From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Mar  1 20:55:59 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:55:59 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1361844935.30252.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.135559.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and
for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.
Bryan


2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM
>
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ******
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.****
>
> ** **
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se****
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Mar  1 21:49:51 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:49:51 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOiE1=cdofhRkhTi-Q4yP93guf6BJJA5rcOtajxXxkzMfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.214951.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Mar  1 22:20:20 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:20:20 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DD5A@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.152020.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona
moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody",
"uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/.

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

>  Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it
> appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently
> translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop,
> from a height.****
>
> ** **
>
> Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!****
>
> ** **
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ** **
>
> In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and
> for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
> the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.****
>
> Bryan****
>
> ** **
>
> 2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>****
>
> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:****
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM****
>
> ** **
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave****
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
>   ****
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". ****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) ****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se ** **
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Mar  1 23:47:41 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 23:47:41 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOh-zjuBA6X331dhqGv37_LOQoBnYzhxa9csWTmJhDWCNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.234741.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Goⁿ gatʰegoⁿ Arizona nikkashiⁿga ama gizhu noⁿ, ebthegoⁿ!

Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t desirable.  So if you say:

                uxpathe-akkithe

I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say:

                uxpathe-akkethe

it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”.

I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.


Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it:


1.       losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.)

2.       losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)

3.       losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.)


Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/.

Bryan
2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>>
Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>

Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Mar  2 15:36:18 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:36:18 -0800
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DDC0@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.073618.0800.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe
 
Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?
 
 
 


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Fri, 3/1/13, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU> wrote:


From: Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 5:47 PM







Goⁿ gatʰegoⁿ Arizona nikkashiⁿga ama gizhu noⁿ, ebthegoⁿ!
 
Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t desirable.  So if you say:
 
                uxpathe-akkithe
 
I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say:
 
                uxpathe-akkethe
 
it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”.
 
I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.
 
 
Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it:
 
1.       losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.)
2.       losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)
3.       losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.)
 
 
Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!
 
Rory
 
 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
 


 
Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!

 

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/. 

 

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>


Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.
 
Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!
 
Rory
 
 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu



Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


 

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.

Bryan

 

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>





Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 

 

 

 




Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM


 

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'  

Dave

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:




 
Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 
  
I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 
Literally, "no balance". 
lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 
lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 
Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 

 

 


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."





-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




 
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 




 
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 
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From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Mar  2 15:57:03 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:57:03 -0800
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362238578.22869.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.075703.0800.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


I find the word allow = kiloxko: then the word for to = nikas and go down = ohita ; thus together nikas:kiloxko:ohita. Ta is a magnifer word which means great or big and so I'm thinking the root word to ohita and ohiki is ohi. So is it possible that ohi is the word for drop?
 
 
 
 

Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Sat, 3/2/13, Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:


From: Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 9:36 AM







I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe
 
Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?
 
 
 


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Fri, 3/1/13, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU> wrote:


From: Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 5:47 PM







Goⁿ gatʰegoⁿ Arizona nikkashiⁿga ama gizhu noⁿ, ebthegoⁿ!
 
Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t desirable.  So if you say:
  
                uxpathe-akkithe 
  
I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say: 
  
                uxpathe-akkethe 
  
it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”. 
  
I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha. 
  
  
Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it: 
  
1.       losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.) 
2.       losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.) 
3.       losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.) 
  
  
Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama! 
  
Rory 
  
  

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
  


 
Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ! 

 

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/. 

 

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>


Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.
 
Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ! 
  
Rory 
  
  

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu



Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


 

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.

Bryan

 

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>





Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 

 

 

 




Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote: 


From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM 


 

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'  

Dave

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:




 

Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 
  
I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 
Literally, "no balance". 
lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 
lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 
Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 

 

 


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."





-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




 
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 




 
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 

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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Mar  2 18:25:42 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:25:42 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362238578.22869.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.182542.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


> I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe. Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?

Looks like you're right.  Here are the 'fall, lose' terms from my comparative Siouan file.  If you have questions about the two letter abbreviations for the various languages, let me know.

Bob

GLOSS[ fall †hį 0.0, hį-pe

ProtoDH[ *hí•phe

KS[ hí•phe ‘fall’ RR

OS[ †híphe “hípshe” ‘stumble and fall, trip’ LF-61b



TU[ †hįpé “himpéwa” ‘fall down’ Hw.

 COM[ There are too few forms here to give us a truly secure reconstruction;  however, the forms that do exist suggest a PSI compound |*hi•-phe|.  QU |hide| ‘drop, cause to fall’ probably contains the initial root of this form.

 ==========================================================

GLOSS[ fall †pE x.0 >lie down



GRAMCAT[ V

PSI[ *xapÉPCH[ *xap-

CR[ xapí ‘lie down, fall’ RG

HI[ xápi ‘lie down, recline’ J

HI[ xphe, ara- ‘kick sth. off of sth.’ J

HI[ xphe, na- ‘knock down from a high place’ (rka) J

HI[ xphe, nú- ‘take down’ J

HI[ xphe, pá- ‘push off, knock down, knock off’ J



PMA[ *-xpe-

MA[ wakípxeʔš ‘I fell in’ C



PMV[ *xpa-



PDA[ *xpA

LA[ xpáya ‘lie down’ C

LA[ xpahą́ ‘thrown down’ C

LA[ oxpA´ ‘drop’ C

LA[ xpá, na- ‘be kicked off or out.’ B-815

LA[ xpa, oká- ‘make fall into by striking’ B-383

LA[ xpáxpa, ka- ‘strike and make pieces fly off, as from wood

    or ice’ B-275

LA[ xpá, wa- ‘cut off anything and let it fall’ B-519

LA[ xpá, wo- ‘make fall by shooting, to shoot down, as a bird

    on the wing’ B-598

LA[ xpá, ya- ‘pull something with the mouth so as to make it

    come down, as a dog jumping at a piece of beef. to throw anything

    down with’ B-620

LA[ xpá, yu- ‘pull something, so as to make it fall; to loosen

    the bow string after use; to throw down e.g. one’s load, to shake

    off’ B-639

LA[ xpa, yuáka- ‘cover, conceal’ B-633

LA[ xpa, apá- ‘throw down on’ B-88

DA[ xpa  “ḣpa” ‘thrown down’ R-166b



CH[ oxwą́ñe ‘fall down’ JOD



PDH[ *xpare

OP[ †oxpáðe “uxpathe “SW-74

KS[ oxpáye ‘fall off’ RR

KS[ obáxpaye ‘push off, shove sth. off’ RR

KS[ obúxpaye ‘push somebody off (old fused causative?)’ RR

KS[ ogáxpaye ‘knock somebody off of a horse, perch, etc.’ RR

KS[ oną́xpaye ‘kick something off its platform.’ RR

KS[ obóxpaye ‘shoot down, shoot and cause to fall’ RR

KS[ odáxpaye ‘burn down, cause to fall by burning’ RR

KS[ oyúxpaye ‘fall from the hand, let, to lose.’ RR

OS[ †oxpáðe “uxpáthe” ‘fall, become lost’ LF-181b

QU[ oxpáde ‘fall from a height’ JOD

QU[ obáxpade ‘push off and cause to fall’ RR

QU[ obíxpade ‘fall, cause by pressure/weight’ RR

QU[ odíxpade ‘pull off and cause to fall’ RR

QU[ okáxpade ‘knock off, cause to fall off’ RR

QU[ oną́xpade ‘kick something down’ RR

QU[ opóxpade ‘shoot down’ RR



BI[ xapká ‘flat, low’ DS-225 (?)



COM[ HI, LA, CH, and DH show forms with a relic, fused causative which is no longer conjugated as a causative.  MA |wą́xpe| ‘nine’ (one laid/hangs down?) may also belong here, although it is a rather peculiar form, being exceptional with regard to the normal MA constraint against clusters with |p| as second element.


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Mar  2 18:33:06 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:33:06 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362239823.91277.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.183306.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> I'm thinking the root word to ohita and ohiki is ohi. So is it possible that ohi is the word for drop?

Yes, I think that's one of the things the cognate sets suggest.

Bob



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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar  2 18:44:40 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:44:40 -0600
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236942D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.124440.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I can add to this that Biloxi seems to have capi 'drop' (e.g., du-capi
'fall by [from] hand') and (h)ide 'fall (of its own accord).'  Also taho
(~toho) 'lie'/'recline' is used at times, such as in oktaho 'make fall by
shooting/shoot down'.  Ofo has atonahi, with that familiar -hi.

Dave

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>
>    > I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but
> I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe. Is it
> possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root
> word?
>
> Looks like you're right.  Here are the 'fall, lose' terms from my
> comparative Siouan file.  If you have questions about the two letter
> abbreviations for the various languages, let me know.
>
> Bob
>
>
> GLOSS[ fall †hį 0.0, hį-pe
>
> ProtoDH[ *hí•phe
>
> KS[ hí•phe ‘fall’ RR
>
> OS[ †híphe “hípshe” ‘stumble and fall, trip’ LF-61b
>
>
>
> TU[ †hįpé “himpéwa” ‘fall down’ Hw.
>
>  COM[ There are too few forms here to give us a truly secure
> reconstruction;  however, the forms that do exist suggest a PSI compound
> |*hi•-phe|.  QU |hide| ‘drop, cause to fall’ probably contains the
> initial root of this form.
>
>  ==========================================================
>
> GLOSS[ fall †pE x.0 >lie down
>
>
>
> GRAMCAT[ V
> PSI[ *xapÉPCH[ *xap-
>
> CR[ xapí ‘lie down, fall’ RG
>
> HI[ xápi ‘lie down, recline’ J
>
> HI[ xphe, ara- ‘kick sth. off of sth.’ J
>
> HI[ xphe, na- ‘knock down from a high place’ (rka) J
>
> HI[ xphe, nú- ‘take down’ J
>
> HI[ xphe, pá- ‘push off, knock down, knock off’ J
>
>
>
> PMA[ *-xpe-
>
> MA[ wakípxeʔš ‘I fell in’ C
>
>
>
> PMV[ *xpa-
>
>
>
> PDA[ *xpA
>
> LA[ xpáya ‘lie down’ C
>
> LA[ xpahą́ ‘thrown down’ C
>
> LA[ oxpA´ ‘drop’ C
>
> LA[ xpá, na- ‘be kicked off or out.’ B-815
>
> LA[ xpa, oká- ‘make fall into by striking’ B-383
>
> LA[ xpáxpa, ka- ‘strike and make pieces fly off, as from wood
>
>     or ice’ B-275
>
> LA[ xpá, wa- ‘cut off anything and let it fall’ B-519
>
> LA[ xpá, wo- ‘make fall by shooting, to shoot down, as a bird
>
>     on the wing’ B-598
>
> LA[ xpá, ya- ‘pull something with the mouth so as to make it
>
>     come down, as a dog jumping at a piece of beef. to throw anything
>
>     down with’ B-620
>
> LA[ xpá, yu- ‘pull something, so as to make it fall; to loosen
>
>     the bow string after use; to throw down e.g. one’s load, to shake
>
>     off’ B-639
>
> LA[ xpa, yuáka- ‘cover, conceal’ B-633
>
> LA[ xpa, apá- ‘throw down on’ B-88
>
> DA[ xpa  “h*̇*pa” ‘thrown down’ R-166b
>
>
>
> CH[ oxwą́ñe ‘fall down’ JOD
>
>
>
> PDH[ *xpare
>
> OP[ †oxpáðe “uxpathe “SW-74
>
> KS[ oxpáye ‘fall off’ RR
>
> KS[ obáxpaye ‘push off, shove sth. off’ RR
>
> KS[ obúxpaye ‘push somebody off (old fused causative?)’ RR
>
> KS[ ogáxpaye ‘knock somebody off of a horse, perch, etc.’ RR
>
> KS[ oną́xpaye ‘kick something off its platform.’ RR
>
> KS[ obóxpaye ‘shoot down, shoot and cause to fall’ RR
>
> KS[ odáxpaye ‘burn down, cause to fall by burning’ RR
>
> KS[ oyúxpaye ‘fall from the hand, let, to lose.’ RR
>
> OS[ †oxpáðe “uxpáthe” ‘fall, become lost’ LF-181b
>
> QU[ oxpáde ‘fall from a height’ JOD
>
> QU[ obáxpade ‘push off and cause to fall’ RR
>
> QU[ obíxpade ‘fall, cause by pressure/weight’ RR
>
> QU[ odíxpade ‘pull off and cause to fall’ RR
>
> QU[ okáxpade ‘knock off, cause to fall off’ RR
>
> QU[ oną́xpade ‘kick something down’ RR
>
> QU[ opóxpade ‘shoot down’ RR
>
>
>
> BI[ xapká ‘flat, low’ DS-225 (?)
>
>
>
> COM[ HI, LA, CH, and DH show forms with a relic, fused causative which is
> no longer conjugated as a causative.  MA |wą́xpe| ‘nine’ (one laid/hangs
> down?) may also belong here, although it is a rather peculiar form, being
> exceptional with regard to the normal MA constraint against clusters with
> |p| as second element.
>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Fri Mar  8 17:52:19 2013
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: relevant articles
Message-ID: <FRI.8.MAR.2013.105219.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two 
articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries 
in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A 
Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".

Congratulations to both authors.

Best,
 	David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar  8 19:05:31 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 13:05:31 -0600
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1303080832110.29109@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.MAR.2013.130531.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, David!

Dave

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu>wrote:

> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two
> articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries
> in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A
> Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
>
> Congratulations to both authors.
>
> Best,
>         David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Mar  9 12:09:33 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 12:09:33 +0000
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjT0sOhuFArkcgF6KxPnOJo3MdCn=fcXCXa8N-KHLiUEyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.MAR.2013.120933.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks David
Bruce
On 8 Mar 2013, at 19:05, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Thanks, David!
> 
> Dave
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu> wrote:
> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
> 
> Congratulations to both authors.
> 
> Best,
>         David
> 
> 
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology

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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Sat Mar  9 16:15:00 2013
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 10:15:00 -0600
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1303080832110.29109@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.MAR.2013.101500.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for this, David.
Mary


On 08/03/2013 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has 
> two articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional 
> auxiliaries in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or 
> Coordination? A Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
>
> Congratulations to both authors.
>
> Best,
>     David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Mar 26 07:04:54 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:04:54 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DDC0@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.000454.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Shé-tʰe gízhu-noⁿi-tʰe ithápahoⁿ-mázhi, óⁿthiⁿi-tʰe. Oⁿthániudoⁿ-átʰsh.

I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that
prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take
that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which
seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

My fate in Panama was nothing compared to the rest of last year - that one
will go down in the history books. But it's over, so don't worry!

Bryan


2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

>  Goⁿ gatʰegoⁿ Arizona nikkashiⁿga ama gizhu noⁿ, ebthegoⁿ!****
>
> ** **
>
> Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it
> about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary,
> and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the
> kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than
> that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t
> desirable.  So if you say:****
>
> ** **
>
>                 uxpathe-akkithe****
>
> ** **
>
> I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say:****
>
> ** **
>
>                 uxpathe-akkethe****
>
> ** **
>
> it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”.****
>
> ** **
>
> I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be
> pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than
> one way to take it:****
>
> ** **
>
> **1.       **losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in
> Omaha.)****
>
> **2.       **losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in
> Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)*
> ***
>
> **3.       **losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in
> Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.)****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last
> messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!****
>
> ** **
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona
> moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!****
>
> ** **
>
> Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody",
> "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Bryan****
>
> 2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>****
>
> Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it
> appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently
> translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop,
> from a height.****
>
>  ****
>
> Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!****
>
>  ****
>
> Rory****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu****
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ****
>
> In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and
> for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
> the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.****
>
> Bryan****
>
>  ****
>
> 2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>****
>
> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:****
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM****
>
>  ****
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave****
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:****
>
>  ****
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
>   ****
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". ****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) ****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se ** **
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 26 09:15:40 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 04:15:40 -0500
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhH8T9rRDLm+jV_BDfGc=PP_5KmRbYD4mz_7BJmywcv-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.041540.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Rory:
In IOM the use of the word:  uxwañi,    parallels the Omaha, in reference to:  lost, get lost; drop, fall.
Jimm  

Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’. The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.     Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/. 
Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it:


1. losing a thing (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.)

2. losing a person (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha. I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)

3. losing your way (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha. I’ll have to ask.)


From: Bryan James Gordon 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:04 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

Shé-tʰe gízhu-noⁿi-tʰe ithápahoⁿ-mázhi, óⁿthiⁿi-tʰe. Oⁿthániudoⁿ-átʰsh. 

I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

My fate in Panama was nothing compared to the rest of last year - that one will go down in the history books. But it's over, so don't worry!

Bryan



2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

  Goⁿ gatʰegoⁿ Arizona nikkashiⁿga ama gizhu noⁿ, ebthegoⁿ!



  Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t desirable.  So if you say:



                  uxpathe-akkithe



  I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say:



                  uxpathe-akkethe



  it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”.



  I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.





  Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it:



  1.       losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.)

  2.       losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)

  3.       losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.)





  Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!



  Rory





  From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM


  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
  Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost




  Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!



  Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/. 



  Bryan

  2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

  Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.



  Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!



  Rory





  From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu


  Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost



  In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.

  Bryan



  2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

        Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 









        Scott P. Collins
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

        Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

        “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

        "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

        --- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


          From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
          Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
          To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
          Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM



          The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'  

          Dave

          On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:



                Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
               

          What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 

            

          I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 

          Literally, "no balance". 

          lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 

          lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 

          Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 






          Scott P. Collins
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

          Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

          “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

          "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
       




  -- 
  David Kaufman, Ph.C.
  University of Kansas
  Linguistic Anthropology







  -- 
  ***********************************************************
  Bryan James Gordon, MA
  Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
  University of Arizona
  *********************************************************** 







  -- 
  ***********************************************************
  Bryan James Gordon, MA
  Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
  University of Arizona
  *********************************************************** 





-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Mar 26 19:12:00 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:12:00 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhH8T9rRDLm+jV_BDfGc=PP_5KmRbYD4mz_7BJmywcv-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.191200.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The vast majority of verb prefixes with the vowel /e/ appear to be contractions of /a/ + /i/ and are long vowels.  I can't think of any in Kaw or Quapaw that weren't /wee/ < wa- + locative ii-.  Kke- is a new one on me.  Keep us posted.

Bob

> I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn’t desirable.  So if you say:

                uxpathe-akkithe

I think it would mean “I lost myself (intentionally)”, but if you say:

                uxpathe-akkethe

it would mean “I got lost (it happened to me)”.

I’m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.


Also, on the original question of ‘lose’/’lost’, there might be more than one way to take it:


1.       losing a thing              (That would be “uxpare-re” in Omaha.)

2.       losing a person          (That might be “mugroⁿ are” in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, “went mugroⁿ”.)

3.       losing your way         (I’m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I’ll have to ask.)


Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


Óⁿhoⁿ, Panama-thoⁿdi uxpáthe-akitha-mazhi ede théthudi Arizona moⁿzhoⁿ-thoⁿdi oⁿwóⁿxpathe moⁿbthiⁿ shóⁿshoⁿ!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "uíxpathe" /uixpaðe/.

Bryan
2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>>
Looking at the dictionary I’ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ‘lose’.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama roⁿdi uxparerira-baži tʰe udoⁿ!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>

Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpaðe/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpaðe-ðe/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Mar  1 20:55:59 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:55:59 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1361844935.30252.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.135559.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and
for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.
Bryan


2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM
>
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ******
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.****
>
> ** **
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se****
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Mar  1 21:49:51 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:49:51 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOiE1=cdofhRkhTi-Q4yP93guf6BJJA5rcOtajxXxkzMfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.214951.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Mar  1 22:20:20 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:20:20 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DD5A@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.152020.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona
mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody",
"u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/.

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

>  Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it
> appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently
> translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop,
> from a height.****
>
> ** **
>
> Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!****
>
> ** **
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ** **
>
> In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and
> for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
> the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.****
>
> Bryan****
>
> ** **
>
> 2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>****
>
> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:****
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM****
>
> ** **
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave****
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
>   ****
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". ****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) ****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se ** **
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Mar  1 23:47:41 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 23:47:41 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOh-zjuBA6X331dhqGv37_LOQoBnYzhxa9csWTmJhDWCNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.1.MAR.2013.234741.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Go? gat?ego? Arizona nikkashi?ga ama gizhu no?, ebthego?!

Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t desirable.  So if you say:

                uxpathe-akkithe

I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say:

                uxpathe-akkethe

it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?.

I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.


Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it:


1.       losing a thing              (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.)

2.       losing a person          (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)

3.       losing your way         (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I?ll have to ask.)


Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/.

Bryan
2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>>
Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>

Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Mar  2 15:36:18 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:36:18 -0800
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DDC0@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.073618.0800.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =??ohiki and fall down = hiphe
?
Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?
?
?
?


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Fri, 3/1/13, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU> wrote:


From: Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 5:47 PM







Go? gat?ego? Arizona nikkashi?ga ama gizhu no?, ebthego?!
?
Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?? We just discovered it about a year ago.? There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.? Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t desirable.? So if you say:
?
??????????????? uxpathe-akkithe
?
I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say:
?
??????????????? uxpathe-akkethe
?
it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?.
?
I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?? It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.
?
?
Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it:
?
1.?????? losing a thing????????????? (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.)
2.?????? losing a person????????? (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha.? I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)
3.?????? losing your way???????? (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha.? I?ll have to ask.)
?
?
Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.? One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!
?
Rory
?
?

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
?


?
??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!

?

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/.?

?

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>


Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.? The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.
?
Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!
?
Rory
?
?

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu



Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


?

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.

Bryan

?

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>





Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 

?

?

?




Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM


?

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'? 

Dave

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:




?
Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 
? 
I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 
Literally, "no balance". 
lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 
lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 
Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 

?

?


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."





-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




?
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 




?
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 
-------------- next part --------------
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From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Mar  2 15:57:03 2013
From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:57:03 -0800
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362238578.22869.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.075703.0800.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


I find the word allow = kiloxko: then the word for to = nikas and go down = ohita ; thus together nikas:kiloxko:ohita. Ta is a magnifer word which means great or big and so I'm thinking the root word to ohita and ohiki is ohi. So is it possible that ohi is the word for drop?
?
?
?
?

Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Sat, 3/2/13, Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:


From: Scott Collins <saponi360 at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 9:36 AM







I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =??ohiki and fall down = hiphe
?
Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?
?
?
?


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

--- On Fri, 3/1/13, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU> wrote:


From: Rory Larson <rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 5:47 PM







Go? gat?ego? Arizona nikkashi?ga ama gizhu no?, ebthego?!
?
Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?? We just discovered it about a year ago.? There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.? Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t desirable.? So if you say:
? 
??????????????? uxpathe-akkithe 
? 
I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say: 
? 
??????????????? uxpathe-akkethe 
? 
it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?. 
? 
I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?? It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha. 
? 
? 
Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it: 
? 
1.?????? losing a thing????????????? (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.) 
2.?????? losing a person????????? (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha.? I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.) 
3.?????? losing your way???????? (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha.? I?ll have to ask.) 
? 
? 
Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.? One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama! 
? 
Rory 
? 
? 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
? 


?
??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?! 

?

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/.?

?

Bryan

2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>


Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.? The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.
?
Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?! 
? 
Rory 
? 
? 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu



Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


?

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.

Bryan

?

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>





Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 

?

?

?




Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote: 


From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM 


?

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'? 

Dave

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:




?

Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 
? 
I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 
Literally, "no balance". 
lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 
lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 
Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 

?

?


Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."





-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology




?
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 




?
-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 

-------------- next part --------------
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Mar  2 18:25:42 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:25:42 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362238578.22869.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.182542.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


> I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe. Is it possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root word?

Looks like you're right.  Here are the 'fall, lose' terms from my comparative Siouan file.  If you have questions about the two letter abbreviations for the various languages, let me know.

Bob

GLOSS[ fall ?h? 0.0, h?-pe

ProtoDH[ *h??phe

KS[ h??phe ?fall? RR

OS[ ?h?phe ?h?pshe? ?stumble and fall, trip? LF-61b



TU[ ?h?p? ?himp?wa? ?fall down? Hw.

 COM[ There are too few forms here to give us a truly secure reconstruction;  however, the forms that do exist suggest a PSI compound |*hi?-phe|.  QU |hide| ?drop, cause to fall? probably contains the initial root of this form.

 ==========================================================

GLOSS[ fall ?pE x.0 >lie down



GRAMCAT[ V

PSI[ *xap?PCH[ *xap-

CR[ xap? ?lie down, fall? RG

HI[ x?pi ?lie down, recline? J

HI[ xphe, ara- ?kick sth. off of sth.? J

HI[ xphe, na- ?knock down from a high place? (rka) J

HI[ xphe, n?- ?take down? J

HI[ xphe, p?- ?push off, knock down, knock off? J



PMA[ *-xpe-

MA[ wak?pxe?? ?I fell in? C



PMV[ *xpa-



PDA[ *xpA

LA[ xp?ya ?lie down? C

LA[ xpah?? ?thrown down? C

LA[ oxpA? ?drop? C

LA[ xp?, na- ?be kicked off or out.? B-815

LA[ xpa, ok?- ?make fall into by striking? B-383

LA[ xp?xpa, ka- ?strike and make pieces fly off, as from wood

    or ice? B-275

LA[ xp?, wa- ?cut off anything and let it fall? B-519

LA[ xp?, wo- ?make fall by shooting, to shoot down, as a bird

    on the wing? B-598

LA[ xp?, ya- ?pull something with the mouth so as to make it

    come down, as a dog jumping at a piece of beef. to throw anything

    down with? B-620

LA[ xp?, yu- ?pull something, so as to make it fall; to loosen

    the bow string after use; to throw down e.g. one?s load, to shake

    off? B-639

LA[ xpa, yu?ka- ?cover, conceal? B-633

LA[ xpa, ap?- ?throw down on? B-88

DA[ xpa  ?h?pa? ?thrown down? R-166b



CH[ oxw???e ?fall down? JOD



PDH[ *xpare

OP[ ?oxp??e ?uxpathe ?SW-74

KS[ oxp?ye ?fall off? RR

KS[ ob?xpaye ?push off, shove sth. off? RR

KS[ ob?xpaye ?push somebody off (old fused causative?)? RR

KS[ og?xpaye ?knock somebody off of a horse, perch, etc.? RR

KS[ on??xpaye ?kick something off its platform.? RR

KS[ ob?xpaye ?shoot down, shoot and cause to fall? RR

KS[ od?xpaye ?burn down, cause to fall by burning? RR

KS[ oy?xpaye ?fall from the hand, let, to lose.? RR

OS[ ?oxp??e ?uxp?the? ?fall, become lost? LF-181b

QU[ oxp?de ?fall from a height? JOD

QU[ ob?xpade ?push off and cause to fall? RR

QU[ ob?xpade ?fall, cause by pressure/weight? RR

QU[ od?xpade ?pull off and cause to fall? RR

QU[ ok?xpade ?knock off, cause to fall off? RR

QU[ on??xpade ?kick something down? RR

QU[ op?xpade ?shoot down? RR



BI[ xapk? ?flat, low? DS-225 (?)



COM[ HI, LA, CH, and DH show forms with a relic, fused causative which is no longer conjugated as a causative.  MA |w??xpe| ?nine? (one laid/hangs down?) may also belong here, although it is a rather peculiar form, being exceptional with regard to the normal MA constraint against clusters with |p| as second element.


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Mar  2 18:33:06 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:33:06 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <1362239823.91277.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.183306.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> I'm thinking the root word to ohita and ohiki is ohi. So is it possible that ohi is the word for drop?

Yes, I think that's one of the things the cognate sets suggest.

Bob



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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sat Mar  2 18:44:40 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:44:40 -0600
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236942D7@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.2.MAR.2013.124440.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I can add to this that Biloxi seems to have capi 'drop' (e.g., du-capi
'fall by [from] hand') and (h)ide 'fall (of its own accord).'  Also taho
(~toho) 'lie'/'recline' is used at times, such as in oktaho 'make fall by
shooting/shoot down'.  Ofo has atonahi, with that familiar -hi.

Dave

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>
>    > I can't find a word that means drop or to drop in Tutelo-Saponi but
> I do find the word for fallen =  ohiki and fall down = hiphe. Is it
> possible that one of these two words may have the drop aspect in their root
> word?
>
> Looks like you're right.  Here are the 'fall, lose' terms from my
> comparative Siouan file.  If you have questions about the two letter
> abbreviations for the various languages, let me know.
>
> Bob
>
>
> GLOSS[ fall ?h? 0.0, h?-pe
>
> ProtoDH[ *h??phe
>
> KS[ h??phe ?fall? RR
>
> OS[ ?h?phe ?h?pshe? ?stumble and fall, trip? LF-61b
>
>
>
> TU[ ?h?p? ?himp?wa? ?fall down? Hw.
>
>  COM[ There are too few forms here to give us a truly secure
> reconstruction;  however, the forms that do exist suggest a PSI compound
> |*hi?-phe|.  QU |hide| ?drop, cause to fall? probably contains the
> initial root of this form.
>
>  ==========================================================
>
> GLOSS[ fall ?pE x.0 >lie down
>
>
>
> GRAMCAT[ V
> PSI[ *xap?PCH[ *xap-
>
> CR[ xap? ?lie down, fall? RG
>
> HI[ x?pi ?lie down, recline? J
>
> HI[ xphe, ara- ?kick sth. off of sth.? J
>
> HI[ xphe, na- ?knock down from a high place? (rka) J
>
> HI[ xphe, n?- ?take down? J
>
> HI[ xphe, p?- ?push off, knock down, knock off? J
>
>
>
> PMA[ *-xpe-
>
> MA[ wak?pxe?? ?I fell in? C
>
>
>
> PMV[ *xpa-
>
>
>
> PDA[ *xpA
>
> LA[ xp?ya ?lie down? C
>
> LA[ xpah?? ?thrown down? C
>
> LA[ oxpA? ?drop? C
>
> LA[ xp?, na- ?be kicked off or out.? B-815
>
> LA[ xpa, ok?- ?make fall into by striking? B-383
>
> LA[ xp?xpa, ka- ?strike and make pieces fly off, as from wood
>
>     or ice? B-275
>
> LA[ xp?, wa- ?cut off anything and let it fall? B-519
>
> LA[ xp?, wo- ?make fall by shooting, to shoot down, as a bird
>
>     on the wing? B-598
>
> LA[ xp?, ya- ?pull something with the mouth so as to make it
>
>     come down, as a dog jumping at a piece of beef. to throw anything
>
>     down with? B-620
>
> LA[ xp?, yu- ?pull something, so as to make it fall; to loosen
>
>     the bow string after use; to throw down e.g. one?s load, to shake
>
>     off? B-639
>
> LA[ xpa, yu?ka- ?cover, conceal? B-633
>
> LA[ xpa, ap?- ?throw down on? B-88
>
> DA[ xpa  ?h*?*pa? ?thrown down? R-166b
>
>
>
> CH[ oxw???e ?fall down? JOD
>
>
>
> PDH[ *xpare
>
> OP[ ?oxp??e ?uxpathe ?SW-74
>
> KS[ oxp?ye ?fall off? RR
>
> KS[ ob?xpaye ?push off, shove sth. off? RR
>
> KS[ ob?xpaye ?push somebody off (old fused causative?)? RR
>
> KS[ og?xpaye ?knock somebody off of a horse, perch, etc.? RR
>
> KS[ on??xpaye ?kick something off its platform.? RR
>
> KS[ ob?xpaye ?shoot down, shoot and cause to fall? RR
>
> KS[ od?xpaye ?burn down, cause to fall by burning? RR
>
> KS[ oy?xpaye ?fall from the hand, let, to lose.? RR
>
> OS[ ?oxp??e ?uxp?the? ?fall, become lost? LF-181b
>
> QU[ oxp?de ?fall from a height? JOD
>
> QU[ ob?xpade ?push off and cause to fall? RR
>
> QU[ ob?xpade ?fall, cause by pressure/weight? RR
>
> QU[ od?xpade ?pull off and cause to fall? RR
>
> QU[ ok?xpade ?knock off, cause to fall off? RR
>
> QU[ on??xpade ?kick something down? RR
>
> QU[ op?xpade ?shoot down? RR
>
>
>
> BI[ xapk? ?flat, low? DS-225 (?)
>
>
>
> COM[ HI, LA, CH, and DH show forms with a relic, fused causative which is
> no longer conjugated as a causative.  MA |w??xpe| ?nine? (one laid/hangs
> down?) may also belong here, although it is a rather peculiar form, being
> exceptional with regard to the normal MA constraint against clusters with
> |p| as second element.
>
>
>


-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Fri Mar  8 17:52:19 2013
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: relevant articles
Message-ID: <FRI.8.MAR.2013.105219.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two 
articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries 
in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A 
Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".

Congratulations to both authors.

Best,
 	David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri Mar  8 19:05:31 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 13:05:31 -0600
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1303080832110.29109@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.8.MAR.2013.130531.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, David!

Dave

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu>wrote:

> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two
> articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries
> in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A
> Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
>
> Congratulations to both authors.
>
> Best,
>         David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>



-- 
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Mar  9 12:09:33 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 12:09:33 +0000
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjT0sOhuFArkcgF6KxPnOJo3MdCn=fcXCXa8N-KHLiUEyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.MAR.2013.120933.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks David
Bruce
On 8 Mar 2013, at 19:05, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Thanks, David!
> 
> Dave
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu> wrote:
> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has two articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional auxiliaries in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or Coordination? A Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
> 
> Congratulations to both authors.
> 
> Best,
>         David
> 
> 
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology

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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Sat Mar  9 16:15:00 2013
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 10:15:00 -0600
Subject: relevant articles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1303080832110.29109@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.9.MAR.2013.101500.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for this, David.
Mary


On 08/03/2013 11:52 AM, ROOD DAVID S wrote:
> I would like to point out that the new (April 2013) issue of IJAL has 
> two articles about Siouan languages.  David Kaufman's "Positional 
> auxiliaries in Biloxi", and Regina Pustet's "Switch-Reference or 
> Coordination? A Quantitative Approach to Clause Linkage in Lakota".
>
> Congratulations to both authors.
>
> Best,
>     David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Mar 26 07:04:54 2013
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:04:54 -0700
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C84254DDC0@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.000454.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sh?-t?e g?zhu-no?i-t?e ith?paho?-m?zhi, ??thi?i-t?e. O?th?niudo?-?t?sh.

I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that
prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take
that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which
seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

My fate in Panama was nothing compared to the rest of last year - that one
will go down in the history books. But it's over, so don't worry!

Bryan


2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

>  Go? gat?ego? Arizona nikkashi?ga ama gizhu no?, ebthego?!****
>
> ** **
>
> Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it
> about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary,
> and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the
> kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than
> that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t
> desirable.  So if you say:****
>
> ** **
>
>                 uxpathe-akkithe****
>
> ** **
>
> I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say:****
>
> ** **
>
>                 uxpathe-akkethe****
>
> ** **
>
> it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?.****
>
> ** **
>
> I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be
> pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than
> one way to take it:****
>
> ** **
>
> **1.       **losing a thing              (That would be ?uxpare-re? in
> Omaha.)****
>
> **2.       **losing a person          (That might be ?mugro? are? in
> Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)*
> ***
>
> **3.       **losing your way         (I?m not really sure what that is in
> Omaha.  I?ll have to ask.)****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last
> messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!****
>
> ** **
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona
> mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!****
>
> ** **
>
> Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody",
> "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Bryan****
>
> 2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>****
>
> Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it
> appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently
> translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop,
> from a height.****
>
>  ****
>
> Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!****
>
>  ****
>
> Rory****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu****
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost****
>
>  ****
>
> In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and
> for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or
> the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.****
>
> Bryan****
>
>  ****
>
> 2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>****
>
> Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must
> have missed it. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>* wrote:****
>
>
> From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM****
>
>  ****
>
> The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix
> for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the
> causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be
> invisible.'
>
> Dave****
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:****
>
>  ****
>
> Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in
> Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
> What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would
> be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to
> extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a
> word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. ****
>
>   ****
>
> I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". ****
>
> Literally, "no balance". ****
>
> lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) ****
>
> lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se ** **
>
> Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
> Scott P. Collins
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
>
> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle
>
> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?
>
> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."****
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kaufman, Ph.C.
> University of Kansas
> Linguistic Anthropology****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> *********************************************************** ****
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Mar 26 09:15:40 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 04:15:40 -0500
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhH8T9rRDLm+jV_BDfGc=PP_5KmRbYD4mz_7BJmywcv-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.041540.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Rory:
In IOM the use of the word:  uxwa?i,    parallels the Omaha, in reference to:  lost, get lost; drop, fall.
Jimm  

Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?. The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.     Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/. 
Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it:


1. losing a thing (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.)

2. losing a person (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha. I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)

3. losing your way (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha. I?ll have to ask.)


From: Bryan James Gordon 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:04 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

Sh?-t?e g?zhu-no?i-t?e ith?paho?-m?zhi, ??thi?i-t?e. O?th?niudo?-?t?sh. 

I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

My fate in Panama was nothing compared to the rest of last year - that one will go down in the history books. But it's over, so don't worry!

Bryan



2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

  Go? gat?ego? Arizona nikkashi?ga ama gizhu no?, ebthego?!



  Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t desirable.  So if you say:



                  uxpathe-akkithe



  I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say:



                  uxpathe-akkethe



  it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?.



  I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.





  Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it:



  1.       losing a thing              (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.)

  2.       losing a person          (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)

  3.       losing your way         (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I?ll have to ask.)





  Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!



  Rory





  From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM


  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
  Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost




  ??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!



  Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/. 



  Bryan

  2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu>

  Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.



  Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!



  Rory





  From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
  To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu


  Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost



  In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.

  Bryan



  2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com>

        Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it. 









        Scott P. Collins
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

        Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

        ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

        "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."

        --- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:


          From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>
          Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
          To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
          Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM



          The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'  

          Dave

          On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com> wrote:



                Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi. 
               

          What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi. 

            

          I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE". 

          Literally, "no balance". 

          lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path) 

          lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se 

          Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)... 






          Scott P. Collins
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

          Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

          ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

          "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
       




  -- 
  David Kaufman, Ph.C.
  University of Kansas
  Linguistic Anthropology







  -- 
  ***********************************************************
  Bryan James Gordon, MA
  Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
  University of Arizona
  *********************************************************** 







  -- 
  ***********************************************************
  Bryan James Gordon, MA
  Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
  University of Arizona
  *********************************************************** 





-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
*********************************************************** 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Tue Mar 26 19:12:00 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:12:00 +0000
Subject: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhH8T9rRDLm+jV_BDfGc=PP_5KmRbYD4mz_7BJmywcv-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.26.MAR.2013.191200.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The vast majority of verb prefixes with the vowel /e/ appear to be contractions of /a/ + /i/ and are long vowels.  I can't think of any in Kaw or Quapaw that weren't /wee/ < wa- + locative ii-.  Kke- is a new one on me.  Keep us posted.

Bob

> I have not run into that prefix at all. I have noticed that sometimes that prefix sounds lowered, towards /e/, when I hear it spoken, but I just take that as part of the normal vowel space variation for the /i/ vowel, which seems to be lowered more often than not in unstressed positions.

Have you ever run into the kke- affix in Dorsey?  We just discovered it about a year ago.  There was an example or two in the Dorsey dictionary, and the speakers recognized it easily.  Basically, it works just like the kki-, reflexive, affix, but it implies that it happened to you rather than that you did it to yourself, and maybe what happened to you wasn?t desirable.  So if you say:

                uxpathe-akkithe

I think it would mean ?I lost myself (intentionally)?, but if you say:

                uxpathe-akkethe

it would mean ?I got lost (it happened to me)?.

I?m wondering how widespread this affix is in Siouan?  It seems to be pretty rare in the written material even in Omaha.


Also, on the original question of ?lose?/?lost?, there might be more than one way to take it:


1.       losing a thing              (That would be ?uxpare-re? in Omaha.)

2.       losing a person          (That might be ?mugro? are? in Omaha.  I.e., the person took off and disappeared on you, ?went mugro??.)

3.       losing your way         (I?m not really sure what that is in Omaha.  I?ll have to ask.)


Anyway, glad to hear you dropped back into Arizona.  One of your last messages had left me a little worried about your fate in Panama!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:20 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost


??ho?, Panama-tho?di uxp?the-akitha-mazhi ede th?thudi Arizona mo?zho?-tho?di o?w??xpathe mo?bthi? sh??sho?!

Another thing I see a lot in Dorsey is the dative "lost to somebody", "u?xpathe" /uixpa?e/.

Bryan
2013/3/1 Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>>
Looking at the dictionary I?ve been working on with our speakers, it appears that the causative uxpare-re is the only one that presently translates as ?lose?.  The plain uxpare verb mainly means to fall or drop, from a height.

Bryan, Panama ro?di uxparerira-ba?i t?e udo?!

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:56 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>

Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost

In the Dorsey texts for Omaha and Ponca, "uxpathe" /uxpa?e/ is "lost", and for the transitive "lose" there seems to be a choice of using "uxpathe" or the causative "uxpathethe" /uxpa?e-?e/.
Bryan

2013/2/25 Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<mailto:saponi360 at yahoo.com>>
Thank you Dave, I didn't see that one in the Biloxi dictionary. I must have missed it.





Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."
--- On Sat, 2/23/13, David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:

From: David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Words for Loss, Lose and Lost
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 11:21 AM

The Biloxi word for 'lose' is ka-paha-ni-ye: ka- and -ni are the circumfix for negation; paha means something like 'sight' or 'appearance'; -ye is the causative = something like 'cause to not be in sight' or 'cause to be invisible.'

Dave
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Scott Collins <saponi360 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saponi360 at yahoo.com>> wrote:


Hello, I was trying to find the word or words for loss, lose and lost in Tutelo-Saponi.


What would comparative words be in other Dhegiha languages and what would be the literal translation of those words? I'm hoping to be able to extrapolate the word for loss or lost through comparison unless there is a word that is used for loss in Tutelo-Saponi.



I was thinking perhaps "iha:o ki-hiye-nE".

Literally, "no balance".

lE= go, no= yaha or iha:o, and way = hatkox (path)

lE:yaha:hatkox or lE:yahatkox-se

Could these words figure into gone away (lost, lose)...



Scott P. Collins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR

Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle

?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.?

"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."




--
David Kaufman, Ph.C.
University of Kansas
Linguistic Anthropology



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************



--
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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