A little (trilingual) fun!

[Clive Bloomfield]

Jimm, That was a fascinating & thoughtful response, & I enjoyed  
reading (& re-reading) it.
I have always found the problem of cross-cultural translation  
equivalents extremely interesting.
Thank you very much!
May this New Year bring blessings to you & your family.
Clive.

P.S. I am determined to learn some more Omaha-Ponca, but I find it  
easier to learn (at least to read &, to some extent, to write a  
language)
by studying a text-book  or reference grammar, in conjunction with  
texts, than by reading on-line. I guess I'm the old fashioned type,  
when it comes to language-learning.
But that UNL Web-site's great, I must admit!

On 10/01/2009, at 12:14 AM, Jimm GoodTracks wrote:

> Clive:  Báñi Pi umáñi ho.
> Wiyuškiŋyaŋ Omakȟa Tȟečha!/Happy New Year!
>
> As the translation of dialectal, colloquial speech into another  
> language equivalent of similar colloquial speech, I will have to  
> pass.  The conversation has a lot of cultural or better to say,  
> particular group attitudes that just does not carry over into other  
> cultures, albeit, humor is universal, but not everyone sees humor  
> in the same light or in regard to the same subject areas.
> Last year, (2008) I completed a full text translation of dialogs,  
> conversations and subtitles of the documentary movie for a DVD  
> auxiliary sound track "The Lost Nation: The Ioway."  Within the  
> more commonplace discussions of tribal members, anthropologists,  
> archeologists, historians, etc., I came across a good many notions,  
> concepts, views for which there was no equivalent Baxoje Jiwere  
> term.  In some cases, I was able to look at related languages  
> (Winnebago, Lakota, Omaha, Osage) as to how they translated a word  
> or concept.   Bob helped me realize that there are and always will  
> be some words which must be brought into the speaker language,  
> which defy any kind of an adequate translation.
> One word
> in particular was especially troublesome.  The word "citizen" was  
> used in a statement by one Ioway Elder.  In reference to WWI, and  
> the volunteer recruitment of Native soldiers, he said (not an exact  
> quote):  "A lot of  those boys went over there, and they weren't  
> even citizens".  You can surmise in this statement, the term  
> "citizen" has more than the typical significance for the Native  
> People, in contrast to the typical country citizen.  Without  
> getting into much history,  it took an earlier court ruling in the  
> case of a Ponca ("Chief" another anglo invented word) for Natives  
> Americans to be viewed as "human beings", and another 1920s court  
> to declare that Native Americans to be "citizens" of the U.S.  So  
> the word has a unique view from the Native standpoint, which is  
> usually lost on the general public.
> From the Native view, when asked "What are you?" the reply is, at  
> least among more traditional persons with cultural teachings (which  
> is not the case for many younger generation, who edge towards not  
> knowing "who/ what" they are)  will have a reply:  "I am Ponca ( or  
> Ioway, Kiowa, Lakota, etc.), and then followed by "I'm Bear Clan  
> (or whatever clan or sub group."  Elders told that in the past, the  
> Clans had sub groups, but that is well over a hundred years and  
> more when such division were known.  In trying to approach an  
> equivalent for this term "citizen" from a Native perspective, I  
> recalled all of this from the Ioway Otoe Elders, and confirmed the  
> same with Mark who asked the following questions of fluent Omaha  
> speakers.  [Note: I do not have the exact Omaha words available at  
> this writing, so I'll use the IOM words].
>
> If you see someone who is not Native in appearance, What would you  
> call them?
> Ma^unke (white people); WashiThewe (black people).
>
> And if these people in appearance, seem to be from some other  
> country, other than the US, then how would you call them?
> Ukihje (some other tribe).
>
> The Ioway Elders shunned the mixing of English words into their  
> speech, and frequently refused to translate such words or the  
> sentence altogether.  For example, in the sentence,  "John went to  
> town."  The Otoe Elder refused, saying in English:  "I cann't do  
> that 'John'".  When reworded to say:  "White Horse went to town,"  
> the same Elder immediately responded, saying: "SúngeHga chína  
> waré ke."  Again, knowing this, I left the word citizen in the  
> Baxoje Jiwere translation irregardless:
>
>
>   A lot of them guys went to war when they weren’t even citizens. 
> [1]  They weren’t citizens until June 1924.
>
> GC:  Éda ichindoiñe  róhan   wagídotanñe  aráñena   
> “citizens”  híñe škúñinàšgun.    Báñi 1924da  Bí  
> Xamóxra Šúwe aréna   “citizens” gašún  anáhehi ^ášgún.
>
> [Literal:  (meaning unknown):   Then  young-men  a-lot  them- 
> against-war-they    go-they-and  citizens they-are  not- they- it- 
> seems;  Year  1924-during  Month Flower Small  (it)-is- when  - 
> citizens   now  they-allow-(it)-make  it-seems]
>
>
> [1]  Note:  In as much as there is no known word for “citizen”  
> in Báxoje, and no living fluent speakers to refer for a response,  
> the question was put to fluent Omaha speakers, as to how they would  
> say it.  Mark Awakuni Swetland replied in an Email on 6/3/08:  “I  
> visited with (Omaha)…speakers…about…citizen inquiry.  The two  
> ladies were not familiar with a term in Omaha that corresponds to  
> the concept of citizen in the legal sence…use(d)…today.  They  
> suggested (in Omaha) “people ~ person”, (and)…what “kind”  
> of people/ person it was is… preceed… with… the ethnic  
> identifiers available… Omaha person… White person.  The  
> predisposition for self-identification is a mixed one.  Usually the  
> tribal affiliation is first.  Some folks will identify their clan  
> if they know it….   and… I have  rarely heard an Omaha person  
> voluntarily state being an "American" unless in a venue where such  
> rhetoric is expected (veteran activities usually).  I have never  
> heard an Omaha person categorically state that s/he was NOT an  
> American (citizen).  In suggesting the context of standing on a  
> street corner and seeing two individuals approaching, one being  
> obviously an "American citizen" and the other obviously from some  
> other land, the speakers suggested the former would be a Wa'xe  
> nia'shiNga  (White person) and the latter an ukki'tte -- other  
> tribe/people.”  Similar sentiments have been expressed by various  
> late Ioway Elders.  jgt.
>
> Well now, Cleve, I know that all the above was not what you had in  
> mind in your contributed writing on dialectic peer humor, but at  
> least it is a responce for whatever value you have for it.
>
> Jimm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clive Bloomfield
> To: SIOUAN LIST LIST
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:16 PM
> Subject: Re : A little (trilingual) fun!
>
> Happy New Year, all! :D
>
> And now for a little party fun - with, (hopefully) at least some  
> Siouan relevance (Lakota).
>
> No disrespect intended, naturally, just a little linguistic light- 
> heartedness & entertainment over the "silly" season - after all, as  
> they said in the classics,
> "Nemo omnibus horis sapit", (approx. "laughter is the most  
> salubrious riposte to life's dirty left" [Veramente -traduttore  
> traditore!]), am I right? ;)
>
> Hey Anthony, how about a Geordie version? Bruce, what about a  
> Scots, or maybe Cockney version? Dave, U.S. West Coast, or Biloxi?  
> Omaha-Ponca version?
> Jimm, Osage, Ioway, Kansa, Quapaw? Mandan, Hidatsa, Crow?  
> Winnebago? Catawba, Oto, Tutelo?   Rumsien Ohlone, Dave? Improved  
> Lakota?
>
>
> DRAMATIS PERSONAE :
>
> 2 Aussie blokes, Chaz (Charlie), and "Bluey" his best mate  
> (ubiquitous red-haired male personage; orig. Christian name  
> irrevocably lost in mists of time);
> 1 fun-loving Aussie sheila Bluey's better half; (definitely a good- 
> sport);
> 1 funster U.S. citizen, Marvin (indeterminate dialect); 1 party- 
> loving Lakota.
>
> AETATES VITAE (Quot annos hi nati sunt? What ages?) :
>
> Young at heart .
>
> LOCUS ACTIONIS :
>
> Somewhere "Down Under" : usually  on the back patio, 'round the  
> swimming-pool; (ankle-biters & grandkids long tucked-up in bed).
>
> TEMPUS ANNI : Commonly mid-summer twilit late evening.
>
> TEMERATURA : vesperi magnopere aestuosa (hic enim saepe aestuat) -  
> often abt. 96 to 110 degrees F.
>
>
>
>
>
> Aussie :            [=G'day blokes & sheilas! Geez,  ripper party,  
> fair dinkum!]
>
> American :     [=Hi, gang! Hot dog, this is one bad-aassss party -  
> yessirrree!]
>
> Lakh^o'ta :    [=Hau mita'kuye thechi'h^ilapi kiN! A'wichakh^eya,  
> le' kichi'chopi kin li'lah^ciN wo'imag^ag^a s'ele'!]
>
>
>
> Aussie :           [='Ay Chaz me ole china, pull your finger out,  
> there's a good feller : just chuck another dingo on the barbie,  
> willya son?]
>
> American :     [=Hey there, Chuck ole buddy, get the lead out &  
> toss another coyote on the B-B-Q there, woncha? Attaboy!]
>
> Lakh^o'ta :    [=Ho' wo, Charlie kh^ola', akhe' shuNgma'nitu  
> wanz^i' s^paN kta cha oche'thi kiN aka'N au'N wet^o'!]
>
>
>
> Aussie :               [=No worries in the world, mate! Beauty- 
> bottler, cobber!]
>
> American :        [=Sure thing, pal! Like, totally awesome, bro!]
>
> Lakh^o'ta  :      [=Oha'N chekpa'! ChiNto'k? Li'la chaNtéwas^teya  
> echa'chicicuN kte, kh^ola', he'  i'cat'a khili' kte tkh^a' !
>
>
>
> Aussie sheila :                                                    
> [=Crickey, sport, this 'ere's flamin' grouse tucker, eh, Bluey!]
>
> American babe :                                               [=Hey  
> bigboy, this grub sure kicks ass, ain't that the truth!]
>
> Lakh^o'ta th^awi'chiNcala kiN   :             [=Ith^o', wicha'h^ca,  
> le' wo'yute kiN paNh^ya' oyu'l was^te' la'h^cake le!
>
>
>
> Aussie :          [='Struth Ruth, is it what, pet!!]
>
> American :    [=You better believe it, babydoll!!]
>
> Lakh^o'ta :   [=WaN, winu'h^ca is^ta th^oth^o' , ta'ku ehe' kiN  
> he'chetu kiN he' chet'u'Nwagla s^ni yelo'!!]
>
>
>
> P.S. I  hope my Lakhota is at least marginally better than my  
> American dialects! I suspect not. ;)
>
> _____________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20090110/5981d0ef/attachment.html>