > A3 o=b(i) e > > For what it's worth, this back and forth analysis and counter analysis of > the stuff after the verb reminds a lot of the state of Dorsey's notes on > OP. > > At least I hypothesize that we will be able to figure out the ae by > comparing with "other short verbs" on the one hand and things that like a > punctual reading (like push, shove, spit, throw, etc.) on the other. > > > > > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu May 4 16:15:44 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:15:44 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 16:19:44 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:19:44 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Since Catawba does not possess a cognate to Siouan /hi/ 'arrive', but does possess the verb /hu:/ 'come', it is unlikely that the initial /h/ in the Catawba verb is analogical, which in turn suggests that the initial /h/ in the cognate Siouan verb is not analogical. Perhaps the reverse is true, i.e. that the /h/-less forms in Siouan are somehow analogical in Siouan, although I have not idea what the source for the analogy might be. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 4 17:11:37 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:11:37 EDT Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: We'll miss you, Willem. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 17:55:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Another interesting observation, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The verbs of motion form a systematic and symmetrical group of verbs and Catawba may have indeed had /hi/ at some point. It's just very hard to know these things with the state of Catawba what it was when Siebert and others did their field work. There are many other question marks. [h] is the regular reflex of initial glottal stop in Biloxi and apparently Tutelo, and there are h/? correspondences in Algonquian also, so some sort of areal passage of ?>h is a possibility, esp. in the SE. But the presence of /hu:/ in Catawba is a definite problem no matter what. Is the /h/ present throughout the conjugation (lack of consistency is a feature of the Siouan conjugation)? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 11:19 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" Since Catawba does not possess a cognate to Siouan /hi/ 'arrive', but does possess the verb /hu:/ 'come', it is unlikely that the initial /h/ in the Catawba verb is analogical, which in turn suggests that the initial /h/ in the cognate Siouan verb is not analogical. Perhaps the reverse is true, i.e. that the /h/-less forms in Siouan are somehow analogical in Siouan, although I have not idea what the source for the analogy might be. Blair From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 18:04:36 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:04:36 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: There is no real "TH" sound (as in "thin") actually attested in either Osage or Omaha/Ponca. The people who described this were likely hearing a version of S pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the back of the lower teeth -- in linguistic terms, a dental S. So Mark is right, as was Dorsey. Note that Dorsey's field work was done either earlier than Laflesche's. Since Osage and Omaha had S in Dorsey's time and S after Laflesche's time, it is entirely unlikely that they had TH for a few years in between. But there is a major problem with the use of c-cedilla. It represents not only S but also Z !! You just have to known which words have S and which have Z. Laflesche wrote si 'foot' and zi 'yellow' alike, but they are. of course, different. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 11:15 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: WHICH IS IT? In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 18:19:43 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:19:43 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu May 4 18:50:16 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:50:16 -0700 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <403.f34af5.318b9fbf@aol.com> Message-ID: This is interesting--no distinction between 3rd person singular and 1st person plural? Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Thu May 4 19:08:20 2006 From: BARudes at aol.com (BARudes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:08:20 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: All sorts of unexpected homophony occur in mutating verbs. For example, the second person singular and the third person plural forms of -ka:n- 'see' are identical: y'a:nire: 'you (sg)/they see'; the second person plural and the third person plural of -kuN- 'give' are identical: w'uNre: 'you (pl.)/they give'; the first plural and third plural of -ra:- go are identical: n'a:re: 'we/they go'; the second singular, third singular, and third plural of -ya:- 'dig' are identical: y'a:re: 'you (sg)/he, she, it/they dig', etc. Blair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 4 19:15:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:15:09 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Blair, Thanks for the information. Life just gets complicateder and complicateder, doesn't it? Each time I think I've found an answer, something comes along to raise more questions. I guess that's the "sport" of what we do. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of BARudes at aol.com Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 1:19 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" Bob, Catawba /-hu:-/ is a mutating verb where the initial consonant changes to indicate subject : -hu :- 'come' c'u:re: 'I come' y'u:re: 'you (sg.) come' h'u:re: 'he, she, it comes' h'u:re: 'we come' w'u:re: 'you (pl.) come' ir'u:re: 'they come' Of the other mutating verbs, the conjugation of /-hu:-/ is most like the conjugation of the verb /-ri:-/ 'be located' (Saraw dialect) (/-re:-/ in the Esaw dialect) : -ri:- 'be located' c'i:re: 'I am located' y'i:ire: 'you (sg.) are located' d'i:re: 'he, she, it is located' h'i:re: 'we are located' w'i:re: 'you (pl.) are located' ir'i:re: 'they are located' It has generally been assumed that the third person singular forms of mutating verbs take a zero allomorph of the third person. For example, /-ri:-/ 'be located' + /-re:/ 'independent mode' becomes /d'i:re:/ with the regular, automatic shift of /r/ to /d/ in initial position before an oral vowel. Based on this assumption, the bare stem of the verb 'come' would be /-hu:-/. It is, however, possible that the initial /h/ here is an atypical manifestation of the third person singular subject prefix /h(i)-/ on a mutating verb. If so, then the original form of the verb would have been *-u:-. There is, however, no direct evidence for such a proto-form; at the same time, there are no (other) mutating verbs that begin with a vowel. There are also no other mutating verbs that have root-initial /h/ and an initial /h/ in the third person form. So, an analogical explanation is a possibility for the initial /h/ of Catawba /-hu:-/ 'come'. Blair From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 4 20:25:29 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:25:29 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: This is a late contribution to the 'wound' discussion. I'm behind on my e-mail. uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different subject' akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k 'one of the Cheyenne (headcutters) I shot': The last word is clearly buu'k 'I shot'. The ba is a puzzle, since the sentence has a lexical object and I wouldn't expect an indefinite here. One remote possibility: uu' is (or was) a doubly-inflecting verb. u'ak: This is uu'-ak; ak is the same subject marker. oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial verbs not accented on the first mora. It could be that oo- is a locative prefix, although these are regularly accented on the initial vowel in Crow: a', i', o'. There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:22:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:22:30 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal > prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. ... > Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not > germaine to the discussion. Well, not germane to that aspect of the discussion, but I think Jimm's primary concern is actually just what the inflection of the verb o(o) 'wound' was in IO, in the absence of attestation, and in that case the patterns in IO for uN(uN) are relevant, as are, perhaps, the ones in Winnebago. I think Jimm knows that this verb is one of the awkward ones, though, and he's looking for anything to shed light on the problem. I think it's likely that the verb was A1 *ha?oo, A2 *ra?oo, A3 oo, maybe A12 *hiN?oo, and that at some point before that (maybe most recently in proto-Chiwere-Winnebago) it must have been something like A1 *ha?oo, A2 s^?oo or *s^oo, A3 *oo, A12 *hiN?oo, to judge from the attested Winnebago forms. For that matter, I could imagine more complex possibilities like a second person *ras^?oo. The actual forms must have varied across time, and, given the number of different groups speaking IO c. 1800, they may well have been different in space, too. But for Jimm I think the question is less one of the reconstructive possibilities at given points, than a philological problem of what he is justified in putting in his dictionary and and an applied one of what he could suggest that would be speakers use. Philologically he can't put anything, I think, except A1 unknown, etc. But in an applied sense he might want to recommend something by analogy with uN or the regular paradigm, and I think the two are close enough to suggest a working answer. However the applied use reader would want to know that in this case the form is a guess, and, of course, a historical linguist would very much want to know what was attested and what was guesswork. > As John says, *?o: 'wound' is the only known case of a ?-stem with an > oral vowel. So, what was the conservative (syncopating) pronoun > allomorph used before analogy yielded regularized forms? The bottom > line is that apparently we still don't know. See my comment on Randy's remarks. > An educated GUESS might be that the pronominals should be oral versions > of */m-/ and */y- ~ r/ in the 1st and 2nd persons, but what would those > forms be? .... > Would Dakotan have been {A1} *[bo], {A2} *[do], {A1}[bo], {A2} [no], > {A1} [mo], {A2} [no] or what? I'd guess PS A1 *woo, A2 *yoo, A3 *[?]oo, but more like PMV A1 *boo (maybe *woo), A2 *z^oo, A3 *oo. I'm pretty sure that the n in the second person of Dakotan glottal stems, e.g., nuN 'you do' is contamination from the y-stems (*r-stems), and so I plump for the Dhegiha second persons in z^-, e.g., OP z^aN as the model, over Winnebago s^?uNuN or Dakota nuN. The Dakota pattern is even seen in some verbs in Dhegiha, cf. OP 'the (sitting)': A1 miNkhe, A2 (s^)niNkhe ~ (s^)niNkhe=s^e, A3 dhiNkhe; or OP 'to interrogate': A1 imaNghe, A2 i(s^)naNghe, A3 iwaNghe ~ idhaNghe. (I think these are all OP forms, but other Dhegiha adds further alternates, including first persons on the order of *ibdhaNghe.) I suspect these verbs are just irregular glottal stop stems, unusual in that they have second and third persons on the *r-stem model, but showing their true colors in the first person. In the second case the -w- and -dh- after the locative i- are potentially epenthetic. It's not so clear what's happening in the first case. However, extra or epenthetic -dh- < PMV *r in these forms tends to explain how *r-stems manage to contaminate the *?-stems: the epenthetic *r in the third person is simply taken as organic and new second and/or first persons are produced, modelled on the *r-stems. If you consider that stems like *?uN 'to do' seem to have had derivatives like *i...uN 'to do with; to use', it begins to look like most *?-stems might have had a potential for *r-stem contamination. In addition, even if we consider *...(i)iNk(e)=...he and *i...uNx(e) not to be glottal stop stems, even if we decide they are a special kind of stem traceable to PMV, they do provide a basis for the analogical change of *?-stem second persons from *z^- or *s^- to *n-. We do have to assume that this n- is from earlier *s^n-, but it's pretty clear that l- in the second person of Dakotan y-stems (*r-stems) is from earlier *s^l-, too, so this shouldn't be a problem. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:41:34 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:41:34 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2006, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Bob, is the verb 'come', "u" in Lakota, a ?-stem? It isn't in Lak. > itself, because the first plural is unkupi, not unk?upi, but I don't know > whether you reconstruct a difference between a vowel-initial and a ? > initial root to PSi. > The reason this is relevant is that the compound hiyu 'start > coming' is, in the "archaic" language of 70-100 years ago, double > conjugated wahibu, yahilu (no one does this today as far as I know). I > can't find my copy of Riggs at the moment, to check on whether the bare > verb was ever conjugated bu, du or not; Buechel gives only wau > ([wa?u]). I agree entirely that -u in hiyu looks like an oral gottal stop stem. It even has an epenthetic -y- in the third person. However, *?u (*hu ?) seems to be a special case. In addition, in Dakotan the vertitive is ku, not *khu. In fact, the vertitive stem is consistent with *ku elsewhere in Siouan, I think, cf. OP gi. But i < *hi 'arrive there', cf. OP hi, has a vertitive khi, cf. OP khi. Further confirmation that ?-stems have k-derivatives in k, not k? (or kh) is found in OP egaN 'be like that' (A1 egimaN, A2 egiz^aN, A3 egaN) which seems to be historically a dative 'thus wrt that' of e-aN 'thus; how is it that', based on the protean *?uN 'do, make'. However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. So Dakotan (hi)bu may well show the original form of the glottal stop stem inflection in the first person. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 01:54:29 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:54:29 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > David is probably on the right track, and by extension, the conservative > (unattested) form for 'I wounded it' would then probably be *[b-o]. > The only problem beside the lack of a form [uNk?ipi] is the consistent > initial /h/ in 'come' in many of the other languages. Yes, though as I never tire of pointing out, the h is *not* entirely consistent, unlike the h in *hi 'arrive there'. Actually Dakotan loses h in that, but losing initial h in verbs is consistent in Dakotan. Dakotanists are now going to wonder, "What about hi 'arrive here'?" But this h is from PMV *th, cf. OP thi 'arrive here'. Another example is *thu 'to copulate with'. Dakotan has hu; OP has (wa)c^hi, diminutivized from (wa)thi. > But as I think we've said before, that H is probably an analogical > development based on /hi/ 'arrive'. It might be analogical. I've read ahead to the Catawban data presented by Blair. The h here is a bit like the pesky extra *r (from my perspective, anyway) in OP dhiNkhe. > It remains to check the 1st du. and pl. forms of 'come' in Chiwere, > Dhegiha, etc., although the 1st pl. forms, as I think John said, are > notoriously poor preservers of [?]. Actually, I think there is some variability in duals (and vertitives) with the (standard, nasal) ?-stems in Dakotan, if I remember the sum total of forms in Buechel and Boas & Deloria. So, I tend to think that ? in Dakotan duals and vertitives and datives, and also in Winnebago second persons in s^?- is to some extent analogical. However, Jimm's Crow and Hidatsa examples drew my attention to the fact that Crow and Hidatsa have -?-e at the end of 'wound'. So I wonder to what extent ?-stems might be able to have ? show up at either end, at least in PMV. I think that Mandan tends to have *C?V appearing as CV?, too, in ejective sets, right? Anyway, it appears that ? in ?-stems is real enough. It's just not always very consistent about where and whether it pops up. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 02:26:03 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:26:03 -0600 Subject: WHICH IS IT? In-Reply-To: <06f301c66f96$57809560$f345133f@JIMM> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. > LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" > Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." > > Which way is it? Are they both correct? About the first thing I remember learning about c-cedilla in Osage is that nobody but LaFlesche heard it as theta. But LaFlesche uses c-cedilla for s and z in both Osage and Omaha(-Ponca) and clearly describes it as sounding like theta. When I was reading through the Dorsey files at the NAA c. 1985 I happened, quite by accident, on a note by Dorsey to the effect that s is pronounced s, except that some Omahas pronounce it as th(eta), among them Frank LaFlesche. It might have been on the first slip of the s's in Dorsey's slip file. After that I noticed that Alice Fletcher, whose fairly attrocious Omaha transcriptions are usually deservedly ignored, often wrote s as th, e.g., in transcribing the names attached to the houses in her map of the Village of Make-Believe Whitemen, i.e., Francis LaFlesche's home town, and the point of origin of many of the Omahas that Fletcher (and Dorsey) worked on. I don't remember an s-example at the moment, though, perversely, I do remember "Brontee" or bdhaN-thi 'odor arrives'. Though this might be rendered 'smelly' it probably refers to the scent of an animal reaching a character in a clan myth. My guess is that s was theta (and z was edh) in the dialect of the residents of the Village of Make Believe White Men. Perhaps it was Otoe influence? It wouldn't need to be, of course, but LaFlesche's mother was an Otoe, and the stories from the VOMBW residents talk a lot about interactions with the Otoes. The final piece in the puzzle is that the pronunciation key for the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary is essentially the same one he used for Omaha work, as is the transcription itself. Since the book was published postumously, without his help in the final stages, it's just possible he might have meant to revise the key to indicate that c-cedilla was pronounced like s in Osage, along with other similar comments. He may not even have written the key as such in this instance. It's the kind of thing that might have been left to the final editing. Incidentally, c-cedilla is the standard BAE character for theta. Dorsey uses it in transribing Ioway-Otoe theta. He turns it over to produce a "sonant" version - z or a muted s. Dorsey says somewhere in his notes that he prefers the inverted letters, but he wrote them in ms. with a little x under the regular letter. It appears that Francis LaFlesche, whether on his own or in response to a change in BAE policy, converted the little x into a dot. Or maybe it's just a coincidence? In any event, he uses under-dotted ptk for Dorsey's turned orinverted ptk, written ptk with a little x under them in the Dorsey mms. (And Buechel uses dots to indicate "lack of aspiration" in Lakota, too, I notice.) I sometimes wonder if Francis LaFlesche meant to put a little x or dot under c-cedilla standing for z, but decided that it got in the way of the tail of the cedilla. He definitely used the dots with ptk in Omaha. They are there in his ms. list of Omaha names of rivers, though they are missing throughout Fletcher & LaFlesche, including in this list. Although Dorsey and Fletcher both support theta, it's possible that the theta was simply a very dental s as Bob suggests. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 5 02:33:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:33:09 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <317.412c35a.318bbd39@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) > 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) For what it's worth, although these are amenable to interpretation as regular inflection (with loss of the pronominal vowel through contraction) they might just as well be the regular Crow reflexes of the glottal stop stem inflectional pattern. In fact, even if they went to the trouble of changing *buu (or *boo) to *bauu (or *baoo) and back again, I doubt we'd be allowed to write it up that way in a historical analysis. > Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different > subject' I was pretty close! Of course, I was using Randy's grammar as reference! > oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 > d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial > verbs not accented on the first mora. ... I have wondered if these > aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with > the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). That seems much more likely. I now remember you telling me this about some initial oo and me thinking it seemed likely that time, too! From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 5 12:50:35 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:50:35 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? In-Reply-To: <06f301c66f96$57809560$f345133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Jimm, The speakers routinely described the tailed-c as being either /s/ or /z/ in the F&LaF system. Grandma Elizabeth probably ignored the Omaha spelling, looked at the English gloss (or context of the word), and rendered the appropriate sound. So, tailed-ci could be 'zi' yellow, or 'si' foot. Not very useful for students who don't know the underlying possibilities. One particular example had stumped us for many years -- a female personal name that appears in several Omaha clans. noN tailed-ce iN tailed-ce noNseiNse? noNseiNze? noNzeiNse? noNzeiNze? None of my speakers could recall anyone with the name as a model for pronunciation. An Omaha tribal member who transferred to UNL last fall and got into our Omaha language class recognized it as belonging to one of his elder female relatives. It turns out the the fourth rendereing was it. Who could have known based upon the 2-sound possibilities for the tailed-c. washkoN-ga-ho! Uthixide Omaha Nation Public School and UNL have routinely been changing the tailed-c to the appropriate /z/ or /s/. Perhaps others on the List can address the /th/ question. Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/04/2006 11:15 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To "siouan at lists.colorado.ed" cc Subject WHICH IS IT? In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." Which way is it? Are they both correct? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri May 5 14:19:13 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:19:13 -0500 Subject: WHICH IS IT? Message-ID: Just put the tip of your tongue against the back of your lower teeth (the teeth in your jaw bone) and try to make an S sound. What do you hear? ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 5/4/2006 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: Re: WHICH IS IT? On Thu, 4 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > In LaFleche's Osage Dicionary and Mark S's Omaha Lexicon, both use Dorsey "c" with a cedilla. > LaFleche's phonetic key has reads: "C (+ cedilla) as in thin" > Mark's pronunciation guide has: "C (+ cedilla) sounds like s in the word say." > > Which way is it? Are they both correct? About the first thing I remember learning about c-cedilla in Osage is that nobody but LaFlesche heard it as theta. But LaFlesche uses c-cedilla for s and z in both Osage and Omaha(-Ponca) and clearly describes it as sounding like theta. When I was reading through the Dorsey files at the NAA c. 1985 I happened, quite by accident, on a note by Dorsey to the effect that s is pronounced s, except that some Omahas pronounce it as th(eta), among them Frank LaFlesche. It might have been on the first slip of the s's in Dorsey's slip file. After that I noticed that Alice Fletcher, whose fairly attrocious Omaha transcriptions are usually deservedly ignored, often wrote s as th, e.g., in transcribing the names attached to the houses in her map of the Village of Make-Believe Whitemen, i.e., Francis LaFlesche's home town, and the point of origin of many of the Omahas that Fletcher (and Dorsey) worked on. I don't remember an s-example at the moment, though, perversely, I do remember "Brontee" or bdhaN-thi 'odor arrives'. Though this might be rendered 'smelly' it probably refers to the scent of an animal reaching a character in a clan myth. My guess is that s was theta (and z was edh) in the dialect of the residents of the Village of Make Believe White Men. Perhaps it was Otoe influence? It wouldn't need to be, of course, but LaFlesche's mother was an Otoe, and the stories from the VOMBW residents talk a lot about interactions with the Otoes. The final piece in the puzzle is that the pronunciation key for the LaFlesche Osage Dictionary is essentially the same one he used for Omaha work, as is the transcription itself. Since the book was published postumously, without his help in the final stages, it's just possible he might have meant to revise the key to indicate that c-cedilla was pronounced like s in Osage, along with other similar comments. He may not even have written the key as such in this instance. It's the kind of thing that might have been left to the final editing. Incidentally, c-cedilla is the standard BAE character for theta. Dorsey uses it in transribing Ioway-Otoe theta. He turns it over to produce a "sonant" version - z or a muted s. Dorsey says somewhere in his notes that he prefers the inverted letters, but he wrote them in ms. with a little x under the regular letter. It appears that Francis LaFlesche, whether on his own or in response to a change in BAE policy, converted the little x into a dot. Or maybe it's just a coincidence? In any event, he uses under-dotted ptk for Dorsey's turned orinverted ptk, written ptk with a little x under them in the Dorsey mms. (And Buechel uses dots to indicate "lack of aspiration" in Lakota, too, I notice.) I sometimes wonder if Francis LaFlesche meant to put a little x or dot under c-cedilla standing for z, but decided that it got in the way of the tail of the cedilla. He definitely used the dots with ptk in Omaha. They are there in his ms. list of Omaha names of rivers, though they are missing throughout Fletcher & LaFlesche, including in this list. Although Dorsey and Fletcher both support theta, it's possible that the theta was simply a very dental s as Bob suggests. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Sat May 6 18:01:07 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:01:07 -0700 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <317.412c35a.318bbd39@aol.com> Message-ID: Randy, > There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). > This seems to be the same prefix used in Biloxi: o-, as in ok(i)taho = to knock down by shooting, which seems to be a compound of o- (by shooting) + k(i)the (hit) + taho (fall). For whatever that's worth. Dave Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: This is a late contribution to the 'wound' discussion. I'm behind on my e-mail. uu' 'shoot, hit target' (uua' is the citation form) 1 b-uu', 2 d-uu', 3 uu', 1pl b-uu'-o 2pl d-uu'-o 3 uu'-o (regular inflection) Lowie: ma u'-om = baa-uu'-o-m baa 'indefinite object'; m 'different subject' akbareacu'packyo hawa'tem ba wu'k 'one of the Cheyenne (headcutters) I shot': The last word is clearly buu'k 'I shot'. The ba is a puzzle, since the sentence has a lexical object and I wouldn't expect an indefinite here. One remote possibility: uu' is (or was) a doubly-inflecting verb. u'ak: This is uu'-ak; ak is the same subject marker. oo'xpi 'wound, shoot at and hit' (citation form oo'xpe) 1 b-oo'xpi 2 d-oox'pi 3 oo'xpi etc. This is the regular inflection for vowel-initial verbs not accented on the first mora. It could be that oo- is a locative prefix, although these are regularly accented on the initial vowel in Crow: a', i', o'. There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). Randy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 7 15:14:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:14:57 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. CR *?V > *V? > V (glottal disappears or is vocalized) HI *?V > *V? MA *?V > *V? BI *?V > *hV (word initial) TU maybe the same as BI but relying on only one "Saponi" transcription? > There are several other 'shooting' verbs in Crow with initial oo: oo'xeechi 'pierce through by shooting', o'oxexawi 'shot up' (stative), and oo'xaxxi 'shoot an arrow or bullet into a hole'. I have wondered if these aren't reflexes of the Siouan 'by shooting' instrumental prefix, with the initial consonant lost (Da wo, Wi bo Po mu). > I've reconstructed the outer instrumentals from older incorporations of verbs nominalized by wa-. There are still some interesting irregularities to be ironed out, but this tends to account for accent, length and most of the segmental phenomena in these instrumentals. I seem to recall that Dakotan confuses the "na-" instrumentals and switches them around a bit, but everyone else seems to fall into line. For those using "legacy" email readers, there are some accented vowels in the chart below. I did these reconstructions several years ago and haven't gotten back to clean them up, but I suppose I stick by them for now. Anyone who can fill in blanks or make corrections, please feel free to do so. Outer instrumentals: by shooting by cutting by temperature PSi *wa??o- *wahaa aR?a- CR oo- aa- al?- HI ha- ar?- MA w?- r?- LA wo- wa- na- DA bo- ba- na- CH boo- ba- d?a- WI boo- maaN- taa- OP m?- m?- na- KS b?- b?- d?a- OS p?- p?- t?a- QU p?- p?- t?a- BI ad?- OF ata- TU ala~na- Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sun May 7 18:55:10 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:55:10 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2006 9:16:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. The 'inside' locative prefix certainly fits the semantics of these 'shooting' verbs. And the movement of [?] to the syllable coda would account for the long, high pitch in the Crow forms. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 7 21:40:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:40:52 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. Bob ________________________________ > In a message dated 5/7/2006 9:16:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. > The 'inside' locative prefix certainly fits the semantics of these 'shooting' verbs. And the movement of [?] to the syllable coda would account for the long, high pitch in the Crow forms. > Randy From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 8 00:16:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 18:16:00 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: > *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics > of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to > me. One thing that's being left out of this is that Crow has a theme vowel with the 'wound' stem, so the verb is actually something like uua' in citation form, though the reduced stem uu' occurs in more contexts. Conceivably the -a is a support for a final ?. Hidatsa has u? ~ u?u. Since the CSD citation fails to mention the Crow theme vowel, I suppose it's possible that the Hidatsa form may omit something like that, too? On the other hand, I don't think I've ever had the impression that Hidatsa had anything like that in its morphology and I believe that pluralization is a bit different in Hidatsa. GH Matthews just has u to wound' and shows plurals of first and second persons (but not third) with added -ha. I seem to remember something like a?a in Wes Jones' description. Actually, I think the Crow theme vowels like this occur with all final ii and uu stems, but not those in ee and oo, and not with short vowel-final stems (discounting those that end in ua and ia in both stem and citation form). Most stems have citation forms that involve no change at all (ee, oo), lowering of the final vowel, e.g., from u to o, or i to e, or substituting e for a. Citation forms are used to answer the question "what is the word for X?" They are also the base used with -sh 'definite article', -m, 'indefinite, non-specific article', -n 'locative', -taa 'path', and -ta 'seem, resemble'. These last are also cases where -a to -e or extra -a- occurs in Mississippi Valley, which is one reason I am unwilling to simply discard the phenomenon here, writing it off as a Crow oddity. For example, Teton a=>e ablaut before -la 'diminutive', laka 'consider as' (for 'seem, resemble'), or Teton thiyata 'to/at the dwelling', mniyata 'at the water, or Omaha-Ponca ttiadi 'in(to) the dwelling', ttiatta '(up) to the dwelling', not to mention the OP animate articles a-kha (singular) and a-ma (plural). I don't know what typical examples, of -uu and -ii stems in Crow are, other than Randy's example of uu' 'wound', awuu' 'inside', kuluu' 'piled up', aashu'u 'his head', and pa'apii 'stir', and bi'tchii 'knife' From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 8 01:08:36 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:08:36 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I wonder if we might be mixing ?oo 'shoot and hit' with o- 'into, > within'?? It makes sense that this verb might well use the 'inside' > locative prefix. And if it often does, then the glottal stop would give > the appearance of moving to the right (as it does in Crow, Hidatsa and > Mandan anyway). So if we find something like o?o, it probably involves > the instrumental, not movement of [?] to a syllable coda. But, against that, we only find the medial glottal u? ~ u?u in Hidatsa and the final glottal in (Hidatsa and) Mandan u?. Croww just has uu' ~ uua', though that implies ? per the reasoning you and Randy have put forth. And nowhere do we find a trace of the distinctive patterns of inflection with locatives that we find in Crow-Hidatsa (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) or Mississippi Valley (with standard CV-form pronouns in LOC-PRO-STEM). > Movement only occurs in the North, where it seems to be an areal > feature. IF we assume that [?] was part of the onset (an assumption > that may not be entirely justified), then it remains as part of the > onset in OVS and MVS but moves to the coda in MA, CR, HI. > > CR *?V > *V? > VV'(a) [revised per later comment] > HI *?V > V? ~ V?V [per CSD, but no idea what distribution is] > MA *?V > *V? [? appears when -e is added, etc.] > > BI *?V > *hV (word initial) > TU maybe the same as BI but relying on only one "Saponi" transcription? > I've reconstructed the outer instrumentals from older incorporations of > verbs nominalized by wa-. I'm afraid I'm still using a legacy mailer. I'm having problems with accented vowels when not on my home system, and I'm also having problems with telling who's saying what. I suspect people are falling back on different fonts or colors again. My apologies. I think I must be the only person having problems with this! > Outer instrumentals: > > by shooting by cutting by temperature > PSi *wa?o'o- *wahaa *aRa'a- PS(JEK) *w-?o'- *w-?a'- *w-ra'- > CR oo- aa- ala'- > HI ha- ara'- > MA wa'- ra'- PMV *Woo'- *Waa'- *Raa'- > LA wo- wa- na- > DA bo- ba- na- > > CH boo- ba- da'a- > WI boo- maNaN- taa- > > OP mu(u)'- ma(a)'- na(a)'- > KS bo'- ba'- da'a- > OS po'- pa'- ta'a- > QU po'- pa'- ta'a- > > BI oo'- (fide Kaufman) ada'-- > OF ata- > TU ala~na- I changed OP o to u. I think muu- and maa- are probably long, as well as naa-. Since there are cases where falling and level accents occur I think I might prefer VV' for level and V'V for falling. For example, I thin it would be (in OP), for mu(u)=se 'tosever with a shot': A1 mu(u)'=ase [mwa'ase] A2 muu'=dhase A3 muu'=sa(=i) Or, for a(a)'gdhiN 'to sit on' A1 a(a)'agdhiN A2 a'dhagdhiN A3 aa'gdhiN(=i) In the first persons I'm writing (V) where I'm not sure how to handle the situation orthographically. There I doubt we have a tripple long vowel senquence, but we have the consequences of combining VV' with V. Elsewhere I'm writing (V) to indicate probable length. Coming back to the PMV row I inserted, PS(JEK) *w-?o'- *w-?a'- *w-ra'- I notice that *W accounts more or less for the faintly possible first persons of *?oo 'wound' based on Teton A1 hibu for A3 hiyu and on the Crow inflection (can't tell from *w- and *r-). The 'shoot' and 'cut' instrumenhtals show the *W set in MVS. Maybe PS *w?- > PMV *W and PS *w-r- > PMV *pr ~ *R. The 'heat, spontaneous' set in *w-ra'- might be more complex, given the a- intials in CH and SE. As far as length and accentuation, I think these forms are long or show the accentual consequences of it (initial accent) in MV, but I've also noticed that the first persons of *r-stems are accented like this: A1 *p- rV(V)'... A2 *s^-rV(V)'... A3 rV...' in MVS, per the behavior of OP and Winnebago: OP Wi A1 b -dhV(V)'... dVV...' A2 s^-nV(V)'... s^V-rVV...' A3 dhV...' rV...' So a contracted CV => C syllable in the prefixal morphology seems to count as a mora in itself. (Incidentally, Jimm, thanks for starting a very interesting discussion, all around!) From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 8 14:19:09 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:19:09 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: > But, against that, we only find the medial glottal u? ~ u?u in Hidatsa and the final glottal in (Hidatsa and) Mandan u?. Croww just has uu' ~ uua', though that implies ? per the reasoning you and Randy have put forth. And nowhere do we find a trace of the distinctive patterns of inflection with locatives that we find in Crow-Hidatsa (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) or Mississippi Valley (with standard CV-form pronouns in LOC-PRO-STEM). Actually, Ofo has just that pattern (with VC-form pronouns in PRO-LOC-STEM) with its regular pronominals. But with reflexes of the old irregular (consonantal) pronominals the locatives always precede the prns. Crow and Hidatsa generally lack that conservative pronominal morphology that would allow us to check for older patterns. We're gonna have to get John a decent unicode-compliant email reader. The spam filters are good enough now that one needn't worry about being overwhelmed. The new one here at KU gets all the spam and very little else. Bob From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon May 8 17:24:56 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:24:56 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2006 3:47:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. I have found about a dozen stems where the Hidatsa has V'?V, and the Crow has VV', e.g., Hi kure?e Cr kulee' 'keep'. There are others, however, where Crow preserves the accentual pattern of the Hidatsa while losing the glottal: Hi ate'?e Cr asi'i 'appear', so the data is mixed. In general, accentual patterns in Crow and Hidatsa cognates are often unpredictible. We have a lot to learn in this area. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Mon May 8 17:34:20 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:34:20 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: I have tended to interpret the Crow citation forms as a mostly phonological innovation, since Hidatsa seems to lack them. Crow seems to have decided that it doesn't like words that end in i(i), u(u) or aa. There are exceptions, however, since vocatives (always) and adverbs (mostly) do not use the citation form. However, the fact that there are several suffixes that follow the citation form rather than the stem, as John notes, leads one to wonder if there isn't a deeper historical explanation. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 8 18:07:59 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:07:59 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Yep, the relationship between accent, pitch, laryngeal and segmental features is a wide-open area in Siouan phonology. I did a paper for one of the Mid America MALC volumes several years back in which I related V?V sequences (where the Vs are identical) to phonemic falling pitch, with examples from Ponca, Quapaw, Biloxi and a few from Hidatsa. The Ponca cases provided very nice recorded examples in which the falling pitch "bottomed out" in the middle of a long or geminate vowel resulting in either [creaky voice] or [?] generated between the two halves of the VV sequence. This often resulted in a "broken vowel", as SE Asianists like to call them. So an earlier falling pitch (high pitch on the 1st mora) might be something to look at in phonetic [V?V] sequences. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Mon 5/8/2006 12:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: "WOUND" In a message dated 5/7/2006 3:47:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: That's interesting. So the Crow rule(s) should actually be: *?V > *V? > VV' with the usual pitch-raising phonetic characteristics of [?] showing up in place of the [?] itself. Makes perfect sense to me. I have found about a dozen stems where the Hidatsa has V'?V, and the Crow has VV', e.g., Hi kure?e Cr kulee' 'keep'. There are others, however, where Crow preserves the accentual pattern of the Hidatsa while losing the glottal: Hi ate'?e Cr asi'i 'appear', so the data is mixed. In general, accentual patterns in Crow and Hidatsa cognates are often unpredictible. We have a lot to learn in this area. Randy From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon May 8 20:09:09 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:09:09 -0500 Subject: Dakotan T-words and their equivalents in Siouan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > > a'qtaN How possible? > > I'm thinking that the reading for this one is more like "how on earth" than "how can," but I'd be very interested to heat the contemporary take on this! I think the morphosyntax is a=xt(i)=aN, with aN being the aN that appears more below. Yes, I think we're trying to represent the same idea in English. This seems to be a rhetorical question word expressing astonished skepticism about a previously mentioned idea. It is usually found in combination with the potential marker after the concept. I had some trouble at first getting our speakers to recognize it, but the elder one finally did in a sentence that I think she partially volunteered: A'qtaN at?e' tte ? How is it that I should die? expressed, perhaps, by an older person accused by their doctor of being about ready to drop into their grave. "I'm too tough to die!" > Is there a variant eaxtaN, or am I crossing this up with something else? If there is, I haven't run across it yet. > > e?aN'-qti what great (person)? [023:12] > > In effect "who on earth"? Or perhaps: "Who the heck do you think you are?" This is Rabbit's response to the giant after the latter's first sally of verbal abuse. >> E'be who? > > See if you can find a consistent difference between e'be and ebe'. Dorsey suggests there is one. This could be right or wrong. I asked our younger speaker about this. She thought for a moment and answered that she didn't think ebe was ever accented on the first syllable: ebe', never e'be. The word I pulled from Dorsey was marked as e'be. > I gather than no one hears a difference between these today? I think that there is one in the texts, along the lines of indefinite (no particular answer imagined) vs. definite (some particular set of answers imagined, i.e., more like which). No, our speakers recognize the difference. We (Mark and I) have had a little trouble with the semantics, but I think your explanation comes close to the mark. Our younger speaker has tried to explain the difference to us a couple of times, and she keeps coming back to the idea that eda'daN is more exact or specific than iNda'daN. > [...] except that there are those aNwa or awaN forms meaning 'other'. (In which w is often m.) There is an aN'ma, 'other', which seems to be rather rarely used. I'm not familiar with an aNwa variant. > > atHaN'-qti whenever; when (I next touch ground ...) > > Hmm. I wonder if this is atH(e) + aN=xti 'when on earth', by analogy with (e)axtaN 'how on earth' and eaNxti 'who on earth'. Perhaps etymologically, but I'm pretty sure that atHoN' is a question word in its own right both today and in the 19th century. In Dorsey it seems to be used to ask about time, i.e., the word for 'when'. For asking about what time it is today, the answer seems to be mi'daNbe a'naN ?, "How many hours?", or mi'daNbe atHoN' (a)?, "Hourwise, how long?" Our younger speaker told me that atHoN' by itself, unqualified by mi'daNbe, means "How long", e.g., for the length of a board. (I've checked and confirmed that the t is aspirated.) > [...] For 'why' it's (e)attaN. (I've nver been quite sure if it was =ttaN or tHaN here.) It's =ttaN. I checked with the speakers on this, and it is definitely tense. Also, they deny that attaN can ever be used alone; it must be ea'ttaN. The plain attaN version is from Dorsey. > Since the inspiration came to me that -e in various contexts is a "cleft" or "focus" marker, I've tended to see the intial e-'s in question forms in that light, but fused proclitically to the following element rather than enclitically to the preceding. I've generally understood the initial e- in forms like edi, egaN, etc. to be a generic 3rd person pronoun that is used to wrap up the preceding complex noun phrase into a singularity that can then be dealt with grammatically in a standard way. It would be about like certain dialects of English that allow: The guy that was here to paint the house and got Mom's cat out of the tree, he got into an accident on the way home. with e- in Omaha used like he in the above English sentence. Is this what you mean by a "cleft" or "focus marker"? Rory From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue May 9 01:38:25 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 20:38:25 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: Yes, John, indeed I was looking for what may be an appropriate entry to be included in my revised IOM dictionary. And as you suggest below, an anology may be the best possible, in the light of little solid evidence from the related languages. So I have received an answer from the unforeseen in-depth discussion that I could not have imagine being generated by one small term that has only been rendered in the 3PP texts of a handfull of IOM statements. Thanks again, to Bob and everyone contribution, and excuse me for tying up the List for so long. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:22 PM Subject: RE: "WOUND" > On Wed, 3 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Our question about this verb had to do with the conservative pronominal >> prefixes that commonly occur with stems beginning with */?/. ... >> Languages that have reflexes of regular *wa+?uN, *ra+?uN are not >> germaine to the discussion. > > Well, not germane to that aspect of the discussion, but I think Jimm's > primary concern is actually just what the inflection of the verb o(o) > 'wound' was in IO, in the absence of attestation, and in that case the > patterns in IO for uN(uN) are relevant, as are, perhaps, the ones in > Winnebago. I think Jimm knows that this verb is one of the awkward ones, > though, and he's looking for anything to shed light on the problem. > > I think it's likely that the verb was A1 *ha?oo, A2 *ra?oo, A3 oo, maybe > A12 *hiN?oo, and that at some point before that (maybe most recently in > proto-Chiwere-Winnebago) it must have been something like A1 *ha?oo, A2 > s^?oo or *s^oo, A3 *oo, A12 *hiN?oo, to judge from the attested Winnebago > forms. For that matter, I could imagine more complex possibilities like a > second person *ras^?oo. The actual forms must have varied across time, > and, given the number of different groups speaking IO c. 1800, they may > well have been different in space, too. But for Jimm I think the question > is less one of the reconstructive possibilities at given points, than a > philological problem of what he is justified in putting in his dictionary > and and an applied one of what he could suggest that would be speakers > use. > > Philologically he can't put anything, I think, except A1 unknown, etc. > But in an applied sense he might want to recommend something by analogy > with uN or the regular paradigm, and I think the two are close enough to > suggest a working answer. However the applied use reader would want to > know that in this case the form is a guess, and, of course, a historical > linguist would very much want to know what was attested and what was > guesswork. > From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Tue May 9 07:33:52 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:33:52 +0200 Subject: 2006 SCLC In-Reply-To: <304.38b141d.31894715@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy, my name is Johannes Helmbrecht, and currently I am assistant professor at the linguistic department of the University of Erfurt, Germany. One of my main research areas is the Hocank (Winnebago) language. This year, I plan to attend the Siouan and cadoan Linguistics Conference and in particular the Workshop on Comparative Siouan Grammar. I will present a paper on this workshop with the title "Applicatives in Siouan languages", but not on the SCLC. I need some help with regard to the organization of my trip to Billings,MT. First of all, I need an accomodation for the time, I will be in Billings and I would like to ask you to make a reservation in the Rimview Hall you mentioned in your mail. Could you arrange this? I arrive in Billings on Thursday, June 15 at 10:22pm in the night and I will leave on Wednesday June, 21 in the afternoon after the Comparative Siouan Grammar Workshop. Secondly, since I will arrive pretty late on Thursday, I would like to ask you if it is possible to get picked up from the airport on Thursday night? A third question. I collect data on applicatives (corresponding to Hocank a-, o-, i-, and gi- REC/DAT applicative) in Siouan languages. Do you have more up to date information on these grammatical forms in Hidatsa/ Crow than Matthews (1965) and Lowie (1941)? Best, Johannes Rgraczyk at aol.com schrieb: > 26TH ANNUAL SIOUAN AND CADDOAN > LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS CONFERENCE > > Friday, June 16 - Sunday June 18, 2006 > > LOCATION: Rocky Mountain College, Billings, Montana > > ABSTRACT/TITLE DEADLINE: June 9, 2006. If you wish to be on the > program, please send the title of your proposed paper or presentation > to rgraczyk at aol.com by email or as an email > attachment. Mailing address for those who wish: /Randolph Graczyk, PO > Box 29, Pryor, MT 59066./ A brief abstract or description of your > topic would also be appreciated. > > The format for the annual Siouan and Caddoan Conference has > traditionally been quite informal and open. Language-related topics > ranging from very technical linguistics to methods and problems > encountered in teaching Siouan and Caddoan languages, language > preservation and revitalization, etc., are all welcome. Presentations > may be formal and read aloud or they may be open discussions of > particular problems and topics. Time slots for presentations will be > 30 minutes unless more or less time is specifically requested by the > presenter (we will try to accomodate everyone's requests). It is > anticipated that there will be participation from members of the > Crow Nation and others involved in language teaching and > revitalization efforts. > > Any special requests for equipment such as projector, tape recorder, > computer, etc., should be directed to Randy Graczyk as soon as possible. > > There will be a nominal registration fee of $10 for participants ($5 > for students) to cover the costs of coffee-break refreshments. > > The conference will be held at Rocky Mountain College, a small private > college (about 900 students) located in Billings, Montana. Lodging > will be available on campus at Rimview Hall, which is an > apartment-style facility with units of four bedrooms with a common > kitchenette and living area. The cost will be $24 per night. If you > are planning to stay at the college, please let Randy know as soon as > possible; the college will need a number beforehand. Campus > recreation facilities (swimming pool, gym, exercise equipment, etc.) > will be available for a fee of $6.50 to $10.00 for the time of the > conference, depending on which facilities you wish to utilize. Food > service will also be available on campus. > > Billings is served by several major airlines; if you need a pick-up at > the airport, please contact Randy. There are also numerous motels in > Billings; check your favorite travel websites for information. > > Please let us know if you plan to attend the conference, even if you > are not planning to give a talk, so that we will know how many people > to expect. -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universit?t Erfurt - Philosophische Fakult?t Seminar f?r Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Tue May 9 07:52:06 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:52:06 +0200 Subject: my apologies for the last mail Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I am very sorry, the last mail was meant to reach Randy personally and not to be distributetd to the list. Johannes -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universit?t Erfurt - Philosophische Fakult?t Seminar f?r Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 9 14:40:45 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:40:45 -0500 Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: > and excuse me for tying up the List for so long. Heck, don't apologize. This is how we all learn stuff. It's what the list is for. bob From Aspriska at aol.com Tue May 9 15:24:40 2006 From: Aspriska at aol.com (Aspriska at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:24:40 EDT Subject: tonal phenomena in the Siouan languages Message-ID: Hello everybody! My name is Anthony (Tony) Kent. Although I have had both the pleasure and benefit of having corresponded with several of you in the past, I felt the time was finally appropriate to address you all. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend the upcoming conference in June, so this seems to be the best option. I am an American who has been living and working in Europe for the past 20 years or so. (I'm a professional musician: singer, pianist, conductor, teacher). Last year I completed my masters in phonetics at the University of Hamburg, where I am now beginning my doctoral research. The topic of my dissertation is "Tonal Phenomena in the Siouan Languages". Before dealing with actual phenomena observed in Siouan languages, I will first be presenting and comparing data on numerous tone and pitch accent languages. I hope that this will then shed a better light on just how to interpret what has been (or remains to be) found in Siouan. I would greatly appreciate any assistance, advice, or suggestions anyone may wish to offer. I am particularly keen on any tips regarding any of the Siouan languages, but comments or evidence regarding other tonal languages or pitch accent languages - especially those native to North America - would equally be most welcome. I wish you all a great conference and many thanks in advance for your time and help! Tony Kent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 10 20:59:51 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:59:51 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 10 20:57:29 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:57:29 -0500 Subject: Today's Lincoln, NE paper. Message-ID: There's a nice article in today's Lincoln, NE newspaper on the Omaha language project. http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2004/08/25/local/10054255.txt Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu May 4 13:40:28 2006 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:40:28 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <4459FCC4.12215.4B4C81@localhost> Message-ID: Quoting Heike B?deker : > Dear Willem, > >> Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the >> environment of [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as >> pronounced by Buffy Sainte Marie) > > Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the > Plains and Montagnais varieties I came to hear. Dear Heike: According to the biography below, she was born on the Qu'Appelle Cree reserve in Saskatchewan. http://www.creative-native.com/biograp.htm Our Algonquianist friends can surely tell us what the Cree dialect must be on that reserve. My contact with Cree is as limited as one can imagine: I heard Buffy count on the mike before a performance on TV! Her pronunciation of the [k] in peyak struck me. I have done a fair amount of fieldwork on Lakota, but can only remember this one Oglala friend with the [k] in kaka that struck me. So it could all be coincidence and idiosyncratic pronunciations. Best regards, Willem From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Wed May 10 22:24:12 2006 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:24:12 -0700 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy Bob, I was not at the Conference. However I did some research for you. Based on a Nebraska Humanities Speakers Index I found online at the following URL... ( http://www.nebraskahumanities.org/speakersindex.html ) ...I'm guessing that the person you are referring to might be: David Lee Smith Director of Indian Studies Little Priest Tribal College Winnebago, Nebraska Winnebago Traditional Stories for Contemporary Times 402-878-2976 (H) 402-878-2380 (W) timsmith at huntel.net Hope this helps some, Jonathan "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed May 10 23:18:04 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:18:04 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <20060504084028.kg4foa2ul6xkcsww@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains Cree. I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. Dave > >> Dear Willem, >> >>> Sometimes [k] sounds very postvelar, like IPA [q], in the environment of >>> [a]. Compare Cree peyak [peyaq] 'one' (at least as pronounced by Buffy >>> Sainte Marie) >>> >> Where is she from? Frankly I can't remember that, at least for the Plains and >> Montagnais varieties I came to hear. >> > Dear Heike: > > According to the biography below, she was born on the Qu'Appelle Cree reserve > in Saskatchewan. > > http://www.creative-native.com/biograp.htm > > Our Algonquianist friends can surely tell us what the Cree dialect must be on > that reserve. > > My contact with Cree is as limited as one can imagine: I heard Buffy count on > the mike before a performance on TV! Her pronunciation of the [k] in peyak > struck me. I have done a fair amount of fieldwork on Lakota, but can only > remember this one Oglala friend with the [k] in kaka that struck me. So it > could all be coincidence and idiosyncratic pronunciations. > > Best regards, > > Willem > > From shanwest at shaw.ca Thu May 11 01:32:19 2006 From: shanwest at shaw.ca (Shannon West) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:32:19 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yup, Qu'Appelle is definitely Plains Cree. I grew up very close to it. Shannon At 04:18 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote: >I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains >Cree. > >I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. > >Dave From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu May 11 12:48:02 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:48:02 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are referring to Andy Thundercloud Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. I do not know of his current status. I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. 402-878-2380 P.O.Box 270 Winnebago, NE 68071 Regards, Mark Awakuni-Swetland UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/10/2006 03:59 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Need help with name. Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de Thu May 11 13:14:32 2006 From: johannes.helmbrecht at Uni-Erfurt.de (Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:14:32 +0200 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, if you are looking for Andy Thundercloud - he moved recently to Wisconsin and works at the Hocank Wazija Haci Language Division in Mauston,WI. I met him there several times this spring. If you call up the people there, you will have a chance to get him on the phone. The phone number is: 608-847-5694 or 800-492-5745. Best, Johannes Mark J Awakuni-Swetland schrieb: > > You are referring to Andy Thundercloud > Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in > Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for > awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on > the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed > zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested > his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization > effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. > > I do not know of his current status. > > I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. > 402-878-2380 > P.O.Box 270 > Winnebago, NE 68071 > > Regards, > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > UmoNhoN ie thethudi > Omaha Language Spoken Here > > > *"Rankin, Robert L" * > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 05/10/2006 03:59 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > > To > > cc > > Subject > Need help with name. > > > > > > > > > > Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from > the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan > Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but > I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed > program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest > College or in the school system there. > > Bob > -- PD Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Universit?t Erfurt - Philosophische Fakult?t Seminar f?r Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 90 02 21 D-99105 Erfurt, Deutschland Tel. 0361/ 737-4202 Fax 0361/ 737-4209 johannes.helmbrecht at uni-erfurt.de http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/index.htm From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 14:08:32 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:08:32 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: The backed pronunciation of K seems to be fairly common. Even in the SE I noticed it frequently among speakers of Muskogee Creek. And the Micmac spell their name Miqmaq nowadays, don't they? I assume this may represent a uvularized pronunciation. I haven't heard it among Siouan speakers that I recall though. Bob > I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains Cree. > I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 14:29:25 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:29:25 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project the tribe is undertaking. Knowing that the man who talked at the conference had been a medic AND was interested in the language, I wanted to make sure the KU guy looked him up. I could remember just about everything he said except his name -- a common failing I have, and age hasn't helped. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thu 5/11/2006 7:48 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Need help with name. You are referring to Andy Thundercloud Wisconsin Winnebago relocated to Nebraska. He served as a medic in Vietnam and got into the health field at Winnebago, NE. He left for awhile... at a time where there were many Winnebago-speaking elders on the street. When he returned to visit a few years ago he noticed zero-to-none surviving speakers in Winnebago. The Council requested his assistance at spearheading a massive language revitalization effort spanning preschool through Tribal College. I do not know of his current status. I would suggest calling Little Priest Tribal College and inquiring. 402-878-2380 P.O.Box 270 Winnebago, NE 68071 Regards, Mark Awakuni-Swetland UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 05/10/2006 03:59 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Need help with name. Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little Priest College or in the school system there. Bob From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu May 11 14:49:30 2006 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:49:30 -0700 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, in Micmac spelling, 'q' is used for the straight velar fricative [x], which is often voiced. Dave > The backed pronunciation of K seems to be fairly common. Even in the SE I > noticed it frequently among speakers of Muskogee Creek. > > And the Micmac spell their name Miqmaq nowadays, don't they? I assume this > may represent a uvularized pronunciation. > > I haven't heard it among Siouan speakers that I recall though. > > Bob > >> I'm no Cree expert, but I'm about 99% sure the Qu'Appelle Reserve is Plains >> Cree. >> I don't know about /k/ having an allophone of [q]. > > From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 11 15:04:15 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:04:15 -0500 Subject: 2006 SCLC: Announcement and Call for Papers Message-ID: Back to the future! Sounds like John Wesley Powell's idea of [x]. ________________________________ > Actually, in Micmac spelling, 'q' is used for the straight velar fricative [x], which is often voiced. From rlundy at huntel.net Thu May 11 20:34:43 2006 From: rlundy at huntel.net (rlundy at huntel.net) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:34:43 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: Might be Andy Flying Cloud... ---- Original Message ---- From: rankin at ku.edu To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Need help with name. Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:59:51 -0500 >Can someone on the list remind me of the name of the gentleman from >the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska who gave the talk at the 2004 Siouan >Conference at Wayne State College? I was impressed with the talk, >but I'm terrible with names, and his name doesn't appear on the >printed program that I have. I can't recall if he taught at Little >Priest College or in the school system there. > >Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 15:54:50 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:54:50 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: <402.1793d27.3190db1c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > However, the fact that there are several suffixes that follow the > citation form rather than the stem, as John notes, leads one to wonder > if there isn't a deeper historical explanation. The Crow theme vowel-citation forms do have a very "automatic" feel to them, and since, as Randy mentioned, they are missing in Hidatsa, it is unclear, within Crow-Hidatsa, whether Crow or Hidatsa innovates. But, not only are the theme vowel forms before suffixes suggestive within Crow, but the suffixes in question seem to be cognate with suffixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan that have the same behavior. So, I think we can assume that Hidatsa is the innovator, not Crow. This whole area, however, is one that involves either a small group of irregular relicts (as in Dakotan and in some Omaha-Ponca cases) or a rather generalized, automatic situation (as in Crow or Omaha-Ponca), so no doubt there is some work to be done with it. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 15:57:38 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:57:38 -0600 Subject: "WOUND" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > The Ponca cases provided very nice recorded examples in which the > falling pitch "bottomed out" in the middle of a long or geminate vowel > resulting in either [creaky voice] or [?] generated between the two > halves of the VV sequence. This often resulted in a "broken vowel", as > SE Asianists like to call them. So an earlier falling pitch (high pitch > on the 1st mora) might be something to look at in phonetic [V?V] > sequences. Kathy Shea suggested to me that this "stod" behavior might be one diagnostic (in slow speech) for long vowels in OP. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 16:10:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:10:11 -0600 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the > Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project > the tribe is undertaking. I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? I think this is one of the two or three in his series of Wisconsin ethnobotanies that were left unpublished when he and his family were killed at a railroad crossing during a weekend drive. One of the others was Iroquian, though I've forgotten which. From ahartley at d.umn.edu Fri May 12 16:18:30 2006 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago > ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? See Bob Rankin's comments: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9901&L=siouan&D=1&P=542 Alan From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 12 18:17:42 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:17:42 -0600 Subject: Need help with name. In-Reply-To: <4464B556.2030107@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Alan H. Hartley wrote: > > I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago > > ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? > > See Bob Rankin's comments: > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9901&L=siouan&D=1&P=542 Touche! How many times have I recommended searching the archives to someone! From rankin at ku.edu Fri May 12 19:05:11 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:05:11 -0500 Subject: Need help with name. Message-ID: This particular biologist, Kelly Kindscher, reelicited the H.K. Smith ethnobotany in cooperation with Kenny Funmaker's language program in Mauston several years ago and later published it in a botanical journal. I had passed along a copy of the Smith MS to him. This is a journal that requires abstracts in a second language, and in this case that language is Hocank -- probably a unique event! The Nebraska tribe now wants him to help them obtain a better, and active knowledge and understanding of their tradition and he's agreed to help them. He's the author of books on medicinal and food plants of the Prairie. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Fri 5/12/2006 11:10 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Need help with name. On Thu, 11 May 2006, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Thanks for the help, guys. One of the KU profs has been asked by the > Nebraska Winnebagos to help them with a medicinal ethnobotany project > the tribe is undertaking. I wonder if they are aware of the Huron K. Smith ms. on Winnebago ethnobotany in the Milwaukee Museum? I think this is one of the two or three in his series of Wisconsin ethnobotanies that were left unpublished when he and his family were killed at a railroad crossing during a weekend drive. One of the others was Iroquian, though I've forgotten which. From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri May 12 22:51:37 2006 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:51:37 -0600 Subject: Koontz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So many gifts, so little time! Thanks for your emails. Currently recovering from a back operation. I am enjoying hearing what you know and can compare with the various Siouan groups. Billy From Rgraczyk at aol.com Sat May 13 17:23:17 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 13:23:17 EDT Subject: "WOUND" Message-ID: In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:02:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: The Crow theme vowel-citation forms do have a very "automatic" feel to them, and since, as Randy mentioned, they are missing in Hidatsa, it is unclear, within Crow-Hidatsa, whether Crow or Hidatsa innovates. But, not only are the theme vowel forms before suffixes suggestive within Crow, but the suffixes in question seem to be cognate with suffixes in Mississippi Valley Siouan that have the same behavior. So, I think we can assume that Hidatsa is the innovator, not Crow. This whole area, however, is one that involves either a small group of irregular relicts (as in Dakotan and in some Omaha-Ponca cases) or a rather generalized, automatic situation (as in Crow or Omaha-Ponca), so no doubt there is some work to be done with it. This is interesting. John, what are the Mississippi Valley suffixes that behave the same as the Crow suffixes that follow the citation form? Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 17 08:05:46 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:05:46 -0600 Subject: Crow Citation Form and MVS Theme Form (Re: "WOUND") In-Reply-To: <365.4124d15.31977005@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > This is interesting. John, what are the Mississippi Valley suffixes that > behave the same as the Crow suffixes that follow the citation form? Warning - I now proceed to beat this topic to death! Comparing Crow Citation Forms with Moribund Mississippi Valley Theme Formation Morphology; Cognates and Functional Similarities Between Crow Suffixes Conditioning Citation Forms and MVS Enclitics Conditioning Thematic Forms Crow citation form discussion after Graczyk draft grammar, 2.5.12. All Crow stems end in vowels. There are no nasal vowels at present, and all possible short and long oral vowels occur as stem finals, as well as the two diphthongs ia and ua. The relation of stem form to citation form, Table 6: Stem Ending : Citation Form Ending : Formation of Citation Form i : e (= ee) : lowering ii : iia : schwa off-glide u : o (= oo) : lowering uu : uua : schwa off-glide e (= ee) : e ( = ee) : invariant short (mid) ee : ee : invariant long (mid) o (= oo) : o (= oo) : invariant short (mid) oo : oo : invariant long (mid) a : e ( = ee) : short ablauting aa : ee : long ablauting ia : ia : invariant diphthong ua : ua : invariant diphthong The annotation V (= VV) for o and e refers to RG's comment that all mid vowels are essentially long, though the popular orthography writes some as short. Notice that "short e" and "short o" alternate with themselves (invariant short mid pattern), with short a (short ablauting pattern), and with short i or u (lowering pattern). Final e and o utterance-final or in isolation are pronounced [] and []. Except for ablauting stems then, one might say that final i and u lowered to e and o, similarly, in citation forms. Lowering e => o => i => e u => o a not lowered, but ablauted Perhaps short e and o are sometimes just contextual variants of short i and u, and so truely are short? Not exactly a pure phonemic analysis, but students of vowel harmony and Eskimo schwa have often found similarly awkward neutralizations. (JEK, not RG, waxing heretical.) The stem is the base for addition of most suffixes. The citation form is the un-suffixed form, and the base for a few suffixes. The citation form is also the form used to answer "What's the word for ...?" The citation form of nouns is common, but verbs tend to occur with post stem suffixes. Suffixes that attach to the citation form are: -sh definite article (also with names? JEK) e.g. 'the man' -m indefinite, non-specific article e.g. 'a horse' -n locative e.g. 'in, on' -taa path e.g. 'along' -ta 'seem, resemble' Ignoring the invariant cases, it appears that the behaviors associated with citation forms are lowering of high short vowels, schwa off-glides of long high vowels, and ablauting of a and aa to e and ee, respectively. Nothing so far said addresses the question of accentual shifts in connection with citation form or adding of these suffixes. Randy has discussed some of this with Bob on the list recently. So, note Stem : Citation Form : Suffixed Citation Form bili' 'water' : (bilee' ?) : bile'esh 'the water' bi'tchii 'knife' : bi'tchiia short u? awuu' 'inside': awuua' : awu'uan 'inside' e'hche 'know' : e'hche bachee' 'man' : bachee' : bache'esh 'the man' awa' 'earth' : (awe' ?) : awe'en 'on the ground' long a? bi'a 'woman' : bi'a : (bi'ash 'the woman' ?) bua' 'fish' : bua' : (bu'ash 'the fish' ?) I am not sure the forms listed exhaust the accentual patterns, but it looks a bit as though the citation forms here were exhibiting V1(V1)' + V2 + suffix, where the deleted vowel V2 merges with V1(V1)' as low mora of a simplified V1'V1. (This is more or less [=la] what Randy and Bob were discussing.) So perhaps stems besides the long high final vowel stems add schwa in their citation forms, but it is absorbed phonetically by the preceding vowel under some conditions. Mississippi Valley Cognates of Suffixes to Citation Forms -sh def art < *=s^ (cf. Mandan =s) Maybe an irregular reduction of *=ki via *=k? OP animate proximate articles are =akha +/- singular and =ama ~/- plural. The OP obviative proximate article =ma collective shows that a- is added in =ama. Proto-Dhegiha forms would be *=a-kha *=a-Wa *=Wa Here we see noun + a + article, but -a- is reanalyzed as part of the article. Note also the Winnebago article =ra ?< *=ya, comparable to the Dakotan postvocalic -ya variant of the -a "stem forming" vowel, as in wiNyaN 'woman' ~ wiN- (combining form) iNyaN 'stone' ~ iN- (combining form) heya 'louse' ~ he- (combining form). Here we see again noun + a forming the definite or independent form. Winnebago may generalize *=ya to replace *-a ~ -ya, and substitute noun + a for noun + a + article. -m indef art Cognate presumably with *wiN-a-, *waN 'a, one'. No evidence on thematic form with MVS indefinites. -n locative < *-r. May be an irregular reduction of PS *=tu, cf., Dakotan pattern for *tu. For *=tu consider: OP =di locative: 'in, at' ('to' with motion verbs) Os =ci Ks =j^i On the whole these suggest PDh *=ti (?), but I think that PDh *=tu is correct, taking Dakotan into account. The Os and Ks forms may simply unround in final unstressed position? Te =tu ~ =l Sa =tu ~ =d etc. suggest PDa *=tu ~ *=R, where *R is regular from *t in final position. -taa path < *taa Seems a good match for MVS *=(k)-ta 'to(ward)', though it might be *thaN 'from', too! OP =tta 'to' ('toward' with motion verbs) Os =tta Ks =tta PDh *=tta < *=hta Te =ta, but =k-ta after e 'the aforesaid' he 'that' The extra -k- with demonstratives explains the *=hta form in Dhegiha. The source of this *-k- is not clear. Perhaps *ki 'the'? OP =di=thaN 'from' < 'in' + thaN =tta=thaN 'from' < 'to' + thaN Te =taNhaN < *=ta=thaN (*th > h in Dakotan) The interesting thing about the Dh and Da locative forms is that they condition inserted -a- after some nouns, e.g. OP tti' 'dwelling' + di => tti'a=di but Te thi'=l (I don't think we ever find *-ya=l or *-ya=tu.) OP tti' 'dwelling' + tta => tti'a=tta Te thi- + ta => thiya'=ta Dakotan makes up for lacking -ya- with *tu by using it with -takiya 'toward' and -taNhaN 'on that side, from'. Te thi + takiya => thiya'=takiya, etc. Dakotan =tu conditions the e-grade of ablaut in nouns. -ta 'seem, Compare the Dakotan diminutive. resemble' Te =laka 'consider as' (dependent verb) Te =la diminutive I think the Dakotan diminutive derives from readings like 'a so-called X', 'a sort of X', 'something that would pass for an X', 'x-like'. English use of -kin: panikin, manikin, munchkin, etc., seems similar. The Dakotan diminutive conditions the e-grade of ablaut in some nouns including the -ye variant of the stem forming -e e.g. s^uNkwiN'ye=la 'mare' s^ahi'ye=la 'Cheyenne' So, to summarize: Crow has -a (including perhaps some covert cases) or a => e ablaut to mark the citation form, and that is used in "independent" (unsuffixed) contexts and with certain suffixes in the class of articles, postpositions, and 'seem, resemble'. MVS has -a ~ -e to mark what I've been called themes, i.e., nouns in independent contexts (not compounded). Thematic forms in *-(y)a are fossilized before certain locatives, and extra a- prefixes some classes of articles in Dhegiha. The e-ablaut grade occurs in Dakotan before one locative (=tu) and before the diminutive which seems to have a 'seem, resemble' origin. The most likely cognates for the actual conditioning suffixes (Crow) or enclitics (MVS) are PS *wiN-a- 'one' : Cr -m indef art : Te waN indef art : OP wiN indef art PS *=tu : Cr -n : Te =tu ~ =l : OP =di : Os =ci : Ks =j^i loc PS *=thaN path : Cr -taa path : Te =(taN)haN 'side, from' : OP =thaN extent, from-compounds and/or PS *=k-ta 'to' : Cr -taa : Te =(k)-ta- 'to' : OP =tta 'to' Less secure is PS *ki def art : Cr -s^ def art : Te ki(N) def art : OP ... A certain amount of irregularity is involved in the sound correspondences, and often patterns are somewhat variable, but I think the general pattern is clear enough. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 19 16:54:46 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:54:46 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. John, my understanding is that OP has ppi, 'I came', for the A1 of i, as well as pHi, 'I went', for the A1 of hi. I'm pretty sure I've gotten our speakers to agree to this on more than one occasion. Is that not what your information shows? I believe s^i works in both directions. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 19 22:00:09 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:00:09 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > > However, some Dhegiha forms - I'd have to look them up - treat the > > stem as h-initial, e.g, I think Ks has A1 phu, A2 s^u, A3 hu, but > > vertitive gu, if I'm remembering this rightly. OP has A1 phi, A2 s^i, > > but A3 i and vertitive gi. The OP i, not *hi is a surprise in an > > h-stem, but consistent with a ?-stem. > > John, my understanding is that OP has ppi, 'I came', for the A1 of i, as > well as pHi, 'I went', for the A1 of hi. I'm pretty sure I've gotten our > speakers to agree to this on more than one occasion. Is that not what your > information shows? I think it's: PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) Da u ku i (vert khi) Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there A1 phi ppi phi A2 s^i s^ki s^i A3 ai=i agi=i ahi=i > I believe s^i works in both directions. In a sense, per the above, but not for gi. This sounds like a result of the serious difficulties that exist in asking questions about deitics and directional verbs in an abstract context. (Been there; done that!) Siouanists get used to dealing with these verbs in terms of the careful "pro forma" definitions offered by Dorsey, etc., but speakers, or at least those of today, take a more pragmatic, contextual approach. They don't map to the "pseudo-Siouan" 'come back' or 'travel hither again', they just map to the contextual equivalent in English. And since there are slew more Omaha distinctions than English makes, and a certain number of homophonies and irregularities, it can be very difficult to sort things out. Fortunately, I started with Dorsey and Taylor. My rule of thumb is that you can get any English motion verb (come, go) as a translation of any Omaha motion verb if you keep track. When you throw in arrive, reach, get to, be here/there, etc., it get a bit more illuminating. Same interchangeability of English demonstratives and Omaha demonstratives. When I first elicited ga and dhe, I was told they meant 'this' and 'that' respectively. I filed this away under "the education of a field linguist; crossreference: figure out later" and kept going. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri May 19 23:05:59 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:05:59 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John wrote: > I think it's: > > PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) > Da u ku i (vert khi) > Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) > > stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there > > A1 phi ppi phi > A2 s^i s^ki s^i > A3 ai=i agi=i ahi=i > >> I believe s^i works in both directions. > > In a sense, per the above, but not for gi. I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> u-umlaut? Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I came', rather than ppi? In A3 at least, it seems that gi has been expanding at the expense of i, certainly at least in the command form. Might this have happened with A1 as well? Pragmatically, the vertitive form isn't necessarily that clearly distinguishable from the plain form. Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 21 07:00:41 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:00:41 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. You meant A2, right? > So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: > > stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there > > A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi > A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi > > with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> > u-umlaut? That's more or less what I assume. It's not clear what's going on with *s^-h or *p-k, but presumably those are something like the PMV or PS forms. Those are the "logical" forms. However, I think that for PDh, given the correspondences, I'd opt for *s^-u and *s^-i (without h) in the second person of the h-stems and, by the same argument, for *p-ku I'd opt for *h-pu, since we get OP ppi, Os hpu, etc. For PDh *kaN-dha 'to want' the fisrt person might be *h-kaN=p-ra, cf. OP kkaN'=bdha. The Dhegihanists will recognize that 'to want' is the only k-stem (or g-stem) that has "kk" in the first person. The others have "pp," like OP ga'ghe 'to make': A1 ppa(a)'ghe, A2 s^ka(a)'ghe. There aren't many k-stems, of course, but it's about 5 to 1 in favor of "pp," which is PDh *hp. It appears that *p- (or *b- or *w-) 'first person' comes out h before another stop consonant, which is normal, since clusters of stop + stop ending in p come out the same, e.g., *pte 'cow bison' > PDh *hte > OP tte. How far the *h-p treatment of the first persons of *k-stems goes is an interesting question. I actually have a published article in IJAL discussing a pair of forms from Buechel (pp. 449, 465), pointed out to me by Allan Taylor, which suggest that Teton may have had A1 phu, A2 s^ku for the first and second person of ku until fairly recently. These are the regular Teton reflexes of *hpu and *s^ku, and that suggests that the *hpu/*s^ku pattern for *ku goes back to Proto-Mississippi Valley. > Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I > came', rather than ppi? Yes, though, of course, it doesn't mean 'I came', but 'I arrived there' or some other more componential meaning which would be translated contextually as 'I came' (if the speaker sees themself [!] as at the point of arrival, but the hearer as not. Or it could be translated 'I arrived', etc. Returning to the place where a relative is lying near death.) 90:147.9-10: ... eathaN s^ki=a? ... ... why you came back QUESTION ... ... i'wippahaN=tt= egaN ppi ... ... I know you IRREALIS CONJUNCT I headed back here ... '... why did you come back here? ... I came back so I would know what happened) to you ...' Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: 90:122.7-10 ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION why have you come ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha he had come boy the Buzzard explains to Haghige that he has been over to the camp of the watermonsters to doctor the young of the monsters: 90:254.4-5 ... a'daN ze'=wadhe phi'= ha ... therefore to doctor them I went (arrived there) DECL ... s^i'= the=di a'wa=th=e=giz^aN=s^naN=a ... you got there the (place) at I think I've gotten all three contrasts here, and in ways that show the stem involved. I'm not sure that the standard glossing of u and dhe as 'be en route here' and 'be en route there' works here. "Set out for ..." doesn't seem much more promising. It may be focus - whether the arrival or the direction is more salient. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 21 07:39:04 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:39:04 -0600 Subject: Motion Verbs (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > PMVS *(h)u *ku *hi (vert *hki) Correction! (vert *khi) > Da u ku i (vert khi) > Ks hu (?) gu hi (vert khi) > > stem i 'come' gi 'come back' hi 'arrive there You can check this out easily in Allan Taylor's 1976 article on Siouan motion verbs in IJAL. A couple of footnotes help with that: - The u in Ks and Os is u-umlaut, not i-bar. Allan misunderstood something Bob told him. - The proposed *rh set occurs in a fair number of words, not just *rhi 'to arrive here'. In fact, I think this is usually regarded as *th these days, though some cases of it may arrive from *r(V) + h, e.g., 'to arrive here' < *re (or *ru?) + *hi 'to arrive (there)' (Bob's suggestion). - Allan barely scratches the surface of the compounding issue. I've debated the initial of OP 'to come' with Bob Rankin a number of times. I've never been able to find a clear case of hi (without a- and =i) that seems to be come. There are some i, I think. However, as far as I can remember hu appears in Ks and Os and hi in Qu. That makes the third person of *(h)u 'come' and *hi 'arrive there' homophonous if the vowel u shifts to i, as it does in OP. That may be one reason for not having *hi in the third person of 'come'. Siouan languages have a high tolerance for homophony, but only if it can be cleverly distinguished somehow in the cases that would be ambiguous. Bearing in mind that these are "raw" stems and that "motion toward" tends to become "start toward," in some languages. motion toward arriving here there here there regular vert regular vert regular vert regular vert PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi Para ?- k- r- reg reg reg h- reg Te u k-u yA g -lA -hi g -li i k-hi OP (h)i g-i dhE g-dhE t-hi g-dhi hi k-hi Ks hu g-u yE -lE c^-hi -li hi k-hi Os hu k-u dhE -lE c-hi -li hi k-hi Qu hi k-i dE k- dE t-hi k- di hi k-hi IO hu g-u rE g- rE -j^i g- ri hi -gi Wi huu g-uu rEE kE-rE -j^ii ki- ri hii -gii Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih I've notionally treated initial *t in *thi as a prefix, though this is purely a matter of internal reconstruction. Only the vertitive suggests it within MVS, i.e., perhaps *k-ri < *k(i)-r(e)-hi, with reduction of *krhi to *kri. Based on the pronouns one would expect *kathi or maybe just *kithi for this vertitive. I've written initial dash on forms where a change in consonantism is now used to reflect a previous prefix (*t- and *k-). This is a common development in Siouan. The motion verbs are a hotbed of "syncopated" or "irregular" inflection. The stem *(h)u may originally have been inflected A1 *W-u, A2 *y-u as a glottal stop stem, but appears except in Dakotan hiyu as an h-stem or regular. The stem *hi appears as an h-stem (A1 *phi, A2 s^i) or as a regular. The stem *ku appears as a k-stem (A1 *hpu, A2 *s^ku) or as a regular; *re is, of course, an r-stem (A1 *p-rE, A2 *s^re). The rest begin with clusters (or aspirates) and are regular (e.g., *wa-thi, A2 *ra-thi). Or maybe "regular" means "requiring an epenthetic vowel -a- to break up a three element cluster due to prefixation." Dakota has regularized a lot, as has Mandan. IO and Winnebago haven't so much regularized as been driven to supplementing the irregular paradigms with regular prefixes because sound changes have erased the syncopating pronouns. The final consonants in the Mandan forms reflect a consonant that appears before certain endings, e.g., -o?s^ 'declarative' and disappears finally or before other consonants. So 'I came' would be wahuro?s^. Taken together it is hard not to believe that final -h corresponds to stem initial aspiration elsewhere. The disappearing finals in Mandan are -r, -h, and -?, sometimes -?r. We know that some Mandan dialects had different endings for some words (a list from Maximilian analyzed by Dick Carter), so it appears that "final" behavior has been subject to some degree of analogical restructuring of these transitions. So, for example, a -r form may represent something else. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 22 08:28:39 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:28:39 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > It appears that *p- (or *b- or *w-) 'first person' comes out h before > another stop consonant, which is normal, since clusters of stop + stop > ending in p come out the same, e.g., *pte 'cow bison' > PDh *hte > OP > tte. I guess this was sloppy phrasing - I mean that *p A1 is reduced to preaspiration before another stop. Butthe important factor here is that appears that *k-stems behave in the first person (only) like *p-stems in Dhegiha in all but one case, with 'want, desire' being the only exception, This seems to say something about assimilation of stops in *pk clusters, but it over-simplifies things to say that *pk > *hp, since we have a verb 'I want' and a noun 'turtle', in which *pk appears to act as *hk, as in 'I want', with no assimlation. In addition, outside of Dhegiha and the one isolated Dakota example mentioned, *hk appears with all known *k-stems. PS Ma PMV Da OP Wi 'turtle' *pke pke *hke khe(ya) kke kee 'I want' *pkuN- +++ *hkuN- +++ kkaN- +++ 'I come back' *pku +++ *hpu ~ *hku (?) phu ppi kuu 'I make' *pkaghe --- *hpaghe ~ ??? +++ ppaghe +++ 'I immitate' *pkuNs --- *hpuNze +++ ppaNze +++ 'I donate' *pka- +++ *hpa- +++ ppadhe +++ 'I don't *pkuN- ??? *hpuN- ??? ppaNz^iNga ??? know how to' +++ => the cognate form inflects by another pattern, or doesn't inflect, or has unknown inflection, and so doesn't bear on the situation. I think *ku 'to come back' is the only *k-stem attested in Winnebago or Ioway-Otoe. For that matter, *ku is the only *k-stem in Dakotan, so to speak. But the phu example might be the first person of u 'come', instead, even though, as we've seen, *bu looks like a better bet for an old Dakotan form. Normally the first persons of these stems are the regular forms waku and wau, of course. OP gaN-z^iNga 'to not know how to' might be 'to little desire to', in which case it would have *p-stem first person with the same stem *gaN- that gets the *k-stem treatment. In that case, apart from the Dakota case of phu 'I came back' (?), *p-stem first persons for *k-stems begins to look like a Dhegiha idiosyncracy. The only *t-stems, are *a...ta 'to see', *tuNp ~ *tuN- 'to see', and maybe *ta 'wake up' (?) (cf. Te kikta 'to awaken'). *P-stems are fairly common, though most are formed with the instrumentals *pa- and *pu-. Perhaps any tendency to *h-p in the *k-stems is simple analogy with *p-stems. One further oddity about *kuN 'want'. This stem does not palatalize in Dakotan. I keep collecting these oddities, and periodically I trot them out, hoping that someone will think of something illuminating. I haven't yet myself, but this time around I did notice that 'to want' tends to be formed with an *o-locative. Ma o...kuNh 'to want something' (and notice that final h!) Te o...kuN, kuN, kuNla (only first part inflected) OP gaN=dha (both parts inflected) IO guNra (regular? only first part inflected?) Wi roo...guN (regular) But then, *(w)o- prefixes occur with other *k-stems, too, e.g., Wi wooga 'gift', wooguNs 'creator'. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon May 22 09:12:02 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 03:12:02 -0600 Subject: Motion Verbs (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2006, Koontz John E wrote: > motion toward arriving > here there here there > regular vert regular vert regular vert regular vert > > PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi > > OP (h)i g-i dhE g-dhE t-hi g-dhi hi k-hi > Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih > > Taken together it is hard not to believe that final -h corresponds to > stem initial aspiration elsewhere. The disappearing finals in Mandan > are -r, -h, and -?, sometimes -?r. We know that some Mandan dialects > had different endings for some words (a list from Maximilian analyzed by > Dick Carter), so it appears that "final" behavior has been subject to > some degree of analogical restructuring of these transitions. So, for > example, a -r form may represent something else. Let me try to reword that last so makes some sort of sense! To fair extent it appears that Mandan -h corresponds to aspiration of the initial in MVS. > PMV *(h)u *k-u *rE *k -rE *t-hi *k -ri *hi *k-hi > Ma hur k-uh rEh kE-rEh t- i ki- ri hi k- ih For example, here the rule holds with *khi : kih, and perhaps with *ku : kuh. However it doesn't occur with *thi : ti. But, that set (*thi : ti) is one where -r would be a natural, and we also don't find *tir. We also find -h with *rE : rEh, unexpectedly. However, it appears that this stem may have been *reh- or *rehV, cf. Hidatsa rEhE. I assume that historically -r- reflects an epenthetic glide between a stem final vowel and a following vowel-initial morpheme, while -h and -? reflect "aspiration" and "glottalization" of the root. At present in Mandan the conditioning is much more arbitrary. In fact, we find 0 (nothing), -r, -h, -?, and -?r without any obvious Mandan-internal conditioning, In fact, we know that Mandan once had dialects that differed in which of these endings they associated with a particular root. This was deduced from Maximilian's word lists by Dick Carter. I conclude that -r or -h or -? reflect V-final, aspirated and glottalized stems, and may occur in correspondence to such things elsewhere, or may not, for Mandan-internal reasons. If a Mandan final matches the right pattern elsewhere, they are cognate. If it doesn't, then something has happened to this stem in Mandan to alter its behavior. I don't think we can reliably reconstruct a feature for a PS root from a Mandan final by itself, and, on the whole, these finals simply attest that certain stem features occurred, not where they occurred. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon May 22 14:48:07 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:48:07 -0500 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I see; that makes sense! And that fills in the A1 for gi, s^ki as well. > > You meant A2, right? No, I meant that you had filled in the A1 hole for gi: A1 ?? (John supplied ppi) A2 s^ki A3 gi >> So the (Pre?)Proto-Dhegihan forms might look like: >> >> stem (h)u 'come' ku 'come back' hi 'arrive there >> >> A1 p-(h)u p-ku p-hi >> A2 s^-(h)u s^-ku s^-hi >> >> with pku -> hpu when double stop consonants were leveled, and u -> >> u-umlaut? > > That's more or less what I assume. It's not clear what's going on with > *s^-h or *p-k, but presumably those are something like the PMV or PS > forms. Those are the "logical" forms. However, I think that for PDh, > given the correspondences, I'd opt for *s^-u and *s^-i (without h) in the > second person of the h-stems and, by the same argument, for *p-ku I'd opt > for *h-pu, since we get OP ppi, Os hpu, etc. I was trying to favor "logical" forms in that chart. The question of aspirating a fricative might deserve a small discussion in itself! Here, it looks like it makes no difference to a fricative whether the leading vowel of the following morpheme is logically "rough" or "smooth". Your observation that *p-ku had probably already become *hpu by proto-MVS is interesting, and well-taken. >> Do we have evidence that pHi is/has been used in historical OP for 'I >> came', rather than ppi? > > Yes, though, of course, it doesn't mean 'I came', but 'I arrived there' [...] I know pHi can mean 'I arrived there', but does it ever mean 'I came'? The above chart indicates that MVS *(h)u, 'come', and *hi, 'arrive there', collapse together phonemically in A1 and A2 in OP: MVS *(h)u, OP MVS *hi, 'come' 'arrive there' A1 p-(h)u > pHi < p-hi A2 s^-(h)u > s^i < s^-hi > I think I've gotten all three contrasts here, and in ways that show the stem involved. No, we're still missing an A1 'come' example, and that's the one I'm asking about. (The A1/A2 contrasts for gi and hi are excellent, BTW!) The one you started: > Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: > > 90:122.7-10 > > ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION > why have you come > > ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha > he had come boy the has A2 (s^i) for i, 'come', but the second sentence is unrelated, having A3 (ahi) for hi, 'arrive there'. The full sentence is actually GaN' s^I ni' kHE'di ahi' biama' nu'z^iNga akHa'. And again the boy arrived there at the water. So do we have any known cases in OP of pHi as the A1 of i, 'come'? Or has ppi, the A1 of gi, 'come back', entirely replaced it, such that ppi means either 'I came' or 'I came back', and pHi is used only for 'I went (arrived) there'? Rory From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 15:44:25 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:44:25 -0600 Subject: A Small Discussion of Aspirated Fricatives (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the Dakotanists (especially those with a knowledge of Stoney or Assiniboine) will stick with me (or skip to the bottom) I have a question for them. In fact, to give it here, out of context: what is the second person of 'to say'? I'll also give the moral here. No matter what the answer is to the proceeding question, the moral is, "If any personal form of a Siouan verb is irregular, elicit all personal forms for it, and in the case of a dictionary, note all forms (either explicitly or with a paradigm code) for all verbs." This harks back to Jimm's sad experience with 'to wound', of course! Somebody, sooner or later, will regret any non-compliance in this area. Even the most innocent of verbs may have a single irregular form, e.g., OP i'...bahaN 'to know' has idhappahaN 'I know' instead of expected ippahaN. Everything else is regular, though. On Mon, 22 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: Given forms like s^ + hi => s^i, ... > The question of aspirating a fricative might deserve a small discussion > in itself! Here, it looks like it makes no difference to a fricative > whether the leading vowel of the following morpheme is logically "rough" > or "smooth". Well, let's see ... Swanton represents Ofo as having something that he represents as aspirated fricatives. But in the contexts of Dhegiha, to some extent it seems to me that the difference between "voiceless" and "voiced" fricatives in Dhegiha (Omaha-Ponca, anyway), is more of a difference between "bright" or "clear" fricatives and "dull" or "muffled" ones, which might be characterized also as aspirated vs. unaspirated. This observation has always been tempered by a suspicion that I was wandering off the beaten track in an area, phonetics, where I knew just enough to suspect this sounded silly. You've probably noticed that Dorsey specifically marks "s" and "s^" before n as "turned," or "unaspirated." I think he uses turned letters for the voiced fricatives in Osage. I wondered about this, but, sure enough, when I heard Omaha spoken, words like snede sounded like znede. (I have a tendency to recall this word as snede', but I think this must be a case where it is easy to hear pitch accent (sneHdeL) incorrectly as final stress accent (sne 'de).) To revert to the case of the second persons of h-stems, s^ there is definitely one of the "bright" ones. The same morpheme comes out z^ before ?-stems, e.g., az^iN 'you suspect' (a=...(?)iN 'to suspect, to infer'), which I think behave as vowel-initial in the first and second persons of Dhegiha. So maybe it's *s^hi vs. *a=s^iN, leading to s^i vs. az^iN in the usual spelling. However, I am a bit reluctant to think of cases like xidha 'eagle' and ghage 'to cry' as xhidha vs. xage. I guess this would make waxe 'whiteman' out to be waxhe. And nuxe 'ice' would be nuxhe. But gaghe 'make' becomes gaxe. And isn't it gaxa 'branch', so gaxha? Here's something for the Dakotanists: at one point I noticed that Dakota has this inflectional paradigm for 'say', compared with the OP one: Da OP A1 ephe ehe (but egiphe in the dative) A2 ehe es^e A3 eye a=i The third person stem might be *e=...(r)E (*r > y in Dakota), though it seems to be just unepenthesized (e=)E in OP (with ablaut before =i). If there's no epenthetic glide between two vowels, the regular behavior is to lose the first, so perhaps e=...E always comes out e or a in OP. I think cases of e are rare. I don't recall one, and they are hard to search for! But, getting to the point, the first and second person stems are clearly *e=...E. What I noticed was that the Dakota second person form form has h (with loss of s^), while the OP form has s^ (with loss of h). Then it occurred to me that the middle demonstrative in Dakotan is he, while in Dhegiha it's s^e. At that point I suggested that the middle demonstrative was PS (or PMV) *s^he. David and Bob, however, pointed out that Assiniboine and Stoney have s^e instead of he. That was disappointing, though interesting, too. However, I think that at the time I forgot to ask what the second person of 'to say' was in Assiniboine or Stoney! I suppose it's still ehe? This becomes an interesting question because eya 'to say' is the only "functioning" h-stem in Dakotan. The others have all lost their h's and gone regular. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 17:36:11 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:36:11 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Rory M Larson wrote: > I know pHi can mean 'I arrived there', but does it ever mean 'I came'? I probably shouldn't get too fussy about semantics, since my brain doesn't work very well in that direction, but I think it always means something like 'to travel to a distal point, and emphasize arriving there'. However, it might well translate to or from 'come' in a particular English context, because the semantics of 'come' and 'go' work differently. For example, I think an English sentence like 'That was just after I came to Macy.' would involve hi, not i, whereas 'I came to Macy every day for a month.' might be i and not hi. For that matter, a sentence like 'He went to Denver.' might be hi. > The above chart indicates that MVS *(h)u, 'come', and *hi, 'arrive > there', collapse together phonemically in A1 and A2 in OP: Which is definitely awkward amd might have an effect on usage. > No, we're still missing an A1 'come' example, and that's the one I'm > asking about. The one you started: > > > Hero boy arrives to rescue maiden: > > > > 90:122.7-10 > > > > ea'thaN s^i'=a? ... QUESTION > > why have you come > > > > ahi=bi=ama nu'z^iNga=akha > > he had come boy the > > has A2 (s^i) for i, 'come', but the second sentence is unrelated, having A3 > (ahi) for hi, 'arrive there'. The full sentence is actually > > GaN' s^I ni' kHE'di ahi' biama' nu'z^iNga akHa'. > And again the boy arrived there at the water. You're right! Not a good pair. I was looking for pairs that showed the morphology and were linked pragmatically by context as much as for first and second person pairs per se, but not only is this pair not parallel, but one is i 'come' and the other hi 'arrive there'. > So do we have any known cases in OP of pHi as the A1 of i, 'come'? Or has > ppi, the A1 of gi, 'come back', entirely replaced it, such that ppi means > either 'I came' or 'I came back', and pHi is used only for 'I went > (arrived) there'? I couldn't say for modern usage, but I think phi in both 'I come' and 'I arrive there' senses occurs in Dorsey. 1890:199.12 kki dhe' udhu'ahe bdhe'=dhiN wa'dhighe= akha=di phi and this I followed her I went the she married them the at I arrived And I got to where the woman whom I was following had married someone (else) (or maybe 'had been sleeping around') (This is said in discussion after returning.) 1890:297.17 e'=di phi'= hnaN= maN e'=de sabe' he'ga=b=az^i there I arrived regularly I-AUX but wise they were not a little Though I went there frequently, they were exceedingly cautious Here "went" seems to work better in English, but Dorsey renders it "I arrived," and clearly intends a different verb from ppi, which he renders 'I came back', 'I was coming back', 'I was bringing it back', etc. For phi 'I come': 1890:87.14 Hau! Udhi'dha=i= egaN, winaN'?aN phi' ha Ho! you have been spoken of CONJUNCT I hear you I have been coming DEC "Ho, as they have been talking about you, I have come to hear you." 1890:170.19 E'dabe e=s^naN=xc^i awa'giaN=bdha phi e'd= egaN, also quite alone I left mine I came UNEXPECTED CONJUNCT ga=thaN'=xti awa'gittaNbe kkaN'=bdha at last I see my own I wish "Also, having come here alone, leaving home and family behind, I have reached a point where I long to see them." In addition, though I'll put off looking them up at present, Dorsey has the paradigms for the various verbs of motion in his draft grammar. So, although he was certainly influenced in his work by Riggs, I believe he found a three-way contrast (with some hmophony in A1 and A2 of i and hi). It definitely helps in working with these verbs to keep track of the relative location of speech act and activity discussed, not to mention whether it is diredt discourse or indirect discourse, since "I have arrived here, he said" and "he arrived there" present two different versions of the same event. It may be time for somebody more knowledgeable to jump in, but I think that English 'come' and 'go' can refer to 'motion toward' and 'motion away' relative to a goal or source, if specified or implicit, and revert to being relative the locus of the speech act only if they are not. But I'm not sure Siouan languages do this. I think their motion verbs are always relative to the locus of the speech act. Has anyone gone into the semantics of Siouan motion verbs in detail? Barring that, there is an article that (so far as I have gotten through it) is generally useful: Talmy, Leonard. 1985, 1987. "Lexicalization patterns: semantic structure in lexical form." In Timothy Shopen, ed. Language typolocy and syntactic description, III: Grammatical categories and the lexicon." Pp. 57-150. Talmy treats motion verbs among other cases, and suggests that languages tend to have sets that distinguish path + fact-of-motion, manner/cause + fact-of-motion, or figure + fact-of-motion. Most Indo-European languages have motion verbs of the second type. The first type are found in Romance, Semitic, Polynesian, Nez Perce, and Caddo. Also, I think Siouan. For the third type his examples are Atsugewi and Navajo. His Spanish examples include usages like: La botella entro' a/salio' de la cueva (flotando) The bottle floated in/out of the cave La botella se fue' de/volvio' a la orilla (flotando) The floated away from/back to the bank Showing that you have to specify the path, not the manner. Of course this says nothing about where the path is anchored or about arriving vs. starting or being en route, and Talmy doesn't go into that. For those who were wondering about "type 3," such languages tend to to require that the nature of the movement (into or through certain things) be specified, rather than the path or manner of moving. I won't try to include the transcriptions, but the Atsugewi examples are: yucky stuff + on the ground + by gravity + inflection The guts are on the ground yucky stuff + into liquid + by wind + inflection The guts blew into the creek yucky stuff + into fire + using a linear object moving axially + inflection I prodded the guts into the fire with a stick Type two, of course, is exhibited in the English glosses. From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue May 23 17:55:26 2006 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:55:26 -0400 Subject: A Small Discussion of Aspirated Fricatives (Re: OP: coming and going) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quick answer to your question, John: (Assiniboine doesn't ablaut word-final A) A1s epha A2s eha A3s eya -Linda Quoting Koontz John E : > If the Dakotanists (especially those with a knowledge of Stoney or > Assiniboine) will stick with me (or skip to the bottom) I have a question > for them. In fact, to give it here, out of context: what is the second > person of 'to say'? > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Tue May 23 18:31:15 2006 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:31:15 -0400 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Koontz John E : > > Has anyone gone into the semantics of Siouan motion verbs in detail? > I have, for Assiniboine, at least. Y'all saw a preliminary analysis at Spearfish, and I've devoted a full chapter to a much more detailed analysis in my Assiniboine grammar. My analysis involves a deictic center and two separate bases (A and B), plus something I've dubbed the "apogee" (the point at which one switches from non-return to return verbs). It all boils down into a neat little diagram - the picture that takes 1000 words (or more!) to explain. I understood that I should be working this up for the comparative Siouan grammar workshop next month. I've been slotting data from the other Siouan languages into my diagram -- and, assuming I'm interpreting the data correctly, finding that the structure works with reasonable consistency across the entire language family. It would be difficult to put the whole thing across in an email message, so I was planning to give a detailed explanation at the workshop. Linda From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 20:29:20 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:29:20 -0600 Subject: OP: coming and going In-Reply-To: <20060523143115.l2vd58gzdc8wcwgg@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2006, Cumberland, Linda wrote: > I understood that I should be working this up for the comparative Siouan > grammar workshop next month. I've been slotting data from the other > Siouan languages into my diagram -- and, assuming I'm interpreting the > data correctly, finding that the structure works with reasonable > consistency across the entire language family. It would be difficult to > put the whole thing across in an email message, so I was planning to > give a detailed explanation at the workshop. I look forward to hearing it! (Remind me at the conference.) I'm sorry I forgot your previous paper. I do remember it now that you remind me. At some point, some years ago now, I stopped remembering some of everything that happened near me and started remembering only some of what I was focussed on at the time. This keeps coming back to haunt me. At some point I went from being willing to be younger again if I could know then what I know now to being willing to be older if I could just know now what I knew then. From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Tue May 23 22:12:23 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:12:23 -0600 Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: In working on my paper for the Conference I've realized that I don't know if all Crow nouns have plural marking on the verbal model, or if it is only some that do. It looks like alienably and inalienably possessed nouns that are marked, in the interest of the possessor. Also, the plural occurs with nouns like 'woman' when they are used verbally, e.g., biak 'she's a woman' : biok 'they are women'. (I think I have thpse right.) As far as Hidatsa, I've found a comment in Matthews to the effect that nouns do not distinguish number. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From Rgraczyk at aol.com Wed May 24 14:55:38 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:55:38 EDT Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: Yes, Crow nouns mark the plural the same as verbs do. Plural marking on possessed nouns indicates that the possessor is plural. And nouns used verbally can also be plural. Hidatsa nouns do mark plural number, although it looks quite different from Crow. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 24 15:56:30 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:56:30 -0600 Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking In-Reply-To: <441.18ce023.31a5cdea@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > Yes, Crow nouns mark the plural the same as verbs do. Plural marking on > possessed nouns indicates that the possessor is plural. And nouns used verbally > can also be plural. Fresh from an illuminating series of comments from John Boyle on Hidatsa, I take it verbs agree with subject and object using one plural slot in the usual Siouan way (but not the usual Hidatsa way)? And I take it that nouns can be pluralized when arguments of verbs, and not just when predicative or possessed? Any constraints on when or when not? > Hidatsa nouns do mark plural number, although it looks quite different > from Crow. You're not kidding! From jkyle at ku.edu Wed May 24 21:38:35 2006 From: jkyle at ku.edu (Kyle, John H) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:38:35 -0500 Subject: Dakota active stative reduplication Message-ID: I hope someone could help clarify some questions for me. Boas & Deloria (1941) and Shaw (1980) give examples of reduplicated stative verbs in Dakota which have 2nd syllable stress and reduplicated active verbs which have initial stress: Stative: /puz/ puspu'za 'be dry' /sak/ saksa'ka 'be hard and stiff' /sap/ sapsa'pa 'be black' Active: /Gop/ Go'pGopa 'to snore' /yuz/ yu'syuza 'to take hold of' They also give examples where a reduplicated stative verb can become active by moving the 2nd syllable stress to the initial syllable: /xop/ xopxo'pa 'to be good-looking' xo'pxopa 'to pose, try to appear one's best' /ks^aN/ ks^aNks^aN' 'to be crooked' ks^aN'ks^aN 'he wriggles his body about' My questions: Most of the glosses for these forms are given as infinitives (the last example is the only one which isn't) so my questions concern actual inflected forms. Are reduplicated stative verbs only used for Plural inanimate subjects or can other subjects pronominal affixes occur with them? How about reduplicated active verbs? What are some of the other ways that stative verbs can become active in Dakota? and finally, the examples given in Shaw are mostly CVC roots. The only V final roots given are: /slo/ sloslo' 'be soft and slimy' /so/ so'so 'to cut in thin strips' and she notes that they only occur in reduplicated form (they are also monosyllabic roots). Does this initial stress on active reduplicated verbs only occur on CVC and monosyllabic V final roots? Thanks alot John Kyle From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 25 22:30:56 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:30:56 EDT Subject: Crow-Hidatsa Plural Marking Message-ID: In a message dated 5/24/2006 10:06:52 AM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: Fresh from an illuminating series of comments from John Boyle on Hidatsa, I take it verbs agree with subject and object using one plural slot in the usual Siouan way (but not the usual Hidatsa way)? That's right. And I take it that nouns can be pluralized when arguments of verbs, and not just when predicative or possessed? Yes. Any constraints on when or when not? Plural marking does not occur on the noun when it is followed by the definite article -sh. In general, Crow tends to be parsimonious in marking nouns plural. For example in a sentence like bishke' bahu'iluk 'dogs bark' only the verb has plural marking. This is an area that needs more research! Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Thu May 25 22:56:44 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:56:44 EDT Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: This is a brief update for those who are planning to attend the conference and the following workshop. If you are planning to attend and have not yet contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. I will need to know if you are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles from Billings) on Saturday and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have invited several Crow people to give presentations. I talked to the food service people at Rocky Mountain College today, and if we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a matter of paying by the meal. They want to know exactly how many people will be eating there, and what meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, or $5.60 for breakfast, $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need to notify them by June 8 if we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 they would need to know exactly how many will be there and what meals they will want. Since we will be going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that we would not need food service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking that we may want to plan on getting away from college food for at least some dinners. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Thu May 25 23:28:32 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:28:32 -0700 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <215.16bd8ca4.31a7902c@aol.com> Message-ID: Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. Carolyn _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:57 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SCLC Update This is a brief update for those who are planning to attend the conference and the following workshop. If you are planning to attend and have not yet contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. I will need to know if you are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles from Billings) on Saturday and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have invited several Crow people to give presentations. I talked to the food service people at Rocky Mountain College today, and if we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a matter of paying by the meal. They want to know exactly how many people will be eating there, and what meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, or $5.60 for breakfast, $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need to notify them by June 8 if we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 they would need to know exactly how many will be there and what meals they will want. Since we will be going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that we would not need food service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking that we may want to plan on getting away from college food for at least some dinners. Randy -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/345 - Release Date: 5/22/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/345 - Release Date: 5/22/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 26 02:27:37 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:27:37 -0600 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <000901c68052$f030a030$0202a8c0@Latitude> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the > college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of > course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing > to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. > Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. I'm happy with the combination of Randy's Saturday and Carolyn's general comments. For one thing, I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area, but in general I have no problem with using the college food service for breakfast and lunch, and dinner, too, if that is the most practical approach. Let us know if you discover you need a deposit at any point. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 26 18:20:24 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:20:24 +0100 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <215.16bd8ca4.31a7902c@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Randy As I will have my daughter and granddaughter with me, I will be staying at the Best Western Ponderosa Inn. Usually I prefer the Super 8, but they wanted a swimming pool. However I think they would like to come with us to the Crow Agency on Saturday. I'll confirm with you later about eating on other days. Probably will have lunch with the rest of you Yours Bruce--- Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > This is a brief update for those who are planning to > attend the conference > and the following workshop. If you are planning to > attend and have not yet > contacted me, please let me know as soon as you can. > I will need to know if you > are planning to stay on campus ($24 per night). > > We are planning to go to Crow Agency (sixty miles > from Billings) on Saturday > and meet at Little Big Horn College, and we have > invited several Crow people > to give presentations. > > I talked to the food service people at Rocky > Mountain College today, and if > we choose to eat on campus, it will not be simply a > matter of paying by the > meal. They want to know exactly how many people > will be eating there, and what > meals. The meal prices are $19.65 dollars per day, > or $5.60 for breakfast, > $6.50 for lunch, and $7.55 for dinner. I will need > to notify them by June 8 if > we plan to utilize the food service, and by June 13 > they would need to know > exactly how many will be there and what meals they > will want. Since we will be > going to Crow Agency on Saturday, I told them that > we would not need food > service that day. Any suggestions? I am thinking > that we may want to plan on > getting away from college food for at least some > dinners. > > Randy > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri May 26 18:59:26 2006 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:59:26 EDT Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: In a message dated 5/25/2006 8:45:51 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Fri May 26 23:17:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:17:00 -0600 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <4a0.e2a068.31a8aa0e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The > closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the schedule is at all tight. From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri May 26 23:40:19 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:40:19 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: Randy: Do you know the hours of this one small cafe across the street? I am fine with us all have meals together, but I do have a problem with being oblidged to sign up for a number of meals/ day and pay a set amount for those meals. I do not always care to eat the typical mean or even any meal at all. I like flexibility. Besides, SocSecurity doesnt provide me any flexibility with unnecessary spending. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Rgraczyk at aol.com To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:59 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update In a message dated 5/25/2006 8:45:51 PM Mountain Standard Time, John.Koontz at colorado.edu writes: I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. The closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sat May 27 16:30:35 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:30:35 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: I dont mind walking either. Could we send out for lunch, like pizza, or subway? Or is it set that we all are eating together in the College Cafe? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:17 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update > On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: >> There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. >> The >> closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. > > Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to > eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the > schedule is at all tight. From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Sat May 27 19:10:39 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 12:10:39 -0700 Subject: SCLC Update In-Reply-To: <002f01c681ad$71fdedb0$0102133f@JIMM> Message-ID: I agree with Jim. Sending out to subway is a good idea. Walking is good, too. And of course, every person should feel free to choose to eat wherever he/she likes! My preference is just whatever is easy. Is there a line at noon-time in the cafeteria, Randy? Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:31 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SCLC Update I dont mind walking either. Could we send out for lunch, like pizza, or subway? Or is it set that we all are eating together in the College Cafe? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koontz John E" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:17 PM Subject: Re: SCLC Update > On Fri, 26 May 2006 Rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: >> There is one small cafe/coffee shop across the street from the college. >> The >> closest restaurants and super markets are 6-8 blocks away. > > Well, that confirms Carolyn's judgement. I don't mind a 6-8 block walk to > eat, but I think it might be awkward at lunch in particular if the > schedule is at all tight. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 5/26/2006 From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Sun May 28 04:10:06 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 22:10:06 -0600 Subject: Eating at the SCLC In-Reply-To: <4a0.e2a068.31a8aa0e@aol.com> Message-ID: Randy: Since things are now somewhat uncertain, and it's partly my doing for arguing both sides, let me say that I comit to eating as many breakfasts and lunches in the cafeteria as you find it convenient so sign me up for. (Well, OK, no more than one each per day!) Or if you decide not to use the cafeteria, that's OK, too. Everyone else: May I suggest that anyone who wishes to attend the SCLC include in their registration mail (off list) to Randy a statement as to whether they will avail themselves of the cafeteria plan. It's OK to send paper titles and abstracts, or decisions to attend or not, to the list, and Randy and others should feel free to make announcements via the list, but I'm thinking that we might want to keep the mealtime cat herding off line. My apologies for contributing to that! From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 13:39:57 2006 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 14:39:57 +0100 Subject: Eating at the SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Randy, I think I will probably have breakfast with my family, but have lunch with the rest of you at the college and dinners, I imagine also with the family except if you want to go out somewhere in the evenings, when I could bring them along, as with the Crow Agency trip. Yours Bruce --- Koontz John E wrote: > Randy: > > Since things are now somewhat uncertain, and it's > partly my doing for > arguing both sides, let me say that I comit to > eating as many breakfasts > and lunches in the cafeteria as you find it > convenient so sign me up for. > (Well, OK, no more than one each per day!) Or if > you decide not to use > the cafeteria, that's OK, too. > > Everyone else: > > May I suggest that anyone who wishes to attend the > SCLC include in > their registration mail (off list) to Randy a > statement as to whether they > will avail themselves of the cafeteria plan. > > It's OK to send paper titles and abstracts, or > decisions to attend or not, > to the list, and Randy and others should feel free > to make announcements > via the list, but I'm thinking that we might want to > keep the mealtime cat > herding off line. My apologies for contributing to > that! > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 16:07:52 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:07:52 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: Daily lunch at the College and dinner "out" sounds fine to me too. I'd leave breakfast to individuals. I'm not civil before my morning coffee in any event. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 5/25/2006 9:27 PM To: Siouan List Subject: RE: SCLC Update On Thu, 25 May 2006, Carolyn Quintero wrote: > Why don't we have lunch as a group each day except Sat and Sun at the > college. Then we could do dinner out and all the planning that takes. Of > course each person should do what s/he likes, but I for one would be willing > to have lunch on site, just to get through the day with less bother. > Assuming you could recommend the campus food as reasonably good and healthy. I'm happy with the combination of Randy's Saturday and Carolyn's general comments. For one thing, I'm not aware how easy it is to find walk-in food service in the vicinity of the college, not knowing the area, but in general I have no problem with using the college food service for breakfast and lunch, and dinner, too, if that is the most practical approach. Let us know if you discover you need a deposit at any point. From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 16:42:21 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:42:21 -0500 Subject: SCLC Update Message-ID: How about parking at the College? Will there be a problem on Friday or any other weekday; do we need a permit of some kind? I'll be staying in a motel and presumably driving over to the conference venue. I could also take some passengers out to Crow Agency. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Mon 5/29/2006 11:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SCLC Update Daily lunch at the College and dinner "out" sounds fine to me too. I'd leave breakfast to individuals. I'm not civil before my morning coffee in any event. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 29 20:15:15 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 15:15:15 -0500 Subject: workshop paper Message-ID: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 17:40:42 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:40:42 -0700 Subject: workshop paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue May 30 17:43:33 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:33 -0700 Subject: copies at SCLC Message-ID: Randy, Can you tell us any details about making copies easily for handouts or full papers at the college? Carolyn -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue May 30 18:26:55 2006 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:26:55 -0500 Subject: UNL Omaha language site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha all, The University of Nebraska Omaha language website has moved out of the workshop and on to a more "user friendly" address. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu There are still the unavoidable kinks to work out. However, the cool audio is up. Please take a look and forward comments, suggestions, and concerns to me. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 UmoNhoN ie thethudi Omaha Language Spoken Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue May 30 20:11:07 2006 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:11:07 -0500 Subject: F.Y.I. Re: Pawnee Language Program Message-ID: Excerpts below are from the "Chaticks si Chaticks" XV:1, pp. 8-9, Pawnee Nation Language Deptartment: No wa (Hello) ]ik stit ku From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 30 20:34:10 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:34:10 -0500 Subject: workshop paper Message-ID: Sorry, no, there was no attachment. Microsoft Outlook Web Access at KU (like all such Microsoft mailers) often generates an apparent attachment that contains formatting information and cannot be opened by other mail programs. The file is called "WINMAIL.DAT" and if you try to open it, it just shows garbage. This seems to be what happens when you set your mail program to use Unicode. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 12:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: workshop paper Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob ________________________________ Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 20:40:16 2006 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:40:16 -0700 Subject: workshop paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, okay. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything! : ) That is, except the conference, unfortunately, again. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Sorry, no, there was no attachment. Microsoft Outlook Web Access at KU (like all such Microsoft mailers) often generates an apparent attachment that contains formatting information and cannot be opened by other mail programs. The file is called "WINMAIL.DAT" and if you try to open it, it just shows garbage. This seems to be what happens when you set your mail program to use Unicode. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 12:40 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: workshop paper Bob, I'm not sure if you have an attachment here, although it looks like it. I'm not able to open it though. ?? Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: John, The other workshop topic you mentioned for me besides the template comparisons was the Active/Stative split. I'd be happy to discuss the topic at the meeting, but the paper itself consists of just the paper I did on that topic several years back for SCLC and later SSILA plus the paper on the same split in OVS that I did for the Wayne meeting two Summers ago. Those 2 together cover most of Siouan, and I haven't gotten additional data on the topic from Chiwere, Hidatsa or Mandan to clarify things further. I'll add those languages when this all gets published sooner or later. My main research for this workshop is the template. Why don't you send out a note to all the folks with some linguistics announcing the topics? I think divorcing future workshops from the SCLC will take care of most of the difficulties, but several of us didn't have time or $$$ to handle two trips this round. Bob ________________________________ Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 30 20:38:35 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:38:35 -0500 Subject: UNL Omaha language site Message-ID: Hi Mark, Thanks for the info! I'll have a look. Are you going to the Siouan Conference? There is a comparative grammar workshop scheduled for 2 to 3 days after the conference proper that you might enjoy too. Best, Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 00:04:55 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:04:55 -0600 Subject: Questionnaires for Comparative Workshop Message-ID: Some people are thinking of distributing questionnaires to elicit data that they are finding it hard to locate. As far as I can see, it is OK to post these questionnaires on the list. Also feel free to specify that answers should come to you direct, off list, if that is what you prefer. I can't guarantee that people will follow instructions and it should be clear by now that I have no objections to voluminous data postings. I'm also willing to supply email addresses to those who want to send more directed questionnaires and need contact information. Again, I can't guarantee that people won't post their responses, but it seems much more likely that people will respect your wishes if you write direct and ask them not to. If you write on the list, and ask them not to, they may have fired off the response before they see your restrictions. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 00:24:14 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:24:14 -0600 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Wed May 31 00:58:04 2006 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:58:04 -0700 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I have answered you off list, and BTW something about the Subject line caused this email to be snagged by my Spamblocker. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Koontz John E Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:24 PM To: Siouan List Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 31 14:25:59 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. I think Justin ran across -abi in some of Dorsey's Kansa notes at the NAA just a few days ago. He can clarify that -- I can't remember what speaker was being quoted, but it was undoubtedly a man. BTW we found that Dorsey was doing field work with Kaws as early as 1882 (not 1888 as some of his typescripts are dated). Truth is, however, that we don't have very many instances of anything but the -abe form even from males in the 19th century. Kansa -e and Omaha -i are not a regular vowel correspondence in any event. I'd have to go dig through the files for Quapaw. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Tue 5/30/2006 7:24 PM To: Siouan List Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage And, for that matter, =we in Quapaw. I have been thinking of these forms, which alternate with =bi, =pi, and =wi, respectively, as fusions of the latter with =e, i.e., =be < =b(i)=e, etc. And I have been thinking of =e as a feminine declarative. But I'm not sure, after going back through Carolyn's Osage grammar comments. I thought I remembered some unaccounted for forms with =pa from back when CQ was still writing. But I don't see them now. Looks like everything can be accounted for as =pa or =apa among the positionals (like OP =ma or =ama). Just to clarify my original thinking, I knew that Carolyn worked directly mostly with female speakers of Osage, and that it was the same for Bob in Kaw. Given that, and given that Omaha-Ponca of the 1870s and 1880s has final -a in male illocutionary particles and final -e in female ones, I thought I saw a pattern. Examples - the OP declaratives in Dorsey's OP work are /ha/ (male) and /he/ (female). At present the male form is hau, and the female form is uncertain, though I have one weak attesation of ha. Another possible problem with my initial impression. I have found some examples quoted in the LaFlesche Dictionary that suggest =pi au for the male declarative. I suppose that might be a sort of hyper-correction or conservative version of =p=au, which might be the same as =p=a. Omaha switches to -au in the final of male illocutionary particles in the course of the 1890s or so. Dorsey has some examples of this, and LaFlesche is fairly consistent in writing -o (i.e., au). I'm not sure why -a > -au should have occurred in both OP and Osage about this time. Maybe fashions in writing the final vowel are what really changed? So, is =(dh)e DECLARATIVE definitely not linked to a particular speaker sex? Is Osage =pe still considered most likely to be =pe < =pi + (dh)e? How about Kaw =be and Quapaw =we? From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed May 31 15:53:21 2006 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:53:21 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. Bob, could you clarify this statement? I don't know of any such male (declarative??) form as -abi in Omaha-Ponka. Thanks, Rory From pustetrm at yahoo.com Wed May 31 16:30:36 2006 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:30:36 -0700 Subject: Questionnaires for Comparative Workshop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a questionnaire ready but at least in my case I think it would be better to circulate it after the conference when everybody is more relaxed and there's more time for such things. Discussing the issues raised in the questionnaires on the list, rather than separately, is a very good idea. As far as I can tell from my own work on this, the quality of the output of this project depends crucially on the intensity of intellectual exchange between us Siouanists. My topic is, basically, interesting but without further input from specialists, I'm afraid it won't even yield an acceptable paper. At one point, I was so frustrated that I even thought about changing the topic. Regina Koontz John E wrote: Some people are thinking of distributing questionnaires to elicit data that they are finding it hard to locate. As far as I can see, it is OK to post these questionnaires on the list. Also feel free to specify that answers should come to you direct, off list, if that is what you prefer. I can't guarantee that people will follow instructions and it should be clear by now that I have no objections to voluminous data postings. I'm also willing to supply email addresses to those who want to send more directed questionnaires and need contact information. Again, I can't guarantee that people won't post their responses, but it seems much more likely that people will respect your wishes if you write direct and ask them not to. If you write on the list, and ask them not to, they may have fired off the response before they see your restrictions. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed May 31 19:16:57 2006 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:16:57 -0500 Subject: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about the 3rd person proximate non-continuative verb ending. The only declarative marker I mentioned was Kaw feminine -(y)e (usually just [e] ). This would be the -abi of Omaha -abiama I assume. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Wed 5/31/2006 10:53 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: =be Plural/Proximate in Kaw; =pe Plural/Proximate in Osage > I've always suspected that the male Kaw form was probably -abi, just as in Omaha, and, as you say, that -abe is feminine -abi+(y)e. Bob, could you clarify this statement? I don't know of any such male (declarative??) form as -abi in Omaha-Ponka. Thanks, Rory From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 31 20:48:12 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:48:12 -0600 Subject: F.Y.I. Re: Pawnee Language Program In-Reply-To: <008301c68425$360213c0$ba1f133f@JIMM> Message-ID: This is such an incredible leap backwards, completely without any justification from language learning research, that I want to cry. If the "old Pawnee spelling" is accurately reproduced here, in the three sample words, there are examples of one letter for two different sounds, two spellings for the same sound, simplification of consonant clusters in the direction of English, and writing that totally obscures morpheme boundaries. No one can possibly use this consistently (cf. new spelling -tiks and piks for what is a long vowel in the first word but short in the second, while the same short vowel is written "ee" in the open syllable of ksi). I hope for the sake of the children that they will concentrate on getting them to speak and forget about writing, if this is how they plan to write. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 30 May 2006 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote: > Excerpts below are from the "Chaticks si Chaticks" XV:1, pp. 8-9, Pawnee Nation Language Deptartment: > > No wa (Hello) ]ik stit ku Nation Language Department enters 2006 with a great sense of purpose. > Due to the recent opening of Oo ka sa Child Learning Center, we realize > the revitalization of our language is within our grasp. By the Fall of > 2007 we expect to hear the voices of our young speaking the Pawnee > language throughout our community. Our next step is to allow our Pawnee > Language to find a comfortable place within the midst of our community. > We have began a banner and sign project which we hope to develop around > the entire community. Our first vinyl banner is located in the gym (of > the local high school) and reads, "koo "Black Bear Pride." ...we are implementing a new writing style. For > many decades writing styles have been introduced to our community that > are not easily understood by our local population. ...we need to > develop a writing system tht is easily understood by the community and > helps in the language (Pawnee & English) development of our children. > ... We have adopted a mixed syllabery and phonetic writing system that > is a common sense approach to our languge and which becomes our very > own. NEW WRITING SYSTEM EXAMPLES There are two new symbols in the > writing system. "<" is equal to the old "r", which was supposed to > sound like a d, l, or (Spanish r) depending on the word. "]" is equal > to the old "ts" or "ch". Neither of these sounds exist in English and > that is why a syllabery for these two distinct Pawnee sounds has been > developed. English Current Pawnee Writing New Pawnee Writing Two pitku > pit koo Four kskitiiks skee tiks Eight taw iksapits > This system will allow our children to advance in Pawnee and English > compositon and prepare them for the public school system. > > Oo ka sa Child Learning Center ...provide quality curriculum and > instruction for the three, four and five year olds. ... Four Oo ka sa > teachers are currenly certified as Pawnee Language Teachers, Mastery > Level One. This corresponds to the Pari Pakuru textbook and CD one, > lessons one through five. This semester the teachers are taking Pawnee > Cultural Studies, Pawnee Nation Academy. (Pari Pakuru, Educational > Research Associates, Albuquerque, NM. 1979. [Library of Congress > catalog #79-63051]. Language Course Books, Audio Cassette kits and > Teacher's Guide via Research & Cultural Studies Development Section, > Institute of American Indian Arts, BIA, Santa Fe, NM). > > Pawnee Language After School Class (Grades K-7) This class meets at the > Pawnee Elementary School on Tuesdays and Thursday...from 3:20pm to > 4:30pm. ... We are currently working on learning handgame songs, > Pawnee hymns and a lullabye to perform at the 4th Annual Native American > Youth Language Fair to be held n March (2007)... University of Oklahoma > (Norman). There are lots of games and activities...to learn our colors, > numbers, animals and conversaional phrases.... > > Pawnee Nation Academy, American Indian Studies Department, Pawnee > Language II ...provide Pawnee language at the college level for credit. > ... The focus is on learning conversational Pawnee such as greetings, > responses, and useful everday phrases. The main goal is to go beyond > memorizing words and to start "thinking in Pawnee". Teacher Training > Program The language program is currently in the planning, orgainizing > and creation stage for a teacher training program that will be > accredited by the Pawnee Nation, Northern Oklahoma College (at Tonkawa, > OK), State Regents for Higher Education and the Oklahoma State > Deptartment of Education. > > HUKASA TEACHER RECOGNITION Friday, March 3, 2006 The Hukasa Child > Learning Center works...to train teachers who will asist...language to > three to five year olds. ...have been learning the Pawnee language > since the end of August 2005. ...the teachers voluntarily gave up their > lunch breadk three times a week while the kids were sleeping. This > initial phase of training took place from August until December 2005. > ... Learning the Pawnee language takes a good strong commitment as it > is not an easy language to learn. > > > > > From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed May 31 20:59:11 2006 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:59:11 -0600 Subject: conference paper Message-ID: Sorry, folks, I don't even have the beginning of the paper I had hoped to prepare for the grammar workshop. Some time in the next 3-4 years, I do want to do an inventory of subordination types in Lakota, and I have many notes for such a project, but nothing ready to share. Then would be the time to query those who know the other languages. My casual searches over the years lead me to believe that all the types are there in all the languages, but the individual members of categories shift around. And once again, I deeply regret being unable to be at the conference. It sounds like Randy is living up to his reputation as a super host for this meeting. Best wishes to everyone, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Wed May 31 23:52:00 2006 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:52:00 -0600 Subject: FYI: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now (fwd) Message-ID: A repost from the Linguist List. Note that SILDoulos IPA93 (or rather a modifiable relative of it) is the basis of the "Standard Siouan" fonts I've been circulating. I think IPA93 is SIL's own IPA variant of the underlying SIL Doulos font. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:26:15 -0400 From: linguist at LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: 17.1638, FYI: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now Date: 31-May-2006 From: Mike Cahill < mike_cahill at sil.org > Subject: SIL Not Recommending SILDoulos IPA93 Now Why SIL doesn't recommend SILDoulos IPA93 font any more The world is switching to Unicode, and in the next few years the conversion will be complete. Most linguists have had the experience of receiving documents which use custom fonts which populate their computer screen with annoyingly faceless boxes rather than robust meaningful phonetic characters. Unicode-compliant fonts will largely eliminate this. SIL now has three good Unicode-compliant fonts with phonetic character capability which we commend for your consideration. Charis SIL - possibly the best all around font for linguistic purposes. It is publishing quality, has a complete IPA character set, including stackable diacritics, so an entire manuscript, both text and linguistic examples, may be typed with this. For Windows, MacIntosh, and Linux. http://scripts.sil.org/CharisSILfont Doulos SIL - not the same as ''SIL Doulos!'' SIL is now following the industry standard of putting the company's name at the end. This font resembles Times New Roman and has a complete IPA character set, including stackable diacritics. Bold and italics are not built into the font, so these depend on the automatic formatting of Word or other word processor. http://scripts.sil.org/DoulosSILfont Gentium - this is excellent for general purposes (it was a winner in the Type Directors' Club 2003 Type Design Competition), including Greek fonts. Much but not all of the IPA is included, though the remainder is expected to be added within a year or so. http://scripts.sil.org/FontDownloadsGentium The SIL IPA93 fonts have become commonly used for many conference abstracts and journal submissions, but they are not Unicode and will not be developed further (e.g. ''Latin small letter v with right hook'' representing the labiodental flap will never appear in these fonts). We now recommend Charis SIL or Doulos SIL for such submissions. See http://scripts.sil.org/IPAhome for more discussion. Mike Cahill International Linguistics Coordinator, SIL International