From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 3 00:04:29 2007 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:04:29 -0600 Subject: Policy Statement Message-ID: It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would hope for a more merciful phrasing. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 3 01:32:16 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:32:16 -0500 Subject: Policy Statement Message-ID: Oh dear. I should hope that no one would take offense at such a mild term as 'groupie'. I must admit that I never noticed it. What must they think of me, using the term "Dhegiholics" as I do? I'd suggest that we merely forgive such usage (unless, of course, it's from a minimalist or an optimologist!). (Or a sociolinguistician). (Or . . . ). Kaw pow-wow this weekend in Kaw City, OK.! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 8/2/2007 7:04 PM To: Siouan List Subject: Policy Statement It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would hope for a more merciful phrasing. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Aug 3 03:47:59 2007 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:47:59 -0600 Subject: Policy Statement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sheesh. Who knew? I thought people got over that sort of thing in first year, when you would hear snickers from the back row at any mention of Government and Binding. Can we say 'Siouan wierdos'? Just asking. Mary Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Oh dear. I should hope that no one would take offense at such a mild term as 'groupie'. I must admit that I never noticed it. What must they think of me, using the term "Dhegiholics" as I do? I'd suggest that we merely forgive such usage (unless, of course, it's from a minimalist or an optimologist!). (Or a sociolinguistician). (Or . . . ). > > Kaw pow-wow this weekend in Kaw City, OK.! > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Thu 8/2/2007 7:04 PM > To: Siouan List > Subject: Policy Statement > > > > It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list > referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was > essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will > have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. > > In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally > offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. > Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's > execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would > hope for a more merciful phrasing. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 12 20:42:56 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:42:56 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Aug 13 01:17:29 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:17:29 -0500 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 13 14:54:13 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:54:13 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 13 15:00:16 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:00:16 +0100 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Catherine: University of Nebraska Press? I agree with the others, an Osage dictionary would be a boon too. Anthony >>> "Catherine Rudin" 08/13/07 3:54 pm >>> Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From boris at terracom.net Mon Aug 13 15:06:34 2007 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:06:34 -0500 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon Aug 13 15:32:06 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:06 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: MessageCongrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; háakoN ówoNe che dháaliN s^káaghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:07:11 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <004601c7ddbf$21936bb0$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here? You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me! I'd be very grateful. When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; háakoN ówoNe che dháaliN s^káaghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:boris at terracom.net"Alan Knutson To: HYPERLINK "mailto:siouan at lists.colorado.edu"siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu"owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: HYPERLINK "mailto:siouan at lists.colorado.edu"siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:08:35 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:08:35 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <002501c7ddbb$8a41cf20$a76e0fcc@alscom> Message-ID: thanks for the message. The dictionary is due out in the next few months. In the final throes of editing now. Carolyn Quintero. Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Knutson Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:11:33 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:11:33 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <46C08010020000A60003FE0A@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: To order the Osage Grammar book recently reviewed: University of Nebraska Press, order toll-free 800 755 1105. Fax orders only 800 526 2617. email: pressmail at unl.edu. Online catalog: www.nebraskapress.unl.edu. Also Amazon.com Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:00 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Dear Catherine: University of Nebraska Press? I agree with the others, an Osage dictionary would be a boon too. Anthony >>> "Catherine Rudin" 08/13/07 3:54 pm >>> Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:39:39 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:39:39 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carolyn: I have a PDF of the review and tried to send it, but got blocked by your spam filter. If you add my email address to your unblock list, I can send it to you. best, David Costa From: "Carolyn Quintero" Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Osage. Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here?  You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me!  I'd be very grateful.  When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; háakoN ówoNe che dháaliN s^káaghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 21:23:52 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:23:52 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have it now, David, thanks so much. I appreciate your help. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:40 AM To: siouan Subject: Osage. Carolyn: I have a PDF of the review and tried to send it, but got blocked by your spam filter. If you add my email address to your unblock list, I can send it to you. best, David Costa From: "Carolyn Quintero" Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Osage. Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here? You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me! I'd be very grateful. When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; háakoN ówoNe che dháaliN s^káaghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geocultural at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:28:10 2007 From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:28:10 +0700 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe’s 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. “At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River.” In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, “Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37° 45’. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north.” (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 16 23:27:07 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:27:07 -0500 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37° 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From geocultural at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 12:45:08 2007 From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:45:08 +0800 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: Thanks. Do you have any thoughts about the possibility of Emamoueta/Emam8eta shown on Marquette and Jolliet maps meaning Imaha to-wo ? (To-wo or ton-won representing the Osage word for village.) Robert ----- Original Message ---- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27:07 PM Subject: RE: an Osage Imaha I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37° 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 17 16:57:31 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:57:31 -0500 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: I can't make head or tail out of Emam8eta, but it doesn't look very Siouan at all. And several of the villages in that area are clearly not Siouan villages. A couple of those early maps include the Tunican name papicaha/pacaha and a variant of Coroa. I don't have the impression that the Osages were generally that far SE. (But a person can go nuts trying to figure out those early maps!) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Fri 8/17/2007 7:45 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: an Osage Imaha Thanks. Do you have any thoughts about the possibility of Emamoueta/Emam8eta shown on Marquette and Jolliet maps meaning Imaha to-wo ? (To-wo or ton-won representing the Osage word for village.) Robert ----- Original Message ---- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27:07 PM Subject: RE: an Osage Imaha I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37° 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 21 01:21:38 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:21:38 -0500 Subject: MALC 2007. Final call. Message-ID: All, I think tomorrow is the final deadline for MALC abstracts, so if you would like to present a Siouan paper, this is about the last chance. Abstracts go to malc at ku.edu. Bob Full Title: Mid America Linguistics Conference Short Title: MALC Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA Start Date: 26-Oct-2007 - 28-Oct-2007 Contact: Sara Rosen Meeting Email: rosen at ku.edu Meeting URL: http://www.linguistics.ku.edu Meeting Description: The Department of Linguistics at the University of Kansas is pleased to announce that it will be hosting the 2007 Mid-America Linguistics Conference (MALC). The conference will take place on October 26-28 2007 at the University of Kansas campus in Lawrence. We invite abstracts in all areas of linguistics, including (but not restricted to) phonology, phonetics, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, historical linguistics, sociolinguistics, neurolinguistics, and psycholinguistics. Interdisciplinary papers are more then welcome. This year's meeting will feature special interest sessions on Psycho/Neurolinguistics, Endangered Languages, and/or African Languages. Each presentation will be allowed 20 minutes plus 10 minutes for discussion. You may also submit to the poster session. Linguistic Subfield: General Linguistics LL Issue: 18.1433 Mid America Linguistics Conference Call for Papers Call Deadline: 01-Aug-2007 * * I think extended until 22 August 2007 (RLR) Please send abstracts of maximum 500 words in Word or PDF format to Mircea Sauciuc (mcs at ku.edu) or Sara Rosen (rosen at ku.edu). Your name, affiliation, mailing address and email address should be included in the body of the email, in addition to whether you are submitting to a poster or presentation session. Acceptance notification will go out by early September. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 23 13:01:39 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:01:39 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was “Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.” It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Aug 23 13:24:56 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:24:56 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was “Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.” It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 23 13:55:00 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:55:00 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: <000901c7e589$0166e7f0$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: I'm tempted toward Ponca too. I agree with Justin that "re sha" might involve dhe'ze, 'tongue'. But I would guess that "Box ka" would be Wa'x^e akHa', with the initial w being heard as b, as in the wuhu' vs. bug^u' alternation. The final part would probably be another akHa': Box ka re sha hash ta ka Wa'x^e akHa' dhe'ze (i)(a)hasht()(a) akHa' The whiteman tongue ('one', 'honest' ?) the This would leave us with the -hasht- part still unresolved, and lacking anything about curly hair. Justin, what's the word for 'whiteman' in Kaw? Rory "Justin McBride" To Sent by: owner-siouan at list cc s.colorado.edu Subject Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry 08/23/2007 08:24 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" < jcarter at nebraskahistory.org> To 08/22/2007 04:16 PM "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was “Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.” It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pic31934.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1255 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Aug 23 14:20:47 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:20:47 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fairly sure this name is in the Pawnee language. I doubt, very seriously, that it's Ponca. Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Good Morning All, > I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State > Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? > Many thanks, > Uthixide > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on > 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- > *"John Carter" * > > 08/22/2007 04:16 PM > > > To > "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" > cc > > Subject > Another question > > > > > > > > Mark > I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha > who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store > on Farnam Street. > > He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka > re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with > one tongue.” I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee > and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if > that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was > “Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of > Marlboros.” It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I > thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks, John > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 23 16:25:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:25:10 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: I can't add much to what's already been said, except that I think the letter X really has to be read as [ks]. Siouan *ks clusters all reduce to [s] or [ss] in Dhegiha languages. And it's highly unlikely that Julius Meyer would have known to use X for a fricative sound. If he knew Yiddish, Polish or Czech, he might have used CH, but not X. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Thu 8/23/2007 9:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Fairly sure this name is in the Pawnee language. I doubt, very seriously, that it's Ponca. Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as "Curly haired white man with one tongue." I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was "Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros." It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 23 22:36:58 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” Well It looks like Rory may be to deciphering it for Ponca. Now for a Pawnee consideration, 1st thing, ~ Tsahriks Taka would be "person white"; ásku ("one", a number); usú (hair); hat-u (tongue...I think); Sorry, I dont recall a word for "curly". A white haired, or white headed person would be most likely rendered as Paks taka. A typical Pawnee gramatical sentence with the above English rendering would look somewhat like: man white (or head white) + he + (evidential makrker) + his + hair - currIy + has he + (e.m.) + tongue one + with + speak And that is based on the said translation of the said name. As it looks to my best guess, it says: Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” Paks ka resar(u) tsariks taka head on leader person white = Primary leader of the white people. And the above rendering is factious, because such a thought would more likely be rendered as: Tsariks taka witirararaaskukitawiu Tsariks taka wi + ti ra + rar + asku + kitawi + u white people (evidential) + he who + (pluralizer) + the one + is leading + (completed action marker) Well, it has been nice to remember some Pawnee again, and give a whirl at cracking yet another undeciphered mysterious name again. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry I'm tempted toward Ponca too. I agree with Justin that "re sha" might involve dhe'ze, 'tongue'. But I would guess that "Box ka" would be Wa'x^e akHa', with the initial w being heard as b, as in the wuhu' vs. bug^u' alternation. The final part would probably be another akHa': Box ka re sha hash ta ka Wa'x^e akHa' dhe'ze (i)(a)hasht()(a) akHa' The whiteman tongue ('one', 'honest' ?) the This would leave us with the -hasht- part still unresolved, and lacking anything about curly hair. Justin, what's the word for 'whiteman' in Kaw? Rory "Justin McBride" "Justin McBride" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/23/2007 08:24 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as “Curly haired white man with one tongue.” I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was “Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.” It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: 8/22/2007 9:05 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 24 01:20:53 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:20:53 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can't add much to what's already been said, except that I think the letter X really has to be read as [ks]. Siouan *ks clusters all reduce to [s] or [ss] in Dhegiha languages. And it's highly unlikely that Julius Meyer would have known to use X for a fricative sound. If he knew Yiddish, Polish or Czech, he might have used CH, but not X. Yeah, that's probably true, and would favor Justin's suggestion of [something]-ska, rather than [something]-akHa', supposing it is from Ponca. There's also the o in Box, which might suggest [oN] rather than [a]. Rolling Box ka around in my head using those readings sounds more like ppoN'kka-ska than anything else. There's a fairly common female name PoN'ka-soN, but I'm not seeing a PoN'ka-ska anywhere in the Fletcher & La Flesche name lists. The Nebraska State Historical Society website on Julius Meyer says that he is reputed to have spoken six *Indian* languages, not just six languages. He was born in Prussia in 1839, came to Omaha in 1867, developed acquainances with Plains Indians, and served as an interpreter for General George Crook. On other sites, there are a couple of pictures of his tobacco store from 1878, one with an awning printed in giant letters: Julius Meyer: Indian Interpreter. (A couple of Jewish-partisan blog sites from a few years ago claim that he came to Omaha in 1864 at the age of 13 or 14.) There are photos of him in Indian garb with some mainly Sioux delegations from the 1870s before that. He was the local specialist in Chinese and Japanese matters, as well as Indians. He seems to have started the Omaha Chess Club in 1879, and there is a picture of three Indians from 1883 that he apparently took. Oddly, I can't seem to find a date for his death. Although I think Bob is probably right about x being read as [ks], I would like to ask if anyone knows where the x convention for the velar fricative originated. Dorsey used it for the voiced or muted phoneme, and Fletcher and La Flesche collapsed both into x. Is this coming from an education in Greek? What about Russian? Doesn't it use an X for the velar fricative? (Sorry, I'm rusty on Cyrillic!) And what is known about Dorsey's introductory education in OP? Did he have any contact with Meyer? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 24 01:23:28 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:23:28 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Jimm! That's a great post, hitting the other possibility. I didn't know you knew Pawnee! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 24 16:05:23 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Good job on tracking down Meyer. I'd have suggested Czech since there were so many Czech immigrants (whole villages in a couple of cases apparently) in N.E. and N. Central KS and probably adjacent Nebraska. Back in the '70's I escorted a visiting prof. from Prague around some of these areas N. of Mayetta, KS collecting Czech names from tombstones. > Although I think Bob is probably right about x being read as [ks], I would like to ask if anyone knows where the x convention for the velar fricative originated. Yes, I'm pretty sure it IS Greek. When they ran out of Roman letters for phonetic symbols, they turned to Greek first. Cyrillic gets it from Greek also, but Cyrillic adopted variants of a couple of Hebrew letters too. Given Jimm's information, I'm wondering of Meyer might have made up his own Pawnee name using his only-partly-correct grammar. Bob From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 02:26:54 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:26:54 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "náhje (heart)" and udán (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^úndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + udán + wi] (I..., nat^úhadan; you..., nat^úradan; we..., hínnat^údanwi; they..., nat^údanñe). Nat^úhindañe ke, I am pitied. Nat^úrigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 12:15:39 2007 From: wipamankere at hotmail.com (Iren Hartmann) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:15:39 +0200 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Jimm, I'm currently working on the HocakLex. Some of these old Radin forms you found are not quite complete. There are two different forms of this verb in Hocank: naac hoja & naac hiroja, the former, however, seems to be the more frequently used one. It is inflected as follows: singular plural 1st person Actor exclusive naac waaja /naac hoja/ naac waajawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac huuja /naac hi-hoja/ (dual) naac huujawi /naac hi-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Actor naac horaja /naac hoja/ naac horajawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Actor naac hooja naac hoojaire naac hooja-ire singular plural 1st person Undergoer exclusive naac huuja /naac hoja/ naac huujawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac waagoja /naac waaga-hoja/ (dual) naac waagojawi /naac waaga-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Undergoer naac honija /naac hoja/ naac honijawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Undergoer naac hooja naac wooja /naac wa-hoja/ The following sentences were found in the example database and text corpus: Naac wowaaja. /naac wa-hoja/ OBJ.3PL-<1E.A>take.pity.on 'I blessed them.' Naac horakija? / naac_hoja/ <2.A-RFL>take.pity.on 'Did you feel sorry for yourself?' Naac huugijaiine. /naac_hoja-ire/ <1E.U-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-SBJ.3PL 'They took pity on me/blessed me.' Zige naac huunagijawi /zige naac_ hoja-wi / again <1E.U-2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-PL 'You blessed us again.' Naac wooragijagi niigíta. /naac_wa-hoja-gi nii-gita/ OBJ.3PL-<2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-TOP 1&2-ask.from 'I ask you to bless them.' If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+udán +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. However, it looks like Ioway-Otoe inflects this verb differently. The 1st person actor (inclusive?) inflection seems to be prefixed to natc (as in: [hínnat^údanwi]), whereas in Hocank it is prefixed to hoja. Maybe the complete list of Hocank forms is of help to you anyway? Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 14:43:52 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:43:52 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank You, Iren, for your detailed reply, which I am printing out for future reference. You have validated my thoughts that the citation for 3PP, [hínnat^údanwi] is indeed incorrect. And further, that my proposed proper conjugation for 3PP is indeed the appropriate one. If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+udán +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. I have found instances of this pattern of infixed conjugation of compound word or word phrases have changed during the usage of late Elders, who spoke IOM as their first language. Evidence suggest that the infixed conjugations were historical, and continue appropriate usage unto these contemporary times. However, as I say, I've found some exceptions which I discussed with Bob and John in the past. They suggested that when I come upon such exceptions, to make note of them along with the actual citation of the speaker. I do not attempt any explanation of found exceptions, be it the influence of English, or natural linguistic evolution. Thank you again for your thorough and detailed reply. Indeed the complete Hochank listing of forms has been a help. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Iren Hartmann To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: HAVE PITY Jimm, I'm currently working on the HocakLex. Some of these old Radin forms you found are not quite complete. There are two different forms of this verb in Hocank: naac hoja & naac hiroja, the former, however, seems to be the more frequently used one. It is inflected as follows: singular plural 1st person Actor exclusive naac waaja /naac hoja/ naac waajawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac huuja /naac hi-hoja/ (dual) naac huujawi /naac hi-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Actor naac horaja /naac hoja/ naac horajawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Actor naac hooja naac hoojaire naac hooja-ire singular plural 1st person Undergoer exclusive naac huuja /naac hoja/ naac huujawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac waagoja /naac waaga-hoja/ (dual) naac waagojawi /naac waaga-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Undergoer naac honija /naac hoja/ naac honijawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Undergoer naac hooja naac wooja /naac wa-hoja/ The following sentences were found in the example database and text corpus: Naac wowaaja. /naac wa-hoja/ OBJ.3PL-<1E.A>take.pity.on 'I blessed them.' Naac horakija? / naac_hoja/ <2.A-RFL>take.pity.on 'Did you feel sorry for yourself?' Naac huugijaiine. /naac_hoja-ire/ <1E.U-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-SBJ.3PL 'They took pity on me/blessed me.' Zige naac huunagijawi /zige naac_ hoja-wi / again <1E.U-2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-PL 'You blessed us again.' Naac wooragijagi niigíta. /naac_wa-hoja-gi nii-gita/ OBJ.3PL-<2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-TOP 1&2-ask.from 'I ask you to bless them.' If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+udán +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. However, it looks like Ioway-Otoe inflects this verb differently. The 1st person actor (inclusive?) inflection seems to be prefixed to natc (as in: [hínnat^údanwi]), whereas in Hocank it is prefixed to hoja. Maybe the complete list of Hocank forms is of help to you anyway? Best, Iren ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.12/979 - Release Date: 8/29/2007 8:21 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 31 15:12:53 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:12:53 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Jimm, I'm not sure about the 3rd pl., but I'm wondering if the stem, /?udoN/, might not be more closely related to the Omaha and Ponca udoN that has more of a meaning like 'good', and in Kaw, 'good' or 'honorable'. In Kansa and Osage the verb often translated 'have pity' is used with the sense of 'bless' in prayers. But the root is different, /k?e/ with a causative. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Thu 8/30/2007 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: HAVE PITY Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "náhje (heart)" and udán (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^úndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + udán + wi] (I..., nat^úhadan; you..., nat^úradan; we..., hínnat^údanwi; they..., nat^údanñe). Nat^úhindañe ke, I am pitied. Nat^úrigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 15:53:02 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:53:02 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: I had already checked the root, which is -daN (move; press) and with the insep. prep "u- (in, into, within) does give: udáN (pressed towards). I also noted the root in the word awádaN (press on, press down on). An application of this word would be as in: pressing down on one's hair with the hand, OR pressing down on s.t. with the foot. And yes, the word is used as you say in the context of "bless" in prayer invocations and ceremonial use. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RE: HAVE PITY Jimm, I'm not sure about the 3rd pl., but I'm wondering if the stem, /?udoN/, might not be more closely related to the Omaha and Ponca udoN that has more of a meaning like 'good', and in Kaw, 'good' or 'honorable'. In Kansa and Osage the verb often translated 'have pity' is used with the sense of 'bless' in prayers. But the root is different, /k?e/ with a causative. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Thu 8/30/2007 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: HAVE PITY Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "náhje (heart)" and udán (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^úndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + udán + wi] (I..., nat^úhadan; you..., nat^úradan; we..., hínnat^údanwi; they..., nat^údanñe). Nat^úhindañe ke, I am pitied. Nat^úrigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/981 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 6:13 AM From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Fri Aug 3 00:04:29 2007 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:04:29 -0600 Subject: Policy Statement Message-ID: It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would hope for a more merciful phrasing. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 3 01:32:16 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:32:16 -0500 Subject: Policy Statement Message-ID: Oh dear. I should hope that no one would take offense at such a mild term as 'groupie'. I must admit that I never noticed it. What must they think of me, using the term "Dhegiholics" as I do? I'd suggest that we merely forgive such usage (unless, of course, it's from a minimalist or an optimologist!). (Or a sociolinguistician). (Or . . . ). Kaw pow-wow this weekend in Kaw City, OK.! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E Sent: Thu 8/2/2007 7:04 PM To: Siouan List Subject: Policy Statement It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would hope for a more merciful phrasing. John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From mary.marino at usask.ca Fri Aug 3 03:47:59 2007 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Marino) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:47:59 -0600 Subject: Policy Statement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sheesh. Who knew? I thought people got over that sort of thing in first year, when you would hear snickers from the back row at any mention of Government and Binding. Can we say 'Siouan wierdos'? Just asking. Mary Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Oh dear. I should hope that no one would take offense at such a mild term as 'groupie'. I must admit that I never noticed it. What must they think of me, using the term "Dhegiholics" as I do? I'd suggest that we merely forgive such usage (unless, of course, it's from a minimalist or an optimologist!). (Or a sociolinguistician). (Or . . . ). > > Kaw pow-wow this weekend in Kaw City, OK.! > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Koontz John E > Sent: Thu 8/2/2007 7:04 PM > To: Siouan List > Subject: Policy Statement > > > > It has been pointed out to me that one of the posters on this list > referred to someone else as a Siouan Groupie. I believe this was > essentially an unfortunate variant on Siouan List member. However, I will > have to insist that this form of reference be avoided in the future. > > In general, if I believed anyone was being deliberately and personally > offensive I would be forced to delete the offender from the list. > Relevant criticisms which are obvious or defensible, such as "Koontz's > execrable ear," will be considered on a case by case basis, though I would > hope for a more merciful phrasing. > > John E. Koontz > http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz > > > From rankin at ku.edu Sun Aug 12 20:42:56 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:42:56 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Aug 13 01:17:29 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:17:29 -0500 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Aug 13 14:54:13 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:54:13 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Aug 13 15:00:16 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:00:16 +0100 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Catherine: University of Nebraska Press? I agree with the others, an Osage dictionary would be a boon too. Anthony >>> "Catherine Rudin" 08/13/07 3:54 pm >>> Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From boris at terracom.net Mon Aug 13 15:06:34 2007 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:06:34 -0500 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Mon Aug 13 15:32:06 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:06 -0500 Subject: Osage. Message-ID: MessageCongrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; h?akoN ?woNe che dh?aliN s^k?aghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:07:11 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <004601c7ddbf$21936bb0$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here? You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me! I'd be very grateful. When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; h?akoN ?woNe che dh?aliN s^k?aghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:boris at terracom.net"Alan Knutson To: HYPERLINK "mailto:siouan at lists.colorado.edu"siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu"owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: HYPERLINK "mailto:siouan at lists.colorado.edu"siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:08:35 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:08:35 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <002501c7ddbb$8a41cf20$a76e0fcc@alscom> Message-ID: thanks for the message. The dictionary is due out in the next few months. In the final throes of editing now. Carolyn Quintero. Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Knutson Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:07 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:11:33 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:11:33 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: <46C08010020000A60003FE0A@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: To order the Osage Grammar book recently reviewed: University of Nebraska Press, order toll-free 800 755 1105. Fax orders only 800 526 2617. email: pressmail at unl.edu. Online catalog: www.nebraskapress.unl.edu. Also Amazon.com Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:00 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Dear Catherine: University of Nebraska Press? I agree with the others, an Osage dictionary would be a boon too. Anthony >>> "Catherine Rudin" 08/13/07 3:54 pm >>> Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 16:39:39 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:39:39 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carolyn: I have a PDF of the review and tried to send it, but got blocked by your spam filter. If you add my email address to your unblock list, I can send it to you. best, David Costa From: "Carolyn Quintero" Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Osage. Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here?? You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me!? I'd be very grateful.? When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; h?akoN ?woNe che dh?aliN s^k?aghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 21:23:52 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:23:52 -0700 Subject: Osage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have it now, David, thanks so much. I appreciate your help. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:40 AM To: siouan Subject: Osage. Carolyn: I have a PDF of the review and tried to send it, but got blocked by your spam filter. If you add my email address to your unblock list, I can send it to you. best, David Costa From: "Carolyn Quintero" Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:11 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Osage. Justin, Thanks so much! As a trusted colleague and friend, would you like to save me an exploratory trip to an as-yet unvisited university here? You could do so by copying the IJAL article I'm hearing about and mailing it to me! I'd be very grateful. When I've tried to get IJAL article in the past off the internet, I would have had to subscribe to the entire year's journals. This address is good: Carolyn Quintero, PhD 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Justin McBride Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Congrats, Carolyn! I guess the world is beginning to catch on to what some of us have known firsthand for several years now; h?akoN ?woNe che dh?aliN s^k?aghe. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Knutson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Osage. It is available on Amazon. Yes Carolyn, a good review, could have been longer, when is the dictionary due? Alan K -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Osage. Where can I buy a copy? (of the book, not the review) I could go look it up, but this is easier, and maybe others will be interested too. Catherine >>> goodtracks at peoplepc.com 8/12/2007 8:17 PM >>> Yes Congrats Carolyn. A positive review in IJAL is an acheivement! jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Osage. Congratulations to Carolyn Quintero on the very positive review of her Osage Grammar in the current IJAL! We hope the dictionary will soon follow. Best, Bob No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geocultural at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 04:28:10 2007 From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:28:10 +0700 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe?s 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. ?At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River.? In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, ?Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37? 45?. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north.? (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 16 23:27:07 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:27:07 -0500 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37? 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. From geocultural at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 12:45:08 2007 From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:45:08 +0800 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: Thanks. Do you have any thoughts about the possibility of Emamoueta/Emam8eta shown on Marquette and Jolliet maps meaning Imaha to-wo ? (To-wo or ton-won representing the Osage word for village.) Robert ----- Original Message ---- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27:07 PM Subject: RE: an Osage Imaha I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37? 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 17 16:57:31 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:57:31 -0500 Subject: an Osage Imaha Message-ID: I can't make head or tail out of Emam8eta, but it doesn't look very Siouan at all. And several of the villages in that area are clearly not Siouan villages. A couple of those early maps include the Tunican name papicaha/pacaha and a variant of Coroa. I don't have the impression that the Osages were generally that far SE. (But a person can go nuts trying to figure out those early maps!) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Fri 8/17/2007 7:45 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: an Osage Imaha Thanks. Do you have any thoughts about the possibility of Emamoueta/Emam8eta shown on Marquette and Jolliet maps meaning Imaha to-wo ? (To-wo or ton-won representing the Osage word for village.) Robert ----- Original Message ---- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27:07 PM Subject: RE: an Osage Imaha I think about the only thing I could add to this is that "Imaha" means "toward the upstream". So if there is any possibility of locating this settlement in an upstream direction from the main body of Osages, then that might help confirm the name. I supppose it could refer to wind direction as well as water direction too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Robert Myers Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 11:28 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; mhoffma at comp.uark.edu Subject: an Osage Imaha The following is apparently another reference to "Imaha". This is excerpted from the 1721 manuscript account of Le Gac, one of the directors of the Company of the Indies. The company employed La Harpe to explore the Arkansas River tribes in eastern Oklahoma. "Noms des nations situees tant au Nord qui nord nord ouest qui sont jusqu'au Panihouasas [Paniassa] au dessus desprecedens" "Les Thouacanne [Tawakoni], Les Iriscario [Yscani], Les Cancey [Plains Apache], Les Chite?, Les Youanne [Yojuane], Les Canouches [Ahuache/Panimaha?], et les Hemaan qu'on nomme Ozage ville separ'ee des autres Ozages." I understand this to mean that "Hemaan" is the name of an Osage village separated from the other Osage. I wonder if Hemaan is a another version of "Imaha". (Omaha and Quapaw examples are also noted.) In La Harpe's 1719 journal of his journey from the Red River to the Arkansas River, he reached the Touacara [Tawakoni] nation. "At a musket shot from their habitation we crossed a beautiful stream, surrounded by a clear forest, above which are the villages situated upon hillocks, along the southwest branch of the Alcansas River." In a footnote to the manuscript copy, the French geographer De Beaurain says, "Which they called Imaham, at the latitude of 37? 45'. Situated from the Nassonites eighty-nine leagues in a straight line to the north." (Margry) Eighteenth-century printed and manuscript maps deriving from La Harpe's trip note the village visited on the Arkansas River as "Imaha" or "Imahan". Speculation: Maps based on the 1670's Marquette/Jolliett expedition note the Emamoueta/Emam8eta on the Arkansas River. Maps from the next decade based on LaSalle show the Mahrout which may or may not be the same people. How likely is it that this was a version of "Imaha ton-won" ("Imaha town" in Osage)? Could this be the origin of the name Mento? Tixler, a French traveler among the Osage in the early 1800's noted that the "Pani Mohawks" used to be Osage but lost their language. Robert Myers Champaign, Illinois ________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 21 01:21:38 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:21:38 -0500 Subject: MALC 2007. Final call. Message-ID: All, I think tomorrow is the final deadline for MALC abstracts, so if you would like to present a Siouan paper, this is about the last chance. Abstracts go to malc at ku.edu. Bob Full Title: Mid America Linguistics Conference Short Title: MALC Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA Start Date: 26-Oct-2007 - 28-Oct-2007 Contact: Sara Rosen Meeting Email: rosen at ku.edu Meeting URL: http://www.linguistics.ku.edu Meeting Description: The Department of Linguistics at the University of Kansas is pleased to announce that it will be hosting the 2007 Mid-America Linguistics Conference (MALC). The conference will take place on October 26-28 2007 at the University of Kansas campus in Lawrence. We invite abstracts in all areas of linguistics, including (but not restricted to) phonology, phonetics, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, historical linguistics, sociolinguistics, neurolinguistics, and psycholinguistics. Interdisciplinary papers are more then welcome. This year's meeting will feature special interest sessions on Psycho/Neurolinguistics, Endangered Languages, and/or African Languages. Each presentation will be allowed 20 minutes plus 10 minutes for discussion. You may also submit to the poster session. Linguistic Subfield: General Linguistics LL Issue: 18.1433 Mid America Linguistics Conference Call for Papers Call Deadline: 01-Aug-2007 * * I think extended until 22 August 2007 (RLR) Please send abstracts of maximum 500 words in Word or PDF format to Mircea Sauciuc (mcs at ku.edu) or Sara Rosen (rosen at ku.edu). Your name, affiliation, mailing address and email address should be included in the body of the email, in addition to whether you are submitting to a poster or presentation session. Acceptance notification will go out by early September. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 23 13:01:39 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:01:39 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was ?Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.? It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Aug 23 13:24:56 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:24:56 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was ?Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.? It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Aug 23 13:55:00 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:55:00 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: <000901c7e589$0166e7f0$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: I'm tempted toward Ponca too. I agree with Justin that "re sha" might involve dhe'ze, 'tongue'. But I would guess that "Box ka" would be Wa'x^e akHa', with the initial w being heard as b, as in the wuhu' vs. bug^u' alternation. The final part would probably be another akHa': Box ka re sha hash ta ka Wa'x^e akHa' dhe'ze (i)(a)hasht()(a) akHa' The whiteman tongue ('one', 'honest' ?) the This would leave us with the -hasht- part still unresolved, and lacking anything about curly hair. Justin, what's the word for 'whiteman' in Kaw? Rory "Justin McBride" To Sent by: owner-siouan at list cc s.colorado.edu Subject Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry 08/23/2007 08:24 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colo rado.edu Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" < jcarter at nebraskahistory.org> To 08/22/2007 04:16 PM "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was ?Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.? It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pic31934.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1255 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Aug 23 14:20:47 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:20:47 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fairly sure this name is in the Pawnee language. I doubt, very seriously, that it's Ponca. Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Good Morning All, > I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State > Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? > Many thanks, > Uthixide > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on > 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- > *"John Carter" * > > 08/22/2007 04:16 PM > > > To > "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" > cc > > Subject > Another question > > > > > > > > Mark > I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha > who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store > on Farnam Street. > > He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka > re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with > one tongue.? I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee > and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if > that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was > ?Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of > Marlboros.? It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I > thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks, John > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 23 16:25:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:25:10 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: I can't add much to what's already been said, except that I think the letter X really has to be read as [ks]. Siouan *ks clusters all reduce to [s] or [ss] in Dhegiha languages. And it's highly unlikely that Julius Meyer would have known to use X for a fricative sound. If he knew Yiddish, Polish or Czech, he might have used CH, but not X. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Thu 8/23/2007 9:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Fairly sure this name is in the Pawnee language. I doubt, very seriously, that it's Ponca. Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as "Curly haired white man with one tongue." I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was "Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros." It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 23 22:36:58 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? Well It looks like Rory may be to deciphering it for Ponca. Now for a Pawnee consideration, 1st thing, ~ Tsahriks Taka would be "person white"; ?sku ("one", a number); us? (hair); hat-u (tongue...I think); Sorry, I dont recall a word for "curly". A white haired, or white headed person would be most likely rendered as Paks taka. A typical Pawnee gramatical sentence with the above English rendering would look somewhat like: man white (or head white) + he + (evidential makrker) + his + hair - currIy + has he + (e.m.) + tongue one + with + speak And that is based on the said translation of the said name. As it looks to my best guess, it says: Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? Paks ka resar(u) tsariks taka head on leader person white = Primary leader of the white people. And the above rendering is factious, because such a thought would more likely be rendered as: Tsariks taka witirararaaskukitawiu Tsariks taka wi + ti ra + rar + asku + kitawi + u white people (evidential) + he who + (pluralizer) + the one + is leading + (completed action marker) Well, it has been nice to remember some Pawnee again, and give a whirl at cracking yet another undeciphered mysterious name again. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry I'm tempted toward Ponca too. I agree with Justin that "re sha" might involve dhe'ze, 'tongue'. But I would guess that "Box ka" would be Wa'x^e akHa', with the initial w being heard as b, as in the wuhu' vs. bug^u' alternation. The final part would probably be another akHa': Box ka re sha hash ta ka Wa'x^e akHa' dhe'ze (i)(a)hasht()(a) akHa' The whiteman tongue ('one', 'honest' ?) the This would leave us with the -hasht- part still unresolved, and lacking anything about curly hair. Justin, what's the word for 'whiteman' in Kaw? Rory "Justin McBride" "Justin McBride" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 08/23/2007 08:24 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Re: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Mark, I can vaguely imagine the "Box ka re sha" part being ppah(i) ska dheze, 'white hair, tongue...,' and can even imagine "hash ta ka" containing the word ha, 'skin,' possibly in reference to skin color. I just can't place the remaining shtege/shteke/xtege/xteke part, and don't see anything like unto a Kaw word for 'curly.' But that CteCe bit does look kinda Siouan, no? -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Good Morning All, I received this inquiry from John Carter at the Nebraska State Historical Society. Any speculations on this name? Many thanks, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/23/2007 07:57 AM ----- "John Carter" 08/22/2007 04:16 PM To "Mark Awakuni-Sweltand" cc Subject Another question Mark I am working on some stuff on Julius Meyer, the German Jew in Omaha who claimed to speak six languages and opened the Indian goods store on Farnam Street. He claimed to have been given and Indian name, which he spelled Box ka re sha hash ta ka, which he translated as ?Curly haired white man with one tongue.? I have two accounts, one that he got it from the Pawnee and one that he got if from the Ponca. I asked James Riding In if that name made sense to him: he thought it more likely that it was ?Curly haired white dude who that a buffalo robe was worth a carton of Marlboros.? It does look like one of those Pawnee jawbreakers but I thought I would just shoot it across your bow for an opinion. Thoughts? Thanks, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: 8/22/2007 9:05 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 24 01:20:53 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:20:53 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I can't add much to what's already been said, except that I think the letter X really has to be read as [ks]. Siouan *ks clusters all reduce to [s] or [ss] in Dhegiha languages. And it's highly unlikely that Julius Meyer would have known to use X for a fricative sound. If he knew Yiddish, Polish or Czech, he might have used CH, but not X. Yeah, that's probably true, and would favor Justin's suggestion of [something]-ska, rather than [something]-akHa', supposing it is from Ponca. There's also the o in Box, which might suggest [oN] rather than [a]. Rolling Box ka around in my head using those readings sounds more like ppoN'kka-ska than anything else. There's a fairly common female name PoN'ka-soN, but I'm not seeing a PoN'ka-ska anywhere in the Fletcher & La Flesche name lists. The Nebraska State Historical Society website on Julius Meyer says that he is reputed to have spoken six *Indian* languages, not just six languages. He was born in Prussia in 1839, came to Omaha in 1867, developed acquainances with Plains Indians, and served as an interpreter for General George Crook. On other sites, there are a couple of pictures of his tobacco store from 1878, one with an awning printed in giant letters: Julius Meyer: Indian Interpreter. (A couple of Jewish-partisan blog sites from a few years ago claim that he came to Omaha in 1864 at the age of 13 or 14.) There are photos of him in Indian garb with some mainly Sioux delegations from the 1870s before that. He was the local specialist in Chinese and Japanese matters, as well as Indians. He seems to have started the Omaha Chess Club in 1879, and there is a picture of three Indians from 1883 that he apparently took. Oddly, I can't seem to find a date for his death. Although I think Bob is probably right about x being read as [ks], I would like to ask if anyone knows where the x convention for the velar fricative originated. Dorsey used it for the voiced or muted phoneme, and Fletcher and La Flesche collapsed both into x. Is this coming from an education in Greek? What about Russian? Doesn't it use an X for the velar fricative? (Sorry, I'm rusty on Cyrillic!) And what is known about Dorsey's introductory education in OP? Did he have any contact with Meyer? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 24 01:23:28 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:23:28 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Jimm! That's a great post, hitting the other possibility. I didn't know you knew Pawnee! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 24 16:05:23 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: Ponca-Pawnee Name Inquiry Message-ID: Good job on tracking down Meyer. I'd have suggested Czech since there were so many Czech immigrants (whole villages in a couple of cases apparently) in N.E. and N. Central KS and probably adjacent Nebraska. Back in the '70's I escorted a visiting prof. from Prague around some of these areas N. of Mayetta, KS collecting Czech names from tombstones. > Although I think Bob is probably right about x being read as [ks], I would like to ask if anyone knows where the x convention for the velar fricative originated. Yes, I'm pretty sure it IS Greek. When they ran out of Roman letters for phonetic symbols, they turned to Greek first. Cyrillic gets it from Greek also, but Cyrillic adopted variants of a couple of Hebrew letters too. Given Jimm's information, I'm wondering of Meyer might have made up his own Pawnee name using his only-partly-correct grammar. Bob From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 02:26:54 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:26:54 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "n?hje (heart)" and ud?n (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^?ndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + ud?n + wi] (I..., nat^?hadan; you..., nat^?radan; we..., h?nnat^?danwi; they..., nat^?dan?e). Nat^?hinda?e ke, I am pitied. Nat^?rigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at hotmail.com Fri Aug 31 12:15:39 2007 From: wipamankere at hotmail.com (Iren Hartmann) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:15:39 +0200 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Jimm, I'm currently working on the HocakLex. Some of these old Radin forms you found are not quite complete. There are two different forms of this verb in Hocank: naac hoja & naac hiroja, the former, however, seems to be the more frequently used one. It is inflected as follows: singular plural 1st person Actor exclusive naac waaja /naac hoja/ naac waajawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac huuja /naac hi-hoja/ (dual) naac huujawi /naac hi-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Actor naac horaja /naac hoja/ naac horajawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Actor naac hooja naac hoojaire naac hooja-ire singular plural 1st person Undergoer exclusive naac huuja /naac hoja/ naac huujawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac waagoja /naac waaga-hoja/ (dual) naac waagojawi /naac waaga-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Undergoer naac honija /naac hoja/ naac honijawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Undergoer naac hooja naac wooja /naac wa-hoja/ The following sentences were found in the example database and text corpus: Naac wowaaja. /naac wa-hoja/ OBJ.3PL-<1E.A>take.pity.on 'I blessed them.' Naac horakija? / naac_hoja/ <2.A-RFL>take.pity.on 'Did you feel sorry for yourself?' Naac huugijaiine. /naac_hoja-ire/ <1E.U-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-SBJ.3PL 'They took pity on me/blessed me.' Zige naac huunagijawi /zige naac_ hoja-wi / again <1E.U-2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-PL 'You blessed us again.' Naac wooragijagi niig?ta. /naac_wa-hoja-gi nii-gita/ OBJ.3PL-<2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-TOP 1&2-ask.from 'I ask you to bless them.' If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+ud?n +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. However, it looks like Ioway-Otoe inflects this verb differently. The 1st person actor (inclusive?) inflection seems to be prefixed to natc (as in: [h?nnat^?danwi]), whereas in Hocank it is prefixed to hoja. Maybe the complete list of Hocank forms is of help to you anyway? Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 14:43:52 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:43:52 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank You, Iren, for your detailed reply, which I am printing out for future reference. You have validated my thoughts that the citation for 3PP, [h?nnat^?danwi] is indeed incorrect. And further, that my proposed proper conjugation for 3PP is indeed the appropriate one. If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+ud?n +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. I have found instances of this pattern of infixed conjugation of compound word or word phrases have changed during the usage of late Elders, who spoke IOM as their first language. Evidence suggest that the infixed conjugations were historical, and continue appropriate usage unto these contemporary times. However, as I say, I've found some exceptions which I discussed with Bob and John in the past. They suggested that when I come upon such exceptions, to make note of them along with the actual citation of the speaker. I do not attempt any explanation of found exceptions, be it the influence of English, or natural linguistic evolution. Thank you again for your thorough and detailed reply. Indeed the complete Hochank listing of forms has been a help. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Iren Hartmann To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: HAVE PITY Jimm, I'm currently working on the HocakLex. Some of these old Radin forms you found are not quite complete. There are two different forms of this verb in Hocank: naac hoja & naac hiroja, the former, however, seems to be the more frequently used one. It is inflected as follows: singular plural 1st person Actor exclusive naac waaja /naac hoja/ naac waajawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac huuja /naac hi-hoja/ (dual) naac huujawi /naac hi-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Actor naac horaja /naac hoja/ naac horajawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Actor naac hooja naac hoojaire naac hooja-ire singular plural 1st person Undergoer exclusive naac huuja /naac hoja/ naac huujawi /naac hoja-wi/ inclusive naac waagoja /naac waaga-hoja/ (dual) naac waagojawi /naac waaga-hoja-wi/ 2nd person Undergoer naac honija /naac hoja/ naac honijawi /naac hoja-wi/ 3rd person Undergoer naac hooja naac wooja /naac wa-hoja/ The following sentences were found in the example database and text corpus: Naac wowaaja. /naac wa-hoja/ OBJ.3PL-<1E.A>take.pity.on 'I blessed them.' Naac horakija? / naac_hoja/ <2.A-RFL>take.pity.on 'Did you feel sorry for yourself?' Naac huugijaiine. /naac_hoja-ire/ <1E.U-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-SBJ.3PL 'They took pity on me/blessed me.' Zige naac huunagijawi /zige naac_ hoja-wi / again <1E.U-2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-PL 'You blessed us again.' Naac wooragijagi niig?ta. /naac_wa-hoja-gi nii-gita/ OBJ.3PL-<2.A-APPL.BEN>take.pity.on-TOP 1&2-ask.from 'I ask you to bless them.' If it were Hocank, I would interpret the form [nat^+(hin)+ud?n +wi] as either 1st plural inclusive actor = 'we (incl) take pity on him' or as a 1st person exclusive undergoer plural = 'S/he takes pity on us'. However, it looks like Ioway-Otoe inflects this verb differently. The 1st person actor (inclusive?) inflection seems to be prefixed to natc (as in: [h?nnat^?danwi]), whereas in Hocank it is prefixed to hoja. Maybe the complete list of Hocank forms is of help to you anyway? Best, Iren ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.12/979 - Release Date: 8/29/2007 8:21 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 31 15:12:53 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:12:53 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY Message-ID: Jimm, I'm not sure about the 3rd pl., but I'm wondering if the stem, /?udoN/, might not be more closely related to the Omaha and Ponca udoN that has more of a meaning like 'good', and in Kaw, 'good' or 'honorable'. In Kansa and Osage the verb often translated 'have pity' is used with the sense of 'bless' in prayers. But the root is different, /k?e/ with a causative. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Thu 8/30/2007 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: HAVE PITY Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "n?hje (heart)" and ud?n (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^?ndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + ud?n + wi] (I..., nat^?hadan; you..., nat^?radan; we..., h?nnat^?danwi; they..., nat^?dan?e). Nat^?hinda?e ke, I am pitied. Nat^?rigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 31 15:53:02 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:53:02 -0500 Subject: HAVE PITY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: I had already checked the root, which is -daN (move; press) and with the insep. prep "u- (in, into, within) does give: ud?N (pressed towards). I also noted the root in the word aw?daN (press on, press down on). An application of this word would be as in: pressing down on one's hair with the hand, OR pressing down on s.t. with the foot. And yes, the word is used as you say in the context of "bless" in prayer invocations and ceremonial use. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RE: HAVE PITY Jimm, I'm not sure about the 3rd pl., but I'm wondering if the stem, /?udoN/, might not be more closely related to the Omaha and Ponca udoN that has more of a meaning like 'good', and in Kaw, 'good' or 'honorable'. In Kansa and Osage the verb often translated 'have pity' is used with the sense of 'bless' in prayers. But the root is different, /k?e/ with a causative. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Thu 8/30/2007 9:26 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: HAVE PITY Bob, John, Rory, Johannes and whoever: Below you see the conjugation in Ioway, Otoe for "have pity". Also, there are two of a number of examples of usage. I have in question the third person plural, which may be in error. The verb is composed from "n?hje (heart)" and ud?n (be depressed toward). Would the 3PP be: nat^?ndanwi = [nat^ + (hin-) + ud?n + wi] (I..., nat^?hadan; you..., nat^?radan; we..., h?nnat^?danwi; they..., nat^?dan?e). Nat^?hinda?e ke, I am pitied. Nat^?rigradan ke, I took pity on you, my own one. I check for examples on Johannes HocakLex, but I found no examples. So I checked out examples taken from Radin: nadjirodja = take pity on; bless someone. nadjironidja na = I take pity on you; nadjiroradjagi = We take pity on you; nadjirodjana = They take pity on him; nadjirodjogi = They take pity on him; nadjodjapi ja = be pitied; nadjonidja = I pitied you; nadjonidja wina = we pity you; The above Hochank ~ Winnebago examples are not especially helpful in resolving my question above. Perhaps, in Dhegiha, there may be a better comparison. Jimm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/981 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 6:13 AM