From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Mon Jul 6 17:27:17 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:27:17 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From george.wilmes at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 20:47:52 2009 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:47:52 -0500 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs In-Reply-To: <4A51DF950200007300245C07@gw004.cc.uregina.ca> Message-ID: Hi Emily, I don't know if you have already checked Einaudi's grammar of Biloxi, but in section 741 on pages 106-107 there are a few examples that meet your criteria. (Please see the attached; sorry for the poor quality of the copy.) George Wilmes NEIU On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Emily Schudel wrote: > Hi everyone. > > It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life > kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my > pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically > Nakoda and Stoney). > > Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota > dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning > of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was > wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs > with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. > I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by > searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I > can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding > the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter!  I > think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think > of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections > to see if anything pops up. > > Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they > exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good > sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the > literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. > > In the meantime, I will keep searching... > > Thanks! > > Emily > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: reduplication in Biloxi.doc Type: application/msword Size: 168960 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jul 6 21:37:25 2009 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:37:25 -0500 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Emily, Welcome back! Stoney is very important because there is so little in print on it. I assume you probably have Linda Cumberland's excellent dissertation on Assiniboine. I'll look at my Kansa and Quapaw data to see if I have any of what you're looking for. I don't recall any instances off hand, but the Dhegiha languages don't make as much use of reduplication as Dakotan. Best of luck with your work. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Emily Schudel Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 12:27 PM To: SIOUAN at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From linguista at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 18:31:20 2009 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:31:20 -0700 Subject: ega=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=81=BF_?= compounds in Omaha and Ponca Message-ID: Howdy all, especially Dhegihanists! Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the various uses of the e+gaⁿmorphemes together in Ponca or Omaha (or any other Dhegiha language)? As we all know, this combination occurs in conjunctions, adverbs, referential pronominal-thingies and verbs of various predicative and quotative sorts, and there is debate as to whether gaⁿ is a single morpheme given nifty collocations like ðégimaⁿ "I do thus". Anyone got a list as a starting point for further investigation? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jul 9 19:04:43 2009 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: ega=?EUC-KR?Q?=A9=FA_?= compounds in Omaha and Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bryan, A few years ago, we did a project with our second year Omaha students to analyze Dorsey texts and make a running glossary/dictionary from them. I think we got through about the first ten chapters before the class ended or somebody said "Enough!" Here's what I have in my side file for gaN. (r = ledh; c = esh; q = voiceless velar fricative; E = e-breve; ' = accent; ? = glottal stop) gaN and; so e'gaN so; like that; thus akHe'gaN he was like (a tempter) ame'gaN something like them (we's?a kHE ame'gaN - a snake or something) egaN' the aforementioned having happened, ... egaN' DO (cut it up)! Urgent, but polite, command adverb. e'degaN but re'gaN thus caN gaN for no special reason caNqti gaN' just as it happened I'm sure that barely scratches the surface, but it suggests a little of the range. Rory Bryan James Gordon Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/09/2009 01:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject egaⁿ compounds in Omaha and Ponca Howdy all, especially Dhegihanists! Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the various uses of the e+gaⁿ morphemes together in Ponca or Omaha (or any other Dhegiha language)? As we all know, this combination occurs in conjunctions, adverbs, referential pronominal-thingies and verbs of various predicative and quotative sorts, and there is debate as to whether gaⁿ is a single morpheme given nifty collocations like ðégimaⁿ "I do thus". Anyone got a list as a starting point for further investigation? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Fri Jul 10 23:36:08 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:36:08 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi! Thanks for the welcome back. It's good to be digging back into the work! I do have Linda's dissertation - it's a great source of details and data. It really is hard to find good examples that are glossed though...very frustrating! Thanks! I will probably "see" you again online. Have a good summer! Emily >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/06/09 3:37 PM >>> Emily, Welcome back! Stoney is very important because there is so little in print on it. I assume you probably have Linda Cumberland's excellent dissertation on Assiniboine. I'll look at my Kansa and Quapaw data to see if I have any of what you're looking for. I don't recall any instances off hand, but the Dhegiha languages don't make as much use of reduplication as Dakotan. Best of luck with your work. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Emily Schudel Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 12:27 PM To: SIOUAN at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Fri Jul 10 23:41:08 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:41:08 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi! Thanks for the information. I am having trouble viewing the file though...I am opening the document, but it won't let me see the image file that's inserted. Would it be possible for you to send the image file as a stand alone file? Thanks again!! Emily Emily Schudel Project Manager/Distance Learning Consultant/Linguist >>> George Wilmes 07/06/09 2:47 PM >>> Hi Emily, I don't know if you have already checked Einaudi's grammar of Biloxi, but in section 741 on pages 106-107 there are a few examples that meet your criteria. (Please see the attached; sorry for the poor quality of the copy.) George Wilmes NEIU On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Emily Schudel wrote: > Hi everyone. > > It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life > kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my > pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically > Nakoda and Stoney). > > Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota > dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning > of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was > wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs > with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. > I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by > searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I > can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding > the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I > think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think > of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections > to see if anything pops up. > > Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they > exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good > sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the > literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. > > In the meantime, I will keep searching... > > Thanks! > > Emily > From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Sun Jul 26 21:37:28 2009 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:37:28 +0200 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: This is an automatic response to your mail. I am out of office from July, 22 until August, 13. In case of an emergency, please contact Mrs Stitz (ingrid.stitz at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de) Sincerly, Johannes Helmbrecht From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 21:30:25 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:30:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Caron" To: "Rankin, Robert L" ; "Justin McBride" Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" ; "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism >I found this reference on line, but can't get to the library to check it >out right now (I'm home in bed with a bad back). > "Origin of the Name Wichita" Zoe A. Tilghman American Anthropologist, New > Series, Vol. 43, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul. - Sep., 1941), pp. 488-489 > Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/663168 > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: "Mike Caron" ; "Justin McBride" > ; "Jimm GoodTracks" > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:23 AM > Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism > > >>A friend of mine at CU works with the Wichita tribe on their language >>program. I'll see what I can find out. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Mike Caron [mailto:mcaron at sunflower.com] >> Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 12:13 PM >> To: Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride; Jimm GoodTracks >> Cc: Kindscher, Kelly >> Subject: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Apparently the waist/crotch/ass deep nonsense has drifted from Wakarusa >> all the way south to Wichita! I stumbled across the following entry in a >> book that was donated to the Douglas County Correctional Facility library >> recently: >> >> Wichita. The Wichita Indians, and thus Wichita, Kansas, >> which is named for the tribe, may take its name from the >> tribe's word wichita (waist deep). One old story, which I can't >> verify, says that these Indians pushed their squaws out into >> rivers to see how deep they were. if a place was safe for crossing, >> the squaws would cry out "wichita" to the relatively timid >> braves on shore, who proceeded to ford the river. If they sank, >> presumably, the river wasn't safe to cross. >> >> Robert Hendrickson, QPB ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. Facts On >> File, (Quality Paperback Books) second edition (1998?), p. 775. >> >> I wonder where Hendrickson got his "facts" on file. >> Mike >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 > 05:58:00 > From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 21:29:38 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:29:38 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kindscher, Kelly" To: "Jimm GoodTracks" ; "Mike Caron" ; "Rankin, Robert L" ; "Justin McBride" Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism Here it is as a .pdf Kelly ________________________________ From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com] Sent: Sun 7/26/2009 1:41 PM To: Mike Caron; Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride Cc: Kindscher, Kelly Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism Unable to access it without some kind of membership. Is it possible you can scan it and sent it? It appears to be only 2 pages. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Caron" > To: "Rankin, Robert L" >; "Justin McBride" > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" >; "Jimm GoodTracks" > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism >I found this reference on line, but can't get to the library to check it >out > right now (I'm home in bed with a bad back). > "Origin of the Name Wichita" Zoe A. Tilghman American Anthropologist, New > Series, Vol. 43, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul. - Sep., 1941), pp. 488-489 > Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/663168 > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > > To: "Mike Caron" >; > "Justin McBride" > >; "Jimm > GoodTracks" > > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:23 AM > Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism > > >>A friend of mine at CU works with the Wichita tribe on their language >>program. I'll see what I can find out. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Mike Caron [mailto:mcaron at sunflower.com] >> Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 12:13 PM >> To: Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride; Jimm GoodTracks >> Cc: Kindscher, Kelly >> Subject: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Apparently the waist/crotch/ass deep nonsense has drifted from Wakarusa >> all the way south to Wichita! I stumbled across the following entry in a >> book that was donated to the Douglas County Correctional Facility library >> recently: >> >> Wichita. The Wichita Indians, and thus Wichita, Kansas, >> which is named for the tribe, may take its name from the >> tribe's word wichita (waist deep). One old story, which I can't >> verify, says that these Indians pushed their squaws out into >> rivers to see how deep they were. if a place was safe for crossing, >> the squaws would cry out "wichita" to the relatively timid >> braves on shore, who proceeded to ford the river. If they sank, >> presumably, the river wasn't safe to cross. >> >> Robert Hendrickson, QPB ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. Facts On >> File, (Quality Paperback Books) second edition (1998?), p. 775. >> >> I wonder where Hendrickson got his "facts" on file. >> Mike >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 > 05:58:00 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tilghman Wichita Name Origin.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 309102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linguista at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 21:52:52 2009 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:52:52 -0700 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: <5268C908DF4D4822819A49286E72D1A5@JGHP> Message-ID: Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 14:47:22 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:47:22 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ask David Rhood on that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan James Gordon To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Jul 29 15:20:37 2009 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:20:37 -0600 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: <5EB8E138B15F422FB98631FEAFCB0177@JGHP> Message-ID: I have missed this discussion except for the "squaws wade to test the river depth" quote, and have also lost (before viewing) the PDF referred to below. Mary Haas wrote a paper on the origin of the word "Wichita" in which she proposed a Muskogean word for 'arbor' as the source. I think Ives wrote something more comprehensive later, perhaps in the Handbook. I'm not in the office much this summer and don't have a way to follow up on that recollection right now. Remember that most English names for all the tribes are rarely self-designations, but rather derived from a language further east, as a result of answers to the question "who lives over there (west of here)?" Historically the archeologists and ethnohistorians identify a number of "bands" with the modern Wichitas, including "Iscani" and others, one of them being spelled "Taovaya" in the modern literature (I would guess that's the "Tow-e-ash" word (Wichita /s/ sounds like [sh] to most English speakers)). I have no clear sense of how those scholars have decided that the people they so name are Wichita, but there are lots of 19th century records of group movements, villages coming and going, and wars of various sorts which use the names. I suppose the fact that they all built grass houses practiced agriculture has some influence. The Wichita self-designation, kirikir'i:s (spelled various ways, usually using "t" for /r/ and "sh" for /s/, and inserting a random apostrophe somewhere to represent the glottal stop), has a traditional etymology of 'raccoon eyed' (kirik'a 'eye', kir'i:s 'raccoon', supposedly describing the practice of drawing tattoo lines out from the corners of the eyes. I have always been suspicious of that because most Wichita compounds are modifier-modified, so the order is backwards from the norm. I have come across a Kitsai word for 'person' which is kirika, however, and have speculated that that's the first element in this word. The second element would then be hir'i:s 'first', with the compound meaning, logically, 'first people'. The problem with that is that there is no excuse for dropping the /h/, unless it be folk etymology. I'll try to remember to look up Ives's description some time in the next few weeks. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Ask David Rhood on that one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryan James Gordon > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism > > > Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than > Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, > though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 17:09:00 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:09:00 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With no detraction from David's etymology below, the Pawnee word for the Wichita People is similarly: Kirikuruks ("Bear Eyes"). ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism > > I have missed this discussion except for the "squaws wade to test the > river depth" quote, and have also lost (before viewing) the PDF referred > to below. Mary Haas wrote a paper on the origin of the word "Wichita" in > which she proposed a Muskogean word for 'arbor' as the source. I think > Ives wrote something more comprehensive later, perhaps in the Handbook. > I'm not in the office much this summer and don't have a way to follow up > on that recollection right now. Remember that most English names for all > the tribes are rarely self-designations, but rather derived from a > language further east, as a result of answers to the question "who lives > over there (west of here)?" > > Historically the archeologists and ethnohistorians identify a number of > "bands" with the modern Wichitas, including "Iscani" and others, one of > them being spelled "Taovaya" in the modern literature (I would guess > that's the "Tow-e-ash" word (Wichita /s/ sounds like [sh] to most English > speakers)). I have no clear sense of how those scholars have decided that > the people they so name are Wichita, but there are lots of 19th century > records of group movements, villages coming and going, and wars of various > sorts which use the names. I suppose the fact that they all built grass > houses practiced agriculture has some influence. > > The Wichita self-designation, kirikir'i:s (spelled various ways, usually > using "t" for /r/ and "sh" for /s/, and inserting a random apostrophe > somewhere to represent the glottal stop), has a traditional etymology of > 'raccoon eyed' (kirik'a 'eye', kir'i:s 'raccoon', supposedly describing > the practice of drawing tattoo lines out from the corners of the eyes. I > have always been suspicious of that because most Wichita compounds are > modifier-modified, so the order is backwards from the norm. I have come > across a Kitsai word for 'person' which is kirika, however, and have > speculated that that's the first element in this word. The second element > would then be hir'i:s 'first', with the compound meaning, logically, > 'first people'. The problem with that is that there is no excuse for > dropping the /h/, unless it be folk etymology. > > I'll try to remember to look up Ives's description some time in the next > few weeks. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > >> Ask David Rhood on that one. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bryan James Gordon >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than >> Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, >> though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Mon Jul 6 17:27:17 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:27:17 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From george.wilmes at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 20:47:52 2009 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:47:52 -0500 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs In-Reply-To: <4A51DF950200007300245C07@gw004.cc.uregina.ca> Message-ID: Hi Emily, I don't know if you have already checked Einaudi's grammar of Biloxi, but in section 741 on pages 106-107 there are a few examples that meet your criteria. (Please see the attached; sorry for the poor quality of the copy.) George Wilmes NEIU On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Emily Schudel wrote: > Hi everyone. > > It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life > kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my > pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically > Nakoda and Stoney). > > Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota > dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning > of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was > wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs > with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. > I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by > searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I > can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding > the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! ?I > think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think > of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections > to see if anything pops up. > > Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they > exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good > sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the > literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. > > In the meantime, I will keep searching... > > Thanks! > > Emily > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: reduplication in Biloxi.doc Type: application/msword Size: 168960 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Mon Jul 6 21:37:25 2009 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:37:25 -0500 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Emily, Welcome back! Stoney is very important because there is so little in print on it. I assume you probably have Linda Cumberland's excellent dissertation on Assiniboine. I'll look at my Kansa and Quapaw data to see if I have any of what you're looking for. I don't recall any instances off hand, but the Dhegiha languages don't make as much use of reduplication as Dakotan. Best of luck with your work. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Emily Schudel Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 12:27 PM To: SIOUAN at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From linguista at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 18:31:20 2009 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:31:20 -0700 Subject: ega=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=81=BF_?= compounds in Omaha and Ponca Message-ID: Howdy all, especially Dhegihanists! Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the various uses of the e+ga?morphemes together in Ponca or Omaha (or any other Dhegiha language)? As we all know, this combination occurs in conjunctions, adverbs, referential pronominal-thingies and verbs of various predicative and quotative sorts, and there is debate as to whether ga? is a single morpheme given nifty collocations like ??gima? "I do thus". Anyone got a list as a starting point for further investigation? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Thu Jul 9 19:04:43 2009 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: ega=?EUC-KR?Q?=A9=FA_?= compounds in Omaha and Ponca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bryan, A few years ago, we did a project with our second year Omaha students to analyze Dorsey texts and make a running glossary/dictionary from them. I think we got through about the first ten chapters before the class ended or somebody said "Enough!" Here's what I have in my side file for gaN. (r = ledh; c = esh; q = voiceless velar fricative; E = e-breve; ' = accent; ? = glottal stop) gaN and; so e'gaN so; like that; thus akHe'gaN he was like (a tempter) ame'gaN something like them (we's?a kHE ame'gaN - a snake or something) egaN' the aforementioned having happened, ... egaN' DO (cut it up)! Urgent, but polite, command adverb. e'degaN but re'gaN thus caN gaN for no special reason caNqti gaN' just as it happened I'm sure that barely scratches the surface, but it suggests a little of the range. Rory Bryan James Gordon Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/09/2009 01:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject ega? compounds in Omaha and Ponca Howdy all, especially Dhegihanists! Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the various uses of the e+ga? morphemes together in Ponca or Omaha (or any other Dhegiha language)? As we all know, this combination occurs in conjunctions, adverbs, referential pronominal-thingies and verbs of various predicative and quotative sorts, and there is debate as to whether ga? is a single morpheme given nifty collocations like ??gima? "I do thus". Anyone got a list as a starting point for further investigation? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Fri Jul 10 23:36:08 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:36:08 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi! Thanks for the welcome back. It's good to be digging back into the work! I do have Linda's dissertation - it's a great source of details and data. It really is hard to find good examples that are glossed though...very frustrating! Thanks! I will probably "see" you again online. Have a good summer! Emily >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/06/09 3:37 PM >>> Emily, Welcome back! Stoney is very important because there is so little in print on it. I assume you probably have Linda Cumberland's excellent dissertation on Assiniboine. I'll look at my Kansa and Quapaw data to see if I have any of what you're looking for. I don't recall any instances off hand, but the Dhegiha languages don't make as much use of reduplication as Dakotan. Best of luck with your work. Bob Rankin ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Emily Schudel Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 12:27 PM To: SIOUAN at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Hi everyone. It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically Nakoda and Stoney). Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections to see if anything pops up. Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. In the meantime, I will keep searching... Thanks! Emily From Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca Fri Jul 10 23:41:08 2009 From: Emily.Schudel at uregina.ca (Emily Schudel) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:41:08 -0600 Subject: Reduplicated Active verbs Message-ID: Hi! Thanks for the information. I am having trouble viewing the file though...I am opening the document, but it won't let me see the image file that's inserted. Would it be possible for you to send the image file as a stand alone file? Thanks again!! Emily Emily Schudel Project Manager/Distance Learning Consultant/Linguist >>> George Wilmes 07/06/09 2:47 PM >>> Hi Emily, I don't know if you have already checked Einaudi's grammar of Biloxi, but in section 741 on pages 106-107 there are a few examples that meet your criteria. (Please see the attached; sorry for the poor quality of the copy.) George Wilmes NEIU On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Emily Schudel wrote: > Hi everyone. > > It has been a really long time since I've posted on this list...life > kind of took over for awhile, but now I am back and immersed in my > pursuit for a PhD...back working on the Dakota dialects (specifically > Nakoda and Stoney). > > Anyway, I am presently working on a paper on reduplication in the Dakota > dialects (specifically with regards to the relationship of the meaning > of reduplication and the status of the verb and its subject) and was > wondering if anyone had examples of reduplicated transitive active verbs > with inanimate objects - with glosses - in any of the Dakota dialects. > I have found many example of reduplicated active (and stative) verbs by > searching in every published grammar and related thesis/dissertation I > can find, and in many, many assorted articles, but it seems that finding > the actual meaning of the reduplications is quite another matter! I > think I have pretty much exhausted every avenue I can think > of...although I am still plowing through a variety of text collections > to see if anything pops up. > > Now that I think about it, I would also take examples like this (if they > exist) from other Siouan languages too if anyone can recommend some good > sources of reduplication examples, since I am not as familiar with the > literature for Siouan languages other than the Dakota group. > > In the meantime, I will keep searching... > > Thanks! > > Emily > From johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Sun Jul 26 21:37:28 2009 From: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:37:28 +0200 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: This is an automatic response to your mail. I am out of office from July, 22 until August, 13. In case of an emergency, please contact Mrs Stitz (ingrid.stitz at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de) Sincerly, Johannes Helmbrecht From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 21:30:25 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:30:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Caron" To: "Rankin, Robert L" ; "Justin McBride" Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" ; "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism >I found this reference on line, but can't get to the library to check it >out right now (I'm home in bed with a bad back). > "Origin of the Name Wichita" Zoe A. Tilghman American Anthropologist, New > Series, Vol. 43, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul. - Sep., 1941), pp. 488-489 > Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/663168 > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > To: "Mike Caron" ; "Justin McBride" > ; "Jimm GoodTracks" > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:23 AM > Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism > > >>A friend of mine at CU works with the Wichita tribe on their language >>program. I'll see what I can find out. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Mike Caron [mailto:mcaron at sunflower.com] >> Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 12:13 PM >> To: Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride; Jimm GoodTracks >> Cc: Kindscher, Kelly >> Subject: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Apparently the waist/crotch/ass deep nonsense has drifted from Wakarusa >> all the way south to Wichita! I stumbled across the following entry in a >> book that was donated to the Douglas County Correctional Facility library >> recently: >> >> Wichita. The Wichita Indians, and thus Wichita, Kansas, >> which is named for the tribe, may take its name from the >> tribe's word wichita (waist deep). One old story, which I can't >> verify, says that these Indians pushed their squaws out into >> rivers to see how deep they were. if a place was safe for crossing, >> the squaws would cry out "wichita" to the relatively timid >> braves on shore, who proceeded to ford the river. If they sank, >> presumably, the river wasn't safe to cross. >> >> Robert Hendrickson, QPB ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. Facts On >> File, (Quality Paperback Books) second edition (1998?), p. 775. >> >> I wonder where Hendrickson got his "facts" on file. >> Mike >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 > 05:58:00 > From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 21:29:38 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:29:38 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kindscher, Kelly" To: "Jimm GoodTracks" ; "Mike Caron" ; "Rankin, Robert L" ; "Justin McBride" Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism Here it is as a .pdf Kelly ________________________________ From: Jimm GoodTracks [mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com] Sent: Sun 7/26/2009 1:41 PM To: Mike Caron; Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride Cc: Kindscher, Kelly Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism Unable to access it without some kind of membership. Is it possible you can scan it and sent it? It appears to be only 2 pages. jgt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Caron" > To: "Rankin, Robert L" >; "Justin McBride" > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" >; "Jimm GoodTracks" > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Waist deep in sexist racism >I found this reference on line, but can't get to the library to check it >out > right now (I'm home in bed with a bad back). > "Origin of the Name Wichita" Zoe A. Tilghman American Anthropologist, New > Series, Vol. 43, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul. - Sep., 1941), pp. 488-489 > Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/663168 > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rankin, Robert L" > > To: "Mike Caron" >; > "Justin McBride" > >; "Jimm > GoodTracks" > > Cc: "Kindscher, Kelly" > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:23 AM > Subject: RE: Waist deep in sexist racism > > >>A friend of mine at CU works with the Wichita tribe on their language >>program. I'll see what I can find out. >> >> Bob >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Mike Caron [mailto:mcaron at sunflower.com] >> Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 12:13 PM >> To: Rankin, Robert L; Justin McBride; Jimm GoodTracks >> Cc: Kindscher, Kelly >> Subject: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Apparently the waist/crotch/ass deep nonsense has drifted from Wakarusa >> all the way south to Wichita! I stumbled across the following entry in a >> book that was donated to the Douglas County Correctional Facility library >> recently: >> >> Wichita. The Wichita Indians, and thus Wichita, Kansas, >> which is named for the tribe, may take its name from the >> tribe's word wichita (waist deep). One old story, which I can't >> verify, says that these Indians pushed their squaws out into >> rivers to see how deep they were. if a place was safe for crossing, >> the squaws would cry out "wichita" to the relatively timid >> braves on shore, who proceeded to ford the river. If they sank, >> presumably, the river wasn't safe to cross. >> >> Robert Hendrickson, QPB ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. Facts On >> File, (Quality Paperback Books) second edition (1998?), p. 775. >> >> I wonder where Hendrickson got his "facts" on file. >> Mike >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 > 05:58:00 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tilghman Wichita Name Origin.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 309102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linguista at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 21:52:52 2009 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:52:52 -0700 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: <5268C908DF4D4822819A49286E72D1A5@JGHP> Message-ID: Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 14:47:22 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:47:22 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ask David Rhood on that one. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan James Gordon To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Wed Jul 29 15:20:37 2009 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:20:37 -0600 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: <5EB8E138B15F422FB98631FEAFCB0177@JGHP> Message-ID: I have missed this discussion except for the "squaws wade to test the river depth" quote, and have also lost (before viewing) the PDF referred to below. Mary Haas wrote a paper on the origin of the word "Wichita" in which she proposed a Muskogean word for 'arbor' as the source. I think Ives wrote something more comprehensive later, perhaps in the Handbook. I'm not in the office much this summer and don't have a way to follow up on that recollection right now. Remember that most English names for all the tribes are rarely self-designations, but rather derived from a language further east, as a result of answers to the question "who lives over there (west of here)?" Historically the archeologists and ethnohistorians identify a number of "bands" with the modern Wichitas, including "Iscani" and others, one of them being spelled "Taovaya" in the modern literature (I would guess that's the "Tow-e-ash" word (Wichita /s/ sounds like [sh] to most English speakers)). I have no clear sense of how those scholars have decided that the people they so name are Wichita, but there are lots of 19th century records of group movements, villages coming and going, and wars of various sorts which use the names. I suppose the fact that they all built grass houses practiced agriculture has some influence. The Wichita self-designation, kirikir'i:s (spelled various ways, usually using "t" for /r/ and "sh" for /s/, and inserting a random apostrophe somewhere to represent the glottal stop), has a traditional etymology of 'raccoon eyed' (kirik'a 'eye', kir'i:s 'raccoon', supposedly describing the practice of drawing tattoo lines out from the corners of the eyes. I have always been suspicious of that because most Wichita compounds are modifier-modified, so the order is backwards from the norm. I have come across a Kitsai word for 'person' which is kirika, however, and have speculated that that's the first element in this word. The second element would then be hir'i:s 'first', with the compound meaning, logically, 'first people'. The problem with that is that there is no excuse for dropping the /h/, unless it be folk etymology. I'll try to remember to look up Ives's description some time in the next few weeks. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > Ask David Rhood on that one. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryan James Gordon > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism > > > Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than > Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, > though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 17:09:00 2009 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:09:00 -0500 Subject: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With no detraction from David's etymology below, the Pawnee word for the Wichita People is similarly: Kirikuruks ("Bear Eyes"). ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROOD DAVID S" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism > > I have missed this discussion except for the "squaws wade to test the > river depth" quote, and have also lost (before viewing) the PDF referred > to below. Mary Haas wrote a paper on the origin of the word "Wichita" in > which she proposed a Muskogean word for 'arbor' as the source. I think > Ives wrote something more comprehensive later, perhaps in the Handbook. > I'm not in the office much this summer and don't have a way to follow up > on that recollection right now. Remember that most English names for all > the tribes are rarely self-designations, but rather derived from a > language further east, as a result of answers to the question "who lives > over there (west of here)?" > > Historically the archeologists and ethnohistorians identify a number of > "bands" with the modern Wichitas, including "Iscani" and others, one of > them being spelled "Taovaya" in the modern literature (I would guess > that's the "Tow-e-ash" word (Wichita /s/ sounds like [sh] to most English > speakers)). I have no clear sense of how those scholars have decided that > the people they so name are Wichita, but there are lots of 19th century > records of group movements, villages coming and going, and wars of various > sorts which use the names. I suppose the fact that they all built grass > houses practiced agriculture has some influence. > > The Wichita self-designation, kirikir'i:s (spelled various ways, usually > using "t" for /r/ and "sh" for /s/, and inserting a random apostrophe > somewhere to represent the glottal stop), has a traditional etymology of > 'raccoon eyed' (kirik'a 'eye', kir'i:s 'raccoon', supposedly describing > the practice of drawing tattoo lines out from the corners of the eyes. I > have always been suspicious of that because most Wichita compounds are > modifier-modified, so the order is backwards from the norm. I have come > across a Kitsai word for 'person' which is kirika, however, and have > speculated that that's the first element in this word. The second element > would then be hir'i:s 'first', with the compound meaning, logically, > 'first people'. The problem with that is that there is no excuse for > dropping the /h/, unless it be folk etymology. > > I'll try to remember to look up Ives's description some time in the next > few weeks. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: > >> Ask David Rhood on that one. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bryan James Gordon >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:52 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: Waist deep in sexist racism >> >> >> Well, that pdf seems to have a much more plausible story than >> Hendrickson's. Shame Hendrickson doesn't read anthropology. What, >> though, does the "Tow-e-ash" referred to in Tilghman mean? >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: