From erschler at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 19:13:50 2010 From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:13:50 +0400 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am a Moscow typologist involved in a research on the sensitivity of the duration adverbial marking on the telicity of situation. In quite a few languages of the world, telic and atelic situations are modified with different duration adverbials. For instance, in English the difference shows in the choice of preposition: (i) atelic situation: "for-adverbial" Bill ate apples for/*in an hour. (ii) telic situation: "in-adverbial" Bill ate all apples in/*for an hour. [Sometimes it is called the Vendler or the Dowty telicity test.] Apparently, the degree to which telicity is grammaticalized varies highly across the world's languages. Not less so does vary the marking of duration adverbials. I am trying to collect a sufficiently representative sample of "in-adverbials" and "for-adverbials" marking in the world's languages. So far, I could not find any references on the telicity sensitivity of duration adverbials in Siouan or Caddoan. (Or, for that, matter, anything about the aspect in any of those languages.) I would greatly appreciate any information or reference suggestions. With best wishes, David Erschler -- Dr. David Erschler Independent University of Moscow Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 Moscow 119002 Russia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 16:56:25 2010 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:56:25 -0500 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, immediacy, continuativity, etc. As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal phrases you refer to are unmarked: Míⁿdoⁿbe-wiⁿ-égoⁿ oⁿgthíⁿi. hour-one-about we.sat "We sat for about an hour." Wáthiⁿ-athái-égoⁿ míⁿdoⁿbe ánaxti-égoⁿ ahíi-tʰe them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C "After they chased them for a good number of hours" I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erschler at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 22:14:46 2010 From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:14:46 +0400 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bryan, thanks! I am still very curious about "in"-adverbials: perhaps someone of the list subscribers has encountered them in their language(s) of expertise. With best wishes, David On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common > aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked > non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it > "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively > convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the > unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think > most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it > is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information > like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark > information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, > immediacy, continuativity, etc. > > As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal > phrases you refer to are unmarked: > Míⁿdoⁿbe-wiⁿ-égoⁿ oⁿgthíⁿi. > hour-one-about we.sat > "We sat for about an hour." > Wáthiⁿ-athái-égoⁿ míⁿdoⁿbe ánaxti-égoⁿ ahíi-tʰe > them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C > "After they chased them for a good number of hours" > > I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Dr. David Erschler Independent University of Moscow Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 Moscow 119002 Russia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Jul 12 00:26:51 2010 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:26:51 -0600 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quite a few years ago Geraldine Legendre and I published a paper in the Berkeley Linguistic Society proceedings which dealt primarily with argument marking and the active/stative verb distinction in Lakota. We had a few things to say about telicity there, but that was so long ago I don't remember the details. I'll try to remember to supply the reference and summarize the relevant points when I get to the office again in the middle of this coming week. What I recall is that we were able to force the speaker to make a distinction between "for" and "in" adverbials, but it was extremely forced -- one of them requred a 5-syllable adverb, an extremely long word for a function word in this language. Lakota matches the pattern that Bryan described pretty well, in that aspect is marked by verbal enclitics, along with several dozen other categories like evidential, speaker confidence, politeness, negation of various sorts, speech-act category, and so on. The simple verb has no marking for aspect, though of course there are semantic classes. The primary verbal inflection is neither tense nor aspect, but realis/irrealis. So-called "stative" verbs are not always stative, they simply show a relative lack of control by their argument(s). A couple of my students have been working on a correlation between inherent (semantic) aspect and the use of some of the enclitics; I'll see if they have anything ready to make public. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 12 Jul 2010, David Erschler wrote: > Bryan, thanks! > > I am still very curious about "in"-adverbials: perhaps someone of the list > subscribers has encountered them in their language(s) of expertise. > > With best wishes, > David > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > >> Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common >> aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked >> non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it >> "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively >> convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the >> unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think >> most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it >> is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information >> like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark >> information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, >> immediacy, continuativity, etc. >> >> As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal >> phrases you refer to are unmarked: >> Míⁿdoⁿbe-wiⁿ-égoⁿ oⁿgthíⁿi. >> hour-one-about we.sat >> "We sat for about an hour." >> Wáthiⁿ-athái-égoⁿ míⁿdoⁿbe ánaxti-égoⁿ ahíi-tʰe >> them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C >> "After they chased them for a good number of hours" >> >> I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> > > > > -- > Dr. David Erschler > > Independent University of Moscow > Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 > Moscow 119002 > Russia > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 17:37:42 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:37:42 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Jul 23 18:10:00 2010 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:10:00 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska Message-ID: Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttappóska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Jul 23 18:03:00 2010 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:03:00 -0500 Subject: Address Change Message-ID: Hey, gang, Can whoever is doing the bookkeeping for the List nowadays please change my email address to jtmcbri at okstate.edu from jmcbride at kawnation.com? I'm actually leaving my job at the Kaw Nation at the end of next week to begin my PhD studies this fall. Not leaving the folks or the language, though. Wíblahaⁿ, -Justin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 18:17:31 2010 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:17:31 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don't have his em-address at the moment. jgt From: Rory M Larson Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 18:20:27 2010 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:20:27 -0700 Subject: Address Change In-Reply-To: <63DF48CC70CE4599A52DE99A3F5992D9@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Congrats, Justin!  Welcome to the world of PhDdom. Dave --- On Fri, 7/23/10, Justin McBride wrote: From: Justin McBride Subject: Address Change To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, July 23, 2010, 1:03 PM  Hey, gang,   Can whoever is doing the bookkeeping for the List nowadays please change my email address to jtmcbri at okstate.edu from jmcbride at kawnation.com? I'm actually leaving my job at the Kaw Nation at the end of next week to begin my PhD studies this fall. Not leaving the folks or the language, though.   Wíblahaⁿ, -Justin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Jul 23 18:49:11 2010 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:49:11 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <6A9DDCA1EB62401495B9521AF0CE58F2@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Dorsey (slip file) translates it as 'teacher, missionary' (for both Omaha and Ponca) and gives wagoNze as a synonym (that's the word Jimm cited in IOM). Actually, even the speakers I worked with in the 1980s seemed to prefer "ttappuska tti" for 'school', not just "ttappuska", though I don't think they used it to mean 'teacher'. Catherine >>> "Justin McBride" 7/23/2010 1:10 PM >>> Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttappóska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Jul 23 18:50:01 2010 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:50:01 -0700 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It strikes me as extraordinarily peculiar that people on this list don't know Doug Parks's address: parksd at indiana.edu. Doesn't anybody belong to SSILA? Hasn't anybody been in touch with Doug on other matters? He is hardly the mysterious figure these messages imply. Wally --On Friday, July 23, 2010 1:17 PM -0500 "Jimm G. GoodTracks" wrote: > > Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) > "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). > > The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug > Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don’t have his > em-address at the moment. jgt > > > > > From: Rory M Larson > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: School: ttappuska > > Hi all, > > I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning > 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It > also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn > Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I > think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the > bracketted note: > > [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). > The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times > in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the > stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa > or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in > (h)t and (h)p.] > > This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering > if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch > with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to > comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the > meaning? > > Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? > Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 21:03:57 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:03:57 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <6A9DDCA1EB62401495B9521AF0CE58F2@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Thanks, Justin. That helps a lot! I looked up 'school' and 'teacher' in the Pawnee dictionary at the AISRI website you offered. 'Teacher' is a long thing derived from the native verb 'to teach'. 'School' has about seven different entries. Two are loanwords from English 'school'. For taapuska, the Derivation box says: "borrowing ?" So presumably it is not analyzable in Pawnee. Your information that the Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century was called ttappóska goes along with what I seem to see in Omaha and Osage, that the term originally referred to the teacher, not the school. It's interesting that it has come to be used as the verb 'teach'; I haven't seen that elsewhere. Does the word also mean 'school' in Kaw nowadays? Thanks! Rory "Justin McBride" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/23/2010 01:12 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Re: School: ttappuska Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttappóska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 21:24:18 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:24:18 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jim, We have wagoN'ze for 'teacher' in modern Omaha too, I think from the root term goN'ze, 'to teach'. I'm actually looking for a word like */ taputhka / though, maybe meaning 'teacher', 'teach' or 'school'. Since you don't mention it, would you say that there is no such word in IOM? Also, I wonder if you would know the word for a bird's crop in IOM? (That might be a little obscure!) Thanks! Rory "Jimm G. GoodTracks" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/23/2010 01:19 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Re: School: ttappuska Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don’t have his em-address at the moment. jgt From: Rory M Larson Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 22:53:02 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:53:02 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <4C499DD7.6215.008E.0@wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine wrote: > Dorsey (slip file) translates it as 'teacher, missionary' (for both > Omaha and Ponca) and gives wagoNze as a synonym (that's the word Jimm > cited in IOM). > > Actually, even the speakers I worked with in the 1980s seemed to prefer > "ttappuska tti" for 'school', not just "ttappuska", though I don't think > they used it to mean 'teacher'. Thanks, Catherine. Somehow my thesis has it down that wagoNze is Ponca and ttappuska is Omaha, both based on Reel 3, 163:6.4. Shucks! I thought I had a Ponca/Omaha vocabulary difference for you! Anyway, that helps to confirm that the original reference was to the person who taught the school, not the school itself. Your note about how 1980s elder speakers preferred "ttappuska tti" over "ttappuska" for school is news to me; our generation of speakers has always used just "ttappuska". That would seem to correlate with the trend to drop the "tti" among school children as being around the 1930s and 1940s or so. And the standardization on "wagoNze" as 'teacher' rather than "ttappuska" must have been significantly earlier, like around the turn of the century. Maybe "ttappuska" meant specifically the missionary teachers, and was dropped in favor of "wagoNze" when secular education took over? In that case, "ttappuska tti" would have meant "missionary building" as much as it meant "school". Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jul 25 22:23:40 2010 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:23:40 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska Message-ID: Hi Wally, This is off-list. Doug has only been to maybe 3 or 4 Siouan Conferences, none recently, and doesn't contribute or encourage his students to contribute, to the list. The younger Siouanists don't know about all his work with Dakotan dialectology in the 70s. Linda Cumberland is the only one of the Indiana group that is active in today's group. I wouldn't bring it up at all except that after his heart surgery Doug sort of alienated a lot of his old friends. David was the one who brought it up with me. He and Doug had been friends since Berkeley. David has managed to patch things up with Doug, but he (Doug) is still very unpopular with some others, notably John Boyle, whom he tried to prevent having access to Hidatsa records held at IU. I don't fully understand it all, but I always enjoy interacting with Doug when he turns up at LSA. I wasn't party to the discussions that led to SSILA's moving their publication from Doug's series at Nebraska to Utah, so I don't know what the reasoning behind that was. Anyway, I wish Doug and his students were more outgoing. I hope you and Marianne are healthy. I'm recovering from busting the big quadriceps tendon over my left knee -- not the way I wanted to spend my Summer, but therapy is progressing nicely and I'm back on my feet now. All the best, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Wallace Chafe Sent: Fri 7/23/2010 1:50 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: School: ttappuska It strikes me as extraordinarily peculiar that people on this list don't know Doug Parks's address: parksd at indiana.edu. Doesn't anybody belong to SSILA? Hasn't anybody been in touch with Doug on other matters? He is hardly the mysterious figure these messages imply. Wally --On Friday, July 23, 2010 1:17 PM -0500 "Jimm G. GoodTracks" wrote: > > Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) > "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). > > The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug > Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don't have his > em-address at the moment. jgt > > > > > From: Rory M Larson > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: School: ttappuska > > Hi all, > > I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning > 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It > also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn > Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I > think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the > bracketted note: > > [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). > The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times > in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the > stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa > or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in > (h)t and (h)p.] > > This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering > if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch > with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to > comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the > meaning? > > Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? > Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Rory From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jul 25 22:38:25 2010 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:38:25 -0500 Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. Message-ID: Dear all, My sincere apologies to Wally, Doug, John and everyone on the list. I thought I had substituted Wally's email address for the siouan list's, but my laptop had other ideas. It is really annoying that these lists are set up the way they are, but it was my responsibility to see that I understood the mechanics of it all. I trust the hurt feelings will be minimal. The misunderstandings among that have arisen among various Siouanists are unfortunately real, and perhaps knowing this we can address ourselves to fixing them. No one is exclusively to blame (except for me for not paying close enough attention to what I was doing). Again, very sorry. Bob From demallie at indiana.edu Thu Jul 29 21:35:04 2010 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie Jr, Raymond J.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:35:04 +0000 Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5B75@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Bob's inadvertent dissemination of a private e-mail to Wally Chafe reflects on the situation at Indiana University in two ways that require clarification, since both are misconceptions. The first is the assertion that we have discouraged our students from attending the Siouan Conferences. It is simply untrue. For a long period Linda Cumberland was the only student here whose interests led her to attend. She did so and now, as a Ph.D., Linda has become a regular attendee. Doug has not attended because of scheduling conflicts or other commitments, but he has never suggested to a graduate student here that he or she NOT attend. The second involves Hidatsa linguistic material. Following up on the Indiana University tradition of study of Hidatsa begun by Carl Voegelin and continued by his student Florence Robinett (later Voegelin), when Indrek Park was looking for a language to study for his dissertation we recommended Hidatsa. Wes Jones, who worked on Hidatsa under Doug Parks' auspices at Mary College in the 1970s, asked Doug to archive his Hidatsa files at IU, together with the materials loaned him by Flo Voegelin. Those materials are now archived at the American Indian Studies Research Institute in Bloomington. When John Boyle, who began studying Hidatsa several years ago, asked to copy the material for his own work he was invited to do so. He came to the Bloomington, where he spent three days with full 24-hour access to all the Hidatsa manuscripts at AISRI. I have no idea who started the rumor that John was denied access to these materials. John---I would appreciate it if you would send a note to the list confirming that you were offered full and unrestricted access to Wes's Hidatsa materials here. Certainly, Amy Dahlstrom is fully aware of the hospitality you were accorded and can attest to that. We will doubtless all be careful for a while to check the address to which we send our messages. Ray DeMallie American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 6:38 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. Dear all, My sincere apologies to Wally, Doug, John and everyone on the list. I thought I had substituted Wally's email address for the siouan list's, but my laptop had other ideas. It is really annoying that these lists are set up the way they are, but it was my responsibility to see that I understood the mechanics of it all. I trust the hurt feelings will be minimal. The misunderstandings among that have arisen among various Siouanists are unfortunately real, and perhaps knowing this we can address ourselves to fixing them. No one is exclusively to blame (except for me for not paying close enough attention to what I was doing). Again, very sorry. Bob From erschler at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 19:13:50 2010 From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:13:50 +0400 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am a Moscow typologist involved in a research on the sensitivity of the duration adverbial marking on the telicity of situation. In quite a few languages of the world, telic and atelic situations are modified with different duration adverbials. For instance, in English the difference shows in the choice of preposition: (i) atelic situation: "for-adverbial" Bill ate apples for/*in an hour. (ii) telic situation: "in-adverbial" Bill ate all apples in/*for an hour. [Sometimes it is called the Vendler or the Dowty telicity test.] Apparently, the degree to which telicity is grammaticalized varies highly across the world's languages. Not less so does vary the marking of duration adverbials. I am trying to collect a sufficiently representative sample of "in-adverbials" and "for-adverbials" marking in the world's languages. So far, I could not find any references on the telicity sensitivity of duration adverbials in Siouan or Caddoan. (Or, for that, matter, anything about the aspect in any of those languages.) I would greatly appreciate any information or reference suggestions. With best wishes, David Erschler -- Dr. David Erschler Independent University of Moscow Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 Moscow 119002 Russia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 16:56:25 2010 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:56:25 -0500 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, immediacy, continuativity, etc. As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal phrases you refer to are unmarked: M??do?be-wi?-?go? o?gth??i. hour-one-about we.sat "We sat for about an hour." W?thi?-ath?i-?go? m??do?be ?naxti-?go? ah?i-t?e them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C "After they chased them for a good number of hours" I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erschler at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 22:14:46 2010 From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:14:46 +0400 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bryan, thanks! I am still very curious about "in"-adverbials: perhaps someone of the list subscribers has encountered them in their language(s) of expertise. With best wishes, David On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common > aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked > non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it > "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively > convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the > unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think > most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it > is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information > like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark > information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, > immediacy, continuativity, etc. > > As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal > phrases you refer to are unmarked: > M??do?be-wi?-?go? o?gth??i. > hour-one-about we.sat > "We sat for about an hour." > W?thi?-ath?i-?go? m??do?be ?naxti-?go? ah?i-t?e > them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C > "After they chased them for a good number of hours" > > I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Dr. David Erschler Independent University of Moscow Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 Moscow 119002 Russia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Jul 12 00:26:51 2010 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:26:51 -0600 Subject: telicity marking in Siouan and Caddoan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quite a few years ago Geraldine Legendre and I published a paper in the Berkeley Linguistic Society proceedings which dealt primarily with argument marking and the active/stative verb distinction in Lakota. We had a few things to say about telicity there, but that was so long ago I don't remember the details. I'll try to remember to supply the reference and summarize the relevant points when I get to the office again in the middle of this coming week. What I recall is that we were able to force the speaker to make a distinction between "for" and "in" adverbials, but it was extremely forced -- one of them requred a 5-syllable adverb, an extremely long word for a function word in this language. Lakota matches the pattern that Bryan described pretty well, in that aspect is marked by verbal enclitics, along with several dozen other categories like evidential, speaker confidence, politeness, negation of various sorts, speech-act category, and so on. The simple verb has no marking for aspect, though of course there are semantic classes. The primary verbal inflection is neither tense nor aspect, but realis/irrealis. So-called "stative" verbs are not always stative, they simply show a relative lack of control by their argument(s). A couple of my students have been working on a correlation between inherent (semantic) aspect and the use of some of the enclitics; I'll see if they have anything ready to make public. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 12 Jul 2010, David Erschler wrote: > Bryan, thanks! > > I am still very curious about "in"-adverbials: perhaps someone of the list > subscribers has encountered them in their language(s) of expertise. > > With best wishes, > David > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > >> Speaking for Siouan in general (if I may be permitted), the most common >> aspect distinction in the family is between continuative and an unmarked >> non-continuative. I am not familiar with the reasons we call it >> "continuative" as opposed to "imperfective", but I recall being relatively >> convinced by whatever argument I heard in the past. I do know that the >> unmarked is used for statives. Other marked aspects are common, too: I think >> most Siouan languages also have some sort of iterative or habitual, and it >> is common for lexical verbs to mark aspectual and aktionsart information >> like "suddenly", "repeatedly", "abruptly". Positional verbs often mark >> information like stativity, perfect aspect, inferred or derived states, >> immediacy, continuativity, etc. >> >> As for Omaha and Ponca in particular, generally the atelic "for" temporal >> phrases you refer to are unmarked: >> M?????do???be-wi???-??go??? o???gth?????i. >> hour-one-about we.sat >> "We sat for about an hour." >> W??thi???-ath??i-??go??? m?????do???be ??naxti-??go??? ah??i-t??e >> them.have-they.go-as hour what.number.AUG-about they.arrived-C >> "After they chased them for a good number of hours" >> >> I am not familiar with any telic "in"-type temporal phrases. >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> > > > > -- > Dr. David Erschler > > Independent University of Moscow > Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11 > Moscow 119002 > Russia > From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 17:37:42 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:37:42 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Jul 23 18:10:00 2010 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:10:00 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska Message-ID: Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttapp?ska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmcbride at kawnation.com Fri Jul 23 18:03:00 2010 From: jmcbride at kawnation.com (Justin McBride) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:03:00 -0500 Subject: Address Change Message-ID: Hey, gang, Can whoever is doing the bookkeeping for the List nowadays please change my email address to jtmcbri at okstate.edu from jmcbride at kawnation.com? I'm actually leaving my job at the Kaw Nation at the end of next week to begin my PhD studies this fall. Not leaving the folks or the language, though. W?blaha?, -Justin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 18:17:31 2010 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:17:31 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don't have his em-address at the moment. jgt From: Rory M Larson Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 18:20:27 2010 From: dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:20:27 -0700 Subject: Address Change In-Reply-To: <63DF48CC70CE4599A52DE99A3F5992D9@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Congrats, Justin!? Welcome to the world of PhDdom. Dave --- On Fri, 7/23/10, Justin McBride wrote: From: Justin McBride Subject: Address Change To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, July 23, 2010, 1:03 PM ? Hey, gang, ? Can whoever is doing the bookkeeping for the List nowadays?please change my email address to jtmcbri at okstate.edu from jmcbride at kawnation.com? I'm actually leaving my job at the Kaw Nation at the end of next week to begin my PhD studies this fall. Not leaving the folks or the language, though. ? W?blaha?, -Justin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Fri Jul 23 18:49:11 2010 From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:49:11 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <6A9DDCA1EB62401495B9521AF0CE58F2@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Dorsey (slip file) translates it as 'teacher, missionary' (for both Omaha and Ponca) and gives wagoNze as a synonym (that's the word Jimm cited in IOM). Actually, even the speakers I worked with in the 1980s seemed to prefer "ttappuska tti" for 'school', not just "ttappuska", though I don't think they used it to mean 'teacher'. Catherine >>> "Justin McBride" 7/23/2010 1:10 PM >>> Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttapp?ska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory From chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu Fri Jul 23 18:50:01 2010 From: chafe at linguistics.ucsb.edu (Wallace Chafe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:50:01 -0700 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It strikes me as extraordinarily peculiar that people on this list don't know Doug Parks's address: parksd at indiana.edu. Doesn't anybody belong to SSILA? Hasn't anybody been in touch with Doug on other matters? He is hardly the mysterious figure these messages imply. Wally --On Friday, July 23, 2010 1:17 PM -0500 "Jimm G. GoodTracks" wrote: > > Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) > "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). > > The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug > Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don?t have his > em-address at the moment. jgt > > > > > From: Rory M Larson > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: School: ttappuska > > Hi all, > > I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning > 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It > also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn > Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I > think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the > bracketted note: > > [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). > The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times > in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the > stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa > or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in > (h)t and (h)p.] > > This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering > if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch > with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to > comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the > meaning? > > Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? > Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Rory From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 21:03:57 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:03:57 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <6A9DDCA1EB62401495B9521AF0CE58F2@LANGDIRECTOR> Message-ID: Thanks, Justin. That helps a lot! I looked up 'school' and 'teacher' in the Pawnee dictionary at the AISRI website you offered. 'Teacher' is a long thing derived from the native verb 'to teach'. 'School' has about seven different entries. Two are loanwords from English 'school'. For taapuska, the Derivation box says: "borrowing ?" So presumably it is not analyzable in Pawnee. Your information that the Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century was called ttapp?ska goes along with what I seem to see in Omaha and Osage, that the term originally referred to the teacher, not the school. It's interesting that it has come to be used as the verb 'teach'; I haven't seen that elsewhere. Does the word also mean 'school' in Kaw nowadays? Thanks! Rory "Justin McBride" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/23/2010 01:12 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Re: School: ttappuska Rory, It's definitely in Kaw. The Kaw Mission pastor in the 19th century, Thomas Huffaker, was called ttapp?ska by the students. Plus, Bob's 20th century consultant Maude Rowe used it to mean 'teach.' Also, I'm sure Linda knows Doug's email address just in case he's not a member of the board. But either way, I think a lot of his Pawnee dictionary data are available on the AISRI website at http://zia.aisri.indiana.edu/~dictsearch/. Just use the pull-down menu to switch between languages and dialects. I hope this helps, -Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rory M Larson To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 21:24:18 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:24:18 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jim, We have wagoN'ze for 'teacher' in modern Omaha too, I think from the root term goN'ze, 'to teach'. I'm actually looking for a word like */ taputhka / though, maybe meaning 'teacher', 'teach' or 'school'. Since you don't mention it, would you say that there is no such word in IOM? Also, I wonder if you would know the word for a bird's crop in IOM? (That might be a little obscure!) Thanks! Rory "Jimm G. GoodTracks" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 07/23/2010 01:19 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Re: School: ttappuska Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don?t have his em-address at the moment. jgt From: Rory M Larson Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: School: ttappuska Hi all, I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the bracketted note: [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in (h)t and (h)p.] This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the meaning? Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? Thanks for any advice! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jul 23 22:53:02 2010 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:53:02 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska In-Reply-To: <4C499DD7.6215.008E.0@wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine wrote: > Dorsey (slip file) translates it as 'teacher, missionary' (for both > Omaha and Ponca) and gives wagoNze as a synonym (that's the word Jimm > cited in IOM). > > Actually, even the speakers I worked with in the 1980s seemed to prefer > "ttappuska tti" for 'school', not just "ttappuska", though I don't think > they used it to mean 'teacher'. Thanks, Catherine. Somehow my thesis has it down that wagoNze is Ponca and ttappuska is Omaha, both based on Reel 3, 163:6.4. Shucks! I thought I had a Ponca/Omaha vocabulary difference for you! Anyway, that helps to confirm that the original reference was to the person who taught the school, not the school itself. Your note about how 1980s elder speakers preferred "ttappuska tti" over "ttappuska" for school is news to me; our generation of speakers has always used just "ttappuska". That would seem to correlate with the trend to drop the "tti" among school children as being around the 1930s and 1940s or so. And the standardization on "wagoNze" as 'teacher' rather than "ttappuska" must have been significantly earlier, like around the turn of the century. Maybe "ttappuska" meant specifically the missionary teachers, and was dropped in favor of "wagoNze" when secular education took over? In that case, "ttappuska tti" would have meant "missionary building" as much as it meant "school". Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jul 25 22:23:40 2010 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:23:40 -0500 Subject: School: ttappuska Message-ID: Hi Wally, This is off-list. Doug has only been to maybe 3 or 4 Siouan Conferences, none recently, and doesn't contribute or encourage his students to contribute, to the list. The younger Siouanists don't know about all his work with Dakotan dialectology in the 70s. Linda Cumberland is the only one of the Indiana group that is active in today's group. I wouldn't bring it up at all except that after his heart surgery Doug sort of alienated a lot of his old friends. David was the one who brought it up with me. He and Doug had been friends since Berkeley. David has managed to patch things up with Doug, but he (Doug) is still very unpopular with some others, notably John Boyle, whom he tried to prevent having access to Hidatsa records held at IU. I don't fully understand it all, but I always enjoy interacting with Doug when he turns up at LSA. I wasn't party to the discussions that led to SSILA's moving their publication from Doug's series at Nebraska to Utah, so I don't know what the reasoning behind that was. Anyway, I wish Doug and his students were more outgoing. I hope you and Marianne are healthy. I'm recovering from busting the big quadriceps tendon over my left knee -- not the way I wanted to spend my Summer, but therapy is progressing nicely and I'm back on my feet now. All the best, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Wallace Chafe Sent: Fri 7/23/2010 1:50 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: School: ttappuska It strikes me as extraordinarily peculiar that people on this list don't know Doug Parks's address: parksd at indiana.edu. Doesn't anybody belong to SSILA? Hasn't anybody been in touch with Doug on other matters? He is hardly the mysterious figure these messages imply. Wally --On Friday, July 23, 2010 1:17 PM -0500 "Jimm G. GoodTracks" wrote: > > Yes, it is in IOM: wo'guNdhe "where you learn s.t.; wagu'Ndhe(mi) > "teaches/ shows s.t. (fem). From: gigu'Ndhe (point; show; indicate). > > The word in Pawnee is correct, but I am unable to give an anylisis. Doug > Parks is at Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. Sorry, I don't have his > em-address at the moment. jgt > > > > > From: Rory M Larson > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:37 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: School: ttappuska > > Hi all, > > I've been looking at the Omaha term ttappuska, presently meaning > 'school', but apparently meaning 'schoolteacher' in the 19th century. It > also appears in Osage, in both the La Flesche dictionary and in Carolyn > Quintero's recent "Osage Dictionary", where it is listed as taapo'ska. I > think is nicely analyzable in Dhegiha, but Carolyn's entry has the > bracketted note: > > [Borrowed from Pawnee taapuska 'school' (Douglas Parks). > The Pawnee word may have entered Osage at different times > in different forms, with or without preaspiration of the > stops (h)t and (h)p and with a long or short vowel aa > or a; it is losing or has lost the preaspiration in > (h)t and (h)p.] > > This claims that the term is actually a loan from Pawnee. I'm wondering > if Douglas Parks is on the list, or if anyone knows how to get in touch > with him, or if anyone else on the list knows Pawnee well enough to > comment? Is the word analyzable in Pawnee, and if so, what is the > meaning? > > Also, I'd like to know how widespread the term is. Does it exist in Kaw? > Iowa-Oto? Ponka? Any other language? > > Thanks for any advice! > > Rory From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jul 25 22:38:25 2010 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:38:25 -0500 Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. Message-ID: Dear all, My sincere apologies to Wally, Doug, John and everyone on the list. I thought I had substituted Wally's email address for the siouan list's, but my laptop had other ideas. It is really annoying that these lists are set up the way they are, but it was my responsibility to see that I understood the mechanics of it all. I trust the hurt feelings will be minimal. The misunderstandings among that have arisen among various Siouanists are unfortunately real, and perhaps knowing this we can address ourselves to fixing them. No one is exclusively to blame (except for me for not paying close enough attention to what I was doing). Again, very sorry. Bob From demallie at indiana.edu Thu Jul 29 21:35:04 2010 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie Jr, Raymond J.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:35:04 +0000 Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B5F5B75@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Bob's inadvertent dissemination of a private e-mail to Wally Chafe reflects on the situation at Indiana University in two ways that require clarification, since both are misconceptions. The first is the assertion that we have discouraged our students from attending the Siouan Conferences. It is simply untrue. For a long period Linda Cumberland was the only student here whose interests led her to attend. She did so and now, as a Ph.D., Linda has become a regular attendee. Doug has not attended because of scheduling conflicts or other commitments, but he has never suggested to a graduate student here that he or she NOT attend. The second involves Hidatsa linguistic material. Following up on the Indiana University tradition of study of Hidatsa begun by Carl Voegelin and continued by his student Florence Robinett (later Voegelin), when Indrek Park was looking for a language to study for his dissertation we recommended Hidatsa. Wes Jones, who worked on Hidatsa under Doug Parks' auspices at Mary College in the 1970s, asked Doug to archive his Hidatsa files at IU, together with the materials loaned him by Flo Voegelin. Those materials are now archived at the American Indian Studies Research Institute in Bloomington. When John Boyle, who began studying Hidatsa several years ago, asked to copy the material for his own work he was invited to do so. He came to the Bloomington, where he spent three days with full 24-hour access to all the Hidatsa manuscripts at AISRI. I have no idea who started the rumor that John was denied access to these materials. John---I would appreciate it if you would send a note to the list confirming that you were offered full and unrestricted access to Wes's Hidatsa materials here. Certainly, Amy Dahlstrom is fully aware of the hospitality you were accorded and can attest to that. We will doubtless all be careful for a while to check the address to which we send our messages. Ray DeMallie American Indian Studies Research Institute Indiana University -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 6:38 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sorry. My private email went to the list. Dear all, My sincere apologies to Wally, Doug, John and everyone on the list. I thought I had substituted Wally's email address for the siouan list's, but my laptop had other ideas. It is really annoying that these lists are set up the way they are, but it was my responsibility to see that I understood the mechanics of it all. I trust the hurt feelings will be minimal. The misunderstandings among that have arisen among various Siouanists are unfortunately real, and perhaps knowing this we can address ourselves to fixing them. No one is exclusively to blame (except for me for not paying close enough attention to what I was doing). Again, very sorry. Bob