From poulsente at hotmail.com Thu Feb 1 20:10:22 2007 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:10:22 -0700 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Feb 6 02:56:26 2007 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:56:26 EST Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Tue Feb 6 03:16:18 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:16:18 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From marino at skyway.usask.ca Tue Feb 6 17:46:39 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:46:39 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the >dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post >something soon on the Siouan list. > >Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warr0120 at umn.edu Tue Feb 6 19:03:46 2007 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:03:46 -0600 Subject: change of email address Message-ID: Please change my address for receiving messages from: warr0120 at umn.edu to: patrick.w.warren at gmail.com Thanks. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 6 19:49:12 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:49:12 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I'm planning on it. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 6 19:54:22 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:54:22 -0800 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Mary, I probably won't make it up there. Sorry. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Marino Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:47 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.28/672 - Release Date: 2/6/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.28/672 - Release Date: 2/6/2007 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 19:53:01 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:53:01 +0000 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Yes. I'll be coming Bruce Marino wrote: Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Feb 6 21:31:34 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:31:34 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: Not sure. It depends somewhat on the date. I'd like very much to come if it doesn't conflict with anything. Catherine >>> marino at skyway.usask.ca 2/6/2007 11:46 AM >>> Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Feb 7 13:49:56 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 07:49:56 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Aloha all, I will be unable to attend the 2007 gathering. Regrets, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 oNska abthiN! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 7 18:09:06 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:09:06 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: It would be a nice trip, but it does not look like I can go that far. I dont even own a passport. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:49 AM Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Aloha all, I will be unable to attend the 2007 gathering. Regrets, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 oNska abthiN! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Feb 7 19:01:53 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:01:53 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I realize the passport issue may not be the main factor in Jimm's inability to attend ... but just in case anyone else is being discouraged by lack of passport, let me put in my 2 cents: Getting a passport is EASY. Just go to your local county courthouse and fill out a form. It does take a little lead time (unless you want to pay the fee for expedited processing) and you'll need your birth certificate and a photograph. But it's not hard, not expensive - should not be an obstacle. Just a little pep talk! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 07:51:47 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:51:47 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd very much like to attend, and it will depend a bit on timing and finance, since I'm trying to attend two different summer institutes. I have already taken the time to find relatively cheap ways to get there, though, so I'm feeling optimistic! - Bryan Gordon PS: The two institutes in question are the LSA Institute, which meets from 1-27 July; and the Indiana Language Workshop, which meets 15 June - 10 August. Obviously the two are mutually exclusive, but perhaps I can squeeze SCLC around one or both of them. I'd love to see the land where the mosquitoes are even bigger than in Minnesota! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Feb 8 14:15:30 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:15:30 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: Mary, If we can get foreign travel approval from our grantor (which shouldn't be a big deal if we plan it far enough ahead), then there will probably be two of us coming up from Kaw City, OK. But of course, it will depend greatly on the conference dates and the amount of time I have to work with the powers that be -- or at least the powers that control the purse strings. WíblahaN, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Marino To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 8 15:42:37 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:42:37 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Feb 8 18:20:54 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:20:54 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bob: In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided an interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how they are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. Group A departed from "here". Group B departed from "there". I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to determine that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. My question today is: Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all Siouan languages without exception, OR Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 8 18:53:38 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:53:38 -0800 Subject: Conference Message-ID: I too would like to finally attend the Siouan Conference, but this depends on cost and financial aid. Dave Kaufman --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Thu Feb 8 18:57:54 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:57:54 -0700 Subject: References to frozen hide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bob thanks, the method is still done. The old ways of addressing it > may be gone forever for most groups. Still it pays to know what to > look for when it does surface. I did get a good bit of feedback from Louis Garcia of North Dakota , Siouan List Member Jurgita Saltanaviciute of Ok., Benson Lanford of Or., and Louis Jones of Tenn.. I have yet to dig into my Mandan files or speakers, Hidatsa files and speakers, and Crow buddies. I thought the Dakota would be easy enough to find. I asked the Siouan group after digging in Rigg's Dakota Dictionary for two-days! My effort here is to try to remix effort with the ways the process is referred. My way of mixing words and material or process. I am cross referencing several languages to avoid going down a path that never existed. We all know how misleading words can be! Here are a few of the replies so far: Billy, I don't know if this would help, but my Lakota advisors on Rosebud gave the word Hayuhtatapi sniyapi (spelling: the second "h" with a dot above it, in sniyapi - the first "i" - nasal). They say it was done in the north country. Jurga Jurgita Saltanaviciute, M.A., Department of Anthropology, University of Oklahoma, 455 W. Lindsey St., Rm 521, Norman, OK 73019, http://www.sitekreator.com/jurga Tahacaģa. Ta = ruminant (tatanka, Tatokana, taĥca, etc); Ha = skin, hide, bark; Caģa = freeze, frozen). Another term used Tahasaka, but saka just means hard, stiff, etc. = a hard dried hide. Hope this helps. Have a great day, LouieGarcia_,_._,___ Pursuant to Billy's initial comment (and Andrzej Gussman's response) below, let me share something that Milford Chandler told me years ago, ref. Indian hide tanning.  Essentially I remember his comments that Indians tanned in various ways to obtain different results that were appropriate to projects in mind.  They did indeed sometimes freeze hides as part of the tanning process.  He did say that freezing the hides expanded the fibers and that the resulting skins were very flexible and soft.  The trick was to hang the thoroughly wet hides in the outdoors in freezing weather, and let them blow-dry in the wind.  If the hides thawed while still wet, you were back to square one. Mr. Chandler said that hides prepared in this way were not particularly suitable for moccasins-- that they wore out too quickly. For what it's worth-- and with regards,   Benson Lanford Benson, Everything you said makes sense. The hides I have done this way are ideal for clothing, but not the best for mocs. There is a separate term for moccasin grade skin in Dakota, "wa-ki'-hda-ka" n. dressed skin, leather, such as is used to make and mend moccasins with (Riggs). From what I gather from Wilson, just sanding soft pronhorn neck skin is very good to mocs on the trail. Nothing elaborate. I was talking to Rick Todd of Fort Benton years ago about the different ways of working hides to get the results you need for what you are making. I think everyone will agree that "wa-ke'-ya" n. a skin tent, a Dakota lodge. See wokeya. is the best for sewing beads and quills on and for making mocs and making grubby clothing. It is not ideal for fine clothing. I don't think it is an ideal for clothing at all, but when you scrap a lodge you may as well make use of it [wo'keya. n. a shelter, a cover, a booth. ke'ya, n. the large tortoise; a roof, adj. sloping, like a roof: keya haη, it stands roof like]. That should give you some alternatives to tipi Linda! Perhaps wet scrape and dry also play, or not, a role in this. Tent skins are usually dry scraped while clothing deer, antelope, and big horn are almost always worked wet. I know that is too simple to hold true for every hide worker out there. But, it is a thought. Feel free to attack now. Benson Salish and Pikuni women often do (scrape and brain) a bunch of hides and just put them on the bushes or clothes line to dry. They will work them soft from the dry later when they have the time. There is reference in the back of Blue Mountain Buckskin to this from a Yakama woman who tells the author that she never worked a hide the way the author did. I will have to go back to look, but I think she was implying dry scraping on the frame. I have seen images of Plateau women also dressing (softening) a hide with a staking tool while the hide is in the frame. These hides I assume are the very best for clothing since they are even and fully worked. I put my best "frozen" brained hide in the frame in sub-zero weather while wet and softened it dry in that same frame many months later. Not all Indian ladies do their hide work the same, or maybe they do. It is just someone sees them working hides only for clothing. Billy   Billy and Benson, I found your comments about freeze-tanning and tanning to purpose to be spot -on. I have been using the freezing process for years as an integral tool in doing soft and stretchy hides with lots of thickness and "loft" when doing wet-scrape hides that I needed to be that way; soaking a hide full of water then freezing it seems to aid in the breaking process at any point the hide needs breaking. Working a framed hide seems to result in a hide that is flatter with firmer and more tightly packed fibers that are better for moccasin uppers that need to be beaded. I also have discovered that taking thick rawhide intended for moc soles and saturating them with water and freezing them, and keeping them frozen while the ice evaporates out of them makes a particularly nice ,light,white, and flexible rawhide sole which is very easy to sew the upper to. Also, I suspect that the size and weight of the hide was the major determinant in making the dry-scrape, wet-scrape decision. Two cents, Louis Jones > Bill, > Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files > from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a > whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of > the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. > I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. > Bob Rankin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 8143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 04:42:51 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:42:51 -0800 Subject: Conference In-Reply-To: <173712.28483.qm@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I found out today that KU has already dished out its money for travel grants. This means I'll likely NOT be going to the Siouan Conference again this year. Dave David Kaufman wrote: I too would like to finally attend the Siouan Conference, but this depends on cost and financial aid. Dave Kaufman --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Fri Feb 9 11:31:46 2007 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Shea, Kathleen Dorette) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 05:31:46 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last year's. I have a current passport. Kathy Shea ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 9 17:13:17 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:13:17 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: I would think that any theory about Siouan motion verbs should be checked and tested against data from each subgroup/language. I think there's a good possibility that Linda's system would work pretty well in most if not all Mississippi Valley Siouan languages. As I recall, Giulia Oliverio found some differences in Ohio Valley Siouan, and I can't say much at all about the northern languages. You might also want to consult Allan Taylor's comparative article on Siouan motion verbs in IJAL back in the '70's. I'd say, by all means check it out in IOM. I'm sure Linda would be happy to provide particulars if you have questions about her system. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Thu 2/8/2007 12:20 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bob: In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided an interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how they are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. Group A departed from "here". Group B departed from "there". I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to determine that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. My question today is: Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all Siouan languages without exception, OR Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From linguista at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 23:33:09 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:33:09 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan 2007/2/8, goodtracks at peoplepc.com : > > Bob: > In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided > an > interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how > they > are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs > > into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. > Group A departed from "here". > Group B departed from "there". > > I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and > persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to > determine > that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. > > My question today is: > Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all > Siouan languages without exception, OR > Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & > Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" < rankin at ku.edu> > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM > Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > > > Bill, > > Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from > Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot > of > specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed > terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be > interested to see if anyone else has something for this. > > Bob Rankin > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell > Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > > > > I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your > help. > I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a > worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. > I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source > anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please > let me know. > > There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on > advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. > Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me > if you know of them. > Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Feb 10 01:55:44 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:55:44 -0600 Subject: Verbs of Motion (was: Any reference terms for frozen hide?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? > By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. Bryan, Could I get you to put that OP version into OP so I can follow your explanation a little better? Thanks! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 10 09:31:15 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:31:15 +0100 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lakota: hi (arrive here) - u (come, be on the way to arrive here) -> hi(y)u* (start there in order to arrive here) i (arrive there) - yA (go, be on the way to arrive there) -> iyaye** (start here, go in order to arrive there) *the [y] is epenthetic ** the yA is reduplicated I once found that interesting use of the verb 'hiyu' in that CULP model sentence: Hanhepi kin tunkasila TV ogna hiyu (about: tonight the President is speaking in television, literally: start there, i.e. in the White House, in order to arrive here, i.e. in my home). Alfred Am 10.02.2007 um 00:33 schrieb Bryan Gordon: > Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment > verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a > definite termination point). This is very different from English > arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they > entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). > Is it the same for other Siouan languages? From bmaxwell at mt.net Sat Feb 10 16:04:07 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: <763c0086053db0da0d92efbc872310d0@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Thank you all for your assistance. Billy From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Feb 11 03:19:24 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:19:24 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bill: I thought the replies from different ones were interesting and appreciated the sharing of the information, although they did not turn up a frozen hide term. I looked in my own JODorsey files for possible IOM terms. There are a number of terms that concern tanning, treating a hide, but nothing that suggests a special frozen processing. However, as you know, by using an instrumental prefix, one process may be changed to another. For IOM the prefix da- concerns an action done by heat or freezing. A Hidatsa elder shared with me 40 years ago, that when he was a child, that in the winter, buffalo would sometimes misjudge the frozen ice on the river to cross. At times, they fell through the ice and drowned. In the spring of the year when the ice began to melt, the people would pull out the buffalo carcass even when in stages of putrid decay, if I recall correctly. I was told that the steaks cut from such frozen animals were exceedingly tender and delicious. I am thinking that the story bears credence towards your information on tanning frozen hides, that were exceptionally soft and of superiour quality. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Maxwell" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > Thank you all for your assistance. Billy > > From bmaxwell at mt.net Sun Feb 11 08:04:18 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:04:18 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: <002601c74d8b$e5470c20$43bceb3f@JIMM> Message-ID: Jim, Thank you for that heads up! Nothing was in Riggs either, but as you said a switch in a prefix... Your story is making me hungry for green eggs and ham. Must go rush neighbor's Angus on to the ice of the Missouri just out the door. Billy Here is a more detail example of how to process works: I (Billy Metcalf) softened two deer hides today that I brained and freeze dried while we were having a cold spell. When I thawed them they were completely dry, then they laid around my shop for a couple of weeks. They were white and pretty flexible. Yesterday I misted them real good with a spray bottle then put them in a plastic bag over night. Today I pulled them over a cable for about a half hour each then put them in frames and worked them some more to make them lay flat and get a little bigger. All together I spent about an hour and a half softening them and they were done. Soft. billymetcalf at telus.net On Feb 10, 2007, at 8:19 PM, wrote: > Bill: > I thought the replies from different ones were interesting and > appreciated the sharing of the information, although they did not turn > up a frozen hide term. I looked in my own JODorsey files for possible > IOM terms. There are a number of terms that concern tanning, treating > a hide, but nothing that suggests a special frozen processing. > However, as you know, by using an instrumental prefix, one process may > be changed to another. For IOM the prefix da- concerns an action > done by heat or freezing. > A Hidatsa elder shared with me 40 years ago, that when he was a child, > that in the winter, buffalo would sometimes misjudge the frozen ice on > the river to cross. At times, they fell through the ice and drowned. > In the spring of the year when the ice began to melt, the people would > pull out the buffalo carcass even when in stages of putrid decay, if I > recall correctly. I was told that the steaks cut from such frozen > animals were exceedingly tender and delicious. I am thinking that the > story bears credence towards your information on tanning frozen hides, > that were exceptionally soft and of superiour quality. > Jimm From ardisrachel at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 00:25:40 2007 From: ardisrachel at gmail.com (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:25:40 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <58FA94662375C540AAE4EF15D8B3AEDD015AFC10@MAILBOXFOUR.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd very much like to come but am not sure due to pregnancy. The later it is, the more pregnant I'll be. (And there were some complications. Now, everything is good again, but 3 weeks of bed rest leaves me less self-assured of how easy everything will go.) I've got a passport. Do young children need one as well? On 2/9/07, Shea, Kathleen Dorette wrote: > > I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last > year's. I have a current passport. > > Kathy Shea > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino > Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would > really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I > would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. > > Mary > > At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: > > > You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if > the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post > something soon on the Siouan list. > > Randy > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Feb 14 00:28:14 2007 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:28:14 -0700 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6e9927690702131625x7658d662v2ed306ea4aff7e57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I hope I will be able to attend the conference this year (I've missed too many of them), but it all depends on the date. I need to be back home by May 26 or 27. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From marino at skyway.usask.ca Wed Feb 14 19:00:15 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:00:15 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6e9927690702131625x7658d662v2ed306ea4aff7e57@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: Hello Ardis, The dates we are looking at are: either 24-25 May or 30-31 May. The Canadian Linguistics Association is meeting here (Saskatoon) from 26 - 29 May,as part of the Congress of Humanities and Social Sciences. I favour the earlier dates (24-25) for the SCLC, so that we could continue into the CLA meetings, if necessary, because some would like to attend the latter as well as the SCLC. There are some undecided matters: 1) Are we going to have a comparative grammar workshop, or discussions about the contents of the volumes we were planning last year? 2) We don't yet know the CLA Program (soon to be available, I gather) - so we don't know which sessions of the latter would be most appealing to our people. It would be great if you could come. Both Canada and the US require children of any age to either have their own passports or to be included on their parents' passports. You need to check the details with your local passport office. Best, Mary PS: I really like your dissertation and look forward to meeting you if it works out. At 06:25 PM 2/13/2007, you wrote: >I'd very much like to come but am not sure due to pregnancy. The later it >is, the more pregnant I'll be. (And there were some complications. Now, >everything is good again, but 3 weeks of bed rest leaves me less >self-assured of how easy everything will go.) >I've got a passport. Do young children need one as well? > > > >On 2/9/07, Shea, Kathleen Dorette <kdshea at ku.edu> >wrote: >I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last >year's. I have a current passport. > >Kathy Shea > >________________________________ > >From: >owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on >behalf of Marino >Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC > > > > > > > >Hello all, > >I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would >really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to >attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite >answer now. > >Mary > >At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: > > > You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know > if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to > post something soon on the Siouan list. > > Randy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marino at skyway.usask.ca Wed Feb 14 19:03:20 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:03:20 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello David, See my previous message to Ardis. If we go with 24-25 May, you could possibly get home on (but not 'by') the 26th. I really hope this could work out for you. Best, Mary At 06:28 PM 2/13/2007, you wrote: >I hope I will be able to attend the conference this year (I've missed too >many of them), but it all depends on the date. I need to be back home by >May 26 or 27. > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 14 20:55:35 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Subject: MOTION VERBS Message-ID: Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group A departed from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back [to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11. gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = añi re. Depart back with s.t.; bring= añi gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = añi hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Thu Feb 15 09:21:02 2007 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:21:02 +0100 Subject: Deictic motion verbs In-Reply-To: <005d01c7507a$9595e790$710a133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Dear Jimm, thank you very much for sending around this list with deictic motion verbs in IOM. Most of the forms and meanings are quite familiar to me, because they have obvious correspondences in Hocank. Taking Linda's systematic description of the forms as a point of departure, it is easy to compare the deictic motion verbs formally and semantically. The respective forms in Hocank are given in the table below, which I adapted from Linda's dissertation (I hope you receive this table uncorrupted). The forms behind the slashes are your IOM forms; (abbrev. DC = deictic center, usually the speaker) phase of motion begin be on the way arrive -motion toward DC [GO] -motion towards base rée/re raahé hii/hi +motion towards base keré/gre karahé gii/gi +motion toward DC [COME] -motion towards base húu/hu huuhé/huhe jíi/ji +motion towards base gúu/gu guuhé/guhe kirí/gri Now, all forms in IOM have exact correspondences in Hocank except two of them, the first one hire (go off; depart) and 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone)). There is a verb in Hocank hiiré 'to go by', 'to go through', 'to go to', which seems to be the cognate of the first form in your list. I suspect it does not belong to the list of deictic motion verbs. At least in Hocank, we do not count is as a deictic motion verb (but who knows). The second IOM form gigre has no direct cognate in Hocank (we have no similar form in the dictionary), but it looks to me like a composition of gi-gre and gre corresponds in Hocank to kere (see the table!). I suspect the IOM gi- is related to ki-(REFL)/ or gi- (BEN) in Hocank, but I have no oppinion about this. Right now, Iren Hartmann (my research assistant) and myself are compiling a list of combinations of deictic motion verbs with each other and with other verbs in order to find out somthing about the asymmetries in the usage (and semantics, markedness, grammaticalization) of these forms in Hocank. On the other hand the two forms I marked in blue in the table above are missing in IOM? These are the 'being on the way' or 'progressive/ continuative' forms - certainly the marked forms (it is obvious, that these forms are composed historically). Interesting, isn't it? All the best, Johannes ---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht / Original message ---------- Datum: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Antwort an: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Von: An: Betreff: Re: MOTION VERBS Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group Adeparted from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back[to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11.gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = añi re. Depart back with s.t.; bring=añi gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = añi hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universität Regensburg Institut für Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universitätsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marino at skyway.usask.ca Fri Feb 16 05:58:09 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:58:09 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I now know the intentions of about 16 people (including myself) with regard to attending the 2007 Siouan/Caddoan Conference. Eight people plan to attend, 4 definitely are not coming, and 4 are undecided. A couple of the 'maybes' say that it depends upon the dates. Two possible dates are under consideration: 24-25 May and 30-31 May, with 26-29 May being the dates of the Canadian Linguistics Association Meeting, which is also taking place in Saskatoon. Two people definitely favour the 24th and 25th. Those dates seem preferable to me, because people could then stay on and attend the CLA if they so wish, and we could also find time while the CLA conference is going on to hold a Workshop, if we decide to do that. At this point, two days seems ample for the number of papers that we are likely to have. But there could be more. Anyway, I would like a vote on the dates at this time: 24-25 or 30-31? Please let me know if your attendance crucially depends upon which dates are chosen. Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? I hope soon to have a preliminary CLA program to send out (I am doing local arrangements - the Program Chair is somebody else). Best, Mary From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Feb 16 15:22:46 2007 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:22:46 -0700 Subject: SCLC 2007 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070215234354.022c3e00@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: I definitely prefer 24-25, but it's not absolutely certain that I can come. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Marino wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I now know the intentions of about 16 people (including myself) with regard > to attending the 2007 Siouan/Caddoan Conference. Eight people plan to > attend, 4 definitely are not coming, and 4 are undecided. A couple of the > 'maybes' say that it depends upon the dates. Two possible dates are under > consideration: 24-25 May and 30-31 May, with 26-29 May being the dates of > the Canadian Linguistics Association Meeting, which is also taking place in > Saskatoon. Two people definitely favour the 24th and 25th. Those dates > seem preferable to me, because people could then stay on and attend the CLA > if they so wish, and we could also find time while the CLA conference is > going on to hold a Workshop, if we decide to do that. At this point, two > days seems ample for the number of papers that we are likely to have. But > there could be more. Anyway, I would like a vote on the dates at this > time: 24-25 or 30-31? Please let me know if your attendance crucially > depends upon which dates are chosen. > > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some > other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar > volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if > there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? > > I hope soon to have a preliminary CLA program to send out (I am doing local > arrangements - the Program Chair is somebody else). > > Best, > Mary > From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 17:36:07 2007 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:36:07 EST Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: I vote for May 24-25. I wouldn't be able to make the later dates. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 17 00:15:26 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:15:26 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I recognize this post is part storytelling and part science...but what's wrong with stories? :-) La Salle mentions four tribes on the north side of the Ohio River that were overthrown by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars, from east to west: Kentaientonga (with 19 villages destroyed), Oniassontke (two villages), Casa (one village), Mosopelea (eight villages). [Page 589, Northeastern volume of the Handbook of North American Indians] HNAI suggests that the Kentaientonga were the Gentaguetehronnon/Gentagega tribe of the Eire Confederation. 1) If the the Gentagega Erie tribe occupied watersheds draining into the south shore of Lake Erie, along the Portage Escarpment, and... 2) If the Honniosonts occupied the watershed of the Allegheny River, with the western boundary of their homeland being the confluence of the Three Rivers at Pittsburgh [a map of the Allegheny watershed is available here: http://concernedcitizens.homestead.com/maplink_Alleghenyriver.html], and... 3) If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio, from the Miami watersheds in the west through the Muskingum watersheds in the east [Swanton p.61; a map is available here: http://opal.osu.edu/watersheds.htm; approximately watersheds 23-42], then... ...based on the order of the quote (Erie-Honniosont-Casa-Mosopelea), the Casa would, schematically at least, occupy the watersheds south of Ohio River/Lake Erie divide (the southern border of Erie Country), west of the Allegheny watershed (Honniosont Country) and east of the Muskingum watershed (the eastern border of Mosopelea Country) - namely, the watersheds along the western banks of the Ohio River in northeastern Ohio [approximately watersheds 19-22 on the map]. It would be neat if an old reference to a "Casa River" in northeastern Ohio turned up somewhere... ------ As far as the linguistic affliation of the Casa language, there is this: According to Osage tradition, the Siouan host traveled from the Siouan homeland in the VA-NC-SC Piedmont, up the New River/Kanawha River (VA-WV), to the Ohio River, and then north along the river to the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers (Pittsburgh, PA) where they lingered for awhile. Later the host (or part of the host) travelled down to the mouth of the Ohio River and from there spread throughout the Mississippi Valley. What if they left a trail of Siouan "straggler tribes" along the way? Based on the Osage tradition of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers being the northeasternmost point of Siouan settlement, and given that Casa Country would lie just west of this point...the Casa could conceivably be a Siouan tribe. Some other surrounding tribes would be the Siouan Monetons in the Kanawha-New River watershed (who could be stragglers from the initial Siouan migration through that that valley), and the Siouan Tutelos in their prehistoric homeland in the Big Sandy River watershed (formerly known as the Tatteroa River) along the border of WV-KY. The Quapaws would be further down the river, beyond the Mosopeleas. The Monetons (Big Water People) and Mosopeleas perhaps later moved downriver to become the Michigameas (Big Water People) and Ouesperies (later Ofos) [see Koontz and Swanton, and the sections on the Ouispe in Vol. 14 of HNAI]. However, if the Mosopeleas were not a Siouan tribe, but were the Turkey clan of the Shawnee as suggested by McCafferty, then the Casas might be Algonquian too. Or...they could be Iroquoian like the Eries and Honniosonts (Black Minquas). Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Lastly, does anyone know of any other reference whatsoever to the Casa people besides La Salle's? Travis Henry P.S. Who are the Cappas mentioned by Coxe as living with the Ousperies on the "Cappa River", located about 30 miles north of the Arkansas River? [p64 Swanton] They aren't listed in the index to the Northeast or Southeast volumes of HNAI. Is the Cappa tribe certainly indigenous to that stretch of the Mississippi, or could they be Ohio refugees too? Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers? [A map showing those rivers is available here: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/arkansas_90.jpg] If so, despite the suggestion that the river name "Cache" is from the Picardie French word for "hunt" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_River_%28Arkansas%29], is it possible that the name "Cache" was borrowed from /kasa/ or /kaša/? Is it possible that /kapa/ represents a Taensa pronunciation of /kafa/, which descended from /kasa/, in the same way that "Opogoula" is a extant Taensa pronunciation of "Ofogoula", with the /ofo/ supposedly descended from /moso/ or /moNso/ of "Mosopelea" and "Mons8pelea" via an intermediate form /woso/ or /woNso/ represented by "Oussipe" and "Onspee", as suggested by Swanton? References: Swanton's "Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley": http://www.jstor.org/view/00027294/ap020246/02a00050/0 John E. Koontz's "Michigamea, A Siouan Langauge?": http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm and "Michigamea is not Dhegiha": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=7493 Michael McCafferty's post on the Mons8peleas as a Shawnee clan: http://listserv.emich.