From bmaxwell at mt.net Wed Jan 5 16:12:28 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:12:28 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You can layer your fonts, but it is more the program you are running than Mac. VISIT mcppp.org On Jan 5, 2011, at 8:34 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > From meya at lakhota.org Wed Jan 5 16:26:15 2011 From: meya at lakhota.org (Wilhelm K. Meya) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 11:26:15 -0500 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello all, There are the Mac Fonts and a Keyboard program for the Standard Lakota Orthography. I tried attaching a Font Installer with 6 Unicode Mac fonts and a Keyboard Installer for Mac OS 10 as well as installation instructions, but the attachments would not go through to the list-serve. In any case, a CD containing both the Mac and PC fonts and Keyboards as well as Keyboard stickers is available here: http://stores.languagepress.com/Categories.bok?category=Software These fonts work with almost all Mac applications, email, web, as well as across platforms. Best, Wil > Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director > > Lakota Language Consortium > 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 > Bloomington, IN 47404 > > Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 > Tel.- 812.961.0140 > Cell.- 812.340.3517 > Fax.- 812.961.0141 > meya at lakhota.org > > http://www.lakhota.org > > > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need > to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an > acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted > comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and > h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on > separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have > become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got > unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mac-Installation.pdf.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 349240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linguista at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 16:37:04 2011 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:37:04 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: 1. Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. 2. Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. 1. Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) 2. Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font. 3. The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ƞ is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ƞ" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' š ž č ǧ ȟ, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. Hope that helps! - Bryan 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I > need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility > of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an > inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, > c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the > hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more > advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I > have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Wed Jan 5 16:51:16 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:51:16 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have not played with fonts in Word since I got this new MacBook Pro. I see your problem. I will not get rid of my older unit just to play with fonts. Billy Maxwell VISIT mcppp.org bmaxwell at mt.net 187 Woodland Est. Road Great Falls, MT 59404 On Jan 5, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! > > I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: > Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. > Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. > This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. > Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) > Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font. > The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. > In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ƞ is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ƞ" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' š ž č ǧ ȟ, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. > > Hope that helps! > > - Bryan > > 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 5 15:34:10 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:34:10 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users Message-ID: Dear all, Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. Hope someone can help. Yours Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Jan 5 18:35:56 2011 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:35:56 +0100 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bruce, maybe this could be a starting point for you: a couple of years ago I had the same problem. I'll attach my then email to enlighten the issue: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?"Alfred_W._T=FCting"?= Subject: Re: SILKey - Ukelele Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:43:52 +0200 Size: 12389 URL: -------------- next part -------------- This is the keyboard I once rendered for my own use (based on the German layout) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakota.keylayout Kopie Type: application/octet-stream Size: 79976 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Here's one example that I once had generated using "my" Laḱóta keyboard (I know Jan Ullrich doesn't appreciate this "convenience" at all, contacting me several time for this reason ;-) ): http://www.fa-kuan.de/LAKCONV.HTML In short: I had used the simple software "Ukelele" to alter the underlying (German) keyboard. Maybe this helps. Best regards Alfred Am 05.01.2011 um 16:34 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using > them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to > have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n > for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- > and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how > pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately > that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have > become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of > course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > _______________ Alfred W. Tüting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 5 19:20:26 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:20:26 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bryan, I'll have a look at it tomorrow.  Glad you liked the 'information structure' Yours Bruce --- On Wed, 5/1/11, Bryan James Gordon wrote: From: Bryan James Gordon Subject: Re: plea for help from Mac users To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Wednesday, 5 January, 2011, 16:37 Dear Bruce, I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font.The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ƞ is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ƞ" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' š ž č ǧ ȟ, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. Hope that helps! - Bryan 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham Dear all, Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. Hope someone can help. Yours Bruce -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 6 10:04:44 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:04:44 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users Message-ID: Dear everybody, Thank you for all the useful suggestions. I'm spoilt for choice now. I will be looking in to it over the next few days. Happy new year. Bruce From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Jan 22 18:02:19 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:02:19 -0600 Subject: Fw: 2011 SACC lodging update Message-ID: Aloha all, When I received lodging confirmation from the Squaw Creek Casino Hotel it indicated their "regular" rate. A phone call and email got the situation sorted out and the "conference rate" applied. Y'all might want to double-check the rates when making reservations. Looking forward to seeing you all in White Cloud in June. WibthahoN Mark Awakuni-Swetland. ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 01/22/11 11:58 AM ----- "Jimm GoodTracks" 01/21/11 08:41 AM To "Mark J Awakuni-Swetland" cc Subject Re: 2011 SACC update Mark: You may want to share this letter with the list. Everyone should note that the tribal motel and the tribal cabins by the casino are under two separate managers. Reservations for the cabins are made via the White Cloud Casino. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: Brenda Graves Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 7:53 AM Subject: RE: 2011 SACC update Aho Brenda, Many thanks for sorting out the lodging rates. I look forward to come south in June with my University of Nebraska-Lincoln Omaha language team. WibthahoN, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Brenda Graves" 01/20/11 02:42 PM I have checked with Gary our manager and he confirmed he was aware of this. Attached is your new confirmation stating the change in price. We look forward to your visit. If you have any questions, just give us a call. Thank you, Brenda. -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland [mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:14 PM To: bgraves at squawcreek.net Cc: jgoodtracks at gmail.com Subject: Fw: 2011 SACC update Aloha Brenda, Here is the conference lodging rates announced for the June meeting I mentioned on the phone just now. Let me know if you have additional questions. Thanks for helping us out. Best, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 01/20/11 02:12 PM ----- "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 12/20/10 08:31 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Fw: 2011 SACC update ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:49 PM Subject: 2011 SACC update > Aho, > > We have an exciting update regarding the 2011 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, to be held Wednesday, June 15, through Saturday, June 18, 2011 at the tribal complex of the Iowa Tribe of KS and NE, which is located 6 miles NW of White Cloud, KS, at 3345 Thrasher Road, White Cloud, KS 66094 (http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/iowatribe.html). > > The Iowa Tribe of KS and NE has anounced a special conference rate of $30 per night on rooms at the casino cabins ( http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/dining.html) and also at the Squaw Creek Eagles Nest Motel (http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/eaglesnest.html). > > There are ONLY FOUR casino cabins (normally $60 per night), which have a double bed and are less than one mile from the conference location, gas station & convenience store, and tribal casino, which serves breakfast, lunch, and dinner to order in addition to lunch and dinner buffets. For reservations, call 785-595-3430. Mention the Conference rate in effect. Note however, the cabins will be rented on a first come, first serve basis. In other words, the cabins will not be held on reserve. Therefore, for those who are interested and have the cabins as a preference, early reservations are advised. > > The Iowa Tribe's Eagles Nest Motel has 23 rooms (normally $50 plus $7 per additional person per night), which have two double beds and are 20 miles from the conference location. The tribe has a six passenger shuttle van that provides free transportation between the motel and the casino/ conference site. The motel is connected to a gas station & convenience store and restaurant. It is also located three miles from the scenic Squaw Creek National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/squawcreek/). For reservations, call 660-442-3267 or 1-866-994-1320. > > Again, the special conference rate for both options is $30 per room per night with no extra charge for additional persons in a room. > > Conference registration will take place at the conference. A $20 conference fee will help cover associated costs (refreshments, building setup and cleanup, etc.). As is customary, theoretical and comparative linguistics presentations will be scheduled first, and the applied and community linguistics presentations will follow. While May 1, 2011, is the final date to submit an abstract, it would be appreciated if those who are planning a presentation could let us know sooner rather than later for scheduling purposes. Presentations are usually 20 minutes followed by 10 minutes for questions and comments, but presenters with different needs can be accommodated if they let us know beforehand. Presenters should plan to bring a sufficient supply of their various handouts. > > All are invited for supper on Friday evening at the Goodtracks home near town at 1510 Wisconsin Street, White Cloud, KS. Vegetarian options will be provided. Those with other special diets or food allergies may be able to be accommodated if they let us know beforehand. Nonalcoholic beverages will be provided, so if you desire, BYOB. > > Please do not hesitate to send questions, comments, and presentation intentions, titles, and/ or abstracts to conference organizers. > > Have a Happy and Blessed Holidays to all, > > Saul Schwartz > sschwart at princeton.edu > 785-595-3335 (home) > 614-519-6964 (cell) > > Jimm Goodtracks > jgoodtracks at gmail.com > 785-595-3335 (home) > 785-979-2015 (cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 23 08:05:05 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 00:05:05 -0800 Subject: Sioux Name Message-ID: "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying “Adders” and, by extension, “enemies.” (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281.   The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, “A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan”   Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words?   I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible?   Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia?    The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 26 22:51:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:51:33 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. Message-ID: The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'. It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'. Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian. He replies: "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984). Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749. See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ). It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W. Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying “Adders” and, by extension, “enemies.” (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, “A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan” Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 26 23:08:59 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:08:59 +0000 Subject: More on Frida Hahn. Message-ID: Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway-Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. Bob --------- Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: "When I was working about Franz Boas´ in the early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could be said about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 there was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear that she had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is absolutely sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New York - was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I´ll try to convince her that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old Ponca material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don´t know whether the Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who might remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. It´s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it was him who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember well) had worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a letter to Boas in summer 1933. I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if they are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be great. Next week, I´ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German contacts in the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and Günter Wagner (Yuchi and Comanche) at a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code talkers and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages might be very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner who had done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else than Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? Best regards, Jürgen Langenkämper" From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 23:17:05 2011 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:17:05 -0800 Subject: More on Frida Hahn. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4FA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I believe Günter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas´ in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I´ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don´t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It´s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I´ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and Günter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > Jürgen Langenkämper" From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 06:04:42 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:04:42 -0800 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: That does help and thank you for explaining the newer material.   Another question that I have regarding the name (Nah)yssan/Yesa/Yesan/Yesang is whether or not it may be the same word as the Lakota Oyasin as in Mitakuye Oyasin?   Is it possible that a dialect difference would produce a nasal sound at the begining of the Nah-yssan?         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'.  It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'.  Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian.  He replies:  "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984).  Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749.  See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ).  It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W.  Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying “Adders” and, by extension, “enemies.” (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, “A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan” Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 06:08:14 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:08:14 -0800 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dr. Rankin may I forward this explaination of the word Sioux to one my lakota friends?   Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'.  It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'.  Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian.  He replies:  "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984).  Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749.  See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ).  It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W.  Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying “Adders” and, by extension, “enemies.” (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, “A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan” Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jan 27 22:55:51 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 22:55:51 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. Message-ID: I don't know the answer to that but would like to. Jürgen Langenkämper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe Günter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas´ in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I´ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don´t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It´s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I´ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and Günter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > Jürgen Langenkämper" From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jan 28 14:58:00 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:58:00 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update Message-ID: Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:46:42 2011 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:46:42 -0600 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B5CB@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Well, skepticism is always good. I did hear from Grandpa Truman Dailey a story from his father George W. Dailey (who had been the Otoe-Missouria tribal interpreter) that a German man approached him in his hotel room in D.C. trying to learn about Indians and whether or not they might be sympathetic to rebellion or some such thing! I have to think there is some grain of truth in the meeting at least. Perhaps the communication difficulties may have been an obstacle to clearly understanding what the gentleman wanted, but it certainly piques one's interest. One of the trips, when he was still in grade school, Truman went along to DC on the train with his father. That trip would have been prior to WWI, and I believe he said Taft was then the President!! So, I'm sure that story circulated around Red Rock and who knows where else eventually. Jill Greer >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 1/27/2011 4:55 PM >>> I don't know the answer to that but would like to. Jürgen Langenkämper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe Günter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boaś in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. Íll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I dońt know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It́s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, Íll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and Günter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > Jürgen Langenkämper" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jan 28 18:07:39 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:07:39 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <4D429E920200000B00039391@gwwebportal2.mssu.edu> Message-ID: That's really interesting. There were definite attempts during WW I to get, for example, Mexico to make war against the US (the episode of the famous Zimmerman telegram). I don't know how much of this sort of thing went on during WW II. And the matter of language study and field work is still murky after all this time. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Jill Greer [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:46 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Gunther Wagner.. Well, skepticism is always good. I did hear from Grandpa Truman Dailey a story from his father George W. Dailey (who had been the Otoe-Missouria tribal interpreter) that a German man approached him in his hotel room in D.C. trying to learn about Indians and whether or not they might be sympathetic to rebellion or some such thing! I have to think there is some grain of truth in the meeting at least. Perhaps the communication difficulties may have been an obstacle to clearly understanding what the gentleman wanted, but it certainly piques one's interest. One of the trips, when he was still in grade school, Truman went along to DC on the train with his father. That trip would have been prior to WWI, and I believe he said Taft was then the President!! So, I'm sure that story circulated around Red Rock and who knows where else eventually. Jill Greer >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 1/27/2011 4:55 PM >>> I don't know the answer to that but would like to. Jürgen Langenkämper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe Günter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boaś in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. Íll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I dońt know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It́s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, Íll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and Günter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > Jürgen Langenkämper" From demallie at indiana.edu Fri Jan 28 18:39:01 2011 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie Jr, Raymond J.) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:01 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B5CB@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My colleague Jason Jackson here at Indiana sent me the message below re. Gunther Wagner: Ray DeMallie Gunter Wagner's story is reasonably well known and his professional biography is told in a dissertation turned book written by the German historian of anthropology and ethnologist Udo Mizchek. See Leben und Werk Gunter Wagners (1908-1952) http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/237628975 His German ethnology period preceded his Boasian linguistics and ethnology period which preceded his Malinowskian Africanist period and WWII and the post war period landed him in South African anthropology. In addition to his well known African work and his reasonably well known linguistic work on Yuchi, he also authored an ethnological dissertation on the Native American Church (Peyote Religion). From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 28 18:59:03 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:59:03 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations and Aloha Bruce --- On Fri, 28/1/11, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, 28 January, 2011, 14:58 Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program  to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jan 28 20:27:28 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:27:28 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Ray. And to Jason. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." Sender: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:01 To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Reply-To: Subject: RE: Gunther Wagner.. My colleague Jason Jackson here at Indiana sent me the message below re. Gunther Wagner: Ray DeMallie Gunter Wagner's story is reasonably well known and his professional biography is told in a dissertation turned book written by the German historian of anthropology and ethnologist Udo Mizchek. See Leben und Werk Gunter Wagners (1908-1952) http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/237628975 His German ethnology period preceded his Boasian linguistics and ethnology period which preceded his Malinowskian Africanist period and WWII and the post war period landed him in South African anthropology. In addition to his well known African work and his reasonably well known linguistic work on Yuchi, he also authored an ethnological dissertation on the Native American Church (Peyote Religion). From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 21:06:01 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:06:01 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, Catherine! Congratulations! The O/P Dictionary site really looks nice, as I went over there and looked around. I noted that several O/P letters were not hi-lighted, and several new characters were there, like a "kh" followed by a hyper font "h". Does that represent a new glottal stop font, or does it mean something else? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:58 AM Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Jan 28 22:54:43 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:54:43 -0700 Subject: OmahaMaterialCul. of the Prairie, Plains, & Plateau April14-16 Message-ID: > If you missed last year's conference it is not too late catch it this year. > >>> Speakers: >>> Ray Wood A Portrait of Fort Clark, 1833 >> Emil Her Many Horses Lakota Double Woman Quillwork Design >>> John Lukavic Recent Research on Southern Cheyenne Moccasin Design >>> Louis Garcia Dakota Cut Outs >>> Ken Weidner Early Plains Silverwork >>> Peter Gibbs Lakota Elk Dreamer Quill Design >>> Earl Fenner Recent Plains Silverwork >>> Matt Reed Recently Found Douhausen Kiowa Lodge Cover >> Chris Grezlik Native American Church in Winnebago Society Barry Hardin The Gourd Dance: A Southern Plains Phenomenon >>> >>> Fieldtrip: >>> Steamboat Bertrand at DeSoto Nat. Wildlife Refuge with lunch at Old Fort Atkinson: >>> http://www.fws.gov/midwest/desoto/bertrand.htm >>> http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ne-fortatkinson.html >>> >>> Fee: >>> Speakers free, $125 participants, $150 after March 13th. >>> Send payment to: >> >>> Billy Maxwell >>> VISIT mcppp.org >>> bmaxwell at mt.net >>> 187 Woodland Est. Road >>> Great Falls, MT 59404 >>> >>> Rooms: >>> $94 a night Marriot Courtyard Aksarben Village >>> >>> http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/omawt-courtyard-omaha-aksarben-village/ Thank you, Billy Maxwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 30 19:37:19 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:37:19 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <554602.9872.qm@web83504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Of course. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:08 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Name for the Sioux. Dr. Rankin may I forward this explaination of the word Sioux to one my lakota friends? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'. It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'. Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian. He replies: "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984). Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749. See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ). It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W. Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying “Adders” and, by extension, “enemies.” (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, “A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan” Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 30 19:47:54 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:47:54 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <61378.93088.qm@web83501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Another question that I have regarding the name (Nah)yssan/Yesa/Yesan/Yesang is whether or not it may be the same word as the Lakota Oyasin as in Mitakuye Oyasin? I wouldn't think so. The problem is that the sound /y/ in Tutelo normally wouldn't match the sound /y/ in Dakotan. If you have a /y/ in Tutelo, you would expect a /ch/ in Dakota. > Is it possible that a dialect difference would produce a nasal sound at the beginning of the Nah-yssan? Given that Yesan(g) (actually /yesą/ with a nasal vowel) by itself is attested as the Tutelo's name for themselves, the Na- prefix probably means something specific, but I don't know what that would be. I wouldn't expect it to simply "appear" without meaning. One of the many mysteries about Tutelo. Bob From bmaxwell at mt.net Wed Jan 5 16:12:28 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:12:28 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You can layer your fonts, but it is more the program you are running than Mac. VISIT mcppp.org On Jan 5, 2011, at 8:34 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > From meya at lakhota.org Wed Jan 5 16:26:15 2011 From: meya at lakhota.org (Wilhelm K. Meya) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 11:26:15 -0500 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello all, There are the Mac Fonts and a Keyboard program for the Standard Lakota Orthography. I tried attaching a Font Installer with 6 Unicode Mac fonts and a Keyboard Installer for Mac OS 10 as well as installation instructions, but the attachments would not go through to the list-serve. In any case, a CD containing both the Mac and PC fonts and Keyboards as well as Keyboard stickers is available here: http://stores.languagepress.com/Categories.bok?category=Software These fonts work with almost all Mac applications, email, web, as well as across platforms. Best, Wil > Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director > > Lakota Language Consortium > 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 > Bloomington, IN 47404 > > Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 > Tel.- 812.961.0140 > Cell.- 812.340.3517 > Fax.- 812.961.0141 > meya at lakhota.org > > http://www.lakhota.org > > > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need > to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an > acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted > comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and > h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on > separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have > become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got > unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mac-Installation.pdf.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 349240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linguista at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 16:37:04 2011 From: linguista at gmail.com (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:37:04 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bruce, I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: 1. Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. 2. Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. 1. Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) 2. Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font. 3. The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ? is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ?" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' ? ? ? ? ?, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. Hope that helps! - Bryan 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I > need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility > of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an > inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, > c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the > hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more > advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I > have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Wed Jan 5 16:51:16 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:51:16 -0700 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have not played with fonts in Word since I got this new MacBook Pro. I see your problem. I will not get rid of my older unit just to play with fonts. Billy Maxwell VISIT mcppp.org bmaxwell at mt.net 187 Woodland Est. Road Great Falls, MT 59404 On Jan 5, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! > > I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: > Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. > Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. > This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. > Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) > Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font. > The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. > In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ? is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ?" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' ? ? ? ? ?, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. > > Hope that helps! > > - Bryan > > 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 5 15:34:10 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:34:10 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users Message-ID: Dear all, Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. Hope someone can help. Yours Bruce From ti at fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Jan 5 18:35:56 2011 From: ti at fa-kuan.muc.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Alfred_W._T=FCting=22?=) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:35:56 +0100 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: <998928.18240.qm@web29507.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bruce, maybe this could be a starting point for you: a couple of years ago I had the same problem. I'll attach my then email to enlighten the issue: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?"Alfred_W._T=FCting"?= Subject: Re: SILKey - Ukelele Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:43:52 +0200 Size: 12389 URL: -------------- next part -------------- This is the keyboard I once rendered for my own use (based on the German layout) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakota.keylayout Kopie Type: application/octet-stream Size: 79976 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Here's one example that I once had generated using "my" La??ta keyboard (I know Jan Ullrich doesn't appreciate this "convenience" at all, contacting me several time for this reason ;-) ): http://www.fa-kuan.de/LAKCONV.HTML In short: I had used the simple software "Ukelele" to alter the underlying (German) keyboard. Maybe this helps. Best regards Alfred Am 05.01.2011 um 16:34 schrieb shokooh Ingham: > Dear all, > Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using > them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to > have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n > for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- > and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how > pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately > that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have > become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of > course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. > Hope someone can help. > Yours > Bruce > > > _______________ Alfred W. T?ting ti at fa-kuan.muc.de From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 5 19:20:26 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:20:26 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Bryan, I'll have a look at it tomorrow.? Glad you liked the 'information structure' Yours Bruce --- On Wed, 5/1/11, Bryan James Gordon wrote: From: Bryan James Gordon Subject: Re: plea for help from Mac users To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Wednesday, 5 January, 2011, 16:37 Dear Bruce, I recently had the pleasure of reading some of your work on information structure in Arabic. Thanks for that! I use Mac pretty regularly. If I am not mistaken, your goal is to produce a separate Lakota font such that, using a standard American keyboard layout, people can get access to all the Lakota characters. I would suggest an alternative, and much easier to code, route: Install a Unicode-compliant font that has all the characters from most American languages, like Aboriginal Serif/Sans, from languagegeek.org, or Gentium/Doulos and the other SIL fonts, or any other Unicode font with all the characters you need. Download the Lakota keyboard from languagegeek.org (click on "Mac Download for All languages") and follow the easy installation instructions for Mac. This will give you several advantages over the old-fashioned approach of one language, one font. Someone else has already done all the coding work. (They have three different Lakota keyboards to choose from!) Everyone who uses this system, will have Unicode-compliant (and therefore electronically archivable) copy instead of something that depends on a particular font.The Mac Siouan keyboard is easy to use, easy to switch back and forth to English keyboard (in Mac you can use Command-Space to switch keyboards usually), and is built into the desktop so that you can easily adjust your settings no matter what you're doing; and Mac also allows you to look at a picture of your keyboard on your screen if that helps. Very functional. In the "All-in-One" keyboard the long ? is on your semicolon key, the inverted comma and hacek on the left-bracket key. In the "Long ?" keyboard the inverted comma is on the grave accent key, and only the hacek is on the left-bracket key. The "White Hat" keyboard does not have haceks. Thus the characters you ask specifically about, p' t' c' k' ? ? ? ? ?, are easily produced using either of two already available Lakota keyboards. Hope that helps! - Bryan 2011/1/5 shokooh Ingham Dear all, Do any of you use a mac? I think I'm in the minority by using them. I need to develop a font for writing Lakota. It needs to have the possibility of an acute accent for vowel stress, a long n for the nasal vowels, an inverted comma to make p'-, t'- c'- and k'- and a hatchek to go over s-, z-, c-, g- and h-. I don't mind how pedestrian it is and if I have to put the hatcheks on separately that's OK. Macs used to be easy, but the more advanced they have become, the less things you can do in your own way. I have of course got unicode, but it's difficult to make a font with it. Hope someone can help. Yours Bruce -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 6 10:04:44 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:04:44 +0000 Subject: plea for help from Mac users Message-ID: Dear everybody, Thank you for all the useful suggestions. I'm spoilt for choice now. I will be looking in to it over the next few days. Happy new year. Bruce From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Sat Jan 22 18:02:19 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:02:19 -0600 Subject: Fw: 2011 SACC lodging update Message-ID: Aloha all, When I received lodging confirmation from the Squaw Creek Casino Hotel it indicated their "regular" rate. A phone call and email got the situation sorted out and the "conference rate" applied. Y'all might want to double-check the rates when making reservations. Looking forward to seeing you all in White Cloud in June. WibthahoN Mark Awakuni-Swetland. ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 01/22/11 11:58 AM ----- "Jimm GoodTracks" 01/21/11 08:41 AM To "Mark J Awakuni-Swetland" cc Subject Re: 2011 SACC update Mark: You may want to share this letter with the list. Everyone should note that the tribal motel and the tribal cabins by the casino are under two separate managers. Reservations for the cabins are made via the White Cloud Casino. Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: Brenda Graves Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 7:53 AM Subject: RE: 2011 SACC update Aho Brenda, Many thanks for sorting out the lodging rates. I look forward to come south in June with my University of Nebraska-Lincoln Omaha language team. WibthahoN, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland "Brenda Graves" 01/20/11 02:42 PM I have checked with Gary our manager and he confirmed he was aware of this. Attached is your new confirmation stating the change in price. We look forward to your visit. If you have any questions, just give us a call. Thank you, Brenda. -----Original Message----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland [mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:14 PM To: bgraves at squawcreek.net Cc: jgoodtracks at gmail.com Subject: Fw: 2011 SACC update Aloha Brenda, Here is the conference lodging rates announced for the June meeting I mentioned on the phone just now. Let me know if you have additional questions. Thanks for helping us out. Best, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland ----- Forwarded by Mark J Awakuni-Swetland/UNLAS/UNL/UNEBR on 01/20/11 02:12 PM ----- "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU 12/20/10 08:31 PM Please respond to siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU To cc Subject Fw: 2011 SACC update ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jimm GoodTracks" Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:49 PM Subject: 2011 SACC update > Aho, > > We have an exciting update regarding the 2011 Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, to be held Wednesday, June 15, through Saturday, June 18, 2011 at the tribal complex of the Iowa Tribe of KS and NE, which is located 6 miles NW of White Cloud, KS, at 3345 Thrasher Road, White Cloud, KS 66094 (http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/iowatribe.html). > > The Iowa Tribe of KS and NE has anounced a special conference rate of $30 per night on rooms at the casino cabins ( http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/dining.html) and also at the Squaw Creek Eagles Nest Motel (http://www.casinowhitecloud.org/eaglesnest.html). > > There are ONLY FOUR casino cabins (normally $60 per night), which have a double bed and are less than one mile from the conference location, gas station & convenience store, and tribal casino, which serves breakfast, lunch, and dinner to order in addition to lunch and dinner buffets. For reservations, call 785-595-3430. Mention the Conference rate in effect. Note however, the cabins will be rented on a first come, first serve basis. In other words, the cabins will not be held on reserve. Therefore, for those who are interested and have the cabins as a preference, early reservations are advised. > > The Iowa Tribe's Eagles Nest Motel has 23 rooms (normally $50 plus $7 per additional person per night), which have two double beds and are 20 miles from the conference location. The tribe has a six passenger shuttle van that provides free transportation between the motel and the casino/ conference site. The motel is connected to a gas station & convenience store and restaurant. It is also located three miles from the scenic Squaw Creek National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/squawcreek/). For reservations, call 660-442-3267 or 1-866-994-1320. > > Again, the special conference rate for both options is $30 per room per night with no extra charge for additional persons in a room. > > Conference registration will take place at the conference. A $20 conference fee will help cover associated costs (refreshments, building setup and cleanup, etc.). As is customary, theoretical and comparative linguistics presentations will be scheduled first, and the applied and community linguistics presentations will follow. While May 1, 2011, is the final date to submit an abstract, it would be appreciated if those who are planning a presentation could let us know sooner rather than later for scheduling purposes. Presentations are usually 20 minutes followed by 10 minutes for questions and comments, but presenters with different needs can be accommodated if they let us know beforehand. Presenters should plan to bring a sufficient supply of their various handouts. > > All are invited for supper on Friday evening at the Goodtracks home near town at 1510 Wisconsin Street, White Cloud, KS. Vegetarian options will be provided. Those with other special diets or food allergies may be able to be accommodated if they let us know beforehand. Nonalcoholic beverages will be provided, so if you desire, BYOB. > > Please do not hesitate to send questions, comments, and presentation intentions, titles, and/ or abstracts to conference organizers. > > Have a Happy and Blessed Holidays to all, > > Saul Schwartz > sschwart at princeton.edu > 785-595-3335 (home) > 614-519-6964 (cell) > > Jimm Goodtracks > jgoodtracks at gmail.com > 785-595-3335 (home) > 785-979-2015 (cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 23 08:05:05 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 00:05:05 -0800 Subject: Sioux Name Message-ID: "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying ?Adders? and, by extension, ?enemies.? (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. ? The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, ?A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan? ? Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? ? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? ? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn?possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia?? ? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 26 22:51:33 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:51:33 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. Message-ID: The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'. It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'. Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian. He replies: "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984). Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749. See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ). It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W. Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying ?Adders? and, by extension, ?enemies.? (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, ?A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan? Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." From rankin at ku.edu Wed Jan 26 23:08:59 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:08:59 +0000 Subject: More on Frida Hahn. Message-ID: Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway-Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. Bob --------- Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: "When I was working about Franz Boas? in the early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could be said about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 there was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear that she had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is absolutely sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New York - was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I?ll try to convince her that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old Ponca material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don?t know whether the Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who might remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. It?s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it was him who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember well) had worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a letter to Boas in summer 1933. I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if they are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be great. Next week, I?ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German contacts in the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and G?nter Wagner (Yuchi and Comanche) at a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code talkers and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages might be very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner who had done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else than Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? Best regards, J?rgen Langenk?mper" From pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 23:17:05 2011 From: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net (David Costa) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:17:05 -0800 Subject: More on Frida Hahn. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4FA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I believe G?nter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas? in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I?ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don?t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It?s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I?ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and G?nter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > J?rgen Langenk?mper" From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 06:04:42 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:04:42 -0800 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: That does help and thank you for explaining the newer material. ? Another question that I?have regarding the name (Nah)yssan/Yesa/Yesan/Yesang is whether or not it may be the same word as?the Lakota Oyasin as in Mitakuye Oyasin? ? Is it possible that a dialect difference would produce a nasal sound at the begining of the Nah-yssan? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'.? It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'.? Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian.? He replies:? "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984).? Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749.? See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ).? It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W.? Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying ?Adders? and, by extension, ?enemies.? (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, ?A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan? Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 06:08:14 2011 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:08:14 -0800 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B4D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Dr. Rankin may I forward this explaination of the word Sioux to one my lakota friends? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'.? It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'.? Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian.? He replies:? "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984).? Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749.? See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ).? It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W.? Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying ?Adders? and, by extension, ?enemies.? (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, ?A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan? Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Thu Jan 27 22:55:51 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 22:55:51 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. Message-ID: I don't know the answer to that but would like to. J?rgen Langenk?mper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe G?nter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas? in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I?ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don?t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It?s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I?ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and G?nter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > J?rgen Langenk?mper" From mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu Fri Jan 28 14:58:00 2011 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unlnotes.unl.edu (Mark J Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:58:00 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update Message-ID: Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:46:42 2011 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Jill Greer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:46:42 -0600 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B5CB@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Well, skepticism is always good. I did hear from Grandpa Truman Dailey a story from his father George W. Dailey (who had been the Otoe-Missouria tribal interpreter) that a German man approached him in his hotel room in D.C. trying to learn about Indians and whether or not they might be sympathetic to rebellion or some such thing! I have to think there is some grain of truth in the meeting at least. Perhaps the communication difficulties may have been an obstacle to clearly understanding what the gentleman wanted, but it certainly piques one's interest. One of the trips, when he was still in grade school, Truman went along to DC on the train with his father. That trip would have been prior to WWI, and I believe he said Taft was then the President!! So, I'm sure that story circulated around Red Rock and who knows where else eventually. Jill Greer >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 1/27/2011 4:55 PM >>> I don't know the answer to that but would like to. J?rgen Langenk?mper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe G?nter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas? in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I?ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don?t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It?s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I?ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and G?nter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > J?rgen Langenk?mper" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jan 28 18:07:39 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:07:39 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <4D429E920200000B00039391@gwwebportal2.mssu.edu> Message-ID: That's really interesting. There were definite attempts during WW I to get, for example, Mexico to make war against the US (the episode of the famous Zimmerman telegram). I don't know how much of this sort of thing went on during WW II. And the matter of language study and field work is still murky after all this time. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Jill Greer [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:46 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Gunther Wagner.. Well, skepticism is always good. I did hear from Grandpa Truman Dailey a story from his father George W. Dailey (who had been the Otoe-Missouria tribal interpreter) that a German man approached him in his hotel room in D.C. trying to learn about Indians and whether or not they might be sympathetic to rebellion or some such thing! I have to think there is some grain of truth in the meeting at least. Perhaps the communication difficulties may have been an obstacle to clearly understanding what the gentleman wanted, but it certainly piques one's interest. One of the trips, when he was still in grade school, Truman went along to DC on the train with his father. That trip would have been prior to WWI, and I believe he said Taft was then the President!! So, I'm sure that story circulated around Red Rock and who knows where else eventually. Jill Greer >>> "Rankin, Robert L" 1/27/2011 4:55 PM >>> I don't know the answer to that but would like to. J?rgen Langenk?mper is interested in him also and may find something out. There were all those stories about German linguists coming here in the '30s to learn languages so that they could not be used as "code" by the military. I think they were believed in Washington, if not by others, since the famous code talkers were used in the Pacific Theater of Operations -- I think exclusively. Now that the German archives from that period are generally available, someone should check on that story and, if true, write a book about it. It would make fascinating reading. I'm a skeptic and tend to doubt it ever happened, but you never know. . . . Bob ________________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:17 PM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: More on Frida Hahn. I believe G?nter Wagner disappeared by the early 1940s, as well; does anyone know what eventually became of him? I've spoken with some Yuchis working with his materials, and they seem to have no idea what happened to him either. Dave Costa > Sometime back there was discussion of the German scholar, Frida > Hahn, who had been a student of Franz Boas and who had produced a > draft dissertation on Ponca grammar, a copy of which was found by > John Koontz in the APS library filed under Gordon Marsh (the Ioway- > Otoe scholar). I had concluded that, since she returned to Germany > during the 1930s and was Jewish, it was possible that she had not > survived the war. This discussion was picked up by a German > scholar, Juergen Langenkaemper, who is researching Franz Boas and > his students. He writes me that Frida Hahn did indeed survive the > war and ultimately married a man she had met in New York. She > apparently died in 1984 but her daughter is still alive. I hope > that Mr. Langenkaemper will provide us with additional information > on Frida Hahn as it becomes available. It is good to know that the > story of Ms. Hahn had a happy ending. > > Bob > > --------- > > Here is Langenkaemper's message to me: > > "When I was working about Franz Boas? in the > early 1930s I had to stop at a certain point because nothing could > be said > about Frida Hahn. Except your little discussion in April/May 2008 > there > was really nothing. I followed some very speculative positions some of > yours had had and finally arrived at the point that it was clear > that she > had survived the war. Finally I found her daughter, and it is > absolutely > sure that Katrin Husemann as she called herself later according to her > second name and to the man she had married - she had met him in New > York - > was exactly Frida Hahn. She had told her daughter that she had studied > with Boas and that she had been with the Ponca Indians. Photos the > daughter had sent to me last week, proof this. I?ll try to convince > her > that we must look if her mother who died in 1985, had left her old > Ponca > material at her house near Hamburg. I hope so. I don?t know whether > the > Ponca nation might be interested. But if there is anybody left who > might > remember the days when Frida Hahn was in Oklahoma, we must act quite > quickly. These persons might be 90 years old. > > It?s very sad to hear that Tom Leonard died last year. I think it > was him > who told me that his mother (who had adopted him, if I remember > well) had > worked for Frida as a school girl. Frida had told about this in a > letter > to Boas in summer 1933. > > I would be very anxious to get in contact with the Ponca nation, if > they > are interested. If you and Kathleen Shea could help that would be > great. > > Next week, I?ll be in Canada to talk about Boas and his German > contacts in > the 1930s, including Frida Hahn and G?nter Wagner (Yuchi and > Comanche) at > a conference, organized by Regna Darnell. The problem of the code > talkers > and Germans who came to the US to study American Indian languages > might be > very interesting. Have you heard of others except Hahn and Wagner > who had > done this with the help of Boas. Could there have been anyone else > than > Boas, Kroeber and Lowie to guide students? > > Best regards, > > J?rgen Langenk?mper" From demallie at indiana.edu Fri Jan 28 18:39:01 2011 From: demallie at indiana.edu (Demallie Jr, Raymond J.) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:01 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6B5CB@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My colleague Jason Jackson here at Indiana sent me the message below re. Gunther Wagner: Ray DeMallie Gunter Wagner's story is reasonably well known and his professional biography is told in a dissertation turned book written by the German historian of anthropology and ethnologist Udo Mizchek. See Leben und Werk Gunter Wagners (1908-1952) http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/237628975 His German ethnology period preceded his Boasian linguistics and ethnology period which preceded his Malinowskian Africanist period and WWII and the post war period landed him in South African anthropology. In addition to his well known African work and his reasonably well known linguistic work on Yuchi, he also authored an ethnological dissertation on the Native American Church (Peyote Religion). From shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 28 18:59:03 2011 From: shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk (shokooh Ingham) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:59:03 +0000 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations and Aloha Bruce --- On Fri, 28/1/11, Mark J Awakuni-Swetland wrote: From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Date: Friday, 28 January, 2011, 14:58 Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program ?to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Fri Jan 28 20:27:28 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (rankin at ku.edu) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:27:28 +0000 Subject: Gunther Wagner.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Ray. And to Jason. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Demallie Jr, Raymond J." Sender: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:01 To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Reply-To: Subject: RE: Gunther Wagner.. My colleague Jason Jackson here at Indiana sent me the message below re. Gunther Wagner: Ray DeMallie Gunter Wagner's story is reasonably well known and his professional biography is told in a dissertation turned book written by the German historian of anthropology and ethnologist Udo Mizchek. See Leben und Werk Gunter Wagners (1908-1952) http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/237628975 His German ethnology period preceded his Boasian linguistics and ethnology period which preceded his Malinowskian Africanist period and WWII and the post war period landed him in South African anthropology. In addition to his well known African work and his reasonably well known linguistic work on Yuchi, he also authored an ethnological dissertation on the Native American Church (Peyote Religion). From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 21:06:01 2011 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:06:01 -0600 Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, Catherine! Congratulations! The O/P Dictionary site really looks nice, as I went over there and looked around. I noted that several O/P letters were not hi-lighted, and several new characters were there, like a "kh" followed by a hyper font "h". Does that represent a new glottal stop font, or does it mean something else? Jimm ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Awakuni-Swetland To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:58 AM Subject: Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary update Aloha All, Catherine Rudin and I are happy to announce that the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary is now public. You can access the site at http://omahaponca.unl.edu It is a relatively small lexicon at this early stage. Each entry has just the basic Omaha word, part of speech, and English definition. The JOD 19th century slip is viewable for each entry. The site is searchable on the Omaha word, English word, and part of speech. The number of entries will continue to grow, as will the amount of information in each entry, as we work through the database of ~15,000 images. Please use the site and alert me to any oddities or problems. The OPDD work thus far has been supported by an NEH grant that will expire at the end of August 2011. A second 3-year application to the NSF/NEH/SI Documenting Endangered Languages program to continue the work was submitted in September 2010. I just received notice that the application was declined. Regards, Mark Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison University of Nebraska Department of Anthropology 841 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu Phone 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmaxwell at mt.net Fri Jan 28 22:54:43 2011 From: bmaxwell at mt.net (Billy Maxwell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:54:43 -0700 Subject: OmahaMaterialCul. of the Prairie, Plains, & Plateau April14-16 Message-ID: > If you missed last year's conference it is not too late catch it this year. > >>> Speakers: >>> Ray Wood A Portrait of Fort Clark, 1833 >> Emil Her Many Horses Lakota Double Woman Quillwork Design >>> John Lukavic Recent Research on Southern Cheyenne Moccasin Design >>> Louis Garcia Dakota Cut Outs >>> Ken Weidner Early Plains Silverwork >>> Peter Gibbs Lakota Elk Dreamer Quill Design >>> Earl Fenner Recent Plains Silverwork >>> Matt Reed Recently Found Douhausen Kiowa Lodge Cover >> Chris Grezlik Native American Church in Winnebago Society Barry Hardin The Gourd Dance: A Southern Plains Phenomenon >>> >>> Fieldtrip: >>> Steamboat Bertrand at DeSoto Nat. Wildlife Refuge with lunch at Old Fort Atkinson: >>> http://www.fws.gov/midwest/desoto/bertrand.htm >>> http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ne-fortatkinson.html >>> >>> Fee: >>> Speakers free, $125 participants, $150 after March 13th. >>> Send payment to: >> >>> Billy Maxwell >>> VISIT mcppp.org >>> bmaxwell at mt.net >>> 187 Woodland Est. Road >>> Great Falls, MT 59404 >>> >>> Rooms: >>> $94 a night Marriot Courtyard Aksarben Village >>> >>> http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/omawt-courtyard-omaha-aksarben-village/ Thank you, Billy Maxwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 30 19:37:19 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:37:19 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <554602.9872.qm@web83504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Of course. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:08 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: Name for the Sioux. Dr. Rankin may I forward this explaination of the word Sioux to one my lakota friends? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Rankin, Robert L wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L Subject: Name for the Sioux. To: "siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:51 PM The source of the term for "Sioux" has been shown to be something other than the Swanton explanation in terms of 'adder/enemy'. It is apparently derived from the Ottawa verb that means 'those who speak another language'. Just to be certain, I queried Ives Goddard, probably the most senior Algonquianist and recently retired from the Smithsonian. He replies: "I first published on "Sioux" in the AES Naming Systems volume (1984). Doug Parks gives a very full presentation of the facts in the synonymy in (the new) Handbook or North American Indians, vol. 13(2):749. See the volume bibliography for my reference." "Although the longer form of the word seems to have been specifically Ottawa within Ojibwean, it has a cognate in Arapaho, which implies some antiquity." "Siebert's idea that the meaning was *originally* 'massasauga rattlesnake' is shown to be impossible by the fact that all the Algonquian words (for both the tribe and snake meanings) have /tow/ (or its reflex), not /taw/ as his etymology requires, except for Menominee (which has /a/ for expected /o/ in a number of words, especially after dentals) and one isolated transcription of modern Miami-Illinois by Gatschet (Costa in Papers of 31st Algonquian Conf., 2000, pp. 36-37, correcting Voegelin's misreading with of Dunn's Miami form with ). It is interesting that Illinois 'timber rattlesnake' (the other species) could have an etymology like the one that Siebert proposed (but probably with /nataw-/ 'seek', not /na:t-/ 'go to get'), but this obviously does not help his specific argument." "The verb for 'to speak a foreign language' which I postulated can now be cited: Illinois has 'etranger', the participle ('one who ...') of this (Kaskaskia Illinois-to-French Dictionary, ed. Carl Masthay, 2002, p. 198)." The character spelled with the "8" was used by the French to render the sound of W. Given this source, plus the fact that the longer form of (Nah)yssan is spelled out "yesan" by Hale, it seems unlikely that this term for the Tutelo is at all related to the Algonquian term for the Sioux (whichever its source). I hope this helps. Bob ________________________________ From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU [owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:05 AM To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU Subject: Sioux Name "Sioux is transparently a derivation of the same Algonkian root Nadouek. Swanton reports that Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux, which appears to be a French corruption of Nadowe-is-iw, which the French picked up from the Chippewa, signifying ?Adders? and, by extension, ?enemies.? (5) (5) John R. Swanton, The Indian Tribes of North America (Washington, D.C.:Smithsonian Institution Press, 1968), 280-281. The above from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, pg. 66 of the American Indian Culture and Research Journal, ?A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan? Is it possible that Nahyssan is some how connected to the above mentioned words? I had mentioned before that my Great Grandmother had a bedtime prayer in which she said neda wa ha. It was suggested that it may mean enemy. I am starting to wonder if the term is actually of Siouan derivation that was picked up by the Algonquins at an early date, is that possible? Is a variant form of Nahyssan/Nahyssn possibly Niasont or Honiasont. Is it possible that the the entire Sioaun speaking people may have at one time been represented by the Serpent much like the Wakeni clan or the Manahoac/Mahock town of Whonkentia? The Serpent was representative of the Occaneechi and the Catawba. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." From rankin at ku.edu Sun Jan 30 19:47:54 2011 From: rankin at ku.edu (Rankin, Robert L) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:47:54 +0000 Subject: Name for the Sioux. In-Reply-To: <61378.93088.qm@web83501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Another question that I have regarding the name (Nah)yssan/Yesa/Yesan/Yesang is whether or not it may be the same word as the Lakota Oyasin as in Mitakuye Oyasin? I wouldn't think so. The problem is that the sound /y/ in Tutelo normally wouldn't match the sound /y/ in Dakotan. If you have a /y/ in Tutelo, you would expect a /ch/ in Dakota. > Is it possible that a dialect difference would produce a nasal sound at the beginning of the Nah-yssan? Given that Yesan(g) (actually /yes?/ with a nasal vowel) by itself is attested as the Tutelo's name for themselves, the Na- prefix probably means something specific, but I don't know what that would be. I wouldn't expect it to simply "appear" without meaning. One of the many mysteries about Tutelo. Bob