From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu May 1 06:44:42 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:44:42 +0200 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Hello, this is an interesting topic here and worth going into it. As already mentioned by others, the first name's spelling (Frida instead of Frieda) might suggest Eastern European descent (Cyrillic, Yiddish-Hebrew transliteration - or maybe also Hungarian, Romanian etc. spelling convention). I'd go for Jewish ancestry. As a young prosecutor dealing with NS-crimes back in the seventies one of our main sources had been "(Bad) Arolsen" i.e. that ITS Internationaler Suchdienst (International Tracing Service). Only recently, ITS Arolsen IS NOW OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that historians or scholars like you are allowed to do researches there. Here is a link to their website: http://www.its-arolsen.org/english/ and an article about the archive: http://www.focus.de/panorama/diverses/holocaust-archiv-weltgroesstes-holocaust-archiv-in-bad-arolsen-eroeffnet_aid_298570.html Best regards Alfred _______________ Alfred W. Tüting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 1 16:48:46 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:48:46 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Alfred, Thanks so much for the information. One of these days we'll get to the bottom of this mystery. I also suppose it's possible that the Columbia University Anthropology program might have records with at least a home address for Hahn. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of "Alfred W. Tüting" Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 1:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Frida Hahn Hello, this is an interesting topic here and worth going into it. As already mentioned by others, the first name's spelling (Frida instead of Frieda) might suggest Eastern European descent (Cyrillic, Yiddish-Hebrew transliteration - or maybe also Hungarian, Romanian etc. spelling convention). I'd go for Jewish ancestry. As a young prosecutor dealing with NS-crimes back in the seventies one of our main sources had been "(Bad) Arolsen" i.e. that ITS Internationaler Suchdienst (International Tracing Service). Only recently, ITS Arolsen IS NOW OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that historians or scholars like you are allowed to do researches there. Here is a link to their website: http://www.its-arolsen.org/english/ and an article about the archive: http://www.focus.de/panorama/diverses/holocaust-archiv-weltgroesstes-holocaust-archiv-in-bad-arolsen-eroeffnet_aid_298570.html Best regards Alfred _______________ Alfred W. Tüting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 1 17:12:31 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:12:31 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been recognized for their contributions to the war effort. I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, aren't getting any younger. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: RE: Code talkers. I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob From tmleonard at cox.net Thu May 1 17:58:37 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:58:37 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FYI - Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very proud. Very proud./" I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. Some further info here: http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride > Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I > heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several > instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers > from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, > platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called > upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in > close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have > been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers > who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been > recognized for their contributions to the war effort. > > I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since > that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred > to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I > wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston > Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, > aren't getting any younger. > > -Justin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM > Subject: RE: Code talkers. > > > I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several > have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the > American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic > codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general > staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the > best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had > painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they > would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by > native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that > with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I > don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of > anything to do with its success as a code. > > On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with > different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be > decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the > participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, > however belatedly. > > The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think > someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in > any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely > a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with > roots in the Native American community or a linguist? > > Bob > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vstabler at esu1.org Thu May 1 19:58:35 2008 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:58:35 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: <481A04CD.8020302@cox.net> Message-ID: Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. Vida Tom Leonard wrote: > FYI - > > Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who > used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in > Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. > > "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my > native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country > asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very > proud. Very proud./" > > I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, > and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It > was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. > > Some further info here: > http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker > > > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >> >> >> >> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >> >> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >> aren't getting any younger. >> >> -Justin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >> >> >> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >> anything to do with its success as a code. >> >> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >> however belatedly. >> >> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 4 23:53:00 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:00 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Stabler, If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. Best, Bob R. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. Vida Tom Leonard wrote: > FYI - > > Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who > used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in > Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. > > "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my > native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country > asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very > proud. Very proud./" > > I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, > and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It > was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. > > Some further info here: > http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker > > > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >> >> >> >> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >> >> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >> aren't getting any younger. >> >> -Justin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >> >> >> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >> anything to do with its success as a code. >> >> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >> however belatedly. >> >> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 5 14:40:32 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:40:32 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer Message-ID: Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From vstabler at esu1.org Mon May 5 15:48:38 2008 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:48:38 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are kind. My address is Vida Stabler, Umo^n ho^n Nation Public Schoool, Umo^n ho^n Language & Cultural Center, Box 280, Macy, Nebraska 68039 Wibthaho^n , VSS Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Dear Mrs. Stabler, > > If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. > > Best, > > Bob R. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler > Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. > Vida > > Tom Leonard wrote: > >> FYI - >> >> Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who >> used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in >> Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. >> >> "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my >> native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country >> asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very >> proud. Very proud./" >> >> I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, >> and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It >> was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. >> >> Some further info here: >> http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker >> >> >> >> Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> >>> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >>> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> >>> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >>> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >>> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >>> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >>> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >>> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >>> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >>> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >>> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >>> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >>> >>> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >>> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >>> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >>> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >>> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >>> aren't getting any younger. >>> >>> -Justin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >>> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >>> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >>> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >>> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >>> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >>> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >>> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >>> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >>> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >>> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >>> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >>> anything to do with its success as a code. >>> >>> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >>> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >>> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >>> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >>> however belatedly. >>> >>> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >>> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >>> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >>> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >>> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon May 5 16:18:43 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:18:43 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue May 6 18:04:30 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:04:30 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: Since it was me who complained about airfare, I thought I'd give a more upbeat update. The fares that had mysteriously gone through the roof a week or so ago have now just as mysteriously dropped, and there are now quite reasonable flights available to all 3 airports. (Less than half the price of last week - go figure.) I'll be arriving in Springfield about 2:00 on Thursday and will have a rental car - in case anyone needs a ride. Many thanks to the generous folks who offered rides from the west. Much appreciated even though now unneeded. On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) Catherine >>> "Jill Greer" 04/28/08 11:50 AM >>> Hi, all, Actually, I'm sorry to say that it will entail renting a car from any of the airports, unless one wants to brave a Greyhound type bus. The Fayetteville airport is a little over an hour from Joplin, Springfield's airport is slightly less (and does not require any complicated navigation - just get on I-44 west, and go straight to Joplin which is about 45-50 minutes without stopping). Tulsa is about one hour and 20 minutes from Joplin, and the best road is the Will Rogers Turnpike (the same highway as I-44, but with tolls added on.) I do apologize for the costs - I warned folks that there is no cheap way to get here by air, and of course driving isn't cheap anymore either. If there were enough people coming in to the same airport at the same time, perhaps I could arrange a university van as a shuttle, for a small fee per person. That also raises the issue of registration costs. The only cost to me will be any food that we provide, so I was hoping to keep it minimal, like $10-12 per person? Is that in line with past years??? From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Tue May 6 19:15:33 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:15:33 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <481EED2C.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 6 20:10:46 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:10:46 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: > On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) That's all just fine with me. Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue May 6 20:42:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:42:39 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:55:31 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:55:31 -0700 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The fee sounds fine to me too. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) That's all just fine with me. Bob --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed May 7 01:27:01 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:27:01 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48207C8A.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed May 7 12:17:30 2008 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:17:30 -0400 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48207C8A.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Quoting Jill Greer : > They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any > topic related to the languages. 20 minutes? Customarily, we've had 30 or even 40 - One of the things I have always appreciated about this conference is the time allowed for fuller presentation and meaningful discussion. Could we make a decision about this before the abstract deadline, please? Linda From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed May 7 14:52:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:52:39 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimm, I'm sorry if that was confusing - let me clarify, or at least try! I am required by my contract to teach 4 courses each fall and spring as my full time load. As I mentioned, I don't know if MSSU would approve it, but bigger research universities do it frequently. In order for me to only teach say 3 courses, and use that "free" time from course #4 as dedicated to writing on the grammar instead, NSF would be asked to pay that portion of my salary to MSSU, which would allow them to hire an adjunct for that course that I would be "released" from teaching. So essentially MSSU still pays my normal salary to me from their budget as usual, but MSSU gets reimbursed from your NSF grant for allowing me to only teach 3 classes, and writing at the same time. I don't have the exact # available right now, but I believe it is about $1800/ 3 hour course for the current adjunct pay here. (It hasn't gone up since I was an adjunct here 10 years ago!!!) I don't get any additional money from the grant, but I do have more time to do the work that way. We already have students enrolled in the fall under my name in the course schedule, and considering that we are dealing with three different institutions, I wouldn't want to attempt to get them all in sync for the fall 08 term anyway. But I thought I would pass along the idea, so you would have time to think about it, and consider if it is possible, or desirable. However, if that release $ is more than is alloted for that portion, let me know, and we will still work it out, never fear! As I said before, I had been away from bigger institutions for a while, and a colleague reminded me that such things are common there, so why not throw the idea out for consideration. Don't hesitate to be frank, Jimm - I won't be offended! Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 8:27 PM >>> Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed May 7 15:01:27 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:01:27 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <20080507081730.cmrfqcrngg80o0o0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Linda, I am sorry if that time estimate seems too brief - Please don't assume that it is written in stone, it was just a rough number, allowing about 30 minutes total per person, and not being a stickler for the stopwatch. Certainly since there is only one session going on, there is NO need to rush people or cut people off as happens at bigger conferences. (I do hate that!) If you need more time for a paper, then just note that in your abstract, and I can allow for that. If most folks would prefer 30 minutes, with another 10 for discussion, then I will adjust the program accordingly. I am also looking forward to a friendly and open conversations on the topics at hand, and I certainly didn't mean to imply there was a change. I have not been able to attend more than twice in the past summers, so any input or ideas from the core crowd is more than welcome. Thanks for bringing that up. Anyone else having thoughts on time is welcome to chime in! Sincerely, Jill >>> "Cumberland, Linda" 5/7/2008 7:17 AM >>> Quoting Jill Greer : > They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any > topic related to the languages. 20 minutes? Customarily, we've had 30 or even 40 - One of the things I have always appreciated about this conference is the time allowed for fuller presentation and meaningful discussion. Could we make a decision about this before the abstract deadline, please? Linda From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed May 7 23:14:38 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:14:38 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48217C08.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: Thank you for your clarification. It just happens that this morning we held a meeting in White Cloud, KS on the budget for this 2nd year. We did put aside some monies for consultant services during this forthcoming year (April(08)-March 09). In as much as we did not use any consultant funds during the prior year, we will be able to cover the amount suggested. I believe that it is safe to say that you may contact your university staff with the thought for their consideration, and then you can get back with me. The monies paid would not be directly from NSF, but it would be by invoice, sent to me to sign, then to the Project Director and then to the Tribe for a direct payment to (You or Whoever). Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Jimm, I'm sorry if that was confusing - let me clarify, or at least try! I am required by my contract to teach 4 courses each fall and spring as my full time load. As I mentioned, I don't know if MSSU would approve it, but bigger research universities do it frequently. In order for me to only teach say 3 courses, and use that "free" time from course #4 as dedicated to writing on the grammar instead, NSF would be asked to pay that portion of my salary to MSSU, which would allow them to hire an adjunct for that course that I would be "released" from teaching. So essentially MSSU still pays my normal salary to me from their budget as usual, but MSSU gets reimbursed from your NSF grant for allowing me to only teach 3 classes, and writing at the same time. I don't have the exact # available right now, but I believe it is about $1800/ 3 hour course for the current adjunct pay here. (It hasn't gone up since I was an adjunct here 10 years ago!!!) I don't get any additional money from the grant, but I do have more time to do the work that way. We already have students enrolled in the fall under my name in the course schedule, and considering that we are dealing with three different institutions, I wouldn't want to attempt to get them all in sync for the fall 08 term anyway. But I thought I would pass along the idea, so you would have time to think about it, and consider if it is possible, or desirable. However, if that release $ is more than is alloted for that portion, let me know, and we will still work it out, never fear! As I said before, I had been away from bigger institutions for a while, and a colleague reminded me that such things are common there, so why not throw the idea out for consideration. Don't hesitate to be frank, Jimm - I won't be offended! Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 8:27 PM >>> Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu May 8 16:25:25 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:25:25 -0500 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching Message-ID: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri May 9 12:14:29 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:14:29 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization George: I believe that there is value in a "Back of the Book" glossary. Often a student does not wish to wade through the length of typical dictionary that provides them more information than they wish at the moment. Electronic dictionaries are available when one is sitting before the computer, and not off to the side in a reading chair. For the very small child in an immersion setting, the glossary is of little or no value, but indeed it becomes a tool for the older student at any learning level. The value of an immediate reader glossary, is that it gives one an immediate answer to "What does this word mean". We just had this discussion this week at the Tribal Office here in Kansas. And further, it was discussed as to how to present that glossary. For Native American Languages, the verb complex is the most important and complex element of a sentence unlike English which allows each element of the sentence and words that enhance the main verb to be presented independently. Certainly a reader can be written in the most simplest format, which involves no prefixes, suffixes, infixes, conjugations, nor additional grammatical elements to be added on to the verb in a Native American sentence. In this case, the reader would only be able to speak in the 3rd person singular, namely: He/ she/ it. In other words, the verb is stripped to its core meaning, which even then, may or may not be a bare root meaning separate from a prefix of instrumentality, that is, a prefix that indicates how an action (of the root word) is performed or caused (by hand, foot, machine, heat, an instrument, etc.). When other voices are introduced, namely -- I, you, we, they and dual or plural elements -- the verb complex begins to build via prefixes and suffixes which have no meaning when detached apart from the verb. In addition, direct and indirect discourse, prepositional elements, probability and more can all factor in. And to this end, the literal translation provided in a more layman's terms rather than a professional linguistic rendition seems to be the most helpful to the language student. I will not have time to review your material, as at the moment I am full time on the providing a revision of our Baxoje Jiwere Dictionary into an unabridged edition, as well as providing the translation of a sixty minute Film. It is for the sake of time, that I have not supplied examples of my discussion above. However, I have written today to support your effort and work, which in my opinion has value and probable applications for other Native American Language communities and even for our work here, when I am able to focus fully on the literature and teaching materials phase. Further, be aware that I did not note any flaws with your English below, as there was nothing unique to suggest that you are of an ESL student background. Sincerely, Jimm Goodtracks Baxoje Jiwere Language Project Lawrence, Kansas ----- Original Message ----- From: kawaguy32 To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization electronic process of raw text of a given book into electronic book with an indexed glossary built-in. Amazon.com folks who sell books use "glossarized" for some of their selling printed books. I a long experienced programmer (over 40 years, now retired.) developed a relatively sized program that is able to "pluck" dictionary definitions from the net for each word in a given book and store them on a local system such as a personal computer. That is the first stage of the said process. The next stage is then to "glossarize" those words for the given book. The definitions stored are in HTML format for previewing purpose. I developed a rather small program that is able to lookup those definitions with an aid of word list from which a user is able to select a word for the definition. It is just a preview program before going into glossized process. The second stage is not yet developed but I am about to commence. I am wondering if there is such software available on market similar to mine. I got the concept of "glossarizing" process not long ago so that I could enjoy reading ebooks with glossary built-in. I know there are already on market electronic dictionaries for ebook readers but they are not so good and sometimes too many definitions for the same word, somewhat distracts the reader from the continuious thought while reading. The "glossarized" electronic books would be an ideal for children, not only those but also ESL readers like myself. Thank you. Geo Massar Recent Activity a.. 7New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Groups Join a program to help you find balance in your life. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri May 9 15:04:09 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:04:09 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:14 AM Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization George: I believe that there is value in a "Back of the Book" glossary. Often a student does not wish to wade through the length of typical dictionary that provides them more information than they wish at the moment. Electronic dictionaries are available when one is sitting before the computer, and not off to the side in a reading chair. For the very small child in an immersion setting, the glossary is of little or no value, but indeed it becomes a tool for the older student at any learning level. The value of an immediate reader glossary, is that it gives one an immediate answer to "What does this word mean". We just had this discussion this week at the Tribal Office here in Kansas. And further, it was discussed as to how to present that glossary. For Native American Languages, the verb complex is the most important and complex element of a sentence unlike English which allows each element of the sentence and words that enhance the main verb to be presented independently. Certainly a reader can be written in the most simplest format, which involves no prefixes, suffixes, infixes, conjugations, nor additional grammatical elements to be added on to the verb in a Native American sentence. In this case, the reader would only be able to speak in the 3rd person singular, namely: He/ she/ it. In other words, the verb is stripped to its core meaning, which even then, may or may not be a bare root meaning separate from a prefix of instrumentality, that is, a prefix that indicates how an action (of the root word) is performed or caused (by hand, foot, machine, heat, an instrument, etc.). When other voices are introduced, namely -- I, you, we, they and dual or plural elements -- the verb complex begins to build via prefixes and suffixes which have no meaning when detached apart from the verb. In addition, direct and indirect discourse, prepositional elements, probability and more can all factor in. And to this end, the literal translation provided in a more layman's terms rather than a professional linguistic rendition seems to be the most helpful to the language student. I will not have time to review your material, as at the moment I am full time on the providing a revision of our Baxoje Jiwere Dictionary into an unabridged edition, as well as providing the translation of a sixty minute Film. It is for the sake of time, that I have not supplied examples of my discussion above. However, I have written today to support your effort and work, which in my opinion has value and probable applications for other Native American Language communities and even for our work here, when I am able to focus fully on the literature and teaching materials phase. Further, be aware that I did not note any flaws with your English below, as there was nothing unique to suggest that you are of an ESL student background. Sincerely, Jimm Goodtracks Baxoje Jiwere Language Project Lawrence, Kansas ----- Original Message ----- From: kawaguy32 To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization electronic process of raw text of a given book into electronic book with an indexed glossary built-in. Amazon.com folks who sell books use "glossarized" for some of their selling printed books. I a long experienced programmer (over 40 years, now retired.) developed a relatively sized program that is able to "pluck" dictionary definitions from the net for each word in a given book and store them on a local system such as a personal computer. That is the first stage of the said process. The next stage is then to "glossarize" those words for the given book. The definitions stored are in HTML format for previewing purpose. I developed a rather small program that is able to lookup those definitions with an aid of word list from which a user is able to select a word for the definition. It is just a preview program before going into glossized process. The second stage is not yet developed but I am about to commence. I am wondering if there is such software available on market similar to mine. I got the concept of "glossarizing" process not long ago so that I could enjoy reading ebooks with glossary built-in. I know there are already on market electronic dictionaries for ebook readers but they are not so good and sometimes too many definitions for the same word, somewhat distracts the reader from the continuious thought while reading. The "glossarized" electronic books would be an ideal for children, not only those but also ESL readers like myself. Thank you. Geo Massar Recent Activity a.. 7New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Groups Join a program to help you find balance in your life. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Mon May 12 16:52:54 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:52:54 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] New Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan Ullrich To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:10 AM Subject: [Lexicog] New Lakota Dictionary Dear lexicographers I am happy to announce that the New Lakota Dictionary has been finished and is now being printed. Copies of the dictionary will be available after July 15 and sample pages can be seen at this address: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf The dictionary can be ordered at www.lakhota.org or at http://stores.languagepress.com/Detail.bok?no=35 The dictionary was developed using the Linguist's Toolbox (SIL) and is the result of twenty years of work. There are 20,000 Lakota-English entries and 11,000 English-Lakota entries, and over 40,000 example sentences, usage notes and collocations. The dictionary marks the 3,000 most important words and each entry provides references to the forms of the word in Dakota dialects. I wish to thank the SIL programmers for the Linguist's Toolbox as well as to members of the lexicography list for useful replies to questions I posted during the past few years and for various hints during numerous discussions. Best regards Jan Ullrich Lakota Language Consortium __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 9New Members b.. 1New Links Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Special K Group on Yahoo! Groups Join the challenge and lose weight. Cat Groups on Yahoo! Groups Share pictures & stories about cats. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 17:34:18 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:34:18 -0700 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching In-Reply-To: <4822E33F.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Hi Jill, Here is my semi-abstract for the paper I plan to present. I really have not begun researching for this paper yet, so I can probably have a fuller abstract by June if you need it. In the meantime, I hope this will suffice: Some Amerindian languages use particles to indicate past, future, conditional, or any other situations contrary to fact or present reality. This is often referred to as "irrealis." This paper explores the use of "hi" as an irrealis particle in Biloxi. Thanks Jill. Dave Jill Greer wrote: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon May 12 18:25:11 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:25:11 -0500 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching In-Reply-To: <206411.97322.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Dave, That will be fine for now (actually, as far as I am concerned, it is fine for the program too - we only have one session, and a small crowd, so I can't imagine anyone needing more details until they hear the actual presentation! It's not like they are going to choose between it and another simultaneous talk, right?) I'm glad to know you are coming. It should be fun. By the way, I need to remind people to make their reservations for the conference rate this week for sure, if they haven't already. The hotel wants me to give them a number by Friday so they can release any extra rooms from the reserved block... Please let me know if you need any more information about getting to town, etc. Best, Jill >>> David Kaufman 5/12/2008 12:34 PM >>> Hi Jill, Here is my semi-abstract for the paper I plan to present. I really have not begun researching for this paper yet, so I can probably have a fuller abstract by June if you need it. In the meantime, I hope this will suffice: Some Amerindian languages use particles to indicate past, future, conditional, or any other situations contrary to fact or present reality. This is often referred to as "irrealis." This paper explores the use of "hi" as an irrealis particle in Biloxi. Thanks Jill. Dave Jill Greer wrote: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From jfu at centrum.cz Mon May 12 19:16:20 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:16:20 +0200 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 12 22:48:48 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:48:48 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From carudin1 at wsc.edu Mon May 12 22:59:16 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:59:16 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Me too (terrific, looking forward, etc!) Perhaps we'll get a chance to look at some samples of this together at the roundtable? Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 05/12/08 5:48 PM >>> Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From jfu at centrum.cz Tue May 13 08:44:28 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:44:28 +0200 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I am happy you like the sample pages and hope that you will find the entire dictionary useful. > Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched > by machine, or is it to be printed only? The dictionary is currently available only in printed form. An electronic version is going to be our next project. We are planning to record all of the headwords and perhaps all example sentences, and include the audio on the CD. We already have several native speakers interested in working on this project. For the electronic version, however, we have to solve many issues of parsing Lakota, because we would like to enable the users to search for any form of a word, not just for its lemma. Creating such parser will be the more difficult part of the project. But not less exciting. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:49 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 13 14:17:57 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:17:57 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: It looks really authoritative. By CD I was only thinking about doing lexical searches using the computer, not so much being able to retrieve the pronunciation, etc. But a fully functional "talking dictionary" would really be useful to speakers and potential speakers. Good luck with the project. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 5/13/2008 3:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob, I am happy you like the sample pages and hope that you will find the entire dictionary useful. > Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched > by machine, or is it to be printed only? The dictionary is currently available only in printed form. An electronic version is going to be our next project. We are planning to record all of the headwords and perhaps all example sentences, and include the audio on the CD. We already have several native speakers interested in working on this project. For the electronic version, however, we have to solve many issues of parsing Lakota, because we would like to enable the users to search for any form of a word, not just for its lemma. Creating such parser will be the more difficult part of the project. But not less exciting. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:49 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri May 16 19:54:47 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:54:47 -0500 Subject: Siouan / Caddoan Conference hotel Message-ID: Hi, all, Just a brief correction - I have been urging folks to quickly make their reservations for the conference , but after speaking with the Baymont manager today, she said that she will hold that block of rooms for us until June 7th, so that gives a few of you more breathing room to get your funding requests through the wheels of bureaucracy in time. I apologize for the mistake. I hope that everyone remembers to tell them it is for the Siouan conference, or else they may not be getting the right rate. Anyone else who is planning to attend but not present a paper, I would appreciate hearing from you also in the next week or so... It's looking like a great list of events - thank you all for getting things in to Catherine Rudin and me! Best, Jill Jill D. Greer Assistant Professor Social Science Department MSSU Joplin, MO 64801 From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 26 18:22:07 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 13:22:07 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Stabler, I haven't forgotten you. I keep finding things in the texts that need to be "fixed". I've done about the correcting that I'm ambitious enough to do, so I'll try to get you a CD of the texts out in the next few days. Best wishes, Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler Sent: Mon 5/5/2008 10:48 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. You are kind. My address is Vida Stabler, Umo^n ho^n Nation Public Schoool, Umo^n ho^n Language & Cultural Center, Box 280, Macy, Nebraska 68039 Wibthaho^n , VSS Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Dear Mrs. Stabler, > > If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. > > Best, > > Bob R. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler > Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. > Vida > > Tom Leonard wrote: > >> FYI - >> >> Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who >> used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in >> Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. >> >> "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my >> native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country >> asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very >> proud. Very proud./" >> >> I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, >> and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It >> was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. >> >> Some further info here: >> http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker >> >> >> >> Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> >>> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >>> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> >>> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >>> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >>> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >>> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >>> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >>> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >>> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >>> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >>> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >>> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >>> >>> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >>> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >>> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >>> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >>> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >>> aren't getting any younger. >>> >>> -Justin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >>> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >>> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >>> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >>> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >>> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >>> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >>> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >>> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >>> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >>> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >>> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >>> anything to do with its success as a code. >>> >>> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >>> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >>> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >>> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >>> however belatedly. >>> >>> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >>> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >>> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >>> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >>> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > From MARINO at skyway.usask.ca Mon May 26 18:24:29 2008 From: MARINO at skyway.usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:24:29 -0600 Subject: My New Address Message-ID: Hello, Your message has been automatically forwarded to my new address which is: mary.marino at usask.ca (replace at with the @ symbol) At your earliest convenience, please update your addressbook/contacts list to reflect my new email address. Note: You will continue to receive this message if you continue to send email to my old account. Thanks, - From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 29 14:42:08 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:42:08 -0500 Subject: FW: IOWAY screening events in Topeka and Lincoln Message-ID: Award-winning "Lost Nation: The Ioway" film to be featured in special screening events in Topeka, Kansas and Lincoln, Nebraska DETAILS: Topeka, Kansas Event: The movie event, sponsored by the Kansas Humanities Council, will take place Sunday, June 1 at 3:00 p.m. at the Kansas State Historical Society, 6425 SW 6th Avenue, Topeka, Kansas. The program is free to the public and includes the film followed by Q&A with the film producers Kelly and Tammy Rundle, Ioway Tribal Member and artist Reuben IronHorse-Kent, and Baxoje-Jiwere linguist Jimm Goodtracks. Lincoln, Nebraska Event: The movie event, sponsored by the Nebraska Humanities Council, will take place at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 at the Mary Riepma Ross Media Arts Center, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 313 N. 13th Street, Lincoln, NE 68588. This special Nebraska Humanities Council program is free to the public, and includes the film screening followed by Q&A with the film producers and other film participants. "Lost Nation: The Ioway" was funded in part by the Nebraska Humanities Council, the Kansas Humanities Council, Humanities Iowa, the Oklahoma Humanities, Silos and Smokestacks National Heritage Area, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. -30- From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Thu May 1 06:44:42 2008 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:44:42 +0200 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Hello, this is an interesting topic here and worth going into it. As already mentioned by others, the first name's spelling (Frida instead of Frieda) might suggest Eastern European descent (Cyrillic, Yiddish-Hebrew transliteration - or maybe also Hungarian, Romanian etc. spelling convention). I'd go for Jewish ancestry. As a young prosecutor dealing with NS-crimes back in the seventies one of our main sources had been "(Bad) Arolsen" i.e. that ITS Internationaler Suchdienst (International Tracing Service). Only recently, ITS Arolsen IS NOW OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that historians or scholars like you are allowed to do researches there. Here is a link to their website: http://www.its-arolsen.org/english/ and an article about the archive: http://www.focus.de/panorama/diverses/holocaust-archiv-weltgroesstes-holocaust-archiv-in-bad-arolsen-eroeffnet_aid_298570.html Best regards Alfred _______________ Alfred W. T?ting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 1 16:48:46 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:48:46 -0500 Subject: Frida Hahn Message-ID: Alfred, Thanks so much for the information. One of these days we'll get to the bottom of this mystery. I also suppose it's possible that the Columbia University Anthropology program might have records with at least a home address for Hahn. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of "Alfred W. T?ting" Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 1:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Frida Hahn Hello, this is an interesting topic here and worth going into it. As already mentioned by others, the first name's spelling (Frida instead of Frieda) might suggest Eastern European descent (Cyrillic, Yiddish-Hebrew transliteration - or maybe also Hungarian, Romanian etc. spelling convention). I'd go for Jewish ancestry. As a young prosecutor dealing with NS-crimes back in the seventies one of our main sources had been "(Bad) Arolsen" i.e. that ITS Internationaler Suchdienst (International Tracing Service). Only recently, ITS Arolsen IS NOW OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that historians or scholars like you are allowed to do researches there. Here is a link to their website: http://www.its-arolsen.org/english/ and an article about the archive: http://www.focus.de/panorama/diverses/holocaust-archiv-weltgroesstes-holocaust-archiv-in-bad-arolsen-eroeffnet_aid_298570.html Best regards Alfred _______________ Alfred W. T?ting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 1 17:12:31 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:12:31 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been recognized for their contributions to the war effort. I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, aren't getting any younger. -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: RE: Code talkers. I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of anything to do with its success as a code. On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, however belatedly. The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with roots in the Native American community or a linguist? Bob From tmleonard at cox.net Thu May 1 17:58:37 2008 From: tmleonard at cox.net (Tom Leonard) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:58:37 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FYI - Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very proud. Very proud./" I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. Some further info here: http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). > > Bob > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride > Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I > heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several > instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers > from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, > platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called > upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in > close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have > been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers > who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been > recognized for their contributions to the war effort. > > I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since > that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred > to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I > wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston > Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, > aren't getting any younger. > > -Justin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM > Subject: RE: Code talkers. > > > I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several > have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the > American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic > codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general > staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the > best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had > painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they > would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by > native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that > with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I > don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of > anything to do with its success as a code. > > On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with > different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be > decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the > participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, > however belatedly. > > The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think > someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in > any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely > a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with > roots in the Native American community or a linguist? > > Bob > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vstabler at esu1.org Thu May 1 19:58:35 2008 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:58:35 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: <481A04CD.8020302@cox.net> Message-ID: Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. Vida Tom Leonard wrote: > FYI - > > Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who > used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in > Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. > > "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my > native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country > asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very > proud. Very proud./" > > I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, > and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It > was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. > > Some further info here: > http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker > > > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >> >> >> >> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >> >> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >> aren't getting any younger. >> >> -Justin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >> >> >> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >> anything to do with its success as a code. >> >> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >> however belatedly. >> >> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> From rankin at ku.edu Sun May 4 23:53:00 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:53:00 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Stabler, If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. Best, Bob R. ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. Vida Tom Leonard wrote: > FYI - > > Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who > used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in > Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. > > "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my > native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country > asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very > proud. Very proud./" > > I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, > and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It > was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. > > Some further info here: > http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker > > > > Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >> >> >> >> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >> >> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >> aren't getting any younger. >> >> -Justin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >> >> >> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >> anything to do with its success as a code. >> >> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >> however belatedly. >> >> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 5 14:40:32 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:40:32 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer Message-ID: Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From vstabler at esu1.org Mon May 5 15:48:38 2008 From: vstabler at esu1.org (Vida Stabler) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:48:38 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You are kind. My address is Vida Stabler, Umo^n ho^n Nation Public Schoool, Umo^n ho^n Language & Cultural Center, Box 280, Macy, Nebraska 68039 Wibthaho^n , VSS Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Dear Mrs. Stabler, > > If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. > > Best, > > Bob R. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler > Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. > Vida > > Tom Leonard wrote: > >> FYI - >> >> Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who >> used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in >> Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. >> >> "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my >> native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country >> asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very >> proud. Very proud./" >> >> I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, >> and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It >> was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. >> >> Some further info here: >> http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker >> >> >> >> Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> >>> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >>> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> >>> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >>> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >>> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >>> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >>> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >>> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >>> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >>> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >>> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >>> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >>> >>> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >>> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >>> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >>> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >>> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >>> aren't getting any younger. >>> >>> -Justin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >>> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >>> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >>> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >>> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >>> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >>> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >>> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >>> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >>> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >>> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >>> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >>> anything to do with its success as a code. >>> >>> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >>> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >>> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >>> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >>> however belatedly. >>> >>> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >>> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >>> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >>> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >>> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon May 5 16:18:43 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:18:43 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue May 6 18:04:30 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:04:30 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: Since it was me who complained about airfare, I thought I'd give a more upbeat update. The fares that had mysteriously gone through the roof a week or so ago have now just as mysteriously dropped, and there are now quite reasonable flights available to all 3 airports. (Less than half the price of last week - go figure.) I'll be arriving in Springfield about 2:00 on Thursday and will have a rental car - in case anyone needs a ride. Many thanks to the generous folks who offered rides from the west. Much appreciated even though now unneeded. On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) Catherine >>> "Jill Greer" 04/28/08 11:50 AM >>> Hi, all, Actually, I'm sorry to say that it will entail renting a car from any of the airports, unless one wants to brave a Greyhound type bus. The Fayetteville airport is a little over an hour from Joplin, Springfield's airport is slightly less (and does not require any complicated navigation - just get on I-44 west, and go straight to Joplin which is about 45-50 minutes without stopping). Tulsa is about one hour and 20 minutes from Joplin, and the best road is the Will Rogers Turnpike (the same highway as I-44, but with tolls added on.) I do apologize for the costs - I warned folks that there is no cheap way to get here by air, and of course driving isn't cheap anymore either. If there were enough people coming in to the same airport at the same time, perhaps I could arrange a university van as a shuttle, for a small fee per person. That also raises the issue of registration costs. The only cost to me will be any food that we provide, so I was hoping to keep it minimal, like $10-12 per person? Is that in line with past years??? From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Tue May 6 19:15:33 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:15:33 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <481EED2C.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 6 20:10:46 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:10:46 -0500 Subject: travel to conference Message-ID: > On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) That's all just fine with me. Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue May 6 20:42:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:42:39 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:55:31 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:55:31 -0700 Subject: travel to conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The fee sounds fine to me too. Dave "Rankin, Robert L" wrote: > On another topic, I don't think anyone's responded regarding the conference fee that Jill asked about (below). $10-$12 seems more than reasonable. If it's a hardship for anyone maybe us rich professor types could kick in a little extra to cover them ;-) That's all just fine with me. Bob --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed May 7 01:27:01 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:27:01 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48207C8A.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From lcumberl at indiana.edu Wed May 7 12:17:30 2008 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:17:30 -0400 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48207C8A.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Quoting Jill Greer : > They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any > topic related to the languages. 20 minutes? Customarily, we've had 30 or even 40 - One of the things I have always appreciated about this conference is the time allowed for fuller presentation and meaningful discussion. Could we make a decision about this before the abstract deadline, please? Linda From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed May 7 14:52:39 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:52:39 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimm, I'm sorry if that was confusing - let me clarify, or at least try! I am required by my contract to teach 4 courses each fall and spring as my full time load. As I mentioned, I don't know if MSSU would approve it, but bigger research universities do it frequently. In order for me to only teach say 3 courses, and use that "free" time from course #4 as dedicated to writing on the grammar instead, NSF would be asked to pay that portion of my salary to MSSU, which would allow them to hire an adjunct for that course that I would be "released" from teaching. So essentially MSSU still pays my normal salary to me from their budget as usual, but MSSU gets reimbursed from your NSF grant for allowing me to only teach 3 classes, and writing at the same time. I don't have the exact # available right now, but I believe it is about $1800/ 3 hour course for the current adjunct pay here. (It hasn't gone up since I was an adjunct here 10 years ago!!!) I don't get any additional money from the grant, but I do have more time to do the work that way. We already have students enrolled in the fall under my name in the course schedule, and considering that we are dealing with three different institutions, I wouldn't want to attempt to get them all in sync for the fall 08 term anyway. But I thought I would pass along the idea, so you would have time to think about it, and consider if it is possible, or desirable. However, if that release $ is more than is alloted for that portion, let me know, and we will still work it out, never fear! As I said before, I had been away from bigger institutions for a while, and a colleague reminded me that such things are common there, so why not throw the idea out for consideration. Don't hesitate to be frank, Jimm - I won't be offended! Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 8:27 PM >>> Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed May 7 15:01:27 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:01:27 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <20080507081730.cmrfqcrngg80o0o0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Linda, I am sorry if that time estimate seems too brief - Please don't assume that it is written in stone, it was just a rough number, allowing about 30 minutes total per person, and not being a stickler for the stopwatch. Certainly since there is only one session going on, there is NO need to rush people or cut people off as happens at bigger conferences. (I do hate that!) If you need more time for a paper, then just note that in your abstract, and I can allow for that. If most folks would prefer 30 minutes, with another 10 for discussion, then I will adjust the program accordingly. I am also looking forward to a friendly and open conversations on the topics at hand, and I certainly didn't mean to imply there was a change. I have not been able to attend more than twice in the past summers, so any input or ideas from the core crowd is more than welcome. Thanks for bringing that up. Anyone else having thoughts on time is welcome to chime in! Sincerely, Jill >>> "Cumberland, Linda" 5/7/2008 7:17 AM >>> Quoting Jill Greer : > They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any > topic related to the languages. 20 minutes? Customarily, we've had 30 or even 40 - One of the things I have always appreciated about this conference is the time allowed for fuller presentation and meaningful discussion. Could we make a decision about this before the abstract deadline, please? Linda From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed May 7 23:14:38 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:14:38 -0500 Subject: Attn: Jill Greer In-Reply-To: <48217C08.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Jill: Thank you for your clarification. It just happens that this morning we held a meeting in White Cloud, KS on the budget for this 2nd year. We did put aside some monies for consultant services during this forthcoming year (April(08)-March 09). In as much as we did not use any consultant funds during the prior year, we will be able to cover the amount suggested. I believe that it is safe to say that you may contact your university staff with the thought for their consideration, and then you can get back with me. The monies paid would not be directly from NSF, but it would be by invoice, sent to me to sign, then to the Project Director and then to the Tribe for a direct payment to (You or Whoever). Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Jimm, I'm sorry if that was confusing - let me clarify, or at least try! I am required by my contract to teach 4 courses each fall and spring as my full time load. As I mentioned, I don't know if MSSU would approve it, but bigger research universities do it frequently. In order for me to only teach say 3 courses, and use that "free" time from course #4 as dedicated to writing on the grammar instead, NSF would be asked to pay that portion of my salary to MSSU, which would allow them to hire an adjunct for that course that I would be "released" from teaching. So essentially MSSU still pays my normal salary to me from their budget as usual, but MSSU gets reimbursed from your NSF grant for allowing me to only teach 3 classes, and writing at the same time. I don't have the exact # available right now, but I believe it is about $1800/ 3 hour course for the current adjunct pay here. (It hasn't gone up since I was an adjunct here 10 years ago!!!) I don't get any additional money from the grant, but I do have more time to do the work that way. We already have students enrolled in the fall under my name in the course schedule, and considering that we are dealing with three different institutions, I wouldn't want to attempt to get them all in sync for the fall 08 term anyway. But I thought I would pass along the idea, so you would have time to think about it, and consider if it is possible, or desirable. However, if that release $ is more than is alloted for that portion, let me know, and we will still work it out, never fear! As I said before, I had been away from bigger institutions for a while, and a colleague reminded me that such things are common there, so why not throw the idea out for consideration. Don't hesitate to be frank, Jimm - I won't be offended! Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 8:27 PM >>> Jill: In your note below could you clarify your thoughts on writing the IOM Grammar for the dictionary, as to how would it work and what it would look like in dollars to "buy my time"? jimm "...Also, relating to the Iowa project/grant - Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced...." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Jimm, Never fear - The abstracts that are being sent directly to me are not part of the dictionary roundtable - They are the traditional 20 minute papers that people can give on any topic related to the languages. Catherine is taking charge of organizing the roundtable, and just passing it along to me. I think it will be pretty informal - she mentioned that each project director would probably just take about 10-15 minutes to talk about their progress, their issues, etc., and then after a break and informal questions and answers from the larger group, there would be another sessions where those P.I.s who wanted to actually show some of their database to the rest of us would do so. Technology and pros and cons of print vs. digital dictionaries might be addressed then. She has 7 different language projects listed so far!!! So don't worry, you don't have a deadline next week to meet, you are already on the program, so to speak... It may turn out that we spend the greater portion of the conference doing sessions of this roundtable, depending on how many other formal papers are submitted. Let me know if you need more info. Also,relating to the Iowa project/grant - a colleague of mine had a good idea that I thought I should run by you (and my department head and dean, also). Might it be possible for the grant to "buy" my time next spring rather than pay me directly - If I had release time from one or two courses, then I could devote that time to completing the grammar project then, rather than relying only on summer vacation which gets shorter every year! I know that NSF and other universities do similar things - the administration here hasn't had much opportunity to that kind of thing, I suspect, so they may not be very enthusiastic, but if it doesn't cost them anything, perhaps they can be convinced. Best, Jill >>> "Jimm GoodTracks" 5/6/2008 2:15 PM >>> Jill: When I first contacted you on Dictionary roundtable, you mentioned that you would get back with me on the format of the presentation, once you knew about how many would participate. Below, you are calling for Abstracts. So, Now that you know, what kind of information would you like for me to present the group, other than the discussions on orthography and the alphabetic listing of the words in the Native to English section? Jimm PS: Your $10-$12 conference fee is affordable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Greer" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Attn: Jill Greer Hi, Bob, Certainly! It's greer-j at mssu.edu (and my office phone is 417.625.9795, if anyone needs to talk directly...) Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that flood of abstracts :) Best, Jill >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 5/5/2008 9:40 AM >>> Jill, Could you give us your email address at MSSU again? I forgot to put it in my address book and I need it to send the abstract. Many thanks, Bob From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu May 8 16:25:25 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:25:25 -0500 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching Message-ID: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri May 9 12:14:29 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:14:29 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization George: I believe that there is value in a "Back of the Book" glossary. Often a student does not wish to wade through the length of typical dictionary that provides them more information than they wish at the moment. Electronic dictionaries are available when one is sitting before the computer, and not off to the side in a reading chair. For the very small child in an immersion setting, the glossary is of little or no value, but indeed it becomes a tool for the older student at any learning level. The value of an immediate reader glossary, is that it gives one an immediate answer to "What does this word mean". We just had this discussion this week at the Tribal Office here in Kansas. And further, it was discussed as to how to present that glossary. For Native American Languages, the verb complex is the most important and complex element of a sentence unlike English which allows each element of the sentence and words that enhance the main verb to be presented independently. Certainly a reader can be written in the most simplest format, which involves no prefixes, suffixes, infixes, conjugations, nor additional grammatical elements to be added on to the verb in a Native American sentence. In this case, the reader would only be able to speak in the 3rd person singular, namely: He/ she/ it. In other words, the verb is stripped to its core meaning, which even then, may or may not be a bare root meaning separate from a prefix of instrumentality, that is, a prefix that indicates how an action (of the root word) is performed or caused (by hand, foot, machine, heat, an instrument, etc.). When other voices are introduced, namely -- I, you, we, they and dual or plural elements -- the verb complex begins to build via prefixes and suffixes which have no meaning when detached apart from the verb. In addition, direct and indirect discourse, prepositional elements, probability and more can all factor in. And to this end, the literal translation provided in a more layman's terms rather than a professional linguistic rendition seems to be the most helpful to the language student. I will not have time to review your material, as at the moment I am full time on the providing a revision of our Baxoje Jiwere Dictionary into an unabridged edition, as well as providing the translation of a sixty minute Film. It is for the sake of time, that I have not supplied examples of my discussion above. However, I have written today to support your effort and work, which in my opinion has value and probable applications for other Native American Language communities and even for our work here, when I am able to focus fully on the literature and teaching materials phase. Further, be aware that I did not note any flaws with your English below, as there was nothing unique to suggest that you are of an ESL student background. Sincerely, Jimm Goodtracks Baxoje Jiwere Language Project Lawrence, Kansas ----- Original Message ----- From: kawaguy32 To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization electronic process of raw text of a given book into electronic book with an indexed glossary built-in. Amazon.com folks who sell books use "glossarized" for some of their selling printed books. I a long experienced programmer (over 40 years, now retired.) developed a relatively sized program that is able to "pluck" dictionary definitions from the net for each word in a given book and store them on a local system such as a personal computer. That is the first stage of the said process. The next stage is then to "glossarize" those words for the given book. The definitions stored are in HTML format for previewing purpose. I developed a rather small program that is able to lookup those definitions with an aid of word list from which a user is able to select a word for the definition. It is just a preview program before going into glossized process. The second stage is not yet developed but I am about to commence. I am wondering if there is such software available on market similar to mine. I got the concept of "glossarizing" process not long ago so that I could enjoy reading ebooks with glossary built-in. I know there are already on market electronic dictionaries for ebook readers but they are not so good and sometimes too many definitions for the same word, somewhat distracts the reader from the continuious thought while reading. The "glossarized" electronic books would be an ideal for children, not only those but also ESL readers like myself. Thank you. Geo Massar Recent Activity a.. 7New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Groups Join a program to help you find balance in your life. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri May 9 15:04:09 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:04:09 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: siouan at lists.colorado.ed Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:14 AM Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimm GoodTracks To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization George: I believe that there is value in a "Back of the Book" glossary. Often a student does not wish to wade through the length of typical dictionary that provides them more information than they wish at the moment. Electronic dictionaries are available when one is sitting before the computer, and not off to the side in a reading chair. For the very small child in an immersion setting, the glossary is of little or no value, but indeed it becomes a tool for the older student at any learning level. The value of an immediate reader glossary, is that it gives one an immediate answer to "What does this word mean". We just had this discussion this week at the Tribal Office here in Kansas. And further, it was discussed as to how to present that glossary. For Native American Languages, the verb complex is the most important and complex element of a sentence unlike English which allows each element of the sentence and words that enhance the main verb to be presented independently. Certainly a reader can be written in the most simplest format, which involves no prefixes, suffixes, infixes, conjugations, nor additional grammatical elements to be added on to the verb in a Native American sentence. In this case, the reader would only be able to speak in the 3rd person singular, namely: He/ she/ it. In other words, the verb is stripped to its core meaning, which even then, may or may not be a bare root meaning separate from a prefix of instrumentality, that is, a prefix that indicates how an action (of the root word) is performed or caused (by hand, foot, machine, heat, an instrument, etc.). When other voices are introduced, namely -- I, you, we, they and dual or plural elements -- the verb complex begins to build via prefixes and suffixes which have no meaning when detached apart from the verb. In addition, direct and indirect discourse, prepositional elements, probability and more can all factor in. And to this end, the literal translation provided in a more layman's terms rather than a professional linguistic rendition seems to be the most helpful to the language student. I will not have time to review your material, as at the moment I am full time on the providing a revision of our Baxoje Jiwere Dictionary into an unabridged edition, as well as providing the translation of a sixty minute Film. It is for the sake of time, that I have not supplied examples of my discussion above. However, I have written today to support your effort and work, which in my opinion has value and probable applications for other Native American Language communities and even for our work here, when I am able to focus fully on the literature and teaching materials phase. Further, be aware that I did not note any flaws with your English below, as there was nothing unique to suggest that you are of an ESL student background. Sincerely, Jimm Goodtracks Baxoje Jiwere Language Project Lawrence, Kansas ----- Original Message ----- From: kawaguy32 To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: [Lexicog] Digital Glossarization electronic process of raw text of a given book into electronic book with an indexed glossary built-in. Amazon.com folks who sell books use "glossarized" for some of their selling printed books. I a long experienced programmer (over 40 years, now retired.) developed a relatively sized program that is able to "pluck" dictionary definitions from the net for each word in a given book and store them on a local system such as a personal computer. That is the first stage of the said process. The next stage is then to "glossarize" those words for the given book. The definitions stored are in HTML format for previewing purpose. I developed a rather small program that is able to lookup those definitions with an aid of word list from which a user is able to select a word for the definition. It is just a preview program before going into glossized process. The second stage is not yet developed but I am about to commence. I am wondering if there is such software available on market similar to mine. I got the concept of "glossarizing" process not long ago so that I could enjoy reading ebooks with glossary built-in. I know there are already on market electronic dictionaries for ebook readers but they are not so good and sometimes too many definitions for the same word, somewhat distracts the reader from the continuious thought while reading. The "glossarized" electronic books would be an ideal for children, not only those but also ESL readers like myself. Thank you. Geo Massar Recent Activity a.. 7New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Groups Join a program to help you find balance in your life. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Mon May 12 16:52:54 2008 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:52:54 -0500 Subject: Fw: [Lexicog] New Lakota Dictionary Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan Ullrich To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:10 AM Subject: [Lexicog] New Lakota Dictionary Dear lexicographers I am happy to announce that the New Lakota Dictionary has been finished and is now being printed. Copies of the dictionary will be available after July 15 and sample pages can be seen at this address: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf The dictionary can be ordered at www.lakhota.org or at http://stores.languagepress.com/Detail.bok?no=35 The dictionary was developed using the Linguist's Toolbox (SIL) and is the result of twenty years of work. There are 20,000 Lakota-English entries and 11,000 English-Lakota entries, and over 40,000 example sentences, usage notes and collocations. The dictionary marks the 3,000 most important words and each entry provides references to the forms of the word in Dakota dialects. I wish to thank the SIL programmers for the Linguist's Toolbox as well as to members of the lexicography list for useful replies to questions I posted during the past few years and for various hints during numerous discussions. Best regards Jan Ullrich Lakota Language Consortium __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 9New Members b.. 1New Links Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Special K Group on Yahoo! Groups Join the challenge and lose weight. Cat Groups on Yahoo! Groups Share pictures & stories about cats. . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 17:34:18 2008 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:34:18 -0700 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching In-Reply-To: <4822E33F.A34A.000B.0@MSSU.EDU> Message-ID: Hi Jill, Here is my semi-abstract for the paper I plan to present. I really have not begun researching for this paper yet, so I can probably have a fuller abstract by June if you need it. In the meantime, I hope this will suffice: Some Amerindian languages use particles to indicate past, future, conditional, or any other situations contrary to fact or present reality. This is often referred to as "irrealis." This paper explores the use of "hi" as an irrealis particle in Biloxi. Thanks Jill. Dave Jill Greer wrote: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon May 12 18:25:11 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:25:11 -0500 Subject: Abstract Deadline Approaching In-Reply-To: <206411.97322.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Dave, That will be fine for now (actually, as far as I am concerned, it is fine for the program too - we only have one session, and a small crowd, so I can't imagine anyone needing more details until they hear the actual presentation! It's not like they are going to choose between it and another simultaneous talk, right?) I'm glad to know you are coming. It should be fun. By the way, I need to remind people to make their reservations for the conference rate this week for sure, if they haven't already. The hotel wants me to give them a number by Friday so they can release any extra rooms from the reserved block... Please let me know if you need any more information about getting to town, etc. Best, Jill >>> David Kaufman 5/12/2008 12:34 PM >>> Hi Jill, Here is my semi-abstract for the paper I plan to present. I really have not begun researching for this paper yet, so I can probably have a fuller abstract by June if you need it. In the meantime, I hope this will suffice: Some Amerindian languages use particles to indicate past, future, conditional, or any other situations contrary to fact or present reality. This is often referred to as "irrealis." This paper explores the use of "hi" as an irrealis particle in Biloxi. Thanks Jill. Dave Jill Greer wrote: Hello, All! Just a friendly reminder that Monday is our deadline for submitting your abstract for the rapidly approaching conference (June 20-21) in Joplin! All are welcome to submit, and the title and topic are not binding - I simply want to know how many people are planning to present, and how many people plan to attend without actually presenting. Please consider your contribution to be an invited one (I promise I will give everyone a time slot, even if we have to continue a session at the local pizza parlor!!!) (And it looks good on a vitae also...) I have reserved a block of 25 rooms at the Baymont Inn (417.623.0000) under the shortened title Siouan Conference at the rate of $54.95/ night (plus tax of course). They have free breakfast with that (the self-service type, I believe), and wireless connection, and I think there is an indoor pool as well. I need to ask everyone to book their rooms very soon, so that they can release any extra rooms by May 15th!!! I will put a program together by June 1. At present, I have the following titles and presenters ( in purely random order)--- A. General SCLC Session- Ponca Vowel Length in the Transcriptions of James Owen Dorsey by Robert L. Rankin and Kathleen Shea Informational Constraints on Syntax in Ponca and Omaha by Bryan James Gordon A few additional abstracts promised to be forthcoming include - well, you know who you are :) B. Dictionary Roundtable Presenters At Last Date Included these 8: "Some Remarks on Instrumental Verb Lexemes in a Kansa Dictionary" by Robert L. Rankin Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Catherine Rudin, Rory Larson - Omaha-Ponca Jimm Goodtracks - Ioway-Otoe-Missouria John Boyle - Hidatsa David Kaufman - Biloxi Randy Graczyk - Crow Iren Hartmann - Hocank Carolyn Quintero - Osage I have heard from two additional tribal language educators who plan to attend also, which is exciting. Because of the tremendous interest in the round-table discussion, plenty of time will be alloted for that event. Many thanks to Catherin Rudin for heading up this panel!!!! I appreciate those of you who have already sent your regrets - we will miss you. I look forward to more abstracts pouring in Monday! Jill --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From jfu at centrum.cz Mon May 12 19:16:20 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:16:20 +0200 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 12 22:48:48 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:48:48 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From carudin1 at wsc.edu Mon May 12 22:59:16 2008 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:59:16 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: Me too (terrific, looking forward, etc!) Perhaps we'll get a chance to look at some samples of this together at the roundtable? Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 05/12/08 5:48 PM >>> Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From jfu at centrum.cz Tue May 13 08:44:28 2008 From: jfu at centrum.cz (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:44:28 +0200 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob, I am happy you like the sample pages and hope that you will find the entire dictionary useful. > Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched > by machine, or is it to be printed only? The dictionary is currently available only in printed form. An electronic version is going to be our next project. We are planning to record all of the headwords and perhaps all example sentences, and include the audio on the CD. We already have several native speakers interested in working on this project. For the electronic version, however, we have to solve many issues of parsing Lakota, because we would like to enable the users to search for any form of a word, not just for its lemma. Creating such parser will be the more difficult part of the project. But not less exciting. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:49 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob _____ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From rankin at ku.edu Tue May 13 14:17:57 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:17:57 -0500 Subject: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Message-ID: It looks really authoritative. By CD I was only thinking about doing lexical searches using the computer, not so much being able to retrieve the pronunciation, etc. But a fully functional "talking dictionary" would really be useful to speakers and potential speakers. Good luck with the project. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tue 5/13/2008 3:44 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Bob, I am happy you like the sample pages and hope that you will find the entire dictionary useful. > Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched > by machine, or is it to be printed only? The dictionary is currently available only in printed form. An electronic version is going to be our next project. We are planning to record all of the headwords and perhaps all example sentences, and include the audio on the CD. We already have several native speakers interested in working on this project. For the electronic version, however, we have to solve many issues of parsing Lakota, because we would like to enable the users to search for any form of a word, not just for its lemma. Creating such parser will be the more difficult part of the project. But not less exciting. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:49 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Jan, Just looked at the sample pages and it looks terrific! I'm looking forward to getting one. Will it be available on CD so that it can be searched by machine, or is it to be printed only? We'll miss you at the roundtable. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Mon 5/12/2008 2:16 PM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: RE: SACC2009 dictionary roundtable Hi, everyone, and sorry for the late reply to this topic. I have been out of office for several weeks. I would love to participate in the dictionary roundtable but am unable to attend the conference due to my teaching/research schedule in South Dakota. I hope the roundtable participants can take a look at the sample pages from the New Lakota Dictionary and examine them. I would be very happy to hear any comments and critique. The sample pages are at: http://www.lakhota.org/downloads/pdf/Sample_NLD.pdf I was going to write a little announcement on the dictionary but I am glad David did that instead of me. Also, Jim Good Tracks just forwarded the announcement I wrote for the lexicography list. With best regards Jan From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri May 16 19:54:47 2008 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:54:47 -0500 Subject: Siouan / Caddoan Conference hotel Message-ID: Hi, all, Just a brief correction - I have been urging folks to quickly make their reservations for the conference , but after speaking with the Baymont manager today, she said that she will hold that block of rooms for us until June 7th, so that gives a few of you more breathing room to get your funding requests through the wheels of bureaucracy in time. I apologize for the mistake. I hope that everyone remembers to tell them it is for the Siouan conference, or else they may not be getting the right rate. Anyone else who is planning to attend but not present a paper, I would appreciate hearing from you also in the next week or so... It's looking like a great list of events - thank you all for getting things in to Catherine Rudin and me! Best, Jill Jill D. Greer Assistant Professor Social Science Department MSSU Joplin, MO 64801 From rankin at ku.edu Mon May 26 18:22:07 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 13:22:07 -0500 Subject: Code talkers. Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Stabler, I haven't forgotten you. I keep finding things in the texts that need to be "fixed". I've done about the correcting that I'm ambitious enough to do, so I'll try to get you a CD of the texts out in the next few days. Best wishes, Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler Sent: Mon 5/5/2008 10:48 AM To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Code talkers. You are kind. My address is Vida Stabler, Umo^n ho^n Nation Public Schoool, Umo^n ho^n Language & Cultural Center, Box 280, Macy, Nebraska 68039 Wibthaho^n , VSS Rankin, Robert L wrote: > Dear Mrs. Stabler, > > If you don't have access to an email address that readily accepts attachments, why don't you send me your postal address and I'll just fire off a copy of the Dorsey texts to you on a disk. > > Best, > > Bob R. > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Vida Stabler > Sent: Thu 5/1/2008 2:58 PM > To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu > Subject: Re: Code talkers. > > > > Mr. Tom Leonard, sounds like you were really blessed to know these men. > Vida > > Tom Leonard wrote: > >> FYI - >> >> Charles Chibitty, the last survivor of 20 Comanche code talkers who >> used their native language to transmit messages for the Allies in >> Europe during World War II died in July 2005. He was 83. >> >> "/It's strange, but growing up as a child I was forbidden to speak my >> native language at school," Chibitty said in 2002. "Later my country >> asked me to. My language helped win the war and that makes me very >> proud. Very proud./" >> >> I knew Charlie (he lived nearby, here in Tulsa) Forrest Kassanavoid, >> and a few of the others. They were ALL great guys...real gentlemen. It >> was a honor to know them and to have the opportunity to visit with them. >> >> Some further info here: >> http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche%20Code%20Talkers.htm >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker >> >> >> >> Rankin, Robert L wrote: >> >>> Interesting. All this stuff should be collected and the principals interviewed to the extent that it's still possible. The participants didn't want to talk about it for a long time because it was "classified", but that is no longer the case (although I suppose interviewers should get a letter from the Pentagon saying so). >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride >>> Sent: Wed 4/30/2008 11:39 AM >>> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu >>> Subject: Re: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> >>> I went to a code talker reception in Oklahoma City a year or two ago. I >>> heard something I'd never considered before. There have been several >>> instances in wars past in which two or more fluent tribal language speakers >>> from the same community happened to be in the same batch of soldiers (unit, >>> platoon, or whatever). In those cases, speakers were not infrequently called >>> upon to communicate by way of their shared language, especially in >>> close-fighting situations where the shouting of tactical orders may have >>> been overheard by enemy troops that may have knowledge of English. Soldiers >>> who did this sort of thing weren't code talkers per se, and have never been >>> recognized for their contributions to the war effort. >>> >>> I recently heard that there were a few Kaw "code talkers," and ever since >>> that reception I've wondered if the designation may have actually referred >>> to this phenomenon of impromptu tribal language use in combat settings. I >>> wanted to ask one of those guys who was supposedly such a talker, Houston >>> Taylor, but he recently passed away. I guess these guys, however heroic, >>> aren't getting any younger. >>> >>> -Justin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rankin, Robert L" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:54 AM >>> Subject: RE: Code talkers. >>> >>> >>> I'd guess that, over time, the "code(s)" could have been broken. As several >>> have said, any language can be reduced to its grammar. In the case of the >>> American Indian languages, they were used as tactical codes, not strategic >>> codes, as far as I know. The latter are used for diplomatic and general >>> staff, etc. communications, and it was those that our cryptanalysts had the >>> best luck with against the Japanese and Germans. Even if the Japanese had >>> painfully learned Navajo (or Seminole, Choctaw, Omaha, Comanche, etc.), they >>> would have had to be able to understand the language spoken rapidly by >>> native speakers under battlefield conditions. How many of us could do that >>> with the Siouan languages we've studied for so many years!? As an aside, I >>> don't think the alleged "difficulties" of the Navajo language had much of >>> anything to do with its success as a code. >>> >>> On top of the language there was a fairly simple substitution code with >>> different words for various military terms, and they would have had to be >>> decrypted too. All in all, it was a terrifically efficient system, and the >>> participants deserve all of the credit that has been bestowed on them, >>> however belatedly. >>> >>> The contribution of the Navajos has become pretty well known, but I think >>> someone should try to interview any left who were from other tribes -- in >>> any war. And, if not them, then their living relatives. There's definitely >>> a book to be written there, and who better to write it than someone with >>> roots in the Native American community or a linguist? >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > From MARINO at skyway.usask.ca Mon May 26 18:24:29 2008 From: MARINO at skyway.usask.ca (Mary Marino) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:24:29 -0600 Subject: My New Address Message-ID: Hello, Your message has been automatically forwarded to my new address which is: mary.marino at usask.ca (replace at with the @ symbol) At your earliest convenience, please update your addressbook/contacts list to reflect my new email address. Note: You will continue to receive this message if you continue to send email to my old account. Thanks, - From rankin at ku.edu Thu May 29 14:42:08 2008 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:42:08 -0500 Subject: FW: IOWAY screening events in Topeka and Lincoln Message-ID: Award-winning "Lost Nation: The Ioway" film to be featured in special screening events in Topeka, Kansas and Lincoln, Nebraska DETAILS: Topeka, Kansas Event: The movie event, sponsored by the Kansas Humanities Council, will take place Sunday, June 1 at 3:00 p.m. at the Kansas State Historical Society, 6425 SW 6th Avenue, Topeka, Kansas. The program is free to the public and includes the film followed by Q&A with the film producers Kelly and Tammy Rundle, Ioway Tribal Member and artist Reuben IronHorse-Kent, and Baxoje-Jiwere linguist Jimm Goodtracks. Lincoln, Nebraska Event: The movie event, sponsored by the Nebraska Humanities Council, will take place at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 at the Mary Riepma Ross Media Arts Center, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 313 N. 13th Street, Lincoln, NE 68588. This special Nebraska Humanities Council program is free to the public, and includes the film screening followed by Q&A with the film producers and other film participants. "Lost Nation: The Ioway" was funded in part by the Nebraska Humanities Council, the Kansas Humanities Council, Humanities Iowa, the Oklahoma Humanities, Silos and Smokestacks National Heritage Area, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. -30-