Looking for help with "Sanganasch"

[George Wilmes]

fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called
Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says:

"The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who
played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago.  Chief
Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to
maintaining peace between the Native Americans and the settlers."

http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm



On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:

>  Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of
> this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and
> plural?  The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant
> before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term.  But the singular wouldn’t
> have had that.  In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which
> might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she.  Since the
> recipient languages either don’t mark singular and plural, or do it in a
> completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they
> adopted.****
>
> ** **
>
> Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to
> check Native pronunciation?  Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at
> the end to represent /š/.  I wonder what pronunciation value was intended
> by the initial ‘s-’?  In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is
> generally pronounced /z/.  Should this term be rendered sąganaš or
> ząganaš?  Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “Based
> on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as
> “sahng-gah-nash””, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s +
> vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the
> modern language?  An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation
> better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native
> language like Ojibwe.****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards,****
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rankin, Robert L.
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"****
>
>  ** **
>
> Hi Sky,
>
>
> I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate.  It
> would have come from the pronunciation  of "les anglois" that was current
> in the 17th century in French North America.  The initial "S" is what's
> left of "les".  In some native languages it's the "L" that gets kept, and
> the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash".  The remainder of the
> name has approximately the following correspondences:
>
>
>   s a n g a n a  sh
> les a n g   l wa s     or
> les a n g   l we s
>
> The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting
> more and more confused and messed up at each step.  Most of the languages
> didn't take the term directly from French.
>
> Bob****
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. ****
>
>  ****
>
> My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the
> Otoe-Missouria tribe.  I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve
> come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical
> information, and recording tribal members.****
>
>  ****
>
> I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from
> Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites).  Maximilian translates it as
> “Englishman.”  Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol.
> 13*, says it is “ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ‘the
> English’.”  I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this
> list will treat attachments.  This page also lists variations from other
> tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša”
> (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.****
>
>  ****
>
> Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as
> “sahng-gah-nash.”****
>
>  ****
>
> No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s
> anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind.  I can (just!) see “(le)*s ang*lois”
> in “*Sang*anasch” (underlined parts).****
>
>  ****
>
> So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France.  He was originally
> from here but has lived there over 20 years now.  He also couldn’t see how
> “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.”  Since he is fluent
> in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might
> be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty
> face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering
> terms.  He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along
> the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal.  But he noted the lack of an
> “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there
> isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers
> that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or
> contracted over time.  He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.****
>
>  ****
>
> I have no idea how accurate this term could be.  But if it is, it would be
> very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe
> Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation
> for them.  But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in
> use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was.  Plus it looks like
> its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes
> had a similar term.****
>
>  ****
>
> So that is what I am looking at.  Any feedback, any avenues to check out,
> any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  If this is some form of
> “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how.  Or if anyone can tell me if I
> am getting close.****
>
>  ****
>
> Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for
> “Englishman.”****
>
>  ****
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*****
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
>  ****
>
>
>   ­­  ****
>
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