From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Aug 12 15:54:11 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 15:54:11 +0000 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520902F1.4020905@usask.ca> Message-ID: Yes - I came across a reference to this just a little before! A Fascinating book, and well deserved! Elf mubrak- Anthony -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mary C Marino Sent: 12 August 2013 16:45 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce! This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From mary.marino at USASK.CA Mon Aug 12 15:44:49 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:44:49 -0600 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Message-ID: Congratulations, Bruce! This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Aug 12 19:55:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:55:03 +0000 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <62b06547e08e446385d404b8feac633c@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Congratulations, Bruce. Three cheers! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:05:14 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:05:14 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <62b06547e08e446385d404b8feac633c@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Anthony, Bruce ________________________________ From: Anthony Grant To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 16:54 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Yes - I came across a reference to this just a little before!  A Fascinating book, and well deserved! Elf mubrak- Anthony -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mary C Marino Sent: 12 August 2013 16:45 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce!  This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:05:40 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:05:40 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236EC95D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Bob, Bruce ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L." To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 20:55 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce.  Three cheers! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Aug 13 16:12:44 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:12:44 -0500 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Message-ID: Let me add my congratulations to the pile -- Sounds like a book worth checking out, and a well-deserved honor! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:26:57 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:26:57 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520A14AB0200008E000935E7@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Catherine, Bruce ________________________________ From: Catherine Rudin To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 17:12 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Let me add my congratulations to the pile -- Sounds like a book worth checking out, and a well-deserved honor! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Wed Aug 14 03:34:17 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:34:17 -0600 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236EC95D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Bruce, congratulations and well deserved. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Congratulations, Bruce. Three cheers! > > Bob > > From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 18:03:53 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Message-ID: This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, page 109.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1204162 bytes Desc: Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, page 109.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:48:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 19:48:03 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Bryan has the right idea. It occurs to me that I may have actually written that passage you attached from HNAI. I can't remember for sure without going out to the garage and looking it up. John Koontz has studied all the variant forms of Saganash and may have actually written a paper on it. He'd probably be happy to share his full analysis with you if you get in touch with him. The address I have is: jekoontz at msn.com or his work address at: koontz at boulder.nist.gov. Tell him I sent you. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Bryan James Gordon [linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, "Zhaaganaash" [žaːgənaːš] is Ojibwe for "English / Scottish / white". It's neat to find out this stem is attested in so many Siouan languages. Your puzzle might be cleared up if we speculate that the form passed through Algonquian before it got to Siouan. This is because Ojibwe (and other closely related languages) don't have an /l/ (so it became /n/), and don't have C+n clusters (so it got an extra vowel). Also, this is the ordinary word for English people in Ojibwe, whereas its cousin in Otoe and Omaha is not the most common word for them. But that's just speculation, since I'm not familiar with the historical record on this stem. Anybody else? Bryan 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Aug 20 20:49:16 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:49:16 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:33:36 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 12:33:36 -0700 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, "Zhaaganaash" [žaːgənaːš] is Ojibwe for "English / Scottish / white". It's neat to find out this stem is attested in so many Siouan languages. Your puzzle might be cleared up if we speculate that the form passed through Algonquian before it got to Siouan. This is because Ojibwe (and other closely related languages) don't have an /l/ (so it became /n/), and don't have C+n clusters (so it got an extra vowel). Also, this is the ordinary word for English people in Ojibwe, whereas its cousin in Otoe and Omaha is not the most common word for them. But that's just speculation, since I'm not familiar with the historical record on this stem. Anybody else? Bryan 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.**** > > ** ** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > ** ** > > I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from > Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > “Englishman.” Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is “ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ‘the > English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” > (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.**** > > ** ** > > Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > “sahng-gah-nash.”**** > > ** ** > > No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s > anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)*s ang*lois” > in “*Sang*anasch” (underlined parts).**** > > ** ** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how > “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.**** > > ** ** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > ** ** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > ** ** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for > “Englishman.”**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > ­­ > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:34:13 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 19:34:13 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 21:08:50 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:08:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks like I’m not the only one who has tackled this term! I’m starting to get a mental picture of the route taken by this term before it finally got to the Otoe-Missourias. Bob, I’ll take your suggestion and contact John Koontz. I always feel better when I see how something works rather than just accepting that it does. Rory, The term “Sanganasch” was gathered by Prince Maximilian sometime between 1832-34. That’s pretty close to your 1812. Dorsey’s term of “ra-kra-she” was probably gathered post 1880. But not too long after that I would think. There was another guy named “Nar-ge-ga-rash” who signed the Ioway treaty of 1854. His name was translated as “British” on that treaty. He was also listed (with no translation) on the 1861 Ioway treaty as “Nag-ga-rash.” Thanks for the responses! Good stuff! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 21:11:16 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:11:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Aug 20 21:30:16 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:30:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA097F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both > “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria).**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > Hi Sky,**** > > ** ** > > I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more > Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did:**** > > ** ** > > French: les anglois > l e s a n g l oi s**** > > ** ** > > Micmac: aĝalasiew > a ĝ a l a s iew**** > > aglasiew > a g l a s iew**** > > ** ** > > Cree: aakayaasimowin > aa k a y aa s imowin**** > > ** ** > > Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) > zh aa g a n aa sh (i)**** > > ** ** > > ` Otoe: sanganasch > s a n g a n a sch**** > > ra-kra-she > r a k r a sh e**** > > ** ** > > If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as > a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that > a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a > sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering.**** > > ** ** > > I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” > versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or > is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from > the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so > similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. > Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the > sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess > that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, > when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad > alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the > British.**** > > ** ** > > Welcome to the list!**** > > ** ** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.**** > > ** ** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > ** ** > > I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from > Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > “Englishman.” Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is “ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ‘the > English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” > (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.**** > > ** ** > > Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > “sahng-gah-nash.”**** > > ** ** > > No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s > anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)*s ang*lois” > in “*Sang*anasch” (underlined parts).**** > > ** ** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how > “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.**** > > ** ** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > ** ** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > ** ** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for > “Englishman.”**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > > ­­ **** > > ­­ > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Aug 20 22:00:47 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 22:00:47 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep, and the Ioways were known to have made it up to Quebec at some point, my memory is fuzzy at this point on the source, but it was a military venture, so it has to be 1812 or even earlier - French and Indian, or Revolutionary (chronologically out of order, sorry). Yet another occasion for needing a name for Englishmen aside from the fur trade and the Hudson Bay Company, of course. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ ­­ -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Wed Aug 21 10:43:28 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 10:43:28 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: I presented a paper on this at the Siouan-Caddoan conference (I think) in 1995. I’ll scan the handout I did in and send it to the list as an attachment tom orrow. Rory has a few forms I didn’;t get but I got quite a few. Best Anthony From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: 20 August 2013 23:01 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Yep, and the Ioways were known to have made it up to Quebec at some point, my memory is fuzzy at this point on the source, but it was a military venture, so it has to be 1812 or even earlier - French and Indian, or Revolutionary (chronologically out of order, sorry). Yet another occasion for needing a name for Englishmen aside from the fur trade and the Hudson Bay Company, of course. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ ­­ -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. 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URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Aug 21 16:41:06 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:41:06 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237007B6@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Aug 21 21:09:09 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:09:09 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory, Yes, I’ve checked his spellings versus modern pronunciations and his “s” does in fact seem to be an “s” and he seems to use “sch” for “sh”. His German perspective means he was very good about pointing out that his “ch” spellings were “guttural as German” (which today we use the “x” for that). Many sources (Hamilton, Merrill, etc.) use the “h” for that but don’t distinguish the regular “h” from what should be the “x”. This may also be of interest. I was going through the 1860 Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation list and I saw the name “Lag-gar-ash” with no translation. This looks like the same term. The names on this list look to be (according to Rev. Isaac McCoy) Otoe, Ioway, Omaha, and Sioux. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 21:18:10 2013 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:18:10 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says: "The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago. Chief Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to maintaining peace between the Native Americans and the settlers." http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson wrote: > Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of > this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and > plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant > before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t > have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which > might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the > recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a > completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they > adopted.**** > > ** ** > > Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to > check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at > the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended > by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is > generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or > ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based > on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + > vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the > modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation > better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native > language like Ojibwe.**** > > ** ** > > Regards,**** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rankin, Robert L. > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > Hi Sky, > > > I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It > would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current > in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's > left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and > the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the > name has approximately the following correspondences: > > > s a n g a n a sh > les a n g l wa s or > les a n g l we s > > The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting > more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages > didn't take the term directly from French. > > Bob**** > > ------------------------------ > > This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. **** > > **** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > **** > > I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from > Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > “Englishman.” Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is “ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ‘the > English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” > (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.**** > > **** > > Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > “sahng-gah-nash.”**** > > **** > > No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s > anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)*s ang*lois” > in “*Sang*anasch” (underlined parts).**** > > **** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how > “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.**** > > **** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > **** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > **** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for > “Englishman.”**** > > **** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.***** > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > **** > > > ­­ **** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 22 00:34:42 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 19:34:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0BF8@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: It is the same name. The early English translation was "Brittish" but later on, on the enrollments, it is rendered as "English." I believe the name then died out. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory, Yes, I’ve checked his spellings versus modern pronunciations and his “s” does in fact seem to be an “s” and he seems to use “sch” for “sh”. His German perspective means he was very good about pointing out that his “ch” spellings were “guttural as German” (which today we use the “x” for that). Many sources (Hamilton, Merrill, etc.) use the “h” for that but don’t distinguish the regular “h” from what should be the “x”. This may also be of interest. I was going through the 1860 Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation list and I saw the name “Lag-gar-ash” with no translation. This looks like the same term. The names on this list look to be (according to Rev. Isaac McCoy) Otoe, Ioway, Omaha, and Sioux. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 22 03:00:16 2013 From: jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM (Jamie Carpenter) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 21:00:16 -0600 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. > > I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. > > Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” > > No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” > > Sky Campbell, B. A. > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Aug 22 21:39:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 21:39:10 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks George, I remember seeing that while driving around that area during the conference a couple of years ago. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of George Wilmes [george.wilmes at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says: "The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago. Chief Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to maintaining peace between the Native Americans and the settlers." http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson > wrote: Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Aug 22 22:00:25 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 22:00:25 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? Yes, I'd say that's possible, even probable. The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. > Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? It's hard to be sure. There are plenty of German dialects in which "S" is still rendered as [s]. Moreover, Maximilian was cognizant of the problems in rendering Indian languages phonetically, and he made special efforts to standardize his notation. I did a long study of his Siouan vocabularies in the new edition of his Journals from the Joslyn Museum in Omaha (which has the paintings from his expedition done by Bodmer). Generally, Max's notation is easy to interpret. > Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Actually, I think Ojibwe may have the voiced pronunciation, but I may be mistaken. Haven't checked. Anthony may have included it in his mail. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 14:40:06 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:40:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jamie, to be honest, I don’t know. It is definitely close enough to catch my attention (as it did yours). Especially because of your mention of it being derogatory which my friend suggested with “sale ganache.” Jimm, thanks for the confirmation on “Lag-gar-ash.” It sure stood out to me but I wanted to be sure I wasn’t seeing something I wanted to see. George, I did a quick search on that individual (Billy Caldwell) and it seems he was half Pottawatomi (Algonquian language). It is fascinating to sort of see the route this name took through the decades. I am slowly getting my mind wrapped around Bob’s matching of Sanganasch to “les anglois” but I think I am getting a feel for it. It is taking some time for me to get used to the changes but that is part of the fun ☺. I am very anxious to see John Koontz’s information on this term. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jamie Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" > wrote: This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 15:28:04 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:28:04 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0E88@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: While I have enjoyed the discussion and particularly liked 'sale ganache' "dirty mug", I think the explanation in terms of Middle French 'les anglois' is pretty well established. And although it was no doubt passed from tribe to tribe via several native languages, it is probably that French traders also helped spread the term. "Dirty mug" or "dirty faces" isn't too far off from the origin of Desmoines though. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:40 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Jamie, to be honest, I don’t know. It is definitely close enough to catch my attention (as it did yours). Especially because of your mention of it being derogatory which my friend suggested with “sale ganache.” Jimm, thanks for the confirmation on “Lag-gar-ash.” It sure stood out to me but I wanted to be sure I wasn’t seeing something I wanted to see. George, I did a quick search on that individual (Billy Caldwell) and it seems he was half Pottawatomi (Algonquian language). It is fascinating to sort of see the route this name took through the decades. I am slowly getting my mind wrapped around Bob’s matching of Sanganasch to “les anglois” but I think I am getting a feel for it. It is taking some time for me to get used to the changes but that is part of the fun ☺. I am very anxious to see John Koontz’s information on this term. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jamie Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" > wrote: This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.” No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Fri Aug 23 17:14:42 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 17:14:42 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Message-ID: Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sanganash2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 265587 bytes Desc: sanganash2.pdf URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sanganash1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 276915 bytes Desc: sanganash1.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 20:53:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:53:34 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <6d4e7d02d64948dfb116f94f83881c7f@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Anthony we have basically the last and most authoritative word on Saganash and its cousins in Colonial North America. Just a quick note on the Osage . I assume this represents an attempt to render something like mi gráša or mį gráša using English spelling conventions. Mi, in this instance, appears to be 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). I'd have expected wį in Osage for 'one', but a mishearing as mi isn't out of the question. The term could also have been borrowed into Osage from Kaw just to the North. In any event, the use of 'one' as a head noun in this case follows Dhegiha naming practice, even though it follows the noun when it functions as an indefinite article. So mį gráša is '(some)one English', whereas gráša-mi would be 'an English something-or-other' or 'English woman'. Bob > Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 20:57:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:57:58 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370336D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Oh, and thanks to Anathony we have a nice little notice to NSA and GCHQ who are protecting us from terrorism by monitoring the Siouan Listserve. Thanks for your service, guys! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Aug 23 21:03:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:03:08 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237033B8@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: So does that mean we have to start adding "Just kidding!" to the end of all our messages? Or is that just for the political bloggers? :) Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 3:58 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Oh, and thanks to Anathony we have a nice little notice to NSA and GCHQ who are protecting us from terrorism by monitoring the Siouan Listserve. Thanks for your service, guys! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 21:06:47 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:06:47 -0500 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370336D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Wow, Bob. That gives me another way to look at the Otoe-Missouria term for raccoon. If I’d seen that name “Mi-dayinga” without seeing a translation for “furious one” but saw a reference to a Raccoon clan, from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, I would have assumed that “Mi-dayinga” might translate to Little Raccoon since in Otoe-Missouria it would be Minkeinge (minke + -inge). This may open up a possibility of translating our term “minke” (meeng-KAY) by giving us a peek at its possible descriptive meaning beyond simply “raccoon” (IE what that term is actually saying/describing). And I am also curious if the similar term “minke” (MEENG-kay) (notice the change in stress there) which means true/correct might be affected as well. As of right now, I have no idea if those terms are similar just because they are or if they are related. PS: I am liking this list VERY much! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 3:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Thanks to Anthony we have basically the last and most authoritative word on Saganash and its cousins in Colonial North America. Just a quick note on the Osage . I assume this represents an attempt to render something like mi gráša or mį gráša using English spelling conventions. Mi, in this instance, appears to be 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). I'd have expected wį in Osage for 'one', but a mishearing as mi isn't out of the question. The term could also have been borrowed into Osage from Kaw just to the North. In any event, the use of 'one' as a head noun in this case follows Dhegiha naming practice, even though it follows the noun when it functions as an indefinite article. So mį gráša is '(some)one English', whereas gráša-mi would be 'an English something-or-other' or 'English woman'. Bob > Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 21:10:50 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <6d4e7d02d64948dfb116f94f83881c7f@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thank you!! Gives me a lot of starting points to start digging! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 21:39:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:39:58 +0000 Subject: CORRECTION on Osage "me-gra-sha". Message-ID: A further note on the Osage . I assumed this represents an attempt to render mį gráša using English spelling conventions. Mi, as noted, is 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). The rest, written gra-sha, doesn't represent [graša] but [greše], in acccordance with aforementioned English rules of spelling/pronunciation. N.B. that this matches the attested Kaw term exactly. I had neglected to consult my own Kaw dictionary where "Englishman" is given as [migreše] (obtained from 19th cent. materials). Sorry for the mixup. Also, the Kaw personal name, Mi-dayinga 'furious one', although it supposedly refers to someone of the Raccoon clan, doesn't contain any overt reference to 'raccoon'. Raccoon is mikka in Kaw, but the mi at the beginning is coincidental and the mi of mi-dayinga is the mi of mixci 'one'. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Fri Aug 23 21:41:25 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:41:25 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0FD0@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Glad to be of help! It's a word which has long intrigued me. Anthony ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Campbell, Sky Sent: 23 August 2013 21:10 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Thank you!! Gives me a lot of starting points to start digging! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:10:23 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 17:10:23 +0000 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Message-ID: Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the name was based on the Indian name for ‘British’ that we have just recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of phonemes). I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of the bar’s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of the name. Oh shit. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:14:58 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:14:58 -0700 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623703A05@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ‘British’ that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar’s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:27:03 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:27:03 -0500 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Message-ID: Great story -- made my day :-) >>> Marianne Mithun 08/24/13 12:16 PM >>> Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ‘British’ that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar’s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Aug 24 22:30:39 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 17:30:39 -0500 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623703A05@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: LOL! Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the name was based on the Indian name for 'British' that we have just recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of phonemes). I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of the bar's name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of the name. Oh shit. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sat Aug 24 22:46:57 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 22:46:57 +0000 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great story, Bob - you wouldn't be the first linguist to jump to a wrong conclusion in precisely that way! Anthony ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Marianne Mithun Sent: 24 August 2013 17:14 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ‘British’ that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar’s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Aug 24 23:27:58 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 00:27:58 +0100 Subject: A similar misunderstanding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Bob, I remember on my first trip to Persia I travelled by car via the then Yugoslavia and stayed about a week in Belgrade.  There I was mystified by often seeing some tall muscular blonde long haired and bearded men travelling on the bus like me, who looked very different from the average Yugoslav of the day.  I wondered who these people could be and with my rudimentary knowledge of the history of the region (I was only 19 at the time) I came to the conclusion that they must be Macedonians, possibly Macedonian nomads (do they exist?).  Eventually being satisfied with this conclusion, but wishing, as they say nowadays 'to reach closure' and I asked someone if they had seen these people and they said 'Oh yes I know them.  They are extras working on a film about the Vikings.'   Still Macedonian nomads wasn't too bad at that age. Bruce ________________________________ From: Anthony Grant To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 23:46 Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Great story, Bob - you wouldn't be the first linguist to jump to a wrong conclusion in precisely that way! Anthony ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Marianne Mithun Sent: 24 August 2013 17:14 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga.  A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town.  I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ‘British’ that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar’s name.  Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Aug 31 10:08:41 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 11:08:41 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520902F1.4020905@usask.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Mary Bruce ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 16:44 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce!  This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Aug 12 15:54:11 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 15:54:11 +0000 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520902F1.4020905@usask.ca> Message-ID: Yes - I came across a reference to this just a little before! A Fascinating book, and well deserved! Elf mubrak- Anthony -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mary C Marino Sent: 12 August 2013 16:45 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce! This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From mary.marino at USASK.CA Mon Aug 12 15:44:49 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:44:49 -0600 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Message-ID: Congratulations, Bruce! This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Aug 12 19:55:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:55:03 +0000 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <62b06547e08e446385d404b8feac633c@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Congratulations, Bruce. Three cheers! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:05:14 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:05:14 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <62b06547e08e446385d404b8feac633c@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Anthony, Bruce ________________________________ From: Anthony Grant To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 16:54 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Yes - I came across a reference to this just a little before!? A Fascinating book, and well deserved! Elf mubrak- Anthony -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mary C Marino Sent: 12 August 2013 16:45 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce!? This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:05:40 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:05:40 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236EC95D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Bob, Bruce ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L." To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 20:55 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce.? Three cheers! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Aug 13 16:12:44 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:12:44 -0500 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Message-ID: Let me add my congratulations to the pile -- Sounds like a book worth checking out, and a well-deserved honor! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Aug 13 16:26:57 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:26:57 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520A14AB0200008E000935E7@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Catherine, Bruce ________________________________ From: Catherine Rudin To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 17:12 Subject: Re: tribute to Bruce Ingham Let me add my congratulations to the pile -- Sounds like a book worth checking out, and a well-deserved honor! Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Wed Aug 14 03:34:17 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:34:17 -0600 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236EC95D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Bruce, congratulations and well deserved. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Congratulations, Bruce. Three cheers! > > Bob > > From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 18:03:53 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Message-ID: This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, page 109.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1204162 bytes Desc: Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, page 109.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:48:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 19:48:03 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Bryan has the right idea. It occurs to me that I may have actually written that passage you attached from HNAI. I can't remember for sure without going out to the garage and looking it up. John Koontz has studied all the variant forms of Saganash and may have actually written a paper on it. He'd probably be happy to share his full analysis with you if you get in touch with him. The address I have is: jekoontz at msn.com or his work address at: koontz at boulder.nist.gov. Tell him I sent you. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Bryan James Gordon [linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, "Zhaaganaash" [z?a?g?na?s?] is Ojibwe for "English / Scottish / white". It's neat to find out this stem is attested in so many Siouan languages. Your puzzle might be cleared up if we speculate that the form passed through Algonquian before it got to Siouan. This is because Ojibwe (and other closely related languages) don't have an /l/ (so it became /n/), and don't have C+n clusters (so it got an extra vowel). Also, this is the ordinary word for English people in Ojibwe, whereas its cousin in Otoe and Omaha is not the most common word for them. But that's just speculation, since I'm not familiar with the historical record on this stem. Anybody else? Bryan 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Aug 20 20:49:16 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:49:16 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: a?alasiew a ? a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:33:36 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 12:33:36 -0700 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, "Zhaaganaash" [z?a?g?na?s?] is Ojibwe for "English / Scottish / white". It's neat to find out this stem is attested in so many Siouan languages. Your puzzle might be cleared up if we speculate that the form passed through Algonquian before it got to Siouan. This is because Ojibwe (and other closely related languages) don't have an /l/ (so it became /n/), and don't have C+n clusters (so it got an extra vowel). Also, this is the ordinary word for English people in Ojibwe, whereas its cousin in Otoe and Omaha is not the most common word for them. But that's just speculation, since I'm not familiar with the historical record on this stem. Anybody else? Bryan 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself.**** > > ** ** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > ** ** > > I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from > Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is ?ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ?the > English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? > (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc.**** > > ** ** > > Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > ?sahng-gah-nash.?**** > > ** ** > > No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s > anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)*s ang*lois? > in ?*Sang*anasch? (underlined parts).**** > > ** ** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how > ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well.**** > > ** ** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > ** ** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > ** ** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for > ?Englishman.?**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > ?? > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Aug 20 19:34:13 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 19:34:13 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 21:08:50 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:08:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks like I?m not the only one who has tackled this term! I?m starting to get a mental picture of the route taken by this term before it finally got to the Otoe-Missourias. Bob, I?ll take your suggestion and contact John Koontz. I always feel better when I see how something works rather than just accepting that it does. Rory, The term ?Sanganasch? was gathered by Prince Maximilian sometime between 1832-34. That?s pretty close to your 1812. Dorsey?s term of ?ra-kra-she? was probably gathered post 1880. But not too long after that I would think. There was another guy named ?Nar-ge-ga-rash? who signed the Ioway treaty of 1854. His name was translated as ?British? on that treaty. He was also listed (with no translation) on the 1861 Ioway treaty as ?Nag-ga-rash.? Thanks for the responses! Good stuff! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: a?alasiew a ? a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Aug 20 21:11:16 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:11:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both ?Sanganasch? and ?ra-kra-she? are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: a?alasiew a ? a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Aug 20 21:30:16 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:30:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA097F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both > ?Sanganasch? and ?ra-kra-she? are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria).**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > Hi Sky,**** > > ** ** > > I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more > Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did:**** > > ** ** > > French: les anglois > l e s a n g l oi s**** > > ** ** > > Micmac: a?alasiew > a ? a l a s iew**** > > aglasiew > a g l a s iew**** > > ** ** > > Cree: aakayaasimowin > aa k a y aa s imowin**** > > ** ** > > Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) > zh aa g a n aa sh (i)**** > > ** ** > > ` Otoe: sanganasch > s a n g a n a sch**** > > ra-kra-she > r a k r a sh e**** > > ** ** > > If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as > a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that > a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a > sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering.**** > > ** ** > > I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? > versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or > is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from > the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so > similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. > Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the > sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess > that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, > when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad > alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the > British.**** > > ** ** > > Welcome to the list!**** > > ** ** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself.**** > > ** ** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > ** ** > > I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from > Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is ?ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ?the > English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? > (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc.**** > > ** ** > > Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > ?sahng-gah-nash.?**** > > ** ** > > No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s > anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)*s ang*lois? > in ?*Sang*anasch? (underlined parts).**** > > ** ** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how > ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well.**** > > ** ** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > ** ** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > ** ** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for > ?Englishman.?**** > > ** ** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > ** ** > > > ?? **** > > ?? > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue Aug 20 22:00:47 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 22:00:47 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep, and the Ioways were known to have made it up to Quebec at some point, my memory is fuzzy at this point on the source, but it was a military venture, so it has to be 1812 or even earlier - French and Indian, or Revolutionary (chronologically out of order, sorry). Yet another occasion for needing a name for Englishmen aside from the fur trade and the Hudson Bay Company, of course. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both ?Sanganasch? and ?ra-kra-she? are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: a?alasiew a ? a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? ?? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Wed Aug 21 10:43:28 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 10:43:28 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: I presented a paper on this at the Siouan-Caddoan conference (I think) in 1995. I?ll scan the handout I did in and send it to the list as an attachment tom orrow. Rory has a few forms I didn?;t get but I got quite a few. Best Anthony From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: 20 August 2013 23:01 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Yep, and the Ioways were known to have made it up to Quebec at some point, my memory is fuzzy at this point on the source, but it was a military venture, so it has to be 1812 or even earlier - French and Indian, or Revolutionary (chronologically out of order, sorry). Yet another occasion for needing a name for Englishmen aside from the fur trade and the Hudson Bay Company, of course. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit. 2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky > Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both ?Sanganasch? and ?ra-kra-she? are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I?ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did: French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s Micmac: a?alasiew a ? a l a s iew aglasiew a g l a s iew Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i) ` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e If languages didn?t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering. I?m not quite clear from your description what language these ?Otoe? versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it?s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British. Welcome to the list! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? ?? -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Aug 21 16:41:06 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:41:06 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237007B6@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or z?gana?? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Aug 21 21:09:09 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:09:09 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory, Yes, I?ve checked his spellings versus modern pronunciations and his ?s? does in fact seem to be an ?s? and he seems to use ?sch? for ?sh?. His German perspective means he was very good about pointing out that his ?ch? spellings were ?guttural as German? (which today we use the ?x? for that). Many sources (Hamilton, Merrill, etc.) use the ?h? for that but don?t distinguish the regular ?h? from what should be the ?x?. This may also be of interest. I was going through the 1860 Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation list and I saw the name ?Lag-gar-ash? with no translation. This looks like the same term. The names on this list look to be (according to Rev. Isaac McCoy) Otoe, Ioway, Omaha, and Sioux. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Bob, I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or z?gana?? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 21:18:10 2013 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:18:10 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says: "The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago. Chief Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to maintaining peace between the Native Americans and the settlers." http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson wrote: > Bob, I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of > this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and > plural? The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant > before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t > have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which > might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the > recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a > completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they > adopted.**** > > ** ** > > Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to > check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at > the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended > by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is > generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or > z?gana?? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based > on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + > vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the > modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation > better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native > language like Ojibwe.**** > > ** ** > > Regards,**** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rankin, Robert L. > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"**** > > ** ** > > Hi Sky, > > > I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It > would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current > in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's > left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and > the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the > name has approximately the following correspondences: > > > s a n g a n a sh > les a n g l wa s or > les a n g l we s > > The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting > more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages > didn't take the term directly from French. > > Bob**** > > ------------------------------ > > This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. **** > > **** > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the > Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve > come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical > information, and recording tribal members.**** > > **** > > I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from > Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as > ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. > 13*, says it is ?ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ?the > English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this > list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other > tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? > (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc.**** > > **** > > Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as > ?sahng-gah-nash.?**** > > **** > > No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s > anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)*s ang*lois? > in ?*Sang*anasch? (underlined parts).**** > > **** > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally > from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how > ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent > in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might > be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty > face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering > terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along > the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an > ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there > isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers > that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or > contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well.**** > > **** > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be > very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe > Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation > for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in > use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like > its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes > had a similar term.**** > > **** > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, > any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of > ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I > am getting close.**** > > **** > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for > ?Englishman.?**** > > **** > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.***** > > Language Director**** > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe**** > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111**** > > sky at omtribe.org**** > > **** > > > ?? **** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 22 00:34:42 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 19:34:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0BF8@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: It is the same name. The early English translation was "Brittish" but later on, on the enrollments, it is rendered as "English." I believe the name then died out. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Rory, Yes, I?ve checked his spellings versus modern pronunciations and his ?s? does in fact seem to be an ?s? and he seems to use ?sch? for ?sh?. His German perspective means he was very good about pointing out that his ?ch? spellings were ?guttural as German? (which today we use the ?x? for that). Many sources (Hamilton, Merrill, etc.) use the ?h? for that but don?t distinguish the regular ?h? from what should be the ?x?. This may also be of interest. I was going through the 1860 Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation list and I saw the name ?Lag-gar-ash? with no translation. This looks like the same term. The names on this list look to be (according to Rev. Isaac McCoy) Otoe, Ioway, Omaha, and Sioux. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Bob, I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or z?gana?? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 22 03:00:16 2013 From: jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM (Jamie Carpenter) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 21:00:16 -0600 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA08D5@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. > > My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. > > I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. > > Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? > > No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). > > So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. > > I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. > > So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. > > Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? > > Sky Campbell, B. A. > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Aug 22 21:39:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 21:39:10 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks George, I remember seeing that while driving around that area during the conference a couple of years ago. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of George Wilmes [george.wilmes at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says: "The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago. Chief Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to maintaining peace between the Native Americans and the settlers." http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson > wrote: Bob, I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or z?gana?? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Regards, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Hi Sky, I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences: s a n g a n a sh les a n g l wa s or les a n g l we s The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly from French. Bob ________________________________ This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Aug 22 22:00:25 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 22:00:25 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I?m wondering if the difference between the ?S? and ?L? versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? Yes, I'd say that's possible, even probable. The plural form was ?les anglois?, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn?t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be ?l?anglais?, which might be a more plausible precursor to ?Lagerash? or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don?t mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted. > Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ?sch? at the end to represent /?/. I wonder what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ?s-?? In modern German, initial ?s-? followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered s?gana? or z?gana?? It's hard to be sure. There are plenty of German dialects in which "S" is still rendered as [s]. Moreover, Maximilian was cognizant of the problems in rendering Indian languages phonetically, and he made special efforts to standardize his notation. I did a long study of his Siouan vocabularies in the new edition of his Journals from the Joslyn Museum in Omaha (which has the paintings from his expedition done by Bodmer). Generally, Max's notation is easy to interpret. > Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said ?Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash??, but can you confirm that Maximilian?s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe. Actually, I think Ojibwe may have the voiced pronunciation, but I may be mistaken. Haven't checked. Anthony may have included it in his mail. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 14:40:06 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:40:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jamie, to be honest, I don?t know. It is definitely close enough to catch my attention (as it did yours). Especially because of your mention of it being derogatory which my friend suggested with ?sale ganache.? Jimm, thanks for the confirmation on ?Lag-gar-ash.? It sure stood out to me but I wanted to be sure I wasn?t seeing something I wanted to see. George, I did a quick search on that individual (Billy Caldwell) and it seems he was half Pottawatomi (Algonquian language). It is fascinating to sort of see the route this name took through the decades. I am slowly getting my mind wrapped around Bob?s matching of Sanganasch to ?les anglois? but I think I am getting a feel for it. It is taking some time for me to get used to the changes but that is part of the fun ?. I am very anxious to see John Koontz?s information on this term. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jamie Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" > wrote: This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 15:28:04 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:28:04 +0000 Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0E88@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: While I have enjoyed the discussion and particularly liked 'sale ganache' "dirty mug", I think the explanation in terms of Middle French 'les anglois' is pretty well established. And although it was no doubt passed from tribe to tribe via several native languages, it is probably that French traders also helped spread the term. "Dirty mug" or "dirty faces" isn't too far off from the origin of Desmoines though. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:40 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Jamie, to be honest, I don?t know. It is definitely close enough to catch my attention (as it did yours). Especially because of your mention of it being derogatory which my friend suggested with ?sale ganache.? Jimm, thanks for the confirmation on ?Lag-gar-ash.? It sure stood out to me but I wanted to be sure I wasn?t seeing something I wanted to see. George, I did a quick search on that individual (Billy Caldwell) and it seems he was half Pottawatomi (Algonquian language). It is fascinating to sort of see the route this name took through the decades. I am slowly getting my mind wrapped around Bob?s matching of Sanganasch to ?les anglois? but I think I am getting a feel for it. It is taking some time for me to get used to the changes but that is part of the fun ?. I am very anxious to see John Koontz?s information on this term. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jamie Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch" Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)? -Jamie Amateur Linguist On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" > wrote: This is my first email to this list so I?ll introduce myself. My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I?ve been here just over four years now and we?ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members. I am currently wrestling with the term ?Sanganasch? which is from Maximilian?s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as ?Englishman.? Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is ?ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ?the English?.? I?ve attached this page to this email but I don?t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as ?sagd???? and ?sagd???? (Santee-Sisseton), ??agl??a? (Teton), ?S?ganasch? (Omaha), etc. Based on Maximilian?s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as ?sahng-gah-nash.? No matter how I try, I can?t see any real similarities between ?(le)s anglois? and ?Sanganasch? in my mind. I can (just!) see ?(le)s anglois? in ?Sanganasch? (underlined parts). So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn?t see how ?(le)s anglois? could be shoehorned into ?Sanganasch.? Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was ?sale ganache? which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the ?ganache? was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an ?L? in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn?t an ?L? (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling ?r? sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned ?sang? (blood) as well. I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this ?slang? would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term. So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of ?(le)s anglois?, I?d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close. Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term ?ra-kra-she? for ?Englishman.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Fri Aug 23 17:14:42 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 17:14:42 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Message-ID: Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sanganash2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 265587 bytes Desc: sanganash2.pdf URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sanganash1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 276915 bytes Desc: sanganash1.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 20:53:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:53:34 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <6d4e7d02d64948dfb116f94f83881c7f@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Anthony we have basically the last and most authoritative word on Saganash and its cousins in Colonial North America. Just a quick note on the Osage . I assume this represents an attempt to render something like mi gr??a or m? gr??a using English spelling conventions. Mi, in this instance, appears to be 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). I'd have expected w? in Osage for 'one', but a mishearing as mi isn't out of the question. The term could also have been borrowed into Osage from Kaw just to the North. In any event, the use of 'one' as a head noun in this case follows Dhegiha naming practice, even though it follows the noun when it functions as an indefinite article. So m? gr??a is '(some)one English', whereas gr??a-mi would be 'an English something-or-other' or 'English woman'. Bob > Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 20:57:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:57:58 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370336D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Oh, and thanks to Anathony we have a nice little notice to NSA and GCHQ who are protecting us from terrorism by monitoring the Siouan Listserve. Thanks for your service, guys! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Aug 23 21:03:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:03:08 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237033B8@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: So does that mean we have to start adding "Just kidding!" to the end of all our messages? Or is that just for the political bloggers? :) Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 3:58 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Oh, and thanks to Anathony we have a nice little notice to NSA and GCHQ who are protecting us from terrorism by monitoring the Siouan Listserve. Thanks for your service, guys! Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 21:06:47 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:06:47 -0500 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370336D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Wow, Bob. That gives me another way to look at the Otoe-Missouria term for raccoon. If I?d seen that name ?Mi-dayinga? without seeing a translation for ?furious one? but saw a reference to a Raccoon clan, from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, I would have assumed that ?Mi-dayinga? might translate to Little Raccoon since in Otoe-Missouria it would be Minkeinge (minke + -inge). This may open up a possibility of translating our term ?minke? (meeng-KAY) by giving us a peek at its possible descriptive meaning beyond simply ?raccoon? (IE what that term is actually saying/describing). And I am also curious if the similar term ?minke? (MEENG-kay) (notice the change in stress there) which means true/correct might be affected as well. As of right now, I have no idea if those terms are similar just because they are or if they are related. PS: I am liking this list VERY much! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 3:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Thanks to Anthony we have basically the last and most authoritative word on Saganash and its cousins in Colonial North America. Just a quick note on the Osage . I assume this represents an attempt to render something like mi gr??a or m? gr??a using English spelling conventions. Mi, in this instance, appears to be 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). I'd have expected w? in Osage for 'one', but a mishearing as mi isn't out of the question. The term could also have been borrowed into Osage from Kaw just to the North. In any event, the use of 'one' as a head noun in this case follows Dhegiha naming practice, even though it follows the noun when it functions as an indefinite article. So m? gr??a is '(some)one English', whereas gr??a-mi would be 'an English something-or-other' or 'English woman'. Bob > Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Aug 23 21:10:50 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <6d4e7d02d64948dfb116f94f83881c7f@DB3PR06MB155.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thank you!! Gives me a lot of starting points to start digging! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Aug 23 21:39:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:39:58 +0000 Subject: CORRECTION on Osage "me-gra-sha". Message-ID: A further note on the Osage . I assumed this represents an attempt to render m? gr??a using English spelling conventions. Mi, as noted, is 'one', as in the Kansa (Kaw) personal name Mi-dayinga 'furious one' (referring to a wounded raccoon, i.e., in this case, a member of the raccoon clan). The rest, written gra-sha, doesn't represent [gra?a] but [gre?e], in acccordance with aforementioned English rules of spelling/pronunciation. N.B. that this matches the attested Kaw term exactly. I had neglected to consult my own Kaw dictionary where "Englishman" is given as [migre?e] (obtained from 19th cent. materials). Sorry for the mixup. Also, the Kaw personal name, Mi-dayinga 'furious one', although it supposedly refers to someone of the Raccoon clan, doesn't contain any overt reference to 'raccoon'. Raccoon is mikka in Kaw, but the mi at the beginning is coincidental and the mi of mi-dayinga is the mi of mixci 'one'. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Fri Aug 23 21:41:25 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:41:25 +0000 Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E4369A7EAA0FD0@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Glad to be of help! It's a word which has long intrigued me. Anthony ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Campbell, Sky Sent: 23 August 2013 21:10 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Thank you!! Gives me a lot of starting points to start digging! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: that 1995 handout on Sanganash Dear all: Here it is! Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:10:23 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 17:10:23 +0000 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Message-ID: Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the name was based on the Indian name for ?British? that we have just recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of phonemes). I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of the bar?s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of the name. Oh shit. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:14:58 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:14:58 -0700 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623703A05@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ?British? that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar?s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Aug 24 17:27:03 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:27:03 -0500 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Message-ID: Great story -- made my day :-) >>> Marianne Mithun 08/24/13 12:16 PM >>> Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ?British? that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar?s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Aug 24 22:30:39 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 17:30:39 -0500 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623703A05@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: LOL! Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the name was based on the Indian name for 'British' that we have just recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of phonemes). I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of the bar's name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of the name. Oh shit. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sat Aug 24 22:46:57 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 22:46:57 +0000 Subject: The joke's on you, Bob. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great story, Bob - you wouldn't be the first linguist to jump to a wrong conclusion in precisely that way! Anthony ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Marianne Mithun Sent: 24 August 2013 17:14 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga. A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town. I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ?British? that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar?s name. Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Aug 24 23:27:58 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 00:27:58 +0100 Subject: A similar misunderstanding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Bob, I remember on my first trip to Persia I travelled by car via the then Yugoslavia and stayed about a week in Belgrade. ?There I was mystified by often seeing some tall muscular blonde long haired and bearded men travelling on the bus like me, who looked very different from the average Yugoslav of the day. ?I wondered who these people could be and with my rudimentary knowledge of the history of the region (I was only 19 at the time) I came to the conclusion that they must be Macedonians, possibly Macedonian nomads (do they exist?). ?Eventually being satisfied with this conclusion, but wishing, as they say nowadays 'to reach closure' and I asked someone if they had seen these people and they said 'Oh yes I know them. ?They are extras working on a film about the Vikings.' ? Still Macedonian nomads wasn't too bad at that age. Bruce ________________________________ From: Anthony Grant To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 23:46 Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Great story, Bob - you wouldn't be the first linguist to jump to a wrong conclusion in precisely that way! Anthony ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Marianne Mithun Sent: 24 August 2013 17:14 To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The joke's on you, Bob. Love it Bob! Marianne --On Saturday, August 24, 2013 5:10 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > > Just a footnote to the Saganash saga.? A year or so ago I had an > appointment in Topeka and drove in through the north (seedy) side of > town.? I passed a place called the Sasnak Tavern and thought maybe the > name was based on the Indian name for ?British? that we have just > recently been discussing here (even though it was missing a bunch of > phonemes). > > > > I managed to convince myself of this amazing discovery to the point that > I even thought about stopping off for a beer to ask about the history of > the bar?s name.? Then, driving away and feeling very proud of my > intellectual prowess in recognizing such an obscure historical fact, I > happened to glance in the rear view mirror and saw the mirror image of > the name. > > > > Oh shit. > > > > Bob ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Aug 31 10:08:41 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 11:08:41 +0100 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham In-Reply-To: <520902F1.4020905@usask.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Mary Bruce ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 16:44 Subject: tribute to Bruce Ingham Congratulations, Bruce!? This just appeared on LinguistList: Ingham of Arabia Subtitle: A Collection of Articles Presented as a Tribute to the Career of Bruce Ingham Mary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: