From rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Nov 2 20:14:53 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:14:53 -0400 Subject: SACC2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Either dates will work for me. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 4:42 am Subject: SACC2009 Aloha all, ? Thanks for the feedback about the proposed site of the 2009 SACC. The There seems to be encouragement for the Lincoln, Nebraska venue. ? Please consider the following 2 choices of dates and let me know your preferences ASAP. ? Friday June 5 through Sunday June 7 ? Friday June 12 through Sunday June 14 ? FYI, The following weekend is Father's Day and is discarded. The preceeding weekend may impact end of academic year activities for local public schools (reservation and urban) and is discarded. ? The meeting dates will be selected based upon majority preference... so chip in your 2 cents worth early! ? WibthahoN Uthighide ? ? Mark?Awakuni-Swetland,?Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic?Studies?(Native?American?Studies) University?of?Nebraska-Lincoln 841?Oldfather?Hall Lincoln,?NE?68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office:?402-472-3455 FAX:?402-472-9642 ONska?abthiN!?Thi?shti? = ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 18:49:21 2007 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:49:21 -0800 Subject: Translation? Message-ID: Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Nov 4 20:43:38 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q? Alfred_W._T=FCting ?=) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:43:38 +0100 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: <364516.12551.qm@web50807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), how (??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? And what clothing did they wear? Alfred (my tuppence) Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: > Could someone help me with an english translation to the following > Lakota sentances? > > taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. > na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi > ewicakiyab. taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte > nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin > lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Nov 4 23:30:02 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:30:02 -0600 Subject: Fw: Translation? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: KevinLocke To: Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Translation? I think there may be a better translation, but this should be close enough for jazz. All the best!! KL On Nov 4, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Translation? Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo.that you have revealed these things and I have looked towards them in a good way, I offer thanks to you. na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha,and now I have a question. ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. the men of old who were called to be scouts taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? of this and more I wish to learn that I may see and be made able to discover/find. taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? I wish to learn these lessons and how these men (scouts) were able to conceal (themselves). and what type of clothing (disguise) they used?? Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Nov 5 06:08:01 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:08:01 +1100 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: <6225CBB4-C6E4-4F84-AADC-DDF1C08B1F13@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: >> Could someone help me with an english translation to the following >> Lakota sentances? >> Another version - no great differences, but I needed the practise : >> taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. "I've looked over (considered) these things you have shown me, and they're great, so I'm obliged to you." (prob. : "pilamaYAye lo"(2pSg. Subj.), rather than "pilamaye lo"(3pSg. Subj) - unless latter was ikceya-woglakapi for former, with 'yelo' added as afterthought??) >> na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi >> ewicakiyab. "And now, I've got a question, (regarding/speaking of) these men who were called 'scouts', in the old days." >> taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakin kte nains >> iyewaye owakihi hwo? "I want to learn some more, so where should I consider (looking), or where might I find it?" >> taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? >> nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? "I'd like some information (lit. "instruction/lesson") on the following things : " (Is "wounspe" in genitival relation with preceding "taku kin lena" : "instruction OF (on/about) these matters"?) "How did these men practise concealment?" "And what sort of clothes did they wear at the time?" Tuppence-ha'penny worth from the Land of the Big Dry! Clive. On 05/11/2007, at 7:43 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to > you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about > those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former > times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? > > (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), > how(??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? > And what clothing did they wear? > > Alfred (my tuppence) > > > >> >> >> Be a friend... >> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, >> go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 11:40:12 2007 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 03:40:12 -0800 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so very much for the help. Jonathan Clive Bloomfield wrote: Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? Another version - no great differences, but I needed the practise : taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. "I've looked over (considered) these things you have shown me, and they're great, so I'm obliged to you." (prob. : "pilamaYAye lo"(2pSg. Subj.), rather than "pilamaye lo"(3pSg. Subj) - unless latter was ikceya-woglakapi for former, with 'yelo' added as afterthought??) na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. "And now, I've got a question, (regarding/speaking of) these men who were called 'scouts', in the old days." taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakin kte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? "I want to learn some more, so where should I consider (looking), or where might I find it?" taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? "I'd like some information (lit. "instruction/lesson") on the following things : " (Is "wounspe" in genitival relation with preceding "taku kin lena" : "instruction OF (on/about) these matters"?) "How did these men practise concealment?" "And what sort of clothes did they wear at the time?" Tuppence-ha'penny worth from the Land of the Big Dry! Clive. On 05/11/2007, at 7:43 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), how(??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? And what clothing did they wear? Alfred (my tuppence) Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 6 02:52:56 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:52:56 -0600 Subject: sunflowers Message-ID: All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 09:57:13 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:57:13 -0800 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Osage miihtoNeli is miiN 'sun' + toNpe truncated to toNe ' look at, see, watch' + alí 'return here' Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 6 14:08:51 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:08:51 -0600 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BOB, Grandma Elizabeth Stabler's lexicon notes sunflower as "zha'xtha zi" or "yellow blossom weed", I think. I will try to check the JOD slip file microfilm later this morning. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 11/05/2007 08:52 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Nov 6 14:19:55 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:19:55 EST Subject: sunflowers Message-ID: Bob, The Catawba word is 'nuNti:cak 'sunflower' ('nuNti: 'sun, moon' + cak 'touch'). Blair ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 6 15:02:57 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:02:57 -0600 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: Have several entries, starting with the one I was able to get from late Elders: xámoxra awádhe^uxra (flower + shifting + bloom). [awádhe as in the wind, tipi flaps] waxrathi ~ waxradhi (bloom + yellow) CURTIS. waxradhihunshje (sunflower root) uxradhi^e (bloom + yellow + those (that)) MAXIMILLAN ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu ; siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 8:08 AM Subject: Re: sunflowers BOB, Grandma Elizabeth Stabler's lexicon notes sunflower as "zha'xtha zi" or "yellow blossom weed", I think. I will try to check the JOD slip file microfilm later this morning. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 11/05/2007 08:52 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 15:23:04 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:23:04 -0800 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Blair, Interesting the possible Catawba correlates with Biloxi: naoNde, 'today' (related to Catawba 'sun, moon'?) and cake, 'hand' (related to Catawba 'touch'?) The D-S Biloxi dict has no entry, by the way, for sunflower. Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: Bob, The Catawba word is 'nuNti:cak 'sunflower' ('nuNti: 'sun, moon' + cak 'touch'). Blair --------------------------------- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 6 16:38:56 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:38:56 -0600 Subject: sunflowers MORE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, >>From JOD reel 2 frame 83 zha a genus including all yellow flowering plants as the artichokes & sunflowers, etc 2.84 zhaxthazi The yellow flowers of the different species of the "zha" genus, including the sunflowers (Om.Soc.283). Not the regular sunflower of the prairie, but a shorter plant which matures in September (George Miller) Om.Soc.283 ...The time for the return [from the te une buffalo hunt] was when the wind blew open the "jaqcashi," the sunflowers and the flowers of other species of the "ja," which was about the first of September. >>From Gilmore's Uses of Plants... p. 78 Helianthus annus L. Sunflower zhazi (Omaha-Ponca) "yellow wee" Gilmore includes the Dakdota and Pawnee terms which I will not try to render in email script. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Fri Nov 9 22:20:10 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:20:10 -0600 Subject: Coming to SSILA Message-ID: Hi Siouanists: I am coming to SSILA in Chicago (Jan 2-6), and I made a reservation at the Palmer House Hilton. I wanted to know if any of you were interested in sharing a room with me. Best, Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 13 15:04:03 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:04:03 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. Message-ID: Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill From linguista at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 19:21:50 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:21:50 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please do not take my silence on dates as disinterest. My summer is a big unknown at this point, as is my autumn thereafter, so I have nothing productive to offer to this discussion. I think all the dates are great! - Bryan James Gordon 2007/11/13, Rankin, Robert L : > Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. > > ________________________________ > > From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] > Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM > To: Rankin, Robert L > Subject: Re: Report from MALC. > > > > Hi, Bob, > I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). > > First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) > > I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! > > Best, > Jill > > > > From rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 13 22:00:59 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:00:59 -0500 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A date before June 1 would work best for me. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 8:04 am Subject: 2008 MALC. Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 13 22:12:09 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:09 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. Message-ID: I think pretty much any time in May or June will be ok for me - at least no obvious conflicts that I know of yet. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 11/13/2007 9:04 AM >>> Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Nov 16 16:13:25 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:13:25 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha All, I will be teaching a pre-session summer course immediately after spring semester. I would not have a free weekend until June 14-15 which is also Father's Day and Flag Day. Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardisrachel at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 09:29:47 2007 From: ardisrachel at gmail.com (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:29:47 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > All: > > I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid > America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number > of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers > from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas > Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the > organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. > > As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone > was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the > dates, etc. for that. > > Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the > conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite > close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be > contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her > institution. > > John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we > look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. > > In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, > we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda > Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. > grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over > now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This > means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their > promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to > Linda. > > And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite > a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all > since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal > enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology > is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly > cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly > cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of > it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I > can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the > prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) > > It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We > missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an > excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope > to see more of. > > Wiblahan everyone, > > Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 20 09:43:52 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:43:52 +0000 Subject: Report from MALC. In-Reply-To: <6e9927690711200129wc254cceled79b24f594fdc96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Congratulations to Ardis on the Flying Hawk. Nice name Bruce Ardis Eschenberg wrote: Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: All: I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the dates, etc. for that. Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her institution. John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to Linda. And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope to see more of. Wiblahan everyone, Bob --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 20 22:08:23 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:08:23 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. Message-ID: Ardis! You're alive!! Actually, I've been at least as bad as you about keeping in touch, and with less of an excuse. It's been a ridiculously busy semester, but still... We are heading for Wisconsin tomorrow morning. Then there will be just another 3 or 4 weekends before we disappear for the semester. What's your schedule like? I'd really like to get together sometime. I still have that cd I made for Mrs. Clay's sisters, among other things - I was hoping to get the transcription closer to finished, but that's probably not going to happen this month, so I might as well just bring it to you as is. It would be good just to see you, too. Are you definitely teaching the linguistics course here spring semester? It's got a dozen students signed up but no instructor listed officially... I know Alan was putting off calling you, at one point, till he'd have an idea whether the class was going to make or not. But by this time hopefully he has. Happy Thanksgiving to the whole family! Catherine >>> "Ardis Eschenberg" 11/20/2007 3:29 AM >>> Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: All: I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the dates, etc. for that. Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her institution. John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to Linda. And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope to see more of. Wiblahan everyone, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 20 22:16:28 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:16:28 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. Message-ID: AHHH! I'm sorry - I do this too often. When an email says it is from a specific person it seems like hitting "reply" (and NOT "reply to all") should send one's response to just that person, not the whole list ... is there any way the system can be tweaked so idiots like me are less likely to annoy everyone with our personal mail? Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 20 23:44:42 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:44:42 -0600 Subject: sunflower terms Message-ID: Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Our results are in the attached Word document. Occasionally non-Microsoft email servers convert these documents into unreadable "winmail.dat" files that cannot be opened. If this should happen, let me know and I'll resend the document via another account. Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu] Sent: Mon 11/5/2007 2:47 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: sunflower terms Dear Dr. Rankin, My colleague Nick Hopkins suggested that I contact you to get indigenous terms for sunflower. I would like to get some representative terms from the middle Mississippi valley where sunflower was evidently domesticated in North America (such as Mandan) as well as southeast Muskogean representative terms. It would be helpful if you could provide me with the indigenous terms and their translations as well. The reason I am asking is that working in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico near the site of La Venta, we excavated remains of sunflower dating to ca. 2600 B.C. Evidently sunflower was independently domesticated in Mexico; that is our argument. Paleoethnobotanist David Lentz has collected indigenous Mexican terms for sunflower. We would like to see whether they are distinct from terms used in North America. If they are distinct, this fact would be one supporting line of evidence for our hypothesis that there were two domestications of sunflower. Thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely yours, Mary Pohl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sunflower.doc Type: application/msword Size: 31232 bytes Desc: sunflower.doc URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Mon Nov 26 22:40:28 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:40:28 -0600 Subject: John Koontz e-mail address Message-ID: Hi all: Does John Koontz have a new e-mail address? I have been trying to send him personal e-mail, unsuccessfully. Best, Willem de Reuse From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 27 00:56:21 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:56:21 -0600 Subject: John Koontz e-mail address In-Reply-To: <20071126164028.tlbf3oezvngg8wgg@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've had the same experience. It is very quiet over in his direction. Can someone comment, of course, preferably, John himself. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:40 PM Subject: John Koontz e-mail address > Hi all: > > Does John Koontz have a new e-mail address? I have been trying to send him > personal e-mail, unsuccessfully. > > Best, > > Willem de Reuse > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 27 16:34:28 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:34:28 -0600 Subject: Fw: language Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Benabe To: Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM Subject: language http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 8 Tribal language fading away by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer 11/26/2007 1:37 AM Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes. ANADARKO -- Oklahoma had been a state for only two decades when Doris Jean Lamar was born in 1927. Her first spoken words were not English, but an American Indian language taught to her by grandparents. Today, Lamar is the last fluent speaker in the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes, a tribe of 2,300. Sitting in a tribal canteen that she supervises, the 80-year-old Lamar carries a language that once was spoken by thousands, then hundreds of Wichita language speakers. "I never thought I would be in this position as a girl, to be our last fluent speaker," she said. Wichita is one of the languages classified as Caddoan, but is only similar in stock to the Caddo language, scholars said. Lamar's tribe is one of a handful indigenous to Oklahoma with a present-day jurisdiction in Caddo County. Lamar's journey was not unlike other girls in southwest Oklahoma in the years right before the Great Depression. Her full-blood maternal grandparents worked a farm and raised their grandchildren. She recalls fewer cars, more thriftiness and no electricity back then. With a white father and an Indian mother, Lamar stood out among her peers. "I never thought of myself as white; to me, I was Wichita," she said. "The old ladies of our tribe thought it was something to hear this little white girl speak Wichita." She eventually married a non-Indian and had children. After she divorced in 1959, she moved back among her Indian relatives near Gracemont. She continued to speak Wichita as she did as a girl. "Ever since I could remember, I spoke Wichita," she said. "My husband told me that me speaking Indian was the only time he remembered I was Indian." Around 1962, Lamar met an earnest young linguist who followed tribal members in order to listen to them speak, she recalled. That young linguist was David Rood from the University of Colorado. Rood has been working with the Wichitas since he stumbled upon the Indian language while looking for one that was not being preserved, he said. He still works with Lamar and other tribal members. They race to record the Wichita language so that a dictionary can be gleaned. They have spent hours going over Wichita words and compiling language CDs on creation stories, verbs, nouns and names. Defining tribal fluency can be tricky, Rood said. In small tribes, debates exist over who qualifies as a fluent speaker. Lamar speaks some Wichita with another tribal member who labors with the language. "She tells me there are so many words in her head that she can't get out, she gets frustrated," Lamar said. Speaking and writing the language are key. Sometimes tribal members know ceremonial songs by heart. Yet linguists think fluency is more complicated than that. "I would say when somebody is able to speak the language in a way that has never been spoken before or ever written in a language book . . . as an abstract thought, then that is fluency," Rood said. The linguist tried to organize a conversation among the last few fluent Wichita speakers in the early 2000s, he said. He regards the exercise as a half-success. But the gathering was stilted because of political differences among the speakers. "Which is typical in almost all Indian tribes," he said of tribal political factions. "They spoke a little, but not much." Hope exists for the Wichitas' dying language. An immersion class for children has been soldiering forward, as is an adult-oriented language class, both subsidized by fed eral grants. But the Wichitas must cross another obstacle of language revitalization: retention. Sam Still, a Cherokee speaker, said retention among adults and children remains low if the language is not already spoken in the home. "For children, when they have no one at home to speak the language with, there is no one to practice the sounds with and they lose it," Still said. "When you're around the language, you learn it better." Meanwhile, Lamar fishes a small recorder out of her pocket and turns it on. She speaks English words first, then the Wichita word follows. "I have been doing this a lot, lately," she said, pressing play. "I just put whatever words pop into my head." The tribal elder is aware that her language hangs on the precipice. She remembers the time when everyone around her spoke Wichita. Now, none of her children speak more than a few words, she said. "They live in the white world," she said. "I don't." S.E. Ruckman 581-8462 se.ruckman at tulsaworld.com ***** Fluent, but for how long? Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: Chirachua Apache Osage Otoe Ottawa Plains Apache Quapaw Wichita Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: Alabama Cayuga Delaware (Lenape) Hitchiti, Mikasuki Kaw (Kansa) Kitsai Koasati Mesquakie (Fox) Miami, Peoria Modoc Natchez Seneca Tonkawa Wyandotte -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 27 21:59:07 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:59:07 -0500 Subject: sunflower terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had trouble finding a Crow term for 'sunflower'.? One woman volunteered baauhpashi'ile (baa 'indefinite' + uhpa' 'upper end' + shi'ile 'yellow').? I asked half a dozen other people, and none knew a word for sunflower.? So it certainly is not in common usage.? One volunteered a term for sunflower seeds: baachiche'essaawaaluusuua (baa 'indefinite' + chicheessaa 'lonesome' + baa 'indefinite' + duusuua 'eat') 'the food you eat when you're lonesome'!? Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: Mary Pohl Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 4:44 pm Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Our results are in the attached Word document. Occasionally non-Microsoft email servers convert these documents into unreadable "winmail.dat" files that cannot be opened. If this should happen, let me know and I'll resend the document via another account. Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu] Sent: Mon 11/5/2007 2:47 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: sunflower terms Dear Dr. Rankin, My colleague Nick Hopkins suggested that I contact you to get indigenous terms for sunflower. I would like to get some representative terms from the middle Mississippi valley where sunflower was evidently domesticated in North America (such as Mandan) as well as southeast Muskogean representative terms. It would be helpful if you could provide me with the indigenous terms and their translations as well. The reason I am asking is that working in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico near the site of La Venta, we excavated remains of sunflower dating to ca. 2600 B.C. Evidently sunflower was independently domesticated in Mexico; that is our argument. Paleoethnobotanist David Lentz has collected indigenous Mexican terms for sunflower. We would like to see whether they are distinct from terms used in North America. If they are distinct, this fact would be one supporting line of evidence for our hypothesis that there were two domestications of sunflower. Thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely yours, Mary Pohl ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Tue Nov 27 22:30:28 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:30:28 -0700 Subject: sunflower terms In-Reply-To: <8C9FF57DE44E8DF-7FC-2B15@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Did you try Alma Snell? She has her new Crow botany book out. A Taste of Heritage: Crow Indian Recipes and Herbal Medicines (Paperback) by Alma Hogan Snell (Author) "Food is something I seem destined to care about..." (more) Key Phrases: Pretty Shield, Fort Belknap, Editor's Note (more...) http://www.grannysstore.com/Nature_Wildlife/Alma_Hogan_Snell.htm Sorry to not track your sunflower search that well. Mandan for sunflower is [wąpé ósᵉrre] Cf. wąpé, sreh sunflower plant is wąpé Billy Maxwell On Nov 27, 2007, at 2:59 PM, rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > I had trouble finding a Crow term for 'sunflower'.  One woman > volunteered baauhpashi'ile (baa 'indefinite' + uhpa' 'upper end' + > shi'ile 'yellow').  I asked half a dozen other people, and none knew a > word for sunflower.  So it certainly is not in common usage.  One > volunteered a term for sunflower seeds: baachiche'essaawaaluusuua (baa > 'indefinite' + chicheessaa 'lonesome' + baa 'indefinite' + duusuua > 'eat') 'the food you eat when you're lonesome'!  > Randy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1173 bytes Desc: not available URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Nov 27 22:50:44 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:50:44 -0600 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: <6A62C5359B1647EC9D9917F0FE3826E1@JGHP> Message-ID: Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico.) Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Benabe > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM > Subject: language > > > http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 > 8 > > Tribal language fading away > > by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer > 11/26/2007 1:37 AM > > Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated > Tribes. > > (...)> > ***** > > Fluent, but for how long? > > Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: > > Chirachua Apache > Osage > Otoe > Ottawa > Plains Apache > Quapaw > Wichita > > Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: > > Alabama > Cayuga > Delaware (Lenape) > Hitchiti, Mikasuki > Kaw (Kansa) > Kitsai > Koasati > Mesquakie (Fox) > Miami, Peoria > Modoc > Natchez > Seneca > Tonkawa > Wyandotte > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Nov 27 23:16:47 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:16:47 -0700 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: <20071127165044.cp3c3l5boo8o088s@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 27 23:28:47 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:28:47 -0800 Subject: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the compilers of this list meant *Oklahoma* languages, since that's the only way this list makes any sense. Ottawa has way more than five speakers up in Canada, and outside Oklahoma, Alabama, Cayuga, Mikasuki, Koasati, Mesquakie, and Seneca are definitely *not* extinct. David >>> Fluent, but for how long? >>> >>> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >>> >>> Chirachua Apache >>> Osage >>> Otoe >>> Ottawa >>> Plains Apache >>> Quapaw >>> Wichita >>> >>> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >>> >>> Alabama >>> Cayuga >>> Delaware (Lenape) >>> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >>> Kaw (Kansa) >>> Kitsai >>> Koasati >>> Mesquakie (Fox) >>> Miami, Peoria >>> Modoc >>> Natchez >>> Seneca >>> Tonkawa >>> Wyandotte >>> >> >> From jurga at ou.edu Wed Nov 28 00:13:53 2007 From: jurga at ou.edu (Saltanaviciute, Jurgita) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:13:53 -0600 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It looks to me like the list of languages in the article was the one compiled by the Intertribal Wordpath Society, http://www.ahalenia.com/iws/status.html, and yes, it addresses only Oklahoma languages. Interesting description of language fluency. It made me doubt if I know even my native Lithuanian, because whatever I say in it has been said by somebody else or can be as easily said by somebody else. Also, interesting to know that a newspaper has a policy not to show the draft article to the person about who they write. My experience has been that I get sent the drafts of articles or scripts for final editing. Cautions one about working with the media! Jurgita Saltanaviciute, M.A. Department of Anthropology University of Oklahoma Norman, OK 73019 http:www.sitekreator.com/jurga ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: language Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 28 01:18:18 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:18:18 -0600 Subject: Fw: language Message-ID: Willem's caveat applies to Quapaw and Osage also. I think the problem may well rest in different definitions of fluency. After all the speakers who could converse easily about novel topics are gone, it is common to find persons who know a long list of vocabulary items described as "knowing" the language. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of willemdereuse at unt.edu Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 4:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; Jimm GoodTracks Cc: iowaysonline at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Fw: language Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico.) Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Benabe > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM > Subject: language > > > http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 > 8 > > Tribal language fading away > > by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer > 11/26/2007 1:37 AM > > Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated > Tribes. > > (...)> > ***** > > Fluent, but for how long? > > Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: > > Chirachua Apache > Osage > Otoe > Ottawa > Plains Apache > Quapaw > Wichita > > Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: > > Alabama > Cayuga > Delaware (Lenape) > Hitchiti, Mikasuki > Kaw (Kansa) > Kitsai > Koasati > Mesquakie (Fox) > Miami, Peoria > Modoc > Natchez > Seneca > Tonkawa > Wyandotte > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 28 01:31:48 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:31:48 -0600 Subject: RE language Message-ID: For what it's worth, after several bad experiences being misquoted and/or misinterpreted by reporters, I have taken to drafting written answers to all the questions asked by each reporter and emailing my summary to them immediately after the interview. I try to get it to them before their publishing deadline so that they can quote me precisely if they want to. It's an old lawyers' trick. -- Write your briefs so that the judge can quote them without thinking for himself. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 5:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: language Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 28 15:43:46 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:43:46 -0700 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Saltanaviciute, Jurgita wrote: > > Interesting description of language fluency. It made me doubt if I know > even my native Lithuanian, because whatever I say in it has been said by > somebody else or can be as easily said by somebody else. Aha! The crucial part of your statement is "or can be as easily said by somebody else". That's part of the difference between a living language and one that's moribund. YOu and many other people know not only the vocabulary of the language but also its grammatical rules; you can assemble the pieces in novel ways. People who are trying to revive moribund languages often have only the vocabulary and not the tools for making up new statements, and no matter how many words or phrases they learn, the possibility of being creative will be missing. > > > Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself > Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. > I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she > said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat > misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have > anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know > a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else > say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive > and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition > she deserves. > > I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I > agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > >> Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. >> >> Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning >> Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there >> are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more >> than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New >> Mexico.) >> >> Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Pat Benabe >>> To: Jimm Goodtracks >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >>> Subject: language >>> >>> >>> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >>> 8 >>> >>> Tribal language fading away >>> >>> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >>> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >>> >>> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >>> Tribes. >>> >>> (...)> >>> ***** >>> >>> Fluent, but for how long? >>> >>> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >>> >>> Chirachua Apache >>> Osage >>> Otoe >>> Ottawa >>> Plains Apache >>> Quapaw >>> Wichita >>> >>> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >>> >>> Alabama >>> Cayuga >>> Delaware (Lenape) >>> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >>> Kaw (Kansa) >>> Kitsai >>> Koasati >>> Mesquakie (Fox) >>> Miami, Peoria >>> Modoc >>> Natchez >>> Seneca >>> Tonkawa >>> Wyandotte >>> >> >> > From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 28 16:33:57 2007 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:33:57 -0700 Subject: Reports of My Inactivity Are More or Less on Target Message-ID: Since folks are wondering about me, I wanted to let people know that I am well. Just somewhat inactive linguistically. I'll try to do something about that! John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Nov 29 17:18:24 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:18:24 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN Message-ID: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:33:38 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:33:38 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: <3526C1D169C04BB7BFFF96AFE33D5995@JGHP> Message-ID: It often happens that a language doesn't have a concept that another language does happen. This doesn't necessarily mean that the concept is "not important" to the culture, but it does mean that in past historical time the concept was unimportant enough not to develop a concept word. People create new concepts all the time, though, and they often invent words for them. We invent words in English so often it makes our heads spin. When they brought Hebrew back from the grave, they took hundreds of words for things that hadn't existed in 2000 years, and twisted them into words for things that exist now. Both of these - the English way and the Hebrew way - are possible ways to come up with words for new concepts. In terms of the particular concept in question, an interesting strategy would be this (assuming that there are no fluent speakers to ask): a) Look at the words you want to tie to this concept, like "feels good" "feels helpless" "hurt one's feelings". What do they have in common? Likely some of them but not all have some stem or pattern in common. b) Look at other concepts in the language. How are they formed from similar stems and patterns? c) Use something similar. This way you avoid having too much English borrowing by using stems and patterns that come from the same language. The French had no word for "email", so they invented one based on words they already had: "courier électronique", or the abbreviation "courriel". Of course most people say "e-mail" anyway. But who knows? "Courriel" could catch on eventually. Of course it's much easier to "force" a word to catch on when it's only a few people you have to convince instead of hundreds of millions. Look at umbrella concept words we already have. "Furniture" is a weird word if you think about it. It describes a bunch of wood and upholstery constructs that seat either your food, your things or your tush. Languages closely related to English have no word like this. German says "Möbel" which is a word for a single piece of furniture, not for the concept as a whole. Clearly "Möbel" which comes from "mobile" (furniture is more mobile than larger wood constructs like houses for instance) is not even similar to "furniture", which comes from "furnish". At some point in the past someone who spoke English or Norman French decided that they needed a word to unite chairs, shelves and tables, and they decided to use a variant of a verb that meant "provide" or "accomplish" at the time. They must have thought of furniture as things you "provide" to the interior of your dwelling, or as things which "provide" surfaces to get stuff done, or something like that. We may never know. But that's the way this stuff works. There's also nothing wrong with pulling a concept word out of left field like "furniture" from "provide". "Feelings" in English is the same thing: sadness and hope have little to do with "feeling" something with your fingers, but that's where the word comes from anyway. It doesn't have to be the same in every other language. A good idea I just came up with is "mouth-shapes" to reflect how feelings show up on our mouths. All languages are free to do whatever they want. Note: this kind of "tinkering" with a language is seen by some people as "tampering" and really irks them! There's a common philosophy that the way the most conservative speakers speak a language, or the way the last fluent speakers spoke the language if there are none, is the only right way. But living languages are NEVER spoken the same way by all generations. When they brought Hebrew back from the dead, many people were quaking with anger at how the holy words were being used to describe everyday modern life and how they weren't "the same" as the original words. But language doesn't stay the same if it needs to stay alive. "Tinkering" is an important way to have what you call "mature conversation in any language", Jimm. In terms of your question whether it's not worthy of discussion, of course it is! In terms of your question whether it's a legitimate concern: that depends on who's concerned. If the people using the language want to have a word for a concept, they need to create one. If they have this desire, then it's a legitimate concern. What are other people's thoughts on tinkering? Thanks for this Jimm: it's good to think of languages as living things being revitalised every now and then instead of the usual view in linguistics of stale objects to be described and studied! 2007/11/29, Jimm GoodTracks : > > > First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff > as we all do. > > Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are > words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that > can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, > sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" > and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). > But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for > "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I > have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, > Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the > subject of Abstract Notions. > > Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. > > I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike > the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they > are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. > Jimm > > From BARudes at aol.com Fri Nov 30 02:47:05 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:47:05 EST Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/2007 12:23:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goodtracks at peoplepc.com writes: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm Jimm, Abstract notions are absolutely a legitimate concern and an all to often overlooked one. One difficulty is that discovering the terms for abstract notions for a non-native speaker often requires abandoning preconceived notions of what those terms should be. In English and the languages of other Indo-European cultures, there is a metaphoric association of emotions with physical sensations. Thus, the use of the term “feelings” for emotions. In other cultures, emotions are associated with non-physical phenomena of cognition. For example in the Tuscarora language (and other Northern Iroquoian languages), emotions belong to the “class” of phenomena that are “classified” by the abstract noun root -?tikeNhr- ‘mind’ (-?nikuhr- in Mohawk, -?nikuhl- in Oneida, -?nikoNhR- in Seneca, Cayuga, and Mohawk). If you look at any dictionary of an Iroquoian language, you will find that terms incorporating the noun root for ‘mind’ refer to thinking, believing, and (emotional) feeling. In addition, the verb stems that incorporate the noun root for ‘mind’ also include “states-of-being” that would be considered in Western culture to be physical conditions. As one example, I once asked Marjorie (Marge) Printup – a fluent speaker of Tuscarora who has since passed away – how to translate the expression “drug-free” into Tuscarora. She responded with the word ka?tikeNhran`ureN?, which literally means “a precious mind”. I have not specifically looked at the Catawba data for such abstract notions, but nothing comes to mind. But of course the data on Catawba are very limited, not only in quantity but in what the researchers thought to ask about. If I run across any relevant information, I will post it on the list. Blair **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 30 10:22:20 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:22:20 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: True abstract notions are difficult to sort out. In Lakota I note that I have a word woableze 'perception' and would think that ableza 'to perceive, understand' could stand for 'feel' as well'. The word slolya 'know, experience' also comes near to it as in teh^i slolya 'experience difficulties, have a hard time'. Often as you note there is a specific word for things like 'feel sad', feel happy' sometimes involving chante 'heart' obviously in Lakota the seat of emotions. So one finds chante s^ica 'feel sad', chante was^te 'feel happy'. The word thawacin is also often translated 'feelings, emotions' though I can't think how it could be used in a sentence. I would love to know what other Lakotanists think might stand for 'feel, feelings'. Bruce BARudes at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/29/2007 12:23:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goodtracks at peoplepc.com writes: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm Jimm, Abstract notions are absolutely a legitimate concern and an all to often overlooked one. One difficulty is that discovering the terms for abstract notions for a non-native speaker often requires abandoning preconceived notions of what those terms should be. In English and the languages of other Indo-European cultures, there is a metaphoric association of emotions with physical sensations. Thus, the use of the term “feelings” for emotions. In other cultures, emotions are associated with non-physical phenomena of cognition. For example in the Tuscarora language (and other Northern Iroquoian languages), emotions belong to the “class” of phenomena that are “classified” by the abstract noun root -?tikeNhr- ‘mind’ (-?nikuhr- in Mohawk, -?nikuhl- in Oneida, -?nikoNhR- in Seneca, Cayuga, and Mohawk). If you look at any dictionary of an Iroquoian language, you will find that terms incorporating the noun root for ‘mind’ refer to thinking, believing, and (emotional) feeling. In addition, the verb stems that incorporate the noun root for ‘mind’ also include “states-of-being” that would be considered in Western culture to be physical conditions. As one example, I once asked Marjorie (Marge) Printup – a fluent speaker of Tuscarora who has since passed away – how to translate the expression “drug-free” into Tuscarora. She responded with the word ka?tikeNhran`ureN?, which literally means “a precious mind”. I have not specifically looked at the Catawba data for such abstract notions, but nothing comes to mind. But of course the data on Catawba are very limited, not only in quantity but in what the researchers thought to ask about. If I run across any relevant information, I will post it on the list. Blair --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at aol.com Fri Nov 2 20:14:53 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:14:53 -0400 Subject: SACC2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Either dates will work for me. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 4:42 am Subject: SACC2009 Aloha all, ? Thanks for the feedback about the proposed site of the 2009 SACC. The There seems to be encouragement for the Lincoln, Nebraska venue. ? Please consider the following 2 choices of dates and let me know your preferences ASAP. ? Friday June 5 through Sunday June 7 ? Friday June 12 through Sunday June 14 ? FYI, The following weekend is Father's Day and is discarded. The preceeding weekend may impact end of academic year activities for local public schools (reservation and urban) and is discarded. ? The meeting dates will be selected based upon majority preference... so chip in your 2 cents worth early! ? WibthahoN Uthighide ? ? Mark?Awakuni-Swetland,?Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic?Studies?(Native?American?Studies) University?of?Nebraska-Lincoln 841?Oldfather?Hall Lincoln,?NE?68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office:?402-472-3455 FAX:?402-472-9642 ONska?abthiN!?Thi?shti? = ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 18:49:21 2007 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:49:21 -0800 Subject: Translation? Message-ID: Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Nov 4 20:43:38 2007 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q? Alfred_W._T=FCting ?=) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:43:38 +0100 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: <364516.12551.qm@web50807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), how (??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? And what clothing did they wear? Alfred (my tuppence) Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: > Could someone help me with an english translation to the following > Lakota sentances? > > taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. > na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi > ewicakiyab. taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte > nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin > lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? > > > Be a friend... > Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, > go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Sun Nov 4 23:30:02 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:30:02 -0600 Subject: Fw: Translation? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: KevinLocke To: Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Translation? I think there may be a better translation, but this should be close enough for jazz. All the best!! KL On Nov 4, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Holmes To: Siouan List Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Translation? Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo.that you have revealed these things and I have looked towards them in a good way, I offer thanks to you. na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha,and now I have a question. ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. the men of old who were called to be scouts taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakinkte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? of this and more I wish to learn that I may see and be made able to discover/find. taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? I wish to learn these lessons and how these men (scouts) were able to conceal (themselves). and what type of clothing (disguise) they used?? Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Nov 5 06:08:01 2007 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:08:01 +1100 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: <6225CBB4-C6E4-4F84-AADC-DDF1C08B1F13@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: > Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: >> Could someone help me with an english translation to the following >> Lakota sentances? >> Another version - no great differences, but I needed the practise : >> taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. "I've looked over (considered) these things you have shown me, and they're great, so I'm obliged to you." (prob. : "pilamaYAye lo"(2pSg. Subj.), rather than "pilamaye lo"(3pSg. Subj) - unless latter was ikceya-woglakapi for former, with 'yelo' added as afterthought??) >> na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi >> ewicakiyab. "And now, I've got a question, (regarding/speaking of) these men who were called 'scouts', in the old days." >> taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakin kte nains >> iyewaye owakihi hwo? "I want to learn some more, so where should I consider (looking), or where might I find it?" >> taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? >> nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? "I'd like some information (lit. "instruction/lesson") on the following things : " (Is "wounspe" in genitival relation with preceding "taku kin lena" : "instruction OF (on/about) these matters"?) "How did these men practise concealment?" "And what sort of clothes did they wear at the time?" Tuppence-ha'penny worth from the Land of the Big Dry! Clive. On 05/11/2007, at 7:43 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to > you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about > those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former > times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? > > (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), > how(??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? > And what clothing did they wear? > > Alfred (my tuppence) > > > >> >> >> Be a friend... >> Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, >> go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 11:40:12 2007 From: okibjonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 03:40:12 -0800 Subject: Translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so very much for the help. Jonathan Clive Bloomfield wrote: Am 04.11.2007 um 19:49 schrieb Jonathan Holmes: Could someone help me with an english translation to the following Lakota sentances? Another version - no great differences, but I needed the practise : taku kin lena mayakipazo ca iwanblake na wastelo ca pilamaye yelo. "I've looked over (considered) these things you have shown me, and they're great, so I'm obliged to you." (prob. : "pilamaYAye lo"(2pSg. Subj.), rather than "pilamaye lo"(3pSg. Subj) - unless latter was ikceya-woglakapi for former, with 'yelo' added as afterthought??) na wanna woiyunge wanji bluha, ehanni wicasa kin lena tonweyapi ewicakiyab. "And now, I've got a question, (regarding/speaking of) these men who were called 'scouts', in the old days." taku isam wounspemiciciye wacin ca tuktel iwanblakin kte nains iyewaye owakihi hwo? "I want to learn some more, so where should I consider (looking), or where might I find it?" taku kin lena wounspe wacin, wicasa kin lena toske inahmapi hwo? nahan ehan taku hayapi kin unpi hwo? "I'd like some information (lit. "instruction/lesson") on the following things : " (Is "wounspe" in genitival relation with preceding "taku kin lena" : "instruction OF (on/about) these matters"?) "How did these men practise concealment?" "And what sort of clothes did they wear at the time?" Tuppence-ha'penny worth from the Land of the Big Dry! Clive. On 05/11/2007, at 7:43 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: I appreciate what you have pointed out to me, it is good, thanks to you. Now I've one (more?) question: I'd like to learn more about those men whom they called "tonweyapi" (scouts, spys) in former times, and where can I look for it or find (smth.)? (I'm not sure with the following): ?? What I want (a) lesson (of), how(??) did these men hide (keep secret) then (toksha?? = toske??)? And what clothing did they wear? Alfred (my tuppence) Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Be a friend... Help support the Lakota Communities on Pine Ridge, go to: http://FriendsofPineRidgeReservation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 6 02:52:56 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:52:56 -0600 Subject: sunflowers Message-ID: All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 09:57:13 2007 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:57:13 -0800 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Osage miihtoNeli is miiN 'sun' + toNpe truncated to toNe ' look at, see, watch' + al? 'return here' Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 6 14:08:51 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:08:51 -0600 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BOB, Grandma Elizabeth Stabler's lexicon notes sunflower as "zha'xtha zi" or "yellow blossom weed", I think. I will try to check the JOD slip file microfilm later this morning. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 11/05/2007 08:52 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BARudes at aol.com Tue Nov 6 14:19:55 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:19:55 EST Subject: sunflowers Message-ID: Bob, The Catawba word is 'nuNti:cak 'sunflower' ('nuNti: 'sun, moon' + cak 'touch'). Blair ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 6 15:02:57 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:02:57 -0600 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: Have several entries, starting with the one I was able to get from late Elders: x?moxra aw?dhe^uxra (flower + shifting + bloom). [aw?dhe as in the wind, tipi flaps] waxrathi ~ waxradhi (bloom + yellow) CURTIS. waxradhihunshje (sunflower root) uxradhi^e (bloom + yellow + those (that)) MAXIMILLAN ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Cc: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu ; siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 8:08 AM Subject: Re: sunflowers BOB, Grandma Elizabeth Stabler's lexicon notes sunflower as "zha'xtha zi" or "yellow blossom weed", I think. I will try to check the JOD slip file microfilm later this morning. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland ONska abthiN! Thi shti? "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 11/05/2007 08:52 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject sunflowers All, I've had an enquriy from an archaeologist at Florida State U. about the words for 'sunflower' (Helianthus). The comparative dictionary lacks any general term for the plant or its flower although there is a cognate set for its root, which was eaten. The archaeologists are interested in the seeds and the domestication of same. They're trying to determine whether the terms are similar in North America and Mexico, as there is some question whether Mexican and northern domestication of the seed plant were independent developments. As far as I can tell there is virtually no uniformity across Siouan. Here is what I have thus far: Hidatsa: ma:pha: 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Mandan: ma?pe? 'day+flower' or 'morning flower' Dakota: waxcazi thaNka 'flower+yellow big' Kansa: mittogaxle 'sunflower' mi 'sun+?' Osage: miihtoNeli 'sunflower' mii 'sun+?', also xlazi 'flower+yellow' in term for August. Ofo: i:la akikcehi 'sun+flower' possibly calqued from English? Does any one of you have additional terms? We ought to be able to find words in Crow, Ioway-Otoe, Omaha-Ponca and Winnebago-Hocank at least. Since probably every one of the above terms is simply descriptive, it seems likely that they won't find matches with any Mexican words. Any additional help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 15:23:04 2007 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:23:04 -0800 Subject: sunflowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Blair, Interesting the possible Catawba correlates with Biloxi: naoNde, 'today' (related to Catawba 'sun, moon'?) and cake, 'hand' (related to Catawba 'touch'?) The D-S Biloxi dict has no entry, by the way, for sunflower. Dave BARudes at aol.com wrote: Bob, The Catawba word is 'nuNti:cak 'sunflower' ('nuNti: 'sun, moon' + cak 'touch'). Blair --------------------------------- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Nov 6 16:38:56 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:38:56 -0600 Subject: sunflowers MORE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, >>From JOD reel 2 frame 83 zha a genus including all yellow flowering plants as the artichokes & sunflowers, etc 2.84 zhaxthazi The yellow flowers of the different species of the "zha" genus, including the sunflowers (Om.Soc.283). Not the regular sunflower of the prairie, but a shorter plant which matures in September (George Miller) Om.Soc.283 ...The time for the return [from the te une buffalo hunt] was when the wind blew open the "jaqcashi," the sunflowers and the flowers of other species of the "ja," which was about the first of September. >>From Gilmore's Uses of Plants... p. 78 Helianthus annus L. Sunflower zhazi (Omaha-Ponca) "yellow wee" Gilmore includes the Dakdota and Pawnee terms which I will not try to render in email script. Uthighide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Fri Nov 9 22:20:10 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:20:10 -0600 Subject: Coming to SSILA Message-ID: Hi Siouanists: I am coming to SSILA in Chicago (Jan 2-6), and I made a reservation at the Palmer House Hilton. I wanted to know if any of you were interested in sharing a room with me. Best, Willem de Reuse From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 13 15:04:03 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:04:03 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. Message-ID: Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill From linguista at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 19:21:50 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:21:50 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please do not take my silence on dates as disinterest. My summer is a big unknown at this point, as is my autumn thereafter, so I have nothing productive to offer to this discussion. I think all the dates are great! - Bryan James Gordon 2007/11/13, Rankin, Robert L : > Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. > > ________________________________ > > From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] > Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM > To: Rankin, Robert L > Subject: Re: Report from MALC. > > > > Hi, Bob, > I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). > > First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) > > I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! > > Best, > Jill > > > > From rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 13 22:00:59 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:00:59 -0500 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A date before June 1 would work best for me. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 8:04 am Subject: 2008 MALC. Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 13 22:12:09 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:09 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. Message-ID: I think pretty much any time in May or June will be ok for me - at least no obvious conflicts that I know of yet. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 11/13/2007 9:04 AM >>> Forwarded from Jill Greer. She would like input on possible dates in May/June. B. ________________________________ From: Jill Greer [mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Mon 11/12/2007 2:55 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: Report from MALC. Hi, Bob, I wanted to thank you again for organizing the Siouan sessions in Lawrence - and for the wonderful evening at your home, especially. It was a good conference. And speaking of conferences, I am happy to extend a warm Missouri invitation for all you Siouanists next summer. I am told that all I need to do is reserve a room, and we are good to go (as long as I do the work...). First, I suppose we need to set a date. We have a hiatus between spring and summer from May 19 - May 31. Since the Memorial Day weekend is a bad weekend to be traveling, perhaps we should rule that time out? I would like to get some feedback about preferences. (Early June is okay too, but classes will be back in session then.) I can't believe I am doing this - but it will be fun! Best, Jill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Nov 16 16:13:25 2007 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:13:25 -0600 Subject: 2008 MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha All, I will be teaching a pre-session summer course immediately after spring semester. I would not have a free weekend until June 14-15 which is also Father's Day and Flag Day. Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardisrachel at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 09:29:47 2007 From: ardisrachel at gmail.com (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:29:47 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > All: > > I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid > America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number > of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers > from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas > Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the > organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. > > As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone > was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the > dates, etc. for that. > > Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the > conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite > close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be > contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her > institution. > > John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we > look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. > > In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, > we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda > Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. > grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over > now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This > means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their > promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to > Linda. > > And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite > a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all > since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal > enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology > is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly > cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly > cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of > it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I > can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the > prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) > > It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We > missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an > excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope > to see more of. > > Wiblahan everyone, > > Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 20 09:43:52 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:43:52 +0000 Subject: Report from MALC. In-Reply-To: <6e9927690711200129wc254cceled79b24f594fdc96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Congratulations to Ardis on the Flying Hawk. Nice name Bruce Ardis Eschenberg wrote: Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: All: I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the dates, etc. for that. Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her institution. John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to Linda. And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope to see more of. Wiblahan everyone, Bob --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 20 22:08:23 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:08:23 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. Message-ID: Ardis! You're alive!! Actually, I've been at least as bad as you about keeping in touch, and with less of an excuse. It's been a ridiculously busy semester, but still... We are heading for Wisconsin tomorrow morning. Then there will be just another 3 or 4 weekends before we disappear for the semester. What's your schedule like? I'd really like to get together sometime. I still have that cd I made for Mrs. Clay's sisters, among other things - I was hoping to get the transcription closer to finished, but that's probably not going to happen this month, so I might as well just bring it to you as is. It would be good just to see you, too. Are you definitely teaching the linguistics course here spring semester? It's got a dozen students signed up but no instructor listed officially... I know Alan was putting off calling you, at one point, till he'd have an idea whether the class was going to make or not. But by this time hopefully he has. Happy Thanksgiving to the whole family! Catherine >>> "Ardis Eschenberg" 11/20/2007 3:29 AM >>> Hmmm... I am just catching up on linguistic email. I guess I should report the birth of my newest Siouanist, who helped prevent me from attending MALC. CetaN KiNyaN Solomon Bad Moccasin 10 lbs. 1 oz. 23" 8-29-07 He's still huge; everything goes well. sorry to clog mailboxes with clutter about personal things. Hope to attend MALC this spring. The only truly bad weekend this spring is May 17th (our graduation ceremonies). Kind regards, Ardis Ardis Bad Moccasin, PhD Academic Dean Nebraska Indian Community College (402) 837-5078 On Oct 29, 2007 9:39 AM, Rankin, Robert L wrote: All: I hope everyone agrees that the rather impromptu meeting with the Mid America Linguistics Conference in Lawrence was a success. We had a number of very nice papers and it was, for me at least, a lot of fun. The papers from the conference will appear at some point on the University of Kansas Linguistics Dept. website in the KU Working Papers series. I'm assuming the organizers will communicate deadlines, style, etc. As for future meetings of the "real" SACC (= SCLC or whatever), everyone was enthusiastic about Mark's proposal for 2009, and he is working out the dates, etc. for that. Jill Greer at Missouri Southern State Univ. in Joplin proposed hosting the conference this coming year, 2008, sometime in May or June. This is quite close to the Quapaw population in NE Oklahoma. I assume she will be contacting us with additional information if she gets agreement from her institution. John Boyle offered to host the 2010 meeting at his institution, and we look forward to hearing more about that as time goes on. In response to Johannes' question about the comparative grammar project, we discussed this a bit and I think everyone is eager to continue it. Linda Cumberland, our designated editor, was fully occupied with her D.E.L. grant for work with her Assiniboine texts this past year, but that is over now and she has returned to her work with Justin at the Kaw Nation. This means that people like me, who have been a bit lazy about revising their promised papers, will need to get busy and think about getting material to Linda. And speaking of my comparative verb morphology paper, although I did quite a bit of revision on my verbal prefix paper last Winter (and nothing at all since), I have about decided that the companion piece on post-verbal enclitics should be more of a co-authored work. The post verbal morphology is so complex in the various languages, and so little of it is clearly cognate from group to group (as opposed to the prefixes, which are regularly cognate), that it would be best if each of us wrote up a (short?) survey of it for his/her language. I'd be happy to work whatever comparative magic I can on the results, but there will be far less cognacy than among the prefixes. (So the results should be all the more "interesting".) It was great fun seeing everybody again and hearing new research. We missed some old friends that we hope to see again next Spring, and we had an excellent new contribution from one of John Boyle's students, whom we hope to see more of. Wiblahan everyone, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Nov 20 22:16:28 2007 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:16:28 -0600 Subject: Report from MALC. Message-ID: AHHH! I'm sorry - I do this too often. When an email says it is from a specific person it seems like hitting "reply" (and NOT "reply to all") should send one's response to just that person, not the whole list ... is there any way the system can be tweaked so idiots like me are less likely to annoy everyone with our personal mail? Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Nov 20 23:44:42 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:44:42 -0600 Subject: sunflower terms Message-ID: Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Our results are in the attached Word document. Occasionally non-Microsoft email servers convert these documents into unreadable "winmail.dat" files that cannot be opened. If this should happen, let me know and I'll resend the document via another account. Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu] Sent: Mon 11/5/2007 2:47 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: sunflower terms Dear Dr. Rankin, My colleague Nick Hopkins suggested that I contact you to get indigenous terms for sunflower. I would like to get some representative terms from the middle Mississippi valley where sunflower was evidently domesticated in North America (such as Mandan) as well as southeast Muskogean representative terms. It would be helpful if you could provide me with the indigenous terms and their translations as well. The reason I am asking is that working in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico near the site of La Venta, we excavated remains of sunflower dating to ca. 2600 B.C. Evidently sunflower was independently domesticated in Mexico; that is our argument. Paleoethnobotanist David Lentz has collected indigenous Mexican terms for sunflower. We would like to see whether they are distinct from terms used in North America. If they are distinct, this fact would be one supporting line of evidence for our hypothesis that there were two domestications of sunflower. Thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely yours, Mary Pohl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sunflower.doc Type: application/msword Size: 31232 bytes Desc: sunflower.doc URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Mon Nov 26 22:40:28 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:40:28 -0600 Subject: John Koontz e-mail address Message-ID: Hi all: Does John Koontz have a new e-mail address? I have been trying to send him personal e-mail, unsuccessfully. Best, Willem de Reuse From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 27 00:56:21 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:56:21 -0600 Subject: John Koontz e-mail address In-Reply-To: <20071126164028.tlbf3oezvngg8wgg@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've had the same experience. It is very quiet over in his direction. Can someone comment, of course, preferably, John himself. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:40 PM Subject: John Koontz e-mail address > Hi all: > > Does John Koontz have a new e-mail address? I have been trying to send him > personal e-mail, unsuccessfully. > > Best, > > Willem de Reuse > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Tue Nov 27 16:34:28 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:34:28 -0600 Subject: Fw: language Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Benabe To: Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM Subject: language http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 8 Tribal language fading away by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer 11/26/2007 1:37 AM Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes. ANADARKO -- Oklahoma had been a state for only two decades when Doris Jean Lamar was born in 1927. Her first spoken words were not English, but an American Indian language taught to her by grandparents. Today, Lamar is the last fluent speaker in the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes, a tribe of 2,300. Sitting in a tribal canteen that she supervises, the 80-year-old Lamar carries a language that once was spoken by thousands, then hundreds of Wichita language speakers. "I never thought I would be in this position as a girl, to be our last fluent speaker," she said. Wichita is one of the languages classified as Caddoan, but is only similar in stock to the Caddo language, scholars said. Lamar's tribe is one of a handful indigenous to Oklahoma with a present-day jurisdiction in Caddo County. Lamar's journey was not unlike other girls in southwest Oklahoma in the years right before the Great Depression. Her full-blood maternal grandparents worked a farm and raised their grandchildren. She recalls fewer cars, more thriftiness and no electricity back then. With a white father and an Indian mother, Lamar stood out among her peers. "I never thought of myself as white; to me, I was Wichita," she said. "The old ladies of our tribe thought it was something to hear this little white girl speak Wichita." She eventually married a non-Indian and had children. After she divorced in 1959, she moved back among her Indian relatives near Gracemont. She continued to speak Wichita as she did as a girl. "Ever since I could remember, I spoke Wichita," she said. "My husband told me that me speaking Indian was the only time he remembered I was Indian." Around 1962, Lamar met an earnest young linguist who followed tribal members in order to listen to them speak, she recalled. That young linguist was David Rood from the University of Colorado. Rood has been working with the Wichitas since he stumbled upon the Indian language while looking for one that was not being preserved, he said. He still works with Lamar and other tribal members. They race to record the Wichita language so that a dictionary can be gleaned. They have spent hours going over Wichita words and compiling language CDs on creation stories, verbs, nouns and names. Defining tribal fluency can be tricky, Rood said. In small tribes, debates exist over who qualifies as a fluent speaker. Lamar speaks some Wichita with another tribal member who labors with the language. "She tells me there are so many words in her head that she can't get out, she gets frustrated," Lamar said. Speaking and writing the language are key. Sometimes tribal members know ceremonial songs by heart. Yet linguists think fluency is more complicated than that. "I would say when somebody is able to speak the language in a way that has never been spoken before or ever written in a language book . . . as an abstract thought, then that is fluency," Rood said. The linguist tried to organize a conversation among the last few fluent Wichita speakers in the early 2000s, he said. He regards the exercise as a half-success. But the gathering was stilted because of political differences among the speakers. "Which is typical in almost all Indian tribes," he said of tribal political factions. "They spoke a little, but not much." Hope exists for the Wichitas' dying language. An immersion class for children has been soldiering forward, as is an adult-oriented language class, both subsidized by fed eral grants. But the Wichitas must cross another obstacle of language revitalization: retention. Sam Still, a Cherokee speaker, said retention among adults and children remains low if the language is not already spoken in the home. "For children, when they have no one at home to speak the language with, there is no one to practice the sounds with and they lose it," Still said. "When you're around the language, you learn it better." Meanwhile, Lamar fishes a small recorder out of her pocket and turns it on. She speaks English words first, then the Wichita word follows. "I have been doing this a lot, lately," she said, pressing play. "I just put whatever words pop into my head." The tribal elder is aware that her language hangs on the precipice. She remembers the time when everyone around her spoke Wichita. Now, none of her children speak more than a few words, she said. "They live in the white world," she said. "I don't." S.E. Ruckman 581-8462 se.ruckman at tulsaworld.com ***** Fluent, but for how long? Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: Chirachua Apache Osage Otoe Ottawa Plains Apache Quapaw Wichita Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: Alabama Cayuga Delaware (Lenape) Hitchiti, Mikasuki Kaw (Kansa) Kitsai Koasati Mesquakie (Fox) Miami, Peoria Modoc Natchez Seneca Tonkawa Wyandotte -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at aol.com Tue Nov 27 21:59:07 2007 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:59:07 -0500 Subject: sunflower terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had trouble finding a Crow term for 'sunflower'.? One woman volunteered baauhpashi'ile (baa 'indefinite' + uhpa' 'upper end' + shi'ile 'yellow').? I asked half a dozen other people, and none knew a word for sunflower.? So it certainly is not in common usage.? One volunteered a term for sunflower seeds: baachiche'essaawaaluusuua (baa 'indefinite' + chicheessaa 'lonesome' + baa 'indefinite' + duusuua 'eat') 'the food you eat when you're lonesome'!? Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L To: Mary Pohl Cc: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 4:44 pm Subject: RE: sunflower terms Hi Mary, I polled the group of scholars on the Siouan list for sunflower terms. The terms do not match across the language family and are overwhelmingly descriptive. In most cases it is something like 'yellow flower' or 'flower follows the sun', that sort of thing. I'm afraid this isn't very helpful for the sort of thing you're looking for. I'll check a little further and see about the term for sunflower seed. There is a generalized term for things like melon or pumpkin/squash seeds that may extend to the sunflower. It is generally something like [mantte]. Does that ring any bells? Our results are in the attached Word document. Occasionally non-Microsoft email servers convert these documents into unreadable "winmail.dat" files that cannot be opened. If this should happen, let me know and I'll resend the document via another account. Good luck with your study. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: Mary Pohl [mailto:mpohl at mailer.fsu.edu] Sent: Mon 11/5/2007 2:47 PM To: Rankin, Robert L Subject: sunflower terms Dear Dr. Rankin, My colleague Nick Hopkins suggested that I contact you to get indigenous terms for sunflower. I would like to get some representative terms from the middle Mississippi valley where sunflower was evidently domesticated in North America (such as Mandan) as well as southeast Muskogean representative terms. It would be helpful if you could provide me with the indigenous terms and their translations as well. The reason I am asking is that working in the Gulf Coast region of Mexico near the site of La Venta, we excavated remains of sunflower dating to ca. 2600 B.C. Evidently sunflower was independently domesticated in Mexico; that is our argument. Paleoethnobotanist David Lentz has collected indigenous Mexican terms for sunflower. We would like to see whether they are distinct from terms used in North America. If they are distinct, this fact would be one supporting line of evidence for our hypothesis that there were two domestications of sunflower. Thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely yours, Mary Pohl ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Tue Nov 27 22:30:28 2007 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:30:28 -0700 Subject: sunflower terms In-Reply-To: <8C9FF57DE44E8DF-7FC-2B15@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Did you try Alma Snell? She has her new Crow botany book out. A Taste of Heritage: Crow Indian Recipes and Herbal Medicines (Paperback) by Alma Hogan Snell (Author) "Food is something I seem destined to care about..." (more) Key Phrases: Pretty Shield, Fort Belknap, Editor's Note (more...) http://www.grannysstore.com/Nature_Wildlife/Alma_Hogan_Snell.htm Sorry to not track your sunflower search that well. Mandan for sunflower is [w?p? ?s?rre] Cf. w?p?, sreh sunflower plant is w?p? Billy Maxwell On Nov 27, 2007, at 2:59 PM, rgraczyk at aol.com wrote: > I had trouble finding a Crow term for 'sunflower'.? One woman > volunteered baauhpashi'ile (baa 'indefinite' + uhpa' 'upper end' + > shi'ile 'yellow').? I asked half a dozen other people, and none knew a > word for sunflower.? So it certainly is not in common usage.? One > volunteered a term for sunflower seeds: baachiche'essaawaaluusuua (baa > 'indefinite' + chicheessaa 'lonesome' + baa 'indefinite' + duusuua > 'eat') 'the food you eat when you're lonesome'!? > Randy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1173 bytes Desc: not available URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Nov 27 22:50:44 2007 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:50:44 -0600 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: <6A62C5359B1647EC9D9917F0FE3826E1@JGHP> Message-ID: Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico.) Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Benabe > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM > Subject: language > > > http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 > 8 > > Tribal language fading away > > by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer > 11/26/2007 1:37 AM > > Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated > Tribes. > > (...)> > ***** > > Fluent, but for how long? > > Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: > > Chirachua Apache > Osage > Otoe > Ottawa > Plains Apache > Quapaw > Wichita > > Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: > > Alabama > Cayuga > Delaware (Lenape) > Hitchiti, Mikasuki > Kaw (Kansa) > Kitsai > Koasati > Mesquakie (Fox) > Miami, Peoria > Modoc > Natchez > Seneca > Tonkawa > Wyandotte > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Tue Nov 27 23:16:47 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:16:47 -0700 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: <20071127165044.cp3c3l5boo8o088s@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Tue Nov 27 23:28:47 2007 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:28:47 -0800 Subject: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the compilers of this list meant *Oklahoma* languages, since that's the only way this list makes any sense. Ottawa has way more than five speakers up in Canada, and outside Oklahoma, Alabama, Cayuga, Mikasuki, Koasati, Mesquakie, and Seneca are definitely *not* extinct. David >>> Fluent, but for how long? >>> >>> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >>> >>> Chirachua Apache >>> Osage >>> Otoe >>> Ottawa >>> Plains Apache >>> Quapaw >>> Wichita >>> >>> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >>> >>> Alabama >>> Cayuga >>> Delaware (Lenape) >>> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >>> Kaw (Kansa) >>> Kitsai >>> Koasati >>> Mesquakie (Fox) >>> Miami, Peoria >>> Modoc >>> Natchez >>> Seneca >>> Tonkawa >>> Wyandotte >>> >> >> From jurga at ou.edu Wed Nov 28 00:13:53 2007 From: jurga at ou.edu (Saltanaviciute, Jurgita) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:13:53 -0600 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It looks to me like the list of languages in the article was the one compiled by the Intertribal Wordpath Society, http://www.ahalenia.com/iws/status.html, and yes, it addresses only Oklahoma languages. Interesting description of language fluency. It made me doubt if I know even my native Lithuanian, because whatever I say in it has been said by somebody else or can be as easily said by somebody else. Also, interesting to know that a newspaper has a policy not to show the draft article to the person about who they write. My experience has been that I get sent the drafts of articles or scripts for final editing. Cautions one about working with the media! Jurgita Saltanaviciute, M.A. Department of Anthropology University of Oklahoma Norman, OK 73019 http:www.sitekreator.com/jurga ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: language Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 28 01:18:18 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:18:18 -0600 Subject: Fw: language Message-ID: Willem's caveat applies to Quapaw and Osage also. I think the problem may well rest in different definitions of fluency. After all the speakers who could converse easily about novel topics are gone, it is common to find persons who know a long list of vocabulary items described as "knowing" the language. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of willemdereuse at unt.edu Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 4:50 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; Jimm GoodTracks Cc: iowaysonline at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Fw: language Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico.) Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Benabe > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM > Subject: language > > > http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 > 8 > > Tribal language fading away > > by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer > 11/26/2007 1:37 AM > > Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated > Tribes. > > (...)> > ***** > > Fluent, but for how long? > > Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: > > Chirachua Apache > Osage > Otoe > Ottawa > Plains Apache > Quapaw > Wichita > > Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: > > Alabama > Cayuga > Delaware (Lenape) > Hitchiti, Mikasuki > Kaw (Kansa) > Kitsai > Koasati > Mesquakie (Fox) > Miami, Peoria > Modoc > Natchez > Seneca > Tonkawa > Wyandotte > From rankin at ku.edu Wed Nov 28 01:31:48 2007 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:31:48 -0600 Subject: RE language Message-ID: For what it's worth, after several bad experiences being misquoted and/or misinterpreted by reporters, I have taken to drafting written answers to all the questions asked by each reporter and emailing my summary to them immediately after the interview. I try to get it to them before their publishing deadline so that they can quote me precisely if they want to. It's an old lawyers' trick. -- Write your briefs so that the judge can quote them without thinking for himself. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 5:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fw: language Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition she deserves. I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. > > Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning > Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there > are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more > than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New > Mexico.) > > Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pat Benabe >> To: Jimm Goodtracks >> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >> Subject: language >> >> >> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >> 8 >> >> Tribal language fading away >> >> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >> >> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >> Tribes. >> >> (...)> >> ***** >> >> Fluent, but for how long? >> >> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >> >> Chirachua Apache >> Osage >> Otoe >> Ottawa >> Plains Apache >> Quapaw >> Wichita >> >> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >> >> Alabama >> Cayuga >> Delaware (Lenape) >> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >> Kaw (Kansa) >> Kitsai >> Koasati >> Mesquakie (Fox) >> Miami, Peoria >> Modoc >> Natchez >> Seneca >> Tonkawa >> Wyandotte >> > > From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 28 15:43:46 2007 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:43:46 -0700 Subject: Fw: language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Saltanaviciute, Jurgita wrote: > > Interesting description of language fluency. It made me doubt if I know > even my native Lithuanian, because whatever I say in it has been said by > somebody else or can be as easily said by somebody else. Aha! The crucial part of your statement is "or can be as easily said by somebody else". That's part of the difference between a living language and one that's moribund. YOu and many other people know not only the vocabulary of the language but also its grammatical rules; you can assemble the pieces in novel ways. People who are trying to revive moribund languages often have only the vocabulary and not the tools for making up new statements, and no matter how many words or phrases they learn, the possibility of being creative will be missing. > > > Just a bit of caution about this article. The reporter is herself > Wichita, though of course not a speaker, and she did indeed interview me. > I asked her if I could see the article before it was published but she > said that was against newspaper policy, so, of course, I am somewhat > misquoted. My cliched description of language knowledge doesn't have > anything to do with "how" one talks. What I like to say is "You don't know > a language until you can say things that you have never heard anyone else > say." Other than that, I think her portrayal of Doris is very sensitive > and accurate, and I'm pleased to see Doris getting the kind of recognition > she deserves. > > I have no idea where those lists of languages at the end came from, but I > agree with Willem that one should be careful about citing it. > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > >> Interesting article. Thank you Jimm. I hope David Rood comments as well. >> >> Caution about the lists of Oklahoma languages at the end. Concerning >> Chiricahua Apache, among others. I have it from a reliable source that there >> are no fluent speakers of Chiricahua in Oklahoma. (There might well be more >> than 10 fluent speakers of Chiricahua on the Mescalero Reservation in New >> Mexico.) >> >> Quoting Jimm GoodTracks : >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Pat Benabe >>> To: Jimm Goodtracks >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:56 AM >>> Subject: language >>> >>> >>> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071126_1_A1_ahref1651 >>> 8 >>> >>> Tribal language fading away >>> >>> by: SE RUCKMAN, World Staff Writer >>> 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >>> >>> Doris Jean Lamar is the last fluent speaker of the Wichita and Affiliated >>> Tribes. >>> >>> (...)> >>> ***** >>> >>> Fluent, but for how long? >>> >>> Indian languages with fewer than five fluent speakers: >>> >>> Chirachua Apache >>> Osage >>> Otoe >>> Ottawa >>> Plains Apache >>> Quapaw >>> Wichita >>> >>> Indian languages with zero remaining fluent speakers: >>> >>> Alabama >>> Cayuga >>> Delaware (Lenape) >>> Hitchiti, Mikasuki >>> Kaw (Kansa) >>> Kitsai >>> Koasati >>> Mesquakie (Fox) >>> Miami, Peoria >>> Modoc >>> Natchez >>> Seneca >>> Tonkawa >>> Wyandotte >>> >> >> > From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 28 16:33:57 2007 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:33:57 -0700 Subject: Reports of My Inactivity Are More or Less on Target Message-ID: Since folks are wondering about me, I wanted to let people know that I am well. Just somewhat inactive linguistically. I'll try to do something about that! John E. Koontz http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Nov 29 17:18:24 2007 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:18:24 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN Message-ID: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:33:38 2007 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan Gordon) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:33:38 -0600 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: <3526C1D169C04BB7BFFF96AFE33D5995@JGHP> Message-ID: It often happens that a language doesn't have a concept that another language does happen. This doesn't necessarily mean that the concept is "not important" to the culture, but it does mean that in past historical time the concept was unimportant enough not to develop a concept word. People create new concepts all the time, though, and they often invent words for them. We invent words in English so often it makes our heads spin. When they brought Hebrew back from the grave, they took hundreds of words for things that hadn't existed in 2000 years, and twisted them into words for things that exist now. Both of these - the English way and the Hebrew way - are possible ways to come up with words for new concepts. In terms of the particular concept in question, an interesting strategy would be this (assuming that there are no fluent speakers to ask): a) Look at the words you want to tie to this concept, like "feels good" "feels helpless" "hurt one's feelings". What do they have in common? Likely some of them but not all have some stem or pattern in common. b) Look at other concepts in the language. How are they formed from similar stems and patterns? c) Use something similar. This way you avoid having too much English borrowing by using stems and patterns that come from the same language. The French had no word for "email", so they invented one based on words they already had: "courier ?lectronique", or the abbreviation "courriel". Of course most people say "e-mail" anyway. But who knows? "Courriel" could catch on eventually. Of course it's much easier to "force" a word to catch on when it's only a few people you have to convince instead of hundreds of millions. Look at umbrella concept words we already have. "Furniture" is a weird word if you think about it. It describes a bunch of wood and upholstery constructs that seat either your food, your things or your tush. Languages closely related to English have no word like this. German says "M?bel" which is a word for a single piece of furniture, not for the concept as a whole. Clearly "M?bel" which comes from "mobile" (furniture is more mobile than larger wood constructs like houses for instance) is not even similar to "furniture", which comes from "furnish". At some point in the past someone who spoke English or Norman French decided that they needed a word to unite chairs, shelves and tables, and they decided to use a variant of a verb that meant "provide" or "accomplish" at the time. They must have thought of furniture as things you "provide" to the interior of your dwelling, or as things which "provide" surfaces to get stuff done, or something like that. We may never know. But that's the way this stuff works. There's also nothing wrong with pulling a concept word out of left field like "furniture" from "provide". "Feelings" in English is the same thing: sadness and hope have little to do with "feeling" something with your fingers, but that's where the word comes from anyway. It doesn't have to be the same in every other language. A good idea I just came up with is "mouth-shapes" to reflect how feelings show up on our mouths. All languages are free to do whatever they want. Note: this kind of "tinkering" with a language is seen by some people as "tampering" and really irks them! There's a common philosophy that the way the most conservative speakers speak a language, or the way the last fluent speakers spoke the language if there are none, is the only right way. But living languages are NEVER spoken the same way by all generations. When they brought Hebrew back from the dead, many people were quaking with anger at how the holy words were being used to describe everyday modern life and how they weren't "the same" as the original words. But language doesn't stay the same if it needs to stay alive. "Tinkering" is an important way to have what you call "mature conversation in any language", Jimm. In terms of your question whether it's not worthy of discussion, of course it is! In terms of your question whether it's a legitimate concern: that depends on who's concerned. If the people using the language want to have a word for a concept, they need to create one. If they have this desire, then it's a legitimate concern. What are other people's thoughts on tinkering? Thanks for this Jimm: it's good to think of languages as living things being revitalised every now and then instead of the usual view in linguistics of stale objects to be described and studied! 2007/11/29, Jimm GoodTracks : > > > First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff > as we all do. > > Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are > words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that > can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, > sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" > and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). > But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for > "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I > have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, > Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the > subject of Abstract Notions. > > Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. > > I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike > the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they > are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. > Jimm > > From BARudes at aol.com Fri Nov 30 02:47:05 2007 From: BARudes at aol.com (Blair Rudes) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:47:05 EST Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/2007 12:23:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goodtracks at peoplepc.com writes: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm Jimm, Abstract notions are absolutely a legitimate concern and an all to often overlooked one. One difficulty is that discovering the terms for abstract notions for a non-native speaker often requires abandoning preconceived notions of what those terms should be. In English and the languages of other Indo-European cultures, there is a metaphoric association of emotions with physical sensations. Thus, the use of the term ?feelings? for emotions. In other cultures, emotions are associated with non-physical phenomena of cognition. For example in the Tuscarora language (and other Northern Iroquoian languages), emotions belong to the ?class? of phenomena that are ?classified? by the abstract noun root -?tikeNhr- ?mind? (-?nikuhr- in Mohawk, -?nikuhl- in Oneida, -?nikoNhR- in Seneca, Cayuga, and Mohawk). If you look at any dictionary of an Iroquoian language, you will find that terms incorporating the noun root for ?mind? refer to thinking, believing, and (emotional) feeling. In addition, the verb stems that incorporate the noun root for ?mind? also include ?states-of-being? that would be considered in Western culture to be physical conditions. As one example, I once asked Marjorie (Marge) Printup ? a fluent speaker of Tuscarora who has since passed away ? how to translate the expression ?drug-free? into Tuscarora. She responded with the word ka?tikeNhran`ureN?, which literally means ?a precious mind?. I have not specifically looked at the Catawba data for such abstract notions, but nothing comes to mind. But of course the data on Catawba are very limited, not only in quantity but in what the researchers thought to ask about. If I run across any relevant information, I will post it on the list. Blair **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 30 10:22:20 2007 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:22:20 +0000 Subject: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) + JOHN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: True abstract notions are difficult to sort out. In Lakota I note that I have a word woableze 'perception' and would think that ableza 'to perceive, understand' could stand for 'feel' as well'. The word slolya 'know, experience' also comes near to it as in teh^i slolya 'experience difficulties, have a hard time'. Often as you note there is a specific word for things like 'feel sad', feel happy' sometimes involving chante 'heart' obviously in Lakota the seat of emotions. So one finds chante s^ica 'feel sad', chante was^te 'feel happy'. The word thawacin is also often translated 'feelings, emotions' though I can't think how it could be used in a sentence. I would love to know what other Lakotanists think might stand for 'feel, feelings'. Bruce BARudes at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/29/2007 12:23:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goodtracks at peoplepc.com writes: First, the word is that John is well and attending to every day life stuff as we all do. Second, I got to thinking about the word "Feelings". In IOM, there are words for "feel" as in touch; there are also words, often adjectives that can be rendered as intransitive (stative) verbs, i.e., feel ... (good, bad, sick, helpless, angry, relieved, ignored). I have "hurt someone's feelings" and "feel like...(whatever...sleep, standing, speaking). But a word for the genre, I find nothing. I looked up cognate languages for "feelings" and what little I found, tend to give results similar to what I have in IOM. I looked in Johannes' Hochank, Carolyn's Osage, Mark's Omaha, Buechel's Lakota and Williamson's Dakota. Noone seems to take up the subject of Abstract Notions. Maybe it is not worthy of discussion, or not a legitimate concern. I dont recall that the list has had discussions on abstract notions. Unlike the nouns of material stubstance, they tend to be a bit elusive. But they are indispensible to mature conversation in any language. Jimm Jimm, Abstract notions are absolutely a legitimate concern and an all to often overlooked one. One difficulty is that discovering the terms for abstract notions for a non-native speaker often requires abandoning preconceived notions of what those terms should be. In English and the languages of other Indo-European cultures, there is a metaphoric association of emotions with physical sensations. Thus, the use of the term ???feelings??? for emotions. In other cultures, emotions are associated with non-physical phenomena of cognition. For example in the Tuscarora language (and other Northern Iroquoian languages), emotions belong to the ???class??? of phenomena that are ???classified??? by the abstract noun root -?tikeNhr- ???mind??? (-?nikuhr- in Mohawk, -?nikuhl- in Oneida, -?nikoNhR- in Seneca, Cayuga, and Mohawk). If you look at any dictionary of an Iroquoian language, you will find that terms incorporating the noun root for ???mind??? refer to thinking, believing, and (emotional) feeling. In addition, the verb stems that incorporate the noun root for ???mind??? also include ???states-of-being??? that would be considered in Western culture to be physical conditions. As one example, I once asked Marjorie (Marge) Printup ??? a fluent speaker of Tuscarora who has since passed away ??? how to translate the expression ???drug-free??? into Tuscarora. She responded with the word ka?tikeNhran`ureN?, which literally means ???a precious mind???. I have not specifically looked at the Catawba data for such abstract notions, but nothing comes to mind. But of course the data on Catawba are very limited, not only in quantity but in what the researchers thought to ask about. If I run across any relevant information, I will post it on the list. Blair --------------------------------- Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007. --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: