From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 2 18:44:23 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:44:23 -0600 Subject: 2014 conference Message-ID: Hi all, I just checked Google to see if there was a date yet for the SCLC in 2014. According to the site, it will be held in Madison, WI, but dates are yet to be determined. Is this still true? I am wondering about the dates since, as the Director of the Kaw Language Department, I will need to seek permission for time off and possible coverage by the Tribe for conference travel and expenses. Also, I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of the 2014 Collaborative Languages Workshop (CoLang) being held at the University of Texas in Arlington, beginning June 16, 2014. Thus it would be ideal to have the SCLC conference before CoLang. Happy Holidays! Dave David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Dec 2 20:26:18 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:26:18 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <001801cee569$8b6cc050$a24640f0$@com> Message-ID: Today I came across a variant of my below term of “tothke” which Maximilian has as “tohshäh” if that helps out at all. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:55 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I am not sure if this will help but I've come across a term that MAY apply here. Rev. Moses Merrill wrote Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (spelled nowadays as Wadota Wawagaxe Etawe Yąwe Waxonyitą) in 1834 which literally translates as "Otoe book his/her/(their) song sacred" or as Merrill puts it, "Otoe Hymn Book." There are 13 hymns in this book, 10 of which are in his book First Ioway Reading Book from the following year. This second book has these hymns translated. However, there are 3 hymns from the first book that aren't translated. The first of these he names "Togkaka" which I translate as "Liar(s)." The hymn has such lines as: Wd kun tl tog ka wo jif ik (spelled now as "Wakąnda tothke woshinge ke") - God hates liars. Another line reads: Tog kaj ko new e ra (spelled now as "Tothke skunyiwi re") - (You-all) do not lie. Your "kankan" portion of "wakankan s'a" had me think of the "kaka" that Merrill had in his song title "Togkaka." I don't know what the "kaka" (pronounced "keke") is doing here exactly. Dorsey has "tothke" as lie but since Merrill doesn't differentiate between g and k in his books, I don't know if the second "ke" is actually "-ge" which can refer to a quality or intrinsic value of something (IE "tothkege" = intrinsic value of someone who lies to mean a liar???) or if there is some reduplication going on here. Now let's take this a step further...is the first "thke" used to refer to "like" or "similar" to something (I've often wondered if the suffix -thke (like/similar) and -ge (quality of) are related)? And if so, what would the "to-" be? A contracted form of something? What is a "liar" like or similar to? Or is "tothke" just more or less its own word? Like I said, this is only based on the "kaka" (again, pronounced "keke" (kege??)) from Merrill's term "Togkaka." I have no idea if it might be related to your "waKANKAN s'a." At any rate, I hope this helps (even just a little :) ). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cal Thunder Hawk Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” > So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Tue Dec 3 08:46:05 2013 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:46:05 +0100 Subject: Antw: 2014 conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, thank you very much, Dave, to bring this issue up. For me and everyone coming from abroad it would be very important to have a fixed date in order to be able to book flights early in advance. Otherwise the fares are quite expensive. In addition, this time I am thinking of bringing one or two students with me. I will encourage them to present something for the conference; on HoocaNk of course. So, I would like to ask the organizers in Madision if it would be possible to set up the dates for the conference soon. All the best Johannes >>> > Hi all, > > I just checked Google to see if there was a date yet for the SCLC in 2014. > According to the site, it will be held in Madison, WI, but dates are yet > to be determined. Is this still true? I am wondering about the dates > since, as the Director of the Kaw Language Department, I will need to seek > permission for time off and possible coverage by the Tribe for conference > travel and expenses. Also, I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of > the 2014 Collaborative Languages Workshop (CoLang) being held at the > University of Texas in Arlington, beginning June 16, 2014. Thus it would > be ideal to have the SCLC conference before CoLang. > > Happy Holidays! > > Dave > > David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology > University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakultät für Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universität Regensburg Universitätsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 4 00:05:21 2013 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:05:21 -0800 Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms Message-ID:  I'm trying find out if the statement made about Tutelo kinship terms is correct in that Tutelo kinship terms have been said to be representative of bi-lateral clan structures. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 4 00:14:19 2013 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:14:19 -0800 Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms In-Reply-To: <1386115521.41186.YahooMailNeo@web181306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID:  “Although Lederer provided considerable detail concerning culture and religion, including information on matrilineal clans, Speck (1938a:11) and Feest (1975:152) pointed out that this information was obtained from Lederer’s guides and refers to the Pamunkey or Susquehannock of the coastal plain rather than to the piedmont Siouans, which view had been accepted previously (Mooney 1894; Dorsey 1894a; Swanton 1905). There is no evidence that Virginia Siouan society was organized in clans. What was later recorded of Tutelo kinship terminology suggests bilateral social organization (Speck and Schaeffer 1942:574).   Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Scott Collins To: Siouan List Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:05 PM Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms  I'm trying find out if the statement made about Tutelo kinship terms is correct in that Tutelo kinship terms have been said to be representative of bi-lateral clan structures. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Thu Dec 5 18:35:37 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:35:37 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623718D64@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I’ve come across a variant of “nine” that I’d seen a couple years ago but then forgot about it. It is listed like this in two sources: kjag-kæ (kshanke) – An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language (1843) by Hamilton and Irvin Ek jdfk (ikshanke) – Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill Merrill’s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE “ninth” rather than “nine”) but the “k” is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I’ve come across only have “sanke/shanke” (or something along those lines) with no “k”. It has been mentioned here that “sanke” was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of “k” also fit with other Algonquian “nines”? This extra “k” had me take another look at Iren’s information on the Hocąk nine: hižąkicųšgųnį - hižą (ONE) - ki- cųųšgųnį (be.without) But nothing has caught my eye there beyond the “ki” which had me think about the “minus one” or “less one” idea that some of you said is the theme behind many of the “nine” terms and has me tentatively wondering: iyąnki – one ksanke – nine (going with the “k” variant here…and trying to pronounce it sounds like “kisanke”) And wondering about this possibility: (iyąn)k(i)sanke Does this sound familiar to anyone? Our “iyąnki” looks to be very close to the above “hiząki” and that would fit in my idea but it would be a stretch to try to shoehorn in the rest. Does “sanke” follow the pattern of “less one” in Algonquian? It looks like if my idea was to hold any water, then the “sanke” part would have to somehow fill the “less one” role if that “k” is indeed a remnant of “iyąnki” at the front. Thoughts? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 7:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. Every little bit is interesting and helpful. Thanks Dave. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 6:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I know it's not all that important, but in the oldest Miami-Illinois records, "eight" is para·re. By the late 1700s, it's pala·ni in all dialects. Dave I need to add a little to my earlier comments on 'seven' and 'eight'. Chiwere only shows the partial quinary traces in 'eight', not 'seven'. And they seem to have borrowed it from Omaha. Below is the comparative dictionary entry for 'eight', and it shows the Omaha influence. GLOSS[ eight CH[ gre•rá•brį RR Proto-Dhegiha[ *hpe•-rá•wrį OM[ ppeðábðį C PN[ ppe•ðábðį RR KS[ ppe•yá•blį OS[ hpe•ðá•brį QU[ ppedá•bnį ProtoSE[ *pa-ra•nį OF[ pạ́tạnĭ DS-328b OF[ pA´tAnî Swanton 1909-485 TU[ pālán (N); palāni, palāli, palāniq H TU[ pǎlan´ Hw TU[ pelą̈ʹk‘ Sapir TU[ balai´n Fracht TU[ bilaæ:kh, bilæ̨:kh Mithun OTHLGS[ Miami: palani (with variant forms recorded.) COM[ The CH pattern is almost certainly borrowed from DH, as the basis for this numeral is ‘three’, which, in CH, has undergone normal development to {dá•ñį}, not {*ra•brį}. This term is probably not PSI in origin as it occurs in the proper phonological form (*hpV + ‘three’) only in OVS and DH. Its presence in Illinois Algonquian (Rankin, 1985) shows that it spread from an OVS dialect. No actual PSI term for ‘eight’ is currently reconstructible. Treatment of 'seven' follows in a separate message. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Dec 5 22:40:00 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 22:40:00 +0000 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A37EF95C0B@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, Yes, the initial k- seems to be part of the original term, probably from *ki-. Down below your comments I have copied the Comparative Dictionary entry for 'nine'. As you'll see, several of the languages show traces of the ki- or k-. My Chiwere recordings showed a glottal stop as residue of the k-. It's interesting that you found citations of the word with the full k-. Thanks. Bob > Ek jdfk (ikshanke) – Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill > Merrill’s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE “ninth” rather than “nine”) but the “k” is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I’ve come across only have “sanke/shanke” (or something along those lines) with no “k”. It has been mentioned here that “sanke” was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of “k” also fit with other Algonquian “nines”? Thoughts? GLOSS[ nine GRAMCAT[ N SEMCAT[ OTHREC[ {*kšą́kha} {GHM58} PMV[ *kšą́hka ¦ (?) CH[ ʔšą́khe ‘nine’ rlr CH[ θą́khe ‘nine’ rtc PDH[ *šą́hka OP[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr OP[ šǫ́kka ¦ nine ¦ rtc KS[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr OS[ šą́hka ¦ nine, archaic, card game ¦ rlr QU[ šąkka ¦ nine ¦ rlr PSE[ *kišą́•hka ¦ (?) BI[ †čkané “tckanĕ´” ‘nine’ DS:265 (?) OF[ †kíštəška “kî´shtAshga” ‘nine’ {JRS09:485} OF[ “kĭ´ctạcga” ‘nine’ DS:325b TU[ †kisą́•hkai “tça (N), sā, sāñ, ksañk, ksāhkai, kasankai, ksākai” ‘nine’ HH TU[ ¦ ksäⁿhk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Hw. TU[ ¦ sęk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Sapir TU[ ¦ kseⁿk ¦ ‘nine’ Fracht. TU[ ¦ kiséⁿg, kisén ¦ two ¦ Fracht. COM[ The recorded CH forms imply different underlying sibilants. PSI *š often does become [s], but only primary PSI *s > θ}, {i.e.}, CH {š} and {θ} never vary or alternate regularly. But note also the irregular TU {s} where {č} is expected. BI {tckanĕ´} {DS:265a} is probably borrowed from Choctaw-Chickasaw {čakkâ•li} {nine}; {n} is the usual BI replacement for Western Muskogean {l} This W. Muskogean term lacks Creek, Hitchiti cognates however, and may be from the same ultimate source as Siouan {*kišą́•hka} OF seems to show the intrusive {t} that appears following sibilants in {black}, {q.v.} OF {ạ} often represents denasalized {*ą}. {Cf.} also Powhatan {*ke•ka•ta•s} {nine} {FS 1975:309} as well as other, well known Algonquian look-alikes such as Ojibwa {ša•nk-} Fox {ša•ka}, Shawnee {caakathzwi}, Potawatomi {šak} {nine} {FS 1975:311, Rhodes, personal communication}. The distribution of this set (only the more southerly languages represented), the sibilant, and other phonological irregularities in CH, OF and TU, coupled with the presence of similar terms in both Algonquian and Muskogean languages lead us to conclude that this is a loanword. Direction(s) of borrowing and/or source of the term is unknown. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Dec 6 15:47:07 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 09:47:07 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62389E1F2@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I wondered if there was a glottal stop in there somewhere. I see a “k” in Hamilton and Irvin’s books when there would often be a glottal stop. For example, their list of catechisms which they titled “We-wv-hæ-kju” (Wiwąxesų or Wiwąxe’sų (“(general) questions”)). What I also find interesting is that Hamilton and Irvin’s publication five years later (1848) (An Ioway Grammar) doesn’t have the “k” with the word for “nine.” Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:40 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. Sky, Yes, the initial k- seems to be part of the original term, probably from *ki-. Down below your comments I have copied the Comparative Dictionary entry for 'nine'. As you'll see, several of the languages show traces of the ki- or k-. My Chiwere recordings showed a glottal stop as residue of the k-. It's interesting that you found citations of the word with the full k-. Thanks. Bob > Ek jdfk (ikshanke) – Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill > Merrill’s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE “ninth” rather than “nine”) but the “k” is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I’ve come across only have “sanke/shanke” (or something along those lines) with no “k”. It has been mentioned here that “sanke” was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of “k” also fit with other Algonquian “nines”? Thoughts? GLOSS[ nine GRAMCAT[ N SEMCAT[ OTHREC[ {*kšą́kha} {GHM58} PMV[ *kšą́hka ¦ (?) CH[ ʔšą́khe ‘nine’ rlr CH[ θą́khe ‘nine’ rtc PDH[ *šą́hka OP[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr OP[ šǫ́kka ¦ nine ¦ rtc KS[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr OS[ šą́hka ¦ nine, archaic, card game ¦ rlr QU[ šąkka ¦ nine ¦ rlr PSE[ *kišą́•hka ¦ (?) BI[ †čkané “tckanĕ´” ‘nine’ DS:265 (?) OF[ †kíštəška “kî´shtAshga” ‘nine’ {JRS09:485} OF[ “kĭ´ctạcga” ‘nine’ DS:325b TU[ †kisą́•hkai “tça (N), sā, sāñ, ksañk, ksāhkai, kasankai, ksākai” ‘nine’ HH TU[ ¦ ksäⁿhk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Hw. TU[ ¦ sęk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Sapir TU[ ¦ kseⁿk ¦ ‘nine’ Fracht. TU[ ¦ kiséⁿg, kisén ¦ two ¦ Fracht. COM[ The recorded CH forms imply different underlying sibilants. PSI *š often does become [s], but only primary PSI *s > θ}, {i.e.}, CH {š} and {θ} never vary or alternate regularly. But note also the irregular TU {s} where {č} is expected. BI {tckanĕ´} {DS:265a} is probably borrowed from Choctaw-Chickasaw {čakkâ•li} {nine}; {n} is the usual BI replacement for Western Muskogean {l} This W. Muskogean term lacks Creek, Hitchiti cognates however, and may be from the same ultimate source as Siouan {*kišą́•hka} OF seems to show the intrusive {t} that appears following sibilants in {black}, {q.v.} OF {ạ} often represents denasalized {*ą}. {Cf.} also Powhatan {*ke•ka•ta•s} {nine} {FS 1975:309} as well as other, well known Algonquian look-alikes such as Ojibwa {ša•nk-} Fox {ša•ka}, Shawnee {caakathzwi}, Potawatomi {šak} {nine} {FS 1975:311, Rhodes, personal communication}. The distribution of this set (only the more southerly languages represented), the sibilant, and other phonological irregularities in CH, OF and TU, coupled with the presence of similar terms in both Algonquian and Muskogean languages lead us to conclude that this is a loanword. Direction(s) of borrowing and/or source of the term is unknown. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Thu Dec 12 19:36:34 2013 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:36:34 -0600 Subject: dates for 2014 conference In-Reply-To: <51744A020200008E00086507@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: The following message appeared on the Linguist List a day or 2 ago. (LINGUIST List Vol-24-5085): The 34th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will take place at the University of Wisconsin-Madison May 23-25, 2014. The Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is for anyone interested in the languages of the Siouan and Caddoan linguistic families. A call for papers and registration information will be announced shortly. Contact: Meredith Johnson Contact Email: majohnson25 at wisc.edu Just passing on this info for those who have requested a date.... I don't think it's been sent to the Siouan list yet, has it? If I missed it I apologize. I assume the further info alluded to in the last line will be showing up here as well as other places. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Fri Dec 13 09:26:03 2013 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:26:03 +0100 Subject: Next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference Message-ID: Dear Meredith Johnson, you announced the next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference on LinguistList some days ago. This is fine, but the ones who are interested most in this conference and who are the ones who will attend the conference more likely are the people who communicate on a different list, the Siouan List. Personally, I do read the LinguistList, but I am not sure that all Siouanists do this. So, I would propose to post all information regarding the next conference on the Siouan List too. If you don't know how to subscribe please ask Mark Awakuni-Swetland from the University of Nebraska in Lincoln. Many thanks Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakultät für Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universität Regensburg Universitätsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Fri Dec 13 17:26:03 2013 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:26:03 -0600 Subject: 34th Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Message-ID: Dear all, Apologies for the delay in posting this information to the list. The 34th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will take place at the University of Wisconsin-Madison May 23-25, 2014. A call for papers and registration information will be announced shortly, but in the meantime, please feel free to send any questions to me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu All the best, and looking forward to seeing everyone in May! Thanks, Meredith Johnson Bryan Rosen Mateja Schuck SCLC 34 Coordinators From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Fri Dec 13 17:18:40 2013 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:18:40 -0600 Subject: Next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference In-Reply-To: <52AAE0BB0200004000058890@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: Hi All, Meredith is not currently on the Siouan list. She has requested to be added. She had the call completed and sent it out to The Linguist List and was then planning on posting it here on The Siouan List, but Catherine beat her to it. I know that all future updates will be posted to both lists. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone in May! All the best, John On 12/13/13 3:26 AM, "Johannes Helmbrecht" wrote: >Dear Meredith Johnson, > >you announced the next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference on >LinguistList some days ago. This is fine, but the ones who are interested >most >in this conference and who are the ones who will attend the conference >more >likely are the people who communicate on a different list, the Siouan >List. >Personally, I do read the LinguistList, but I am not sure that all >Siouanists >do this. So, I would propose to post all information regarding the next >conference on the Siouan List too. If you don't know how to subscribe >please >ask Mark Awakuni-Swetland from the University of Nebraska in Lincoln. > >Many thanks >Johannes > > > >-- > >Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht >Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft >Fakultät für Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften >Universität Regensburg >Universitätsstrasse 31 >D-93053 Regensburg > >Tel. 0941/943-3388 >Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) >Fax. 0941/943-2429 > >Website: >www-avs.uni-regensburg.de > >E-mail: >johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de > > From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 2 18:44:23 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:44:23 -0600 Subject: 2014 conference Message-ID: Hi all, I just checked Google to see if there was a date yet for the SCLC in 2014. According to the site, it will be held in Madison, WI, but dates are yet to be determined. Is this still true? I am wondering about the dates since, as the Director of the Kaw Language Department, I will need to seek permission for time off and possible coverage by the Tribe for conference travel and expenses. Also, I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of the 2014 Collaborative Languages Workshop (CoLang) being held at the University of Texas in Arlington, beginning June 16, 2014. Thus it would be ideal to have the SCLC conference before CoLang. Happy Holidays! Dave David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Dec 2 20:26:18 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:26:18 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <001801cee569$8b6cc050$a24640f0$@com> Message-ID: Today I came across a variant of my below term of ?tothke? which Maximilian has as ?tohsh?h? if that helps out at all. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:55 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I am not sure if this will help but I've come across a term that MAY apply here. Rev. Moses Merrill wrote Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (spelled nowadays as Wadota Wawagaxe Etawe Y?we Waxonyit?) in 1834 which literally translates as "Otoe book his/her/(their) song sacred" or as Merrill puts it, "Otoe Hymn Book." There are 13 hymns in this book, 10 of which are in his book First Ioway Reading Book from the following year. This second book has these hymns translated. However, there are 3 hymns from the first book that aren't translated. The first of these he names "Togkaka" which I translate as "Liar(s)." The hymn has such lines as: Wd kun tl tog ka wo jif ik (spelled now as "Wak?nda tothke woshinge ke") - God hates liars. Another line reads: Tog kaj ko new e ra (spelled now as "Tothke skunyiwi re") - (You-all) do not lie. Your "kankan" portion of "wakankan s'a" had me think of the "kaka" that Merrill had in his song title "Togkaka." I don't know what the "kaka" (pronounced "keke") is doing here exactly. Dorsey has "tothke" as lie but since Merrill doesn't differentiate between g and k in his books, I don't know if the second "ke" is actually "-ge" which can refer to a quality or intrinsic value of something (IE "tothkege" = intrinsic value of someone who lies to mean a liar???) or if there is some reduplication going on here. Now let's take this a step further...is the first "thke" used to refer to "like" or "similar" to something (I've often wondered if the suffix -thke (like/similar) and -ge (quality of) are related)? And if so, what would the "to-" be? A contracted form of something? What is a "liar" like or similar to? Or is "tothke" just more or less its own word? Like I said, this is only based on the "kaka" (again, pronounced "keke" (kege??)) from Merrill's term "Togkaka." I have no idea if it might be related to your "waKANKAN s'a." At any rate, I hope this helps (even just a little :) ). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cal Thunder Hawk Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I?m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;? And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? > So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.? Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Tue Dec 3 08:46:05 2013 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:46:05 +0100 Subject: Antw: 2014 conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, thank you very much, Dave, to bring this issue up. For me and everyone coming from abroad it would be very important to have a fixed date in order to be able to book flights early in advance. Otherwise the fares are quite expensive. In addition, this time I am thinking of bringing one or two students with me. I will encourage them to present something for the conference; on HoocaNk of course. So, I would like to ask the organizers in Madision if it would be possible to set up the dates for the conference soon. All the best Johannes >>> > Hi all, > > I just checked Google to see if there was a date yet for the SCLC in 2014. > According to the site, it will be held in Madison, WI, but dates are yet > to be determined. Is this still true? I am wondering about the dates > since, as the Director of the Kaw Language Department, I will need to seek > permission for time off and possible coverage by the Tribe for conference > travel and expenses. Also, I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of > the 2014 Collaborative Languages Workshop (CoLang) being held at the > University of Texas in Arlington, beginning June 16, 2014. Thus it would > be ideal to have the SCLC conference before CoLang. > > Happy Holidays! > > Dave > > David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology > University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakult?t f?r Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universit?t Regensburg Universit?tsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 4 00:05:21 2013 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:05:21 -0800 Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms Message-ID: ?I'm trying find out if the statement made about Tutelo kinship terms is correct in that Tutelo kinship terms have been said to be representative of bi-lateral clan structures. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 4 00:14:19 2013 From: saponi360 at yahoo.com (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:14:19 -0800 Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms In-Reply-To: <1386115521.41186.YahooMailNeo@web181306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ??Although Lederer provided considerable detail concerning culture and religion, including information on matrilineal clans, Speck (1938a:11) and Feest (1975:152) pointed out that this information was obtained from Lederer?s guides and refers to the Pamunkey or Susquehannock of the coastal plain rather than to the piedmont Siouans, which view had been accepted previously (Mooney 1894; Dorsey 1894a; Swanton 1905). There is no evidence that Virginia Siouan society was organized in clans. What was later recorded of Tutelo kinship terminology suggests bilateral social organization (Speck and Schaeffer 1942:574). ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Scott Collins To: Siouan List Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:05 PM Subject: Tutelo Kinship Terms ?I'm trying find out if the statement made about Tutelo kinship terms is correct in that Tutelo kinship terms have been said to be representative of bi-lateral clan structures. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Thu Dec 5 18:35:37 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:35:37 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623718D64@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I?ve come across a variant of ?nine? that I?d seen a couple years ago but then forgot about it. It is listed like this in two sources: kjag-k? (kshanke) ? An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language (1843) by Hamilton and Irvin Ek jdfk (ikshanke) ? Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill Merrill?s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE ?ninth? rather than ?nine?) but the ?k? is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I?ve come across only have ?sanke/shanke? (or something along those lines) with no ?k?. It has been mentioned here that ?sanke? was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of ?k? also fit with other Algonquian ?nines?? This extra ?k? had me take another look at Iren?s information on the Hoc?k nine: hiz?a?kicu?s?gu?ni? - hiz?a? (ONE) - ki- cu?u?s?gu?ni? (be.without) But nothing has caught my eye there beyond the ?ki? which had me think about the ?minus one? or ?less one? idea that some of you said is the theme behind many of the ?nine? terms and has me tentatively wondering: iy?nki ? one ksanke ? nine (going with the ?k? variant here?and trying to pronounce it sounds like ?kisanke?) And wondering about this possibility: (iy?n)k(i)sanke Does this sound familiar to anyone? Our ?iy?nki? looks to be very close to the above ?hiz?ki? and that would fit in my idea but it would be a stretch to try to shoehorn in the rest. Does ?sanke? follow the pattern of ?less one? in Algonquian? It looks like if my idea was to hold any water, then the ?sanke? part would have to somehow fill the ?less one? role if that ?k? is indeed a remnant of ?iy?nki? at the front. Thoughts? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 7:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. Every little bit is interesting and helpful. Thanks Dave. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 6:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I know it's not all that important, but in the oldest Miami-Illinois records, "eight" is para?re. By the late 1700s, it's pala?ni in all dialects. Dave I need to add a little to my earlier comments on 'seven' and 'eight'. Chiwere only shows the partial quinary traces in 'eight', not 'seven'. And they seem to have borrowed it from Omaha. Below is the comparative dictionary entry for 'eight', and it shows the Omaha influence. GLOSS[ eight CH[ gre?r??br? RR Proto-Dhegiha[ *hpe?-r??wr? OM[ ppe??b?? C PN[ ppe???b?? RR KS[ ppe?y??bl? OS[ hpe????br? QU[ pped??bn? ProtoSE[ *pa-ra?n? OF[ p??ta?n? DS-328b OF[ pA?tAn? Swanton 1909-485 TU[ pa?l?n (N); pala?ni, pala?li, pala?niq H TU[ p?lan? Hw TU[ pel???k? Sapir TU[ balai?n Fracht TU[ bila?:kh, bil??:kh Mithun OTHLGS[ Miami: palani (with variant forms recorded.) COM[ The CH pattern is almost certainly borrowed from DH, as the basis for this numeral is ?three?, which, in CH, has undergone normal development to {d????}, not {*ra?br?}. This term is probably not PSI in origin as it occurs in the proper phonological form (*hpV + ?three?) only in OVS and DH. Its presence in Illinois Algonquian (Rankin, 1985) shows that it spread from an OVS dialect. No actual PSI term for ?eight? is currently reconstructible. Treatment of 'seven' follows in a separate message. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Thu Dec 5 22:40:00 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 22:40:00 +0000 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A37EF95C0B@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, Yes, the initial k- seems to be part of the original term, probably from *ki-. Down below your comments I have copied the Comparative Dictionary entry for 'nine'. As you'll see, several of the languages show traces of the ki- or k-. My Chiwere recordings showed a glottal stop as residue of the k-. It's interesting that you found citations of the word with the full k-. Thanks. Bob > Ek jdfk (ikshanke) ? Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill > Merrill?s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE ?ninth? rather than ?nine?) but the ?k? is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I?ve come across only have ?sanke/shanke? (or something along those lines) with no ?k?. It has been mentioned here that ?sanke? was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of ?k? also fit with other Algonquian ?nines?? Thoughts? GLOSS[ nine GRAMCAT[ N SEMCAT[ OTHREC[ {*k???kha} {GHM58} PMV[ *k???hka ? (?) CH[ ????khe ?nine? rlr CH[ ???khe ?nine? rtc PDH[ *???hka OP[ ???kka ? nine ? rlr OP[ ???kka ? nine ? rtc KS[ ???kka ? nine ? rlr OS[ ???hka ? nine, archaic, card game ? rlr QU[ ??kka ? nine ? rlr PSE[ *ki????hka ? (?) BI[ ??kan? ?tckan??? ?nine? DS:265 (?) OF[ ?k??t??ka ?k??shtAshga? ?nine? {JRS09:485} OF[ ?k??cta?cga? ?nine? DS:325b TU[ ?kis???hkai ?t?a (N), sa?, sa??, ksa?k, ksa?hkai, kasankai, ksa?kai? ?nine? HH TU[ ? ks??hk? ? ?nine? Hw. TU[ ? s?k? ? ?nine? Sapir TU[ ? kse?k ? ?nine? Fracht. TU[ ? kis??g, kis?n ? two ? Fracht. COM[ The recorded CH forms imply different underlying sibilants. PSI *? often does become [s], but only primary PSI *s > ?}, {i.e.}, CH {?} and {?} never vary or alternate regularly. But note also the irregular TU {s} where {?} is expected. BI {tckan??} {DS:265a} is probably borrowed from Choctaw-Chickasaw {?akk??li} {nine}; {n} is the usual BI replacement for Western Muskogean {l} This W. Muskogean term lacks Creek, Hitchiti cognates however, and may be from the same ultimate source as Siouan {*ki????hka} OF seems to show the intrusive {t} that appears following sibilants in {black}, {q.v.} OF {a?} often represents denasalized {*?}. {Cf.} also Powhatan {*ke?ka?ta?s} {nine} {FS 1975:309} as well as other, well known Algonquian look-alikes such as Ojibwa {?a?nk-} Fox {?a?ka}, Shawnee {caakathzwi}, Potawatomi {?ak} {nine} {FS 1975:311, Rhodes, personal communication}. The distribution of this set (only the more southerly languages represented), the sibilant, and other phonological irregularities in CH, OF and TU, coupled with the presence of similar terms in both Algonquian and Muskogean languages lead us to conclude that this is a loanword. Direction(s) of borrowing and/or source of the term is unknown. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Dec 6 15:47:07 2013 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 09:47:07 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62389E1F2@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I wondered if there was a glottal stop in there somewhere. I see a ?k? in Hamilton and Irvin?s books when there would often be a glottal stop. For example, their list of catechisms which they titled ?We-wv-h?-kju? (Wiw?xes? or Wiw?xe?s? (?(general) questions?)). What I also find interesting is that Hamilton and Irvin?s publication five years later (1848) (An Ioway Grammar) doesn?t have the ?k? with the word for ?nine.? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:40 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. Sky, Yes, the initial k- seems to be part of the original term, probably from *ki-. Down below your comments I have copied the Comparative Dictionary entry for 'nine'. As you'll see, several of the languages show traces of the ki- or k-. My Chiwere recordings showed a glottal stop as residue of the k-. It's interesting that you found citations of the word with the full k-. Thanks. Bob > Ek jdfk (ikshanke) ? Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill > Merrill?s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE ?ninth? rather than ?nine?) but the ?k? is still present which is what has me curious. To date, all other sources I?ve come across only have ?sanke/shanke? (or something along those lines) with no ?k?. It has been mentioned here that ?sanke? was borrowed from Algonquian. Does the inclusion of ?k? also fit with other Algonquian ?nines?? Thoughts? GLOSS[ nine GRAMCAT[ N SEMCAT[ OTHREC[ {*k???kha} {GHM58} PMV[ *k???hka ? (?) CH[ ????khe ?nine? rlr CH[ ???khe ?nine? rtc PDH[ *???hka OP[ ???kka ? nine ? rlr OP[ ???kka ? nine ? rtc KS[ ???kka ? nine ? rlr OS[ ???hka ? nine, archaic, card game ? rlr QU[ ??kka ? nine ? rlr PSE[ *ki????hka ? (?) BI[ ??kan? ?tckan??? ?nine? DS:265 (?) OF[ ?k??t??ka ?k??shtAshga? ?nine? {JRS09:485} OF[ ?k??cta?cga? ?nine? DS:325b TU[ ?kis???hkai ?t?a (N), sa?, sa??, ksa?k, ksa?hkai, kasankai, ksa?kai? ?nine? HH TU[ ? ks??hk? ? ?nine? Hw. TU[ ? s?k? ? ?nine? Sapir TU[ ? kse?k ? ?nine? Fracht. TU[ ? kis??g, kis?n ? two ? Fracht. COM[ The recorded CH forms imply different underlying sibilants. PSI *? often does become [s], but only primary PSI *s > ?}, {i.e.}, CH {?} and {?} never vary or alternate regularly. But note also the irregular TU {s} where {?} is expected. BI {tckan??} {DS:265a} is probably borrowed from Choctaw-Chickasaw {?akk??li} {nine}; {n} is the usual BI replacement for Western Muskogean {l} This W. Muskogean term lacks Creek, Hitchiti cognates however, and may be from the same ultimate source as Siouan {*ki????hka} OF seems to show the intrusive {t} that appears following sibilants in {black}, {q.v.} OF {a?} often represents denasalized {*?}. {Cf.} also Powhatan {*ke?ka?ta?s} {nine} {FS 1975:309} as well as other, well known Algonquian look-alikes such as Ojibwa {?a?nk-} Fox {?a?ka}, Shawnee {caakathzwi}, Potawatomi {?ak} {nine} {FS 1975:311, Rhodes, personal communication}. The distribution of this set (only the more southerly languages represented), the sibilant, and other phonological irregularities in CH, OF and TU, coupled with the presence of similar terms in both Algonquian and Muskogean languages lead us to conclude that this is a loanword. Direction(s) of borrowing and/or source of the term is unknown. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Thu Dec 12 19:36:34 2013 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:36:34 -0600 Subject: dates for 2014 conference In-Reply-To: <51744A020200008E00086507@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: The following message appeared on the Linguist List a day or 2 ago. (LINGUIST List Vol-24-5085): The 34th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will take place at the University of Wisconsin-Madison May 23-25, 2014. The Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is for anyone interested in the languages of the Siouan and Caddoan linguistic families. A call for papers and registration information will be announced shortly. Contact: Meredith Johnson Contact Email: majohnson25 at wisc.edu Just passing on this info for those who have requested a date.... I don't think it's been sent to the Siouan list yet, has it? If I missed it I apologize. I assume the further info alluded to in the last line will be showing up here as well as other places. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Fri Dec 13 09:26:03 2013 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:26:03 +0100 Subject: Next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference Message-ID: Dear Meredith Johnson, you announced the next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference on LinguistList some days ago. This is fine, but the ones who are interested most in this conference and who are the ones who will attend the conference more likely are the people who communicate on a different list, the Siouan List. Personally, I do read the LinguistList, but I am not sure that all Siouanists do this. So, I would propose to post all information regarding the next conference on the Siouan List too. If you don't know how to subscribe please ask Mark Awakuni-Swetland from the University of Nebraska in Lincoln. Many thanks Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakult?t f?r Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universit?t Regensburg Universit?tsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Fri Dec 13 17:26:03 2013 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:26:03 -0600 Subject: 34th Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Message-ID: Dear all, Apologies for the delay in posting this information to the list. The 34th Annual Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference will take place at the University of Wisconsin-Madison May 23-25, 2014. A call for papers and registration information will be announced shortly, but in the meantime, please feel free to send any questions to me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu All the best, and looking forward to seeing everyone in May! Thanks, Meredith Johnson Bryan Rosen Mateja Schuck SCLC 34 Coordinators From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Fri Dec 13 17:18:40 2013 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:18:40 -0600 Subject: Next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference In-Reply-To: <52AAE0BB0200004000058890@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: Hi All, Meredith is not currently on the Siouan list. She has requested to be added. She had the call completed and sent it out to The Linguist List and was then planning on posting it here on The Siouan List, but Catherine beat her to it. I know that all future updates will be posted to both lists. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone in May! All the best, John On 12/13/13 3:26 AM, "Johannes Helmbrecht" wrote: >Dear Meredith Johnson, > >you announced the next Siouan and Caddoan Linguistics Conference on >LinguistList some days ago. This is fine, but the ones who are interested >most >in this conference and who are the ones who will attend the conference >more >likely are the people who communicate on a different list, the Siouan >List. >Personally, I do read the LinguistList, but I am not sure that all >Siouanists >do this. So, I would propose to post all information regarding the next >conference on the Siouan List too. If you don't know how to subscribe >please >ask Mark Awakuni-Swetland from the University of Nebraska in Lincoln. > >Many thanks >Johannes > > > >-- > >Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht >Lehrstuhl f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft >Fakult?t f?r Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften >Universit?t Regensburg >Universit?tsstrasse 31 >D-93053 Regensburg > >Tel. 0941/943-3388 >Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) >Fax. 0941/943-2429 > >Website: >www-avs.uni-regensburg.de > >E-mail: >johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de > >