References to frozen hide

[Billy Maxwell]

> Bob thanks, the method is still done. The old ways of addressing it 
> may be gone forever for most groups. Still it pays to know what to 
> look for when it does surface.
I did get a good bit of feedback from Louis Garcia of North Dakota , 
Siouan List Member Jurgita Saltanaviciute of Ok., Benson Lanford of Or., 
and Louis Jones of Tenn..

I have yet to dig into my Mandan files or speakers, Hidatsa files and 
speakers, and Crow buddies. I thought the Dakota would be easy enough 
to find.
I asked the Siouan group after digging in Rigg's Dakota Dictionary for 
two-days!

My effort here is to try to remix effort with the ways the process is 
referred. My way of mixing words and material or process. I am cross 
referencing several languages to avoid going down a path that
never existed. We all know how misleading words can be! Here are a few 
of the replies so far:

Billy, I don't know if this would help, but my Lakota advisors on 
Rosebud gave the word Hayuhtatapi sniyapi (spelling: the second "h" 
with a dot above it, in sniyapi - the first "i" - nasal).
They say it was done in the north country. Jurga
Jurgita Saltanaviciute, M.A., Department of Anthropology, University of 
Oklahoma, 455 W. Lindsey St., Rm 521, Norman, OK 73019, 
http://www.sitekreator.com/jurga

Tahacaģa. Ta = ruminant (tatanka, Tatokana, taĥca, etc); Ha = skin, 
hide, bark; Caģa = freeze, frozen).
Another term used Tahasaka, but saka just means hard, stiff, etc. = a 
hard dried hide.
Hope this helps. Have a great day, LouieGarcia_,_._,___

Pursuant to Billy's initial comment (and Andrzej Gussman's response) 
below, let me share something that Milford Chandler told me years ago, 
ref. Indian hide tanning.  Essentially I remember his comments that 
Indians tanned in various ways to obtain different results that were 
appropriate to projects in mind.  They did indeed sometimes freeze 
hides as part of the tanning process.  He did say that freezing the 
hides expanded the fibers and that the resulting skins were very 
flexible and soft.  The trick was to hang the thoroughly wet hides in 
the outdoors in freezing weather, and let them blow-dry in the wind.  
If the hides thawed while still wet, you were back to square one. Mr. 
Chandler said that hides prepared in this way were not particularly 
suitable for moccasins-- that they wore out too quickly. For what it's 
worth-- and with regards,   Benson Lanford

Benson, Everything you said makes sense. The hides I have done this way 
are ideal for clothing, but not the best for mocs.
There is a separate term for moccasin grade skin in Dakota, 
"wa-ki'-hda-ka" n. dressed skin, leather, such as is used to make and 
mend
moccasins with (Riggs).
 From what I gather from Wilson, just sanding soft pronhorn neck skin is 
very good to mocs on the trail. Nothing elaborate.
I was talking to Rick Todd of Fort Benton years ago about the different 
ways of working hides to get the results you need for what you are 
making.
I think everyone will agree that "wa-ke'-ya" n. a skin tent, a Dakota 
lodge. See wokeya. is the best for sewing beads and quills on and for 
making mocs and making
grubby clothing. It is not ideal for fine clothing. I don't think it is 
an ideal for clothing at all, but when you scrap a lodge you may as 
well make use of it [wo'keya. n. a shelter, a cover, a booth. ke'ya, n. 
the large tortoise; a roof, adj. sloping, like a roof: keya haη, it 
stands roof like]. That should give you some alternatives to tipi 
Linda!

Perhaps wet scrape and dry also play, or not, a role in this. Tent 
skins are usually dry scraped while clothing deer, antelope, and big 
horn are almost always worked wet.
I know that is too simple to hold true for every hide worker out there. 
But, it is a thought. Feel free to attack now.

Benson Salish and Pikuni women often do (scrape and brain) a bunch of 
hides and just put them on the bushes or clothes line to dry.
They will work them soft from the dry later when they have the time. 
There is reference in the back of Blue Mountain Buckskin to this from a 
Yakama woman who tells the author that
she never worked a hide the way the author did. I will have to go back 
to look, but I think she was implying dry scraping on the frame. I have 
seen images of Plateau women also dressing (softening) a hide with a 
staking tool while the hide is in the frame. These hides I assume are 
the very best for clothing since they are even and fully worked.
I put my best "frozen" brained hide in the frame in sub-zero weather 
while wet and softened it dry in that same frame many months later.

Not all Indian ladies do their hide work the same, or maybe they do. It 
is just someone sees them working hides only for clothing. Billy
 
Billy and Benson, I found your comments about freeze-tanning and 
tanning to purpose to be spot -on.
  I have been using the freezing process for years as an integral tool 
in doing soft and stretchy hides with lots of thickness and "loft"
when doing wet-scrape hides that I needed to be that way; soaking a 
hide full of water then freezing it seems to aid in the breaking 
process at any point the hide needs breaking.
  Working a framed hide seems to result in a hide that is flatter with 
firmer and more tightly packed fibers that are better for moccasin 
uppers that need to be beaded.
I also have discovered that taking thick rawhide intended for moc soles 
and saturating them with water and freezing them, and keeping them 
frozen
  while the ice evaporates out of them makes a particularly nice 
,light,white, and flexible rawhide sole which is very easy to sew the 
upper to.
Also, I suspect that the size and weight of the hide was the major 
determinant in making the dry-scrape, wet-scrape decision. Two cents, 
Louis Jones

> Bill,
> Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help with this one.  Nothing in my files 
> from Kansa or Quapaw.  Unfortunately most linguists don't collect a 
> whole lot of specialized vocabulary -- and we should.  I fear a lot of 
> the detailed terminology of traditional practices may be gone forever. 
>  I'll be interested to see if anyone else has something for this.
> Bob Rankin
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 8143 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20070208/ed89062a/attachment.bin>