From Johannes.Helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Mon Aug 1 08:20:51 2011 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:20:51 +0200 Subject: Antw: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Bob, this is a great initiative and opportunity and I would certainly opt for it. I wasn't able to come to this year's SCLC conference because I was overloaden with obligations of different kinds at my home university. I regret this very much and promise to change for the better in the future. So, if you need help with regard to the organization I am ready to volunteer. Best, Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakultät für Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universität Regensburg Universitätsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-3329 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de >>> "Rankin, Robert L" schrieb am 29.07.2011 um 23:23 in Nachricht <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF at EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>: > Dear friends and colleagues, > > The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field > linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an > opportunity to “piggyback” next year’s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one > media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, > the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the “Co-Lang workshop”. > Inexpensive “student housing” may also be available. This arrangement would > enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of “real” field > investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would > also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be > a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year’s > conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. > > I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks > if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. > You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin > at ku dot edu. > > Bob From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:48:51 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 04:48:51 -0700 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Bob,   This sounds extremely tempting, but it's the same problem every year: June is one of the busiest months for oral exams at U Munich, so it's difficult for me to attend SCLCs. In other words, it looks like this will not happen next year, either.   Best, Regina --- On Fri, 7/29/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. To: "Siouan list" , David.Kaufman at hooch.colorado.edu Date: Friday, July 29, 2011, 3:23 PM Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June.  We have an opportunity to “piggyback” next year’s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop.  We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the “Co-Lang workshop”.  Inexpensive “student housing” may also be available.  This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of “real” field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts.  Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants.  This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year’s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year.  I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility.  Please let me know what you think.  You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 2 13:32:21 2011 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:32:21 -0500 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. Message-ID: Like everyone else who has replied, I think this sounds like a great idea. It's too bad June is problematic for some European colleagues, but there's never a time that works for everyone. Thanks, Bob -- Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/29/11 5:55 PM >>> Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an opportunity to “piggyback” next year’s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the “Co-Lang workshop”. Inexpensive “student housing” may also be available. This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of “real” field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year’s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 14:54:33 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:54:33 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String Message-ID: The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language?   Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 3 22:23:43 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:23:43 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312383273.48517.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 06:48:52 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 23:48:52 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D8612@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people   So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong?   ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people?           Scott P. Collins   --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'.  I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also.  If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 4 11:03:39 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:39 +0100 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D8612@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. Does anyone have a derivation for it? Bruce --- On Wed, 3/8/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > From: Rankin, Robert L > Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" > Date: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011, 23:23 > 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages > I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or > 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords > 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo > also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just > 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', > you'd have it. > > Bob > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > > The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the > adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is > kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the > Tutelo-Saponi language? > > > > Scott P. Collins > > > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Aug 4 12:19:50 2011 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:19:50 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Numeral systems of World's languages (Canada and USA) Message-ID: As you can see, I provided some data for this study a couple years ago. Can any of you help him out with some of the gaps in in work? - Linda ----- Forwarded message from eugenechans at hkbn.net ----- Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:41:24 +0800 From: "Eugene S. L. Chan" Reply-To: "Eugene S. L. Chan" Subject: RE: Numeral systems of World's languages (Canada and USA) To: "'Cumberland, Linda'" Dear Linda, Greetings from Hong Kong, I have received new data from many small languages around the world these three years, but I am still looking for numeral systems for some of the following native languages in Canada and USA, I am sending you a simple questionnaire, maybe you and your colleagues or students could help me with numeral systems for some of the following languages or help me with some contact e-mail addresses. A. Languages in Canada: Western Abenaki, Atikamekw, Carrier, Southern Carrier, Chilcotin, Comox, Moose Cree, Swampy Cree, Northern East Cree, Southern East Cree, Northern Haida, Eastern Canadian Inuktitut, Western Canadian Inuktitut, Kaska, Kutenai, Nisga'a, Central Ojibwa, Eastern Ojibwa, Western Ojibwa, Sekani, Northern Slavery, Southern Slavery, Tagish, Thompson, Northern Tutchone and Southern Tutchone B. Languages in USA: Achumawi, Ahtena, Jicarilla Apache, Kiowa Apache, Lipan Apache, Mescalero-Chiricahua Apache, Atsugewi, Cahuilla, Checto, Chinook, Chippewa, Cocopa, Columbia-Wenatchi, Comanche, Degexit'an, Eyak, Gwich'in, Han, Holikachuk, Hopi, Hupa, Jemez, Kalapuya, Karok, Kashaya, Kawaiisu, Koyukon, Kumiai, Upper Kuskokwin, Kutenai, Luiseno, Northeast Maidu, Northwest Maidu, Mandan, Lake Miwok, Northern Sierra Miwok, Plains Miwok, Nisenan, Ottawa, Northern Paiute, Central Pomo, Southeastern Pomo, Southern Pomo, Quechan, Southern Puget Sound Salish, Skagit, Snohomish, Spokane, Tanacross, Lower Tanana, Upper Tanana, Tubatulabal, Tututni, Ute-Southern Paiute, Wasco-Wishram, Washo, Wintu, Once again, thank you so much for your help. With best wishes, Eugene Website: http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/numeral/ -----Original Message----- From: Cumberland, Linda [mailto:lcumberl at indiana.edu] Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 10:32 To: Eugene S. L. Chan Subject: Re: Numeral systems of World's languages ( Assiniboine ) Dear Mr. Chan, I attach the Numbers section from my dissertation, A Grammar of Assiniboine" (c 2005). It is in MS Word, in a font called "Times Lakota" that includes a few special characters that Times New Roman does not include. Those fonts are also attached. Please feel free to contact me if you need further information or if you encounter problems opening the document. LAC Quoting "Eugene S. L. Chan" : > Dear Dr. Linda Cumberland, Greetings from Hong Kong! My name is Eugene Chan, I am a former member of SSILA (1990-1998) and I have just resumed the membership, I have been working on numeral systems of world's languages for many years. > I am now working with Prof. Bernard Comrie on documentations of numeral systems of world's languages, with special attentions on endangered numeral systems, as traditional numeral systems of small languages are susceptible to be replaced by dominant languages. I have built up a website hosted by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany and I will share all the data in due course to promote the research of small languages and raise the awareness of endangered numeral systems. However, I am still looking for updated data for Assiniboine and some native languages in USA , Canada and Mexico. > Today, from SSILA membership directory, I'm very glad to find your e-mail address, so I am now sending this e-mail for your help. > If time permits, would you mind doing me a favor? I will be very much appreciated if you could share me with the data on the numeral system for the Assiniboine language. If you agree to help me, I will send you a simple questionnaire. Thank you very much in advance for your support. With best wishes, Sincerely, Eugene Another Yahoo e-mail address: euslchan at yahoo.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: America-questionnaire-New-08.doc Type: application/msword Size: 93184 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: America-questionnaire-New-08.doc Type: application/msword Size: 93184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 21:55:48 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:55:48 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312455819.28702.YahooMailClassic@web29517.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. Does anyone have a derivation for it? I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica matches 'be none; not to be' in the other languages. For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. I don't have cognates for it in any of the other languages. The whole cognate set for 'to be none; not to be' is: GLOSS[ none, be/have; lack ProtoSIouan[ *-į́ke MAndan[ -įk- in wįk-óʔš ¦ none, have none ¦ rtc ProtoMissipValley[ *rįkE ProtoDAkotan[ *nįkA LA[ waníčA ¦ there are none ¦ rtc; ej LA[ níčA ¦ to be destitute of, have none of ¦ EB:36a??? DA[ níća ¦ be destitute of, have none of ¦ R-340b ST[ nį́ǰa ¦ ¦ pas ProtoWinnChiwere[ *nį́ke CH[ ñį́ŋe ~ ñį́ge ¦ none, be without ¦ rlr MO[ †nį́ge ¦ ning ga, niing g’, nega, neeg’ ¦ blind ¦ L&C WI[ -nįk in ¦ blind ¦ KM:1090 ProtoDHegiha[ *rįke OP[ -ðįgé ¦ be none ¦ jek KS[ -yįge ¦ be nothing ¦ rlr OS[ †ðį́ke ¦ thíⁿge ¦ have none, nothing ¦ FL32:148a QU[ niké ¦ have none ¦ JOD PfotoBiloxiOfo[ *níki BI[ †níki ¦ níḳi, níki ¦ be without, have none ¦ DS:236b OF[ †-nį́ki ¦ aⁿtoníki ¦ blind ¦ DS:323a OF[ ¦ abáthe tĭnĭñki ¦ I have no dress ¦ DS:324b COMmentary[ The DHegiha forms show varying consonant nasalization and accent that are not regular. BI and OF in turn lack any indication of vowel nasalization that should have been reinforced by a preceding {n} (we might have expected BI *niñḳi). So there are some interesting irregularities here that may have something indirectly to do with the MA initial. We suspect that the {*r} here is one of those inserted to break up clusters of vowels, in this case, a late pronominal prefix vowel and a root-initial {*i} What we are suggesting is that {*wį•, *rį•} {1sg, 2sg patient} were separate clitics, not prefixes, in PSI (and there is much independent evidence to support this analysis). We suppose the MA {w} could come from {wa} {absolutive} with collapse of V1V1. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 22:02:53 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:02:53 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312440532.64561.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 22:15:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:15:33 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312440532.64561.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, my original response got erased when my router rebooted. There's no real way to know what the exact word for orphan would have been in Tutelo, but we can come up with something that speakers would have recognized at least by combining 'mother' and 'to be or have none; not to be'. In Oliverio the word for 'be none' or 'not to be' is either /yaha/ or /yahą/. Of the two, I'd select the latter, with the nasal /ą/, since it doesn't take much to miss the nasality of the vowel, whereas it would be very strange to see it added for no reason. Given the verb form, I'd make up a word /hena-yahą'/ for 'orphan'. If you said that to a Tutelo, he'd have understood it, even if he might have picked a more colloquial way to say it. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Tutelo doesn't have a form like /nįke/ or /nįka/ for 'to be none, to have none'. Both Biloxi and Ofo have it, as do most of the other Siouan languages in one form or another. Maybe a little deeper search in Oliverio will reveal it hiding away in some word like 'blind' or 'deaf'. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From saponi360 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 04:12:43 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:12:43 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D99FE@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: nikas means "and" in Tutelo-Saponi   Scott P. Collins   --- On Thu, 8/4/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011, 5:15 PM Sorry, my original response got erased when my router rebooted. There's no real way to know what the exact word for orphan would have been in Tutelo, but we can come up with something that speakers would have recognized at least by combining 'mother' and 'to be or have none; not to be'.  In Oliverio the word for 'be none' or 'not to be' is either /yaha/ or /yahą/.  Of the two, I'd select the latter, with the nasal /ą/, since it doesn't take much to miss the nasality of the vowel, whereas it would be very strange to see it added for no reason. Given the verb form, I'd make up a word /hena-yahą'/ for 'orphan'.  If you said that to a Tutelo, he'd have understood it, even if he might have picked a more colloquial way to say it. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Tutelo doesn't have a form like /nįke/ or /nįka/ for 'to be none, to have none'.  Both Biloxi and Ofo have it, as do most of the other Siouan languages in one form or another.  Maybe a little deeper search in Oliverio will reveal it hiding away in some word like 'blind' or 'deaf'. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'.  I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also.  If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at lakhota.org Fri Aug 5 09:25:37 2011 From: jfu at lakhota.org (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:25:37 +0200 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D99DC@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: >> I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' >> wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica >> being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. >> Does anyone have a derivation for it? > I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica > matches 'be none; not to be' in the other languages. > For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. > I don't have cognates for it in any of the other languages. Bob, Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? Jan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 11:20:47 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:20:47 +0100 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <001101cc5351$a3134ff0$e939efd0$@org> Message-ID: It could of course have nothing to do with the Lakota -nica 'not exist', but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce --- On Fri, 5/8/11, Jan Ullrich wrote: > From: Jan Ullrich > Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Friday, 5 August, 2011, 10:25 > > >> I always wondered whether the Lakota word for > 'orphan' > >> wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica > part, nica > >> being a stem meaning 'not to > exist'. > >> Does anyone have a derivation for it? > > > I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica > > > matches 'be none; not to be' in the other > languages. > > For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. > > I don't have cognates for it in any of the other > languages. > > Bob, > > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is > not part of wablenica. What do you think? > > Jan > > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 5 14:37:00 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 14:37:00 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312517563.31512.YahooMailClassic@web83505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doesn't mean there isn't a homonym hiding somewhere in one of the examples that means 'be none'. > nikas means "and" in Tutelo-Saponi From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 5 15:05:03 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:05:03 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' Message-ID: > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc. I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . . but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs. For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'. In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg ho- a-xpe, 2sg ho-ra-xpe, 3sg ho xpe 1pl oN-ho xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically. I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself. Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob From pustetrm at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:11:27 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:11:27 -0700 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D9BD5@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to that of wablenica 'orphan'. But the position of ma- '1SG.PAT' is variable in waxpanica. Although Buechel has ma-waxpanica, I have recorded wa-ma-xpanica as well. The etymology of waxpanica is a lot clearer than that of wablenica: waxpaye 'baggage' (according to Buechel), plus nica, this time cogently the 'lack' word for semantic reasons. Given that the position of ma- is not necessarily fixed in compounds of this type, I'd vote for nica 'lack' as a component of wablenica. As for the wable component: no idea. Regina --- On Fri, 8/5/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Dakota 'orphan' To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 9:05 AM > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc.  I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . .  but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs.  For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'.  In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg      ho- a-xpe, 2sg      ho-ra-xpe, 3sg      ho      xpe 1pl oN-ho      xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg  a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg      hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically.  I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself.  Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at lakhota.org Wed Aug 10 19:52:42 2011 From: jfu at lakhota.org (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 21:52:42 +0200 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <1312564287.25667.YahooMailClassic@web110311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'. I agree that re-analyses if often a factor in shifting the affixation spot and that it could be the case in wablenica, just as it obviously is in waxpanicA. But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the “nica” component of wablenica comes from the verb “nicA” ‘to lack sth’. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. I am not saying it is not possible, but there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > But the position of ma- '1SG.PAT' > is variable in waxpanica. Although Buechel has ma-waxpanica, > I have recorded wa-ma-xpanica as well. Buechel borrowed the 1st singular form from Riggs (see page 502 in the 1992 edition) and as far as I can tell it hasn’t been attested by a native Lakota speaker nor through authentic Lakota texts. It is possible that mawaxpanice is the 1st singular form in the Santee-Sisseton dialect but in Lakota the affix ‑ma- is rarely used in front of the indefinite object marker ‑wa- (I only know a couple of verbs where it is in this position). So until it is attested I consider the form given in Buechel’s dictionary (i.e. mawaxpanice) to be an error, at least for Lakota. There is plenty of evidence that Buechel borrowed an extensive number of inaccuracies and Dakota (i.e. non-Lakota) forms from Riggs and this is likely one of them. Authentic texts (including texts from the Buechel collection) give the form wamaxpanice. This form is also given in the grammar by Boas & Deloria. Jan --- On Fri, 8/5/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Dakota 'orphan' To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 9:05 AM > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc. I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . . but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs. For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'. In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg ho- a-xpe, 2sg ho-ra-xpe, 3sg ho xpe 1pl oN-ho xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically. I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself. Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 08:15:47 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:15:47 -0700 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' Message-ID: > The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'.  I agree that re-analyses if often a factor in shifting the affixation spot and that it could be the case in wablenica, just as it obviously is in waxpanicA. But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the “nica” component of wablenica comes from the verb “nicA” ‘to lack sth’. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. Regina From: "Jan Ullrich" Add sender to Contacts To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU  > The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'.    there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem though. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator (?) -ni (as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody') looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me on semantic grounds. Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From STrechter at csuchico.edu Thu Aug 11 14:55:03 2011 From: STrechter at csuchico.edu (Trechter, Sara) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:55:03 -0700 Subject: FW: grant application Message-ID: Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Thu Aug 11 15:07:23 2011 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:07:23 -0700 Subject: FW: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Sara! Trechter, Sara wrote: > Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. > > > Dr. Sara Trechter > Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies > CSU, Chico > Chico, CA 95929-0875 > 530 898 4473 > > Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. > John Maynard Keynes > > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: "Richard R. Mann" > Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM > Subject: grant application > To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > >> Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people >> >> in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires >> >> that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 12 04:30:24 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 04:30:24 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <1313050547.59497.YahooMailClassic@web110308.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. The other two are *š (with ž allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix). Dakotan compounds *š and *ni. Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into škųni. It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb. But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'. "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut. It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old. I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says. I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested. Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the “nica” component of wablenica comes from the verb “nicA” ‘to lack sth’. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 12 13:35:33 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:35:33 -0500 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DA68B@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob wrote: > *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. I had it in mind that there was no *[n] or *[m] in proto-Siouan, and that the nasal consonants in modern Siouan languages are really just nasalized versions of *[r] and *[w] (or *[R] and *[W]). Am I mis-remembering, or should the negative morpheme here be reconstructed as *riN for Siouan in general? Great discussion, by the way. Thanks to all participants! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 13:27:25 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:27:25 -0500 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DA68B@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob: I would be interested in your paper, in order to better understand "Ablaut." jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. The other two are *š (with ž allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix). Dakotan compounds *š and *ni. Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into škųni. It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb. But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'. "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut. It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old. I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says. I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested. Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the “nica” component of wablenica comes from the verb “nicA” ‘to lack sth’. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 12 15:28:33 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:28:33 +0100 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me too Bruce --- On Fri, 12/8/11, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: From: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Re: Dakota 'orphan' To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, 12 August, 2011, 14:27 Bob: I would be interested in your paper, in order to better understand "Ablaut."  jimm   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages.  The other two are *š (with ž allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix).  Dakotan compounds *š and *ni.  Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into škųni.  It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb.  But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'.  "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut.  It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old.  I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says.  I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested.  Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the “nica” component of wablenica comes from the verb “nicA” ‘to lack sth’. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 12 15:41:23 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:41:23 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, Rory, I just got sloppy. I tire easily of trying to wrangle those nasal vowel symbols into my emails, so I moved the nasality to the consonants. *ni should be *riN, no doubt about it. I'll try not to do that. I guess I need to get that SIL keyboard program to make things easier. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Rory M Larson [rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:35 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' Bob wrote: > *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. I had it in mind that there was no *[n] or *[m] in proto-Siouan, and that the nasal consonants in modern Siouan languages are really just nasalized versions of *[r] and *[w] (or *[R] and *[W]). Am I mis-remembering, or should the negative morpheme here be reconstructed as *riN for Siouan in general? Great discussion, by the way. Thanks to all participants! Rory From Greer-J at mssu.edu Fri Aug 19 22:12:12 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:12:12 +0000 Subject: FW: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:55 AM To: Siouan List Subject: FW: grant application Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From Greer-J at mssu.edu Fri Aug 19 22:54:50 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:54:50 +0000 Subject: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry, all, to have repeated this. They switched our email accounts here, and I was working my way through the old mail in my inbox, and I didn't want to delete this. I hope Iren noticed it? Jill Greer -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 5:12 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: FW: grant application -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:55 AM To: Siouan List Subject: FW: grant application Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From saponi360 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:31:02 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:31:02 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings?  Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 13:40:07 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:40:07 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1313969462.58592.YahooMailClassic@web83502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Aloha Scott, We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: mi-moon qu'ga- marked Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" on its face. So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: win-feminine xti-very, really Or, "very female". Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 Scott Collins Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/21/11 06:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Omaha and Lakota Words I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 22 16:39:31 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:39:31 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words Message-ID: winkte is usually said to mean 'someone wishing to be a woman' win 'woman' -kte 'marker of future or wish or intent'. However I don't know whether that is universally agreed upon as a derivation. Bruce --- On Mon, 22/8/11, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Monday, 22 August, 2011, 0:31 I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 16:40:05 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:40:05 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Scott wrote: > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? The root mi(N) in mi(N)-x^uga is almost certainly the archaic root for 'woman' that exists only in combining form in Omaha. It should be the cognate of wiN in Lakhota wiNkte, which is still an active word for 'woman'. Both words refer to an MtF transgendered person, i.e. a male who is inclined to be female. The Dakotan kte (ktA) is the potential particle cognate to Omaha tte. The combination wiN-kte could probably be translated literally as "would-be woman" or "inclined to be female". In Dhegiha, the root mi(N) meaning 'woman' is confusable with the root mi(N), cognate with Dakotan wi, meaning 'sun' or 'heavenly body'. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 132 ff) understand the initial mi to mean 'moon', and record some Osage stories and lore about the condition which explain it as being the result of dreaming about the moon (woman) during the young men's vision quest. In their dream, they lose a handgame with her, and wind up holding the burdon strap instead of the bow and arrows. Thenceforth, they must live, speak and dress as women. The authors tell us that x^uga means 'to instruct', and interpret mi-x^uga to mean "instructed by the moon". Outside of this reference, we do not seem to have any knowledge of a word x^uga that means 'instruct' or 'instructed'. The term x^uga does mean 'badger'. In either case, the -ga is probably a type of stative suffix, so we would be looking for a root meaning of x^u. There is a root g^u, having a voiced rather than voiceless velar fricative, that means 'mark', which appears in ri-g^u, 'to draw', and ba-g^u, 'to write'. I am not sure how sharp the phonemic distinction is between /x^/ and /g^/, because the former is much more common in initial position and the latter in the interior of words. Badgers, x^u-ga, notably have a white stripe up their nose, so they could be considered characteristically 'marked' if we suppose that the x^u in their name is the same as the g^u in ri-g^u and ba-g^u. If so, then mi(N)-x^uga could be translated as "marked as woman" rather than as "instructed by woman". This is just a suggestion, though, which rides on a questionable supposition. We really don't know yet what the x^u in mi(N)-x^uga means. But the whole term probably means something like "woman-inclined", one who is inclined to be a woman. The mi(N)-x^uga term seems to be general in Dhegiha. I believe I have also run into the same construction in IOM, or possibly Hochunk, so this is probably an older term than Lakhota wiN-kte. I wonder if Jimm or Iren could add anything here? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 17:28:45 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From the Dorsey slip file: http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/miN/opd.02.128.01a.jpg http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/miN/opd.02.128.01c.jpg miN'quga Rory's reference to "being instructed" reminded me of the male phrase used to address the singers when passing by the drum after receiving a gift from someone "Qu'kka woNgithe", which usually would elicit a round of "aho" from the group. I don't think women would use the term, but older ones will lulu as they pass, gaining the "aho" response from the drum. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/qp/opd.03.029.06b.jpg qu'ka singers for a dance; one who initiates someone into a secret society http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/qp/opd.03.029.06c.jpg Qu'ka "Singers", a subdivision of an Omaha clan Perhaps this is just tangential to the question at hand. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Rory M Larson Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/22/11 11:43 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott wrote: > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? The root mi(N) in mi(N)-x^uga is almost certainly the archaic root for 'woman' that exists only in combining form in Omaha. It should be the cognate of wiN in Lakhota wiNkte, which is still an active word for 'woman'. Both words refer to an MtF transgendered person, i.e. a male who is inclined to be female. The Dakotan kte (ktA) is the potential particle cognate to Omaha tte. The combination wiN-kte could probably be translated literally as "would-be woman" or "inclined to be female". In Dhegiha, the root mi(N) meaning 'woman' is confusable with the root mi(N), cognate with Dakotan wi, meaning 'sun' or 'heavenly body'. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 132 ff) understand the initial mi to mean 'moon', and record some Osage stories and lore about the condition which explain it as being the result of dreaming about the moon (woman) during the young men's vision quest. In their dream, they lose a handgame with her, and wind up holding the burdon strap instead of the bow and arrows. Thenceforth, they must live, speak and dress as women. The authors tell us that x^uga means 'to instruct', and interpret mi-x^uga to mean "instructed by the moon". Outside of this reference, we do not seem to have any knowledge of a word x^uga that means 'instruct' or 'instructed'. The term x^uga does mean 'badger'. In either case, the -ga is probably a type of stative suffix, so we would be looking for a root meaning of x^u. There is a root g^u, having a voiced rather than voiceless velar fricative, that means 'mark', which appears in ri-g^u, 'to draw', and ba-g^u, 'to write'. I am not sure how sharp the phonemic distinction is between /x^/ and /g^/, because the former is much more common in initial position and the latter in the interior of words. Badgers, x^u-ga, notably have a white stripe up their nose, so they could be considered characteristically 'marked' if we suppose that the x^u in their name is the same as the g^u in ri-g^u and ba-g^u. If so, then mi(N)-x^uga could be translated as "marked as woman" rather than as "instructed by woman". This is just a suggestion, though, which rides on a questionable supposition. We really don't know yet what the x^u in mi(N)-x^uga means. But the whole term probably means something like "woman-inclined", one who is inclined to be a woman. The mi(N)-x^uga term seems to be general in Dhegiha. I believe I have also run into the same construction in IOM, or possibly Hochunk, so this is probably an older term than Lakhota wiN-kte. I wonder if Jimm or Iren could add anything here? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 22 17:48:24 2011 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:48:24 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 22 22:05:07 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:05:07 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 22 22:13:31 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:13:31 +0000 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <4E37B6160200008E0003B8EB@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, All of the responses I got both on and off list to my proposal to hold the 2012 Siouan Conference in conjunction with the Co-Lang workshop at the University of Kansas, as described below, were very positive. No one had anything negative to say, so unless I get complaints I'll go ahead and plan to have our next meeting here in Lawrence. More details as soon as they are available. Bob ________________________________________ From: Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 8:32 AM To: David.Kaufman at hooch.colorado.edu; Rankin, Robert L; siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. Like everyone else who has replied, I think this sounds like a great idea. It's too bad June is problematic for some European colleagues, but there's never a time that works for everyone. Thanks, Bob -- Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/29/11 5:55 PM >>> Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an opportunity to “piggyback” next year’s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the “Co-Lang workshop”. Inexpensive “student housing” may also be available. This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of “real” field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year’s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 23:16:37 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference > in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. Lakhota Omaha ------- ----- sun/moon wi mi`(N) woman wiN mi_(N) I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer a factor. In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality and ruin the distinction. As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 06:24:39 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:24:39 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob wrote: 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.  It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.  'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.  Lakota -ktA 'future, etc.' is also frequently used with an intentional meaning, as in iyayiN-kte 's/he wanted to leave (go-intentional'). So the 'woman + want' etymology for wiNkte 'homosexual' sounds fine to me. Regina ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:05 AM Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.  2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.  Dakotan wi is very irregular.  The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.  Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.  'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.  4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.  It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.  'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.  5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.  Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.  WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.  Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.  kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'.         I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization.         David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 15:39:01 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:39:01 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My thanks to all of you for helping me to understand these words and how they are put together.   I'm attempting to reconstruct this word in Tutelo-Saponi. I have the word woman...mahe or miha. I cannot seem to find the word teach, instruct, dream, 'to want', or badger.   There is a word for causitive mode...-hiye. Another word maybe...kise (perhaps) and kisonik (may be). {irrealis}   If Proto-Siouan has kte and the Biloxi retains this meaning as 'to make', is it possible that kte has the same meaning in Tutelo-Saponi?         Scott P. Collins   --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 5:05 PM I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.  2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.  Dakotan wi is very irregular.  The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.  Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.  'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.  4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.  It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.  'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.  5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.  Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.  WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.  Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.  kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'.         I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization.         David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 23 15:42:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:42:33 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314113941.92329.YahooMailClassic@web83504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think Tutelo has just ta. Check will or future. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Scott Collins Sender: Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:39:01 To: Reply-To: Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words My thanks to all of you for helping me to understand these words and how they are put together.   I'm attempting to reconstruct this word in Tutelo-Saponi. I have the word woman...mahe or miha. I cannot seem to find the word teach, instruct, dream, 'to want', or badger.   There is a word for causitive mode...-hiye. Another word maybe...kise (perhaps) and kisonik (may be). {irrealis}   If Proto-Siouan has kte and the Biloxi retains this meaning as 'to make', is it possible that kte has the same meaning in Tutelo-Saponi?         Scott P. Collins   --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 5:05 PM I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.  2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.  Dakotan wi is very irregular.  The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.  Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.  'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.  4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.  It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.  'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.  5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.  Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.  WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.  Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.  kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'.         I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization.         David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at mssu.edu Tue Aug 23 17:02:56 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:02:56 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science MSSU Joplin, MO 65801 Greer-j at mssu.edu -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities > of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American > Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of > Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in > Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and > literal meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 23 18:26:05 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:26:05 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Strangely enough in Arabic qamar 'moon' is masculine and shams 'sun' feminine. Also the nouns meaning 'pregnant' Haamil, 'menstruating' HayiDH, 'breast feeding' murDHi' and 'old lady' 'ajuuz lack the expected feminine suffix -ah. This could be because logically men cannot be these things or possibly it is some sort of taboo. Bruce --- On Tue, 23/8/11, Greer, Jill wrote: > From: Greer, Jill > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" > Date: Tuesday, 23 August, 2011, 18:02 > I can't contribute much either, > except the obvious biological association between the length > of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's > menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to > Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a > euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to > the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? > (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California > might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face > during sleep, along with associations of women's > reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and > a connection to the moon. > > Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My > grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her > husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, > referencing Grandmother Moon. > > Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her > autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th > century. More info is probably out > there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural > delicacy and broach the subject? > > Jill > > Jill D. Greer > Department of Social Science > MSSU > Joplin, MO 65801 > Greer-j at mssu.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > > I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a > couple of things that can be said. > > 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for > 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. > > 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for > 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and > 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word > has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which > nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is > similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. > > 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so > that is quite different. > > 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its > source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It > retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other > languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense > or potential mode marker in many languages including > English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing > strange here. > > 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, > the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be > folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the > cultures may be better at explaining these things than a > hard core linguist. > > Bob > > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > > Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology > of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is > indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final > element in almost all women's names, for example. > Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci > or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, > usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning > could be something like 'will be a woman' > or 'might be a woman'. > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi > are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota > 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > > Aloha Scott, > > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > > > mi-moon > > qu'ga- marked > > > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished > by the clear "mark" > > on its face. > > > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the > feminine/female qualities > > of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha > perspectiv as: > > > > win-feminine > > xti-very, really > > > > Or, "very female". > > > > Mark > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic > Studies Native American > > Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska > Department of > > Anthropology > > 841 Oldfather Hall > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > Phone 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > > > > > Scott Collins > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > > Please respond to > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > > > > To > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > cc > > > > Subject > > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the > word mexoga in > > Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root > words and > > literal meanings? > > > > Scott P. Collins > > > > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information > that is subject to protection under state and federal law. > This information is intended for the use of the individual > named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the > contents of this information is prohibited and may be > punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by > electronic mail (reply). > > From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Aug 24 06:42:35 2011 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary C Marino) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:42:35 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The expression prevalent among Dakota speakers in Canada for the menses is is(nathi 'she camps/dwells alone'. (is(na 'alone', thi 'dwell/camp 3sg'). Dakota-speaking women would sometimes use the Dakota expression to me while conversing in English. If they knew I was having my period, and I happened to mention the moon, they might joke about that, but I never heard or elicited any local Dakota term for menstruation which included *wi* 'moon'. I hope I have put no one to the blush. Mary On 23/08/2011 11:02 AM, Greer, Jill wrote: > I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. > > Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. > > Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? > > Jill > > Jill D. Greer > Department of Social Science > MSSU > Joplin, MO 65801 > Greer-j at mssu.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > > I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. > > 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. > > 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. > > 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. > > 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. > > 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. > > Bob > > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > > Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' > or 'might be a woman'. > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > >> Aloha Scott, >> We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: >> >> mi-moon >> qu'ga- marked >> >> Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" >> on its face. >> >> So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities >> of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. >> >> >> I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: >> >> win-feminine >> xti-very, really >> >> Or, "very female". >> >> Mark >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Anthropology& Ethnic Studies Native American >> Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of >> Anthropology >> 841 Oldfather Hall >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> Phone 402-472-3455 >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> >> >> Scott Collins >> Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> 08/21/11 06:34 PM >> Please respond to >> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> >> >> To >> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> cc >> >> Subject >> Omaha and Lakota Words >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in >> Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and >> literal meanings? >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 24 17:09:53 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:09:53 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <4E549D5B.8030907@usask.ca> Message-ID: Same in Lakota.  Also tȟaŋkal yaŋkapi ’to sit outside (the tipi)’  No blushing.  As they say in Arabic laa Hayaa fil'ilm 'there is no shame in science'.  At least I think it's Arabic. Bruce --- On Wed, 24/8/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Wednesday, 24 August, 2011, 7:42 The expression prevalent among Dakota speakers in Canada for the menses is išnathi  'she camps/dwells alone'. (išna 'alone', thi 'dwell/camp 3sg').   Dakota-speaking women would sometimes use the Dakota expression to me while conversing in English.  If they knew I was having my period, and I happened to mention the moon, they might joke about that, but I never heard or elicited any local Dakota term for menstruation which included wi 'moon'. I hope I have put no one to the blush. Mary     On 23/08/2011 11:02 AM, Greer, Jill wrote: I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science MSSU Joplin, MO 65801 Greer-j at mssu.edu -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: Aloha Scott, We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: mi-moon qu'ga- marked Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" on its face. So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: win-feminine xti-very, really Or, "very female". Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 Scott Collins Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/21/11 06:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Omaha and Lakota Words I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 07:16:09 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 00:16:09 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words.   On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw also?     Scott P. Collins --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: From: Rory M Larson Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM David wrote: >                   I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference > in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the meaning of 'woman'.  We are dealing with two separate roots here, but in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused.               Lakhota           Omaha               -------           -----   sun/moon      wi               mi`(N)   woman         wiN              mi_(N) I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha.  The 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch.  In terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long.  (There is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less common, and which is neither of these.)  However, this interpretation clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long.  Perhaps Omaha has reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer a factor. In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or not, because /w/ is an oral consonant.  In Dhegiha, this /w/ has become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality and ruin the distinction. As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally.  It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha.  The mi_(N) term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo.  But the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'.  In the case of mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 12:42:05 2011 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:42:05 -0400 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314256569.97264.YahooMailClassic@web83506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda Quoting Scott Collins : > In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton > from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these > halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of > the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the > Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. > Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >   > On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories > about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk > stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may > have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw > also?   >   > > > Scott P. Collins > > > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > From: Rory M Larson > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM > > > David wrote: >>                   I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >> the difference >> in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > > David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the > meaning of 'woman'.  We are dealing with two separate roots here, but > in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. > >               Lakhota           Omaha >               -------           ----- > >   sun/moon      wi               mi`(N) > >   woman         wiN              mi_(N) > > I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there > is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha.  The > 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, > while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch.  In > terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking > at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, > falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long.  (There > is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less > common, and which is neither of these.)  However, this interpretation > clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary > and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which > have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long.  Perhaps Omaha has > reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer > a factor. > > In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or > not, because /w/ is an oral consonant.  In Dhegiha, this /w/ has > become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality > and ruin the distinction. > > As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped > out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >  It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha.  The mi_(N) > term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes > contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo.  But > the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native > speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'.  In the case of > mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as > mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception > as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. > > Rory > From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 15:08:47 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:08:47 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <20110825084205.vke919964ossw0k4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Any tribes that have correlations on these topics would be interesting.     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: From: Cumberland, Linda A Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 7:42 AM Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda Quoting Scott Collins : > In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton > from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these > halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of > the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the > Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. > Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >   > On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories > about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk > stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may > have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw > also?   >   > > > Scott P. Collins > > > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > From: Rory M Larson > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM > > > David wrote: >>                   I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >> the difference >> in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > > David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the > meaning of 'woman'.  We are dealing with two separate roots here, but > in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. > >               Lakhota           Omaha >               -------           ----- > >   sun/moon      wi               mi`(N) > >   woman         wiN              mi_(N) > > I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there > is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha.  The > 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, > while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch.  In > terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking > at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, > falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long.  (There > is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less > common, and which is neither of these.)  However, this interpretation > clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary > and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which > have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long.  Perhaps Omaha has > reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer > a factor. > > In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or > not, because /w/ is an oral consonant.  In Dhegiha, this /w/ has > become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality > and ruin the distinction. > > As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped > out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >  It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha.  The mi_(N) > term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes > contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo.  But > the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native > speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'.  In the case of > mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as > mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception > as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. > > Rory > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at usask.ca Thu Aug 25 16:25:15 2011 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary C Marino) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:25:15 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <20110825084205.vke919964ossw0k4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>> I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >> Lakhota Omaha >> ------- ----- >> >> sun/moon wi mi`(N) >> >> woman wiN mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >> It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > From saponi360 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 05:48:43 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 22:48:43 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <4E56776B.4080500@usask.ca> Message-ID: Me too... Scott P. Collins   --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 11:25 AM I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>>                   I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning.  Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'.  We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >>               Lakhota           Omaha >>               -------           ----- >> >>   sun/moon      wi               mi`(N) >> >>   woman         wiN              mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha.  The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch.  In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long.  (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.)  However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long.  Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant.  In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >>  It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha.  The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo.  But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'.  In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 12:02:47 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:02:47 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314337723.67467.YahooMailClassic@web83506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Include me on the story list! From: Scott Collins Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Me too... Scott P. Collins --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 11:25 AM I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>> I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >> Lakhota Omaha >> ------- ----- >> >> sun/moon wi mi`(N) >> >> woman wiN mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >> It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 21:26:09 2011 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:26:09 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another couple of concepts Dorsey describes as related to sexuality in Omaha and Ponca are "spotted turtle" and "striped turtle". I have no idea of the cultural background behind these but thought they might interest y'all. Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 01:05:49 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:05:49 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So then, what did Dorsey have to say about these terms?? Don't keep us in suspence! From: Bryan James Gordon Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 4:26 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Another couple of concepts Dorsey describes as related to sexuality in Omaha and Ponca are "spotted turtle" and "striped turtle". I have no idea of the cultural background behind these but thought they might interest y'all. Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 29 18:28:24 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:28:24 -0500 Subject: list relocation notification Message-ID: Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello! This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 04:06:47 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:06:47 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for the update. Seems to be working well. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- On Mon, 8/29/11, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Subject: list relocation notification To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, August 29, 2011, 1:28 PM Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello!  This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages.  Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on.  Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU Mon Aug 29 17:47:42 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:47:42 -0500 Subject: testing Message-ID: THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Tue Aug 30 16:46:51 2011 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:46:51 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It works for me. Randy Graczyk -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: SIOUAN Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 11:48 am Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Tue Aug 30 16:53:36 2011 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:53:36 -0400 Subject: List verification Message-ID: Thanks for taking care of this, Mark. Randy From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 17:33:52 2011 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:33:52 -0500 Subject: List verification In-Reply-To: <8CE354C7EB5CD10-110C-70D1@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Indeed, Mark, Thanks, Wibra ho, Warigroxi ke, Muchas Gracias, Mercí For taking care of this for us all. I will forward to Saul, so that he too can send you back an EMail to be on this new list. -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:53 AM To: Subject: List verification > Thanks for taking care of this, Mark. > > Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Tue Aug 30 17:41:01 2011 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:41:01 -0700 Subject: List membership Message-ID: I appreciate the chance to continue on this list. Regards, Erik Hanson. From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 30 17:42:28 2011 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:42:28 +0000 Subject: Ablaut et al In-Reply-To: <1314707014.36016.YahooMailClassic@web29520.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bruce, This is indeed an interesting topic. There is a close correlation between Shaw's (and Carter's, etc.) Dakotan "consonant-final stems" and stems where the other Siouan languages have long vowels. The rule seems to have been: If the 1st syllable is long, it is accented; if it is short, accent the 2nd syllable. Or, it could be phrased in terms of morae. This begs the question whether or not Dakota had final vowels in the initial accent words. I'm off this afternoon on a short trip up to Omaha and Council Bluffs and will return to this issue when I get back. Best, Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:23 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Ablaut et al --- On Mon, 29/8/11, rankin at KU.EDU wrote: Bob, This is in reply to your earlier message , where you sent your article on Mississipi Valley Siouan "Ablaut". Thanks very much for that. I found it very interesting and noticed that you mentioned Shaw's work on Dakota phonology, which I read many years ago, there being a copy of it in the SOAS library. One thing which interested me in Shaw was her explanation of the exceptional initial stress in certain disyllabic stems, káǧa 'to make' being one I think. She posits an earlier monosyllabic, final consonantal form for these stems such as kaǧ- . I have never seen this discussed much and wondered what other Siouanists thought about it. It seems like a very neat analysis and parallels the argument of Greenberg about Semitic lexical stems which are now disyllabic in the majority such as katab 'to write'. He suggests that Semitic stems were originally monosyllabic (in fact bisonsonantal) and that the second syllable (or the third consonant depending on how you look at it) is a later addition allowing for lexical expansion, an initial qat- 'cut' giving later qata', qataf, qatam, qasar and others all realtable to the idea of 'cutting'. The other advantage is that it makes Semitic stems look more like Indo-European ones, which is attractive. Without wishing to appear to be talking Nostratic, I do like the idea of original monosyllabic stems, but of course it does get into difficult ground as to how far back you think you can go. I wonder whether it holds up in other Siouan languages. Bruce From ckopris at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 30 19:04:45 2011 From: ckopris at YAHOO.COM (Craig Kopris) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:04:45 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Works for me === Craig Kopris >________________________________ >From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland >To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu >Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:28 PM >Subject: list relocation notification > > >Aloha all SiouanList users, > >At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. > >The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. > >The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. > >It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > >I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. > >For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > >I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. >Hello!  This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages.  Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on.  Thanks! >Can this person contact the new UNL list? > >If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > >I understand that the list archives still function as before. > >Give me your feedback, please. > >Mark >Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >Native American Studies Program Liaison >University of Nebraska >Department of Anthropology >841 Oldfather Hall >Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > >http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >http://omahaponca.unl.edu >Phone 402-472-3455 >FAX: 402-472-9642 >----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- > >Mark J Awakuni-Swetland >Sent by: Siouan Linguistics >08/29/11 12:47 PM >Please respond to >Siouan Linguistics > To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >cc >Subject testing > > > > >THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > > >Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >Native American Studies Program Liaison >University of Nebraska >Department of Anthropology >841 Oldfather Hall >Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > >http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >http://omahaponca.unl.edu >Phone 402-472-3455 >FAX: 402-472-9642 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Tue Aug 30 19:10:12 2011 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:12 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification Message-ID: Fine for me. Marianne Mithun __________________________________________________ From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: list relocation notification Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello! This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- From pfreeouf at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 31 06:27:06 2011 From: pfreeouf at YAHOO.COM (P. Freeouf) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:27:06 -0700 Subject: list relocation Message-ID: siouan at listserve.unl.edu Thanks. All the best at the new location. Pete Freeouf From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Wed Aug 31 11:17:14 2011 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:17:14 +0100 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <1314704440.48547.YahooMailClassic@web29519.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Me too - is this a British thing? Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 30/08/2011 12:40 >>> I am getting it via the others it seems. Bruce --- On Mon, 29/8/11, Greer, Jill wrote: From: Greer, Jill Subject: Re: testing To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 19:19 “Roger, loud and clear in Joplin, MO” Jill P.S. Thanks, Mark! From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:48 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). Based on an award-winning 160-acre Campus near Liverpool, Edge Hill University has over 125 years of history as an innovative, successful and distinctive higher education provider. • Shortlisted for Times Higher Education University of the Year 2007 and 2010 • Top in the North West for overall student satisfaction (Sunday Times University Guide 2011) • Top Four in England for Graduate Employment (Higher Education Statistics Agency, 2010, all graduates, full & part time, first & foundation degrees) • Top 20 position, and the highest ranked university in 'The Sunday Times Best Places to Work in the Public Sector 2010' • Grade 1 'outstanding' judgements made in all 33 inspection cells, Ofsted Initial Teacher Education inspection report 12/5/2011 ----------------------------------------------------- This message is private and confidential. 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Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. ----------------------------------------------------- From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 31 12:14:02 2011 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:14:02 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And for me. -Linda Cumberland Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : > And for me, too. > > Ray DeMallie > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Mary C Marino > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: testing > > It works for me. > > Mary Marino > > On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > From vanvalin at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Aug 31 12:29:27 2011 From: vanvalin at BUFFALO.EDU (Robert Van Valin Jr) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:29:27 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <20110831081402.qrz889znkwosckc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Works for me. Robert Van Valin On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > And for me. -Linda Cumberland > > Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : > >> And for me, too. >> >> Ray DeMallie >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Mary C Marino >> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: testing >> >> It works for me. >> >> Mary Marino >> >> On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: >> THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >> Native American Studies Program Liaison >> University of Nebraska >> Department of Anthropology >> 841 Oldfather Hall >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> Phone 402-472-3455 >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> > > From munro at UCLA.EDU Wed Aug 31 14:31:37 2011 From: munro at UCLA.EDU (Pamela Munro) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:31:37 -0700 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <879EA3C5-D755-4EF7-B6A5-47E7F978E09C@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: And me. Robert Van Valin Jr wrote: > Works for me. > > Robert Van Valin > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > >> And for me. -Linda Cumberland >> >> Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : >> >> >>> And for me, too. >>> >>> Ray DeMallie >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>> Of Mary C Marino >>> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Re: testing >>> >>> It works for me. >>> >>> Mary Marino >>> >>> On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: >>> THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST >>> >>> >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >>> Native American Studies Program Liaison >>> University of Nebraska >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 841 Oldfather Hall >>> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >>> >>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >>> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >>> Phone 402-472-3455 >>> FAX: 402-472-9642 >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Aug 31 15:18:33 2011 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:18:33 -0500 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Got it. Louanna N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland [mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 From jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 23:05:36 2011 From: jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM (jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:05:36 +0000 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: works here On , Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha all SiouanList users, > At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages > Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took > place. > The consensus thinking is that the current > hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another > institution. > The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is > now the home of the SiouanList. > It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > I am reportedly the list owner. Since > I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should > be interesting. > For now, in order to verify list members, > please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > I received the following message that > illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name > attached. > Hello! This account is no longer being used > and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address > - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! > Can this person contact the new UNL > list? > If you know of anyone else wanting access > to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > I understand that the list archives > still function as before. > Give me your feedback, please. > Mark > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > ----- Forwarded by Mark > J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- > Mark J Awakuni-Swetland > mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU> > Sent by: Siouan Linguistics SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu> > 08/29/11 12:47 PM > Please respond to > Siouan Linguistics SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu> > To > SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > cc > Subject > testing > THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING > UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Mon Aug 1 08:20:51 2011 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:20:51 +0200 Subject: Antw: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Bob, this is a great initiative and opportunity and I would certainly opt for it. I wasn't able to come to this year's SCLC conference because I was overloaden with obligations of different kinds at my home university. I regret this very much and promise to change for the better in the future. So, if you need help with regard to the organization I am ready to volunteer. Best, Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakult?t f?r Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universit?t Regensburg Universit?tsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-3329 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de >>> "Rankin, Robert L" schrieb am 29.07.2011 um 23:23 in Nachricht <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF at EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>: > Dear friends and colleagues, > > The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field > linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an > opportunity to ?piggyback? next year?s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics > Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one > media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, > the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the ?Co-Lang workshop?. > Inexpensive ?student housing? may also be available. This arrangement would > enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of ?real? field > investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would > also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be > a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year?s > conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. > > I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks > if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. > You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin > at ku dot edu. > > Bob From pustetrm at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:48:51 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 04:48:51 -0700 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D7CBF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dear Bob, ? This sounds extremely tempting, but it's the same problem every year: June is one of the busiest months for oral exams at U Munich, so it's difficult for me to attend SCLCs. In other words, it looks like this will not happen next year, either. ? Best, Regina --- On Fri, 7/29/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. To: "Siouan list" , David.Kaufman at hooch.colorado.edu Date: Friday, July 29, 2011, 3:23 PM Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June.? We have an opportunity to ?piggyback? next year?s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop.? We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the ?Co-Lang workshop?.? Inexpensive ?student housing? may also be available.? This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of ?real? field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts.? Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants.? This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year?s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year.? I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility.? Please let me know what you think.? You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at wsc.edu Tue Aug 2 13:32:21 2011 From: carudin1 at wsc.edu (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:32:21 -0500 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. Message-ID: Like everyone else who has replied, I think this sounds like a great idea. It's too bad June is problematic for some European colleagues, but there's never a time that works for everyone. Thanks, Bob -- Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/29/11 5:55 PM >>> Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an opportunity to ?piggyback? next year?s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the ?Co-Lang workshop?. Inexpensive ?student housing? may also be available. This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of ?real? field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year?s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 14:54:33 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:54:33 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String Message-ID: The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya,?is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? ? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Aug 3 22:23:43 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:23:43 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312383273.48517.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 06:48:52 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 23:48:52 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D8612@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people ? So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ? --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'.? I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also.? If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 4 11:03:39 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:39 +0100 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D8612@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. Does anyone have a derivation for it? Bruce --- On Wed, 3/8/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: > From: Rankin, Robert L > Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" > Date: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011, 23:23 > 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages > I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or > 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords > 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo > also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just > 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', > you'd have it. > > Bob > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > > The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the > adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is > kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the > Tutelo-Saponi language? > > > > Scott P. Collins > > > From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Aug 4 12:19:50 2011 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:19:50 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: Numeral systems of World's languages (Canada and USA) Message-ID: As you can see, I provided some data for this study a couple years ago. Can any of you help him out with some of the gaps in in work? - Linda ----- Forwarded message from eugenechans at hkbn.net ----- Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:41:24 +0800 From: "Eugene S. L. Chan" Reply-To: "Eugene S. L. Chan" Subject: RE: Numeral systems of World's languages (Canada and USA) To: "'Cumberland, Linda'" Dear Linda, Greetings from Hong Kong, I have received new data from many small languages around the world these three years, but I am still looking for numeral systems for some of the following native languages in Canada and USA, I am sending you a simple questionnaire, maybe you and your colleagues or students could help me with numeral systems for some of the following languages or help me with some contact e-mail addresses. A. Languages in Canada: Western Abenaki, Atikamekw, Carrier, Southern Carrier, Chilcotin, Comox, Moose Cree, Swampy Cree, Northern East Cree, Southern East Cree, Northern Haida, Eastern Canadian Inuktitut, Western Canadian Inuktitut, Kaska, Kutenai, Nisga'a, Central Ojibwa, Eastern Ojibwa, Western Ojibwa, Sekani, Northern Slavery, Southern Slavery, Tagish, Thompson, Northern Tutchone and Southern Tutchone B. Languages in USA: Achumawi, Ahtena, Jicarilla Apache, Kiowa Apache, Lipan Apache, Mescalero-Chiricahua Apache, Atsugewi, Cahuilla, Checto, Chinook, Chippewa, Cocopa, Columbia-Wenatchi, Comanche, Degexit'an, Eyak, Gwich'in, Han, Holikachuk, Hopi, Hupa, Jemez, Kalapuya, Karok, Kashaya, Kawaiisu, Koyukon, Kumiai, Upper Kuskokwin, Kutenai, Luiseno, Northeast Maidu, Northwest Maidu, Mandan, Lake Miwok, Northern Sierra Miwok, Plains Miwok, Nisenan, Ottawa, Northern Paiute, Central Pomo, Southeastern Pomo, Southern Pomo, Quechan, Southern Puget Sound Salish, Skagit, Snohomish, Spokane, Tanacross, Lower Tanana, Upper Tanana, Tubatulabal, Tututni, Ute-Southern Paiute, Wasco-Wishram, Washo, Wintu, Once again, thank you so much for your help. With best wishes, Eugene Website: http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/numeral/ -----Original Message----- From: Cumberland, Linda [mailto:lcumberl at indiana.edu] Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 10:32 To: Eugene S. L. Chan Subject: Re: Numeral systems of World's languages ( Assiniboine ) Dear Mr. Chan, I attach the Numbers section from my dissertation, A Grammar of Assiniboine" (c 2005). It is in MS Word, in a font called "Times Lakota" that includes a few special characters that Times New Roman does not include. Those fonts are also attached. Please feel free to contact me if you need further information or if you encounter problems opening the document. LAC Quoting "Eugene S. L. Chan" : > Dear Dr. Linda Cumberland, Greetings from Hong Kong! My name is Eugene Chan, I am a former member of SSILA (1990-1998) and I have just resumed the membership, I have been working on numeral systems of world's languages for many years. > I am now working with Prof. Bernard Comrie on documentations of numeral systems of world's languages, with special attentions on endangered numeral systems, as traditional numeral systems of small languages are susceptible to be replaced by dominant languages. I have built up a website hosted by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany and I will share all the data in due course to promote the research of small languages and raise the awareness of endangered numeral systems. However, I am still looking for updated data for Assiniboine and some native languages in USA , Canada and Mexico. > Today, from SSILA membership directory, I'm very glad to find your e-mail address, so I am now sending this e-mail for your help. > If time permits, would you mind doing me a favor? I will be very much appreciated if you could share me with the data on the numeral system for the Assiniboine language. If you agree to help me, I will send you a simple questionnaire. Thank you very much in advance for your support. With best wishes, Sincerely, Eugene Another Yahoo e-mail address: euslchan at yahoo.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: America-questionnaire-New-08.doc Type: application/msword Size: 93184 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: America-questionnaire-New-08.doc Type: application/msword Size: 93184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 21:55:48 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:55:48 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312455819.28702.YahooMailClassic@web29517.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. Does anyone have a derivation for it? I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica matches 'be none; not to be' in the other languages. For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. I don't have cognates for it in any of the other languages. The whole cognate set for 'to be none; not to be' is: GLOSS[ none, be/have; lack ProtoSIouan[ *-??ke MAndan[ -?k- in w?k-??? ? none, have none ? rtc ProtoMissipValley[ *r?kE ProtoDAkotan[ *n?kA LA[ wan??A ? there are none ? rtc; ej LA[ n??A ? to be destitute of, have none of ? EB:36a??? DA[ n??a ? be destitute of, have none of ? R-340b ST[ n???a ? ? pas ProtoWinnChiwere[ *n??ke CH[ ????e ~ ???ge ? none, be without ? rlr MO[ ?n??ge ? ning ga, niing g?, nega, neeg? ? blind ? L&C WI[ -n?k in ? blind ? KM:1090 ProtoDHegiha[ *r?ke OP[ -??g? ? be none ? jek KS[ -y?ge ? be nothing ? rlr OS[ ????ke ? th??ge ? have none, nothing ? FL32:148a QU[ nik? ? have none ? JOD PfotoBiloxiOfo[ *n?ki BI[ ?n?ki ? n??i, n?ki ? be without, have none ? DS:236b OF[ ?-n??ki ? a?ton?ki ? blind ? DS:323a OF[ ? ab?the t?n??ki ? I have no dress ? DS:324b COMmentary[ The DHegiha forms show varying consonant nasalization and accent that are not regular. BI and OF in turn lack any indication of vowel nasalization that should have been reinforced by a preceding {n} (we might have expected BI *ni??i). So there are some interesting irregularities here that may have something indirectly to do with the MA initial. We suspect that the {*r} here is one of those inserted to break up clusters of vowels, in this case, a late pronominal prefix vowel and a root-initial {*i} What we are suggesting is that {*w??, *r??} {1sg, 2sg patient} were separate clitics, not prefixes, in PSI (and there is much independent evidence to support this analysis). We suppose the MA {w} could come from {wa} {absolutive} with collapse of V1V1. Bob From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 22:02:53 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:02:53 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312440532.64561.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From rankin at ku.edu Thu Aug 4 22:15:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:15:33 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312440532.64561.YahooMailClassic@web83507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, my original response got erased when my router rebooted. There's no real way to know what the exact word for orphan would have been in Tutelo, but we can come up with something that speakers would have recognized at least by combining 'mother' and 'to be or have none; not to be'. In Oliverio the word for 'be none' or 'not to be' is either /yaha/ or /yah?/. Of the two, I'd select the latter, with the nasal /?/, since it doesn't take much to miss the nasality of the vowel, whereas it would be very strange to see it added for no reason. Given the verb form, I'd make up a word /hena-yah?'/ for 'orphan'. If you said that to a Tutelo, he'd have understood it, even if he might have picked a more colloquial way to say it. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Tutelo doesn't have a form like /n?ke/ or /n?ka/ for 'to be none, to have none'. Both Biloxi and Ofo have it, as do most of the other Siouan languages in one form or another. Maybe a little deeper search in Oliverio will reveal it hiding away in some word like 'blind' or 'deaf'. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'. I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also. If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins From saponi360 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 04:12:43 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:12:43 -0700 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D99FE@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: nikas means "and" in Tutelo-Saponi ? Scott P. Collins ? --- On Thu, 8/4/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011, 5:15 PM Sorry, my original response got erased when my router rebooted. There's no real way to know what the exact word for orphan would have been in Tutelo, but we can come up with something that speakers would have recognized at least by combining 'mother' and 'to be or have none; not to be'.? In Oliverio the word for 'be none' or 'not to be' is either /yaha/ or /yah?/.? Of the two, I'd select the latter, with the nasal /?/, since it doesn't take much to miss the nasality of the vowel, whereas it would be very strange to see it added for no reason. Given the verb form, I'd make up a word /hena-yah?'/ for 'orphan'.? If you said that to a Tutelo, he'd have understood it, even if he might have picked a more colloquial way to say it. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Tutelo doesn't have a form like /n?ke/ or /n?ka/ for 'to be none, to have none'.? Both Biloxi and Ofo have it, as do most of the other Siouan languages in one form or another.? Maybe a little deeper search in Oliverio will reveal it hiding away in some word like 'blind' or 'deaf'. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String hena is mother tokax is grandparent ki-...-ne is the negative mode no is iha:o or yaha ki:to is belong yesa is people So could the word for orphan be, iha:o ki:to, no belong? ...yaha hena, no mother? ...ki-kito-ne, negative aspect of belong? ...iha:o yesa, no people? Scott P. Collins --- On Wed, 8/3/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 5:23 PM 'Orphan' in all the Siouan languages I have dictionaries for is a compound of 'mother' or 'parent' plus the verb 'be none', in otherwords 'no-parents'.? I'd bet that's what it is in Tutelo also.? If you find the term for 'parent' or just 'mother' in Tutelo and follow it with the verb 'be none', you'd have it. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:54 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String The only thing on adoption I find is the name of the adoption string in the Spirit Adoption ceremony which is kanokwiya, is there a word found for orphan in the Tutelo-Saponi language? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at lakhota.org Fri Aug 5 09:25:37 2011 From: jfu at lakhota.org (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:25:37 +0200 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D99DC@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: >> I always wondered whether the Lakota word for 'orphan' >> wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica part, nica >> being a stem meaning 'not to exist'. >> Does anyone have a derivation for it? > I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica > matches 'be none; not to be' in the other languages. > For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. > I don't have cognates for it in any of the other languages. Bob, Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? Jan From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 11:20:47 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:20:47 +0100 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <001101cc5351$a3134ff0$e939efd0$@org> Message-ID: It could of course have nothing to do with the Lakota -nica 'not exist', but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce --- On Fri, 5/8/11, Jan Ullrich wrote: > From: Jan Ullrich > Subject: RE: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Friday, 5 August, 2011, 10:25 > > >> I always wondered whether the Lakota word for > 'orphan' > >> wablenica had a 'without' component in the -nica > part, nica > >> being a stem meaning 'not to > exist'. > >> Does anyone have a derivation for it? > > > I think there is no doubt about it. Dakota nica > > > matches 'be none; not to be' in the other > languages. > > For me the mysterious part is Dakota wable. > > I don't have cognates for it in any of the other > languages. > > Bob, > > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is > not part of wablenica. What do you think? > > Jan > > > From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 5 14:37:00 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 14:37:00 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Adoption String In-Reply-To: <1312517563.31512.YahooMailClassic@web83505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doesn't mean there isn't a homonym hiding somewhere in one of the examples that means 'be none'. > nikas means "and" in Tutelo-Saponi From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 5 15:05:03 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:05:03 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' Message-ID: > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc. I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . . but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs. For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'. In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg ho- a-xpe, 2sg ho-ra-xpe, 3sg ho xpe 1pl oN-ho xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically. I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself. Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob From pustetrm at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:11:27 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:11:27 -0700 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235D9BD5@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to that of wablenica 'orphan'. But the position of ma- '1SG.PAT' is variable in waxpanica. Although Buechel has ma-waxpanica, I have recorded wa-ma-xpanica as well. The etymology of waxpanica is a lot clearer than that of wablenica: waxpaye 'baggage' (according to Buechel), plus nica, this time cogently the 'lack' word for semantic reasons. Given that the position of ma- is not necessarily fixed in compounds of this type, I'd vote for nica 'lack' as a component of wablenica. As for the wable component: no idea. Regina --- On Fri, 8/5/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Dakota 'orphan' To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 9:05 AM > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc.? I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . .? but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs.? For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'.? In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg? ? ? ho- a-xpe, 2sg? ? ? ho-ra-xpe, 3sg? ? ? ho? ? ? xpe 1pl oN-ho? ? ? xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg? a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg? ? ? hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically.? I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself.? Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at lakhota.org Wed Aug 10 19:52:42 2011 From: jfu at lakhota.org (Jan Ullrich) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 21:52:42 +0200 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <1312564287.25667.YahooMailClassic@web110311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'. I agree that re-analyses if often a factor in shifting the affixation spot and that it could be the case in wablenica, just as it obviously is in waxpanicA. But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the ?nica? component of wablenica comes from the verb ?nicA? ?to lack sth?. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. I am not saying it is not possible, but there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > But the position of ma- '1SG.PAT' > is variable in waxpanica. Although Buechel has ma-waxpanica, > I have recorded wa-ma-xpanica as well. Buechel borrowed the 1st singular form from Riggs (see page 502 in the 1992 edition) and as far as I can tell it hasn?t been attested by a native Lakota speaker nor through authentic Lakota texts. It is possible that mawaxpanice is the 1st singular form in the Santee-Sisseton dialect but in Lakota the affix ?ma- is rarely used in front of the indefinite object marker ?wa- (I only know a couple of verbs where it is in this position). So until it is attested I consider the form given in Buechel?s dictionary (i.e. mawaxpanice) to be an error, at least for Lakota. There is plenty of evidence that Buechel borrowed an extensive number of inaccuracies and Dakota (i.e. non-Lakota) forms from Riggs and this is likely one of them. Authentic texts (including texts from the Buechel collection) give the form wamaxpanice. This form is also given in the grammar by Boas & Deloria. Jan --- On Fri, 8/5/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Dakota 'orphan' To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Friday, August 5, 2011, 9:05 AM > Should the "nica" component in wablenica be the word nicA > 'to lack smth/sb' then I would expect the 1st singular form > of wablenica to be wablemanice. In reality the 1st singular > is wamablenica (i.e. 'ma' is not affixed before nica and the > final vowel is not ablauted, as it is in nicA). > This makes me wonder that perhaps nicA 'to lack smth/sb' is not part of wablenica. What do you think? > Jan Given the parallel compounds in so many other Siouan languages, I'm quite convinced that /nica/ is indeed the cognate of /dhiNge, niNge, niki/, etc. I guess, then, that I'd agree with Bruce: > . . . but equally it could have started from -nica and then the word got reanalysed as a unit, which would explain the placing of ma- in wa-mable-nica and could also explain the non ablaut which Jan mentions Bruce Reanalysis is pretty common with these two-part verbs. For example the verb 'to cough', /hoxpe/, which incorporates the noun /ho:/ 'voice'. In some Dhegiha languages it is conjugated conservatively, 1sg ho- a-xpe, 2sg ho-ra-xpe, 3sg ho xpe 1pl oN-ho xp-ape In other Dhegiha languages it is reanalyzed as a gestalt and conjugated innovatively: 1sg a-hoxpe 2sg ra-hoxpe 3sg hoxpe 1pl oN-hoxp-ape I feel sure nica here is the 'lack' verb, at least historically. I'd be a lot happier if I knew exactly what wable was by itself. Jan shows with wa-ma-ble that the root is -ble. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 08:15:47 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:15:47 -0700 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' Message-ID: > The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'. ?I agree that re-analyses if often a factor in shifting the affixation spot and that it could be the case in wablenica, just as it obviously is in waxpanicA. But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the ?nica? component of wablenica comes from the verb ?nicA? ?to lack sth?. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. Regina From: "Jan Ullrich" Add sender to Contacts To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU ?> The structure of waxpanica 'poor' is apparently analogous to > that of wablenica 'orphan'. ? ?there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem though. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator (?) -ni (as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody') looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me on semantic grounds. Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From STrechter at csuchico.edu Thu Aug 11 14:55:03 2011 From: STrechter at csuchico.edu (Trechter, Sara) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:55:03 -0700 Subject: FW: grant application Message-ID: Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > From munro at ucla.edu Thu Aug 11 15:07:23 2011 From: munro at ucla.edu (Pamela Munro) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:07:23 -0700 Subject: FW: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Sara! Trechter, Sara wrote: > Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. > > > Dr. Sara Trechter > Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies > CSU, Chico > Chico, CA 95929-0875 > 530 898 4473 > > Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. > John Maynard Keynes > > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: "Richard R. Mann" > Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM > Subject: grant application > To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > >> Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people >> >> in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires >> >> that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 12 04:30:24 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 04:30:24 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <1313050547.59497.YahooMailClassic@web110308.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. The other two are *? (with ? allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix). Dakotan compounds *? and *ni. Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into ?k?ni. It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb. But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'. "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut. It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old. I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says. I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested. Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the ?nica? component of wablenica comes from the verb ?nicA? ?to lack sth?. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Aug 12 13:35:33 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:35:33 -0500 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DA68B@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob wrote: > *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. I had it in mind that there was no *[n] or *[m] in proto-Siouan, and that the nasal consonants in modern Siouan languages are really just nasalized versions of *[r] and *[w] (or *[R] and *[W]). Am I mis-remembering, or should the negative morpheme here be reconstructed as *riN for Siouan in general? Great discussion, by the way. Thanks to all participants! Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 13:27:25 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:27:25 -0500 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DA68B@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob: I would be interested in your paper, in order to better understand "Ablaut." jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. The other two are *? (with ? allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix). Dakotan compounds *? and *ni. Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into ?k?ni. It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb. But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'. "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut. It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old. I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says. I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested. Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the ?nica? component of wablenica comes from the verb ?nicA? ?to lack sth?. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 12 15:28:33 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:28:33 +0100 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me too Bruce --- On Fri, 12/8/11, Jimm GoodTracks wrote: From: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Re: Dakota 'orphan' To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, 12 August, 2011, 14:27 Bob: I would be interested in your paper, in order to better understand "Ablaut."? jimm ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages.? The other two are *? (with ? allomorphs in Dhegiha) and *ku (often found as a prefix).? Dakotan compounds *? and *ni.? Chiwere and Winnebago combine all three into ?k?ni.? It seems to me that *ni-ke 'not to be/have, be none' is obviously one of these negative morphemes with the ordinary stative formative -ka, applied when ni stands as an independent verb.? But I don't think this bears on the problem of wablenica 'orphan'.? "Ablaut" in Dakotan postdates the split between Dakotan and the other Mississippi Valley languages; the other languages have far more transparent vowel coalescence rules and lack anything you could really call ablaut.? It predates the split up of Dakotan dialects however, so it must be several centuries old.? I tend to stick by my feeling that wablenica has simply been reanalyzed as a unit, as Regina says.? I have a paper on comparative ablaut in Mississippi Valley Siouan if anyone is interested.? Bob > But note that waxpanicA has ablaut, unlike wablenica. This is why I am still a little reserved to the theory that the ?nica? component of wablenica comes from the verb ?nicA? ?to lack sth?. Why would it retain ablaut in one compound and not in another. > Given that the waxpa-component of waxpanica 'poor' is etymologically transparent, while the wable-component of wablenica 'orphan' apparently isn't, we can hypothesize that wablenica is a whole lot older than waxpanica. I don't know when the ablaut rule was created in Lakota, but isn't it possible that that happened *after* wablenica became fossilized as a lexical item, and *before* waxpanica entered the vocabulary? At the point at which the nica 'lack' component was not recognized as a separate lexical item any more by Lakota speakers, there was no motivation for applying the ablaut rule. waxpanica, on the other hand, might be recent enough to contain that version of nica that has ablaut. > there are lots of ka suffixes (ca when palatilized) that are potential candidates for the wablenica etymology. > That would leave us with a component -ni- that needs explanation. I can't come up with really convincing solutions for this new problem. I do not assume that we're dealing with ni 'to live' here. An obsolete negator -ni (could be something else though, cf. Buechel), as in tuwe-ni(-shni) 'nobody', looks like a possibility, but still, the nica 'lack' analysis is more appealing to me for semantic and other reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Aug 12 15:41:23 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:41:23 +0000 Subject: Dakota 'orphan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, Rory, I just got sloppy. I tire easily of trying to wrangle those nasal vowel symbols into my emails, so I moved the nasality to the consonants. *ni should be *riN, no doubt about it. I'll try not to do that. I guess I need to get that SIL keyboard program to make things easier. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Rory M Larson [rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:35 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Dakota 'orphan' Bob wrote: > *ni is one of three 'negative' morphemes commonly found in Siouan languages. I had it in mind that there was no *[n] or *[m] in proto-Siouan, and that the nasal consonants in modern Siouan languages are really just nasalized versions of *[r] and *[w] (or *[R] and *[W]). Am I mis-remembering, or should the negative morpheme here be reconstructed as *riN for Siouan in general? Great discussion, by the way. Thanks to all participants! Rory From Greer-J at mssu.edu Fri Aug 19 22:12:12 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:12:12 +0000 Subject: FW: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:55 AM To: Siouan List Subject: FW: grant application Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From Greer-J at mssu.edu Fri Aug 19 22:54:50 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:54:50 +0000 Subject: grant application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry, all, to have repeated this. They switched our email accounts here, and I was working my way through the old mail in my inbox, and I didn't want to delete this. I hope Iren noticed it? Jill Greer -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 5:12 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: FW: grant application -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:55 AM To: Siouan List Subject: FW: grant application Forwarding this on at Monica's request to see if folks are interested in contacting Mr. Mann. Dr. Sara Trechter Assoc Dean, Graduate Studies CSU, Chico Chico, CA 95929-0875 530 898 4473 Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assaults of thought on the unthinking. John Maynard Keynes -------- Original Message -------- From: "Richard R. Mann" Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:14:13 PM Subject: grant application To: "mmacaula at wisc.edu" > > Hello! My name is Richard Mann, the division manager of Hoocak language department. We are presently applying for a documenting endangered languages grant thru the national science foundation. We are working with the Nebraska Hoocak people > > in a collaborative effort to compile all of our written materials in to one lexicon/dictionary for use in our schools. That is just a brief summary. My question is, do you know of any linguists that would be available to help in this undertaking. NSF requires > > that a linguist be a substantial contributor for this documentation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. My number is 608 387 9772 or office 1 800 492 5745 > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From saponi360 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:31:02 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:31:02 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings?? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 13:40:07 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:40:07 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1313969462.58592.YahooMailClassic@web83502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Aloha Scott, We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: mi-moon qu'ga- marked Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" on its face. So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: win-feminine xti-very, really Or, "very female". Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 Scott Collins Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/21/11 06:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Omaha and Lakota Words I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 22 16:39:31 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:39:31 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words Message-ID: winkte is usually said to mean 'someone wishing to be a woman' win 'woman' -kte 'marker of future or wish or intent'. However I don't know whether that is universally agreed upon as a derivation. Bruce --- On Mon, 22/8/11, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Monday, 22 August, 2011, 0:31 I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 16:40:05 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:40:05 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Scott wrote: > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? The root mi(N) in mi(N)-x^uga is almost certainly the archaic root for 'woman' that exists only in combining form in Omaha. It should be the cognate of wiN in Lakhota wiNkte, which is still an active word for 'woman'. Both words refer to an MtF transgendered person, i.e. a male who is inclined to be female. The Dakotan kte (ktA) is the potential particle cognate to Omaha tte. The combination wiN-kte could probably be translated literally as "would-be woman" or "inclined to be female". In Dhegiha, the root mi(N) meaning 'woman' is confusable with the root mi(N), cognate with Dakotan wi, meaning 'sun' or 'heavenly body'. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 132 ff) understand the initial mi to mean 'moon', and record some Osage stories and lore about the condition which explain it as being the result of dreaming about the moon (woman) during the young men's vision quest. In their dream, they lose a handgame with her, and wind up holding the burdon strap instead of the bow and arrows. Thenceforth, they must live, speak and dress as women. The authors tell us that x^uga means 'to instruct', and interpret mi-x^uga to mean "instructed by the moon". Outside of this reference, we do not seem to have any knowledge of a word x^uga that means 'instruct' or 'instructed'. The term x^uga does mean 'badger'. In either case, the -ga is probably a type of stative suffix, so we would be looking for a root meaning of x^u. There is a root g^u, having a voiced rather than voiceless velar fricative, that means 'mark', which appears in ri-g^u, 'to draw', and ba-g^u, 'to write'. I am not sure how sharp the phonemic distinction is between /x^/ and /g^/, because the former is much more common in initial position and the latter in the interior of words. Badgers, x^u-ga, notably have a white stripe up their nose, so they could be considered characteristically 'marked' if we suppose that the x^u in their name is the same as the g^u in ri-g^u and ba-g^u. If so, then mi(N)-x^uga could be translated as "marked as woman" rather than as "instructed by woman". This is just a suggestion, though, which rides on a questionable supposition. We really don't know yet what the x^u in mi(N)-x^uga means. But the whole term probably means something like "woman-inclined", one who is inclined to be a woman. The mi(N)-x^uga term seems to be general in Dhegiha. I believe I have also run into the same construction in IOM, or possibly Hochunk, so this is probably an older term than Lakhota wiN-kte. I wonder if Jimm or Iren could add anything here? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 17:28:45 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>From the Dorsey slip file: http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/miN/opd.02.128.01a.jpg http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/miN/opd.02.128.01c.jpg miN'quga Rory's reference to "being instructed" reminded me of the male phrase used to address the singers when passing by the drum after receiving a gift from someone "Qu'kka woNgithe", which usually would elicit a round of "aho" from the group. I don't think women would use the term, but older ones will lulu as they pass, gaining the "aho" response from the drum. http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/qp/opd.03.029.06b.jpg qu'ka singers for a dance; one who initiates someone into a secret society http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/qp/opd.03.029.06c.jpg Qu'ka "Singers", a subdivision of an Omaha clan Perhaps this is just tangential to the question at hand. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Rory M Larson Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/22/11 11:43 AM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott wrote: > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? The root mi(N) in mi(N)-x^uga is almost certainly the archaic root for 'woman' that exists only in combining form in Omaha. It should be the cognate of wiN in Lakhota wiNkte, which is still an active word for 'woman'. Both words refer to an MtF transgendered person, i.e. a male who is inclined to be female. The Dakotan kte (ktA) is the potential particle cognate to Omaha tte. The combination wiN-kte could probably be translated literally as "would-be woman" or "inclined to be female". In Dhegiha, the root mi(N) meaning 'woman' is confusable with the root mi(N), cognate with Dakotan wi, meaning 'sun' or 'heavenly body'. Fletcher and La Flesche (p. 132 ff) understand the initial mi to mean 'moon', and record some Osage stories and lore about the condition which explain it as being the result of dreaming about the moon (woman) during the young men's vision quest. In their dream, they lose a handgame with her, and wind up holding the burdon strap instead of the bow and arrows. Thenceforth, they must live, speak and dress as women. The authors tell us that x^uga means 'to instruct', and interpret mi-x^uga to mean "instructed by the moon". Outside of this reference, we do not seem to have any knowledge of a word x^uga that means 'instruct' or 'instructed'. The term x^uga does mean 'badger'. In either case, the -ga is probably a type of stative suffix, so we would be looking for a root meaning of x^u. There is a root g^u, having a voiced rather than voiceless velar fricative, that means 'mark', which appears in ri-g^u, 'to draw', and ba-g^u, 'to write'. I am not sure how sharp the phonemic distinction is between /x^/ and /g^/, because the former is much more common in initial position and the latter in the interior of words. Badgers, x^u-ga, notably have a white stripe up their nose, so they could be considered characteristically 'marked' if we suppose that the x^u in their name is the same as the g^u in ri-g^u and ba-g^u. If so, then mi(N)-x^uga could be translated as "marked as woman" rather than as "instructed by woman". This is just a suggestion, though, which rides on a questionable supposition. We really don't know yet what the x^u in mi(N)-x^uga means. But the whole term probably means something like "woman-inclined", one who is inclined to be a woman. The mi(N)-x^uga term seems to be general in Dhegiha. I believe I have also run into the same construction in IOM, or possibly Hochunk, so this is probably an older term than Lakhota wiN-kte. I wonder if Jimm or Iren could add anything here? Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Rood at Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 22 17:48:24 2011 From: David.Rood at Colorado.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:48:24 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 22 22:05:07 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:05:07 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > From rankin at ku.edu Mon Aug 22 22:13:31 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:13:31 +0000 Subject: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. In-Reply-To: <4E37B6160200008E0003B8EB@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, All of the responses I got both on and off list to my proposal to hold the 2012 Siouan Conference in conjunction with the Co-Lang workshop at the University of Kansas, as described below, were very positive. No one had anything negative to say, so unless I get complaints I'll go ahead and plan to have our next meeting here in Lawrence. More details as soon as they are available. Bob ________________________________________ From: Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at wsc.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 8:32 AM To: David.Kaufman at hooch.colorado.edu; Rankin, Robert L; siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: 2012 Siouan Conference venue. Like everyone else who has replied, I think this sounds like a great idea. It's too bad June is problematic for some European colleagues, but there's never a time that works for everyone. Thanks, Bob -- Catherine >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 07/29/11 5:55 PM >>> Dear friends and colleagues, The Anthropology Department at the University of Kansas is hosting a field linguistics Summer workshop here in Lawrence next June. We have an opportunity to ?piggyback? next year?s Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference (SCLC) on this workshop. We would likely be able to get one media-enhanced room that held up to 40-50 people from e.g. 9-5 on June 15-17, the Friday, Saturday, and half of Sunday preceding the ?Co-Lang workshop?. Inexpensive ?student housing? may also be available. This arrangement would enable the workshop participants to see some of the results of ?real? field investigation and language maintenance/revival efforts. Siouanists would also be able to interact with workshop participants. This seems to me to be a good opportunity, especially since none of our number at this year?s conference volunteered to host the meeting next year. I will need to let Arienne Dwyer at KU know within the next couple of weeks if we wish to pursue this possibility. Please let me know what you think. You can reply to the list or, if you wish, you can write me off-list at rankin at ku dot edu. Bob From rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 22 23:16:37 2011 From: rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu (Rory M Larson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference > in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. Lakhota Omaha ------- ----- sun/moon wi mi`(N) woman wiN mi_(N) I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer a factor. In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality and ruin the distinction. As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pustetrm at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 06:24:39 2011 From: pustetrm at yahoo.com (REGINA PUSTET) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:24:39 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob wrote: 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.? It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.? 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.? Lakota -ktA 'future, etc.' is also frequently used with an intentional meaning, as in iyayiN-kte 's/he wanted to leave (go-intentional'). So the 'woman + want' etymology for wiNkte 'homosexual' sounds fine to me. Regina ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L" To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:05 AM Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.? 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.? Dakotan wi is very irregular.? The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.? Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.? 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.? 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.? It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.? 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.? 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.? Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.? WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.? Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.? kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.? Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. ? ? ? ? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 15:39:01 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:39:01 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My thanks to all of you for helping me to understand these words and how they are put together. ? I'm attempting to reconstruct this word in Tutelo-Saponi. I have the word woman...mahe or miha. I cannot seem to find the word teach, instruct, dream, 'to want', or badger. ? There is a word for causitive mode...-hiye. Another word maybe...kise (perhaps) and kisonik (may be). {irrealis} ? If Proto-Siouan has kte and the Biloxi retains this meaning as 'to make', is it possible that kte has the same meaning in Tutelo-Saponi? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ? --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 5:05 PM I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.? 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.? Dakotan wi is very irregular.? The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.? Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.? 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.? 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.? It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.? 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.? 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.? Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.? WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.? Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.? kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.? Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. ? ? ? ? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Tue Aug 23 15:42:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:42:33 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314113941.92329.YahooMailClassic@web83504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think Tutelo has just ta. Check will or future. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Scott Collins Sender: Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:39:01 To: Reply-To: Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words My thanks to all of you for helping me to understand these words and how they are put together. ? I'm attempting to reconstruct this word in Tutelo-Saponi. I have the word woman...mahe or miha. I cannot seem to find the word teach, instruct, dream, 'to want', or badger. ? There is a word for causitive mode...-hiye. Another word maybe...kise (perhaps) and kisonik (may be). {irrealis} ? If Proto-Siouan has kte and the Biloxi retains this meaning as 'to make', is it possible that kte has the same meaning in Tutelo-Saponi? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ? --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 5:05 PM I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates.? 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'.? Dakotan wi is very irregular.? The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic.? Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge.? 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different.? 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'.? It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages.? 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here.? 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology.? Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas.? WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example.? Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota.? kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning.? Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. ? ? ? ? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of > that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha > and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal > meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at mssu.edu Tue Aug 23 17:02:56 2011 From: Greer-J at mssu.edu (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:02:56 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6235DBC88@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science MSSU Joplin, MO 65801 Greer-j at mssu.edu -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha Scott, > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > mi-moon > qu'ga- marked > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" > on its face. > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities > of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: > > win-feminine > xti-very, really > > Or, "very female". > > Mark > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American > Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of > Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > Scott Collins > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > Please respond to > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > To > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > cc > > Subject > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in > Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and > literal meanings? > > Scott P. Collins > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 23 18:26:05 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:26:05 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Strangely enough in Arabic qamar 'moon' is masculine and shams 'sun' feminine. Also the nouns meaning 'pregnant' Haamil, 'menstruating' HayiDH, 'breast feeding' murDHi' and 'old lady' 'ajuuz lack the expected feminine suffix -ah. This could be because logically men cannot be these things or possibly it is some sort of taboo. Bruce --- On Tue, 23/8/11, Greer, Jill wrote: > From: Greer, Jill > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" > Date: Tuesday, 23 August, 2011, 18:02 > I can't contribute much either, > except the obvious biological association between the length > of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's > menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to > Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a > euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to > the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? > (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California > might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face > during sleep, along with associations of women's > reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and > a connection to the moon. > > Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My > grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her > husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, > referencing Grandmother Moon. > > Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her > autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th > century. More info is probably out > there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural > delicacy and broach the subject? > > Jill > > Jill D. Greer > Department of Social Science > MSSU > Joplin, MO 65801 > Greer-j at mssu.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > > I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a > couple of things that can be said. > > 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for > 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. > > 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for > 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and > 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word > has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which > nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is > similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. > > 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so > that is quite different. > > 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its > source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It > retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other > languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense > or potential mode marker in many languages including > English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing > strange here. > > 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, > the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be > folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the > cultures may be better at explaining these things than a > hard core linguist. > > Bob > > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] > on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > > Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology > of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is > indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final > element in almost all women's names, for example. > Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci > or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, > usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning > could be something like 'will be a woman' > or 'might be a woman'. > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi > are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota > 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > > > Aloha Scott, > > We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: > > > > mi-moon > > qu'ga- marked > > > > Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished > by the clear "mark" > > on its face. > > > > So, "marked by the moon", referring to the > feminine/female qualities > > of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. > > > > > > I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha > perspectiv as: > > > > win-feminine > > xti-very, really > > > > Or, "very female". > > > > Mark > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic > Studies Native American > > Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska > Department of > > Anthropology > > 841 Oldfather Hall > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > Phone 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > > > > > > > Scott Collins > > Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > 08/21/11 06:34 PM > > Please respond to > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > > > > > To > > siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > > cc > > > > Subject > > Omaha and Lakota Words > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the > word mexoga in > > Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root > words and > > literal meanings? > > > > Scott P. Collins > > > > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information > that is subject to protection under state and federal law. > This information is intended for the use of the individual > named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the > contents of this information is prohibited and may be > punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by > electronic mail (reply). > > From mary.marino at usask.ca Wed Aug 24 06:42:35 2011 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary C Marino) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:42:35 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The expression prevalent among Dakota speakers in Canada for the menses is is(nathi 'she camps/dwells alone'. (is(na 'alone', thi 'dwell/camp 3sg'). Dakota-speaking women would sometimes use the Dakota expression to me while conversing in English. If they knew I was having my period, and I happened to mention the moon, they might joke about that, but I never heard or elicited any local Dakota term for menstruation which included *wi* 'moon'. I hope I have put no one to the blush. Mary On 23/08/2011 11:02 AM, Greer, Jill wrote: > I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. > > Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. > > Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? > > Jill > > Jill D. Greer > Department of Social Science > MSSU > Joplin, MO 65801 > Greer-j at mssu.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words > > I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. > > 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. > > 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. > > 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. > > 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. > > 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. > > Bob > > > ________________________________________ > From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > > Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' > or 'might be a woman'. > I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > >> Aloha Scott, >> We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: >> >> mi-moon >> qu'ga- marked >> >> Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" >> on its face. >> >> So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities >> of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. >> >> >> I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: >> >> win-feminine >> xti-very, really >> >> Or, "very female". >> >> Mark >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Anthropology& Ethnic Studies Native American >> Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of >> Anthropology >> 841 Oldfather Hall >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> Phone 402-472-3455 >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> >> >> Scott Collins >> Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> 08/21/11 06:34 PM >> Please respond to >> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> >> >> To >> siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> cc >> >> Subject >> Omaha and Lakota Words >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in >> Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and >> literal meanings? >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 24 17:09:53 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:09:53 +0100 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <4E549D5B.8030907@usask.ca> Message-ID: Same in Lakota.? Also t?a?kal ya?kapi ?to sit outside (the tipi)?? No blushing.? As they say in Arabic laa Hayaa fil'ilm 'there is no shame in science'.? At least I think it's Arabic. Bruce --- On Wed, 24/8/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Wednesday, 24 August, 2011, 7:42 The expression prevalent among Dakota speakers in Canada for the menses is i?nathi? 'she camps/dwells alone'. (i?na 'alone', thi 'dwell/camp 3sg').?? Dakota-speaking women would sometimes use the Dakota expression to me while conversing in English.? If they knew I was having my period, and I happened to mention the moon, they might joke about that, but I never heard or elicited any local Dakota term for menstruation which included wi 'moon'. I hope I have put no one to the blush. Mary ? ? On 23/08/2011 11:02 AM, Greer, Jill wrote: I can't contribute much either, except the obvious biological association between the length of the lunar cycle and the length of the human female's menstrual cycle (28 days for each), not unique to Siouan culture, of course. Isn't there also a euphemism to refer to the menstrual period that refers to the moon, or am I thinking of another tribe here? (Readers familiar with Ishi of northern California might recall the taboo on moonlight touching a man's face during sleep, along with associations of women's reproductive powers as spiritually dangerous to others, and a connection to the moon. Basso similarly notes Western Apache speakers as saying "My grandmother is visiting" if a woman had to inform her husband why she could not sleep with him at that time, referencing Grandmother Moon. Mary CrowDog talks about "moon/woman" power in her autobiographical book for Lakhota culture in the 20th century. More info is probably out there. Anyone care to break with our own cultural delicacy and broach the subject? Jill Jill D. Greer Department of Social Science MSSU Joplin, MO 65801 Greer-j at mssu.edu -----Original Message----- From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [mailto:owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:05 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: RE: Omaha and Lakota Words I can't contribute much to this discussion, but there are a couple of things that can be said. 1. wiN is the first syllable of the common Siouan term for 'woman'. wiN and min ~ mi are cognates. 2. wiN (miN ~ mi) is also the reconstructible term for 'orb' and is the basis for the terms for both 'sun' and 'moon'. Dakotan wi is very irregular. The word has nasalization in every other Siouan language for which nasality is phonemic. Dakotan 'star', wichaxpe is similarly irregular; cf. Kansa mikkak?e. 3. The Kansa term is miixoge. 'Badger' is xoNga, so that is quite different. 4. The Common Siouan 'potential, irrealis', kte, has its source in the Proto-Siouan word for 'to want'. It retains that meaning in Biloxi, Crow and some other languages. 'Want' is grammaticalized as a future tense or potential mode marker in many languages including English, Greek and many Balkan languages, so there's nothing strange here. 5. I have no idea whether these terms refer to femininity, the moon, etc. or whether the entire explanation might be folk etymology. Someone more familiar with the cultures may be better at explaining these things than a hard core linguist. Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [David.Rood at Colorado.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:48 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Scott, I have never thought about trying to do an etymology of winkte, but Mark has given me some ideas. WiN is indeed a very common morpheme for 'woman', used as the final element in almost all women's names, for example. Mark's guess at xti is wrong, however -- that would be xci or xce in Lakota. kte is the irrealis mode marker, usually glossed future tense in English, so the meaning could be something like 'will be a woman' or 'might be a woman'. I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: Aloha Scott, We have generally glossed miqu'ga as: mi-moon qu'ga- marked Qu'ga is also the Omaha name for badger, distinguished by the clear "mark" on its face. So, "marked by the moon", referring to the feminine/female qualities of that celestial being in Omaha cosmology. I would hazard a stab at winxti from an Omaha perspectiv as: win-feminine xti-very, really Or, "very female". Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 Scott Collins Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 08/21/11 06:34 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU cc Subject Omaha and Lakota Words I was wondering if anyone may have a breakdown of the word mexoga in Omaha and the word winkte in Lakota; i.e such as root words and literal meanings? Scott P. Collins This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 07:16:09 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 00:16:09 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. ? On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories about Morning?Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw also??? ? Scott P. Collins --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: From: Rory M Larson Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM David wrote: > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite the difference > in meaning. ?Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the meaning of 'woman'. ?We are dealing with two separate roots here, but in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Lakhota ? ? ? ? ? Omaha ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ------- ? ? ? ? ? ----- ? sun/moon ? ? ?wi ? ? ? ? ? ? ? mi`(N) ? woman ? ? ? ? wiN ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mi_(N) I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. ?The 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. ?In terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. ?(There is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less common, and which is neither of these.) ?However, this interpretation clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. ?Perhaps Omaha has reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer a factor. In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. ?In Dhegiha, this /w/ has become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality and ruin the distinction. As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. ?It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. ?The mi_(N) term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. ?But the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. ?In the case of mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at indiana.edu Thu Aug 25 12:42:05 2011 From: lcumberl at indiana.edu (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:42:05 -0400 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314256569.97264.YahooMailClassic@web83506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda Quoting Scott Collins : > In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton > from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these > halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of > the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the > Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. > Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. > ? > On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories > about Morning?Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk > stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may > have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw > also??? > ? > > > Scott P. Collins > > > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > From: Rory M Larson > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM > > > David wrote: >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >> the difference >> in meaning. ?Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > > David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the > meaning of 'woman'. ?We are dealing with two separate roots here, but > in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Lakhota ? ? ? ? ? Omaha > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ------- ? ? ? ? ? ----- > > ? sun/moon ? ? ?wi ? ? ? ? ? ? ? mi`(N) > > ? woman ? ? ? ? wiN ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mi_(N) > > I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there > is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. ?The > 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, > while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. ?In > terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking > at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, > falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. ?(There > is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less > common, and which is neither of these.) ?However, this interpretation > clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary > and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which > have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. ?Perhaps Omaha has > reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer > a factor. > > In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or > not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. ?In Dhegiha, this /w/ has > become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality > and ruin the distinction. > > As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped > out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. > ?It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. ?The mi_(N) > term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes > contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. ?But > the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native > speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. ?In the case of > mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as > mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception > as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. > > Rory > From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 15:08:47 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:08:47 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <20110825084205.vke919964ossw0k4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Any tribes that have correlations on these topics would be interesting. ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: From: Cumberland, Linda A Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 7:42 AM Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda Quoting Scott Collins : > In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton > from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these > halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of > the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the > Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. > Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. > ? > On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories > about Morning?Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk > stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may > have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw > also??? > ? > > > Scott P. Collins > > > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: > > > From: Rory M Larson > Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words > To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM > > > David wrote: >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >> the difference >> in meaning. ?Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. > > > David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the > meaning of 'woman'. ?We are dealing with two separate roots here, but > in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Lakhota ? ? ? ? ? Omaha > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ------- ? ? ? ? ? ----- > > ? sun/moon ? ? ?wi ? ? ? ? ? ? ? mi`(N) > > ? woman ? ? ? ? wiN ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mi_(N) > > I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there > is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. ?The > 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, > while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. ?In > terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking > at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, > falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. ?(There > is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less > common, and which is neither of these.) ?However, this interpretation > clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary > and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which > have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. ?Perhaps Omaha has > reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer > a factor. > > In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or > not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. ?In Dhegiha, this /w/ has > become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality > and ruin the distinction. > > As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped > out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. > ?It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. ?The mi_(N) > term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes > contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. ?But > the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native > speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. ?In the case of > mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as > mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception > as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. > > Rory > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at usask.ca Thu Aug 25 16:25:15 2011 From: mary.marino at usask.ca (Mary C Marino) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:25:15 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <20110825084205.vke919964ossw0k4@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>> I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >> Lakhota Omaha >> ------- ----- >> >> sun/moon wi mi`(N) >> >> woman wiN mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >> It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > From saponi360 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 05:48:43 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 22:48:43 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <4E56776B.4080500@usask.ca> Message-ID: Me too... Scott P. Collins ? --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 11:25 AM I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning.? Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'.? We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Lakhota? ? ? ? ???Omaha >>? ? ? ? ? ? ???-------? ? ? ? ???----- >> >>???sun/moon? ? ? wi? ? ? ? ? ? ???mi`(N) >> >>???woman? ? ? ???wiN? ? ? ? ? ? ? mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha.? The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch.? In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long.? (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.)? However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long.? Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant.? In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >>? It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha.? The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo.? But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'.? In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 12:02:47 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:02:47 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: <1314337723.67467.YahooMailClassic@web83506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Include me on the story list! From: Scott Collins Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:48 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Me too... Scott P. Collins --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Mary C Marino wrote: From: Mary C Marino Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 11:25 AM I'd like to hear it. Mary On 25/08/2011 6:42 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > Not for Dhegiha, but I have a nifty and rather lengthy one for > Assiniboine, if you're interested. -Linda > > Quoting Scott Collins : > >> In relation to Umon'hon'ti, the Sacred Pole of the Omaha, Riddinton >> from 1993 states, "...Umon'hon'ti is a single person in whom these >> halves have joined." This statement is talking about the nature of >> the Sacred Pole, i.e ceremonial object, an the coming together of the >> Above World and the Middle World into one being/ceremonial object. >> Are there any other examples of this dual nature in Omaha words. >> >> On another subject, I also wanted to ask if there are Omaha stories >> about Morning Star that are similar in any fashion to the Hochunk >> stories of Morning Star and Evening Star. Anyone on the list that may >> have information regarding this in Osage, Quawpa, Ponca and Kansa-Kaw >> also? >> >> >> >> Scott P. Collins >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Rory M Larson wrote: >> >> >> From: Rory M Larson >> Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words >> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:16 PM >> >> >> David wrote: >>> I wonder if wiN and Omaha mi are cognate, despite >>> the difference >>> in meaning. Lakota 'moon' is wi, without nasalization. >> >> >> David, I'm pretty sure they are cognate in this case, both with the >> meaning of 'woman'. We are dealing with two separate roots here, but >> in Omaha they are similar enough to be confused. >> >> Lakhota Omaha >> ------- ----- >> >> sun/moon wi mi`(N) >> >> woman wiN mi_(N) >> >> I've recently established, tentatively, with one speaker, that there >> is a pronunciation difference between the two terms in Omaha. The >> 'sun/moon' term apparently has an emphatic, falling pitch or tone, >> while the 'woman' term is more drawn out and level in pitch. In >> terms of the long/short vowel dichotomy researchers have been looking >> at in other languages, I have been supposing that the emphatic, >> falling pitch is short, while the more level pitch is long. (There >> is a third, rising and falling tone in Omaha which is much less >> common, and which is neither of these.) However, this interpretation >> clashes with what is recorded in Carolyn Quintero's Osage Dictionary >> and in Helmbrecht/Lehmann's Hocak Teaching Materials, both of which >> have the vowel for the 'sun/moon' term as long. Perhaps Omaha has >> reinterpreted the original system so that length itself is no longer >> a factor. >> >> In Lakhota, wi and wiN can easily be distinguished by nasalization or >> not, because /w/ is an oral consonant. In Dhegiha, this /w/ has >> become /m/, which can flavor the following vowel with its nasality >> and ruin the distinction. >> >> As an added complication, the old mi_(N) term for 'woman' has dropped >> out of the vocabulary in Omaha, and I believe in Dhegiha generally. >> It has been replaced by *wak?o, which is wa?u` in Omaha. The mi_(N) >> term remains in about a half-dozen compounds, where it sometimes >> contrasts with nu`, 'man', which is cognate with Lakhota blo. But >> the fact that it doesn't exist as a separate word means that native >> speakers may not recognize that mi_(N) means 'woman'. In the case of >> mi_(N)-x^u_ga, some of them apparently rationalized the mi_(N) as >> mi`(N), understood as 'moon', and developed the moon dream conception >> as an explanation for the existence of the mi_(N)-x^u_ga. >> >> Rory >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 21:26:09 2011 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:26:09 -0700 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another couple of concepts Dorsey describes as related to sexuality in Omaha and Ponca are "spotted turtle" and "striped turtle". I have no idea of the cultural background behind these but thought they might interest y'all. Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 01:05:49 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:05:49 -0500 Subject: Omaha and Lakota Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So then, what did Dorsey have to say about these terms?? Don't keep us in suspence! From: Bryan James Gordon Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 4:26 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Omaha and Lakota Words Another couple of concepts Dorsey describes as related to sexuality in Omaha and Ponca are "spotted turtle" and "striped turtle". I have no idea of the cultural background behind these but thought they might interest y'all. Bryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Mon Aug 29 18:28:24 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:28:24 -0500 Subject: list relocation notification Message-ID: Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello! This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 04:06:47 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:06:47 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for the update. Seems to be working well. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- On Mon, 8/29/11, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Subject: list relocation notification To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, August 29, 2011, 1:28 PM Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello! ?This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. ?Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. ?Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU Mon Aug 29 17:47:42 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:47:42 -0500 Subject: testing Message-ID: THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Tue Aug 30 16:46:51 2011 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:46:51 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It works for me. Randy Graczyk -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: SIOUAN Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 11:48 am Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Tue Aug 30 16:53:36 2011 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:53:36 -0400 Subject: List verification Message-ID: Thanks for taking care of this, Mark. Randy From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 17:33:52 2011 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:33:52 -0500 Subject: List verification In-Reply-To: <8CE354C7EB5CD10-110C-70D1@webmail-m082.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Indeed, Mark, Thanks, Wibra ho, Warigroxi ke, Muchas Gracias, Merc? For taking care of this for us all. I will forward to Saul, so that he too can send you back an EMail to be on this new list. -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:53 AM To: Subject: List verification > Thanks for taking care of this, Mark. > > Randy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Tue Aug 30 17:41:01 2011 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:41:01 -0700 Subject: List membership Message-ID: I appreciate the chance to continue on this list. Regards, Erik Hanson. From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 30 17:42:28 2011 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:42:28 +0000 Subject: Ablaut et al In-Reply-To: <1314707014.36016.YahooMailClassic@web29520.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bruce, This is indeed an interesting topic. There is a close correlation between Shaw's (and Carter's, etc.) Dakotan "consonant-final stems" and stems where the other Siouan languages have long vowels. The rule seems to have been: If the 1st syllable is long, it is accented; if it is short, accent the 2nd syllable. Or, it could be phrased in terms of morae. This begs the question whether or not Dakota had final vowels in the initial accent words. I'm off this afternoon on a short trip up to Omaha and Council Bluffs and will return to this issue when I get back. Best, Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:23 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Ablaut et al --- On Mon, 29/8/11, rankin at KU.EDU wrote: Bob, This is in reply to your earlier message , where you sent your article on Mississipi Valley Siouan "Ablaut". Thanks very much for that. I found it very interesting and noticed that you mentioned Shaw's work on Dakota phonology, which I read many years ago, there being a copy of it in the SOAS library. One thing which interested me in Shaw was her explanation of the exceptional initial stress in certain disyllabic stems, k??a 'to make' being one I think. She posits an earlier monosyllabic, final consonantal form for these stems such as ka?- . I have never seen this discussed much and wondered what other Siouanists thought about it. It seems like a very neat analysis and parallels the argument of Greenberg about Semitic lexical stems which are now disyllabic in the majority such as katab 'to write'. He suggests that Semitic stems were originally monosyllabic (in fact bisonsonantal) and that the second syllable (or the third consonant depending on how you look at it) is a later addition allowing for lexical expansion, an initial qat- 'cut' giving later qata', qataf, qatam, qasar and others all realtable to the idea of 'cutting'. The other advantage is that it makes Semitic stems look more like Indo-European ones, which is attractive. Without wishing to appear to be talking Nostratic, I do like the idea of original monosyllabic stems, but of course it does get into difficult ground as to how far back you think you can go. I wonder whether it holds up in other Siouan languages. Bruce From ckopris at YAHOO.COM Tue Aug 30 19:04:45 2011 From: ckopris at YAHOO.COM (Craig Kopris) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:04:45 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Works for me === Craig Kopris >________________________________ >From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland >To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU >Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu >Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:28 PM >Subject: list relocation notification > > >Aloha all SiouanList users, > >At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. > >The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. > >The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. > >It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > >I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. > >For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > >I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. >Hello! ?This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. ?Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. ?Thanks! >Can this person contact the new UNL list? > >If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > >I understand that the list archives still function as before. > >Give me your feedback, please. > >Mark >Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >Native American Studies Program Liaison >University of Nebraska >Department of Anthropology >841 Oldfather Hall >Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > >http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >http://omahaponca.unl.edu >Phone 402-472-3455 >FAX: 402-472-9642 >----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- > >Mark J Awakuni-Swetland >Sent by: Siouan Linguistics >08/29/11 12:47 PM >Please respond to >Siouan Linguistics > To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >cc >Subject testing > > > > >THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > > >Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >Native American Studies Program Liaison >University of Nebraska >Department of Anthropology >841 Oldfather Hall >Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > >http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >http://omahaponca.unl.edu >Phone 402-472-3455 >FAX: 402-472-9642 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Tue Aug 30 19:10:12 2011 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:12 -0700 Subject: list relocation notification Message-ID: Fine for me. Marianne Mithun __________________________________________________ From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Cc: siouan at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: list relocation notification Aloha all SiouanList users, At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took place. The consensus thinking is that the current hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another institution. The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is now the home of the SiouanList. It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I am reportedly the list owner. Since I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should be interesting. For now, in order to verify list members, please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu I received the following message that illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name attached. Hello! This account is no longer being used and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! Can this person contact the new UNL list? If you know of anyone else wanting access to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu I understand that the list archives still function as before. Give me your feedback, please. Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent by: Siouan Linguistics 08/29/11 12:47 PM Please respond to Siouan Linguistics To SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu cc Subject testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- From pfreeouf at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 31 06:27:06 2011 From: pfreeouf at YAHOO.COM (P. Freeouf) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:27:06 -0700 Subject: list relocation Message-ID: siouan at listserve.unl.edu Thanks. All the best at the new location. Pete Freeouf From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Wed Aug 31 11:17:14 2011 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:17:14 +0100 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <1314704440.48547.YahooMailClassic@web29519.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Me too - is this a British thing? Anthony >>> shokooh Ingham 30/08/2011 12:40 >>> I am getting it via the others it seems. Bruce --- On Mon, 29/8/11, Greer, Jill wrote: From: Greer, Jill Subject: Re: testing To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 19:19 ?Roger, loud and clear in Joplin, MO? Jill P.S. Thanks, Mark! From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:48 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). Based on an award-winning 160-acre Campus near Liverpool, Edge Hill University has over 125 years of history as an innovative, successful and distinctive higher education provider. ? Shortlisted for Times Higher Education University of the Year 2007 and 2010 ? Top in the North West for overall student satisfaction (Sunday Times University Guide 2011) ? Top Four in England for Graduate Employment (Higher Education Statistics Agency, 2010, all graduates, full & part time, first & foundation degrees) ? Top 20 position, and the highest ranked university in 'The Sunday Times Best Places to Work in the Public Sector 2010' ? Grade 1 'outstanding' judgements made in all 33 inspection cells, Ofsted Initial Teacher Education inspection report 12/5/2011 ----------------------------------------------------- This message is private and confidential. 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Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. ----------------------------------------------------- From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 31 12:14:02 2011 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:14:02 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And for me. -Linda Cumberland Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : > And for me, too. > > Ray DeMallie > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Mary C Marino > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: testing > > It works for me. > > Mary Marino > > On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > From vanvalin at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Aug 31 12:29:27 2011 From: vanvalin at BUFFALO.EDU (Robert Van Valin Jr) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:29:27 -0400 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <20110831081402.qrz889znkwosckc0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Works for me. Robert Van Valin On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > And for me. -Linda Cumberland > > Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : > >> And for me, too. >> >> Ray DeMallie >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Mary C Marino >> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: testing >> >> It works for me. >> >> Mary Marino >> >> On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: >> THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >> Native American Studies Program Liaison >> University of Nebraska >> Department of Anthropology >> 841 Oldfather Hall >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> Phone 402-472-3455 >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> > > From munro at UCLA.EDU Wed Aug 31 14:31:37 2011 From: munro at UCLA.EDU (Pamela Munro) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:31:37 -0700 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <879EA3C5-D755-4EF7-B6A5-47E7F978E09C@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: And me. Robert Van Valin Jr wrote: > Works for me. > > Robert Van Valin > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > >> And for me. -Linda Cumberland >> >> Quoting "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." : >> >> >>> And for me, too. >>> >>> Ray DeMallie >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>> Of Mary C Marino >>> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:42 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Re: testing >>> >>> It works for me. >>> >>> Mary Marino >>> >>> On 29/08/2011 11:47 AM, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: >>> THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST >>> >>> >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >>> Native American Studies Program Liaison >>> University of Nebraska >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 841 Oldfather Hall >>> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >>> >>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >>> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >>> Phone 402-472-3455 >>> FAX: 402-472-9642 >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Pamela Munro, Professor, Linguistics, UCLA UCLA Box 951543 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1543 http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/munro/munro.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Aug 31 15:18:33 2011 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:18:33 -0500 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Got it. Louanna N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland [mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: testing THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 From jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 23:05:36 2011 From: jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM (jhobartkyle at GMAIL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:05:36 +0000 Subject: list relocation notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: works here On , Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: > Aloha all SiouanList users, > At the recent Siouan and Caddoan Languages > Conference in White Cloud, KS, a discussion about the SiouanList took > place. > The consensus thinking is that the current > hosting at Colorado.edu could be re-invigorated by moving to another > institution. > The University of Nebraska-Lincoln is > now the home of the SiouanList. > It can be accessed at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > I am reportedly the list owner. Since > I barely know how to find the light switch in my office... this should > be interesting. > For now, in order to verify list members, > please respond to the new list at siouan at listserve.unl.edu > I received the following message that > illustrates the problem of addresses without a real person's name > attached. > Hello! This account is no longer being used > and will not be checked for messages. Please use my new email address > - wiyakawi at hughes.net from now on. Thanks! > Can this person contact the new UNL > list? > If you know of anyone else wanting access > to the list please forward them to me at mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > I understand that the list archives > still function as before. > Give me your feedback, please. > Mark > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 > ----- Forwarded by Mark > J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 08/29/11 12:48 PM ----- > Mark J Awakuni-Swetland > mawakuni-swetland2 at UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU> > Sent by: Siouan Linguistics SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu> > 08/29/11 12:47 PM > Please respond to > Siouan Linguistics SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu> > To > SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > cc > Subject > testing > THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE ON THE UPCOMING > UNL-BASED SIOUANLIST > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > University of Nebraska > Department of Anthropology > 841 Oldfather Hall > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > Phone 402-472-3455 > FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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