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=siouan&D=1&O=D&P=760&F=P ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Feb 17 00:39:53 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:39:53 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: <219275.55550.qm@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 17 18:33:54 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:33:54 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Rory is right that "Casa" could be Kansa. There is no end of speculation on the part of ethnohistorians, archaeologists and linguists as to the ethnic identity of the multiplicity of town and tribal names found on early maps and in early explorer accounts. Ordinarily each scholar has sought to maximize the presence of "his" tribal or linguistic interests in such studies, but very little ends up being established for certain. That said, there is general agreement that "Cappa" and variant spellings represent /okaxpa/, the Quapaw name for themselves. I think this is generally unquestioned now. Beware of the term "Pacaha", however, which is sometimes claimed to be a transcriber error for the same group. This latter term is almost certainly a Tunican name for a different group. I expect that any Osage story about Pittsburgh representing a limit of Siouan settlement is one of those accounts that requires a lot of "interpretation". John Koontz will tell you that it's hard enough to establish that Dhegiha references to "Ohio" are really references to that river. In Omaha is seems possible to interpret the sequence differently, so the identity of the ref. is hard to be certain of. This gets us to the name "Kansa" (possibly your "Casa"). Perhaps the generalized usage of the name Kansa by groups within the Omahas, Quapaws, Osages and by the Kaws means that the term originally referred either to all five sister-tribes when they were living as a single group, or, alternatively, and I think more likely, to one of the clans or prominent social subgroups of this single, common tribe. We cannot know for certain. We do know that the Algonquian-speaking Indians of the Illinois Country, the Miami, Peoria, Kaskaskia tribes and others, called all of these five Dhegiha-speaking groups Kansa. In other words, the Omaha, Ponca, Kaw, Osage and Quapaw were all Kansa to their Algonquian-speaking neighbors and trading partners, and these Illinois tribes passed this name on to the earliest French explorers with its Algonquian language prefix, A-. These same Algonquian tribes of the Illinois Confederacy along with the Shawnees, named one of the prominent southern tributaries of the Ohio River Akansasipi or "River of the Kansa", after the people they said had formerly lived there. This was noted in 1699 by the French missionary-explorer, Father Gravier, (1699-1700) and appears on several maps, Nouvelle CARTE dela Louisiane et Du fleuve Mississip(p)i, produced by the French in 1701, 1702 and 1703 (Michael McCafferty, personal communication). Michael and I have discussed the name "Mosopelea" at length, and this correspondence can be found in the archives of the Siouan list, so I won't repeat all the discussion here. Swanton showed that the name, as it underwent alterations as the tribe moved down the Ohio and Mississippi, evolved into something the Tunicas interpreted as "Ushpe" (or something very similar). In a paper I did for the American Anthropological Assn. meeting back about 1980 I pointed out that the first two syllables, [moso] would, by regular phonetic change, have evolved into [ofo] in that language. These two progressions taken together have convinced me that the Mosopelea were indeed the Ofo. The idea that VA, WVA and the Carolinas were the "Siouan homeland" is still speculative. No doubt it was somewhere well east of the Mississippi, but we can't really pin it down just because the remnant of the Catawbas were in Carolina and some Siouan groups were in VA/WVA. That's my 2 cents worth. There's more in the list archives if you want to look it up. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Fri 2/16/2007 6:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language I recognize this post is part storytelling and part science...but what's wrong with stories? :-) La Salle mentions four tribes on the north side of the Ohio River that were overthrown by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars, from east to west: Kentaientonga (with 19 villages destroyed), Oniassontke (two villages), Casa (one village), Mosopelea (eight villages). [Page 589, Northeastern volume of the Handbook of North American Indians] HNAI suggests that the Kentaientonga were the Gentaguetehronnon/Gentagega tribe of the Eire Confederation. 1) If the the Gentagega Erie tribe occupied watersheds draining into the south shore of Lake Erie, along the Portage Escarpment, and... 2) If the Honniosonts occupied the watershed of the Allegheny River, with the western boundary of their homeland being the confluence of the Three Rivers at Pittsburgh [a map of the Allegheny watershed is available here: http://concernedcitizens.homestead.com/maplink_Alleghenyriver.html], and... 3) If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio, from the Miami watersheds in the west through the Muskingum watersheds in the east [Swanton p.61; a map is available here: http://opal.osu.edu/watersheds.htm; approximately watersheds 23-42], then... ...based on the order of the quote (Erie-Honniosont-Casa-Mosopelea), the Casa would, schematically at least, occupy the watersheds south of Ohio River/Lake Erie divide (the southern border of Erie Country), west of the Allegheny watershed (Honniosont Country) and east of the Muskingum watershed (the eastern border of Mosopelea Country) - namely, the watersheds along the western banks of the Ohio River in northeastern Ohio [approximately watersheds 19-22 on the map]. It would be neat if an old reference to a "Casa River" in northeastern Ohio turned up somewhere... ------ As far as the linguistic affliation of the Casa language, there is this: According to Osage tradition, the Siouan host traveled from the Siouan homeland in the VA-NC-SC Piedmont, up the New River/Kanawha River (VA-WV), to the Ohio River, and then north along the river to the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers (Pittsburgh, PA) where they lingered for awhile. Later the host (or part of the host) travelled down to the mouth of the Ohio River and from there spread throughout the Mississippi Valley. What if they left a trail of Siouan "straggler tribes" along the way? Based on the Osage tradition of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers being the northeasternmost point of Siouan settlement, and given that Casa Country would lie just west of this point...the Casa could conceivably be a Siouan tribe. Some other surrounding tribes would be the Siouan Monetons in the Kanawha-New River watershed (who could be stragglers from the initial Siouan migration through that that valley), and the Siouan Tutelos in their prehistoric homeland in the Big Sandy River watershed (formerly known as the Tatteroa River) along the border of WV-KY. The Quapaws would be further down the river, beyond the Mosopeleas. The Monetons (Big Water People) and Mosopeleas perhaps later moved downriver to become the Michigameas (Big Water People) and Ouesperies (later Ofos) [see Koontz and Swanton, and the sections on the Ouispe in Vol. 14 of HNAI]. However, if the Mosopeleas were not a Siouan tribe, but were the Turkey clan of the Shawnee as suggested by McCafferty, then the Casas might be Algonquian too. Or...they could be Iroquoian like the Eries and Honniosonts (Black Minquas). Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Lastly, does anyone know of any other reference whatsoever to the Casa people besides La Salle's? Travis Henry P.S. Who are the Cappas mentioned by Coxe as living with the Ousperies on the "Cappa River", located about 30 miles north of the Arkansas River? [p64 Swanton] They aren't listed in the index to the Northeast or Southeast volumes of HNAI. Is the Cappa tribe certainly indigenous to that stretch of the Mississippi, or could they be Ohio refugees too? Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers? [A map showing those rivers is available here: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/arkansas_90.jpg] If so, despite the suggestion that the river name "Cache" is from the Picardie French word for "hunt" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_River_%28Arkansas%29], is it possible that the name "Cache" was borrowed from /kasa/ or /kasa/? Is it possible that /kapa/ represents a Taensa pronunciation of /kafa/, which descended from /kasa/, in the same way that "Opogoula" is a extant Taensa pronunciation of "Ofogoula", with the /ofo/ supposedly descended from /moso/ or /moNso/ of "Mosopelea" and "Mons8pelea" via an intermediate form /woso/ or /woNso/ represented by "Oussipe" and "Onspee", as suggested by Swanton? References: Swanton's "Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley": http://www.jstor.org/view/00027294/ap020246/02a00050/0 John E. Koontz's "Michigamea, A Siouan Langauge?": http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm and "Michigamea is not Dhegiha": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=7493 Michael McCafferty's post on the Mons8peleas as a Shawnee clan: http://listserv.emich.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=siouan&D=1&O=D&P=760&F=P ________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 17 22:35:08 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:35:08 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Thanks Rory and Bob for the help with the Casas and Cappas. Reading the Quapaw chapter in the HNAI makes the Quapaw identity of Cappa village clear. The Geographic Names Information System (citing James Montgomery's 'The Nomenclature of the Upper Tennessee River') states that the "Acanseasipi River" river refers to the Tennessee River: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=121:3:530840878239254790::NO::P3_FID:517033 Is this the most likely identification of the "River of the Kansa"? Travis P.S. A couple errors in my original post: >>If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio<< That should be southwestern instead of "southeastern". >>Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers?<< That should be White instead of "Whitefish". What can I say?...I've been thinking about the Atikamekws a lot recently. :-) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 18 15:33:55 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:33:55 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: > The Geographic Names Information System (citing James Montgomery's 'The Nomenclature of the Upper Tennessee River') states that the "Acanseasipi River" river refers to the Tennessee River: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=121:3:530840878239254790::NO::P3_FID:517033 > Is this the most likely identification of the "River of the Kansa"? I don't know. The French maps are not accurate enough for us to be anywhere near certain just on that basis alone. Montgomery may have had additional sources, but often this sort of identification involves "interpretation". I'm not a geographer though. Bob From shenry74 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 19 03:50:09 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:50:09 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Rory wrote: >>Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least.<< Is anyone familiar enough with both the Dhegihan and Southeastern Siouan branches to suggest what a Mosopelea/Ofo cognate of KzaN'za might look like? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 19 04:09:08 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:09:08 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I mean KkaN'za, not "KzaN'za" of course. Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 04:14:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:14:10 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Sun 2/18/2007 9:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Rory wrote: >>Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least.<< Is anyone familiar enough with both the Dhegihan and Southeastern Siouan branches to suggest what a Mosopelea/Ofo cognate of KzaN'za might look like? Travis ________________________________ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 04:17:46 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:17:46 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: And I should have written */khoNfe/ or */khoNfi/ for the Ofo form. KkaNze has a final -e, not -a. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Sun 2/18/2007 10:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language I mean KkaN'za, not "KzaN'za" of course. Travis ________________________________ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 19 16:11:36 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:11:36 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob, is there a timeframe issue on this? My understanding was that Siouan /s/ => Ofo /f/ fairly recently. If Travis is looking at "Casa" in early French records from around 1700 or so, would this have been before or after the sound shift? If /moso/ => /ofo/, I would think it would be before. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 17:10:16 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:10:16 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: That's a bit hard to say. Some have tried to derive Ofo words like angofa or anglif from French, and, while /ang/ is the first part of various Fr. words referring to the English, it is also the pan-Siouan root for 'man, person'. The sibilant at the end of French 'anglais' was and is not normally pronounced except in the feminine. All in all, I've never been very sure we have a good handle on the chronology of this change. Nor is the phonetic trajectory very clear, although I've speculated that it may have been *s > theta > f. I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 10:11 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language > Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob, is there a timeframe issue on this? My understanding was that Siouan /s/ => Ofo /f/ fairly recently. If Travis is looking at "Casa" in early French records from around 1700 or so, would this have been before or after the sound shift? If /moso/ => /ofo/, I would think it would be before. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 19 18:04:09 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:04:09 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. I see. Then how far back do European transcriptions of Ofo words containing [f] date? And for the transjectory, do we know anything about the phonotactics of that [f]? Labio-dental? Bilabial? Or that thing in Swedish they sometimes write sj-, where the back of the lower lip kind of covers the front of the upper teeth? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Tue Feb 20 09:29:31 2007 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:29:31 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Deictic motion verbs Message-ID: Dear Jimm, thank you very much for sending around this list with deictic motion verbs in IOM. Most of the forms and meanings are quite familiar to me, because they have obvious correspondences in Hocank. Taking Linda's systematic description of the forms as a point of departure, it is easy to compare the deictic motion verbs formally and semantically. The respective forms in Hocank are given in the table below, which I adapted from Linda's dissertation (I hope you receive this table uncorrupted). The forms behind the slashes are your IOM forms; (abbrev. DC = deictic center, usually the speaker) phase of motion begin be on the way arrive -motion toward DC [GO] -motion towards base rée/re raahé hii/hi +motion towards base keré/gre karahé gii/gi +motion toward DC [COME] -motion towards base húu/hu huuhé/huhe jíi/ji +motion towards base gúu/gu guuhé/guhe kirí/gri Now, all forms in IOM have exact correspondences in Hocank except two of them, the first one hire (go off; depart) and 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone)). There is a verb in Hocank hiiré 'to go by', 'to go through', 'to go to', which seems to be the cognate of the first form in your list. I suspect it does not belong to the list of deictic motion verbs. At least in Hocank, we do not count is as a deictic motion verb (but who knows). The second IOM form gigre has no direct cognate in Hocank (we have no similar form in the dictionary), but it looks to me like a composition of gi-gre and gre corresponds in Hocank to kere (see the table!). I suspect the IOM gi- is related to ki-(REFL)/ or gi- (BEN) in Hocank, but I have no oppinion about this. Right now, Iren Hartmann (my research assistant) and myself are compiling a list of combinations of deictic motion verbs with each other and with other verbs in order to find out somthing about the asymmetries in the usage (and semantics, markedness, grammaticalization) of these forms in Hocank. On the other hand the two forms I marked in blue in the table above are missing in IOM? These are the 'being on the way' or 'progressive/ continuative' forms - certainly the marked forms (it is obvious, that these forms are composed historically). Interesting, isn't it? All the best, Johannes ---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht / Original message ---------- Datum:Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Antwort an:siouan at lists.colorado.edu Von: An: Betreff:Re: MOTION VERBS Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group Adeparted from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back[to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11.gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = añi re. Depart back with s.t.; bring=añi gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = añi hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universität Regensburg Institut für Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universitätsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de --- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht / End of forwarded message --- -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universität Regensburg Institut für Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universitätsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 20 19:02:45 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:02:45 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I don't know that there are more than one or two words that might be "Ofo" before Swanton's field work. The F phoneme in the Muskogean languages was bilabial in the days before English or French bilingualism. Now it is labio-dental for virtually all speakers. Swanton writes is like European F and doesn't find anything about it remarkable. Interestingly, the Ofo terms for 'Frenchman' and 'American' are both hard to find sources for, but neither has an F. As for the trajectory, we know that [s] varies with [theta] in some Siouan languages and that, even in English, [theta] and [f] are acoustically very close and easy to confuse. There are dialects in which [f] and [v] are substituted for voiceless and voiced theta and also foreign pronunciations of theta in English words that do the same thing. Russian speakers often substitute "vis" and "vat" for 'this' and 'that'. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 12:04 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language > I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. I see. Then how far back do European transcriptions of Ofo words containing [f] date? And for the transjectory, do we know anything about the phonotactics of that [f]? Labio-dental? Bilabial? Or that thing in Swedish they sometimes write sj-, where the back of the lower lip kind of covers the front of the upper teeth? Rory From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 20:35:56 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:35:56 -0800 Subject: Casa Country Message-ID: Bob wrote: >>I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Given the information from previous posts: 1) According to the HNAI, the Casa tribe was likely geographically situated between the Honniosonts and the Mosopeleas, thus in northeastern Ohio/westernmost Pennsylvania. (Whereas, the "Acanseasipi River" - likely the Tennessee River - seems to be the ancient home of one or more Dhegihan tribes, rather than the Casas.) 2) And given the (admittedly scarce) evidence for the Casa being a Siouan tribe, including: a) The presence of nearby Siouan tribes such as the Mosopeleas and Monetons. b) An interpretation of the Osage tradition with Pittsburgh being the northeasternmost extent of Siouan territory. c) The superficially Siouan appearance of the word "Casa", perhaps being cognate with "Kansa". ...I wonder if there was an "Ohio Siouan" language consisting of the Mosopelea-Ousperie-Ofo and Casa tribolects, alongside the "Virginia Siouan" language, conceivably consisting of some or all of the following tribolects: Moneton, Nahyssan, Monacan, Manahoac, Tutelo, Saponi, and Occaneechi. In this case, perhaps the Casa autonym is Ohio Siouan *KhoN'θe/*KhoN'se, showing alteration between theta and ess, and with the form "Casa" being the tribe's name in the language that transmitted the name to La Salle. In that case, I imagine the name of Casa Country as A'maN KhoN'se. Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 20:59:44 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:59:44 -0800 Subject: Pronouncing ManiN'-ithaN' Message-ID: Going back to an earlier question, in regards to the pronunciation of MaNniN'-ithaN'... I wrote: >>Amai ManiN'ithaN' : Moneton Country : The reconstruction of the name is from the Southeast volume of the HNAI. How would it be spelled in regularized Tutelo/Virginia Siouan instead of phonetic notation? For all of the Virgina Siouan names, where do the stress marks go?<< Bob responded: >>This represents my work for Ives Goddard on this name. It is not so much a "reconstruction" as a simple interpretation of the spelling in phonetic characters. The name was parsed by the two gentlemen who discussed it in their travel journals. Mani is 'water' and ithan is 'big' (related to Dakota thanka, etc.) The "dephoneticized" way to write it would be "Moneton" or "Moniton". Accent should be on the second syllable of both words in the native language. In English it should be wherever you want it. Personally, I put it on the 1st syllable.<< More specifically, what I'm wondering is, does Virginia Siouan have compound words. That is, does "Moneton" represent MaNniN'ithaN' or MaNniN' IthaN'. And, if it does represent a compound, does the stress change, such as how "counterattack" has a different stress than "counter" or "attack". Also, in Virginia Siouan, if it were a compound, would there be any blending/contraction between the phonemes of the two words (e.g. between the /iN/ of /maNniN'/ and /i/ of /ithaN'/), such as MaNniNtaN or MaNnithaN? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 23:48:53 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:48:53 -0800 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: Yet another question... What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? Bob spoke on the first elements: /Moso-/ /Oso-/ /Ofo/ And two big questions: 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" and "Onspee"? 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 00:42:11 2007 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:42:11 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: <222241.37074.qm@web32601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is how I summarized it back in 2004 for the OED: --- OFOGOULA n. From a Mobilian-jargon or Muskogean name, which is a reanalysis as 'dog-people' (cf. Chickasaw ofi? 'dog,' Apalachee akola 'people') of a non-Muskogean name of uncertain origin. NOTE (speculative): the source may be an Ofogoula word in ofo- that was derived from or is cognate with--by the regular loss of lexeme-initial /m/ and /w/ in Ofogoula and by the change of Common Siouan *s to Ofogoula /f/--an earlier name recorded as Mosopelea (and varr.) and perhaps applied to the ancestral Ofogoula people when they resided further north along the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' Based on emails from Robt. Rankin (2 May 2004) and Michael McCafferty (4 May 2004), and on E. Drechsel Mobilian Jargon (1997) 318, J. M. Crawford Studies SE Indian Langs. (1975) 89, and J. Swanton Indian Tribes Lower Mississippi Valley (1911) 38. --- Alan > What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras > of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? > > Bob spoke on the first elements: > > /Moso-/ > > /Oso-/ > > /Ofo/ > > And two big questions: > > 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" > and "Onspee"? > > 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the > autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe > became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? > > Travis From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Feb 25 00:58:34 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:58:34 -0800 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: <45E0DB63.7020504@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was supposed to mean. Didn't Bob come up with an alternate, non-Algonquian etymology for 'Mosopelea'? Dave > Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' > < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 03:31:08 2007 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:31:08 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was > supposed to mean. Michael's lengthy message on the subject is in the Siouan List archives for May 2004, under the "'eight' some more" thread (216 lines). It's a moot point for the OED for the time being, as the editors chose not to include OFOGOULA in the current revision, presumably for lack of sufficient attestations in published English-language sources. I found I did submit a revision of the etymology slip in 2005, but I changed only the first paragraph. In the second paragraph, I persisted with "probably" instead of "possibly" for the Illinois etymology. Dave's message tonight suggests that even "possibly" is too strong. Maybe Michael could discuss his proposal with Dave. I'd like to be able to submit another revision with a surer assessment of the possibility of an Algonquian etymon--just in case OFOGOULA makes it in in the future! --- OFOGOULA n. From a Mobilian Jargon or Muskogean name, which is a reanalysis as 'dog-people', incorporating Mobilian <-oucoula> 'people', of a non-Muskogean name of uncertain origin; cf. Chickasaw ofi? 'dog' and okla 'town', Choctaw ofi 'dog' and oklah 'people', and Apalachee akola 'people'. --- Alan From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 16:12:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:12:10 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: My thought was that the Ohio Valley Moose-turkey was the cousin of the Wyoming Jackalope (Lepus temperamentalis). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Sat 2/24/2007 6:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was supposed to mean. Didn't Bob come up with an alternate, non-Algonquian etymology for 'Mosopelea'? Dave > Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' > < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 16:49:25 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:49:25 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: > What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" and "Onspee"? The nasal vowel, [oN] would be part of the original pronunciation. In Siouan languages a nasal consonant, [m] or [n] nearly always implies the presence of nasality on the following vowel. Otherwise the consonants would have been [w] and [r] or [l]. Transcribers often wrote the nasality as a feature of the consonant rather than the vowel. 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? There is no authoritative answer to this. IF moso- was the root, these would be suffixes of some kind. Within Siouan there are numerous possibilities for things like -pe or -re or -ri, etc. The bottom line is that no one can be sure just what they might have signified. Dave Kaufman has discovered that in Biloxi -re/-ri is used to mark nominals at first mention in a discourse. Whether it is used with ethnonyms or place names is anyone's guess. Note that we don't really have a good meaning for the moso- part. It certainly did not mean 'dog' in any Siouan language. The name "Nation du Chongue" or "dog people" came from a Muskogean MISinterpretation of the word [ofo] after it had lost its M, and S had become [f]. [ofo] was too similar to Choctaw [ofi] 'dog' for them to overlook. The original Siouan meaning of *moNso- is unknown. (There is at least a resemblance to *maNs- 'metal, copper', later 'iron', but that's just guessing.) The -pe portion of the ethnonym was still pronounced when these people came in contact with the Tunica, because Swanton found it on their term for the Ofos, namely . The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:00:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:00:49 -0600 Subject: Pronouncing ManiN'-ithaN' Message-ID: > The "dephoneticized" way to write it would be "Moneton" or "Moniton". Accent should be on the second syllable of both words in the native language. In English it should be wherever you want it. Personally, I put it on the 1st syllable.<< I should have added Monyton, with a Y, to the list, since I believe that's the original spelling. > More specifically, what I'm wondering is, does Virginia Siouan have compound words. That is, does "Moneton" represent MaNniN'ithaN' or MaNniN' IthaN'. And, if it does represent a compound, does the stress change, such as how "counterattack" has a different stress than "counter" or "attack". Also, in Virginia Siouan, if it were a compound, would there be any blending/contraction between the phonemes of the two words (e.g. between the /iN/ of /maNniN'/ and /i/ of /ithaN'/), such as MaNniNtaN or MaNnithaN? You ask questions that are tougher than you think. Accent in compounds is a vexed question in these extinct Siouan languages. The problem is that in some Siouan languages (maybe all) there are two different kinds of compounds and they differ by their accentual patterns. Willem DeReuse discusses these in a treatment of Dakotan compounding whose title I don't have at hand. It's a very thorough job though. It's safe to say that ALL Siouan languages use compounding as a common derivational device, so it's safe to say that this is true of the OVS languages too. And it is common throughout Siouan for vowels at the end of one word to coalesce with vowels that begin the next word if they are identical. In fact that is found worldwide. And even if it weren't a characteristic of a language, it's a characteristic of naive folks who try to write foreign words and even linguists trained in transcription. So I guess that only leaves the compound stress question unanswered and unanswerable. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:21:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:21:29 -0600 Subject: Ohio Valley Siouan breakdown and evidence redux. Message-ID: 2) And given the (admittedly scarce) evidence for the Casa being a Siouan tribe, I'd have to say, not just 'scarce' . . . non-existant actually. > ...I wonder if there was an "Ohio Siouan" language consisting of the Mosopelea-Ousperie-Ofo and Casa tribolects, alongside the "Virginia Siouan" language, conceivably consisting of some or all of the following tribolects: Moneton, Nahyssan, Monacan, Manahoac, Tutelo, Saponi, and Occaneechi. The evidence only permits us a couple of conclusions: 1. Biloxi and Ofo (along with all of its earlier spellings) constitute one branch of the Ohio Valley subgroup of Siouan. 2. Tutelo, Saponi, Monyton and Occaneechi constitute the other (Virginia) branch of the OVS subgroup. Those are the ONLY languages for which we have any sort of proof of Siouan identity (and Occaneechi is hearsay). Nahyssan (and variant spellings) is just the Tutelo name for "Tutelo" (Tutelo was a name given them by Iroquoian speakers), and so not a separate group/language. Unfortunately "Manahoac, Monacan, Casa" (along with several other names like "Stuckanox, Tomahittan", etc.) cannot be identified as Siouan-speaking. We just don't know for sure who they were. If you uncover accounts in which more than one individual says something like "these guys speak the same language as the Tutelos", it would be a real contribution. But thus far I haven't seen anything like that. Various scholars have produced long lists of alledgedly Siouan names in VA and WV, but none of them adds up to reliable evidence. > In this case, perhaps the Casa autonym is Ohio Siouan *KhoN'?e/*KhoN'se, showing alteration between theta and ess, and with the form "Casa" being the tribe's name in the language that transmitted the name to La Salle. I'd say the identification of "Casa" as Kansa can only be taken seriously if they were located right around areas in which the ethnonym "Akans(e)a" turns up in early accounts or maps. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:24:04 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:24:04 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? Speaking just for myself, I think I'd like to wait and have the next syntax workshop the following year. I'm just not going to have time to do two papers for this year's meeting. One is going to be straining things, as I have to do two lectures at Ohio State the week after the Siouan Conference. After all, I'm supposed to be "retired", ya know. Bob From marino at skyway.usask.ca Mon Feb 26 05:59:57 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:59:57 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Bob, I am open to any decision that possible contributors to a workshop make about when to have the next one. Given that we will almost certainly be fewer in number this year, and some of our key contributors can't come, it would seem sensible to defer it until SCLC 2008. You are the only person who has expressed a view about this. So far, no one who plans to come has objected to 24-25 May, and one person definitely can't come on 30-31 May, so we will have it on 24-25 May. Best, Mary At 11:24 AM 2/25/2007, you wrote: > > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some >other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar >volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if >there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? > >Speaking just for myself, I think I'd like to wait and have the next >syntax workshop the following year. I'm just not going to have time to do >two papers for this year's meeting. One is going to be straining things, >as I have to do two lectures at Ohio State the week after the Siouan >Conference. > >After all, I'm supposed to be "retired", ya know. > >Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 26 21:42:16 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:42:16 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. If this associationa is valid, and /moso/ => /ofo/, doesn't that seem to confirm that the shift from Siouan /s/ to Ofo /f/ took place fairly recently, i.e. roughly 17th to 19th century? Do we have any definite Ofo vocabulary recorded prior to Swanton? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 27 15:18:22 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:18:22 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: It would at least show that the rule was still active then. But the change has to be after the Biloxi-Ofo split in any event. I don't actually know what word(s) was passed along before Swanton, but people knew that Ofo had an F sound, so they had assumed it was a Muskogean language. It was Swanton who identified it as Siouan. It may have come from the name "Ofo" alone. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/26/2007 3:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos > The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. If this associationa is valid, and /moso/ => /ofo/, doesn't that seem to confirm that the shift from Siouan /s/ to Ofo /f/ took place fairly recently, i.e. roughly 17th to 19th century? Do we have any definite Ofo vocabulary recorded prior to Swanton? Rory From poulsente at hotmail.com Thu Feb 1 20:10:22 2007 From: poulsente at hotmail.com (tom poulsen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:10:22 -0700 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Feb 6 02:56:26 2007 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:56:26 EST Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Tue Feb 6 03:16:18 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:16:18 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From marino at skyway.usask.ca Tue Feb 6 17:46:39 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:46:39 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the >dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post >something soon on the Siouan list. > >Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warr0120 at umn.edu Tue Feb 6 19:03:46 2007 From: warr0120 at umn.edu (Patrick Warren) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:03:46 -0600 Subject: change of email address Message-ID: Please change my address for receiving messages from: warr0120 at umn.edu to: patrick.w.warren at gmail.com Thanks. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 6 19:49:12 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:49:12 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I'm planning on it. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 6 19:54:22 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:54:22 -0800 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Mary, I probably won't make it up there. Sorry. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Marino Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:47 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.28/672 - Release Date: 2/6/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.28/672 - Release Date: 2/6/2007 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 19:53:01 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:53:01 +0000 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Yes. I'll be coming Bruce Marino wrote: Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos ? NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Feb 6 21:31:34 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:31:34 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: Not sure. It depends somewhat on the date. I'd like very much to come if it doesn't conflict with anything. Catherine >>> marino at skyway.usask.ca 2/6/2007 11:46 AM >>> Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Feb 7 13:49:56 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 07:49:56 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070206114426.021f9080@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: Aloha all, I will be unable to attend the 2007 gathering. Regrets, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 oNska abthiN! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 7 18:09:06 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:09:06 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: It would be a nice trip, but it does not look like I can go that far. I dont even own a passport. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:49 AM Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Aloha all, I will be unable to attend the 2007 gathering. Regrets, Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 oNska abthiN! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Feb 7 19:01:53 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:01:53 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I realize the passport issue may not be the main factor in Jimm's inability to attend ... but just in case anyone else is being discouraged by lack of passport, let me put in my 2 cents: Getting a passport is EASY. Just go to your local county courthouse and fill out a form. It does take a little lead time (unless you want to pay the fee for expedited processing) and you'll need your birth certificate and a photograph. But it's not hard, not expensive - should not be an obstacle. Just a little pep talk! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 07:51:47 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:51:47 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd very much like to attend, and it will depend a bit on timing and finance, since I'm trying to attend two different summer institutes. I have already taken the time to find relatively cheap ways to get there, though, so I'm feeling optimistic! - Bryan Gordon PS: The two institutes in question are the LSA Institute, which meets from 1-27 July; and the Indiana Language Workshop, which meets 15 June - 10 August. Obviously the two are mutually exclusive, but perhaps I can squeeze SCLC around one or both of them. I'd love to see the land where the mosquitoes are even bigger than in Minnesota! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Thu Feb 8 14:15:30 2007 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:15:30 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: Mary, If we can get foreign travel approval from our grantor (which shouldn't be a big deal if we plan it far enough ahead), then there will probably be two of us coming up from Kaw City, OK. But of course, it will depend greatly on the conference dates and the amount of time I have to work with the powers that be -- or at least the powers that control the purse strings. W?blahaN, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Marino To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Feb 8 15:42:37 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:42:37 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Feb 8 18:20:54 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:20:54 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bob: In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided an interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how they are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. Group A departed from "here". Group B departed from "there". I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to determine that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. My question today is: Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all Siouan languages without exception, OR Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 8 18:53:38 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:53:38 -0800 Subject: Conference Message-ID: I too would like to finally attend the Siouan Conference, but this depends on cost and financial aid. Dave Kaufman --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Thu Feb 8 18:57:54 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:57:54 -0700 Subject: References to frozen hide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bob thanks, the method is still done. The old ways of addressing it > may be gone forever for most groups. Still it pays to know what to > look for when it does surface. I did get a good bit of feedback from Louis Garcia of North Dakota , Siouan List Member Jurgita Saltanaviciute of Ok., Benson Lanford of Or., and Louis Jones of Tenn.. I have yet to dig into my Mandan files or speakers, Hidatsa files and speakers, and Crow buddies. I thought the Dakota would be easy enough to find. I asked the Siouan group after digging in Rigg's Dakota Dictionary for two-days! My effort here is to try to remix effort with the ways the process is referred. My way of mixing words and material or process. I am cross referencing several languages to avoid going down a path that never existed. We all know how misleading words can be! Here are a few of the replies so far: Billy, I don't know if this would help, but my Lakota advisors on Rosebud gave the word Hayuhtatapi sniyapi (spelling: the second "h" with a dot above it, in sniyapi - the first "i" - nasal). They say it was done in the north country. Jurga Jurgita Saltanaviciute, M.A., Department of Anthropology, University of Oklahoma, 455 W. Lindsey St., Rm 521, Norman, OK 73019, http://www.sitekreator.com/jurga Tahaca?a. Ta = ruminant (tatanka, Tatokana, ta?ca, etc); Ha = skin, hide, bark; Ca?a = freeze, frozen). Another term used Tahasaka, but saka just means hard, stiff, etc. = a hard dried hide. Hope this helps. Have a great day, LouieGarcia_,_._,___ Pursuant to Billy's initial comment (and Andrzej Gussman's response) below, let me share something that Milford Chandler told me years ago, ref. Indian hide tanning.? Essentially I remember his comments that Indians tanned in various ways to obtain different results that were appropriate to projects in mind.? They did indeed sometimes freeze hides as part of the tanning process.? He did say that freezing the hides expanded?the fibers?and that the resulting skins were very flexible and soft.? The trick was to hang the thoroughly wet hides in the outdoors in freezing weather, and let them blow-dry in the wind.? If the hides thawed while still wet, you were back to square one.?Mr. Chandler said that hides prepared in this way were not particularly suitable for moccasins-- that they wore out too quickly. For what it's worth-- and with regards,? ?Benson Lanford Benson, Everything you said makes sense. The hides I have done this way are ideal for clothing, but not the best for mocs. There is a separate term for moccasin grade skin in Dakota, "wa-ki'-hda-ka" n. dressed skin, leather, such as is used to make and mend moccasins with (Riggs). From what I gather from Wilson, just sanding soft pronhorn neck skin is very good to mocs on the trail. Nothing elaborate. I was talking to Rick Todd of Fort Benton years ago about the different ways of working hides to get the results you need for what you are making. I think everyone will agree that "wa-ke'-ya" n. a skin tent, a Dakota lodge. See wokeya. is the best for sewing beads and quills on and for making mocs and making grubby clothing. It is not ideal for fine clothing. I don't think it is an ideal for clothing at all, but when you scrap a lodge you may as well make use of it [wo'keya. n. a shelter, a cover, a booth. ke'ya, n. the large tortoise; a roof, adj. sloping, like a roof: keya ha?, it stands roof like]. That should give you some alternatives to tipi Linda! Perhaps wet scrape and dry also play, or not, a role in this. Tent skins are usually dry scraped while clothing deer, antelope, and big horn are almost always worked wet. I know that is too simple to hold true for every hide worker out there. But, it is a thought. Feel free to attack now. Benson Salish and Pikuni women often do (scrape and brain) a bunch of hides and just put them on the bushes or clothes line to dry. They will work them soft from the dry later when they have the time. There is reference in the back of Blue Mountain Buckskin to this from a Yakama woman who tells the author that she never worked a hide the way the author did. I will have to go back to look, but I think she was implying dry scraping on the frame. I have seen images of Plateau women also dressing (softening) a hide with a staking tool while the hide is in the frame. These hides I assume are the very best for clothing since they are even and fully worked. I put my best "frozen" brained hide in the frame in sub-zero weather while wet and softened it dry in that same frame many months later. Not all Indian ladies do their hide work the same, or maybe they do. It is just someone sees them working hides only for clothing. Billy ? Billy and Benson, I found your comments about freeze-tanning and tanning to purpose to be spot -on. I have been using the freezing process for years as an integral tool in doing soft and stretchy hides with lots of thickness and "loft" when doing wet-scrape hides that I needed to be that way; soaking a hide full of water then freezing it seems to aid in the breaking process at any point the hide needs breaking. Working a framed hide seems to result in a hide that is flatter with firmer and more tightly packed fibers that are better for moccasin uppers that need to be beaded. I also have discovered that taking thick rawhide intended for moc soles and saturating them with water and freezing them, and keeping them frozen while the ice evaporates out of them makes a particularly nice ,light,white, and flexible rawhide sole which is very easy to sew the upper to. Also, I suspect that the size and weight of the hide was the major determinant in making the dry-scrape, wet-scrape decision. Two cents, Louis Jones > Bill, > Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files > from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a > whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of > the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. > I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. > Bob Rankin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 8143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 04:42:51 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:42:51 -0800 Subject: Conference In-Reply-To: <173712.28483.qm@web53807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I found out today that KU has already dished out its money for travel grants. This means I'll likely NOT be going to the Siouan Conference again this year. Dave David Kaufman wrote: I too would like to finally attend the Siouan Conference, but this depends on cost and financial aid. Dave Kaufman --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdshea at ku.edu Fri Feb 9 11:31:46 2007 From: kdshea at ku.edu (Shea, Kathleen Dorette) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 05:31:46 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC Message-ID: I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last year's. I have a current passport. Kathy Shea ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC Hello all, I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. Mary At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post something soon on the Siouan list. Randy From rankin at ku.edu Fri Feb 9 17:13:17 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:13:17 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: I would think that any theory about Siouan motion verbs should be checked and tested against data from each subgroup/language. I think there's a good possibility that Linda's system would work pretty well in most if not all Mississippi Valley Siouan languages. As I recall, Giulia Oliverio found some differences in Ohio Valley Siouan, and I can't say much at all about the northern languages. You might also want to consult Allan Taylor's comparative article on Siouan motion verbs in IJAL back in the '70's. I'd say, by all means check it out in IOM. I'm sure Linda would be happy to provide particulars if you have questions about her system. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sent: Thu 2/8/2007 12:20 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bob: In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided an interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how they are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. Group A departed from "here". Group B departed from "there". I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to determine that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. My question today is: Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all Siouan languages without exception, OR Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Bill, Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your help. I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please let me know. There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me if you know of them. Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell From linguista at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 23:33:09 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:33:09 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan 2007/2/8, goodtracks at peoplepc.com : > > Bob: > In another matter, at last years conference in Billings, LindaC provided > an > interesting and clear presentation on Siouan Motion Verbs based on how > they > are applied in Assiniboin. You'll recall that she grouped the eight verbs > > into to two groups. Each were based on where the action was initiated. > Group A departed from "here". > Group B departed from "there". > > I still hope to do a test application of her scheme to the characters and > persons in the IOM traditional stories movements and narratives to > determine > that her scheme funtioned the same for IOM. > > My question today is: > Is it a "given" that her application indeed funtions the same across all > Siouan languages without exception, OR > Are there variations in applications noted for Dhegiha, Dakotan, Mandan & > Missouri River, and even Winnebago languages? > Jimm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" < rankin at ku.edu> > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:42 AM > Subject: RE: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > > > Bill, > > Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one. Nothing in my files from > Kansa or Quapaw. Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a whole lot > of > specialized vocabulary -- and we should. I fear a lot of the detailed > terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. I'll be > interested to see if anyone else has something for this. > > Bob Rankin > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell > Sent: Mon 2/5/2007 9:16 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > > > > I usually enjoy all your comments and observations, but I need your > help. > I could be losing it, but I could have sworn I read a Siouan term for a > worked hide that was put out in the cold after braining. > I cannot remember where I located that, but I cannot find the source > anywhere. If anyone knows of a reference to this please > let me know. > > There are those that say this was not done, yet I have done it on > advise from the "granny squad" who did do it for their best hides. > Matters not which language, just sling the terms and references at me > if you know of them. > Thanks in advance. Billy Maxwell > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Feb 10 01:55:44 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:55:44 -0600 Subject: Verbs of Motion (was: Any reference terms for frozen hide?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? > By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. Bryan, Could I get you to put that OP version into OP so I can follow your explanation a little better? Thanks! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Feb 10 09:31:15 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.W._T=FCting?=) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:31:15 +0100 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lakota: hi (arrive here) - u (come, be on the way to arrive here) -> hi(y)u* (start there in order to arrive here) i (arrive there) - yA (go, be on the way to arrive there) -> iyaye** (start here, go in order to arrive there) *the [y] is epenthetic ** the yA is reduplicated I once found that interesting use of the verb 'hiyu' in that CULP model sentence: Hanhepi kin tunkasila TV ogna hiyu (about: tonight the President is speaking in television, literally: start there, i.e. in the White House, in order to arrive here, i.e. in my home). Alfred Am 10.02.2007 um 00:33 schrieb Bryan Gordon: > Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment > verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a > definite termination point). This is very different from English > arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they > entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). > Is it the same for other Siouan languages? From bmaxwell at mt.net Sat Feb 10 16:04:07 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: <763c0086053db0da0d92efbc872310d0@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Thank you all for your assistance. Billy From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Feb 11 03:19:24 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:19:24 -0600 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Message-ID: Bill: I thought the replies from different ones were interesting and appreciated the sharing of the information, although they did not turn up a frozen hide term. I looked in my own JODorsey files for possible IOM terms. There are a number of terms that concern tanning, treating a hide, but nothing that suggests a special frozen processing. However, as you know, by using an instrumental prefix, one process may be changed to another. For IOM the prefix da- concerns an action done by heat or freezing. A Hidatsa elder shared with me 40 years ago, that when he was a child, that in the winter, buffalo would sometimes misjudge the frozen ice on the river to cross. At times, they fell through the ice and drowned. In the spring of the year when the ice began to melt, the people would pull out the buffalo carcass even when in stages of putrid decay, if I recall correctly. I was told that the steaks cut from such frozen animals were exceedingly tender and delicious. I am thinking that the story bears credence towards your information on tanning frozen hides, that were exceptionally soft and of superiour quality. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Maxwell" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Any reference terms for frozen hide? > Thank you all for your assistance. Billy > > From bmaxwell at mt.net Sun Feb 11 08:04:18 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:04:18 -0700 Subject: Any reference terms for frozen hide? In-Reply-To: <002601c74d8b$e5470c20$43bceb3f@JIMM> Message-ID: Jim, Thank you for that heads up! Nothing was in Riggs either, but as you said a switch in a prefix... Your story is making me hungry for green eggs and ham. Must go rush neighbor's Angus on to the ice of the Missouri just out the door. Billy Here is a more detail example of how to process works: I (Billy Metcalf) softened two deer hides today that I brained and freeze dried while we were having a cold spell. When I thawed them they were completely dry, then they laid around my shop for a couple of weeks. They were white and pretty flexible. Yesterday I misted them real good with a spray bottle then put them in a plastic bag over night. Today I pulled them over a cable for about a half hour each then put them in frames and worked them some more to make them lay flat and get a little bigger. All together I spent about an hour and a half softening them and they were done. Soft. billymetcalf at telus.net On Feb 10, 2007, at 8:19 PM, wrote: > Bill: > I thought the replies from different ones were interesting and > appreciated the sharing of the information, although they did not turn > up a frozen hide term. I looked in my own JODorsey files for possible > IOM terms. There are a number of terms that concern tanning, treating > a hide, but nothing that suggests a special frozen processing. > However, as you know, by using an instrumental prefix, one process may > be changed to another. For IOM the prefix da- concerns an action > done by heat or freezing. > A Hidatsa elder shared with me 40 years ago, that when he was a child, > that in the winter, buffalo would sometimes misjudge the frozen ice on > the river to cross. At times, they fell through the ice and drowned. > In the spring of the year when the ice began to melt, the people would > pull out the buffalo carcass even when in stages of putrid decay, if I > recall correctly. I was told that the steaks cut from such frozen > animals were exceedingly tender and delicious. I am thinking that the > story bears credence towards your information on tanning frozen hides, > that were exceptionally soft and of superiour quality. > Jimm From ardisrachel at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 00:25:40 2007 From: ardisrachel at gmail.com (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:25:40 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <58FA94662375C540AAE4EF15D8B3AEDD015AFC10@MAILBOXFOUR.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd very much like to come but am not sure due to pregnancy. The later it is, the more pregnant I'll be. (And there were some complications. Now, everything is good again, but 3 weeks of bed rest leaves me less self-assured of how easy everything will go.) I've got a passport. Do young children need one as well? On 2/9/07, Shea, Kathleen Dorette wrote: > > I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last > year's. I have a current passport. > > Kathy Shea > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Marino > Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would > really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to attend. I > would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite answer now. > > Mary > > At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: > > > You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know if > the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to post > something soon on the Siouan list. > > Randy > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Wed Feb 14 00:28:14 2007 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:28:14 -0700 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6e9927690702131625x7658d662v2ed306ea4aff7e57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I hope I will be able to attend the conference this year (I've missed too many of them), but it all depends on the date. I need to be back home by May 26 or 27. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From marino at skyway.usask.ca Wed Feb 14 19:00:15 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:00:15 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: <6e9927690702131625x7658d662v2ed306ea4aff7e57@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: Hello Ardis, The dates we are looking at are: either 24-25 May or 30-31 May. The Canadian Linguistics Association is meeting here (Saskatoon) from 26 - 29 May,as part of the Congress of Humanities and Social Sciences. I favour the earlier dates (24-25) for the SCLC, so that we could continue into the CLA meetings, if necessary, because some would like to attend the latter as well as the SCLC. There are some undecided matters: 1) Are we going to have a comparative grammar workshop, or discussions about the contents of the volumes we were planning last year? 2) We don't yet know the CLA Program (soon to be available, I gather) - so we don't know which sessions of the latter would be most appealing to our people. It would be great if you could come. Both Canada and the US require children of any age to either have their own passports or to be included on their parents' passports. You need to check the details with your local passport office. Best, Mary PS: I really like your dissertation and look forward to meeting you if it works out. At 06:25 PM 2/13/2007, you wrote: >I'd very much like to come but am not sure due to pregnancy. The later it >is, the more pregnant I'll be. (And there were some complications. Now, >everything is good again, but 3 weeks of bed rest leaves me less >self-assured of how easy everything will go.) >I've got a passport. Do young children need one as well? > > > >On 2/9/07, Shea, Kathleen Dorette <kdshea at ku.edu> >wrote: >I would like to attend this year's SCLC, especially since I missed last >year's. I have a current passport. > >Kathy Shea > >________________________________ > >From: >owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on >behalf of Marino >Sent: Tue 2/6/2007 11:46 AM >To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >Subject: Re: 2007 SCLC > > > > > > > >Hello all, > >I am working on this and will soon have a more detailed message. It would >really help if I could get some idea of how many will be able to >attend. I would be glad to hear from anybody who can give me a definite >answer now. > >Mary > >At 08:56 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: > > > You're right, its Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. I don't know > if the dates are actually finalized yet. I am expecting Mary Marino to > post something soon on the Siouan list. > > Randy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marino at skyway.usask.ca Wed Feb 14 19:03:20 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:03:20 -0600 Subject: 2007 SCLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello David, See my previous message to Ardis. If we go with 24-25 May, you could possibly get home on (but not 'by') the 26th. I really hope this could work out for you. Best, Mary At 06:28 PM 2/13/2007, you wrote: >I hope I will be able to attend the conference this year (I've missed too >many of them), but it all depends on the date. I need to be back home by >May 26 or 27. > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 14 20:55:35 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (goodtracks at peoplepc.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Subject: MOTION VERBS Message-ID: Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group A departed from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back [to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11. gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = a?i re. Depart back with s.t.; bring= a?i gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = a?i hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Thu Feb 15 09:21:02 2007 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:21:02 +0100 Subject: Deictic motion verbs In-Reply-To: <005d01c7507a$9595e790$710a133f@JIMM> Message-ID: Dear Jimm, thank you very much for sending around this list with deictic motion verbs in IOM. Most of the forms and meanings are quite familiar to me, because they have obvious correspondences in Hocank. Taking Linda's systematic description of the forms as a point of departure, it is easy to compare the deictic motion verbs formally and semantically. The respective forms in Hocank are given in the table below, which I adapted from Linda's dissertation (I hope you receive this table uncorrupted). The forms behind the slashes are your IOM forms; (abbrev. DC = deictic center, usually the speaker) phase of motion begin be on the way arrive -motion toward DC [GO] -motion towards base r?e/re raah? hii/hi +motion towards base ker?/gre karah? gii/gi +motion toward DC [COME] -motion towards base h?u/hu huuh?/huhe j?i/ji +motion towards base g?u/gu guuh?/guhe kir?/gri Now, all forms in IOM have exact correspondences in Hocank except two of them, the first one hire (go off; depart) and 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone)). There is a verb in Hocank hiir? 'to go by', 'to go through', 'to go to', which seems to be the cognate of the first form in your list. I suspect it does not belong to the list of deictic motion verbs. At least in Hocank, we do not count is as a deictic motion verb (but who knows). The second IOM form gigre has no direct cognate in Hocank (we have no similar form in the dictionary), but it looks to me like a composition of gi-gre and gre corresponds in Hocank to kere (see the table!). I suspect the IOM gi- is related to ki-(REFL)/ or gi- (BEN) in Hocank, but I have no oppinion about this. Right now, Iren Hartmann (my research assistant) and myself are compiling a list of combinations of deictic motion verbs with each other and with other verbs in order to find out somthing about the asymmetries in the usage (and semantics, markedness, grammaticalization) of these forms in Hocank. On the other hand the two forms I marked in blue in the table above are missing in IOM? These are the 'being on the way' or 'progressive/ continuative' forms - certainly the marked forms (it is obvious, that these forms are composed historically). Interesting, isn't it? All the best, Johannes ---------- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht / Original message ---------- Datum: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Antwort an: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Von: An: Betreff: Re: MOTION VERBS Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group Adeparted from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back[to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11.gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = a?i re. Depart back with s.t.; bring=a?i gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = a?i hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Regensburg Institut f?r Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universit?tsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marino at skyway.usask.ca Fri Feb 16 05:58:09 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:58:09 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I now know the intentions of about 16 people (including myself) with regard to attending the 2007 Siouan/Caddoan Conference. Eight people plan to attend, 4 definitely are not coming, and 4 are undecided. A couple of the 'maybes' say that it depends upon the dates. Two possible dates are under consideration: 24-25 May and 30-31 May, with 26-29 May being the dates of the Canadian Linguistics Association Meeting, which is also taking place in Saskatoon. Two people definitely favour the 24th and 25th. Those dates seem preferable to me, because people could then stay on and attend the CLA if they so wish, and we could also find time while the CLA conference is going on to hold a Workshop, if we decide to do that. At this point, two days seems ample for the number of papers that we are likely to have. But there could be more. Anyway, I would like a vote on the dates at this time: 24-25 or 30-31? Please let me know if your attendance crucially depends upon which dates are chosen. Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? I hope soon to have a preliminary CLA program to send out (I am doing local arrangements - the Program Chair is somebody else). Best, Mary From rood at spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Feb 16 15:22:46 2007 From: rood at spot.Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:22:46 -0700 Subject: SCLC 2007 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20070215234354.022c3e00@sask.usask.ca> Message-ID: I definitely prefer 24-25, but it's not absolutely certain that I can come. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Marino wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I now know the intentions of about 16 people (including myself) with regard > to attending the 2007 Siouan/Caddoan Conference. Eight people plan to > attend, 4 definitely are not coming, and 4 are undecided. A couple of the > 'maybes' say that it depends upon the dates. Two possible dates are under > consideration: 24-25 May and 30-31 May, with 26-29 May being the dates of > the Canadian Linguistics Association Meeting, which is also taking place in > Saskatoon. Two people definitely favour the 24th and 25th. Those dates > seem preferable to me, because people could then stay on and attend the CLA > if they so wish, and we could also find time while the CLA conference is > going on to hold a Workshop, if we decide to do that. At this point, two > days seems ample for the number of papers that we are likely to have. But > there could be more. Anyway, I would like a vote on the dates at this > time: 24-25 or 30-31? Please let me know if your attendance crucially > depends upon which dates are chosen. > > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some > other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar > volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if > there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? > > I hope soon to have a preliminary CLA program to send out (I am doing local > arrangements - the Program Chair is somebody else). > > Best, > Mary > From Rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Feb 16 17:36:07 2007 From: Rgraczyk at aol.com (Rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:36:07 EST Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: I vote for May 24-25. I wouldn't be able to make the later dates. Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 17 00:15:26 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:15:26 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I recognize this post is part storytelling and part science...but what's wrong with stories? :-) La Salle mentions four tribes on the north side of the Ohio River that were overthrown by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars, from east to west: Kentaientonga (with 19 villages destroyed), Oniassontke (two villages), Casa (one village), Mosopelea (eight villages). [Page 589, Northeastern volume of the Handbook of North American Indians] HNAI suggests that the Kentaientonga were the Gentaguetehronnon/Gentagega tribe of the Eire Confederation. 1) If the the Gentagega Erie tribe occupied watersheds draining into the south shore of Lake Erie, along the Portage Escarpment, and... 2) If the Honniosonts occupied the watershed of the Allegheny River, with the western boundary of their homeland being the confluence of the Three Rivers at Pittsburgh [a map of the Allegheny watershed is available here: http://concernedcitizens.homestead.com/maplink_Alleghenyriver.html], and... 3) If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio, from the Miami watersheds in the west through the Muskingum watersheds in the east [Swanton p.61; a map is available here: http://opal.osu.edu/watersheds.htm; approximately watersheds 23-42], then... ...based on the order of the quote (Erie-Honniosont-Casa-Mosopelea), the Casa would, schematically at least, occupy the watersheds south of Ohio River/Lake Erie divide (the southern border of Erie Country), west of the Allegheny watershed (Honniosont Country) and east of the Muskingum watershed (the eastern border of Mosopelea Country) - namely, the watersheds along the western banks of the Ohio River in northeastern Ohio [approximately watersheds 19-22 on the map]. It would be neat if an old reference to a "Casa River" in northeastern Ohio turned up somewhere... ------ As far as the linguistic affliation of the Casa language, there is this: According to Osage tradition, the Siouan host traveled from the Siouan homeland in the VA-NC-SC Piedmont, up the New River/Kanawha River (VA-WV), to the Ohio River, and then north along the river to the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers (Pittsburgh, PA) where they lingered for awhile. Later the host (or part of the host) travelled down to the mouth of the Ohio River and from there spread throughout the Mississippi Valley. What if they left a trail of Siouan "straggler tribes" along the way? Based on the Osage tradition of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers being the northeasternmost point of Siouan settlement, and given that Casa Country would lie just west of this point...the Casa could conceivably be a Siouan tribe. Some other surrounding tribes would be the Siouan Monetons in the Kanawha-New River watershed (who could be stragglers from the initial Siouan migration through that that valley), and the Siouan Tutelos in their prehistoric homeland in the Big Sandy River watershed (formerly known as the Tatteroa River) along the border of WV-KY. The Quapaws would be further down the river, beyond the Mosopeleas. The Monetons (Big Water People) and Mosopeleas perhaps later moved downriver to become the Michigameas (Big Water People) and Ouesperies (later Ofos) [see Koontz and Swanton, and the sections on the Ouispe in Vol. 14 of HNAI]. However, if the Mosopeleas were not a Siouan tribe, but were the Turkey clan of the Shawnee as suggested by McCafferty, then the Casas might be Algonquian too. Or...they could be Iroquoian like the Eries and Honniosonts (Black Minquas). Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Lastly, does anyone know of any other reference whatsoever to the Casa people besides La Salle's? Travis Henry P.S. Who are the Cappas mentioned by Coxe as living with the Ousperies on the "Cappa River", located about 30 miles north of the Arkansas River? [p64 Swanton] They aren't listed in the index to the Northeast or Southeast volumes of HNAI. Is the Cappa tribe certainly indigenous to that stretch of the Mississippi, or could they be Ohio refugees too? Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers? [A map showing those rivers is available here: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/arkansas_90.jpg] If so, despite the suggestion that the river name "Cache" is from the Picardie French word for "hunt" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_River_%28Arkansas%29], is it possible that the name "Cache" was borrowed from /kasa/ or /ka?a/? Is it possible that /kapa/ represents a Taensa pronunciation of /kafa/, which descended from /kasa/, in the same way that "Opogoula" is a extant Taensa pronunciation of "Ofogoula", with the /ofo/ supposedly descended from /moso/ or /moNso/ of "Mosopelea" and "Mons8pelea" via an intermediate form /woso/ or /woNso/ represented by "Oussipe" and "Onspee", as suggested by Swanton? References: Swanton's "Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley": http://www.jstor.org/view/00027294/ap020246/02a00050/0 John E. Koontz's "Michigamea, A Siouan Langauge?": http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm and "Michigamea is not Dhegiha": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=7493 Michael McCafferty's post on the Mons8peleas as a Shawnee clan: http://listserv.emich.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=siouan&D=1&O=D&P=760&F=P ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Feb 17 00:39:53 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:39:53 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: <219275.55550.qm@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sat Feb 17 18:33:54 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:33:54 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Rory is right that "Casa" could be Kansa. There is no end of speculation on the part of ethnohistorians, archaeologists and linguists as to the ethnic identity of the multiplicity of town and tribal names found on early maps and in early explorer accounts. Ordinarily each scholar has sought to maximize the presence of "his" tribal or linguistic interests in such studies, but very little ends up being established for certain. That said, there is general agreement that "Cappa" and variant spellings represent /okaxpa/, the Quapaw name for themselves. I think this is generally unquestioned now. Beware of the term "Pacaha", however, which is sometimes claimed to be a transcriber error for the same group. This latter term is almost certainly a Tunican name for a different group. I expect that any Osage story about Pittsburgh representing a limit of Siouan settlement is one of those accounts that requires a lot of "interpretation". John Koontz will tell you that it's hard enough to establish that Dhegiha references to "Ohio" are really references to that river. In Omaha is seems possible to interpret the sequence differently, so the identity of the ref. is hard to be certain of. This gets us to the name "Kansa" (possibly your "Casa"). Perhaps the generalized usage of the name Kansa by groups within the Omahas, Quapaws, Osages and by the Kaws means that the term originally referred either to all five sister-tribes when they were living as a single group, or, alternatively, and I think more likely, to one of the clans or prominent social subgroups of this single, common tribe. We cannot know for certain. We do know that the Algonquian-speaking Indians of the Illinois Country, the Miami, Peoria, Kaskaskia tribes and others, called all of these five Dhegiha-speaking groups Kansa. In other words, the Omaha, Ponca, Kaw, Osage and Quapaw were all Kansa to their Algonquian-speaking neighbors and trading partners, and these Illinois tribes passed this name on to the earliest French explorers with its Algonquian language prefix, A-. These same Algonquian tribes of the Illinois Confederacy along with the Shawnees, named one of the prominent southern tributaries of the Ohio River Akansasipi or "River of the Kansa", after the people they said had formerly lived there. This was noted in 1699 by the French missionary-explorer, Father Gravier, (1699-1700) and appears on several maps, Nouvelle CARTE dela Louisiane et Du fleuve Mississip(p)i, produced by the French in 1701, 1702 and 1703 (Michael McCafferty, personal communication). Michael and I have discussed the name "Mosopelea" at length, and this correspondence can be found in the archives of the Siouan list, so I won't repeat all the discussion here. Swanton showed that the name, as it underwent alterations as the tribe moved down the Ohio and Mississippi, evolved into something the Tunicas interpreted as "Ushpe" (or something very similar). In a paper I did for the American Anthropological Assn. meeting back about 1980 I pointed out that the first two syllables, [moso] would, by regular phonetic change, have evolved into [ofo] in that language. These two progressions taken together have convinced me that the Mosopelea were indeed the Ofo. The idea that VA, WVA and the Carolinas were the "Siouan homeland" is still speculative. No doubt it was somewhere well east of the Mississippi, but we can't really pin it down just because the remnant of the Catawbas were in Carolina and some Siouan groups were in VA/WVA. That's my 2 cents worth. There's more in the list archives if you want to look it up. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Fri 2/16/2007 6:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language I recognize this post is part storytelling and part science...but what's wrong with stories? :-) La Salle mentions four tribes on the north side of the Ohio River that were overthrown by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars, from east to west: Kentaientonga (with 19 villages destroyed), Oniassontke (two villages), Casa (one village), Mosopelea (eight villages). [Page 589, Northeastern volume of the Handbook of North American Indians] HNAI suggests that the Kentaientonga were the Gentaguetehronnon/Gentagega tribe of the Eire Confederation. 1) If the the Gentagega Erie tribe occupied watersheds draining into the south shore of Lake Erie, along the Portage Escarpment, and... 2) If the Honniosonts occupied the watershed of the Allegheny River, with the western boundary of their homeland being the confluence of the Three Rivers at Pittsburgh [a map of the Allegheny watershed is available here: http://concernedcitizens.homestead.com/maplink_Alleghenyriver.html], and... 3) If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio, from the Miami watersheds in the west through the Muskingum watersheds in the east [Swanton p.61; a map is available here: http://opal.osu.edu/watersheds.htm; approximately watersheds 23-42], then... ...based on the order of the quote (Erie-Honniosont-Casa-Mosopelea), the Casa would, schematically at least, occupy the watersheds south of Ohio River/Lake Erie divide (the southern border of Erie Country), west of the Allegheny watershed (Honniosont Country) and east of the Muskingum watershed (the eastern border of Mosopelea Country) - namely, the watersheds along the western banks of the Ohio River in northeastern Ohio [approximately watersheds 19-22 on the map]. It would be neat if an old reference to a "Casa River" in northeastern Ohio turned up somewhere... ------ As far as the linguistic affliation of the Casa language, there is this: According to Osage tradition, the Siouan host traveled from the Siouan homeland in the VA-NC-SC Piedmont, up the New River/Kanawha River (VA-WV), to the Ohio River, and then north along the river to the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers (Pittsburgh, PA) where they lingered for awhile. Later the host (or part of the host) travelled down to the mouth of the Ohio River and from there spread throughout the Mississippi Valley. What if they left a trail of Siouan "straggler tribes" along the way? Based on the Osage tradition of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers being the northeasternmost point of Siouan settlement, and given that Casa Country would lie just west of this point...the Casa could conceivably be a Siouan tribe. Some other surrounding tribes would be the Siouan Monetons in the Kanawha-New River watershed (who could be stragglers from the initial Siouan migration through that that valley), and the Siouan Tutelos in their prehistoric homeland in the Big Sandy River watershed (formerly known as the Tatteroa River) along the border of WV-KY. The Quapaws would be further down the river, beyond the Mosopeleas. The Monetons (Big Water People) and Mosopeleas perhaps later moved downriver to become the Michigameas (Big Water People) and Ouesperies (later Ofos) [see Koontz and Swanton, and the sections on the Ouispe in Vol. 14 of HNAI]. However, if the Mosopeleas were not a Siouan tribe, but were the Turkey clan of the Shawnee as suggested by McCafferty, then the Casas might be Algonquian too. Or...they could be Iroquoian like the Eries and Honniosonts (Black Minquas). Just for fun, does anyone know a Siouan (especially Tutelo or Ofo) or Algonquian (especially Shawnee or Miami-Illinois) word that would be similar to /kasa/? Lastly, does anyone know of any other reference whatsoever to the Casa people besides La Salle's? Travis Henry P.S. Who are the Cappas mentioned by Coxe as living with the Ousperies on the "Cappa River", located about 30 miles north of the Arkansas River? [p64 Swanton] They aren't listed in the index to the Northeast or Southeast volumes of HNAI. Is the Cappa tribe certainly indigenous to that stretch of the Mississippi, or could they be Ohio refugees too? Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers? [A map showing those rivers is available here: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/arkansas_90.jpg] If so, despite the suggestion that the river name "Cache" is from the Picardie French word for "hunt" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_River_%28Arkansas%29], is it possible that the name "Cache" was borrowed from /kasa/ or /kasa/? Is it possible that /kapa/ represents a Taensa pronunciation of /kafa/, which descended from /kasa/, in the same way that "Opogoula" is a extant Taensa pronunciation of "Ofogoula", with the /ofo/ supposedly descended from /moso/ or /moNso/ of "Mosopelea" and "Mons8pelea" via an intermediate form /woso/ or /woNso/ represented by "Oussipe" and "Onspee", as suggested by Swanton? References: Swanton's "Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley": http://www.jstor.org/view/00027294/ap020246/02a00050/0 John E. Koontz's "Michigamea, A Siouan Langauge?": http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/michigamea.htm and "Michigamea is not Dhegiha": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=siouan&P=7493 Michael McCafferty's post on the Mons8peleas as a Shawnee clan: http://listserv.emich.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0405&L=siouan&D=1&O=D&P=760&F=P ________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 17 22:35:08 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:35:08 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Thanks Rory and Bob for the help with the Casas and Cappas. Reading the Quapaw chapter in the HNAI makes the Quapaw identity of Cappa village clear. The Geographic Names Information System (citing James Montgomery's 'The Nomenclature of the Upper Tennessee River') states that the "Acanseasipi River" river refers to the Tennessee River: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=121:3:530840878239254790::NO::P3_FID:517033 Is this the most likely identification of the "River of the Kansa"? Travis P.S. A couple errors in my original post: >>If the Mosopelea occupied the watersheds on the north bank of the Ohio River in southeastern Ohio<< That should be southwestern instead of "southeastern". >>Is the Cappa River the modern-day Whitefish and Cache Rivers?<< That should be White instead of "Whitefish". What can I say?...I've been thinking about the Atikamekws a lot recently. :-) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 18 15:33:55 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:33:55 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: > The Geographic Names Information System (citing James Montgomery's 'The Nomenclature of the Upper Tennessee River') states that the "Acanseasipi River" river refers to the Tennessee River: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=121:3:530840878239254790::NO::P3_FID:517033 > Is this the most likely identification of the "River of the Kansa"? I don't know. The French maps are not accurate enough for us to be anywhere near certain just on that basis alone. Montgomery may have had additional sources, but often this sort of identification involves "interpretation". I'm not a geographer though. Bob From shenry74 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 19 03:50:09 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:50:09 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Rory wrote: >>Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least.<< Is anyone familiar enough with both the Dhegihan and Southeastern Siouan branches to suggest what a Mosopelea/Ofo cognate of KzaN'za might look like? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 19 04:09:08 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:09:08 -0800 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I mean KkaN'za, not "KzaN'za" of course. Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 04:14:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:14:10 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Sun 2/18/2007 9:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Rory wrote: >>Well, for Siouan, the clan or ethnic name KkaN'za certainly comes to mind. There seem to be a lot of people with that name scattered around in the Dhegihan realms at least.<< Is anyone familiar enough with both the Dhegihan and Southeastern Siouan branches to suggest what a Mosopelea/Ofo cognate of KzaN'za might look like? Travis ________________________________ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 04:17:46 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:17:46 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: And I should have written */khoNfe/ or */khoNfi/ for the Ofo form. KkaNze has a final -e, not -a. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Shane Henry Sent: Sun 2/18/2007 10:09 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language I mean KkaN'za, not "KzaN'za" of course. Travis ________________________________ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 19 16:11:36 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:11:36 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob, is there a timeframe issue on this? My understanding was that Siouan /s/ => Ofo /f/ fairly recently. If Travis is looking at "Casa" in early French records from around 1700 or so, would this have been before or after the sound shift? If /moso/ => /ofo/, I would think it would be before. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Feb 19 17:10:16 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:10:16 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: That's a bit hard to say. Some have tried to derive Ofo words like angofa or anglif from French, and, while /ang/ is the first part of various Fr. words referring to the English, it is also the pan-Siouan root for 'man, person'. The sibilant at the end of French 'anglais' was and is not normally pronounced except in the feminine. All in all, I've never been very sure we have a good handle on the chronology of this change. Nor is the phonetic trajectory very clear, although I've speculated that it may have been *s > theta > f. I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 10:11 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language > Probably something like Ofo */khoNfa/ with oN representing the o with the raised n after it. Accent would be on the oN. It could possibly have an initial a- or i-, but probably not. I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Bob, is there a timeframe issue on this? My understanding was that Siouan /s/ => Ofo /f/ fairly recently. If Travis is looking at "Casa" in early French records from around 1700 or so, would this have been before or after the sound shift? If /moso/ => /ofo/, I would think it would be before. Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 19 18:04:09 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:04:09 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. I see. Then how far back do European transcriptions of Ofo words containing [f] date? And for the transjectory, do we know anything about the phonotactics of that [f]? Labio-dental? Bilabial? Or that thing in Swedish they sometimes write sj-, where the back of the lower lip kind of covers the front of the upper teeth? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Tue Feb 20 09:29:31 2007 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:29:31 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Deictic motion verbs Message-ID: Dear Jimm, thank you very much for sending around this list with deictic motion verbs in IOM. Most of the forms and meanings are quite familiar to me, because they have obvious correspondences in Hocank. Taking Linda's systematic description of the forms as a point of departure, it is easy to compare the deictic motion verbs formally and semantically. The respective forms in Hocank are given in the table below, which I adapted from Linda's dissertation (I hope you receive this table uncorrupted). The forms behind the slashes are your IOM forms; (abbrev. DC = deictic center, usually the speaker) phase of motion begin be on the way arrive -motion toward DC [GO] -motion towards base r?e/re raah? hii/hi +motion towards base ker?/gre karah? gii/gi +motion toward DC [COME] -motion towards base h?u/hu huuh?/huhe j?i/ji +motion towards base g?u/gu guuh?/guhe kir?/gri Now, all forms in IOM have exact correspondences in Hocank except two of them, the first one hire (go off; depart) and 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone)). There is a verb in Hocank hiir? 'to go by', 'to go through', 'to go to', which seems to be the cognate of the first form in your list. I suspect it does not belong to the list of deictic motion verbs. At least in Hocank, we do not count is as a deictic motion verb (but who knows). The second IOM form gigre has no direct cognate in Hocank (we have no similar form in the dictionary), but it looks to me like a composition of gi-gre and gre corresponds in Hocank to kere (see the table!). I suspect the IOM gi- is related to ki-(REFL)/ or gi- (BEN) in Hocank, but I have no oppinion about this. Right now, Iren Hartmann (my research assistant) and myself are compiling a list of combinations of deictic motion verbs with each other and with other verbs in order to find out somthing about the asymmetries in the usage (and semantics, markedness, grammaticalization) of these forms in Hocank. On the other hand the two forms I marked in blue in the table above are missing in IOM? These are the 'being on the way' or 'progressive/ continuative' forms - certainly the marked forms (it is obvious, that these forms are composed historically). Interesting, isn't it? All the best, Johannes ---------- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht / Original message ---------- Datum:Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:55:35 -0600 Antwort an:siouan at lists.colorado.edu Von: An: Betreff:Re: MOTION VERBS Brian: Thanks for your reply and that of Bob; and meanwhile, excuss that long time to reply. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. I happen to be sitting next to Johannes as Linda made her presentation, so I was able to add on to the lOM lists those that she left out. For Group Adeparted from "here". (Follow down on her list as she listed the terms), the corrections, additions are: 1. hire (go off; depart) 2. re (go; be going; start going). Destination not mentioned. 3. hi (arrive there [going]). 4. gu (depart back; start back[to return here]). 5. guhe (be coming back; approach coming back). 6. gri (arrive back home; arrive back at the place one initiated the action of departing). Group B departed from "there". 7. hu (start to come; be coming). 8. huhe (be coming; on way to there). 9. ji (arrive there at this place). 10. gigre (go by; going away; be gone). 11.gre (come back home; be coming back). 12. gi (arrive going back there to that place) You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? IOM is particularily rich in combined forms. I have not ever tried to list them. However, a quick glance at the dictionary, we find: Arrive going back; go on by = jigre. Come here; draw near; approach=jihu. Go to a certain place = iware. Have gone home again = gre rustan. Go having something; take = a?i re. Depart back with s.t.; bring=a?i gu. Come back home & sit down/ Return to one's seat = grinange. Arrive having something = a?i hi. And so it goes. And I am fairly sure that the other Siouan languages have similar examples to offer. Now, when time permits, to see how it all comes out in the texts....when time permits. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Gordon To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Any reference terms for frozen hide? Howdy Jimm! It's not a given that the motion verb template functions the same across all the languages, BUT I think it's a really nice working hypothesis that it does work the same or almost the same, and we can all test it in our respective languages to see how much the same it does work. If you refer to the chart we got from Linda, there were some languages that had more complete repertoires of motion verbs than others. For instance, I remember that most of the languages collapsed the verbs of departure and motion-in-progress together, and distinguished them from verbs of arrival. But there were some that had three separate categories for these. Also, I remember that the verbs of departure, for some reason, seemed to be composed of the other two categories in most cases. Omaha-Ponca seems in a more archaic form to have distinguished all three, but in its modern form only to distinguish the two. You see those "combined" forms like hidhe in older texts. Another note: OP arrival verbs seem to be aspectually accomplishment verbs (that is, they entail a bounded activity, a process with a definite termination point). This is very different from English arrival verbs, which are aspectually achievement verbs (that is, they entail just the termination point, not the process that precedes it). Is it the same for other Siouan languages? By way of explanation, in English, we would say, "After work I went home and ate," while in OP we would say "After work I arrived back there at home and ate." You only use the OP motion verb "go back there" when the motion is in progress or has just begun, and you only use the English arrival verb when you're not interested in the motion part. - Bryan -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Regensburg Institut f?r Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universit?tsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de --- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht / End of forwarded message --- -- Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Professur f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Regensburg Institut f?r Medien-, Informations-, und Kulturwissenschaft (IMIK) Universit?tsstr. 31 93053 Regensburg Deutschland Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388 ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429 E-Mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 20 19:02:45 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:02:45 -0600 Subject: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language Message-ID: I don't know that there are more than one or two words that might be "Ofo" before Swanton's field work. The F phoneme in the Muskogean languages was bilabial in the days before English or French bilingualism. Now it is labio-dental for virtually all speakers. Swanton writes is like European F and doesn't find anything about it remarkable. Interestingly, the Ofo terms for 'Frenchman' and 'American' are both hard to find sources for, but neither has an F. As for the trajectory, we know that [s] varies with [theta] in some Siouan languages and that, even in English, [theta] and [f] are acoustically very close and easy to confuse. There are dialects in which [f] and [v] are substituted for voiceless and voiced theta and also foreign pronunciations of theta in English words that do the same thing. Russian speakers often substitute "vis" and "vat" for 'this' and 'that'. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 12:04 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: The Casa tribe, homeland, and language > I'm not aware of any European transcriptions that have a sibilant in Ofo that later became [f]. I see. Then how far back do European transcriptions of Ofo words containing [f] date? And for the transjectory, do we know anything about the phonotactics of that [f]? Labio-dental? Bilabial? Or that thing in Swedish they sometimes write sj-, where the back of the lower lip kind of covers the front of the upper teeth? Rory From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 20:35:56 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:35:56 -0800 Subject: Casa Country Message-ID: Bob wrote: >>I haven't found the etymon outside of Dhegiha and suspect that it's borrowed in any other Mississippi Valley Siouan languages that have it. Given the information from previous posts: 1) According to the HNAI, the Casa tribe was likely geographically situated between the Honniosonts and the Mosopeleas, thus in northeastern Ohio/westernmost Pennsylvania. (Whereas, the "Acanseasipi River" - likely the Tennessee River - seems to be the ancient home of one or more Dhegihan tribes, rather than the Casas.) 2) And given the (admittedly scarce) evidence for the Casa being a Siouan tribe, including: a) The presence of nearby Siouan tribes such as the Mosopeleas and Monetons. b) An interpretation of the Osage tradition with Pittsburgh being the northeasternmost extent of Siouan territory. c) The superficially Siouan appearance of the word "Casa", perhaps being cognate with "Kansa". ...I wonder if there was an "Ohio Siouan" language consisting of the Mosopelea-Ousperie-Ofo and Casa tribolects, alongside the "Virginia Siouan" language, conceivably consisting of some or all of the following tribolects: Moneton, Nahyssan, Monacan, Manahoac, Tutelo, Saponi, and Occaneechi. In this case, perhaps the Casa autonym is Ohio Siouan *KhoN'?e/*KhoN'se, showing alteration between theta and ess, and with the form "Casa" being the tribe's name in the language that transmitted the name to La Salle. In that case, I imagine the name of Casa Country as A'maN KhoN'se. Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 20:59:44 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:59:44 -0800 Subject: Pronouncing ManiN'-ithaN' Message-ID: Going back to an earlier question, in regards to the pronunciation of MaNniN'-ithaN'... I wrote: >>Amai ManiN'ithaN' : Moneton Country : The reconstruction of the name is from the Southeast volume of the HNAI. How would it be spelled in regularized Tutelo/Virginia Siouan instead of phonetic notation? For all of the Virgina Siouan names, where do the stress marks go?<< Bob responded: >>This represents my work for Ives Goddard on this name. It is not so much a "reconstruction" as a simple interpretation of the spelling in phonetic characters. The name was parsed by the two gentlemen who discussed it in their travel journals. Mani is 'water' and ithan is 'big' (related to Dakota thanka, etc.) The "dephoneticized" way to write it would be "Moneton" or "Moniton". Accent should be on the second syllable of both words in the native language. In English it should be wherever you want it. Personally, I put it on the 1st syllable.<< More specifically, what I'm wondering is, does Virginia Siouan have compound words. That is, does "Moneton" represent MaNniN'ithaN' or MaNniN' IthaN'. And, if it does represent a compound, does the stress change, such as how "counterattack" has a different stress than "counter" or "attack". Also, in Virginia Siouan, if it were a compound, would there be any blending/contraction between the phonemes of the two words (e.g. between the /iN/ of /maNniN'/ and /i/ of /ithaN'/), such as MaNniNtaN or MaNnithaN? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenry74 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 23:48:53 2007 From: shenry74 at yahoo.com (Shane Henry) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:48:53 -0800 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: Yet another question... What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? Bob spoke on the first elements: /Moso-/ /Oso-/ /Ofo/ And two big questions: 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" and "Onspee"? 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? Travis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 00:42:11 2007 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:42:11 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: <222241.37074.qm@web32601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is how I summarized it back in 2004 for the OED: --- OFOGOULA n. From a Mobilian-jargon or Muskogean name, which is a reanalysis as 'dog-people' (cf. Chickasaw ofi? 'dog,' Apalachee akola 'people') of a non-Muskogean name of uncertain origin. NOTE (speculative): the source may be an Ofogoula word in ofo- that was derived from or is cognate with--by the regular loss of lexeme-initial /m/ and /w/ in Ofogoula and by the change of Common Siouan *s to Ofogoula /f/--an earlier name recorded as Mosopelea (and varr.) and perhaps applied to the ancestral Ofogoula people when they resided further north along the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' Based on emails from Robt. Rankin (2 May 2004) and Michael McCafferty (4 May 2004), and on E. Drechsel Mobilian Jargon (1997) 318, J. M. Crawford Studies SE Indian Langs. (1975) 89, and J. Swanton Indian Tribes Lower Mississippi Valley (1911) 38. --- Alan > What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras > of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? > > Bob spoke on the first elements: > > /Moso-/ > > /Oso-/ > > /Ofo/ > > And two big questions: > > 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" > and "Onspee"? > > 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the > autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe > became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? > > Travis From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Feb 25 00:58:34 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:58:34 -0800 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: <45E0DB63.7020504@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was supposed to mean. Didn't Bob come up with an alternate, non-Algonquian etymology for 'Mosopelea'? Dave > Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' > < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' From ahartley at d.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 03:31:08 2007 From: ahartley at d.umn.edu (Alan H. Hartley) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:31:08 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was > supposed to mean. Michael's lengthy message on the subject is in the Siouan List archives for May 2004, under the "'eight' some more" thread (216 lines). It's a moot point for the OED for the time being, as the editors chose not to include OFOGOULA in the current revision, presumably for lack of sufficient attestations in published English-language sources. I found I did submit a revision of the etymology slip in 2005, but I changed only the first paragraph. In the second paragraph, I persisted with "probably" instead of "possibly" for the Illinois etymology. Dave's message tonight suggests that even "possibly" is too strong. Maybe Michael could discuss his proposal with Dave. I'd like to be able to submit another revision with a surer assessment of the possibility of an Algonquian etymon--just in case OFOGOULA makes it in in the future! --- OFOGOULA n. From a Mobilian Jargon or Muskogean name, which is a reanalysis as 'dog-people', incorporating Mobilian <-oucoula> 'people', of a non-Muskogean name of uncertain origin; cf. Chickasaw ofi? 'dog' and okla 'town', Choctaw ofi 'dog' and oklah 'people', and Apalachee akola 'people'. --- Alan From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 16:12:10 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:12:10 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: My thought was that the Ohio Valley Moose-turkey was the cousin of the Wyoming Jackalope (Lepus temperamentalis). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Costa Sent: Sat 2/24/2007 6:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Such a construction would be impossible in Illinois, whatever it was supposed to mean. Didn't Bob come up with an alternate, non-Algonquian etymology for 'Mosopelea'? Dave > Mosopelea is probably an Illinois Indian name meaning literally 'deer-turkey' > < moonswa 'deer' + pile:wa 'turkey.' From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 16:49:25 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:49:25 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: > What would be phonetic interpretation of the autonym of the various eras of the Mosopelea-Ouesperie-Ofo language? 1) What is to made of the nasal attestations of the name: "Mons8pelea" and "Onspee"? The nasal vowel, [oN] would be part of the original pronunciation. In Siouan languages a nasal consonant, [m] or [n] nearly always implies the presence of nasality on the following vowel. Otherwise the consonants would have been [w] and [r] or [l]. Transcribers often wrote the nasality as a feature of the consonant rather than the vowel. 2) What does "-pelea" "-perie" represent? Is it likely a part of the autonym? Was it likely dropped from the autonym by the time the tribe became known as the Ofo, when they lived on the lower Missisippi? There is no authoritative answer to this. IF moso- was the root, these would be suffixes of some kind. Within Siouan there are numerous possibilities for things like -pe or -re or -ri, etc. The bottom line is that no one can be sure just what they might have signified. Dave Kaufman has discovered that in Biloxi -re/-ri is used to mark nominals at first mention in a discourse. Whether it is used with ethnonyms or place names is anyone's guess. Note that we don't really have a good meaning for the moso- part. It certainly did not mean 'dog' in any Siouan language. The name "Nation du Chongue" or "dog people" came from a Muskogean MISinterpretation of the word [ofo] after it had lost its M, and S had become [f]. [ofo] was too similar to Choctaw [ofi] 'dog' for them to overlook. The original Siouan meaning of *moNso- is unknown. (There is at least a resemblance to *maNs- 'metal, copper', later 'iron', but that's just guessing.) The -pe portion of the ethnonym was still pronounced when these people came in contact with the Tunica, because Swanton found it on their term for the Ofos, namely . The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:00:49 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:00:49 -0600 Subject: Pronouncing ManiN'-ithaN' Message-ID: > The "dephoneticized" way to write it would be "Moneton" or "Moniton". Accent should be on the second syllable of both words in the native language. In English it should be wherever you want it. Personally, I put it on the 1st syllable.<< I should have added Monyton, with a Y, to the list, since I believe that's the original spelling. > More specifically, what I'm wondering is, does Virginia Siouan have compound words. That is, does "Moneton" represent MaNniN'ithaN' or MaNniN' IthaN'. And, if it does represent a compound, does the stress change, such as how "counterattack" has a different stress than "counter" or "attack". Also, in Virginia Siouan, if it were a compound, would there be any blending/contraction between the phonemes of the two words (e.g. between the /iN/ of /maNniN'/ and /i/ of /ithaN'/), such as MaNniNtaN or MaNnithaN? You ask questions that are tougher than you think. Accent in compounds is a vexed question in these extinct Siouan languages. The problem is that in some Siouan languages (maybe all) there are two different kinds of compounds and they differ by their accentual patterns. Willem DeReuse discusses these in a treatment of Dakotan compounding whose title I don't have at hand. It's a very thorough job though. It's safe to say that ALL Siouan languages use compounding as a common derivational device, so it's safe to say that this is true of the OVS languages too. And it is common throughout Siouan for vowels at the end of one word to coalesce with vowels that begin the next word if they are identical. In fact that is found worldwide. And even if it weren't a characteristic of a language, it's a characteristic of naive folks who try to write foreign words and even linguists trained in transcription. So I guess that only leaves the compound stress question unanswered and unanswerable. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:21:29 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:21:29 -0600 Subject: Ohio Valley Siouan breakdown and evidence redux. Message-ID: 2) And given the (admittedly scarce) evidence for the Casa being a Siouan tribe, I'd have to say, not just 'scarce' . . . non-existant actually. > ...I wonder if there was an "Ohio Siouan" language consisting of the Mosopelea-Ousperie-Ofo and Casa tribolects, alongside the "Virginia Siouan" language, conceivably consisting of some or all of the following tribolects: Moneton, Nahyssan, Monacan, Manahoac, Tutelo, Saponi, and Occaneechi. The evidence only permits us a couple of conclusions: 1. Biloxi and Ofo (along with all of its earlier spellings) constitute one branch of the Ohio Valley subgroup of Siouan. 2. Tutelo, Saponi, Monyton and Occaneechi constitute the other (Virginia) branch of the OVS subgroup. Those are the ONLY languages for which we have any sort of proof of Siouan identity (and Occaneechi is hearsay). Nahyssan (and variant spellings) is just the Tutelo name for "Tutelo" (Tutelo was a name given them by Iroquoian speakers), and so not a separate group/language. Unfortunately "Manahoac, Monacan, Casa" (along with several other names like "Stuckanox, Tomahittan", etc.) cannot be identified as Siouan-speaking. We just don't know for sure who they were. If you uncover accounts in which more than one individual says something like "these guys speak the same language as the Tutelos", it would be a real contribution. But thus far I haven't seen anything like that. Various scholars have produced long lists of alledgedly Siouan names in VA and WV, but none of them adds up to reliable evidence. > In this case, perhaps the Casa autonym is Ohio Siouan *KhoN'?e/*KhoN'se, showing alteration between theta and ess, and with the form "Casa" being the tribe's name in the language that transmitted the name to La Salle. I'd say the identification of "Casa" as Kansa can only be taken seriously if they were located right around areas in which the ethnonym "Akans(e)a" turns up in early accounts or maps. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Feb 25 17:24:04 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:24:04 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 Message-ID: > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? Speaking just for myself, I think I'd like to wait and have the next syntax workshop the following year. I'm just not going to have time to do two papers for this year's meeting. One is going to be straining things, as I have to do two lectures at Ohio State the week after the Siouan Conference. After all, I'm supposed to be "retired", ya know. Bob From marino at skyway.usask.ca Mon Feb 26 05:59:57 2007 From: marino at skyway.usask.ca (Marino) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:59:57 -0600 Subject: SCLC 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Bob, I am open to any decision that possible contributors to a workshop make about when to have the next one. Given that we will almost certainly be fewer in number this year, and some of our key contributors can't come, it would seem sensible to defer it until SCLC 2008. You are the only person who has expressed a view about this. So far, no one who plans to come has objected to 24-25 May, and one person definitely can't come on 30-31 May, so we will have it on 24-25 May. Best, Mary At 11:24 AM 2/25/2007, you wrote: > > Also, do you want to have a Workshop? If not, do you want to have some >other meeting in which last year's conversation about a comparative grammar >volume or volumes can be resumed? Could we have both "workshop" papers (if >there are any) and ordinary papers during the two scheduled days? > >Speaking just for myself, I think I'd like to wait and have the next >syntax workshop the following year. I'm just not going to have time to do >two papers for this year's meeting. One is going to be straining things, >as I have to do two lectures at Ohio State the week after the Siouan >Conference. > >After all, I'm supposed to be "retired", ya know. > >Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Feb 26 21:42:16 2007 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:42:16 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. If this associationa is valid, and /moso/ => /ofo/, doesn't that seem to confirm that the shift from Siouan /s/ to Ofo /f/ took place fairly recently, i.e. roughly 17th to 19th century? Do we have any definite Ofo vocabulary recorded prior to Swanton? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Feb 27 15:18:22 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:18:22 -0600 Subject: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos Message-ID: It would at least show that the rule was still active then. But the change has to be after the Biloxi-Ofo split in any event. I don't actually know what word(s) was passed along before Swanton, but people knew that Ofo had an F sound, so they had assumed it was a Muskogean language. It was Swanton who identified it as Siouan. It may have come from the name "Ofo" alone. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Mon 2/26/2007 3:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Autonym of Mosopeleas-Ouesperies-Ofos > The association of Mosopelea with the Ofo would be entirely speculative if it weren't for two factors: (1) Swanton's discovery of the several variant forms of the attestation stretching from the upper reaches of the Ohio, downstream to the Mississippi and south to Louisiana, with phonetic changes evident at each stage of migration, and (2) the term refers to the Ofo in two distinct forms, Tunica "Ushpe" and Ofo [ofo], both from the same Swanton ethnonym. If this associationa is valid, and /moso/ => /ofo/, doesn't that seem to confirm that the shift from Siouan /s/ to Ofo /f/ took place fairly recently, i.e. roughly 17th to 19th century? Do we have any definite Ofo vocabulary recorded prior to Swanton? Rory