From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Sat Jun 1 22:42:42 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 12:42:42 -1000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBE93@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Aloha nā Siouanists, I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ʻsmellʻ but used as the main verb: MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. Grass.sweet the smells-good. ʻSweet grass smells good.ʻ But that one is off my memory cause I canʻt find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what thatʻs worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. With aloha, Ardis On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. > > In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. > > Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) > > *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) > > If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. > > At this point, we have: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. > > where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. > > It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: > > sokta:ki > mukta:ki > oto: > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. > > Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? > > Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? > > Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. > > The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. > > might mean > > “I love to smell sweetgrass.” > > rather than > > “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. > > Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as > > yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” > > Biloxi has a comparable word: > > ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: > > ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. > > I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) > > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Here is what Meuse had for -i : > > > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by > final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. > > The word "the" is a definite article correct? > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka > > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. > > I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. > > I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. > > The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Verb at end of sentence > > Adjectives follow nouns > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > > > I = mi (subject/noun) > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) > > The = i- (definite article) > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > > Of = qekego (preposition) > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) > > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 1 23:30:42 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:30:42 +0000 Subject: Siouan Conference. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm afraid I'm going to miss the Conference this year. I didn't get started early enough trying to arrange my dialysis at Ft. Yates and I'd have to commute 110 mi. round trip to/from Bismarck twice, and that was a little too much to face. Next year for sure. In addition, I wasn't really happy with the couple of papers I've been working on, though I suppose I could have cobbled something together. The program looks great and I'm especially interested in seeing the papers on Chiwere. It's so under-represented in the literature. I hope I can prevail on participants to share .pdf copies of their work with the Siouan Archive (and me). We're trying to arrange to get some of the new Kaw dictionaries to the meeting, but if we're unable to they can be ordered from Linda via the mails. Hoist a brewski for me. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at unl.edu Sat Jun 1 23:16:51 2013 From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:16:51 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha, Ardis! It’s good to hear from you. You raise a good question. I was kind of wondering too if we would need an article to wrap that up as a noun phrase, or if keeping it as one long verb phrase was better. I think xtaathe may require a noun as an object, but I wonder if that would also be the case with iNudoN? In English, the difference I’m thinking of is the one between ‘I like the smell of sweetgrass’ (noun object, with an article) and ‘I like to smell sweetgrass’ (chained verb phrase, with ‘sweetgrass’, not ‘smell’, as the object). Unfortunately, I don’t think any of us know Tutelo well enough to be sure how to construct it! I hope you and your mother are both doing well. Will you be able to make it to the Siouanist conference this year? All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Aloha nā Siouanists, I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ʻsmellʻ but used as the main verb: MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. Grass.sweet the smells-good. ʻSweet grass smells good.ʻ But that one is off my memory cause I canʻt find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what thatʻs worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. With aloha, Ardis On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman > wrote: From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 1 23:17:55 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:17:55 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha nā Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Sun Jun 2 02:48:11 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 16:48:11 -1000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8428106FB@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Aloha Rory!, Canʻt use iNudoN with smell here... it would mean something like ʻI like to eat the smell of sweet grass.ʻ Momʻll hopefully be at the conference, but I couldnʻt swing it. Are you gonna make it? I wish you all a fabulous conference full of learning and insight. Me ke aloha pumehana (with warmest aloha), Ardis On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Aloha, Ardis! > > It’s good to hear from you. You raise a good question. I was kind of wondering too if we would need an article to wrap that up as a noun phrase, or if keeping it as one long verb phrase was better. I think xtaathe may require a noun as an object, but I wonder if that would also be the case with iNudoN? In English, the difference I’m thinking of is the one between ‘I like the smell of sweetgrass’ (noun object, with an article) and ‘I like to smell sweetgrass’ (chained verb phrase, with ‘sweetgrass’, not ‘smell’, as the object). Unfortunately, I don’t think any of us know Tutelo well enough to be sure how to construct it! > > I hope you and your mother are both doing well. Will you be able to make it to the Siouanist conference this year? > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:43 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Aloha nā Siouanists, > > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like > ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. > > I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ʻsmellʻ but used as the main verb: > > MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. > Grass.sweet the smells-good. > ʻSweet grass smells good.ʻ > > But that one is off my memory cause I canʻt find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what thatʻs worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. > > With aloha, > Ardis > > > On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. > > In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. > > Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) > > *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) > > If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. > > At this point, we have: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. > > where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. > > It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: > > sokta:ki > mukta:ki > oto: > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. > > Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? > > Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? > > Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. > > The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. > > might mean > > “I love to smell sweetgrass.” > > rather than > > “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. > > Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as > > yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” > > Biloxi has a comparable word: > > ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: > > ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. > > I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) > > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Here is what Meuse had for -i : > > > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by > final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. > > The word "the" is a definite article correct? > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka > > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. > > I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. > > I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. > > The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Verb at end of sentence > > Adjectives follow nouns > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > > > I = mi (subject/noun) > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) > > The = i- (definite article) > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > > Of = qekego (preposition) > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) > > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7466 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun Jun 2 12:44:42 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 13:44:42 +0100 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CE085@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Siouan articles are fantastic.  I once wrote an article about articles (no pun intended), which some of you may not have seen as it came out in a british periodical Ingham, B. (2003) ‘The function of the post-nominal element ki~k’un in Lakota’ inTransactions of the Philological Society vol 101 iii p.371-410. ISSN 0079 1636. It doesn't add much to what we already know, but I suggested that the 'articles' had something of the nature of a topicalizer. Anyway have a great time at the Siouanists and I hope to see you all again one day. Actually I will be in the Mila Hanska Makhoche my self while the conference is on, but over in Connecticut.  Best wishes to all. Bruce ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L." To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2013, 0:17 Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Aloha nā Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha.  In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN   tHe  xtaathe. > Grass.sweet    it.smells the  I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ  (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too.  The sentence feels awkward to me without.   Interesting, Ardis.  I bet Tutelo does work the same way.  That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern.  But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass?  Sounds like a loan-translation from English.  The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'.  I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jun 2 16:22:38 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 11:22:38 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1370177082.90099.YahooMailNeo@web171401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting - I have found this to be the case with Biloxi -yaN, which also seems to be a type of topicalizing definite article and is often used after first mention in Biloxi texts. Dave On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:44 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Siouan articles are fantastic. I once wrote an article about articles (no > pun intended), which some of you may not have seen as it came out in a > british periodical > Ingham, B. (2003) ‘The function of the post-nominal element ki~k’un in > Lakota’ in* Transactions of the Philological Society* vol 101 iii > p.371-410. ISSN 0079 1636. > It doesn't add much to what we already know, but I suggested that the > 'articles' had something of the nature of a topicalizer. > Anyway have a great time at the Siouanists and I hope to see you all again > one day. Actually I will be in the Mila Hanska Makhoche my self while the > conference is on, but over in Connecticut. Best wishes to all. > > Bruce > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Sent:* Sunday, 2 June 2013, 0:17 > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Aloha nā Siouanists, > > > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with > my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning > as a subordinator: > > > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like > ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat > sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > > > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs > beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a > subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. > > Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to > be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. > > Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a > loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, > but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has > sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. > > Best, > > Bob > > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Wed Jun 5 02:45:32 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:45:32 -0500 Subject: Siouan conference schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will miss everyone who can not make it. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SACLC 2013 Schedule .pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 115397 bytes Desc: SACLC 2013 Schedule .pdf URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 10 16:18:47 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:18:47 -0500 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <20130610113927.oc07y732wc0k4ws8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Good Luck, Linda. You may have luck to have the box arrive by Saturday, or so goes my experiences in such matters. -----Original Message----- From: Cumberland, Linda A Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:39 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Mon Jun 10 15:39:27 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:39:27 -0400 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <8453594CEFA8A4429A1CFCEE2EFB1F4942DC4B1957@EXCHMAIL.univ.neiu.edu> Message-ID: John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > From rlarson1 at unl.edu Tue Jun 11 02:24:13 2013 From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 02:24:13 +0000 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <20130610113927.oc07y732wc0k4ws8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Also, do we have any sort of estimate yet on how many people will be attending? I.e., what is the recommended number of copies of papers to print off? Thanks, Rory -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cumberland, Linda A Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:39 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Tue Jun 11 02:43:49 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference final schedule Message-ID: Hi everyone, Attache is the final version of the schedule. We have 33 people registered and are expecting a few more to attend, so I would suggest bringing approximately 40 copies of your talk handout. We lookforward to seeing everyone. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Short SACLC Schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 115528 bytes Desc: Short SACLC Schedule.pdf URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 12 03:14:12 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 20:14:12 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CE085@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm still working on researching the presence of Sweetgrass (Hiercloe odorata) in VA and N.C. but here is one example for N.C.     Sweetgrass Sweet Grass Holy Grass in North Carolina http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIOD   Sweetgrass in North Carolina is listed: Threatened and Endangered Information:  Hierochloe odorata (L.) P. Beauv.   This plant is listed by the U.S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete protected plant list for that location.   Maryland: holy grass Endangered North Carolina: holy grass Endangered Pennsylvania: vanilla sweet-grass Endangered Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/1/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 6:17 PM #yiv1549600241 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Aloha nā Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha.  In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN   tHe  xtaathe. > Grass.sweet    it.smells the  I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ  (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too.  The sentence feels awkward to me without.   Interesting, Ardis.  I bet Tutelo does work the same way.  That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern.  But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass?  Sounds like a loan-translation from English.  The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'.  I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Wed Jun 12 21:51:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:51:11 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1371006852.5716.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fascinating. You'll make an ethnobotanist of me yet. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:14 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi I'm still working on researching the presence of Sweetgrass (Hiercloe odorata) in VA and N.C. but here is one example for N.C. Sweetgrass Sweet Grass Holy Grass in North Carolina http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIOD Sweetgrass in North Carolina is listed: Threatened and Endangered Information: Hierochloe odorata (L.) P. Beauv. This plant is listed by the U.S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete protected plant list for that location. Maryland: holy grass Endangered North Carolina: holy grass Endangered Pennsylvania: vanilla sweet-grass Endangered Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/1/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 6:17 PM Aloha nā Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ʻI like the smell of sweetgrassʻ (Or awkwardly but more literally, ʻthat sweet grass smells, I like it.ʻ) > Probably Tutelo articles donʻt function anywhere near like Omahaʻs beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jun 14 21:13:23 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:13:23 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Jun 14 22:44:52 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 22:44:52 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanStatives.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 377947 bytes Desc: SiouanStatives.pdf URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Fri Jun 14 23:07:16 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:07:16 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D364F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much more common cross-linguistically. The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing that the distinction is important. From there of course cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) Marianne. --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is > the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather > than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative > paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an > addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: > I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". > > Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' > > > > Hi all, > > It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than > active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan > language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this > agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in > this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and > Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject > pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and > counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon > well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? > > Dave > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jun 15 00:39:52 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 19:39:52 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D364F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is > the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather > than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative > paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an > addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I > don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' > > Hi all, > > It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than > active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan > language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this > agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in > this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and > Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject > pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and > counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon > well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? > > Dave > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:14:55 2013 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:14:55 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:39 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:22:47 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:22:47 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wiɁe. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the š 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:25:36 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:25:36 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Louanna, Something didn't make it through here. Please try again. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus) [FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 9:14 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:39 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jun 15 15:51:32 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:51:32 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D37F8@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments > on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the > paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just > read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with > her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As > you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. > The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost > in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as > in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent > pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, > and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status > of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless > the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian > vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma > (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun > (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is > **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long > vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL > derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT > patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze > Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with > it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis > results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore > any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in > the paper. > > Bob > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and > 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an > interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of > the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited > use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of > collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus > for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and > instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative > pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I >> don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology >> > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jun 15 16:36:24 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 09:36:24 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa -----Original Message----- From: "David Kaufman" Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments > on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the > paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just > read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with > her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As > you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. > The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost > in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as > in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent > pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, > and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status > of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless > the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian > vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma > (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun > (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is > **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long > vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL > derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT > patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze > Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with > it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis > results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore > any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in > the paper. > > Bob > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and > 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an > interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of > the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited > use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of > collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus > for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and > instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative > pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I >> don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology >> > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sun Jun 16 00:39:46 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <54F595192FA6625AE3960ADE@[192.168.7.102]> Message-ID: Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish active/stative > patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative patterns are driven by > Aktionsart, that is, the difference between events and states. Agent/patient > systems are driven by the role of the referent, as instigating, volitional, > in control, etc. Both occur, sometimes within the same language, but > agent/patient systems are much more common cross-linguistically. > > The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by agents > and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an event and > would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, and an active > participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be sick' denotes a state > and would usually appear with a patient in agent/patient systems, and a > stative participant in active/stative systems. But it is exactly in > situations like the ones we're discussing that the distinction is important. > From there of course cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether > instigation or control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is > classified as volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. > > (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with agent > pronominals, not surprisingly.) > > Marianne. > > --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology > From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 01:11:24 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:11:24 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So for that, we just look at the marking on the end. Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at straws for an explanation. (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will stick even if the stem meanders semantically. Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects obligatorily occurring with patients). Marianne --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" > properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice > to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > >> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >> more common cross-linguistically. >> >> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >> that the distinction is important. From there of course >> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >> >> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >> >> Marianne. >> >> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >> wrote: >> >>> >>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>> University of Kansas >>> Linguistic Anthropology >> From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Jun 16 04:23:38 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 04:23:38 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa ________________________________ From: David Kaufman Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wiɁe. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the š 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jun 16 04:47:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:47:51 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jun 16 05:31:31 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 22:31:31 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested as well.   Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/15/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 15, 2013, 11:47 PM I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned.  Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps.  I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa From: David Kaufman Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo.  It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation).  It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not.  Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Sorry folks.  I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query.  I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available.  I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server.  If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email.  Otherwise, just read the paper.  It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system.  As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems.  The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals.  Surprise, surprise.  There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects.  We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested.  It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64).  No, wi:ma is a compound form.  The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wiɁe.  It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo.  The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role.  Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring.  They just lost the b/p 1st person and the š 2nd person agent/actor pronominals.  1st person wa- has nothing to do with it.  It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem.  The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology.  You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo.  I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.'  Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix.  There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language.  Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon.  Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sun Jun 16 09:05:20 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:05:20 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: I'd like one too, please! Anthony >>> David Kaufman 06/16/13 5:56 AM >>> I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used wi>> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 13:59:49 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 06:59:49 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Me too, please! Marianne --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:23 AM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would > like a copy. > > Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > > > > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and > Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian > numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian > words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words > look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional > between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > > > __________________________________________________ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying > attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem > retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. > Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, > although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the > pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved > R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs > of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and > disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- > French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. > Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia > may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some > Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all > unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes > Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > >> The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person >> pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. > is *wi?e. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in > others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the > patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. > Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo > restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person > agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's > never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results > in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any > discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo > in the paper. > > Bob > > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' > and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is > an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation > of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the > limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time > of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. > Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, > effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take > stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Jun 16 14:44:47 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:44:47 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd like to have a copy of that as well. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:23 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jun 16 15:49:13 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 08:49:13 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: Yeah, I wouldn't mind a PDF of that, either. Thanks, Dave Costa -----Original Message----- From: "David Kaufman" Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 9:47 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 17:47:17 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:47:17 -0700 Subject: "Saponi" word list. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D4187@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk tékeni Oneida tekni Onondaga tékni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron téni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora né:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk yà:ya'k Oneida yá:ya'k Onondaga áhya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jajáck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhahéa Tuscarora úhya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Iroquoian words for.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 80504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jun 16 18:24:51 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:24:51 -0700 Subject: "Saponi" word list. Message-ID: I'm away from my materials for a few days, but I recall that the two probable Iroquoian numbers in the vocabulary weren't as clean a match for any known language as the obviously Algonquian numbers (all the rest). I wouldn't sweat the vowel discrepancy with 'two', since we don't have the original manuscript to consult and it's entirely possible that the 'o' is a misreading for handwritten 'e'. Either way those two numbers don't match anything in Algonquian or Siouan. Dave C -----Original Message----- From: "Marianne Mithun" Sent: ‎6/‎16/‎2013 10:47 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk tékeni Oneida tekni Onondaga tékni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron téni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora né:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk yà:ya'k Oneida yá:ya'k Onondaga áhya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jajáck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhahéa Tuscarora úhya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Jun 16 22:07:02 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:07:02 +0000 Subject: "Saponi" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the help with the vocab., Marianne. Obviously I can't judge the Iroquoianess of the numeral terms, but I agree with Dave that the handwritten original may well have contained ambiguities. I'm quite sure that at least two or three of the Siouan terms got confused. I mention these in the discussion. Penmanship is at the center of several controversial names in those early documents. Take the name "Steukenocks", one of the Virginia tribes. There are a variety of spellings, but it's clear that the "eu" diphthong is really "en", the regular reflex of nasal */ą / in the Tutelo as transcribed by several linguists. What was interpreted as "u" was really a cursive "n". The name is stąk-a-nąk-s 'island on-dwell aspect/mode suffix. And it clearly means 'island dwellers'. And of course several colonial documents mention prominently that the Tutelos, Saponies and Occaneechis all lived on islands in the river, presumably for protection. There are all kinds of these handwriting puzzles. The facsimile of the list in the Alexander publication is pretty clear, but it is a copy of a copy, and I have no way to check the original if it even exists still. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 1:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. I'm away from my materials for a few days, but I recall that the two probable Iroquoian numbers in the vocabulary weren't as clean a match for any known language as the obviously Algonquian numbers (all the rest). I wouldn't sweat the vowel discrepancy with 'two', since we don't have the original manuscript to consult and it's entirely possible that the 'o' is a misreading for handwritten 'e'. Either way those two numbers don't match anything in Algonquian or Siouan. Dave C ________________________________ From: Marianne Mithun Sent: ‎6/‎16/‎2013 10:47 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk tékeni Oneida tekni Onondaga tékni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron téni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora né:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk yà:ya'k Oneida yá:ya'k Onondaga áhya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jajáck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhahéa Tuscarora úhya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From salvucci at ARXPUB.COM Sun Jun 16 23:59:21 2013 From: salvucci at ARXPUB.COM (Claudio Salvucci) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:59:21 -0400 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd be interested in the paper as well. -Claudio On Jun 16, 2013, at 12:23 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Jun 17 13:42:34 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:42:34 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 14:48:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:48:34 +0000 Subject: Saponi vocab from Colonial Virginia Message-ID: Hi Lori, Here's the paper. It's not much more than a reasoned phonemicization of the handwritten scribbles of someone at the fort. Probably the most interesting facet is the fact that it may well be our one and only attestation of the Siouan-based pidgin that was used in colonial Virginia and West Virginia. Enjoy! Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Lori Stanley [stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:42 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa ________________________________ From: David Kaufman Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wiɁe. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the š 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Saponi list.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 462392 bytes Desc: Saponi list.pdf URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Jun 17 15:07:14 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:07:14 -0500 Subject: Saponi vocab from Colonial Virginia In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D489F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Bob! On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Hi Lori, > > Here's the paper. It's not much more than a reasoned phonemicization of > the handwritten scribbles of someone at the fort. Probably the most > interesting facet is the fact that it may well be our one and only > attestation of the Siouan-based pidgin that was used in colonial Virginia > and West Virginia. > > Enjoy! > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Lori > Stanley [stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU] > *Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2013 8:42 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information >> about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" >> version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like >> a copy. >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna >> Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian >> numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the >> Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like >> some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like >> what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia >> Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. >> >> Dave Costa >> ------------------------------ >> From: David Kaufman >> Sent: ‎6/‎15/‎2013 8:51 AM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Bob, >> >> Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. >> >> It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do >> seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like >> 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of >> my dissertation). It will require more analysis. >> >> I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but >> apparently not. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >>> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >>> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >>> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >>> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >>> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >>> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >>> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >>> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >>> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >>> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >>> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >>> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >>> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >>> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >>> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >>> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >>> >>> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >>> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >>> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >>> >>> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >>> is **wiɁe*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >>> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >>> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >>> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >>> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* š*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >>> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >>> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >>> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >>> description. >>> >>> But pay attention to Marianne too. >>> >>> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >>> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >>> the paper. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >>> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >>> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >>> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >>> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >>> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >>> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >>> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >>> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >>> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >>> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >>> >>> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >>> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >>> >>> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >>> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >>> with Chitimacha 'go.' >>> >>> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >>> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >>> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >>> problem - I'm not sure. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> >>>> >> [The entire original message is not included.] >> > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Jun 17 16:44:53 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:44:53 -0600 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian (which > is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) are > obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So for > that, we just look at the marking on the end. > > Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are > states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm is > interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are used. > For inherent states, usually agent forms. > > For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant state: 'I > have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal prefixes. (I'm > just sitting here full now.) > > An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things that we > might think, from their translations, as say progressive: 'singing'. These > are often activities without a tangible product. The verb 'go' could be > interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at straws for an > explanation. > > (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with > patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or patient > paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will stick even if > the stem meanders semantically. > > Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically > agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects > obligatorily occurring with patients). > > Marianne > > > --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>> more common cross-linguistically. >>> >>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>> >>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>> >>> Marianne. >>> >>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>> University of Kansas >>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>> > From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 17 18:44:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 13:44:51 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Jun 17 18:57:53 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:57:53 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 21:26:48 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:26:48 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <51BF6A40.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Well, I agree with both of you to a point. If ire really means 'you go', then we have a little inflection. On the other hand, i- 'you' is a replacement prefix. The inherited 2nd person prefix would have been š-. I- would be derived from the independent pronoun. So one could argue either way. Either it's inflection or it is the replacement of inflection with an independent pronoun. And the order is indeed the very un-Siouan SVO. Note, however, that there are several SVO sentences among those recorded by linguists looking at Tutelo proper. Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 1:57 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Jun 17 21:52:24 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:52:24 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: The use of SVO won't prove that something is pidginiselatid, but it would certainly be a signal that the data are anomalous (they could be translationese, Saponi words with English syntax). I think Dave and I can agree that seeing SVO order is enough to spark curiosity. The SVO in some Tutelo sentences surprises me - were the data not elicited via Cayuga? (Could Horatio H speak an Iroquoian language?) Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 06/17/13 10:29 PM >>> Well, I agree with both of you to a point. If ire really means 'you go', then we have a little inflection. On the other hand, i- 'you' is a replacement prefix. The inherited 2nd person prefix would have been š-. I- would be derived from the independent pronoun. So one could argue either way. Either it's inflection or it is the replacement of inflection with an independent pronoun. And the order is indeed the very un-Siouan SVO. Note, however, that there are several SVO sentences among those recorded by linguists looking at Tutelo proper. Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 1:57 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >>>> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of KanLinguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 23:44:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 23:44:10 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <51BF9329020000A600091A71@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: > The SVO in some Tutelo sentences surprises me - were the data not elicited via Cayuga? (Could Horatio H speak an Iroquoian language?) Hale was an American lawyer who married a Canadian and moved to Canada. I'm pretty sure he didn't speak any languages with the possible exception of European tongues. J.N.B. Hewitt, on the other hand, WAS Iroquoian as far as I know and his Tutelo notes could have been elicited via Cayuga. I'd have to check and see who elicited the SVO examples. It should be in Oliverio's dissertation. I'm hearing about next year's Siouan Conference location as Madison, Wisconsin. That would be a terrific place to meet. Maybe this year's participants will tell us more. Bob From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Tue Jun 18 03:45:11 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:45:11 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! All best, Saul On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he > and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware > of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, > sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in > exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough > on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, > information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my > current delays. > > But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure > will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the > interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two > scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. > > We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous > time in DC. > Jimm > > *From:* Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good > news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the > one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get > some video material started, but learning new software is not really my > strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the > Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which > didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. > > > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > > Yes, Jill! > > Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future > rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ > statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are > worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM > Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day > tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a > more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost > Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film > makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all > scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I > will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a > printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be > approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production > of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time > (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs > draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will > be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to > give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, > where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of > state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning > from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & > lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with > my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and > staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of > all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our > family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile > system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid > custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I > want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua > private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I > have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in > Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers > tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic > achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the > moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) > grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be > included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource > Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below > are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ > assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, > but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that > the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the > Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our > Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > > Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun > hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme > gigrúnje taho. > > > > Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda > > Jimm > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 > - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but > if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was > SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - > it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul > Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? > > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the > American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon > Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating > Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, > Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the > table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never > heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand > it. > > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the > hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It > is simply: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ > glelábliⁿ." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and > source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come > across a Siouan one. > > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested > to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jun 18 03:55:48 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:55:48 -0700 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Message-ID: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 15:41:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:41:11 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jun 18 16:03:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:03:51 -0500 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: <68ja6wvcdjk8sdx9v7fc3fj3.1371569036979@email.android.com> Message-ID: I think he must have fallen asleep at his keyboard. Dave On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > *Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID* > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC > c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Jun 18 16:26:56 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Glad to hear that Dave! I was a little worried for a bit. Rory From: David costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:05 AM To: Rory Larson Subject: RE: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Sorry folks, new phone and I have no idea how that happened! Dave ________________________________ From: Rory Larson Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2013 6:37 AM To: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Subject: RE: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Cat on the keyboard? :) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David costa Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:56 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Tue Jun 18 16:29:36 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: <68ja6wvcdjk8sdx9v7fc3fj3.1371569036979@email.android.com> Message-ID: Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meya at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Jun 18 16:41:34 2013 From: meya at LAKHOTA.ORG (Wilhelm K. Meya) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:41:34 -0400 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: <51C08AF0.3020300@usask.ca> Message-ID: Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil > Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director > > Lakota Language Consortium > 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 > Bloomington, IN 47404 > > Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 > Tel.- 812.961.0140 > Cell.- 812.340.3517 > Fax.- 812.961.0141 > meya at lakhota.org > > http://www.lakhota.org > > From: Mary C Marino Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > And the same to you with knobs on. > > > > > Bob > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID > > > > David costa > wrote: > > > > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. > ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u. > unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC2013.jpg Type: application/applefile Size: 73444 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC2013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 693467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jun 18 17:01:43 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:01:43 -0700 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Message-ID: I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave -----Original Message----- From: "Mary C Marino" Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2013 9:29 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue Jun 18 17:47:13 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:47:13 +0100 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave: Did your cat land on the keyboard or something? >>> David costa 18/06/2013 18:01 >>> I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave -----Original Message----- From: "Mary C Marino" Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2013 9:29 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 18:38:56 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:38:56 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me, I think you tried texting while driving with that new phone. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2013 9:29 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 19:07:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:07:34 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wil, Many thanks for sharing the pictures. Looks like you had a really good crowd. I'm very sorry I missed everything. Next year for sure. I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. All best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wilhelm K. Meya [meya at LAKHOTA.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil ________________________________ Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: > Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Jun 18 20:17:06 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:17:06 -0500 Subject: SCLC pics Message-ID: We missed you, Bob! >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 06/18/13 2:08 PM >>> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Wil, Many thanks for sharing the pictures. Looks like you had a really good crowd. I'm very sorry I missed everything. Next year for sure. I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. All best, Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wilhelm K. Meya [meya at LAKHOTA.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org From: Mary C Marino Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Jun 18 23:13:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:13:08 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice pictures, Wil. And let me express my thanks to you, Armik, Jan and John Boyle for all your work and hospitality in setting us up there. It acquainted me with a corner of Siouan studies I hadn't been much aware of, and I really have to say I'm impressed with your program. Keep up the great work! Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Wilhelm K. Meya Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:42 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil ________________________________ Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: > Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 19 18:33:15 2013 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:33:15 -0500 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D552E@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: >>I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. That would have been me, Bob. In my talk about the bundling of Siouan Dictionary resources.. Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Wed Jun 19 20:37:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:37:03 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Iren, I sort of figured that out from comparing the clock on the wall just above the photo with the published schedule of the papers, but it was a gal with big eyeglasses and didn't look like you. Anyway, I'm really sorry I missed all the papers. I'm going to ask people for .PDFs. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Iren Hartmann [wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: SCLC pics >>I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. That would have been me, Bob. In my talk about the bundling of Siouan Dictionary resources.. Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jun 22 06:44:32 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 23:44:32 -0700 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning Message-ID: Any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Amą: = Earth Yesą = People (alternate for people is Relative – Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) Monasukapanough “But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.”--- William Byrd (1728) Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it’s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. I've also seen Sapinney. Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable’s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---“American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence”, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 – 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Sapan (pronounced [ˈsaːpːʌn]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sapàn". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into “softened by water”. See, “Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico”, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652.       Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jun 22 07:06:05 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 00:06:05 -0700 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371883472.34422.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seponican   Proceedings of the New York State Historical Association, Volume 6  By New York State Historical Association http://books.google.com/books?id=0TmYlrp7AZcC&pg=RA1-PA7&dq=Saponican&hl=en&ei=gx9eTbqrGZTpgAeptKTrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Saponican&f=false   Saponickan and Sapohanican are the earliest forms of a name which appears later Sappokanican, Sappokanikke, Saponican, Shaw-backanica, Taponkanico, etc. “ A piece of land bounded on the north by the strand road, called Saponickan” (1629); “Tobacco plantation near Sapohanican” (1639); “Plantation situate against the Reed Valley beyond Sappokanican” (1640).  Wouter van Twiller purchased the tract, in 1629, for the use of the Dutch government and established thereon a tobacco plantation, with buildings enclosed in palisade, which subsequently became known as “the little village of Sapokanican--- Sappokanican--- Van der Donck--- and later (1721) as Greenwich Village. It occupied very nearly the site of the present Gansevort market. The “Strand road” is now Greenwich Street. It was primarily, an Indian path along the shore of the river north, with branches to Harlem and other points, the main path continuing the trunk-path through Raritan Valley, but locally beginning at the ‘crossing-place’ or as the record reads, “Where the Indians cross [the Hudson] to bring their pelteries.” “South of Van Twiller's plantation was a marsh much affected by wild fowl, and a bright, quick brook, called by the Dutch ‘Bestavar's Kil’, and by the English ‘Manetta Water.’”( Half-Moon Series.) Saponickan was in place here when Van Twiller made his purchase (1629), as the record shows, and was adopted by him as the name of his settlement. To what feature it referred cannot be positively stated, but apparently to the Reed Valley or marsh. It has had several interpretations, but none that are satisfactory. The syllable pon may denote a bulbous root which was found there. (See Passapenoc.) The same name is probably met in Saphorakam, or Saphonakan, given as the name of a tract described as “Marsh and canebrake,” lying near or on the shore of Gowanus Bay, Brooklyn. (See Kanonnewage, in connection with Manhattan.) Also see the following as to the name: “Four dayes Journey from your forte Southerward is a town called Ononahorne, seated where the river Choanock divideth itself into three branches and falleth into the sea of Rawnocke in thirty five degrees. If you make your principall and choise seate you shall doe most safely and richly because you are in the heart of Lands open to the south and two of the best rivers will supply you, besides you are neare to with Copper mines of Ritane and may passe them by one branch of the river, and by another Peccareca- micke where you shall finde four of the Englishe alsoe, lost by Sir Walter Raweley, which escaped from the slaughter of Powhatan of Roanocke upon the first arivall of our Colony and live under the protection of a wiroano call’d Sepanocan enemy to Powhatan, by whose consent you shall never receive them, one of these were worth much laboar and if you finde them not, yet search into this contrey it is more probable than towardes the North.”     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 1:44 AM Any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Amą: = Earth Yesą = People (alternate for people is Relative – Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) Monasukapanough “But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.”--- William Byrd (1728) Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it’s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. I've also seen Sapinney. Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable’s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---“American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence”, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 – 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Sapan (pronounced [ˈsaːpːʌn]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sapàn". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into “softened by water”. See, “Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico”, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652.       Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 22 22:29:27 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:29:27 +0000 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371884765.28190.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Saponickan and Sapohanican are the earliest forms of a name which appears later Sappokanican, Sappokanikke, Saponican, Shaw-backanica, Taponkanico, etc. “ A piece of land bounded on the north by the strand road, called Saponickan” (1629); “Tobacco plantation near Sapohanican” (1639); “Plantation situate against the Reed Valley beyond Sappokanican” (1640). Wouter van Twiller purchased the tract, in 1629, for the use of the Dutch government and established thereon a tobacco plantation, with buildings enclosed in palisade, which subsequently became known as “the little village of Sapokanican--- Sappokanican--- Van der Donck--- and later (1721) as Greenwich Village. It occupied very nearly the site of the present Gansevort market. The “Strand road” is now Greenwich Street. It was primarily, an Indian path along the shore of the river north, with branches to Harlem and other points, the main path continuing the trunk-path through Raritan Valley, but locally beginning at the ‘crossing-place’ or as the record reads, “Where the Indians cross [the Hudson] to bring their pelteries.” “South of Van Twiller's plantation was a marsh much affected by wild fowl, and a bright, quick brook, called by the Dutch ‘Bestavar's Kil’, and by the English ‘Manetta Water.’”( Half-Moon Series.) Saponickan was in place here when Van Twiller made his purchase (1629), as the record shows, and was adopted by him as the name of his settlement. To what feature it referred cannot be positively stated, but apparently to the Reed Valley or marsh. It has had several interpretations, but none that are satisfactory. The syllable pon may denote a bulbous root which was found there. (See Passapenoc.) The same name is probably met in Saphorakam, or Saphonakan, given as the name of a tract described as “Marsh and canebrake,” lying near or on the shore of Gowanus Bay, Brooklyn. (See Kanonnewage, in connection with Manhattan.) The above all seems to be about New York City. While it's true that the Tutelos and Saponis migrated to Pennsylvania and thence to NY state, they went to northern NY state. There is nothing in the histories to connect them with Manhattan Island. It's possible that somewhere in the local histories of northern NY there may be some trace of the Saponis, but none has been found so far. >“Four dayes Journey from your forte Southerward is a town called Ononahorne, seated where the river Choanock divideth itself into three branches and falleth into the sea of Rawnocke in thirty five degrees. If you make your principall and choise seate you shall doe most safely and richly because you are in the heart of Lands open to the south and two of the best rivers will supply you, besides you are neare to with Copper mines of Ritane and may passe them by one branch of the river, and by another Peccareca- micke where you shall finde four of the Englishe alsoe, lost by Sir Walter Raweley, which escaped from the slaughter of Powhatan of Roanocke upon the first arivall of our Colony and live under the protection of a wiroano call’d Sepanocan enemy to Powhatan, by whose consent you shall never receive them, one of these were worth much laboar and if you finde them not, yet search into this contrey it is more probable than towardes the North.” This passage is more interesting and may well mention the Saponis. That's about all I can say though. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 22 22:20:13 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:20:13 +0000 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371883472.34422.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. I don't see why there would be anything more than coincidence with 'flat'. > It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. I'd guess not. There is a basic problem with assuming that tribal names have some identifiable meaning. Most of them simply don't. If they had any original meaning, it's been lost. The words for the Ponca, Kansa, Osage and Ioway have no identifiable meaning. There are folk analyses and stories, but no solid etymologies. On the other hand, Omaha and Quapaw do evidently have etymologies as 'upstream' and 'downstream' people. > Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Amą: = Earth Yesą = People (alternate for people is Relative – Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I don't think there's any evidence for 'red earth people'. > Monasukapanough “But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.”--- William Byrd (1728) Yes, that's what moni seep means OK. > Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} Yes, those are apparently the same. I don't know what spelling rules Byrd used or the exact value of his letters. > If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it’s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. All these are attempts by Europeans and White Americans to write down Indian words that contained sounds and sequences of sounds that were unfamiliar to them. I've also seen Sapinney. > Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? No way to know. Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable’s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---“American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence”, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 – 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 Actually, it's the spelling Pawnee that is an attempt to render the syllables pa-ni. As far as I know there is no specific evidence that the Pawnees were ever east of the Mississippi. "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. > Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Those are reasonable questions. Certainly there are no Siouan languages in which descriptive modifiers precede the noun. I doubt that Iroquois influence was that great at the time Hale did his work, but I can't say for sure. > Sapan (pronounced [ˈsaːpːʌn]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sapàn". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into “softened by water”. See, “Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico”, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652. I don't know that it would have anything to do with the Siouan name though. I wish I had answers for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Jun 24 03:12:53 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 21:12:53 -0600 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D73D9@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My ignorance of names and naming customs is vast, so I apologize if the following is a dumb comment. However, At least some of the time, the word we have in English for a tribal name is not from the language of that tribe at all, but rather the result of asking someone "who lives over there?" and getting the answer in the language of the neighbors, not the self-designation of the tribe. Is there any point in even trying to figure out a Siouan etymology for this name? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Sat Jun 1 22:42:42 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 12:42:42 -1000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBE93@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Aloha n? Siouanists, I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ?smell? but used as the main verb: MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. Grass.sweet the smells-good. ?Sweet grass smells good.? But that one is off my memory cause I can?t find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what that?s worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. With aloha, Ardis On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. > > In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. > > Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) > > *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) > > If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. > > At this point, we have: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. > > where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. > > It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: > > sokta:ki > mukta:ki > oto: > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. > > Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? > > Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? > > Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. > > The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. > > might mean > > ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? > > rather than > > ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. > > Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as > > ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? > > Biloxi has a comparable word: > > ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: > > ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. > > I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) > > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Here is what Meuse had for -i : > > > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by > final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. > > The word "the" is a definite article correct? > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka > > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. > > I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. > > I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. > > The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Verb at end of sentence > > Adjectives follow nouns > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > > > I = mi (subject/noun) > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) > > The = i- (definite article) > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > > Of = qekego (preposition) > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) > > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 1 23:30:42 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:30:42 +0000 Subject: Siouan Conference. Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm afraid I'm going to miss the Conference this year. I didn't get started early enough trying to arrange my dialysis at Ft. Yates and I'd have to commute 110 mi. round trip to/from Bismarck twice, and that was a little too much to face. Next year for sure. In addition, I wasn't really happy with the couple of papers I've been working on, though I suppose I could have cobbled something together. The program looks great and I'm especially interested in seeing the papers on Chiwere. It's so under-represented in the literature. I hope I can prevail on participants to share .pdf copies of their work with the Siouan Archive (and me). We're trying to arrange to get some of the new Kaw dictionaries to the meeting, but if we're unable to they can be ordered from Linda via the mails. Hoist a brewski for me. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at unl.edu Sat Jun 1 23:16:51 2013 From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:16:51 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha, Ardis! It?s good to hear from you. You raise a good question. I was kind of wondering too if we would need an article to wrap that up as a noun phrase, or if keeping it as one long verb phrase was better. I think xtaathe may require a noun as an object, but I wonder if that would also be the case with iNudoN? In English, the difference I?m thinking of is the one between ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (noun object, with an article) and ?I like to smell sweetgrass? (chained verb phrase, with ?sweetgrass?, not ?smell?, as the object). Unfortunately, I don?t think any of us know Tutelo well enough to be sure how to construct it! I hope you and your mother are both doing well. Will you be able to make it to the Siouanist conference this year? All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Aloha n? Siouanists, I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ?smell? but used as the main verb: MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. Grass.sweet the smells-good. ?Sweet grass smells good.? But that one is off my memory cause I can?t find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what that?s worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. With aloha, Ardis On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman > wrote: From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 1 23:17:55 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 23:17:55 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aloha n? Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Sun Jun 2 02:48:11 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 16:48:11 -1000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8428106FB@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Aloha Rory!, Can?t use iNudoN with smell here... it would mean something like ?I like to eat the smell of sweet grass.? Mom?ll hopefully be at the conference, but I couldn?t swing it. Are you gonna make it? I wish you all a fabulous conference full of learning and insight. Me ke aloha pumehana (with warmest aloha), Ardis On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Aloha, Ardis! > > It?s good to hear from you. You raise a good question. I was kind of wondering too if we would need an article to wrap that up as a noun phrase, or if keeping it as one long verb phrase was better. I think xtaathe may require a noun as an object, but I wonder if that would also be the case with iNudoN? In English, the difference I?m thinking of is the one between ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (noun object, with an article) and ?I like to smell sweetgrass? (chained verb phrase, with ?sweetgrass?, not ?smell?, as the object). Unfortunately, I don?t think any of us know Tutelo well enough to be sure how to construct it! > > I hope you and your mother are both doing well. Will you be able to make it to the Siouanist conference this year? > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:43 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Aloha n? Siouanists, > > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like > ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. > > I remember an elicited sentence, too, using pi ?smell? but used as the main verb: > > MoNhiNskithe tHe pi-udoN. > Grass.sweet the smells-good. > ?Sweet grass smells good.? > > But that one is off my memory cause I can?t find the reference in my notes. And I forgot to ask Mom when we talked. So, take it for what that?s worth. Anyway, that would be another way to express that one likes the smell of sweet grass. It also seems less like a literal translation from English to me, too. > > With aloha, > Ardis > > > On May 27, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. > > In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. > > Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) > > *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) > > If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. > > At this point, we have: > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. > > where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. > > It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: > > sokta:ki > mukta:ki > oto: > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. > > Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? > > Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? > > Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. > > The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. > > might mean > > ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? > > rather than > > ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. > > Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as > > ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? > > Biloxi has a comparable word: > > ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: > > ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. > > I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) > > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! > > All the best, > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Here is what Meuse had for -i : > > > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by > final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. > > The word "the" is a definite article correct? > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka > > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. > > I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. > > I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. > > The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. > > Bob > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Verb at end of sentence > > Adjectives follow nouns > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > > > I = mi (subject/noun) > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) > > The = i- (definite article) > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > > Of = qekego (preposition) > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) > > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7466 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun Jun 2 12:44:42 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 13:44:42 +0100 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CE085@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Siouan articles are fantastic. ?I once wrote an article about articles (no pun intended), which some of you may not have seen as it came out in a british periodical Ingham, B. (2003) ?The function of the post-nominal element ki~k?un in Lakota? inTransactions of the Philological Society vol 101 iii p.371-410. ISSN 0079 1636. It doesn't add much to what we already know, but I suggested that the 'articles' had something of the nature of a topicalizer. Anyway have a great time at the Siouanists and I hope to see you all again one day. Actually I will be in the Mila Hanska Makhoche my self while the conference is on, but over in Connecticut. ?Best wishes to all. Bruce ________________________________ From: "Rankin, Robert L." To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2013, 0:17 Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Aloha n? Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. ?In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN ? tHe ?xtaathe. > Grass.sweet ? ?it.smells the ?I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? ?(Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. ?The sentence feels awkward to me without. ? Interesting, Ardis.? I bet Tutelo does work the same way.? That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern.? But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass?? Sounds like a loan-translation from English.? The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'.? I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jun 2 16:22:38 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 11:22:38 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1370177082.90099.YahooMailNeo@web171401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting - I have found this to be the case with Biloxi -yaN, which also seems to be a type of topicalizing definite article and is often used after first mention in Biloxi texts. Dave On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:44 AM, shokooh Ingham wrote: > Siouan articles are fantastic. I once wrote an article about articles (no > pun intended), which some of you may not have seen as it came out in a > british periodical > Ingham, B. (2003) ?The function of the post-nominal element ki~k?un in > Lakota? in* Transactions of the Philological Society* vol 101 iii > p.371-410. ISSN 0079 1636. > It doesn't add much to what we already know, but I suggested that the > 'articles' had something of the nature of a topicalizer. > Anyway have a great time at the Siouanists and I hope to see you all again > one day. Actually I will be in the Mila Hanska Makhoche my self while the > conference is on, but over in Connecticut. Best wishes to all. > > Bruce > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Sent:* Sunday, 2 June 2013, 0:17 > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > > Aloha n? Siouanists, > > > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with > my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning > as a subordinator: > > > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like > ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that > sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > > > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s > beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a > subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. > > Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to > be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. > > Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a > loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, > but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has > sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. > > Best, > > Bob > > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Wed Jun 5 02:45:32 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:45:32 -0500 Subject: Siouan conference schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will miss everyone who can not make it. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SACLC 2013 Schedule .pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 115397 bytes Desc: SACLC 2013 Schedule .pdf URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 10 16:18:47 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:18:47 -0500 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <20130610113927.oc07y732wc0k4ws8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Good Luck, Linda. You may have luck to have the box arrive by Saturday, or so goes my experiences in such matters. -----Original Message----- From: Cumberland, Linda A Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:39 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Mon Jun 10 15:39:27 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:39:27 -0400 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <8453594CEFA8A4429A1CFCEE2EFB1F4942DC4B1957@EXCHMAIL.univ.neiu.edu> Message-ID: John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > From rlarson1 at unl.edu Tue Jun 11 02:24:13 2013 From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 02:24:13 +0000 Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) In-Reply-To: <20130610113927.oc07y732wc0k4ws8@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Also, do we have any sort of estimate yet on how many people will be attending? I.e., what is the recommended number of copies of papers to print off? Thanks, Rory -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cumberland, Linda A Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:39 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Need Mailing address for conference today (Monday) John, I need a mailing address asap - I wasn't sure which address to use from the conference announcement. I'm trying to ship a box of Kaw Dictionaries to Kathey Shea so she can sell them at the conference. I only just got permission to do this today, so I'm trying to get them in the mail today. Thanks! Linda Quoting "Boyle, John" : > Hi all, > > Attached is the (hopefully) final schedule for the 33rd Siouan and > Caddoan Languages conference next week at Sitting Bull College. We > are looking forward to seeing everyone who will be attending and will > miss everyone who can not make it. > > All the best, > > John > > From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Tue Jun 11 02:43:49 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: Siouan Conference final schedule Message-ID: Hi everyone, Attache is the final version of the schedule. We have 33 people registered and are expecting a few more to attend, so I would suggest bringing approximately 40 copies of your talk handout. We lookforward to seeing everyone. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Short SACLC Schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 115528 bytes Desc: Short SACLC Schedule.pdf URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 12 03:14:12 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 20:14:12 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CE085@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm still working on researching the presence of Sweetgrass (Hiercloe odorata) in VA and N.C. but here is one example for N.C. ? ? Sweetgrass Sweet Grass Holy Grass in North Carolina http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIOD ? Sweetgrass in North Carolina is listed: Threatened and Endangered Information: ?Hierochloe odorata (L.) P. Beauv. ? This plant is listed by the U.S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete protected plant list for that location. ? Maryland: holy grass Endangered North Carolina: holy grass Endangered Pennsylvania: vanilla sweet-grass Endangered Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/1/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 6:17 PM #yiv1549600241 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Aloha n? Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. ?In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN ? tHe ?xtaathe. > Grass.sweet ? ?it.smells the ?I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? ?(Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. ?The sentence feels awkward to me without. ? Interesting, Ardis.? I bet Tutelo does work the same way.? That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern.? But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass?? Sounds like a loan-translation from English.? The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'.? I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Wed Jun 12 21:51:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:51:11 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1371006852.5716.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fascinating. You'll make an ethnobotanist of me yet. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:14 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi I'm still working on researching the presence of Sweetgrass (Hiercloe odorata) in VA and N.C. but here is one example for N.C. Sweetgrass Sweet Grass Holy Grass in North Carolina http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIOD Sweetgrass in North Carolina is listed: Threatened and Endangered Information: Hierochloe odorata (L.) P. Beauv. This plant is listed by the U.S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete protected plant list for that location. Maryland: holy grass Endangered North Carolina: holy grass Endangered Pennsylvania: vanilla sweet-grass Endangered Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/1/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 6:17 PM Aloha n? Siouanists, > I had a guess on this sentence if it was UmoNhoN, which I checked with my NoNha. In Omaha, the article would occur, but it would be functioning as a subordinator: > MoNhiNskithe bthoN tHe xtaathe. > Grass.sweet it.smells the I.like ?I like the smell of sweetgrass? (Or awkwardly but more literally, ?that sweet grass smells, I like it.?) > Probably Tutelo articles don?t function anywhere near like Omaha?s beautiful, powerful articles, but I am wondering if there might not be a subordinator needed there, too. The sentence feels awkward to me without. Interesting, Ardis. I bet Tutelo does work the same way. That seems to be a standard Siouan pattern. But I'll defer to my syntactician colleagues. Does Omaha use MoNhiNskithe for real sweetgrass? Sounds like a loan-translation from English. The Dakotan term has a cognate in Dhegiha, but it's the word for 'onion'. I was wondering if NE Nebraska has sweetgrass and, if so, what the Omahas and Poncas call it. Best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jun 14 21:13:23 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:13:23 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Jun 14 22:44:52 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 22:44:52 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SiouanStatives.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 377947 bytes Desc: SiouanStatives.pdf URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Fri Jun 14 23:07:16 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:07:16 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D364F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much more common cross-linguistically. The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing that the distinction is important. From there of course cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) Marianne. --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is > the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather > than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative > paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an > addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: > I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". > > Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' > > > > Hi all, > > It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than > active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan > language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this > agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in > this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and > Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject > pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and > counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon > well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? > > Dave > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jun 15 00:39:52 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 19:39:52 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D364F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is > the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather > than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative > paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an > addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I > don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' > > Hi all, > > It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than > active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan > language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this > agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in > this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and > Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject > pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and > counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon > well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? > > Dave > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:14:55 2013 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:14:55 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:39 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:22:47 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:22:47 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wi?e. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 15 02:25:36 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:25:36 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Louanna, Something didn't make it through here. Please try again. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus) [FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 9:14 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 7:39 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Hi all, It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? Dave -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jun 15 15:51:32 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:51:32 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D37F8@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments > on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the > paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just > read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with > her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As > you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. > The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost > in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as > in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent > pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, > and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status > of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless > the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian > vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma > (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun > (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is > **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long > vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL > derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT > patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze > Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with > it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis > results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore > any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in > the paper. > > Bob > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and > 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an > interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of > the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited > use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of > collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus > for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and > instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative > pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I >> don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology >> > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jun 15 16:36:24 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 09:36:24 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa -----Original Message----- From: "David Kaufman" Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments > on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the > paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just > read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with > her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As > you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. > The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost > in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as > in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent > pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, > and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status > of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless > the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian > vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma > (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun > (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is > **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long > vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL > derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT > patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze > Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with > it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis > results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore > any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in > the paper. > > Bob > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and > 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an > interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of > the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited > use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of > collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus > for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and > instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative > pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: I >> don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology >> > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sun Jun 16 00:39:46 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:39:46 -0600 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <54F595192FA6625AE3960ADE@[192.168.7.102]> Message-ID: Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish active/stative > patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative patterns are driven by > Aktionsart, that is, the difference between events and states. Agent/patient > systems are driven by the role of the referent, as instigating, volitional, > in control, etc. Both occur, sometimes within the same language, but > agent/patient systems are much more common cross-linguistically. > > The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by agents > and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an event and > would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, and an active > participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be sick' denotes a state > and would usually appear with a patient in agent/patient systems, and a > stative participant in active/stative systems. But it is exactly in > situations like the ones we're discussing that the distinction is important. > From there of course cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether > instigation or control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is > classified as volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. > > (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with agent > pronominals, not surprisingly.) > > Marianne. > > --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >> >> Bob >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other Siouan >> language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost this >> agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly interested in >> this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, Atakapa and >> Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of active/subject >> pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this was strange and >> counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more common phenomenon >> well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >> University of Kansas >> Linguistic Anthropology > From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 01:11:24 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:11:24 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So for that, we just look at the marking on the end. Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at straws for an explanation. (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will stick even if the stem meanders semantically. Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects obligatorily occurring with patients). Marianne --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" > properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice > to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > >> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >> more common cross-linguistically. >> >> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >> that the distinction is important. From there of course >> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >> >> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >> >> Marianne. >> >> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >> wrote: >> >>> >>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>> University of Kansas >>> Linguistic Anthropology >> From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Jun 16 04:23:38 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 04:23:38 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa ________________________________ From: David Kaufman Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wi?e. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jun 16 04:47:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:47:51 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jun 16 05:31:31 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 22:31:31 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested as well. ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/15/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 15, 2013, 11:47 PM I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned.? Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps.? I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa From: David Kaufman Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo.? It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation).? It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not.? Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Sorry folks.? I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query.? I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available.? I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server.? If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email.? Otherwise, just read the paper.? It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system.? As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems.? The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals.? Surprise, surprise.? There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects.? We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested.? It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64).? No, wi:ma is a compound form.? The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wi?e.? It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo.? The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role.? Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring.? They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person agent/actor pronominals.? 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it.? It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem.? The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology.? You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo.? I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.'? Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix.? There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language.? Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon.? Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sun Jun 16 09:05:20 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:05:20 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: I'd like one too, please! Anthony >>> David Kaufman 06/16/13 5:56 AM >>> I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used wi>> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 13:59:49 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 06:59:49 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Me too, please! Marianne --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:23 AM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would > like a copy. > > Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > > > > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and > Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian > numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian > words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words > look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional > between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > > > __________________________________________________ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > > Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just > neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my > attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying > attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem > retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. > Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, > although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the > pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved > R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs > of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and > disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- > French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. > Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia > may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some > Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade > language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all > unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes > Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > > > >> The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person >> pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 64). > > No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. > is *wi?e. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in > others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the > patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. > Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo > restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person > agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's > never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results > in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any > discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. > > But pay attention to Marianne too. > > I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that > they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo > in the paper. > > Bob > > > > The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = > 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = > 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' > and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is > an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation > of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the > limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time > of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. > Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, > effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take > stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). > > > So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or > 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' > > As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and > Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon > with Chitimacha 'go.' > > So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in > other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar > phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the > problem - I'm not sure. > > Dave > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Jun 16 14:44:47 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:44:47 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd like to have a copy of that as well. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:23 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jun 16 15:49:13 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 08:49:13 -0700 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: Yeah, I wouldn't mind a PDF of that, either. Thanks, Dave Costa -----Original Message----- From: "David Kaufman" Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 9:47 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' I'll take a copy. Dave On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sun Jun 16 17:47:17 2013 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:47:17 -0700 Subject: "Saponi" word list. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D4187@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk t?keni Oneida tekni Onondaga t?kni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron t?ni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora n?:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk y?:ya'k Oneida y?:ya'k Onondaga ?hya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jaj?ck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhah?a Tuscarora ?hya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Iroquoian words for.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 80504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jun 16 18:24:51 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:24:51 -0700 Subject: "Saponi" word list. Message-ID: I'm away from my materials for a few days, but I recall that the two probable Iroquoian numbers in the vocabulary weren't as clean a match for any known language as the obviously Algonquian numbers (all the rest). I wouldn't sweat the vowel discrepancy with 'two', since we don't have the original manuscript to consult and it's entirely possible that the 'o' is a misreading for handwritten 'e'. Either way those two numbers don't match anything in Algonquian or Siouan. Dave C -----Original Message----- From: "Marianne Mithun" Sent: ?6/?16/?2013 10:47 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk t?keni Oneida tekni Onondaga t?kni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron t?ni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora n?:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk y?:ya'k Oneida y?:ya'k Onondaga ?hya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jaj?ck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhah?a Tuscarora ?hya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Jun 16 22:07:02 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:07:02 +0000 Subject: "Saponi" word list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the help with the vocab., Marianne. Obviously I can't judge the Iroquoianess of the numeral terms, but I agree with Dave that the handwritten original may well have contained ambiguities. I'm quite sure that at least two or three of the Siouan terms got confused. I mention these in the discussion. Penmanship is at the center of several controversial names in those early documents. Take the name "Steukenocks", one of the Virginia tribes. There are a variety of spellings, but it's clear that the "eu" diphthong is really "en", the regular reflex of nasal */? / in the Tutelo as transcribed by several linguists. What was interpreted as "u" was really a cursive "n". The name is st?k-a-n?k-s 'island on-dwell aspect/mode suffix. And it clearly means 'island dwellers'. And of course several colonial documents mention prominently that the Tutelos, Saponies and Occaneechis all lived on islands in the river, presumably for protection. There are all kinds of these handwriting puzzles. The facsimile of the list in the Alexander publication is pretty clear, but it is a copy of a copy, and I have no way to check the original if it even exists still. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 1:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. I'm away from my materials for a few days, but I recall that the two probable Iroquoian numbers in the vocabulary weren't as clean a match for any known language as the obviously Algonquian numbers (all the rest). I wouldn't sweat the vowel discrepancy with 'two', since we don't have the original manuscript to consult and it's entirely possible that the 'o' is a misreading for handwritten 'e'. Either way those two numbers don't match anything in Algonquian or Siouan. Dave C ________________________________ From: Marianne Mithun Sent: ?6/?16/?2013 10:47 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: "Saponi" word list. Hi Bob, A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression. The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb 'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for 'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for glottal stop) and attach a pdf. Marianne Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six' 'two' (Alexander Tock) Mohawk t?keni Oneida tekni Onondaga t?kni Cayuga tekhni: Seneca tekhni: Susquehannock tiggene Laurentian tigneny Huron t?ni Wyandot tendi Tuscarora n?:kti: Nottoway dekanee Cherokee tha:li (Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling) 'six' (Alexander Quiock) Mohawk y?:ya'k Oneida y?:ya'k Onondaga ?hya'k Cayuga hye:i' Seneca ye:i' Susquehannock jaj?ck Laurentian aiaga 'seven' Huron houhah?a Tuscarora ?hya'k Nottoway oyag Cherokee sudali --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > Marianne, > > Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted > these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see > Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested. > I'll attempt to attach the original list here. > > Bob > ________________________________________ > From: Marianne Mithun [mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu] > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM > To: Rankin, Robert L. > Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK; > saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list. > > Thanks Bob! > > Marianne > > --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among >> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome. >> >> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold >> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy >> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to >> finish it and answer questions. . >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From salvucci at ARXPUB.COM Sun Jun 16 23:59:21 2013 From: salvucci at ARXPUB.COM (Claudio Salvucci) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:59:21 -0400 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'd be interested in the paper as well. -Claudio On Jun 16, 2013, at 12:23 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Jun 17 13:42:34 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:42:34 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D3EFF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information > about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" > version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like > a copy. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David > costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] > *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna > Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian > numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the > Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like > some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like > what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia > Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. > > Dave Costa > ------------------------------ > From: David Kaufman > Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > Bob, > > Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. > > It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do > seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like > 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of > my dissertation). It will require more analysis. > > I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but > apparently not. > > Dave > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >> >> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >> >> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >> is **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >> description. >> >> But pay attention to Marianne too. >> >> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >> the paper. >> >> Bob >> >> >> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >> >> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >> >> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >> with Chitimacha 'go.' >> >> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >> problem - I'm not sure. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> > [The entire original message is not included.] > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 14:48:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:48:34 +0000 Subject: Saponi vocab from Colonial Virginia Message-ID: Hi Lori, Here's the paper. It's not much more than a reasoned phonemicization of the handwritten scribbles of someone at the fort. Probably the most interesting facet is the fact that it may well be our one and only attestation of the Siouan-based pidgin that was used in colonial Virginia and West Virginia. Enjoy! Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Lori Stanley [stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:42 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like a copy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. Dave Costa ________________________________ From: David Kaufman Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Bob, Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of my dissertation). It will require more analysis. I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but apparently not. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. is *wi?e. It collapses to wie in some languages and wi: (long vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the b/p 1st person and the ? 2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's description. But pay attention to Marianne too. I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in the paper. Bob The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon with Chitimacha 'go.' So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the problem - I'm not sure. Dave On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: [The entire original message is not included.] -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Saponi list.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 462392 bytes Desc: Saponi list.pdf URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Jun 17 15:07:14 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:07:14 -0500 Subject: Saponi vocab from Colonial Virginia In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D489F@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Bob! On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > Hi Lori, > > Here's the paper. It's not much more than a reasoned phonemicization of > the handwritten scribbles of someone at the fort. Probably the most > interesting facet is the fact that it may well be our one and only > attestation of the Siouan-based pidgin that was used in colonial Virginia > and West Virginia. > > Enjoy! > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Lori > Stanley [stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU] > *Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2013 8:42 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' > > I would like to see this paper as well, Bob. Thanks! > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > >> Not off topic as far as I'm concerned. Every little bit of information >> about the Ft. Christanna vocab helps. I have a .pdf of the "improved" >> version of my paper on the Siouan parts of that vocab. if anyone would like >> a copy. >> >> Bob >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >> costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:36 AM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> This is perhaps off topic, but on the subject of the Fort Christanna >> Saponi vocabulary, Rich Rhodes and I discussed the Algonquian and Iroquoian >> numerals in that wordlist in our paper on Proto-Algonquian numbers in the >> Frank Siebert festschrift several years ago. The Iroquoian words look like >> some relative of Tuscarora while the Algonquian words look exactly like >> what you'd expect for a dialect that was transitional between Virginia >> Algonquian and North Carolina Algonquian. >> >> Dave Costa >> ------------------------------ >> From: David Kaufman >> Sent: ?6/?15/?2013 8:51 AM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' >> >> Bob, >> >> Thanks for your paper; it certainly clarifies the issue for Tutelo. >> >> It is of course peripheral to this List, but Atakapa and Chitimacha do >> seem to have this oddity of patient pronouns used for motion verbs like >> 'go', and this could also be due to contact in the region (the subject of >> my dissertation). It will require more analysis. >> >> I thought Tutelo may have somehow been doing something similar, but >> apparently not. >> >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >> >>> Sorry folks. I didn't realize this was a Siouan list query. I just >>> neglected to look at the return address. It doesn't matter except that my >>> attachment may not have been available. I don't recall trying attachments >>> on the U. of Nebraska server. If anyone had a problem retrieving the >>> paper, let me know and I'll send it in a personal email. Otherwise, just >>> read the paper. It supersedes Giulia's discussion, although I agree with >>> her that there was a reinterpretation in the pronominal prefix system. As >>> you'll see, the reinterpretation involved R-class and H-class verb stems. >>> The phonologically irregular allomorphs of the actor pronominals were lost >>> in those classes of verb and disambiguation of the results was achieved (as >>> in many languages -- French for example) by substituting the independent >>> pronominals. Surprise, surprise. There is little doubt about the source, >>> and Giulia may be right that it had something to do with the pidgin status >>> of some Virginia Siouan dialects. We can't know for sure because the trade >>> language isn't sufficiently attested. It may not be attested at all unless >>> the Ft. Christana Saponi vocabulary is an example (it includes Algonquian >>> vocab. along with garbled Tutelo) >>> >>> > The independent/disjunctive first person pronoun in Tutelo is wi:ma >>> (Oliverio p. 148); wi- is the stative/dative/patient first person pronoun >>> (Oliverio p. 71); wa- is the first person actor pronoun (Oliverio p. 64). >>> >>> No, wi:ma is a compound form. The original 1st person disjunctive prn. >>> is **wi?e*. It collapses to *wie* in some languages and *wi**: *(long >>> vowel) in others -- like Tutelo. The independent pronouns are ALL >>> derived from the patient pronominals throughout Siouan, but they are NOT >>> patients by role. Read the paper and you'll see how I, at least, analyze >>> Tutelo restructuring. They just lost the* b/p* 1st person and the* ?*2nd person agent/actor pronominals. 1st person wa- has nothing to do with >>> it. It's never used with R-stems, and 'go' is an R-stem. The >>> reanalysis results in large part from simple phonology. You can pretty >>> much ignore any discussion of active/stative semantics in Giulia's >>> description. >>> >>> But pay attention to Marianne too. >>> >>> I can't say anything about Atakapa or Chitimacha or whatever except that >>> they don't have anything to do with Tutelo. I talk about Biloxi and Ofo in >>> the paper. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> The sentences Oliverio (p. 63) gives are as follows: wi-le:-ta i-athi: = >>> 1sgP-go-POT DIR-house 'I am going to the house'; wi-hi:-ok hiyaNka = >>> 1sgP-arrive--past2 sleep 'I came, he was asleep.' Note that both 'go' and >>> 'come/arrive' use the first person patient/stative prefix. There is an >>> interesting quote by Oliverio: "...it seems that some reinterpretation of >>> the active/stative system took place, probably as a result of the limited >>> use of the language and semi-fluency of most speakers at the time of >>> collection, and from the probable use of Tutelo as a trade language. Thus >>> for instance some verbs of motion, denoting events performed, effected, and >>> instigated, and typically controlled, by the speaker, take stative >>> pronominal prefixes, not the expected active morphology" (p. 62). >>> >>> So, at least according to Oliverio and her consultants, her 'patient' or >>> 'stative' prefixes are used for 'go, come.' >>> >>> As I said, a similar phenomenon seems to occur in Atakapa with 'go', and >>> Danny Hieber, who works on Chitimacha, has discovered the same phenomenon >>> with Chitimacha 'go.' >>> >>> So it looks like this deserves further study, not only in Tutelo, but in >>> other languages (e.g., Atakapa, Chitimacha) that seem to share a similar >>> phenomenon. Perhaps Marianne is right; maybe the terminology is the >>> problem - I'm not sure. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> >>>> >> [The entire original message is not included.] >> > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Jun 17 16:44:53 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:44:53 -0600 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian (which > is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) are > obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So for > that, we just look at the marking on the end. > > Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are > states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm is > interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are used. > For inherent states, usually agent forms. > > For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant state: 'I > have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal prefixes. (I'm > just sitting here full now.) > > An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things that we > might think, from their translations, as say progressive: 'singing'. These > are often activities without a tangible product. The verb 'go' could be > interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at straws for an > explanation. > > (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with > patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or patient > paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will stick even if > the stem meanders semantically. > > Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically > agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects > obligatorily occurring with patients). > > Marianne > > > --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>> more common cross-linguistically. >>> >>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>> >>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>> >>> Marianne. >>> >>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person rather >>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>> University of Kansas >>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>> > From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jun 17 18:44:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 13:44:51 -0500 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Jun 17 18:57:53 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:57:53 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 21:26:48 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:26:48 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <51BF6A40.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Well, I agree with both of you to a point. If ire really means 'you go', then we have a little inflection. On the other hand, i- 'you' is a replacement prefix. The inherited 2nd person prefix would have been ?-. I- would be derived from the independent pronoun. So one could argue either way. Either it's inflection or it is the replacement of inflection with an independent pronoun. And the order is indeed the very un-Siouan SVO. Note, however, that there are several SVO sentences among those recorded by linguists looking at Tutelo proper. Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 1:57 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >> >> (Habituals and Perfectives usually occur with agents, but some occur with >> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of Kansas >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Jun 17 21:52:24 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:52:24 +0100 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' Message-ID: The use of SVO won't prove that something is pidginiselatid, but it would certainly be a signal that the data are anomalous (they could be translationese, Saponi words with English syntax). I think Dave and I can agree that seeing SVO order is enough to spark curiosity. The SVO in some Tutelo sentences surprises me - were the data not elicited via Cayuga? (Could Horatio H speak an Iroquoian language?) Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 06/17/13 10:29 PM >>> Well, I agree with both of you to a point. If ire really means 'you go', then we have a little inflection. On the other hand, i- 'you' is a replacement prefix. The inherited 2nd person prefix would have been ?-. I- would be derived from the independent pronoun. So one could argue either way. Either it's inflection or it is the replacement of inflection with an independent pronoun. And the order is indeed the very un-Siouan SVO. Note, however, that there are several SVO sentences among those recorded by linguists looking at Tutelo proper. Bob ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 1:57 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Tutelo verb 'go' Dave et al: this would be supportive but not definitive evidence. What is the clincher is the dearth of productive inflectional morphology. Anthony >>> David Kaufman 17/06/2013 19:44 >>> The one sentence in your data, Bob, 'hodke tok ire chunkete posse', would seem to indicate a pidginized language, since most pidgins, I think, adopt Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order (with the major exception of Mobilian Jargon, which maintained a verb-final order). Great paper! Dave On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Wow... sounds a little like the Hindi (and neighbors) shift from > accusative to ergative in perfect tenses. > > Have you ever thought of any tests for "stativity" in Siouan > besides the pronoun choices? Lakota stative verbs use a different pattern > for reduplication than do active verbs, and there are separate rules for > k-palatalization for statives (nikhuz^e without palatalization, e.g.). I > don't have those facts clear in my head, however. Anything else? > > I appreciate Bob's description of the evolution of these patterns > in OVS, blaming most of it on phonology, and I always prefer a phonological > explanation to a semantic one. But the fact that motion verbs take patient > pronouns here and there, as mentioned in some of the other contributions to > this thread, makes one wonder if there's more to it than phonology. > > Best, > David > > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: > > Ah, it's in the aspect suffixes, loud and clear. In Northern Iroquoian >> (which is all of Iroquoian except Cherokee), all verbs (except imperatives) >> are obligatorily inflected for aspect: Habitual, Perfective, or Stative. So >> for that, we just look at the marking on the end. >> >> Stative verbs include things that everyone would immediately agree are >> states: 'be rich', 'be new' . . . Here the choice of pronominal paradigm >> is interesting. For resultant states ('wet'), usually patient prefixes are >> used. For inherent states, usually agent forms. >> >> For transitive verbs, the statives are perfect, a kind of resultant >> state: 'I have eaten'. These have stative endings and patient pronominal >> prefixes. (I'm just sitting here full now.) >> >> An interesting wrinkle is that some formally stative verbs are things >> that we might think, from their translations, as say progressive: >> 'singing'. These are often activities without a tangible product. The verb >> 'go' could be interpreted as 'be in motion' perhaps, as one grasps at >> straws for an explanation. >>>> patients, such as 'to lose something', 'to yell', etc.) The agent or >> patient paradigm gets established with a particular verb stem, and will >> stick even if the stem meanders semantically. >> >> Iroquoian is thus a little more interesting, because there is a basically >> agent/patient system with an active/stative overlay (stative perfects >> obligatorily occurring with patients). >> >> Marianne >> >> >> --On Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:39 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S < >> david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote: >> >> Marianne, thanks for that little essay. What are the "stative" >>> properties of Iroquoian 'go'? I'm used to relying on the pronoun choice >>> to classify the verbs; how do you separate them? >>> Best, >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013, Marianne Mithun wrote: >>> >>> Actually this is exactly why it is important to distinguish >>>> active/stative patterns from agent/patient patterns. Active/stative >>>> patterns are driven by Aktionsart, that is, the difference between >>>> events and states. Agent/patient systems are driven by the role of the >>>> referent, as instigating, volitional, in control, etc. Both occur, >>>> sometimes within the same language, but agent/patient systems are much >>>> more common cross-linguistically. >>>> >>>> The two often yield similar patterns. Events are often instigated by >>>> agents and states often impact patients. A verb like 'jump' denotes an >>>> event and would usually appear with an agent in agent/patient systems, >>>> and an active participant in active/stative systems; a verb like 'be >>>> sick' denotes a state and would usually appear with a patient in >>>> agent/patient systems, and a stative participant in active/stative >>>> systems. But it is exactly in situations like the ones we're discussing >>>> that the distinction is important. From there of course >>>> cross-linguistic details become interesting: whether instigation or >>>> control is criterial when they do not coincide, what is classified as >>>> volitional, what is classified as a state, etc. >>>> >>>> (In Iroquoian languages, 'go' is grammatically stative, but occurs with >>>> agent pronominals, not surprisingly.) >>>> >>>> Marianne. >>>> >>>> --On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That sounds very peculiar to me. I suspect that what you're seeing is >>>>> the disjunctive (i.e., independent) pronominal for the 1st person >>>>> rather >>>>> than the patient. You may already have my active/stative comparative >>>>> paper, but just in case, I'll attach a copy. The last section is an >>>>> addition on OVS that attempts to explain the pronominals. Bottom line: >>>>> I don't think Tutelo uses stative subjects with "go". >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**____________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David >>>>> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 4:13 PM >>>>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>>> Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> It seems Tutelo's verb 'go' takes a patientive/object rather than >>>>> active/subject pronoun prefix, wi- instead of wa-. Does any other >>>>> Siouan language do this? (I can't compare with Biloxi since it lost >>>>> this agent/patient distinction in pronouns.) I'm particularly >>>>> interested in this because two Lower Mississippi Valley languages, >>>>> Atakapa and Chitimacha, also seem to take patientive/object instead of >>>>> active/subject pronouns with the verb 'go.' At first I thought this >>>>> was strange and counterintuitive, but now I'm seeing it may be a more >>>>> common phenomenon well beyond the Mississippi Valley. Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Kaufman, Ph.C. >>>>> University of KanLinguistic Anthropology Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Mon Jun 17 23:44:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 23:44:10 +0000 Subject: Tutelo verb 'go' In-Reply-To: <51BF9329020000A600091A71@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: > The SVO in some Tutelo sentences surprises me - were the data not elicited via Cayuga? (Could Horatio H speak an Iroquoian language?) Hale was an American lawyer who married a Canadian and moved to Canada. I'm pretty sure he didn't speak any languages with the possible exception of European tongues. J.N.B. Hewitt, on the other hand, WAS Iroquoian as far as I know and his Tutelo notes could have been elicited via Cayuga. I'd have to check and see who elicited the SVO examples. It should be in Oliverio's dissertation. I'm hearing about next year's Siouan Conference location as Madison, Wisconsin. That would be a terrific place to meet. Maybe this year's participants will tell us more. Bob From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Tue Jun 18 03:45:11 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:45:11 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! All best, Saul On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he > and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware > of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, > sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in > exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough > on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, > information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my > current delays. > > But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure > will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the > interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two > scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. > > We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous > time in DC. > Jimm > > *From:* Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good > news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the > one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get > some video material started, but learning new software is not really my > strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the > Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which > didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. > > > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > > Yes, Jill! > > Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future > rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ > statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are > worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM > Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day > tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a > more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost > Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film > makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all > scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I > will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a > printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be > approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production > of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time > (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs > draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will > be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to > give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, > where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of > state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning > from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & > lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with > my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and > staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of > all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our > family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile > system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid > custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I > want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua > private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I > have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in > Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers > tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic > achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the > moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) > grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be > included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource > Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below > are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ > assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, > but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that > the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the > B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our > Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > > Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun > hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me > gigr?nje taho. > > > > Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda > > Jimm > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 > - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but > if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was > SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - > it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul > Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? > > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the > American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon > Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating > Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, > Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the > table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never > heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand > it. > > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the > hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It > is simply: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? > glel?bli?." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and > source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come > across a Siouan one. > > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested > to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jun 18 03:55:48 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:55:48 -0700 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Message-ID: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 15:41:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:41:11 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jun 18 16:03:51 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:03:51 -0500 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: <68ja6wvcdjk8sdx9v7fc3fj3.1371569036979@email.android.com> Message-ID: I think he must have fallen asleep at his keyboard. Dave On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > *Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID* > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC > c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Jun 18 16:26:56 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Glad to hear that Dave! I was a little worried for a bit. Rory From: David costa [mailto:pankihtamwa at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:05 AM To: Rory Larson Subject: RE: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Sorry folks, new phone and I have no idea how that happened! Dave ________________________________ From: Rory Larson Sent: ?6/?18/?2013 6:37 AM To: pankihtamwa at earthlink.net Subject: RE: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Cat on the keyboard? :) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David costa Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:56 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Tue Jun 18 16:29:36 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: <68ja6wvcdjk8sdx9v7fc3fj3.1371569036979@email.android.com> Message-ID: Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meya at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Jun 18 16:41:34 2013 From: meya at LAKHOTA.ORG (Wilhelm K. Meya) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:41:34 -0400 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: <51C08AF0.3020300@usask.ca> Message-ID: Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil > Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director > > Lakota Language Consortium > 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 > Bloomington, IN 47404 > > Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 > Tel.- 812.961.0140 > Cell.- 812.340.3517 > Fax.- 812.961.0141 > meya at lakhota.org > > http://www.lakhota.org > > From: Mary C Marino Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > > And the same to you with knobs on. > > > > > Bob > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID > > > > David costa > wrote: > > > > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. > ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u. > unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC2013.jpg Type: application/applefile Size: 73444 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC2013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 693467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jun 18 17:01:43 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David costa) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:01:43 -0700 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Message-ID: I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave -----Original Message----- From: "Mary C Marino" Sent: ?6/?18/?2013 9:29 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue Jun 18 17:47:13 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:47:13 +0100 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave: Did your cat land on the keyboard or something? >>> David costa 18/06/2013 18:01 >>> I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave -----Original Message----- From: "Mary C Marino" Sent: ?6/?18/?2013 9:29 AM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > And the same to you with knobs on. > > Bob > > /Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID/ > > > David costa wrote: > > xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc > cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn > xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb > nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn > nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 18:38:56 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:38:56 +0000 Subject: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me, I think you tried texting while driving with that new phone. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb I think Mary wins the prize for best response. :) Dave ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino Sent: ?6/?18/?2013 9:29 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue Jun 18 19:07:34 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:07:34 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wil, Many thanks for sharing the pictures. Looks like you had a really good crowd. I'm very sorry I missed everything. Next year for sure. I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. All best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wilhelm K. Meya [meya at LAKHOTA.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil ________________________________ Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: > Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Jun 18 20:17:06 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:17:06 -0500 Subject: SCLC pics Message-ID: We missed you, Bob! >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 06/18/13 2:08 PM >>> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Wil, Many thanks for sharing the pictures. Looks like you had a really good crowd. I'm very sorry I missed everything. Next year for sure. I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. All best, Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wilhelm K. Meya [meya at LAKHOTA.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org From: Mary C Marino Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Jun 18 23:13:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:13:08 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice pictures, Wil. And let me express my thanks to you, Armik, Jan and John Boyle for all your work and hospitality in setting us up there. It acquainted me with a corner of Siouan studies I hadn't been much aware of, and I really have to say I'm impressed with your program. Keep up the great work! Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Wilhelm K. Meya Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:42 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: SCLC pics Hi All, Here are some of the pictures from the 2013 SCLC conference: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 They are also on the 2013 SCLC facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/207225216083099/# It was fantastic to see everyone and hear the great papers! Best, Wil ________________________________ Wilhelm K. Meya, Executive Director Lakota Language Consortium 2620 N. Walnut St., Suite 1280 Bloomington, IN 47404 Toll-Free- 888.525.6828 Tel.- 812.961.0140 Cell.- 812.340.3517 Fax.- 812.961.0141 meya at lakhota.org http://www.lakhota.org ________________________________ From: Mary C Marino > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:29:36 -0600 To: > Subject: Re: Zx z zocnnxxnxxxnxxxxxbxnxnbbbxxnbcb Well, I don't know, Bob -- maybe he's right. Who's to say? Mary On 18/06/2013 9:41 AM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: And the same to you with knobs on. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID David costa wrote: xxbxx,xxx cx c,xcc n,b,n BC cnc xnxn,n,n,n,bbxxxb,bc cbxxnxbxxbx. ,xb,xxx xb, xxbx x x, ,cn, ,ncn xxxn,NC c,n.n.b.un.nhnh.huhn.u.hununhhb nu.y.h.hn.h.....hn.hnunh.bu.h.h..bhnnnnhnhunu.h.nununjn.unnjnun.uh.h..un.uh.u.unnjn..h.hnhnhnh.nnhnnnhnjnjnnnjnnnnn.nnnnnnjnjnjnnnjjnnnnnnnjnnnnnnnnnnnn nnb bnn n n nnbn nnnb b. bbbb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 19 18:33:15 2013 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:33:15 -0500 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D552E@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: >>I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. That would have been me, Bob. In my talk about the bundling of Siouan Dictionary resources.. Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Wed Jun 19 20:37:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:37:03 +0000 Subject: SCLC pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Iren, I sort of figured that out from comparing the clock on the wall just above the photo with the published schedule of the papers, but it was a gal with big eyeglasses and didn't look like you. Anyway, I'm really sorry I missed all the papers. I'm going to ask people for .PDFs. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Iren Hartmann [wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: SCLC pics >>I'm trying to figure out who that was referring to my Kaw database on a projection screen. That would have been me, Bob. In my talk about the bundling of Siouan Dictionary resources.. Best, Iren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jun 22 06:44:32 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 23:44:32 -0700 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning Message-ID: Any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Ama?: = Earth Yesa? = People (alternate for people is Relative ? Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) Monasukapanough ?But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.?--- William Byrd (1728) Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it?s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. I've also seen Sapinney. Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable?s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---?American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence?, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 ? 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Sapan (pronounced [?sa?p??n]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sap?n". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into ?softened by water?. See, ?Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico?, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652. ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jun 22 07:06:05 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 00:06:05 -0700 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371883472.34422.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seponican ? Proceedings of the New York State Historical Association, Volume 6 ?By New York State Historical Association http://books.google.com/books?id=0TmYlrp7AZcC&pg=RA1-PA7&dq=Saponican&hl=en&ei=gx9eTbqrGZTpgAeptKTrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Saponican&f=false ? Saponickan and Sapohanican are the earliest forms of a name which appears later Sappokanican, Sappokanikke, Saponican, Shaw-backanica, Taponkanico, etc. ? A piece of land bounded on the north by the strand road, called Saponickan? (1629); ?Tobacco plantation near Sapohanican? (1639); ?Plantation situate against the Reed Valley beyond Sappokanican? (1640). ?Wouter van Twiller purchased the tract, in 1629, for the use of the Dutch government and established thereon a tobacco plantation, with buildings enclosed in palisade, which subsequently became known as ?the little village of Sapokanican--- Sappokanican--- Van der Donck--- and later (1721) as Greenwich Village. It occupied very nearly the site of the present Gansevort market. The ?Strand road? is now Greenwich Street. It was primarily, an Indian path along the shore of the river north, with branches to Harlem and other points, the main path continuing the trunk-path through Raritan Valley, but locally beginning at the ?crossing-place? or as the record reads, ?Where the Indians cross [the Hudson] to bring their pelteries.? ?South of Van Twiller's plantation was a marsh much affected by wild fowl, and a bright, quick brook, called by the Dutch ?Bestavar's Kil?, and by the English ?Manetta Water.??( Half-Moon Series.) Saponickan was in place here when Van Twiller made his purchase (1629), as the record shows, and was adopted by him as the name of his settlement. To what feature it referred cannot be positively stated, but apparently to the Reed Valley or marsh. It has had several interpretations, but none that are satisfactory. The syllable pon may denote a bulbous root which was found there. (See Passapenoc.) The same name is probably met in Saphorakam, or Saphonakan, given as the name of a tract described as ?Marsh and canebrake,? lying near or on the shore of Gowanus Bay, Brooklyn. (See Kanonnewage, in connection with Manhattan.) Also see the following as to the name: ?Four dayes Journey from your forte Southerward is a town called Ononahorne, seated where the river Choanock divideth itself into three branches and falleth into the sea of Rawnocke in thirty five degrees. If you make your principall and choise seate you shall doe most safely and richly because you are in the heart of Lands open to the south and two of the best rivers will supply you, besides you are neare to with Copper mines of Ritane and may passe them by one branch of the river, and by another Peccareca- micke where you shall finde four of the Englishe alsoe, lost by Sir Walter Raweley, which escaped from the slaughter of Powhatan of Roanocke upon the first arivall of our Colony and live under the protection of a wiroano call?d Sepanocan enemy to Powhatan, by whose consent you shall never receive them, one of these were worth much laboar and if you finde them not, yet search into this contrey it is more probable than towardes the North.? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 1:44 AM Any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Ama?: = Earth Yesa? = People (alternate for people is Relative ? Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) Monasukapanough ?But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.?--- William Byrd (1728) Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it?s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. I've also seen Sapinney. Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable?s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---?American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence?, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 ? 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Sapan (pronounced [?sa?p??n]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sap?n". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into ?softened by water?. See, ?Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico?, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652. ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 22 22:29:27 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:29:27 +0000 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371884765.28190.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Saponickan and Sapohanican are the earliest forms of a name which appears later Sappokanican, Sappokanikke, Saponican, Shaw-backanica, Taponkanico, etc. ? A piece of land bounded on the north by the strand road, called Saponickan? (1629); ?Tobacco plantation near Sapohanican? (1639); ?Plantation situate against the Reed Valley beyond Sappokanican? (1640). Wouter van Twiller purchased the tract, in 1629, for the use of the Dutch government and established thereon a tobacco plantation, with buildings enclosed in palisade, which subsequently became known as ?the little village of Sapokanican--- Sappokanican--- Van der Donck--- and later (1721) as Greenwich Village. It occupied very nearly the site of the present Gansevort market. The ?Strand road? is now Greenwich Street. It was primarily, an Indian path along the shore of the river north, with branches to Harlem and other points, the main path continuing the trunk-path through Raritan Valley, but locally beginning at the ?crossing-place? or as the record reads, ?Where the Indians cross [the Hudson] to bring their pelteries.? ?South of Van Twiller's plantation was a marsh much affected by wild fowl, and a bright, quick brook, called by the Dutch ?Bestavar's Kil?, and by the English ?Manetta Water.??( Half-Moon Series.) Saponickan was in place here when Van Twiller made his purchase (1629), as the record shows, and was adopted by him as the name of his settlement. To what feature it referred cannot be positively stated, but apparently to the Reed Valley or marsh. It has had several interpretations, but none that are satisfactory. The syllable pon may denote a bulbous root which was found there. (See Passapenoc.) The same name is probably met in Saphorakam, or Saphonakan, given as the name of a tract described as ?Marsh and canebrake,? lying near or on the shore of Gowanus Bay, Brooklyn. (See Kanonnewage, in connection with Manhattan.) The above all seems to be about New York City. While it's true that the Tutelos and Saponis migrated to Pennsylvania and thence to NY state, they went to northern NY state. There is nothing in the histories to connect them with Manhattan Island. It's possible that somewhere in the local histories of northern NY there may be some trace of the Saponis, but none has been found so far. >?Four dayes Journey from your forte Southerward is a town called Ononahorne, seated where the river Choanock divideth itself into three branches and falleth into the sea of Rawnocke in thirty five degrees. If you make your principall and choise seate you shall doe most safely and richly because you are in the heart of Lands open to the south and two of the best rivers will supply you, besides you are neare to with Copper mines of Ritane and may passe them by one branch of the river, and by another Peccareca- micke where you shall finde four of the Englishe alsoe, lost by Sir Walter Raweley, which escaped from the slaughter of Powhatan of Roanocke upon the first arivall of our Colony and live under the protection of a wiroano call?d Sepanocan enemy to Powhatan, by whose consent you shall never receive them, one of these were worth much laboar and if you finde them not, yet search into this contrey it is more probable than towardes the North.? This passage is more interesting and may well mention the Saponis. That's about all I can say though. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat Jun 22 22:20:13 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:20:13 +0000 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <1371883472.34422.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings? There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree. I don't see why there would be anything more than coincidence with 'flat'. > It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it. I'd guess not. There is a basic problem with assuming that tribal names have some identifiable meaning. Most of them simply don't. If they had any original meaning, it's been lost. The words for the Ponca, Kansa, Osage and Ioway have no identifiable meaning. There are folk analyses and stories, but no solid etymologies. On the other hand, Omaha and Quapaw do evidently have etymologies as 'upstream' and 'downstream' people. > Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red Ama?: = Earth Yesa? = People (alternate for people is Relative ? Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191) I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I don't think there's any evidence for 'red earth people'. > Monasukapanough ?But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.?--- William Byrd (1728) Yes, that's what moni seep means OK. > Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329) Mani: = Water Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd} Yes, those are apparently the same. I don't know what spelling rules Byrd used or the exact value of his letters. > If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it?s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as: Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89. Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map. Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2. Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83. Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii. Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y). Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582. Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866. Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75. Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808. Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215. Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271. Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169. Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884. Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e). Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131. Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643. Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490. Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674. All these are attempts by Europeans and White Americans to write down Indian words that contained sounds and sequences of sounds that were unfamiliar to them. I've also seen Sapinney. > Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be? No way to know. Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable?s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---?American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence?, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 ? 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206 Actually, it's the spelling Pawnee that is an attempt to render the syllables pa-ni. As far as I know there is no specific evidence that the Pawnees were ever east of the Mississippi. "...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849. > Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca. Those are reasonable questions. Certainly there are no Siouan languages in which descriptive modifiers precede the noun. I doubt that Iroquois influence was that great at the time Hale did his work, but I can't say for sure. > Sapan (pronounced [?sa?p??n]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sap?n". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011 Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into ?softened by water?. See, ?Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico?, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652. I don't know that it would have anything to do with the Siouan name though. I wish I had answers for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Jun 24 03:12:53 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 21:12:53 -0600 Subject: Saponi Name Origin and Meaning In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236D73D9@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: My ignorance of names and naming customs is vast, so I apologize if the following is a dumb comment. However, At least some of the time, the word we have in English for a tribal name is not from the language of that tribe at all, but rather the result of asking someone "who lives over there?" and getting the answer in the language of the neighbors, not the self-designation of the tribe. Is there any point in even trying to figure out a Siouan etymology for this name? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu