From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 18:55:32 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:55:32 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Message-ID: Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Dec 6 19:50:58 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:50:58 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: <475845A4020000A600050586@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Anthony, The Omaha term is kuge wiN, literally "one box" as early treaty payments reportedly came in boxes of 1000 coins, while hiN wiN is 100, and 1,000,000 is given as kuge gtheboN hiN wiN, literally "thousand ten hundred" in the Stabler lexicon. Best, Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Anthony Grant" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 12/06/2007 01:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Dec 6 19:50:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:50:29 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Message-ID: In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 20:04:19 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:04:19 -0800 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 6 20:11:11 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:11:11 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand'Ioway, Otoe-Missouria will coincide here: kóge [kko' ge] It mean a box. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: David Costa To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:25:23 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:25:23 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave - I'd not known that! Something to add to the paper. >>> David Costa 12/06/07 8:04 pm >>> Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:25:49 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:25:49 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Jimm! >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 12/06/07 8:11 pm >>> Re: Dhegiha 'thousand'Ioway, Otoe-Missouria will coincide here: kóge [kko' ge] It mean a box. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: David Costa To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:27:59 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:27:59 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob! >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 12/06/07 7:50 pm >>> In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:27:37 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:27:37 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WibdhahaN, Mark! >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland 12/06/07 7:50 pm >>> Anthony, The Omaha term is kuge wiN, literally "one box" as early treaty payments reportedly came in boxes of 1000 coins, while hiN wiN is 100, and 1,000,000 is given as kuge gtheboN hiN wiN, literally "thousand ten hundred" in the Stabler lexicon. Best, Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Anthony Grant" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 12/06/2007 01:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Dec 6 21:14:16 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:14:16 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony, PaN'ka i'e gtheboN = 10 gtheboN hiN wiN = 100 (circle of tens) kuge = 1,000 (also means "trunk"; some elders continue to tell the story of 1000 coins being delivered in trunks a long time ago) From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 02:50:42 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:50:42 -0800 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Osage there is the same usage of 'trunk' for 'thousand', for the same reasons as expressed by others. ëâàhkoke (variants: ëâàhkoe, ëâàhkoa). n box, coffer, trunk; HYPERLINK \l "BM__msocom_1"[KL1] thousand. Or if you can't read this font, here it is in NetSiouan: zháNaNhkoke (variants: zháNaNhkoe, zháNaNhkoa). I will, btw, be happy to provide anyone with the font I'm using, if you'll just let me know. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:04 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__msoanchor_1"[KL1] Is this what you mean (that 'thousand' is another definition)? {{CQ: Yes, another definition.}} No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 02:58:01 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:58:01 -0700 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: <47586628.7020507@cox.net> Message-ID: Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 512 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 05:25:25 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 23:25:25 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 05:51:36 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:51:36 -0700 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob, The names were an 1827 German or French effort at their names. I am sure their names are listed in English somewhere, but was wondering how well these spellings worked out. Billy Maxwell From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Dec 7 14:43:51 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:43:51 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like LetáN WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms letáN~letóN for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (© 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^üce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage wíNxci to Kaw míNxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^üj^e, than Osage z^üce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw míNxc^i 'one' or míNj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Dec 7 15:04:01 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:04:01 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Wel... I did a search online for Gretomih, and came up with the following from the http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitions/seasonsofparis/osage.html website: THE OSAGES IN PARIS In July 1827, a party of six Osage Indians, four men and two women, arrived in France from Missouri and traveled to Paris, where they created a sensation as representatives of an exotic culture. An article in the Journal des Debats described them as chief, Kihegashugah (or Little Chief), aged 38, his wife Myhangah and cousin Gretomih, both women aged 18, as second chief Washingsaba (Black Spirit), aged 32, and his two followers Marcharthitatoongah (Big Warrior) aged 45 and Minkchatahooh (Little Warrior) aged 22. They were accompanied by a half-Indian, half-French man who served as interpreter. So, just forget all that stuff I was saying about Kaw names! It looks like we've found them: Gretomih = (same) 'Hawk Woman' LetáN WiN Kishagashugah = Kihegashugah 'Little Chief' Kahíke Z^íNka Minckchatahooh = Minkchatahooh 'Little Warrior' ????? I just have no idea how the 'Little Warrior' name actually breaks down. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin McBride" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like LetáN WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms letáN~letóN for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (© 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^üce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage wíNxci to Kaw míNxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^üj^e, than Osage z^üce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw míNxc^i 'one' or míNj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 15:07:10 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 07:07:10 -0800 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grétomih: A recent version of this name (Gretomih) is letóNwiN 'hawk woman' which was the name of Mrs. Holding who was one of the major sources for the Osage dictionary information. Not sure about the other ones, perhaps in the tribal museum there is a collection of names and one could find alternative spellings that could shed some light on this, by providing a clue as to what sounds are meant by this spelling. If the inquirer (Billy or Killian) wants to contact me off-list I can speculate (make some wild guesses) on the other two names. HYPERLINK "mailto:cquintero at interlinguainc.com"cquintero at interlinguainc.com Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:25 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 15:07:36 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:07:36 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: > The names were an 1827 German or French effort at their names. That's useful information since it strongly suggests that the letter "I" was indeed pronounced "ee". So the first name was probably 'Hawk Woman'. The spelling info should help people who know much more than I about Osage to I.D. the other two. Leave it to me to undertake the easiest of three jobs! :-) Bob From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Dec 7 15:20:01 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:20:01 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: <001d01c838df$97356320$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Billy, Justin is correct in his observation of notoriously awful translations. You have to take some wild guesses as to how a European would have spelled Osage sounds from that period. My best S.W.A.G.: Grétomih - gthe'daN mi - Hawk Moon, or, gthe'daN wi - Hawk Woman Kishagashugah - [gi] sha'ge shu'gah - Thick Nail Minckchatahooh - mi'xa saN ta hu (Duck Call).......perhaps "mi'xa pa taN ho" - mallard (Ithink this is in LaFlesche's dictionary) > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 15:26:15 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:26:15 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Hey, great work! And the 2nd chief Washingsaba should be 'Black Bird" (as opposed to blackbird) rather than the more-romantic-sounding "Black Spirit", I suppose. "Big Warrior" looks like an attempt, filtered thru English, to reproduce something like Mashatita tonga. I don't recognize that right off, except for the tonga part. Could have a ch rather than the Fr. pronunciation of sh too. In another hour or so Carolyn will be struggling out of bed out there in Long Beach and we'll all learn the truth. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Fri 12/7/2007 9:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names Wel... I did a search online for Gretomih, and came up with the following from the http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitions/seasonsofparis/osage.html website: THE OSAGES IN PARIS In July 1827, a party of six Osage Indians, four men and two women, arrived in France from Missouri and traveled to Paris, where they created a sensation as representatives of an exotic culture. An article in the Journal des Debats described them as chief, Kihegashugah (or Little Chief), aged 38, his wife Myhangah and cousin Gretomih, both women aged 18, as second chief Washingsaba (Black Spirit), aged 32, and his two followers Marcharthitatoongah (Big Warrior) aged 45 and Minkchatahooh (Little Warrior) aged 22. They were accompanied by a half-Indian, half-French man who served as interpreter. So, just forget all that stuff I was saying about Kaw names! It looks like we've found them: Gretomih = (same) 'Hawk Woman' LetáN WiN Kishagashugah = Kihegashugah 'Little Chief' Kahíke Z^íNka Minckchatahooh = Minkchatahooh 'Little Warrior' ????? I just have no idea how the 'Little Warrior' name actually breaks down. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin McBride" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like LetáN WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms letáN~letóN for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (© 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^üce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage wíNxci to Kaw míNxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^üj^e, than Osage z^üce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw míNxc^i 'one' or míNj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 15:55:45 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:55:45 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Osages in Paris Message-ID: http://libweb2.princeton.edu/rbsc2/portfolio/wa/fi/00000004.htm If you care to place faces with the names, here is the link. Thank you three Osages full, or make that six. Billy Begin forwarded message: > From: "Robert Brewer" > Date: December 6, 2007 10:39:38 AM MST > To: > Subject: Re: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Re: Nice 1827 sketch of Osages > in Paris > Reply-To: PlainsIndianSeminartwo at yahoogroups.com > > Dave and all- > Kilian uploaded his pictures to the "DECEMBER 05-2007" folder of the > PIS2 Photos section. >   > http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/photos/ > browse/4bd5 >   > His description for both reads "A colored lithographs of Osage Indians > by Louis-Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 ." I've attached his > pictures to this message. >   > For those waiting to see Yesterday's pictures on the web site, these > are now uploaded. I was gone much of yesterday and when I returned > none of my email was coming in. My server must have been down. Finally > worked this morning and have spent the last couple of hours reading > the messages, saving these and the attachments and uploading to the > various web sites.  Most done now except I still need to upload Mike's > 99 moccasin photos to PIS Images 27. >   > -Bob >>> Dear Billy, >>> I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- >>> Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time >>> this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate >>> the >>> photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah >>> and Minckchatahooh. >>> >>> Greetings >>> Kilian from old Germany -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Seneca, for example, is sgaöshæ:d, quite literally "one box". Wally --On Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:25 PM +0000 Anthony Grant wrote: > Thanks, Dave - I'd not known that! Something to add to the paper. > >>>> David Costa 12/06/07 8:04 pm >>> > Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand > (dollars)". From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 04:16:37 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:16:37 +1100 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] Message-ID: Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanOnomatopes1892[1-4].pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 878433 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- [Part 2 to follow] But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like to share it. Best wishes, Clive Bloomfield. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 04:19:45 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:19:45 +1100 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] Message-ID: Here's pages 5 to 8 : -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanOnomatopes1892[5-8].pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 876900 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boris at terracom.net Sat Dec 8 05:01:13 2007 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:01:13 -0600 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] In-Reply-To: <6DA42270-16E5-4A86-A10C-1F2DCC826AA7@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Clive: Onomatopes seems to be an interesting Anglicization of the Greek form "onomatopeia." Alan K No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: 12/7/2007 1:11 PM From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 07:53:45 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:53:45 +1100 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] In-Reply-To: <013a01c83957$6127dec0$df6e0fcc@alscom> Message-ID: Hello Alan, A fellow Classicist-Lakotanist? Yes indeed, I thought it was rather singular, although one sees clearly what is meant. I suspect J.O.D. may have coined a neologism there - haven't checked Webster or the OED yet, for the term's first appearance in English. "pharmacopeia'--->"pharmacope"(??); "mythopoiea"-->"mythope"(??); "epopoieia"-->"epope"(??) Hmm - maybe not, eh? Oh well, "se non è vero, è ben trovato", no? regards, Clive B. On 08/12/2007, at 4:01 PM, Alan Knutson wrote: > > Hi Clive: > > Onomatopes seems to be an interesting Anglicization of the Greek form > "onomatopeia." > > Alan K > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: > 12/7/2007 1:11 PM > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 10:40:35 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:40:35 +1100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: <682852.11933.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Bruce & other Lakotanists, Physical & emotional (metaphysical?) feelings probably require someone with more extensive philosophical training than mine to distinguish between! Regarding physical feelings, I have found the following two sentences in Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's 1944 Lakota version of Ann Nolan Clark's "Brave Against the Enemy", where (imho) the relevant verbs might well be rendered in English as "he did not feel it". (One realizes that other translations may be possible.) Both on Page 168 of BAE : 1) "Chuwita sece, eyas^ kiksuye s^ni." [=he may have been cold, but he didn't feel it] I suppose more literally, that might be : "he wasn't mindful/ conscious/aware of it." 2) "Hustaka aye sece, eyas^ slolkiye s^ni." [=Perhaps he'd become tired, yet he didn't feel (his own exhaustion)/He wasn't aware of his own probable growing fatigue] Nolan Clark's original has : "If he grew tired, he did not know it." Regarding more abstract emotions, I find this interesting metaphorical description of a state of emotion in the same Lakota translator's version of Nolan Clark's "Bringer of The Mystery Dog" (1941) I realize that the original bold metaphor is in the English there, but perhaps such an experienced translator as E.A-O-H might well have transformed & "lakota-fied" it, if the thought-pattern had been too alien to a Lakota-speaker's psychology?? : (To set the scene : S^uNka Cik'ala, Little Dog, has just witnessed an exciting buffalo-hunt, but is browned-off, because he longs to become a man by accomplishing a deed of derring-do) I will need to quote a little more extensively! On Pages 37 & 38 : "Wanasapi hehaN lila ohitika oh^'aN s^ni k'uN he e cha el hi. YuNkhaN he woawachiN kin thaz^us^ka wichayah^takapi kin he iyecheca. Takuni echuN s^ni." ........................."Thaz^us^ka woawachiN ciscila kiN he akhe hi na akhe yah^take nag^iyeyiN kta el hi. Tokhel iyokiphipi thaN'iNs^ni waN anpetu ota nag^iyeye na haNhepi ota oihaNkes^ni kakis^ye." [=At the time of the hunt, he had performed no deed of bravery, that was the sort of (feeling/realization) which came to him. And now that feeling/awareness was like an ant which stung people. He'd done sweet Fanny Adams!...................That little ant feeling came again & again, to sting & annoy him. A feeling of general dissatisfaction aggravated him for many days, and tormented him through endless nights.] On Page 62 (ibid.) : "(S^uNka Cik'ala lila waNkayeic'iye.) Ithokap taku ok'oka woawachiN ichaNteiyapha k'uN he woawachiN lechala kin ahi ichiyutakuni s^ni na lila sutaya yuze." [=Little Dog jumped high into the air. His present emotions, when juxtaposed (lit. : ' brought to) with those feelings of excitement which had struck his heart previously, diminished (them) by comparison (ichi- 'together") to nothing, and held him firmly in their grip.] (Perhaps that translation is a little 'free'!) Lastly, there is this intriguing passage depicting feelings of emotional preference : On Page 46 (ibid.) : Grandmother (UNci) and Young Girl (WichiNcala Theca) and Singing Woman (LowaN s'a) are quite happy to be confined in their tipi during the onset of the winter blizzards, in preference to less desirable alternatives) Again, to give some context, it seems necessary to extend the quotation. "Thima aonathak yaNkapi chaNkhe iyokiphipi. Wichasha kin iyuha thiokshaNla unpi chaNkhe he uN oonakiphe na okhophewanilya iyokphiya uNpi kiN he uN hecheca. [=They were pleased to be shut up indoors. Their menfolk weren't far away from home, and so they felt happy living in safety (in a safe location) & in the absence of anxiety.] "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was their situation'.] (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - that's the way it was). "Na tokeh^ci osni k'eyas^ chuwitapi kiN he akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na nawichakiciz^iNpi chola okhopheya yaNkapi kte kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." [= And no matter how cold the weather became, they preferred to face feeling fozen, to a life of fear, bereft of men to defend them - such was their predicament.] Incidentally, I find the syntax of the last two sentences fascinating! That use of the locative-prefix "a-" [="on; added; more"] to express comparison is most interesting.(IF that surmise IS correct - See B&D pp. 39-40 : although the remarks there do seem to specify " with adverbs". But I also had in mind the sense of "awas^te" meaning : "be better than") Regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 30/11/2007, at 9:22 PM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > True abstract notions are difficult to sort out. In Lakota I note > that I have a word woableze 'perception' and would think that > ableza 'to perceive, understand' could stand for 'feel' as well'. > The word slolya 'know, experience' also comes near to it as in > teh^i slolya 'experience difficulties, have a hard time'. Often as > you note there is a specific word for things like 'feel sad', feel > happy' sometimes involving chante 'heart' obviously in Lakota the > seat of emotions. So one finds chante s^ica 'feel sad', chante > was^te 'feel happy'. The word thawacin is also often translated > 'feelings, emotions' though I can't think how it could be used in a > sentence. I would love to know what other Lakotanists think might > stand for 'feel, feelings'. > Bruce > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > > > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! > for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Dec 8 19:44:03 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 20:44:03 +0100 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] In-Reply-To: <67186A97-0DB0-4F2A-94B1-5FC41F2DC06A@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, up to now, I never heard the word "onomatope" (was it an early coining of J.O. Dorsey's time??). It is usually given as "onomatopoeia" (onomatopoeic) in English (hangutánzás, hangutánzó in Hungarian and Lautmalerei, lautmalerisch in German). With reference to Siouan tongues, I've encountered the expression "sound symbolism" or such, which might be different (Kostya?). Alfred P.S. You maybe still remember our topic: Hungarian "szundikál" (to slumber) and Romani "sune dikel/suno dikhel" (to dream)... Am 08.12.2007 um 05:16 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on > "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which > may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : > > > > [Part 2 to follow] > > But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like > to share it. > > Best wishes, > > Clive Bloomfield. From willemdereuse at unt.edu Sat Dec 8 20:20:42 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:20:42 -0600 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] In-Reply-To: <51DBC3F0-51AE-4AAB-AEAC-11B4E17C7DDE@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Thank you Clive. I am quite impressed by the breadth of knowledge of good ole J.O.D. He is right about correlative pronouns in Siouan (p.1 ). I am not quite sure what he means about correlative pronouns in Athabascan, though... Willem > Am 08.12.2007 um 05:16 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > >> Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on >> "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which >> may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : >> >> >> >> [Part 2 to follow] >> >> But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like >> to share it. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Clive Bloomfield. > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Dec 9 19:10:14 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:10:14 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na iyokiṡica un pi kin he e aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) Very good examples! Yet, I wouldn't use the English word "felt" in the (more) literal translation because thus diluting your very point: As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _slólkiyA_ - "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) are used. BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 9 20:28:05 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:28:05 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <388F019E-C426-4FA1-95A8-421AD7859475@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na iyokiṡica un pi kin he e aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) Very good examples! Yet, I wouldn't use the English word "felt" in the (more) literal translation because thus diluting your very point: As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _slólkiyA_ - "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) are used. BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Dec 10 11:51:05 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:51:05 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na iyokiṡica un pi kin he e aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 10 12:47:26 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:47:26 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <547B68D9-E3C9-40AB-A442-3FF45D928A9E@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote:> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na iyokiṡica un pi kin he e aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 10 13:39:22 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:39:22 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <401231.5778.qm@web27014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (LoÄ From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Dec 10 14:39:57 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:39:57 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <401231.5778.qm@web27014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Bruce, only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten in the ground"). Alfred P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue (mila??) Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a > snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe > 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/ > mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, > whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more > than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally > productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I > have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think > on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this > impression? > Bruce < > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe > comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") > e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of > other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general > idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian > adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél > jobb - better than this). > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > (LoÄ‹inpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na > iyokiṡica un pi kin he e > aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) > > (...) > > BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better > than), it's very > convincing. > > Alfred > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 10 18:30:59 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:30:59 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random order: ki-ska 'to turn white' ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' ki-suta 'to get hard' ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' ki-haNska 'to get tall' ki-ksapa 'he got smart' ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' ki-bleza 'to become conscious' ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' ki-ni 'to come back to life' ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a historical connection. ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old word" by informant) ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: *ki-khate 'to get hot' *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen with too many of my grammar files! As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. Regina ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: Thanks a lot, Bruce, only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten in the ground"). Alfred P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue (mila??) Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na iyokiṡica un pi kin he e aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Dec 10 20:33:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:33:49 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (LoÄ - a smarter inbox. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 10 21:32:58 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:32:58 +0000 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina's mention of kini as in the radio station reminded me of kili, the other radio station, which is translated often as "awesome", if that is how it is spelt. I have often wondered what the origin of this word is. It doesn't seem to have a recognizable root or any cognates. It seems an odd word for such a necessary concept. Any clues? Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random order: ki-ni 'to come back to life' --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Dec 10 21:13:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:13:29 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (LoÄ - a smarter inbox. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 01:09:05 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:09:05 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki- ska, in addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') " ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. There are also : ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wakíchepa wi' June, moon of things getting fat again) ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn whitish FOR one' (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. p.88 : "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person waki-." Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became men too quickly." Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before their time." (p.37) In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get big'). R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no control." Good wishes, Clive. P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case- ending called the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp. 129-130; "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm still thinking them over! :) On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, > in random order: > > ki-ska 'to turn white' > ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' > ki-suta 'to get hard' > ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' > ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' > ki-ni 'to come back to life' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' > thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' > wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' > > There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, > which, however, is rendered by the slightly different translation > 'to become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" > ki-? I'd say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- > to postulate a historical connection. > > ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an > "old word" by informant) > ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' > ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' > > The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives > are most easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them > are. For instance, the following combinations are ungrammatical, > among many others: > *ki-khate 'to get hot' > *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' > > It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have > become by itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently > kicked this file out of the "active" materials that needed double- > checking with native speakers years ago, I couldn't pursue this > issue further. I hope that didn't happen with too many of my > grammar files! > As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental > prefix, that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this > element. At least, this type of ki- seems to go nicely with > semantically similar prefixes such as na- 'to become by itself' and > ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there IS an intransitive ka-). > Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect marker. I've also > considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, but that > didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. > > Regina > > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > Thanks a lot, Bruce, > only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. > Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as > anything rotten in the ground"). > > Alfred > > P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this > issue (mila??) > > > Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > >> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a >> snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe >> 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use >> ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more >> conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. >> Bruce >> >> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >> > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more >> than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally >> productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I >> have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't >> think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have >> this impression? >> Bruce < >> >> >> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") >> e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of >> other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >> >> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a >> "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of >> Hungarian adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative >> (e.g. ennél jobb - better than this). >> >> Alfred >> >> >> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >> > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica >> uNpi >> > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >> >> > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >> to living in >> > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >> > their situation'.] >> > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >> > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >> > that's the way it was). >> >> >> (LoÄ‹inpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na >> iyokiṡica un pi kin he e >> aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) >> >> (...) >> >> BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better >> than), it's very >> convincing. >> >> Alfred >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 02:12:06 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:12:06 +1100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Alfred, Can't say much about the 'etyma' of "kimimila", but there is (B-Md., s.v.) "kiwiwila" : 'to turn into a spring', (apparently used in B.H. 181.21). At least it rhymes, eh? I would love to know the etymology of "kimimila' though! BTW, frustratingly, B-Md.'s citations from the famous 1924 'Bible History' do not appear to correspond at all with my copy of the Benziger Bros. edition of that year. (E.g. page 181 has only 19 lines of text : 'kiwiwila' does not appear there.) I've also stumbled across : kithaN'iN : glossed by B-Md. as "to appear; be visible FOR". (given that translation, clearly 1st Dative, no?) Since, as we know, thaN'iN means : "(be) visible/apparent/manifest", might that verbal derivative be another lead towards possible first dative origins of that 'ki-' prefix? : kithaN'iN : (perhaps) 'to become visible/apparent, etc.' -->'to show up suddenly/to suddenly become manifest'(??). Just speculations. Also, as Regina observes, there may well be an Aspectual component of some kind (at least with some of these ki- items) Sudden change or entrance into a state? Ingressive? Inchoative?. But I am also attracted to that suggested semantic similarity with the instrumental prefixes 'na-' ['by inner force' (B&D, p.46)] & 'ka-' [with/by 'indeterminate outer force'(B&D p.47, #46.2)] Was meinst du dazu, meiner Freund? Alles Gute! Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 1:39 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > Thanks a lot, Bruce, > only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. > Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as > anything rotten in the ground"). > > Alfred > > P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this > issue (mila??) > > >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 02:39:44 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:39:44 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <949046D0-79C4-4BF4-B665-FCEE082AC8E8@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/12/2007, at 12:09 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in > his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan > Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp. > 35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na > echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they went off to do a man's > job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: silently). > They became men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were > sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They > became men before their time." (p.37) > A minor quibble : I've double-checked Starr's text there, and he does actually have 'inila iyapi' there. I'm uneasy with that ; wouldn't 'inila' alone suffice to express the idea : 'without backchat/complaint'? I wonder if, given his English translation, that could be a defective transcription of an originally spoken : 'iyayapi' (=they set off/went away), or even, possibly 'iyayeyapi' (interpreted 'passively'=they were sent away?). But I guess one might have expected : 'iyayewichayapi' [=they sent them away] for that second meaning. Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Dec 11 05:54:13 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:54:13 -0700 Subject: ki 'by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, until I got Regina's message. I am firmly convinced that this Lak. "ki" is "instrumental" in the sense that it fits the same kind of slots as na, wo, ka, etc. etc. And it is unaspirated "ki". There is another morpheme with similar behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide what category to put that into. Two examples that Regina didn't mention (sorry if someone else already brought them up): ki-washicu 'to take on White man's ways' ki-Lakhota 'to behave like an Indian' (this is always pejorative in my experience, means something like 'making an idiot of himself by pretending to be Indian'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. > > I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? > > I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shokooh Ingham > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. T�ting"" wrote: > > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? > Bruce < > > > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > > > (Lo� iyokiṡica un pi kin he e > aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin hé� > > (...) > > > BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very > convincing. > > > Alfred > > > > ________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Dec 11 06:03:01 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:03:01 -0700 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <949046D0-79C4-4BF4-B665-FCEE082AC8E8@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki-skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how this might work? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! > > Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki-ska, in > addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn > white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful > metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) > also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') > " > ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' > (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification > of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear > again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. > There are also : > > ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wak�chepa wi' June, moon of > things getting fat again) > ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] > ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] > ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn > whitish FOR one' > (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort > of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) > ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the > ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. > > > Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. > p.88 : > > "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" > > "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A > number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are > expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person > waki-." > > Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", > 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The > Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with > affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. > Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and > they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became > men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to > do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before > their time." (p.37) > > In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men > AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more > diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the > pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? > > > > Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of > this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : > > ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' > ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get > big'). > > R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into > the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no > control." > > Good wishes, > Clive. > > P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar > idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case-ending called > the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or > attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another > noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., > christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! > ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp.129-130; > "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] > > P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm > still thinking them over! :) > > On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > >> Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random >> order: >> >> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' >> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' >> ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' >> ki-ni 'to come back to life' >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' >> thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' >> wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' >> >> There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, >> however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to >> become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd >> say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a >> historical connection. >> >> ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old >> word" by informant) >> ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' >> ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' >> >> The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most >> easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, >> the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: >> *ki-khate 'to get hot' >> *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' >> >> It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by >> itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out >> of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers >> years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen >> with too many of my grammar files! >> As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, >> that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, >> this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such >> as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there >> IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect >> marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, >> but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. >> >> Regina >> >> >> ""Alfred W. T�ting"" wrote: >> Thanks a lot, Bruce, >> only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I >> found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten >> in the ground"). >> >> Alfred >> >> P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue >> (mila??) >> >> >> Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: >> >>> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', >>> kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; >>> a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself >>> into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is >>> non-intentional perhaps. >>> Bruce >>> >>> ""Alfred W. T�ting"" wrote: >>>> Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an >>>> interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is >>>> a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it >>>> is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this >>>> feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? >>> Bruce < >>> >>> >>> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >>> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. >>> kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other >>> renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >>> >>> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" >>> found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive >>> -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than >>> this). >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >>>> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi >>>> kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >>> >>>> [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >>> to living in >>>> sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >>>> their situation'.] >>>> (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >>>> did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >>>> that's the way it was). >>> >>> >>> (Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na >>> iyokiṡica un pi kin he e >>> aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.) >>> >>> (...) >>> >>> BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), >>> it's very >>> convincing. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. >> >> >> >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 08:20:32 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:20:32 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: . oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 08:39:02 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:39:02 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <742747.32189.qm@web27015.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Regina's mention of kini as in the radio station reminded me of kili, the other radio station, which is translated often as "awesome", > if that is how it is spelt. I have often wondered what the origin of this word is. It doesn't seem to have a recognizable root or any cognates. > It seems an odd word for such a necessary concept. Any clues? It is a common colloquialism and pronounced with aspirated kh: khili'. It is most likely related to okhilita 'it is exciting, thrilling, intense, dramatic, a to-do, crowds, there is much action'. The -lita part might be related to archaic words walitakA 'to be courageous and full of valor, industrious and active' and to litas^kaN 'to be very busy'. I am uncertain as to the origin of khi, but I don't think it is impossible that it originates in the stem khi- 'in contact' Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Dec 11 09:49:18 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:18 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <23E13574-EC51-49D0-964A-6C5ACE5696E7@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Hallo Clive, mein Freund! reading your quote (?iyapi) and translation, my thought has been also that the transcription might (must?) be erroneous. My careful guess: the transcriber didn't consider the spoken word's slurred form in common speech (iyaya pi = [iyaapi] -> *iyapi), what do you think? Alfred P.S. I also remembered Starr's "lila oh'ankoya kiwicasapi" [ki- wi'chas^a-pi], thanks for quoting. Am 11.12.2007 um 03:39 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > > On 11/12/2007, at 12:09 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in >> his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota >> Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan >> Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp. >> 35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : >> >> "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na >> echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." >> >> "Even though they were still just boys, they went off to do a man's >> job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: silently). >> They became men too quickly." >> >> Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were >> sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They >> became men before their time." (p.37) >> > > > A minor quibble : > > I've double-checked Starr's text there, and he does actually have > 'inila iyapi' there. I'm uneasy with that ; wouldn't 'inila' alone > suffice to express the idea : 'without backchat/complaint'? > I wonder if, given his English translation, that could be a > defective transcription of an originally spoken : 'iyayapi' (=they > set off/went away), > or even, possibly 'iyayeyapi' (interpreted 'passively'=they were > sent away?). But I guess one might have expected : > 'iyayewichayapi' [=they sent them away] for that second meaning. > > Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 10:45:51 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:45:51 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings David, You are most welcome! Might that be due to the semantic-field of 'skuya' perhaps covering 'salt(y)/sour', in addition to 'sweet' , as shown in such apparent derivatives of the root as : 'skumna'/'oskumna' ='sour-smelling; sourish'; 'oskuya' ='sour (e.g., as milk)'; 'wiskuye' ='something which sours (OR sweetens) food '[Buech.-Md.]--- >i.e. 'spice/condiment'? Regards, Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 5:03 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki- > skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional > meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal > semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the > sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how > this might work? > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Dec 11 11:01:29 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:01:29 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: This is very interesting and convincing, indeed, thanks. As an old- fashioned linguistic purist myself, I'm afraid to state that this appears to be the way languages generally develop through (modern) use. May I grasp the opportunity here, Jan, asking your authentic view on the use of "ki-is^tamnihaNpi (hiNgle)" in your fine translation of Emma LaRocque's poem "Where did she go?"? "(...) Ite na ho kin hena / tokahe anpao kinhan / wakalyapi mitawa kin / ki-istamnihanpi hingle (...)" "(...) Her voices, her faces / that turn my coffee / into a cup of tears / with the first wisp of day? (...)" Ite na ho kin hena Ṫokahe ánpaó kinhan waḱalyapi miṫawa kin ki-iṡtamnihanpi hingle. I'm already pondering over this special use of ki- since quite some time, you know: it caught my eye that, as it seems to me, you thought it to be necessary(?)/advisible(?) to use a hyphen and (even) the auxiliary verb hinglA together with the main verb. I'd be most grateful for any feedback. Best regards Alfred Am 11.12.2007 um 09:20 schrieb Jan Ullrich: > I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- > is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice > kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is > used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words > with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation > of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye – 'to turn into a > cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by > contemporary speakers. > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning > 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for > instance in kiwichas^a – 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her > grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human > who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to > become a (respectable) woman again' > In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. > So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If > the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment > caution and cross checking. > > > ki-ska 'to turn white' > > Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to > return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: > … oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a – 'when > they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > > > ki-suta 'to get hard' > > 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets > he melted became hard again' > > > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > > 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', > this is often used for 'to sober up' > > > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > > This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > > > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > These are all somewhat surprising to me. > > Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an > active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated > as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some > of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni – 'to > recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be > pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). > Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? > > Jan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 11:05:36 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:05:36 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, Of course, one willingly defers to your deeper knowledge : you are the man on the spot, in direct daily contact with speakers, after all. But the thought occurs to me that if Ivan Starr is a 'Nam vet, (as I understand he is), he must be at least 55+ years of age, and more probably in his 60's. Sure, that seems youngish to me too, these days, but lets face it, it ain't exactly the first heady flush of youth, either! But then again, amongst the fluent-speaker demographic, 60-something probably IS somewhat "spring-chickenish", eh? Cheers, Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 7:20 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the > meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs > for instance in kiwichas^a – 'to become a man'. > Jan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 15:32:47 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:47 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (quoting JAN) >I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to >return to the original state". I was aware of this meaning which is listed in Boas/Deloria when I started working on ki-, but for some funny reason, my speakers didn't provide any data to support the hypothesis that 'to become again' is the sole meaning of ki- (which wouldn't work to well with stuff like David's ki-was>icu etc.). It might be an additional reading of the basic meaning 'to become'. >In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. This coincides with my findings. >So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. ki- might be productive enough to have produced words you haven't encountered. As for my own list, I would never claim that it is anywhere near complete. >ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." It's impossible to tell whether a certain ki- is a dative or a 'become'-ki- just from looking at the verb form. The translation might not always be helpful in resloving such conflicts. At least, in my translation, a secondary argument that represents a recipient or experiencer is not indicated. And I really trust my speakers. >Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Unfortunately, nothing. That's the weak spot in my data. As I said, I didn't do much work on ki- because I accidentally removed the file from the active field materials that needed double-checking years ago, as I found out yesterday. But having data on inflection might help answer the quesion of what particular type of ki- we're looking at in individual cases. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye – 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a – 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a – 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni – 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 15:39:14 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:39:14 -0800 Subject: ki 'by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (quoting David) >There is another morpheme with similar >behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide >what category to put that into. I'm happy to report that I have a pretty complex khi-file in my data that hasn't been prematurely removed from the files that needed further work, like the ki-file. khi- is certainly less productive than ki- and has a meaning that is extremely hard to pin down. In some cases, a concept such as separative would fit, and it also has meanings implying a divisioninto two components. khi- is semantically sufficiently distinct from ki- to neglect it in our discussion of ki-. Regina ROOD DAVID S wrote: Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, until I got Regina's message. I am firmly convinced that this Lak. "ki" is "instrumental" in the sense that it fits the same kind of slots as na, wo, ka, etc. etc. And it is unaspirated "ki". There is another morpheme with similar behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide what category to put that into. Two examples that Regina didn't mention (sorry if someone else already brought them up): ki-washicu 'to take on White man's ways' ki-Lakhota 'to behave like an Indian' (this is always pejorative in my experience, means something like 'making an idiot of himself by pretending to be Indian'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. > > I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? > > I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shokooh Ingham > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? > Bruce < > > > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: > > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > > > (LoÄ> iyokiṡica un pi kin he e > aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héÄ> > > (...) > > > BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very > convincing. > > > Alfred > > > > ________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 11 17:52:26 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:52:26 -0600 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' Message-ID: Throughout much of Mississippi Valley Siouan and all of the Dhegiha *ni-skudhe (water+sweet) is 'salt', and in Ohio Valley Siouan it is often from *ma-skure (earth+sweet). So we have 'sweet', 'salty' and 'sour' all using the same root. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 12:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki-skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how this might work? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! > > Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki-ska, in > addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn > white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful > metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) > also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') > " > ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' > (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification > of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear > again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. > There are also : > > ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wakíchepa wi' June, moon of > things getting fat again) > ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] > ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] > ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn > whitish FOR one' > (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort > of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) > ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the > ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. > > > Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. > p.88 : > > "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" > > "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A > number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are > expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person > waki-." > > Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", > 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The > Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with > affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. > Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and > they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became > men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to > do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before > their time." (p.37) > > In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men > AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more > diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the > pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? > > > > Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of > this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : > > ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' > ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get > big'). > > R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into > the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no > control." > > Good wishes, > Clive. > > P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar > idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case-ending called > the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or > attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another > noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., > christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! > ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp.129-130; > "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] > > P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm > still thinking them over! :) > > On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > >> Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random >> order: >> >> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' >> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' >> ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' >> ki-ni 'to come back to life' >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' >> thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' >> wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' >> >> There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, >> however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to >> become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd >> say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a >> historical connection. >> >> ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old >> word" by informant) >> ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' >> ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' >> >> The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most >> easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, >> the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: >> *ki-khate 'to get hot' >> *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' >> >> It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by >> itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out >> of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers >> years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen >> with too many of my grammar files! >> As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, >> that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, >> this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such >> as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there >> IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect >> marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, >> but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. >> >> Regina >> >> >> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >> Thanks a lot, Bruce, >> only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I >> found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten >> in the ground"). >> >> Alfred >> >> P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue >> (mila??) >> >> >> Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: >> >>> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', >>> kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; >>> a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself >>> into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is >>> non-intentional perhaps. >>> Bruce >>> >>> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >>>> Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an >>>> interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is >>>> a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it >>>> is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this >>>> feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? >>> Bruce < >>> >>> >>> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >>> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. >>> kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other >>> renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >>> >>> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" >>> found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive >>> -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than >>> this). >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote: >>>> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi >>>> kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >>> >>>> [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >>> to living in >>>> sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >>>> their situation'.] >>>> (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >>>> did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >>>> that's the way it was). >>> >>> >>> (LoÄ>> iyokiṡica un pi kin he e >>> aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héÄ>> >>> (...) >>> >>> BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), >>> it's very >>> convincing. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. >> >> >> >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 11 18:42:37 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:37 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 19:44:05 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:44:05 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <406816.55639.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting myself) Jan said that the ki- in my previous example ki-was^tecakA should be analyzed as a dative, rather than as ki- 'to become'. I responded that both options might be possible. I'm still defending that claim, but meantime I found rich documentation of dative ki- in ki-was^tecakA in my own data, with both types of datives. For instance: waki-was^tecake 'I was good to him' Regina REGINA PUSTET wrote: (quoting JAN) >I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to >return to the original state". I was aware of this meaning which is listed in Boas/Deloria when I started working on ki-, but for some funny reason, my speakers didn't provide any data to support the hypothesis that 'to become again' is the sole meaning of ki- (which wouldn't work to well with stuff like David's ki-was>icu etc.). It might be an additional reading of the basic meaning 'to become'. >In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. This coincides with my findings. >So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. ki- might be productive enough to have produced words you haven't encountered. As for my own list, I would never claim that it is anywhere near complete. >ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." It's impossible to tell whether a certain ki- is a dative or a 'become'-ki- just from looking at the verb form. The translation might not always be helpful in resloving such conflicts. At least, in my translation, a secondary argument that represents a recipient or experiencer is not indicated. And I really trust my speakers. >Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Unfortunately, nothing. That's the weak spot in my data. As I said, I didn't do much work on ki- because I accidentally removed the file from the active field materials that needed double-checking years ago, as I found out yesterday. But having data on inflection might help answer the quesion of what particular type of ki- we're looking at in individual cases. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye – 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a – 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a – 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni – 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 20:09:57 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:09:57 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 21:52:55 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:52:55 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <630244.81440.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting Regina ) Jan said that the ki- in my previous example ki-was^tecakA should be analyzed as a dative, rather than as ki- 'to become'. I responded that both options might be possible. I'm still defending that claim, but meantime I found rich documentation of dative ki- in ki-was^tecakA in my own data, with both types of datives. For instance: waki-was^tecake 'I was good to him' Yes, this was the reason why I mentioned that. The dative usage with was^tecaka is just so very frequent that most speakers will immediatelly understand kiwas^tecaka as a dative. Another sentence example is Lila tanyan makhuwa na makiwas^tecake. - She treated me well and was very kind to me. I am sure that at least some of them will recognize the ki- "become" meaning as well, but it just isn't a very common thing to say. When one wants to command some one else to behave, they usually say Owanz^ila yaNka yo/ye. or TaNyaN ophiic'iya yo. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Dec 12 16:00:58 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:00:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Dec 12 16:59:59 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:59:59 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Dec 12 19:06:12 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:06:12 -0500 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <001701c83ce0$6e0c7470$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Some data from Crow bearing on ki-: The Crow cognate is chi (c^), and it generally has the meaning 'again' or 'return to the previous state'. axshe'e 'win from' chiaxshe'e 'win again' daksakshi' 'fit into' chilaksakshi' 'go back into place' Sometimes chi is infixed: a'akkapaa 'frozen' a'hchikapaa 'frozen again' a'apchi 'light a fire' a'hchipchi 'rekindle a fire' apa'ali 'grow' a'hchipaali 'grow again' These infixed examples suggest that the underlying form is hchi. Before stems whose first vowel is u chi becomes ku: du'tchi 'get, grab' kulutchi' 'take back' kuu' 'give' kukuu' 'give back' Chi 'again' is homophonous with chi 'possessive reflexive': dakaschi' 'carry in one's arms' chilakaaschi' 'carry one's own in one's arms' da'xpii 'embrace, hug' chilaxpi'i 'sit on one's own (as a hen sits on her eggs)' Sometimes it's hard to figure out if?a stem with chi has the meaning?'again' or 'possessive reflexive': baki'i 'beg' chiwaki'i 'pray' 'beg again (and again)'? 'beg for one's own'? I do not find chi with the meaning 'become' in Crow. However, things are different in Hidatsa.? I have a paper (unpublished?) by Wes Jones entitled "Phonology and semantics of the (h)ki prefixes in Hidatsa (Mandan, Dakota).? He lists several different meanings for this?prefix in Hidatsa: 1) come into the state (mutative) 2) act again (iterative) 3) move back/to one's own (vertitive) 4) act on one's own object (middle voice) 1) mutative: miicawe'ec 'I am warm' miikicawe'ec 'I'm getting warm' 2) iterative: pa'hcakic 'he cut it' kipa'hcakic 'he re-cut it' 3) vertitive: ata'aric 'he went out' kata'aric 'he went back out' 4) middle voice (possessive reflexive): rahxu'kic 'comb' kirahxu'kic 'comb one's own (e.g., hair)' Hope this is helpful! Randy -----Original Message----- From: Jan Ullrich To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 9:59 am Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Dec 12 20:06:45 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:06:45 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) & ki- "to turn (again) into" Message-ID: (Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote) > As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" > (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", > "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". > Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous > to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. > > Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _slolkiyA_ - > "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) > are used. Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this personality's great work!). Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below) where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a slightly different "hue". As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two threads, might be rooted in the same "soil". I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view? Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Brave against the enemy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 23071 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 09:54:06 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:54:06 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (quoting Bob) >Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 10:22:45 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <787181.5455.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina, I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the "non-vertitive" verbs. u -> ku hi -> gli ya -> gla i -> khi The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' (quoting Bob) >Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Thu Dec 13 14:02:44 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:02:44 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <001701c83d72$1a3c3aa0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > Regina, > > I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the > impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the > "non-vertitive" verbs. > > u -> ku > hi -> gli > ya -> gla > i -> khi > > The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back > there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the > aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? > > Jan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > (quoting Bob) >> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, > Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial > vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with > the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. > > Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is > that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface > in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go > home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes > itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the > POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, > place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively > attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed > myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are > that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. > Regina > > > "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from > the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of > accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of > languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, > cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always > applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all > of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally > proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to > think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. > > Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of > the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland > has done interesting recent work on how they structure. > > This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, > as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few > cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing > to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are > conjugated. I hope someone will ask. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET > Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. > >> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with > verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively > productive use with non-motion verbs. > > Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- > with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur > with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is > a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of > course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be > analyzed as a vertitive. > >> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its > (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only > invariant ki-. > > At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities > that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are > strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages > as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the > situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan > in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic > behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. > > Regina > > "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders > in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears > that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive > than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I > have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is > in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs > immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a > homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of > these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. > > All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with > verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively > productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences > in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem > to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I > would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in > any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to > get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the > syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) > extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich > Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' > > > > I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is > not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to > come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this > meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in > Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History > texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the > story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. > > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to > become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in > kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines > kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had > appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) > woman again' > > In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I > am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words > come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and > cross checking. > > > >> ki-ska 'to turn white' > > > > Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to > an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN > owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted > (those things) with colors they often faded' > > > >> ki-suta 'to get hard' > > > > 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he > melted became hard again' > > > >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > > > > 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this > is often used for 'to sober up' > > > >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > > > > This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > > > >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' > >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > > > These are all somewhat surprising to me. > > > > Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active > verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a > stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the > ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover > from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased > with' 1s: iyomakiphi). > > Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? > > > > Jan > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > it now. > > > > > > _____ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find > ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Dec 13 14:11:36 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:11:36 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For what it's worth, I agree with David on this one. The meaning 'toward home' is derived from the meaning 'back again'. I know it's not really relevant, but you have exactly the same derivation in Athabascan. Willem Quoting ROOD DAVID S : > > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the > basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back > (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- > 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' > anywhere around. > From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 14:18:58 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:18:58 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over > and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came > back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put > my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? Would be good to know. Jan From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:10:19 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:10:19 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <003a01c83d93$1a1cefd0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I > sided with, but perhaps it is. > Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the > vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? > I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam > filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 16:26:03 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:26:03 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 17:45:41 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:45:41 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <004801c83da4$daf55060$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (Jan) >Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a >common source? That's precisely what I was wondering when I was reading Jan's last contribution to the list. My feeling about vertitive ki- 'go back' and possessive ki- with a possible interpretation 'go home' is that they are not that far apart semantically. My recent work on Lakota motion verbs suggests that the ones that historically contain ki- do not have to interpreted that narrowly as referring only to 'home' as destination. It is sufficient if the agent has some kind of more or less abstract connection with the destination, which could be rendered by 'place where he/she belongs'. The destination with such verbs could, for instance, be the birthplace of the agent, even if the agent doesn't live there at the moment of utterance. I still think that this implies a possessive connection of some sort. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 19:51:08 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:51:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <212345.30527.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina and Jan's thoughts (possessive~vertitive), as Jan points out, are not necessarily in contradiction with David's and Willem's. We have to extricate the diachronic from the synchronic. Postulate first that the two /ki/ are indeed historically identical. 1) We don't *know* for sure what the original meaning of /ki/ was. The fact that it has similarities of meaning in all or most Siouan languages does not mean that this meaning itself wasn't historically derived from an earlier one, for instance. 2) Given (1), we don't have to stipulate that "vertitive came from possessive", only that "both vertitive and possessive came from the same source, whatever that may be". 3) If we *do* stipulate "vertitive came from possessive", there is independent support for this in the fact that vertitivity is more "naturally" semantically related to verbs of motion than possession is. There is reason to think disparate languages, let alone genetically related languages, could independently follow the path from possessive to vertitive in motion verbs while not following this path in other verbs. Grammaticisation, baby! In other words, possessive /ki/ may well have initially attached to verbs of motion as well as non-motion verbs in some common ancestor, and then in daughter languages followed separate but independent trajectories towards vertitivity in motion verbs alone. These trajectories would have occurred after /ki/ had lost its initial productivity, thus explaining why vertitive /ki/ has never been productive. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Fri Dec 14 00:10:57 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:10:57 +1100 Subject: Fwd: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) & ki- "to turn (again) into" Message-ID: > Very interesting quote & accompanying thoughts, Alfred! > > First of all, thanks for recommending greater in-depth analysis of > E. A-O-H's style to the attention of the Siouan List-members. You > already know (perhaps 'ad nauseam'! ;) ) what I think of the > literary stature of this 'sui generis' Lakhota author, so I > appreciate very much your giving some serious consideration to his > writings! Besten Dank dafür! > > I would very much like to discuss this (& many other A-O-H > sentences & constructions) further, a little later. In the > meantime, what do you make of this attempt at a more literal > rendering of A-O-H's Lakhota? : > > Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Lakhota : > > "Hoks^ila kiN thaNchaN kiksuyes^ni hiNgle, thawachiN kiksuyes^ni > hiyu k'uN he iyechel, taku iyukcaNpi kta okihipi s^ni ogna > kiksuyes^ni. YunkhaN woeye kiN lena ---- ChaNte t'inza yo! --ChaNte > t'iNza yo! --- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte > t'iNza yo! ---- olowaN ogna chaNcheg^a uN iyaphapi nah^uN kiN uN > kiksuya hingle." > > > Ann Nolan Clark's original : > > "The boy's body had become numb, senseless to the passing of time > as his mind had become numb, senseless to the pain of thinking. The > phrase ---- "be brave!" --"be brave!--be brave!---be brave!--be > brave! ---- beat into his consciousness with the rhythmic > regularity of the pounding of a drum." > > > Another version : > > "The boy's body had suddenly become numb, even as his mind had > emerged (lit. :'come out of it (the experience)') into > insensibility, insensible in the sense (lit. 'by way of/in the > manner of') of an incapacity for thought of any kind. And then, all > of a sudden he became conscious of hearing the following words --- > "Be firm of heart!-- be firm of heart! -- be firm of heart! --be > firm of heart!--be firm of heart!" ---- pounded out on a drum in > the manner (lit. 'by way of') of a tune. ('in a sing-song way'??)." > > > Hmm, I wonder why he didn't deem it necessary to use "s'e" or > "sekse" (i.e. following 'iyaphapi') with that metaphor? Perhaps to > emphasize the intensity of the boy's "stunned" state of mind & > emotion in his grief at his grandfather's impending death, a kind > of giddiness, or temporary derangement of the senses, underlining > the virtual reality of the sounds he hears within? > > > Incidentally, I very much like your suggestion of a likely > etymological relationship between the roots of kiksuyA ('remember/ > call to mind/be mindful, conscious of'), kiksuyes^ni 'insensible/ > unaware/unconscious/unfeeling/insensitive', and of ksuyeyA ('hurt/ > inflict injury); ksuyayapi ('be hurt/injured'), etc.. That seems > fairly persuasive, imho. > There is also, apparently, a verb : 'waksuyeyA/waksuyewaye' ('HURT > people's FEELINGS') on hand to strengthen your case there. > > Might that be E. A-O-H's way of rendering at least some flavour of > Clark's "senseless to the pain of thinking", which may (possibly) > be too 'alien' a metaphor for a Lakhota speaker? > Could it be as well, that E. A-O-K deemed that other idea : > "senseless to the passing of time", excessive, or artistically > superfluous in some way? > I too am wondering why he didn't attempt translation! > Also that 'ki-' prefix in the B&D's original sense of 'back again' > seems to be operating in a similar way to 're-' in 'remember/ > remembrance', isn't it? > Reminds me a little (etymologically) of the French word : > "ressentiment", for some reason! > Do you recall the way Thomas Hobbes once brilliantly defined memory > ('Leviathan' (1651): Part 1; ch.2) as "DECAYING SENSE"? > He went on to characterize "Remembrance" as : > "Calling to mind : the Latines call it 'Reminiscentia', as it were > a Re-conning of our former actions." (ibid. Part 1; ch.3) Wish > English was still written like that! > Lastly, here is an interesting germane passage from another of Emil > Afraid-Of-Hawk's translations of Ann NOLAN CLARK. > It occurs in the beautiful "There Still Are Buffalo" (NahaNh^ci Pte > YukhaNpi) (1942), (which I can only characterize, albeit somewhat > unscientifically, as a sort of extended poetic rhapsody in praise > of the Buffalo's life-cycle & mystical symbolism to the Oyate!) > Once more, to provide context & to give some idea of the talents of > BOTH writers, I will quote at some length : [from Section XV, pp. > 68-69] : > "Waniyetu kin thate h^upahu kin uN > kiyaN iyopte kiN iyecheca. > Waniyetu kiN hena iyopta upi. > Mag^az^us^ni kiN iyokhiheya manita ona thaNka he. > ChaNkhe waMakas^kaN kiN iyuha pheta ile ye kiN > kaithokap naphapi, > kholakichiyapi na thokakichiyapi, > k'eyas^ ichisakip, > WACHIGNUNIYAN > na IC'IKSUYAPI S^NI, > nipi kta uN he ogna echela, > inah^ni ichinaphapi. > YunkhaN uNgnahela mag^az^u ahi. > YunkhaN WakhaNthaNka/ thais^taminyaNyaNpi kiN uN > makhoche kiN thaopi s'elecheca kiN uN > woyazaN kiN asniye kiN he iyecheca. > Mag^az^u na ohakap icamna ahi....." Ann NOLAN CLARK's original reads : "The Years blow by on the wings of the wind. The years pass by. Drought is followed by prairie fire. The animals run before the flames, friend and foe, side by side, their brains NUMB, their hearts UNFEELING, only their instincts to live urging them onward. Then rain comes like the tears of the Great Mystery, healing the pain of the wounded world. Snow follows rain....." Alles Gute, Clive. > > > > > On 13/12/2007, at 7:06 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > >> >> (Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote) >> >> > As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan >> "concept" of "feeling" >> > (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do >> with "mind", >> > "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense >> perception". >> > Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for >> anything; desirous >> > to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) >> B.-M. >> > >> > Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs >> _slolkiyA_ - >> > "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be >> conscious"(!) >> > are used. >> >> >> Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and >> penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although >> I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this >> personality's great work!). >> Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for >> further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across >> the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below) >> where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a >> slightly different "hue". >> >> As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two >> threads, might be rooted in the same "soil". >> I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view? >> >> Alfred >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 14 03:54:36 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:54:36 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: Randy, That's really useful because it shows that chi- is in a prefix series preceding the instrumental prefix series. This sort of thing has been very hard to determine in the other language since 'vertitive' never co-occurred with an instrumental prefix (Crow dak- in this instance). Thanks! If chi-/hchi- is an extension of common Siouan 'vertitive', the Crow data answer a bunch of questions. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Wed 12/12/2007 1:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Some data from Crow bearing on ki-: The Crow cognate is chi (c^), and it generally has the meaning 'again' or 'return to the previous state'. axshe'e 'win from' chiaxshe'e 'win again' daksakshi' 'fit into' chilaksakshi' 'go back into place' Sometimes chi is infixed: a'akkapaa 'frozen' a'hchikapaa 'frozen again' a'apchi 'light a fire' a'hchipchi 'rekindle a fire' apa'ali 'grow' a'hchipaali 'grow again' These infixed examples suggest that the underlying form is hchi. Before stems whose first vowel is u chi becomes ku: du'tchi 'get, grab' kulutchi' 'take back' kuu' 'give' kukuu' 'give back' Chi 'again' is homophonous with chi 'possessive reflexive': dakaschi' 'carry in one's arms' chilakaaschi' 'carry one's own in one's arms' da'xpii 'embrace, hug' chilaxpi'i 'sit on one's own (as a hen sits on her eggs)' Sometimes it's hard to figure out if a stem with chi has the meaning 'again' or 'possessive reflexive': baki'i 'beg' chiwaki'i 'pray' 'beg again (and again)'? 'beg for one's own'? I do not find chi with the meaning 'become' in Crow. However, things are different in Hidatsa. I have a paper (unpublished?) by Wes Jones entitled "Phonology and semantics of the (h)ki prefixes in Hidatsa (Mandan, Dakota). He lists several different meanings for this prefix in Hidatsa: 1) come into the state (mutative) 2) act again (iterative) 3) move back/to one's own (vertitive) 4) act on one's own object (middle voice) 1) mutative: miicawe'ec 'I am warm' miikicawe'ec 'I'm getting warm' 2) iterative: pa'hcakic 'he cut it' kipa'hcakic 'he re-cut it' 3) vertitive: ata'aric 'he went out' kata'aric 'he went back out' 4) middle voice (possessive reflexive): rahxu'kic 'comb' kirahxu'kic 'comb one's own (e.g., hair)' Hope this is helpful! Randy -----Original Message----- From: Jan Ullrich To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 9:59 am Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu ] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 14 04:21:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:21:49 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: All, Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. More later as things get back to normal here. Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Fri Dec 14 05:23:07 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, my sympathies with the weather issues. It's bad enough here (we've had record snow for this much of December, although November was way below normal), mostly due to too many people trying to do stupid things, but at least we've retained our electricity. Global warming is doing more than just heating up the arctic, I guess. My wife and daughter spent 3 weeks of November in Antarctica, where the snow is melting later and more slowly than they're used to. The penguins were having a hard time finding snow-free places in which to gather stones to make their nests; they're ready to lay their eggs but many of them are having to do so in the nmelted snow, which is fatal apparently. I gave up trying to unite the various "ki"s a long time ago, but I don't have the comparative perspective you do, and my instincts are that they all must have some common source --- the meanings and the positions are just too similar for any other hypothesis. I'm quite sure that kic^hi 'reciprocal' and ic^'i reflexive are mixed up in there too, somehow. But the various kinds of syncope have messed things up terribly, and I think there are some plain "i" morphemes getting in the way as well. The problem with Lakhota "khi" is that it's the vertative of "i", not of "hi". The latter's vertative is gli. I vaguely recall Allan claiming that "khi" preserves an initial "*h" that was otherwise lost everywhere in Lakhota; today's initial "h"s come from something else. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > All, > > Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. > > I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. > > If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? > > I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. > > More later as things get back to normal here. > > Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich > Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > > David, > > Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical > and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do > agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". > Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a > common source? > > Jan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > > Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; > become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and > distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme > > in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply > the > cross-linguistic data for that. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> >>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >>> basic >> >>> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. >> Over >>> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and >> came >>> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. >> >> I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I >> didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > >> I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- >> that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > >> the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread >> as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. >> >>> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't >> put >>> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >> >> Would be good to know. >> >> Jan >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: > 13.12.2007 9:15 > > > > > From BARudes at aol.com Sat Dec 15 03:52:10 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:52:10 EST Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2007 11:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: All, Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. More later as things get back to normal here. Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 Bob is correct as far as Catawban (Catawba and Woccon) is concerned. There are no prefixes having the form ki- or anything demonstrably akin to it that carry meanings comparable to the vertitive, possessive, or dative in these languages. The only prefix remotely similar is the Catawba locative proclitic duk- 'back' which is used to form verb stems such as duk=hu:- 'come back, return' and duk=ra:- 'go back, return'. Given Catawban phonology, duk- should come from earlier *ruk= or *nuk=, and the final *k might be cognate with the vertitive in Siouan although there is no good explanation for where the initial *ru- or *nu- might have come from. Blair **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 15 17:07:47 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:07:47 +0000 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether vertative and possessive could not be the same in origin in that it expresses some prior relationship between the subject/actor of the verb and the object of the verb with possessive and the destination in the case of a vertative. The gl- form of the prefix occurs in both as in gluha, gluza 'have ones own, hold one's own' and gli 'arrive back' and gla 'go back'. Bruce ROOD DAVID S wrote: Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I > sided with, but perhaps it is. > Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the > vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? > I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam > filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 15 19:35:57 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:35:57 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <544925.63783.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest over ki-. May I perhaps solicit members' opinion over another prefix, namely -ichi-, which is one I have difficulty in finding a name for and have referred to, in the absence of any better term, as ditransitive/reciprocal. In the ditransitive usage it seems to have an actor and two objects and the actor acts upon one object by means of the other or acts upon both in relation to each other as in ichiwanyanka 'see one thing in relation to another, compare' and ichicahi 'mix one thing with another' ichiiyopheya 'exchange one thing for another'. In the reciprocal usage it seems to only involve inanimates as in ichicas^ka 'be tied to each other', ichicakinza 'be rubbed together making a creaking sound'. There do not seem to be very many examples, though members may know of others. I would be interested to know if the form occurs in other Siouan languages and whether there is a term for it. Bruce --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 00:31:25 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:31:25 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, in October 1976. I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a couple of questions of my own to put to List members about the odd detail. Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information given will be "old news" to scholars here! Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, Mandan, Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & Catawba are lacking.) After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic motion stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 (THERE); MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 refer only to the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception of motion, to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these basic stems to form various additional transitive & intransitive stems. One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the underlying shape k. Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or TO AN EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks in passing that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its first appearance in print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his unpublished Mandan Dictionary (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates the four basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] - (THERE); MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives bracketed) : DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] (THERE); PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA [gliglA] (THERE). Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; "pass by on the way coming here [home]"? Or have I got myself into another fine (logical) mess? Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. 289-290, Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) observations regarding "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed by the addition of the vertative k prefix : "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form of the simple stems.(......) Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface forms. ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' hi ' and ' ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the vertative prefix is present. Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the vertative and non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' u' (to be coming), ' hi ' (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be going). (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms shows, however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need further refinement. Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , are of two kinds. On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / l / and / y / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we have just seen. On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / l / and / h / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent the same underlying liquid, since the following vowels are different, but ' L ' might also represent different liquids in those two stems. For the moment, we will consider that the two ' L's ' are identical, although one may have to be changed on the basis of comparative evidence. The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when the inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' has a perfectly regular inflection today, a now obsolete, apparently regular paradigm for this verb shows ' phu ' in the first person singular. The earlier underlying form of this stem has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants as ' (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? Regards, Clive. P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship the tragic & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, was! May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescas in pace. On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the > basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back > (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- > 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' > anywhere around. > > Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I > can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> Regina, >> >> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >> "non-vertitive" verbs. >> >> u -> ku >> hi -> gli >> ya -> gla >> i -> khi >> >> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to >> arrive back >> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the >> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >> >> >> (quoting Bob) >>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota >>> gli, >> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, >> with >> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >> >> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is >> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really >> surface >> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow >> imposes >> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the >> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply >> 'home, >> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't >> immersed >> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so >> chances are >> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. >> Regina >> >> >> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >> >> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from >> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of >> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is >> gi-li, >> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always >> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd >> reconstruct all >> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to >> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >> >> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details >> some of >> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda >> Cumberland >> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >> >> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting >> to me, >> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few >> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply >> failing >> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are >> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >> >> >> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >> >>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' >>> with >> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a >> relatively >> productive use with non-motion verbs. >> >> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive >> ki- >> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does >> occur >> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless >> there is >> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be >> analyzed as a vertitive. >> >>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >> invariant ki-. >> >> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities >> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan >> languages >> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in >> Siouan >> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >> >> Regina >> >> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >> >> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix >> orders >> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears >> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the >> vertitive >> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of >> ki- I >> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan >> cases) is >> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs >> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some >> posit a >> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of >> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >> >> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' >> with >> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two >> differences >> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does >> not seem >> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I >> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not >> occur in >> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to >> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the >> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >> (apparent) >> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant >> ki-. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >> >> >> >> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is >> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini >> 'to >> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with >> this >> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- >> given in >> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible >> History >> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >> >> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the >> meaning 'to >> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for >> instance in >> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had >> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) >> woman again' >> >> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. >> So I >> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the >> words >> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >> cross checking. >> >> >> >>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> >> >> >> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to >> return to >> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN >> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >> (those things) with colors they often faded' >> >> >> >>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> >> >> >> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he >> melted became hard again' >> >> >> >>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> >> >> >> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', >> this >> is often used for 'to sober up' >> >> >> >>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> >> >> >> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. >> >> >> >>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> >>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> >>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> >>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> >>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> >> >> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >> >> >> >> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an >> active >> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of >> the >> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover >> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >> >> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your >> list? >> >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. >> Try >> it now. >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >> > newsear >> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 00:47:18 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:47:18 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <4E997509-09D8-4F10-91CF-90BB04058F39@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: My sincere apologies for misspelling ALLAN's first name! Regretfully, Clive Bloomfield. On 17/12/2007, at 11:31 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > AL(L)AN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, > in October 1976. > >>> From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Dec 17 05:04:59 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:04:59 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <4E997509-09D8-4F10-91CF-90BB04058F39@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, Allan Taylor is alive and well and very active, but not doing much with Siouan. He retired several years ago and is now very busy gardening (he was always a semi-professional botanist, working particularly hard to breed hardier varieties of plants that don't normally survive our winters; he just came back from several weeks touring old growth oak stands in Japan), playing with his 7 grandchildren, and reverting to his original Amerindian role, that of Algonquianist. He's working on a very detailed grammar of Atsina (Gros Ventre). I see him 3-4 times a year. Thanks for your summary -- I may or may not have a chance to think it through. There is no direction contrast for "hiyaya" 'to pass by', but the inceptive (start moving) verb for 'go there' is reduplicated iyaya. So the six basic verbs are: start on the way arrive here hiyu u hi there iyaya ya i And their vertatives follow the same pattern: glicu ku gli iglagla gla khi David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, in October > 1976. > > I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a couple of > questions of my own to put to List members about the odd detail. > Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information given will > be "old news" to scholars here! > > Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, Mandan, > Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & Catawba are lacking.) > After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic motion > stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : > > ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 (THERE); > > MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). > > He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 refer only to > the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. > Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception of motion, > to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). > "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these basic stems to > form various additional transitive & intransitive stems. > One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the underlying > shape k. > Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or TO AN > EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) > > Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks in passing > that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its first appearance in > print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his unpublished Mandan Dictionary > (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). > > In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates the four > basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : > > ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] - (THERE); > > MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); > > > Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives bracketed) : > > DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] (THERE); > > PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA [gliglA] (THERE). > > Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; "pass by on > the way coming here [home]"? > > Or have I got myself into another fine (logical) mess? > > > Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. 289-290, > Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) observations > regarding > "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed by the > addition of the vertative k prefix : > > "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form of the > simple stems.(......) > Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface forms. > ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' hi ' and ' > ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the vertative prefix is > present. > Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the vertative and > non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' u' (to be coming), ' hi ' > (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be going). > (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) > Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms shows, > however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need further > refinement. > Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , are of two > kinds. > On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / l / and / y > / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we have just seen. > On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / l / and / h > / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. > ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent the same > underlying liquid, since the following vowels are different, but ' L ' might > also represent different liquids in those two stems. For the moment, we will > consider that the two ' L's ' are identical, although one may have to be > changed on the basis of comparative evidence. > The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when the > inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' has a perfectly > regular inflection today, a now obsolete, apparently regular paradigm for > this verb shows ' phu ' in the first person singular. The earlier underlying > form of this stem has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." > > Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants as ' > (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? > > Regards, > > Clive. > > P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship the tragic > & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, was! > May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : Requiem > aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescas in pace. > > > On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. >> >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: >> >>> Regina, >>> >>> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >>> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >>> "non-vertitive" verbs. >>> >>> u -> ku >>> hi -> gli >>> ya -> gla >>> i -> khi >>> >>> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back >>> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the >>> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>> >>> >>> (quoting Bob) >>>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, >>> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >>> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with >>> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >>>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>> >>> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is >>> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface >>> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >>> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes >>> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the >>> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, >>> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >>> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed >>> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are >>> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. >>> Regina >>> >>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>> >>> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from >>> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >>> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of >>> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, >>> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always >>> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all >>> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >>> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to >>> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>> >>> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of >>> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland >>> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >>> >>> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, >>> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few >>> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing >>> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are >>> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>> >>> >>> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >>> >>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with >>> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >>> productive use with non-motion verbs. >>> >>> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- >>> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur >>> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is >>> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >>> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be >>> analyzed as a vertitive. >>> >>>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >>> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >>> invariant ki-. >>> >>> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities >>> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >>> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages >>> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >>> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan >>> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >>> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >>> >>> Regina >>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>> >>> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders >>> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears >>> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive >>> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I >>> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is >>> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs >>> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a >>> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of >>> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >>> >>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with >>> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >>> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences >>> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem >>> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I >>> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in >>> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to >>> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the >>> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) >>> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is >>> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to >>> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this >>> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in >>> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History >>> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >>> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >>> >>> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to >>> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in >>> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >>> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had >>> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) >>> woman again' >>> >>> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I >>> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words >>> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >>> cross checking. >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >>> >>> >>> >>> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to >>> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN >>> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >>> (those things) with colors they often faded' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >>> >>> >>> >>> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he >>> melted became hard again' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >>> >>> >>> >>> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this >>> is often used for 'to sober up' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >>> >>> >>> >>> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >>> >>>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >>> >>>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >>> >>>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >>> >>>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >>> >>> >>> >>> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active >>> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >>> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the >>> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover >>> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >>> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >>> >>> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try >>> it now. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >>> >> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >>> >>> > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 05:30:16 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:30:16 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh dear, oh dear! Thank you David - it seems I've been grotesquely misinformed! I hope Allan's sense of humour is a keen one. Now, it appears, I given him a reason to say, in the illustrious company of Mark Twain : "rumours of my demise have been much exaggerated"! Not all of us get that chance, eh? But seriously, I beg his pardon, and that of everybody here! I am absolutely mortified with embarassment! Clive. (goodbye cruel world!) On 17/12/2007, at 4:04 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Clive, > Allan Taylor is alive and well and very active, but not doing much > with Siouan. He retired several years ago and is now very busy > gardening (he was always a semi-professional botanist, working > particularly hard to breed hardier varieties of plants that don't > normally survive our winters; he just came back from several weeks > touring old growth oak stands in Japan), playing with his 7 > grandchildren, and reverting to his original Amerindian role, that > of Algonquianist. He's working on a very detailed grammar of > Atsina (Gros Ventre). I see him 3-4 times a year. > Thanks for your summary -- I may or may not have a chance to think > it through. > There is no direction contrast for "hiyaya" 'to pass by', but the > inceptive (start moving) verb for 'go there' is reduplicated > iyaya. So the six basic verbs are: > start on the way arrive > > here hiyu u hi > > there iyaya ya i > > > And their vertatives follow the same pattern: > > glicu ku gli > iglagla gla khi > > > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, >> in October 1976. >> >> I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a >> couple of questions of my own to put to List members about the odd >> detail. >> Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information >> given will be "old news" to scholars here! >> >> Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, >> Mandan, Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & >> Catawba are lacking.) >> After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic >> motion stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : >> >> ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 >> (THERE); >> >> MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). >> >> He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 >> refer only to the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. >> Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception >> of motion, to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). >> "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these >> basic stems to form various additional transitive & intransitive >> stems. >> One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the >> underlying shape k. >> Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or >> TO AN EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) >> >> Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks >> in passing that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its >> first appearance in print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his >> unpublished Mandan Dictionary (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). >> >> In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates >> the four basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : >> >> ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] >> - (THERE); >> >> MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); >> >> >> Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives >> bracketed) : >> >> DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] >> (THERE); >> >> PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA >> [gliglA] (THERE). >> >> Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; >> "pass by on the way coming here [home]"? >> >> Or have I got myself into another fine >> (logical) mess? >> >> >> Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. >> 289-290, Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) >> observations regarding >> "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed >> by the addition of the vertative k prefix : >> >> "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form >> of the simple stems.(......) >> Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface >> forms. >> ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' >> hi ' and ' ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the >> vertative prefix is present. >> Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the >> vertative and non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' >> u' (to be coming), ' hi ' (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be >> going). >> (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) >> Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms >> shows, however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need >> further refinement. >> Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , >> are of two kinds. >> On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / >> l / and / y / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we >> have just seen. >> On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / >> l / and / h / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. >> ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent >> the same underlying liquid, since the following vowels are >> different, but ' L ' might also represent different liquids in >> those two stems. For the moment, we will consider that the two ' >> L's ' are identical, although one may have to be changed on the >> basis of comparative evidence. >> The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when >> the inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' >> has a perfectly regular inflection today, a now obsolete, >> apparently regular paradigm for this verb shows ' phu ' in the >> first person singular. The earlier underlying form of this stem >> has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." >> >> Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants >> as ' (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? >> >> Regards, >> >> Clive. >> >> P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship >> the tragic & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, >> was! >> May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : >> Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. >> Requiescas in pace. >> >> >> On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >>> basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back >>> (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." >>> -- 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of >>> 'home' anywhere around. >>> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I >>> can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: >>>> Regina, >>>> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >>>> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >>>> "non-vertitive" verbs. >>>> u -> ku >>>> hi -> gli >>>> ya -> gla >>>> i -> khi >>>> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to >>>> arrive back >>>> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for >>>> the >>>> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >>>> Jan >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>>> (quoting Bob) >>>>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > >>>>> Lakota gli, >>>> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >>>> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan >>>> *ki-, with >>>> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I >>>> guess it >>>>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>>> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental >>>> connection is >>>> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really >>>> surface >>>> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >>>> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow >>>> imposes >>>> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually >>>> the >>>> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply >>>> 'home, >>>> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >>>> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't >>>> immersed >>>> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so >>>> chances are >>>> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative >>>> data. >>>> Regina >>>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>>> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems >>>> from >>>> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >>>> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of >>>> view of >>>> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation) >>>> is gi-li, >>>> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope >>>> always >>>> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd >>>> reconstruct all >>>> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >>>> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. >>>> Come to >>>> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>>> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details >>>> some of >>>> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda >>>> Cumberland >>>> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >>>> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting >>>> to me, >>>> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the >>>> very few >>>> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply >>>> failing >>>> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how >>>> they are >>>> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >>>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>>> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >>>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- >>>>> 'vertitive' with >>>> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a >>>> relatively >>>> productive use with non-motion verbs. >>>> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of >>>> vertitive ki- >>>> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' >>>> does occur >>>> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless >>>> there is >>>> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >>>> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' >>>> cannot be >>>> analyzed as a vertitive. >>>>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while >>>>> its >>>> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve >>>> only >>>> invariant ki-. >>>> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological >>>> irregularities >>>> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >>>> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan >>>> languages >>>> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >>>> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in >>>> Siouan >>>> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >>>> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >>>> Regina >>>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>>> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix >>>> orders >>>> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it >>>> appears >>>> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the >>>> vertitive >>>> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use >>>> of ki- I >>>> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan >>>> cases) is >>>> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that >>>> occurs >>>> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some >>>> posit a >>>> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to >>>> think of >>>> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- >>>> 'vertitive' with >>>> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a >>>> relatively >>>> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two >>>> differences >>>> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does >>>> not seem >>>> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. >>>> Otherwise I >>>> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not >>>> occur in >>>> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g- >>>> luzahaN 'to >>>> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So >>>> the >>>> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >>>> (apparent) >>>> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >>>> invariant ki-. >>>> Bob >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >>>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >>>> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix >>>> ki- is >>>> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice >>>> kini 'to >>>> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used >>>> with this >>>> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- >>>> given in >>>> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible >>>> History >>>> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >>>> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >>>> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the >>>> meaning 'to >>>> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for >>>> instance in >>>> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >>>> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale >>>> had >>>> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a >>>> (respectable) >>>> woman again' >>>> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not >>>> productive. So I >>>> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the >>>> words >>>> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >>>> cross checking. >>>>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >>>> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to >>>> return to >>>> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... >>>> oowa uN >>>> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >>>> (those things) with colors they often faded' >>>>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >>>> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The >>>> bullets he >>>> melted became hard again' >>>>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >>>> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's >>>> senses', this >>>> is often used for 'to sober up' >>>>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >>>> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common >>>> phrase. >>>>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >>>>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >>>>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >>>>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >>>>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >>>> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >>>> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an >>>> active >>>> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >>>> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some >>>> of the >>>> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to >>>> recover >>>> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >>>> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >>>> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your >>>> list? >>>> Jan >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! >>>> Mobile. Try >>>> it now. >>>> _____ >>>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >>>> >>> newsear >>>> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >> From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 15:58:01 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:58:01 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <512691.58696.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here's some more data on ichi-. In most cases, the prefix denotes physical contact in these examples. ichi-yugmuNpi 'they twist them together' ichi-kak'og^e 'to come together and rub against' ichi-wakayeg^e 'I sewed them together' ichi-kas^kapi 'they tie them togther' ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' ichi-makhokapi 'I am linked to them, hooked up to them' ichi-glepi 'they put them together' ichi-wagle 'I stacked them on top of each other, like books, or: next to each other on a shelf' ichi- also appears as prefix to postpositions: ichi-khaNyela uNthipi 'we are camping together' It gets quite interesting when ichi- is contrasted with the reciprocal kichi-. kichi- is the "real" reciprocal in Lakota, both in terms of meaning as well as in terms of productivity. Any transitive verb that admits a reciprocal reading is acceptable with kichi- in my data. ichi- is far less productive than kichi-, but sometimes there's minimal pairs like the ones below: iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' ichi-chuwapi 'they run against each other for office, *they chase each other' kichi-khuwapi 'they chase each other, like kids, *they run against each other for office' (no detectable difference in meaning) ichi-kag^ipi 'they care about each other' i-kichi-kag^ipi 'they care about each other' ichi- also occurs with intransitives: ichi-thokecha 'they are different from each other' (on the assumption that thokecha 'different' is not actually transitive). All in all, ichi- seems to express a relationship which is much more vaguely reciprocal than a relationship coded by kichi-, to the point at which there is no real reciprocity involved at all, but rather, just the notion of contact or more abstract concepts such as comparison. I'm still trying to come up with the reasonable terminological label for ichi- that Bruce has requested. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest over ki-. May I perhaps solicit members' opinion over another prefix, namely -ichi-, which is one I have difficulty in finding a name for and have referred to, in the absence of any better term, as ditransitive/reciprocal. In the ditransitive usage it seems to have an actor and two objects and the actor acts upon one object by means of the other or acts upon both in relation to each other as in ichiwanyanka 'see one thing in relation to another, compare' and ichicahi 'mix one thing with another' ichiiyopheya 'exchange one thing for another'. In the reciprocal usage it seems to only involve inanimates as in ichicas^ka 'be tied to each other', ichicakinza 'be rubbed together making a creaking sound'. There do not seem to be very many examples, though members may know of others. I would be interested to know if the form occurs in other Siouan languages and whether there is a term for it. Bruce --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Dec 17 16:25:29 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:25:29 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <457638.59594.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Regina, that is a nice and representative list and is also well in line with my findings. The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. but I think the two of us have discussed that before. > ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. Khoyaka and its derivatives have a very hight number of fast speech variants and idiolectal forms which might be difficult to decipher at times. > iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' > a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. I also agree that ichi is much less productive today and in fact some speakers tend to replace it with i- in some cases, so for 'to compare things' some say ichiwanyanka while others say iwanyanka. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 21:06:24 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:06:24 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <000601c840c9$70702120$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (quoting Jan) >The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would >get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. With some ichi-forms I have in my files, there is free variation between subsequnt palatalization and non-palatalization. But yes, we have discussed that before, it's something that varies from verb to verb, from dialect to dialect, and possibly from speaker to speaker. >> ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' > I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. So would I. At least khoyaka is the only version of this verb I know. But sometimes the short forms have become the new standard, and the're worth quoting as such, Just think of the realizations of plural -pi. In some phonetic environments, the full form -pi is not acceptable to native speakers any more. >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: Hi Regina, that is a nice and representative list and is also well in line with my findings. The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. but I think the two of us have discussed that before. > ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. Khoyaka and its derivatives have a very hight number of fast speech variants and idiolectal forms which might be difficult to decipher at times. > iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' > a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. I also agree that ichi is much less productive today and in fact some speakers tend to replace it with i- in some cases, so for 'to compare things' some say ichiwanyanka while others say iwanyanka. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 22:11:19 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:11:19 +1100 Subject: another Siouan question + 'AHI' In-Reply-To: <43DBC14D-63C2-449E-99A1-358128E4E29E@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 08/12/2007, at 9:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > From (Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's) Lakhota version of Ann Nolan Clark's > "BRINGER OF THE MYSTERY DOG" (1941) > > On Page 62 (ibid.) : To provide some context : Little Dog, the boy protagonist, has left home on a lone quest to earn his manhood-name, and has just come across some interesting tracks : those of a man, accompanied by some mysterious large four-footed animal. He now recalls having heard stories told to his elders by visitors from friendly bands, of strange beasts, dog-like, but much larger, (s^uNka wakhaNpi) which could be made to carry burdens on their backs. His previous excitement at witnessing a buffalo hunt, now pales into insignificance. > > 1) : "(S^uNka Cik'ala lila waNkayeic'iye.) Ithokap taku ok'oka > woawachiN ichaNteiyapha k'uN he woawachiN lechala kin AHI > ichiyutakunis^ni na lila sutaya yuze." > > 2) : [=(Little Dog jumped high into the air.) His present state of > emotions, WHEN JUXTAPOSED WITH (lit : 'brought to')(??) the > excitement which had struck his heart previously, > diminished (that) by comparison (ichi- 'together") to > nothingness/annihilated the latter by comparison (??), and held him > firmly in its grip.] > >> NOLAN CLARK's original English reads : >> 3) : "Little Dog jumped up. The excitement that he had felt before >> was nothing to that which clutched him now." I am by no means sure that, In my translation in 2), (which is an attempt to determine the exact significance of the Lakhota words), I am by no means sure that I have rendered that ('di-transitive'/'second reciprocal'?) "ichi-" verb-form correctly, and would appreciate any observations people might care to make on that, or on this sentence as a whole. I am also quite puzzled by the precise significance of 'ahi' in the sentence above, a word which seems to be so frequently used by this author in comparisons (or at least in juxtapositions of some kind), as to be almost a mannerism! (I am aware of the use of 'a-' compounded with verbs of motion to mean : "bring/convey', and also of 'ahi-' added to certain verbs to express direction, as detailed by B&D at p.96, Sect.115). Is 'ahi' being used in some sort of Serial-Verb construction here, I wonder? Is 'woawachiN lechala kiN' actually the subject of 'ichitakunishni' (as it is of 'yuze'), and 'ithokap........ichaNteiyapha k'uN' its object, as I thought? I will track down & post some other examples of sentences using 'ahi' by this author, when time permits. A note at the back of these old B.I.A. readers, by Willard W. Beatty, Director of Education, in July 1943, states : "The preparation of material in the native languages is under the immediate direction of Dr. EDWARD A. KENNARD, (.......) EMIL AFRAID- OF-HAWK, an experienced interpreter of the older generation, translated this series of books." An Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk is mentioned twice (pp. 84 & 89) in the biography "Fool's Crow" by Thomas E. Mails (Uni of Nebraska Press, 1979), as the father of Frank Fool's Crow's sweetheart & bride, Fannie Afraid-Of-Hawk, (Emil's youngest daughter), in the year 1916. Best regards, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Dec 17 22:12:16 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:12:16 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <834735.22617.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 23:51:28 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:51:28 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c840f9$e2926b20$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and kʰi are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually kʰi is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than kʰi, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: Íkkippehíⁿhiⁿxti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from íⁿbehiⁿ (pillow) íkkippaháⁿzhiwáthe - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from íbahaⁿ (know) wándaⁿ íkʰikʰaⁿtʰáⁿbi-amá - tied them together with it (150.17) from kʰaⁿtʰaⁿ (tie) Ankʰíkʰibanáⁿ - we run a race together (165.12) from kʰibanaⁿ (race) ékʰithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ékʰigthaⁿbi-amá - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from égthaⁿ (put something on something) Kʰigthádabi-amá. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) akʰígthiⁿ - sat together on it (421.3) from agthiⁿ (sit on something) ákʰithétte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from áthitte (cross), áthitta (across) akʰízhaⁿi - lay together (433.1) from azhaⁿ (lie on something) zháⁿkkiʔáⁿhe - situated lying together (627.3) from zhaⁿʔaⁿhe (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) ukʰíkʰie - talk together (very frequent word) from ukʰie (talk with someone) I think ankʰíkʰibanáⁿ provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between kʰi and kki. - Bryan James Gordon From BARudes at aol.com Tue Dec 18 03:23:55 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:23:55 EST Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: On a comparative-historical note, the grammatical categories of reflexive and reciprocal are not marked by distinct verbal affixes in Catawba (or, as far as one can discern from the limited data, in Woccon). Reflexive is marked by a possessive form of the noun root /-ha:k/ ‘body’ (e.g. /d’iha:k/ ‘myself’ , /y’iha:k/ ‘yourself’). Reciprocal is usually noted by implication or by a covert category (in the Whorfian sense), i.e., in is inherently present in a particular lexical (content) morpheme and there is no overt marker. However, there is an independent pronoun /‘iku/ ‘each other’ that appears in certain circumstances where a reciprocal meaning is required. Catawba /’iku/ may be related to Lakhota -ichi-. Blair **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 18 04:29:30 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:29:30 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: Bryan, Are you certain there is a /khi-/ prefix with a reflexive or reciprocal, etc. meaning in Omaha? I suspect Dorsey's transcription here. Kansa and Quapaw have kki- 'reflexive' and kkikki- 'recip.', both with /kk/, never /kh/. The only place I get /kh/ is with the syncopated form of the dative causative, k+hiye > /khiye/, but the k-h here is bimorphemic, not a unitary prefix. I defer to the folks who speak or are studying Omaha and Ponca on this, but I seriously suspect JOD's ear here. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon Sent: Mon 12/17/2007 5:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: another Siouan question Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and k?i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually k?i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than k?i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: Íkkippehí?hi?xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from í?behi? (pillow) íkkippahá?zhiwáthe - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from íbaha? (know) wánda? ík?ik?a?t?á?bi-amá - tied them together with it (150.17) from k?a?t?a? (tie) Ank?ík?ibaná? - we run a race together (165.12) from k?ibana? (race) ék?ithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ék?igtha?bi-amá - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from égtha? (put something on something) K?igthádabi-amá. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) ak?ígthi? - sat together on it (421.3) from agthi? (sit on something) ák?ithétte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from áthitte (cross), áthitta (across) ak?ízha?i - lay together (433.1) from azha? (lie on something) zhá?kki?á?he - situated lying together (627.3) from zha??a?he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) uk?ík?ie - talk together (very frequent word) from uk?ie (talk with someone) I think ank?ík?ibaná? provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k?i and kki. - Bryan James Gordon From linguista at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 21:14:15 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:14:15 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are quite possibly in the right about this. /kh/ versus /kk/ is probably the hardest distinction to hear, just for acoustic reasons (the chamber behind the closure being smaller than with any other distinction. My only recordings are from Roland Noear, and since he's hard of hearing he doesn't keep /kh/ and /kk/ very distinct either, so I wouldn't trust those recordings. The question goes to folks working with speakers in Nebraska, I would guess! - BJG 2007/12/17, Rankin, Robert L : > Bryan, > > Are you certain there is a /khi-/ prefix with a reflexive or reciprocal, etc. meaning in Omaha? I suspect Dorsey's transcription here. Kansa and Quapaw have kki- 'reflexive' and kkikki- 'recip.', both with /kk/, never /kh/. The only place I get /kh/ is with the syncopated form of the dative causative, k+hiye > /khiye/, but the k-h here is bimorphemic, not a unitary prefix. I defer to the folks who speak or are studying Omaha and Ponca on this, but I seriously suspect JOD's ear here. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon > Sent: Mon 12/17/2007 5:51 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: another Siouan question > > > > Bruce - > > I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and > Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and > they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a > general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. > > kki and k?i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time > distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that > it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some > regularities. Usually k?i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we > analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal > function sometimes. > > Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than > k?i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern > speakers. > > Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: > Íkkippehí?hi?xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) > from í?behi? (pillow) > íkkippahá?zhiwáthe - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) > from íbaha? (know) > wánda? ík?ik?a?t?á?bi-amá - tied them together with it (150.17) > from k?a?t?a? (tie) > Ank?ík?ibaná? - we run a race together (165.12) > from k?ibana? (race) > ék?ithe - related to one another (84.13) > from ethe (related) > ék?igtha?bi-amá - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) > from égtha? (put something on something) > K?igthádabi-amá. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) > from gthade (crawl up on someone) > ak?ígthi? - sat together on it (421.3) > from agthi? (sit on something) > ák?ithétte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) > from áthitte (cross), áthitta (across) > ak?ízha?i - lay together (433.1) > from azha? (lie on something) > zhá?kki?á?he - situated lying together (627.3) > from zha??a?he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) > uk?ík?ie - talk together (very frequent word) > from uk?ie (talk with someone) > > I think ank?ík?ibaná? provides evidence that the reciprocal can > actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated > component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only > agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, > because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do > it". > > I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k?i and kki. > > - Bryan James Gordon > > > > From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 19 13:58:14 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:58:14 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Bryan, Thank you for the interesting examples. The strange thing about all of these in Lakota and to a limited extent it seems in Omaha, is that they all look so similar. Lakota has ki- possessive and ki- dative, which I think occur in slightly different positions and have different morphophonemics, then kichi- (final stress) reciprocal, kici- (initial stress) benefactive, then ic'i- reflexive (final stress) and finally ichi- (initial stress) the ditransitive/reciprocal. It looks as though it is deliberately designed to annoy and confuse the foreigner. Bruce Bryan Gordon wrote: Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and kÊ°i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually kÊ°i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than kÊ°i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: Íkkippehíⁿhiⁿxti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from íⁿbehiⁿ (pillow) íkkippaháⁿzhiwáthe - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from íbahaⁿ (know) wándaⁿ íkÊ°ikÊ°aⁿtʰáⁿbi-amá - tied them together with it (150.17) from kÊ°aⁿtÊ°aⁿ (tie) AnkʰíkÊ°ibanáⁿ - we run a race together (165.12) from kÊ°ibanaⁿ (race) ékÊ°ithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ékÊ°igthaⁿbi-amá - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from égthaⁿ (put something on something) KÊ°igthádabi-amá. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) akʰígthiⁿ - sat together on it (421.3) from agthiⁿ (sit on something) ákÊ°ithétte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from áthitte (cross), áthitta (across) akʰízhaⁿi - lay together (433.1) from azhaⁿ (lie on something) zháⁿkkiʔáⁿhe - situated lying together (627.3) from zhaⁿʔaⁿhe (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) ukʰíkÊ°ie - talk together (very frequent word) from ukÊ°ie (talk with someone) I think ankʰíkÊ°ibanáⁿ provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between kÊ°i and kki. - Bryan James Gordon --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 19 14:15:50 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:15:50 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c840f9$e2926b20$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpráva (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Dec 19 14:36:23 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:36:23 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <938462.47069.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 12:48:37 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:48:37 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c8424c$87acdde0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: hmmmmmmm Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpráva (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 12:55:48 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:55:48 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c8424c$87acdde0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpráva (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 20 13:13:28 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:13:28 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <756606.30574.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Paul kichi ichiyamapha. 'Paul and I bumped into each other.' from ichiyapha 'to bump into each other' which is a stative verb Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of shokooh Ingham Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: another Siouan question Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan _____ Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 13:35:21 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:35:21 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: shokooh Ingham wrote:> Interesting, but it isn't quite the same thing, because the verb is as you say a stative verb with 'me' as the patient and not really a reciprocal ie the other participant is introduced by a postposition kichi- ie you don't say ichiunkaphapi in the way that you can say wanunkichiyankapi 'we saw each other'. I'd be interested to know if true reciprocals of that sort can occur with ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:13:28 +0100 From: "Jan Ullrich" To: Subject: RE: another Siouan question Zpráva Paul kichi ichiyamapha. 'Paul and I bumped into each other.' from ichiyapha 'to bump into each other' which is a stative verb Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of shokooh Ingham Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: another Siouan question Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 17:13:59 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:13:59 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <938462.47069.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The animacy issue can be resolved if we assume, as I have suggsted a few messages ago, that kichi- is the "real" reciprocal and ichi- is simply a prefix that indicates, loosely speaking, contact etc. I wasn't even sure that ichi- is a person marker (in the sense that it occupies the slots for person marking in the verb) when I looked at my own data, and now that I've seen Jan's last example, I'm even less sure. kichi-, on the oher hand, is a person marker, and it also inflects for person (yechi- second person, uNkichi- first person). ichi- does not inflect for person, as far as I know. As a genuine reciprocal marker, kichi- can be expected primarily with animates because animates are the entities in the universe that usually 'do' things to each other, while inanimates are normalyy inert. So this might explain strong statistical correlations of animates with kichi- in texts and other corpora. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Dec 22 15:42:06 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:42:06 -0600 Subject: FW: sunflower terms Message-ID: Dear friends, I received this from the archaeologist in Florida who needed terms for sunflower. Let me add my thanks for all the help. Bob ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at fsu.edu] Sent: Fri 12/21/2007 5:04 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hello, Thank you so much for all of the detailed information. I was able to open the document without any problem. These data are useful to us in showing that the terms are dissimilar to what we have in Mesoamerica. I really appreciate your taking the time to assemble the information for us. Best wishes, Mary Pohl -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:rankin at ku.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:45 PM To: Mary Pohl Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 29 19:34:28 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:34:28 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <925340.15754.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Happy Christmas everyone. I have just come back from Norway, which reminds me very much of the Black Hills in places. Yes the ichi- prefix is not really a person prefix. It behaves very much like the other 'contact' prefix akhi- and the khi- one which I suppose are related and seem to often have some meaning to do with meeting in the middle or halving as in akhiyuhapi 'they carry it between themselves', akhiyuzapi 'they hold it from all around' and khiyusleca 'cut in half', akhilecheca 'be like each other' akhilehankheca 'be as long as each other'. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: The animacy issue can be resolved if we assume, as I have suggsted a few messages ago, that kichi- is the "real" reciprocal and ichi- is simply a prefix that indicates, loosely speaking, contact etc. I wasn't even sure that ichi- is a person marker (in the sense that it occupies the slots for person marking in the verb) when I looked at my own data, and now that I've seen Jan's last example, I'm even less sure. kichi-, on the oher hand, is a person marker, and it also inflects for person (yechi- second person, uNkichi- first person). ichi- does not inflect for person, as far as I know. As a genuine reciprocal marker, kichi- can be expected primarily with animates because animates are the entities in the universe that usually 'do' things to each other, while inanimates are normalyy inert. So this might explain strong statistical correlations of animates with kichi- in texts and other corpora. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 18:55:32 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:55:32 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Message-ID: Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Dec 6 19:50:58 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:50:58 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: <475845A4020000A600050586@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Anthony, The Omaha term is kuge wiN, literally "one box" as early treaty payments reportedly came in boxes of 1000 coins, while hiN wiN is 100, and 1,000,000 is given as kuge gtheboN hiN wiN, literally "thousand ten hundred" in the Stabler lexicon. Best, Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Anthony Grant" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 12/06/2007 01:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Dec 6 19:50:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:50:29 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Message-ID: In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 20:04:19 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:04:19 -0800 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 6 20:11:11 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:11:11 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand'Ioway, Otoe-Missouria will coincide here: k?ge [kko' ge] It mean a box. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: David Costa To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:25:23 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:25:23 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave - I'd not known that! Something to add to the paper. >>> David Costa 12/06/07 8:04 pm >>> Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:25:49 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:25:49 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Jimm! >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 12/06/07 8:11 pm >>> Re: Dhegiha 'thousand'Ioway, Otoe-Missouria will coincide here: k?ge [kko' ge] It mean a box. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: David Costa To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:27:59 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:27:59 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob! >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 12/06/07 7:50 pm >>> In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Dec 6 20:27:37 2007 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:27:37 +0000 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WibdhahaN, Mark! >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland 12/06/07 7:50 pm >>> Anthony, The Omaha term is kuge wiN, literally "one box" as early treaty payments reportedly came in boxes of 1000 coins, while hiN wiN is 100, and 1,000,000 is given as kuge gtheboN hiN wiN, literally "thousand ten hundred" in the Stabler lexicon. Best, Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Anthony Grant" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 12/06/2007 01:03 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject Dhegiha 'thousand' Dear all: What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals fan, any others are welcome.) Thanks Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From tmleonard at cox.net Thu Dec 6 21:14:16 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:14:16 -0600 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anthony, PaN'ka i'e gtheboN = 10 gtheboN hiN wiN = 100 (circle of tens) kuge = 1,000 (also means "trunk"; some elders continue to tell the story of 1000 coins being delivered in trunks a long time ago) From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 02:50:42 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:50:42 -0800 Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Osage there is the same usage of 'trunk' for 'thousand', for the same reasons as expressed by others. ???hkoke (variants: ???hkoe, ???hkoa). n box, coffer, trunk; HYPERLINK \l "BM__msocom_1"[KL1] thousand. Or if you can't read this font, here it is in NetSiouan: zh?NaNhkoke (variants: zh?NaNhkoe, zh?NaNhkoa). I will, btw, be happy to provide anyone with the font I'm using, if you'll just let me know. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of David Costa Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:04 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Dhegiha 'thousand' Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand (dollars)". > > In Kaw it is /z^aN:-kkoge/, accent on the 1st syllable. Silver dollars were > transported in crates of 1000 each. OP should be the same except that /o/ > raises to [u]. z^aN: is 'wood', kko'ge is 'box' (something hollow). > > Bob > > ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Anthony Grant >> Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 12:55 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Dhegiha 'thousand' >> >> >> >> Dear all: >> >> What's the correct spelling of the word for 1000 in Dhegiha, specifically OP, >> please? I'm thinking of the one which means 'box'. (Though as I'm a numerals >> fan, any others are welcome.) >> >> Thanks >> >> Anthony >> >> _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__msoanchor_1"[KL1] Is this what you mean (that 'thousand' is another definition)? {{CQ: Yes, another definition.}} No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 02:58:01 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:58:01 -0700 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: <47586628.7020507@cox.net> Message-ID: Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 512 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 05:25:25 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 23:25:25 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 05:51:36 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 22:51:36 -0700 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob, The names were an 1827 German or French effort at their names. I am sure their names are listed in English somewhere, but was wondering how well these spellings worked out. Billy Maxwell From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Dec 7 14:43:51 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:43:51 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like Let?N WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms let?N~let?N for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (? 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^?ce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage w?Nxci to Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^?j^e, than Osage z^?ce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one' or m?Nj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Dec 7 15:04:01 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:04:01 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Wel... I did a search online for Gretomih, and came up with the following from the http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitions/seasonsofparis/osage.html website: THE OSAGES IN PARIS In July 1827, a party of six Osage Indians, four men and two women, arrived in France from Missouri and traveled to Paris, where they created a sensation as representatives of an exotic culture. An article in the Journal des Debats described them as chief, Kihegashugah (or Little Chief), aged 38, his wife Myhangah and cousin Gretomih, both women aged 18, as second chief Washingsaba (Black Spirit), aged 32, and his two followers Marcharthitatoongah (Big Warrior) aged 45 and Minkchatahooh (Little Warrior) aged 22. They were accompanied by a half-Indian, half-French man who served as interpreter. So, just forget all that stuff I was saying about Kaw names! It looks like we've found them: Gretomih = (same) 'Hawk Woman' Let?N WiN Kishagashugah = Kihegashugah 'Little Chief' Kah?ke Z^?Nka Minckchatahooh = Minkchatahooh 'Little Warrior' ????? I just have no idea how the 'Little Warrior' name actually breaks down. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin McBride" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like Let?N WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms let?N~let?N for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (? 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^?ce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage w?Nxci to Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^?j^e, than Osage z^?ce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one' or m?Nj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 15:07:10 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 07:07:10 -0800 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gr?tomih: A recent version of this name (Gretomih) is let?NwiN 'hawk woman' which was the name of Mrs. Holding who was one of the major sources for the Osage dictionary information. Not sure about the other ones, perhaps in the tribal museum there is a collection of names and one could find alternative spellings that could shed some light on this, by providing a clue as to what sounds are meant by this spelling. If the inquirer (Billy or Killian) wants to contact me off-list I can speculate (make some wild guesses) on the other two names. HYPERLINK "mailto:cquintero at interlinguainc.com"cquintero at interlinguainc.com Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:25 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: 12/6/2007 10:11 AM From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 15:07:36 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:07:36 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: > The names were an 1827 German or French effort at their names. That's useful information since it strongly suggests that the letter "I" was indeed pronounced "ee". So the first name was probably 'Hawk Woman'. The spelling info should help people who know much more than I about Osage to I.D. the other two. Leave it to me to undertake the easiest of three jobs! :-) Bob From tmleonard at cox.net Fri Dec 7 15:20:01 2007 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:20:01 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names In-Reply-To: <001d01c838df$97356320$1f21a8c0@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Billy, Justin is correct in his observation of notoriously awful translations. You have to take some wild guesses as to how a European would have spelled Osage sounds from that period. My best S.W.A.G.: Gr?tomih - gthe'daN mi - Hawk Moon, or, gthe'daN wi - Hawk Woman Kishagashugah - [gi] sha'ge shu'gah - Thick Nail Minckchatahooh - mi'xa saN ta hu (Duck Call).......perhaps "mi'xa pa taN ho" - mallard (Ithink this is in LaFlesche's dictionary) > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 7 15:26:15 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:26:15 -0600 Subject: 3 Osage Names Message-ID: Hey, great work! And the 2nd chief Washingsaba should be 'Black Bird" (as opposed to blackbird) rather than the more-romantic-sounding "Black Spirit", I suppose. "Big Warrior" looks like an attempt, filtered thru English, to reproduce something like Mashatita tonga. I don't recognize that right off, except for the tonga part. Could have a ch rather than the Fr. pronunciation of sh too. In another hour or so Carolyn will be struggling out of bed out there in Long Beach and we'll all learn the truth. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Fri 12/7/2007 9:04 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names Wel... I did a search online for Gretomih, and came up with the following from the http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitions/seasonsofparis/osage.html website: THE OSAGES IN PARIS In July 1827, a party of six Osage Indians, four men and two women, arrived in France from Missouri and traveled to Paris, where they created a sensation as representatives of an exotic culture. An article in the Journal des Debats described them as chief, Kihegashugah (or Little Chief), aged 38, his wife Myhangah and cousin Gretomih, both women aged 18, as second chief Washingsaba (Black Spirit), aged 32, and his two followers Marcharthitatoongah (Big Warrior) aged 45 and Minkchatahooh (Little Warrior) aged 22. They were accompanied by a half-Indian, half-French man who served as interpreter. So, just forget all that stuff I was saying about Kaw names! It looks like we've found them: Gretomih = (same) 'Hawk Woman' Let?N WiN Kishagashugah = Kihegashugah 'Little Chief' Kah?ke Z^?Nka Minckchatahooh = Minkchatahooh 'Little Warrior' ????? I just have no idea how the 'Little Warrior' name actually breaks down. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin McBride" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih. It looks like Let?N WiN, 'hawk woman,' where there are variant forms let?N~let?N for 'hawk,' and (I think) wiN~miN~mi for the female ending. I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands and Clans" (? 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing. But these sorts of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they would resemble something. For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of Kishagashugah being z^?ce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like sounds. This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended his work for a French audience. I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names. For instance, the possible use of miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage w?Nxci to Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one'). Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part Kishagashugah as Kaw z^?j^e, than Osage z^?ce, 'red.' Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a whole lot like Kaw m?Nxc^i 'one' or m?Nj^e 'bow.' I can even imagine a situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.' By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these names? Good luck, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'. Mih would be 'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep. Otherwise it's a mystery to me. This is interesting because the sequence gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago. bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: 3 Osage Names Tom or anyone, Just wondering if these names were translatable? Billy Dear Billy, I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh. Greetings Kilian from old Germany From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Dec 7 15:55:45 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:55:45 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Osages in Paris Message-ID: http://libweb2.princeton.edu/rbsc2/portfolio/wa/fi/00000004.htm If you care to place faces with the names, here is the link. Thank you three Osages full, or make that six. Billy Begin forwarded message: > From: "Robert Brewer" > Date: December 6, 2007 10:39:38 AM MST > To: > Subject: Re: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Re: Nice 1827 sketch of Osages > in Paris > Reply-To: PlainsIndianSeminartwo at yahoogroups.com > > Dave and all- > Kilian uploaded his pictures to the "DECEMBER 05-2007" folder of the > PIS2 Photos section. > ? > http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/photos/ > browse/4bd5 > ? > His description for both reads "A colored lithographs of Osage Indians > by Louis-L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 ." I've attached his > pictures to this message. > ? > For those waiting to see Yesterday's pictures on the web site, these > are now uploaded. I was gone much of yesterday and when I returned > none of my email was coming in. My server must have been down. Finally > worked this morning and have spent the last?couple of?hours reading > the messages, saving these and the attachments and uploading to the > various web sites.? Most done now except I still need to upload Mike's > 99 moccasin photos to PIS Images 27. > ? > -Bob >>> Dear Billy, >>> I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis- >>> L?opold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time >>> this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate >>> the >>> photos . I know three names of these Indians Gr?tomih, Kishagashugah >>> and Minckchatahooh. >>> >>> Greetings >>> Kilian from old Germany -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3599 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Osage 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 61124 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Osage 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 59573 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- > Billy Maxwell 187 Woodland Estates Road Great Falls, MT 59404 406.727.5229 bmaxwell at mt.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 215 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Dec 7 18:03:25 2007 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:03:25 -0800 Subject: Words for 'thousand' In-Reply-To: <47585AB3020000A6000505A6@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: This was very widespread. Seneca, for example, is sga?sh?:d, quite literally "one box". Wally --On Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:25 PM +0000 Anthony Grant wrote: > Thanks, Dave - I'd not known that! Something to add to the paper. > >>>> David Costa 12/06/07 8:04 pm >>> > Miami does this too: note mihtekolaakani "wooden box, trunk, thousand > (dollars)". From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 04:16:37 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:16:37 +1100 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] Message-ID: Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanOnomatopes1892[1-4].pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 878433 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- [Part 2 to follow] But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like to share it. Best wishes, Clive Bloomfield. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 04:19:45 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:19:45 +1100 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] Message-ID: Here's pages 5 to 8 : -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanOnomatopes1892[5-8].pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 876900 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boris at terracom.net Sat Dec 8 05:01:13 2007 From: boris at terracom.net (Alan Knutson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:01:13 -0600 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] In-Reply-To: <6DA42270-16E5-4A86-A10C-1F2DCC826AA7@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Clive: Onomatopes seems to be an interesting Anglicization of the Greek form "onomatopeia." Alan K No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: 12/7/2007 1:11 PM From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 07:53:45 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:53:45 +1100 Subject: J.O. Dorsey on Siouan "Onomatopes"(1892)-[Pt.2] In-Reply-To: <013a01c83957$6127dec0$df6e0fcc@alscom> Message-ID: Hello Alan, A fellow Classicist-Lakotanist? Yes indeed, I thought it was rather singular, although one sees clearly what is meant. I suspect J.O.D. may have coined a neologism there - haven't checked Webster or the OED yet, for the term's first appearance in English. "pharmacopeia'--->"pharmacope"(??); "mythopoiea"-->"mythope"(??); "epopoieia"-->"epope"(??) Hmm - maybe not, eh? Oh well, "se non ? vero, ? ben trovato", no? regards, Clive B. On 08/12/2007, at 4:01 PM, Alan Knutson wrote: > > Hi Clive: > > Onomatopes seems to be an interesting Anglicization of the Greek form > "onomatopeia." > > Alan K > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: > 12/7/2007 1:11 PM > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 8 10:40:35 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:40:35 +1100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: <682852.11933.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Bruce & other Lakotanists, Physical & emotional (metaphysical?) feelings probably require someone with more extensive philosophical training than mine to distinguish between! Regarding physical feelings, I have found the following two sentences in Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's 1944 Lakota version of Ann Nolan Clark's "Brave Against the Enemy", where (imho) the relevant verbs might well be rendered in English as "he did not feel it". (One realizes that other translations may be possible.) Both on Page 168 of BAE : 1) "Chuwita sece, eyas^ kiksuye s^ni." [=he may have been cold, but he didn't feel it] I suppose more literally, that might be : "he wasn't mindful/ conscious/aware of it." 2) "Hustaka aye sece, eyas^ slolkiye s^ni." [=Perhaps he'd become tired, yet he didn't feel (his own exhaustion)/He wasn't aware of his own probable growing fatigue] Nolan Clark's original has : "If he grew tired, he did not know it." Regarding more abstract emotions, I find this interesting metaphorical description of a state of emotion in the same Lakota translator's version of Nolan Clark's "Bringer of The Mystery Dog" (1941) I realize that the original bold metaphor is in the English there, but perhaps such an experienced translator as E.A-O-H might well have transformed & "lakota-fied" it, if the thought-pattern had been too alien to a Lakota-speaker's psychology?? : (To set the scene : S^uNka Cik'ala, Little Dog, has just witnessed an exciting buffalo-hunt, but is browned-off, because he longs to become a man by accomplishing a deed of derring-do) I will need to quote a little more extensively! On Pages 37 & 38 : "Wanasapi hehaN lila ohitika oh^'aN s^ni k'uN he e cha el hi. YuNkhaN he woawachiN kin thaz^us^ka wichayah^takapi kin he iyecheca. Takuni echuN s^ni." ........................."Thaz^us^ka woawachiN ciscila kiN he akhe hi na akhe yah^take nag^iyeyiN kta el hi. Tokhel iyokiphipi thaN'iNs^ni waN anpetu ota nag^iyeye na haNhepi ota oihaNkes^ni kakis^ye." [=At the time of the hunt, he had performed no deed of bravery, that was the sort of (feeling/realization) which came to him. And now that feeling/awareness was like an ant which stung people. He'd done sweet Fanny Adams!...................That little ant feeling came again & again, to sting & annoy him. A feeling of general dissatisfaction aggravated him for many days, and tormented him through endless nights.] On Page 62 (ibid.) : "(S^uNka Cik'ala lila waNkayeic'iye.) Ithokap taku ok'oka woawachiN ichaNteiyapha k'uN he woawachiN lechala kin ahi ichiyutakuni s^ni na lila sutaya yuze." [=Little Dog jumped high into the air. His present emotions, when juxtaposed (lit. : ' brought to) with those feelings of excitement which had struck his heart previously, diminished (them) by comparison (ichi- 'together") to nothing, and held him firmly in their grip.] (Perhaps that translation is a little 'free'!) Lastly, there is this intriguing passage depicting feelings of emotional preference : On Page 46 (ibid.) : Grandmother (UNci) and Young Girl (WichiNcala Theca) and Singing Woman (LowaN s'a) are quite happy to be confined in their tipi during the onset of the winter blizzards, in preference to less desirable alternatives) Again, to give some context, it seems necessary to extend the quotation. "Thima aonathak yaNkapi chaNkhe iyokiphipi. Wichasha kin iyuha thiokshaNla unpi chaNkhe he uN oonakiphe na okhophewanilya iyokphiya uNpi kiN he uN hecheca. [=They were pleased to be shut up indoors. Their menfolk weren't far away from home, and so they felt happy living in safety (in a safe location) & in the absence of anxiety.] "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was their situation'.] (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - that's the way it was). "Na tokeh^ci osni k'eyas^ chuwitapi kiN he akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na nawichakiciz^iNpi chola okhopheya yaNkapi kte kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." [= And no matter how cold the weather became, they preferred to face feeling fozen, to a life of fear, bereft of men to defend them - such was their predicament.] Incidentally, I find the syntax of the last two sentences fascinating! That use of the locative-prefix "a-" [="on; added; more"] to express comparison is most interesting.(IF that surmise IS correct - See B&D pp. 39-40 : although the remarks there do seem to specify " with adverbs". But I also had in mind the sense of "awas^te" meaning : "be better than") Regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 30/11/2007, at 9:22 PM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > True abstract notions are difficult to sort out. In Lakota I note > that I have a word woableze 'perception' and would think that > ableza 'to perceive, understand' could stand for 'feel' as well'. > The word slolya 'know, experience' also comes near to it as in > teh^i slolya 'experience difficulties, have a hard time'. Often as > you note there is a specific word for things like 'feel sad', feel > happy' sometimes involving chante 'heart' obviously in Lakota the > seat of emotions. So one finds chante s^ica 'feel sad', chante > was^te 'feel happy'. The word thawacin is also often translated > 'feelings, emotions' though I can't think how it could be used in a > sentence. I would love to know what other Lakotanists think might > stand for 'feel, feelings'. > Bruce > > > > Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and > top money wasters of 2007. > > > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! > for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Dec 8 19:44:03 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 20:44:03 +0100 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] In-Reply-To: <67186A97-0DB0-4F2A-94B1-5FC41F2DC06A@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, up to now, I never heard the word "onomatope" (was it an early coining of J.O. Dorsey's time??). It is usually given as "onomatopoeia" (onomatopoeic) in English (hangut?nz?s, hangut?nz? in Hungarian and Lautmalerei, lautmalerisch in German). With reference to Siouan tongues, I've encountered the expression "sound symbolism" or such, which might be different (Kostya?). Alfred P.S. You maybe still remember our topic: Hungarian "szundik?l" (to slumber) and Romani "sune dikel/suno dikhel" (to dream)... Am 08.12.2007 um 05:16 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on > "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which > may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : > > > > [Part 2 to follow] > > But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like > to share it. > > Best wishes, > > Clive Bloomfield. From willemdereuse at unt.edu Sat Dec 8 20:20:42 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:20:42 -0600 Subject: JODorsey On Siouan "Onomatopes"[Jan1892] In-Reply-To: <51DBC3F0-51AE-4AAB-AEAC-11B4E17C7DDE@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Thank you Clive. I am quite impressed by the breadth of knowledge of good ole J.O.D. He is right about correlative pronouns in Siouan (p.1 ). I am not quite sure what he means about correlative pronouns in Athabascan, though... Willem > Am 08.12.2007 um 05:16 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > >> Greetings folks, Here is part 1 of a fascinating journal paper on >> "onomatopes" (I've learnt a new word!), written by J.O.Dorsey, which >> may be of interest to Siouanist scholars here : >> >> >> >> [Part 2 to follow] >> >> But you have probably been long conversant with it! If not, I'd like >> to share it. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Clive Bloomfield. > > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Dec 9 19:10:14 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:10:14 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo?inpi kin he iye? a?ip'a pi kta ?awat'elya pi na iyoki?ica un pi kin he e a?awat'elya pi ?ni kin h??a.) Very good examples! Yet, I wouldn't use the English word "felt" in the (more) literal translation because thus diluting your very point: As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _sl?lkiyA_ - "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) are used. BTW, I like your reading of a-?awat'elyA <- a-wa?te (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 9 20:28:05 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:28:05 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <388F019E-C426-4FA1-95A8-421AD7859475@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na iyoki???ica un pi kin he e a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) Very good examples! Yet, I wouldn't use the English word "felt" in the (more) literal translation because thus diluting your very point: As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _sl??lkiyA_ - "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) are used. BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Dec 10 11:51:05 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:51:05 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -n?l/-n?l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn?l jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo?inpi kin he iye? a?ip'a pi kta ?awat'elya pi na iyoki?ica un pi kin he e a?awat'elya pi ?ni kin h??a.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-?awat'elyA <- a-wa?te (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 10 12:47:26 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:47:26 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <547B68D9-E3C9-40AB-A442-3FF45D928A9E@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn??l jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote:> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na iyoki???ica un pi kin he e a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Dec 10 13:39:22 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:39:22 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <401231.5778.qm@web27014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo? From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Mon Dec 10 14:39:57 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:39:57 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: <401231.5778.qm@web27014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Bruce, only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten in the ground"). Alfred P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue (mila??) Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a > snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe > 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/ > mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, > whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more > than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally > productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I > have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think > on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this > impression? > Bruce < > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe > comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") > e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of > other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general > idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian > adessive -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn??l > jobb - better than this). > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na > iyoki???ica un pi kin he e > a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) > > (...) > > BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better > than), it's very > convincing. > > Alfred > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 10 18:30:59 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:30:59 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random order: ki-ska 'to turn white' ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' ki-suta 'to get hard' ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' ki-haNska 'to get tall' ki-ksapa 'he got smart' ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' ki-bleza 'to become conscious' ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' ki-ni 'to come back to life' ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a historical connection. ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old word" by informant) ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: *ki-khate 'to get hot' *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen with too many of my grammar files! As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. Regina ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: Thanks a lot, Bruce, only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten in the ground"). Alfred P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue (mila??) Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn??l jobb - better than this). Alfred ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na iyoki???ica un pi kin he e a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) (...) BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), it's very convincing. Alfred --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Dec 10 20:33:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:33:49 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo? - a smarter inbox. From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 10 21:32:58 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:32:58 +0000 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina's mention of kini as in the radio station reminded me of kili, the other radio station, which is translated often as "awesome", if that is how it is spelt. I have often wondered what the origin of this word is. It doesn't seem to have a recognizable root or any cognates. It seems an odd word for such a necessary concept. Any clues? Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random order: ki-ni 'to come back to life' --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Dec 10 21:13:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:13:29 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Message-ID: I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: shokooh Ingham To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. Bruce ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? Bruce < It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? Alfred ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, to living in > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > their situation'.] > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > that's the way it was). (Lo? - a smarter inbox. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 01:09:05 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:09:05 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki- ska, in addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') " ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. There are also : ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wak?chepa wi' June, moon of things getting fat again) ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn whitish FOR one' (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. p.88 : "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person waki-." Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became men too quickly." Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before their time." (p.37) In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get big'). R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no control." Good wishes, Clive. P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case- ending called the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp. 129-130; "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm still thinking them over! :) On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, > in random order: > > ki-ska 'to turn white' > ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' > ki-suta 'to get hard' > ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' > ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' > ki-ni 'to come back to life' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' > thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' > wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' > > There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, > which, however, is rendered by the slightly different translation > 'to become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" > ki-? I'd say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- > to postulate a historical connection. > > ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an > "old word" by informant) > ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' > ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' > > The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives > are most easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them > are. For instance, the following combinations are ungrammatical, > among many others: > *ki-khate 'to get hot' > *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' > > It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have > become by itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently > kicked this file out of the "active" materials that needed double- > checking with native speakers years ago, I couldn't pursue this > issue further. I hope that didn't happen with too many of my > grammar files! > As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental > prefix, that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this > element. At least, this type of ki- seems to go nicely with > semantically similar prefixes such as na- 'to become by itself' and > ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there IS an intransitive ka-). > Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect marker. I've also > considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, but that > didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. > > Regina > > > ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > Thanks a lot, Bruce, > only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. > Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as > anything rotten in the ground"). > > Alfred > > P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this > issue (mila??) > > > Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > >> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a >> snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe >> 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use >> ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more >> conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. >> Bruce >> >> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: >> > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more >> than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally >> productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I >> have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't >> think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have >> this impression? >> Bruce < >> >> >> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") >> e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of >> other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >> >> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a >> "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g. think of >> Hungarian adessive -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative >> (e.g. enn??l jobb - better than this). >> >> Alfred >> >> >> ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: >> > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica >> uNpi >> > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >> >> > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >> to living in >> > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >> > their situation'.] >> > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >> > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >> > that's the way it was). >> >> >> (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na >> iyoki???ica un pi kin he e >> a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) >> >> (...) >> >> BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better >> than), it's very >> convincing. >> >> Alfred >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 02:12:06 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:12:06 +1100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Alfred, Can't say much about the 'etyma' of "kimimila", but there is (B-Md., s.v.) "kiwiwila" : 'to turn into a spring', (apparently used in B.H. 181.21). At least it rhymes, eh? I would love to know the etymology of "kimimila' though! BTW, frustratingly, B-Md.'s citations from the famous 1924 'Bible History' do not appear to correspond at all with my copy of the Benziger Bros. edition of that year. (E.g. page 181 has only 19 lines of text : 'kiwiwila' does not appear there.) I've also stumbled across : kithaN'iN : glossed by B-Md. as "to appear; be visible FOR". (given that translation, clearly 1st Dative, no?) Since, as we know, thaN'iN means : "(be) visible/apparent/manifest", might that verbal derivative be another lead towards possible first dative origins of that 'ki-' prefix? : kithaN'iN : (perhaps) 'to become visible/apparent, etc.' -->'to show up suddenly/to suddenly become manifest'(??). Just speculations. Also, as Regina observes, there may well be an Aspectual component of some kind (at least with some of these ki- items) Sudden change or entrance into a state? Ingressive? Inchoative?. But I am also attracted to that suggested semantic similarity with the instrumental prefixes 'na-' ['by inner force' (B&D, p.46)] & 'ka-' [with/by 'indeterminate outer force'(B&D p.47, #46.2)] Was meinst du dazu, meiner Freund? Alles Gute! Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 1:39 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > Thanks a lot, Bruce, > only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. > Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as > anything rotten in the ground"). > > Alfred > > P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this > issue (mila??) > > >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 02:39:44 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:39:44 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <949046D0-79C4-4BF4-B665-FCEE082AC8E8@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/12/2007, at 12:09 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in > his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan > Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp. > 35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na > echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they went off to do a man's > job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: silently). > They became men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were > sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They > became men before their time." (p.37) > A minor quibble : I've double-checked Starr's text there, and he does actually have 'inila iyapi' there. I'm uneasy with that ; wouldn't 'inila' alone suffice to express the idea : 'without backchat/complaint'? I wonder if, given his English translation, that could be a defective transcription of an originally spoken : 'iyayapi' (=they set off/went away), or even, possibly 'iyayeyapi' (interpreted 'passively'=they were sent away?). But I guess one might have expected : 'iyayewichayapi' [=they sent them away] for that second meaning. Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Dec 11 05:54:13 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:54:13 -0700 Subject: ki 'by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, until I got Regina's message. I am firmly convinced that this Lak. "ki" is "instrumental" in the sense that it fits the same kind of slots as na, wo, ka, etc. etc. And it is unaspirated "ki". There is another morpheme with similar behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide what category to put that into. Two examples that Regina didn't mention (sorry if someone else already brought them up): ki-washicu 'to take on White man's ways' ki-Lakhota 'to behave like an Indian' (this is always pejorative in my experience, means something like 'making an idiot of himself by pretending to be Indian'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. > > I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? > > I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shokooh Ingham > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? > Bruce < > > > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > > > (Lo? iyoki???ica un pi kin he e > a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h??? > > (...) > > > BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), it's very > convincing. > > > Alfred > > > > ________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Dec 11 06:03:01 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:03:01 -0700 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <949046D0-79C4-4BF4-B665-FCEE082AC8E8@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki-skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how this might work? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! > > Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki-ska, in > addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn > white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful > metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) > also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') > " > ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' > (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification > of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear > again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. > There are also : > > ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wak?chepa wi' June, moon of > things getting fat again) > ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] > ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] > ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn > whitish FOR one' > (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort > of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) > ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the > ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. > > > Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. > p.88 : > > "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" > > "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A > number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are > expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person > waki-." > > Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", > 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The > Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with > affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. > Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and > they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became > men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to > do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before > their time." (p.37) > > In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men > AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more > diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the > pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? > > > > Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of > this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : > > ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' > ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get > big'). > > R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into > the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no > control." > > Good wishes, > Clive. > > P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar > idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case-ending called > the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or > attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another > noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., > christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! > ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp.129-130; > "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] > > P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm > still thinking them over! :) > > On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > >> Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random >> order: >> >> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' >> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' >> ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' >> ki-ni 'to come back to life' >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' >> thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' >> wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' >> >> There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, >> however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to >> become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd >> say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a >> historical connection. >> >> ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old >> word" by informant) >> ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' >> ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' >> >> The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most >> easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, >> the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: >> *ki-khate 'to get hot' >> *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' >> >> It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by >> itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out >> of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers >> years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen >> with too many of my grammar files! >> As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, >> that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, >> this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such >> as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there >> IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect >> marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, >> but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. >> >> Regina >> >> >> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: >> Thanks a lot, Bruce, >> only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I >> found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten >> in the ground"). >> >> Alfred >> >> P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue >> (mila??) >> >> >> Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: >> >>> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', >>> kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; >>> a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself >>> into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is >>> non-intentional perhaps. >>> Bruce >>> >>> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: >>>> Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an >>>> interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is >>>> a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it >>>> is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this >>>> feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? >>> Bruce < >>> >>> >>> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >>> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. >>> kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other >>> renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >>> >>> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" >>> found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive >>> -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn??l jobb - better than >>> this). >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: >>>> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi >>>> kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >>> >>>> [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >>> to living in >>>> sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >>>> their situation'.] >>>> (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >>>> did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >>>> that's the way it was). >>> >>> >>> (Lo??inpi kin he iye??? a???ip'a pi kta ???awat'elya pi na >>> iyoki???ica un pi kin he e >>> a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h????a.) >>> >>> (...) >>> >>> BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), >>> it's very >>> convincing. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. >> >> >> >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 08:20:32 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:20:32 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <476225.25073.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: . oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 08:39:02 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:39:02 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <742747.32189.qm@web27015.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Regina's mention of kini as in the radio station reminded me of kili, the other radio station, which is translated often as "awesome", > if that is how it is spelt. I have often wondered what the origin of this word is. It doesn't seem to have a recognizable root or any cognates. > It seems an odd word for such a necessary concept. Any clues? It is a common colloquialism and pronounced with aspirated kh: khili'. It is most likely related to okhilita 'it is exciting, thrilling, intense, dramatic, a to-do, crowds, there is much action'. The -lita part might be related to archaic words walitakA 'to be courageous and full of valor, industrious and active' and to litas^kaN 'to be very busy'. I am uncertain as to the origin of khi, but I don't think it is impossible that it originates in the stem khi- 'in contact' Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Dec 11 09:49:18 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:49:18 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <23E13574-EC51-49D0-964A-6C5ACE5696E7@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Hallo Clive, mein Freund! reading your quote (?iyapi) and translation, my thought has been also that the transcription might (must?) be erroneous. My careful guess: the transcriber didn't consider the spoken word's slurred form in common speech (iyaya pi = [iyaapi] -> *iyapi), what do you think? Alfred P.S. I also remembered Starr's "lila oh'ankoya kiwicasapi" [ki- wi'chas^a-pi], thanks for quoting. Am 11.12.2007 um 03:39 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > > On 11/12/2007, at 12:09 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", 1996), in >> his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota >> Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan >> Inyanke" [=The Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp. >> 35-37), writes, with affecting pathos : >> >> "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na >> echuNpi. Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." >> >> "Even though they were still just boys, they went off to do a man's >> job, and they did just that, without complaint (lit.: silently). >> They became men too quickly." >> >> Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were >> sent to do a man's job which they did without complaining. They >> became men before their time." (p.37) >> > > > A minor quibble : > > I've double-checked Starr's text there, and he does actually have > 'inila iyapi' there. I'm uneasy with that ; wouldn't 'inila' alone > suffice to express the idea : 'without backchat/complaint'? > I wonder if, given his English translation, that could be a > defective transcription of an originally spoken : 'iyayapi' (=they > set off/went away), > or even, possibly 'iyayeyapi' (interpreted 'passively'=they were > sent away?). But I guess one might have expected : > 'iyayewichayapi' [=they sent them away] for that second meaning. > > Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 10:45:51 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:45:51 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings David, You are most welcome! Might that be due to the semantic-field of 'skuya' perhaps covering 'salt(y)/sour', in addition to 'sweet' , as shown in such apparent derivatives of the root as : 'skumna'/'oskumna' ='sour-smelling; sourish'; 'oskuya' ='sour (e.g., as milk)'; 'wiskuye' ='something which sours (OR sweetens) food '[Buech.-Md.]--- >i.e. 'spice/condiment'? Regards, Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 5:03 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki- > skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional > meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal > semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the > sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how > this might work? > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Dec 11 11:01:29 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:01:29 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: This is very interesting and convincing, indeed, thanks. As an old- fashioned linguistic purist myself, I'm afraid to state that this appears to be the way languages generally develop through (modern) use. May I grasp the opportunity here, Jan, asking your authentic view on the use of "ki-is^tamnihaNpi (hiNgle)" in your fine translation of Emma LaRocque's poem "Where did she go?"? "(...) Ite na ho kin hena / tokahe anpao kinhan / wakalyapi mitawa kin / ki-istamnihanpi hingle (...)" "(...) Her voices, her faces / that turn my coffee / into a cup of tears / with the first wisp of day? (...)" Ite na ho kin hena ?okahe ?npa? kinhan wa?alyapi mi?awa kin ki-i?tamnihanpi hingle. I'm already pondering over this special use of ki- since quite some time, you know: it caught my eye that, as it seems to me, you thought it to be necessary(?)/advisible(?) to use a hyphen and (even) the auxiliary verb hinglA together with the main verb. I'd be most grateful for any feedback. Best regards Alfred Am 11.12.2007 um 09:20 schrieb Jan Ullrich: > I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- > is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice > kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is > used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words > with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation > of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye ? 'to turn into a > cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by > contemporary speakers. > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning > 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for > instance in kiwichas^a ? 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her > grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human > who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to > become a (respectable) woman again' > In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. > So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If > the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment > caution and cross checking. > > > ki-ska 'to turn white' > > Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to > return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: > ? oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a ? 'when > they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > > > ki-suta 'to get hard' > > 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets > he melted became hard again' > > > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > > 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', > this is often used for 'to sober up' > > > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > > This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > > > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > These are all somewhat surprising to me. > > Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an > active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated > as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some > of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni ? 'to > recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be > pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). > Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? > > Jan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 11 11:05:36 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:05:36 +1100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, Of course, one willingly defers to your deeper knowledge : you are the man on the spot, in direct daily contact with speakers, after all. But the thought occurs to me that if Ivan Starr is a 'Nam vet, (as I understand he is), he must be at least 55+ years of age, and more probably in his 60's. Sure, that seems youngish to me too, these days, but lets face it, it ain't exactly the first heady flush of youth, either! But then again, amongst the fluent-speaker demographic, 60-something probably IS somewhat "spring-chickenish", eh? Cheers, Clive. On 11/12/2007, at 7:20 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the > meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs > for instance in kiwichas^a ? 'to become a man'. > Jan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 15:32:47 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:32:47 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <001e01c83bce$b2af16e0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (quoting JAN) >I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to >return to the original state". I was aware of this meaning which is listed in Boas/Deloria when I started working on ki-, but for some funny reason, my speakers didn't provide any data to support the hypothesis that 'to become again' is the sole meaning of ki- (which wouldn't work to well with stuff like David's ki-was>icu etc.). It might be an additional reading of the basic meaning 'to become'. >In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. This coincides with my findings. >So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. ki- might be productive enough to have produced words you haven't encountered. As for my own list, I would never claim that it is anywhere near complete. >ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." It's impossible to tell whether a certain ki- is a dative or a 'become'-ki- just from looking at the verb form. The translation might not always be helpful in resloving such conflicts. At least, in my translation, a secondary argument that represents a recipient or experiencer is not indicated. And I really trust my speakers. >Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Unfortunately, nothing. That's the weak spot in my data. As I said, I didn't do much work on ki- because I accidentally removed the file from the active field materials that needed double-checking years ago, as I found out yesterday. But having data on inflection might help answer the quesion of what particular type of ki- we're looking at in individual cases. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye ? 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a ? 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a ? 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni ? 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 15:39:14 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:39:14 -0800 Subject: ki 'by itself' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (quoting David) >There is another morpheme with similar >behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide >what category to put that into. I'm happy to report that I have a pretty complex khi-file in my data that hasn't been prematurely removed from the files that needed further work, like the ki-file. khi- is certainly less productive than ki- and has a meaning that is extremely hard to pin down. In some cases, a concept such as separative would fit, and it also has meanings implying a divisioninto two components. khi- is semantically sufficiently distinct from ki- to neglect it in our discussion of ki-. Regina ROOD DAVID S wrote: Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, until I got Regina's message. I am firmly convinced that this Lak. "ki" is "instrumental" in the sense that it fits the same kind of slots as na, wo, ka, etc. etc. And it is unaspirated "ki". There is another morpheme with similar behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide what category to put that into. Two examples that Regina didn't mention (sorry if someone else already brought them up): ki-washicu 'to take on White man's ways' ki-Lakhota 'to behave like an Indian' (this is always pejorative in my experience, means something like 'making an idiot of himself by pretending to be Indian'.) David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-. > > I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-? > > I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks > Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > > Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument. > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shokooh Ingham > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM > Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) > > I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps. > Bruce > > ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: > > > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? > Bruce < > > > > > It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? > > > Alfred > > > ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: > > > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi > > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha." > > > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, > to living in > > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was > > their situation'.] > > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they > > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - > > that's the way it was). > > > > > (Lo?> iyoki???ica un pi kin he e > a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h???> > > (...) > > > BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), it's very > convincing. > > > Alfred > > > > ________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 11 17:52:26 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:52:26 -0600 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' Message-ID: Throughout much of Mississippi Valley Siouan and all of the Dhegiha *ni-skudhe (water+sweet) is 'salt', and in Ohio Valley Siouan it is often from *ma-skure (earth+sweet). So we have 'sweet', 'salty' and 'sour' all using the same root. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 12:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' Clive, thanks for this interesting list. I had forgotten about "ki-skuya 'become sweet'", but I'm reminded of a very odd additional meaning for that word: 'to become sour, of milk'. My personal semantic space does not equate the taste of sour milk with the sensation I would identify as "sweet". Does anyone understand how this might work? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the enchanting discussion, folks! > > Regarding Regina's first category, one notes with fascination that ki-ska, in > addition to that literal sense, (mentioned by Regina below), of 'turn > white/bleach(intr.)' may also (accdg. to Buech.-Md. 2002) have the useful > metaphorical meaning of : 'to recover common sense'! B&D (p. 88; Sect.101) > also record meaning of : " 'to fade'('to return to an original white colour') > " > ki-bleza, as well as meaning 'become conscious'-->'regain consciousness' > (?)/'come to' (?), may (B-Md.s.v.) have the obviously kindred signification > of : 'to sober up'/to recover from drunkenness' ['to become mentally clear > again'/'to regain mental clarity')]. > There are also : > > ki-chepa : 'to become fat again' ('wak?chepa wi' June, moon of > things getting fat again) > ki-gnas^kiNyaN : 'to turn crazy'; [Buech. BH] > ki-sagye : 'to turn into a cane/rod' [Buech. BH] > ki-saN : Interestingly, glossed in Buech.-Md. as : 'to turn > whitish FOR one' > (Might this be a clue to origins as some sort > of variant of B&D's "first" Dative, I wonder?) > ki-sapA : 'to become black (or 'bare') again' "as does the > ground by the disappearance of snow" [Buech.-Md]. > > > Boas & Deloria's 1941 "Dakota Grammar", has the following, at Section 101. > p.88 : > > "The Use of 'ki-' for Back Again" > > "A peculiar use of ki- is probably reducible to the dative ki- "........."A > number of other forms which render the idea of return to a previous state are > expressed by forms corresponding to the first dative ki-m with first person > waki-." > > Pace B&D, but I note that native-speaker Ivan STARR, ("Lakota Eyapaha", > 1996), in his humane essay about ongoing traumatization of returning Lakota > Vietnam vets "Vietnam Okicize Kin : Nahanhci Wokakije Wan Inyanke" [=The > Vietnam Conflict : the Ordeal Continues Still] (pp.35-37), writes, with > affecting pathos : > > "NahahNci hoks^ilapi eyas^ wicas^a thawichoh^'aN waN inila iyapi na echuNpi. > Lila oh^'ankhoya kiwichas^api." > > "Even though they were still just boys, they were sent to do a man's job, and > they did just that, without complaint (lit.: speaking silently). They became > men too quickly." > > Starr's English version : "They were still young boys yet they were sent to > do a man's job which they did without complaining. They became men before > their time." (p.37) > > In that context, imho, the verb there could scarcely mean : "they became men > AGAIN." Perhaps, in the half-century or so, the verb had acquired a more > diffuse, or generalized sense, in addition to the meaning of returning to the > pre-existing state? Any thoughts, friends? > > > > Rood & Taylor's Sketch supplies, (in their regrettably brief discussion of > this suffix at Section 9.2.2.2.) : > > ki-skuyA : 'to become sweet' > ki-thaNka : 'to grow old', (as opposed to : 'thaNka ayA' : 'to get > big'). > > R&T comment : "In most cases, ki- imparts a meaning of inevitable change into > the state mentioned by the verb, change over which the referent has no > control." > > Good wishes, > Clive. > > P.S. : As a matter of general interest, Finnish seems to convey a similar > idea nominally, being endowed with a nominal/adjectival case-ending called > the Translative, one of whose functions is to denote entrance into, or > attaining the end-point of changes of state. There is yet another > noun-inflection to convey the state or temporary character of sthng/s.o., > christened, appropriately enough, the Essive! > ['TY Finnish' 1956, A.H. Whitney, Less.10, (e) (i)(ii) & (f); pp.129-130; > "Finnish Gr."-Fred Karlsson, 1999, Ch.11, Sect. 49 & 50, pp. 123 -127. ] > > P.S. Thanks to Bruce, Alfred, and others for the interesting replies : I'm > still thinking them over! :) > > On 11/12/2007, at 5:30 AM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > >> Here's my two cents on ki- 'to become by itself', examples first, in random >> order: >> >> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> ki-sake 'to get hard, stiff' >> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> ki-wichas^a 'to have become a man, to have completed growing up' >> ki-wiNyaN 'to have become a woman' >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'to get soft' >> ki-ni 'to come back to life' >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)' >> thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened' >> wakhalapi ki ki-sni 'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold' >> >> There is a second usage of ki- with meteorological expressions, which, >> however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to >> become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" ki-? I'd >> say at least this usage is close enough to the above ki- to postulate a >> historical connection. >> >> ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old >> word" by informant) >> ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden' >> ki-wahiNhe 'all of a sudden it is snowing' >> >> The lexical productivity of ki- appears to be restricted. Statives are most >> easily compatible with ki-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, >> the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others: >> *ki-khate 'to get hot' >> *ki-'owothaNla 'to get straight' >> >> It could be that ki- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by >> itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out >> of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers >> years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen >> with too many of my grammar files! >> As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing ki- as an instrumental prefix, >> that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, >> this type of ki- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such >> as na- 'to become by itself' and ka- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there >> IS an intransitive ka-). Alternatively, ki- could be treated as an aspect >> marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive ki-, >> but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating. >> >> Regina >> >> >> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: >> Thanks a lot, Bruce, >> only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I >> found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten >> in the ground"). >> >> Alfred >> >> P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue >> (mila??) >> >> >> Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham: >> >>> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', >>> kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; >>> a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself >>> into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is >>> non-intentional perhaps. >>> Bruce >>> >>> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" wrote: >>>> Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an >>>> interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is >>>> a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it >>>> is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this >>>> feeling. Does anyone else have this impression? >>> Bruce < >>> >>> >>> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe >>> comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. >>> kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other >>> renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such?? >>> >>> BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" >>> found also in other languages. E.g. think of Hungarian adessive >>> -n??l/-n??l (at) also used as comparative (e.g. enn??l jobb - better than >>> this). >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> ""Alfred W. T??ting"" wrote: >>>> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi >>>> kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e >>> >>>> [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger, >>> to living in >>>> sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was >>>> their situation'.] >>>> (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they >>>> did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - >>>> that's the way it was). >>> >>> >>> (Lo?>> iyoki???ica un pi kin he e >>> a???awat'elya pi ???ni kin h???>> >>> (...) >>> >>> BTW, I like your reading of a-???awat'elyA <- a-wa???te (better than), >>> it's very >>> convincing. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. >> >> >> >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 11 18:42:37 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:42:37 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 19:44:05 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:44:05 -0800 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <406816.55639.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting myself) Jan said that the ki- in my previous example ki-was^tecakA should be analyzed as a dative, rather than as ki- 'to become'. I responded that both options might be possible. I'm still defending that claim, but meantime I found rich documentation of dative ki- in ki-was^tecakA in my own data, with both types of datives. For instance: waki-was^tecake 'I was good to him' Regina REGINA PUSTET wrote: (quoting JAN) >I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to >return to the original state". I was aware of this meaning which is listed in Boas/Deloria when I started working on ki-, but for some funny reason, my speakers didn't provide any data to support the hypothesis that 'to become again' is the sole meaning of ki- (which wouldn't work to well with stuff like David's ki-was>icu etc.). It might be an additional reading of the basic meaning 'to become'. >In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. This coincides with my findings. >So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. ki- might be productive enough to have produced words you haven't encountered. As for my own list, I would never claim that it is anywhere near complete. >ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." It's impossible to tell whether a certain ki- is a dative or a 'become'-ki- just from looking at the verb form. The translation might not always be helpful in resloving such conflicts. At least, in my translation, a secondary argument that represents a recipient or experiencer is not indicated. And I really trust my speakers. >Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Unfortunately, nothing. That's the weak spot in my data. As I said, I didn't do much work on ki- because I accidentally removed the file from the active field materials that needed double-checking years ago, as I found out yesterday. But having data on inflection might help answer the quesion of what particular type of ki- we're looking at in individual cases. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye ? 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a ? 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a ? 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni ? 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 20:09:57 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:09:57 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Dec 11 21:52:55 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:52:55 +0100 Subject: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' In-Reply-To: <630244.81440.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting Regina ) Jan said that the ki- in my previous example ki-was^tecakA should be analyzed as a dative, rather than as ki- 'to become'. I responded that both options might be possible. I'm still defending that claim, but meantime I found rich documentation of dative ki- in ki-was^tecakA in my own data, with both types of datives. For instance: waki-was^tecake 'I was good to him' Yes, this was the reason why I mentioned that. The dative usage with was^tecaka is just so very frequent that most speakers will immediatelly understand kiwas^tecaka as a dative. Another sentence example is Lila tanyan makhuwa na makiwas^tecake. - She treated me well and was very kind to me. I am sure that at least some of them will recognize the ki- "become" meaning as well, but it just isn't a very common thing to say. When one wants to command some one else to behave, they usually say Owanz^ila yaNka yo/ye. or TaNyaN ophiic'iya yo. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Dec 12 16:00:58 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:00:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Dec 12 16:59:59 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:59:59 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Dec 12 19:06:12 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:06:12 -0500 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <001701c83ce0$6e0c7470$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Some data from Crow bearing on ki-: The Crow cognate is chi (c^), and it generally has the meaning 'again' or 'return to the previous state'. axshe'e 'win from' chiaxshe'e 'win again' daksakshi' 'fit into' chilaksakshi' 'go back into place' Sometimes chi is infixed: a'akkapaa 'frozen' a'hchikapaa 'frozen again' a'apchi 'light a fire' a'hchipchi 'rekindle a fire' apa'ali 'grow' a'hchipaali 'grow again' These infixed examples suggest that the underlying form is hchi. Before stems whose first vowel is u chi becomes ku: du'tchi 'get, grab' kulutchi' 'take back' kuu' 'give' kukuu' 'give back' Chi 'again' is homophonous with chi 'possessive reflexive': dakaschi' 'carry in one's arms' chilakaaschi' 'carry one's own in one's arms' da'xpii 'embrace, hug' chilaxpi'i 'sit on one's own (as a hen sits on her eggs)' Sometimes it's hard to figure out if?a stem with chi has the meaning?'again' or 'possessive reflexive': baki'i 'beg' chiwaki'i 'pray' 'beg again (and again)'? 'beg for one's own'? I do not find chi with the meaning 'become' in Crow. However, things are different in Hidatsa.? I have a paper (unpublished?) by Wes Jones entitled "Phonology and semantics of the (h)ki prefixes in Hidatsa (Mandan, Dakota).? He lists several different meanings for this?prefix in Hidatsa: 1) come into the state (mutative) 2) act again (iterative) 3) move back/to one's own (vertitive) 4) act on one's own object (middle voice) 1) mutative: miicawe'ec 'I am warm' miikicawe'ec 'I'm getting warm' 2) iterative: pa'hcakic 'he cut it' kipa'hcakic 'he re-cut it' 3) vertitive: ata'aric 'he went out' kata'aric 'he went back out' 4) middle voice (possessive reflexive): rahxu'kic 'comb' kirahxu'kic 'comb one's own (e.g., hair)' Hope this is helpful! Randy -----Original Message----- From: Jan Ullrich To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 9:59 am Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Dec 12 20:06:45 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:06:45 +0100 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) & ki- "to turn (again) into" Message-ID: (Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote) > As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling" > (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", > "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception". > Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous > to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M. > > Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _slolkiyA_ - > "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!) > are used. Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this personality's great work!). Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below) where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a slightly different "hue". As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two threads, might be rooted in the same "soil". I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view? Alfred -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Brave against the enemy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 23071 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 09:54:06 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:54:06 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (quoting Bob) >Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 10:22:45 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:22:45 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <787181.5455.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina, I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the "non-vertitive" verbs. u -> ku hi -> gli ya -> gla i -> khi The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' (quoting Bob) >Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Thu Dec 13 14:02:44 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:02:44 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <001701c83d72$1a3c3aa0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > Regina, > > I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the > impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the > "non-vertitive" verbs. > > u -> ku > hi -> gli > ya -> gla > i -> khi > > The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back > there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the > aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? > > Jan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > (quoting Bob) >> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, > Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial > vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with > the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. > > Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is > that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface > in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go > home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes > itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the > POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, > place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively > attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed > myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are > that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. > Regina > > > "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from > the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of > accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of > languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, > cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always > applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all > of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally > proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to > think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. > > Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of > the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland > has done interesting recent work on how they structure. > > This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, > as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few > cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing > to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are > conjugated. I hope someone will ask. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET > Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. > >> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with > verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively > productive use with non-motion verbs. > > Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- > with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur > with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is > a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of > course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be > analyzed as a vertitive. > >> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its > (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only > invariant ki-. > > At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities > that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are > strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages > as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the > situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan > in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic > behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. > > Regina > > "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > > Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders > in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears > that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive > than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I > have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is > in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs > immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a > homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of > these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. > > All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with > verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively > productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences > in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem > to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I > would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in > any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to > get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the > syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) > extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich > Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' > > > > I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is > not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to > come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this > meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in > Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History > texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the > story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. > > It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to > become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in > kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines > kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had > appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) > woman again' > > In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I > am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words > come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and > cross checking. > > > >> ki-ska 'to turn white' > > > > Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to > an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN > owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted > (those things) with colors they often faded' > > > >> ki-suta 'to get hard' > > > > 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he > melted became hard again' > > > >> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' > > > > 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this > is often used for 'to sober up' > > > >> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' > > > > This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > > > >> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > >> ki-haNska 'to get tall' > >> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > >> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > >> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' > > > > These are all somewhat surprising to me. > > > > Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active > verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a > stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the > ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover > from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased > with' 1s: iyomakiphi). > > Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? > > > > Jan > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > it now. > > > > > > _____ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find > ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Dec 13 14:11:36 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:11:36 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For what it's worth, I agree with David on this one. The meaning 'toward home' is derived from the meaning 'back again'. I know it's not really relevant, but you have exactly the same derivation in Athabascan. Willem Quoting ROOD DAVID S : > > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the > basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back > (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- > 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' > anywhere around. > From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 14:18:58 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:18:58 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over > and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came > back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put > my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? Would be good to know. Jan From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:10:19 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:10:19 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <003a01c83d93$1a1cefd0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I > sided with, but perhaps it is. > Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the > vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? > I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam > filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 13 16:26:03 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:26:03 +0100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 17:45:41 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:45:41 -0800 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <004801c83da4$daf55060$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (Jan) >Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a >common source? That's precisely what I was wondering when I was reading Jan's last contribution to the list. My feeling about vertitive ki- 'go back' and possessive ki- with a possible interpretation 'go home' is that they are not that far apart semantically. My recent work on Lakota motion verbs suggests that the ones that historically contain ki- do not have to interpreted that narrowly as referring only to 'home' as destination. It is sufficient if the agent has some kind of more or less abstract connection with the destination, which could be rendered by 'place where he/she belongs'. The destination with such verbs could, for instance, be the birthplace of the agent, even if the agent doesn't live there at the moment of utterance. I still think that this implies a possessive connection of some sort. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 19:51:08 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:51:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <212345.30527.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regina and Jan's thoughts (possessive~vertitive), as Jan points out, are not necessarily in contradiction with David's and Willem's. We have to extricate the diachronic from the synchronic. Postulate first that the two /ki/ are indeed historically identical. 1) We don't *know* for sure what the original meaning of /ki/ was. The fact that it has similarities of meaning in all or most Siouan languages does not mean that this meaning itself wasn't historically derived from an earlier one, for instance. 2) Given (1), we don't have to stipulate that "vertitive came from possessive", only that "both vertitive and possessive came from the same source, whatever that may be". 3) If we *do* stipulate "vertitive came from possessive", there is independent support for this in the fact that vertitivity is more "naturally" semantically related to verbs of motion than possession is. There is reason to think disparate languages, let alone genetically related languages, could independently follow the path from possessive to vertitive in motion verbs while not following this path in other verbs. Grammaticisation, baby! In other words, possessive /ki/ may well have initially attached to verbs of motion as well as non-motion verbs in some common ancestor, and then in daughter languages followed separate but independent trajectories towards vertitivity in motion verbs alone. These trajectories would have occurred after /ki/ had lost its initial productivity, thus explaining why vertitive /ki/ has never been productive. From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Fri Dec 14 00:10:57 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:10:57 +1100 Subject: Fwd: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) & ki- "to turn (again) into" Message-ID: > Very interesting quote & accompanying thoughts, Alfred! > > First of all, thanks for recommending greater in-depth analysis of > E. A-O-H's style to the attention of the Siouan List-members. You > already know (perhaps 'ad nauseam'! ;) ) what I think of the > literary stature of this 'sui generis' Lakhota author, so I > appreciate very much your giving some serious consideration to his > writings! Besten Dank daf?r! > > I would very much like to discuss this (& many other A-O-H > sentences & constructions) further, a little later. In the > meantime, what do you make of this attempt at a more literal > rendering of A-O-H's Lakhota? : > > Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Lakhota : > > "Hoks^ila kiN thaNchaN kiksuyes^ni hiNgle, thawachiN kiksuyes^ni > hiyu k'uN he iyechel, taku iyukcaNpi kta okihipi s^ni ogna > kiksuyes^ni. YunkhaN woeye kiN lena ---- ChaNte t'inza yo! --ChaNte > t'iNza yo! --- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte > t'iNza yo! ---- olowaN ogna chaNcheg^a uN iyaphapi nah^uN kiN uN > kiksuya hingle." > > > Ann Nolan Clark's original : > > "The boy's body had become numb, senseless to the passing of time > as his mind had become numb, senseless to the pain of thinking. The > phrase ---- "be brave!" --"be brave!--be brave!---be brave!--be > brave! ---- beat into his consciousness with the rhythmic > regularity of the pounding of a drum." > > > Another version : > > "The boy's body had suddenly become numb, even as his mind had > emerged (lit. :'come out of it (the experience)') into > insensibility, insensible in the sense (lit. 'by way of/in the > manner of') of an incapacity for thought of any kind. And then, all > of a sudden he became conscious of hearing the following words --- > "Be firm of heart!-- be firm of heart! -- be firm of heart! --be > firm of heart!--be firm of heart!" ---- pounded out on a drum in > the manner (lit. 'by way of') of a tune. ('in a sing-song way'??)." > > > Hmm, I wonder why he didn't deem it necessary to use "s'e" or > "sekse" (i.e. following 'iyaphapi') with that metaphor? Perhaps to > emphasize the intensity of the boy's "stunned" state of mind & > emotion in his grief at his grandfather's impending death, a kind > of giddiness, or temporary derangement of the senses, underlining > the virtual reality of the sounds he hears within? > > > Incidentally, I very much like your suggestion of a likely > etymological relationship between the roots of kiksuyA ('remember/ > call to mind/be mindful, conscious of'), kiksuyes^ni 'insensible/ > unaware/unconscious/unfeeling/insensitive', and of ksuyeyA ('hurt/ > inflict injury); ksuyayapi ('be hurt/injured'), etc.. That seems > fairly persuasive, imho. > There is also, apparently, a verb : 'waksuyeyA/waksuyewaye' ('HURT > people's FEELINGS') on hand to strengthen your case there. > > Might that be E. A-O-H's way of rendering at least some flavour of > Clark's "senseless to the pain of thinking", which may (possibly) > be too 'alien' a metaphor for a Lakhota speaker? > Could it be as well, that E. A-O-K deemed that other idea : > "senseless to the passing of time", excessive, or artistically > superfluous in some way? > I too am wondering why he didn't attempt translation! > Also that 'ki-' prefix in the B&D's original sense of 'back again' > seems to be operating in a similar way to 're-' in 'remember/ > remembrance', isn't it? > Reminds me a little (etymologically) of the French word : > "ressentiment", for some reason! > Do you recall the way Thomas Hobbes once brilliantly defined memory > ('Leviathan' (1651): Part 1; ch.2) as "DECAYING SENSE"? > He went on to characterize "Remembrance" as : > "Calling to mind : the Latines call it 'Reminiscentia', as it were > a Re-conning of our former actions." (ibid. Part 1; ch.3) Wish > English was still written like that! > Lastly, here is an interesting germane passage from another of Emil > Afraid-Of-Hawk's translations of Ann NOLAN CLARK. > It occurs in the beautiful "There Still Are Buffalo" (NahaNh^ci Pte > YukhaNpi) (1942), (which I can only characterize, albeit somewhat > unscientifically, as a sort of extended poetic rhapsody in praise > of the Buffalo's life-cycle & mystical symbolism to the Oyate!) > Once more, to provide context & to give some idea of the talents of > BOTH writers, I will quote at some length : [from Section XV, pp. > 68-69] : > "Waniyetu kin thate h^upahu kin uN > kiyaN iyopte kiN iyecheca. > Waniyetu kiN hena iyopta upi. > Mag^az^us^ni kiN iyokhiheya manita ona thaNka he. > ChaNkhe waMakas^kaN kiN iyuha pheta ile ye kiN > kaithokap naphapi, > kholakichiyapi na thokakichiyapi, > k'eyas^ ichisakip, > WACHIGNUNIYAN > na IC'IKSUYAPI S^NI, > nipi kta uN he ogna echela, > inah^ni ichinaphapi. > YunkhaN uNgnahela mag^az^u ahi. > YunkhaN WakhaNthaNka/ thais^taminyaNyaNpi kiN uN > makhoche kiN thaopi s'elecheca kiN uN > woyazaN kiN asniye kiN he iyecheca. > Mag^az^u na ohakap icamna ahi....." Ann NOLAN CLARK's original reads : "The Years blow by on the wings of the wind. The years pass by. Drought is followed by prairie fire. The animals run before the flames, friend and foe, side by side, their brains NUMB, their hearts UNFEELING, only their instincts to live urging them onward. Then rain comes like the tears of the Great Mystery, healing the pain of the wounded world. Snow follows rain....." Alles Gute, Clive. > > > > > On 13/12/2007, at 7:06 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > >> >> (Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote) >> >> > As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan >> "concept" of "feeling" >> > (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do >> with "mind", >> > "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense >> perception". >> > Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for >> anything; desirous >> > to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) >> B.-M. >> > >> > Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs >> _slolkiyA_ - >> > "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be >> conscious"(!) >> > are used. >> >> >> Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and >> penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although >> I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this >> personality's great work!). >> Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for >> further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across >> the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below) >> where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a >> slightly different "hue". >> >> As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two >> threads, might be rooted in the same "soil". >> I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view? >> >> Alfred >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 14 03:54:36 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:54:36 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: Randy, That's really useful because it shows that chi- is in a prefix series preceding the instrumental prefix series. This sort of thing has been very hard to determine in the other language since 'vertitive' never co-occurred with an instrumental prefix (Crow dak- in this instance). Thanks! If chi-/hchi- is an extension of common Siouan 'vertitive', the Crow data answer a bunch of questions. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rgraczyk at aol.com Sent: Wed 12/12/2007 1:06 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Some data from Crow bearing on ki-: The Crow cognate is chi (c^), and it generally has the meaning 'again' or 'return to the previous state'. axshe'e 'win from' chiaxshe'e 'win again' daksakshi' 'fit into' chilaksakshi' 'go back into place' Sometimes chi is infixed: a'akkapaa 'frozen' a'hchikapaa 'frozen again' a'apchi 'light a fire' a'hchipchi 'rekindle a fire' apa'ali 'grow' a'hchipaali 'grow again' These infixed examples suggest that the underlying form is hchi. Before stems whose first vowel is u chi becomes ku: du'tchi 'get, grab' kulutchi' 'take back' kuu' 'give' kukuu' 'give back' Chi 'again' is homophonous with chi 'possessive reflexive': dakaschi' 'carry in one's arms' chilakaaschi' 'carry one's own in one's arms' da'xpii 'embrace, hug' chilaxpi'i 'sit on one's own (as a hen sits on her eggs)' Sometimes it's hard to figure out if a stem with chi has the meaning 'again' or 'possessive reflexive': baki'i 'beg' chiwaki'i 'pray' 'beg again (and again)'? 'beg for one's own'? I do not find chi with the meaning 'become' in Crow. However, things are different in Hidatsa. I have a paper (unpublished?) by Wes Jones entitled "Phonology and semantics of the (h)ki prefixes in Hidatsa (Mandan, Dakota). He lists several different meanings for this prefix in Hidatsa: 1) come into the state (mutative) 2) act again (iterative) 3) move back/to one's own (vertitive) 4) act on one's own object (middle voice) 1) mutative: miicawe'ec 'I am warm' miikicawe'ec 'I'm getting warm' 2) iterative: pa'hcakic 'he cut it' kipa'hcakic 'he re-cut it' 3) vertitive: ata'aric 'he went out' kata'aric 'he went back out' 4) middle voice (possessive reflexive): rahxu'kic 'comb' kirahxu'kic 'comb one's own (e.g., hair)' Hope this is helpful! Randy -----Original Message----- From: Jan Ullrich To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 9:59 am Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Since we made Bob curious about the ki- issue, I asked one of my most reliable Lakota consultants. Here is what I got from him: kiwichas^a means 'to become a man' and not 'to become a man again' although he said it could be used that way too, when talking about iktomi turning into a human when he has been an animal previously. This suggests that there simply is semantic restriction in which the "original" meaning can be used, which led to the lexicalization of the new meaning "to become". But remnants of the original meaning are found elsewhere too: the speaker said that kilakhota means "to become Lakota again, return to traditional ways" (as an urban Indian who returns to the reservation just for the ceremonial seasons or of people who had been attracted to the white man's lifestyle but returned to Lakota traditions), he insisted that it does not mean "to adopt Indian ways (as by white people)". He said it is somewhat derogatory, but not always. (This is further confirmed by a sentence I recorded in a speech last summer, where a lady says about Lakota children: Lakhotiyapi unspeic'ichiyapi kte haNtaNs^ kilakhotapi kte. - 'If they learn the Lakota language they will become Lakotas again.') On the other hand, when I asked about kiwas^icu he said it means 'to become a white man, to adopt white man's ways' and not 'to become a white man again'. So it seems to me that the prefix was applied to many words with the meaning "to become", while it kept its original meaning "to return to the previous state" only in some cases which were lexically more apt for it. The speaker did confirm that kiwas^tecaka has two meanings: 1) to be kind to sb and 2) to become kind. But said that the first one is more common. He strongly rejected kisni, kihanska, kiksapa, kiluzahan and kiokhate and said that such words are "not logical". On the other hand he accepted kithamaheca, although with some reluctance. Interestingly enough, as the 1st singular for kiwichas^a he instantly gave makiwichas^a (stative) and was very confident about that. This repeated with other ki-+noun verbs I asked later (as kiwinyan). This presents an interesting shift, since Deloria give wakiwichas^a and since kini 'to come back to life' still has 1s wakini. I am going to cross check on some of this info tomorrow with another speaker, but I have hardly ever had to correct anything I got from this one. It would be my guess that the shift to stativity has partly to do with the prefix being less productive. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu ] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:01 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they structure. This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are conjugated. I hope someone will ask. _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a vertitive. >So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. Regina "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again' In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking. > ki-ska 'to turn white' Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded' > ki-suta 'to get hard' 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard again' > ki-bleza 'to become conscious' 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up' > ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. > ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' > ki-haNska 'to get tall' > ki-ksapa 'he got smart' > ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' > ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' These are all somewhat surprising to me. Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? Jan _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! From rankin at ku.edu Fri Dec 14 04:21:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:21:49 -0600 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: All, Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. More later as things get back to normal here. Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Fri Dec 14 05:23:07 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, my sympathies with the weather issues. It's bad enough here (we've had record snow for this much of December, although November was way below normal), mostly due to too many people trying to do stupid things, but at least we've retained our electricity. Global warming is doing more than just heating up the arctic, I guess. My wife and daughter spent 3 weeks of November in Antarctica, where the snow is melting later and more slowly than they're used to. The penguins were having a hard time finding snow-free places in which to gather stones to make their nests; they're ready to lay their eggs but many of them are having to do so in the nmelted snow, which is fatal apparently. I gave up trying to unite the various "ki"s a long time ago, but I don't have the comparative perspective you do, and my instincts are that they all must have some common source --- the meanings and the positions are just too similar for any other hypothesis. I'm quite sure that kic^hi 'reciprocal' and ic^'i reflexive are mixed up in there too, somehow. But the various kinds of syncope have messed things up terribly, and I think there are some plain "i" morphemes getting in the way as well. The problem with Lakhota "khi" is that it's the vertative of "i", not of "hi". The latter's vertative is gli. I vaguely recall Allan claiming that "khi" preserves an initial "*h" that was otherwise lost everywhere in Lakhota; today's initial "h"s come from something else. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > All, > > Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. > > I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. > > If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? > > I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. > > More later as things get back to normal here. > > Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich > Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > > David, > > Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical > and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do > agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". > Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a > common source? > > Jan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' > > > > Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; > become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and > distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme > > in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply > the > cross-linguistic data for that. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> >>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >>> basic >> >>> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. >> Over >>> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and >> came >>> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. >> >> I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I >> didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > >> I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- >> that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > >> the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread >> as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. >> >>> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't >> put >>> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >> >> Would be good to know. >> >> Jan >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: > 13.12.2007 9:15 > > > > > From BARudes at aol.com Sat Dec 15 03:52:10 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:52:10 EST Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2007 11:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rankin at ku.edu writes: All, Pardon my temporary absence. We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday. The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night. I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's. There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not. I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear. And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns. I've redone it a couple of times. I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing. And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help. If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi? I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers. I'll have to look for Allan's. More later as things get back to normal here. Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas) ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' David, Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home". Is it possible that the possessive ki- and the 'return' ki- have a common source? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >> basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that > I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki- > that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to > the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread > as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 13.12.2007 9:15 Bob is correct as far as Catawban (Catawba and Woccon) is concerned. There are no prefixes having the form ki- or anything demonstrably akin to it that carry meanings comparable to the vertitive, possessive, or dative in these languages. The only prefix remotely similar is the Catawba locative proclitic duk- 'back' which is used to form verb stems such as duk=hu:- 'come back, return' and duk=ra:- 'go back, return'. Given Catawban phonology, duk- should come from earlier *ruk= or *nuk=, and the final *k might be cognate with the vertitive in Siouan although there is no good explanation for where the initial *ru- or *nu- might have come from. Blair **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 15 17:07:47 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:07:47 +0000 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether vertative and possessive could not be the same in origin in that it expresses some prior relationship between the subject/actor of the verb and the object of the verb with possessive and the destination in the case of a vertative. The gl- form of the prefix occurs in both as in gluha, gluza 'have ones own, hold one's own' and gli 'arrive back' and gla 'go back'. Bruce ROOD DAVID S wrote: Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert; become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and distinct from any of the others. I think we're saying that the morpheme in the vertatives is NOT the possessive. But Bob will have to supply the cross-linguistic data for that. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic > >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. > Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and > came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. > > I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I > didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that I > sided with, but perhaps it is. > Or are you suggesting that the ki- that potentially formed the > vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to the original state"? > I might be missing some e-mails from this thread as it seems my spam > filter has been acting up lately. > >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't > put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > Would be good to know. > > Jan > --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 15 19:35:57 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:35:57 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <544925.63783.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest over ki-. May I perhaps solicit members' opinion over another prefix, namely -ichi-, which is one I have difficulty in finding a name for and have referred to, in the absence of any better term, as ditransitive/reciprocal. In the ditransitive usage it seems to have an actor and two objects and the actor acts upon one object by means of the other or acts upon both in relation to each other as in ichiwanyanka 'see one thing in relation to another, compare' and ichicahi 'mix one thing with another' ichiiyopheya 'exchange one thing for another'. In the reciprocal usage it seems to only involve inanimates as in ichicas^ka 'be tied to each other', ichicakinza 'be rubbed together making a creaking sound'. There do not seem to be very many examples, though members may know of others. I would be interested to know if the form occurs in other Siouan languages and whether there is a term for it. Bruce --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 00:31:25 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:31:25 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, in October 1976. I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a couple of questions of my own to put to List members about the odd detail. Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information given will be "old news" to scholars here! Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, Mandan, Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & Catawba are lacking.) After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic motion stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 (THERE); MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 refer only to the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception of motion, to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these basic stems to form various additional transitive & intransitive stems. One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the underlying shape k. Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or TO AN EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks in passing that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its first appearance in print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his unpublished Mandan Dictionary (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates the four basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] - (THERE); MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives bracketed) : DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] (THERE); PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA [gliglA] (THERE). Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; "pass by on the way coming here [home]"? Or have I got myself into another fine (logical) mess? Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. 289-290, Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) observations regarding "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed by the addition of the vertative k prefix : "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form of the simple stems.(......) Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface forms. ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' hi ' and ' ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the vertative prefix is present. Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the vertative and non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' u' (to be coming), ' hi ' (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be going). (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms shows, however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need further refinement. Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , are of two kinds. On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / l / and / y / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we have just seen. On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / l / and / h / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent the same underlying liquid, since the following vowels are different, but ' L ' might also represent different liquids in those two stems. For the moment, we will consider that the two ' L's ' are identical, although one may have to be changed on the basis of comparative evidence. The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when the inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' has a perfectly regular inflection today, a now obsolete, apparently regular paradigm for this verb shows ' phu ' in the first person singular. The earlier underlying form of this stem has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants as ' (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? Regards, Clive. P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship the tragic & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, was! May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescas in pace. On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the > basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back > (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- > 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of 'home' > anywhere around. > > Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I > can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> Regina, >> >> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >> "non-vertitive" verbs. >> >> u -> ku >> hi -> gli >> ya -> gla >> i -> khi >> >> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to >> arrive back >> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the >> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >> >> >> (quoting Bob) >>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota >>> gli, >> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, >> with >> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >> >> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is >> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really >> surface >> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow >> imposes >> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the >> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply >> 'home, >> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't >> immersed >> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so >> chances are >> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. >> Regina >> >> >> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >> >> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from >> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of >> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is >> gi-li, >> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always >> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd >> reconstruct all >> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to >> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >> >> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details >> some of >> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda >> Cumberland >> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >> >> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting >> to me, >> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few >> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply >> failing >> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are >> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >> >> >> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >> >>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' >>> with >> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a >> relatively >> productive use with non-motion verbs. >> >> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive >> ki- >> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does >> occur >> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless >> there is >> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be >> analyzed as a vertitive. >> >>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >> invariant ki-. >> >> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities >> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan >> languages >> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in >> Siouan >> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >> >> Regina >> >> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >> >> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix >> orders >> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears >> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the >> vertitive >> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of >> ki- I >> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan >> cases) is >> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs >> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some >> posit a >> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of >> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >> >> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' >> with >> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two >> differences >> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does >> not seem >> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I >> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not >> occur in >> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to >> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the >> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >> (apparent) >> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant >> ki-. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >> >> >> >> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is >> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini >> 'to >> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with >> this >> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- >> given in >> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible >> History >> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >> >> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the >> meaning 'to >> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for >> instance in >> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had >> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) >> woman again' >> >> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. >> So I >> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the >> words >> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >> cross checking. >> >> >> >>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >> >> >> >> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to >> return to >> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN >> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >> (those things) with colors they often faded' >> >> >> >>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >> >> >> >> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he >> melted became hard again' >> >> >> >>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >> >> >> >> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', >> this >> is often used for 'to sober up' >> >> >> >>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >> >> >> >> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. >> >> >> >>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >> >>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >> >>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >> >>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >> >>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >> >> >> >> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >> >> >> >> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an >> active >> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of >> the >> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover >> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >> >> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your >> list? >> >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. >> Try >> it now. >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >> > newsear >> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 00:47:18 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:47:18 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <4E997509-09D8-4F10-91CF-90BB04058F39@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: My sincere apologies for misspelling ALLAN's first name! Regretfully, Clive Bloomfield. On 17/12/2007, at 11:31 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > AL(L)AN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, > in October 1976. > >>> From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Dec 17 05:04:59 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:04:59 -0700 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: <4E997509-09D8-4F10-91CF-90BB04058F39@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Clive, Allan Taylor is alive and well and very active, but not doing much with Siouan. He retired several years ago and is now very busy gardening (he was always a semi-professional botanist, working particularly hard to breed hardier varieties of plants that don't normally survive our winters; he just came back from several weeks touring old growth oak stands in Japan), playing with his 7 grandchildren, and reverting to his original Amerindian role, that of Algonquianist. He's working on a very detailed grammar of Atsina (Gros Ventre). I see him 3-4 times a year. Thanks for your summary -- I may or may not have a chance to think it through. There is no direction contrast for "hiyaya" 'to pass by', but the inceptive (start moving) verb for 'go there' is reduplicated iyaya. So the six basic verbs are: start on the way arrive here hiyu u hi there iyaya ya i And their vertatives follow the same pattern: glicu ku gli iglagla gla khi David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, in October > 1976. > > I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a couple of > questions of my own to put to List members about the odd detail. > Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information given will > be "old news" to scholars here! > > Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, Mandan, > Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & Catawba are lacking.) > After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic motion > stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : > > ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 (THERE); > > MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). > > He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 refer only to > the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. > Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception of motion, > to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). > "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these basic stems to > form various additional transitive & intransitive stems. > One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the underlying > shape k. > Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or TO AN > EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) > > Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks in passing > that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its first appearance in > print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his unpublished Mandan Dictionary > (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). > > In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates the four > basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : > > ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] - (THERE); > > MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); > > > Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives bracketed) : > > DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] (THERE); > > PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA [gliglA] (THERE). > > Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; "pass by on > the way coming here [home]"? > > Or have I got myself into another fine (logical) mess? > > > Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. 289-290, > Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) observations > regarding > "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed by the > addition of the vertative k prefix : > > "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form of the > simple stems.(......) > Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface forms. > ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' hi ' and ' > ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the vertative prefix is > present. > Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the vertative and > non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' u' (to be coming), ' hi ' > (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be going). > (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) > Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms shows, > however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need further > refinement. > Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , are of two > kinds. > On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / l / and / y > / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we have just seen. > On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / l / and / h > / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. > ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent the same > underlying liquid, since the following vowels are different, but ' L ' might > also represent different liquids in those two stems. For the moment, we will > consider that the two ' L's ' are identical, although one may have to be > changed on the basis of comparative evidence. > The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when the > inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' has a perfectly > regular inflection today, a now obsolete, apparently regular paradigm for > this verb shows ' phu ' in the first person singular. The earlier underlying > form of this stem has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." > > Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants as ' > (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? > > Regards, > > Clive. > > P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship the tragic > & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, was! > May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : Requiem > aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescas in pace. > > > On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> >> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the basic >> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'. Over >> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and came >> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around. >> >> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't put >> my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: >> >>> Regina, >>> >>> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >>> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >>> "non-vertitive" verbs. >>> >>> u -> ku >>> hi -> gli >>> ya -> gla >>> i -> khi >>> >>> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back >>> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the >>> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>> >>> >>> (quoting Bob) >>>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli, >>> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >>> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with >>> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >>>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>> >>> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is >>> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface >>> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >>> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes >>> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually the >>> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, >>> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >>> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed >>> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are >>> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative data. >>> Regina >>> >>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>> >>> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from >>> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >>> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of view of >>> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, >>> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always >>> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all >>> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >>> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to >>> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>> >>> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details some of >>> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda Cumberland >>> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >>> >>> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting to me, >>> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the very few >>> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply failing >>> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they are >>> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>> >>> >>> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >>> >>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with >>> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >>> productive use with non-motion verbs. >>> >>> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- >>> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur >>> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is >>> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >>> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be >>> analyzed as a vertitive. >>> >>>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >>> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >>> invariant ki-. >>> >>> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological irregularities >>> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >>> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan languages >>> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >>> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in Siouan >>> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >>> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >>> >>> Regina >>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>> >>> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix orders >>> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it appears >>> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the vertitive >>> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use of ki- I >>> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan cases) is >>> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that occurs >>> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some posit a >>> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think of >>> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >>> >>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive' with >>> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively >>> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences >>> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem >>> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I >>> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in >>> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to >>> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the >>> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) >>> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is >>> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to >>> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this >>> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in >>> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History >>> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >>> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >>> >>> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to >>> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in >>> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >>> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had >>> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) >>> woman again' >>> >>> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I >>> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words >>> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >>> cross checking. >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >>> >>> >>> >>> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to >>> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... oowa uN >>> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >>> (those things) with colors they often faded' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >>> >>> >>> >>> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he >>> melted became hard again' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >>> >>> >>> >>> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this >>> is often used for 'to sober up' >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >>> >>> >>> >>> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase. >>> >>> >>> >>>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >>> >>>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >>> >>>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >>> >>>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >>> >>>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >>> >>> >>> >>> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active >>> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >>> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the >>> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to recover >>> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >>> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >>> >>> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try >>> it now. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >>> >> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >>> >>> > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 05:30:16 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:30:16 +1100 Subject: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh dear, oh dear! Thank you David - it seems I've been grotesquely misinformed! I hope Allan's sense of humour is a keen one. Now, it appears, I given him a reason to say, in the illustrious company of Mark Twain : "rumours of my demise have been much exaggerated"! Not all of us get that chance, eh? But seriously, I beg his pardon, and that of everybody here! I am absolutely mortified with embarassment! Clive. (goodbye cruel world!) On 17/12/2007, at 4:04 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Clive, > Allan Taylor is alive and well and very active, but not doing much > with Siouan. He retired several years ago and is now very busy > gardening (he was always a semi-professional botanist, working > particularly hard to breed hardier varieties of plants that don't > normally survive our winters; he just came back from several weeks > touring old growth oak stands in Japan), playing with his 7 > grandchildren, and reverting to his original Amerindian role, that > of Algonquianist. He's working on a very detailed grammar of > Atsina (Gros Ventre). I see him 3-4 times a year. > Thanks for your summary -- I may or may not have a chance to think > it through. > There is no direction contrast for "hiyaya" 'to pass by', but the > inceptive (start moving) verb for 'go there' is reduplicated > iyaya. So the six basic verbs are: > start on the way arrive > > here hiyu u hi > > there iyaya ya i > > > And their vertatives follow the same pattern: > > glicu ku gli > iglagla gla khi > > > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> ALAN R. TAYLOR's IJAL paper, appeared in Vol. 42. (4) : 287-296, >> in October 1976. >> >> I will try to summarize some relevant parts of it, since I have a >> couple of questions of my own to put to List members about the odd >> detail. >> Naturally one realizes that most (if not all) of the information >> given will be "old news" to scholars here! >> >> Major attention is given to Dakota, Dhegiha, Winnebago, Chiwere, >> Mandan, Hidatsa, Crow, Biloxi, and Ofo. (Data from Tutelo & >> Catawba are lacking.) >> After stating that : "most of the Siouan languages have four basic >> motion stems", Taylor represents these stems schematically : >> >> ARRIVING MOTION : Stem 1 (HERE); Stem 3 >> (THERE); >> >> MOTION PRIOR TO ARRIVAL : Stem 2 (HERE); Stem 4 (THERE). >> >> He then goes on to say : "In all of the languages, stems 1 & 3 >> refer only to the end-point of the motion, i.e. arrival. >> Depending on the language, stems 2 & 4 refer either to inception >> of motion, to motion underway, or to both." (p.287). >> "All of the languages add several different prefixes to these >> basic stems to form various additional transitive & intransitive >> stems. >> One such prefix, found in most (or all) of the languages, has the >> underlying shape k. >> Stems derived by this prefix relate the motion to one's home, or >> TO AN EARLIER LOCATION ."(p.288) >> >> Taylor calls stems of this latter variety 'Vertative', and remarks >> in passing that although the term was first coined by Kaufman, its >> first appearance in print was by Robert C. Hollow, Jr., in his >> unpublished Mandan Dictionary (Ph.D. diss., Uni Calif., 1965). >> >> In his discussion of the Dakota dialects, Taylor firstly nominates >> the four basic stems (corresponding vertatives bracketed) : >> >> ARRIVING MOTION : hi [gli] - (HERE); i [khi] >> - (THERE); >> >> MOTION UNDERWAY : u [ku] - (HERE); yA [glA] - (THERE); >> >> >> Next, Taylor lists the following compound verb-stems (vertatives >> bracketed) : >> >> DEPARTING MOTION : hiyu [glicu] (HERE); iyayA [khiglA] >> (THERE); >> >> PASSING BY MOTION : (??) (HERE): hiyayA >> [gliglA] (THERE). >> >> Question 1 : What happened to the missing pair of stems meaning ; >> "pass by on the way coming here [home]"? >> >> Or have I got myself into another fine >> (logical) mess? >> >> >> Now, perhaps of greater relevance to David's email below, on pp. >> 289-290, Taylor goes on to make the following fascinating (to me) >> observations regarding >> "PHONOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE SHAPES OF THE BASIC STEMS", entailed >> by the addition of the vertative k prefix : >> >> "(The resultant changes) give some clues as to the underlying form >> of the simple stems.(......) >> Note that only ' u ' seems to have the same underlying and surface >> forms. >> ' i ' becomes ' hi ' when the vertative prefix is added, while ' >> hi ' and ' ya ' have ' l ' as their initial consonant when the >> vertative prefix is present. >> Underlying stem forms derivable from the comparison of the >> vertative and non-vertative sets are ' Li ' (to arrive here), ' >> u' (to be coming), ' hi ' (to arrive there), and ' LA ' (to be >> going). >> (The symbol ' L ' represents an unspecified liquid.) >> Consideration of additional related and other morphological forms >> shows, however, that some of these suggested underlying forms need >> further refinement. >> Morphophonemic alternations involving the Lakhota liquid, ' l ' , >> are of two kinds. >> On the one hand, there is a frequent and regular alternation of / >> l / and / y / , an example of which is the ' yA : glA ' pair we >> have just seen. >> On the other hand, there is the exceedingly rare interchange of / >> l / and / h / which is seen in the pair ' hi : gli '. >> ' L ' in the two stems ' Li ' and ' LA ' could possibly represent >> the same underlying liquid, since the following vowels are >> different, but ' L ' might also represent different liquids in >> those two stems. For the moment, we will consider that the two ' >> L's ' are identical, although one may have to be changed on the >> basis of comparative evidence. >> The suggested underlying form ' u ' also proves inadequate when >> the inflection of the verb is consulted. Although the stem ' u ' >> has a perfectly regular inflection today, a now obsolete, >> apparently regular paradigm for this verb shows ' phu ' in the >> first person singular. The earlier underlying form of this stem >> has to be ' hu ' in order to yield this paradigmatic form." >> >> Question 2 : Does this obsolete ' phu ' form explain such variants >> as ' (wa)hibu' (in add. to the more common 'wahiyu') from 'hiyu'? >> >> Regards, >> >> Clive. >> >> P.S. What an immense loss to North-American linguistic scholarship >> the tragic & premature loss of this dazzling scholar, Alan Taylor, >> was! >> May I pay my own small meed of posthumous tribute to him here : >> Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. >> Requiescas in pace. >> >> >> On 14/12/2007, at 1:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one. It seems to me that the >>> basic meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back >>> (again)'. Over and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." >>> -- 'went there and came back and...' without the concept of >>> 'home' anywhere around. >>> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I >>> can't put my hands on the paper right now, either. Bob? >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote: >>>> Regina, >>>> I fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the >>>> impression that the vertitives are possessive forms of the >>>> "non-vertitive" verbs. >>>> u -> ku >>>> hi -> gli >>>> ya -> gla >>>> i -> khi >>>> The only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to >>>> arrive back >>>> there', but I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for >>>> the >>>> aspiration in it. Could some one elaborate on that? >>>> Jan >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of REGINA PUSTET >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54 AM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>>> (quoting Bob) >>>>> Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > >>>>> Lakota gli, >>>> Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial >>>> vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan >>>> *ki-, with >>>> the vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I >>>> guess it >>>>> doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>>> Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental >>>> connection is >>>> that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really >>>> surface >>>> in Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go >>>> home', and ku 'come home' but whose historical presence somehow >>>> imposes >>>> itself when you deal with these verbs systematically, is acually >>>> the >>>> POSSESSIVE ki-. Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply >>>> 'home, >>>> place where one belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively >>>> attached to, as the destination of the act of moving. I haven't >>>> immersed >>>> myself into historical studies regarding this issue tho, so >>>> chances are >>>> that this analysis can be ruled out on the basis of comparative >>>> data. >>>> Regina >>>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>>> I'm sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems >>>> from >>>> the Lakota point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of >>>> accomplishments! I was looking at vertitive from the point of >>>> view of >>>> languages like Tutelo, where 'to go home' (Sapir's translation) >>>> is gi-li, >>>> cf. Biloxi ki-di, but Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope >>>> always >>>> applies) > Lakota gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd >>>> reconstruct all >>>> of those initial vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally >>>> proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel present in other subgroups. >>>> Come to >>>> think of it, I guess it doesn't "surface" in Lakota. >>>> Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the early/mid '70s details >>>> some of >>>> the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion verbs, and Linda >>>> Cumberland >>>> has done interesting recent work on how they structure. >>>> This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really interesting >>>> to me, >>>> as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only the >>>> very few >>>> cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply >>>> failing >>>> to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how >>>> they are >>>> conjugated. I hope someone will ask. >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET >>>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:09 PM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to' >>>> Thanks Bob, that helps a lot. >>>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- >>>>> 'vertitive' with >>>> verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have generalized a >>>> relatively >>>> productive use with non-motion verbs. >>>> Off the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of >>>> vertitive ki- >>>> with motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' >>>> does occur >>>> with motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless >>>> there is >>>> a connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of >>>> course, that historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' >>>> cannot be >>>> analyzed as a vertitive. >>>>> So the syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while >>>>> its >>>> (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to involve >>>> only >>>> invariant ki-. >>>> At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit morphological >>>> irregularities >>>> that are not found in any other part of the grammar -- they are >>>> strcuturally special. This might be the case in other Siouan >>>> languages >>>> as well, I just don't have the necessary background to judge the >>>> situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in >>>> Siouan >>>> in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic >>>> behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation. >>>> Regina >>>> "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: >>>> Looking at the verb prefix templates and examples of the prefix >>>> orders >>>> in several languages and comparing Jan's Lakota examples, it >>>> appears >>>> that the ki- we are discussing is more closely related to the >>>> vertitive >>>> than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most general use >>>> of ki- I >>>> have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me] Dakotan >>>> cases) is >>>> in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki- that >>>> occurs >>>> immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some >>>> posit a >>>> homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to >>>> think of >>>> these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations. >>>> All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- >>>> 'vertitive' with >>>> verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a >>>> relatively >>>> productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two >>>> differences >>>> in the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does >>>> not seem >>>> to undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. >>>> Otherwise I >>>> would expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not >>>> occur in >>>> any Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g- >>>> luzahaN 'to >>>> get fast' or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So >>>> the >>>> syncope rule is only productive with motion verbs, while its >>>> (apparent) >>>> extension to other verbs and nouns seems to involve only >>>> invariant ki-. >>>> Bob >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich >>>> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 2:20 AM >>>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>>> Subject: RE: Lakota ki- 'to become by itself' >>>> I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix >>>> ki- is >>>> not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice >>>> kini 'to >>>> come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used >>>> with this >>>> meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- >>>> given in >>>> Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible >>>> History >>>> texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is used in the >>>> story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. >>>> It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the >>>> meaning 'to >>>> become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for >>>> instance in >>>> kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines >>>> kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale >>>> had >>>> appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a >>>> (respectable) >>>> woman again' >>>> In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not >>>> productive. So I >>>> am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the >>>> words >>>> come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and >>>> cross checking. >>>>> ki-ska 'to turn white' >>>> Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to >>>> return to >>>> an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: ... >>>> oowa uN >>>> owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they painted >>>> (those things) with colors they often faded' >>>>> ki-suta 'to get hard' >>>> 'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^loyiN na kisuta 'The >>>> bullets he >>>> melted became hard again' >>>>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious' >>>> 'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's >>>> senses', this >>>> is often used for 'to sober up' >>>>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave yourself!' >>>> This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common >>>> phrase. >>>>> ki-thamahecha 'to get skinny' >>>>> ki-haNska 'to get tall' >>>>> ki-ksapa 'he got smart' >>>>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast' >>>>> ki-'okhate 'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat' >>>> These are all somewhat surprising to me. >>>> Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an >>>> active >>>> verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a >>>> stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some >>>> of the >>>> ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni - 'to >>>> recover >>>> from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased >>>> with' 1s: iyomakiphi). >>>> Regina, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your >>>> list? >>>> Jan >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! >>>> Mobile. Try >>>> it now. >>>> _____ >>>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find >>>> >>> newsear >>>> ch/category.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search. >> From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 15:58:01 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:58:01 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <512691.58696.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here's some more data on ichi-. In most cases, the prefix denotes physical contact in these examples. ichi-yugmuNpi 'they twist them together' ichi-kak'og^e 'to come together and rub against' ichi-wakayeg^e 'I sewed them together' ichi-kas^kapi 'they tie them togther' ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' ichi-makhokapi 'I am linked to them, hooked up to them' ichi-glepi 'they put them together' ichi-wagle 'I stacked them on top of each other, like books, or: next to each other on a shelf' ichi- also appears as prefix to postpositions: ichi-khaNyela uNthipi 'we are camping together' It gets quite interesting when ichi- is contrasted with the reciprocal kichi-. kichi- is the "real" reciprocal in Lakota, both in terms of meaning as well as in terms of productivity. Any transitive verb that admits a reciprocal reading is acceptable with kichi- in my data. ichi- is far less productive than kichi-, but sometimes there's minimal pairs like the ones below: iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' ichi-chuwapi 'they run against each other for office, *they chase each other' kichi-khuwapi 'they chase each other, like kids, *they run against each other for office' (no detectable difference in meaning) ichi-kag^ipi 'they care about each other' i-kichi-kag^ipi 'they care about each other' ichi- also occurs with intransitives: ichi-thokecha 'they are different from each other' (on the assumption that thokecha 'different' is not actually transitive). All in all, ichi- seems to express a relationship which is much more vaguely reciprocal than a relationship coded by kichi-, to the point at which there is no real reciprocity involved at all, but rather, just the notion of contact or more abstract concepts such as comparison. I'm still trying to come up with the reasonable terminological label for ichi- that Bruce has requested. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest over ki-. May I perhaps solicit members' opinion over another prefix, namely -ichi-, which is one I have difficulty in finding a name for and have referred to, in the absence of any better term, as ditransitive/reciprocal. In the ditransitive usage it seems to have an actor and two objects and the actor acts upon one object by means of the other or acts upon both in relation to each other as in ichiwanyanka 'see one thing in relation to another, compare' and ichicahi 'mix one thing with another' ichiiyopheya 'exchange one thing for another'. In the reciprocal usage it seems to only involve inanimates as in ichicas^ka 'be tied to each other', ichicakinza 'be rubbed together making a creaking sound'. There do not seem to be very many examples, though members may know of others. I would be interested to know if the form occurs in other Siouan languages and whether there is a term for it. Bruce --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Dec 17 16:25:29 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:25:29 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <457638.59594.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Regina, that is a nice and representative list and is also well in line with my findings. The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. but I think the two of us have discussed that before. > ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. Khoyaka and its derivatives have a very hight number of fast speech variants and idiolectal forms which might be difficult to decipher at times. > iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' > a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. I also agree that ichi is much less productive today and in fact some speakers tend to replace it with i- in some cases, so for 'to compare things' some say ichiwanyanka while others say iwanyanka. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 21:06:24 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:06:24 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <000601c840c9$70702120$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: (quoting Jan) >The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would >get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. With some ichi-forms I have in my files, there is free variation between subsequnt palatalization and non-palatalization. But yes, we have discussed that before, it's something that varies from verb to verb, from dialect to dialect, and possibly from speaker to speaker. >> ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' > I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. So would I. At least khoyaka is the only version of this verb I know. But sometimes the short forms have become the new standard, and the're worth quoting as such, Just think of the realizations of plural -pi. In some phonetic environments, the full form -pi is not acceptable to native speakers any more. >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: Hi Regina, that is a nice and representative list and is also well in line with my findings. The only difference is that the speakers I consult still use palatalization after ichi, so I would get ichi-cas^ka rather than ichi-kas^ka etc. but I think the two of us have discussed that before. > ichi-khokapi 'they are linked to each other' I would spell this ichi-khoyakapi. Khoyaka and its derivatives have a very hight number of fast speech variants and idiolectal forms which might be difficult to decipher at times. > iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' > a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. I also agree that ichi is much less productive today and in fact some speakers tend to replace it with i- in some cases, so for 'to compare things' some say ichiwanyanka while others say iwanyanka. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 17 22:11:19 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:11:19 +1100 Subject: another Siouan question + 'AHI' In-Reply-To: <43DBC14D-63C2-449E-99A1-358128E4E29E@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 08/12/2007, at 9:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > From (Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's) Lakhota version of Ann Nolan Clark's > "BRINGER OF THE MYSTERY DOG" (1941) > > On Page 62 (ibid.) : To provide some context : Little Dog, the boy protagonist, has left home on a lone quest to earn his manhood-name, and has just come across some interesting tracks : those of a man, accompanied by some mysterious large four-footed animal. He now recalls having heard stories told to his elders by visitors from friendly bands, of strange beasts, dog-like, but much larger, (s^uNka wakhaNpi) which could be made to carry burdens on their backs. His previous excitement at witnessing a buffalo hunt, now pales into insignificance. > > 1) : "(S^uNka Cik'ala lila waNkayeic'iye.) Ithokap taku ok'oka > woawachiN ichaNteiyapha k'uN he woawachiN lechala kin AHI > ichiyutakunis^ni na lila sutaya yuze." > > 2) : [=(Little Dog jumped high into the air.) His present state of > emotions, WHEN JUXTAPOSED WITH (lit : 'brought to')(??) the > excitement which had struck his heart previously, > diminished (that) by comparison (ichi- 'together") to > nothingness/annihilated the latter by comparison (??), and held him > firmly in its grip.] > >> NOLAN CLARK's original English reads : >> 3) : "Little Dog jumped up. The excitement that he had felt before >> was nothing to that which clutched him now." I am by no means sure that, In my translation in 2), (which is an attempt to determine the exact significance of the Lakhota words), I am by no means sure that I have rendered that ('di-transitive'/'second reciprocal'?) "ichi-" verb-form correctly, and would appreciate any observations people might care to make on that, or on this sentence as a whole. I am also quite puzzled by the precise significance of 'ahi' in the sentence above, a word which seems to be so frequently used by this author in comparisons (or at least in juxtapositions of some kind), as to be almost a mannerism! (I am aware of the use of 'a-' compounded with verbs of motion to mean : "bring/convey', and also of 'ahi-' added to certain verbs to express direction, as detailed by B&D at p.96, Sect.115). Is 'ahi' being used in some sort of Serial-Verb construction here, I wonder? Is 'woawachiN lechala kiN' actually the subject of 'ichitakunishni' (as it is of 'yuze'), and 'ithokap........ichaNteiyapha k'uN' its object, as I thought? I will track down & post some other examples of sentences using 'ahi' by this author, when time permits. A note at the back of these old B.I.A. readers, by Willard W. Beatty, Director of Education, in July 1943, states : "The preparation of material in the native languages is under the immediate direction of Dr. EDWARD A. KENNARD, (.......) EMIL AFRAID- OF-HAWK, an experienced interpreter of the older generation, translated this series of books." An Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk is mentioned twice (pp. 84 & 89) in the biography "Fool's Crow" by Thomas E. Mails (Uni of Nebraska Press, 1979), as the father of Frank Fool's Crow's sweetheart & bride, Fannie Afraid-Of-Hawk, (Emil's youngest daughter), in the year 1916. Best regards, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Mon Dec 17 22:12:16 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:12:16 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <834735.22617.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 23:51:28 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:51:28 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c840f9$e2926b20$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and k?i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually k?i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than k?i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: ?kkippeh??hi?xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from ??behi? (pillow) ?kkippah??zhiw?the - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from ?baha? (know) w?nda? ?k?ik?a?t???bi-am? - tied them together with it (150.17) from k?a?t?a? (tie) Ank??k?iban?? - we run a race together (165.12) from k?ibana? (race) ?k?ithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ?k?igtha?bi-am? - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from ?gtha? (put something on something) K?igth?dabi-am?. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) ak??gthi? - sat together on it (421.3) from agthi? (sit on something) ?k?ith?tte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from ?thitte (cross), ?thitta (across) ak??zha?i - lay together (433.1) from azha? (lie on something) zh??kki???he - situated lying together (627.3) from zha??a?he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) uk??k?ie - talk together (very frequent word) from uk?ie (talk with someone) I think ank??k?iban?? provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k?i and kki. - Bryan James Gordon From BARudes at aol.com Tue Dec 18 03:23:55 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:23:55 EST Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: On a comparative-historical note, the grammatical categories of reflexive and reciprocal are not marked by distinct verbal affixes in Catawba (or, as far as one can discern from the limited data, in Woccon). Reflexive is marked by a possessive form of the noun root /-ha:k/ ?body? (e.g. /d?iha:k/ ?myself? , /y?iha:k/ ?yourself?). Reciprocal is usually noted by implication or by a covert category (in the Whorfian sense), i.e., in is inherently present in a particular lexical (content) morpheme and there is no overt marker. However, there is an independent pronoun /?iku/ ?each other? that appears in certain circumstances where a reciprocal meaning is required. Catawba /?iku/ may be related to Lakhota -ichi-. Blair **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Dec 18 04:29:30 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:29:30 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: Bryan, Are you certain there is a /khi-/ prefix with a reflexive or reciprocal, etc. meaning in Omaha? I suspect Dorsey's transcription here. Kansa and Quapaw have kki- 'reflexive' and kkikki- 'recip.', both with /kk/, never /kh/. The only place I get /kh/ is with the syncopated form of the dative causative, k+hiye > /khiye/, but the k-h here is bimorphemic, not a unitary prefix. I defer to the folks who speak or are studying Omaha and Ponca on this, but I seriously suspect JOD's ear here. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon Sent: Mon 12/17/2007 5:51 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: another Siouan question Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and k?i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually k?i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than k?i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: ?kkippeh??hi?xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from ??behi? (pillow) ?kkippah??zhiw?the - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from ?baha? (know) w?nda? ?k?ik?a?t???bi-am? - tied them together with it (150.17) from k?a?t?a? (tie) Ank??k?iban?? - we run a race together (165.12) from k?ibana? (race) ?k?ithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ?k?igtha?bi-am? - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from ?gtha? (put something on something) K?igth?dabi-am?. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) ak??gthi? - sat together on it (421.3) from agthi? (sit on something) ?k?ith?tte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from ?thitte (cross), ?thitta (across) ak??zha?i - lay together (433.1) from azha? (lie on something) zh??kki???he - situated lying together (627.3) from zha??a?he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) uk??k?ie - talk together (very frequent word) from uk?ie (talk with someone) I think ank??k?iban?? provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k?i and kki. - Bryan James Gordon From linguista at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 21:14:15 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:14:15 -0600 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are quite possibly in the right about this. /kh/ versus /kk/ is probably the hardest distinction to hear, just for acoustic reasons (the chamber behind the closure being smaller than with any other distinction. My only recordings are from Roland Noear, and since he's hard of hearing he doesn't keep /kh/ and /kk/ very distinct either, so I wouldn't trust those recordings. The question goes to folks working with speakers in Nebraska, I would guess! - BJG 2007/12/17, Rankin, Robert L : > Bryan, > > Are you certain there is a /khi-/ prefix with a reflexive or reciprocal, etc. meaning in Omaha? I suspect Dorsey's transcription here. Kansa and Quapaw have kki- 'reflexive' and kkikki- 'recip.', both with /kk/, never /kh/. The only place I get /kh/ is with the syncopated form of the dative causative, k+hiye > /khiye/, but the k-h here is bimorphemic, not a unitary prefix. I defer to the folks who speak or are studying Omaha and Ponca on this, but I seriously suspect JOD's ear here. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Bryan Gordon > Sent: Mon 12/17/2007 5:51 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: another Siouan question > > > > Bruce - > > I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and > Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and > they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a > general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. > > kki and k?i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time > distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that > it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some > regularities. Usually k?i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we > analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal > function sometimes. > > Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than > k?i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern > speakers. > > Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: > ?kkippeh??hi?xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) > from ??behi? (pillow) > ?kkippah??zhiw?the - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) > from ?baha? (know) > w?nda? ?k?ik?a?t???bi-am? - tied them together with it (150.17) > from k?a?t?a? (tie) > Ank??k?iban?? - we run a race together (165.12) > from k?ibana? (race) > ?k?ithe - related to one another (84.13) > from ethe (related) > ?k?igtha?bi-am? - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) > from ?gtha? (put something on something) > K?igth?dabi-am?. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) > from gthade (crawl up on someone) > ak??gthi? - sat together on it (421.3) > from agthi? (sit on something) > ?k?ith?tte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) > from ?thitte (cross), ?thitta (across) > ak??zha?i - lay together (433.1) > from azha? (lie on something) > zh??kki???he - situated lying together (627.3) > from zha??a?he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) > uk??k?ie - talk together (very frequent word) > from uk?ie (talk with someone) > > I think ank??k?iban?? provides evidence that the reciprocal can > actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated > component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only > agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, > because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do > it". > > I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k?i and kki. > > - Bryan James Gordon > > > > From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 19 13:58:14 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:58:14 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Bryan, Thank you for the interesting examples. The strange thing about all of these in Lakota and to a limited extent it seems in Omaha, is that they all look so similar. Lakota has ki- possessive and ki- dative, which I think occur in slightly different positions and have different morphophonemics, then kichi- (final stress) reciprocal, kici- (initial stress) benefactive, then ic'i- reflexive (final stress) and finally ichi- (initial stress) the ditransitive/reciprocal. It looks as though it is deliberately designed to annoy and confuse the foreigner. Bruce Bryan Gordon wrote: Bruce - I don't know the etymology of most of these prefixes, but Omaha and Ponca have an interesting choice between two reciprocals as well, and they seem to be able to treat patients rather than agents, or a general sense of "together", in the same way as ichi-. kki and k??i are the two prefixes. Dorsey had a hard time distinguishing between these sometimes, so it's not always clear that it's a correct transcription, but there do seem to be some regularities. Usually k??i is taken to be the "real" reciprocal, and we analyse kki as a reflexive that just happens to have a reciprocal function sometimes. Reciprocal kki doesn't seem to be any more restricted in its use than k??i, at least in Dorsey. I don't know what the situation is for modern speakers. Here are some examples of the patient-oriented reciprocal from Dorsey: ??kkippeh?????hi???xti - just like pillows on top of each other (403.8) from ?????behi??? (pillow) ??kkippah?????zhiw??the - caused them to be unable to recognise each other (624.10) from ??baha??? (know) w??nda??? ??k??ik??a???t???????bi-am?? - tied them together with it (150.17) from k??a???t??a??? (tie) Ank????k??iban????? - we run a race together (165.12) from k??ibana??? (race) ??k??ithe - related to one another (84.13) from ethe (related) ??k??igtha???bi-am?? - came together again (two split pieces of ground) (291.10) from ??gtha??? (put something on something) K??igth??dabi-am??. - they crawled up on him together (360.5) from gthade (crawl up on someone) ak????gthi??? - sat together on it (421.3) from agthi??? (sit on something) ??k??ith??tte - crossed it (the creek) together (422.7) from ??thitte (cross), ??thitta (across) ak????zha???i - lay together (433.1) from azha??? (lie on something) zh?????kki???????he - situated lying together (627.3) from zha?????a???he (put oneself on top of someone, or put a body somewhere) uk????k??ie - talk together (very frequent word) from uk??ie (talk with someone) I think ank????k??iban????? provides evidence that the reciprocal can actually be an additional proposition rather than an integrated component of the main proposition - the verb has no patients, only agents, and yet the way that they are reciprocal is patient-oriented, because it more or less means "we race AND we are together when we do it". I wonder if anyone has found usage differences between k??i and kki. - Bryan James Gordon --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 19 14:15:50 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:15:50 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c840f9$e2926b20$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpr?va (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Dec 19 14:36:23 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:36:23 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <938462.47069.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 12:48:37 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:48:37 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c8424c$87acdde0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: hmmmmmmm Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpr?va (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 12:55:48 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:55:48 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <004d01c8424c$87acdde0$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Zpr?va (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Thu Dec 20 13:13:28 2007 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:13:28 +0100 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <756606.30574.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Paul kichi ichiyamapha. 'Paul and I bumped into each other.' from ichiyapha 'to bump into each other' which is a stative verb Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of shokooh Ingham Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: another Siouan question Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan _____ Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 20 13:35:21 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:35:21 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question Message-ID: shokooh Ingham wrote:> Interesting, but it isn't quite the same thing, because the verb is as you say a stative verb with 'me' as the patient and not really a reciprocal ie the other participant is introduced by a postposition kichi- ie you don't say ichiunkaphapi in the way that you can say wanunkichiyankapi 'we saw each other'. I'd be interested to know if true reciprocals of that sort can occur with ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:13:28 +0100 From: "Jan Ullrich" To: Subject: RE: another Siouan question Zpr?va Paul kichi ichiyamapha. 'Paul and I bumped into each other.' from ichiyapha 'to bump into each other' which is a stative verb Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of shokooh Ingham Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:56 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: another Siouan question Jan, Can you get examples of animates where the -ichi- expresses reciprocity between two animates without having a separate outside agent as with the 'he' in your examples ie a sentence like wankichiyankapi 'they saw each other' with an -ichi- Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoting Bruce Ingham) > My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. > Is that the case with your examples Jan? No, I have recorded sentences where animates occur with ichi, as in NuphiN ichiyauNphapi cha ksuyeuNyaNpe lo. 'He hit us against each other and hurt us.' IchiwaNwichayaNke. 'He compared them." Jan --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 17:13:59 2007 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:13:59 -0800 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <938462.47069.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The animacy issue can be resolved if we assume, as I have suggsted a few messages ago, that kichi- is the "real" reciprocal and ichi- is simply a prefix that indicates, loosely speaking, contact etc. I wasn't even sure that ichi- is a person marker (in the sense that it occupies the slots for person marking in the verb) when I looked at my own data, and now that I've seen Jan's last example, I'm even less sure. kichi-, on the oher hand, is a person marker, and it also inflects for person (yechi- second person, uNkichi- first person). ichi- does not inflect for person, as far as I know. As a genuine reciprocal marker, kichi- can be expected primarily with animates because animates are the entities in the universe that usually 'do' things to each other, while inanimates are normalyy inert. So this might explain strong statistical correlations of animates with kichi- in texts and other corpora. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Dec 22 15:42:06 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:42:06 -0600 Subject: FW: sunflower terms Message-ID: Dear friends, I received this from the archaeologist in Florida who needed terms for sunflower. Let me add my thanks for all the help. Bob ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at fsu.edu] Sent: Fri 12/21/2007 5:04 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hello, Thank you so much for all of the detailed information. I was able to open the document without any problem. These data are useful to us in showing that the terms are dissimilar to what we have in Mesoamerica. I really appreciate your taking the time to assemble the information for us. Best wishes, Mary Pohl -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:rankin at ku.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:45 PM To: Mary Pohl Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 29 19:34:28 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:34:28 +0000 Subject: another Siouan question In-Reply-To: <925340.15754.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Happy Christmas everyone. I have just come back from Norway, which reminds me very much of the Black Hills in places. Yes the ichi- prefix is not really a person prefix. It behaves very much like the other 'contact' prefix akhi- and the khi- one which I suppose are related and seem to often have some meaning to do with meeting in the middle or halving as in akhiyuhapi 'they carry it between themselves', akhiyuzapi 'they hold it from all around' and khiyusleca 'cut in half', akhilecheca 'be like each other' akhilehankheca 'be as long as each other'. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: The animacy issue can be resolved if we assume, as I have suggsted a few messages ago, that kichi- is the "real" reciprocal and ichi- is simply a prefix that indicates, loosely speaking, contact etc. I wasn't even sure that ichi- is a person marker (in the sense that it occupies the slots for person marking in the verb) when I looked at my own data, and now that I've seen Jan's last example, I'm even less sure. kichi-, on the oher hand, is a person marker, and it also inflects for person (yechi- second person, uNkichi- first person). ichi- does not inflect for person, as far as I know. As a genuine reciprocal marker, kichi- can be expected primarily with animates because animates are the entities in the universe that usually 'do' things to each other, while inanimates are normalyy inert. So this might explain strong statistical correlations of animates with kichi- in texts and other corpora. Regina shokooh Ingham wrote: My impression with the -ichi- versus -kichi- is that when reciprocal the ichi- occurs with inanimates and that the kichi- usually with animates. Is that the case with your examples Jan? This looks a little bit as though we have a verb class division rather as in Cree and perhaps other Algonquian languages, where verb types, but not necessarily stems, are specialized for animate or inanimate subject (maybe agent). This would mean that basically ichi- is inanimate reciprocal as in ichihkoyaka 'be linked to each other' ichipawega 'cross over each other', ichicawinga 'go back on the previous one (of paths)' , but if you have an animate agent, the reciprocity is born by the objects (patients?) as in ichiwanyanka 'compare, see one in relation to another', ichipasisa 'pin one to the other' etc. Similarly icihipasisa could mean 'be pinned to each other' if the subject was inanimate. Bruce Bruce Jan Ullrich wrote: (quoating Regina) >> iyeciNkyaNke ki ichi-yaphapi 'the cars bumped into each other, in an accident' >> a-kichi-phapi 'they hit each other' >I would argue that these don't represent a minimal pair. ichi-yaphapi comes from ichi + >iyapha whicle akichiphapi originates in aphA and kichi-. That's what I was trying to say, if you agree that kichi- is the reciprocal marker here. I am not sure I follow, Can you explain? Jan --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: