From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 02:32:42 2009
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:32:42 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SAT.31.OCT.2009.193242.0700.>

Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
 
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
 
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

 
There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
 
 
 
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
 
kle: = awake
 
 


Scott P. Collins
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Nov  1 16:25:06 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 10:25:06 -0600
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.102506.0600.>

The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.  Long  vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.  All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.
 
The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.  It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.  P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".  KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".  I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.  
 
Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.  I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.
 
Best,
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
 
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
 
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

 
There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
 
 
 
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
 
kle: = awake
 
 


Scott P. Collins


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 19:16:02 2009
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:16:02 -0800
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5919@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.111602.0800.>

So apparently one could write these: tookhaa mi hiiyata and tookhaa mi klee, if I'm reading this right.
 
Dave

--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 8:25 AM


The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.  Long  vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.  All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.

The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.  It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.  P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".  KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".  I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.  

Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.  I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.

Best,

Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.

the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata

mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep


There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.



Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?

kle: = awake




Scott P. Collins




      
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Nov  1 23:03:04 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:03:04 -0600
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.170304.0600.>

In addition to the bibliography I sent earlier, add:
 
Swanton, John R.  1943.  Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley. American Anthropologist (45):49-66.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Sun 11/1/2009 10:25 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.  Long  vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.  All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.
 
The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.  It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.  P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".  KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".  I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.  
 
Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.  I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.
 
Best,
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
 
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
 
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

 
There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
 
 
 
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
 
kle: = awake
 
 


Scott P. Collins


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 00:16:45 2009
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:16:45 -0800
Subject: Construction of a Prayer
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.161645.0800.>

Pila huk Ekuni                        (thank you Grandfather or God)
Pila huk Mona Ama Henai       (thank you Mother Earth)
Pila huk Ati Matoi                   (thank you Father in the Sky House)
Pila huk Mon Eke Topi            (thank you Four Directions) 
Pila huk Tuhaklu icici              (thank you Thunder Beings)
Pila huk Maklu                       (thank you Thunder Bird)
Pila huk Kcimbai Nonee           (thank you to the Pipe Bowl)
Pila huk Yihistik                            (thank you to the Stems)
Pila huk KcipaI                               (thank you for the Sacred Pipe)
Pila huk Mia                                    (thank you Sun)
Pila huk Minosa                             (thank you Moon)
Pila huk oka hoc ne de wa ha, pila huk Oho
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks)

 
You said, "All Siouan languages normally put the verb at the very end of the sentence.  Adjectives follow nouns.  Adverbs and direct objects come before the verb."

So based on this, is the following the proper way to construct this prayer?
 
Ekuni huk pila                        (thank you Grandfather or God)
Mona Ama Henai huk pila       (thank you Mother Earth)
Ati Matoi huk pila                   (thank you Father in the Sky House)
Maniankle Topa huk pila            (thank you Four Directions) 
Tuhaklu-icici huk pila              (thank you Thunder Beings)
Maklu huk pila                       (thank you Thunder Bird)
Kcimbai Nonee huk pila          (thank you to the Pipe Bowl)
Yihistik huk pila                     (thank you to the Stems)
KcipaI huk pila                       (thank you for the Sacred Pipe)
Mi huk pila                           (thank you Sun)
Minosa huk pila                      (thank you Moon)

Oka hoc ne de wa ha huk pila, Oho huk pila
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks)


Scott P. Collins

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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Nov  4 16:22:32 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:22:32 -0600
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.102232.0600.>

I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account from plains tribes?

It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat is on fuzzy caterpillars.

Bob

-----Original Message-----

Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians 
consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?

(I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]

  -- Sally


From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU  Wed Nov  4 16:46:55 2009
From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:46:55 -0700
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5920@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.094655.0700.>

One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking 
stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did 
the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently 
there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters 
which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the 
moment, so someone else should verify this.

Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account from plains tribes?
>
> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>
> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>
>  -- Sally
>


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Nov  4 18:39:19 2009
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:39:19 -0600
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0911040944010.28745@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.123919.0600.>

Nice, David!

My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the 
English side.  On the Osage side we have:

ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
      child gets the answer to his question.

Hope this is a help to computer science.

Rory





ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU> 
Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
11/04/2009 10:50 AM
Please respond to
siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU


To
siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.







One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking 
stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did 
the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently 
there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters 
which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the 
moment, so someone else should verify this.

Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking 
people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account 
from plains tribes?
>
> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can 
tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat 
is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>
> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>
>  -- Sally
>

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From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU  Wed Nov  4 18:44:16 2009
From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFA0CF2.74ABA725-ON86257664.00659BDC-86257664.00667A02@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.114416.0700.>

Interesting!!  As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
(without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
one or another of its legs to answer us.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:

> Nice, David!
>
> My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
> English side.  On the Osage side we have:
>
> ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
>      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
>      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
>        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
>      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
>        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
>      child gets the answer to his question.
>
> Hope this is a help to computer science.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> 11/04/2009 10:50 AM
> Please respond to
> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
>
>
> To
> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
> stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently
> there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
> which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
> moment, so someone else should verify this.
>
> Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
>> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
> people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
> from plains tribes?
>>
>> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
> tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
> is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
>> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
>> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
>> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
>> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
>> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
>> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>>
>> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
>> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
>> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
>> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>>
>>  -- Sally
>>
>
>


From ishna00 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  5 03:32:14 2009
From: ishna00 at hotmail.com (ThodeCharles)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 21:32:14 -0600
Subject: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0911041142390.28745@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.213214.0600.>


It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the bottom: tse'howainge

C.Thode

> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
> From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting!!  As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
> longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
> (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
> one or another of its legs to answer us.
> 
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
> 
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
> 
> > Nice, David!
> >
> > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
> > English side.  On the Osage side we have:
> >
> > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
> >      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
> >      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
> >        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
> >      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
> >        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
> >      child gets the answer to his question.
> >
> > Hope this is a help to computer science.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > 11/04/2009 10:50 AM
> > Please respond to
> > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> >
> >
> > To
> > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
> > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently
> > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
> > which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
> > moment, so someone else should verify this.
> >
> > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
> >
> > David S. Rood
> > Dept. of Linguistics
> > Univ. of Colorado
> > 295 UCB
> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > USA
> > rood at colorado.edu
> >
> > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> >
> >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
> > people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
> > from plains tribes?
> >>
> >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
> > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
> > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> >> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> >> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
> >>
> >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
> >>
> >>  -- Sally
> >>
> >
> >
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
윈도우 라이브 퀴즈풀고~선물 받으세요~
http://windowslive.msn.co.kr/w7
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Nov 10 00:53:26 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:53:26 -0600
Subject: FW: Picture Identification
Message-ID: <MON.9.NOV.2009.185326.0600.>

A query from Ives Goddard (Smithsonian retired) about possible Chiwere.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Goddard, Ives [mailto:GODDARDI at si.edu]
Sent: Mon 11/9/2009 9:18 AM
To: 'Koontz John E'; Rankin, Robert L
Subject: FW: Picture Identification
 
Siouanists:

I read these names as "Tahawarra" and "Macapaba" or (with long ess) perhaps "Macassaba".

Do they ring any bells as Chiwere?

Regards,
Ives

From: Mike Dickey [mailto:mike.dickey at dnr.mo.gov]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:10 PM
To: Goddard, Ives
Subject: Picture Identification


Ives, I hope this note finds you well.

In the Smithsonian anthropological archives I found two silhouettes of Indian  men by Rembrandt Peale from 1805.  The archives tentatively identifies them as "Missouris".  The name written in script on one image appears to be Macapaba, Macahpaha or possibly Macahpasa.  The second individual is named Tahawarra.   I asked an Ioway who is the most fluent speaker of Chiwere I know if he recognized these names.  He could not place any Siouan meaning to their names other than paha=hill and ta=deer.  Of course these spellings may be very bad attempts to spell their names phonetically and so much of the language has been lost.   Since these two men were part of the delegation led by Amos Stoddard from Louisiana Territory to meet President Jefferson, it is possible they were actually Sac or Pawnee and not Missouris. I do not have any contacts in either of those nations that I can ask.

I've attached the images.  Are you familiar with the names belonging to any particular language group?   If they would turn out to be Missouris, it will be a major find for my project. Thanks,



Mike Dickey
Site Administrator
Arrow Rock State Historic Site
P.O. Box 1
Arrow Rock, MO 65320
Phone:  660-837-3330  Fax:  660-837-3300

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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Nov 14 04:06:18 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:06:18 -0600
Subject: FW: Faculty Position in Linguistics with a specialization in
 Native American Indian linguistics, University of North Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.13.NOV.2009.220618.0600.>

From: ivy at ivydoak.com [mailto:ivy at ivydoak.com]
Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 2:25 PM
To: ssila2 at gmail.com
Subject: Faculty Position in Linguistics with a specialization in Native American Indian linguistics, University of North Texas
 
SSILA Members:

The University of North Texas has just announced an opening for a tenure
track position in Native American linguistics.  Applications will begin
being considered on November 20, 2009.  The short application period
prompted this special message.

The job ad is attached to this mail.





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From kdshea at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 08:21:50 2009
From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:21:50 -0600
Subject: Parrish Williams
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.022150.0600.>

Thank-you, all, for your kind condolences, both on the list and off.  I hope to respond to you individually. The attendance at Uncle Parrish's funeral--an all-night meeting of the NAC, followed by a traditional noon meal, giveaway, and ceremony at the cemetery--was attended by a great number of people from far and near, including NAC members from among the Comanches, Omahas, and Dine people.  I thought that both of write-ups in the paper that I saw were exceptionally good.  Thanks, Jonathan, for sending the link below.

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:08 AM
  Subject: Re: Parrish Williams


        http://www.poncacitynews.com/templates/65894112360351.bsp


         
         

        "If you love your freedom, thank a Vet."


        --- On Mon, 10/5/09, David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:


          From: David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: Parrish Williams
          To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
          Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 11:09 PM


                I am sorry to hear about the death of Parrish Williams.  I didn't know him personally, but I've heard Kathy talk about him many times.  Kathy, let me know if you need anything, and have a safe trip back to OK.

                Dave

                --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Kathleen Shea <kdshea at aol.com> wrote:


                  From: Kathleen Shea <kdshea at aol.com>
                  Subject: Re: Parrish Williams
                  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
                  Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:51 PM


                  Thank-you, Bob, for posting this on the Siouan list for me and, Jill, for your kind comments.  I don't have it in me to write much at this time, but I will try to give a fuller report to the list later.  I'll copy here what I wrote tonight to my family in California to let them know what has ocurred:

                  Parrish Williams--"Uncle" Parrish--passed away Sunday morning peacefully in his sleep surrounded by family.  He was 96.  I had just gotten to Ponca City Saturday night.  I went to a prayer meeting led by the Methodist minister at his home last night, where the funeral will be Wednesday.  There will be an all-night meeting of the Native American Church at the home Tuesday night. (Uncle Parrish was very ecumenical.)  As is traditional, the funeral takes place on the fourth day, with a feast, give-away, and a graveside ceremony.

                  His death was timely but of course still a shock.  I am saddened, will miss him, and learned a lot from him.  His family are good people and treated me very well, accepting me as one of the family.  I'm writing this from Lawrence, where I drove today to try to get my 2008 taxes in the mail, and I'll drive back down to Ponca City for the supper before the NAC meeting tomorrow.  I just wanted you to know what's happening to me and my whereabouts.  If you want to read his obituary, it should appear in tomorrow afternoon's Ponca City News at www.poncacitynews.com.  Please spread the word to others if you like, as I'm afraid of leaving someone out if I try to add more e-mail addresses.

                  Jill, I just want to add that, when I first went to Oklahoma in the summer of 1994 to start working with Uncle Parrish, he told me that it was due largely to Grandpa Truman's encouragement and good experience working with you, Lori Stanley, and Louanna Furbee that he decided to meet me and ultimately committed himself to working with me as long as I stayed with the project. He proved to be an extremely intelligent and excellent teacher. Grandpa Truman was about ten years older than Uncle Parrish and was one of his mentors.  I would say that they were both magnanimous, interested in the welfare of their people, and true citizens of the world.  Another strong mentor for Uncle Parrish was his grandpa (?) Ed Packhorse, who gave him his fireplace.  Uncle Parrish always aspired to live as long as Grandpa Ed, and he did!  (Grandpa Truman lived to be about the same age as both of them, too.)  I'm very lucky to have had Uncle Parrish as my teacher, friend, and adopted relative for as long as I have--fifteen years.

                  Kathy
                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    From: Jill Greer 
                    To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
                    Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: Parrish Williams



                    And a truly wonderful human being.  

                    I count it one of the privileges of my life to have met Parrish and been a guest in his tipi.  

                    One of our Iowa elders, Arthur Lightfoot had an adoptive relation to Parrish's late wife, so that was the context for initially meeting him.  He and Grampa Truman Dailey (Otoe-Missouria) were called upon to fly to Portland (?) to testify for Sen. Inouwe's committee on religious freedom after the Smith vs. Oregon case, and both of these elder roadman's testimonies appear in the wonderful Kifaru Production documentary Peyote Road.  He was also featured in  Alice Anderton's "Word Path" program, which was such a wonderful episode I often use it in my classes.  

                    Jill 

                    >>> "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> 10/5/2009 10:41 AM >>>
                    All,

                    Kathy Shea sends the sad news that Parrish Williams has died.  He was a fluent Ponca speaker, a tribal elder and an important figure in the Native American Church.

                    Bob
               

       
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From kdshea at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 08:30:26 2009
From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:30:26 -0600
Subject: a strange query -- off topic.
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.023026.0600.>

One of my Ponca consultants, who prefers to remain unnamed, tells me that the word for 'stick beetle' in Ponca is /ttee etta waa'bazu/ (literally, '[he] points in the direction of the buffalo').

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ThodeCharles 
  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:32 PM
  Subject: RE: a strange query -- off topic.


  It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the bottom: tse'howainge

  C.Thode

  > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
  > From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
  > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Interesting!! As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
  > longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
  > (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
  > one or another of its legs to answer us.
  > 
  > David S. Rood
  > Dept. of Linguistics
  > Univ. of Colorado
  > 295 UCB
  > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
  > USA
  > rood at colorado.edu
  > 
  &g! t; On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
  > 
  > > Nice, David!
  > >
  > > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
  > > English side. On the Osage side we have:
  > >
  > > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
  > > ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
  > > When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
  > > it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
  > > buffalo?" Then the little bug will point straight
  > > ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
  > > child gets the answer to his question.
  > >
  > > Hope this is a help to computer science.
  > >
  > > Rory
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
  > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > > 11/04/2009! 10:50 AM
  > > Please respond to
  > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > >
  > >
  > > To
  > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > > cc
  > >
  > > Subject
  > > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
  > > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
  > > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo'). Apparently
  > > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
  > > which way to go. My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
  > > moment, so someone else should verify this.
  > >
  > > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
  > >
  > > David S. Rood
  > > Dept. of Linguistics
  > > Uni! v. of Colorado
  > > 295 UCB
  > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
  > > USA
  > > rood at colorado.edu
  > >
  > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
  > >
  > >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
  > > people in Montana. Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
  > > from plains tribes?
  > >>
  > >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
  > > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
  > > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
  > >>
  > >> Bob
  > >>
  > >> -----Original Message-----
  > >>
  > >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
  > >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
  > >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
  >! ; >> antennae waved. Can you shed any light on this? Have
  > >> you heard it? Did someone do this, and if so, who? And if
  > >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
  > >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
  > >>
  > >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
  > >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
  > >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
  > >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
  > >>
  > >> -- Sally
  > >>
  > >
  > >


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ??????쇱?釉??댁??????Ъ 諛???몄?~ 諛??媛?? 
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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Mon Nov 23 14:52:40 2009
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:52:40 -0700
Subject: Walking sticks
In-Reply-To: <001d01ca6c17$35e491a0$4001a8c0@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.075240.0700.>

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytraandantenna/USInsects/
Here is a link to get a visual on your walking sticks. Which
Of the four listed are you referring to?

We were just discussing on PIStwo how Crows and a few other animals  
always point towards game. Never off topic to
understand the habits a language is used.
 From Billy's iTouch

On Nov 23, 2009, at 1:30 AM, "Kathleen Shea" <kdshea at aol.com> wrote:

> One of my Ponca consultants, who prefers to remain unnamed, tells me  
> that the word for 'stick beetle' in Ponca is /ttee etta waa'bazu/  
> (literally, '[he] points in the direction of the buffalo').
>
> Kathy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ThodeCharles
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:32 PM
> Subject: RE: a strange query -- off topic.
>
> It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the  
> bottom: tse'howainge
>
> C.Thode
>
> > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
> > From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
> > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting!! As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy
> > longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows  
> going"
> > (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would  
> stick out
> > one or another of its legs to answer us.
> >
> > David S. Rood
> > Dept. of Linguistics
> > Univ. of Colorado
> > 295 UCB
> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > USA
> > rood at colorado.edu
> >
> &g! t; On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
> >
> > > Nice, David!
> > >
> > > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick  
> (insect)' on the
> > > English side. On the Osage side we have:
> > >
> > > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
> > > ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
> > > When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
> > > it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
> > > buffalo?" Then the little bug will point straight
> > > ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
> > > child gets the answer to his question.
> > >
> > > Hope this is a help to computer science.
> > >
> > > Rory
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > > 11/04/2009! 10:50 AM
> > > Please respond to
> > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > >
> > >
> > > To
> > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > > cc
> > >
> > > Subject
> > > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for  
> 'walking
> > > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> > > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  
> Apparently
> > > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the  
> hunters
> > > which way to go. My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not  
> handy at the
> > > moment, so someone else should verify this.
> > >
> > > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
> > >
> > > David S. Rood
> > > Dept. of Linguistics
> > > Uni! v. of Colorado
> > > 295 UCB
> > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > > USA
> > > rood at colorado.edu
> > >
> > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > >
> > >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish- 
> speaking
> > > people in Montana. Has anyone heard anything like her beetle  
> account
> > > from plains tribes?
> > >>
> > >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say  
> you can
> > > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how  
> thick the coat
> > > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >>
> > >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> > >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> > >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> >! ; >> antennae waved. Can you shed any light on this? Have
> > >> you heard it? Did someone do this, and if so, who? And if
> > >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> > >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
> > >>
> > >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> > >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> > >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> > >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science.  
> Bob]
> > >>
> > >> -- Sally
> > >>
> > >
> > >
>
> ?àÎèÑ???ºÏù¥Î∏??¥Ï¶à?ÄÍ≥??†Î¨º Î∞õÏúº? 
> ∏Ïöî~ Î∞îΰúÍ∞ÄÍ∏?
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From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 02:32:42 2009
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:32:42 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SAT.31.OCT.2009.193242.0700.>

Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
?
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
?
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

?
There is a lowercase?"h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
?
?
?
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
?
kle: = awake
?
?


Scott P. Collins
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Nov  1 16:25:06 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 10:25:06 -0600
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.102506.0600.>

The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.  Long  vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.  All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.
 
The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.  It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.  P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".  KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".  I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.  
 
Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.  I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.
 
Best,
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
 
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
 
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

 
There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
 
 
 
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
 
kle: = awake
 
 


Scott P. Collins


From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 19:16:02 2009
From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:16:02 -0800
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5919@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.111602.0800.>

So apparently?one could write these: tookhaa mi hiiyata and tookhaa mi klee, if I'm reading this right.
?
Dave

--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 8:25 AM


The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.? Long? vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.? All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.

The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.? It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.? P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".? KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".? I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.? 

Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.? I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.

Best,

Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.

the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata

mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep


There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.



Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?

kle: = awake




Scott P. Collins




      
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Nov  1 23:03:04 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:03:04 -0600
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.170304.0600.>

In addition to the bibliography I sent earlier, add:
 
Swanton, John R.  1943.  Siouan Tribes and the Ohio Valley. American Anthropologist (45):49-66.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Rankin, Robert L
Sent: Sun 11/1/2009 10:25 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


The colon after a vowel means that vowel is long, i.e., the pronunciation is drawn out.  Long  vowels are typically about one and a half times as long in duration as short vowels.  All the Siouan languages except Dakota have long and short vowels.
 
The "h" after p, t, ch, or k marks aspiration.  It is like an actual H sound after the consonant.  P with the little H would be like the ph of "loophole".  KH, as in tokha, would be like "backhoe".  I normally just use the letter "h" rather than the raised h.  
 
Your parse of the words for 'west' look right to me.  I don't know the 'east' term, but you obviously have the right idea.
 
Best,
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Sat 10/31/2009 9:32 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Directionals


Going back to the question on the directional words in Tutelo-Saponi. I have taken the advice here and come up with the following let me know if it is correct or not.
 
the West = to:ka: mi hi:yata
 
mi = sun
to:ka: = where
hi:yata = sleep

 
There is a lowercase "h" between k and a in to:ka: but I do not have a font for that nor do I understand the ":" part of the word.
 
 
 
Also would East then be to:ka: mi kle:?
 
kle: = awake
 
 


Scott P. Collins


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 00:16:45 2009
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:16:45 -0800
Subject: Construction of a Prayer
Message-ID: <SUN.1.NOV.2009.161645.0800.>

Pila huk Ekuni? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (thank you Grandfather or God)
Pila huk Mona Ama Henai? ? ???(thank you Mother Earth)
Pila huk Ati Matoi? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(thank you Father in the Sky House)
Pila huk Mon Eke Topi? ? ? ? ? ? (thank you Four Directions) 
Pila huk Tuhaklu icici? ? ? ? ? ? ? (thank you Thunder Beings)
Pila huk Maklu? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(thank you Thunder Bird)
Pila huk Kcimbai Nonee? ? ? ? ???(thank you to the Pipe Bowl)
Pila huk Yihistik? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (thank you to the Stems)
Pila huk KcipaI? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(thank you for the Sacred Pipe)
Pila huk Mia? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (thank you Sun)
Pila huk Minosa? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(thank you Moon)
Pila huk oka hoc ne de wa ha, pila huk Oho
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks)

?
You said, "All Siouan languages normally put the verb at the very end of the sentence.? Adjectives follow nouns.? Adverbs and direct objects come before the verb."

So based on this, is the following the proper way to construct this prayer?
?
Ekuni huk pila??????????????????????? (thank you Grandfather or God)
Mona Ama Henai?huk pila???????(thank you Mother Earth)
Ati Matoi huk pila???????????????????(thank you Father in the Sky House)
Maniankle Topa huk pila??????????? (thank you Four Directions) 
Tuhaklu-icici huk pila????????????? (thank you Thunder Beings)
Maklu huk pila???????????????????????(thank you Thunder Bird)
Kcimbai Nonee huk pila??????????(thank you to the Pipe Bowl)
Yihistik huk pila???????????????????? (thank you to the Stems)
KcipaI huk pila???????????????????????(thank you for the Sacred Pipe)
Mi huk pila?????????????????????????? (thank you Sun)
Minosa huk pila??????????????????????(thank you Moon)

Oka hoc ne de wa ha huk pila, Oho huk pila
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks)


Scott P. Collins

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From rankin at ku.edu  Wed Nov  4 16:22:32 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:22:32 -0600
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.102232.0600.>

I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account from plains tribes?

It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat is on fuzzy caterpillars.

Bob

-----Original Message-----

Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians 
consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?

(I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]

  -- Sally


From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU  Wed Nov  4 16:46:55 2009
From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:46:55 -0700
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5920@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.094655.0700.>

One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking 
stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did 
the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently 
there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters 
which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the 
moment, so someone else should verify this.

Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account from plains tribes?
>
> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>
> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>
>  -- Sally
>


From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Nov  4 18:39:19 2009
From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:39:19 -0600
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0911040944010.28745@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.123919.0600.>

Nice, David!

My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the 
English side.  On the Osage side we have:

ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
      child gets the answer to his question.

Hope this is a help to computer science.

Rory





ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU> 
Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
11/04/2009 10:50 AM
Please respond to
siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU


To
siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.







One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking 
stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did 
the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently 
there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters 
which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the 
moment, so someone else should verify this.

Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking 
people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account 
from plains tribes?
>
> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can 
tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat 
is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>
> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>
>  -- Sally
>

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From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU  Wed Nov  4 18:44:16 2009
From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
Subject: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFA0CF2.74ABA725-ON86257664.00659BDC-86257664.00667A02@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.114416.0700.>

Interesting!!  As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
(without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
one or another of its legs to answer us.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:

> Nice, David!
>
> My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
> English side.  On the Osage side we have:
>
> ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
>      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
>      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
>        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
>      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
>        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
>      child gets the answer to his question.
>
> Hope this is a help to computer science.
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> 11/04/2009 10:50 AM
> Please respond to
> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
>
>
> To
> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
> stick' in the LaFlesche Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently
> there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
> which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
> moment, so someone else should verify this.
>
> Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
>
>> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
> people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
> from plains tribes?
>>
>> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
> tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
> is on fuzzy caterpillars.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
>> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
>> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
>> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
>> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
>> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
>> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
>>
>> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
>> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
>> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
>> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
>>
>>  -- Sally
>>
>
>


From ishna00 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  5 03:32:14 2009
From: ishna00 at hotmail.com (ThodeCharles)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 21:32:14 -0600
Subject: a strange query -- off topic.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0911041142390.28745@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.NOV.2009.213214.0600.>


It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the bottom: tse'howainge

C.Thode

> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
> From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting!!  As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
> longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
> (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
> one or another of its legs to answer us.
> 
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
> 
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
> 
> > Nice, David!
> >
> > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
> > English side.  On the Osage side we have:
> >
> > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
> >      ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
> >      When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
> >        it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
> >      buffalo?"  Then the little bug will point straight
> >        ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
> >      child gets the answer to his question.
> >
> > Hope this is a help to computer science.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > 11/04/2009 10:50 AM
> > Please respond to
> > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> >
> >
> > To
> > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
> > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  Apparently
> > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
> > which way to go.  My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
> > moment, so someone else should verify this.
> >
> > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
> >
> > David S. Rood
> > Dept. of Linguistics
> > Univ. of Colorado
> > 295 UCB
> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > USA
> > rood at colorado.edu
> >
> > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> >
> >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
> > people in Montana.    Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
> > from plains tribes?
> >>
> >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
> > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
> > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> >> antennae waved.  Can you shed any light on this?  Have
> >> you heard it?  Did someone do this, and if so, who?   And if
> >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
> >>
> >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
> >>
> >>  -- Sally
> >>
> >
> >
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
??? ??? ????~?? ????~
http://windowslive.msn.co.kr/w7
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From rankin at ku.edu  Tue Nov 10 00:53:26 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:53:26 -0600
Subject: FW: Picture Identification
Message-ID: <MON.9.NOV.2009.185326.0600.>

A query from Ives Goddard (Smithsonian retired) about possible Chiwere.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Goddard, Ives [mailto:GODDARDI at si.edu]
Sent: Mon 11/9/2009 9:18 AM
To: 'Koontz John E'; Rankin, Robert L
Subject: FW: Picture Identification
 
Siouanists:

I read these names as "Tahawarra" and "Macapaba" or (with long ess) perhaps "Macassaba".

Do they ring any bells as Chiwere?

Regards,
Ives

From: Mike Dickey [mailto:mike.dickey at dnr.mo.gov]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:10 PM
To: Goddard, Ives
Subject: Picture Identification


Ives, I hope this note finds you well.

In the Smithsonian anthropological archives I found two silhouettes of Indian  men by Rembrandt Peale from 1805.  The archives tentatively identifies them as "Missouris".  The name written in script on one image appears to be Macapaba, Macahpaha or possibly Macahpasa.  The second individual is named Tahawarra.   I asked an Ioway who is the most fluent speaker of Chiwere I know if he recognized these names.  He could not place any Siouan meaning to their names other than paha=hill and ta=deer.  Of course these spellings may be very bad attempts to spell their names phonetically and so much of the language has been lost.   Since these two men were part of the delegation led by Amos Stoddard from Louisiana Territory to meet President Jefferson, it is possible they were actually Sac or Pawnee and not Missouris. I do not have any contacts in either of those nations that I can ask.

I've attached the images.  Are you familiar with the names belonging to any particular language group?   If they would turn out to be Missouris, it will be a major find for my project. Thanks,



Mike Dickey
Site Administrator
Arrow Rock State Historic Site
P.O. Box 1
Arrow Rock, MO 65320
Phone:  660-837-3330  Fax:  660-837-3300

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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Nov 14 04:06:18 2009
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:06:18 -0600
Subject: FW: Faculty Position in Linguistics with a specialization in
 Native American Indian linguistics, University of North Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.13.NOV.2009.220618.0600.>

From: ivy at ivydoak.com [mailto:ivy at ivydoak.com]
Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 2:25 PM
To: ssila2 at gmail.com
Subject: Faculty Position in Linguistics with a specialization in Native American Indian linguistics, University of North Texas
 
SSILA Members:

The University of North Texas has just announced an opening for a tenure
track position in Native American linguistics.  Applications will begin
being considered on November 20, 2009.  The short application period
prompted this special message.

The job ad is attached to this mail.





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From kdshea at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 08:21:50 2009
From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:21:50 -0600
Subject: Parrish Williams
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.022150.0600.>

Thank-you, all, for your kind condolences, both on the list and off.  I hope to respond to you individually. The attendance at Uncle Parrish's funeral--an all-night meeting of the NAC, followed by a traditional noon meal, giveaway, and ceremony at the cemetery--was attended by a great number of people from far and near, including NAC members from among the Comanches, Omahas, and Dine people.  I thought that both of write-ups in the paper that I saw were exceptionally good.  Thanks, Jonathan, for sending the link below.

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:08 AM
  Subject: Re: Parrish Williams


        http://www.poncacitynews.com/templates/65894112360351.bsp


         
         

        "If you love your freedom, thank a Vet."


        --- On Mon, 10/5/09, David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:


          From: David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: Parrish Williams
          To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
          Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 11:09 PM


                I am sorry to hear about the death of Parrish Williams.  I didn't know him personally, but I've heard Kathy talk about him many times.  Kathy, let me know if you need anything, and have a safe trip back to OK.

                Dave

                --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Kathleen Shea <kdshea at aol.com> wrote:


                  From: Kathleen Shea <kdshea at aol.com>
                  Subject: Re: Parrish Williams
                  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
                  Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:51 PM


                  Thank-you, Bob, for posting this on the Siouan list for me and, Jill, for your kind comments.  I don't have it in me to write much at this time, but I will try to give a fuller report to the list later.  I'll copy here what I wrote tonight to my family in California to let them know what has ocurred:

                  Parrish Williams--"Uncle" Parrish--passed away Sunday morning peacefully in his sleep surrounded by family.  He was 96.  I had just gotten to Ponca City Saturday night.  I went to a prayer meeting led by the Methodist minister at his home last night, where the funeral will be Wednesday.  There will be an all-night meeting of the Native American Church at the home Tuesday night. (Uncle Parrish was very ecumenical.)  As is traditional, the funeral takes place on the fourth day, with a feast, give-away, and a graveside ceremony.

                  His death was timely but of course still a shock.  I am saddened, will miss him, and learned a lot from him.  His family are good people and treated me very well, accepting me as one of the family.  I'm writing this from Lawrence, where I drove today to try to get my 2008 taxes in the mail, and I'll drive back down to Ponca City for the supper before the NAC meeting tomorrow.  I just wanted you to know what's happening to me and my whereabouts.  If you want to read his obituary, it should appear in tomorrow afternoon's Ponca City News at www.poncacitynews.com.  Please spread the word to others if you like, as I'm afraid of leaving someone out if I try to add more e-mail addresses.

                  Jill, I just want to add that, when I first went to Oklahoma in the summer of 1994 to start working with Uncle Parrish, he told me that it was due largely to Grandpa Truman's encouragement and good experience working with you, Lori Stanley, and Louanna Furbee that he decided to meet me and ultimately committed himself to working with me as long as I stayed with the project. He proved to be an extremely intelligent and excellent teacher. Grandpa Truman was about ten years older than Uncle Parrish and was one of his mentors.  I would say that they were both magnanimous, interested in the welfare of their people, and true citizens of the world.  Another strong mentor for Uncle Parrish was his grandpa (?) Ed Packhorse, who gave him his fireplace.  Uncle Parrish always aspired to live as long as Grandpa Ed, and he did!  (Grandpa Truman lived to be about the same age as both of them, too.)  I'm very lucky to have had Uncle Parrish as my teacher, friend, and adopted relative for as long as I have--fifteen years.

                  Kathy
                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    From: Jill Greer 
                    To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
                    Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: Parrish Williams



                    And a truly wonderful human being.  

                    I count it one of the privileges of my life to have met Parrish and been a guest in his tipi.  

                    One of our Iowa elders, Arthur Lightfoot had an adoptive relation to Parrish's late wife, so that was the context for initially meeting him.  He and Grampa Truman Dailey (Otoe-Missouria) were called upon to fly to Portland (?) to testify for Sen. Inouwe's committee on religious freedom after the Smith vs. Oregon case, and both of these elder roadman's testimonies appear in the wonderful Kifaru Production documentary Peyote Road.  He was also featured in  Alice Anderton's "Word Path" program, which was such a wonderful episode I often use it in my classes.  

                    Jill 

                    >>> "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> 10/5/2009 10:41 AM >>>
                    All,

                    Kathy Shea sends the sad news that Parrish Williams has died.  He was a fluent Ponca speaker, a tribal elder and an important figure in the Native American Church.

                    Bob
               

       
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From kdshea at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 08:30:26 2009
From: kdshea at aol.com (Kathleen Shea)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:30:26 -0600
Subject: a strange query -- off topic.
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.023026.0600.>

One of my Ponca consultants, who prefers to remain unnamed, tells me that the word for 'stick beetle' in Ponca is /ttee etta waa'bazu/ (literally, '[he] points in the direction of the buffalo').

Kathy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ThodeCharles 
  To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:32 PM
  Subject: RE: a strange query -- off topic.


  It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the bottom: tse'howainge

  C.Thode

  > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
  > From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
  > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Interesting!! As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy 
  > longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows going" 
  > (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would stick out 
  > one or another of its legs to answer us.
  > 
  > David S. Rood
  > Dept. of Linguistics
  > Univ. of Colorado
  > 295 UCB
  > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
  > USA
  > rood at colorado.edu
  > 
  &g! t; On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
  > 
  > > Nice, David!
  > >
  > > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick (insect)' on the
  > > English side. On the Osage side we have:
  > >
  > > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
  > > ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
  > > When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
  > > it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
  > > buffalo?" Then the little bug will point straight
  > > ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
  > > child gets the answer to his question.
  > >
  > > Hope this is a help to computer science.
  > >
  > > Rory
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
  > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > > 11/04/2009! 10:50 AM
  > > Please respond to
  > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > >
  > >
  > > To
  > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
  > > cc
  > >
  > > Subject
  > > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for 'walking
  > > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
  > > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo'). Apparently
  > > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the hunters
  > > which way to go. My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not handy at the
  > > moment, so someone else should verify this.
  > >
  > > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
  > >
  > > David S. Rood
  > > Dept. of Linguistics
  > > Uni! v. of Colorado
  > > 295 UCB
  > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
  > > USA
  > > rood at colorado.edu
  > >
  > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
  > >
  > >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish-speaking
  > > people in Montana. Has anyone heard anything like her beetle account
  > > from plains tribes?
  > >>
  > >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say you can
  > > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how thick the coat
  > > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
  > >>
  > >> Bob
  > >>
  > >> -----Original Message-----
  > >>
  > >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
  > >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
  > >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
  >! ; >> antennae waved. Can you shed any light on this? Have
  > >> you heard it? Did someone do this, and if so, who? And if
  > >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
  > >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
  > >>
  > >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
  > >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
  > >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
  > >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science. Bob]
  > >>
  > >> -- Sally
  > >>
  > >
  > >


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ??????????????????? ??????~ ?????? 
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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Mon Nov 23 14:52:40 2009
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:52:40 -0700
Subject: Walking sticks
In-Reply-To: <001d01ca6c17$35e491a0$4001a8c0@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <MON.23.NOV.2009.075240.0700.>

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/elytraandantenna/USInsects/
Here is a link to get a visual on your walking sticks. Which
Of the four listed are you referring to?

We were just discussing on PIStwo how Crows and a few other animals  
always point towards game. Never off topic to
understand the habits a language is used.
 From Billy's iTouch

On Nov 23, 2009, at 1:30 AM, "Kathleen Shea" <kdshea at aol.com> wrote:

> One of my Ponca consultants, who prefers to remain unnamed, tells me  
> that the word for 'stick beetle' in Ponca is /ttee etta waa'bazu/  
> (literally, '[he] points in the direction of the buffalo').
>
> Kathy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ThodeCharles
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:32 PM
> Subject: RE: a strange query -- off topic.
>
> It's also in the  Osage side page 159, left column 4th word from the  
> bottom: tse'howainge
>
> C.Thode
>
> > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:44:16 -0700
> > From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU
> > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > Subject: Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting!! As kids (in rural New York state) we used to ask daddy
> > longlegs (a particular kind of big spider) "Which way are the cows  
> going"
> > (without touching the spider, of course) and the spider would  
> stick out
> > one or another of its legs to answer us.
> >
> > David S. Rood
> > Dept. of Linguistics
> > Univ. of Colorado
> > 295 UCB
> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > USA
> > rood at colorado.edu
> >
> &g! t; On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rory M Larson wrote:
> >
> > > Nice, David!
> > >
> > > My copy is handy, and it's actually under 'walkingstick  
> (insect)' on the
> > > English side. On the Osage side we have:
> > >
> > > ttse' ho-wa-iN-ge, walking stick (bug);
> > > ttse, buffalo; ho-wa-iN-ge, where are they.
> > > When a child catches a walking stick it squeezes
> > > it between his fingers and asks, "Where are the
> > > buffalo?" Then the little bug will point straight
> > > ahead, to the right or to the left, and thus the
> > > child gets the answer to his question.
> > >
> > > Hope this is a help to computer science.
> > >
> > > Rory
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU>
> > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > > 11/04/2009! 10:50 AM
> > > Please respond to
> > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > >
> > >
> > > To
> > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> > > cc
> > >
> > > Subject
> > > Re: FW: a strange query -- off topic.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > One of my students, Chuck Thode, tells me that the word for  
> 'walking
> > > stick' in the  Osage dictionary means something like 'where did
> > > the buffalo go' (so look under the English word 'buffalo').  
> Apparently
> > > there is a description there of how the walking stick told the  
> hunters
> > > which way to go. My copy of the LaFlesche dictionary is not  
> handy at the
> > > moment, so someone else should verify this.
> > >
> > > Bob, you'll have to forward this to Sally.
> > >
> > > David S. Rood
> > > Dept. of Linguistics
> > > Uni! v. of Colorado
> > > 295 UCB
> > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> > > USA
> > > rood at colorado.edu
> > >
> > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Rankin, Robert L wrote:
> > >
> > >> I had this query from Sally Thomason, who works with Salish- 
> speaking
> > > people in Montana. Has anyone heard anything like her beetle  
> account
> > > from plains tribes?
> > >>
> > >> It sounds to me a bit like some of our local farmers who say  
> you can
> > > tell how cold it will be in the coming Winter by seeing how  
> thick the coat
> > > is on fuzzy caterpillars.
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >>
> > >> Here's a weird question: I've heard that some Plains Indians
> > >> consulted a beetle (or maybe a grasshopper) to decide which
> > >> direction to hunt in, by picking it up and seeing how the
> >! ; >> antennae waved. Can you shed any light on this? Have
> > >> you heard it? Did someone do this, and if so, who? And if
> > >> you haven't heard about it but think it could possibly be a
> > >> true account, can you suggest someone else I should ask?
> > >>
> > >> (I'm cc'ing Rich on this message because he claims,
> > >> rather improbably, that the answer would help him with
> > >> his research -- research which, as far as I know, is not
> > >> concerned with Plains Indians.) [Rich is in computer science.  
> Bob]
> > >>
> > >> -- Sally
> > >>
> > >
> > >
>
> ?????????????????????????????? ??????? 
> ????~ ????????????
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