From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 10 20:17:59 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:17:59 -0500
Subject: NAME
Message-ID: <FRI.10.AUG.2012.151759.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 
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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Fri Aug 10 21:26:21 2012
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:26:21 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
Message-ID: <FRI.10.AUG.2012.162621.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje
Jiwere Language Project, “Chiwere Audio Archive Project” is included in
the NEH/NSF announcement today.  

Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm

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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Sat Aug 11 06:25:45 2012
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:25:45 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.012545.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Way to go! Yáli wáli s^kághe eyáo, kkóya!

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:
> I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant -- Baxoje
> Jiwere Language Project, “Chiwere Audio Archive Project” is included in the
> NEH/NSF announcement today.
>
> Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm


From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK  Sat Aug 11 09:02:56 2012
From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 10:02:56 +0100
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.100256.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Great news!

A

>>> Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> 08/10/12 10:29 PM >>>
I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje
Jiwere Language Project, “Chiwere Audio Archive Project” is included in
the NEH/NSF announcement today.

Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm



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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Aug 11 16:33:46 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:33:46 +0000
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNbBi1-Zc4XQstYaeY7J1cp0BpBLDwRP_p6xV5YhTFt4Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.163346.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Right on, dude!!


From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Aug 11 16:48:12 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:48:12 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <947A963C159047C1895F2B5A5276367F@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.164812.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name “Wa-to-co-co” meaning something along lines of “Standing with Staff” or “Standing with Dancing Staff.”   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU  Sat Aug 11 17:07:40 2012
From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:07:40 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.120740.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wonderful news, Jimm!
Lori

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

> I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant -- Baxoje
> Jiwere Language Project, “Chiwere Audio Archive Project” is included in the
> NEH/NSF announcement today.
>
> Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm
>



-- 
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
563-387-1283
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Sat Aug 11 21:28:27 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:28:27 -0500
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623642C7A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.162827.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 


From: Rankin, Robert L. 
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: NAME


The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME


On the 1891 OM census. the name “Wa-to-co-co” meaning something along lines of “Standing with Staff” or “Standing with Dancing Staff.”   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Aug 12 21:22:34 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:22:34 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <D7BE6FA6C98F476D9BFFC3F05AB43B69@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.AUG.2012.212234.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name “Wa-to-co-co” meaning something along lines of “Standing with Staff” or “Standing with Dancing Staff.”   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Mon Aug 13 14:41:30 2012
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:41:30 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623642E86@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.144130.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Aloha All,
Here are a few ramblings to offer.

Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.

Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing...

Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.
To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.
or
The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'
or some other interpretation...?

And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations...?

Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting ...the class of things that continue to stand... but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).

Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.

An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.

Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME
I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: NAME
On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 15:56:10 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:56:10 +0000
Subject: ANOTHER NAME
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.155610.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have a question for the Omaha and Ponca language specialists.  I may have asked it before, but I don’t remember doing so.  Any help would be appreciated by both me and the Osages, one of whose historians has asked me about it.

In the migration stories of the Dhegiha tribes (apparently all but the Quapaws) there is the name of a village where the ancestors of the Omahas, Poncas, Osages and Kaws all dwelt together before they split up and went their separate ways.  The Kaws seemed to think in Dorsey’s time that it was maybe somewhere back towards eastern Missouri.  But the location isn’t what I’m asking about.  In Kaw the name of the place was Mądaaxpaye.  In Osage it was Mątaaxpaðe.  In Omaha and Ponca that would be Mąnaaxpaðe or Mądaaxpaðe.  To me this name seems to break down into naa-xpaðe which should be a verb meaning roughly ‘to burn down’, i.e., to cause to fall down by action of extreme heat.  And then the noun root mą, which should be the root meaning ‘soil, earth’ that is found in mąðį́kka ‘earth’, mąhe ‘bank, cliff’, mąžą ‘land’, etc.

So the whole name seems to imply something like ‘scorched earth’ or some place that burned to the ground.  The fact that all these subgroups of Dhegiha remembered the same name in Dorsey’s time strongly suggests that there was such a place, but I have no access to anyone who speaks Kaw or Osage any more.  So what does this place name mean exactly in Omaha or Ponca??

Bob
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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 19:48:40 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:48:40 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <B747C96502345B41824E0781057868133E5E0815@BY2PRD0811MB439.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.194840.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!

Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.

Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?
And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.

Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?


Jill
Dr. Jill D. Greer
Associate Professor
Social Science Department
MSSU
3950 E. Newman Road
Joplin, MO  64801
417.625.9795
Greer-j at mssu.edu



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Aloha All,
Here are a few ramblings to offer.

Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.

Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing...

Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.
To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.
or
The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'
or some other interpretation...?

And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations...?

Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting ...the class of things that continue to stand... but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).

Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.

An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.

Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]<mailto:[mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]> On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME
I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: NAME
On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.


This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 13 22:11:06 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:11:06 -0500
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022BDD4@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.171106.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Jill for bringing in the phonemic IOM distinction.  I could see a "tun" from Marks suggestions. A "^shun^shun".... perhaps.  

Meanwhile, Thanking you all for the congratulations!  However, while I may have supplied the information and budget justification summary, the real appreciation and thanks goes to Saul Schwartz, who took the bits and pieces of the materials I presented, then he sculpted, and crafted the materials into an award winning composition applying the word mortar as he built it into a convincing request, by spicing the whole with those key words & phrases that the powers need to hear.  Thus, all the applause goes to his end of the room.  I'll wait to accept any pats on the back when the whole project manifests into a published document for easy distribution to all.

Aho!  Jimm


Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!  



Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.  



Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?  

And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.   



Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?





Jill

Dr. Jill D. Greer  

Associate Professor

Social Science Department

MSSU

3950 E. Newman Road

Joplin, MO  64801  

417.625.9795

Greer-j at mssu.edu







From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Aloha All,

Here are a few ramblings to offer.



Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.



Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing.



Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.

To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.

or

The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'

or some other interpretation.?



And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations.?



Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting .the class of things that continue to stand. but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).



Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.



An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.



Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.



Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 



From: Rankin, Robert L. 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: NAME



The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 23:19:07 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (rankin at KU.EDU)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:19:07 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C878FAB5E00F476D9948CA08E6CA8E84@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.231907.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dhegiha oN=uN in Jiwere.

Bob


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jimm G. GoodTracks" <jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Siouan Linguistics <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:11:06 
To: <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

Thanks, Jill for bringing in the phonemic IOM distinction.  I could see a "tun" from Marks suggestions. A "^shun^shun".... perhaps.  

Meanwhile, Thanking you all for the congratulations!  However, while I may have supplied the information and budget justification summary, the real appreciation and thanks goes to Saul Schwartz, who took the bits and pieces of the materials I presented, then he sculpted, and crafted the materials into an award winning composition applying the word mortar as he built it into a convincing request, by spicing the whole with those key words & phrases that the powers need to hear.  Thus, all the applause goes to his end of the room.  I'll wait to accept any pats on the back when the whole project manifests into a published document for easy distribution to all.

Aho!  Jimm


Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!  



Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.  



Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?  

And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.   



Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?





Jill

Dr. Jill D. Greer  

Associate Professor

Social Science Department

MSSU

3950 E. Newman Road

Joplin, MO  64801  

417.625.9795

Greer-j at mssu.edu







From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Aloha All,

Here are a few ramblings to offer.



Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.



Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing.



Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.

To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.

or

The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'

or some other interpretation.?



And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations.?



Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting .the class of things that continue to stand. but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).



Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.



An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.



Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.



Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 



From: Rankin, Robert L. 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: NAME



The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Aug 14 16:44:42 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:44:42 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022BDD4@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.AUG.2012.164442.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


> Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there’s no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?

The nasal rounded vowel is sometimes pronounced [oN] and sometimes [uN] in Dakota.  But there's never any contrast between the two.  Omaha merged aN and uN, so even that distinction isn't made in OM.  In their practical orthography they write the merged nasal vowel as "oN", and it's pronounced like  nasal open O, sort of like the vowel in "haunt".

> And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I’m remembering things correctly.

I think probably all Siouan languages have a nasal schwa.  As far as I know it is always just a variant of nasal short /aN/.  The corresponding long vowel should be [a] with nasality.
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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Tue Aug 14 17:08:58 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:08:58 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236431DE@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.AUG.2012.170858.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks!   For those of you still teaching (or attending) classes this fall,  best wishes on the first hectic, exciting week,  and remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody's babies :).  (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I'll send you a copy.  A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that's on Jimm's site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it's always nice to have someone else's eye (not to mention brain) take a look.

Best wishes,
Jill



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:45 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME


> Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?

The nasal rounded vowel is sometimes pronounced [oN] and sometimes [uN] in Dakota.  But there's never any contrast between the two.  Omaha merged aN and uN, so even that distinction isn't made in OM.  In their practical orthography they write the merged nasal vowel as "oN", and it's pronounced like  nasal open O, sort of like the vowel in "haunt".
> And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.

I think probably all Siouan languages have a nasal schwa.  As far as I know it is always just a variant of nasal short /aN/.  The corresponding long vowel should be [a] with nasality.


This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Aug 15 16:23:25 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:23:25 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022C83E@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.AUG.2012.162325.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody’s babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't possibly be that old.

> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I’ll send you a copy.

YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are doing.

> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that’s on Jimm’s site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it’s always nice to have someone else’s eye (not to mention brain) take a look.

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Wed Aug 15 17:08:50 2012
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:08:50 -0500
Subject: NAME
Message-ID: <WED.15.AUG.2012.120850.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Jill, 
I'd like to take a look at your grammar sketch too.  
Mark and I need to do one to go with the OP dictionary. It's possible
I'll have some useful comments for you -- I'll do my best! -- but mostly
hope to steal some of your ideas.  

Good luck to your baby boy in college!  Freshman move-in day here is
Friday -- where did the summer go?

Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L."  08/15/12 11:25 AM >>>
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{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}> remember,  those pesky young freshman
are somebody’s babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they
look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.) 

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't
possibly be that old.
 
> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch
in progress,  let me know, and I’ll send you a copy. 



YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about
doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are
doing.



> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that’s
on Jimm’s site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we
change it out again, and it’s always nice to have someone else’s eye
(not to mention brain) take a look. 
 





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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Thu Aug 16 16:14:53 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:14:53 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <502B91520200008E000648D6@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.AUG.2012.161453.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Catherine,

Thanks!  It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I'm trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn't been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I'm stuck without some feedback.

I don't know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

Thanks -  I think it will be okay -  he's in a wing of the dorms devoted to Honors freshmen exclusively, so the geeks can all hang out together and hopefully not get beat up!

I don't know where it went,  but I'm hoping for a rainy fall to bring back some green somewhere.  It was good to see you,  and I sorry I didn't jump in and make it to the early dinner Saturday night.  If I had the nerve to go dancing,  I'd have jumped right in there, but I confess I really don't know how, and was a little worried I'd end up being a "5th wheel." That entire conference I was out of sorts -  running behind on getting my paper together, and not getting it quite to a decent form.  I wish the conference were later in the summer, since that's pretty much my only time for doing any language work.   I love the ideas and folks, but always manage to say more than I should and then spend the drive home feeling I need to apologize to half of my fellow Siouanists :(.   I'm working on the tongue control issue in many aspect of life.

Enough of my blathering.  I have one more syllabus to finish before Monday!

Best,
Jill

P.S.  Our home computer where I wrote this has Vista, and there may be some font issues.
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:09 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Jill,
I'd like to take a look at your grammar sketch too.
Mark and I need to do one to go with the OP dictionary. It's possible I'll have some useful comments for you -- I'll do my best! -- but mostly hope to steal some of your ideas.

Good luck to your baby boy in college!  Freshman move-in day here is Friday -- where did the summer go?

Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 08/15/12 11:25 AM >>>
> remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody's babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't possibly be that old.

> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I'll send you a copy.

YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are doing.

> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that's on Jimm's site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it's always nice to have someone else's eye (not to mention brain) take a look.



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Thu Aug 16 22:17:03 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:17:03 +0000
Subject: sketch
Message-ID: <THU.16.AUG.2012.221703.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Jill,

Thanks for sending that along.

> It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I’m trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn’t been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

You might want to look at Allan Taylor and David Rood's sketch of Lakota in the Handbook, although for the modern reader it would probably have to be diluted a bit more.  Teaching college students beginning Linguistics I about gave up on their knowing any traditional language terminology, even for English.  It's a different world out there from what it was when I grew up in south Georgia back in the 50s.

> Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I’m stuck without some feedback.

I do thinka good inventory of the irregular verbs is important for any relatively complete account of a Siouan language.  There are some very strange conjugations, especially for learners.

> I don’t know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

I hate that outlining system too.

I'll look forward to reading the grammar.

Best,

Bob

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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sun Aug 19 13:22:26 2012
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:22:26 +0100
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2012.142226.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations Jimm,
Bruce

--- On Fri, 10/8/12, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:

From: Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU>
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, 10 August, 2012, 22:26

I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje Jiwere Language Project, “Chiwere Audio Archive Project” is included in the NEH/NSF announcement today.  

Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm
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From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Aug 20 15:36:15 2012
From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus))
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:36:15 +0000
Subject: sketch
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62364363F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2012.153615.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Jill - I got the sketch and will give it a reading (read first part and mostly just had copyediting suggestions - e.g. parallelism in the headings, etc.).  I'm not sure I remember enough Chiwere at this point to be very useful as an informed reviewer, so consider any of my comments more the outsider perspective.  Keep cool.  Pax, Louanna

N. Louanna Furbee
Professor Emerita of Anthropology
University of Missouri
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: sketch

Hi Jill,

Thanks for sending that along.

> It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I’m trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn’t been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

You might want to look at Allan Taylor and David Rood's sketch of Lakota in the Handbook, although for the modern reader it would probably have to be diluted a bit more.  Teaching college students beginning Linguistics I about gave up on their knowing any traditional language terminology, even for English.  It's a different world out there from what it was when I grew up in south Georgia back in the 50s.

> Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I’m stuck without some feedback.

I do thinka good inventory of the irregular verbs is important for any relatively complete account of a Siouan language.  There are some very strange conjugations, especially for learners.

> I don’t know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

I hate that outlining system too.

I'll look forward to reading the grammar.

Best,

Bob

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue Aug 28 03:45:53 2012
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:45:53 -0500
Subject: Caddoan (Pawnee) ree-
Message-ID: <MON.27.AUG.2012.224553.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

I have a question for the Caddoan experts on our list: I notice that the
Pawnee dictionary contains many words beginning with ree-, including the
word for 'corn' reeksu.  I'm wondering if this corn ree- is part of the
root or is/was it a type of prefix?  Can anyone enlighten me on the
possible origin of the word and/or its component parts, if it can be
dissected?

Thanks!

Dave

-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 31 15:25:06 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 10:25:06 -0500
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.102506.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

Thanks
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Fri Aug 31 17:08:59 2012
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:08:59 +0000
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
In-Reply-To: <032C5DBC0D2543BDBCAA595C4ACB2A65@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.170859.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

[Description: http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/ni/opd.03.002.07c.jpg]
http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/images.php?f=ni&page=90

Aloha Jimm,
Here is Dorsey's explanation of the term from the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictioanry slip image.
Best,
Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: August 31, 2012 10:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

Thanks
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 31 18:12:00 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:12:00 -0500
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
In-Reply-To: <B747C96502345B41824E0781057868133E5E2413@BY2PRD0811MB439.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.131200.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Mark!  I have not come across a similar term in IOM.  The fact the JOD uses it in his IOM materials suggests to me that he too, did not find an IOM equivalent.
P.S.  Did you, Catherine or Rory get down to the Dhegiha conference at Quapaw?  If so, what is your assessment as to its worth and potential?



From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland 
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 12:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: DORSEY SLIPS




http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/images.php?f=ni&page=90

 

Aloha Jimm,

Here is Dorsey's explanation of the term from the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictioanry slip image.

Best,

Mark Awakuni-Swetland

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: August 31, 2012 10:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS

 

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

 

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

 

Thanks
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 10 20:17:59 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:17:59 -0500
Subject: NAME
Message-ID: <FRI.10.AUG.2012.151759.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 
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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Fri Aug 10 21:26:21 2012
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:26:21 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
Message-ID: <FRI.10.AUG.2012.162621.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje
Jiwere Language Project, ?Chiwere Audio Archive Project? is included in
the NEH/NSF announcement today.  

Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm

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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Sat Aug 11 06:25:45 2012
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:25:45 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.012545.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Way to go! Y?li w?li s^k?ghe ey?o, kk?ya!

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:
> I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant -- Baxoje
> Jiwere Language Project, ?Chiwere Audio Archive Project? is included in the
> NEH/NSF announcement today.
>
> Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm


From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK  Sat Aug 11 09:02:56 2012
From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 10:02:56 +0100
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.100256.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Great news!

A

>>> Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> 08/10/12 10:29 PM >>>
I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje
Jiwere Language Project, ?Chiwere Audio Archive Project? is included in
the NEH/NSF announcement today.

Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm



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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Aug 11 16:33:46 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:33:46 +0000
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNbBi1-Zc4XQstYaeY7J1cp0BpBLDwRP_p6xV5YhTFt4Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.163346.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Right on, dude!!


From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Aug 11 16:48:12 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:48:12 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <947A963C159047C1895F2B5A5276367F@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.164812.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name ?Wa-to-co-co? meaning something along lines of ?Standing with Staff? or ?Standing with Dancing Staff.?   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU  Sat Aug 11 17:07:40 2012
From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:07:40 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.120740.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wonderful news, Jimm!
Lori

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at wsc.edu> wrote:

> I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant -- Baxoje
> Jiwere Language Project, ?Chiwere Audio Archive Project? is included in the
> NEH/NSF announcement today.
>
> Good news!  Congratulations, Jimm
>



-- 
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
563-387-1283
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Sat Aug 11 21:28:27 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:28:27 -0500
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623642C7A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.AUG.2012.162827.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 


From: Rankin, Robert L. 
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: NAME


The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME


On the 1891 OM census. the name ?Wa-to-co-co? meaning something along lines of ?Standing with Staff? or ?Standing with Dancing Staff.?   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Aug 12 21:22:34 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:22:34 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <D7BE6FA6C98F476D9BFFC3F05AB43B69@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.AUG.2012.212234.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name ?Wa-to-co-co? meaning something along lines of ?Standing with Staff? or ?Standing with Dancing Staff.?   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Mon Aug 13 14:41:30 2012
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:41:30 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623642E86@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.144130.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Aloha All,
Here are a few ramblings to offer.

Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.

Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing...

Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.
To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.
or
The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'
or some other interpretation...?

And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations...?

Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting ...the class of things that continue to stand... but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).

Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.

An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.

Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME
I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: NAME
On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 15:56:10 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:56:10 +0000
Subject: ANOTHER NAME
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.155610.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have a question for the Omaha and Ponca language specialists.  I may have asked it before, but I don?t remember doing so.  Any help would be appreciated by both me and the Osages, one of whose historians has asked me about it.

In the migration stories of the Dhegiha tribes (apparently all but the Quapaws) there is the name of a village where the ancestors of the Omahas, Poncas, Osages and Kaws all dwelt together before they split up and went their separate ways.  The Kaws seemed to think in Dorsey?s time that it was maybe somewhere back towards eastern Missouri.  But the location isn?t what I?m asking about.  In Kaw the name of the place was M?daaxpaye.  In Osage it was M?taaxpa?e.  In Omaha and Ponca that would be M?naaxpa?e or M?daaxpa?e.  To me this name seems to break down into naa-xpa?e which should be a verb meaning roughly ?to burn down?, i.e., to cause to fall down by action of extreme heat.  And then the noun root m?, which should be the root meaning ?soil, earth? that is found in m????kka ?earth?, m?he ?bank, cliff?, m??? ?land?, etc.

So the whole name seems to imply something like ?scorched earth? or some place that burned to the ground.  The fact that all these subgroups of Dhegiha remembered the same name in Dorsey?s time strongly suggests that there was such a place, but I have no access to anyone who speaks Kaw or Osage any more.  So what does this place name mean exactly in Omaha or Ponca??

Bob
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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 19:48:40 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:48:40 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <B747C96502345B41824E0781057868133E5E0815@BY2PRD0811MB439.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.194840.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!

Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.

Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?
And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.

Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?


Jill
Dr. Jill D. Greer
Associate Professor
Social Science Department
MSSU
3950 E. Newman Road
Joplin, MO  64801
417.625.9795
Greer-j at mssu.edu



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Aloha All,
Here are a few ramblings to offer.

Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.

Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing...

Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.
To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.
or
The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'
or some other interpretation...?

And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations...?

Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting ...the class of things that continue to stand... but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).

Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.

An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.

Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]<mailto:[mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]> On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME
I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think?

From: Rankin, Robert L.<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: NAME
On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here.


This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 13 22:11:06 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:11:06 -0500
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022BDD4@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.171106.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Jill for bringing in the phonemic IOM distinction.  I could see a "tun" from Marks suggestions. A "^shun^shun".... perhaps.  

Meanwhile, Thanking you all for the congratulations!  However, while I may have supplied the information and budget justification summary, the real appreciation and thanks goes to Saul Schwartz, who took the bits and pieces of the materials I presented, then he sculpted, and crafted the materials into an award winning composition applying the word mortar as he built it into a convincing request, by spicing the whole with those key words & phrases that the powers need to hear.  Thus, all the applause goes to his end of the room.  I'll wait to accept any pats on the back when the whole project manifests into a published document for easy distribution to all.

Aho!  Jimm


Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!  



Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.  



Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?  

And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.   



Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?





Jill

Dr. Jill D. Greer  

Associate Professor

Social Science Department

MSSU

3950 E. Newman Road

Joplin, MO  64801  

417.625.9795

Greer-j at mssu.edu







From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Aloha All,

Here are a few ramblings to offer.



Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.



Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing.



Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.

To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.

or

The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'

or some other interpretation.?



And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations.?



Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting .the class of things that continue to stand. but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).



Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.



An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.



Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.



Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 



From: Rankin, Robert L. 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: NAME



The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 23:19:07 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (rankin at KU.EDU)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:19:07 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C878FAB5E00F476D9948CA08E6CA8E84@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <MON.13.AUG.2012.231907.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dhegiha oN=uN in Jiwere.

Bob


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jimm G. GoodTracks" <jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Siouan Linguistics <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:11:06 
To: <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: NAME

Thanks, Jill for bringing in the phonemic IOM distinction.  I could see a "tun" from Marks suggestions. A "^shun^shun".... perhaps.  

Meanwhile, Thanking you all for the congratulations!  However, while I may have supplied the information and budget justification summary, the real appreciation and thanks goes to Saul Schwartz, who took the bits and pieces of the materials I presented, then he sculpted, and crafted the materials into an award winning composition applying the word mortar as he built it into a convincing request, by spicing the whole with those key words & phrases that the powers need to hear.  Thus, all the applause goes to his end of the room.  I'll wait to accept any pats on the back when the whole project manifests into a published document for easy distribution to all.

Aho!  Jimm


Hi!
Congrats again to Jimm.  Needless to say,  I can't wait to hear and see the newly available Jiwere stuff!!!  



Mark -  very interesting Omaha version.  Good to remember that much of the meaning may be something that was inferred from the original creation of the name, and that was rendered in the English gloss, rather than having a word-for-word kind of name.  



Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?  

And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.   



Someone better at phonology and historical reconstructions want to jump in here?





Jill

Dr. Jill D. Greer  

Associate Professor

Social Science Department

MSSU

3950 E. Newman Road

Joplin, MO  64801  

417.625.9795

Greer-j at mssu.edu







From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Aloha All,

Here are a few ramblings to offer.



Following on Bob's suggestion that co-co => shoN-shoN.



Consider the Omaha male command 'shoN shoN ga!' that tells someone to continue whatever s/he is/was doing.



Applying the same vowel sound and nasal quality to the preceding syllable makes -to- => ttoN (or) tHoN.

To possess as a charecteristic as buffalo have horns.

or

The standing animate as in uheatHoN => in, linear inanimate, at/on, stand 'bridge, ladder, stairs'

or some other interpretation.?



And the wa- as 'class of' or 'them' or any of its various interpretations.?



Perhaps wa-to-co-co would be rendered in Omaha as wa-tHoN-shoN-shoN suggesting .the class of things that continue to stand. but taking into account the animate tHoN, it could be refering to the person standing with the staff (first option), or the staff itself if considered animate in the manner that the Omaha Sacred Pole is considered animate (second option).



Taking a clue from Jimm's most recent note, he suggested the name may not be specific to a society staff.



An alternate consideration could be that perhaps it is specific to any/all society staffs but not personal staffs or staffs used to lead the buffalo hunt (Omaha), or a referent to a particular society in this group, but the name does not identify it since it has no contextual information.



Perhaps similar to a 19th century Omaha person mentioning the name 'wasabe' in conversation. The discussion had been about the recent meeting of the Bear Doctoring Society, so the term 'wasabe' (the class of black things, i.e. black bear) is a referent specifically of a society and not the animal.



Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: August 12, 2012 4:23 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME



Well, if it's Dorsey's transcription he wouldn't have gotten the vowels wrong.  I don't recognize the name, but I was wondering of the -coco ending was maybe -shoN-shoN?  I don't know if this expression exists in Jiwere or not though, although it is found in all the Dhegiha dialects.

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:28 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

I believe, Bob, this may be Dorsey's transcription.  Weather it is a K ~ Ch ~ Sh sound - the duplication would be unusual.  I would anticipated for "standing" = jida, nayin, dahe.  Possibly, the sound is a "j" and it would be more logical if instead of a "co" it was a "jeje."  There is a verb:  rujijire (walk to and from).  Perhaps it is meant to be: jije.  Then, it would have more of the context of Arrive Standing with Something, which is not specific to a society staff.  What do you think? 



From: Rankin, Robert L. 

Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:48 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: NAME



The name isn't familiar to me.  Do you know how the letter "c" is supposed to be sounded?  Is it a K sound?  Or does it represent "ch" or maybe the "sh" sound it has in the Smithsonian alphabet??

Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jimm G. GoodTracks [jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: NAME

On the 1891 OM census. the name "Wa-to-co-co" meaning something along lines of "Standing with Staff" or "Standing with Dancing Staff."   Among those of you who have worked with the names of Hochank, Kaws, Osage, Ponca/ Omaha, Quapaw, have anyone found a similar name that refers to holding a staff that represents some society?  It is not apparent in the name as documented here. 



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Aug 14 16:44:42 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:44:42 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022BDD4@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.AUG.2012.164442.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


> Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there?s no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?

The nasal rounded vowel is sometimes pronounced [oN] and sometimes [uN] in Dakota.  But there's never any contrast between the two.  Omaha merged aN and uN, so even that distinction isn't made in OM.  In their practical orthography they write the merged nasal vowel as "oN", and it's pronounced like  nasal open O, sort of like the vowel in "haunt".

> And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I?m remembering things correctly.

I think probably all Siouan languages have a nasal schwa.  As far as I know it is always just a variant of nasal short /aN/.  The corresponding long vowel should be [a] with nasality.
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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Tue Aug 14 17:08:58 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:08:58 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236431DE@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.AUG.2012.170858.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks!   For those of you still teaching (or attending) classes this fall,  best wishes on the first hectic, exciting week,  and remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody's babies :).  (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I'll send you a copy.  A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that's on Jimm's site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it's always nice to have someone else's eye (not to mention brain) take a look.

Best wishes,
Jill



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:45 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME


> Bob  and all the other historical folks-  Remember that there's no phonemic nasal O in Jiwere,  so how do those Dhegiha phonemes Mark was pointing out translate into IOM?  Would it be an oral O, or a nasal U?

The nasal rounded vowel is sometimes pronounced [oN] and sometimes [uN] in Dakota.  But there's never any contrast between the two.  Omaha merged aN and uN, so even that distinction isn't made in OM.  In their practical orthography they write the merged nasal vowel as "oN", and it's pronounced like  nasal open O, sort of like the vowel in "haunt".
> And now,  to muddy things up more,  let me add that there are a lot of times where there is a vowel phonetically closer to a nasal schwa to my ear,  but those are usually an underlying An.  But Hamilton and Irvin did occasionally write a nasal O, if I'm remembering things correctly.

I think probably all Siouan languages have a nasal schwa.  As far as I know it is always just a variant of nasal short /aN/.  The corresponding long vowel should be [a] with nasality.


This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Aug 15 16:23:25 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:23:25 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <C5478BD9FFD46A4296C7B2B4EAA3F1C44022C83E@CH1PRD0410MB368.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.AUG.2012.162325.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody?s babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't possibly be that old.

> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I?ll send you a copy.

YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are doing.

> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that?s on Jimm?s site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it?s always nice to have someone else?s eye (not to mention brain) take a look.

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Wed Aug 15 17:08:50 2012
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:08:50 -0500
Subject: NAME
Message-ID: <WED.15.AUG.2012.120850.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Jill, 
I'd like to take a look at your grammar sketch too.  
Mark and I need to do one to go with the OP dictionary. It's possible
I'll have some useful comments for you -- I'll do my best! -- but mostly
hope to steal some of your ideas.  

Good luck to your baby boy in college!  Freshman move-in day here is
Friday -- where did the summer go?

Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L."  08/15/12 11:25 AM >>>
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{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}> remember,  those pesky young freshman
are somebody?s babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they
look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.) 

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't
possibly be that old.
 
> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch
in progress,  let me know, and I?ll send you a copy. 



YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about
doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are
doing.



> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that?s
on Jimm?s site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we
change it out again, and it?s always nice to have someone else?s eye
(not to mention brain) take a look. 
 





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From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU  Thu Aug 16 16:14:53 2012
From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:14:53 +0000
Subject: NAME
In-Reply-To: <502B91520200008E000648D6@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.AUG.2012.161453.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Catherine,

Thanks!  It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I'm trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn't been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I'm stuck without some feedback.

I don't know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

Thanks -  I think it will be okay -  he's in a wing of the dorms devoted to Honors freshmen exclusively, so the geeks can all hang out together and hopefully not get beat up!

I don't know where it went,  but I'm hoping for a rainy fall to bring back some green somewhere.  It was good to see you,  and I sorry I didn't jump in and make it to the early dinner Saturday night.  If I had the nerve to go dancing,  I'd have jumped right in there, but I confess I really don't know how, and was a little worried I'd end up being a "5th wheel." That entire conference I was out of sorts -  running behind on getting my paper together, and not getting it quite to a decent form.  I wish the conference were later in the summer, since that's pretty much my only time for doing any language work.   I love the ideas and folks, but always manage to say more than I should and then spend the drive home feeling I need to apologize to half of my fellow Siouanists :(.   I'm working on the tongue control issue in many aspect of life.

Enough of my blathering.  I have one more syllabus to finish before Monday!

Best,
Jill

P.S.  Our home computer where I wrote this has Vista, and there may be some font issues.
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:09 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: NAME

Jill,
I'd like to take a look at your grammar sketch too.
Mark and I need to do one to go with the OP dictionary. It's possible I'll have some useful comments for you -- I'll do my best! -- but mostly hope to steal some of your ideas.

Good luck to your baby boy in college!  Freshman move-in day here is Friday -- where did the summer go?

Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 08/15/12 11:25 AM >>>
> remember,  those pesky young freshman are somebody's babies

They're all over Lawrence this week buying new T-shirts.  Geez, they look like junior high  kids.

> (My eldest son starts U of Arkansas this year.)

That's simply not possible.  I remember when he was born.  I can't possibly be that old.

> If anyone is seriously interested in commenting on my grammar sketch in progress,  let me know, and I'll send you a copy.

YES, absolutely!  I've never seen it.  Linda and I are thinking about doing a full fledged Kaw grammar.  It would be great to see what you are doing.

> A few corrections and additions have been made to the version that's on Jimm's site now,  but I want to get it in near final form before we change it out again, and it's always nice to have someone else's eye (not to mention brain) take a look.



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Thu Aug 16 22:17:03 2012
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:17:03 +0000
Subject: sketch
Message-ID: <THU.16.AUG.2012.221703.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Jill,

Thanks for sending that along.

> It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I?m trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn?t been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

You might want to look at Allan Taylor and David Rood's sketch of Lakota in the Handbook, although for the modern reader it would probably have to be diluted a bit more.  Teaching college students beginning Linguistics I about gave up on their knowing any traditional language terminology, even for English.  It's a different world out there from what it was when I grew up in south Georgia back in the 50s.

> Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I?m stuck without some feedback.

I do thinka good inventory of the irregular verbs is important for any relatively complete account of a Siouan language.  There are some very strange conjugations, especially for learners.

> I don?t know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

I hate that outlining system too.

I'll look forward to reading the grammar.

Best,

Bob

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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sun Aug 19 13:22:26 2012
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:22:26 +0100
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
In-Reply-To: <5025362D0200008E00064169@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.AUG.2012.142226.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations Jimm,
Bruce

--- On Fri, 10/8/12, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:

From: Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU>
Subject: Congratulations to Jimm
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, 10 August, 2012, 22:26

I just saw that Jimm Goodtracks has been awarded a DEL grant --  Baxoje Jiwere Language Project, ?Chiwere Audio Archive Project? is included in the NEH/NSF announcement today.? 

Good news!? Congratulations, Jimm
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From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Aug 20 15:36:15 2012
From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus))
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:36:15 +0000
Subject: sketch
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62364363F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.AUG.2012.153615.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Jill - I got the sketch and will give it a reading (read first part and mostly just had copyediting suggestions - e.g. parallelism in the headings, etc.).  I'm not sure I remember enough Chiwere at this point to be very useful as an informed reviewer, so consider any of my comments more the outsider perspective.  Keep cool.  Pax, Louanna

N. Louanna Furbee
Professor Emerita of Anthropology
University of Missouri
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:17 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: sketch

Hi Jill,

Thanks for sending that along.

> It truly is a draft still.  The thing that will be clear from the get go is that I?m trying make it for the native community,  not for the professionals.  So it may be a little annoying to have my attempts to teach a few terms,  and there may be better ways to explain things than I have done so far.  And my hope of having an annotated text with the digital file to accompany it frame by frame hasn?t been realized yet,  so the appendix is empty.  The papers I gave at WhiteCloud and Lincoln are the texts referenced there.

You might want to look at Allan Taylor and David Rood's sketch of Lakota in the Handbook, although for the modern reader it would probably have to be diluted a bit more.  Teaching college students beginning Linguistics I about gave up on their knowing any traditional language terminology, even for English.  It's a different world out there from what it was when I grew up in south Georgia back in the 50s.

> Also,  I have not put in the consonant clusters (it will be a tedious chore) in the phonology section.  Is that really necessary for this kind of document?  And representing the irregular verb paradigms is another chore not finished.  But,  I think I?m stuck without some feedback.

I do thinka good inventory of the irregular verbs is important for any relatively complete account of a Siouan language.  There are some very strange conjugations, especially for learners.

> I don?t know there are too many ideas to steal,  other than dropping the standard IJAL outline that I really hate.  I just could not keep doing the 1.1.a stuff :).

I hate that outlining system too.

I'll look forward to reading the grammar.

Best,

Bob

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue Aug 28 03:45:53 2012
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:45:53 -0500
Subject: Caddoan (Pawnee) ree-
Message-ID: <MON.27.AUG.2012.224553.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

I have a question for the Caddoan experts on our list: I notice that the
Pawnee dictionary contains many words beginning with ree-, including the
word for 'corn' reeksu.  I'm wondering if this corn ree- is part of the
root or is/was it a type of prefix?  Can anyone enlighten me on the
possible origin of the word and/or its component parts, if it can be
dissected?

Thanks!

Dave

-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 31 15:25:06 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 10:25:06 -0500
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.102506.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

Thanks
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Fri Aug 31 17:08:59 2012
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:08:59 +0000
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
In-Reply-To: <032C5DBC0D2543BDBCAA595C4ACB2A65@JGLaptop>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.170859.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

[Description: http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/dictionary_images/ni/opd.03.002.07c.jpg]
http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/images.php?f=ni&page=90

Aloha Jimm,
Here is Dorsey's explanation of the term from the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictioanry slip image.
Best,
Mark Awakuni-Swetland

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: August 31, 2012 10:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

Thanks
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Fri Aug 31 18:12:00 2012
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:12:00 -0500
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS
In-Reply-To: <B747C96502345B41824E0781057868133E5E2413@BY2PRD0811MB439.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.AUG.2012.131200.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Mark!  I have not come across a similar term in IOM.  The fact the JOD uses it in his IOM materials suggests to me that he too, did not find an IOM equivalent.
P.S.  Did you, Catherine or Rory get down to the Dhegiha conference at Quapaw?  If so, what is your assessment as to its worth and potential?



From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland 
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 12:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: DORSEY SLIPS




http://omahalanguage.unl.edu/images.php?f=ni&page=90

 

Aloha Jimm,

Here is Dorsey's explanation of the term from the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictioanry slip image.

Best,

Mark Awakuni-Swetland

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: August 31, 2012 10:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: DORSEY SLIPS

 

On the IOM Dorsey vocabulary slips/ Clan information, JOD has written the name of a person with their associated clan.  However in some cases, he writes after the name the following:  "a nikie name."

 

Perhaps, Mark who has more recent than anyone worked with the JOD mnscpts, understand this notation.  It is not comprehensible from IOM language.

 

Thanks
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