From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Jul  9 22:35:15 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 22:35:15 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.223515.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130709/acb400e3/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 10 21:47:16 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 16:47:16 -0500
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DE508@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.164716.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Bob,

I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding
a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook
and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel
comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to
their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).
Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin,
whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q &
A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a
tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth
on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

Dave

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or
> other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and
> therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would
> greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this
> list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/faefd53a/attachment.html>

From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Wed Jul 10 20:35:50 2013
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:35:50 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DE508@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.203550.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for this Bob.
I too do not use Facebook so was unaware of this.
The SiouanList is only useful if it is used, enit?
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Questions on Facebook.

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/aa577059/attachment.html>

From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed Jul 10 22:06:45 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:06:45 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <D880B7C0-BFA8-40A6-AD56-CFD70A46F21C@mssu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.220645.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

That's very good news, Jill!  Do you have a URL for the Otoe texts that you could share?  (I googled and found the Rabbit and the Grasshopper, but no other texts.)

Thanks,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:29 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

Yep!  By the way,  if anyone would like to share copies of their papers from Ft Yates, I'd love to read what I missed.  Great to see your pics,  but I want to get your words, too.  Thanks, Rory, for already sharing with me!

Also, for those who are interested,  many of the Otoe materials by James Owen Dorsey have been digitized by the Smithsonian NAA, thanks to the Otoe-Missouria tribe which paid to get the material available.  There are several texts in addition to the published version of the Rabbit and the Grasshopper.  I was excited to find that out during the trip to  Breath of Life in D.C. this June.

By the way, if anyone has the opportunity to apply for  BoL in two years, I'd recommend it.  Very wonderful experience all the way around!!

Thanks,
Jill Greer



On Jul 10, 2013, at 1:35 PM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU<mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU>>
 wrote:


Thanks for this Bob.
I too do not use Facebook so was unaware of this.
The SiouanList is only useful if it is used, enit?
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Questions on Facebook.

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/2001ef11/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Jul 10 23:46:41 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:46:41 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRhrSWbLga0tPAM281P=pCw5ao2XUy3XgrJebsPCqCypA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.234641.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

Bob,

I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

Dave

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob



--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/3c8cea92/attachment.html>

From harristb at EOU.EDU  Thu Jul 11 00:45:41 2013
From: harristb at EOU.EDU (Tanya Harrison)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:45:41 -0700
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DEB3F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.174541.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff
from that here.

Thaks,
Tanya


On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't
> spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already
> splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've
> avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the
> rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get
> into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably
> the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington,
> Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back
> in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to;
> 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David
> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Questions on Facebook.
>
>  Bob,
>
> I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been
> corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page
> on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would
> not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been
> responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar
> to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding
> Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been
> intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other
> Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to
> communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really
> appropriate for an academic list.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>>  I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw
>> and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook
>> and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I
>> would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments
>> on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/f6c1b542/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 00:50:19 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:50:19 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugaton
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.175019.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Here is one of the things I've been trying to write out in Tutelo-Saponi. 

Healing Prayer
Healing Prayer:
Ha-hé: ho: -ya lé: (Come speak this here)
Ha-hé: ho: -ya né: (Come speak here)
Ha-hé: ho: -ya lé: (Come speak this here)
Ha-hé: ho: -ya né: (Come speak here)
Wai Oni:-ta ni:na-ki ne: pi:lahuk (Our Great Tree of Life thank you)
Oni: wá:yi: ha- hí: lÉ: oplá:ta –se (I am lighting the incense.)
Hinó:si: ha- hi: lÉ: oplá:ta –se (I am lighting the bow.)
Yi- ha: mąką lÉ: (For Healing)
Yi- kí:tǫ- pi:wa ha: mąką lÉ: hení:ku ao hatǫ lÉ: . (I am praying for his good healing.)

I am also wanting to add two lines to this that say, "I am praying for her good healing." and "I am praying for our good healing."
Is this the proper words and order?









 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/7132e004/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:02:59 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:02:59 -0700
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAFVLx2PdO2JDy99-V8HpiAGxTgbahOJM4fDCUkjVwFE6ipFGkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.180259.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I will try to start cross posting so that everyone will be in the loop. I certainly don't want to alienate anyone and we need all the help we can get. The main reason I started the facebook page for Tutelo-Saponi was because I had several people that wanted me to start one even though I have given out the information on how to sign up on the Siouan Linguistics List.

I also wanted to have some more interaction with other Tutelo-Saponi descendents so that we can begin utilizing the language in a more personal way. Mostly the page is about trying to translate that which we want to say in the language. Thanks to Dr. Rankin and David Kaufman I 've been attempting to re-tool the way I am attempting to learn the language. I want to also say thank you so very much to this lists creators and operators. If it were not for ya'll being here I wouldn't know or understand near as much about my people's language. Pi:lahuk


 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: Tanya Harrison <harristb at EOU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.
 


I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff from that here.
 
Thaks,
Tanya



On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.
>
>Bob
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
>Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic
 list).  I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q
 & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Bob
>>
>
>
>-- 
>David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>University of Kansas
>Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/14b6e66d/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:08:41 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:08:41 -0700
Subject: Mahk Jchi Tutelo-Saponi Song?
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.180841.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Mahk Jchi

Mahk jchi tahm
buooi yahmpi gidi
Mahk jchi taum
buooi kan spewa ebi
Mahk jchi tahm
buooi yahmpi gidi
Mahk jchi taum buooi kan spewa ebi

Mahmpi wah hoka yee monk
Tahond tani kiyee tiyee
Gee we-me eetiyee
Nanka yaht yamoonieah wajitse
Nanka yaht yamoonieah wajitse

Hey yah eh yah eh yah
Hey yah oh way-hee-tah-ah
Hey yah hey yah hey yah
Oh way-ee oh way-ee oh way-ee yah-ah
(Lyrics to Heart Beat Drum Song performed by Ulali
and appeared in Robbie Robertson's album "Robbie Robertson and the Red
Road Ensemble." It also appeared in the Music for the Native Americans, a
documentary done for PBS. If I'm not mistaken is was written either byLawrence A Dunmore or with
the help of...)
Here is the English translation as I have found it on-line:
A hundred years have passed
Yet I hear the distant beat of my father's drums.
I hear his drums throughout the land.
His beat I feel within my heart.
The drum shall beat
so my heart shall beat.
And I shall live a hundred thousand years.
 
I'd like to get an idea of the vocabulary here in this song
and see if we can find the corresponding vocabulary in Oliverio.




 
 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/2f395536/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:13:16 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:13:16 -0700
Subject: A Saponi Prayer
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.181316.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

A Saponi Prayer 

 Wakonta pi:lakuk –
(thank you Great Mystery)
 
Egonq Higun
pi:lahuk (thank you Grandmother) 

Ekuni-wa pi:lahuk
(thank you Grandfather)

Mona Ama Hena pi:lahuk (thank you Mother Earth)

Ati Mato pi:lahuk (thank you Father in the Sky
House)

Tokha Mi Kle pi:lahuk (thank you to the East)

Makle Akathe pi:lahuk (thank you to the South)

Tokha Mi Heyata pi:lahuk (thank you to the West)

Makle Sani pi:lahuk (thank you to the North)

Huk Maniankle Topa pi:lahuk (thank you All Four
Directions)

Oni Ni:na-ki ne-pu Topa pi:lahuk (the Four Trees of
Life)

Oni-ta Ni:na-ki ne pi:lahuk (thank you Great Tree
of life)

Tuhaklu-icici pi:lahuk (thank you Thunder Beings)

Topa Maklu-pu pi:lahuk (thank you to the four
Thunder Birds)

Kcimbai Nonee pi:lahuk (thank you to the Pipe Bowl)

Yihistik pi:lahuk (thank you to the Stems)

KcipaI pi:lahuk (thank you for the Sacred Pipe)

Mi pi:lahuk (thank you Sun)

Minosa pi:lahuk (thank you Moon)

Huk mi Yesa, Oho pi:lahuk (all my relations many
thanks)
Oka hoc ne de wa ha pi:lahuk, Oho pi:lahuk
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks; also a
protection against enemies)


After review with David Kaufman I corrected this to the following:

Wakǫta pi:lahuk (Our Great Mystery thank you)
Waikǫkak pi:lahuk (Our Grandfather thank you)
Waikǫ pi:lahuk (Our Grandmother thank you)
Waiamą hi:ną pi:lahuk (Our Mother Earth thank you)
Wai-a:ti mą:tǫ: pi:lahuk (Our Sky Father thank you)
Wai-to:kha: mį: kle: pi:lahuk (Our East thank you)
Waimąkle: aka:the pi:lahuk (Our South thank you)
Wai-to:kha: mį: hi:yąta pi:lahuk (Our West thank you)
Waimąkle: sani: pi:lahuk (Our North thank you)
Waihu:k maniakle: to:pa pi:lahuk (Our All Four
Winds/Directions thank you)
Waioni:-ta ni:na-ki ne: pi:lahuk (Our Great Tree of Life
thank you)
Waitu:hą:klu: pi:lahuk (Our Thunder Beings thank you)
Waito:pa mą klu:-pu pi:lahuk (Our Four Thunder Birds thank
you)
Waikcp̨a:i nǫni: pi:lahuk (Our Tobacco Pipe thank you)
Waihąksi-yihistik pi:lahuk (Our Pipestems thank you)
Waimoka kc̨pa:i pi:lahuk (Our Sacred pipe thank you)
Waimį: pi:lahuk (Our Sun thank you)
Waimį:no:sa: pi:lahuk (Our Moon thank you)
Hu:k waiyesą, Oho pi:lahuk (All our relations, many thanks)







 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/f020f71d/attachment.html>

From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:19:11 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:19:11 -0500
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAFVLx2PdO2JDy99-V8HpiAGxTgbahOJM4fDCUkjVwFE6ipFGkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.201911.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I could not agree more with Bob.  Let’s stick with the list so all of us older folks know ONE central location.  If younger folks want to spread and disseminate their stuff elsewhere, that is their choice.  That is the original idea of the list – a common place that all may come, knowing it is the base of the SCL.  Links to other places have usually been supplied for further research.   

From: Tanya Harrison 
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:45 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff from that here.

Thaks,
Tanya



On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

  Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.

  Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

  Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.



  Bob,

  I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

  Dave 



  On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

    I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

    Thanks,

    Bob





  -- 
  David Kaufman, Ph.C.
  University of Kansas
  Linguistic Anthropology

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/9d91f585/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jul 16 01:27:32 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 18:27:32 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUL.2013.182732.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The Biloxi word amą maasada means clay pot or bowl. See Page 92 of the Biloxi dictionary that David Kaufman wrote. What would be the Tutelo-Saponi equivalent of this? Would be something like amą mąsada? I'm trying to conjugate ancestor pot or ancestor bowl something like mąsada yesąng.


Can we get a break down of the words in Biloxi and other Siouan languages for bowl and pot?



 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130715/465a602e/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jul 16 02:32:09 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 19:32:09 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
In-Reply-To: <1373938052.16138.YahooMailNeo@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUL.2013.193209.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

 I am wondering what relationship to bowl the words for pipe bowl may have 'kcimbai nonee'. (See page 213 of Oliverio)

 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:27 PM
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
 


The Biloxi word amą maasada means clay pot or bowl. See Page 92 of the Biloxi dictionary that David Kaufman wrote. What would be the Tutelo-Saponi equivalent of this? Would be something like amą mąsada? I'm trying to conjugate ancestor pot or ancestor bowl something like mąsada yesąng.

Can we get a break down of the words in Biloxi and other Siouan languages for bowl and pot?



 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130715/509272d8/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 21 03:17:58 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:17:58 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUL.2013.221758.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw
Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now
retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week
with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
Director on Monday, August 5.

I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.

Cheers,
Dave

-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130720/42ae9ea1/attachment.html>

From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Sun Jul 21 03:47:05 2013
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:47:05 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjTAXNeQZqz2A8OH6wcKRAyXuPvQ=KwEy8=GDOs3g2Kmfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUL.2013.224705.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!

-Justin


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw
> Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now
> retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week
> with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
> Director on Monday, August 5.
>
> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130720/49ed9a8e/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 21 15:36:11 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 15:36:11 +0000
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
In-Reply-To: <1374417583.44825.YahooMailNeo@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.153611.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In Dhegiha langs they use "pity" or "take pity" for this concept.  Honga is also sometimes translated 'blessed'.

Bob

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/17993756/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 21 16:01:52 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 09:01:52 -0700
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
In-Reply-To: <r2skujyt9lmgrakoj69lsb55.1374420970036@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.090152.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Is there a word or something similar in Tutelo-Saponi for honga or to take pity?

 
 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
 


In Dhegiha langs they use "pity" or "take pity" for this concept.  Honga is also sometimes translated 'blessed'.

Bob

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:


I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.




 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/68501692/attachment.html>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 21 14:39:43 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 07:39:43 -0700
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.073943.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.




 
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/c7547102/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 21 16:43:17 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:43:17 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNa_K=toMr9GPWgcr6b+y+u_R2X3sgcL03xHaxWcqD+aKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.114317.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan Justin!

Dave

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:

> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>
> -Justin
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>
>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/549fdf1c/attachment.html>

From calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 12:29:56 2013
From: calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM (Cal Thunder Hawk)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 08:29:56 -0400
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRQqrNXwYZZpw0FzRR1OLWqNiZX-dbfZUvvuG0tXLr9FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.082956.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the Kaw
language and your willingness to generously share it with the indigenous
people is unique and exceptional.

Cal Thunder Hawk

<http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Wiblahan Justin!
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>>
>> -Justin
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>
>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>> University of Kansas
>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/9e318f46/attachment.html>

From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Mon Jul 22 13:18:34 2013
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:18:34 +0000
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAEzCUQBPumOsT3eJ1qDzpGHDPt-0_=+b1bjzoZDhEro=DHwMow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.131834.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

WikHage David,
E udoN!
Uthixide

mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu<mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
http://omahaponca.unl.edup

"TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: New Kaw Language Program Director

Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the indigenous people is unique and exceptional.

Cal Thunder Hawk

<http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com<mailto:dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Wiblahan Justin!

Dave


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu<mailto:jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu>> wrote:
Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!

-Justin


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com<mailto:dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as Director on Monday, August 5.

I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.

Cheers,
Dave

--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/c9e009c4/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 17:44:19 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:44:19 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAEzCUQBPumOsT3eJ1qDzpGHDPt-0_=+b1bjzoZDhEro=DHwMow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.124419.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan / Pi:lahuk Cal!

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Cal Thunder Hawk
<calthunderhawk at gmail.com>wrote:

> Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>
> Cal Thunder Hawk
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>>>
>>> -Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>
>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/ae1cfa1e/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 17:45:11 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:45:11 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <f20db16016b94ea7bf70ec800be7eb26@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.124511.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:

>  *WikHage David,
> E udoN!
> Uthixide
> *
>
> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>
> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>
>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>
>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>
>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>>>
>>>  -Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>
>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/8286d77f/attachment.html>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Wed Jul 24 22:40:02 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:40:02 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.174002.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear Siouanists,

I was hoping you could help me with two Chiwere questions.

First, I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
Chiwere materials, and I’m trying to figure out the title of Hamilton and
Irvin’s 1844 catechism, which in their orthography is WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.

My best guess for this is Wiwúdhe Gasúⁿ. Wiwúdhe is listed in Jimm’s
dictionary as meaning “extract or remove water from s.t.; draw out or
squeeze out moisture from an obj.” Gasúⁿ has a few different meanings along
the lines of “now; thus; finally,” etc. I can see a metaphorical connection
between wiwúdhe and a catechism because using a catechism as a method of
religious instruction through elicitation is a form of drawing out, though
of religious teachings, not water. So could this be a metaphorical
application/extension of wiwúdhe? Do other Siouan languages use a similar
word for catechism?

In case it helps, here’s a partial decoder ring to H&I’s orthography from
their grammar:

W = w as in ‘weep’
E = e as in ‘me’
V = I think this is a schwa sound. Here is H&I’s explanation: “<a>
sometimes appears to have the short broad sound of <a> in . . . ‘what’ . .
. but in such situations it so nearly resembles the sound of <a> in ‘far,’
(the difference being about as great as it is in the sound this same letter
has in the words ‘what,’ ‘fall’) that it is thought inexpedient to employ a
distinct character to represent this sound. In the first printing done at
the station, <v> was used to designate this sound.”
H = h as in ‘hat.’ (But note that H&I have no symbol for the guttural /x/,
and they sometimes use <h> in places that we write <x> today. For example,
they published a collection of prayers titled WV-RO-HÆ, which we write
Waróxi.)
Æ = a as in ‘fate’
K = k as in ‘keep.’ (But note that H&I’s orthography only has graphemes for
the voiceless stop series /p/, /t/, /k/, and /ch/, and they don’t have
separate graphemes for the voiced series or their voiceless unaspirated
allophones.)
J = sh as in ‘she’
U = u as in ‘true’

So, converted into modern orthography but preserving the ambiguous
translations, we have something like: wiw(a/u)(h/x)e(k/g)shu.

In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title
doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
text...

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
(wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion;
carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb
meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw
gághe.

Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either
the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect object
(“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s dictionary
identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft, flat
object.” I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the
answer, but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble
reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of
two morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE
meaning ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken?
I’m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

GLOSS[ make marks †ka 0.x >mark, scratch

GRAMCAT[ V
SEMCAT[

PSI[ *ká•xE

OTHREC[ M58 *káx (p.109)

PCH[ *-ka•xE
CR[ kaaxi, dúu- ‘scratch, make marks’ RG
CR[ páakaaxi ‘scratch’ DEC-97
HI[ ka•xE, ara- ‘scratch with toe’ J
HI[ ka•xE, nú- ‘make single scratch, mark off, measure’ J
HI[ ka•xE, pá- ‘make mark by dragging’ J

MA[ kax, ra- ‘to eat corn from cob’ H-104
MA[ írukaxka ‘willow rake’ H-106

PMV[ *ká•ɣE

PDA[ *káɣA
LA[ káɣa ‘make’ C
SV[ káɣa ‘make’
ST[ gáʕa PAS

PWC[ *ká•xE
CH[ gáxe ‘make marks’ Marsh
WI[ gáax ‘plan’ KM-311
WI[ gáx, wa- ‘write; draw; owe’ KM-3251

PDH[ *ká•ɣe
OP[ gá•xe ‘make’ C, RR {ɣ}(?)
KS[ gá•ɣe ‘make sth., do sth., pretend, cause’ RR
OS[ ká•ɣe ‘make’ RR
QU[ káɣe ‘make, cause’ RR
QU[ wakákaɣe ‘picture’ (JOD), ‘movie’ RR

CA[ kače ‘make’ KS < ka + caus. Sp.

COM[ Since PSI ‘make, do’ appears to have been |*ʔų•|, which became an
opaque element in numerous compounds, we suspect that this term originally
meant ‘make marks’ (cf. MRS and Chiwere) and has been broadened in several
languages to mean ‘make’. The CR, HI, and MA forms may actually belong with
‘scrape †ka ʔ.x >scratching noise, scraping noise, sweep’ q.v. All these
terms may be related by sound symbolism in any event.

GLOSS[ surround †xE

GRAMCAT[ Va
SEMCAT[

OTHREC[

PCH[ *xa
CR[ huupaxáa ‘socks, men’s’ GG-49
CR[ áaxaa ‘around’ GG-3
HI[ í•xa ‘net’ J
HI[ í•xaxihe ‘corral’ J
HI[ íʔaxa ‘surround’ J
HI[ hu•paxá ‘socks, stockings; lining of shoe’ J

WI[ hasá ‘fasten’ Lk 16.6 KM-693 (?)

BI[ †axí “axí” ‘they swarmed on’ R-172b (?)
BI[ †ačá “atcá” ‘to kill many’ R-259b (?)

OF[ †ą́sha “oⁿ´sxa” ‘hunt for game’ DS-328a (?)

COM[ Cf. ‘surround, head off, intercept †nąse’.

Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Best,
Saul
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130724/669c4c51/attachment.html>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Thu Jul 25 15:34:53 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 10:34:53 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroym3eU9Rv8S8vjEszvZwOt=OBR=wE9dOaQcx2s24nW=apw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUL.2013.103453.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Update: Sky Campbell from the Otoe-Missouria tribal language department
helpfully suggested wiwąxesų for the title of the catechism, from iwąxe
'he/she asks', which makes much more sense than wiwúdhe. Thanks, Sky!


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:

> Dear Siouanists,
>
> I was hoping you could help me with two Chiwere questions.
>
> First, I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
> Chiwere materials, and I’m trying to figure out the title of Hamilton and
> Irvin’s 1844 catechism, which in their orthography is WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.
>
> My best guess for this is Wiwúdhe Gasúⁿ. Wiwúdhe is listed in Jimm’s
> dictionary as meaning “extract or remove water from s.t.; draw out or
> squeeze out moisture from an obj.” Gasúⁿ has a few different meanings along
> the lines of “now; thus; finally,” etc. I can see a metaphorical connection
> between wiwúdhe and a catechism because using a catechism as a method of
> religious instruction through elicitation is a form of drawing out, though
> of religious teachings, not water. So could this be a metaphorical
> application/extension of wiwúdhe? Do other Siouan languages use a similar
> word for catechism?
>
> In case it helps, here’s a partial decoder ring to H&I’s orthography from
> their grammar:
>
> W = w as in ‘weep’
> E = e as in ‘me’
> V = I think this is a schwa sound. Here is H&I’s explanation: “<a>
> sometimes appears to have the short broad sound of <a> in . . . ‘what’ . .
> . but in such situations it so nearly resembles the sound of <a> in ‘far,’
> (the difference being about as great as it is in the sound this same letter
> has in the words ‘what,’ ‘fall’) that it is thought inexpedient to employ a
> distinct character to represent this sound. In the first printing done at
> the station, <v> was used to designate this sound.”
> H = h as in ‘hat.’ (But note that H&I have no symbol for the guttural /x/,
> and they sometimes use <h> in places that we write <x> today. For example,
> they published a collection of prayers titled WV-RO-HÆ, which we write
> Waróxi.)
> Æ = a as in ‘fate’
> K = k as in ‘keep.’ (But note that H&I’s orthography only has graphemes
> for the voiceless stop series /p/, /t/, /k/, and /ch/, and they don’t have
> separate graphemes for the voiced series or their voiceless unaspirated
> allophones.)
> J = sh as in ‘she’
> U = u as in ‘true’
>
> So, converted into modern orthography but preserving the ambiguous
> translations, we have something like: wiw(a/u)(h/x)e(k/g)shu.
>
> In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title
> doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
> text...
>
> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
> (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
> Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion;
> carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb
> meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw
> gághe.
>
> Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either
> the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect object
> (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s dictionary
> identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft, flat
> object.” I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the
> answer, but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble
> reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of
> two morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE
> meaning ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken?
> I’m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>
> GLOSS[ make marks †ka 0.x >mark, scratch
>
> GRAMCAT[ V
> SEMCAT[
>
> PSI[ *ká•xE
>
> OTHREC[ M58 *káx (p.109)
>
> PCH[ *-ka•xE
> CR[ kaaxi, dúu- ‘scratch, make marks’ RG
> CR[ páakaaxi ‘scratch’ DEC-97
> HI[ ka•xE, ara- ‘scratch with toe’ J
> HI[ ka•xE, nú- ‘make single scratch, mark off, measure’ J
> HI[ ka•xE, pá- ‘make mark by dragging’ J
>
> MA[ kax, ra- ‘to eat corn from cob’ H-104
> MA[ írukaxka ‘willow rake’ H-106
>
> PMV[ *ká•ɣE
>
> PDA[ *káɣA
> LA[ káɣa ‘make’ C
> SV[ káɣa ‘make’
> ST[ gáʕa PAS
>
> PWC[ *ká•xE
> CH[ gáxe ‘make marks’ Marsh
> WI[ gáax ‘plan’ KM-311
> WI[ gáx, wa- ‘write; draw; owe’ KM-3251
>
> PDH[ *ká•ɣe
> OP[ gá•xe ‘make’ C, RR {ɣ}(?)
> KS[ gá•ɣe ‘make sth., do sth., pretend, cause’ RR
> OS[ ká•ɣe ‘make’ RR
> QU[ káɣe ‘make, cause’ RR
> QU[ wakákaɣe ‘picture’ (JOD), ‘movie’ RR
>
> CA[ kače ‘make’ KS < ka + caus. Sp.
>
> COM[ Since PSI ‘make, do’ appears to have been |*ʔų•|, which became an
> opaque element in numerous compounds, we suspect that this term originally
> meant ‘make marks’ (cf. MRS and Chiwere) and has been broadened in several
> languages to mean ‘make’. The CR, HI, and MA forms may actually belong with
> ‘scrape †ka ʔ.x >scratching noise, scraping noise, sweep’ q.v. All these
> terms may be related by sound symbolism in any event.
>
> GLOSS[ surround †xE
>
> GRAMCAT[ Va
> SEMCAT[
>
> OTHREC[
>
> PCH[ *xa
> CR[ huupaxáa ‘socks, men’s’ GG-49
> CR[ áaxaa ‘around’ GG-3
> HI[ í•xa ‘net’ J
> HI[ í•xaxihe ‘corral’ J
> HI[ íʔaxa ‘surround’ J
> HI[ hu•paxá ‘socks, stockings; lining of shoe’ J
>
> WI[ hasá ‘fasten’ Lk 16.6 KM-693 (?)
>
> BI[ †axí “axí” ‘they swarmed on’ R-172b (?)
> BI[ †ačá “atcá” ‘to kill many’ R-259b (?)
>
> OF[ †ą́sha “oⁿ´sxa” ‘hunt for game’ DS-328a (?)
>
> COM[ Cf. ‘surround, head off, intercept †nąse’.
>
> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>
> Best,
> Saul
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130725/68167475/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Jul 27 17:44:46 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 17:44:46 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroym3eU9Rv8S8vjEszvZwOt=OBR=wE9dOaQcx2s24nW=apw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUL.2013.174446.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /kšų/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /ɣ/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw gághe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaaɣe/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaaɣe/.

> Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect object (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft, flat object.”

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaaɣe/.  /gaaɣe/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaaɣe/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaaɣe/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaaɣe/.  One outcome was /giaaɣe/ and the other was /giiɣe/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE meaning ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken? I’m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-ɣe/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130727/fe7963ef/attachment.html>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 28 16:59:41 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:59:41 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOg52WaSZ_qwkz5LtxYvEJzK4MS9G-aK-=2kNcEEVjtbsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.115941.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan Bryan!

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Congratulations Dave!
>
>
> 2013/7/22 David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>
>
>> Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  *WikHage David,
>>> E udoN!
>>> Uthixide
>>> *
>>>
>>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
>>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
>>> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>>>
>>> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>>>
>>>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with
>>> the Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
>>> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>>>
>>>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>>>
>>>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>>>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still
>>>>> very much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!),
>>>>> and I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions
>>>>> or concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>>>>>
>>>>>  -Justin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of
>>>>>> the Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my
>>>>>> predecessor, is now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I
>>>>>> spent the past week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will
>>>>>> be moving from Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my
>>>>>> position as Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>>>> University of Kansas
>>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> ***********************************************************
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/5182bde9/attachment.html>

From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jul 28 16:44:39 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:44:39 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjT1=KLSHM2X4oxM0+hVXBOM8FFA1nsC2R8q4Xomfi050A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.114439.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations Dave!


2013/7/22 David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>

> Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>  *WikHage David,
>> E udoN!
>> Uthixide
>> *
>>
>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
>> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>>
>> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>>
>>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
>> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
>> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>>
>>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>>
>>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washkáⁿ, kóya!
>>>>
>>>>  -Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>>> University of Kansas
>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>> University of Kansas
>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/45ed61cc/attachment.html>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Sun Jul 28 18:22:08 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:22:08 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236E580D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.132208.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last
syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal
stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I
tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say šų without first
relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the šų. If
this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general
approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what
they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and Irvin's
decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it
sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious)
proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  > I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
> Chiwere materials,
>
> Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their
> collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably
> try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious
> documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's
> Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of
> finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the
> rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through
> the document(s).
>
> In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a
> problem.
>
> > WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.
>
> I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last
> syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be
> /kšų/, whatever that portends for analysis.
>
> > Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?
>
> I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.
>
> > V = I think this is a schwa sound.
>
> That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.
> V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean
> and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.
>
> So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.
> Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.
>
>    > In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title
> doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
> text...
>
> No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into
> place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /ɣ/ along with /b,
> d, j, g/ don't help, of course.
>
> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
> (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
> Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion;
> carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb
> meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw
> gághe.
>
> First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaaɣe/, in its basic formthroughout Mississippi Valley
> Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words
> so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a
> mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaaɣe/.
>
> > Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being
> either the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect
> object (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s
> dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft,
> flat object.”
>
> Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaaɣe/.  /gaaɣe/ is
> one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly
> this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaaɣe/
> 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaaɣe/ 'make', but she
> had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaaɣe/.  One outcome was /giaaɣe/
> and the other was /giiɣe/.
>
> > I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer,
> but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble reading it,
> so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of two
> morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE meaning
> ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken? I’m
> pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>
> If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY
> analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term
> was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was
> 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/,
> would normally come *outside* an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole
> analysis of /ka-aa-ɣe/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would beessentially ungrammatical.
>
>
> > Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>
> Well, for what it's worth*. . . .*
>
> Bob
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/0a4e32f0/attachment.html>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Sun Jul 28 19:05:45 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:05:45 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.140545.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

P.S. Regarding Dhegiha materials at the Newberry, indeed there are! As I
just discovered the other day, Edward Ayer purchased (some? all? of) James
Constantine Pilling's book collection from the BAE/Smithsonian, which is
why when I went to the National Anthropological Archives, I found lists of
books Dorsey said he was sending back to Pilling but not the books
themselves. Here are a few catalogue records that may pique your interest:

Edward McKenney's 1850 "Omahaw Primer":
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=4&ti=1,4&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=VOl5fc9YW9cJ8xxsRbNmH&SEQ=20130728135851&SID=16

William Hamilton's 1868 Omaha translations and hymns:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=KEbDz2Y9061QYsSrJOXz&SEQ=20130728135317&SID=14

(N.B. Rory, this may be relevant to the presentation you gave at the 2012
Siouan Conference in Lawrence on the microfilm of that Omaha manuscript at
the Nebraska State Historical Society.)

William Hamilton's 1887 Omaha hymns:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2&ti=1,2&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=g7NhUlLF2_lUFqqjL6r3g&SEQ=20130728135626&SID=15

Dorsey's 1873 "Ponka ABC wa-bá-ru":
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search%5FArg=Ponca%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=CnBA98bJSmYe8mtJ6tvXg&BROWSE=3&HC=1&SID=19

William Montgomery's 1834 Osage first book:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search%5FArg=Osage%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=l6nIdSz6ui7WDTTVez-wz&SEQ=20130728140222&SID=20

In my experience, the best way to search the catalogue is to search
"subject" for "___ language" and then put as many possibilities into the
blank as you can think of. E.g., "Chiwere language," "Oto(e) language,"
"Iowa(y) language," etc.




On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:

> Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last
> syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal
> stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I
> tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say šų without
> first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the šų.
> If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the
> general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to
> write what they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and
> Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa
> since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious)
> proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>>  > I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
>> Chiwere materials,
>>
>> Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their
>> collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably
>> try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious
>> documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's
>> Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of
>> finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the
>> rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through
>> the document(s).
>>
>> In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a
>> problem.
>>
>> > WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.
>>
>> I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last
>> syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be
>> /kšų/, whatever that portends for analysis.
>>
>> > Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?
>>
>> I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.
>>
>> > V = I think this is a schwa sound.
>>
>> That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.
>> V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean
>> and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.
>>
>> So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.
>> Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.
>>
>>    > In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the
>> title doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the
>> whole text...
>>
>> No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into
>> place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /ɣ/ along with /b,
>> d, j, g/ don't help, of course.
>>
>> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
>> (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
>> Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion;
>> carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb
>> meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw
>> gághe.
>>
>> First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaaɣe/, in its basic formthroughout Mississippi Valley
>> Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words
>> so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a
>> mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaaɣe/.
>>
>> > Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being
>> either the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect
>> object (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s
>> dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft,
>> flat object.”
>>
>> Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaaɣe/.  /gaaɣe/ is
>> one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly
>> this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaaɣe/
>> 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaaɣe/ 'make', but
>> she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaaɣe/.  One outcome
>> was /giaaɣe/ and the other was /giiɣe/.
>>
>> > I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer,
>> but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble reading it,
>> so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of two
>> morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE meaning
>> ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken? I’m
>> pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>>
>> If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY
>> analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this
>> term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was
>> 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/,
>> would normally come *outside* an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole
>> analysis of /ka-aa-ɣe/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would beessentially ungrammatical.
>>
>>
>> > Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>>
>> Well, for what it's worth*. . . .*
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/b461ba42/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:36:46 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:36:46 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.203646.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Saul,

> Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop.

Yes, I've heard that in my few attempts to transcribe Chiwere words from tape.  In my experience, it is usually the reflex of an earlier K that was part of a /kšų/ cluster.  I suspect that in the authors' time the K was still there.  I don't know the meaning of this particular morpheme, but if there is a Dakotan equivalent, I bet it has the /kš/ cluster.

> I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say šų without first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the šų. If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what they heard as best they could. In that context,

> Hamilton and Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious) proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.

Yeah.  It's funny.  On the one hand, they quite correctly identified their v with the phoneme /a/, but at the same time they lost the ability to transcribe the distinctively short vowel as different from the long /aa/.

Bob


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
> I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /kšų/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /ɣ/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw gághe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaaɣe/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaaɣe/.

> Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect object (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft, flat object.”

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaaɣe/.  /gaaɣe/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaaɣe/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaaɣe/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaaɣe/.  One outcome was /giaaɣe/ and the other was /giiɣe/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE meaning ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken? I’m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-ɣe/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/ae9d26f4/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:42:19 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:42:19 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroyk___wH5cD6Dm_KfeLRszmWBQpHR-Ogj4Y=VZy+j34XNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.204219.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Saul,

Many thanks for checking on those.  The Newberry is a terrific resource.  I remember driving up there to look for Romanian dialect materials in the mid 60s when I was a grad student down in Hyde Park at the U. of Chicago.  Very impressive library.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:05 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: 2 Chiwere questions

P.S. Regarding Dhegiha materials at the Newberry, indeed there are! As I just discovered the other day, Edward Ayer purchased (some? all? of) James Constantine Pilling's book collection from the BAE/Smithsonian, which is why when I went to the National Anthropological Archives, I found lists of books Dorsey said he was sending back to Pilling but not the books themselves. Here are a few catalogue records that may pique your interest:

Edward McKenney's 1850 "Omahaw Primer": https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=4&ti=1,4&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=VOl5fc9YW9cJ8xxsRbNmH&SEQ=20130728135851&SID=16

William Hamilton's 1868 Omaha translations and hymns: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=KEbDz2Y9061QYsSrJOXz&SEQ=20130728135317&SID=14

(N.B. Rory, this may be relevant to the presentation you gave at the 2012 Siouan Conference in Lawrence on the microfilm of that Omaha manuscript at the Nebraska State Historical Society.)

William Hamilton's 1887 Omaha hymns: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2&ti=1,2&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=g7NhUlLF2_lUFqqjL6r3g&SEQ=20130728135626&SID=15

Dorsey's 1873 "Ponka ABC wa-bá-ru": https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search%5FArg=Ponca%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=CnBA98bJSmYe8mtJ6tvXg&BROWSE=3&HC=1&SID=19

William Montgomery's 1834 Osage first book: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search%5FArg=Osage%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=l6nIdSz6ui7WDTTVez-wz&SEQ=20130728140222&SID=20

In my experience, the best way to search the catalogue is to search "subject" for "___ language" and then put as many possibilities into the blank as you can think of. E.g., "Chiwere language," "Oto(e) language," "Iowa(y) language," etc.




On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu<mailto:sschwart at princeton.edu>> wrote:
Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say šų without first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the šų. If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious) proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
> I’m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-HÆ-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /kšų/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I’ve had this much trouble with the title doesn’t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /ɣ/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (wawágaxe) or writing (wagáxe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm’s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning “scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create” and as an independent verb meaning “construct; build; make; create” cognate to the Omaha gáxe and Kaw gághe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaaɣe/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaaɣe/.

> Gáxe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix “by pushing or striking” or the indirect object (“to/for”), the a- looks like the positional “on,” and Jimm’s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to “lifting a soft, flat object.”

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaaɣe/.  /gaaɣe/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaaɣe/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaaɣe/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaaɣe/.  One outcome was /giaaɣe/ and the other was /giiɣe/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I’m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere gáxe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan ká meaning ‘make marks’ and proto-Siouan xE meaning ‘surround’? So then is reading the gá in gáxe as gi + a mistaken? I’m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-ɣe/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/9fa7da02/attachment.html>

From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jul 28 20:43:16 2013
From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:43:16 -0700
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.134316.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

'Preglottalization'?

Dave

> Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/7789d39f/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:47:51 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:47:51 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <8CF934F9-6F00-4EB2-870C-D9CEAA144B56@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.204751.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

For at least some Chiwere speakers a /k/ preceding a fricative became a glottal stop (compare Dakotan).  So, yes, preglottalization.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:43 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: 2 Chiwere questions

'Preglottalization'?

Dave

Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-HÆ-KJU: šų in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this,

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/80ad1aa6/attachment.html>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Jul  9 22:35:15 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 22:35:15 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JUL.2013.223515.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130709/acb400e3/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jul 10 21:47:16 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 16:47:16 -0500
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DE508@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.164716.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Bob,

I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding
a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook
and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel
comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to
their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).
Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin,
whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q &
A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a
tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth
on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

Dave

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or
> other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and
> therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would
> greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this
> list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/faefd53a/attachment.htm>

From mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu  Wed Jul 10 20:35:50 2013
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:35:50 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DE508@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.203550.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for this Bob.
I too do not use Facebook so was unaware of this.
The SiouanList is only useful if it is used, enit?
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Questions on Facebook.

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/aa577059/attachment.htm>

From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed Jul 10 22:06:45 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:06:45 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <D880B7C0-BFA8-40A6-AD56-CFD70A46F21C@mssu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.220645.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

That's very good news, Jill!  Do you have a URL for the Otoe texts that you could share?  (I googled and found the Rabbit and the Grasshopper, but no other texts.)

Thanks,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:29 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

Yep!  By the way,  if anyone would like to share copies of their papers from Ft Yates, I'd love to read what I missed.  Great to see your pics,  but I want to get your words, too.  Thanks, Rory, for already sharing with me!

Also, for those who are interested,  many of the Otoe materials by James Owen Dorsey have been digitized by the Smithsonian NAA, thanks to the Otoe-Missouria tribe which paid to get the material available.  There are several texts in addition to the published version of the Rabbit and the Grasshopper.  I was excited to find that out during the trip to  Breath of Life in D.C. this June.

By the way, if anyone has the opportunity to apply for  BoL in two years, I'd recommend it.  Very wonderful experience all the way around!!

Thanks,
Jill Greer



On Jul 10, 2013, at 1:35 PM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU<mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU>>
 wrote:


Thanks for this Bob.
I too do not use Facebook so was unaware of this.
The SiouanList is only useful if it is used, enit?
Mark Awakuni-Swetland



From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Questions on Facebook.

I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob



This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/2001ef11/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Jul 10 23:46:41 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:46:41 +0000
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRhrSWbLga0tPAM281P=pCw5ao2XUy3XgrJebsPCqCypA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.234641.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

Bob,

I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

Dave

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

Thanks,

Bob



--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/3c8cea92/attachment.htm>

From harristb at EOU.EDU  Thu Jul 11 00:45:41 2013
From: harristb at EOU.EDU (Tanya Harrison)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:45:41 -0700
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236DEB3F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.174541.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff
from that here.

Thaks,
Tanya


On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't
> spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already
> splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've
> avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the
> rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get
> into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably
> the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington,
> Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back
> in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to;
> 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David
> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Questions on Facebook.
>
>  Bob,
>
> I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been
> corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page
> on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would
> not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been
> responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar
> to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding
> Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been
> intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other
> Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to
> communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really
> appropriate for an academic list.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>>  I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw
>> and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook
>> and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I
>> would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments
>> on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/f6c1b542/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 00:50:19 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:50:19 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugaton
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.175019.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Here is one of the things I've been trying to write out in Tutelo-Saponi.?

Healing Prayer
Healing Prayer:
Ha-h?: ho: -ya l?: (Come speak this here)
Ha-h?: ho: -ya n?: (Come speak here)
Ha-h?: ho: -ya l?: (Come speak this here)
Ha-h?: ho: -ya n?: (Come speak here)
Wai Oni:-ta ni:na-ki ne: pi:lahuk (Our Great Tree of Life thank you)
Oni: w?:yi: ha- h?: l?: opl?:ta ?se (I am lighting the incense.)
Hin?:si: ha- hi: l?: opl?:ta ?se (I am lighting the bow.)
Yi- ha: m?k? l?: (For Healing)
Yi- k?:t?- pi:wa ha: m?k? l?: hen?:ku ao hat? l?: . (I am praying for his good healing.)

I am also wanting to add two lines to this that say, "I am praying for her good healing." and "I am praying for our good healing."
Is this the proper words and order?









?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/7132e004/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:02:59 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:02:59 -0700
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAFVLx2PdO2JDy99-V8HpiAGxTgbahOJM4fDCUkjVwFE6ipFGkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.180259.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I will try to start cross posting so that everyone will be in the loop. I certainly don't want to alienate anyone and we need all the help we can get. The main reason I started the facebook page for Tutelo-Saponi was because I had several people that wanted me to start one even though I have given out the information on how to sign up on the Siouan Linguistics List.

I also wanted to have some more interaction with other Tutelo-Saponi descendents so that we can begin utilizing the language in a more personal way. Mostly the page is about trying to translate that which we want to say in the language. Thanks to Dr. Rankin and David Kaufman I 've been attempting to re-tool the way I am attempting to learn the language. I want to also say thank you so very much to this lists creators and operators. If it were not for ya'll being here I wouldn't know or understand near as much about my people's language. Pi:lahuk


?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: Tanya Harrison <harristb at EOU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.
 


I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff from that here.
?
Thaks,
Tanya



On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

Don't sweat the small stuff.? I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.? My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.? I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.? They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.? I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.? I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.
>
>Bob
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
>Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic
 list).? I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).? Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.? I have not been intentionally doing Q
 & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.? Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.? Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.? That is, after all, what it is for.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Bob
>>
>
>
>-- 
>David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>University of Kansas
>Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/14b6e66d/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:08:41 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:08:41 -0700
Subject: Mahk Jchi Tutelo-Saponi Song?
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.180841.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Mahk Jchi

Mahk jchi tahm
buooi yahmpi gidi
Mahk jchi taum
buooi kan spewa ebi
Mahk jchi tahm
buooi yahmpi gidi
Mahk jchi taum buooi kan spewa ebi

Mahmpi wah hoka yee monk
Tahond tani kiyee tiyee
Gee we-me eetiyee
Nanka yaht yamoonieah wajitse
Nanka yaht yamoonieah wajitse

Hey yah eh yah eh yah
Hey yah oh way-hee-tah-ah
Hey yah hey yah hey yah
Oh way-ee oh way-ee oh way-ee yah-ah
(Lyrics to Heart Beat Drum Song performed by Ulali
and appeared in Robbie Robertson's album "Robbie Robertson and the Red
Road Ensemble." It also appeared in the Music for the Native Americans, a
documentary done for PBS. If I'm not mistaken is was written either byLawrence A Dunmore?or with
the help of...)
Here is the English translation as I have found it on-line:
A hundred years have passed
Yet I hear the distant beat of my father's drums.
I hear his drums throughout the land.
His beat I feel within my heart.
The drum shall beat
so my heart shall beat.
And I shall live a hundred thousand years.
?
I'd like to get an idea of the vocabulary here in this song
and see if we can find the corresponding vocabulary in Oliverio.




?
?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/2f395536/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:13:16 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:13:16 -0700
Subject: A Saponi Prayer
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.181316.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

A Saponi Prayer?

 Wakonta pi:lakuk ?
(thank you Great Mystery)
?
Egonq Higun
pi:lahuk (thank you Grandmother)?

Ekuni-wa pi:lahuk
(thank you Grandfather)

Mona Ama Hena pi:lahuk (thank you Mother Earth)

Ati Mato pi:lahuk (thank you Father in the Sky
House)

Tokha Mi Kle pi:lahuk (thank you to the East)

Makle Akathe pi:lahuk (thank you to the South)

Tokha Mi Heyata pi:lahuk (thank you to the West)

Makle Sani pi:lahuk (thank you to the North)

Huk Maniankle Topa pi:lahuk (thank you All Four
Directions)

Oni Ni:na-ki ne-pu Topa pi:lahuk (the Four Trees of
Life)

Oni-ta Ni:na-ki ne pi:lahuk (thank you Great Tree
of life)

Tuhaklu-icici pi:lahuk (thank you Thunder Beings)

Topa Maklu-pu pi:lahuk (thank you to the four
Thunder Birds)

Kcimbai Nonee pi:lahuk (thank you to the Pipe Bowl)

Yihistik pi:lahuk (thank you to the Stems)

KcipaI pi:lahuk (thank you for the Sacred Pipe)

Mi pi:lahuk (thank you Sun)

Minosa pi:lahuk (thank you Moon)

Huk mi Yesa, Oho pi:lahuk (all my relations many
thanks)
Oka hoc ne de wa ha pi:lahuk, Oho pi:lahuk
(thank you all my realtions and many thanks; also a
protection against enemies)


After review with David Kaufman I corrected this to the following:

Wak?ta pi:lahuk (Our Great Mystery thank you)
Waik?kak pi:lahuk (Our Grandfather thank you)
Waik? pi:lahuk (Our Grandmother thank you)
Waiam? hi:n? pi:lahuk (Our Mother Earth thank you)
Wai-a:ti m?:t?: pi:lahuk (Our Sky Father thank you)
Wai-to:kha: m?: kle: pi:lahuk (Our East thank you)
Waim?kle: aka:the pi:lahuk (Our South thank you)
Wai-to:kha: m?: hi:y?ta pi:lahuk (Our West thank you)
Waim?kle: sani: pi:lahuk (Our North thank you)
Waihu:k maniakle: to:pa pi:lahuk (Our All Four
Winds/Directions thank you)
Waioni:-ta ni:na-ki ne: pi:lahuk (Our Great Tree of Life
thank you)
Waitu:h?:klu: pi:lahuk (Our Thunder Beings thank you)
Waito:pa m? klu:-pu pi:lahuk (Our Four Thunder Birds thank
you)
Waikcp?a:i n?ni: pi:lahuk (Our Tobacco Pipe thank you)
Waih?ksi-yihistik pi:lahuk (Our Pipestems thank you)
Waimoka kc?pa:i pi:lahuk (Our Sacred pipe thank you)
Waim?: pi:lahuk (Our Sun thank you)
Waim?:no:sa: pi:lahuk (Our Moon thank you)
Hu:k waiyes?, Oho pi:lahuk (All our relations, many thanks)







?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/f020f71d/attachment.htm>

From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Thu Jul 11 01:19:11 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:19:11 -0500
Subject: Questions on Facebook.
In-Reply-To: <CAFVLx2PdO2JDy99-V8HpiAGxTgbahOJM4fDCUkjVwFE6ipFGkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.JUL.2013.201911.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I could not agree more with Bob.  Let?s stick with the list so all of us older folks know ONE central location.  If younger folks want to spread and disseminate their stuff elsewhere, that is their choice.  That is the original idea of the list ? a common place that all may come, knowing it is the base of the SCL.  Links to other places have usually been supplied for further research.   

From: Tanya Harrison 
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:45 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.

I study Tutelo and don't do facebook, so would be good to post Tutelo stuff from that here.

Thaks,
Tanya



On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

  Don't sweat the small stuff.  I'm just eager to make sure we don't spread ourselves out over more than one forum.  My linguistics is already splattered out over too many web sites, listserves, etc., etc.  I've avoided joining Facebook, Myspace, Linkedin, Researchgate and all the rest.  They ask for personal information that I've been reluctant to get into.  I don't suppose I have any business complaining, since I'm probably the only Siouanist other than Catherine with files in Moscow, Washington, Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade and probably others dating from my work back in the '60s.  I just can't keep track of as much as I used to be able to; 16 Siouan languages is a gracious plenty, thank you very much.

  Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:47 PM
  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

  Subject: Re: Questions on Facebook.



  Bob,

  I'm not sure what Q & A you're talking about, but I have been corresponding a bit with members of the Tutelo-Saponi group who have a page on Facebook and are not on the Siouan List (and most of them probably would not feel comfortable being part of an academic list).  I have been responding to their questions about the Tutelo language (which is similar to Biloxi).  Other than this, I may have mentioned a few things regarding Kaw to Justin, whom I'm friends with on Facebook.  I have not been intentionally doing Q & A off the list in order not to involve other Siouanists - Facebook is a tool for communication and "friends" do tend to communicate back and forth on different topics, much of it not really appropriate for an academic list.

  Dave 



  On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

    I understand that some of you guys are conducting Q & A about Kaw and/or other Siouan languages on Facebook.  Some of us are not on Facebook and therefore cannot access other peoples' Facebook pages.  Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you could post your questions and comments on this list so we can all join in.  That is, after all, what it is for.

    Thanks,

    Bob





  -- 
  David Kaufman, Ph.C.
  University of Kansas
  Linguistic Anthropology

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130710/9d91f585/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jul 16 01:27:32 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 18:27:32 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUL.2013.182732.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The Biloxi word am? maasada means clay pot or bowl. See Page 92 of the Biloxi dictionary that?David Kaufman?wrote. What would be the Tutelo-Saponi equivalent of this? Would be something like am? m?sada? I'm trying to conjugate ancestor pot or ancestor bowl something like m?sada yes?ng.


Can we get a break down of the words in Biloxi and other Siouan languages for bowl and pot?



?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130715/465a602e/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jul 16 02:32:09 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 19:32:09 -0700
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
In-Reply-To: <1373938052.16138.YahooMailNeo@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.15.JUL.2013.193209.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

?I am wondering what relationship to bowl the words for pipe bowl may have 'kcimbai nonee'. (See page 213 of Oliverio)

?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:27 PM
Subject: Tutelo-Saponi Conjugation For Bowl or Pot
 


The Biloxi word am? maasada means clay pot or bowl. See Page 92 of the Biloxi dictionary that?David Kaufman?wrote. What would be the Tutelo-Saponi equivalent of this? Would be something like am? m?sada? I'm trying to conjugate ancestor pot or ancestor bowl something like m?sada yes?ng.

Can we get a break down of the words in Biloxi and other Siouan languages for bowl and pot?



?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130715/509272d8/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 21 03:17:58 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:17:58 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUL.2013.221758.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw
Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now
retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week
with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
Director on Monday, August 5.

I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.

Cheers,
Dave

-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130720/42ae9ea1/attachment.htm>

From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Sun Jul 21 03:47:05 2013
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:47:05 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjTAXNeQZqz2A8OH6wcKRAyXuPvQ=KwEy8=GDOs3g2Kmfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JUL.2013.224705.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!

-Justin


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw
> Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now
> retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week
> with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
> Director on Monday, August 5.
>
> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130720/49ed9a8e/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 21 15:36:11 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 15:36:11 +0000
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
In-Reply-To: <1374417583.44825.YahooMailNeo@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.153611.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In Dhegiha langs they use "pity" or "take pity" for this concept.  Honga is also sometimes translated 'blessed'.

Bob

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/17993756/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 21 16:01:52 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 09:01:52 -0700
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
In-Reply-To: <r2skujyt9lmgrakoj69lsb55.1374420970036@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.090152.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Is there a word or something similar in Tutelo-Saponi for honga or to take pity?

?
?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
 


In Dhegiha langs they use "pity" or "take pity" for this concept.? Honga is also sometimes translated 'blessed'.

Bob

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:


I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.




?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/68501692/attachment.htm>

From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 21 14:39:43 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 07:39:43 -0700
Subject: The Word For Bless and Blessing In Siouan Languages
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.073943.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I wanted to get a breakdown of the word for bless and blessing in Siouan languages in order to be able to conjugate the word in Tutelo-Saponi.




?
Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR


Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle


?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?


"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/c7547102/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 21 16:43:17 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:43:17 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNa_K=toMr9GPWgcr6b+y+u_R2X3sgcL03xHaxWcqD+aKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.JUL.2013.114317.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan Justin!

Dave

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:

> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>
> -Justin
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>
>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130721/549fdf1c/attachment.htm>

From calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 12:29:56 2013
From: calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM (Cal Thunder Hawk)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 08:29:56 -0400
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRQqrNXwYZZpw0FzRR1OLWqNiZX-dbfZUvvuG0tXLr9FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.082956.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the Kaw
language and your willingness to generously share it with the indigenous
people is unique and exceptional.

Cal Thunder Hawk

<http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Wiblahan Justin!
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>>
>> -Justin
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>
>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>> University of Kansas
>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/9e318f46/attachment.htm>

From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Mon Jul 22 13:18:34 2013
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:18:34 +0000
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAEzCUQBPumOsT3eJ1qDzpGHDPt-0_=+b1bjzoZDhEro=DHwMow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.131834.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

WikHage David,
E udoN!
Uthixide

mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu<mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
http://omahaponca.unl.edup

"TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: New Kaw Language Program Director

Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the indigenous people is unique and exceptional.

Cal Thunder Hawk

<http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com<mailto:dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Wiblahan Justin!

Dave


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu<mailto:jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu>> wrote:
Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!

-Justin


On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com<mailto:dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as Director on Monday, August 5.

I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.

Cheers,
Dave

--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/c9e009c4/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 17:44:19 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:44:19 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAEzCUQBPumOsT3eJ1qDzpGHDPt-0_=+b1bjzoZDhEro=DHwMow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.124419.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan / Pi:lahuk Cal!

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Cal Thunder Hawk
<calthunderhawk at gmail.com>wrote:

> Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>
> Cal Thunder Hawk
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>>>
>>> -Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>
>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/ae1cfa1e/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jul 22 17:45:11 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:45:11 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <f20db16016b94ea7bf70ec800be7eb26@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.JUL.2013.124511.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:

>  *WikHage David,
> E udoN!
> Uthixide
> *
>
> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>
> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>
>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>
>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>
>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>>>
>>>  -Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>
>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130722/8286d77f/attachment.htm>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Wed Jul 24 22:40:02 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:40:02 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
Message-ID: <WED.24.JUL.2013.174002.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear Siouanists,

I was hoping you could help me with two Chiwere questions.

First, I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
Chiwere materials, and I?m trying to figure out the title of Hamilton and
Irvin?s 1844 catechism, which in their orthography is WE-WV-H?-KJU.

My best guess for this is Wiw?dhe Gas??. Wiw?dhe is listed in Jimm?s
dictionary as meaning ?extract or remove water from s.t.; draw out or
squeeze out moisture from an obj.? Gas?? has a few different meanings along
the lines of ?now; thus; finally,? etc. I can see a metaphorical connection
between wiw?dhe and a catechism because using a catechism as a method of
religious instruction through elicitation is a form of drawing out, though
of religious teachings, not water. So could this be a metaphorical
application/extension of wiw?dhe? Do other Siouan languages use a similar
word for catechism?

In case it helps, here?s a partial decoder ring to H&I?s orthography from
their grammar:

W = w as in ?weep?
E = e as in ?me?
V = I think this is a schwa sound. Here is H&I?s explanation: ?<a>
sometimes appears to have the short broad sound of <a> in . . . ?what? . .
. but in such situations it so nearly resembles the sound of <a> in ?far,?
(the difference being about as great as it is in the sound this same letter
has in the words ?what,? ?fall?) that it is thought inexpedient to employ a
distinct character to represent this sound. In the first printing done at
the station, <v> was used to designate this sound.?
H = h as in ?hat.? (But note that H&I have no symbol for the guttural /x/,
and they sometimes use <h> in places that we write <x> today. For example,
they published a collection of prayers titled WV-RO-H?, which we write
War?xi.)
? = a as in ?fate?
K = k as in ?keep.? (But note that H&I?s orthography only has graphemes for
the voiceless stop series /p/, /t/, /k/, and /ch/, and they don?t have
separate graphemes for the voiced series or their voiceless unaspirated
allophones.)
J = sh as in ?she?
U = u as in ?true?

So, converted into modern orthography but preserving the ambiguous
translations, we have something like: wiw(a/u)(h/x)e(k/g)shu.

In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title
doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
text...

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
(waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion;
carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb
meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw
g?ghe.

G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either
the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect object
(?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s dictionary
identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft, flat
object.? I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the
answer, but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble
reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of
two morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE
meaning ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken?
I?m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

GLOSS[ make marks ?ka 0.x >mark, scratch

GRAMCAT[ V
SEMCAT[

PSI[ *k??xE

OTHREC[ M58 *k?x (p.109)

PCH[ *-ka?xE
CR[ kaaxi, d?u- ?scratch, make marks? RG
CR[ p?akaaxi ?scratch? DEC-97
HI[ ka?xE, ara- ?scratch with toe? J
HI[ ka?xE, n?- ?make single scratch, mark off, measure? J
HI[ ka?xE, p?- ?make mark by dragging? J

MA[ kax, ra- ?to eat corn from cob? H-104
MA[ ?rukaxka ?willow rake? H-106

PMV[ *k???E

PDA[ *k??A
LA[ k??a ?make? C
SV[ k??a ?make?
ST[ g??a PAS

PWC[ *k??xE
CH[ g?xe ?make marks? Marsh
WI[ g?ax ?plan? KM-311
WI[ g?x, wa- ?write; draw; owe? KM-3251

PDH[ *k???e
OP[ g??xe ?make? C, RR {?}(?)
KS[ g???e ?make sth., do sth., pretend, cause? RR
OS[ k???e ?make? RR
QU[ k??e ?make, cause? RR
QU[ wak?ka?e ?picture? (JOD), ?movie? RR

CA[ ka?e ?make? KS < ka + caus. Sp.

COM[ Since PSI ?make, do? appears to have been |*???|, which became an
opaque element in numerous compounds, we suspect that this term originally
meant ?make marks? (cf. MRS and Chiwere) and has been broadened in several
languages to mean ?make?. The CR, HI, and MA forms may actually belong with
?scrape ?ka ?.x >scratching noise, scraping noise, sweep? q.v. All these
terms may be related by sound symbolism in any event.

GLOSS[ surround ?xE

GRAMCAT[ Va
SEMCAT[

OTHREC[

PCH[ *xa
CR[ huupax?a ?socks, men?s? GG-49
CR[ ?axaa ?around? GG-3
HI[ ??xa ?net? J
HI[ ??xaxihe ?corral? J
HI[ ??axa ?surround? J
HI[ hu?pax? ?socks, stockings; lining of shoe? J

WI[ has? ?fasten? Lk 16.6 KM-693 (?)

BI[ ?ax? ?ax?? ?they swarmed on? R-172b (?)
BI[ ?a?? ?atc?? ?to kill many? R-259b (?)

OF[ ???sha ?o??sxa? ?hunt for game? DS-328a (?)

COM[ Cf. ?surround, head off, intercept ?n?se?.

Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Best,
Saul
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130724/669c4c51/attachment.htm>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Thu Jul 25 15:34:53 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 10:34:53 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroym3eU9Rv8S8vjEszvZwOt=OBR=wE9dOaQcx2s24nW=apw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.JUL.2013.103453.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Update: Sky Campbell from the Otoe-Missouria tribal language department
helpfully suggested wiw?xes? for the title of the catechism, from iw?xe
'he/she asks', which makes much more sense than wiw?dhe. Thanks, Sky!


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:

> Dear Siouanists,
>
> I was hoping you could help me with two Chiwere questions.
>
> First, I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
> Chiwere materials, and I?m trying to figure out the title of Hamilton and
> Irvin?s 1844 catechism, which in their orthography is WE-WV-H?-KJU.
>
> My best guess for this is Wiw?dhe Gas??. Wiw?dhe is listed in Jimm?s
> dictionary as meaning ?extract or remove water from s.t.; draw out or
> squeeze out moisture from an obj.? Gas?? has a few different meanings along
> the lines of ?now; thus; finally,? etc. I can see a metaphorical connection
> between wiw?dhe and a catechism because using a catechism as a method of
> religious instruction through elicitation is a form of drawing out, though
> of religious teachings, not water. So could this be a metaphorical
> application/extension of wiw?dhe? Do other Siouan languages use a similar
> word for catechism?
>
> In case it helps, here?s a partial decoder ring to H&I?s orthography from
> their grammar:
>
> W = w as in ?weep?
> E = e as in ?me?
> V = I think this is a schwa sound. Here is H&I?s explanation: ?<a>
> sometimes appears to have the short broad sound of <a> in . . . ?what? . .
> . but in such situations it so nearly resembles the sound of <a> in ?far,?
> (the difference being about as great as it is in the sound this same letter
> has in the words ?what,? ?fall?) that it is thought inexpedient to employ a
> distinct character to represent this sound. In the first printing done at
> the station, <v> was used to designate this sound.?
> H = h as in ?hat.? (But note that H&I have no symbol for the guttural /x/,
> and they sometimes use <h> in places that we write <x> today. For example,
> they published a collection of prayers titled WV-RO-H?, which we write
> War?xi.)
> ? = a as in ?fate?
> K = k as in ?keep.? (But note that H&I?s orthography only has graphemes
> for the voiceless stop series /p/, /t/, /k/, and /ch/, and they don?t have
> separate graphemes for the voiced series or their voiceless unaspirated
> allophones.)
> J = sh as in ?she?
> U = u as in ?true?
>
> So, converted into modern orthography but preserving the ambiguous
> translations, we have something like: wiw(a/u)(h/x)e(k/g)shu.
>
> In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title
> doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
> text...
>
> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
> (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
> Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion;
> carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb
> meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw
> g?ghe.
>
> G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either
> the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect object
> (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s dictionary
> identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft, flat
> object.? I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the
> answer, but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble
> reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of
> two morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE
> meaning ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken?
> I?m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>
> GLOSS[ make marks ?ka 0.x >mark, scratch
>
> GRAMCAT[ V
> SEMCAT[
>
> PSI[ *k??xE
>
> OTHREC[ M58 *k?x (p.109)
>
> PCH[ *-ka?xE
> CR[ kaaxi, d?u- ?scratch, make marks? RG
> CR[ p?akaaxi ?scratch? DEC-97
> HI[ ka?xE, ara- ?scratch with toe? J
> HI[ ka?xE, n?- ?make single scratch, mark off, measure? J
> HI[ ka?xE, p?- ?make mark by dragging? J
>
> MA[ kax, ra- ?to eat corn from cob? H-104
> MA[ ?rukaxka ?willow rake? H-106
>
> PMV[ *k???E
>
> PDA[ *k??A
> LA[ k??a ?make? C
> SV[ k??a ?make?
> ST[ g??a PAS
>
> PWC[ *k??xE
> CH[ g?xe ?make marks? Marsh
> WI[ g?ax ?plan? KM-311
> WI[ g?x, wa- ?write; draw; owe? KM-3251
>
> PDH[ *k???e
> OP[ g??xe ?make? C, RR {?}(?)
> KS[ g???e ?make sth., do sth., pretend, cause? RR
> OS[ k???e ?make? RR
> QU[ k??e ?make, cause? RR
> QU[ wak?ka?e ?picture? (JOD), ?movie? RR
>
> CA[ ka?e ?make? KS < ka + caus. Sp.
>
> COM[ Since PSI ?make, do? appears to have been |*???|, which became an
> opaque element in numerous compounds, we suspect that this term originally
> meant ?make marks? (cf. MRS and Chiwere) and has been broadened in several
> languages to mean ?make?. The CR, HI, and MA forms may actually belong with
> ?scrape ?ka ?.x >scratching noise, scraping noise, sweep? q.v. All these
> terms may be related by sound symbolism in any event.
>
> GLOSS[ surround ?xE
>
> GRAMCAT[ Va
> SEMCAT[
>
> OTHREC[
>
> PCH[ *xa
> CR[ huupax?a ?socks, men?s? GG-49
> CR[ ?axaa ?around? GG-3
> HI[ ??xa ?net? J
> HI[ ??xaxihe ?corral? J
> HI[ ??axa ?surround? J
> HI[ hu?pax? ?socks, stockings; lining of shoe? J
>
> WI[ has? ?fasten? Lk 16.6 KM-693 (?)
>
> BI[ ?ax? ?ax?? ?they swarmed on? R-172b (?)
> BI[ ?a?? ?atc?? ?to kill many? R-259b (?)
>
> OF[ ???sha ?o??sxa? ?hunt for game? DS-328a (?)
>
> COM[ Cf. ?surround, head off, intercept ?n?se?.
>
> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>
> Best,
> Saul
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130725/68167475/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Jul 27 17:44:46 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 17:44:46 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroym3eU9Rv8S8vjEszvZwOt=OBR=wE9dOaQcx2s24nW=apw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JUL.2013.174446.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-H?-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /k??/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /?/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw g?ghe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaa?e/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaa?e/.

> G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect object (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft, flat object.?

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaa?e/.  /gaa?e/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaa?e/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaa?e/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaa?e/.  One outcome was /giaa?e/ and the other was /gii?e/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE meaning ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken? I?m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-?e/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130727/fe7963ef/attachment.htm>

From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jul 28 16:59:41 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:59:41 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOg52WaSZ_qwkz5LtxYvEJzK4MS9G-aK-=2kNcEEVjtbsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.115941.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Wiblahan Bryan!

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Congratulations Dave!
>
>
> 2013/7/22 David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>
>
>> Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  *WikHage David,
>>> E udoN!
>>> Uthixide
>>> *
>>>
>>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
>>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
>>> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>>>
>>> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>>>
>>>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with
>>> the Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
>>> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>>>
>>>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>>>
>>>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>>>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still
>>>>> very much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!),
>>>>> and I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions
>>>>> or concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>>>>>
>>>>>  -Justin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of
>>>>>> the Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my
>>>>>> predecessor, is now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I
>>>>>> spent the past week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will
>>>>>> be moving from Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my
>>>>>> position as Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>>>> University of Kansas
>>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>> University of Kansas
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>> University of Kansas
>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> ***********************************************************
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/5182bde9/attachment.htm>

From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Jul 28 16:44:39 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:44:39 -0500
Subject: New Kaw Language Program Director
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjT1=KLSHM2X4oxM0+hVXBOM8FFA1nsC2R8q4Xomfi050A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.114439.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Congratulations Dave!


2013/7/22 David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>

> Wiblahan / Mahalo Mark!
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Mark Awakuni-Swetland <
> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>  *WikHage David,
>> E udoN!
>> Uthixide
>> *
>>
>> mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu
>> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
>> http://omahaponca.unl.edup
>>
>> "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" abiama winisi akHa.
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Cal Thunder Hawk
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 7:29 AM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>> *Subject:* Re: New Kaw Language Program Director
>>
>>  Congratulations, David Kaufman.  Your enthusiasm for your work with the
>> Kaw language and your willingness to generously share it with the
>> indigenous people is unique and exceptional.
>>
>>  Cal Thunder Hawk
>>
>>  <http://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Wiblahan Justin!
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Mcbride, Justin <
>>> jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Congrats, Dave! Good luck in your new job. It is one that is still very
>>>> much near to my heart (emotionally, of course, but also spatially!), and
>>>> I'd be glad to help out in any way I can if you ever have any questions or
>>>> concerns--or if you just need a conversation partner. To adapt a simple
>>>> saying I've heard over here in Osage land to Kansa: Washk??, k?ya!
>>>>
>>>>  -Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a note to let everyone know that I am now the new Director of the
>>>>> Kaw Language Program in Kaw City, OK.  Linda Cumberland, my predecessor, is
>>>>> now retired, and I wish her the best in her retirement.  I spent the past
>>>>> week with Linda in training down at the Kaw Nation.  I will be moving from
>>>>> Lawrence, KS to Ponca City, OK on July 31 and will resume my position as
>>>>> Director on Monday, August 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am excited about this opportunity to help the Kaw Nation with their
>>>>> language and culture revitalization efforts.  I will, however, also still
>>>>> be enrolled as a student at KU and working to finish my dissertation, The
>>>>> Lower Mississippi Valley as a Language Area, in my off hours, hoping to
>>>>> defend next Spring.  I will continue working with Bob Rankin not only as a
>>>>> member of my dissertation committee but also in connection with his years
>>>>> of work on the Kaw (Kanza) language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>>>> University of Kansas
>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
>>> University of Kansas
>>> Linguistic Anthropology
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/45ed61cc/attachment.htm>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Sun Jul 28 18:22:08 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:22:08 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236E580D@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.132208.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last
syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal
stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I
tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say ?? without first
relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the ??. If
this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general
approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what
they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and Irvin's
decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it
sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious)
proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  > I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
> Chiwere materials,
>
> Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their
> collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably
> try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious
> documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's
> Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of
> finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the
> rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through
> the document(s).
>
> In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a
> problem.
>
> > WE-WV-H?-KJU.
>
> I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last
> syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be
> /k??/, whatever that portends for analysis.
>
> > Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?
>
> I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.
>
> > V = I think this is a schwa sound.
>
> That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.
> V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean
> and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.
>
> So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.
> Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.
>
>    > In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title
> doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole
> text...
>
> No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into
> place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /?/ along with /b,
> d, j, g/ don't help, of course.
>
> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
> (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
> Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion;
> carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb
> meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw
> g?ghe.
>
> First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaa?e/, in its basic formthroughout Mississippi Valley
> Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words
> so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a
> mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaa?e/.
>
> > G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being
> either the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect
> object (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s
> dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft,
> flat object.?
>
> Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaa?e/.  /gaa?e/ is
> one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly
> this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaa?e/
> 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaa?e/ 'make', but she
> had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaa?e/.  One outcome was /giaa?e/
> and the other was /gii?e/.
>
> > I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer,
> but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble reading it,
> so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of two
> morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE meaning
> ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken? I?m
> pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>
> If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY
> analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term
> was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was
> 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/,
> would normally come *outside* an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole
> analysis of /ka-aa-?e/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would beessentially ungrammatical.
>
>
> > Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>
> Well, for what it's worth*. . . .*
>
> Bob
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/0a4e32f0/attachment.htm>

From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Sun Jul 28 19:05:45 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:05:45 -0500
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.140545.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

P.S. Regarding Dhegiha materials at the Newberry, indeed there are! As I
just discovered the other day, Edward Ayer purchased (some? all? of) James
Constantine Pilling's book collection from the BAE/Smithsonian, which is
why when I went to the National Anthropological Archives, I found lists of
books Dorsey said he was sending back to Pilling but not the books
themselves. Here are a few catalogue records that may pique your interest:

Edward McKenney's 1850 "Omahaw Primer":
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=4&ti=1,4&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=VOl5fc9YW9cJ8xxsRbNmH&SEQ=20130728135851&SID=16

William Hamilton's 1868 Omaha translations and hymns:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=KEbDz2Y9061QYsSrJOXz&SEQ=20130728135317&SID=14

(N.B. Rory, this may be relevant to the presentation you gave at the 2012
Siouan Conference in Lawrence on the microfilm of that Omaha manuscript at
the Nebraska State Historical Society.)

William Hamilton's 1887 Omaha hymns:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2&ti=1,2&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=g7NhUlLF2_lUFqqjL6r3g&SEQ=20130728135626&SID=15

Dorsey's 1873 "Ponka ABC wa-b?-ru":
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search%5FArg=Ponca%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=CnBA98bJSmYe8mtJ6tvXg&BROWSE=3&HC=1&SID=19

William Montgomery's 1834 Osage first book:
https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search%5FArg=Osage%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=l6nIdSz6ui7WDTTVez-wz&SEQ=20130728140222&SID=20

In my experience, the best way to search the catalogue is to search
"subject" for "___ language" and then put as many possibilities into the
blank as you can think of. E.g., "Chiwere language," "Oto(e) language,"
"Iowa(y) language," etc.




On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:

> Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last
> syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal
> stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I
> tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say ?? without
> first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the ??.
> If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the
> general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to
> write what they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and
> Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa
> since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious)
> proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:
>
>>  > I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their
>> Chiwere materials,
>>
>> Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their
>> collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably
>> try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious
>> documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's
>> Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of
>> finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the
>> rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through
>> the document(s).
>>
>> In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a
>> problem.
>>
>> > WE-WV-H?-KJU.
>>
>> I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last
>> syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be
>> /k??/, whatever that portends for analysis.
>>
>> > Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?
>>
>> I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.
>>
>> > V = I think this is a schwa sound.
>>
>> That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.
>> V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean
>> and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.
>>
>> So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.
>> Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.
>>
>>    > In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the
>> title doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the
>> whole text...
>>
>> No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into
>> place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /?/ along with /b,
>> d, j, g/ don't help, of course.
>>
>> Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book
>> (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes.
>> Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion;
>> carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb
>> meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw
>> g?ghe.
>>
>> First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaa?e/, in its basic formthroughout Mississippi Valley
>> Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words
>> so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a
>> mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaa?e/.
>>
>> > G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being
>> either the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect
>> object (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s
>> dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft,
>> flat object.?
>>
>> Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaa?e/.  /gaa?e/ is
>> one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly
>> this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaa?e/
>> 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaa?e/ 'make', but
>> she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaa?e/.  One outcome
>> was /giaa?e/ and the other was /gii?e/.
>>
>> > I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer,
>> but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble reading it,
>> so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of two
>> morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE meaning
>> ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken? I?m
>> pasting the relevant entries I could find below.
>>
>> If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY
>> analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this
>> term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was
>> 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/,
>> would normally come *outside* an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole
>> analysis of /ka-aa-?e/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would beessentially ungrammatical.
>>
>>
>> > Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!
>>
>> Well, for what it's worth*. . . .*
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/b461ba42/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:36:46 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:36:46 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.203646.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Saul,

> Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop.

Yes, I've heard that in my few attempts to transcribe Chiwere words from tape.  In my experience, it is usually the reflex of an earlier K that was part of a /k??/ cluster.  I suspect that in the authors' time the K was still there.  I don't know the meaning of this particular morpheme, but if there is a Dakotan equivalent, I bet it has the /k?/ cluster.

> I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say ?? without first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the ??. If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what they heard as best they could. In that context,

> Hamilton and Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious) proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.

Yeah.  It's funny.  On the one hand, they quite correctly identified their v with the phoneme /a/, but at the same time they lost the ability to transcribe the distinctively short vowel as different from the long /aa/.

Bob


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
> I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-H?-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /k??/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /?/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw g?ghe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaa?e/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaa?e/.

> G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect object (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft, flat object.?

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaa?e/.  /gaa?e/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaa?e/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaa?e/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaa?e/.  One outcome was /giaa?e/ and the other was /gii?e/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE meaning ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken? I?m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-?e/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/ae9d26f4/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:42:19 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:42:19 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroyk___wH5cD6Dm_KfeLRszmWBQpHR-Ogj4Y=VZy+j34XNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.204219.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Saul,

Many thanks for checking on those.  The Newberry is a terrific resource.  I remember driving up there to look for Romanian dialect materials in the mid 60s when I was a grad student down in Hyde Park at the U. of Chicago.  Very impressive library.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:05 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: 2 Chiwere questions

P.S. Regarding Dhegiha materials at the Newberry, indeed there are! As I just discovered the other day, Edward Ayer purchased (some? all? of) James Constantine Pilling's book collection from the BAE/Smithsonian, which is why when I went to the National Anthropological Archives, I found lists of books Dorsey said he was sending back to Pilling but not the books themselves. Here are a few catalogue records that may pique your interest:

Edward McKenney's 1850 "Omahaw Primer": https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=4&ti=1,4&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=VOl5fc9YW9cJ8xxsRbNmH&SEQ=20130728135851&SID=16

William Hamilton's 1868 Omaha translations and hymns: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=KEbDz2Y9061QYsSrJOXz&SEQ=20130728135317&SID=14

(N.B. Rory, this may be relevant to the presentation you gave at the 2012 Siouan Conference in Lawrence on the microfilm of that Omaha manuscript at the Nebraska State Historical Society.)

William Hamilton's 1887 Omaha hymns: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2&ti=1,2&Search%5FArg=omaha%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=g7NhUlLF2_lUFqqjL6r3g&SEQ=20130728135626&SID=15

Dorsey's 1873 "Ponka ABC wa-b?-ru": https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search%5FArg=Ponca%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=CnBA98bJSmYe8mtJ6tvXg&BROWSE=3&HC=1&SID=19

William Montgomery's 1834 Osage first book: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search%5FArg=Osage%20language&Search%5FCode=SUBJ%5F&CNT=20&PID=l6nIdSz6ui7WDTTVez-wz&SEQ=20130728140222&SID=20

In my experience, the best way to search the catalogue is to search "subject" for "___ language" and then put as many possibilities into the blank as you can think of. E.g., "Chiwere language," "Oto(e) language," "Iowa(y) language," etc.




On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu<mailto:sschwart at princeton.edu>> wrote:
Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, but if I tense my throat to make a glottal stop and then try to say ?? without first relaxing those muscles, then I hear a distinct /k/ sound before the ??. If this explanation for the <K> is correct then it also fits with the general approach the missionaries took to writing Chiwere, which just to write what they heard as best they could. In that context, Hamilton and Irvin's decision in their later publications to stop using <v> for schwa since it sounds so close to /a/ is strikes me as a rare and (subconscious) proto-phonemic moment in the history of Chiwere missionary linguistics.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu<mailto:rankin at ku.edu>> wrote:
> I?m here at the Newberry Library in Chicago going through their Chiwere materials,

Saul, did you notice whether they had any Dhegiha materials in their collections?  I dare say their catalog is now on-line, so I should probably try to check for myself.  Doing philology on those early religious documents can be a challenge.  I took a try at it for the Smithsonian's Handbook using Biblical passages in Osage.  Mostly it's just a matter of finding words you know the pronunciation of and using them as key to the rest of the vocabulary.  If you're lucky that'll work all the way through the document(s).

In your catechism the lack of distinct symbols for nasal vowels poses a problem.

> WE-WV-H?-KJU.

I agree with Sky except that we need to explain the K of the last syllable.  It seems to me that this final syllable will almost have to be /k??/, whatever that portends for analysis.

> Do other Siouan languages use a similar word for catechism?

I should know that, but I don't.  Perhaps Randy has an idea about this.

> V = I think this is a schwa sound.

That was common mission usage in the early 19th century in the Southeast.  V still has this reading in Creek orthography today.  In both Muskogean and Siouan languages this is nearly always an allophone of short /a/.

So V will always be short /a/, while A may be either long or short /a/.  Presumably this can be either the oral or nasal vowel.

> In any case, the fact that I?ve had this much trouble with the title doesn?t bode well for my plan to one day go through and decode the whole text...

No, once you get going and "over the hump"  it will pretty much fall into place.  Lack of symbols for nasal vowels and /x/ and /?/ along with /b, d, j, g/ don't help, of course.

Second, I was wondering if the -gaxe part of the Chiwere word for book (waw?gaxe) or writing (wag?xe) can be broken down into smaller morphemes. Jimm?s dictionary lists =gaxe as a verbal root meaning ?scratch; fashion; carve; engrave with an instrument; create? and as an independent verb meaning ?construct; build; make; create? cognate to the Omaha g?xe and Kaw g?ghe.

First, it has the long vowel and the gamma, /gaa?e/, in its basic form throughout Mississippi Valley Siouan.  Second, it's always tempting to try to decompose polysyllabic words so that every syllable is a morpheme.  We all do it, but it is often a mistake.  I don't think we can do it with /gaa?e/.

> G?xe looks like it could be composed of gi + a + xe, with gi- being either the instrumental prefix ?by pushing or striking? or the indirect object (?to/for?), the a- looks like the positional ?on,? and Jimm?s dictionary identifies =xe as a verbal root that refers to ?lifting a soft, flat object.?

Actually, the better analysis there would be /gi + gaa?e/.  /gaa?e/ is one of those few verbs in which initial /g/ is lost in the dative.  Mostly this happens with /ga-/ 'by striking' verbs, but it also happens with /gaa?e/ 'make, do'.  Thus, in Kaw, Mrs. Rowe had the verb /gaa?e/ 'make', but she had competing forms for the outcome of /gi + gaa?e/.  One outcome was /giaa?e/ and the other was /gii?e/.

> I have a feeling the Comparative Siouan Dictionary may have the answer, but this is my first time using it, and I?m having some trouble reading it, so to speak. It is suggesting that Chiwere g?xe is composed of two morphemes, proto-Siouan k? meaning ?make marks? and proto-Siouan xE meaning ?surround?? So then is reading the g? in g?xe as gi + a mistaken? I?m pasting the relevant entries I could find below.

If the CSD says that, I think it's wrong (which is to say, it wasn't MY analysis of the word).  While it is possible that the */ka-/ of this term was originally 'by striking', I strongly doubt that the rest was 'surround'.  'Dig' might be a better guess.  Any locative prefix, /aa-/, would normally come outside an instrumental /ka-/, so the whole analysis of /ka-aa-?e/ as 'to scratch ON by striking' would be essentially ungrammatical.

> Any insight you could share would be much appreciated!

Well, for what it's worth. . . .

Bob


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/9fa7da02/attachment.htm>

From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jul 28 20:43:16 2013
From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:43:16 -0700
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <CAHnroynLamRgqyUm+JWPqq9oyg6WmGJtGT5vj+qu0MgUtyfN0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.134316.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

'Preglottalization'?

Dave

> Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this, 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/7789d39f/attachment.htm>

From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Jul 28 20:47:51 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:47:51 +0000
Subject: 2 Chiwere questions
In-Reply-To: <8CF934F9-6F00-4EB2-870C-D9CEAA144B56@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JUL.2013.204751.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

For at least some Chiwere speakers a /k/ preceding a fricative became a glottal stop (compare Dakotan).  So, yes, preglottalization.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:43 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: 2 Chiwere questions

'Preglottalization'?

Dave

Thanks for weighing in, Bob! Regarding accounting for the <K> in the last syllable of WE-WV-H?-KJU: ?? in Chiwere is often preceded by a glottal stop. I don't know any of the technical phonetic terms for this,

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130728/80ad1aa6/attachment.htm>