From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 7 20:57:48 2008 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:57:48 -0600 Subject: Status of Siouan List Message-ID: Apart from any neglect on my part, I regret to report that the Siouan List is experiencing difficulties due to problems with the home site's list processor. I am informed that a solution is impending. You may or may not see this message before a full solution is in effect. I deeply regret the inconvenience of the list being offline and largely unattended anyway over the past year. John E. Koontz From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Apr 7 21:47:25 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:47:25 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John, for the update. I was fearful that perhaps no one was planning to attend the Siouan Conference this summer at my institution because no one has submitted any papers yet! I do have addresses for those who responded to my original request for dates, but I hate to leave anyone else out. Any suggestions? Jill Greer >>> Koontz John E 4/7/2008 3:57 PM >>> Apart from any neglect on my part, I regret to report that the Siouan List is experiencing difficulties due to problems with the home site's list processor. I am informed that a solution is impending. You may or may not see this message before a full solution is in effect. I deeply regret the inconvenience of the list being offline and largely unattended anyway over the past year. John E. Koontz From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 7 23:49:58 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:49:58 -0500 Subject: Death of Blair Rudes (from SSILA Newsletter) Message-ID: "It is with regret that we announce the recent passing of three SSILA colleagues. Emory Sekaquaptewa, the first recipient of SSILA's Ken Hale Prize, died December 13, 2007, at the age of 79. Eloise Jelinek, retired professor of linguistics at the University of Arizona, died in Tucson on December 21, 2007, after a long illness. And Blair Rudes, Associate Professor of English at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, died of a sudden heart attack on March 16, 2008. It also saddens us to note the passing of Marie Smith, the last speaker of Eyak; of Alfred Chalepah, Jr., the last fluent speaker of Plains Apache; and of Irving "Hap" McCue, for 33 years Lecturer in Ojibwe Language and Culture at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Full obituaries will appear in the next (double) issue of the SSILA Newsletter." From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Apr 8 20:40:49 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:40:49 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: v From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Apr 8 20:54:22 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:54:22 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, All! Just a friendly reminder that you are all invited to attend the Siouan Conference on June 20-21 at MSSU in beautiful Southwest Missouri (the fair city of Joplin to be exact). Deadline for submission of Abstracts is not far away - May 12th!! There will be an early-bird gathering on Thursday night, and sessions should run from 9-4 both Friday and Saturday. Papers can last 20 minutes, with 10 minutes for questions and discussion. Fun activities may include visiting the Quapaw Casino nearby (or other Tribal Gaming Establishments) Flights directly to Joplin are possible, but I suspect that Springfield/Branson, XNA (Fayetteville,Arkansas), or Tulsa airports are typically much more affordable, and each is about an hour from Joplin. I will post hotel information next time, as I have to go attend my Social Science Department meeting right now. Cordially yours, Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science Missouri Southern State University 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, Missouri 64801 (417) 625-9795 From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 21:11:41 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:11:41 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: <47FB921D.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: For what it is worth, This current post was Blank.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Status of Siouan List From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 8 21:45:08 2008 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:45:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan List Message-ID: The list was offline, it seems, from c. February 15, 2008 until yesterday. Bob Rankin finally realized what was happening, and contacted me at work to point it out. It appears that the problem with the list (and all lists supported by the U of Colorado List Processor) was that lists with subscribers from the domain yahoo.co.uk were not being distributed. I don't know the details, but hypothetically that domain is being banned by someone for some reason somewhere, causing mail with an address with that domain somewhere in its headers to be deleted somewhere in transit. I am told that the problem is being fixed, but I don't know the schedule for the fix. It turns out that we have one subscriber from that domain: Bruce Ingham. Once I extracted a description of the problem from the list service folks, and realized that we had only one subscriber with a problem address, I fixed our list by deleting Bruce. This is a temporary situation. I will add him back as soon as the problem is fixed. If you have any information on the problem, please feel free to contact me directly off list. I have explained to Bruce that he can read the list at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html so it is not necessary to send anything to him unless he should ask you to do so himself. For the moment, however, Bruce cannot write to the list without one of us posting for him. If you do this, please make sure that his address is not included in the mail (general email security considerations) or especially in the headers (in view of the current problem). In general, if you cross post something or send something to an address other than the List it's probably a good idea to do that in a separate mailing. That is, don't include addresses for several Lists in a single mailing. Than can easily get hairy if people are inattentive in replying. It's also not necessary to cc things to people who are on the list as you post to the list. I've occasionally seen that in the past. It just means that the person in question gets two copies of the item. I regret to report that it looks like anything sent to the list since February 15th (an exchange between Jimm Good Tracks and Louanna Furbee on Winnebago) has been lost. From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Apr 22 20:15:26 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:15:26 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Message-ID: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 22 21:31:37 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 22 22:02:45 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:02:45 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 01:53:03 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Apr 23 03:07:36 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:07:36 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, I am currently working on the converting the JOD slip file microfilm to digital images for our Ponca dictionary here. TML Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Aloha all, > > Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary > roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with > the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? > > Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally > alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. > > I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. > > WibthahoN > WagoNze Uthixide > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > Anthropology-Geography > Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Office: 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Apr 23 03:16:57 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:16:57 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, We are currently working on converting the JOD slip file microfilm over to a digital format for our Ponca dictionary here. TML Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Aloha all, > > Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary > roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with > the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? > > Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally > alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. > > I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. > > WibthahoN > WagoNze Uthixide > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > Anthropology-Geography > Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Office: 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 04:11:01 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:11:01 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: It's free, but keep reminding me if I procrastinate getting it to you! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Wed Apr 23 13:06:04 2008 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:06:04 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I was working on a 100+ page vocabulary of Catawba compiled from published sources before I retired 11 years ago, and would be interested in attending this roundtable session. However, I was born in America, and though I am a Canadian citizen with a valid Canadian passport, American law requires me to use an American passport within the US wherever a passport is required. The many Americans who resisted buying a passport last year to come to a scheduled Siouan Conference in Saskatoon, with the result that the conference was cancelled, will understand my reluctance to pay for a second passport so as to attend the Siouan Conference in Joplin. Paul Catherine Rudin wrote: > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and > Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper > issues of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > > (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a > brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in > touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: > carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations > scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren > Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and > Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory > Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. > Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or > dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be > appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per > project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. > > (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main > point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the > collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us > just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the > expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest > dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if > everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a > dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, > examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of > issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open > discussion portion of the session. > > Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. > Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). > > -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of > "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, > pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to > best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What > grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, > suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? > -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or > between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of > alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about > alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it > important to think about for various types of users (linguists, > tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) > -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? > -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: > what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about > linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper > dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. > printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field > structure is necessary in order to include all needed information > for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. > > Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing > your insights! Catherine > > > From carudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Apr 23 13:44:15 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:44:15 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 23 14:00:22 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:22 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Aho Bob! Wi shti! I would love a copy of your retranscriptions at your convenience. WibthahoN Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. "Catherine Rudin" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/23/2008 08:47 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 14:58:18 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:58:18 -0700 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I would like to participate in the roundtable. I'm working on a revised Biloxi dictionary, still very much in progress. I think this would be a good forum for discussion and ideas. Dave Kaufman Catherine Rudin wrote: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 23 15:04:04 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:04:04 -0600 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EAA29.6060609@cox.net> Message-ID: Hi, everyone, I want to alert you to the imminent publication of THE NEW LAKOTA DICTIONARY. It's at the publishers now, and should be ready for distribution some time in July. Description and sample pages are at http://www.lakhota.org/. That should provide some material for the round table to examine. Sadly, I also need to announce that I'm going to be absent from the meeting again this year. My wife has scheduled herself a trip to Europe for that week (to visit our daughter, who's working for the German government in Berlin), and as you all know by now, we have to have one person at home at all times. However, I've been working hard on a very complex Wichita phonology/morphology problem for the past few months, and maybe I'll have something to tell you about that next year. I miss the SACC meetings very much, and wish you all a good time. Best wishes to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 23 15:06:35 2008 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:06:35 -0400 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I'd like to present something on the Crow dictionary project. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 6:44 am Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 21:04:55 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:04:55 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Jimm, I lack your latest email address. The one I sent the file to bounced. Send me your address again and I'll enter it in my address book. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 21:07:30 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:07:30 -0500 Subject: Dorsey files attachment. Message-ID: For some reason I'm getting this "banned file" message for a couple of people. I have no idea why. Bob ___________________________________________________ Undeliverable: Banned file: Dorseyfiles.zip in mail from you System Administrator To: Rankin, Robert L Attachments: ________________________________ Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. Subject: Dorsey's Omaha and Ponca Texts. Sent: 4/23/2008 4:02 PM The following recipient(s) could not be reached: vstabler at esu1.org on 4/23/2008 4:03 PM You do not have permission to send to this recipient. For assistance, contact your system administrator. < b.nnnc.org #5.7.1 smtp; 550 5.7.1 Message content rejected, id=31426-01-252 - BANNED: Dorseyfiles.zip> From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:57:04 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:57:04 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: I'm at jgoodtracks at gmail.com jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:04 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jimm, I lack your latest email address. The one I sent the file to bounced. Send me your address again and I'll enter it in my address book. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu Apr 24 13:50:58 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:50:58 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Catherine and Siouanists: Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a summary of the results of this roundtable. All the best, Willem Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > From carudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Apr 24 14:33:39 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:33:39 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Message-ID: Willem - Great idea. I'll try to make sure we at least get good notes on the session and post a summary of some sort. (Anyone want to volunteer as recording secretary??) Sorry you won't be there! Catherine >>> 04/24/08 8:50 AM >>> Hi Catherine and Siouanists: Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a summary of the results of this roundtable. All the best, Willem Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > From cpratt at stinternet.net Fri Apr 25 00:42:19 2008 From: cpratt at stinternet.net (Cameron J. Pratt) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:42:19 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 25 01:08:44 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:08:44 -0500 Subject: Attn: Cameron Pratt Message-ID: Cameron, If you will send me your personal email address I can send you a copy of the Omaha/Ponca stories and texts. I can't do it through the Siouan List because I don't think the list permits attachments. Bob Rankin, rankin at ku.edu ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Cameron J. Pratt Sent: Thu 4/24/2008 7:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From ishna00 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 04:33:35 2008 From: ishna00 at hotmail.com (ThodeCharles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:33:35 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <20080424085058.3k83u7vvl7lcskgg@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Hau Mitakodapi, I'd like to see the results too as I will be at Infield in Santa Barbara. C. Thode LAKOTA DOCUMENTATION PROJECT U of CO-Boulder > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:50:58 -0500 > From: rwd0002 at unt.edu > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; carudin1 at wsc.edu > Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > > Hi Catherine and Siouanists: > > Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned > this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a > summary of the results of this roundtable. > > All the best, > > Willem > > Quoting Catherine Rudin : > > > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > > of purpose and philosophy. > > > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 메신저의 차세대 버전, Windows Live Messenger! http://windowslive.msn.co.kr/wlm/messenger/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 25 16:36:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:36:39 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <001f01c8a66d$37929ae0$6402a8c0@computer1> Message-ID: Dear Cameron, Hi! I am the person at MSSU organizing the overall conference, which will be on campus on June 20-21. Catherine Rudin is the contact person for participating formally in the roundtable on Siouan dictionaries. This is a small conference, with only one session at a time, so if you attend, you would automatically be part of the discussion informally just by virtue of listening and asking questions. I think the roundtable will be relatively informal, with lots of time for interaction between the panel and everyone else. If you would like to present a traditional 20 minute paper on some topic related to Osage in particular or Siouan languages in general, then please get your abstract to me by May 12th, so I can put the overall program together. Registration payments aren't needed until you actually arrive, but I would like to know how many folks plan to come, so I can have the right number of hotel rooms set aside, have a comfortable meeting space, etc. I look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for your interest in the conference! Sincerely, Jill Greer Jill D. Greer Assistant Professor Social Science Department MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu >>> "Cameron J. Pratt" 4/24/2008 7:42 PM >>> Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From carudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Apr 27 17:05:28 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 27 22:03:12 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:03:12 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 27 22:03:45 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:03:45 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: I'll be driving from Lawrence and have room for one or two more riders. People would have to have a way to get to Lawrence though. There is a turnpike (with toll) from Tulsa to the state line. From there the short hop to Joplin is "free". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Catherine Rudin Sent: Sun 4/27/2008 12:05 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: travel to conference Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:41 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:41 -0700 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I would be happy to participate in this roundtable. As some of you know, I'm just finishing up an Osage Dictionary, to be published soon. Thanks, Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:40 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I'd very much like to have the latest copy of this, too. Thanks, Bob. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:40 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable - Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm familiar with the JOD slip files for Osage and have worked with many of them. I have another project planned to retranscribe and preserve that collection for Osage. Would be happy to participate in this discussion. Thanks for the organizational effort! Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:03 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From lcumberl at indiana.edu Mon Apr 28 15:55:35 2008 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:55:35 -0400 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: <48146C090200008E0000C022@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I'll be driving from Ponca City to Joplin and could do it via Tulsa - I could meet you at the airport and we could share gas the rest of the way. Joplin's only about 2 hrs from Tulsa. Linda Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Hi, all. > I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether > it makes sense to > fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or > Springfield (though > still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What > transportation is there > from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, > which would be ok but > might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else > is coming in that > way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of > the area airports? > > > Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are > planning, since I'm > not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from > Wisconsin, but it's > a pretty long haul. > > Catherine > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Apr 28 16:50:42 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:50:42 -0500 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: <48146C090200008E0000C022@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi, all, Actually, I'm sorry to say that it will entail renting a car from any of the airports, unless one wants to brave a Greyhound type bus. The Fayetteville airport is a little over an hour from Joplin, Springfield's airport is slightly less (and does not require any complicated navigation - just get on I-44 west, and go straight to Joplin which is about 45-50 minutes without stopping). Tulsa is about one hour and 20 minutes from Joplin, and the best road is the Will Rogers Turnpike (the same highway as I-44, but with tolls added on.) I do apologize for the costs - I warned folks that there is no cheap way to get here by air, and of course driving isn't cheap anymore either. If there were enough people coming in to the same airport at the same time, perhaps I could arrange a university van as a shuttle, for a small fee per person. That also raises the issue of registration costs. The only cost to me will be any food that we provide, so I was hoping to keep it minimal, like $10-12 per person? Is that in line with past years??? And speaking of travel arrangements, I just reserved a block of 25 rooms (it is primarily king beds only, because there is a sporting event that weekend, and many of the doubles were already booked). Our meeting rate is $54.95/night, with wireless hi-speed access and breakfast included, as well as exercise room. You may call the Baymont Inn, (417) 623-0000 and ask for the Siouan Conference (Sorry, they didn't have room on the form for Caddoan, too!) There are a few pricier options also (a Holiday Inn Executive Center, a business-oriented Mariott), and perhaps there is something cheaper somewhere, but the Baymont is close to I-44, and lots of restaurants, and relatively easy to get to MSSU from there (by car). Please let me know if you need clarification or more info. You can also visit the MSSU webpage for more campus info on the school and area also at www.mssu.edu Best, Jill >>> "Catherine Rudin" 4/27/2008 12:05 PM >>> Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Apr 28 22:15:32 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:15:32 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "/i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch/" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 04:23:42 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:23:42 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 14:03:20 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:03:20 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5419 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Apr 29 14:36:17 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:36:17 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory, My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. TML Rory M Larson wrote: > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the > Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia > who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority > would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? > Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why > would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If > she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and > perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about > three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war > from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans > from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and > Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > *"Rankin, Robert L" * > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > > To > > cc > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like > that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia > (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), > so she would have known the language since both parents and an older > sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I > guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns > and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would > have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many > stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida > was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all > amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's > 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she > went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII > tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to > locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear > has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the > student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon > Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the > 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn > who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging > correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- > just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been > naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. > According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother > and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to > make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and > see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some > children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the > question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They > might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER > BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) > Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) > Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who > died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from > various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the > 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:43:18 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:43:18 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion. The problem is that we don't KNOW exactly where "our" Frida Hahn was from. She may have been someone directly from Germany. Or she may have been a Volga German whose family had come to Lincoln, NE from Russia just before she was born. In either case she would speak German and would have had relatives in Germany somewhere. There are a lot of Jewish "Frida" spellings; the standard German spelling is Frieda, but various spellings are possible. The Yad Vashem holocaust list is as comprehensive as they can make it, but it's for people who died or disappeared in the Camps. The German government may have lists on-line of all their citizens who were killed in the war. I simply don't know. Tom Leonard has better information than I do. When I noticed a Frida Hahn (1st generation American) from a German-speaking family in Lincoln who was the right age and who was from the same state as the Poncas were, I felt it was too great a coincidence not to point out. I still think it might be worthwhile checking. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Apr 29 14:47:32 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:47:32 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Rory M Larson : > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns > Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had > come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third > Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and > not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at > a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she > might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the > following decade. There were probably about three million or so German > civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the > massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their > country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" > lists include these people? > > Rory Well, clearly, Bob's assumption is that Frida Hahn was Jewish. Or am I wrong? If she is, why she would go to Germany in the late 1930ties is inconceivable to us with the hindsight of history, but there were many Jews in Germany in those times who could not imagine persecution was going to be as bad as it became, and did not consider leaving Germany. Willem From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:53:23 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:53:23 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Tom, I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Rory, My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. TML Rory M Larson wrote: I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:54:41 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:54:41 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Willem, I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among whom she worked however. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:47 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; Rory M Larson Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Quoting Rory M Larson : > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns > Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had > come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third > Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and > not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at > a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she > might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the > following decade. There were probably about three million or so German > civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the > massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their > country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" > lists include these people? > > Rory Well, clearly, Bob's assumption is that Frida Hahn was Jewish. Or am I wrong? If she is, why she would go to Germany in the late 1930ties is inconceivable to us with the hindsight of history, but there were many Jews in Germany in those times who could not imagine persecution was going to be as bad as it became, and did not consider leaving Germany. Willem From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Apr 29 15:09:37 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:09:37 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Willem, > > I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. > I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I > think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among > whom she worked however. > > Bob > Thanks Bob. Since the Ponca people say that she was Jewish from Germany, that was the correct assumption. Probably not the same person as the Nebraskan Frida Hahn from Russia who might have been Volga Germans and therefore not Jewish? Just guessing... From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 15:36:05 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:36:05 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: <20080429100937.b1ggnbzux91c0c44@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: In my Anthropology of the Great Plains class I have always described the "Russified" Volga Germans as being either Protestants or Catholics, reflecting the division of their original closed corporate mother colonies on either side of the Volga River... and subsequent sorting out by faith into either Kansas or Nebraska. Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/29/2008 10:11 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To siouan at lists.colorado.edu, "Rankin, Robert L" cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Willem, > > I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. > I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I > think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among > whom she worked however. > > Bob > Thanks Bob. Since the Ponca people say that she was Jewish from Germany, that was the correct assumption. Probably not the same person as the Nebraskan Frida Hahn from Russia who might have been Volga Germans and therefore not Jewish? Just guessing... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 16:02:00 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:02:00 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: <48173261.20701@cox.net> Message-ID: Tom, Bob, Willem, Thanks for your perspectives. That clarifies the issue a lot. I suppose "our" Frida's family might have been Volga German and still be Jewish, but it would be hard to connect the Lincoln Frida with a linguist from Germany who was later recalled to Germany. On the other hand, as Willem points out, either the Lincoln Frida or a German Frieda might have gone to Germany voluntarily in the late 1930s to visit family or for other reasons, even if she was Jewish. And again, Jewish or not, she might have died in the war for any number of reasons, not necessarily in a German concentration camp. The possible connection with Code Talkers that Tom brings up is fascinating. It would certainly be wonderful to find documentation of that in German archives. If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Apr 29 17:14:26 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:14:26 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 17:24:38 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:24:38 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.ahsgr.org/ Here is a link to the American Historical Society of Germans from Russia located in Lincoln, NE. Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 02:00:28 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:00:28 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: If she'd ever received a degree it would be easy, but, although she wrote the Ponca dissertation, she never published it == a requirement at Columbia Univ. at that time. Looking at the holocaust lists, I wonder if the spelling "Frieda" is used by German speakers, while "Frida" is a transliteration from Cyrillic or an adaptation of the name in other languages like Polish, Czech or Hungarian. The Hungarian name seems to be written with the "i". Bob ________________________________ If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 02:02:11 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:02:11 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:22:08 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:22:08 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frida could also be short for something fuller, such as Elfriede. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:00 am >>> If she'd ever received a degree it would be easy, but, although she wrote the Ponca dissertation, she never published it == a requirement at Columbia Univ. at that time. Looking at the holocaust lists, I wonder if the spelling "Frieda" is used by German speakers, while "Frida" is a transliteration from Cyrillic or an adaptation of the name in other languages like Polish, Czech or Hungarian. The Hungarian name seems to be written with the "i". Bob ________________________________ If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:24:12 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:24:12 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:32:31 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:32:31 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: A lot of Volga Germans who went from Russia to the US belonged to pacifist Protesant groups of a Pietist stamp such as the Mennonites and left Russia precisley because they didn't want to fight in the Tsar's ary because they felt war was intrinsically evil. If frida had come from such a family she certainly wouldn't have gone back to Germany in the late 1930s. The name Hahn isn't specifically Jewish in German (it means rooster), in the way that many first names or surnames in German clue one into the user's religious heritage. As to German linguists working in the 20s and 30s on Oklahoma languages and going back to Germany, wasn't that the case with Gunter Wagner, who worked on Yuchi? Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 04/29/08 5:02 pm >>> Tom, Bob, Willem, Thanks for your perspectives. That clarifies the issue a lot. I suppose "our" Frida's family might have been Volga German and still be Jewish, but it would be hard to connect the Lincoln Frida with a linguist from Germany who was later recalled to Germany. On the other hand, as Willem points out, either the Lincoln Frida or a German Frieda might have gone to Germany voluntarily in the late 1930s to visit family or for other reasons, even if she was Jewish. And again, Jewish or not, she might have died in the war for any number of reasons, not necessarily in a German concentration camp. The possible connection with Code Talkers that Tom brings up is fascinating. It would certainly be wonderful to find documentation of that in German archives. If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Wed Apr 30 11:02:54 2008 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (Ozbolt, Ivan C.) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:02:54 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers Message-ID: Hello all, I wrote a paper on the code talkers for a linguistic anthropology class at the University of Oklahoma a year ago, and my impression was that there is still a lot to be researched on the subject. For instance, most studies are only historical and don’t analyze the codes from a linguistic or cryptographic perspective. « The Comanche Code Talkers of World War II” by William C. Meadows is a fascinating book that lists all the Native languages used by the military during WWI and WWII. Most were used occasionally, and only a few ones had actual codes (Navajo and Comanche for instance). I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn’t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs’? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn’t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely “new” and “unknown” language)? According to the sources I consulted, none of these codes was ever broken, not even the Navajo’s (even though it was used by several hundred people over an extended period of time). Most books on the subject simply state that this was so because Navajo is an incredibly difficult language. Is that a sufficient reason? In comparison, it only took the American cryptographs a few weeks to break the new Japanese codes (after they had changed them), but they spoke Japanese! I am not at all an expert on the code talkers, but I remember having finished writing my paper with many unanswered questions (maybe some of you could answer them!)! I can also email my bibliography and paper to anyone interested. Sincerely, Ivan Ozbolt ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant [Granta at edgehill.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:24 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 30 13:19:54 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers In-Reply-To: <4AC54655F1775541BFD058DA4695D5747DB18673E8@XMAIL3.sooner.net.ou.edu> Message-ID: Hi Ivan, I would love a copy of your paper and bibliography, if you don't mind. > I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn’t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs’? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn’t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely “new” and “unknown” language)? Analyzing a previously unknown language should certainly be doable if you have speakers to work with within a human context. But going entirely off brief text or sound sequences, I wonder how you would even start? Wouldn't the problem be much like deciphering a dead language from ancient texts without a Rosetta Stone? Maya has been deciphered only recently after a hundred years or so of trying, even though Maya is still spoken. I think Etruscan, Minoan Linear A, and the Indus Valley script are still pending. Thanks for your post. Rory "Ozbolt, Ivan C." Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/30/2008 06:06 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To "siouan at lists.colorado.edu" cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers Hello all, I wrote a paper on the code talkers for a linguistic anthropology class at the University of Oklahoma a year ago, and my impression was that there is still a lot to be researched on the subject. For instance, most studies are only historical and don’t analyze the codes from a linguistic or cryptographic perspective. « The Comanche Code Talkers of World War II” by William C. Meadows is a fascinating book that lists all the Native languages used by the military during WWI and WWII. Most were used occasionally, and only a few ones had actual codes (Navajo and Comanche for instance). I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn’t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs’? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn’t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely “new” and “unknown” language)? According to the sources I consulted, none of these codes was ever broken, not even the Navajo’s (even though it was used by several hundred people over an extended period of time). Most books on the subject simply state that this was so because Navajo is an incredibly difficult language. Is that a sufficient reason? In comparison, it only took the American cryptographs a few weeks to break the new Japanese codes (after they had changed them), but they spoke Japanese! I am not at all an expert on the code talkers, but I remember having finished writing my paper with many unanswered questions (maybe some of you could answer them!)! I can also email my bibliography and paper to anyone interested. Sincerely, Ivan Ozbolt ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant [Granta at edgehill.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:24 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 14:33:11 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:33:11 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Yes. And don't forget that Frank Siebert (note German name) was arrested by the FBI in Oklahoma in 1941 while working briefly on Quapaw. They seemed to think he was un-American. Bob -------------------------------------- > As to German linguists working in the 20s and 30s on Oklahoma languages and going back to Germany, wasn't that the case with Gunter Wagner, who worked on Yuchi? Anthony From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 14:54:31 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:54:31 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob From jmcbride at kawnation.com Wed Apr 30 16:39:07 2008 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:39:07 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been recognized for their contributions to the war effort. I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, aren't getting any younger. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: RE: Code talkers. I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob From John.Koontz at colorado.edu Mon Apr 7 20:57:48 2008 From: John.Koontz at colorado.edu (Koontz John E) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:57:48 -0600 Subject: Status of Siouan List Message-ID: Apart from any neglect on my part, I regret to report that the Siouan List is experiencing difficulties due to problems with the home site's list processor. I am informed that a solution is impending. You may or may not see this message before a full solution is in effect. I deeply regret the inconvenience of the list being offline and largely unattended anyway over the past year. John E. Koontz From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Apr 7 21:47:25 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:47:25 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, John, for the update. I was fearful that perhaps no one was planning to attend the Siouan Conference this summer at my institution because no one has submitted any papers yet! I do have addresses for those who responded to my original request for dates, but I hate to leave anyone else out. Any suggestions? Jill Greer >>> Koontz John E 4/7/2008 3:57 PM >>> Apart from any neglect on my part, I regret to report that the Siouan List is experiencing difficulties due to problems with the home site's list processor. I am informed that a solution is impending. You may or may not see this message before a full solution is in effect. I deeply regret the inconvenience of the list being offline and largely unattended anyway over the past year. John E. Koontz From rankin at ku.edu Mon Apr 7 23:49:58 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:49:58 -0500 Subject: Death of Blair Rudes (from SSILA Newsletter) Message-ID: "It is with regret that we announce the recent passing of three SSILA colleagues. Emory Sekaquaptewa, the first recipient of SSILA's Ken Hale Prize, died December 13, 2007, at the age of 79. Eloise Jelinek, retired professor of linguistics at the University of Arizona, died in Tucson on December 21, 2007, after a long illness. And Blair Rudes, Associate Professor of English at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, died of a sudden heart attack on March 16, 2008. It also saddens us to note the passing of Marie Smith, the last speaker of Eyak; of Alfred Chalepah, Jr., the last fluent speaker of Plains Apache; and of Irving "Hap" McCue, for 33 years Lecturer in Ojibwe Language and Culture at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Full obituaries will appear in the next (double) issue of the SSILA Newsletter." From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Apr 8 20:40:49 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:40:49 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: v From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Apr 8 20:54:22 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:54:22 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, All! Just a friendly reminder that you are all invited to attend the Siouan Conference on June 20-21 at MSSU in beautiful Southwest Missouri (the fair city of Joplin to be exact). Deadline for submission of Abstracts is not far away - May 12th!! There will be an early-bird gathering on Thursday night, and sessions should run from 9-4 both Friday and Saturday. Papers can last 20 minutes, with 10 minutes for questions and discussion. Fun activities may include visiting the Quapaw Casino nearby (or other Tribal Gaming Establishments) Flights directly to Joplin are possible, but I suspect that Springfield/Branson, XNA (Fayetteville,Arkansas), or Tulsa airports are typically much more affordable, and each is about an hour from Joplin. I will post hotel information next time, as I have to go attend my Social Science Department meeting right now. Cordially yours, Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science Missouri Southern State University 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, Missouri 64801 (417) 625-9795 From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 21:11:41 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:11:41 -0500 Subject: Status of Siouan List In-Reply-To: <47FB921D.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: For what it is worth, This current post was Blank.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Status of Siouan List From John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU Tue Apr 8 21:45:08 2008 From: John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU (Koontz John E) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:45:08 -0600 Subject: Siouan List Message-ID: The list was offline, it seems, from c. February 15, 2008 until yesterday. Bob Rankin finally realized what was happening, and contacted me at work to point it out. It appears that the problem with the list (and all lists supported by the U of Colorado List Processor) was that lists with subscribers from the domain yahoo.co.uk were not being distributed. I don't know the details, but hypothetically that domain is being banned by someone for some reason somewhere, causing mail with an address with that domain somewhere in its headers to be deleted somewhere in transit. I am told that the problem is being fixed, but I don't know the schedule for the fix. It turns out that we have one subscriber from that domain: Bruce Ingham. Once I extracted a description of the problem from the list service folks, and realized that we had only one subscriber with a problem address, I fixed our list by deleting Bruce. This is a temporary situation. I will add him back as soon as the problem is fixed. If you have any information on the problem, please feel free to contact me directly off list. I have explained to Bruce that he can read the list at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/siouan.html so it is not necessary to send anything to him unless he should ask you to do so himself. For the moment, however, Bruce cannot write to the list without one of us posting for him. If you do this, please make sure that his address is not included in the mail (general email security considerations) or especially in the headers (in view of the current problem). In general, if you cross post something or send something to an address other than the List it's probably a good idea to do that in a separate mailing. That is, don't include addresses for several Lists in a single mailing. Than can easily get hairy if people are inattentive in replying. It's also not necessary to cc things to people who are on the list as you post to the list. I've occasionally seen that in the past. It just means that the person in question gets two copies of the item. I regret to report that it looks like anything sent to the list since February 15th (an exchange between Jimm Good Tracks and Louanna Furbee on Winnebago) has been lost. From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Apr 22 20:15:26 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:15:26 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Message-ID: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 22 21:31:37 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 22 22:02:45 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:02:45 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 01:53:03 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Apr 23 03:07:36 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:07:36 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, I am currently working on the converting the JOD slip file microfilm to digital images for our Ponca dictionary here. TML Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Aloha all, > > Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary > roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with > the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? > > Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally > alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. > > I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. > > WibthahoN > WagoNze Uthixide > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > Anthropology-Geography > Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Office: 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Wed Apr 23 03:16:57 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:16:57 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, We are currently working on converting the JOD slip file microfilm over to a digital format for our Ponca dictionary here. TML Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > Aloha all, > > Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary > roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with > the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? > > Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally > alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. > > I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. > > WibthahoN > WagoNze Uthixide > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > Anthropology-Geography > Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > Office: 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 04:11:01 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:11:01 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: It's free, but keep reminding me if I procrastinate getting it to you! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From voorhis at westman.wave.ca Wed Apr 23 13:06:04 2008 From: voorhis at westman.wave.ca (voorhis at westman.wave.ca) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:06:04 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I was working on a 100+ page vocabulary of Catawba compiled from published sources before I retired 11 years ago, and would be interested in attending this roundtable session. However, I was born in America, and though I am a Canadian citizen with a valid Canadian passport, American law requires me to use an American passport within the US wherever a passport is required. The many Americans who resisted buying a passport last year to come to a scheduled Siouan Conference in Saskatoon, with the result that the conference was cancelled, will understand my reluctance to pay for a second passport so as to attend the Siouan Conference in Joplin. Paul Catherine Rudin wrote: > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and > Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper > issues of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > > (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a > brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in > touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: > carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations > scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren > Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and > Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory > Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. > Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or > dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be > appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per > project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. > > (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main > point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the > collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us > just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the > expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest > dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if > everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a > dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, > examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of > issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open > discussion portion of the session. > > Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. > Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). > > -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of > "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, > pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to > best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What > grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, > suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? > -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or > between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of > alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about > alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it > important to think about for various types of users (linguists, > tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) > -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? > -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: > what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about > linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper > dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. > printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field > structure is necessary in order to include all needed information > for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. > > Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing > your insights! Catherine > > > From carudin1 at wsc.edu Wed Apr 23 13:44:15 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:44:15 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 23 14:00:22 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:22 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Aho Bob! Wi shti! I would love a copy of your retranscriptions at your convenience. WibthahoN Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. "Catherine Rudin" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/23/2008 08:47 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 14:58:18 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:58:18 -0700 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I would like to participate in the roundtable. I'm working on a revised Biloxi dictionary, still very much in progress. I think this would be a good forum for discussion and ideas. Dave Kaufman Catherine Rudin wrote: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Apr 23 15:04:04 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:04:04 -0600 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EAA29.6060609@cox.net> Message-ID: Hi, everyone, I want to alert you to the imminent publication of THE NEW LAKOTA DICTIONARY. It's at the publishers now, and should be ready for distribution some time in July. Description and sample pages are at http://www.lakhota.org/. That should provide some material for the round table to examine. Sadly, I also need to announce that I'm going to be absent from the meeting again this year. My wife has scheduled herself a trip to Europe for that week (to visit our daughter, who's working for the German government in Berlin), and as you all know by now, we have to have one person at home at all times. However, I've been working hard on a very complex Wichita phonology/morphology problem for the past few months, and maybe I'll have something to tell you about that next year. I miss the SACC meetings very much, and wish you all a good time. Best wishes to all, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rgraczyk at aol.com Wed Apr 23 15:06:35 2008 From: rgraczyk at aol.com (rgraczyk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:06:35 -0400 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I'd like to present something on the Crow dictionary project. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Rudin To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 6:44 am Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 21:04:55 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:04:55 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Jimm, I lack your latest email address. The one I sent the file to bounced. Send me your address again and I'll enter it in my address book. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 23 21:07:30 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:07:30 -0500 Subject: Dorsey files attachment. Message-ID: For some reason I'm getting this "banned file" message for a couple of people. I have no idea why. Bob ___________________________________________________ Undeliverable: Banned file: Dorseyfiles.zip in mail from you System Administrator To: Rankin, Robert L Attachments: ________________________________ Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. Subject: Dorsey's Omaha and Ponca Texts. Sent: 4/23/2008 4:02 PM The following recipient(s) could not be reached: vstabler at esu1.org on 4/23/2008 4:03 PM You do not have permission to send to this recipient. For assistance, contact your system administrator. < b.nnnc.org #5.7.1 smtp; 550 5.7.1 Message content rejected, id=31426-01-252 - BANNED: Dorseyfiles.zip> From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:57:04 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:57:04 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob: I'm at jgoodtracks at gmail.com jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:04 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jimm, I lack your latest email address. The one I sent the file to bounced. Send me your address again and I'll enter it in my address book. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 8:53 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob: While there will be others, especially those currently with Omaha-Ponca, I would like to get a copy as well, in as much as the Ponca are the OM's neighbors to the North in Oklahoma. Let me know what the cost is. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. From rwd0002 at unt.edu Thu Apr 24 13:50:58 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:50:58 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Catherine and Siouanists: Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a summary of the results of this roundtable. All the best, Willem Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > From carudin1 at wsc.edu Thu Apr 24 14:33:39 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:33:39 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Message-ID: Willem - Great idea. I'll try to make sure we at least get good notes on the session and post a summary of some sort. (Anyone want to volunteer as recording secretary??) Sorry you won't be there! Catherine >>> 04/24/08 8:50 AM >>> Hi Catherine and Siouanists: Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a summary of the results of this roundtable. All the best, Willem Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > of purpose and philosophy. > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > From cpratt at stinternet.net Fri Apr 25 00:42:19 2008 From: cpratt at stinternet.net (Cameron J. Pratt) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:42:19 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From rankin at ku.edu Fri Apr 25 01:08:44 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:08:44 -0500 Subject: Attn: Cameron Pratt Message-ID: Cameron, If you will send me your personal email address I can send you a copy of the Omaha/Ponca stories and texts. I can't do it through the Siouan List because I don't think the list permits attachments. Bob Rankin, rankin at ku.edu ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Cameron J. Pratt Sent: Thu 4/24/2008 7:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From ishna00 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 04:33:35 2008 From: ishna00 at hotmail.com (ThodeCharles) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:33:35 -0500 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <20080424085058.3k83u7vvl7lcskgg@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Hau Mitakodapi, I'd like to see the results too as I will be at Infield in Santa Barbara. C. Thode LAKOTA DOCUMENTATION PROJECT U of CO-Boulder > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:50:58 -0500 > From: rwd0002 at unt.edu > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; carudin1 at wsc.edu > Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > > Hi Catherine and Siouanists: > > Would love to come, but my wife and I have already other trips planned > this summer, so I am not gonna make it. I hope someone does publish a > summary of the results of this roundtable. > > All the best, > > Willem > > Quoting Catherine Rudin : > > > Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable > > Siouan and Caddoan Conference > > Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 > > > > This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable > > session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, > > successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues > > of purpose and philosophy. > > > > Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN ???? ??? ??, Windows Live Messenger! http://windowslive.msn.co.kr/wlm/messenger/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 25 16:36:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:36:39 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <001f01c8a66d$37929ae0$6402a8c0@computer1> Message-ID: Dear Cameron, Hi! I am the person at MSSU organizing the overall conference, which will be on campus on June 20-21. Catherine Rudin is the contact person for participating formally in the roundtable on Siouan dictionaries. This is a small conference, with only one session at a time, so if you attend, you would automatically be part of the discussion informally just by virtue of listening and asking questions. I think the roundtable will be relatively informal, with lots of time for interaction between the panel and everyone else. If you would like to present a traditional 20 minute paper on some topic related to Osage in particular or Siouan languages in general, then please get your abstract to me by May 12th, so I can put the overall program together. Registration payments aren't needed until you actually arrive, but I would like to know how many folks plan to come, so I can have the right number of hotel rooms set aside, have a comfortable meeting space, etc. I look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for your interest in the conference! Sincerely, Jill Greer Jill D. Greer Assistant Professor Social Science Department MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu >>> "Cameron J. Pratt" 4/24/2008 7:42 PM >>> Dear Catherine Rudin I have been following these recent e-mails and I am interested in receiving more information about the Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable... Siouan and Caddoan Conference... Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008. The Osage Language program is wanting to build a database of Osage langauge for dictionary purposes, and to analyze our language. I would also love a copy of this Omaha transcript to compare notes with Osage. Cameron Pratt Osage Langauge Program From carudin1 at wsc.edu Sun Apr 27 17:05:28 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 27 22:03:12 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:03:12 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Sun Apr 27 22:03:45 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:03:45 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: I'll be driving from Lawrence and have room for one or two more riders. People would have to have a way to get to Lawrence though. There is a turnpike (with toll) from Tulsa to the state line. From there the short hop to Joplin is "free". Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Catherine Rudin Sent: Sun 4/27/2008 12:05 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: travel to conference Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:41 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:41 -0700 Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable In-Reply-To: <480E010E0200008E0000BAE4@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, I would be happy to participate in this roundtable. As some of you know, I'm just finishing up an Osage Dictionary, to be published soon. Thanks, Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Call for Participation: Siouan Dictionaries Roundtable Siouan and Caddoan Conference Joplin, MO, June 20-21 2008 This year's Siouan and Caddoan Conference will include a roundtable session on making dictionaries of Siouan languages: pitfalls, successful practices, projects in progress, helpful hints, deeper issues of purpose and philosophy. Your participation in this session is invited on two levels: (1) If you would like an official spot on the program to give a brief presentation on your own dictionary project, please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Catherine Rudin: carudin1(at)wsc.edu As of now there are two presentations scheduled, one on the recently completed Hocank dictionary (Iren Hartmann) and one on the newly-funded, about-to-begin Omaha and Ponca dictionary (Mark Awkuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson). We'd welcome additional presentations. Description/demonstration of any Siouan-language dictionary or dictionary project, at any stage of completion, would be appropriate. Depending on interest we'll adjust the time per project and if necessary split into a couple of sessions. (2) We are counting on lots of audience participation - the main point of the panel, at least from my perspective, is to pick the collective brain of the Siouan linguistic community, so those of us just embarking on dictionary projects can benefit from all the expertise out there. Calling it a "roundtable" is meant to suggest dialogue rather than lectures. To this end it would be great if everyone would think about issues involved in constructing a dictionary beforehand and bring in ideas, questions, answers, examples to show. We might even try to come up with a list of issues in advance, as a kind of agenda guide for the open discussion portion of the session. Just to get the conversation going, here's a possible starter list. Feel free to add (or subtract, combine, or modify). -What information should dictionary entries include? -What kinds of "front matter" are useful, essential, expendable? (grammar sketch, pronunciation guide, frequency lists, ...) -Grammar issues: how to best cover things like verb conjugation, allomorphy, etc. What grammatical categories need to be labelled? Do roots, prefixes, suffixes get separate entries, or do only whole words get listed? -Alphabetization: Does "ch" come after all of the "c" words, or between ce and ci? (are ch, sh, th etc. "letters" for purposes of alphabetization? What about long vowels? What to do about alternative orthographies? -User-friendliness issues: what is it important to think about for various types of users (linguists, tribe members, language students, non-specialist public, etc.) -What makes a good example sentence? How many should be included? -Cultural information? How much to include, and how? -Tech issues: what are the best software/protocols to use, and why? What about linking sound files, pictures, etc.? -Electronic vs. paper dictionaries (how do desiderata or possibilities for database vs. printed version vs. web-based version differ?; what kind of field structure is necessary in order to include all needed information for all three?) -Pitfalls to avoid. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Joplin, and to hearing your insights! Catherine -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:40 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: <480EF6DF0200008E0000BBAE@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I'd very much like to have the latest copy of this, too. Thanks, Bob. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob - I'd love a copy. Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/22/08 5:02 PM >>> 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 03:27:40 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable - Osage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm familiar with the JOD slip files for Osage and have worked with many of them. I have another project planned to retranscribe and preserve that collection for Osage. Would be happy to participate in this discussion. Thanks for the organizational effort! Carolyn Carolyn Quintero, PhD Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:03 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Mark, and all, 1) I'm familiar with most of the Dorsey files and publications. In addition, I'm planning to do a paper on Dorsey's short/long vowel transcription to parallel the talk I did on his consonant transcriptions about 3 Summers ago. This will mostly deal with his use of the "breve" diacritic. 2) I've recently retranscribed the 1890 Dorsey Omaha and Ponca text collection from the Univ. of Colorado Siouan Archives (where it was a DOS [ascii] file). It is now in a Microsoft Word file using the Gentium Unicode font and standard Dhegihanist phonological notation. This could easily be converted into the spellings that are taught in the Omaha and Ponca language programs. I have also corrected some of Dorsey's many mistakes. I would be happy to provide a copy of this file to anyone who wants it. It is not perfect as some of Dorsey's original mistakes remain uncorrected. These will have to be patched up by someone who knows the language. I think this workshop is a great idea! By the way, Mark, congratulations on the grant! Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Tue 4/22/2008 4:31 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Aloha all, Catherine has posted our call for participants in the dictionary roundtable. I thought I would ask how many of y'all are familiar with the JOD slip file and associated collections at the NAA-SI? Elder Brother John Koontz has seen the collection and originally alterted me to its existence in the mid-1980s. I look forward to visiting with everyone in Joplin. WibthahoN WagoNze Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 9:39 AM From lcumberl at indiana.edu Mon Apr 28 15:55:35 2008 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:55:35 -0400 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: <48146C090200008E0000C022@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I'll be driving from Ponca City to Joplin and could do it via Tulsa - I could meet you at the airport and we could share gas the rest of the way. Joplin's only about 2 hrs from Tulsa. Linda Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Hi, all. > I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether > it makes sense to > fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or > Springfield (though > still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What > transportation is there > from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, > which would be ok but > might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else > is coming in that > way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of > the area airports? > > > Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are > planning, since I'm > not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from > Wisconsin, but it's > a pretty long haul. > > Catherine > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Apr 28 16:50:42 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:50:42 -0500 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: <48146C090200008E0000C022@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi, all, Actually, I'm sorry to say that it will entail renting a car from any of the airports, unless one wants to brave a Greyhound type bus. The Fayetteville airport is a little over an hour from Joplin, Springfield's airport is slightly less (and does not require any complicated navigation - just get on I-44 west, and go straight to Joplin which is about 45-50 minutes without stopping). Tulsa is about one hour and 20 minutes from Joplin, and the best road is the Will Rogers Turnpike (the same highway as I-44, but with tolls added on.) I do apologize for the costs - I warned folks that there is no cheap way to get here by air, and of course driving isn't cheap anymore either. If there were enough people coming in to the same airport at the same time, perhaps I could arrange a university van as a shuttle, for a small fee per person. That also raises the issue of registration costs. The only cost to me will be any food that we provide, so I was hoping to keep it minimal, like $10-12 per person? Is that in line with past years??? And speaking of travel arrangements, I just reserved a block of 25 rooms (it is primarily king beds only, because there is a sporting event that weekend, and many of the doubles were already booked). Our meeting rate is $54.95/night, with wireless hi-speed access and breakfast included, as well as exercise room. You may call the Baymont Inn, (417) 623-0000 and ask for the Siouan Conference (Sorry, they didn't have room on the form for Caddoan, too!) There are a few pricier options also (a Holiday Inn Executive Center, a business-oriented Mariott), and perhaps there is something cheaper somewhere, but the Baymont is close to I-44, and lots of restaurants, and relatively easy to get to MSSU from there (by car). Please let me know if you need clarification or more info. You can also visit the MSSU webpage for more campus info on the school and area also at www.mssu.edu Best, Jill >>> "Catherine Rudin" 4/27/2008 12:05 PM >>> Hi, all. I'm just looking at flights to the Joplin area, and wondering whether it makes sense to fly into Tulsa. It's almost $200 less than either Fayetteville or Springfield (though still not cheap - airline prices are amazing these days). What transportation is there from Tulsa to Joplin? I'm guessing it would mean renting a car, which would be ok but might boost the price back up to Fayetteville levels. If anyone else is coming in that way, maybe we could share? Are there busses or shuttles from any of the area airports? Just kind of thinking out loud here and wondering what others are planning, since I'm not familiar wth the area at all. May yet end up just driving from Wisconsin, but it's a pretty long haul. Catherine From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Apr 28 22:15:32 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:15:32 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "/i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch/" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 04:23:42 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:23:42 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 14:03:20 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:03:20 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5419 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Apr 29 14:36:17 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:36:17 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory, My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. TML Rory M Larson wrote: > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the > Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia > who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority > would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? > Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why > would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If > she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and > perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about > three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war > from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans > from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and > Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > *"Rankin, Robert L" * > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > > To > > cc > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like > that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia > (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), > so she would have known the language since both parents and an older > sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I > guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns > and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would > have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many > stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida > was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all > amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's > 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she > went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII > tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to > locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear > has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the > student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon > Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the > 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn > who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging > correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- > just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been > naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. > According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother > and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to > make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and > see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some > children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the > question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They > might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER > BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) > Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) > Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) > Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who > died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from > various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the > 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:43:18 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:43:18 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Sorry for the confusion. The problem is that we don't KNOW exactly where "our" Frida Hahn was from. She may have been someone directly from Germany. Or she may have been a Volga German whose family had come to Lincoln, NE from Russia just before she was born. In either case she would speak German and would have had relatives in Germany somewhere. There are a lot of Jewish "Frida" spellings; the standard German spelling is Frieda, but various spellings are possible. The Yad Vashem holocaust list is as comprehensive as they can make it, but it's for people who died or disappeared in the Camps. The German government may have lists on-line of all their citizens who were killed in the war. I simply don't know. Tom Leonard has better information than I do. When I noticed a Frida Hahn (1st generation American) from a German-speaking family in Lincoln who was the right age and who was from the same state as the Poncas were, I felt it was too great a coincidence not to point out. I still think it might be worthwhile checking. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rory M Larson Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:03 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Apr 29 14:47:32 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:47:32 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Rory M Larson : > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns > Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had > come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third > Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and > not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at > a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she > might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the > following decade. There were probably about three million or so German > civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the > massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their > country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" > lists include these people? > > Rory Well, clearly, Bob's assumption is that Frida Hahn was Jewish. Or am I wrong? If she is, why she would go to Germany in the late 1930ties is inconceivable to us with the hindsight of history, but there were many Jews in Germany in those times who could not imagine persecution was going to be as bad as it became, and did not consider leaving Germany. Willem From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:53:23 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:53:23 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Tom, I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Rory, My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. TML Rory M Larson wrote: I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? Rory "Rankin, Robert L" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/28/2008 11:25 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. Thanks again for the info. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. TML Rankin, Robert L wrote: I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. Her father and mother were both born in Russia NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue Apr 29 14:54:41 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:54:41 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Willem, I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among whom she worked however. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:47 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu; Rory M Larson Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Quoting Rory M Larson : > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns > Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had > come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third > Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and > not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at > a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she > might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the > following decade. There were probably about three million or so German > civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the > massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their > country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" > lists include these people? > > Rory Well, clearly, Bob's assumption is that Frida Hahn was Jewish. Or am I wrong? If she is, why she would go to Germany in the late 1930ties is inconceivable to us with the hindsight of history, but there were many Jews in Germany in those times who could not imagine persecution was going to be as bad as it became, and did not consider leaving Germany. Willem From rwd0002 at unt.edu Tue Apr 29 15:09:37 2008 From: rwd0002 at unt.edu (rwd0002 at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:09:37 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Willem, > > I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. > I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I > think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among > whom she worked however. > > Bob > Thanks Bob. Since the Ponca people say that she was Jewish from Germany, that was the correct assumption. Probably not the same person as the Nebraskan Frida Hahn from Russia who might have been Volga Germans and therefore not Jewish? Just guessing... From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 15:36:05 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:36:05 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: <20080429100937.b1ggnbzux91c0c44@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: In my Anthropology of the Great Plains class I have always described the "Russified" Volga Germans as being either Protestants or Catholics, reflecting the division of their original closed corporate mother colonies on either side of the Volga River... and subsequent sorting out by faith into either Kansas or Nebraska. Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. rwd0002 at unt.edu Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/29/2008 10:11 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To siouan at lists.colorado.edu, "Rankin, Robert L" cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn Quoting "Rankin, Robert L" : > Willem, > > I'm afraid I can't remember WHY I have always assumed she was Jewish. > I either heard or read it somewhere I considered authoritative, I > think. The assumption is backed up by the people in Oklahoma among > whom she worked however. > > Bob > Thanks Bob. Since the Ponca people say that she was Jewish from Germany, that was the correct assumption. Probably not the same person as the Nebraskan Frida Hahn from Russia who might have been Volga Germans and therefore not Jewish? Just guessing... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 16:02:00 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:02:00 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: <48173261.20701@cox.net> Message-ID: Tom, Bob, Willem, Thanks for your perspectives. That clarifies the issue a lot. I suppose "our" Frida's family might have been Volga German and still be Jewish, but it would be hard to connect the Lincoln Frida with a linguist from Germany who was later recalled to Germany. On the other hand, as Willem points out, either the Lincoln Frida or a German Frieda might have gone to Germany voluntarily in the late 1930s to visit family or for other reasons, even if she was Jewish. And again, Jewish or not, she might have died in the war for any number of reasons, not necessarily in a German concentration camp. The possible connection with Code Talkers that Tom brings up is fascinating. It would certainly be wonderful to find documentation of that in German archives. If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Tue Apr 29 17:14:26 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:14:26 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Tue Apr 29 17:24:38 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:24:38 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.ahsgr.org/ Here is a link to the American Historical Society of Germans from Russia located in Lincoln, NE. Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 02:00:28 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:00:28 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: If she'd ever received a degree it would be easy, but, although she wrote the Ponca dissertation, she never published it == a requirement at Columbia Univ. at that time. Looking at the holocaust lists, I wonder if the spelling "Frieda" is used by German speakers, while "Frida" is a transliteration from Cyrillic or an adaptation of the name in other languages like Polish, Czech or Hungarian. The Hungarian name seems to be written with the "i". Bob ________________________________ If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 02:02:11 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:02:11 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:22:08 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:22:08 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frida could also be short for something fuller, such as Elfriede. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:00 am >>> If she'd ever received a degree it would be easy, but, although she wrote the Ponca dissertation, she never published it == a requirement at Columbia Univ. at that time. Looking at the holocaust lists, I wonder if the spelling "Frieda" is used by German speakers, while "Frida" is a transliteration from Cyrillic or an adaptation of the name in other languages like Polish, Czech or Hungarian. The Hungarian name seems to be written with the "i". Bob ________________________________ If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:24:12 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:24:12 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 9:36 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Rory, > > My mom said Frida was Jewish from Germany. > > There was also rumor (unsubstantiated) that many German linguists were sent to Native American communities in the early 1930s (as Hitler was coming to power). Their work was well funded and given high priority. Hitler was aware of the U.S. using Shawnee and Choctaw speakers in W.W.-I and was trying to document other Native Languages. Most of the German scholars were unaware of the manipulation at play and nearly all were recalled back to their universities before 1939. > > I have heard this story from several different people over the years, including - oddly enough - two Comanche Code Talkers from W.W.-II. But, I have never seen empirical evidence to substantiate the tales. Nearly every tribe in Oklahoma, however, has stories of German linguists "visiting" amongst their tribe in the early 1930s. > > Could be a myth...could be true. It would be interesting to find additional info on this chapter. > > TML > > > > > Rory M Larson wrote: > > > I'm confused. What "holocaust" are we talking about here? Were the Hahns Jewish or non-Jewish Germans? If they were Germans from Russia who had come to America before Frida was even born, what authority would Third Reich Germany have had to call Frida "back" to Germany? Why only her, and not the rest of her family? If she was Jewish, why would they want to at a time they were trying to expel the Jews? If she was non-Jewish, she might have moved there voluntarily, and perhaps died there in the following decade. There were probably about three million or so German civilians that died during or after the war from Allied bombing or in the massive population expulsion of Germans from the eastern parts of their country by the Russians, Poles and Czechs. Would on-line "holocaust" lists include these people? > > Rory > > > > > > "Rankin, Robert L" > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > 04/28/2008 11:25 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.colorado.edu > > > To > > cc > > > Subject > RE: Frida Hahn > > > > > > > > > Thanks for adding that information. We were afraid something like that had happened. The Hahns of Lincoln were Germans from Russia (like many of the Germans of western KS and other midwestern states), so she would have known the language since both parents and an older sister had been born abroad and her father was not yet a citizen. I guess it might pay to check in Lincoln in any event. > > The holocaust lists that are on-line give at least three Frida Hahns and a number of others with spelling variants. The late '30s would have been a particularly bad time to go back to Germany. > > Thanks again for the info. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard > Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 5:15 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Frida Hahn > > > Thought I'd add a bit regarding Freida Hahn. > > My Ponca mother, Josetta Rush was friends with Freida. She had many stories about her. To my best understanding, as mom told it, Freida was German. She actually told a story about how they (Poncas) were all amazed that Freida could "i'e with those German ukhi'te at Miller's 101 Ranch" (German WWI POWs that never went back). > > Some time in the late 30s Freida was called back to Germany and she went. Mom said that all the Ponca boys that went to Europe in WWII tried to find her, but to no avail. Mom and her sisters tried to locate her through the Red Cross, but they never found her. The fear has always been that she had been killed in the holocaust. > > TML > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: > > I did a little more checking on Frida Hahn, the student of Franz Boas who wrote the Ponca grammar found in the Gordon Marsh Collection of the APS. There was a Frida Hahn listed in the 1920 US Census from Lincoln, Nebraska, daughter of one William Hahn who had emigrated from Russia. At the time our Frida was exchanging correspondence with Franz Boas she would have been 23-27 years old -- just about right for a graduate student. And she might have been naturally attracted to study Ponca since she was from Nebraska. According to the Census figures, below, she apparently had a brother and possibly three sisters. > > Those of you living in the Lincoln area might want to make some phone calls to the Hahns in the Lincoln phone directory and see if any of the names below rings a bell. There may be some children or grandchildren still around, and we could clear up the question "What ever happened to Frida Hahn?" once and for all. They might appreciate the information we have about her too. > > Her father and mother were both born in Russia > > NAME STATUS AGE FATHER BIRTHPLACE > Hahn, Emma Married 43 F William (H9) Russia > Hahn, Emma Single 11 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Frida Single 13 F William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, George Single 22 M William (H9) Nebraska > Hahn, Hazel Single 9m F William (H9) Nebraska > > I also checked the listings of names of persons who died in the holocaust. There were at least three Frida Hahns from various places in Silesia and Hungary, but they were all born in the 1880s. Let us hope she was not one of them. > > Bob > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 10:32:31 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:32:31 +0100 Subject: Frida Hahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: A lot of Volga Germans who went from Russia to the US belonged to pacifist Protesant groups of a Pietist stamp such as the Mennonites and left Russia precisley because they didn't want to fight in the Tsar's ary because they felt war was intrinsically evil. If frida had come from such a family she certainly wouldn't have gone back to Germany in the late 1930s. The name Hahn isn't specifically Jewish in German (it means rooster), in the way that many first names or surnames in German clue one into the user's religious heritage. As to German linguists working in the 20s and 30s on Oklahoma languages and going back to Germany, wasn't that the case with Gunter Wagner, who worked on Yuchi? Anthony >>> Rory M Larson 04/29/08 5:02 pm >>> Tom, Bob, Willem, Thanks for your perspectives. That clarifies the issue a lot. I suppose "our" Frida's family might have been Volga German and still be Jewish, but it would be hard to connect the Lincoln Frida with a linguist from Germany who was later recalled to Germany. On the other hand, as Willem points out, either the Lincoln Frida or a German Frieda might have gone to Germany voluntarily in the late 1930s to visit family or for other reasons, even if she was Jewish. And again, Jewish or not, she might have died in the war for any number of reasons, not necessarily in a German concentration camp. The possible connection with Code Talkers that Tom brings up is fascinating. It would certainly be wonderful to find documentation of that in German archives. If Frida was a student of Franz Boas, wouldn't there be academic records somewhere that would tell where she was from? Rory ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu Wed Apr 30 11:02:54 2008 From: ivan.ozbolt at ou.edu (Ozbolt, Ivan C.) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:02:54 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers Message-ID: Hello all, I wrote a paper on the code talkers for a linguistic anthropology class at the University of Oklahoma a year ago, and my impression was that there is still a lot to be researched on the subject. For instance, most studies are only historical and don?t analyze the codes from a linguistic or cryptographic perspective. ? The Comanche Code Talkers of World War II? by William C. Meadows is a fascinating book that lists all the Native languages used by the military during WWI and WWII. Most were used occasionally, and only a few ones had actual codes (Navajo and Comanche for instance). I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn?t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs?? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn?t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely ?new? and ?unknown? language)? According to the sources I consulted, none of these codes was ever broken, not even the Navajo?s (even though it was used by several hundred people over an extended period of time). Most books on the subject simply state that this was so because Navajo is an incredibly difficult language. Is that a sufficient reason? In comparison, it only took the American cryptographs a few weeks to break the new Japanese codes (after they had changed them), but they spoke Japanese! I am not at all an expert on the code talkers, but I remember having finished writing my paper with many unanswered questions (maybe some of you could answer them!)! I can also email my bibliography and paper to anyone interested. Sincerely, Ivan Ozbolt ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant [Granta at edgehill.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:24 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Wed Apr 30 13:19:54 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers In-Reply-To: <4AC54655F1775541BFD058DA4695D5747DB18673E8@XMAIL3.sooner.net.ou.edu> Message-ID: Hi Ivan, I would love a copy of your paper and bibliography, if you don't mind. > I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn?t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs?? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn?t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely ?new? and ?unknown? language)? Analyzing a previously unknown language should certainly be doable if you have speakers to work with within a human context. But going entirely off brief text or sound sequences, I wonder how you would even start? Wouldn't the problem be much like deciphering a dead language from ancient texts without a Rosetta Stone? Maya has been deciphered only recently after a hundred years or so of trying, even though Maya is still spoken. I think Etruscan, Minoan Linear A, and the Indus Valley script are still pending. Thanks for your post. Rory "Ozbolt, Ivan C." Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu 04/30/2008 06:06 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.colorado.edu To "siouan at lists.colorado.edu" cc Subject RE: Frida Hahn - Code Talkers Hello all, I wrote a paper on the code talkers for a linguistic anthropology class at the University of Oklahoma a year ago, and my impression was that there is still a lot to be researched on the subject. For instance, most studies are only historical and don?t analyze the codes from a linguistic or cryptographic perspective. ? The Comanche Code Talkers of World War II? by William C. Meadows is a fascinating book that lists all the Native languages used by the military during WWI and WWII. Most were used occasionally, and only a few ones had actual codes (Navajo and Comanche for instance). I also remember an article that is an in-depth analysis of the Navajo code and points out that from a cryptographic perspective the code had actually several weaknesses. Thus it is not so clear why it was never broken, even though the Japanese had no documentation of the language. Couldn?t they have linguists working on the language and combine their research with the cryptographs?? To which extent does the absence of documentation on a language penalize cryptographs in breaking a code (knowing that it doesn?t take very long for a linguist to analyze and inventory a completely ?new? and ?unknown? language)? According to the sources I consulted, none of these codes was ever broken, not even the Navajo?s (even though it was used by several hundred people over an extended period of time). Most books on the subject simply state that this was so because Navajo is an incredibly difficult language. Is that a sufficient reason? In comparison, it only took the American cryptographs a few weeks to break the new Japanese codes (after they had changed them), but they spoke Japanese! I am not at all an expert on the code talkers, but I remember having finished writing my paper with many unanswered questions (maybe some of you could answer them!)! I can also email my bibliography and paper to anyone interested. Sincerely, Ivan Ozbolt ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant [Granta at edgehill.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:24 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Frida Hahn Dear all: The Osprey military history series has a book about the Navajo Code Talkers, though it's rather light on linguistics. It does refer to the Comanche Code Talkers too, though not to the cases of Choctaw and Mikasuki code talk that I've come across, nor yet to the use of Omaha-Ponca in the Korean War. Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 04/30/08 3:02 am >>> Neat. Is there a definitive book on all this? There certainly should be. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Tom Leonard Sent: Tue 4/29/2008 12:14 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Frida Hahn >> I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. << Comanche Code Talkers were in the European Theater. Most were on Omaha Beach on D-day. For the most part, Comanche Code Talkers were given very little recognition compared with the Navajo Talkers in the Pacific Theater. BTW, there were some Ponca and Omaha Code Talkers used during the Korean War (along with some incredibly funny stories). Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Tom, > > I've heard this story also, and it's interesting that Oklahoma tribes have analogous stories. I heard it as an explanation why the Code Talkers were only used in the Pacific Theater during the war -- the military was afraid the Germans already knew too much. > > It would be surprising if Jewish scholars participated in this intelligence gathering, but you just never know. . . . Frida Hahn could have been her legend name. These stories ought to be collected and the truth run down. > > If this is true, there should also be declassified Abwehr records of it somewhere in the Bundesrepublik today. They would name names and might even be an interesting source of linguistic data from that period! > > I guess the definitive history of the Code Talkers is still yet to be written. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 14:33:11 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:33:11 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Yes. And don't forget that Frank Siebert (note German name) was arrested by the FBI in Oklahoma in 1941 while working briefly on Quapaw. They seemed to think he was un-American. Bob -------------------------------------- > As to German linguists working in the 20s and 30s on Oklahoma languages and going back to Germany, wasn't that the case with Gunter Wagner, who worked on Yuchi? Anthony From rankin at ku.edu Wed Apr 30 14:54:31 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:54:31 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob From jmcbride at kawnation.com Wed Apr 30 16:39:07 2008 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:39:07 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been recognized for their contributions to the war effort. I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, aren't getting any younger. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: RE: Code talkers. I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob