From geocultural at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  2 01:25:02 2010
From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:25:02 -0700
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47E7@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.OCT.2010.182502.0700.>

I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. My instinct is that's true but am not a linguist and am curious to learn the reasoning behind it.

I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

Robert Myers
Champaign, IL

--- On Thu, 9/30/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

> From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: Ocananhowan and Occaneechi
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 3:40 PM
> I'd have to agree.  Add to this
> the fact that many tribal names have no identifiable
> historical meaning and are "interpreted" locally by folk
> etymology.  Many of these folk interpretations even
> become "official".  These include Baxoje 'Ioway'
> (supposedly meaning an unlikely "dusty noses" or "gray
> snow", take your pick), Kansa (supposedly meaning 'south
> wind' -- not), Ponca, Biloxi, Ofo, Otoe (supposedly meaning
> 'lovers of sexual pleasure'), etc., etc.  Such
> ethnonyms are very susceptible to folk guesswork; everybody
> including linguists want names to "mean something", but many
> are lost in the mists of time.  
> 
> (Please, no responses explaining to me that such names
> REALLY DO mean what people say they mean.  I'm aware of
> all the strong beliefs in this department.)
> 
> Wish I could be more optimistic.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> on behalf of Bryan James Gordon
> Sent: Thu 9/30/2010 2:44 AM
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ocananhowan and Occaneechi
>  
> It's a stretch.
> 
> Given the word parts yu:xkan + ohon + hi wa, there would
> have to have been a
> lot of metathesis (rearranging the sounds) to get to the
> attested form
> "Ocananhowan".
> 
> My suspicions are also raised by the fact that the
> "Algonquian" form (which
> language?) starts with a similar first two syllables. That
> is a hint that,
> if they are from separate language families, one may be
> borrowed. And the
> beginning of that word does look Algonquian. But the end
> reminds me of Creek
> placenames in the Southeast, and many Creek words begin
> like these two words
> do, too.
> 
> The case for a Tutelo source would be helped if we had any
> reason to believe
> that certain Tutelo dialects would have dropped the "y" in
> "yu:xkan", or
> that certain English-speakers might have heard a Tutelo
> "yu:xkan" as "Ocan".
> 
> Just my nine cents.
> 
> - Bryan
> 
> 2010/9/30 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>
> 
> > Is the following correct information:
> >
> >  "Ocananhowan - Recorded by Smith, and later by
> Starchey. It has not been
> > decipherable in Algonquian. This is because the word
> is Siouan. Its
> > construction is derived from the Tutelo yu:xkan,
> "man," "person" + ohon,
> > "many" + hi wa, "come," "gather." Its meaning: "many
> people gather here." We
> > have seen the exact word before in Algonquian:
> Occaneechi, the place where
> > people gather." ----- "Roanoke" by Lee Miller Pg. 258
> & 259
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


      


From geocultural at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  2 01:50:19 2010
From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:50:19 -0700
Subject: MacKay's Siouan migration account from 1797
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47E7@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.OCT.2010.185019.0700.>

Thought I might share this if you haven't already seen it. This account is the earliest I've found recounting an Ohio River origin of Missouri River Siouan tribes. Written by James MacKay sometime between 1797 and 1822 but based on his 1797 trip up the Missouri River to trade with these peoples. 

"The Osage, Mahas, Poncara, Panies, & Ricara Tribes who lives on the Missouri & its Southern waters are the decendants of one nation or people who in Some Past ages lived on the River Ohio & tho time & Circumstances Separated them & brought the Language of each to differ much yet they understand each other So as to transact all business of small importance without Interpreters & they still Claim Kindred though they Sometimes Quarrel"

in: Charles E. Orser, Jr., "The Explorer as Ethnologist: James Mackay's 'Indian Tribes' Manuscript with a Test of His Comments on the Native Mortuary Customs of the Trans-Mississippi West, " Ethnohistory, Vol. 30, No. 1 (Winter, 1983): 15-33. 

An interesting twist to this story is the statement that the Pawnee and Arikara were related to the Siouans. This is similar to the general migration story below published by Rev. J. Owen Dorsey in American Naturalist, Vol. 20, No. 3 (March 1886). 

"Since 1879 the writer has gained more definite information from other Ponkas, as well as from Omahas, Osages and Kansas, and it is now given. Ages ago the ancestors of the Omahas, Ponkas, Osages, Kansas, Kwapas, Winnebagos, Pawnee Loups (Skidi) and Rees, dwelt east of the Mississippi. They were not all in one region, but they were allies, and their general course was westward. They drove other tribes before them. Five of these peoples, the Omahas, Ponkas, Osages, Kansas and Kwapas, were then together as one nation. They were called Arkansa or Alkansa by the Illinois tribes, and they dwelt near the Ohio river. At the mouth of the Ohio a separation occurred. ..."

Robert Myers
Champaign, IL


      


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Oct  3 00:48:49 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:48:49 -0500
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
Message-ID: <SAT.2.OCT.2010.194849.0500.>

> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. 

Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own, different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea", etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw, and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens" in Dorsey).  

> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like /kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").  I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was definitely some kind of association.

Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".  On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it seems to be a tributary.

For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.  

Bob


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  3 03:08:26 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:08:26 -0700
Subject: Seeking Constructive Advice On This Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.2.OCT.2010.200826.0700.>

Is this a correct attempt to translate into Tutelo-Saponi the following:
 
Healing winds I call
Upon you
>>From the center of the Earth
I call upon you
Bring on down the holy rain
And wash away all
The hurt and pain
 
 
Mamakle akita ya heni ku kiko hE
Ya -la tawiyan
Ama kyanhe ko yat -se
Ya -la heniku kiko hE tawiyan
Xa wo ha xi ya -se -i yahu a hiphe ka
Yukaweye nikas nedi
Nikas anita huk di -se
 
I used Biloxi where no word was recorded for Tutelo-Saponi. I hope this isn't totally messy. 




      
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Oct  3 12:47:42 2010
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:47:42 +0100
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47F2@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.OCT.2010.134742.0100.>

According to an article by Ives Goddard in HNAI Northeast, the Shawnee word for pecan then got borrowed into Unami as ka:se:m.  Just thought I'd add that.

Anthony

>>> "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> 03/10/2010 01:48 >>>
> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. 

Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own, different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea", etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw, and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens" in Dorsey).  

> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like /kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").  I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was definitely some kind of association.

Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".  On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it seems to be a tributary.

For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.  

Bob


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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  3 17:18:17 2010
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 10:18:17 -0700
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47F2@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.OCT.2010.101817.0700.>

Hello all...

Bob basically has the Algonquian end of this story correct. The term  
<acansa> got borrowed into Illinois early on as what appears to be a  
cover term for all the Dhegiha tribes. By the mid-19th century, kaansa  
is the Miami-Illinois term just for the Kansa tribe, and there are  
other terms for the Quapaw, Osage, etc.

And yes, Bob is right, very early on, Illinois acquired a term  
essentially meaning 'Kansa/Dhegiha nut' as their word for 'pecan'; in  
LeBoullenger's circa-1720 Illinois dictionary, this appears as  
<acansipacane>, while Pinet's Illinois dictionary from 20 years before  
gives the plural <acansepacana>. By the late 19th century, this  
variably appears in Miami and Peoria as kaansa pakaani or  
kaanseeseemini. Shawnee has similar kaa0eemi 'pecan' ('0' =  theta),  
which was later borrowed by Unami Delaware as ká·se·m (some speakers  
changed this to ká·nse·m).

And finally, the Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River is literally  
'the Kansa/Dhegiga River'; the most common variant seen is  
kaanseeseepiiwi. Shawnee also has this, as kaa0eewi0iipi.

I've assumed for a long time that what this means is that Miami- 
Illinois speakers and Shawnee speakers first encountered Dhegiha- 
speakers on the Ohio River, presumably in southern Ohio or maybe  
southern Indiana, at a time when they weren't seperated into their  
modern divisions yet, and when something sounding like /kaansa/ was  
their name for themselves. I also assume this is when the Algonquians  
first encountered pecans, or at least when they first encountered them  
in big numbers.

Dave


>> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south  
>> wind", "floats with the current," etc.
>
> Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own,  
> different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a  
> glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was  
> a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to  
> refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term  
> the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no  
> meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a  
> short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for  
> ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois  
> Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea",  
> etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have  
> been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw,  
> and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens"  
> in Dorsey).
>
>> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between  
>> Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact  
>> Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw  
>> and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an  
>> abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land,  
>> called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to  
>> grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only  
>> in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash."  
>> Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk  
>> explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm  
>> curious.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the  
> pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like / 
> kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").   
> I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will  
> enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was  
> definitely some kind of association.
>
> Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".   
> On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it  
> seems to be a tributary.
>
> For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for  
> Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.
>
> Bob
> <winmail.dat>

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From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Oct  4 22:15:57 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:15:57 -0500
Subject: Quapaw Language Question
Message-ID: <MON.4.OCT.2010.171557.0500.>

I'm afraid this doesn't ring any Quapaw bells with me.  Is it supposed to have some particular meaning?  

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Wed 9/15/2010 10:30 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
 
These words, ne de wa ha, sound like, naw daw waw hay. 


--- On Tue, 9/14/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 3:12 PM


Hey Scott,

Can you give English words that roughly rhyme with these syllables?  That way I won't have to guess at the vowel sounds.

Thanks,

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Tue 9/14/2010 1:49 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Quapaw Language Question

I was wondering if someone may know if "ne de wa ha" or "na da wa hey" has any similarity in the Quapaw language. I am uncertain if I'm spelling this correctly.




      




      


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  5 02:56:07 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:56:07 -0700
Subject: Quapaw Language Question
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47FD@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.4.OCT.2010.195607.0700.>

This was a phrase that was remembered by my Great Aunt's daughter from my Great Grandmother. Supposedly, she and her siblings spoken fluent Cherokee, however I can not seem to find any word in Cherokee that matches this phrase. I was told that there is a phrase in Tutelo-Saponi, "oka hoc ne de wa ha." I was told this phrase meant something similar to all my relatives. This phrase was remembered as part of a bedtime prayer, however my relative that remembers our Great Grandmother saying this didn't remember its meaning. Since I have been studying the Tutelo-Saponi language I can't say that I have ever come across this particular phrase. There was talk in the family that our Great Grandmother's mother was part Quapaw and Osage, therefore since I have not found this particular phrase in either Cherokee or Tutelo-Saponi I am trying to figure out what language it may have been. Some one had suggested that it may perhaps be Algonquin for enemy. I am
 guessing like the word Nottoway. I just wish someone would have bothered to tape my Great Grandmother before she passed on so that we would have a better idea of the language they were speaking.   


 
 
 
 
 
 
 

--- On Mon, 10/4/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 5:15 PM


I'm afraid this doesn't ring any Quapaw bells with me.  Is it supposed to have some particular meaning?  

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Wed 9/15/2010 10:30 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question

These words, ne de wa ha, sound like, naw daw waw hay. 


--- On Tue, 9/14/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 3:12 PM


Hey Scott,

Can you give English words that roughly rhyme with these syllables?  That way I won't have to guess at the vowel sounds.

Thanks,

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Tue 9/14/2010 1:49 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Quapaw Language Question

I was wondering if someone may know if "ne de wa ha" or "na da wa hey" has any similarity in the Quapaw language. I am uncertain if I'm spelling this correctly.




      




      




      
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From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 23 15:22:31 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 08:22:31 -0700
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.082231.0700.>


Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word, however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language. For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or Phasu-chokita. 
 
So where did they get Junktapurse from?
Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?



      
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From linguista at gmail.com  Sat Oct 23 19:56:32 2010
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:56:32 +0000
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
In-Reply-To: <225185.15359.qm@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.195632.0000.>

Actually, this one looks promising to me. The words you give, in the
opposite order, chokita-phasu, could wind up sound to a 200-year-old
English speaker like Junktapurse.

- Bryan James Gordon

2010/10/23 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

>
> Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort
> Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word,
> however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language.
> For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The
> word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have
> meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or
> Phasu-chokita.
>
> So where did they get Junktapurse from?
> Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?
>
>


-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Oct 23 21:09:45 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:09:45 -0500
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.160945.0500.>

Hi Scott,

Yup, it's Tutelo OK.  It is a variant spelling of the place name found in the Fontaine list of "Saponi" words from Ft. Christanna published by Alexander.  On his list the spelling is much clearer.  I included it in a paper on Saponi that I wrote back in the early 1980s.  Here is the section from that paper:

Hodke tok ire chunkete posse  'Is this the way to the horse head'

     a.   ROAD  /hXtk(o)/
          Cognates: Tutelo         hetkoq       'road  (Dorsey, Hewitt)
                    Biloxi         netkohi      'path, road, street'
                                   nutkuhi                "
                                   natkohi                "
                    Ofo            nakhohi      'trail, road'

'Road'
 is cognate with the rest of Ohio Valley Siouan, as you can see.
Tok is 'which, that'
ire is 'you go'.  Re is 'go'.
And chunkete posse is your "Junktapurse" meaning 'horse head'.  No doubt about it.

Your discovery of the source of the place name (as the name of the town at the fort) answers one of my old questions.  I always wondered what "horse head" referred to.  I speculated that it was a tavern because it sounds like the name of a beer joint.  That would fit with the fact that a lot of the items on this colonial word list constitute a seduction dialog for soldiers to use with Indian women.  Vive l'amour.

Bob
---------------------------------
> Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word, however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language. For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or Phasu-chokita. 
 
> So where did they get Junktapurse from?
Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Oct 27 16:21:46 2010
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:21:46 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.112146.0500.>

Aloha all,

Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, 
I thought you all might find this of interest.


The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting 
translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of 
moccasins/shoes.

I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Mark


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology
and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368

http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
http://omahaponca.unl.edu
Phone 402-472-3455
FAX: 402-472-9642
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From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Wed Oct 27 17:02:46 2010
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:02:46 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <OF05DF8DCD.B20B347F-ON862577C9.005993D7-862577C9.0059FA3A@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.120246.0500.>

OK, here's my best shot.  
 
It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone semi-literate.
 
It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly -- a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing systems.  
 
In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the shoes??  
 
Here's a transliteration:  
First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
 
I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno" means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae".  
 
Catherine
 
>>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
Aloha all, 

Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, I thought you all might find this of interest. 


The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes. 

I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration. 

Any suggestions are welcome. 

Thanks 

Mark 


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology
and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368

http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ( http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/ )
http://omahaponca.unl.edu ( http://omahaponca.unl.edu/ )
Phone 402-472-3455
FAX: 402-472-9642
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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Wed Oct 27 17:19:06 2010
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:19:06 -0600
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <4CC814E5.6215.008E.1@wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.111906.0600.>

I forwarded this to my group of 735 people.
A good number of them are eastern European, so 
we will have an answer very quickly.
I know they will want to see an image of the
mocs. Seeing the image will also answer what group or area
quiet quickly. We deals with thousands of pairs every year.


Billy Maxwell
VISIT mcppp.org
bmaxwell at mt.net
187 Woodland Est. Road
Great Falls, MT 59404

On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote:

> OK, here's my best shot. 
>  
> It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone semi-literate.
>  
> It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly -- a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing systems. 
>  
> In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the shoes?? 
>  
> Here's a transliteration: 
> First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
> Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
> And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
>  
> I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno" means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae". 
>  
> Catherine
>  
> >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
> Aloha all, 
> 
> Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, I thought you all might find this of interest. 
> 
> 
> The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes. 
> 
> I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration. 
> 
> Any suggestions are welcome. 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 
> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
> University of Nebraska
> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
> 
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edu
> Phone 402-472-3455
> FAX: 402-472-9642

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From erschler at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 17:18:41 2010
From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:18:41 +0400
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <4CC814E5.6215.008E.1@wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.211841.0400.>

It's a pity that no photograph of the actual tag is attached, some
characters could have get garbled in copying. (Or what is on the second page
of the file is indeed a photocopy? I haven't understood that.)

It doesn't look neither like Russian nor like Ukrainian to me (I'm a native
speaker of Russian.) "edno sjirze" could perhaps be едно свирче  "jedno
svirche", the Macedonian for "one whistle".

David

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Catherine Rudin <CaRudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

>  OK, here's my best shot.
>
> It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone
> semi-literate.
>
> It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly --
> a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one
> "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance
> from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is
> Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not
> terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably
> with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've
> done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing
> systems.
>
> In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the
> shoes??
>
> Here's a transliteration:
> First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
> Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
> And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
>
> I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva
> Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though
> Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno"
> means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae".
>
> Catherine
>
> >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu>
> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
>
> Aloha all,
>
> Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages,
> I thought you all might find this of interest.
>
>
> The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting
> translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes.
>
> I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration.
>
> Any suggestions are welcome.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
>
>
> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
> University of Nebraska
> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
>
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edu
> Phone 402-472-3455
> FAX: 402-472-9642
>



-- 
Dr. David Erschler

Independent University of Moscow
Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11
Moscow 119002
Russia
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Oct 27 17:45:59 2010
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:45:59 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikd4Vhc7tCpxnBjwFc2nxqMxTb4x40WXKLd3WHq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.124559.0500.>

Aloha All,

Thanks Catherine, Billy, and David for the quick responses.

I, too, would like to see the actual shoes in question.

I called the person and he will take some digital images that can be sent 
along.

My department secretary who forwarded me the inquiry is amazed at the 
responses.

I will look forward to others weighing in on it.

Thanks heaps!

Mark


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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Thu Oct 28 04:17:05 2010
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:17:05 -0600
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <OF8727F1EE.28F80C6F-ON862577C9.005FB2A3-862577C9.0061AEF0@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.221705.0600.>

 Re: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Moc. Translation [1 Attachment]

Billy,
These are nothing else but two women's names and surnames written in capital letters in  cyrilic alphabet: OA(?) Evaronia Uvunova and SA(?) Georgiva Vasilieva. It looks like some letters are messed up or maybe at that time this was the way to write, i do not know. First of the smaller words above lower surname mean "one"; do not know of meaning of second word.
 As it was suggested in attached letter, this can be Russian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian or any of eastern languages, where cyrilic alphabet is or was in use.

I don't know how this info could help, but hope it does.

Regards
Mariusz

Billy Maxwell
VISIT mcppp.org
bmaxwell at mt.net
187 Woodland Est. Road
Great Falls, MT 59404





On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote:

> Aloha All, 
> 
> Thanks Catherine, Billy, and David for the quick responses. 
> 
> I, too, would like to see the actual shoes in question. 
> 
> I called the person and he will take some digital images that can be sent along. 
> 
> My department secretary who forwarded me the inquiry is amazed at the responses. 
> 
> I will look forward to others weighing in on it. 
> 
> Thanks heaps! 
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 

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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Oct 31 17:24:36 2010
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:24:36 +0000
Subject: translation request
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.172436.0000.>

The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread Orthdox women's name.

Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?

Best

A


The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'

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From carudin1 at wsc.edu  Sun Oct 31 17:35:20 2010
From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:35:20 -0500
Subject: translation request
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.123520.0500.>

I think the letter I wrote as z is actually a cyrillic "ch" -- sjirche.  Someone suggested it might be "svirche", but aside from having no reason to think whistles are involved, the second letter is pretty clearly a soft sign, not a cyrillic "v".  Who knows.

Anyhow, it's two names, and I doubt we'll get much beyond that...

>>> "Anthony Grant"  10/31/10 12:29 PM >>>
The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread Orthdox women's name.

Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?

Best

A


The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'

-----------------------------------------------------
This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence.

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From erschler at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 17:40:19 2010
From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:40:19 +0300
Subject: translation request
In-Reply-To: <4CCD62920200008E00024343@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.204019.0300.>

The second letter could also be the jat' (Ѣ).

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

> I think the letter I wrote as z is actually a cyrillic "ch" -- sjirche.
> Someone suggested it might be "svirche", but aside from having no reason to
> think whistles are involved, the second letter is pretty clearly a soft
> sign, not a cyrillic "v".  Who knows.
>
> Anyhow, it's two names, and I doubt we'll get much beyond that...
>
> >>> "Anthony Grant" <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> 10/31/10 12:29 PM >>>
>
> The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread
> Orthdox women's name.
>
> Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is
> serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?
>
> Best
>
> A
>
>
> The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views
> or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University
> may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the
> purposes of security and business communications during staff absence.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>



-- 
Dr. David Erschler

Independent University of Moscow
Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11
Moscow 119002
Russia
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From geocultural at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  2 01:25:02 2010
From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:25:02 -0700
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47E7@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.OCT.2010.182502.0700.>

I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. My instinct is that's true but am not a linguist and am curious to learn the reasoning behind it.

I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

Robert Myers
Champaign, IL

--- On Thu, 9/30/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

> From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: Ocananhowan and Occaneechi
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 3:40 PM
> I'd have to agree.? Add to this
> the fact that many tribal names have no identifiable
> historical meaning and are "interpreted" locally by folk
> etymology.? Many of these folk interpretations even
> become "official".? These include Baxoje 'Ioway'
> (supposedly meaning an unlikely "dusty noses" or "gray
> snow", take your pick), Kansa (supposedly meaning 'south
> wind' -- not), Ponca, Biloxi, Ofo, Otoe (supposedly meaning
> 'lovers of sexual pleasure'), etc., etc.? Such
> ethnonyms are very susceptible to folk guesswork; everybody
> including linguists want names to "mean something", but many
> are lost in the mists of time.? 
> 
> (Please, no responses explaining to me that such names
> REALLY DO mean what people say they mean.? I'm aware of
> all the strong beliefs in this department.)
> 
> Wish I could be more optimistic.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> on behalf of Bryan James Gordon
> Sent: Thu 9/30/2010 2:44 AM
> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ocananhowan and Occaneechi
>  
> It's a stretch.
> 
> Given the word parts yu:xkan + ohon + hi wa, there would
> have to have been a
> lot of metathesis (rearranging the sounds) to get to the
> attested form
> "Ocananhowan".
> 
> My suspicions are also raised by the fact that the
> "Algonquian" form (which
> language?) starts with a similar first two syllables. That
> is a hint that,
> if they are from separate language families, one may be
> borrowed. And the
> beginning of that word does look Algonquian. But the end
> reminds me of Creek
> placenames in the Southeast, and many Creek words begin
> like these two words
> do, too.
> 
> The case for a Tutelo source would be helped if we had any
> reason to believe
> that certain Tutelo dialects would have dropped the "y" in
> "yu:xkan", or
> that certain English-speakers might have heard a Tutelo
> "yu:xkan" as "Ocan".
> 
> Just my nine cents.
> 
> - Bryan
> 
> 2010/9/30 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>
> 
> > Is the following correct information:
> >
> >? "Ocananhowan - Recorded by Smith, and later by
> Starchey. It has not been
> > decipherable in Algonquian. This is because the word
> is Siouan. Its
> > construction is derived from the Tutelo yu:xkan,
> "man," "person" + ohon,
> > "many" + hi wa, "come," "gather." Its meaning: "many
> people gather here." We
> > have seen the exact word before in Algonquian:
> Occaneechi, the place where
> > people gather." ----- "Roanoke" by Lee Miller Pg. 258
> & 259
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


      


From geocultural at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  2 01:50:19 2010
From: geocultural at yahoo.com (Robert Myers)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:50:19 -0700
Subject: MacKay's Siouan migration account from 1797
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47E7@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.OCT.2010.185019.0700.>

Thought I might share this if you haven't already seen it. This account is the earliest I've found recounting an Ohio River origin of Missouri River Siouan tribes. Written by James MacKay sometime between 1797 and 1822 but based on his 1797 trip up the Missouri River to trade with these peoples. 

"The Osage, Mahas, Poncara, Panies, & Ricara Tribes who lives on the Missouri & its Southern waters are the decendants of one nation or people who in Some Past ages lived on the River Ohio & tho time & Circumstances Separated them & brought the Language of each to differ much yet they understand each other So as to transact all business of small importance without Interpreters & they still Claim Kindred though they Sometimes Quarrel"

in: Charles E. Orser, Jr., "The Explorer as Ethnologist: James Mackay's 'Indian Tribes' Manuscript with a Test of His Comments on the Native Mortuary Customs of the Trans-Mississippi West, " Ethnohistory, Vol. 30, No. 1 (Winter, 1983): 15-33. 

An interesting twist to this story is the statement that the Pawnee and Arikara were related to the Siouans. This is similar to the general migration story below published by Rev. J. Owen Dorsey in American Naturalist, Vol. 20, No. 3 (March 1886). 

"Since 1879 the writer has gained more definite information from other Ponkas, as well as from Omahas, Osages and Kansas, and it is now given. Ages ago the ancestors of the Omahas, Ponkas, Osages, Kansas, Kwapas, Winnebagos, Pawnee Loups (Skidi) and Rees, dwelt east of the Mississippi. They were not all in one region, but they were allies, and their general course was westward. They drove other tribes before them. Five of these peoples, the Omahas, Ponkas, Osages, Kansas and Kwapas, were then together as one nation. They were called Arkansa or Alkansa by the Illinois tribes, and they dwelt near the Ohio river. At the mouth of the Ohio a separation occurred. ..."

Robert Myers
Champaign, IL


      


From rankin at ku.edu  Sun Oct  3 00:48:49 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:48:49 -0500
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
Message-ID: <SAT.2.OCT.2010.194849.0500.>

> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. 

Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own, different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea", etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw, and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens" in Dorsey).  

> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like /kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").  I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was definitely some kind of association.

Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".  On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it seems to be a tributary.

For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.  

Bob


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  3 03:08:26 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:08:26 -0700
Subject: Seeking Constructive Advice On This Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.2.OCT.2010.200826.0700.>

Is this a correct attempt to translate into Tutelo-Saponi the following:
?
Healing winds I call
Upon you
>>From the center of the Earth
I call upon you
Bring on down the holy rain
And wash away all
The hurt and pain
?
?
Mamakle akita ya heni ku kiko hE
Ya -la tawiyan
Ama kyanhe ko yat -se
Ya -la heniku kiko hE tawiyan
Xa wo ha xi ya -se -i yahu a hiphe ka
Yukaweye nikas nedi
Nikas anita huk di -se
?
I used Biloxi where no word was recorded for Tutelo-Saponi. I hope this isn't totally messy. 




      
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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Oct  3 12:47:42 2010
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:47:42 +0100
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47F2@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.OCT.2010.134742.0100.>

According to an article by Ives Goddard in HNAI Northeast, the Shawnee word for pecan then got borrowed into Unami as ka:se:m.  Just thought I'd add that.

Anthony

>>> "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu> 03/10/2010 01:48 >>>
> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south wind", "floats with the current," etc. 

Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own, different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea", etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw, and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens" in Dorsey).  

> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land, called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash." Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm curious.

I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like /kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").  I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was definitely some kind of association.

Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".  On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it seems to be a tributary.

For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.  

Bob


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From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  3 17:18:17 2010
From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 10:18:17 -0700
Subject: Kansa, pecan, Arkansas
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47F2@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.OCT.2010.101817.0700.>

Hello all...

Bob basically has the Algonquian end of this story correct. The term  
<acansa> got borrowed into Illinois early on as what appears to be a  
cover term for all the Dhegiha tribes. By the mid-19th century, kaansa  
is the Miami-Illinois term just for the Kansa tribe, and there are  
other terms for the Quapaw, Osage, etc.

And yes, Bob is right, very early on, Illinois acquired a term  
essentially meaning 'Kansa/Dhegiha nut' as their word for 'pecan'; in  
LeBoullenger's circa-1720 Illinois dictionary, this appears as  
<acansipacane>, while Pinet's Illinois dictionary from 20 years before  
gives the plural <acansepacana>. By the late 19th century, this  
variably appears in Miami and Peoria as kaansa pakaani or  
kaanseeseemini. Shawnee has similar kaa0eemi 'pecan' ('0' =  theta),  
which was later borrowed by Unami Delaware as k??se?m (some speakers  
changed this to k??nse?m).

And finally, the Miami-Illinois name for the Ohio River is literally  
'the Kansa/Dhegiga River'; the most common variant seen is  
kaanseeseepiiwi. Shawnee also has this, as kaa0eewi0iipi.

I've assumed for a long time that what this means is that Miami- 
Illinois speakers and Shawnee speakers first encountered Dhegiha- 
speakers on the Ohio River, presumably in southern Ohio or maybe  
southern Indiana, at a time when they weren't seperated into their  
modern divisions yet, and when something sounding like /kaansa/ was  
their name for themselves. I also assume this is when the Algonquians  
first encountered pecans, or at least when they first encountered them  
in big numbers.

Dave


>> I'd like to know how it's known that Kansa does not mean "south  
>> wind", "floats with the current," etc.
>
> Because Kansa and all the other Dhegiha languages have their own,  
> different, term for 'south wind'.  It is /ak?a/, where ? is a  
> glottal stop and ak?a is accented on the first syllable.  Kansa was  
> a term used by the Algonquian-speaking tribes of the Ohio Valley to  
> refer to all the Dhegiha-speaking tribes.  It is probably the term  
> the Dhegiha speakers used to refer to themselves, but it has no  
> meaning other than that.  Algonquian speakers prefixed it with a  
> short /o-/ prefix, one that is often used in Algonquian for  
> ethnonyms (Odawa, Ojibwe, etc.).  This short o- evolved in Illinois  
> Algonquian into /a-/, giving rise to names like "Akansa", "Akansea",  
> etc. found throughout early accounts.  Originally it seems to have  
> been used to refer to all Dhegiha speakers, not just the Quapaw,  
> and, of course, most of the Dhegiha tribes have a Kansa clan ("gens"  
> in Dorsey).
>
>> I'm also interested in knowing more about any connection between  
>> Arkansas and pecan in Miami/Illinois. Bourgmont, in his "Exact  
>> Description of Louisiana" (circa 1725), after mentioning the Quapaw  
>> and ascending the Mississippi River, says, "There is also an  
>> abundance of nuts, extending over more than 200 leagues of land,  
>> called by the Indians Akansapaccana, from which they make oil to  
>> grease their hair and their firearms. But these nuts are found only  
>> in certain regions. There are a great many of them on the Wabash."  
>> Could early references to the Arkansas on the Ohio River be a folk  
>> explanation arising from the Miami/Illinois word for pecan? I'm  
>> curious.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that these Algonquian speakers called the  
> pecan "the Kansa nut".  I believe Shawnee has a term like / 
> kaathemini/ (where /th/ is like the the first sound in "thick").   
> I'm not sure about the term /pakkana/, but maybe Dave Costa will  
> enlighten us.  Kaathemini is "Kansa nut" however, so there was  
> definitely some kind of association.
>
> Early maps of the Ohio Valley also show a "River of the Akansea".   
> On some maps it seems to be the name for the Ohio but on others it  
> seems to be a tributary.
>
> For what it's worth, the names Omaha and Okaxpa (the latter for  
> Quapaw) do seem to mean upstream and downstream respectively.
>
> Bob
> <winmail.dat>

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From rankin at ku.edu  Mon Oct  4 22:15:57 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:15:57 -0500
Subject: Quapaw Language Question
Message-ID: <MON.4.OCT.2010.171557.0500.>

I'm afraid this doesn't ring any Quapaw bells with me.  Is it supposed to have some particular meaning?  

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Wed 9/15/2010 10:30 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
 
These words, ne de wa ha, sound like, naw daw waw hay.?


--- On Tue, 9/14/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 3:12 PM


Hey Scott,

Can you give English words that roughly rhyme with these syllables?? That way I won't have to guess at the vowel sounds.

Thanks,

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Tue 9/14/2010 1:49 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Quapaw Language Question

I was wondering if someone may know if "ne de wa ha" or "na da wa hey" has any similarity in the Quapaw language. I am uncertain if I'm spelling this correctly.




? ? ? 




      


From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  5 02:56:07 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:56:07 -0700
Subject: Quapaw Language Question
In-Reply-To: <94AEF443BC155B408F63B70FAD80787B015F47FD@MAILBOX-31.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.4.OCT.2010.195607.0700.>

This was a phrase that was remembered by my Great Aunt's daughter from my Great Grandmother. Supposedly, she and her siblings spoken fluent Cherokee, however I can not seem to find any word in Cherokee that matches this phrase. I was told that there is a phrase in Tutelo-Saponi, "oka hoc ne de wa ha." I was told this phrase meant something similar to all my relatives. This phrase was remembered as part of a bedtime prayer, however my relative that remembers our Great Grandmother saying this?didn't remember its meaning. Since I have been studying the Tutelo-Saponi language I can't say that I have ever come across this particular phrase. There was talk in the family that our?Great Grandmother's mother was part Quapaw and Osage, therefore since I have not?found this particular phrase in either Cherokee or?Tutelo-Saponi I am trying to figure out what language it may have been. Some one had suggested that it may perhaps be Algonquin for enemy. I am
 guessing like the word Nottoway. I just wish someone would have bothered to tape my Great Grandmother before she passed on so that we would have a better idea of the language they were speaking. ??


?
?
?
?
?
?
?

--- On Mon, 10/4/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 5:15 PM


I'm afraid this doesn't ring any Quapaw bells with me.? Is it supposed to have some particular meaning?? 

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Wed 9/15/2010 10:30 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question

These words, ne de wa ha, sound like, naw daw waw hay.?


--- On Tue, 9/14/10, Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:


From: Rankin, Robert L <rankin at ku.edu>
Subject: RE: Quapaw Language Question
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 3:12 PM


Hey Scott,

Can you give English words that roughly rhyme with these syllables?? That way I won't have to guess at the vowel sounds.

Thanks,

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Scott Collins
Sent: Tue 9/14/2010 1:49 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Quapaw Language Question

I was wondering if someone may know if "ne de wa ha" or "na da wa hey" has any similarity in the Quapaw language. I am uncertain if I'm spelling this correctly.




? ? ? 




? ? ? 




      
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From saponi360 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 23 15:22:31 2010
From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 08:22:31 -0700
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.082231.0700.>


Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word, however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language. For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or Phasu-chokita. 
?
So where did they get Junktapurse from?
Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?



      
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From linguista at gmail.com  Sat Oct 23 19:56:32 2010
From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:56:32 +0000
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
In-Reply-To: <225185.15359.qm@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.195632.0000.>

Actually, this one looks promising to me. The words you give, in the
opposite order, chokita-phasu, could wind up sound to a 200-year-old
English speaker like Junktapurse.

- Bryan James Gordon

2010/10/23 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

>
> Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort
> Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word,
> however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language.
> For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The
> word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have
> meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or
> Phasu-chokita.
>
> So where did they get Junktapurse from?
> Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?
>
>


-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From rankin at ku.edu  Sat Oct 23 21:09:45 2010
From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:09:45 -0500
Subject: Is the name Junktapurse actually Siouan?
Message-ID: <SAT.23.OCT.2010.160945.0500.>

Hi Scott,

Yup, it's Tutelo OK.  It is a variant spelling of the place name found in the Fontaine list of "Saponi" words from Ft. Christanna published by Alexander.  On his list the spelling is much clearer.  I included it in a paper on Saponi that I wrote back in the early 1980s.  Here is the section from that paper:

Hodke tok ire chunkete posse  'Is this the way to the horse head'

     a.   ROAD  /hXtk(o)/
          Cognates: Tutelo         hetkoq       'road  (Dorsey, Hewitt)
                    Biloxi         netkohi      'path, road, street'
                                   nutkuhi                "
                                   natkohi                "
                    Ofo            nakhohi      'trail, road'

'Road'
 is cognate with the rest of Ohio Valley Siouan, as you can see.
Tok is 'which, that'
ire is 'you go'.  Re is 'go'.
And chunkete posse is your "Junktapurse" meaning 'horse head'.  No doubt about it.

Your discovery of the source of the place name (as the name of the town at the fort) answers one of my old questions.  I always wondered what "horse head" referred to.  I speculated that it was a tavern because it sounds like the name of a beer joint.  That would fit with the fact that a lot of the items on this colonial word list constitute a seduction dialog for soldiers to use with Indian women.  Vive l'amour.

Bob
---------------------------------
> Junktapurse, this is the name that has been given to the town that Fort Christanna was built. I began wondering about the origin of the word, however as it does not fit the known words of the Tutelo-Saponi language. For instance the word horse, chokita, comes from the word dog, choki. The word for head is pha or phasu. Therfore in order for Junktapurse to have meant horsehead the name would have to have been Pha-chokita or Phasu-chokita. 
?
> So where did they get Junktapurse from?
Is this word yet again an Algonquin word?


From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Oct 27 16:21:46 2010
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:21:46 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.112146.0500.>

Aloha all,

Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, 
I thought you all might find this of interest.


The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting 
translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of 
moccasins/shoes.

I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Mark


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology
and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368

http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
http://omahaponca.unl.edu
Phone 402-472-3455
FAX: 402-472-9642
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From CaRudin1 at wsc.edu  Wed Oct 27 17:02:46 2010
From: CaRudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:02:46 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <OF05DF8DCD.B20B347F-ON862577C9.005993D7-862577C9.0059FA3A@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.120246.0500.>

OK, here's my best shot.  
 
It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone semi-literate.
 
It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly -- a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing systems.  
 
In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the shoes??  
 
Here's a transliteration:  
First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
 
I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno" means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae".  
 
Catherine
 
>>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
Aloha all, 

Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, I thought you all might find this of interest. 


The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes. 

I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration. 

Any suggestions are welcome. 

Thanks 

Mark 


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology
and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368

http://omahalanguage.unl.edu ( http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/ )
http://omahaponca.unl.edu ( http://omahaponca.unl.edu/ )
Phone 402-472-3455
FAX: 402-472-9642
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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Wed Oct 27 17:19:06 2010
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:19:06 -0600
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <4CC814E5.6215.008E.1@wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.111906.0600.>

I forwarded this to my group of 735 people.
A good number of them are eastern European, so 
we will have an answer very quickly.
I know they will want to see an image of the
mocs. Seeing the image will also answer what group or area
quiet quickly. We deals with thousands of pairs every year.


Billy Maxwell
VISIT mcppp.org
bmaxwell at mt.net
187 Woodland Est. Road
Great Falls, MT 59404

On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote:

> OK, here's my best shot. 
>  
> It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone semi-literate.
>  
> It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly -- a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing systems. 
>  
> In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the shoes?? 
>  
> Here's a transliteration: 
> First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
> Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
> And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
>  
> I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno" means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae". 
>  
> Catherine
>  
> >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
> Aloha all, 
> 
> Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages, I thought you all might find this of interest. 
> 
> 
> The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes. 
> 
> I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration. 
> 
> Any suggestions are welcome. 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 
> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
> University of Nebraska
> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
> 
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edu
> Phone 402-472-3455
> FAX: 402-472-9642

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From erschler at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 17:18:41 2010
From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:18:41 +0400
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <4CC814E5.6215.008E.1@wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.211841.0400.>

It's a pity that no photograph of the actual tag is attached, some
characters could have get garbled in copying. (Or what is on the second page
of the file is indeed a photocopy? I haven't understood that.)

It doesn't look neither like Russian nor like Ukrainian to me (I'm a native
speaker of Russian.) "edno sjirze" could perhaps be ???? ??????  "jedno
svirche", the Macedonian for "one whistle".

David

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Catherine Rudin <CaRudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

>  OK, here's my best shot.
>
> It's not Bulgarian, or at least if it is it's written by someone
> semi-literate.
>
> It IS, however, a Slavic language, written in Cyrillic alphabet (mostly --
> a couple of Roman letters mixed in, specifically one "R", one "S", and one
> "i", so definitely eastern Europe/Russian empire.  Are the shoes by chance
> from Alaska??  The Ukrainian version of cyrillic uses an "i".  Maybe this is
> Ukrainian. Or Russian, written by someone who was bilingual, not
> terrifically literate and tended to use some Roman letters interchangeably
> with cyrillic; I know Turks who do this when writing in Bulgarian and I've
> done it myself in English when going back and forth between writing
> systems.
>
> In any case, it appears to be two names.  Perhaps the owners of the
> shoes??
>
> Here's a transliteration:
> First line:  OA Evaoriia Uvunova
> Second line:  SA Georgiva Vasileva
> And the smaller words not in all caps:  edno sjirze sae (or fae???)
>
> I don't know what "OA" and "SA" are.  "Evaoriia Uvunova" and "Georgiva
> Vasilieva" look like women's names:  feminine patronymic + last name (though
> Evaoriia is a weird enough name that I wonder if it was mis-copied).  "edno"
> means "one" or "a", but I don't recognize "sjirze sae".
>
> Catherine
>
> >>> Mark J Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu>
> 10/27/2010 11:21 AM >>>
>
> Aloha all,
>
> Knowing that many of the List folkshave expertise in non-Siouan languages,
> I thought you all might find this of interest.
>
>
> The Department of Anthropology received the attached letter requesting
> translation assistance on a paper tag attached to a pair of moccasins/shoes.
>
> I am attaching a pdf of the letter for your consideration.
>
> Any suggestions are welcome.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark
>
>
> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Anthropology
> and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
> University of Nebraska
> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368
>
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edu
> Phone 402-472-3455
> FAX: 402-472-9642
>



-- 
Dr. David Erschler

Independent University of Moscow
Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11
Moscow 119002
Russia
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu  Wed Oct 27 17:45:59 2010
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:45:59 -0500
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikd4Vhc7tCpxnBjwFc2nxqMxTb4x40WXKLd3WHq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.124559.0500.>

Aloha All,

Thanks Catherine, Billy, and David for the quick responses.

I, too, would like to see the actual shoes in question.

I called the person and he will take some digital images that can be sent 
along.

My department secretary who forwarded me the inquiry is amazed at the 
responses.

I will look forward to others weighing in on it.

Thanks heaps!

Mark


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From bmaxwell at mt.net  Thu Oct 28 04:17:05 2010
From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:17:05 -0600
Subject: non-siouan inquiry
In-Reply-To: <OF8727F1EE.28F80C6F-ON862577C9.005FB2A3-862577C9.0061AEF0@unl.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.27.OCT.2010.221705.0600.>

 Re: [PlainsIndianSeminartwo] Moc. Translation [1 Attachment]

Billy,
These are nothing else but two women's names and surnames written in capital letters in  cyrilic alphabet: OA(?) Evaronia Uvunova and SA(?) Georgiva Vasilieva. It looks like some letters are messed up or maybe at that time this was the way to write, i do not know. First of the smaller words above lower surname mean "one"; do not know of meaning of second word.
 As it was suggested in attached letter, this can be Russian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian or any of eastern languages, where cyrilic alphabet is or was in use.

I don't know how this info could help, but hope it does.

Regards
Mariusz

Billy Maxwell
VISIT mcppp.org
bmaxwell at mt.net
187 Woodland Est. Road
Great Falls, MT 59404





On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote:

> Aloha All, 
> 
> Thanks Catherine, Billy, and David for the quick responses. 
> 
> I, too, would like to see the actual shoes in question. 
> 
> I called the person and he will take some digital images that can be sent along. 
> 
> My department secretary who forwarded me the inquiry is amazed at the responses. 
> 
> I will look forward to others weighing in on it. 
> 
> Thanks heaps! 
> 
> Mark 
> 
> 

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From Granta at edgehill.ac.uk  Sun Oct 31 17:24:36 2010
From: Granta at edgehill.ac.uk (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:24:36 +0000
Subject: translation request
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.172436.0000.>

The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread Orthdox women's name.

Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?

Best

A


The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'

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From carudin1 at wsc.edu  Sun Oct 31 17:35:20 2010
From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:35:20 -0500
Subject: translation request
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.123520.0500.>

I think the letter I wrote as z is actually a cyrillic "ch" -- sjirche.  Someone suggested it might be "svirche", but aside from having no reason to think whistles are involved, the second letter is pretty clearly a soft sign, not a cyrillic "v".  Who knows.

Anyhow, it's two names, and I doubt we'll get much beyond that...

>>> "Anthony Grant"  10/31/10 12:29 PM >>>
The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread Orthdox women's name.

Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?

Best

A


The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'

-----------------------------------------------------
This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies.  Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence.

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From erschler at gmail.com  Sun Oct 31 17:40:19 2010
From: erschler at gmail.com (David Erschler)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:40:19 +0300
Subject: translation request
In-Reply-To: <4CCD62920200008E00024343@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.2010.204019.0300.>

The second letter could also be the jat' (?).

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

> I think the letter I wrote as z is actually a cyrillic "ch" -- sjirche.
> Someone suggested it might be "svirche", but aside from having no reason to
> think whistles are involved, the second letter is pretty clearly a soft
> sign, not a cyrillic "v".  Who knows.
>
> Anyhow, it's two names, and I doubt we'll get much beyond that...
>
> >>> "Anthony Grant" <Granta at edgehill.ac.uk> 10/31/10 12:29 PM >>>
>
> The first name appears to be a form or spelling of Evdokiya, a widespread
> Orthdox women's name.
>
> Could the sjirze be some form of the Slavic root for 'heart' which is
> serdce in Russian and srce in Serbian?
>
> Best
>
> A
>
>
> The Sunday Times '75 Best Places To Work in The Public Sector 2010'
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views
> or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University
> may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the
> purposes of security and business communications during staff absence.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>



-- 
Dr. David Erschler

Independent University of Moscow
Bolshoy Vlasyevskiy per. 11
Moscow 119002
Russia
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