From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 04:59:56 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:59:56 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha Message-ID: Dear List: Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. Thanks, Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 7 05:55:34 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:55:34 +1100 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) Message-ID: New Years greetings, friends, Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of yesterday, and of tomorrow.] I believe it be a particularly fine example of the many writerly virtues of the work of two exceptionally gifted literary artists, one in the English language. This particular passage, imho, shows the styles of both writers at their best, as well as a constituting a splendid example of cultivated modern written Lakhota : Ms. Ann Nolan CLARK (1898-1995), [Link :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Nolan_Clark] and the other in Lakhota, Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK (possibly. born c.1855, or 1875 - prob. the former, if he was in fact the father of Frank Fools Crow's wife.) As stated here earlier, this man was an Oglala elder & long- experienced translator of the 1920's, '30's & 40's, who had been engaged by the then Bureau of Indian Affairs to translate some of Clark's graded school readers. This particular book seems to me to be the most advanced one, from the aspect of complexity of language & psychology. The earlier ones in the series seem simpler. To set the scene a little, the boy LOUIE HEH^LOGECA (Louie Hollowhorn) and his father JOE, a poor, but honest cattleman, are enjoying a visit to the "Sioux Country Fair" (Lakhota Okhiinyanke KiN). Like country people the world over, they cast a discerning but wistful eye over the various winning exhibits, including in this instance, the prize-bull! ( To save time with the shift-key, I will forgo writing the nasal "N" symbol, write "z^" as "j", use "g" rather than "g^", and write "s^" as "sh" from hereon in, but apart from that I'll try to transcribe as precisely as I am able to. Hope this inconsistency will not prove too annoying!) Louie says to his Dad, Joe : "Ate wanyanki yetho, hinyete kin hetan na sinte kin hehan iyagleya chuwi kin lila blaska yelo?" Joe answers : "Taku oyas'in iyojula thanchan kithun welo. Thabloka kin le etan optaye washte wan ichagapi okihi hecha yelo!" [="Father do you see how level his back is from his shoulders to his tail?" Joe's answer : "He has everything, alright. There is a bull to sire a herd!"] (At this point, the wife & mother, MARIE HEH^LOGECA, regards father and son with pensive eyes, and reflects to herself) : Marie Heh^logeca hingnaku na chinza kin kici lila iawanyank wichakhuwa he. Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. "Tokheshkhe" echin, "Lakhota kin taku wanji aiyotanh^ci chinpi khesh t'inza yuhapi kta okihipi shni? Le wichasha mithawa kin waniyetu wikcemna top ptegleshka optaye wan wichayuichagin kte h^cin, na lila wowashi echun, na wanwichaglagye h^ci sanp conala ayapi, na tonakecapi kin he wiyawapi kin waniyetu yamni ihunniyan sotapi. Na anpetu kin lehanyan taku yuha he? Takuni h^ci yuha shni. Ptegleshka opawinge wikcemna wanji wicayuha tka k'un etanhan tahalo nahuhu e kayesh yuha shni," echin najin he. [=Marie Hollowhorn watched her husband and son. She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager longing of the boy. "Why is it," she thought, "that Indians never have what they want most? Here is my man who worked for forty years building a herd and had to see it dwindle and die in as many months. What has he now? He has nothing. Not even the hides and the bones are left from a herd of a thousand head!"] (Among Marie's answers to her own question, are the following thoughts on her husband's "undoing" & lack of conventional "success" : his great sense of duty, and respect for traditional Lakota community-based values, in a word : his essential decency & integrity of character. Joe Hehlogeca, you see, has been a paragon of the traditional Lakhota virtues, especially Generosity (Wachanteognakapi). I found this incredibly moving, and indeed amazingly empathetic, considering it was written in the 1940's by a BIA teacher! -C.B.) : Tkha hingnaku kin Lakhota kin he un hecheca shni kin he akhesh wicala. Thiyata wichithanwokshan Washicu pteyuha wichasha thipi kin hena Lakhota wah^panicapi kin insh eya iyehanyan wah^panicapi. Washicu kin lena insh eya ptegleshka optaye thanka wichayuhapi na lila awanwichaglakapi, na echekche akih^'ant'api, oblaye makhoche amagaju shni un cha gu na shpan chankhe, nainsh osmaka kin iyojugjula owashme kin echekche ichipahahaya ptegleshka that'eca kin tasakyela h^paya hiyeye. Ho hel Lakhota kin ishnala wakhiphapi shni, Lakhota pte yuhapi kin ecelapi shni. Tkha tuwe oyas'in he akhiphapi. [=But honesty told her that it was not because he was an Indian. The white ranchers around them were as poor as the Indians were. these white men had owned herds too and had watched them starve to death on the parched rainless plains or had found them piled in layers of frozen carcasses in some snow-filled ravine. These things did not happen only to Indians, only to Indian owned cattle. they happened to all.] (It would be fascinating to know Afraid-Of-Hawk's thoughts as he translated that passage! Might his feelings have been mixed? I do not presume to know, of course, but those are thought-provoking observations, are they not? -C.B.) Shunkakhan oshpaye wan nakun tukte ehan wichayuhapi tkha cha he kiksuye. Lena, nakun, iyuha tokhah'anpi. Ho akhe he ichunhan wowicakhe un hena hechetu chankhe akhesh heogna wicalaic'iye. Ungna nakun waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na omakha opta puze kin, na taku hecheca wicashepi kin hena kho wanice k'eyas ungna hingnaku kin hechenash anpetu kin lehanyan shunkakhan nicin kte sece. [=She remembered the herds of horses they had owned once. These, too, were gone. But here again honesty made her admit truth to herself. Even if there had been no blizzards nor droughts nor hard times her husband might not have owned horses today.] Tohanl chinca yukhanpi channa iyena hokshichanlkiyapi na sunkotuh^'anpi, na thakojakpaku yunkhan channa, na chincapi kin tohanl wanji okichiyuze echunpi channa hena el wawokihanpi na otuh^'anpi na wih^peyapi, na tohantuke esha thiwahe thawa kin el oiyokiphi wanji el wichahi kin hena iyohila el sunkotuh'an s'a cha hena iyuha kiksuya najin he. Hona hehanl nakun tohanl thiwahe thawa kin el chinca nainsh thitakuyepi wanji wichunt'e woakhipha yukhan channa wochante shica un shunkotuh^'anpi yukhe. Wana lehantu kin shunkakhan nainsh ptegleshka unmani yuhapi shni. [= She remembered the horses he had given away when each of her sons were born, when grandchildren had come, at marriages, at feasts, at any time that joy had entered their home. And again he had given away his horses to show his grief when death had taken members of his family. Now they had neither horses nor cattle.] Waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na thate thanka, nainsh oyate thawicoh^'anpi kin , hena ecela un hecheca shni. Tkha taku oyas'in un hecheca. Mniwanca khowakatan okichize thanka k'un hehan lila wichoshkinciye, pte waniyanpi wichayuhapi kin thalo yutapi kta cha un wiyophewicakiya iyowinwichakhiyapi na iyowichapashtakapi. Tanyan mazaska iyuwinpi, tkha mazaska kin wiyopheya glusotapi na ptegleshka optaye thanka ota k'un conala oglaptapi. [=It had not been only the blizzard, the tornadoes, the customs of the people. It had been everything. In the boom days during the world war they had been encouraged to sell their cattle for beef. It had brought in money, but the money had been spent and the herds depleted.] Ho he iyohakap taku oyas'in khul iyaye k'un he e, na omakha puze k'un he e, na thate s'a k'un hena hiyawichagle kin hechun. Ptegleshka optaye tonakel owichaglaptapi k'un hena hehanl t'api. Wana lila waniyetu ota thate s'a kin he oblaye makhoche thowashte tka k'un ohiniyan thate, chankhe makhoche kin akanl ooshkinciye washte tkha k'un he ataya thate kin ikaphan ih^peye. [=Then had come the Depression and the drought and the winds. What had remained of the herds had died. For years now the winds had blown over the plains, beating to dust the life of the plains.] Ho hetanhan ptegleshka ichah^wichayapi wichoh^'an kin he iyatakunishni kin he wowicakhe s'elecheca. Hehan ooshkinciye k'un hena hecheya takuni kte shni sel? Hiya! Okihiphicashni! Inchin, wichasha otoiyohila thonipi kin he pte ichah^yapi kin hecela wachinyanpi kin heun. Wichoni thawapi kin he e. Ho cha he un etanhan tokhetuke c'eyas oihanke kte sni. Tokhe esha magaju s'a ni! Tkha magajushni un. Chankhe pheli kin ataya sheca. [=Could it be true that cattle raising was doomed? That its day was done? No! No! (lit. 'impossible!') Cattle was all they had to live for. It was their life. It must not end. If only rains would come! but there was no rain. The grass was dead.] ========================================================== I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as much as I do! I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or corrections members may care to make. Best regards, Clive Bloomfield. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 12:01:49 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:01:49 -0600 Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS Message-ID: In Ken Miner's 1984 Winnebago Field Lexicon (June, 1984), he listed 6 pages of verb roots. Most roots are similar with Ioway, Otoe and of course, other Siouan languages. Is there a simple formula, perhaps, to convert the roots to fit their Ioway, Otoe counterparts/ cognates?? Often in trying to find an IO root equivalent among the WINN roots, I run into discrepancies and other problems. Although my inquiry may be naive, perhaps, Jonathan, or whosoever can respond. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Jan 7 16:03:37 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:03:37 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pon'ka i'e du'ba btha pi. Tom Leonard Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Dear List: > Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other > individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am > being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. > Thanks, > Jimm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Jan 7 16:45:26 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:45:26 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha Message-ID: Jimm - you could include my name if you want, though I haven't been particularly "active" in this area lately. Catherine Rudin >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 01/06/08 10:59 PM >>> Dear List: Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. Thanks, Jimm From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jan 7 22:05:21 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:05:21 -0600 Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS Message-ID: Jimm, If the root ends in the syllable -ke, replace it with -ka instead. If the root ends in a consonant, add an -e at the end. Replace the following syllables: Change kara to gra kere to gre kiri to gri koro to gro kuru to gru para to bra pere to bre piri to bri poro to bro puru to bru sara to sra (same with other identical vowels) shara to shra " " " " " xara to xra " Generally speaking, move the accent back one syllable to the left. This should get you pretty close to I/O/M. There are a few other things. And, oh yes, the three nasal vowels belong in the above sets of CVCV syllables where the two vowels are identical too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 1/7/2008 6:01 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS In Ken Miner's 1984 Winnebago Field Lexicon (June, 1984), he listed 6 pages of verb roots. Most roots are similar with Ioway, Otoe and of course, other Siouan languages. Is there a simple formula, perhaps, to convert the roots to fit their Ioway, Otoe counterparts/ cognates?? Often in trying to find an IO root equivalent among the WINN roots, I run into discrepancies and other problems. Although my inquiry may be naive, perhaps, Jonathan, or whosoever can respond. Jimm From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jan 7 22:16:06 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:16:06 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From jmcbride at kawnation.com Tue Jan 8 16:02:21 2008 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:02:21 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 18:08:51 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:08:51 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: I didn't check out the site before forwarding the info. I assumed that plain vanilla "Linguistics" was covered and that some idiot in DC put the "astrobiology" there for some reason known only to him or the committee he represents. My Star Trek education tells me that the study of life elsewhere in the universe is Exo-biology. Who knew that Geo. Bush had already decided otherwise? I just figured that many of the languages we study would be covered in any program with the name "Lewis and Clark" in it. The linguist, Charles Hockett, once published an article with the approximate title of "How to Learn Martian" in a sci-fi book edited (if memory serves) by one Martin Greenberg. It was actually an elementary descriptive linguistics course (find the phonemes, then the morphemes, word boundaries, etc.). Maybe it needs updating so we can all understand how Martian manupulates "spec of IQ". ;-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 10:02 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 18:27:38 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:27:38 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: Oops, sorry, This is APS in Philadelphia, not some govt. program in DC. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 12:08 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I didn't check out the site before forwarding the info. I assumed that plain vanilla "Linguistics" was covered and that some idiot in DC put the "astrobiology" there for some reason known only to him or the committee he represents. My Star Trek education tells me that the study of life elsewhere in the universe is Exo-biology. Who knew that Geo. Bush had already decided otherwise? I just figured that many of the languages we study would be covered in any program with the name "Lewis and Clark" in it. The linguist, Charles Hockett, once published an article with the approximate title of "How to Learn Martian" in a sci-fi book edited (if memory serves) by one Martin Greenberg. It was actually an elementary descriptive linguistics course (find the phonemes, then the morphemes, word boundaries, etc.). Maybe it needs updating so we can all understand how Martian manupulates "spec of IQ". ;-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 10:02 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 21:35:53 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:35:53 -0600 Subject: FW: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: This from Armik: ________________________________ From: Mirzayan Armik [mailto:mirzayan at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 12:54 PM To: Justin McBride Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Hi Justin and Bob, Looking at the APS Lewis and Clark Fund website, I think that the general scope of the fund DOES cover "standard" linguistics. It's listed in the disciplines they mention: archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology. Since the grants are not just limited ot the above list, I think the part about Astrobiology is a separate note, specifically directed to researchers working in projects that are speicfic to Astrobiology. Although, I don't think they were very clear in their note about making this clear. As I understand it - not being an expert on this - Astrobiology is the study of the origin, evlution, and conditions for life-formation on Earth and elsewhere in the Universe. It is a cross-disciplinary study, so I suppose one could include linguitics as a component of it, though I had not thought of that possiblity. The main concerns of Astrobiology seem to be related to the questions of the conditions for basic formation and subsequent maintainance of life in a given environment. One looks at things like places on Earth now that might be similar to the conditions of the "early Earth" (whatever we think early Earth might have been like), and also at environments in other places in the Solar System - Mars, or on/in one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn - which might be, or in the past might have been, more-or-less "friendly" to life formation, regardless of how complex that life-form is or might have been. (I tried sending this message to the Siouan List and it bounced off saying it couldn't post to the list from my email address ...). best, Armik ------ Armik Mirzayan Lingusitics UCB Boulder, Colorado, USA On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Justin McBride wrote: > Bob, > > Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my > guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that > in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. > > I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of > speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien > life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that > one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more > alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed > from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: > Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. > > But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on > the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's > music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) > > -Justin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM > Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work > > > I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be > interested in this. > > Bob > > > The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research > American Philosophical Association (APS) > URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm > Deadline: February 15 > > > Scope > The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford > Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a > benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) > encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and > data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct > observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large > dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, > ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will > not be restricted to these fields. > > Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue > projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program > description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field > Research in Astrobiology. > > Eligibility > Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, > master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants > who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval > of two years. > > Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters > of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the > proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be > limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. > > The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research > anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. > institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. > > When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety > measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, > the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training > that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. > > Awards > Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of > several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the > individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but > the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant > recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. > > Deadline > February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and > beyond. > > It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and > letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an > e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. > > Requirements > Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her > trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with > notification of an award. > > How to Apply > Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility > of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, > Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. > > Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing > smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The > completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to > applications at amphilsoc.org. > > Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them > of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to > lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been > sent in time. > > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Jan 9 04:14:17 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:14:17 -0600 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as much as I do! I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or corrections members may care to make. Clive: It may be a bit much to expect your level of appreciation to be wide spread among a group of professional linguists, whose primary focus is on analysis and language dynamics, so you will have to look to the exceptions. I myself do like to the reviews how contemporary literature is expressed in the Lakota language, as I am involved to a much lesser degree how modern literature might be composed in similar languages. Most of the community languages study is directed towards basic communication, with few instances that I have come upon that encourages, even rewards oral or written composition on contemporary subjects. It is left to the imagination, as to how Native languages could blossom if the notion would become widespread. So for my part, you can continue to share your Native prose discoveries. Jimm PS: Are you aware of what became of Emil AFH and Ann NC, and if they had further opportunities to apply their word craft? ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Bloomfield To: SIOUAN LIST LIST Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:55 PM Subject: Re : A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of yesterday, and of tomorrow.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 10 07:25:29 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:25:29 +1100 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: <35B962DFDBF249C285263126A40F68D9@JGHP> Message-ID: Jimm, Thank you so much for this generous-spirited & thoughtful reply! Your note of caution to me is obviously well-considered, and straightforwardly made, and I appreciate that. I did realize that I was addressing a group of trained linguistic analysts & professional Siouanists, rather than an audience of literary aesthetes, and yet, in a way, you are exactly the people I've long been wanting to talk to about this, and to learn more from! I wish to subject my intuitions to the disciplined & rational light of linguistic science. May I explain myself a little further? : As I say, I am acutely conscious of a pronounced emotive component in my enthusiasm for the rich Lakhota style of Emil AFH, but I wish to counterbalance & critique that possible bias with as rigorous a linguistic analysis of AFH's Lakhota vocabulary & syntax, as his texts can possibly bear. It is about much more, for me, than merely confirming my private prejudices & inevitable biasses. I'd like to ascertain whether, (as I'm now strongly inclined to believe) this man Emil AFH. is a significant & remarkable, indeed "sui generis", Lakhotaiyapi author. My personal "discovery" of his quality occurred sometime after I'd begun to seriously & systematically apply myself to the study of Lakhota & Dakota, about 5 -6 years back, using B&D (1941), Buechel's 1939 Gr. (1939), Bruce Ingham's 2001 "Lakota" monograph, Rood & Taylor's CULP material & Sketch, MA & PhD theses such as those by Willem DeReuse & Berthold Simons, Internet sites such Jan Ullrich's invaluable one, and various journal papers from IJAL by many scholars here. Having also read with close attention by then, a great deal of of Buechel's Lakhota Bible History stories(1924), all of Ella C. Deloria's (1932) Dakota Tales, and as much of the Bushotter corpus as I could manage, I next acquired a copy of "Watakpeya Tanka" ("The Great Crusader"), his 1925 translation of an English version by an American Jesuit Fr. Bernard Wildenhues S.J. of a German language abridgement (1922) of Fr. George Schurhammer S.J.'s voluminous biography of the Roman-Catholic Missionary Saint of the Far East, St. Francis Xavier. I have read & studied all three of those texts now, and am in the process of a close reading & rereading of every one of those Lakhota language BIA readers, translated by E. AFH. I was utterly astonished to find, in the first few chapters of "WT", evocative Lakhota language descriptions of intimidatingly majestic Mediaeval castles on mountain tops in the Basque country of NE Spain, (Xavier's stamping ground, as you will no doubt know). I think it was then that I realized that I'd stumbled across something quite extraordinary. E. AFH's Lakhota style seemed so difficult, &, in some ways, unlike any of the Lakhota I was already familiar with, both in subject matter, vocab. and to a certain extent syntactically. That encounter so fired my imagination & stimulated the intellect, that I became determined to learn more about him, and analyse his fascinatingly difficult Lakhota. I'd like to tell you a little more about my personal background, to enable you & other members here to form a clear picture of "where I'm coming from", as they say. I realize that excessive & gratuitous personal revelations are not encouraged on what must remain a list for scholars, but perhaps just this once, it may be necessary & relevant for me to clarify matters, & tell a little of what I'm on about? I dare say that, as one might reasonably expect in a professional community, most of you on the list would be well acquainted, through conferences, shared professional experiences, etc., over many years. I would like to introduce myself a little, & to get to know you all somewhat better. I am not (obviously) a professional linguist, & do not presume to be your equals in depth of knowledge & sophistication in that particular discipline. However, I have been fortunate enough to have been on the 'receiving-end' of some excellent training, under the 'old' (60's & 70's), quite exacting, university régime/ dispensation in the field of Classics (Ancient/Mod.Greek & Latin), esp. in Classical Philology and textual criticism. I was privileged to have been trained, by lecturers & senior academics who had earned their "wings" at Ox-bridge or the U.S. 'Ivy League', to take a classical text 'apart', parsing each word precisely, and by constantly analysing the syntactic contruction of its clauses & long "periods" minutely, as one goes through it. We also had to learn composition/translation in those languages, an art which has mostly now become a thing of the past, practically everywhere, nowadays. To me, its linguistic value alone in taking one "inside" the language, so to speak, made it well worth the effort! So I am very at home with getting my philological "teeth", so to speak, into more or less demanding & complex texts such as Homer's "Iliad/Odyssey", Pindar's "Odes", Aeschylus' "Oresteia", Sophocles' "Oedipus Tyrannus", Horace's "Odes', or Virgil's "Aeneid" - masterpieces to which , naturally, it is difficult, (not to say impossible!), not to have a frequently earth-shattering emotional reaction, as well as sheer intellectual pleasure! I have also studied Italian at tertiary level to the point of reading Leopardi, & Dante's Inferno, and have been studying many languages of diverse families for some decades, at least since I was a brow-beaten Catholic altar boy, tremblingly repeating the Latin responses during the old Mass from about 1958 onwards! Basically, I want to learn to apply those analytical skills, to these texts in Lakhota/Dakota/Nakota/Nakoda, in particular, and eventually to learn as much as possible, about the other languages belonging to this fascinating family! I have learned to be on guard against possible Eurocentric linguistic "blinkers", having studied a few non-Indo E. languages such as Finnish, Turkish in some depth, & a measure of Georgian & Classical Arabic as well. It seems to me that these 1940's BIA reader's translated by E. AFH are a potential "well of (Lakhotaiyapi) undefiled", as Dryden said about the Middle English (mutatis mutandis) of Chaucer's CanterburyTales (I think). So many of the words in Afraid-Of-Hawk, EITHER do not occur at all in Buechel-Manhart -- I do understand that Rigg's works & B-Md. was a groundbreaking, pioneering work, and would not wish to be thought of as belittling Fr. Buech.'s fine achievement -- OR else one has to hunt them up, & do some (hopefully) educated guesswork on the evidence of any cognate roots, using such knowledge as one may have acquired of the laws of Lakhota Word-building (esp. gratia B&D). I find the "discovery" entailed by this process continually fascinating, and sometimes even exhilarating! I haven't derived such intellectual & emotional pleasure from a text, since grappling with the rigours of Thucydidean speeches, which any Classicist will tell you can be horrendously difficult, even for very experienced scholars! I would submit that there is a treasure house of new vocabulary, & perhaps new light shed on some aspects of lakhota syntax, to be gained from close study of E. AFH's texts. For instance only last night, I found the word : "woguonazeye" / wog^uonazeye/ (presumably with accent on initial syllable (?). E.A. Kennard did not transcribe word accents ) used for "COFFE-POT" [Brave Ag.The Enemy" 1944, p.163]. I had already learned, thanks to Bruce's estimable efforts, the word "wíkhalye". Emil AFH's word is not to be found in B-Md., or Riggs, but "og^ú" : 'scraps; dregs; coffee grounds' is! Nor does the item "onazeye" occur there, but, sure enough, 'nazéyA' 'to filter' is there, so with some pondering on the functions & nuances of those locative prefixes, again by the grace of Buechel, B&D, Riggs and Ingham, it is not too difficult to work out how the word came to be used with that meaning. Two further examples : the reflexive verb 'wicalaic'iyA' <'wicala/ in the sense of 'induce oneself believe/persuade oneself--->admit/ confess to oneself (a home truth)' occurs in the 4th para. of that extended excerpt I posted from BAtE [p.19] the other day, but is nowhere in Buechel, or Riggs. In the 2nd, paragraph, [Ibid. same page] : "waNwichaglagyeh^ci" which appears to have an adverbial sense something like "under his very eyes", or perhaps better : "under their owner's very gaze" (his herds died away). Clearly, from "WaNyaNkA". Could it be here a truncated or "frozen" Possessive-Dative verb-form, used ADVERBIALLY (adverb- equivalent? of accompanying circumstance? a 'Participle' as Buechel would have it) to qualify that principal clause verb? ["... (ptegleshka optaye waN).....saNp conala AYAPI"]. [=under their owner's very (-h^ci") gaze, a buffalo herd dwindled way.] Lastly, I would like to say that any Lakhota writer who is capable of opening a novella, as Emil AFH does in BAtE [p.5], with a dramatically vivid scene of a car screeching to a halt in a cloud of dust, as a teenage boy leaps athletically from the moving vehicle before it arrives, in florid Lakhota, has won me over for life! ;D I think he must have had a truly remarkable mind! An artist with words, in my opinion, whose life, given his elderly status in the early '40's, must encompassed profound traditional knowledge, in addition to substantial experience of the modern world of the early to mid XXc.! The whole concept of Native American writers producing their own literature in their own language, e.g. poetry (as with the wonderful Lucie Tapahonso, or Rex Lee Jim for Navajo, mingled with English) using the native tongue, or biographies, or novellas (even in translation) like Emil AFH, really excites me. Yet I suppose from a publisher's mundane angle, they wouldn't exactly 'leap off the shelf', as they say? If only Emil had written an Autobiography (à la Bushotter), or a Lakhota novel! His long life must have been so interesting. To answer your last inquiry Jimm, I do not know exactly when Emil AFH died, but I think that he may have been the same Emil who is mentioned in "Fools Crow" by Th.Mails, as the father in law in Chief Frank. If that is he, then he was possibly born around 1855, which is also remarkable because if so, he must have been in his 80's when translating those readers, and had truly, by then, been a denizen of two cultural universes! Perhaps that may explain the difficulty & richness of much of his (old fashioned?) vocabulary? I have acquired all of his BIA texts, as well as two seemingly relatively unremarkable articles in English by him from the old "Indian Sentinel" from 1932, and 1943 respectively. I wrote to the Archivist at the Oglala Lakota College, last year, but received no reply. Perhaps they thought I must be what we Aussies call a "ratbag" ("crack-pot" in American, I understand)! Not to worry. ;) As for Ann NOLAN CLARK, here is a Wiki article for you :  Hope I have made my perspective & purposes here a little bit clearer now! Next time I contribute, I'll hold back on the autobiographical detail! ;) So, thanks again for giving me a hearing, Jimm Good Tracks - if I could say that in Oto, Ioway, or Missouri, (or Pawnee, or Winnebago), I'd have done so forthwith! ;) Maybe someday I will. I have been studying with great interest, the folk tales & letters on that terrific Omaha-Ponca website, and will continue to do so! Maybe that will take me at least one step nearer to your Chiwere branch! I was intending to learn enough Biloxi to write to Dave Kaufman : I ordered the Einaudi grammar on Interlibrary loan from Sydney University's Fisher library, but was dismayed to learn that the book had been stolen from the shelf! So we can surmise that there is at least one other dedicated Siouanist (if not Lakotanist) in the Great South Land! Best regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 09/01/2008, at 3:14 PM, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as > much as I do! > > I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, > I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate > way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or > corrections members may care to make. > > Clive: > It may be a bit much to expect your level of appreciation to be > wide spread among a group of professional linguists, whose primary > focus is on analysis and language dynamics, so you will have to > look to the exceptions. I myself do like to the reviews how > contemporary literature is expressed in the Lakota language, as I > am involved to a much lesser degree how modern literature might be > composed in similar languages. Most of the community languages > study is directed towards basic communication, with few instances > that I have come upon that encourages, even rewards oral or written > composition on contemporary subjects. It is left to the > imagination, as to how Native languages could blossom if the notion > would become widespread. So for my part, you can continue to share > your Native prose discoveries. > Jimm > PS: Are you aware of what became of Emil AFH and Ann NC, and if > they had further opportunities to apply their word craft? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Clive Bloomfield > To: SIOUAN LIST LIST > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:55 PM > Subject: Re : A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) > > Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary > quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the > wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) > It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN > itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann > Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : > > "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN > he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." > > [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of > yesterday, and of tomorrow.] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ann Nolan Clark [Wiki].webloc Type: application/applefile Size: 813 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 13 03:40:48 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:40:48 +1100 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) Message-ID: Here is that Lakhotaiyapi description of the mediaeval Spanish castle, and the rest of the brief (one-page) first chapter of the above well-known translation by Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK in 1925, together with the English original text (upon which it is obviously based) by Fr. Bernard H. WILDENHUES, S.J., [American Press, NY, 1925], together an attempt at a more literal version, accompanied by a few philological notes. What was I expecting? Nothing. What am I hoping for? Perhaps for some enterprising postgrad., or post-doc to be inspired/urged to do a research paper, or even maybe a thesis-length study of this unique writer's language, life & times. What do I want? : I just wish to share these wonderful texts with the people equipped to appreciate them, both as Lakhota language, and (as I would argue), as genuine indigenous literature, (if in a pioneering Lakhota genre). After all, there are English translations/versions such as the Elizabethan George Chapman's Iliad, or Sir Thomas North's famous version of Plutarch's Lives, or Alexander Pope's Homer, or John Dryden's Aeneid which are judged as worthy compositions & works of English literature in their own right, rather than as being merely translations. Including North's (which in any case was based on Amyot's French translation, not on the original Greek -but they were good enough to captivate Shakespeare's imagination!), these are all frequently grossly inaccurate, but they "work" marvellously as English. Nobody seems to care much about their pedantic accuracy. Even so, I humbly submit that Emil AFH's Lakhota versions also have an intrinsic value, which transcends the mere ancillary or derivative category of 'translations'! I would also suggest that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever written such Lakhota, either before or since. It is almost like having Dumas (père) in Lakhota! Chapter Heading : "XAVIER THIWAHE KIN" (On facing [Page 6] : illustration of a large castle) Emil AFH text (Published in trad. orthography, - in interest of clarity, I will endeavour to insert all aspirates, but am sure to miss some. Apologies in advance!) : Miniwanca khoakatan Spayola makhoche el wihinaphe kin iwaziyata Navarra makhowashpe el akichita oti wan woimnayan he. Xavier thiwahe kin he woitanyankel thawapi oonakijin na owanyeye ko thankthanka ehash 'nahasekse' wohinyansya thaninyan akanlkanl hiyeye. Wildenhues : "In the province of Navarre, in north-eastern Spain, stood a mighty fortress, proud possession of the house of Xavier, fairly bristling with lofty parapets and frowning turrets." Another version with some observations : "Away beyond the Ocean, in the north-eastern region of Navarre, in the land of Spain, stands an imposing fortress (lit. "stands famously/ powerfully-->imposingly"). This is the fastness, their proud possession, of the Xavier clan, and its great battlements also stand out here & there upon (its summits), as it were, brutally conspicuous & stern." [NOTES : Thought "oonakijin" was probably a noun (with doubled locative intial o- prefix) meaning "place of refuge, defensive vantage point/shelter", hence-->"stronghold/fastness/retreat (n.)". The precise syntactical structure of the second sentence, in particular the word order of the pronominal possessive 'thawapi' seems most interesting. That word appears to be part of a predicate after 'thiwahe kin', and to be (nominally) qualifying 'oonakijin'. The noun 'owanyeye' (B-Md. : 'porthole/loophole', would appear to correspond to the ramparts on the battlements, from behind which, defenders might discharge missiles. Might it also, conceivably, refer to the loopholes for arrow- shooting, in the catle-walls? Reduplication of Postposition 'akanl', as also use of verb 'hiyeyA', seems to imply the plurality of these ramparts/loopholes/arrow-slits. That intriguing phrase "ehas nahasekse" (as if excessively bristling) : probably /ehash nah^a sekse/ based on Stative verb root "nah^a" 'be rough-->'bristle/be bristly/stick out', seems to allude to the brutal & menacing aspect of the ramparts/battlements.] Emil AFH text : Anpetu lehantukesha hanke aphiyapi yunkhan ehank'ehan akichita k'eya mazaogle kithontonpi ca wiphe iyayuzapi na inyan oomani kin ogna iyowasyela shna s'e ounyanpi k'un hehan s'elecheca. Pyrenees h^e kin ikhinyela wachoka wan Roncevalles eya chajeyatapi ca hetan kaiyuzeya akhanlya wan el othan'inyan he, hetu cha Roland ohitika Charlemagne awanyanka wah^tekeshni un na echel Moors oyate kin kitanh^ci owe ktepi. Wildenhues : "Even today in its state of partial reconstruction it calls up pictures of those glorious days of old, when men in armoured mail made its arches ring with the clash of steel on the cobbled pavement. It stands on an eminence not far from the Pyrenees Mountains and the valley of Roncevalles, where Roland, undaunted paladin of the mighty Charlemagne, was slain by the Moors." A literal version : "Although nowadays (the castle) is in a state of semi-repair (lit. "part/half they-repair- it"), it (still) has the aspect it had back then, when old-time warriors wearing suits of armour (iron breastplates?), brandished their weapons, and, raised the echoes, so to speak, as they infested (lit. 'inhabited') its stone walkways. It was in a (mountain) valley, in the vicinity of the Pyreneees, easily visible from a vantage-point not far distant, that Roland, (the Emperor) Charlemagne's valiant & resourceful paladin stood sentinel (lit. "was capably watching"), and accordingly was, in the end, massacred by the Moors (in 778 AD)." (lit. "they bloodily killed him") [NOTES : Could reduplicated verb there : "kithonthon", be a collateral/dialect form of "kic'un" 'wear', or just of the general verb-formant : '-kiton/kitun' /kithoN.kithuN/? Here, the word would seem to have the sense of 'to put on; don'. Perhaps E. AFH has coined a new verb "mazaoglekithun" 'to don/wear a suit of armour, or cuirasse', for the occasion? Suspect the "inyan oomani" are the "stone walkways/gangways" (on/ along the battlements/castle walls), rather than just any "stone pathways". That adverb "iyowasyela" does not appear in Buech-Manh., but would appear to have a sense something like 'clanging/resounding/echoing'. The root seems to be the same as in the word 'yaiyowaza' 'echo' . Translated adverb 'kitanh^ci' (pace B.-Md.) as : 'at last/'in the end'(after an arduous struggle), rather than ''with difficulty/ hardly', in the context. But perhaps both layers of meaning are present. The senses are obviously akin.] Emil AFH Text : Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Doña Maria de Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. Wildenhues : "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Doña Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." A literal version : "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ Francis." (lit. "Francis saying they-named-him." [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] Emil AFH Text : Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. Wildenhues : "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, and was faithful to the last, though trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for his loyalty." A literal version : "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was that he had incurred the estimation in (the eyes of) King John of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting', so that he stood by him till the (bitter) end ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in recompense." [NOTES : A most difficult paragraph, (apart from first) imho. Took 'ohutkanke' as prob. a collateral form based on a common etymon shared by : 'huta/ohute/hutkan/ohutkan' 'root'-->'scion'. Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". The sentence's Subject seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [in the eyes of] King John (dir,obj.?), of being one who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty and the precise subordinating construction governed by that Causative : "kiye". Would argue that 'bitter' (end) is implied by context. Also wondered whether the reduplication (if that is what it is) in "waphiphisni" was intensive : "(He) was extremely unlucky/repeatedly unfortunate/ill-starred" But perhaps rather it should read : 'waphipi shni', with that '-pi' being used, as frequently, to form abstract idea : 'misfortune/ill luck'. On balance, prob. the latter. Translated phrase 'hecheca esha' as 'even though that was so/the case'-->'nonetheless/nevertheless/notwithstanding'. Intensive suffix on 'yuha' appears to emphasize fact that trouble & bad luck was all Don Juan ever received in return for his pains.] Emil AFH text : Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin oiglushicin na heon hankeya makha woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin etkiya Christ Jesus. Wildenhues : "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme Commander, Christ Jesus." Another version : "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, (incurred disgrace/ obloquy ??), and for that reason he finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." [NOTE : 'aithanchanyan' seems to mean (city which was) 'overlord over' the others. Could we have another example here also, in that locative 'a-' prefix, of that (here, implied) comparative 'more than' idea, as mentioned in a previous post? Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. The fascinating word "wophethethu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was "isamya" [=more] "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less filthy lucre'.] (Biblical Quotation at bottom of page) : "Wathi taku he? Wakhanthanka! Matuwe he?" [1 Par.17, 16.] "What is my home? God! Who am I?" The biblical quotation from 1 Chronicles 17, 16., does not appear in my 1928 edition of Wildenhues's translation, whereas these citations from Scripture are given on each page of the 1922 German original. (Incidentally, 'Par.' is an abbreviation of 'Paraleipomenon', first word of the Greek title of 'Chronicles', in the Septuagint.) As I see it, given the fact that Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK was doing something quite bold & unprecedented here : In translating a text of such a quintessentialy European provenance into Lakota, he has performed his task with marvellous talent & brilliant originality. I believe also that the exercise of a little imagination allows one easily to see the attraction which the turbulent history of such "Warrior-Saints" as those militant Basque firebrands, St.Francis Xavier, and St. Ignatius Loyola, might have exercised for a Lakota! Both men of action, both scions of long line of proud, rebellious fighting-men of legendary courage! What better subject for a Lakota author? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. Having stated my (or, more importantly, Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK'S) case in the halls of learning, a thing I had long resolved to do, I will henceforth call a halt to my 'campaign', in this place, on behalf of the distinguished Lakhota author Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 14 01:38:32 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:38:32 +1100 Subject: A little new light on a familiar word ?? ["WT" (p.7)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13/01/2008, at 2:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > Emil AFH Text : > > Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita > sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Doña Maria de > Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el > miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. > > Wildenhues : > > "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was > born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Doña > Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his > baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." > > A literal version : > > "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to > prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This > (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and > Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, > was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ > Francis." (lit. "Francis saying > they-named-him." > > [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] I take this back! Now, as we all know, the word akhe' means "again; a second time" [B-Md., s.v.] "again; repeated; a second time" [Riggs, DakEngD, s.v.]. In any case, one might perhaps have expected akhe'shnashna (or s'a maybe) to correspond my translation "again & again" there. Clearly, in this context, Xavier has only just entered this Vale of Tears, so how COULD akhe' there mean "again/a second time"? Doesn't akhe' (especially followed immediately by thoka'ta, & in a prospective KTA clause) mean there, something more like : "in time yet to come/in subsequent years"? Accordingly, I would retranslate thus : "Into this family, on Apr.7, 1506, was born one who was destined/ bound to become, in time/years to come, to be a mighty soldier." Correct? Further, one also notes with interest that perhaps more than a hint of this sense appears to occur in another familiar adverb/Stative Verb "eha'ke" (which, as we know, normally means "last" [B&D,p.139]; also "be last" [Buech.LakotaT&T., 215]), when used with hunh /huNh^/ 'some' in such sentences as Buech. Gr.'s examples on Page 338, #198, 3) : Ma'zaska eha'ke hunh^ wachi'n. [='I want a little more money."] Wicha'sha eha'ke hunh^ wanji'la chin. [="He wants one man more."] Q.1 : IF eha'ke adds the nuance : 'more, but for the last time, no more!' (which akhe' may not have), wouldn't Fr. B. have translated (or annotated) accordingly, or just used akhe'? Q.2 : Would substitution of akhe' (for eha'ke) in either sentence substantially alter the translation, or not? Is this an example of Fr. B.'s bad Lakhota idiom? Q.3 : Does the loss of aspiration there in "eha'Ke" conclusively rule out any possible cognate status with "akhe"? Or is this just a false trail? Finally, I note that, interestingly enough, S.R. Riggs has two separate entries for eha'ke in his Dakota Dict. (Buechel does supply both meanings, but collapses them into one entry). B&D (p. 139) have "last". : 1) EHA'KE : (advb.) "Yet, yet to come." Example : eha'ke wanji'dan : "one yet" 2) EHA'KE : (n.) "the last one". There are also the fascinating words : EHA'KEDAN/EHA'KEDANKASE/EHA'KEDANKECHINHAN : (advb.) "yet a little while". > > > > > Emil AFH Text : > > Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi > kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon > Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca > wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya > hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. > > Wildenhues : > > "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured > knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, > and was faithful to the last, though > trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for > his loyalty." > > A literal version : > > "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') > who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort > of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been > warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was > that he had incurred the estimation (with/in the eyes of) King John > of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one > whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting'/ > honour, and so he actually stood by him till the (bitter/very) end > ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even > though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in > recompense." OR, perhaps : "(D.J., in the event, stood by King Juan)...even though that was the case (he'checa esha'), all the reward (wishi'...k'eyash) he ever reaped from that , was ill-luck and trouble." > > [NOTES : Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of > the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". > [Perhaps : "He [D.J.] passionately believed in (his own) honour." > The sentence's SUBJECT seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are > told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [with/in the eyes of] > the King called John of Navarre (DIRECT OBJECT?)], of being one > who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty. I WAS > ALSO EXERCISED BY the precise subordinating construction governed > by that Causative : "khiye". Apologies for the garbling there. > > > > Emil AFH text : > > Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, > yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius > eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin OIGLUSHICIN na heon hankeya makha > woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi > wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin > etkiya Christ Jesus. > > Wildenhues : > > "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of > which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that > injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to > seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme > Commander, Christ Jesus." > > Another version : > > "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during > its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, GOT HIMSELF INTO A > TERRIBLE PLIGHT, and for that reason he > finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land > (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary > occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." > > [NOTES : Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains > unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. > Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), > was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg > shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. > Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own > reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify > not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. > > To support this interpretation, Buech.-Md. also has : iglu'shicA : > "to make oneself bad/get ones's self into difficulty". > I'm really not sure exactly what that locative o- prefix adds > there! Could it be just emphasize that the disastrous incident > happened to I. L. 'IN that place/city' ? > The fascinating word "wophethETHu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. > based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as > a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" (or adverb.) > referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : > "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was > "isamya" [=more] > "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less > filthy lucre'.] Seems an unusual reduplication? Checked the spelling. Would't one have expected : wophethunTHUNshni? Misprint/typo? > > Regards, > > Clive Bloomfield. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 14 02:25:53 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:25:53 +1100 Subject: A little new light on a familiar word ?? Maybe not. In-Reply-To: <91FDA93E-2128-404B-B69D-8BA9EFAF1DE5@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 14/01/2008, at 12:38 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > On 13/01/2008, at 2:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> >> Emil AFH Text : >> >> Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita >> sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Doña Maria de >> Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el >> miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. >> >> Wildenhues : >> >> "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was >> born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and >> Doña Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his >> baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." >> >> A literal version : >> >> "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to >> prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This >> (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and >> Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, >> was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ >> Francis." (lit. "Francis saying >> they-named-him." >> >> [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] > > I take this back! Now, as we all know, the word akhe' means "again; > a second time" [B-Md., s.v.] "again; repeated; a second > time" [Riggs, DakEngD, s.v.]. > In any case, one might perhaps have expected akhe'shnashna (or s'a > maybe) to correspond my translation "again & again" there. > Clearly, in this context, Xavier has only just entered this Vale of > Tears, so how COULD akhe' there mean "again/a second time"? > Doesn't akhe' (especially followed immediately by thoka'ta, & in a > prospective KTA clause) mean there, something more like : "in time > yet to come/in subsequent years"? > > Accordingly, I would retranslate thus : > > "Into this family, on Apr.7, 1506, was born one who was destined/ > bound to become, in time/years to come, to be a mighty soldier." > > Correct? > > > The penny has just dropped! akhe' there goes with waN 'one' - the > point being that this babe was the latest 'edition' in a long line > of martial heroes (but with a certain difference, as we find out > later.) The words proximity to thoka'ta & the 'yet to be/come' sense of eha'ke' put me off the scent, I guess. Now, I translate : "Into this family....was born YET ANOTHER who was destined to become, in future time, a mighty soldier ('captain' sounds nice)" Regards, Clive Bloomfield > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Jan 16 00:13:30 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:13:30 +1100 Subject: Some Vocab : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07/01/2008, at 4:55 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > Waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na thate thanka, nainsh oyate > thawicoh^'anpi kin , hena ecela un hecheca shni. Tkha taku oyas'in > un hecheca. > > Mniwanca khowakatan okichize thanka k'un hehan lila wichoshkinciye, > pte waniyanpi wichayuhapi kin thalo yutapi kta cha un > wiyophewicakiya iyowinwichakhiyapi na iyowichapashtakapi. > > Tanyan mazaska iyuwinpi, tkha mazaska kin wiyopheya glusotapi na > ptegleshka optaye thanka ota k'un conala oglaptapi. > > > [=It had not been only the blizzard, the tornadoes, the customs of > the people. It had been everything. > > In the boom days during the world war they had been encouraged to > sell their cattle for beef. > > It had brought in money, but the money had been spent and the herds > depleted.] > > > > > > Ho he iyohakap taku oyas'in khul iyaye k'un he e, na omakha puze > k'un he e, na thate s'a k'un hena hiyawichagle kin hechun. > > Ptegleshka optaye tonakel owichaglaptapi k'un hena hehanl t'api. > > Wana lila waniyetu ota thate s'a kin he oblaye makhoche thowashte > tka k'un ohiniyan thate, chankhe makhoche kin akanl ooshkinciye > washte tkha k'un he ataya thate kin ikaphan ih^peye. > > [=Then had come the Depression and the drought and the winds. > > What had remained of the herds had died. > > For years now the winds had blown over the plains, beating to dust > the life of the plains.] Both above quotations from Lakhota tr. by Emil AFRAID-OF -HAWK of "Brave Against the Enemy", Ann NOLAN CLARK (Haskell Institute Printing Dept., Lawrence, Kansas, Jan 1944) - Page 21. > > More than a couple of handy 'new' (well, new-ish, given it was > 1944) vocabulary items there, wouldn't you say folks? 1) : Mniwa'nca khoa'kataN Oki'chize Tha'Nka K'uN =The Great War/The World War (lit. 'the great war across/beyond the ocean"). 2) : Ta'ku oya's'iN Khul Iya'ye K'uN = The Great Depression/the Slump/World Recession (lit. "the (time in the past when/the fact that) everything went down/took a nose-dive"). 3) : li'la wicho'shkinciye = the boom days (in this case, of course, the Lakhota cattle boom during WWI, and during the early 20s.) 4) : obla'ye makho'che tho'washte tkha k'uN (here, perhaps)= the former/erstwhile bountifulness (lit. 'its goodness') of the plains country/prairies. 5) : makho'che kin aka'Nl oo'shkinciye washte' tkha k'uN (perhaps, in context) = the former days of the 'goodlife'/prosperity on the land/the man on the land's salad days, his heyday. Fascinatingly, E AOH uses "wichasha ikceka" (p.51) for "Frenchman" (France or Canada), and "UNciyapi Thamakhoche ekta washicu ikceka" (p.49) for "French-Canadian". Could this be another clue that he really did belong to a much earlier generation, even in the 40s? Regards, Clive. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Jan 16 00:51:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:51:04 +1100 Subject: Some Vocab : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: <0FE6EADD-0875-41AC-B349-767CACF36418@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 16/01/2008, at 11:13 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > > 5) : makho'che kin aka'Nl oo'shkinciye washte' tkha k'uN (perhaps, > in context) = the former days of the 'goodlife'/prosperity on the > land/the man on the land's salad days, his heyday. oo'shkiNciye washte' there looks like it belongs to the familiar syntactical pattern of such familiar expressions as : oo'yakshica = it is hard to tell; oa'ye washte' =it is easy to take there; (B&D, pp. 44, 45, respectively) [See also B&D, p.41, #41, 3.; Buech. Gr. p.299, #184. 3) a)- last 3 exx.] Hence, (in conjunction with that nominalizing Past/Already-mentioned- Topic Marker k'uN, and the irrealis particle tkha denoting 'used to be so, not any more' (B&D, p.113), I figure the expression must have meant something like : "those former days when the 'doing/living was easy'-->'the good life'; the good old days when prosperity came easy. Toksha akhe, mitakuyepi, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Jan 16 21:41:55 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:41:55 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting Message-ID: Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Jan 17 00:16:50 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:16:50 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer Siouan Language Conference In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: The dates in May are best for me. June is always filled with scheduled activities, which compete when determining to come to the conference. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 17 03:13:32 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:13:32 -0800 Subject: Dates for summer meeting In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: I could not attend the May dates, since daughter is having a baby then. June would be ok. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jill Greer Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM From kdshea at aol.com Thu Jan 17 16:11:18 2008 From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:11:18 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting Message-ID: My niece is getting married in Wyoming May 31, but I think I could attend the meeting if it were on May 26-27. The other dates are probably better for me. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jan 17 17:07:03 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:07:03 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Aloha All, I will be teaching a summer course through early June, so the late June dates are open for me. Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 20 14:06:33 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:06:33 +0000 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Clive, I'm glad that you have found the original (if it can be so called) of this. I bought a copy of the Wthakpeya Thanka a long time ago and read it with enthusiasm, but found some passagess very difficult to work out, particularly the early bits about his early life in the mountains. I must read through it again with your notes to hand. Yours Bruce Clive Bloomfield wrote: Here is that Lakhotaiyapi description of the mediaeval Spanish castle, and the rest of the brief (one-page) first chapter of the above well-known translation by Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK in 1925, together with the English original text (upon which it is obviously based) by Fr. Bernard H. WILDENHUES, S.J., [American Press, NY, 1925], together an attempt at a more literal version, accompanied by a few philological notes. What was I expecting? Nothing. What am I hoping for? Perhaps for some enterprising postgrad., or post-doc to be inspired/urged to do a research paper, or even maybe a thesis-length study of this unique writer's language, life & times. What do I want? : I just wish to share these wonderful texts with the people equipped to appreciate them, both as Lakhota language, and (as I would argue), as genuine indigenous literature, (if in a pioneering Lakhota genre). After all, there are English translations/versions such as the Elizabethan George Chapman's Iliad, or Sir Thomas North's famous version of Plutarch's Lives, or Alexander Pope's Homer, or John Dryden's Aeneid which are judged as worthy compositions & works of English literature in their own right, rather than as being merely translations. Including North's (which in any case was based on Amyot's French translation, not on the original Greek -but they were good enough to captivate Shakespeare's imagination!), these are all frequently grossly inaccurate, but they "work" marvellously as English. Nobody seems to care much about their pedantic accuracy. Even so, I humbly submit that Emil AFH's Lakhota versions also have an intrinsic value, which transcends the mere ancillary or derivative category of 'translations'! I would also suggest that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever written such Lakhota, either before or since. It is almost like having Dumas (père) in Lakhota! Chapter Heading : "XAVIER THIWAHE KIN" (On facing [Page 6] : illustration of a large castle) Emil AFH text (Published in trad. orthography, - in interest of clarity, I will endeavour to insert all aspirates, but am sure to miss some. Apologies in advance!) : Miniwanca khoakatan Spayola makhoche el wihinaphe kin iwaziyata Navarra makhowashpe el akichita oti wan woimnayan he. Xavier thiwahe kin he woitanyankel thawapi oonakijin na owanyeye ko thankthanka ehash 'nahasekse' wohinyansya thaninyan akanlkanl hiyeye. Wildenhues : "In the province of Navarre, in north-eastern Spain, stood a mighty fortress, proud possession of the house of Xavier, fairly bristling with lofty parapets and frowning turrets." Another version with some observations : "Away beyond the Ocean, in the north-eastern region of Navarre, in the land of Spain, stands an imposing fortress (lit. "stands famously/powerfully-->imposingly"). This is the fastness, their proud possession, of the Xavier clan, and its great battlements also stand out here & there upon (its summits), as it were, brutally conspicuous & stern." [NOTES : Thought "oonakijin" was probably a noun (with doubled locative intial o- prefix) meaning "place of refuge, defensive vantage point/shelter", hence-->"stronghold/fastness/retreat (n.)". The precise syntactical structure of the second sentence, in particular the word order of the pronominal possessive 'thawapi' seems most interesting. That word appears to be part of a predicate after 'thiwahe kin', and to be (nominally) qualifying 'oonakijin'. The noun 'owanyeye' (B-Md. : 'porthole/loophole', would appear to correspond to the ramparts on the battlements, from behind which, defenders might discharge missiles. Might it also, conceivably, refer to the loopholes for arrow-shooting, in the catle-walls? Reduplication of Postposition 'akanl', as also use of verb 'hiyeyA', seems to imply the plurality of these ramparts/loopholes/arrow-slits. That intriguing phrase "ehas nahasekse" (as if excessively bristling) : probably /ehash nah^a sekse/ based on Stative verb root "nah^a" 'be rough-->'bristle/be bristly/stick out', seems to allude to the brutal & menacing aspect of the ramparts/battlements.] Emil AFH text : Anpetu lehantukesha hanke aphiyapi yunkhan ehank'ehan akichita k'eya mazaogle kithontonpi ca wiphe iyayuzapi na inyan oomani kin ogna iyowasyela shna s'e ounyanpi k'un hehan s'elecheca. Pyrenees h^e kin ikhinyela wachoka wan Roncevalles eya chajeyatapi ca hetan kaiyuzeya akhanlya wan el othan'inyan he, hetu cha Roland ohitika Charlemagne awanyanka wah^tekeshni un na echel Moors oyate kin kitanh^ci owe ktepi. Wildenhues : "Even today in its state of partial reconstruction it calls up pictures of those glorious days of old, when men in armoured mail made its arches ring with the clash of steel on the cobbled pavement. It stands on an eminence not far from the Pyrenees Mountains and the valley of Roncevalles, where Roland, undaunted paladin of the mighty Charlemagne, was slain by the Moors." A literal version : "Although nowadays (the castle) is in a state of semi-repair (lit. "part/half they-repair- it"), it (still) has the aspect it had back then, when old-time warriors wearing suits of armour (iron breastplates?), brandished their weapons, and, raised the echoes, so to speak, as they infested (lit. 'inhabited') its stone walkways. It was in a (mountain) valley, in the vicinity of the Pyreneees, easily visible from a vantage-point not far distant, that Roland, (the Emperor) Charlemagne's valiant & resourceful paladin stood sentinel (lit. "was capably watching"), and accordingly was, in the end, massacred by the Moors (in 778 AD)." (lit. "they bloodily killed him") [NOTES : Could reduplicated verb there : "kithonthon", be a collateral/dialect form of "kic'un" 'wear', or just of the general verb-formant : '-kiton/kitun' /kithoN.kithuN/? Here, the word would seem to have the sense of 'to put on; don'. Perhaps E. AFH has coined a new verb "mazaoglekithun" 'to don/wear a suit of armour, or cuirasse', for the occasion? Suspect the "inyan oomani" are the "stone walkways/gangways" (on/along the battlements/castle walls), rather than just any "stone pathways". That adverb "iyowasyela" does not appear in Buech-Manh., but would appear to have a sense something like 'clanging/resounding/echoing'. The root seems to be the same as in the word 'yaiyowaza' 'echo' . Translated adverb 'kitanh^ci' (pace B.-Md.) as : 'at last/'in the end'(after an arduous struggle), rather than ''with difficulty/hardly', in the context. But perhaps both layers of meaning are present. The senses are obviously akin.] Emil AFH Text : Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Doña Maria de Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. Wildenhues : "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Doña Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." A literal version : "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/Francis." (lit. "Francis saying they-named-him." [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] Emil AFH Text : Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. Wildenhues : "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, and was faithful to the last, though trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for his loyalty." A literal version : "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was that he had incurred the estimation in (the eyes of) King John of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting', so that he stood by him till the (bitter) end ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in recompense." [NOTES : A most difficult paragraph, (apart from first) imho. Took 'ohutkanke' as prob. a collateral form based on a common etymon shared by : 'huta/ohute/hutkan/ohutkan' 'root'-->'scion'. Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". The sentence's Subject seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [in the eyes of] King John (dir,obj.?), of being one who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty and the precise subordinating construction governed by that Causative : "kiye". Would argue that 'bitter' (end) is implied by context. Also wondered whether the reduplication (if that is what it is) in "waphiphisni" was intensive : "(He) was extremely unlucky/repeatedly unfortunate/ill-starred" But perhaps rather it should read : 'waphipi shni', with that '-pi' being used, as frequently, to form abstract idea : 'misfortune/ill luck'. On balance, prob. the latter. Translated phrase 'hecheca esha' as 'even though that was so/the case'-->'nonetheless/nevertheless/notwithstanding'. Intensive suffix on 'yuha' appears to emphasize fact that trouble & bad luck was all Don Juan ever received in return for his pains.] Emil AFH text : Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin oiglushicin na heon hankeya makha woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin etkiya Christ Jesus. Wildenhues : "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme Commander, Christ Jesus." Another version : "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, (incurred disgrace/obloquy ??), and for that reason he finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." [NOTE : 'aithanchanyan' seems to mean (city which was) 'overlord over' the others. Could we have another example here also, in that locative 'a-' prefix, of that (here, implied) comparative 'more than' idea, as mentioned in a previous post? Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. The fascinating word "wophethethu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was "isamya" [=more] "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less filthy lucre'.] (Biblical Quotation at bottom of page) : "Wathi taku he? Wakhanthanka! Matuwe he?" [1 Par.17, 16.] "What is my home? God! Who am I?" The biblical quotation from 1 Chronicles 17, 16., does not appear in my 1928 edition of Wildenhues's translation, whereas these citations from Scripture are given on each page of the 1922 German original. (Incidentally, 'Par.' is an abbreviation of 'Paraleipomenon', first word of the Greek title of 'Chronicles', in the Septuagint.) As I see it, given the fact that Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK was doing something quite bold & unprecedented here : In translating a text of such a quintessentialy European provenance into Lakota, he has performed his task with marvellous talent & brilliant originality. I believe also that the exercise of a little imagination allows one easily to see the attraction which the turbulent history of such "Warrior-Saints" as those militant Basque firebrands, St.Francis Xavier, and St. Ignatius Loyola, might have exercised for a Lakota! Both men of action, both scions of long line of proud, rebellious fighting-men of legendary courage! What better subject for a Lakota author? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. Having stated my (or, more importantly, Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK'S) case in the halls of learning, a thing I had long resolved to do, I will henceforth call a halt to my 'campaign', in this place, on behalf of the distinguished Lakhota author Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK! --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Sun Jan 20 20:24:55 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what you think. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 20 21:14:40 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:14:40 -0600 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: I think they did a nice, sensitive job with the story. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Sun 1/20/2008 2:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what you think. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From kdshea at aol.com Sun Jan 20 21:59:53 2008 From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:59:53 -0600 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: It is beautifully done, David, and very informative. I enjoyed all the links to the video segments, songs, and language lesson. Thanks for sending this. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and > especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what > you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 20 21:59:27 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:59:27 +1100 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you David. Wonderful presentation, but unutterably melancholy tidings. Yet it is also good to remember that, due to the sterling efforts of your good self & of those you have mentored, the Wichita language of Doris Lamar & her ancestors will never be wholly extinct. Clive. On 21/01/2008, at 7:24 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita > and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me > know what you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 20 22:27:07 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:27:07 +1100 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) In-Reply-To: <617422.71111.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, To have drawn a response from a scholar of your stature, I regard as a signal honour. Thank you so much for this, and for all you have done for the furtherance of Lakotanist knowledge. I simply could not do without your contributions, and am especially grateful for your English-Lakota dictionary. Lila chiyuonihaN, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. The illustrated 1922 German-language 55-page abridgement of the multivolume Schurhammer biography, of which Wildenhues apparently produced an English version, was entitled : "Franziskus Xavierus : Ein Leben in Bildern" von G. Schurhammer S.J. und Historienmaler R.E.Kepler. Kunstausgabe mit Kommentar. Xavierus=Verlag/Aachen, und Verlag des Missionhauses Immensee (Schweiz). The 1925 Afraid-Of-Hawk Lakota tr. of Wildenhues, containing abt. 60 pages, used Kepler's illustrations. On 21/01/2008, at 1:06 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Dear Clive, > I'm glad that you have found the original (if it can be so called) > of this. I bought a copy of the Wthakpeya Thanka a long time ago > and read it with enthusiasm, but found some passagess very > difficult to work out, particularly the early bits about his early > life in the mountains. I must read through it again with your > notes to hand. > Yours > Bruce > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Jan 20 23:29:23 2008 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:29:23 -0800 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David: They did a beautiful job with that article. And it's very poignant. So what *is* the difference between /wiyasaks/ and /wi:ks/? :-) Is the latter a fast speech variant of the former? Dave Costa > From: ROOD DAVID S > Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 (MST) > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita > > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and > especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what > you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Jan 21 01:03:38 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave. I always hold my breath when dealing with journalists, but this one was great. I don't know what the difference between those words is; even in the 60s, no one seemed to think there was one. I think they both contain a root something like wi:r for 'male' (borrowed by Latin, of course ;-)), e.g. 'man' is wi:c, from wi:r-s, but that's as far as I can get. I often tried to make wi:ks a fast speech variant of wiyasaks, but the medial "s" shouldn't disappear in such a form. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, David Costa wrote: > David: > > They did a beautiful job with that article. And it's very poignant. > > So what *is* the difference between /wiyasaks/ and /wi:ks/? :-) Is the > latter a fast speech variant of the former? > > Dave Costa > > > >> From: ROOD DAVID S >> Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 (MST) >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita >> >> >> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ >> >> The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and >> especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what >> you think. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 21 23:26:21 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:26:21 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) Message-ID: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-- >'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/ syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/ take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "okíchu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phutéokichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Jan 22 02:17:47 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:17:47 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: <9BACA8B9-57D6-4801-BE9C-0E7B14AE6800@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: We'll need to ask a couple of native speakers about the mysterious okicu part. It is much more likely that the meaning intended is something like "picks up with the upper lip" (of the end of the trunk). That is by far the most striking thing with an elephant. In Apache, elephant is "the one that ropes with his nose". It's nice to keep the Buechel-Manhart (1970) edition around... The diacritics are clearer there. > Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Permettez-moi de corriger ceci. "Il ne s'agit que d'un crime passionnel..." Willem (a compatriot of Georges Simenon and of Hercule Poirot) From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Jan 22 05:14:24 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:14:24 +1100 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: <20080121201747.esqtllc3saecsock@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Willem. Must get that 1970 edition. Those dots & commas are driving me spare! Mais bien sûr, mon cher Willem, c'est bien exact ça! Je vous en remercie infiniment, de cette correction : c'était bien une erreur grossière. Ça m'apprendra à me mêler de la belle langue belge (et française), d'une manière tellement cavalière, une langue si pleine d'esprit et de précision, celle de Maeterlinck et Verhaeren, n'est- ce pas! ;) Enfin, je ne peux pas m'en empêcher, à ce qu'il paraît. Mais après tout, c'est comme ça, qu'on apprend à les parler mieux, les langues - c'est à dire : en perpétrant, de temps en temps, des "massacres" grammaticales, non? :-) En fait, je me sers de 'La Méthode Bloomfield' pour l'Apprentisage des Langues, à savoir : "Le Chemin du Soloecisme Fréquente". Et voilà! Ha ha. Thanks too for the fascinating snippet of Apache there. I guess the Navajo item : bíchįįh yee 'adilohii (Y&M, 1987, p.876) would convey something similar, eh? (My computer can't handle the nazalized i- acute, I fear) Not that I'm any expert on Diné Bizaad, of course - I've been trying, with meagre success, to learn to read it for about 20 years! Those verb-complexes seem fiendish - all that information packed into a verb-form, and all those seeming irregularities! But totally enchanting, of course! No doubt structures of Western Apache would be comparable, eh? By comparison, the vagaries of the various Lakhota 'ki-/kici/kichi-/ khi-/k- forms seem much easier to cope with. BTW, I dare say you're quite correct about that greater likelihood, particularly in view of the info. from other Amerind languages. I actually wanted the etymology to involve that meaning you mention below, but was lured into a sort of 'to-aspirate-or-not-to-aspirate idée fixe', for a moment there! best regards, Amitiés, Clive. P.S. "Mais enfin, c'était vraiement élémentaire, M. Poirot, n'est- ce pas!" On 22/01/2008, at 1:17 PM, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > We'll need to ask a couple of native speakers about the mysterious > okicu part. It is much more likely that the meaning intended is > something like "picks up with the upper lip" (of the end of the > trunk). That is by far the most striking thing with an elephant. > In Apache, elephant is "the one that ropes with his nose". It's > nice to keep the Buechel-Manhart (1970) edition around... The > diacritics are clearer there. > >> Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) > > Permettez-moi de corriger ceci. "Il ne s'agit que d'un crime > passionnel..." > > Willem (a compatriot of Georges Simenon and of Hercule Poirot) > > From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 10:51:17 2008 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:51:17 -0800 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <9BACA8B9-57D6-4801-BE9C-0E7B14AE6800@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not even trying to present you with a clear picture of the morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? Examples for kicu: ogle ki kicu shirt DEF give back 'he returned the shirt to her' he kicu we! that give back imperative 'give it back to him!' In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. The expected form ikicu does not exist. Regina Clive Bloomfield wrote: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-->'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "okíchu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phutéokichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 22 11:25:35 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:25:35 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This verb is an unusual one. I believe that Boas and Deloria have it as kichu 'give back' and I have heard it as such on tapes. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not even trying to present you with a clear picture of the morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? Examples for kicu: ogle ki kicu shirt DEF give back 'he returned the shirt to her' he kicu we! that give back imperative 'give it back to him!' In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. The expected form ikicu does not exist. Regina Clive Bloomfield wrote: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-->'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "okíchu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phutéokichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Jan 22 11:50:22 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:50:22 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Jan 22 15:38:08 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:38:08 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Clive Bloomfield : (...) Mais bien sûr, mon cher Willem, c'est bien exact ça! Je vous en > remercie infiniment, de cette correction : c'était bien une erreur > grossière. Ça m'apprendra à me mêler de la belle langue belge (et > française), d'une manière tellement cavalière, une langue si pleine > d'esprit et de précision, celle de Maeterlinck et Verhaeren, n'est- > ce pas! ;) Enfin, je ne peux pas m'en empêcher, à ce qu'il paraît. > Mais après tout, c'est comme ça qu'on apprend à les parler mieux, > les langues - c'est à dire : en perpétrant, de temps en temps, des > "massacres" grammaticaux, non? :-) En fait, je me sers de 'La > Méthode Bloomfield' pour l'Apprentissage des Langues, à savoir : "Le > Chemin du Soloecisme Fréquent". Et voilà! Ha ha. (..) Hi Clive: Thanks for getting all of us Siouanists to practice our French a bit! To reconnect this a little bit to small languages, which we are all dealing with. You mention the Flemish authors Maeterlinck and Verhaeren. This is great literature, widely read in the French-speaking world. People do not know that there is a Dutch (or Flemish) literature in Belgium, quite as good as the French authors. The eternal probelem with samll languages, few read the lkietarure! But we digress. On to Lakota kicu, kichu etc... From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 17:39:49 2008 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:39:49 -0800 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <001801c85cec$f884f740$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: OK Bruce, OK Jan, I consider myself outvoted on the aspiration of kic(h)u. Fact is, with c, I tend to have trouble hearing the difference between aspiration and lack of it. With p/t/k this is a lot easier. I'm sure there is a phonological explanation for this -- maybe the alveolar fricative that technically precedes the aspiration in the affricate c has something to do with it. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 22 18:16:32 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:16:32 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <663953.30906.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're not alone Regina. I have actually been told by a Lakota speaker of possibly a bit older than my generation that she could not tell the difference. I think the point is that both are affricates and are similar. However when I asked her to say icu 'take' and echun 'do', they were clearly different to me. It isn't exactly the same, but I remember that when I taught articulatory phonetics I used to ask my students to write down in phonetic script what I would say. Then I would pronounce /tliin tlodhs/ and they would all transcribe it as 'clean clothes', the point being that they wrote down what they thought I meant, tl- being an unrecognised sequence in English. In fact I think you could pronounce all your cl- s as tl-s and no one would bat an eye-lid. It isn't quite the same thing, but it illustrates that speakers impressions of what goes on in their own language are not always accurate. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: OK Bruce, OK Jan, I consider myself outvoted on the aspiration of kic(h)u. Fact is, with c, I tend to have trouble hearing the difference between aspiration and lack of it. With p/t/k this is a lot easier. I'm sure there is a phonological explanation for this -- maybe the alveolar fricative that technically precedes the aspiration in the affricate c has something to do with it. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Jan 22 20:24:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:24:04 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Regina, Many thanks for this response. My apologies for perhaps "muddying up" the issue somewhat! Obviously my post was no model of clarity : My intention was to make it clear that Buechel-Manhart (2002, p.175) , echoing Riggs (1890, p. 285), actually HAD asserted pretty authoritatively, that Consonant 2 in kic(h)u was NOT ejectivized, despite (what both lexicographers register as) the verb's derivation from k'u. In my edition, B-M says : "kic(h)u : [fr. k'u to give to] ....Note : by analogy the word should be kic'u, but it is not." Also, your suggested etymology of phute'okicu from kic(h)u makes sense to me : elephants do do just that with their food & other stuff, seeming indeed to be feeding themselves, I have noticed (or used to, in the distant era when itinerant circusses in rural Australia actually had elephants. As a small boy, I used to watch them feed in a paddock, not far from our house.) Might it in fact be then that, just as B-M. say [p.278], the verbal part of the compound DOES derive from wokicu, perhaps a Possessive- Dative form of wok'u 'to give food to', meaning in this instance 'give (one's own) food to' -- which may have lost its ejective c' for the same 'reason' as kic(h)u? Trouble is, B-M. fails to list such a form : a fact which, one supposes, may not be totally conclusive? Nevertheless, wokicu IS mentioned in the entry for phuthokic(h)u. And yet, I have an idea that I have come across other such derived forms in the course of reading texts (in BH [1924], I think, but may be mistaken), which (unlike ikicu) do/did evidently exist, but were omitted from the dictionary. My understanding of B-M.'s term "gutteralization" was that it referred to the fricative articulation, or velar release, of the Lakhota aspirated stops kh-, ph-, & th- preceding the vowels a, aN, uN, o, (& sometimes e), as indicated in the Txakini, & Ullrich orthographies. Not correct? My exasperation with B-M. was at their very confusing annotation of BOTH the unaspirated stops AND these aspirated 'gutteralized' ones with a (to my eyes) identical superscript dot (See : B-M Dict. "Guide to Pronunciation", p. xiv.) But perhaps I've misunderstood something? Kind regards, Clive. P.S. May I thank you also for your seminal contributions to Lakhota studies. I find your papers on the Lakhota Article, on Split Intransitivity in Lakhota & Osage; on 'etaN' & 'etaNhaN'; on the Postpositions; on 'el' VS 'ekta'; as well as on the Coding of (Siouan) oblique case relations most illuminating. I am so looking forward to the publication of your Reference Grammar! On 22/01/2008, at 9:51 PM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' > because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota > benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not > even trying to present you with a clear picture of the > morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: > phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give > back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper > lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in > their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. > So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their > mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to > give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things > back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? > Examples for kicu: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > > In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u > because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to > figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological > connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between > kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- > should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have > transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. > Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and > confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't > there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, > aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which > represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never > been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's > definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact > phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. > icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. > The expected form ikicu does not exist. > > Regina > > > Clive Bloomfield wrote: > I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology > supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : > (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one > RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? > Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : > i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said > form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. > > If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of > tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for > annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective > consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological > transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this > word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from > kichu 'restore/give back' > (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! > In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. > to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. > 'chair' : aspirated, no?). > > B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. > > On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B- > Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying > that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, > obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, > and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? > > Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due > to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of > this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the > verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive > form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' > 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip > (trunk)'-->'elephant'. > But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/ > syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/ > take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form > 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no > 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological > speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? > > Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's > another speculative idea to account for the etymology of > 'phute'okichu' : > > There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of > water inside". > The Dative/Possessive form might be "okíchu" : "it has [drops of] > water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". > > Could the etymology of phutéokichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) > has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", > possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus > elephant giving itself a "shower"? > > I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William > of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those > infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! > Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) > > Kind regards, > > Clive. > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 23 04:37:42 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:37:42 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! Message-ID: > On to Lakota kicu, kichu etc... Gesundheit! Bob From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Jan 23 21:13:27 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:13:27 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <291055.3336.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and materials. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 23 21:48:19 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:48:19 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) Message-ID: That makes much better sense, as it clearly relates the verb to k?u 'give'. Kaw uses wajutta ppa sceje 'long-nosed (4 legged) animal'. But I liked their secondary terms better: wakkaNda ttaNga ppa sceje 'great long-nosed god' and wakkaNda xoje ttaNga 'great gray god'. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Wed 1/23/2008 3:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Re : "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and materials. Jan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 23 23:57:45 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:57:45 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <000701c85e04$cc6d3b90$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: The other one I like is wamnitu 'whale', which I presume is analysable as wa- something, mni- water -tu 'to be' ie 'something which is in water', though probably other Siouanists willl tell me mine is a folk etymology and it is really a borrowing from some other Siouan language. Any info? Bruce --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 24 02:38:18 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:38:18 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <568530.24554.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is fascinating to delve into these Lakota words for animals which seem somewhat exotic to the Lakhota Makhoche! One notes that, according to B-Md. [p.341] the word wamnitu, which (unless, as Bruce muses, it is a folk-etymology) seems to mean originally not much more than "thing/ creature (which lives?) in the water" [wa-mni-tu]-->"sea-monster"??, may also be applied to the HIPPOPOTAMUS, which again, to the best of my knowledge, would not be found in huge numbers on the Great Plains of North America! ;) As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. I wonder could anybody be so kind as to look up the word or expression which Riggs/Williamson/J.Renville use in the Dakota Old Testament to translate "LEVIATHAN" in that splendid & familiar old verse from book of Job, where God bullies & overawes poor suffering Job : "Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook?" [JOB; Chaper 41, 1] John Poage Williamson supplies : "hogan iyotan tanka" for 'whale' in his Engl-Dakota Dict., [Iapi Oaye Press, Yankton Agency, 1886; p.140] Dakota Genesis, which I do have, reads, at 1:21 : "Hecen Wakantanka hogan tankinyanyan oicah^ye..." : "And God created great whales,..." There are also : 1) "CHUWINUNGE" /chuwínuNg^e/ (meaning, presumably "swollen-backed" or "hunch-backed") now also meaning "CAMEL". [A Buech. BH 1924 word, I think] Interestingly, J.P.Williamson gives 'cankahu pajo' /chaNkáhu paz^ó/ for the ship of the desert. That would appear to mean something like : "(creature with) prominent back-bone" Cf. pajóla: "hillock"; pajóya : (advb) "hill-like; swelled up (as pimples get (!))" [B-Md. pp.262-263] 2) "SHUNKA WICASHA" /s^uNká wichàs^a/ [I guess, given that accentuation by B-M.(p.291) signifying "man(like)-dog"?---> "MONKEY".] Evidently monkeys must have tickled the Lakota sense of humour somewhat, because I've come across a couple of other funny & strikingly descriptive words for these humanoid little beasts : 3) "HEYOLELA" /heyólela/ [=little seeker for lice (héya) (See B&D; Sect.8; p.10]; 4) "WAUNCHALA" /waúNchala/ [=little mocker, or imitator (See B&D; Sect.55; p.54)]. J. Poage Williamson has : "waunca" for monkey [E-Ddict. p.107] Finally, there is this totally intriguing & mysterious word : 5) UNHCEGILA /uNh^cég^ila/ : Buechel-Manhart [p.318], quoting S.R. Riggs, (who glosses it with 'T' Teton), supplies : "MASTODON, perhaps, or other large animals whose petrified remains are found in the Dakota Territory" An ancient word? "Lakotafied" from another language?? Love to know the etymology of that one! Clive. On 24/01/2008, at 10:57 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > The other one I like is wamnitu 'whale', which I presume is > analysable as wa- something, mni- water -tu 'to be' ie 'something > which is in water', though probably other Siouanists willl tell me > mine is a folk etymology and it is really a borrowing from some > other Siouan language. Any info? > Bruce > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jan 24 04:50:40 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:50:40 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 09:32:16 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:32:16 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 24 10:14:42 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:14:42 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <47985B20020000A600004586@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 11:06:41 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:06:41 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <158987.9203.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've checked the Vulgate and a German (admittedly Lutheran rather than Catholic) Bibe translation and in both of them it's a 'big fish', not a whale. I assume Buechel would have translated either from the German Bible as used by Catholics of his time or from the Vulgate. The Greek NT has a big fish too. As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien to native speakers of English as they would be to Lakota speakers. Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 01/24/08 10:14 am >>> Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Jan 24 16:07:43 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:07:43 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <000701c85e04$cc6d3b90$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Quoting Jan Ullrich : > I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it > clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food > to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to > one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and > materials. > Thank you for saving the day, Jan. I annotated my Buechel dictionary accordingly. Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Jan 24 16:06:34 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:06:34 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun) לויתן Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: > Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I > think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. > I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if > this is an accident or a superior translation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > >> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN >> TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > ____________________ 狄雨亭 (奧龍) 宋詩家選集 - ❮蝶夢痕❯ www.fa-kuan.muc.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 24 16:39:45 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:39:45 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <47987141020000A600004596@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Interesting. I wonder what it is in the original Hebrew. In the Quran Yunis (Jonah) is swallowed by huut (with pharyngeal -h-). Nowadays this is the Arabic word for whale, but I doubt that the 7th century Arabs were any more familiar with whales than the Ancient Hebrews. In Moroccan Arabic huut is the normal word for fish. One wonders however, if the whale is not intended in the Old Testament, what they could have been thinking about. After all a whale is the only fish on earth, which one could imagine large enough to swallow a man whole. Could they have heard of whales from those further afield? Did it wait for the scriptures to reach Northern Europe before it could be interpreted strictly as a whale? Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: I've checked the Vulgate and a German (admittedly Lutheran rather than Catholic) Bibe translation and in both of them it's a 'big fish', not a whale. I assume Buechel would have translated either from the German Bible as used by Catholics of his time or from the Vulgate. The Greek NT has a big fish too. As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien to native speakers of English as they would be to Lakota speakers. Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 01/24/08 10:14 am >>> Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 16:23:35 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:23:35 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <29B3A2A7-0BB2-4FB0-A59F-54849FAB11CD@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred et al: I just checked. The Hebrew Bible has dag gadol - big fish. Anthony >>> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" 01/24/08 4:06 pm >>> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun) ????? Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: > Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I > think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. > I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if > this is an accident or a superior translation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > >> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN >> TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > ____________________ () - www.fa-kuan.muc.de ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jan 24 17:57:08 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:57:08 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <335127.63942.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not following why ancient Hebrews and 7th century Arabs should have been ignorant of whales. They both had coasts, or were very close to people that did, the former on the Mediterranean and the latter on the Red Sea, Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. Even if whales were never sighted at sea by sailors, they would still be known through occasional beachings. This was not the middle of a large continent, as for MVS peoples. I'm sure whales would have been well known throughout most of the Middle East since the beginning of human habitation there. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Jan 24 18:16:33 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:16:33 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol" דָּג גָּדוֹל וַיְמַן יְהוָה דָּג גָּדוֹל, לִבְלֹעַ אֶת-יוֹנָה And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. Tüting: > Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: > "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - > thet - nun) > לויתן > Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very > same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier > Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". > > I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling > of Jona in the whale/fish. > > Alfred > > > Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I >> think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. >> I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if >> this is an accident or a superior translation. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >> >> > > ____________________ > > 狄雨亭 (奧龍) > 宋詩家選集 - ❮蝶夢痕❯ > > www.fa-kuan.muc.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 18:24:22 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:24:22 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <1CAC851E-B5D0-44D7-B377-5FC5066E4085@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: yes >>> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" 01/24/08 6:16 pm >>> (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol" ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????, ???????? ???-????? And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. Tüting: > Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: > "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - > thet - nun) > ????? > Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very > same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier > Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". > > I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling > of Jona in the whale/fish. > > Alfred > > > Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I >> think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. >> I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if >> this is an accident or a superior translation. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >> >> > > ____________________ > > () > - > > www.fa-kuan.muc.de ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Jan 24 19:44:48 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:44:48 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Rory M Larson : > > I'm not following why ancient Hebrews and 7th century Arabs should have > been ignorant of whales. They both had coasts, or were very close to > people that did, the former on the Mediterranean and the latter on the Red > Sea, Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. Even if whales were never sighted at > sea by sailors, they would still be known through occasional beachings. > This was not the middle of a large continent, as for MVS peoples. I'm sure > whales would have been well known throughout most of the Middle East since > the beginning of human habitation there. > > Rory I agree. I am not sure if whales are often seen in the Red Sea and in the Mediterranean, but the Phoenicians, neighbors of the Hebrews, and who sailed way beyond these seas would certainly have known about whales. There must have been at least a Phoenician word for a whale. Willem From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 00:06:15 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:06:15 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <1CAC851E-B5D0-44D7-B377-5FC5066E4085@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: In my opinion, it would be very surprising indeed, if Fr. Eugene Buechel S.J., (b.1873) as a member of the Society of Jesus who had been trained in Germany & the Netherlands in the 1890's & early 1900's,, was NOT thoroughly versed at least in the canonical scriptural languages of Hebrew, Greek & Latin, (if not in Aramaic & Syriac also, and perhaps even some Coptic). As people here will know, the Jesuits have always been renowned for being the Catholic Church's elite scholarly order. By the same token, I reckon there is also a reasonable likelihood that Stephen Return Riggs & Thomas S. Williamson would also have acquired the standard XIXc. missionary's equipment of at least some acquaintance with those languages also, and perhaps even had scholarly in-depth knowledge of the Hebrew OT, the Greek NT, and the Latin Vulgate. At the risk of seeming to be doing a reprise of Herman Melville's learned treatise on Cetology in the wonderful "Moby Dick", perhaps it may be of relevance & interest to explore in some detail the original scriptural texts of GENESIS 1:21, which the translators of the Dakota Bible (1879) evidently based their translations on : 'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created great fishes..." Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite the Hebrew OT. Here goes : The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads : וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־הַתַּנִּינִ֖ם הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים in which the words used for the object of the verb : (ha)tanni:nim (ha)gedoli:m 'the great dragons/sea-monsters' were rendered : "And God created great whales.." (King James Version 1611), "And God created the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are : That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.) (for some reason, this didn't get through) > > Let me add this: > > this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or > "dag gadol" דָּג גָּדוֹל > > > וַיְמַן יְהוָה דָּג גָּדוֹל, > לִבְלֹעַ אֶת-יוֹנָה > And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah > > Alfred > > Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. Tüting: > >> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: >> "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - >> thet - nun) >> לויתן >> Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the >> very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by >> "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". >> >> I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story >> telling of Jona in the whale/fish. >> >> Alfred >> >> >> Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but >>> I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew >>> text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to >>> see if this is an accident or a superior translation. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >>> >>> >> >> ____________________ >> >> 狄雨亭 (奧龍) >> 宋詩家選集 - ❮蝶夢痕❯ >> >> www.fa-kuan.muc.de > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 03:01:42 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:01:42 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies to any Greek scholars here for that unaspirated masculine sing. definite article & for those other two initial vowels which ought to have been aspirated : The diacritics on my Polytonic Greek font are not only vanishingly microscopic, and thus difficult to distinguish, (even when magnified), but the Greek 'spiritus asper' ( 'he daseia prosoidia') or so called "rough breathing" appears to have been completely omitted by the makers. Nevertheless, I have indicated the aspirates in my transliterations. Just for the record. Clive. On 26/01/2008, at 11:06 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > The Hellenistic Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX), at > Genesis 1:21, reads : > > Καὶ ἐποίησεν ὀ Θεὸς τὰ κήτη τὰ > μεγάλα... > [Kai epoiesen ho Theos ta kete ta megala..."And God created the > great sea-monsters/whales..."] , > > > > Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota > translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for > comparison : > > "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin > ohna un qon he iyecen..." > > "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's > belly..." [KJV, 1611]; > > ὦσπερ γὰρ ἦν Ἰωνᾶς ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ > τοῦ κήτους τρεῖς ἠμέρας καὶ τρεῖς > νύκτας... > .[hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai > treis nyktas...[Above transliterated]; > [Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX Book of > Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ]; > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/01/2008, at 5:16 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > >> (for some reason, this didn't get through) >> >> Let me add this: >> >> this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or >> "dag gadol" דָּג גָּדוֹל >> >> >> וַיְמַן יְהוָה דָּג גָּדוֹל, >> לִבְלֹעַ אֶת-יוֹנָה >> And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah >> >> Alfred >> >> Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. Tüting: >> >>> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: >>> "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud >>> - thet - nun) >>> לויתן >>> Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the >>> very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by >>> "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". >>> >>> I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story >>> telling of Jona in the whale/fish. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >>>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, >>>> but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original >>>> Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the >>>> translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>>>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>>>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ____________________ >>> >>> 狄雨亭 (奧龍) >>> 宋詩家選集 - ❮蝶夢痕❯ >>> >>> www.fa-kuan.muc.de >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 04:58:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:58:04 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <335127.63942.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is the Hebrew for : JONAH 1:17 (KJV numbering); 2:1 (Hebrew Bible, LXX & Clem. Vulgate numbering) : וַיְמַ֤ן יְהוָה֙ דָּ֣ג גָּדֹ֔ול לִבְלֹ֖עַ אֶת־יֹונָ֑ה "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish [dag gadol] to swallow up Jonah." [KJV 1:17]; ...κήτει μεγάλῳ /kētei megalōi/ : (Dative Sg. Neut.) : "lit.(to a) great sea-monster/whale" [LXX 2:1]; "...piscem grandem" : (Accus. Sg. Masc.) [Clem. Vulgate 2:1]; 1 and : JONAH 2:1 (KJV); 2-2 (HB, LXX, ClemVulg.) : וַיִּתְפַּלֵּ֣ל יֹונָ֔ה אֶל־יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהָ֑יו מִמְּעֵ֖י הַדָּגָֽה׃ "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's [(ha) dagah] belly." [KJV 2:1]; ...ἐκ τῆς κοιλίας τοῦ κήτους /ek tēs koilias tou kētous/ : "out of the belly of the sea-monster/whale" [LXX 2:2] ; "...de ventre (utero) piscis" [ClemVulg. 2:2] Now lastly, JONAH 2-10 (KJV); 2-11 (HB, LXX, ClemVulg.) : וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה לַדָּ֑ג וַיָּקֵ֥א אֶת־יֹונָ֖ה אֶל־הַיַּבָּשָֽׁה "And the Lord spake (unto) the fish [(la)dag], and it vomited out Jonah." [KJV 2:10] LXX : τῷ κήτει /tōi kētei/ (Dat.Sg.N.) : "to the great sea- monster/whale" [LXX 2:11] "pisci" (Dat. Sg. Masc.) : simply, "to the fish" [Clem.Vulgate 2:11] BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting tongue also, ħuta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ħutiet ; (Collective) ħut] is the usual word for fish. Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. balienat, or balieniet. But doubtless that is old news to you. Anybody got the Dakota texts? Pretty please? :) Clive. P.S. Buechel's Roman Catholic German bible, (if he consulted one), would probably have been a version of the so-called (Johann) DIETENBERGER Bible of 1534, a sort of RC 'counterblast' to Luther's magnificent translation. Would that be correct Alfred? I guess S.R. Riggs & co., as Protestant clergymen, might have checked the KJV (which they probably knew by heart, in any case!). On 25/01/2008, at 3:39 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Interesting. I wonder what it is in the original Hebrew. In the > Quran Yunis (Jonah) is swallowed by huut (with pharyngeal -h-). > Nowadays this is the Arabic word for whale, but I doubt that the > 7th century Arabs were any more familiar with whales than the > Ancient Hebrews. In Moroccan Arabic huut is the normal word for > fish. One wonders however, if the whale is not intended in the Old > Testament, what they could have been thinking about. After all a > whale is the only fish on earth, which one could imagine large > enough to swallow a man whole. Could they have heard of whales > from those further afield? Did it wait for the scriptures to reach > Northern Europe before it could be interpreted strictly as a whale? > Bruce > > > > > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, > Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN > TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated > companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. > You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, > print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended > recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not > actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary > for Edge Hill University to access business communications during > staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and > any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no > responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or > damage arising in any way from its use. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > --------------------------------- > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated > companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. > You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, > print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended > recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not > actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary > for Edge Hill University to access business communications during > staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and > any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no > responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or > damage arising in any way from its use. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 26 13:38:28 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:38:28 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting about the tinniin word. Nowadays in general usage in Arabic it is used for 'dragon'. Bruce Clive Bloomfield wrote: In my opinion, it would be very surprising indeed, if Fr. Eugene Buechel S.J., (b.1873) as a member of the Society of Jesus who had been trained in Germany & the Netherlands in the 1890's & early 1900's,, was NOT thoroughly versed at least in the canonical scriptural languages of Hebrew, Greek & Latin, (if not in Aramaic & Syriac also, and perhaps even some Coptic). As people here will know, the Jesuits have always been renowned for being the Catholic Church's elite scholarly order. By the same token, I reckon there is also a reasonable likelihood that Stephen Return Riggs & Thomas S. Williamson would also have acquired the standard XIXc. missionary's equipment of at least some acquaintance with those languages also, and perhaps even had scholarly in-depth knowledge of the Hebrew OT, the Greek NT, and the Latin Vulgate. At the risk of seeming to be doing a reprise of Herman Melville's learned treatise on Cetology in the wonderful "Moby Dick", perhaps it may be of relevance & interest to explore in some detail the original scriptural texts of GENESIS 1:21, which the translators of the Dakota Bible (1879) evidently based their translations on :  'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created great fishes..." Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite the Hebrew OT. Here goes : The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads :      וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים ×Ö¶×ªÖ¾×”Ö·×ªÖ¼Ö·× Ö¼Ö´×™× Ö´Ö–× הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים in which the words used for the object of the verb : (ha)tanni:nim (ha)gedoli:m 'the great dragons/sea-monsters' were rendered :  "And God created great whales.." (King James Version 1611), "And God created the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are : That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.)>From there on, it went into Latin, (which also, incidentally, had another word balaena, from which stemmed many derivatives in mod. European languages). In the so-called Clementine Vulgate 1592 (named after Pope Clement VIII 1592-1605), the standard RC Counter-Reformation revision/rescension of St. Jerome's well-known Latin rendering, the  text of Genesis 1:21 reads : "Creavitque Deus cete grandia...", where kete [κήτη] is the Greek neuter accusative plural of ketus just adopted wholesale into Latin (spelled cetus; Pl. cete), as the neuter acc. pl. of the adjective 'grandis'  demonstrates by concord. (Latin often just adopts Greek words holus-bolus, and uses the Greek declensional case-endings on Greek words, rather than the Latin ones - most well-educated Romans had a fluent command of Hellenistic, if not Classical, Greek, having in very many cases studied philosophy/literature/natural-science (or attended 'finishing school' , as it were) in Athens, or some other Greek city, perhaps in Ionia, the stamping-ground of early western science. A cursory glance at Cicero's numerous very entertaining letters will reveal many Greek words, freq. left in the original script. A command of Greek, for cultivated Romans, was regarded much like a knowledge of French & Latin used to be considered in Europe & America, as a mark of breeding & superior education. What a falling-off there has been, eh? Just kidding, folks. ;) ) Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for comparison : "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin ohna un qon he iyecen..." "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's belly..." [KJV, 1611]; "For as Jonah was in the whale's belly three days & nights..." [Douai-Rheims, NT 1582, OT 1609]; ὦσπερ γὰρ ἦν Ἰωνᾶς ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ τοῦ ÎºÎ®Ï„Î¿Ï Ï‚ τρεῖς ἠμέρας καὶ τρεῖς νύκτας....[Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX Book of Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ];  hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai treis nyktas...[Above transliterated]; Sicut enim fuit Jonas in ventre ceti tribus diebus et tribus noctibus...[Clem. Vulgate 1592]. Here, we can see that the word of our NT Greek orig. ketos has been rendered by hogan tanka /hog^a'N tha'Nka/. It would be fascinating to know the Dakota words used for 'whale/great fish' in the following passages also, if anybody has them at their fingertips : JOB 7:12, and 41:1; EZEKIEL 32:2; JONAH 1:17; 2:10 Incidentally, the LXX original of both passages at JOB 7:12, & 40:20 (numbering of verses in LXX, & Vulgate sometimes differs from KJV) uses a different Greek word δράκων /drakon/ dragon,which KJV chose to render with whale & leviathan respectively. This is another of those words of somewhat vague & wide application, meaning in Homeric & Classical Greek : snake; serpent (Autentrieth, Op.cit, s.v.); described by Homer as being of huge size, "coiled like a snake, of blood-red or dark colour, shot with changeful hues, dwelling in mountains, feeding on poisonous herbs, with three heads" (Iliad 2.200-208; 11.40; 12.201, 208) . "It appears to have been really the python, or boa". [LSJ, s.v.].  Aristotle in HA 8.13.3 used the word to denote a large sea-fish of some description : "the great weever" [LSJ]. Kind regards, Clive.     On 25/01/2008, at 5:16 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol"  דָּג גָּדוֹל וַיְמַן יְהוָה דָּג גָּדוֹל, לִבְלֹעַ אֶת-×™×•Ö¹× Ö¸×” And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. Tüting: Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun) לויתן Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text.  I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ____________________ 狄雨亭 (奧龍) 宋詩家選集 - ❮蝶夢痕❯ www.fa-kuan.muc.de --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Jan 26 18:32:22 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:32:22 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am 26.01.2008 um 01:06 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > (...) > > 'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created > great fishes..." > > > Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst > us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite > the Hebrew OT. Here goes : > The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads : > וַיִּבְרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־ > הַתַּנִּינִ֖ם הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים Yes, my good old dictionary of Biblical Hebrew lists the word תן tha:n also (as referred to by you, below) giving it as "Wüstentier, Schakal" respectively. It is noted there that the word exists in plural form only. (BTW, it's pretty self-evident that this word designating that "monstrous" animal of the desert also is part of the compound livya-tha:n !). In modern Hebrew תנין sg. תנינם pl. is the designation for crocodile (Krokodil), but snake (Schlange) in bibl. sense. > in which the words used for the object of the verb : (ha)tanni:nim > (ha)gedoli:m 'the great dragons/sea-monsters' were rendered : > > "And God created great whales.." (King James Version 1611), > > "And God created the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. > NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are : (...) Okay, great job retrieving this, yet, back to our initial point, wasn't it just to prove that the original Biblical story of Jonah in the "whale" was translated correctly into Laḱota by using the word hoġaŋ ṫaŋka? That this term had not just been a circumscriptional stopgap (based on the translator's not knowing it better or the deficiency of the Laḱota language lacking more adequate a term for that "sea monster")? BTW, I totally do share your view on Father Eugen, in special, and the calibre of Jesuits, in general. ;-) My personal conclusion drawn out of this research is that the biblical scribes (etc.) maybe did know what a whale was, yet that they obviously (not unlike oyate - who had not even a chance to know the beast!) didn't have a word ready to name it, so they attributed the monster with the names they had for desert beasts etc.. Actually, the scribe of our Jonah story didn't use one of these handy words, conservatively speaking only of a "huge fish". IMVHO, he didn't even want to tell us that "the huge fish" actually was a whale (this constriction in the sense of specification being the work of "successors" in later times). Thanks a lot for your - as ever - most thoroughly reseached contribution, misun, he un lila ṗilamayaye. Alfred le miye lo. > That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.) (with an 'erroneous' by-form tanni:m)[cf. Modern Written Arabic > tinniyn/tinni:n; Pl. tana:ni:n; - which, as Bruce will know, > signifies : "sea monster; Draco (astron.); waterspout (meteor.) > [Arab.-Engl.Dict.. Hans Wehr, ed. J.M.Cowan, NY, 1976]; also occurs > in Syriac & Ethiopic). > This word is said by Gesenius' Hebrew-Engl. Lexicon of O.T. (ed. & > rev. by Brown, Briggs & Driver, Clarendon Pr, Oxf.,1951) to be a > loan-word from Aramaic tanniyna', and appears to have had a somewhat > indeterminate meaning > (much like that other Hebrew word leviathan/livya:tha:n, and the > Ancient Greek/Latin cetos/cetus ) : > > "serpent (venomous) [Dt 32:33]; dragon (as devourer)[Jer 51:24]; > sea- (or river-) monster [Gn 1:21]." > > At Psalms 74:13, the same word is even used, figuratively, of the > Egyptian oppressors, and is rendered in the KJV as 'dragons', while > at Isaiah 51:9, it is used of the mythological personification of > Chaos 'Rahab/Rahav', and once again translated by the King James > version as ' the dragon', > > > Another Hebrew-Engl. lexicon (Samuel Bagster & sons, 1911) glosses > the word thus : > > "1) a serpent; 2) any large marine animal; 3) a crocodile." > > (Incidentally, there was another word : tan/ta:n with whose Pl. > forms tanni:m/tanni:n our word just discussed appears to have been > sometimes conflated. Its meaning appears to have been 'howling > thing; jackal; wolf; other wild animals of the desert; "precise > meaning unknown"[Op.cit., s.v.] '.) > > [The Gesenius Hebr. Lexicon also gives a rare Arabic cognate > ti:na:n(un), (which I am unable to locate in Wehr). Perhaps it was > an ancient word?? > Gesenius glosses tan/ta:n evocatively as "jackal, howling mournfully > in waste places", (Op.Cit., s.v.)] > > > Yet another respected standard dictionary of Biblical Hebrew (Dr. > Karl Feyerabend, Langenscheidt, n.d.) supplies the following > meanings for tanni:n/tanni:m , which reveal rather succinctly the > word's wide semantic range : > > "great water-animal; whale; shark; crocodile; serpent; sea-monster" > > > > The Hellenistic Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX), at > Genesis 1:21, reads : > > Καὶ ἐποίησεν ὀ Θεός τὰ κήτη τὰ > μεγάλα... [Kai epoiesen ho Theos ta kete ta megala..."And God > created the great sea-monsters/whales..."] , > > using the accusative plural of the Ancient Greek word ketos > [κήτος] (neuter singular) : > > "any sea-monster, or huge fish" [Liddell, Scott & Jones ("LSJ"), > Greek-Engl. Lexicon, 9th Rev. Ed.]; > > "Orig. sense 'gulf' ...a sea-monster, also applied to seals" [A > Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, R.J.Cunliffe, London&Glasgow; 1924]; > > "sea-monster, e.g. sharks & seals" [A Homeric Dictionary, Georg > Autentrieth, (tr. R.P.Keep), 1876, 1901] > > According to LSJ (s.v.), the word had long been used by Homer > [Odyssey 12.97; Iliad 20.147], and also occurs in the Histories of > Herodotus [Bk IV.53]. Ketos could also, we are told by LSJ, have the > meaning of "seal; sea-calf", and was evidently used in this sense at > Odyssey 4.446 & 452. > The tragedian Euripides [fragment 121], and the comedian > Aristophanes [Nubes, 556] employed the word to refer to monster to > which Andromeda was exposed. > Later on, Aristotle used ketos in his treatises Historia Animalium > (HA) [VI.12.1], and De Partibus Animalium(PA) [III.6.2] in the sense > of : > "any animal of the whale kind; a cetacean". > From there on, it went into Latin, (which also, incidentally, had > another word balaena, from which stemmed many derivatives in mod. > European languages). > > > > In the so-called Clementine Vulgate 1592 (named after Pope Clement > VIII 1592-1605), the standard RC Counter-Reformation revision/ > rescension of St. Jerome's well-known Latin rendering, the text of > Genesis 1:21 reads : > > "Creavitque Deus cete grandia...", where kete [κήτη] is the Greek > neuter accusative plural of ketus just adopted wholesale into Latin > (spelled cetus; Pl. cete), as the neuter acc. pl. of the adjective > 'grandis' demonstrates by concord. (Latin often just adopts Greek > words holus-bolus, and uses the Greek declensional case-endings on > Greek words, rather than the Latin ones - most well-educated Romans > had a fluent command of Hellenistic, if not Classical, Greek, having > in very many cases studied philosophy/literature/natural-science (or > attended 'finishing school' , as it were) in Athens, or some other > Greek city, perhaps in Ionia, the stamping-ground of early western > science. A cursory glance at Cicero's numerous very entertaining > letters will reveal many Greek words, freq. left in the original > script. A command of Greek, for cultivated Romans, was regarded much > like a knowledge of French & Latin used to be considered in Europe & > America, as a mark of breeding & superior education. What a falling- > off there has been, eh? Just kidding, folks. ;) ) > > > > Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota > translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for > comparison : > > "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin > ohna un qon he iyecen..." > > "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's > belly..." [KJV, 1611]; > > "For as Jonah was in the whale's belly three days & > nights..." [Douai-Rheims, NT 1582, OT 1609]; > > ὦσπερ γὰρ ἦν Ἰωνᾶς ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ > τοῦ κήτους τρεῖς ἠμέρας καὶ τρεῖς > νύκτας....[Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX > Book of Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ]; > > hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai > treis nyktas...[Above transliterated]; > > Sicut enim fuit Jonas in ventre ceti tribus diebus et tribus > noctibus...[Clem. Vulgate 1592]. > > > Here, we can see that the word of our NT Greek orig. ketos has been > rendered by hogan tanka /hog^a'N tha'Nka/. > > > > It would be fascinating to know the Dakota words used for 'whale/ > great fish' in the following passages also, if anybody has them at > their fingertips : > > JOB 7:12, and 41:1; > > EZEKIEL 32:2; > > JONAH 1:17; 2:10 > > > > Incidentally, the LXX original of both passages at JOB 7:12, & 40:20 > (numbering of verses in LXX, & Vulgate sometimes differs from KJV) > uses a different Greek word δράκων /drakon/ dragon,which KJV > chose to render with whale & leviathan respectively. This is another > of those words of somewhat vague & wide application, meaning in > Homeric & Classical Greek : snake; serpent (Autentrieth, Op.cit, > s.v.); described by Homer as being of huge size, "coiled like a > snake, of blood-red or dark colour, shot with changeful hues, > dwelling in mountains, feeding on poisonous herbs, with three > heads" (Iliad 2.200-208; 11.40; 12.201, 208) . "It appears to have > been really the python, or boa". [LSJ, s.v.]. > Aristotle in HA 8.13.3 used the word to denote a large sea-fish of > some description : "the great weever" [LSJ]. > > Kind regards, > > Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 22:02:45 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:02:45 +1100 Subject: Precious stones in Dakota Bk of Revelation In-Reply-To: <47987141020000A600004596@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Anthony, Interesting topic. Have just checked Rigg's Dakota version of the BOOK OF REVELATIONS (St. John's Apocalypse), entitled : "Wayuotanin Tawa Kin" /Wayu'othaN'iN Tha'wa KiN/ [lit.=his making manifest/his manifestation], at 4:2; and 21:18 to 21, where, as you know, all those exotic names for the precious stones occur in a large cluster. Unsurprisingly enough, (one supposes), they either appear transliterated virtually unchanged from the original Greek, or almost --- (in the following instance, for example, the Ancient voiceless/voiced Greek liquid continuant 'rho/ro' is assimilated in sound to the Dakota voiceless uvular fricative, for some reason. Influence of French-speaking assistants/informants perhaps?) -- or else are rendered by vague-seeming or generalized expressions like inyan teh^ika /i'NyaN theh^i'ka/ 'precious stone(s)! e.g. REV 4: 3 ============= "And he that sat was to look upon like jasper and a sardine stone : and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald ." (KJV) [N.B. : <...> denotes word not in original, inserted for sake of clarity.] Tuwe akan iyotanke cin he iwanyankapi kin inyan (teh^ika), iyaspis qa sah^dinos iyececa; qa oiyotanke kin ihdukshan wihmunke wan hmihbeya yanka, smah^agdos (inyan) kin iyececa. [Here (...)-bracketed words refer to aforesaid insertions, but ARE in orig. Dakota text.] Orig. NT Greek words here are, transliterated respectively : iaspidi [Dat Sg. Fem.] < iaspis 'jasper'; sardioi [Dat.Sg.Neut.] As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items > as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The > names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien > to native speakers of > English as they would be to Lakota speakers. > > Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Jan 27 19:07:06 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:07:06 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: (Clive) > BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting tongue also, ħuta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ħutiet ; > (Collective) ħut] is the usual word for fish. > Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. balienat, or balieniet. Clive, some 20 years back when in Għawdex (Gozo), I had been grappling with this very interesting language Malti for a couple of years; Maltese being the only "Arabic" I ever ventured to deal with, I was eager then to even filter out some news from the local newspapers. (I still own some yellowed copies, BTW.) Consulting my old sources (Kaptan Pawlu Buġeja's "Kelmet il-Malti - Dizzjunarju Malti-Ingliż Ingliż-Malti and a grammar book by Joseph Aquilina) I wasn't able to get a definite answer to your "quite simple" question ;-) Obviously the manifold plural forms in Maltese are so obvious for native speakers - and students of English - that teacher Buġeja didn't regard them as worth mentioning. So I've to dare a guess: the word for "whale" might be treated as a loan word (not being of Arabic descent rather than adopted from Sicilian or Italian la balena), and it - also - seems to be fem.. So I'd suggest baliena [IPA baliə:na] - balieni [IPA baliə:ni]. Having checked all the rules regarding "plural by suffixes" (a "broken plural" doesn't seem to be appropriate), this seems to be the most probable result - but who knows? :( My doubts regarding your ?balienat or **balieniet - the stress would've to move to the last syllable -> ?baliniet - derive from baliena 1) NOT being of Arabic origin, 2) maybe not being adapted to the semitic word- pattern of Maltese. Here (2) I might be wrong though. What do you mean? Kind regards (and apology for being far off-topic) Alfred _________________________________ Ṫaigmuakiṫo (AWT) Laḱota iyapi wóuŋspeḱiye http://www.fa-kuan.de/LAKSTRUCT.HTML -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 28 00:28:14 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:28:14 +1100 Subject: Interesting Sentence from E. A-O-H (& Maltese Cetaceans!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Alfred & other Siouanist friends, Since I seem to have caused this little digression in the first place, by quite provocatively (& incorrectly) speculating on that Maltese feminine plural, perhaps, by way of compromise, I might be allowed to 'atone' somewhat, by gently leading us back on-topic with a few observations on the structure & vocabulary of a most intriguing Lakhota sentence, from the passages quoted extensively here earlier this month, from Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Iyapi translation of Nolan Clark's "Brave Against the enemy"(1944), (with a little Maltese "whale-lore" appended by way of a footnote.)? Incidentally, my sentence also alludes to Bruce's earlier captivating topic of Lakhota words & expressions for FEELINGS/EMOTIONS. Here is the fascinating sentence in question [It occurs as the second sentence of the second Lakhota paragraph, (which begins : "Marie Heh^logeca....") in my post of Jan 7] : A) Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK TEXT [p.19] : Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. B) Ann NOLAN CLARK's original [p.18] : "She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager longing of the boy." [NOTES :] I will submit one interpretation, but naturally my mind is open to other viewpoints! (which is exactly why I am here:) ). That first 'kin' seems to be used to topicalize (focus) & nominalize/ sentence-embed(Ingham, Lakota, 12.2.2.) the first two words 'iteoyuze awichableze' [=What she perceived on their faces], in the very familiar manner of such sentences [Buech.Gr. p.230, #136, 2) a)] as : "wachin KIN he le e." [="this is what I want/what I want is this." -taku/takuku or some some such pronoun being understood there, one presumes.]. The immediately ensuing two hecha clauses, joined by conjunction 'na', beginning 'hignaku kin...hecha', and 'hokshila kin...hecha' appear to me to be PREDICATED of this topic, with 'ableze' appended anaphorically as a recapitulation, perhaps, of the embedded verb 'awichableze'. Thus I would translate more literally : "What she discerned on their facial features/from their facial expressions (iteoyuze), (was) that her husband was the kind of man (hecha) who experienced longing for things (wachantokpani), yet lacked all faith/confidence (wowachinye nica), and that, as for the boy (hokshila kin insh), his nature (hecha) was to be one of those (partitive 'kin') who become "squeaky-wheels" (waechinchinpika kin), when they set their hearts on something (wachantokpaninpi), - that much she saw clearly (ableze)." As regards that intriguing word 'waechinchinpika' (not in Riggs, or B- Md.), I had to guess at the meaning from the context, as well as being, of course, guided by Nolan Clark's English original. Also, B-Md's lovely word "waekichinchinke" glossed thus : "one who persists in asking; one who wants sthg. very badly, and often asks", based presumably on the same basic root : "chin", also sheds much semantic light, I believe. The animate plural -pi suffixes, on waechinchin(pi)ka & wachantokpani (pi), led me to realize that the final 'kin' before 'hecha ableze', in all likelihood, marked a Partitive construction with hecha. Also, one has often heard people endowed with such traits, characterized as "squeaky-wheels", hence that rendering. Kind regards to all, Clive. On 28/01/2008, at 6:07 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote: > (Clive) > > > BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting > tongue also, ħuta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ħutiet ; > > (Collective) ħut] is the usual word for fish. > > > Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. > balienat, or balieniet. > > > > Clive, some 20 years back when in Għawdex (Gozo), I had been > grappling with this very interesting language Malti for a couple of > years; Maltese being the only "Arabic" I ever ventured to deal > with, I was eager then to even filter out some news from the local > newspapers. > (I still own some yellowed copies, BTW.) > Consulting my old sources (Kaptan Pawlu Buġeja's "Kelmet il-Malti - > Dizzjunarju Malti-Ingliż Ingliż-Malti and a grammar book by Joseph > Aquilina) I wasn't able to get a definite answer to your "quite > simple" question ;-) Obviously the manifold plural forms in Maltese > are > so obvious for native speakers - and students of English - that > teacher Buġeja didn't regard them as worth mentioning. > > So I've to dare a guess: the word for "whale" might be treated as a > loan word (not being of Arabic descent rather than adopted from > Sicilian or > Italian la balena), and it - also - seems to be fem.. So I'd > suggest baliena [IPA baliə:na] - balieni [IPA baliə:ni]. Having > checked all the rules > regarding "plural by suffixes" (a "broken plural" doesn't seem to > be appropriate), this seems to be the most probable result - but > who knows? :( > My doubts regarding your ?balienat or **balieniet - the stress > would've to move to the last syllable -> ?baliniet - derive from > baliena 1) NOT being > of Arabic origin, 2) maybe not being adapted to the semitic word- > pattern of Maltese. Here (2) I might be wrong though. What do you > mean? > > Kind regards (and apology for being far off-topic) > > Alfred : Ṫaigmuakiṫo (AWT) Dear Alfred, You are absolutely correct, imho! Baliena is of course a LOAN word, very probably from Sicilian balena (f.sg.) (whale) and as such, most unlikely to take one of those native Maltese semitic plural formations, either by feminine plural suffix (-at/-iet), or Broken Plural. Further, since diphthong -ie- only occurs in stressed syllables (J.Aquilina, TYMaltese, 1965, p.28) writing a word balieniet would grossly violate a major orthographical rule of Maltese! Finally, since feminine words ending in -a in Sicilian regularly form their plurals in -i (unlike in Standard written Italiano) [Joseph E. Privitera ; "Beginner's Sicilian", Hippocrene Books, 1998, p.44], so that balena would have Sicilan plural baleni, I reckon that your suggestion there is spot on 'the money'! [See also Acquilina, op.cit., p.77, 1. (i).; Capt. Paul Buggeja, "Maltese-How To Read & Speak It", Il-Hajja Press, Malta, 1958, 1974, p.107] There are lots of similar feminine words of similar origins, such as : karta/karti 'paper'; bolla/bolli 'postage stamp'; kuccarina/ kuccarini 'teaspoon'; karozza/karozzi 'car', which confirm your conjecture. However, a notable exception is 'furketta' Pl. 'frieket' -perhaps it was more thoroughly semiticized, because 'borrowed' earlier? Mea culpa, Well done! Alles gute, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 10:33:10 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:33:10 +0000 Subject: Precious stones in Dakota Bk of Revelation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Clive: Many thanks for this! Such passages are replete with loans in so many languages, and it's interesting to see Riggs et al transliterating Greek forms in order to provide equivalents. To be fair, it's no more than what English translators were doing for English! I don't have many dealings with Makcems, though a colleague does. But as to the Scousers who do live close by, may I refer you to the following: http://www.openhousepress.co.uk/catalog.htm It's just out and available. I had 6 years of Latin and 4 of Attic Greek; my Hebrew is scanty thougn the scriopt presnets no problems. (I've written about Judezmo and Yiddish in my time.) I know more Arabic than Hebrew but am a long, LONG way form being fluent in it. Is EAOH's work available anywhere? I'd known of its existence for some time - similar translations wree made into Navaho and, I believe, Hopi - but I haven't seen it. Best Anthony >>> Clive Bloomfield 01/26/08 10:02 pm >>> Anthony, Interesting topic. Have just checked Rigg's Dakota version of the BOOK OF REVELATIONS (St. John's Apocalypse), entitled : "Wayuotanin Tawa Kin" /Wayu'othaN'iN Tha'wa KiN/ [lit.=his making manifest/his manifestation], at 4:2; and 21:18 to 21, where, as you know, all those exotic names for the precious stones occur in a large cluster. Unsurprisingly enough, (one supposes), they either appear transliterated virtually unchanged from the original Greek, or almost --- (in the following instance, for example, the Ancient voiceless/voiced Greek liquid continuant 'rho/ro' is assimilated in sound to the Dakota voiceless uvular fricative, for some reason. Influence of French-speaking assistants/informants perhaps?) -- or else are rendered by vague-seeming or generalized expressions like inyan teh^ika /i'NyaN theh^i'ka/ 'precious stone(s)! e.g. REV 4: 3 ============= "And he that sat was to look upon like jasper and a sardine stone : and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald ." (KJV) [N.B. : <...> denotes word not in original, inserted for sake of clarity.] Tuwe akan iyotanke cin he iwanyankapi kin inyan (teh^ika), iyaspis qa sah^dinos iyececa; qa oiyotanke kin ihdukshan wihmunke wan hmihbeya yanka, smah^agdos (inyan) kin iyececa. [Here (...)-bracketed words refer to aforesaid insertions, but ARE in orig. Dakota text.] Orig. NT Greek words here are, transliterated respectively : iaspidi [Dat Sg. Fem.] < iaspis 'jasper'; sardioi [Dat.Sg.Neut.] As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items > as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The > names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien > to native speakers of > English as they would be to Lakota speakers. > > Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Jan 29 20:22:06 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:22:06 +0100 Subject: Interesting Sentence from E. A-O-H (& Maltese Cetaceans!) In-Reply-To: <300E9D0D-7B27-4714-88D4-9C2F3B126637@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Am 28.01.2008 um 01:28 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > A) Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK TEXT [p.19] : > > Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye > nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika > wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. > > B) Ann NOLAN CLARK's original [p.18] : > > "She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager > longing of the boy." > > (...) > As regards that intriguing word 'waechinchinpika' (not in Riggs, or > B-Md.), I had to guess at the meaning from the context, as well as > being, of course, guided by Nolan Clark's English original. > Also, B-Md's lovely word "waekichinchinke" glossed thus : "one who > persists in asking; one who wants sthg. very badly, and often asks", > based presumably on the same basic root : "chin", also sheds much > semantic light, I believe. > The animate plural -pi suffixes, on waechinchin(pi)ka & > wachantokpani(pi), led me to realize that the final 'kin' before > 'hecha ableze', in all likelihood, marked a Partitive construction > with hecha. > Also, one has often heard people endowed with such traits, > characterized as "squeaky-wheels", hence that rendering. Dear Clive, I like your interpretation (and, of course, the text!). What's really fascinating for me is by what economical means of grammar the most sophisticated sentences can be expressed in iyapi! (Okay, this original one doesn't seem to be too complex.) Also, I not only learnt a new nice word (waekicincinke - there are many to be found in Toka wan ..., though) but also those squeaky- wheels (getting the grease) - Nörgler, Meckerer, Nervensäge, Quengler etc. were new to me :) Thanks! Alfred _______________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 04:59:56 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:59:56 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha Message-ID: Dear List: Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. Thanks, Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 7 05:55:34 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:55:34 +1100 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) Message-ID: New Years greetings, friends, Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of yesterday, and of tomorrow.] I believe it be a particularly fine example of the many writerly virtues of the work of two exceptionally gifted literary artists, one in the English language. This particular passage, imho, shows the styles of both writers at their best, as well as a constituting a splendid example of cultivated modern written Lakhota : Ms. Ann Nolan CLARK (1898-1995), [Link :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Nolan_Clark] and the other in Lakhota, Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK (possibly. born c.1855, or 1875 - prob. the former, if he was in fact the father of Frank Fools Crow's wife.) As stated here earlier, this man was an Oglala elder & long- experienced translator of the 1920's, '30's & 40's, who had been engaged by the then Bureau of Indian Affairs to translate some of Clark's graded school readers. This particular book seems to me to be the most advanced one, from the aspect of complexity of language & psychology. The earlier ones in the series seem simpler. To set the scene a little, the boy LOUIE HEH^LOGECA (Louie Hollowhorn) and his father JOE, a poor, but honest cattleman, are enjoying a visit to the "Sioux Country Fair" (Lakhota Okhiinyanke KiN). Like country people the world over, they cast a discerning but wistful eye over the various winning exhibits, including in this instance, the prize-bull! ( To save time with the shift-key, I will forgo writing the nasal "N" symbol, write "z^" as "j", use "g" rather than "g^", and write "s^" as "sh" from hereon in, but apart from that I'll try to transcribe as precisely as I am able to. Hope this inconsistency will not prove too annoying!) Louie says to his Dad, Joe : "Ate wanyanki yetho, hinyete kin hetan na sinte kin hehan iyagleya chuwi kin lila blaska yelo?" Joe answers : "Taku oyas'in iyojula thanchan kithun welo. Thabloka kin le etan optaye washte wan ichagapi okihi hecha yelo!" [="Father do you see how level his back is from his shoulders to his tail?" Joe's answer : "He has everything, alright. There is a bull to sire a herd!"] (At this point, the wife & mother, MARIE HEH^LOGECA, regards father and son with pensive eyes, and reflects to herself) : Marie Heh^logeca hingnaku na chinza kin kici lila iawanyank wichakhuwa he. Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. "Tokheshkhe" echin, "Lakhota kin taku wanji aiyotanh^ci chinpi khesh t'inza yuhapi kta okihipi shni? Le wichasha mithawa kin waniyetu wikcemna top ptegleshka optaye wan wichayuichagin kte h^cin, na lila wowashi echun, na wanwichaglagye h^ci sanp conala ayapi, na tonakecapi kin he wiyawapi kin waniyetu yamni ihunniyan sotapi. Na anpetu kin lehanyan taku yuha he? Takuni h^ci yuha shni. Ptegleshka opawinge wikcemna wanji wicayuha tka k'un etanhan tahalo nahuhu e kayesh yuha shni," echin najin he. [=Marie Hollowhorn watched her husband and son. She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager longing of the boy. "Why is it," she thought, "that Indians never have what they want most? Here is my man who worked for forty years building a herd and had to see it dwindle and die in as many months. What has he now? He has nothing. Not even the hides and the bones are left from a herd of a thousand head!"] (Among Marie's answers to her own question, are the following thoughts on her husband's "undoing" & lack of conventional "success" : his great sense of duty, and respect for traditional Lakota community-based values, in a word : his essential decency & integrity of character. Joe Hehlogeca, you see, has been a paragon of the traditional Lakhota virtues, especially Generosity (Wachanteognakapi). I found this incredibly moving, and indeed amazingly empathetic, considering it was written in the 1940's by a BIA teacher! -C.B.) : Tkha hingnaku kin Lakhota kin he un hecheca shni kin he akhesh wicala. Thiyata wichithanwokshan Washicu pteyuha wichasha thipi kin hena Lakhota wah^panicapi kin insh eya iyehanyan wah^panicapi. Washicu kin lena insh eya ptegleshka optaye thanka wichayuhapi na lila awanwichaglakapi, na echekche akih^'ant'api, oblaye makhoche amagaju shni un cha gu na shpan chankhe, nainsh osmaka kin iyojugjula owashme kin echekche ichipahahaya ptegleshka that'eca kin tasakyela h^paya hiyeye. Ho hel Lakhota kin ishnala wakhiphapi shni, Lakhota pte yuhapi kin ecelapi shni. Tkha tuwe oyas'in he akhiphapi. [=But honesty told her that it was not because he was an Indian. The white ranchers around them were as poor as the Indians were. these white men had owned herds too and had watched them starve to death on the parched rainless plains or had found them piled in layers of frozen carcasses in some snow-filled ravine. These things did not happen only to Indians, only to Indian owned cattle. they happened to all.] (It would be fascinating to know Afraid-Of-Hawk's thoughts as he translated that passage! Might his feelings have been mixed? I do not presume to know, of course, but those are thought-provoking observations, are they not? -C.B.) Shunkakhan oshpaye wan nakun tukte ehan wichayuhapi tkha cha he kiksuye. Lena, nakun, iyuha tokhah'anpi. Ho akhe he ichunhan wowicakhe un hena hechetu chankhe akhesh heogna wicalaic'iye. Ungna nakun waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na omakha opta puze kin, na taku hecheca wicashepi kin hena kho wanice k'eyas ungna hingnaku kin hechenash anpetu kin lehanyan shunkakhan nicin kte sece. [=She remembered the herds of horses they had owned once. These, too, were gone. But here again honesty made her admit truth to herself. Even if there had been no blizzards nor droughts nor hard times her husband might not have owned horses today.] Tohanl chinca yukhanpi channa iyena hokshichanlkiyapi na sunkotuh^'anpi, na thakojakpaku yunkhan channa, na chincapi kin tohanl wanji okichiyuze echunpi channa hena el wawokihanpi na otuh^'anpi na wih^peyapi, na tohantuke esha thiwahe thawa kin el oiyokiphi wanji el wichahi kin hena iyohila el sunkotuh'an s'a cha hena iyuha kiksuya najin he. Hona hehanl nakun tohanl thiwahe thawa kin el chinca nainsh thitakuyepi wanji wichunt'e woakhipha yukhan channa wochante shica un shunkotuh^'anpi yukhe. Wana lehantu kin shunkakhan nainsh ptegleshka unmani yuhapi shni. [= She remembered the horses he had given away when each of her sons were born, when grandchildren had come, at marriages, at feasts, at any time that joy had entered their home. And again he had given away his horses to show his grief when death had taken members of his family. Now they had neither horses nor cattle.] Waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na thate thanka, nainsh oyate thawicoh^'anpi kin , hena ecela un hecheca shni. Tkha taku oyas'in un hecheca. Mniwanca khowakatan okichize thanka k'un hehan lila wichoshkinciye, pte waniyanpi wichayuhapi kin thalo yutapi kta cha un wiyophewicakiya iyowinwichakhiyapi na iyowichapashtakapi. Tanyan mazaska iyuwinpi, tkha mazaska kin wiyopheya glusotapi na ptegleshka optaye thanka ota k'un conala oglaptapi. [=It had not been only the blizzard, the tornadoes, the customs of the people. It had been everything. In the boom days during the world war they had been encouraged to sell their cattle for beef. It had brought in money, but the money had been spent and the herds depleted.] Ho he iyohakap taku oyas'in khul iyaye k'un he e, na omakha puze k'un he e, na thate s'a k'un hena hiyawichagle kin hechun. Ptegleshka optaye tonakel owichaglaptapi k'un hena hehanl t'api. Wana lila waniyetu ota thate s'a kin he oblaye makhoche thowashte tka k'un ohiniyan thate, chankhe makhoche kin akanl ooshkinciye washte tkha k'un he ataya thate kin ikaphan ih^peye. [=Then had come the Depression and the drought and the winds. What had remained of the herds had died. For years now the winds had blown over the plains, beating to dust the life of the plains.] Ho hetanhan ptegleshka ichah^wichayapi wichoh^'an kin he iyatakunishni kin he wowicakhe s'elecheca. Hehan ooshkinciye k'un hena hecheya takuni kte shni sel? Hiya! Okihiphicashni! Inchin, wichasha otoiyohila thonipi kin he pte ichah^yapi kin hecela wachinyanpi kin heun. Wichoni thawapi kin he e. Ho cha he un etanhan tokhetuke c'eyas oihanke kte sni. Tokhe esha magaju s'a ni! Tkha magajushni un. Chankhe pheli kin ataya sheca. [=Could it be true that cattle raising was doomed? That its day was done? No! No! (lit. 'impossible!') Cattle was all they had to live for. It was their life. It must not end. If only rains would come! but there was no rain. The grass was dead.] ========================================================== I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as much as I do! I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or corrections members may care to make. Best regards, Clive Bloomfield. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 12:01:49 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:01:49 -0600 Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS Message-ID: In Ken Miner's 1984 Winnebago Field Lexicon (June, 1984), he listed 6 pages of verb roots. Most roots are similar with Ioway, Otoe and of course, other Siouan languages. Is there a simple formula, perhaps, to convert the roots to fit their Ioway, Otoe counterparts/ cognates?? Often in trying to find an IO root equivalent among the WINN roots, I run into discrepancies and other problems. Although my inquiry may be naive, perhaps, Jonathan, or whosoever can respond. Jimm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tmleonard at cox.net Mon Jan 7 16:03:37 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:03:37 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pon'ka i'e du'ba btha pi. Tom Leonard Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Dear List: > Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other > individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am > being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. > Thanks, > Jimm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at wsc.edu Mon Jan 7 16:45:26 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:45:26 -0600 Subject: Ponca-Omaha Message-ID: Jimm - you could include my name if you want, though I haven't been particularly "active" in this area lately. Catherine Rudin >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 01/06/08 10:59 PM >>> Dear List: Other than KathyS, JohnK, Gordon, Mark, Ardis, who are the other individuals active in Ponca-Omaha language and linguistics as I am being requested for possible consultants by an Otoe-Ponca speaker. Thanks, Jimm From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jan 7 22:05:21 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:05:21 -0600 Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS Message-ID: Jimm, If the root ends in the syllable -ke, replace it with -ka instead. If the root ends in a consonant, add an -e at the end. Replace the following syllables: Change kara to gra kere to gre kiri to gri koro to gro kuru to gru para to bra pere to bre piri to bri poro to bro puru to bru sara to sra (same with other identical vowels) shara to shra " " " " " xara to xra " Generally speaking, move the accent back one syllable to the left. This should get you pretty close to I/O/M. There are a few other things. And, oh yes, the three nasal vowels belong in the above sets of CVCV syllables where the two vowels are identical too. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks Sent: Mon 1/7/2008 6:01 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Subject: WINN (HOCK) ROOTS In Ken Miner's 1984 Winnebago Field Lexicon (June, 1984), he listed 6 pages of verb roots. Most roots are similar with Ioway, Otoe and of course, other Siouan languages. Is there a simple formula, perhaps, to convert the roots to fit their Ioway, Otoe counterparts/ cognates?? Often in trying to find an IO root equivalent among the WINN roots, I run into discrepancies and other problems. Although my inquiry may be naive, perhaps, Jonathan, or whosoever can respond. Jimm From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jan 7 22:16:06 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:16:06 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From jmcbride at kawnation.com Tue Jan 8 16:02:21 2008 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:02:21 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 18:08:51 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:08:51 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: I didn't check out the site before forwarding the info. I assumed that plain vanilla "Linguistics" was covered and that some idiot in DC put the "astrobiology" there for some reason known only to him or the committee he represents. My Star Trek education tells me that the study of life elsewhere in the universe is Exo-biology. Who knew that Geo. Bush had already decided otherwise? I just figured that many of the languages we study would be covered in any program with the name "Lewis and Clark" in it. The linguist, Charles Hockett, once published an article with the approximate title of "How to Learn Martian" in a sci-fi book edited (if memory serves) by one Martin Greenberg. It was actually an elementary descriptive linguistics course (find the phonemes, then the morphemes, word boundaries, etc.). Maybe it needs updating so we can all understand how Martian manupulates "spec of IQ". ;-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 10:02 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 18:27:38 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:27:38 -0600 Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: Oops, sorry, This is APS in Philadelphia, not some govt. program in DC. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 12:08 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I didn't check out the site before forwarding the info. I assumed that plain vanilla "Linguistics" was covered and that some idiot in DC put the "astrobiology" there for some reason known only to him or the committee he represents. My Star Trek education tells me that the study of life elsewhere in the universe is Exo-biology. Who knew that Geo. Bush had already decided otherwise? I just figured that many of the languages we study would be covered in any program with the name "Lewis and Clark" in it. The linguist, Charles Hockett, once published an article with the approximate title of "How to Learn Martian" in a sci-fi book edited (if memory serves) by one Martin Greenberg. It was actually an elementary descriptive linguistics course (find the phonemes, then the morphemes, word boundaries, etc.). Maybe it needs updating so we can all understand how Martian manupulates "spec of IQ". ;-) Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 10:02 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Bob, Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be interested in this. Bob The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research American Philosophical Association (APS) URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm Deadline: February 15 Scope The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will not be restricted to these fields. Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field Research in Astrobiology. Eligibility Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval of two years. Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. Awards Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. Deadline February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and beyond. It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Requirements Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with notification of an award. How to Apply Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to applications at amphilsoc.org. Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been sent in time. From rankin at ku.edu Tue Jan 8 21:35:53 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:35:53 -0600 Subject: FW: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Message-ID: This from Armik: ________________________________ From: Mirzayan Armik [mailto:mirzayan at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Tue 1/8/2008 12:54 PM To: Justin McBride Cc: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Re: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work Hi Justin and Bob, Looking at the APS Lewis and Clark Fund website, I think that the general scope of the fund DOES cover "standard" linguistics. It's listed in the disciplines they mention: archeology, anthropology, biology, ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology. Since the grants are not just limited ot the above list, I think the part about Astrobiology is a separate note, specifically directed to researchers working in projects that are speicfic to Astrobiology. Although, I don't think they were very clear in their note about making this clear. As I understand it - not being an expert on this - Astrobiology is the study of the origin, evlution, and conditions for life-formation on Earth and elsewhere in the Universe. It is a cross-disciplinary study, so I suppose one could include linguitics as a component of it, though I had not thought of that possiblity. The main concerns of Astrobiology seem to be related to the questions of the conditions for basic formation and subsequent maintainance of life in a given environment. One looks at things like places on Earth now that might be similar to the conditions of the "early Earth" (whatever we think early Earth might have been like), and also at environments in other places in the Solar System - Mars, or on/in one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn - which might be, or in the past might have been, more-or-less "friendly" to life formation, regardless of how complex that life-form is or might have been. (I tried sending this message to the Siouan List and it bounced off saying it couldn't post to the list from my email address ...). best, Armik ------ Armik Mirzayan Lingusitics UCB Boulder, Colorado, USA On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Justin McBride wrote: > Bob, > > Thanks for thinking of me. I performed a Google search that confirmed my > guess: Astrobiology really is the study of life in the universe. With that > in mind, I'm not real sure how I'd relate to the grant. > > I assume the linguistics connection would be something along the lines of > speculation regarding the nature of alien communication (assuming that alien > life is complex enough to have a capacity for communication), in hopes that > one day we may be called upon to attempt to communicate with one or more > alien species. This is interesting, I guess, but it's pretty far removed > from what I feel are the real functions of linguistics right now: > Documentation and analysis (including theorization) of human languages. > > But then again, if hostile aliens land tomorrow, I'm going to be banking on > the fact that someone's made a little more progress than Spielberg's > music-and-blinking-lights approach. :) > > -Justin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 4:16 PM > Subject: APS Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Work > > > I'm not sure what astrobiology is, but I thought some of you might be > interested in this. > > Bob > > > The Lewis and Clark Fund for Exploration and Field Research > American Philosophical Association (APS) > URL: http://www.amphilsoc.org/grants/lewisandclark.htm > Deadline: February 15 > > > Scope > The Lewis and Clark Fund (initially supported by the Stanford > Ascherman/Baruch Blumberg Fund for Basic Science, established by a > benefaction from the late Stanford Ascherman, MD, of San Francisco) > encourages exploratory field studies for the collection of specimens and > data and to provide the imaginative stimulus that accompanies direct > observation. Applications are invited from disciplines with a large > dependence on field studies, such as archeology, anthropology, biology, > ecology, geography, geology, linguistics, and paleontology, but grants will > not be restricted to these fields. > > Graduate students and postdoctoral and junior scientists wishing to pursue > projects in astrobiological field studies should consult the program > description and forms for the Lewis and Clark Fund in Exploration and Field > Research in Astrobiology. > > Eligibility > Grants will be available to doctoral students. Postdoctoral fellows, > master's degree candidates, and undergraduates are not eligible. Applicants > who have received Lewis and Clark Fund grants may reapply after an interval > of two years. > > Applicants should ask their academic advisor to write one of the two letters > of recommendation, specifying the student's qualifications to carry out the > proposed work and the educational content of the trip. Budgets should be > limited to travel and related expenses, including personal field equipment. > > The competition is open to U.S. residents wishing to carry out research > anywhere in the world. Foreign applicants must either be based at a U.S. > institution or plan to carry out their work in the United States. > > When appropriate, the applicant should provide assurances that safety > measures will be taken for potentially hazardous projects. When necessary, > the applicant and his or her supervisor should discuss the field training > that will be provided and the provisions for experienced supervision. > > Awards > Amounts will depend on travel costs, but will ordinarily be in the range of > several hundred dollars up to about $5,000. Grants are payable to the > individual applicant. Lewis and Clark Fund grants are taxable income, but > the Society is not required to report payments. It is recommended that grant > recipients discuss their reporting obligations with their tax advisors. > > Deadline > February 15, 2008, with notification in May, for work in June 2008 and > beyond. > > It is the applicant's responsibility to verify that all materials and > letters of support have reached the Society; call 215-440-3429 or send an > e-mail to LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. > > Requirements > Each Lewis and Clark Field Scholar will submit a brief report on his or her > trip for archiving in the APS Library. Instructions will be provided with > notification of an award. > > How to Apply > Retrieve the 4-page application form. Questions concerning the eligibility > of a project, applicant, or use of funds should be sent to Linda Musumeci, > Research Administrator of the APS, at LMusumeci at amphilsoc.org. > > Maintain the specified 4-page format; do not add extra pages. Use nothing > smaller than 11 pt, and respond to every section in the space provided. The > completed application should be submitted as an e-mail attachment to > applications at amphilsoc.org. > > Download the referee letter, forward it to your letter writers, notify them > of the deadline, and instruct them to send the completed form to > lettersofsupport at amphilsoc.org; confirm with them that the letters have been > sent in time. > > From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Wed Jan 9 04:14:17 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:14:17 -0600 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as much as I do! I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or corrections members may care to make. Clive: It may be a bit much to expect your level of appreciation to be wide spread among a group of professional linguists, whose primary focus is on analysis and language dynamics, so you will have to look to the exceptions. I myself do like to the reviews how contemporary literature is expressed in the Lakota language, as I am involved to a much lesser degree how modern literature might be composed in similar languages. Most of the community languages study is directed towards basic communication, with few instances that I have come upon that encourages, even rewards oral or written composition on contemporary subjects. It is left to the imagination, as to how Native languages could blossom if the notion would become widespread. So for my part, you can continue to share your Native prose discoveries. Jimm PS: Are you aware of what became of Emil AFH and Ann NC, and if they had further opportunities to apply their word craft? ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Bloomfield To: SIOUAN LIST LIST Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:55 PM Subject: Re : A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of yesterday, and of tomorrow.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 10 07:25:29 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:25:29 +1100 Subject: A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: <35B962DFDBF249C285263126A40F68D9@JGHP> Message-ID: Jimm, Thank you so much for this generous-spirited & thoughtful reply! Your note of caution to me is obviously well-considered, and straightforwardly made, and I appreciate that. I did realize that I was addressing a group of trained linguistic analysts & professional Siouanists, rather than an audience of literary aesthetes, and yet, in a way, you are exactly the people I've long been wanting to talk to about this, and to learn more from! I wish to subject my intuitions to the disciplined & rational light of linguistic science. May I explain myself a little further? : As I say, I am acutely conscious of a pronounced emotive component in my enthusiasm for the rich Lakhota style of Emil AFH, but I wish to counterbalance & critique that possible bias with as rigorous a linguistic analysis of AFH's Lakhota vocabulary & syntax, as his texts can possibly bear. It is about much more, for me, than merely confirming my private prejudices & inevitable biasses. I'd like to ascertain whether, (as I'm now strongly inclined to believe) this man Emil AFH. is a significant & remarkable, indeed "sui generis", Lakhotaiyapi author. My personal "discovery" of his quality occurred sometime after I'd begun to seriously & systematically apply myself to the study of Lakhota & Dakota, about 5 -6 years back, using B&D (1941), Buechel's 1939 Gr. (1939), Bruce Ingham's 2001 "Lakota" monograph, Rood & Taylor's CULP material & Sketch, MA & PhD theses such as those by Willem DeReuse & Berthold Simons, Internet sites such Jan Ullrich's invaluable one, and various journal papers from IJAL by many scholars here. Having also read with close attention by then, a great deal of of Buechel's Lakhota Bible History stories(1924), all of Ella C. Deloria's (1932) Dakota Tales, and as much of the Bushotter corpus as I could manage, I next acquired a copy of "Watakpeya Tanka" ("The Great Crusader"), his 1925 translation of an English version by an American Jesuit Fr. Bernard Wildenhues S.J. of a German language abridgement (1922) of Fr. George Schurhammer S.J.'s voluminous biography of the Roman-Catholic Missionary Saint of the Far East, St. Francis Xavier. I have read & studied all three of those texts now, and am in the process of a close reading & rereading of every one of those Lakhota language BIA readers, translated by E. AFH. I was utterly astonished to find, in the first few chapters of "WT", evocative Lakhota language descriptions of intimidatingly majestic Mediaeval castles on mountain tops in the Basque country of NE Spain, (Xavier's stamping ground, as you will no doubt know). I think it was then that I realized that I'd stumbled across something quite extraordinary. E. AFH's Lakhota style seemed so difficult, &, in some ways, unlike any of the Lakhota I was already familiar with, both in subject matter, vocab. and to a certain extent syntactically. That encounter so fired my imagination & stimulated the intellect, that I became determined to learn more about him, and analyse his fascinatingly difficult Lakhota. I'd like to tell you a little more about my personal background, to enable you & other members here to form a clear picture of "where I'm coming from", as they say. I realize that excessive & gratuitous personal revelations are not encouraged on what must remain a list for scholars, but perhaps just this once, it may be necessary & relevant for me to clarify matters, & tell a little of what I'm on about? I dare say that, as one might reasonably expect in a professional community, most of you on the list would be well acquainted, through conferences, shared professional experiences, etc., over many years. I would like to introduce myself a little, & to get to know you all somewhat better. I am not (obviously) a professional linguist, & do not presume to be your equals in depth of knowledge & sophistication in that particular discipline. However, I have been fortunate enough to have been on the 'receiving-end' of some excellent training, under the 'old' (60's & 70's), quite exacting, university r?gime/ dispensation in the field of Classics (Ancient/Mod.Greek & Latin), esp. in Classical Philology and textual criticism. I was privileged to have been trained, by lecturers & senior academics who had earned their "wings" at Ox-bridge or the U.S. 'Ivy League', to take a classical text 'apart', parsing each word precisely, and by constantly analysing the syntactic contruction of its clauses & long "periods" minutely, as one goes through it. We also had to learn composition/translation in those languages, an art which has mostly now become a thing of the past, practically everywhere, nowadays. To me, its linguistic value alone in taking one "inside" the language, so to speak, made it well worth the effort! So I am very at home with getting my philological "teeth", so to speak, into more or less demanding & complex texts such as Homer's "Iliad/Odyssey", Pindar's "Odes", Aeschylus' "Oresteia", Sophocles' "Oedipus Tyrannus", Horace's "Odes', or Virgil's "Aeneid" - masterpieces to which , naturally, it is difficult, (not to say impossible!), not to have a frequently earth-shattering emotional reaction, as well as sheer intellectual pleasure! I have also studied Italian at tertiary level to the point of reading Leopardi, & Dante's Inferno, and have been studying many languages of diverse families for some decades, at least since I was a brow-beaten Catholic altar boy, tremblingly repeating the Latin responses during the old Mass from about 1958 onwards! Basically, I want to learn to apply those analytical skills, to these texts in Lakhota/Dakota/Nakota/Nakoda, in particular, and eventually to learn as much as possible, about the other languages belonging to this fascinating family! I have learned to be on guard against possible Eurocentric linguistic "blinkers", having studied a few non-Indo E. languages such as Finnish, Turkish in some depth, & a measure of Georgian & Classical Arabic as well. It seems to me that these 1940's BIA reader's translated by E. AFH are a potential "well of (Lakhotaiyapi) undefiled", as Dryden said about the Middle English (mutatis mutandis) of Chaucer's CanterburyTales (I think). So many of the words in Afraid-Of-Hawk, EITHER do not occur at all in Buechel-Manhart -- I do understand that Rigg's works & B-Md. was a groundbreaking, pioneering work, and would not wish to be thought of as belittling Fr. Buech.'s fine achievement -- OR else one has to hunt them up, & do some (hopefully) educated guesswork on the evidence of any cognate roots, using such knowledge as one may have acquired of the laws of Lakhota Word-building (esp. gratia B&D). I find the "discovery" entailed by this process continually fascinating, and sometimes even exhilarating! I haven't derived such intellectual & emotional pleasure from a text, since grappling with the rigours of Thucydidean speeches, which any Classicist will tell you can be horrendously difficult, even for very experienced scholars! I would submit that there is a treasure house of new vocabulary, & perhaps new light shed on some aspects of lakhota syntax, to be gained from close study of E. AFH's texts. For instance only last night, I found the word : "woguonazeye" / wog^uonazeye/ (presumably with accent on initial syllable (?). E.A. Kennard did not transcribe word accents ) used for "COFFE-POT" [Brave Ag.The Enemy" 1944, p.163]. I had already learned, thanks to Bruce's estimable efforts, the word "w?khalye". Emil AFH's word is not to be found in B-Md., or Riggs, but "og^?" : 'scraps; dregs; coffee grounds' is! Nor does the item "onazeye" occur there, but, sure enough, 'naz?yA' 'to filter' is there, so with some pondering on the functions & nuances of those locative prefixes, again by the grace of Buechel, B&D, Riggs and Ingham, it is not too difficult to work out how the word came to be used with that meaning. Two further examples : the reflexive verb 'wicalaic'iyA' <'wicala/ in the sense of 'induce oneself believe/persuade oneself--->admit/ confess to oneself (a home truth)' occurs in the 4th para. of that extended excerpt I posted from BAtE [p.19] the other day, but is nowhere in Buechel, or Riggs. In the 2nd, paragraph, [Ibid. same page] : "waNwichaglagyeh^ci" which appears to have an adverbial sense something like "under his very eyes", or perhaps better : "under their owner's very gaze" (his herds died away). Clearly, from "WaNyaNkA". Could it be here a truncated or "frozen" Possessive-Dative verb-form, used ADVERBIALLY (adverb- equivalent? of accompanying circumstance? a 'Participle' as Buechel would have it) to qualify that principal clause verb? ["... (ptegleshka optaye waN).....saNp conala AYAPI"]. [=under their owner's very (-h^ci") gaze, a buffalo herd dwindled way.] Lastly, I would like to say that any Lakhota writer who is capable of opening a novella, as Emil AFH does in BAtE [p.5], with a dramatically vivid scene of a car screeching to a halt in a cloud of dust, as a teenage boy leaps athletically from the moving vehicle before it arrives, in florid Lakhota, has won me over for life! ;D I think he must have had a truly remarkable mind! An artist with words, in my opinion, whose life, given his elderly status in the early '40's, must encompassed profound traditional knowledge, in addition to substantial experience of the modern world of the early to mid XXc.! The whole concept of Native American writers producing their own literature in their own language, e.g. poetry (as with the wonderful Lucie Tapahonso, or Rex Lee Jim for Navajo, mingled with English) using the native tongue, or biographies, or novellas (even in translation) like Emil AFH, really excites me. Yet I suppose from a publisher's mundane angle, they wouldn't exactly 'leap off the shelf', as they say? If only Emil had written an Autobiography (? la Bushotter), or a Lakhota novel! His long life must have been so interesting. To answer your last inquiry Jimm, I do not know exactly when Emil AFH died, but I think that he may have been the same Emil who is mentioned in "Fools Crow" by Th.Mails, as the father in law in Chief Frank. If that is he, then he was possibly born around 1855, which is also remarkable because if so, he must have been in his 80's when translating those readers, and had truly, by then, been a denizen of two cultural universes! Perhaps that may explain the difficulty & richness of much of his (old fashioned?) vocabulary? I have acquired all of his BIA texts, as well as two seemingly relatively unremarkable articles in English by him from the old "Indian Sentinel" from 1932, and 1943 respectively. I wrote to the Archivist at the Oglala Lakota College, last year, but received no reply. Perhaps they thought I must be what we Aussies call a "ratbag" ("crack-pot" in American, I understand)! Not to worry. ;) As for Ann NOLAN CLARK, here is a Wiki article for you : ? Hope I have made my perspective & purposes here a little bit clearer now! Next time I contribute, I'll hold back on the autobiographical detail! ;) So, thanks again for giving me a hearing, Jimm Good Tracks - if I could say that in Oto, Ioway, or Missouri, (or Pawnee, or Winnebago), I'd have done so forthwith! ;) Maybe someday I will. I have been studying with great interest, the folk tales & letters on that terrific Omaha-Ponca website, and will continue to do so! Maybe that will take me at least one step nearer to your Chiwere branch! I was intending to learn enough Biloxi to write to Dave Kaufman : I ordered the Einaudi grammar on Interlibrary loan from Sydney University's Fisher library, but was dismayed to learn that the book had been stolen from the shelf! So we can surmise that there is at least one other dedicated Siouanist (if not Lakotanist) in the Great South Land! Best regards, Clive Bloomfield. On 09/01/2008, at 3:14 PM, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > I hope members may enjoy the clarity & elegance of that Lakhota as > much as I do! > > I am conscious of being enthusiastic about it, but needless to say, > I am also interested in it in a more analytical & dispassionate > way, so I would appreciate any critical observations, or > corrections members may care to make. > > Clive: > It may be a bit much to expect your level of appreciation to be > wide spread among a group of professional linguists, whose primary > focus is on analysis and language dynamics, so you will have to > look to the exceptions. I myself do like to the reviews how > contemporary literature is expressed in the Lakota language, as I > am involved to a much lesser degree how modern literature might be > composed in similar languages. Most of the community languages > study is directed towards basic communication, with few instances > that I have come upon that encourages, even rewards oral or written > composition on contemporary subjects. It is left to the > imagination, as to how Native languages could blossom if the notion > would become widespread. So for my part, you can continue to share > your Native prose discoveries. > Jimm > PS: Are you aware of what became of Emil AFH and Ann NC, and if > they had further opportunities to apply their word craft? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Clive Bloomfield > To: SIOUAN LIST LIST > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:55 PM > Subject: Re : A sampler : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) > > Here is a sampler of what I consider to be the high literary > quality of Mr. Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK's Lakota translations (& of the > wonderful human insight & sensitivity of Ann Nolan CLARK.) > It is a passage [Pp. 19 to 21] from the above text : Thoka WaN > itkokip Ohitike kiN He /"BRAVE AGAINST THE ENEMY" (1944) by Ann > Nolan CLARK (1896-1995), which is subtitled in Lakhota : > > "Wichoichage yamni etaNhaN wichowoyake : H^talehan akhotaNhaN kiN > he, na h^talehaN kiN he na hiNhaNna kiN hehaNyaN wichowoyake waN." > > [=A story of three generations : Of the day before yesterday, of > yesterday, and of tomorrow.] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ann Nolan Clark [Wiki].webloc Type: application/applefile Size: 813 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 13 03:40:48 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:40:48 +1100 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) Message-ID: Here is that Lakhotaiyapi description of the mediaeval Spanish castle, and the rest of the brief (one-page) first chapter of the above well-known translation by Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK in 1925, together with the English original text (upon which it is obviously based) by Fr. Bernard H. WILDENHUES, S.J., [American Press, NY, 1925], together an attempt at a more literal version, accompanied by a few philological notes. What was I expecting? Nothing. What am I hoping for? Perhaps for some enterprising postgrad., or post-doc to be inspired/urged to do a research paper, or even maybe a thesis-length study of this unique writer's language, life & times. What do I want? : I just wish to share these wonderful texts with the people equipped to appreciate them, both as Lakhota language, and (as I would argue), as genuine indigenous literature, (if in a pioneering Lakhota genre). After all, there are English translations/versions such as the Elizabethan George Chapman's Iliad, or Sir Thomas North's famous version of Plutarch's Lives, or Alexander Pope's Homer, or John Dryden's Aeneid which are judged as worthy compositions & works of English literature in their own right, rather than as being merely translations. Including North's (which in any case was based on Amyot's French translation, not on the original Greek -but they were good enough to captivate Shakespeare's imagination!), these are all frequently grossly inaccurate, but they "work" marvellously as English. Nobody seems to care much about their pedantic accuracy. Even so, I humbly submit that Emil AFH's Lakhota versions also have an intrinsic value, which transcends the mere ancillary or derivative category of 'translations'! I would also suggest that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever written such Lakhota, either before or since. It is almost like having Dumas (p?re) in Lakhota! Chapter Heading : "XAVIER THIWAHE KIN" (On facing [Page 6] : illustration of a large castle) Emil AFH text (Published in trad. orthography, - in interest of clarity, I will endeavour to insert all aspirates, but am sure to miss some. Apologies in advance!) : Miniwanca khoakatan Spayola makhoche el wihinaphe kin iwaziyata Navarra makhowashpe el akichita oti wan woimnayan he. Xavier thiwahe kin he woitanyankel thawapi oonakijin na owanyeye ko thankthanka ehash 'nahasekse' wohinyansya thaninyan akanlkanl hiyeye. Wildenhues : "In the province of Navarre, in north-eastern Spain, stood a mighty fortress, proud possession of the house of Xavier, fairly bristling with lofty parapets and frowning turrets." Another version with some observations : "Away beyond the Ocean, in the north-eastern region of Navarre, in the land of Spain, stands an imposing fortress (lit. "stands famously/ powerfully-->imposingly"). This is the fastness, their proud possession, of the Xavier clan, and its great battlements also stand out here & there upon (its summits), as it were, brutally conspicuous & stern." [NOTES : Thought "oonakijin" was probably a noun (with doubled locative intial o- prefix) meaning "place of refuge, defensive vantage point/shelter", hence-->"stronghold/fastness/retreat (n.)". The precise syntactical structure of the second sentence, in particular the word order of the pronominal possessive 'thawapi' seems most interesting. That word appears to be part of a predicate after 'thiwahe kin', and to be (nominally) qualifying 'oonakijin'. The noun 'owanyeye' (B-Md. : 'porthole/loophole', would appear to correspond to the ramparts on the battlements, from behind which, defenders might discharge missiles. Might it also, conceivably, refer to the loopholes for arrow- shooting, in the catle-walls? Reduplication of Postposition 'akanl', as also use of verb 'hiyeyA', seems to imply the plurality of these ramparts/loopholes/arrow-slits. That intriguing phrase "ehas nahasekse" (as if excessively bristling) : probably /ehash nah^a sekse/ based on Stative verb root "nah^a" 'be rough-->'bristle/be bristly/stick out', seems to allude to the brutal & menacing aspect of the ramparts/battlements.] Emil AFH text : Anpetu lehantukesha hanke aphiyapi yunkhan ehank'ehan akichita k'eya mazaogle kithontonpi ca wiphe iyayuzapi na inyan oomani kin ogna iyowasyela shna s'e ounyanpi k'un hehan s'elecheca. Pyrenees h^e kin ikhinyela wachoka wan Roncevalles eya chajeyatapi ca hetan kaiyuzeya akhanlya wan el othan'inyan he, hetu cha Roland ohitika Charlemagne awanyanka wah^tekeshni un na echel Moors oyate kin kitanh^ci owe ktepi. Wildenhues : "Even today in its state of partial reconstruction it calls up pictures of those glorious days of old, when men in armoured mail made its arches ring with the clash of steel on the cobbled pavement. It stands on an eminence not far from the Pyrenees Mountains and the valley of Roncevalles, where Roland, undaunted paladin of the mighty Charlemagne, was slain by the Moors." A literal version : "Although nowadays (the castle) is in a state of semi-repair (lit. "part/half they-repair- it"), it (still) has the aspect it had back then, when old-time warriors wearing suits of armour (iron breastplates?), brandished their weapons, and, raised the echoes, so to speak, as they infested (lit. 'inhabited') its stone walkways. It was in a (mountain) valley, in the vicinity of the Pyreneees, easily visible from a vantage-point not far distant, that Roland, (the Emperor) Charlemagne's valiant & resourceful paladin stood sentinel (lit. "was capably watching"), and accordingly was, in the end, massacred by the Moors (in 778 AD)." (lit. "they bloodily killed him") [NOTES : Could reduplicated verb there : "kithonthon", be a collateral/dialect form of "kic'un" 'wear', or just of the general verb-formant : '-kiton/kitun' /kithoN.kithuN/? Here, the word would seem to have the sense of 'to put on; don'. Perhaps E. AFH has coined a new verb "mazaoglekithun" 'to don/wear a suit of armour, or cuirasse', for the occasion? Suspect the "inyan oomani" are the "stone walkways/gangways" (on/ along the battlements/castle walls), rather than just any "stone pathways". That adverb "iyowasyela" does not appear in Buech-Manh., but would appear to have a sense something like 'clanging/resounding/echoing'. The root seems to be the same as in the word 'yaiyowaza' 'echo' . Translated adverb 'kitanh^ci' (pace B.-Md.) as : 'at last/'in the end'(after an arduous struggle), rather than ''with difficulty/ hardly', in the context. But perhaps both layers of meaning are present. The senses are obviously akin.] Emil AFH Text : Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Do?a Maria de Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. Wildenhues : "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Do?a Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." A literal version : "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ Francis." (lit. "Francis saying they-named-him." [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] Emil AFH Text : Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. Wildenhues : "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, and was faithful to the last, though trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for his loyalty." A literal version : "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was that he had incurred the estimation in (the eyes of) King John of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting', so that he stood by him till the (bitter) end ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in recompense." [NOTES : A most difficult paragraph, (apart from first) imho. Took 'ohutkanke' as prob. a collateral form based on a common etymon shared by : 'huta/ohute/hutkan/ohutkan' 'root'-->'scion'. Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". The sentence's Subject seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [in the eyes of] King John (dir,obj.?), of being one who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty and the precise subordinating construction governed by that Causative : "kiye". Would argue that 'bitter' (end) is implied by context. Also wondered whether the reduplication (if that is what it is) in "waphiphisni" was intensive : "(He) was extremely unlucky/repeatedly unfortunate/ill-starred" But perhaps rather it should read : 'waphipi shni', with that '-pi' being used, as frequently, to form abstract idea : 'misfortune/ill luck'. On balance, prob. the latter. Translated phrase 'hecheca esha' as 'even though that was so/the case'-->'nonetheless/nevertheless/notwithstanding'. Intensive suffix on 'yuha' appears to emphasize fact that trouble & bad luck was all Don Juan ever received in return for his pains.] Emil AFH text : Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin oiglushicin na heon hankeya makha woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin etkiya Christ Jesus. Wildenhues : "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme Commander, Christ Jesus." Another version : "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, (incurred disgrace/ obloquy ??), and for that reason he finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." [NOTE : 'aithanchanyan' seems to mean (city which was) 'overlord over' the others. Could we have another example here also, in that locative 'a-' prefix, of that (here, implied) comparative 'more than' idea, as mentioned in a previous post? Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. The fascinating word "wophethethu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was "isamya" [=more] "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less filthy lucre'.] (Biblical Quotation at bottom of page) : "Wathi taku he? Wakhanthanka! Matuwe he?" [1 Par.17, 16.] "What is my home? God! Who am I?" The biblical quotation from 1 Chronicles 17, 16., does not appear in my 1928 edition of Wildenhues's translation, whereas these citations from Scripture are given on each page of the 1922 German original. (Incidentally, 'Par.' is an abbreviation of 'Paraleipomenon', first word of the Greek title of 'Chronicles', in the Septuagint.) As I see it, given the fact that Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK was doing something quite bold & unprecedented here : In translating a text of such a quintessentialy European provenance into Lakota, he has performed his task with marvellous talent & brilliant originality. I believe also that the exercise of a little imagination allows one easily to see the attraction which the turbulent history of such "Warrior-Saints" as those militant Basque firebrands, St.Francis Xavier, and St. Ignatius Loyola, might have exercised for a Lakota! Both men of action, both scions of long line of proud, rebellious fighting-men of legendary courage! What better subject for a Lakota author? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. Having stated my (or, more importantly, Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK'S) case in the halls of learning, a thing I had long resolved to do, I will henceforth call a halt to my 'campaign', in this place, on behalf of the distinguished Lakhota author Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 14 01:38:32 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:38:32 +1100 Subject: A little new light on a familiar word ?? ["WT" (p.7)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13/01/2008, at 2:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > Emil AFH Text : > > Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita > sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Do?a Maria de > Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el > miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. > > Wildenhues : > > "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was > born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Do?a > Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his > baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." > > A literal version : > > "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to > prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This > (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and > Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, > was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ > Francis." (lit. "Francis saying > they-named-him." > > [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] I take this back! Now, as we all know, the word akhe' means "again; a second time" [B-Md., s.v.] "again; repeated; a second time" [Riggs, DakEngD, s.v.]. In any case, one might perhaps have expected akhe'shnashna (or s'a maybe) to correspond my translation "again & again" there. Clearly, in this context, Xavier has only just entered this Vale of Tears, so how COULD akhe' there mean "again/a second time"? Doesn't akhe' (especially followed immediately by thoka'ta, & in a prospective KTA clause) mean there, something more like : "in time yet to come/in subsequent years"? Accordingly, I would retranslate thus : "Into this family, on Apr.7, 1506, was born one who was destined/ bound to become, in time/years to come, to be a mighty soldier." Correct? Further, one also notes with interest that perhaps more than a hint of this sense appears to occur in another familiar adverb/Stative Verb "eha'ke" (which, as we know, normally means "last" [B&D,p.139]; also "be last" [Buech.LakotaT&T., 215]), when used with hunh /huNh^/ 'some' in such sentences as Buech. Gr.'s examples on Page 338, #198, 3) : Ma'zaska eha'ke hunh^ wachi'n. [='I want a little more money."] Wicha'sha eha'ke hunh^ wanji'la chin. [="He wants one man more."] Q.1 : IF eha'ke adds the nuance : 'more, but for the last time, no more!' (which akhe' may not have), wouldn't Fr. B. have translated (or annotated) accordingly, or just used akhe'? Q.2 : Would substitution of akhe' (for eha'ke) in either sentence substantially alter the translation, or not? Is this an example of Fr. B.'s bad Lakhota idiom? Q.3 : Does the loss of aspiration there in "eha'Ke" conclusively rule out any possible cognate status with "akhe"? Or is this just a false trail? Finally, I note that, interestingly enough, S.R. Riggs has two separate entries for eha'ke in his Dakota Dict. (Buechel does supply both meanings, but collapses them into one entry). B&D (p. 139) have "last". : 1) EHA'KE : (advb.) "Yet, yet to come." Example : eha'ke wanji'dan : "one yet" 2) EHA'KE : (n.) "the last one". There are also the fascinating words : EHA'KEDAN/EHA'KEDANKASE/EHA'KEDANKECHINHAN : (advb.) "yet a little while". > > > > > Emil AFH Text : > > Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi > kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon > Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca > wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya > hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. > > Wildenhues : > > "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured > knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, > and was faithful to the last, though > trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for > his loyalty." > > A literal version : > > "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') > who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort > of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been > warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was > that he had incurred the estimation (with/in the eyes of) King John > of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one > whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting'/ > honour, and so he actually stood by him till the (bitter/very) end > ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even > though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in > recompense." OR, perhaps : "(D.J., in the event, stood by King Juan)...even though that was the case (he'checa esha'), all the reward (wishi'...k'eyash) he ever reaped from that , was ill-luck and trouble." > > [NOTES : Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of > the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". > [Perhaps : "He [D.J.] passionately believed in (his own) honour." > The sentence's SUBJECT seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are > told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [with/in the eyes of] > the King called John of Navarre (DIRECT OBJECT?)], of being one > who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty. I WAS > ALSO EXERCISED BY the precise subordinating construction governed > by that Causative : "khiye". Apologies for the garbling there. > > > > Emil AFH text : > > Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, > yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius > eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin OIGLUSHICIN na heon hankeya makha > woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi > wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin > etkiya Christ Jesus. > > Wildenhues : > > "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of > which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that > injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to > seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme > Commander, Christ Jesus." > > Another version : > > "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during > its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, GOT HIMSELF INTO A > TERRIBLE PLIGHT, and for that reason he > finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land > (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary > occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." > > [NOTES : Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains > unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. > Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), > was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg > shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. > Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own > reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify > not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. > > To support this interpretation, Buech.-Md. also has : iglu'shicA : > "to make oneself bad/get ones's self into difficulty". > I'm really not sure exactly what that locative o- prefix adds > there! Could it be just emphasize that the disastrous incident > happened to I. L. 'IN that place/city' ? > The fascinating word "wophethETHu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. > based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as > a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" (or adverb.) > referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : > "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was > "isamya" [=more] > "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less > filthy lucre'.] Seems an unusual reduplication? Checked the spelling. Would't one have expected : wophethunTHUNshni? Misprint/typo? > > Regards, > > Clive Bloomfield. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 14 02:25:53 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:25:53 +1100 Subject: A little new light on a familiar word ?? Maybe not. In-Reply-To: <91FDA93E-2128-404B-B69D-8BA9EFAF1DE5@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 14/01/2008, at 12:38 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > On 13/01/2008, at 2:40 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > >> >> Emil AFH Text : >> >> Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita >> sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Do?a Maria de >> Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el >> miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. >> >> Wildenhues : >> >> "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was >> born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and >> Do?a Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his >> baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." >> >> A literal version : >> >> "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to >> prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This >> (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and >> Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, >> was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/ >> Francis." (lit. "Francis saying >> they-named-him." >> >> [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] > > I take this back! Now, as we all know, the word akhe' means "again; > a second time" [B-Md., s.v.] "again; repeated; a second > time" [Riggs, DakEngD, s.v.]. > In any case, one might perhaps have expected akhe'shnashna (or s'a > maybe) to correspond my translation "again & again" there. > Clearly, in this context, Xavier has only just entered this Vale of > Tears, so how COULD akhe' there mean "again/a second time"? > Doesn't akhe' (especially followed immediately by thoka'ta, & in a > prospective KTA clause) mean there, something more like : "in time > yet to come/in subsequent years"? > > Accordingly, I would retranslate thus : > > "Into this family, on Apr.7, 1506, was born one who was destined/ > bound to become, in time/years to come, to be a mighty soldier." > > Correct? > > > The penny has just dropped! akhe' there goes with waN 'one' - the > point being that this babe was the latest 'edition' in a long line > of martial heroes (but with a certain difference, as we find out > later.) The words proximity to thoka'ta & the 'yet to be/come' sense of eha'ke' put me off the scent, I guess. Now, I translate : "Into this family....was born YET ANOTHER who was destined to become, in future time, a mighty soldier ('captain' sounds nice)" Regards, Clive Bloomfield > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Jan 16 00:13:30 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:13:30 +1100 Subject: Some Vocab : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07/01/2008, at 4:55 PM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > Waniyetu iwoblu thanka, na thate thanka, nainsh oyate > thawicoh^'anpi kin , hena ecela un hecheca shni. Tkha taku oyas'in > un hecheca. > > Mniwanca khowakatan okichize thanka k'un hehan lila wichoshkinciye, > pte waniyanpi wichayuhapi kin thalo yutapi kta cha un > wiyophewicakiya iyowinwichakhiyapi na iyowichapashtakapi. > > Tanyan mazaska iyuwinpi, tkha mazaska kin wiyopheya glusotapi na > ptegleshka optaye thanka ota k'un conala oglaptapi. > > > [=It had not been only the blizzard, the tornadoes, the customs of > the people. It had been everything. > > In the boom days during the world war they had been encouraged to > sell their cattle for beef. > > It had brought in money, but the money had been spent and the herds > depleted.] > > > > > > Ho he iyohakap taku oyas'in khul iyaye k'un he e, na omakha puze > k'un he e, na thate s'a k'un hena hiyawichagle kin hechun. > > Ptegleshka optaye tonakel owichaglaptapi k'un hena hehanl t'api. > > Wana lila waniyetu ota thate s'a kin he oblaye makhoche thowashte > tka k'un ohiniyan thate, chankhe makhoche kin akanl ooshkinciye > washte tkha k'un he ataya thate kin ikaphan ih^peye. > > [=Then had come the Depression and the drought and the winds. > > What had remained of the herds had died. > > For years now the winds had blown over the plains, beating to dust > the life of the plains.] Both above quotations from Lakhota tr. by Emil AFRAID-OF -HAWK of "Brave Against the Enemy", Ann NOLAN CLARK (Haskell Institute Printing Dept., Lawrence, Kansas, Jan 1944) - Page 21. > > More than a couple of handy 'new' (well, new-ish, given it was > 1944) vocabulary items there, wouldn't you say folks? 1) : Mniwa'nca khoa'kataN Oki'chize Tha'Nka K'uN =The Great War/The World War (lit. 'the great war across/beyond the ocean"). 2) : Ta'ku oya's'iN Khul Iya'ye K'uN = The Great Depression/the Slump/World Recession (lit. "the (time in the past when/the fact that) everything went down/took a nose-dive"). 3) : li'la wicho'shkinciye = the boom days (in this case, of course, the Lakhota cattle boom during WWI, and during the early 20s.) 4) : obla'ye makho'che tho'washte tkha k'uN (here, perhaps)= the former/erstwhile bountifulness (lit. 'its goodness') of the plains country/prairies. 5) : makho'che kin aka'Nl oo'shkinciye washte' tkha k'uN (perhaps, in context) = the former days of the 'goodlife'/prosperity on the land/the man on the land's salad days, his heyday. Fascinatingly, E AOH uses "wichasha ikceka" (p.51) for "Frenchman" (France or Canada), and "UNciyapi Thamakhoche ekta washicu ikceka" (p.49) for "French-Canadian". Could this be another clue that he really did belong to a much earlier generation, even in the 40s? Regards, Clive. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Wed Jan 16 00:51:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:51:04 +1100 Subject: Some Vocab : "Thoka WaN Itkokip Ohitike KiN He"(Jan 1944) In-Reply-To: <0FE6EADD-0875-41AC-B349-767CACF36418@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: On 16/01/2008, at 11:13 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > > > 5) : makho'che kin aka'Nl oo'shkinciye washte' tkha k'uN (perhaps, > in context) = the former days of the 'goodlife'/prosperity on the > land/the man on the land's salad days, his heyday. oo'shkiNciye washte' there looks like it belongs to the familiar syntactical pattern of such familiar expressions as : oo'yakshica = it is hard to tell; oa'ye washte' =it is easy to take there; (B&D, pp. 44, 45, respectively) [See also B&D, p.41, #41, 3.; Buech. Gr. p.299, #184. 3) a)- last 3 exx.] Hence, (in conjunction with that nominalizing Past/Already-mentioned- Topic Marker k'uN, and the irrealis particle tkha denoting 'used to be so, not any more' (B&D, p.113), I figure the expression must have meant something like : "those former days when the 'doing/living was easy'-->'the good life'; the good old days when prosperity came easy. Toksha akhe, mitakuyepi, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Jan 16 21:41:55 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:41:55 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting Message-ID: Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From goodtracks at peoplepc.com Thu Jan 17 00:16:50 2008 From: goodtracks at peoplepc.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:16:50 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer Siouan Language Conference In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: The dates in May are best for me. June is always filled with scheduled activities, which compete when determining to come to the conference. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 17 03:13:32 2008 From: cqcqcq1 at earthlink.net (Carolyn Quintero) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:13:32 -0800 Subject: Dates for summer meeting In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: I could not attend the May dates, since daughter is having a baby then. June would be ok. Carolyn Carolyn Quintero Inter Lingua, Inc. 1711 East 15th St. Tulsa OK 74104 2105 East Ocean Blvd #2 Long Beach CA 90803 tel 918 852 9860 cquintero at interlinguainc.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Jill Greer Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:42 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 9:01 AM From kdshea at aol.com Thu Jan 17 16:11:18 2008 From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:11:18 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting Message-ID: My niece is getting married in Wyoming May 31, but I think I could attend the meeting if it were on May 26-27. The other dates are probably better for me. Kathy Shea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Dates for summer meeting Hi, All, Happy New Year! I am finally on the list, and so Bob Rankin is no longer forced to be the mediator, as it were. I would like to finalize dates for the Siouan meeting to be held at Missouri Southern State University in Joplin, and so I am asking for people to let me know if they can make any or all of the following days: 1. May 24-25 (Saturday/Sunday) 2. May 26-27 (Monday/Tuesday) 3. June 20-21 (Friday/Saturday) After the replies received last fall, it appears there may be no way to accommodate everyone, but I will put it out there one more time in case circumstances have changed. I look forward to hearing from you. If you have no strong preference, feel free to abstain :) Thanks!!! Jill Jill D. Greer Social Science Department Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 greer-j at mssu.edu From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jan 17 17:07:03 2008 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:07:03 -0600 Subject: Dates for summer meeting In-Reply-To: <478E2619.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Aloha All, I will be teaching a summer course through early June, so the late June dates are open for me. Uthixide Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu Anthropology-Geography Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies) University of Nebraska-Lincoln 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ONska abthiN! Thi shti? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 20 14:06:33 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:06:33 +0000 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Clive, I'm glad that you have found the original (if it can be so called) of this. I bought a copy of the Wthakpeya Thanka a long time ago and read it with enthusiasm, but found some passagess very difficult to work out, particularly the early bits about his early life in the mountains. I must read through it again with your notes to hand. Yours Bruce Clive Bloomfield wrote: Here is that Lakhotaiyapi description of the mediaeval Spanish castle, and the rest of the brief (one-page) first chapter of the above well-known translation by Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK in 1925, together with the English original text (upon which it is obviously based) by Fr. Bernard H. WILDENHUES, S.J., [American Press, NY, 1925], together an attempt at a more literal version, accompanied by a few philological notes. What was I expecting? Nothing. What am I hoping for? Perhaps for some enterprising postgrad., or post-doc to be inspired/urged to do a research paper, or even maybe a thesis-length study of this unique writer's language, life & times. What do I want? : I just wish to share these wonderful texts with the people equipped to appreciate them, both as Lakhota language, and (as I would argue), as genuine indigenous literature, (if in a pioneering Lakhota genre). After all, there are English translations/versions such as the Elizabethan George Chapman's Iliad, or Sir Thomas North's famous version of Plutarch's Lives, or Alexander Pope's Homer, or John Dryden's Aeneid which are judged as worthy compositions & works of English literature in their own right, rather than as being merely translations. Including North's (which in any case was based on Amyot's French translation, not on the original Greek -but they were good enough to captivate Shakespeare's imagination!), these are all frequently grossly inaccurate, but they "work" marvellously as English. Nobody seems to care much about their pedantic accuracy. Even so, I humbly submit that Emil AFH's Lakhota versions also have an intrinsic value, which transcends the mere ancillary or derivative category of 'translations'! I would also suggest that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever written such Lakhota, either before or since. It is almost like having Dumas (p?re) in Lakhota! Chapter Heading : "XAVIER THIWAHE KIN" (On facing [Page 6] : illustration of a large castle) Emil AFH text (Published in trad. orthography, - in interest of clarity, I will endeavour to insert all aspirates, but am sure to miss some. Apologies in advance!) : Miniwanca khoakatan Spayola makhoche el wihinaphe kin iwaziyata Navarra makhowashpe el akichita oti wan woimnayan he. Xavier thiwahe kin he woitanyankel thawapi oonakijin na owanyeye ko thankthanka ehash 'nahasekse' wohinyansya thaninyan akanlkanl hiyeye. Wildenhues : "In the province of Navarre, in north-eastern Spain, stood a mighty fortress, proud possession of the house of Xavier, fairly bristling with lofty parapets and frowning turrets." Another version with some observations : "Away beyond the Ocean, in the north-eastern region of Navarre, in the land of Spain, stands an imposing fortress (lit. "stands famously/powerfully-->imposingly"). This is the fastness, their proud possession, of the Xavier clan, and its great battlements also stand out here & there upon (its summits), as it were, brutally conspicuous & stern." [NOTES : Thought "oonakijin" was probably a noun (with doubled locative intial o- prefix) meaning "place of refuge, defensive vantage point/shelter", hence-->"stronghold/fastness/retreat (n.)". The precise syntactical structure of the second sentence, in particular the word order of the pronominal possessive 'thawapi' seems most interesting. That word appears to be part of a predicate after 'thiwahe kin', and to be (nominally) qualifying 'oonakijin'. The noun 'owanyeye' (B-Md. : 'porthole/loophole', would appear to correspond to the ramparts on the battlements, from behind which, defenders might discharge missiles. Might it also, conceivably, refer to the loopholes for arrow-shooting, in the catle-walls? Reduplication of Postposition 'akanl', as also use of verb 'hiyeyA', seems to imply the plurality of these ramparts/loopholes/arrow-slits. That intriguing phrase "ehas nahasekse" (as if excessively bristling) : probably /ehash nah^a sekse/ based on Stative verb root "nah^a" 'be rough-->'bristle/be bristly/stick out', seems to allude to the brutal & menacing aspect of the ramparts/battlements.] Emil AFH text : Anpetu lehantukesha hanke aphiyapi yunkhan ehank'ehan akichita k'eya mazaogle kithontonpi ca wiphe iyayuzapi na inyan oomani kin ogna iyowasyela shna s'e ounyanpi k'un hehan s'elecheca. Pyrenees h^e kin ikhinyela wachoka wan Roncevalles eya chajeyatapi ca hetan kaiyuzeya akhanlya wan el othan'inyan he, hetu cha Roland ohitika Charlemagne awanyanka wah^tekeshni un na echel Moors oyate kin kitanh^ci owe ktepi. Wildenhues : "Even today in its state of partial reconstruction it calls up pictures of those glorious days of old, when men in armoured mail made its arches ring with the clash of steel on the cobbled pavement. It stands on an eminence not far from the Pyrenees Mountains and the valley of Roncevalles, where Roland, undaunted paladin of the mighty Charlemagne, was slain by the Moors." A literal version : "Although nowadays (the castle) is in a state of semi-repair (lit. "part/half they-repair- it"), it (still) has the aspect it had back then, when old-time warriors wearing suits of armour (iron breastplates?), brandished their weapons, and, raised the echoes, so to speak, as they infested (lit. 'inhabited') its stone walkways. It was in a (mountain) valley, in the vicinity of the Pyreneees, easily visible from a vantage-point not far distant, that Roland, (the Emperor) Charlemagne's valiant & resourceful paladin stood sentinel (lit. "was capably watching"), and accordingly was, in the end, massacred by the Moors (in 778 AD)." (lit. "they bloodily killed him") [NOTES : Could reduplicated verb there : "kithonthon", be a collateral/dialect form of "kic'un" 'wear', or just of the general verb-formant : '-kiton/kitun' /kithoN.kithuN/? Here, the word would seem to have the sense of 'to put on; don'. Perhaps E. AFH has coined a new verb "mazaoglekithun" 'to don/wear a suit of armour, or cuirasse', for the occasion? Suspect the "inyan oomani" are the "stone walkways/gangways" (on/along the battlements/castle walls), rather than just any "stone pathways". That adverb "iyowasyela" does not appear in Buech-Manh., but would appear to have a sense something like 'clanging/resounding/echoing'. The root seems to be the same as in the word 'yaiyowaza' 'echo' . Translated adverb 'kitanh^ci' (pace B.-Md.) as : 'at last/'in the end'(after an arduous struggle), rather than ''with difficulty/hardly', in the context. But perhaps both layers of meaning are present. The senses are obviously akin.] Emil AFH Text : Thiwahe kin lel April 7th, 1506, ehanl akhe thokata akichita sh'akin kta wan thonpi. He Don Juan de Jassu na Do?a Maria de Azpilcueta chincapi ca wichicisakpe hakakta thaowachekiyepi el miniakashtanpi na Francis eya chasthonpi. Wildenhues : "Here on April 7th, 1506, another great knight of the future was born. He was the sixth and last child of Don Juan de Jassu and Do?a Maria de Azpilcueta, and at his baptism in the parish church received the name of Francis." A literal version : "Into this family, on April 7th, 1506, was born one who was to prove again & again, in future years, a mighty soldier. This (babe), the son of Don Juan de Jassu and Donna Maria de Azpilcueta, as their sixth-born youngest offspring, was baptized in their (family) chapel, and christened "Francisco/Francis." (lit. "Francis saying they-named-him." [NOTES : Seems to be nothing especially noteworthy here.] Emil AFH Text : Francis atkuku Don Juan, tohantan kin akichita oyuonihanyeh^ci unpi kin hecha etanhan ohutkanke, na wokinihanca hecha, heon Wichashayatapi John eciyapi Navarra etanhan kin owotanla kilah^ca wiyukcan khiye, chankhe oehake iyagleya wichakeya nakicijin, eya hecheca esha waphipishni na woshkishke echela wishi yuhah^ce k'eyash. Wildenhues : "Don Juan, his father, noble scion of a long line of honoured knights, was the trusted counsellor of his king, John of Navarre, and was faithful to the last, though trouble & misfortune were the only recompense he ever received for his loyalty." A literal version : "Don Juan, the father of Francis, being the type of man ('hecha') who derived his roots from (lit. "had roots in/rooted in") the sort of people who had, from time out of mind ('tohantan'), been warriors of great renown, was a highly respected man : hence it was that he had incurred the estimation in (the eyes of) King John of Navarre (lit. "the one called K.J. from Navarre"), of being one whose highest value was integrity/uprightness/'straightshooting', so that he stood by him till the (bitter) end ('oehake'), in spite of the fact that he was ill-starred, and even though he only ever received trouble/messy complications in recompense." [NOTES : A most difficult paragraph, (apart from first) imho. Took 'ohutkanke' as prob. a collateral form based on a common etymon shared by : 'huta/ohute/hutkan/ohutkan' 'root'-->'scion'. Was particularly perplexed by the exact meaning here, of the verb "kila" with that attached intensifier-->"kilah^ca". The sentence's Subject seemed to me to be "Don Juan", who, we are told, incurred an opinion ('wiyukcankhiye'), [in the eyes of] King John (dir,obj.?), of being one who passionately believed ['kilah^ca'] in honour/honesty and the precise subordinating construction governed by that Causative : "kiye". Would argue that 'bitter' (end) is implied by context. Also wondered whether the reduplication (if that is what it is) in "waphiphisni" was intensive : "(He) was extremely unlucky/repeatedly unfortunate/ill-starred" But perhaps rather it should read : 'waphipi shni', with that '-pi' being used, as frequently, to form abstract idea : 'misfortune/ill luck'. On balance, prob. the latter. Translated phrase 'hecheca esha' as 'even though that was so/the case'-->'nonetheless/nevertheless/notwithstanding'. Intensive suffix on 'yuha' appears to emphasize fact that trouble & bad luck was all Don Juan ever received in return for his pains.] Emil AFH text : Navarra el othonwahe wan aithanchanyan yanke kin he Pampeluna e, yunkhan he echa nakikshinpi na el akichita sh'aka wan, Ignatius eciyapi Loyola etanhan kin oiglushicin na heon hankeya makha woyuonihan el oshkinchiyeh^ce k'un hena ayushtan, na isamya wowashi wophethethushni oic'ile kta cha, Ithanchan Thawa Iyotan Thanka kin etkiya Christ Jesus. Wildenhues : "The capital of Navarre is the city of Pampeluna, in the defense of which, another great knight, Ignatius of Loyola, received that injury which led hin to abandon the career of worldly honour and to seek a more honorable service in the livery of His Supreme Commander, Christ Jesus." Another version : "The capital/leading city of Navarre is Pamplona, and there, during its defence a mighty warrior, Ignatius Loyola, (incurred disgrace/obloquy ??), and for that reason he finally quit his feverish endeavours/activities in honour of land (conquests?), in order to seek out for himself a less mercenary occupation, for the sake of his Supreme Lord, Christ Jesus." [NOTE : 'aithanchanyan' seems to mean (city which was) 'overlord over' the others. Could we have another example here also, in that locative 'a-' prefix, of that (here, implied) comparative 'more than' idea, as mentioned in a previous post? Exact sense of Reflexive Verb "oiglushicA" remains unclear to me - ones learns from historical research that St. Ignatius Loyola, a founder of the Jesuits, (as was St. Fr. Xavier), was originally a rapacious military captain who had his leg shattered by a cannonball, in the siege of Pamplona. Here, (pace Frs. B.&M.'s definition of : 'spoil one's own reputation;'disgrace oneself'), the word would appear to signify not much more than 'got himself hurt'/'got himself into bad trouble'. The fascinating word "wophethethu(n)shni", I thought to be prob. based on the Root "ophethun" [="buy"], so I interpreted the word as a Reduplicated & negated Stative Verb/"adjective" referring to the "wowasi" with a sense something akin to : "(He sought out for himself) "wowasi" [=work, occupation] that was "isamya" [=more] "non-commercial-->unsordid"--> 'less mercenary/involving less filthy lucre'.] (Biblical Quotation at bottom of page) : "Wathi taku he? Wakhanthanka! Matuwe he?" [1 Par.17, 16.] "What is my home? God! Who am I?" The biblical quotation from 1 Chronicles 17, 16., does not appear in my 1928 edition of Wildenhues's translation, whereas these citations from Scripture are given on each page of the 1922 German original. (Incidentally, 'Par.' is an abbreviation of 'Paraleipomenon', first word of the Greek title of 'Chronicles', in the Septuagint.) As I see it, given the fact that Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK was doing something quite bold & unprecedented here : In translating a text of such a quintessentialy European provenance into Lakota, he has performed his task with marvellous talent & brilliant originality. I believe also that the exercise of a little imagination allows one easily to see the attraction which the turbulent history of such "Warrior-Saints" as those militant Basque firebrands, St.Francis Xavier, and St. Ignatius Loyola, might have exercised for a Lakota! Both men of action, both scions of long line of proud, rebellious fighting-men of legendary courage! What better subject for a Lakota author? Regards, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. Having stated my (or, more importantly, Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK'S) case in the halls of learning, a thing I had long resolved to do, I will henceforth call a halt to my 'campaign', in this place, on behalf of the distinguished Lakhota author Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK! --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Sun Jan 20 20:24:55 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what you think. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 20 21:14:40 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:14:40 -0600 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: I think they did a nice, sensitive job with the story. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Sun 1/20/2008 2:24 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what you think. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From kdshea at aol.com Sun Jan 20 21:59:53 2008 From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:59:53 -0600 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita Message-ID: It is beautifully done, David, and very informative. I enjoyed all the links to the video segments, songs, and language lesson. Thanks for sending this. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and > especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what > you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 20 21:59:27 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:59:27 +1100 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you David. Wonderful presentation, but unutterably melancholy tidings. Yet it is also good to remember that, due to the sterling efforts of your good self & of those you have mentored, the Wichita language of Doris Lamar & her ancestors will never be wholly extinct. Clive. On 21/01/2008, at 7:24 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita > and especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me > know what you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 20 22:27:07 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:27:07 +1100 Subject: "Watakpeya Tanka" (page 7) In-Reply-To: <617422.71111.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, To have drawn a response from a scholar of your stature, I regard as a signal honour. Thank you so much for this, and for all you have done for the furtherance of Lakotanist knowledge. I simply could not do without your contributions, and am especially grateful for your English-Lakota dictionary. Lila chiyuonihaN, Clive Bloomfield. P.S. The illustrated 1922 German-language 55-page abridgement of the multivolume Schurhammer biography, of which Wildenhues apparently produced an English version, was entitled : "Franziskus Xavierus : Ein Leben in Bildern" von G. Schurhammer S.J. und Historienmaler R.E.Kepler. Kunstausgabe mit Kommentar. Xavierus=Verlag/Aachen, und Verlag des Missionhauses Immensee (Schweiz). The 1925 Afraid-Of-Hawk Lakota tr. of Wildenhues, containing abt. 60 pages, used Kepler's illustrations. On 21/01/2008, at 1:06 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Dear Clive, > I'm glad that you have found the original (if it can be so called) > of this. I bought a copy of the Wthakpeya Thanka a long time ago > and read it with enthusiasm, but found some passagess very > difficult to work out, particularly the early bits about his early > life in the mountains. I must read through it again with your > notes to hand. > Yours > Bruce > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Sun Jan 20 23:29:23 2008 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:29:23 -0800 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David: They did a beautiful job with that article. And it's very poignant. So what *is* the difference between /wiyasaks/ and /wi:ks/? :-) Is the latter a fast speech variant of the former? Dave Costa > From: ROOD DAVID S > Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 (MST) > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita > > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ > > The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and > especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what > you think. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Jan 21 01:03:38 2008 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave. I always hold my breath when dealing with journalists, but this one was great. I don't know what the difference between those words is; even in the 60s, no one seemed to think there was one. I think they both contain a root something like wi:r for 'male' (borrowed by Latin, of course ;-)), e.g. 'man' is wi:c, from wi:r-s, but that's as far as I can get. I often tried to make wi:ks a fast speech variant of wiyasaks, but the medial "s" shouldn't disappear in such a form. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, David Costa wrote: > David: > > They did a beautiful job with that article. And it's very poignant. > > So what *is* the difference between /wiyasaks/ and /wi:ks/? :-) Is the > latter a fast speech variant of the former? > > Dave Costa > > > >> From: ROOD DAVID S >> Reply-To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:55 -0700 (MST) >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Newspaper story about Doris Lamar and Wichita >> >> >> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2008/wichita/ >> >> The above gets you to a Dallas Morning News article about Wichita and >> especially about Doris. I think it's beautifully done. Let me know what >> you think. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu > From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 21 23:26:21 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:26:21 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) Message-ID: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-- >'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/ syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/ take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "ok?chu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phut?okichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Jan 22 02:17:47 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:17:47 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: <9BACA8B9-57D6-4801-BE9C-0E7B14AE6800@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: We'll need to ask a couple of native speakers about the mysterious okicu part. It is much more likely that the meaning intended is something like "picks up with the upper lip" (of the end of the trunk). That is by far the most striking thing with an elephant. In Apache, elephant is "the one that ropes with his nose". It's nice to keep the Buechel-Manhart (1970) edition around... The diacritics are clearer there. > Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Permettez-moi de corriger ceci. "Il ne s'agit que d'un crime passionnel..." Willem (a compatriot of Georges Simenon and of Hercule Poirot) From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Jan 22 05:14:24 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:14:24 +1100 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: <20080121201747.esqtllc3saecsock@eaglemail.unt.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Willem. Must get that 1970 edition. Those dots & commas are driving me spare! Mais bien s?r, mon cher Willem, c'est bien exact ?a! Je vous en remercie infiniment, de cette correction : c'?tait bien une erreur grossi?re. ?a m'apprendra ? me m?ler de la belle langue belge (et fran?aise), d'une mani?re tellement cavali?re, une langue si pleine d'esprit et de pr?cision, celle de Maeterlinck et Verhaeren, n'est- ce pas! ;) Enfin, je ne peux pas m'en emp?cher, ? ce qu'il para?t. Mais apr?s tout, c'est comme ?a, qu'on apprend ? les parler mieux, les langues - c'est ? dire : en perp?trant, de temps en temps, des "massacres" grammaticales, non? :-) En fait, je me sers de 'La M?thode Bloomfield' pour l'Apprentisage des Langues, ? savoir : "Le Chemin du Soloecisme Fr?quente". Et voil?! Ha ha. Thanks too for the fascinating snippet of Apache there. I guess the Navajo item : b?ch??h yee 'adilohii (Y&M, 1987, p.876) would convey something similar, eh? (My computer can't handle the nazalized i- acute, I fear) Not that I'm any expert on Din? Bizaad, of course - I've been trying, with meagre success, to learn to read it for about 20 years! Those verb-complexes seem fiendish - all that information packed into a verb-form, and all those seeming irregularities! But totally enchanting, of course! No doubt structures of Western Apache would be comparable, eh? By comparison, the vagaries of the various Lakhota 'ki-/kici/kichi-/ khi-/k- forms seem much easier to cope with. BTW, I dare say you're quite correct about that greater likelihood, particularly in view of the info. from other Amerind languages. I actually wanted the etymology to involve that meaning you mention below, but was lured into a sort of 'to-aspirate-or-not-to-aspirate id?e fixe', for a moment there! best regards, Amiti?s, Clive. P.S. "Mais enfin, c'?tait vraiement ?l?mentaire, M. Poirot, n'est- ce pas!" On 22/01/2008, at 1:17 PM, willemdereuse at unt.edu wrote: > We'll need to ask a couple of native speakers about the mysterious > okicu part. It is much more likely that the meaning intended is > something like "picks up with the upper lip" (of the end of the > trunk). That is by far the most striking thing with an elephant. > In Apache, elephant is "the one that ropes with his nose". It's > nice to keep the Buechel-Manhart (1970) edition around... The > diacritics are clearer there. > >> Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) > > Permettez-moi de corriger ceci. "Il ne s'agit que d'un crime > passionnel..." > > Willem (a compatriot of Georges Simenon and of Hercule Poirot) > > From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 10:51:17 2008 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:51:17 -0800 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <9BACA8B9-57D6-4801-BE9C-0E7B14AE6800@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not even trying to present you with a clear picture of the morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? Examples for kicu: ogle ki kicu shirt DEF give back 'he returned the shirt to her' he kicu we! that give back imperative 'give it back to him!' In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. The expected form ikicu does not exist. Regina Clive Bloomfield wrote: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-->'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "ok?chu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phut?okichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 22 11:25:35 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:25:35 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This verb is an unusual one. I believe that Boas and Deloria have it as kichu 'give back' and I have heard it as such on tapes. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not even trying to present you with a clear picture of the morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? Examples for kicu: ogle ki kicu shirt DEF give back 'he returned the shirt to her' he kicu we! that give back imperative 'give it back to him!' In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. The expected form ikicu does not exist. Regina Clive Bloomfield wrote: I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from kichu 'restore/give back' (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. 'chair' : aspirated, no?). B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B-Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip (trunk)'-->'elephant'. But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's another speculative idea to account for the etymology of 'phute'okichu' : There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of water inside". The Dative/Possessive form might be "ok?chu" : "it has [drops of] water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". Could the etymology of phut?okichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus elephant giving itself a "shower"? I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) Kind regards, Clive. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at centrum.cz Tue Jan 22 11:50:22 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:50:22 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willemdereuse at unt.edu Tue Jan 22 15:38:08 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:38:08 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Clive Bloomfield : (...) Mais bien s?r, mon cher Willem, c'est bien exact ?a! Je vous en > remercie infiniment, de cette correction : c'?tait bien une erreur > grossi?re. ?a m'apprendra ? me m?ler de la belle langue belge (et > fran?aise), d'une mani?re tellement cavali?re, une langue si pleine > d'esprit et de pr?cision, celle de Maeterlinck et Verhaeren, n'est- > ce pas! ;) Enfin, je ne peux pas m'en emp?cher, ? ce qu'il para?t. > Mais apr?s tout, c'est comme ?a qu'on apprend ? les parler mieux, > les langues - c'est ? dire : en perp?trant, de temps en temps, des > "massacres" grammaticaux, non? :-) En fait, je me sers de 'La > M?thode Bloomfield' pour l'Apprentissage des Langues, ? savoir : "Le > Chemin du Soloecisme Fr?quent". Et voil?! Ha ha. (..) Hi Clive: Thanks for getting all of us Siouanists to practice our French a bit! To reconnect this a little bit to small languages, which we are all dealing with. You mention the Flemish authors Maeterlinck and Verhaeren. This is great literature, widely read in the French-speaking world. People do not know that there is a Dutch (or Flemish) literature in Belgium, quite as good as the French authors. The eternal probelem with samll languages, few read the lkietarure! But we digress. On to Lakota kicu, kichu etc... From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 17:39:49 2008 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:39:49 -0800 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <001801c85cec$f884f740$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: OK Bruce, OK Jan, I consider myself outvoted on the aspiration of kic(h)u. Fact is, with c, I tend to have trouble hearing the difference between aspiration and lack of it. With p/t/k this is a lot easier. I'm sure there is a phonological explanation for this -- maybe the alveolar fricative that technically precedes the aspiration in the affricate c has something to do with it. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 22 18:16:32 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:16:32 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <663953.30906.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're not alone Regina. I have actually been told by a Lakota speaker of possibly a bit older than my generation that she could not tell the difference. I think the point is that both are affricates and are similar. However when I asked her to say icu 'take' and echun 'do', they were clearly different to me. It isn't exactly the same, but I remember that when I taught articulatory phonetics I used to ask my students to write down in phonetic script what I would say. Then I would pronounce /tliin tlodhs/ and they would all transcribe it as 'clean clothes', the point being that they wrote down what they thought I meant, tl- being an unrecognised sequence in English. In fact I think you could pronounce all your cl- s as tl-s and no one would bat an eye-lid. It isn't quite the same thing, but it illustrates that speakers impressions of what goes on in their own language are not always accurate. Bruce REGINA PUSTET wrote: OK Bruce, OK Jan, I consider myself outvoted on the aspiration of kic(h)u. Fact is, with c, I tend to have trouble hearing the difference between aspiration and lack of it. With p/t/k this is a lot easier. I'm sure there is a phonological explanation for this -- maybe the alveolar fricative that technically precedes the aspiration in the affricate c has something to do with it. Regina Jan Ullrich wrote: REGINA PUSTET wrote: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > I have transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. Regina, I have always heard ch (aspirated) in this word. Of course, the aspiration tends to be weaker at the end of long words, for instance when there are many personal affixes involved in verb, as in wichauNkichupi 'we gave it back to them'. Jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Tue Jan 22 20:24:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:24:04 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <555068.83318.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Regina, Many thanks for this response. My apologies for perhaps "muddying up" the issue somewhat! Obviously my post was no model of clarity : My intention was to make it clear that Buechel-Manhart (2002, p.175) , echoing Riggs (1890, p. 285), actually HAD asserted pretty authoritatively, that Consonant 2 in kic(h)u was NOT ejectivized, despite (what both lexicographers register as) the verb's derivation from k'u. In my edition, B-M says : "kic(h)u : [fr. k'u to give to] ....Note : by analogy the word should be kic'u, but it is not." Also, your suggested etymology of phute'okicu from kic(h)u makes sense to me : elephants do do just that with their food & other stuff, seeming indeed to be feeding themselves, I have noticed (or used to, in the distant era when itinerant circusses in rural Australia actually had elephants. As a small boy, I used to watch them feed in a paddock, not far from our house.) Might it in fact be then that, just as B-M. say [p.278], the verbal part of the compound DOES derive from wokicu, perhaps a Possessive- Dative form of wok'u 'to give food to', meaning in this instance 'give (one's own) food to' -- which may have lost its ejective c' for the same 'reason' as kic(h)u? Trouble is, B-M. fails to list such a form : a fact which, one supposes, may not be totally conclusive? Nevertheless, wokicu IS mentioned in the entry for phuthokic(h)u. And yet, I have an idea that I have come across other such derived forms in the course of reading texts (in BH [1924], I think, but may be mistaken), which (unlike ikicu) do/did evidently exist, but were omitted from the dictionary. My understanding of B-M.'s term "gutteralization" was that it referred to the fricative articulation, or velar release, of the Lakhota aspirated stops kh-, ph-, & th- preceding the vowels a, aN, uN, o, (& sometimes e), as indicated in the Txakini, & Ullrich orthographies. Not correct? My exasperation with B-M. was at their very confusing annotation of BOTH the unaspirated stops AND these aspirated 'gutteralized' ones with a (to my eyes) identical superscript dot (See : B-M Dict. "Guide to Pronunciation", p. xiv.) But perhaps I've misunderstood something? Kind regards, Clive. P.S. May I thank you also for your seminal contributions to Lakhota studies. I find your papers on the Lakhota Article, on Split Intransitivity in Lakhota & Osage; on 'etaN' & 'etaNhaN'; on the Postpositions; on 'el' VS 'ekta'; as well as on the Coding of (Siouan) oblique case relations most illuminating. I am so looking forward to the publication of your Reference Grammar! On 22/01/2008, at 9:51 PM, REGINA PUSTET wrote: > Incidentally, I have collected some data on kicu 'to give back to' > because this verb gave me trouble when dealing with Lakota > benefactives/possessives. The file still looks chaotic and I'm not > even trying to present you with a clear picture of the > morphological properties of kicu, but I think I can say this much: > phutokicu 'elephant' might easily be derived from kicu 'to give > back', a possible interpretation being 'to give back to the upper > lip'. Elephants use their trunks to grab stuff and place it in > their mouths (under their upper lips?) by bending back the trunk. > So they pretty much 'give back' or return the upper lip to their > mouths. Well, maybe that still sounds a bit weird. How about 'to > give things (wo-) back to the upper lip'? Or: 'to give/move things > back WITH the upper lip' (the trunk is an extension of the upper lip)? > Examples for kicu: > ogle ki kicu > shirt DEF give back > 'he returned the shirt to her' > > he kicu we! > that give back imperative > 'give it back to him!' > > In contrast to what Buechel says, kicu should not be written kic'u > because the c is absolutely not glottalized. I will still have to > figure out on the basis of my data if there is an etymological > connection between kicu and icu 'to take', or possibly even between > kicu and k'u 'to give', and whether a benefactive or possessive ki- > should be posited as morphological component of kicu. I have > transcribed the c in kicu as an unaspirated stop. > Some of the flyspecks in Buechel's transcription are negligible and > confusing because they simulate phonetic distinctions which aren't > there. There are three types of stops in Lakota: unaspirated, > aspirated, and glottalized. Buechel adds a fourth category, which > represents a special type of aspiration, but which I have never > been able to single out acoustically. According to Buechel's > definition, this must be a "gutturalized aspiration", and the exact > phonetic value of this category still is a mystery to me. > icu 'to take' has an irregular benefactive/possessive form ikikcu. > The expected form ikicu does not exist. > > Regina > > > Clive Bloomfield wrote: > I've been little puzzled about the Buechel-Manhart etymology > supplied for phute'okicu or phuto'kicu [=elephant] : > (Quote) Page 278 : "from pute'= upper lip + wokicu=what one > RESTORES." (unquote, my emphasis). Why 'restores'? 'Restores' what? > Moreover, one notes that while 'wok'u' [with specialized meanings : > i) give food to; ii) lend] does occur in the dictionary, the said > form 'wokicu' is nowhere given. > > If I am correctly interpreting B-Md.'s rather bamboozling system of > tiny superscript dots & microscopic inverted "flyspecks" for > annotation of the unaspirated/aspirated/"gutturalized"/ejective > consonantal contrast, as employed in their phonological > transcriptions for each dictionary headword (2002 edition), this > word is "phute'okichu", hence, apparently, that etymology from > kichu 'restore/give back' > (or is that just 'kicu'? - & I'm using a large magnifying glass! > In my edition of B-Md., the -c- is printed with NO dot, so accdg. > to the Guide to Pron. p.xiv, it sounds as intitial ch- is Engl. > 'chair' : aspirated, no?). > > B&D. supply [p.89, Sect 104, 1.] : kichu' =to give back one's own'. > > On the other hand, at the entry for kichu (kicu?) 'restore' , B- > Md., (echoing Riggs' Dakota dict., s.v.), make a point of saying > that this verb, by rights, ought to be kic'u, (as a derivative, > obviously of k'u, with B&D's ki- 'back again' prefix), but ISN'T, > and loses the ejectivity of C2. Perhaps then it is kicu, after all?? > > Initially, I supposed that some confusion had arisen, perhaps due > to Fr. Manhart (possibly?) being rather 'hoist in the petard' of > this somewhat quirky orthographical system, and that perhaps the > verbal part of the compound might be simply a Dative-Possessive > form of icu 'take/take up', with added locative prefix 'o-' > 'inside', hence etymology : 'he picks (it) up inside his upper-lip > (trunk)'-->'elephant'. > But then one observes that icu has an (apparently reduplicated/ > syncopated?) possessive form 'ikikcu' 'take back what one has given/ > take back one's own' (B-Md. s.v.), and there also exists a form > 'iikcu' 'take or obtain what one expects', but apparently no > 'ikicu'! Wouldn't the form corresponding to my etymological > speculation here, have been (phute)-oIKIcu? > > Anyway, while people are setting me straight on that, here's > another speculative idea to account for the etymology of > 'phute'okichu' : > > There is a verb ochu' meaning "to become damp in/to have drops of > water inside". > The Dative/Possessive form might be "ok?chu" : "it has [drops of] > water inside (FOR him)"--->"his ....has [drops of] water inside". > > Could the etymology of phut?okichu be "his trunk (lit. upper lip) > has [drops of] water inside" or "he has water inside his trunk", > possibly originating when some Lakota person first saw a circus > elephant giving itself a "shower"? > > I know: it's a bit 'cute', and prob. transgresses good old William > of Occam's ever-useful maxim, but I plead the mitigation of those > infuriating dots swimming before my eyes! > Il ne s'agit qu' un crime passionel, monsieur le juge! ;) > > Kind regards, > > Clive. > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 23 04:37:42 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:37:42 -0600 Subject: Lakota elephants! Message-ID: > On to Lakota kicu, kichu etc... Gesundheit! Bob From jfu at centrum.cz Wed Jan 23 21:13:27 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:13:27 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <291055.3336.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and materials. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 23 21:48:19 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:48:19 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) Message-ID: That makes much better sense, as it clearly relates the verb to k?u 'give'. Kaw uses wajutta ppa sceje 'long-nosed (4 legged) animal'. But I liked their secondary terms better: wakkaNda ttaNga ppa sceje 'great long-nosed god' and wakkaNda xoje ttaNga 'great gray god'. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Wed 1/23/2008 3:13 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Re : "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and materials. Jan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 23 23:57:45 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:57:45 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <000701c85e04$cc6d3b90$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: The other one I like is wamnitu 'whale', which I presume is analysable as wa- something, mni- water -tu 'to be' ie 'something which is in water', though probably other Siouanists willl tell me mine is a folk etymology and it is really a borrowing from some other Siouan language. Any info? Bruce --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 24 02:38:18 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:38:18 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <568530.24554.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is fascinating to delve into these Lakota words for animals which seem somewhat exotic to the Lakhota Makhoche! One notes that, according to B-Md. [p.341] the word wamnitu, which (unless, as Bruce muses, it is a folk-etymology) seems to mean originally not much more than "thing/ creature (which lives?) in the water" [wa-mni-tu]-->"sea-monster"??, may also be applied to the HIPPOPOTAMUS, which again, to the best of my knowledge, would not be found in huge numbers on the Great Plains of North America! ;) As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. I wonder could anybody be so kind as to look up the word or expression which Riggs/Williamson/J.Renville use in the Dakota Old Testament to translate "LEVIATHAN" in that splendid & familiar old verse from book of Job, where God bullies & overawes poor suffering Job : "Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook?" [JOB; Chaper 41, 1] John Poage Williamson supplies : "hogan iyotan tanka" for 'whale' in his Engl-Dakota Dict., [Iapi Oaye Press, Yankton Agency, 1886; p.140] Dakota Genesis, which I do have, reads, at 1:21 : "Hecen Wakantanka hogan tankinyanyan oicah^ye..." : "And God created great whales,..." There are also : 1) "CHUWINUNGE" /chuw?nuNg^e/ (meaning, presumably "swollen-backed" or "hunch-backed") now also meaning "CAMEL". [A Buech. BH 1924 word, I think] Interestingly, J.P.Williamson gives 'cankahu pajo' /chaNk?hu paz^?/ for the ship of the desert. That would appear to mean something like : "(creature with) prominent back-bone" Cf. paj?la: "hillock"; paj?ya : (advb) "hill-like; swelled up (as pimples get (!))" [B-Md. pp.262-263] 2) "SHUNKA WICASHA" /s^uNk? wich?s^a/ [I guess, given that accentuation by B-M.(p.291) signifying "man(like)-dog"?---> "MONKEY".] Evidently monkeys must have tickled the Lakota sense of humour somewhat, because I've come across a couple of other funny & strikingly descriptive words for these humanoid little beasts : 3) "HEYOLELA" /hey?lela/ [=little seeker for lice (h?ya) (See B&D; Sect.8; p.10]; 4) "WAUNCHALA" /wa?Nchala/ [=little mocker, or imitator (See B&D; Sect.55; p.54)]. J. Poage Williamson has : "waunca" for monkey [E-Ddict. p.107] Finally, there is this totally intriguing & mysterious word : 5) UNHCEGILA /uNh^c?g^ila/ : Buechel-Manhart [p.318], quoting S.R. Riggs, (who glosses it with 'T' Teton), supplies : "MASTODON, perhaps, or other large animals whose petrified remains are found in the Dakota Territory" An ancient word? "Lakotafied" from another language?? Love to know the etymology of that one! Clive. On 24/01/2008, at 10:57 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > The other one I like is wamnitu 'whale', which I presume is > analysable as wa- something, mni- water -tu 'to be' ie 'something > which is in water', though probably other Siouanists willl tell me > mine is a folk etymology and it is really a borrowing from some > other Siouan language. Any info? > Bruce > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jan 24 04:50:40 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:50:40 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 09:32:16 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:32:16 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 24 10:14:42 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:14:42 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <47985B20020000A600004586@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 11:06:41 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:06:41 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <158987.9203.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've checked the Vulgate and a German (admittedly Lutheran rather than Catholic) Bibe translation and in both of them it's a 'big fish', not a whale. I assume Buechel would have translated either from the German Bible as used by Catholics of his time or from the Vulgate. The Greek NT has a big fish too. As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien to native speakers of English as they would be to Lakota speakers. Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 01/24/08 10:14 am >>> Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Jan 24 16:07:43 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:07:43 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" (etymological enquiry) In-Reply-To: <000701c85e04$cc6d3b90$6501a8c0@pchonza> Message-ID: Quoting Jan Ullrich : > I asked a fluent speaker today about "elephant" and he pronounced it > clearly with ejective c: phutewokic'u. He said it means "he gives food > to his own lip", consisting of phute 'lip' and wokic'u 'to give foot to > one's own'. The word wokic'u is attested by other speakers and > materials. > Thank you for saving the day, Jan. I annotated my Buechel dictionary accordingly. Willem From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Jan 24 16:06:34 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:06:34 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun) ????? Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: > Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I > think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. > I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if > this is an accident or a superior translation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > >> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN >> TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > ____________________ ??? (??) ????? - ????? www.fa-kuan.muc.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 24 16:39:45 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:39:45 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <47987141020000A600004596@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Interesting. I wonder what it is in the original Hebrew. In the Quran Yunis (Jonah) is swallowed by huut (with pharyngeal -h-). Nowadays this is the Arabic word for whale, but I doubt that the 7th century Arabs were any more familiar with whales than the Ancient Hebrews. In Moroccan Arabic huut is the normal word for fish. One wonders however, if the whale is not intended in the Old Testament, what they could have been thinking about. After all a whale is the only fish on earth, which one could imagine large enough to swallow a man whole. Could they have heard of whales from those further afield? Did it wait for the scriptures to reach Northern Europe before it could be interpreted strictly as a whale? Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: I've checked the Vulgate and a German (admittedly Lutheran rather than Catholic) Bibe translation and in both of them it's a 'big fish', not a whale. I assume Buechel would have translated either from the German Bible as used by Catholics of his time or from the Vulgate. The Greek NT has a big fish too. As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien to native speakers of English as they would be to Lakota speakers. Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 01/24/08 10:14 am >>> Buechel gives wamnitu as 'whale or hippopotamus'. I suppose it is a case of it being a name given to a large animal living, at least occasionally in water, which is unfamiliar to the Lakotas and that they have heard of from the whites. I don't know who ate Jonas, but in my folk memory as a C of E Brit I'm sure we always refer to Jonah and the Whale. I haven't got a King James version of the OT available to check it in the original. Yes Buechel's Bible history gives hogan tanka wan and also for the story of Tobias a hogan wan tanka (his orthography). There is a very good description of an Unkchegila in Buechel's tales and Texts in a story called Pretty weasel goes on a raid. They find one where the rain has washes away the soil. They say it looks like a horse but is much bigger and has a long pointed nose. I give it to my students asa translation exercise and offer extra marks if anyone can guess what the beast is. Bruce Anthony Grant wrote: My understanding is that whatever swallowed Jonah, it certainly wasn't a whale as we know it. I'd never thought that whales were native to the Middle East anyway! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 01/24/08 4:50 am >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 16:23:35 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:23:35 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <29B3A2A7-0BB2-4FB0-A59F-54849FAB11CD@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: Alfred et al: I just checked. The Hebrew Bible has dag gadol - big fish. Anthony >>> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" 01/24/08 4:06 pm >>> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun) ????? Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: > Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I > think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. > I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if > this is an accident or a superior translation. > > Bob > > ________________________________ > >> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN >> TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > ____________________ () - www.fa-kuan.muc.de ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jan 24 17:57:08 2008 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:57:08 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <335127.63942.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not following why ancient Hebrews and 7th century Arabs should have been ignorant of whales. They both had coasts, or were very close to people that did, the former on the Mediterranean and the latter on the Red Sea, Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. Even if whales were never sighted at sea by sailors, they would still be known through occasional beachings. This was not the middle of a large continent, as for MVS peoples. I'm sure whales would have been well known throughout most of the Middle East since the beginning of human habitation there. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Jan 24 18:16:33 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:16:33 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol" ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????, ???????? ???-?????? And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. T?ting: > Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: > "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - > thet - nun) > ????? > Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very > same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier > Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". > > I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling > of Jona in the whale/fish. > > Alfred > > > Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I >> think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. >> I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if >> this is an accident or a superior translation. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >> >> > > ____________________ > > ??? (??) > ????? - ????? > > www.fa-kuan.muc.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 18:24:22 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:24:22 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <1CAC851E-B5D0-44D7-B377-5FC5066E4085@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: yes >>> ""Alfred W. T?ting"" 01/24/08 6:16 pm >>> (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol" ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????, ???????? ???-????? And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. T?ting: > Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: > "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - > thet - nun) > ????? > Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very > same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier > Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". > > I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling > of Jona in the whale/fish. > > Alfred > > > Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I >> think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. >> I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if >> this is an accident or a superior translation. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >> >> > > ____________________ > > () > - > > www.fa-kuan.muc.de ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From willemdereuse at unt.edu Thu Jan 24 19:44:48 2008 From: willemdereuse at unt.edu (willemdereuse at unt.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:44:48 -0600 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Rory M Larson : > > I'm not following why ancient Hebrews and 7th century Arabs should have > been ignorant of whales. They both had coasts, or were very close to > people that did, the former on the Mediterranean and the latter on the Red > Sea, Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. Even if whales were never sighted at > sea by sailors, they would still be known through occasional beachings. > This was not the middle of a large continent, as for MVS peoples. I'm sure > whales would have been well known throughout most of the Middle East since > the beginning of human habitation there. > > Rory I agree. I am not sure if whales are often seen in the Red Sea and in the Mediterranean, but the Phoenicians, neighbors of the Hebrews, and who sailed way beyond these seas would certainly have known about whales. There must have been at least a Phoenician word for a whale. Willem From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 00:06:15 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:06:15 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <1CAC851E-B5D0-44D7-B377-5FC5066E4085@fa-kuan.muc.de> Message-ID: In my opinion, it would be very surprising indeed, if Fr. Eugene Buechel S.J., (b.1873) as a member of the Society of Jesus who had been trained in Germany & the Netherlands in the 1890's & early 1900's,, was NOT thoroughly versed at least in the canonical scriptural languages of Hebrew, Greek & Latin, (if not in Aramaic & Syriac also, and perhaps even some Coptic). As people here will know, the Jesuits have always been renowned for being the Catholic Church's elite scholarly order. By the same token, I reckon there is also a reasonable likelihood that Stephen Return Riggs & Thomas S. Williamson would also have acquired the standard XIXc. missionary's equipment of at least some acquaintance with those languages also, and perhaps even had scholarly in-depth knowledge of the Hebrew OT, the Greek NT, and the Latin Vulgate. At the risk of seeming to be doing a reprise of Herman Melville's learned treatise on Cetology in the wonderful "Moby Dick", perhaps it may be of relevance & interest to explore in some detail the original scriptural texts of GENESIS 1:21, which the translators of the Dakota Bible (1879) evidently based their translations on : 'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created great fishes..." Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite the Hebrew OT. Here goes : The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads : ??????????? ????????? ????????????????? ???????????? in which the words used for the object of the verb : (ha)tanni:nim (ha)gedoli:m 'the great dragons/sea-monsters' were rendered : "And God created great whales.." (King James Version 1611), "And God created the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are : That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.) (for some reason, this didn't get through) > > Let me add this: > > this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or > "dag gadol" ???? ??????? > > > ??????? ?????? ???? ???????, > ???????? ???-?????? > And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah > > Alfred > > Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. T?ting: > >> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: >> "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - >> thet - nun) >> ????? >> Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the >> very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by >> "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". >> >> I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story >> telling of Jona in the whale/fish. >> >> Alfred >> >> >> Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but >>> I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew >>> text. I'll have to check into the education of the translator to >>> see if this is an accident or a superior translation. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >>> >>> >> >> ____________________ >> >> ??? (??) >> ????? - ????? >> >> www.fa-kuan.muc.de > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 03:01:42 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:01:42 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies to any Greek scholars here for that unaspirated masculine sing. definite article & for those other two initial vowels which ought to have been aspirated : The diacritics on my Polytonic Greek font are not only vanishingly microscopic, and thus difficult to distinguish, (even when magnified), but the Greek 'spiritus asper' ( 'he daseia prosoidia') or so called "rough breathing" appears to have been completely omitted by the makers. Nevertheless, I have indicated the aspirates in my transliterations. Just for the record. Clive. On 26/01/2008, at 11:06 AM, Clive Bloomfield wrote: > The Hellenistic Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX), at > Genesis 1:21, reads : > > ??? ???????? ? ???? ?? ???? ?? > ??????... > [Kai epoiesen ho Theos ta kete ta megala..."And God created the > great sea-monsters/whales..."] , > > > > Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota > translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for > comparison : > > "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin > ohna un qon he iyecen..." > > "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's > belly..." [KJV, 1611]; > > ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? > ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? > ??????... > .[hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai > treis nyktas...[Above transliterated]; > [Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX Book of > Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ]; > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/01/2008, at 5:16 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > >> (for some reason, this didn't get through) >> >> Let me add this: >> >> this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or >> "dag gadol" ???? ??????? >> >> >> ??????? ?????? ???? ???????, >> ???????? ???-?????? >> And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah >> >> Alfred >> >> Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. T?ting: >> >>> Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: >>> "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud >>> - thet - nun) >>> ????? >>> Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the >>> very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by >>> "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". >>> >>> I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story >>> telling of Jona in the whale/fish. >>> >>> Alfred >>> >>> >>> Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: >>>> Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, >>>> but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original >>>> Hebrew text. I'll have to check into the education of the >>>> translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>>> As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, >>>>> Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : >>>>> "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ____________________ >>> >>> ??? (??) >>> ????? - ????? >>> >>> www.fa-kuan.muc.de >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 04:58:04 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:58:04 +1100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: <335127.63942.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is the Hebrew for : JONAH 1:17 (KJV numbering); 2:1 (Hebrew Bible, LXX & Clem. Vulgate numbering) : ???????? ??????? ????? ???????? ????????? ??????????? "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish [dag gadol] to swallow up Jonah." [KJV 1:17]; ...????? ?????? /k?tei megal?i/ : (Dative Sg. Neut.) : "lit.(to a) great sea-monster/whale" [LXX 2:1]; "...piscem grandem" : (Accus. Sg. Masc.) [Clem. Vulgate 2:1]; 1 and : JONAH 2:1 (KJV); 2-2 (HB, LXX, ClemVulg.) : ??????????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ????????? ?????????? "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's [(ha) dagah] belly." [KJV 2:1]; ...?? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? /ek t?s koilias tou k?tous/ : "out of the belly of the sea-monster/whale" [LXX 2:2] ; "...de ventre (utero) piscis" [ClemVulg. 2:2] Now lastly, JONAH 2-10 (KJV); 2-11 (HB, LXX, ClemVulg.) : ?????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????????? "And the Lord spake (unto) the fish [(la)dag], and it vomited out Jonah." [KJV 2:10] LXX : ?? ????? /t?i k?tei/ (Dat.Sg.N.) : "to the great sea- monster/whale" [LXX 2:11] "pisci" (Dat. Sg. Masc.) : simply, "to the fish" [Clem.Vulgate 2:11] BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting tongue also, ?uta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ?utiet ; (Collective) ?ut] is the usual word for fish. Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. balienat, or balieniet. But doubtless that is old news to you. Anybody got the Dakota texts? Pretty please? :) Clive. P.S. Buechel's Roman Catholic German bible, (if he consulted one), would probably have been a version of the so-called (Johann) DIETENBERGER Bible of 1534, a sort of RC 'counterblast' to Luther's magnificent translation. Would that be correct Alfred? I guess S.R. Riggs & co., as Protestant clergymen, might have checked the KJV (which they probably knew by heart, in any case!). On 25/01/2008, at 3:39 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Interesting. I wonder what it is in the original Hebrew. In the > Quran Yunis (Jonah) is swallowed by huut (with pharyngeal -h-). > Nowadays this is the Arabic word for whale, but I doubt that the > 7th century Arabs were any more familiar with whales than the > Ancient Hebrews. In Moroccan Arabic huut is the normal word for > fish. One wonders however, if the whale is not intended in the Old > Testament, what they could have been thinking about. After all a > whale is the only fish on earth, which one could imagine large > enough to swallow a man whole. Could they have heard of whales > from those further afield? Did it wait for the scriptures to reach > Northern Europe before it could be interpreted strictly as a whale? > Bruce > > > > > As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, > Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN > TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated > companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. > You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, > print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended > recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not > actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary > for Edge Hill University to access business communications during > staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and > any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no > responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or > damage arising in any way from its use. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > --------------------------------- > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated > companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. > You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, > print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended > recipient. > > The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to > identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not > actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary > for Edge Hill University to access business communications during > staff absence. > > Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and > any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no > responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or > damage arising in any way from its use. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 26 13:38:28 2008 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:38:28 +0000 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting about the tinniin word. Nowadays in general usage in Arabic it is used for 'dragon'. Bruce Clive Bloomfield wrote: In my opinion, it would be very surprising indeed, if Fr. Eugene Buechel S.J., (b.1873) as a member of the Society of Jesus who had been trained in Germany & the Netherlands in the 1890's & early 1900's,, was NOT thoroughly versed at least in the canonical scriptural languages of Hebrew, Greek & Latin, (if not in Aramaic & Syriac also, and perhaps even some Coptic). As people here will know, the Jesuits have always been renowned for being the Catholic Church's elite scholarly order.? By the same token, I reckon there is also a reasonable likelihood that Stephen Return Riggs & Thomas S. Williamson would also have acquired the standard XIXc. missionary's equipment of at least some acquaintance with those languages also, and perhaps even had scholarly in-depth knowledge of the Hebrew OT, the Greek NT, and the Latin Vulgate. At the risk of seeming to be doing a reprise of Herman Melville's learned treatise on Cetology in the wonderful "Moby Dick", perhaps it may be of relevance & interest to explore in some detail the original scriptural texts of GENESIS 1:21, which the translators of the Dakota Bible (1879) evidently based their translations on : ? 'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created great fishes..." Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite the Hebrew OT. Here goes : The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads : ? ? ? ? ? ?????????????????????? ?????????????????? ??????????????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????????????????? in which the words used for the object of the verb :? (ha)tanni:nim? (ha)gedoli:m? 'the great dragons/sea-monsters'? were rendered :? ? "And God created? great whales.." (King James Version 1611),? "And God created? the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are? : That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.)>From there on, it went into Latin, (which also, incidentally, had another word balaena, from which stemmed many derivatives in mod. European languages). In the so-called Clementine Vulgate 1592? (named after Pope Clement VIII 1592-1605), the standard RC Counter-Reformation revision/rescension of St. Jerome's well-known? Latin rendering, the ? text of Genesis 1:21 reads : "Creavitque Deus cete grandia...", where kete? [????????] is the Greek neuter accusative plural of ketus? just adopted wholesale into Latin (spelled cetus; Pl. cete), as the neuter acc. pl. of the adjective 'grandis' ? demonstrates by concord. (Latin often just adopts Greek words holus-bolus, and uses the Greek declensional case-endings on Greek words, rather than the Latin ones - most well-educated Romans had a fluent command of Hellenistic, if not Classical, Greek, having in very many cases studied philosophy/literature/natural-science (or attended 'finishing school' , as it were) in Athens, or some other Greek city, perhaps in Ionia, the stamping-ground of early western science. A cursory glance at Cicero's numerous very entertaining letters will reveal many Greek words, freq. left in the original script. A command of Greek, for cultivated Romans, was regarded much like a knowledge of French & Latin used to be considered in Europe & America, as a mark of breeding & superior education. What a falling-off there has been, eh? Just kidding, folks.? ;)? ) Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for comparison : "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin ohna un qon he iyecen..." "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's belly..." [KJV, 1611]; "For as Jonah was in the whale's belly three days & nights..." [Douai-Rheims, NT 1582, OT 1609]; ??????????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ????? ????? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ?? ??????????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????????....[Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX? Book of? Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ]; ? hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai treis nyktas...[Above transliterated];? Sicut enim fuit Jonas in ventre ceti tribus diebus et tribus noctibus...[Clem. Vulgate 1592]. Here, we can see that the word of our NT Greek orig.? ketos has been rendered by hogan tanka /hog^a'N tha'Nka/. It would be fascinating to know the Dakota words used for 'whale/great fish' in the following passages also, if anybody has them at their fingertips : JOB 7:12, and 41:1; EZEKIEL 32:2; JONAH 1:17; 2:10 Incidentally, the LXX original of both passages at JOB 7:12, & 40:20 (numbering of verses in LXX, & Vulgate sometimes differs from KJV)? uses a different Greek word ???????????? /drakon/ dragon,which KJV chose to render with? whale? &? leviathan? respectively.? This is another of those words of somewhat vague & wide application, meaning in Homeric & Classical Greek : snake; serpent (Autentrieth, Op.cit, s.v.); described by Homer as being of huge size, "coiled like a snake, of blood-red or dark colour, shot with changeful hues, dwelling in mountains, feeding on poisonous herbs, with three heads" (Iliad 2.200-208; 11.40; 12.201, 208) .? "It appears to have been really the? python, or boa". [LSJ, s.v.]. ? Aristotle in HA 8.13.3 used the word to denote a large sea-fish of some description : "the great weever" [LSJ].? Kind regards, Clive. ? ? ? ? On 25/01/2008, at 5:16 AM, Alfred W. T??ting wrote: (for some reason, this didn't get through) Let me add this: this is the original text that actually speaks of a "huge fish" or "dag gadol" ? ???????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ????????????? ???????? ??????????????, ???????????????? ??????-??????? ???? And the LORD prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah Alfred Am 24.01.2008 um 17:06 schrieb Alfred W. T??ting: Consulting my bookshelf, here are my two cents: "whale" in modern Ivrith still is "lifyathan" (lamed - vav - yud - thet - nun)? ?????????? Searching my dictionary for Biblical Hebrew for it yielded the very same word (same, yet vocalized, spelling), translated by "Riesentier Leviathan, Schlange, Krokodil". I'll be trying to retrieve the Hebrew original of that story telling of Jona in the whale/fish. Alfred? Am 24.01.2008 um 05:50 schrieb Rankin, Robert L: Not being well versed in matters theological, I may be wrong, but I think 'great fish' more closely mirrors the original Hebrew text. ? I'll have to check into the education of the translator to see if this is an accident or a superior translation. Bob ________________________________ As a matter of interest, in the OT story of Jonas & the Whale, Buechel's Bible History Stories (1924) merely uses (p.127) : "HOGAN TANKA" [= big fish] for the famous 'whale'. ____________________ ????????? (??????) ???????????????? - ??????????????? www.fa-kuan.muc.de --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Jan 26 18:32:22 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:32:22 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am 26.01.2008 um 01:06 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > (...) > > 'Hecen Wakantanka hog^an tankinkinyan oicah^ye... "So God created > great fishes..." > > > Now, our member Alfred is the Hebrew scholar par-excellence amongst > us, but by his leave & subject to his correction, I will first cite > the Hebrew OT. Here goes : > The text of Hebrew Bible for GEN 1:21 reads : > ??????????? ????????? ???? > ????????????? ???????????? Yes, my good old dictionary of Biblical Hebrew lists the word ?? tha:n also (as referred to by you, below) giving it as "W?stentier, Schakal" respectively. It is noted there that the word exists in plural form only. (BTW, it's pretty self-evident that this word designating that "monstrous" animal of the desert also is part of the compound livya-tha:n !). In modern Hebrew ???? sg. ????? pl. is the designation for crocodile (Krokodil), but snake (Schlange) in bibl. sense. > in which the words used for the object of the verb : (ha)tanni:nim > (ha)gedoli:m 'the great dragons/sea-monsters' were rendered : > > "And God created great whales.." (King James Version 1611), > > "And God created the great whales..."[Douai Rheims (-R.Catholic tr. > NT 1582; OT 1609) ] are : (...) Okay, great job retrieving this, yet, back to our initial point, wasn't it just to prove that the original Biblical story of Jonah in the "whale" was translated correctly into La?ota by using the word ho?a? ?a?ka? That this term had not just been a circumscriptional stopgap (based on the translator's not knowing it better or the deficiency of the La?ota language lacking more adequate a term for that "sea monster")? BTW, I totally do share your view on Father Eugen, in special, and the calibre of Jesuits, in general. ;-) My personal conclusion drawn out of this research is that the biblical scribes (etc.) maybe did know what a whale was, yet that they obviously (not unlike oyate - who had not even a chance to know the beast!) didn't have a word ready to name it, so they attributed the monster with the names they had for desert beasts etc.. Actually, the scribe of our Jonah story didn't use one of these handy words, conservatively speaking only of a "huge fish". IMVHO, he didn't even want to tell us that "the huge fish" actually was a whale (this constriction in the sense of specification being the work of "successors" in later times). Thanks a lot for your - as ever - most thoroughly reseached contribution, misun, he un lila ?ilamayaye. Alfred le miye lo. > That interesting word tanniynim/tanni:nim (Pl.) (with an 'erroneous' by-form tanni:m)[cf. Modern Written Arabic > tinniyn/tinni:n; Pl. tana:ni:n; - which, as Bruce will know, > signifies : "sea monster; Draco (astron.); waterspout (meteor.) > [Arab.-Engl.Dict.. Hans Wehr, ed. J.M.Cowan, NY, 1976]; also occurs > in Syriac & Ethiopic). > This word is said by Gesenius' Hebrew-Engl. Lexicon of O.T. (ed. & > rev. by Brown, Briggs & Driver, Clarendon Pr, Oxf.,1951) to be a > loan-word from Aramaic tanniyna', and appears to have had a somewhat > indeterminate meaning > (much like that other Hebrew word leviathan/livya:tha:n, and the > Ancient Greek/Latin cetos/cetus ) : > > "serpent (venomous) [Dt 32:33]; dragon (as devourer)[Jer 51:24]; > sea- (or river-) monster [Gn 1:21]." > > At Psalms 74:13, the same word is even used, figuratively, of the > Egyptian oppressors, and is rendered in the KJV as 'dragons', while > at Isaiah 51:9, it is used of the mythological personification of > Chaos 'Rahab/Rahav', and once again translated by the King James > version as ' the dragon', > > > Another Hebrew-Engl. lexicon (Samuel Bagster & sons, 1911) glosses > the word thus : > > "1) a serpent; 2) any large marine animal; 3) a crocodile." > > (Incidentally, there was another word : tan/ta:n with whose Pl. > forms tanni:m/tanni:n our word just discussed appears to have been > sometimes conflated. Its meaning appears to have been 'howling > thing; jackal; wolf; other wild animals of the desert; "precise > meaning unknown"[Op.cit., s.v.] '.) > > [The Gesenius Hebr. Lexicon also gives a rare Arabic cognate > ti:na:n(un), (which I am unable to locate in Wehr). Perhaps it was > an ancient word?? > Gesenius glosses tan/ta:n evocatively as "jackal, howling mournfully > in waste places", (Op.Cit., s.v.)] > > > Yet another respected standard dictionary of Biblical Hebrew (Dr. > Karl Feyerabend, Langenscheidt, n.d.) supplies the following > meanings for tanni:n/tanni:m , which reveal rather succinctly the > word's wide semantic range : > > "great water-animal; whale; shark; crocodile; serpent; sea-monster" > > > > The Hellenistic Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX), at > Genesis 1:21, reads : > > ??? ???????? ? ???? ?? ???? ?? > ??????... [Kai epoiesen ho Theos ta kete ta megala..."And God > created the great sea-monsters/whales..."] , > > using the accusative plural of the Ancient Greek word ketos > [?????] (neuter singular) : > > "any sea-monster, or huge fish" [Liddell, Scott & Jones ("LSJ"), > Greek-Engl. Lexicon, 9th Rev. Ed.]; > > "Orig. sense 'gulf' ...a sea-monster, also applied to seals" [A > Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, R.J.Cunliffe, London&Glasgow; 1924]; > > "sea-monster, e.g. sharks & seals" [A Homeric Dictionary, Georg > Autentrieth, (tr. R.P.Keep), 1876, 1901] > > According to LSJ (s.v.), the word had long been used by Homer > [Odyssey 12.97; Iliad 20.147], and also occurs in the Histories of > Herodotus [Bk IV.53]. Ketos could also, we are told by LSJ, have the > meaning of "seal; sea-calf", and was evidently used in this sense at > Odyssey 4.446 & 452. > The tragedian Euripides [fragment 121], and the comedian > Aristophanes [Nubes, 556] employed the word to refer to monster to > which Andromeda was exposed. > Later on, Aristotle used ketos in his treatises Historia Animalium > (HA) [VI.12.1], and De Partibus Animalium(PA) [III.6.2] in the sense > of : > "any animal of the whale kind; a cetacean". > From there on, it went into Latin, (which also, incidentally, had > another word balaena, from which stemmed many derivatives in mod. > European languages). > > > > In the so-called Clementine Vulgate 1592 (named after Pope Clement > VIII 1592-1605), the standard RC Counter-Reformation revision/ > rescension of St. Jerome's well-known Latin rendering, the text of > Genesis 1:21 reads : > > "Creavitque Deus cete grandia...", where kete [????] is the Greek > neuter accusative plural of ketus just adopted wholesale into Latin > (spelled cetus; Pl. cete), as the neuter acc. pl. of the adjective > 'grandis' demonstrates by concord. (Latin often just adopts Greek > words holus-bolus, and uses the Greek declensional case-endings on > Greek words, rather than the Latin ones - most well-educated Romans > had a fluent command of Hellenistic, if not Classical, Greek, having > in very many cases studied philosophy/literature/natural-science (or > attended 'finishing school' , as it were) in Athens, or some other > Greek city, perhaps in Ionia, the stamping-ground of early western > science. A cursory glance at Cicero's numerous very entertaining > letters will reveal many Greek words, freq. left in the original > script. A command of Greek, for cultivated Romans, was regarded much > like a knowledge of French & Latin used to be considered in Europe & > America, as a mark of breeding & superior education. What a falling- > off there has been, eh? Just kidding, folks. ;) ) > > > > Finally, in the other Biblical passage for which I have the Dakota > translation, Matthew 12:40, the following are original texts for > comparison : > > "Anpetu yamni qa hanyetu yamni hehanyan Jonas hogan tanka tezi kin > ohna un qon he iyecen..." > > "For as Jonah was three days & three nights in the whale's > belly..." [KJV, 1611]; > > "For as Jonah was in the whale's belly three days & > nights..." [Douai-Rheims, NT 1582, OT 1609]; > > ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? > ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? > ??????....[Greek NT, echoing the exact words used in the LXX > Book of Jonas at 2:1; 2:2 ]; > > hosper gar en Ionas en tei koiliai tou ketous treis hemeras kai > treis nyktas...[Above transliterated]; > > Sicut enim fuit Jonas in ventre ceti tribus diebus et tribus > noctibus...[Clem. Vulgate 1592]. > > > Here, we can see that the word of our NT Greek orig. ketos has been > rendered by hogan tanka /hog^a'N tha'Nka/. > > > > It would be fascinating to know the Dakota words used for 'whale/ > great fish' in the following passages also, if anybody has them at > their fingertips : > > JOB 7:12, and 41:1; > > EZEKIEL 32:2; > > JONAH 1:17; 2:10 > > > > Incidentally, the LXX original of both passages at JOB 7:12, & 40:20 > (numbering of verses in LXX, & Vulgate sometimes differs from KJV) > uses a different Greek word ?????? /drakon/ dragon,which KJV > chose to render with whale & leviathan respectively. This is another > of those words of somewhat vague & wide application, meaning in > Homeric & Classical Greek : snake; serpent (Autentrieth, Op.cit, > s.v.); described by Homer as being of huge size, "coiled like a > snake, of blood-red or dark colour, shot with changeful hues, > dwelling in mountains, feeding on poisonous herbs, with three > heads" (Iliad 2.200-208; 11.40; 12.201, 208) . "It appears to have > been really the python, or boa". [LSJ, s.v.]. > Aristotle in HA 8.13.3 used the word to denote a large sea-fish of > some description : "the great weever" [LSJ]. > > Kind regards, > > Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 26 22:02:45 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:02:45 +1100 Subject: Precious stones in Dakota Bk of Revelation In-Reply-To: <47987141020000A600004596@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Anthony, Interesting topic. Have just checked Rigg's Dakota version of the BOOK OF REVELATIONS (St. John's Apocalypse), entitled : "Wayuotanin Tawa Kin" /Wayu'othaN'iN Tha'wa KiN/ [lit.=his making manifest/his manifestation], at 4:2; and 21:18 to 21, where, as you know, all those exotic names for the precious stones occur in a large cluster. Unsurprisingly enough, (one supposes), they either appear transliterated virtually unchanged from the original Greek, or almost --- (in the following instance, for example, the Ancient voiceless/voiced Greek liquid continuant 'rho/ro' is assimilated in sound to the Dakota voiceless uvular fricative, for some reason. Influence of French-speaking assistants/informants perhaps?) -- or else are rendered by vague-seeming or generalized expressions like inyan teh^ika /i'NyaN theh^i'ka/ 'precious stone(s)! e.g. REV 4: 3 ============= "And he that sat was to look upon like jasper and a sardine stone : and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald ." (KJV) [N.B. : <...> denotes word not in original, inserted for sake of clarity.] Tuwe akan iyotanke cin he iwanyankapi kin inyan (teh^ika), iyaspis qa sah^dinos iyececa; qa oiyotanke kin ihdukshan wihmunke wan hmihbeya yanka, smah^agdos (inyan) kin iyececa. [Here (...)-bracketed words refer to aforesaid insertions, but ARE in orig. Dakota text.] Orig. NT Greek words here are, transliterated respectively : iaspidi [Dat Sg. Fem.] < iaspis 'jasper'; sardioi [Dat.Sg.Neut.] As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items > as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The > names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien > to native speakers of > English as they would be to Lakota speakers. > > Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Jan 27 19:07:06 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=C3=BCting=22?=) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:07:06 +0100 Subject: "phute'okicu" and other new animals Message-ID: (Clive) > BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting tongue also, ?uta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ?utiet ; > (Collective) ?ut] is the usual word for fish. > Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. balienat, or balieniet. Clive, some 20 years back when in G?awdex (Gozo), I had been grappling with this very interesting language Malti for a couple of years; Maltese being the only "Arabic" I ever ventured to deal with, I was eager then to even filter out some news from the local newspapers. (I still own some yellowed copies, BTW.) Consulting my old sources (Kaptan Pawlu Bu?eja's "Kelmet il-Malti - Dizzjunarju Malti-Ingli? Ingli?-Malti and a grammar book by Joseph Aquilina) I wasn't able to get a definite answer to your "quite simple" question ;-) Obviously the manifold plural forms in Maltese are so obvious for native speakers - and students of English - that teacher Bu?eja didn't regard them as worth mentioning. So I've to dare a guess: the word for "whale" might be treated as a loan word (not being of Arabic descent rather than adopted from Sicilian or Italian la balena), and it - also - seems to be fem.. So I'd suggest baliena [IPA bali?:na] - balieni [IPA bali?:ni]. Having checked all the rules regarding "plural by suffixes" (a "broken plural" doesn't seem to be appropriate), this seems to be the most probable result - but who knows? :( My doubts regarding your ?balienat or **balieniet - the stress would've to move to the last syllable -> ?baliniet - derive from baliena 1) NOT being of Arabic origin, 2) maybe not being adapted to the semitic word- pattern of Maltese. Here (2) I might be wrong though. What do you mean? Kind regards (and apology for being far off-topic) Alfred _________________________________ ?aigmuaki?o (AWT) La?ota iyapi w?u?spe?iye http://www.fa-kuan.de/LAKSTRUCT.HTML -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbloom at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 28 00:28:14 2008 From: cbloom at ozemail.com.au (Clive Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:28:14 +1100 Subject: Interesting Sentence from E. A-O-H (& Maltese Cetaceans!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Alfred & other Siouanist friends, Since I seem to have caused this little digression in the first place, by quite provocatively (& incorrectly) speculating on that Maltese feminine plural, perhaps, by way of compromise, I might be allowed to 'atone' somewhat, by gently leading us back on-topic with a few observations on the structure & vocabulary of a most intriguing Lakhota sentence, from the passages quoted extensively here earlier this month, from Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Iyapi translation of Nolan Clark's "Brave Against the enemy"(1944), (with a little Maltese "whale-lore" appended by way of a footnote.)? Incidentally, my sentence also alludes to Bruce's earlier captivating topic of Lakhota words & expressions for FEELINGS/EMOTIONS. Here is the fascinating sentence in question [It occurs as the second sentence of the second Lakhota paragraph, (which begins : "Marie Heh^logeca....") in my post of Jan 7] : A) Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK TEXT [p.19] : Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. B) Ann NOLAN CLARK's original [p.18] : "She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager longing of the boy." [NOTES :] I will submit one interpretation, but naturally my mind is open to other viewpoints! (which is exactly why I am here:) ). That first 'kin' seems to be used to topicalize (focus) & nominalize/ sentence-embed(Ingham, Lakota, 12.2.2.) the first two words 'iteoyuze awichableze' [=What she perceived on their faces], in the very familiar manner of such sentences [Buech.Gr. p.230, #136, 2) a)] as : "wachin KIN he le e." [="this is what I want/what I want is this." -taku/takuku or some some such pronoun being understood there, one presumes.]. The immediately ensuing two hecha clauses, joined by conjunction 'na', beginning 'hignaku kin...hecha', and 'hokshila kin...hecha' appear to me to be PREDICATED of this topic, with 'ableze' appended anaphorically as a recapitulation, perhaps, of the embedded verb 'awichableze'. Thus I would translate more literally : "What she discerned on their facial features/from their facial expressions (iteoyuze), (was) that her husband was the kind of man (hecha) who experienced longing for things (wachantokpani), yet lacked all faith/confidence (wowachinye nica), and that, as for the boy (hokshila kin insh), his nature (hecha) was to be one of those (partitive 'kin') who become "squeaky-wheels" (waechinchinpika kin), when they set their hearts on something (wachantokpaninpi), - that much she saw clearly (ableze)." As regards that intriguing word 'waechinchinpika' (not in Riggs, or B- Md.), I had to guess at the meaning from the context, as well as being, of course, guided by Nolan Clark's English original. Also, B-Md's lovely word "waekichinchinke" glossed thus : "one who persists in asking; one who wants sthg. very badly, and often asks", based presumably on the same basic root : "chin", also sheds much semantic light, I believe. The animate plural -pi suffixes, on waechinchin(pi)ka & wachantokpani (pi), led me to realize that the final 'kin' before 'hecha ableze', in all likelihood, marked a Partitive construction with hecha. Also, one has often heard people endowed with such traits, characterized as "squeaky-wheels", hence that rendering. Kind regards to all, Clive. On 28/01/2008, at 6:07 AM, Alfred W. T?ting wrote: > (Clive) > > > BTW, Bruce, my Maltese friends tell me that , in their enchanting > tongue also, ?uta (f.sg.) [Two plurals (Determinate) ?utiet ; > > (Collective) ?ut] is the usual word for fish. > > > Their word for whale is baliena. Not sure of plural there, prob. > balienat, or balieniet. > > > > Clive, some 20 years back when in G?awdex (Gozo), I had been > grappling with this very interesting language Malti for a couple of > years; Maltese being the only "Arabic" I ever ventured to deal > with, I was eager then to even filter out some news from the local > newspapers. > (I still own some yellowed copies, BTW.) > Consulting my old sources (Kaptan Pawlu Bu?eja's "Kelmet il-Malti - > Dizzjunarju Malti-Ingli? Ingli?-Malti and a grammar book by Joseph > Aquilina) I wasn't able to get a definite answer to your "quite > simple" question ;-) Obviously the manifold plural forms in Maltese > are > so obvious for native speakers - and students of English - that > teacher Bu?eja didn't regard them as worth mentioning. > > So I've to dare a guess: the word for "whale" might be treated as a > loan word (not being of Arabic descent rather than adopted from > Sicilian or > Italian la balena), and it - also - seems to be fem.. So I'd > suggest baliena [IPA bali?:na] - balieni [IPA bali?:ni]. Having > checked all the rules > regarding "plural by suffixes" (a "broken plural" doesn't seem to > be appropriate), this seems to be the most probable result - but > who knows? :( > My doubts regarding your ?balienat or **balieniet - the stress > would've to move to the last syllable -> ?baliniet - derive from > baliena 1) NOT being > of Arabic origin, 2) maybe not being adapted to the semitic word- > pattern of Maltese. Here (2) I might be wrong though. What do you > mean? > > Kind regards (and apology for being far off-topic) > > Alfred : ?aigmuaki?o (AWT) Dear Alfred, You are absolutely correct, imho! Baliena is of course a LOAN word, very probably from Sicilian balena (f.sg.) (whale) and as such, most unlikely to take one of those native Maltese semitic plural formations, either by feminine plural suffix (-at/-iet), or Broken Plural. Further, since diphthong -ie- only occurs in stressed syllables (J.Aquilina, TYMaltese, 1965, p.28) writing a word balieniet would grossly violate a major orthographical rule of Maltese! Finally, since feminine words ending in -a in Sicilian regularly form their plurals in -i (unlike in Standard written Italiano) [Joseph E. Privitera ; "Beginner's Sicilian", Hippocrene Books, 1998, p.44], so that balena would have Sicilan plural baleni, I reckon that your suggestion there is spot on 'the money'! [See also Acquilina, op.cit., p.77, 1. (i).; Capt. Paul Buggeja, "Maltese-How To Read & Speak It", Il-Hajja Press, Malta, 1958, 1974, p.107] There are lots of similar feminine words of similar origins, such as : karta/karti 'paper'; bolla/bolli 'postage stamp'; kuccarina/ kuccarini 'teaspoon'; karozza/karozzi 'car', which confirm your conjecture. However, a notable exception is 'furketta' Pl. 'frieket' -perhaps it was more thoroughly semiticized, because 'borrowed' earlier? Mea culpa, Well done! Alles gute, Clive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 10:33:10 2008 From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:33:10 +0000 Subject: Precious stones in Dakota Bk of Revelation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Clive: Many thanks for this! Such passages are replete with loans in so many languages, and it's interesting to see Riggs et al transliterating Greek forms in order to provide equivalents. To be fair, it's no more than what English translators were doing for English! I don't have many dealings with Makcems, though a colleague does. But as to the Scousers who do live close by, may I refer you to the following: http://www.openhousepress.co.uk/catalog.htm It's just out and available. I had 6 years of Latin and 4 of Attic Greek; my Hebrew is scanty thougn the scriopt presnets no problems. (I've written about Judezmo and Yiddish in my time.) I know more Arabic than Hebrew but am a long, LONG way form being fluent in it. Is EAOH's work available anywhere? I'd known of its existence for some time - similar translations wree made into Navaho and, I believe, Hopi - but I haven't seen it. Best Anthony >>> Clive Bloomfield 01/26/08 10:02 pm >>> Anthony, Interesting topic. Have just checked Rigg's Dakota version of the BOOK OF REVELATIONS (St. John's Apocalypse), entitled : "Wayuotanin Tawa Kin" /Wayu'othaN'iN Tha'wa KiN/ [lit.=his making manifest/his manifestation], at 4:2; and 21:18 to 21, where, as you know, all those exotic names for the precious stones occur in a large cluster. Unsurprisingly enough, (one supposes), they either appear transliterated virtually unchanged from the original Greek, or almost --- (in the following instance, for example, the Ancient voiceless/voiced Greek liquid continuant 'rho/ro' is assimilated in sound to the Dakota voiceless uvular fricative, for some reason. Influence of French-speaking assistants/informants perhaps?) -- or else are rendered by vague-seeming or generalized expressions like inyan teh^ika /i'NyaN theh^i'ka/ 'precious stone(s)! e.g. REV 4: 3 ============= "And he that sat was to look upon like jasper and a sardine stone : and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald ." (KJV) [N.B. : <...> denotes word not in original, inserted for sake of clarity.] Tuwe akan iyotanke cin he iwanyankapi kin inyan (teh^ika), iyaspis qa sah^dinos iyececa; qa oiyotanke kin ihdukshan wihmunke wan hmihbeya yanka, smah^agdos (inyan) kin iyececa. [Here (...)-bracketed words refer to aforesaid insertions, but ARE in orig. Dakota text.] Orig. NT Greek words here are, transliterated respectively : iaspidi [Dat Sg. Fem.] < iaspis 'jasper'; sardioi [Dat.Sg.Neut.] As a matter of interest, what does the Lakota NT do with such items > as the lists of precious stones in the Book of Revelations? The > names and entities (chrysoprase, for instance) are mostly as alien > to native speakers of > English as they would be to Lakota speakers. > > Anthony ----------------------------------------------------- This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill University or associated companies. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete it and all copies of it. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. The message content of in-coming emails is automatically scanned to identify Spam and viruses otherwise Edge Hill University do not actively monitor content. However, sometimes it will be necessary for Edge Hill University to access business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus free. However, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Edge Hill University for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ----------------------------------------------------- From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Jan 29 20:22:06 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:22:06 +0100 Subject: Interesting Sentence from E. A-O-H (& Maltese Cetaceans!) In-Reply-To: <300E9D0D-7B27-4714-88D4-9C2F3B126637@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Am 28.01.2008 um 01:28 schrieb Clive Bloomfield: > A) Emil AFRAID-OF-HAWK TEXT [p.19] : > > Iteoyuze awichableze kin hingnaku kin wachantokpani tkha wowachinye > nica wicasha kin hecha, na hoksila kin insh waechinchinpika > wachantokpanipi kin hecha ableze. > > B) Ann NOLAN CLARK's original [p.18] : > > "She read in their faces the hopeless longing of the man, the eager > longing of the boy." > > (...) > As regards that intriguing word 'waechinchinpika' (not in Riggs, or > B-Md.), I had to guess at the meaning from the context, as well as > being, of course, guided by Nolan Clark's English original. > Also, B-Md's lovely word "waekichinchinke" glossed thus : "one who > persists in asking; one who wants sthg. very badly, and often asks", > based presumably on the same basic root : "chin", also sheds much > semantic light, I believe. > The animate plural -pi suffixes, on waechinchin(pi)ka & > wachantokpani(pi), led me to realize that the final 'kin' before > 'hecha ableze', in all likelihood, marked a Partitive construction > with hecha. > Also, one has often heard people endowed with such traits, > characterized as "squeaky-wheels", hence that rendering. Dear Clive, I like your interpretation (and, of course, the text!). What's really fascinating for me is by what economical means of grammar the most sophisticated sentences can be expressed in iyapi! (Okay, this original one doesn't seem to be too complex.) Also, I not only learnt a new nice word (waekicincinke - there are many to be found in Toka wan ..., though) but also those squeaky- wheels (getting the grease) - N?rgler, Meckerer, Nervens?ge, Quengler etc. were new to me :) Thanks! Alfred _______________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: