From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 2 21:35:19 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:35:19 -0400 Subject: Kaw dictionary. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry -- I should have given you this information. Yes, it's the full dictionary as published, minus the shiny, pretty cover. I've spotted a few errors -- there are sure to be more -- and made corrections since publication, and added a lot more examples. I'll put out an errata sheet before I leave in July, and I'll replace the current pdf with an updated one then, too. Keep in mind that this is a practical orthography, so certain aspects of the phonology aren't obvious. Bob Rankin and I are beginning work on a grammar that will use a truly phonemic writing system -- which, needless to say, won't be completed by July, but will get done before to long. If any of you are working in SIL's Language Explorer and run into problems, feel free to write to me at my Kaw Nation address: lcumberland at kawnation.com, in case it's something I grappled with. There are certainly kinks in the program, but in the end, it served us well. Linda Quoting Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha Bob, Linda, et al. > Thanks for the URL. UdoN shkaxai, ebthegoN. > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Rankin, Robert L. > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:08 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Re. Kaw dictionary. > > Thanks to George and Anthony, both of whom are smarter than I am, for > locating the dictionary file. The operative URL is: > http://www.kawnation.com/WebKanza/LangResources/nglshknzdctnry2012.pdf > Somehow I managed to miss it. So did Google when I typed in the > exact title. I guess they need to get caught up a bit. > > This is indeed a version of the new dictionary. As far as I can tell > it's the same as the print version. The online version is a .PDF > file. When you see the really nice cover, you're gonna want the > published version though. > > So, . . . Enjoy!! > > Bob > From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 2 21:44:27 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:44:27 -0400 Subject: Kaw Language Director postion Message-ID: Hello, All, I tried to post this earlier and it hasn't come through yet, so I'll try again. I hope one or more of you will be interested in this. Contact me if you have questions as lcumberland at kawnation.com or call me at (580) 269-1199. Linda Kaw Language Director: Location: Kaw City, OK The Kaw Nation is seeking a Language Director with a minimum qualification of a bachelor’s degree in Linguistics, Native American Studies, Anthropology, Education, and/or the Humanities or a directly related field of study, and administrative experience including appropriate computer skills in a Windows environment. Candidates who possess knowledge of one or more Siouan languages (especially Dhegiha: Kaw, Osage, Omaha, Ponca, and Quapaw) will have preference. Must be able to set priorities, organize, coordinate work efficiently, and to establish good personal relations with other workers and the public. Must be able to pass a background check and drug test, as well as possess and maintain a valid driver’s license and be insurable. Applications available at www.kawnation.com. Resumes without an Application and Disclosure Agreement, and questionnaire for child care adjudication will not be considered. Submit applications with/without resumes to PO Box 50, Kaw City, OK 74641 or fax to (580) 269-2536. Applications accepted until position filled. For additional information contact: Kaw Nation Human Resource Department (580) 269-2552. EEO & Drug free work place employer Indian Preference considered with verification of Indian Heritage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Sat May 11 14:54:46 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 10:54:46 -0400 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat May 11 16:15:06 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 17:15:06 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One joke deserves another. This one was told me by Jerome Kills Small of Vermillion. An old Lakota man went into a shop with his grandson. When he got in he felt tired and said to his son "Khul maƞkiƞ kte" meaning "i'm going to sit down". So the grandson did the shopping and when he had paid, the shop keeper, who was white and didn't understand Lakota, said to the boy "and tell your grandfather next time not to call me a 'cool monkey.' This is the only Lakota joke I know. Any more offerings? Bruce On 11 May 2013, at 15:54, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Sat May 11 16:37:08 2013 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 09:37:08 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <6CBA1898-808F-4523-8EA7-0E1EE6C3A91A@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: There is the old one where the little Lakota boy asks the priest during catechism why Good Friday is on a Friday, because he always thought that Monday was Was'te. On May 11, 2013, at 9:15 AM, bruce Ingham wrote: > One joke deserves another. This one was told me by Jerome Kills Small of Vermillion. > > An old Lakota man went into a shop with his grandson. When he got in he felt tired and said to his son "Khul maƞkiƞ kte" meaning "i'm going to sit down". So the grandson did the shopping and when he had paid, the shop keeper, who was white and didn't understand Lakota, said to the boy "and tell your grandfather next time not to call me a 'cool monkey.' > > This is the only Lakota joke I know. Any more offerings? > > Bruce > > On 11 May 2013, at 15:54, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: >> >> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: >> >> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." >> >> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. >> >> Be well, >> Saul > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Sat May 11 23:59:43 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 18:59:43 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the Chiwere chuckle, Saul! On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the > American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon > Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from > Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork > with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the > table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I > read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they > say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are > pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to > say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ > glelábliⁿ." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and > source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come > across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, > I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sun May 12 04:59:47 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 04:59:47 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sun May 12 14:49:32 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 09:49:32 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Jill! Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun May 12 20:59:56 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:59:56 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sun May 12 21:22:22 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 22:22:22 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Hear hear, Bob! Who doesn't love a dictionary? Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 05/12/13 10:03 PM >>> > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon May 13 00:24:39 2013 From: chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Wallace Chafe) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 17:24:39 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C2C08@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ > glelábliⁿ." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a > string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I > could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for > 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or > unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are > now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, > Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank > is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This > is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too > painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a > prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of > you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into > the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to > students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and > experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience > is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native > people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who > deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is > not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor > using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work > will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to > do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was > already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to > Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few > years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been > 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has > only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of > years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. > I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar > project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the > writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for /you/. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Mon May 13 01:29:59 2013 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 19:29:59 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C2C08@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. 😄 Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 03:11:40 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 03:11:40 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, thanks John. That sounds right to me. I stand corrected on the clusters. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID John Koontz wrote: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. 😄 Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Mon May 13 15:27:44 2013 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 11:27:44 -0400 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From Lowie The Crow Indians p 104: "Verbal cleverness is common among the Crow and they play with words as such. There are "tongue-twisters" like our "She sells sea-shells by the seashore,"--phrases to be rattled off at top-speed without confusion of the proper sounds. Perhaps the best-known is: basakapupe'cdec akapupapa'patdetk, "My people who went to the Nez Perce are not wearing Nez Perce belts." I'm looking for contemporary examples, but no luck yet. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L. To: SIOUAN Sent: Sun, May 12, 2013 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Hey, thanks John. That sounds right to me. I stand corrected on the clusters. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID John Koontz wrote: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience,always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra workwill be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was alreadya couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, Ipromised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finishedthe dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensablehelp of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please donot follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late foryou. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Mon May 13 15:40:32 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 15:40:32 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <519032C7.5040702@linguistics.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Greetings, Wally. Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Looking forward to the Caddo dictionary and texts. Best wishes to all. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wallace Chafe [chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Mon May 13 16:20:18 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 16:20:18 +0000 Subject: Writing two books Message-ID: I wholeheartedly agree with Jim and Bob. There is also a problem with writing two books, however. We linguists know how to write reference grammars, but (with rare exceptions, you know who you are!) we are simply are not trained to write good pedagogical materials for learners. Nevertheless, we are being asked to in effect duplicate the Boasian trilogy (more a Haasian one in my opinion.) Mary Haas' mantra was "grammars, texts, and dictionaries", but now we linguists are being asked to write "grammars, texts, and dictionaries, AND pedagogical grammars, textbooks, and pedagogical dictionaries". Beginning documentary linguists are confused when they are being asked to to do all this, and when they are told this is the ethical thing to do, both for the scientific community and for the indigenous learners. It cannot be done; it is simply too much work. Either we compromise and do a bit of both, at the risk of compromising scientific and/or pedagogical standards, or we have to collaborate with other scholars, who are qualified to write "pedagogical grammars, textbooks, and pedagogical dictionaries". Obviously, more collaboration is needed to get all this work done. Collaboration will imply better reciprocal understanding of what the goals are, so we will need more linguists (indigenous or not) who understand what the best pedagogical tools are, and we will need more language learning experts (indigenous or not), who understand what scientific documentation is. ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 3:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Mon May 13 17:12:13 2013 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:12:13 -0700 Subject: Hymns in the Omaha Language. In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0E18@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: > Hello: I have just noticed that the rather scarce 1887 William Hamilton book "Hymns in the Omaha Language" was added about two weeks ago to the free scanned books available on archive.org at https://archive.org/details/hymnsinomahalang00hami There is also a seller offering PDF versions sent electronically to you at ABEbooks.com for about 10 bucks. I hope this might be of interest to some. I am also curious about anyone's opinion or background with this work, all religious aspects aside. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Mon May 13 18:38:59 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 13:38:59 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Dear All, The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, lodging, transportation, dinner, etc … which several people have asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you can still register on the "registration" link at http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, …) you can do so by using the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email and password you used/created during your initial registration. If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner reservation. *Very Important Note on Lodging: As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. *Important Notes on Transportations: Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance so we can plan. The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. *Abstracts: I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon May 13 19:09:35 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 14:09:35 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Boyle, John wrote: > Dear All, > > > The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: > 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We > are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the > schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for > the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; > it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. > > There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, > lodging, transportation, dinner, etc … which several people have asked > about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all > these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally > discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some > more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. > > *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: > If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you > can still register on the "registration" link at > http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. > > If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some > options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, …) you can do so by using > the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply > go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom > right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing > Registration". You can then login with the email and password you > used/created during your initial registration. > > If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of > June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the > registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you > can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way > we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner > reservation. > > > *Very Important Note on Lodging: > As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the > Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went > through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which > nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of > the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to > actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino > Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else > is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at > this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for > the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. > > *Important Notes on Transportations: > Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the > lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on > the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. > From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't > speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If > you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the > Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. > Please let us know in advance so we can plan. > > The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is > approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be > a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back > from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. > > > *Abstracts: > I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and > abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of > you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward > to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline > as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the > conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, > John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can > send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. > > > Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 19:21:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:21:03 +0000 Subject: Writing two books In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0E18@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: > There is also a problem with writing two books, however. We linguists know how to write reference grammars, but (with rare exceptions, you know who you are!) we are simply are not trained to write good pedagogical materials for learners. When I recommend writing two grammars I would intend the layman's grammar to be something that a pedagogical professional could benefit from when composing teaching materials, not necessarily a grammar that the students themselves could use to teach themselves the language. I have too much experience with college students who never learned the difference between a noun and a verb to expect that just anyone could handle any sort of language grammar. Someone trained in "language arts" or "early childhood education", etc. should know what a past participle is or what a subjunctive is. I liken founding a language program to constructing a large building. It takes an architect (the linguist), a civil engineer (the educationist), plus plumbers, electricians and construction workers (the classroom teachers, assistants and native speakers). You can imagine what happens if the architect tries to construct the walls or the supports or what happens if the stone mason or carpenter tries to create the blueprints. So Willem is right, BUT I don't think the linguist is responsible for every detail of classroom instruction. That requires an intermediary who is a specialist but not necessarily a linguist. And it's that person who needs to be able to understand that second book the linguist produces. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 19:33:45 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:33:45 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. Message-ID: > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Mon May 13 19:34:09 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:34:09 -1000 Subject: Hymns in the Omaha Language. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can save a pdf for free from archive.org. The scan is really clear. Thank you for sharing this resource! Respectfully, Ardis On May 13, 2013, at 7:12 AM, Erik Hanson wrote: >> Hello: > > I have just noticed that the rather scarce 1887 William Hamilton book "Hymns in the Omaha Language" was added about two weeks ago to the free scanned books available on archive.org at > https://archive.org/details/hymnsinomahalang00hami > > There is also a seller offering PDF versions sent electronically to you at ABEbooks.com for about 10 bucks. > I hope this might be of interest to some. I am also curious about anyone's opinion or background with this work, all religious aspects aside. >> Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Mon May 13 19:46:09 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 12:46:09 -0700 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C35DA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. > > Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. > > Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. > > Bob > > P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 20:06:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 20:06:10 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <586B21EC-4E0E-4592-9AB5-BCB68BB713FE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks for looking that up, Dave! I'd have had to hobble to the University library as Algonquian materials are not part of my personal library. I used to quote that passage to my Field Methods classes, and it always got a good laugh when I got to the celibacy part. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Mon May 13 21:21:17 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 16:21:17 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John: I know I registered but never received a receipt. I expected one by USPS or Email. Can you confirm that it has been received? I will call the Hotel to confirm there. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:38 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear All, The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, lodging, transportation, dinner, etc … which several people have asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you can still register on the "registration" link at http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, …) you can do so by using the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email and password you used/created during your initial registration. If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner reservation. *Very Important Note on Lodging: As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. *Important Notes on Transportations: Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance so we can plan. The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. *Abstracts: I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon May 13 21:44:54 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 22:44:54 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Message-ID: It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 05/13/13 9:08 PM >>> Thanks for looking that up, Dave! I'd have had to hobble to the University library as Algonquian materials are not part of my personal library. I used to quote that passage to my Field Methods classes, and it always got a good laugh when I got to the celibacy part. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon May 13 21:52:34 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 22:52:34 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it is a beautiful language. Anthony >>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ > glelábliⁿ." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a > string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I > could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for > 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or > unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are > now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, > Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank > is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This > is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too > painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a > prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of > you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into > the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to > students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and > experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience > is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native > people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who > deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is > not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor > using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work > will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to > do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was > already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to > Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few > years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been > 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has > only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of > years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. > I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar > project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the > writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for /you/. > > Bob Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon May 13 22:44:48 2013 From: chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 15:44:48 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <51916EB2020000A60008EDF1@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Anthony, Da Cruz gave me his tapes in the 60's before he left for Beirut. I don't know what happened to him after that. They were digitized a long time ago. A few years ago I had a couple students make a separate sound file of each word, thinking I might plug those recordings into dictionary entries. I don't see his recordings on the web, which came as a surprise. Do you know where they are and who put them there? I also have useful cassettes of Caddo language classes made by Phil Newkumet. And of course I still have my own recordings which haven't been fully exploited yet. I've heard that there might be one or two speakers still alive, but I've been too occupied with other things to make the necessary trips to Oklahoma. Hence the guilt. Wally On 5/13/2013 2:52 PM, Anthony Grant wrote: > Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be > appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even > some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really > good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with > whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in > better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it > is a beautiful language. > > Anthony > >>>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> > I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to > say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of > Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different > audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them > separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be > advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they > can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and > texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The > very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone > nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder > and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the > Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than > I've given it. > > Wally > > On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ >> glelábliⁿ." >> >> Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a >> string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I >> could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for >> 'whirlwind'. >> >> Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or >> unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are >> now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, >> Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank >> is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This >> is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too >> painfully obvious. >> >> And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a >> prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of >> you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into >> the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to >> students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and >> experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience >> is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native >> people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who >> deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is >> not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor >> using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work >> will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to >> do with Kaw. >> >> When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was >> already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to >> Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few >> years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been >> 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has >> only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of >> years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. >> I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar >> project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the >> writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for > /you/. >> Bob > > Edge Hill University > Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 > www.edgehill.ac.uk > > > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated > companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also > the content of email for the purposes of security and business > communications during staff absence. From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 11:04:19 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 12:04:19 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <51916CE0.9040500@linguistics.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Hi Wally: They're in the California Language Archive. I came across them one day simply by putting 'Sadie Bedoka Weller' into Google. I don't know who put them there but there are almost 4.5 hours there in 30 files, including some stuff that didn't appear in DaCruz's paper, such as a short prayer. Eva Guy Luther, whom I've never heard of, is listed as another consultant. Best Anthony >>> Wallace Chafe 13/05/2013 23:44 >>> Hi Anthony, Da Cruz gave me his tapes in the 60's before he left for Beirut. I don't know what happened to him after that. They were digitized a long time ago. A few years ago I had a couple students make a separate sound file of each word, thinking I might plug those recordings into dictionary entries. I don't see his recordings on the web, which came as a surprise. Do you know where they are and who put them there? I also have useful cassettes of Caddo language classes made by Phil Newkumet. And of course I still have my own recordings which haven't been fully exploited yet. I've heard that there might be one or two speakers still alive, but I've been too occupied with other things to make the necessary trips to Oklahoma. Hence the guilt. Wally On 5/13/2013 2:52 PM, Anthony Grant wrote: > Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be > appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even > some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really > good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with > whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in > better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it > is a beautiful language. > > Anthony > >>>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> > I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to > say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of > Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different > audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them > separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be > advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they > can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and > texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The > very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone > nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder > and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the > Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than > I've given it. > > Wally > > On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ >> glelábliⁿ." >> >> Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a >> string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I >> could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for >> 'whirlwind'. >> >> Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or >> unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are >> now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, >> Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank >> is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This >> is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too >> painfully obvious. >> >> And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a >> prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of >> you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into >> the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to >> students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and >> experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience >> is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native >> people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who >> deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is >> not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor >> using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work >> will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to >> do with Kaw. >> >> When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was >> already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to >> Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few >> years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been >> 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has >> only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of >> years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. >> I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar >> project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the >> writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for > /you/. >> Bob > > Edge Hill University > Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 > www.edgehill.ac.uk > > > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated > companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also > the content of email for the purposes of security and business > communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 13:28:59 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:28:59 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C35DA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: You are right, Bob and all, I did not look up what good ole Leonard actually said. I did remember the celibate part, from when you quoted it in our class! My point was, for us (noncelibates), one or two languages is plenty. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 13:59:08 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:59:08 +0000 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 14:32:45 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:32:45 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <51916CE6020000A60008EDED@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 16:05:50 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 17:05:50 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0F1F@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 19:03:53 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 19:03:53 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <51926EEE.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks Anthony. That is good to know. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:05 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue May 14 19:17:17 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 19:17:17 +0000 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0EF0@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Hello, Dear Colleagues, Actually, I am going to have to withdraw my paper, and miss the Jiwere-fest from John's wonderful students also. Like Willem, I'll be in D.C. with the Otoe-Missouria group for the Breath of Life Workshop, which is very exciting. I only wish the times weren't overlapping!!! I know you all will have a wonderful conference, but it is the prospect of being on Sitting Bull's home and at a college honoring him that is even more difficult to miss. I hope that you would all consider sharing your papers on the list after the conference? Hopefully there is a way to get a refund on the registration, or pay it forward to a student who hasn't yet paid, whichever is best for the organizers... Next year back in Missouri or Oklahoma, perhaps? Vaya con Dios, y'all! Jill Jill D. Greer Associate Professor Social Science Department 230 Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of De Reuse, Willem [WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU Tue May 14 19:42:32 2013 From: Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU (Mirzayan, Armik) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:42:32 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <5165E9840200008E00084EAD@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- From Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU Tue May 14 19:48:09 2013 From: Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU (Mirzayan, Armik) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <2E8C78A825FCF84D9B27960E9F4E9107A345E9C8D0@USD-EXMB01.usd.local> Message-ID: Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. best, Armik ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 19:49:52 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 20:49:52 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0F63@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: BTW, Willem, a big plug for your book on descriptive fieldwork to you and Shobhana C! My doctoral student thinks it's marvellous. So do I. Anthony >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 20:03 >>> Thanks Anthony. That is good to know. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:05 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue May 14 19:59:47 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:59:47 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Message-ID: Yeah, it's way too easy to do. I'm replying to all on purpose for once, as others may be interested in the answer to this question: Do you know an approximate start and end time for the conference? i.e. would it make sense to be there on the 12th to be ready for an early morning start on Thursday the 13th, or will it kick off the evening of the 13th and go all day Fri-Sat or what? Thanks, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 05/14/13 2:51 PM >>> Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. best, Armik ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 20:01:59 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 20:01:59 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <5192A370.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thank you, Anthony. You made my day. Very much appreciated. It was a big book, and it took us a long time to write, and my wife (first author Shobhana Chelliah) and I are still married after writing this together! Best Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt BTW, Willem, a big plug for your book on descriptive fieldwork to you and Shobhana C! My doctoral student thinks it's marvellous. So do I. Anthony From mary.marino at USASK.CA Tue May 14 20:40:22 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:40:22 -0600 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Armik I'm sorry to say that I will not be able to attend the Siouan Conference this year - I hope to see you all next year. Best Mary On 13/05/2013 12:38 PM, Boyle, John wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: >> 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North >> Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the >> planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have >> already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for >> your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun >> conference again. >> >> There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, >> lodging, transportation, dinner, etc … which several people have >> asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally >> respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. >> I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. >> So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you >> find this helpful. >> >> *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: >> If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do >> so, you can still register on the "registration" link at >> http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. >> >> If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some >> options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, …) you can do so by >> using the login that you created during your initial registration >> process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and >> then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or >> Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email >> and password you used/created during your initial registration. >> >> If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening >> of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in >> the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add >> that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this >> option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to >> expect for this dinner reservation. >> >> >> *Very Important Note on Lodging: >> As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at >> the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When >> you went through the registration process the system allowed you to >> indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process >> only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the >> rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now >> call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve >> room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you >> have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you >> call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and >> Caddoan Languages Conference" event. >> >> *Important Notes on Transportations: >> Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport >> to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The >> airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 >> miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to >> drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on >> google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need >> a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to >> arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance >> so we can plan. >> >> The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is >> approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There >> will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the >> College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool >> back and forth. >> >> >> *Abstracts: >> I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and >> abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one >> of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking >> forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the >> abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the >> last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper >> and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look >> at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or >> Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu >> . Please try to keep your abstracts to >> a maximum of one page. >> >> >> Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. >> >> Best wishes, >> Armik >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor >> Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy >> The University of South Dakota >> 414 E. Clark St. >> Vermillion SD 57069 >> Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu >> Phone: 605-677-3159 >> ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue May 14 21:27:53 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:27:53 -0700 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hiya John and all, I finally got my teaching responsibilities for the summer sorted out, and it looks like I'm gonna miss the conference AGAIN! This is driving me crazy. If it were the 15th and 16th I could come, but I have to teach on the 13th and 14th. Please have extra fun on my behalf! Bryan 2013/5/13 Boyle, John > Dear All, > > > The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: > 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We > are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the > schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for > the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; > it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. > > There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, > lodging, transportation, dinner, etc … which several people have asked > about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all > these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally > discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some > more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. > > *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: > If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you > can still register on the "registration" link at > http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. > > If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some > options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, …) you can do so by using > the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply > go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom > right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing > Registration". You can then login with the email and password you > used/created during your initial registration. > > If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of > June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the > registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you > can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way > we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner > reservation. > > > *Very Important Note on Lodging: > As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the > Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went > through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which > nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of > the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to > actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino > Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else > is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at > this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for > the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. > > *Important Notes on Transportations: > Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the > lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on > the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. > From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't > speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If > you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the > Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. > Please let us know in advance so we can plan. > > The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is > approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be > a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back > from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. > > > *Abstracts: > I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and > abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of > you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward > to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline > as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the > conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, > John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can > send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. > > > Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed May 15 02:06:19 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 21:06:19 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill: When you get back from DC, please share the experience. I’m surprised Sky had not shared with me, then again, perhaps he is not in on this one. He’s a busy fellow, assisting many different activities in RR. jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Hello, Dear Colleagues, Actually, I am going to have to withdraw my paper, and miss the Jiwere-fest from John's wonderful students also. Like Willem, I'll be in D.C. with the Otoe-Missouria group for the Breath of Life Workshop, which is very exciting. I only wish the times weren't overlapping!!! I know you all will have a wonderful conference, but it is the prospect of being on Sitting Bull's home and at a college honoring him that is even more difficult to miss. I hope that you would all consider sharing your papers on the list after the conference? Hopefully there is a way to get a refund on the registration, or pay it forward to a student who hasn't yet paid, whichever is best for the organizers... Next year back in Missouri or Oklahoma, perhaps? Vaya con Dios, y'all! Jill Jill D. Greer Associate Professor Social Science Department 230 Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of De Reuse, Willem [WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Wed May 15 09:37:27 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 23:37:27 -1000 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <2E8C78A825FCF84D9B27960E9F4E9107A345E9C8D2@USD-EXMB01.usd.local> Message-ID: Ha Armik, I think it's a frustration everyone can understand (re: USD). What is the closest airport for the conference? I don't think I can come but on the off chance... Pidamayaye, Ardis On May 14, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Mirzayan, Armik wrote: > Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. > > best, > Armik > > ________________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > Hi Catherine, > I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. > > I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. > > If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. > > I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... > > best, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > ________________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > Hi, Armik. > Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. > > I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. > > It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? > > We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. > > I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. > > Best, > Catherine > >>>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> > Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, > > We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! > > If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 > (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. > > Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. > > And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu May 16 18:59:36 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 18:59:36 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 16 19:21:49 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:21:49 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my current delays. But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous time in DC. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri May 17 22:17:22 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:17:22 -0600 Subject: Elan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill, Elan is indeed the video (and audio) documentation program that was written for the DoBeS projects tha Iren and I worked on. It is constantly being updated with new features, and I'm not swift enough to make use of many of them. It is very easy to use once you are familiar with it, but as you said, starting a new software program is never easy. I don't find their user manuals very helpful, but the people on the development team in Nijmegen are very quick and thorough with the answers to questions (at least for me; I assume that holds for people they don't know, too). Iren is good with it, and I know either she or I would be happy to answer questions if we can. One very important thing before you get started very far: plan carefully what you want your tier structure to look like, because it's hard (for me) to change afterwards. Read the manual pages about this four or five times, then go away for a few days and read it again. There are several different ways to "link" tiers into groups so they can be moved and added and deleted together. Once you get done, however, the search and print functions are wonderful. Best, ] David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 16 May 2013, Greer, Jill wrote: > I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. > > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > Yes, Jill! > Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. > > Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda > Jimm > > From: Greer, Jill > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat May 18 00:00:08 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 00:00:08 +0000 Subject: Elan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, David! I'm sure it will take me longer than most - I'm a bit of a Luddite at best. It's nice to have you and Iren (and all the MP folks) handy for advice. Maybe I need to wait until after the trip to DC to get too engrossed in learning new software. I'm supposed to be making a bibliography and getting things ready for the workshop, although I'm still not exactly sure what that will entail. I really did listen to your talk last year, but other than thinking it was a great tool and enjoying the Wichita folks speaking to us, the specifics are gone now. I was hoping to do some captioned video clips of patriotic and NAC songs for language learners / tribespeople ideally, and eventually work on transcribing some partially begun work. But first it's time to make some verb paradigms and other technical stuff for the grammar sketch, which may get some adjustments after the NEIU papers come in. Texts are just so much more fun... And by the way, thanks to you and Bob especially for all the continuous devotion to Siouan and Caddoan work. I don't know what other small groups of Americanists are like, but I can't imagine anyone else being more supportive and cooperative than you all have always been. I guess I'll be meeting some members of a few other sets in D.C. shortly! Jill ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [david.rood at COLORADO.EDU] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 10:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Elan Jill, Elan is indeed the video (and audio) documentation program that was written for the DoBeS projects tha Iren and I worked on. It is constantly being updated with new features, and I'm not swift enough to make use of many of them. It is very easy to use once you are familiar with it, but as you said, starting a new software program is never easy. I don't find their user manuals very helpful, but the people on the development team in Nijmegen are very quick and thorough with the answers to questions (at least for me; I assume that holds for people they don't know, too). Iren is good with it, and I know either she or I would be happy to answer questions if we can. One very important thing before you get started very far: plan carefully what you want your tier structure to look like, because it's hard (for me) to change afterwards. Read the manual pages about this four or five times, then go away for a few days and read it again. There are several different ways to "link" tiers into groups so they can be moved and added and deleted together. Once you get done, however, the search and print functions are wonderful. Best, ] David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 16 May 2013, Greer, Jill wrote: > I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. > > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > Yes, Jill! > Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their c! hildren. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. > > Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda > Jimm > > From: Greer, Jill > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: > > kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 23 18:26:52 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 13:26:52 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and “Thursday” is meant to be “Wednesday.” If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH – 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 – 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Thu May 23 17:44:48 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 12:44:48 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 33rd SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 121948 bytes Desc: 33rd SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 23 19:34:48 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 14:34:48 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank You for that correction. Now to see if Fr. Yates Casino Hotel will be so kind as to adjust the dates accorinding. From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Jimm, Thanks for pointing out the error. There is always something. Attached is the correct schedule with the correct dates. The conference is Thursday June 13 – Saturday June 15. My apologies for the error. All the best, John From: Jimm GoodTracks Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:26 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and “Thursday” is meant to be “Wednesday.” If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH – 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 – 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Thu May 23 18:54:50 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 13:54:50 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: <12AB06885E5B4959967072A56291C51A@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Hi Jimm, Thanks for pointing out the error. There is always something. Attached is the correct schedule with the correct dates. The conference is Thursday June 13 – Saturday June 15. My apologies for the error. All the best, John From: Jimm GoodTracks > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:26 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" > Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and “Thursday” is meant to be “Wednesday.” If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH – 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 – 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: corrected SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 122155 bytes Desc: corrected SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 25 03:52:39 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 20:52:39 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Message-ID: Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat May 25 16:50:14 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 11:50:14 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369453959.87942.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Scott, I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to be a literal translation of the English. Rather, I think the more natural Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent I-love'. Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am I sure about the definite article prefix i-. (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) Is chiko:yo 'sweet'? (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi ckuye.) If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo 'sw eetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.' That would then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I love.' I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or correct my analyses.... Dave On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > Verb at end of sentence****** > > Adjectives follow nouns**** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun)**** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb)**** > > The = i- (definite article)**** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition)**** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat May 25 18:12:27 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 18:12:27 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Small observation about 'separate as in Lakota kin'. Lakota kin is an enclitic, i.e. phonologically part of the preceding word, but we write this enclitic separately by convention, just like other enclitics such as plural pi are written together with preceding word by convention. (I know there is probably no good cross-linguistic definition of cliticization, but in Lakota the difference between clitic things an nonclitic things is fairly clear; I am not even saying that once a clitic, always a clitic; there are cases where plural pi is stressed, and therefore not a clitic, same thing might be true of some kin...) Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 25 19:07:19 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is the entry from William Meuse's dictionary on the two words I have used for the origin word.   "*Aqekon, to be so. (Dors.: Kaqekonbina.) Uncertain; only recorded in neg. desiderative mode. Cf. Qekego, manifest. Ima kaqekonbina, he doesn’t want to be so. Alt. sp.: Axekon, Xexon [O, R, ST]." ---Meuse, Yesanechi, pg. 6.   Since "of" and "from" are origin words I have been using "qekego".   sweet = chiko:yo grass = oto:   So it should be oto: chiko:yo for sweetgrass?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 11:50 AM Scott, I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to be a literal translation of the English.  Rather, I think the more natural Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent I-love'.  Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am I sure about the definite article prefix i-.  (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) Is chiko:yo 'sweet'?  (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi ckuye.)  If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo 'sweetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.'  That would then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I love.' I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or correct my analyses.... Dave On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins wrote: Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat May 25 19:30:41 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 14:30:41 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369508839.21745.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So, the Biloxi words for 'sweet potato' and 'sugar' are probably good illustrations: ado wax-ckuuye, lit. 'potato sugar' = sweet potato wax-ckuuye, lit. 'salt sweet' = sugar That word waxckuuye arises from the combination waasi ckuuye, lit. 'salt sweet' = sugar. The ending -s(i) becomes -x in Biloxi. So note that, in each case above, the adjective modifying potato or salt comes after the noun being modified, the same setup as your word oto:chiko:yo lit. 'grass-sweet' or sweetgrass. I guess it's up to you whether you want to write those combined into one word or separate words - I don't know any hard and fast rules about this in Siouan, and, as you can see, Biloxi uses both methods. Dave On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > Here is the entry from William Meuse's dictionary on the two words I have > used for the origin word. > > "**Aqekon*, to be so. > > (Dors.: *Kaqekonbina*.) Uncertain; only recorded in neg. desiderative > mode. Cf. > > Qekego > , manifest. *Ima kaqekonbina*, he doesn’t want to be so. > Alt. sp.: > *Axekon, Xexon *[O, R, ST]." ---Meuse, Yesanechi, pg. 6. > > Since "of" and "from" are origin words I have been using "qekego". > > sweet = chiko:yo > grass = oto: > > So it should be oto: chiko:yo for sweetgrass? > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, David Kaufman * wrote: > > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 11:50 AM > > Scott, > > I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is > that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to > be a literal translation of the English. Rather, I think the more natural > Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, > would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent > I-love'. Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about > qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am > I sure about the definite article prefix i-. (In Biloxi and some other > Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the > noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) > > Is chiko:yo 'sweet'? (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi > ckuye.) If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo > 'sweetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.' That would > then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I > love.' > > I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or > correct my analyses.... > > Dave > > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins > > wrote: > > Verb at end of sentence****** > > Adjectives follow nouns**** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun)**** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb)**** > > The = i- (definite article)**** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition)**** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat May 25 20:07:39 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 20:07:39 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369453959.87942.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 01:06:46 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 18:06:46 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Message-ID: Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM #yiv1334158451 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.  I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun May 26 14:00:46 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 15:00:46 +0100 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: <12AB06885E5B4959967072A56291C51A@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Have a good time everyone Bruce On 23 May 2013, at 19:26, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Dear John: > > The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. > > Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and “Thursday” is meant to be “Wednesday.” If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. > > Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. > Jimm > > From: Boyle, John > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule > > Hi Everyone, > > Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. > > All the best, > > John > > THE 33RD > SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE > SITTING BULL COLLEGE > FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA > JUNE 12TH – 14TH 2013 > > THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 > > 1:00 – 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita > morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 20:16:55 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:16:55 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369530406.63704.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 21:19:46 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:19:46 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: "Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?"   Here is what Oliverio has going from Tutelo-Saponi to English: "mukta:ki      grass" "N" "muktagi (H1883a) see also sokta:ki , ot: 'grass' " ----pg. 246   "oto:      green, leaf, grass" "N, V" "otoi 'leaf' (H1878); otoi 'leaf' (H1879); otoi, otoq (N) 'leaf'; otoi 'grass'; oto (N) 'green' (H1883a)" "Ofo: ithohi 'green, blue' " "Biloxi: tohi, tohi 'green' " "Dakota: tho 'green' " "see also mukta:ki, sokta:ki 'grass' " ---pg. 263   "sokta-ki          grass" "N" "sunktagi (H1878); sunktago (H1879); sunktaki (N) (H1883a)" "see also mukta:ki, oto:  'grass' " ---pg. 273         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 21:28:23 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 21:28:23 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369603186.81204.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good. That confirms that they all do mean ‘grass’. The oto: word seems generic enough to refer to perhaps any green vegetation as well as the color, but the other two just refer straight back to ‘grass’, so I would suggest using one of them. I wonder what the difference is though? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:20 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?" Here is what Oliverio has going from Tutelo-Saponi to English: "mukta:ki grass" "N" "muktagi (H1883a) see also sokta:ki , ot: 'grass' " ----pg. 246 "oto: green, leaf, grass" "N, V" "otoi 'leaf' (H1878); otoi 'leaf' (H1879); otoi, otoq (N) 'leaf'; otoi 'grass'; oto (N) 'green' (H1883a)" "Ofo: ithohi 'green, blue' " "Biloxi: tohi, tohi 'green' " "Dakota: tho 'green' " "see also mukta:ki, sokta:ki 'grass' " ---pg. 263 "sokta-ki grass" "N" "sunktagi (H1878); sunktago (H1879); sunktaki (N) (H1883a)" "see also mukta:ki, oto: 'grass' " ---pg. 273 Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 21:32:27 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:32:27 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: "pi:     good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio   "-pi    desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' "   "pi:kha       good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)"    "pi        smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio           Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun May 26 22:56:25 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 22:56:25 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369530406.63704.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not trying simply to contradict everything that others say about Tutelo, and I'm sure Giulia made some mistakes in her analysis just like we all do. Meuse apparently wanted to "simplify" Giulia's and other linguists' presentation. That is laudable, but he went about it in a naive fashion. The most accurate way to standardize all the different sources of Tutelo vocabulary is to follow the principles Oliverio used. Sure, you can substitute "ch" for "c" with the wedge over it and "an" for nasal "a" with the rightward hook beneath, but to just reproduce all the confusing 19th century spellings only makes things worse. If you want to learn Greek, the first thing you do is learn the Greek alphabet. Same for Russian, Japanese or Cherokee, etc. And if a person wants to learn Tutelo, the place to start is with Oliverio's phonemic spellings, not all the variable usages from the 1880s. Giulia's grammatical discussions are indeed written for professional linguists, but her dictionary is much more accessible. > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”.---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.The word "the" is a definite article correct? Notice among your words for 'grass' the number of times a term ends in "-gi" or "-ki". These are two spellings for earlier "-ki" and should be standardized as such. This matches the definite article in several Dakotan languages and in Sapir's Tutelo. That is your best bet for an article, and it will always follow the noun it modifies. The word "oto:" could only mean 'grass' in the sense of 'greenery'. It does not literally mean 'grass', just 'something green' (or blue!). > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka They're both right, Meuse just doesn't know how to standardize the pronunciation. It's clear that in Tutelo it simply didn't matter whether you said "p" or "b", "t" or "d", "k" or "g". The voiceless pronunciation, as "p, t, k" was older and more conservative. The real distinction in Tutelo was whether "p, t, k" had an "h" sound after them or not. > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 Right. But in translating it into Tutelo, note that 'sweetgrass' is not the same as 'sweet grass', even in English, and certainly not in Dakota, the same as 'blackbird' is not the same as 'black bird'. Not every black bird is a blackbird. Not every sweet grass is sweetgrass. > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Gilmore's ethnobotany or the one by my colleague, Kelly Kindscher, are good sources, but neither one really covers the eastern Piedmont. I'm sure you are more expert in Tutelo cultural matters than I am. > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " Right. And notice the suffix. > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language I understand what you're trying to do, and somewhere there's a "happy medium" between direct and cultural translation. >. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. I hear you. It's a real challenge. > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. I'm sure. The notion "definite article" is very different in nearly every language, even closely related ones. There's a story of a Polish linguist who gave a professional lecture at the Univ. of Pennsylvania entitled "English language requires use of definite article", in which he didn't get a single one right. > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Yep. Oliverio needs to be "translated" from Linguistics into instructional English. There is no way to write a single grammar that will inform linguists and speakers/learners equally. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun May 26 23:53:02 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 18:53:02 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott,**** > > ** ** > > Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the > “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying > words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about > the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We > should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English > or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s > logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we > classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive > to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on > its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal > grammatical classifications.**** > > ** ** > > In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the > simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything > about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it > should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:**** > > ** ** > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European > languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first > clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both > “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, > insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when > you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The > smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is > something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” > is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a > particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not > need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may > shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:**** > > ** ** > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for > “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that > matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our > logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable > enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of > handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes > the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English > too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of > sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the > two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation:**** > > ** ** > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by > simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the > “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it > describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:* > *** > > ** ** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just > need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would > be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the > I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be > something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” > Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations > tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to > me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just > what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from > loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan > languages likely do.**** > > ** ** > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might > call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a > dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” > word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a > command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as > a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. > Compare:**** > > ** ** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m > just telling you about myself and what I like.)**** > > ** ** > > **I** love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, > unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)**** > > ** ** > > If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the > second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how > to say “I love it” about an odor.**** > > ** ** > > At this point, we have:**** > > ** ** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].**** > > ** ** > > where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, > not a separate word by itself.**** > > ** ** > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations.**** > > ** ** > > It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki**** > > mukta:ki**** > > oto:**** > > ** ** > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see > what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine > the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.**** > > ** ** > > Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have > been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation > when we say “greenery”?**** > > ** ** > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they > actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, > “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?**** > > ** ** > > Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as > sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:** > ** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ?**** > > ** ** > > Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell > of sweetgrass’.**** > > ** ** > > The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a > transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but > it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi > dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem > to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are > verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of > odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m > wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we > might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a > transitive verb, then**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].**** > > ** ** > > might mean**** > > ** ** > > “I love to smell sweetgrass.”**** > > ** ** > > rather than**** > > ** ** > > “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”**** > > ** ** > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the > end-user.**** > > ** ** > > Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as**** > > ** ** > > yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s > heart”**** > > ** ** > > Biloxi has a comparable word:**** > > ** ** > > ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good > to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”**** > > ** ** > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or > possessive marker “ki”:**** > > ** ** > > ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied”**** > > ** ** > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:*** > * > > ** ** > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.**** > > ** ** > > I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo > doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-)**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you > will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on > Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your > persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand > that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of > their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover > it. Good luck in all your work!**** > > ** ** > > All the best,**** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > ** ** > > Here is what Meuse had for -i :**** > > > * * > > *"-i*, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, > the”. Also *-y*. **** > > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and > follow the **** > > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals > can **** > > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real > distinction between **** > > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is > purely **** > > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable > of the **** > > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally > indicated by **** > > final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a > ‘broken’ dipthong **** > > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. > This **** > > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken > dipthong’; **** > > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." > ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.**** > > **** > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.**** > > **** > > The word "the" is a definite article correct?**** > > **** > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE**** > > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka**** > > **** > > **** > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: > http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328**** > > **** > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that > the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it > at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called > sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at > what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done > in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to > read it.**** > > **** > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"**** > > **** > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " **** > > **** > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word > for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a > good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely > not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to > try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me > sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual > dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were > unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's > dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word > formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this > list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, > for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to > utilize the language. **** > > **** > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see > Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.**** > > **** > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on > Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as > well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive > interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't > tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > **** > > **** > > **** > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help > has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able > to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and > truly Siouan as a living language. **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. * wrote:**** > > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM**** > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English > word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the > smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m > not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that > preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan > language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. > And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound > of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. **** > > **** > > I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as > though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for > letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, > included all earlier research and includes context with examples. **** > > **** > > I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos > had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term > for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and > Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are > more widespread. **** > > **** > > The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it > probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to > do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. **** > > ** ** > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where > that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it > appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches > the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in > Tutelo.**** > > **** > > Bob **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott > Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > Verb at end of sentence **** > > Adjectives follow nouns **** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. **** > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun) **** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) **** > > The = i- (definite article) **** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition) **** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) **** > > > > My final conjugation: **** > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) **** > > **** > > Is this all correct?**** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."**** > > ** ** > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 23:53:30 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 23:53:30 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369603947.59813.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 00:04:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:04:58 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE93E@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 00:43:47 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:43:47 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. John, can I access Oliverio in the Archive somehow? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 7:05 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson > wrote: Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 00:59:35 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:59:35 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:15:26 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:15:26 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <6ecfepovsc2utn88asu824w5.1369616381804@email.android.com> Message-ID: Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary by Oliverio You can order the Oliverio Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary at www.proquest.com or by calling 1-800-521-0600 or 734-761-4700 The UMI number is #9811327 "A Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" by Giulia R.M. Oliverio (1996) http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf This is a paper Oliverio did on "Tutelo Nouns". You may have to fill out a request form for the PDF file.       Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 7:59 PM Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great.  It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi.  The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation.   Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi?  I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller.  Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it?   Thanks, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   "pi:     good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio   "-pi    desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' "   "pi:kha       good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)"    "pi        smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio           Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:27:58 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:27:58 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi  win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ?             Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.  It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).  The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'  This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.  Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).  It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.  According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.  The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.  (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.  Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."   -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:31:06 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:31:06 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625278.76096.YahooMailClassic@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group?         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi  win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ?             Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.  It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).  The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'  This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.  Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).  It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.  According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.  The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.  (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.  Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."   -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:44:59 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:44:59 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625466.79404.YahooMailClassic@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also another question regarding "pi".   Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio   and   "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio     It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:31 PM Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group?         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi  win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ?             Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.  It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).  The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'  This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.  Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).  It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.  According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.  The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.  (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.  Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott,   Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”.  We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English.  We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.  I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.   In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.  I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:                   [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   In English, we are required to use “the” a lot.  In some other European languages, it might be required even more.  In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article.  But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.  “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”.  “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.  (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)  So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:                   [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].   As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language.  They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too.  In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”.  That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way.  Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”.  This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.  Siouan would use the second formulation:                   [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].   As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes.  Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].   Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”.  For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”.  For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.  You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.  In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.”  Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”.  They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.  Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.  We don’t make the distinction in English.  Siouan languages likely do.   Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”.  This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is.  In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.  In Siouan, this is not necessary.  We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.  Compare:                   I love the smell of sweetgrass.                   (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)                   *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.             (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)   If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.  So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.   At this point, we have:                   [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].   where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.   Now we just have to plug in the right translations.   It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:                   sokta:ki                 mukta:ki                 oto:   Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?  Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.   Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’.  Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?   Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?  Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?  If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?   Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’  ?   Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.   The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.  We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.  Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.  (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)  The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”?  If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble.  Or not.  Siouan can be flexible.  If it is a transitive verb, then                   sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].   might mean                   “I love to smell sweetgrass.”   rather than                   “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”   Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.   Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as                   yaⁿt-o-steke       = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”   Biloxi has a comparable word:                   ki-yaⁿdi-pi            = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”   This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:                   ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi          = “I am satisfied”   So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:                   Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.   I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.  I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!  :-)     Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.  Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.  It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.  Good luck in all your work!   All the best, Rory     From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi   Here is what Meuse had for -i :   "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.   Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.   The word "the" is a definite article correct?   Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka     Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328   However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.   Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"   Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass  mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "    I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.  Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.     The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.   My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.       Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.  The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.  I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’.  And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.    I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.  It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.    I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south.  The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage.  I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.    The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’.  In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself..  So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.    I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.  In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.   Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb   I love the smell of sweetgrass.   I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego  chiko:yo oto:  mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.)     Is this all correct?     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."   -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 16:34:37 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 16:34:37 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625466.79404.YahooMailClassic@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It’s fine with me, if Bob and Dave have no problem. And thanks for the Tutelo links! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:31 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins > wrote: From: Scott Collins > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman > wrote: From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon May 27 16:57:41 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 11:57:41 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEA7F@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: No problem here. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Rory Larson wrote: > It’s fine with me, if Bob and Dave have no problem. And thanks for the > Tutelo links!**** > > ** ** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:31 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > ** ** > > Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi > Facebook group?**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins * wrote:**** > > > From: Scott Collins > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM**** > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is **** > > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ?**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman * wrote:**** > > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM**** > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I > think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks > like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N > representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be > used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think > about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be > appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would > look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun > dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out > as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi > aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or > possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = > causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, > so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate > with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article > 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= > English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the > Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with > Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite > article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo > yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last > would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave **** > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > > wrote:**** > > Hi Scott,**** > > **** > > Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the > “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying > words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about > the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We > should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English > or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s > logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we > classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive > to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on > its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal > grammatical classifications.**** > > **** > > In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the > simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything > about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it > should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: **** > > **** > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. **** > > **** > > In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European > languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first > clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both > “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, > insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when > you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The > smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is > something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” > is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a > particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not > need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may > shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: **** > > **** > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. **** > > **** > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for > “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that > matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our > logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable > enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of > handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes > the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English > too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of > sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the > two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: **** > > **** > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. **** > > **** > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by > simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the > “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it > describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: > **** > > **** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. **** > > **** > > Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just > need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would > be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the > I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be > something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” > Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations > tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to > me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just > what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from > loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan > languages likely do. **** > > **** > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might > call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a > dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” > word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a > command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as > a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. > Compare: **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m > just telling you about myself and what I like.) **** > > **** > > **I** love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, > unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) **** > > **** > > If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the > second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how > to say “I love it” about an odor. **** > > **** > > At this point, we have: **** > > **** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. **** > > **** > > where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, > not a separate word by itself. **** > > **** > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. **** > > **** > > It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: **** > > **** > > sokta:ki **** > > mukta:ki **** > > oto: **** > > **** > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see > what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine > the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. **** > > **** > > Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have > been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation > when we say “greenery”? **** > > **** > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they > actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, > “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? **** > > **** > > Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as > sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: * > *** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? **** > > **** > > Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: **** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell > of sweetgrass’. **** > > **** > > The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a > transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but > it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi > dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem > to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are > verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of > odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m > wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we > might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a > transitive verb, then **** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. **** > > **** > > might mean **** > > **** > > “I love to smell sweetgrass.” **** > > **** > > rather than **** > > **** > > “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” **** > > **** > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the > end-user. **** > > **** > > Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as **** > > **** > > yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s > heart” **** > > **** > > Biloxi has a comparable word: **** > > **** > > ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good > to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” **** > > **** > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or > possessive marker “ki”: **** > > **** > > ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” **** > > **** > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: ** > ** > > **** > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. **** > > **** > > I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo > doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) **** > > **** > > **** > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you > will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on > Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your > persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand > that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of > their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover > it. Good luck in all your work! **** > > **** > > All the best, **** > > Rory **** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > **** > > > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > **** > > Here is what Meuse had for -i :**** > > > * ***** > > *"-i*, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, > the”. Also *-y*. **** > > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and > follow the **** > > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals > can **** > > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real > distinction between **** > > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is > purely **** > > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable > of the **** > > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally > indicated by **** > > final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ > dipthong **** > > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. > This **** > > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken > dipthong’; **** > > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." > ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.**** > > **** > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.**** > > **** > > The word "the" is a definite article correct?**** > > **** > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE**** > > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka**** > > **** > > **** > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: > http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328**** > > **** > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that > the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it > at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called > sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at > what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done > in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to > read it.**** > > **** > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"**** > > **** > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " **** > > **** > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word > for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a > good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely > not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to > try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me > sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual > dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were > unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's > dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word > formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this > list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, > for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to > utilize the language. **** > > **** > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see > Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.**** > > **** > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on > Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as > well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive > interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't > tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > **** > > **** > > **** > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help > has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able > to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and > truly Siouan as a living language. **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > >* wrote:**** > > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM **** > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English > word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the > smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m > not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that > preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan > language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. > And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound > of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. **** > > **** > > I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as > though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for > letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, > included all earlier research and includes context with examples. **** > > **** > > I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos > had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term > for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and > Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are > more widespread. **** > > **** > > The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it > probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to > do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. **** > > **** > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where > that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it > appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches > the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in > Tutelo.**** > > **** > > Bob **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM > ] > *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > Verb at end of sentence **** > > Adjectives follow nouns **** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. **** > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun) **** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) **** > > The = i- (definite article) **** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition) **** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) **** > > > > My final conjugation: **** > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) **** > > **** > > Is this all correct?**** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."**** > > **** > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology**** > > ** ** > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 18:24:50 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 18:24:50 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369626299.37266.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ø It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Desiderative would imply that the thing is desired. I’m also very interested in this particle, and in how it is used. I assume the basic idea is that when you put “pi” after a verb, it means that someone wants the verb to be done, though not necessarily something they want to do themself. In Biloxi, there is a particle “hi” that is used in several different ways, including ones that might be considered desiderative. I think Dave describes it as a sort of “weak” future, used for future events that aren’t set in stone. It might be used where someone intends to do something, or is thinking about doing something. It is also used for whatever someone is telling someone else to do. In some cases, it might be translated as “should” or “ought”. Some examples of its uses: The Rabbit and the brier patch (Dorsey texts, 1:17): Asóⁿ ayíⁿsihí-xti kó, asóⁿ íⁿnoⁿdá hi na. Briers you=fear-greatly since, briers I=throw=you INTENTION MALE_EMPHATIC. Considering that you greatly fear the briers, I think I'll throw you into the briers, yeah! Telling someone to do something (8:19): Úa hí ki-é-di koⁿní-yaⁿ-kaⁿ. Cook=it should to=her-said-he mother-that=one-then. He told his mother to cook it. Indirect command (29:4): Aⁿxtí naⁿké-di yákida hí, é-dí ná. Iyáⁿsi-xtí, é-dí ná. Woman sitting=over=there you=go=home should, says-she EMPH. You=smell-greatly, says-she EMPH. That woman sitting over yonder says you should go home. She says you stink! Subjunctive or unfocussed command, as in “Let it be so!” (8:9): Kiówo utohó hí. Another lie=down=in=it let. Let another lie down in it. Should, ought, supposed to (8:22): ⁿdúx-ni hí yuhí. I=eat=it-not ought she=thought. I am not to eat it, she thought. I’m wondering if this sort of functionality is what Oliverio has in mind when she describes Tutelo “pi” as “desiderative”. I’d really like to see some Tutelo text, with examples of desiderative “pi” in context. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:45 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Also another question regarding "pi". Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio and "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:06:08 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:06:08 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi exchanges on social media. Message-ID: Giulia was my student at K.U. and I supervised her dissertation. Maybe I can facilitate everybody getting these files. We need to get all her papers in .pdf form and simply distribute them to you folks who are working trying to resuscitate Tutelo. You shouldn't have to pay for them. As for putting our conversations here on-line for the community, I don't have anything against the idea. I've been frank with my opinion of some of the attempts to bring the language to the community and I would prefer not to get into a "pissing contest" with Mr. Meuse, so maybe you can edit my comments and tone them down a bit. Unquestionably, his heart is in the right place. But a spelling system for all known Tutelo vocabulary needs to be devised and standardized. Giulia Oliverio tried to do just that. Her phonemicization is basically very accurate. She did the best job she could "reconstituting" the most conservative form of each word based on (a) the many variant spellings and, (b) her (and my) knowledge of the same words in related Siouan languages, given that sound changes between languages are basically regular. Beyond that, it's up to you folks to agree on the regularized way of writing the standard sounds of Tutelo for learning purposes. You just start with Giulia's basic entry for each Tutelo word and substitute whatever letter you choose for each speech sound (phoneme). As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker. If you're going to post this on the social media, permit me to repeat here something I wrote with regard to another Siouan List item a week or two ago. I think it definitely says something about the problem of the various sources, spellings and pronunciations of Tutelo and the interpretation of linguists' treatments for non-linguists. "When I recommend writing two grammars I would intend the layman's grammar to be something that a pedagogical professional could benefit from when composing teaching materials, not necessarily a grammar that the students themselves could use to teach themselves the language. I have too much experience with college students who never learned the difference between a noun and a verb to expect that just anyone could handle any sort of language grammar. Someone trained in "language arts" or "early childhood education", etc. should know what a past participle is or what a subjunctive is. I liken founding a language program to constructing a large building. It takes an architect (the linguist), a civil engineer (the educationist), plus plumbers, electricians and construction workers (the classroom teachers, assistants and native speakers). You can imagine what happens if the architect tries to construct the walls or the supports or what happens if the stone mason or carpenter tries to create the blueprints. So Willem is right, BUT I don't think the linguist is responsible for every detail of classroom instruction. That requires an intermediary who is a specialist but not necessarily a linguist. And it's that person who needs to be able to understand that second book the linguist produces." I don't know Mr. Meuse's educational background, but I suspect he might be a good person to interpret Oliverio for students. He has an on-line list of vocabulary from Tutelo and several other Siouan languages that he apparently put together at M.I.T.'s modern languages department. If so, he must be a pretty smart guy, and perhaps with a little help from all of us he'll be a help with unified learning materials. At the moment, we simply don't know who the fellow is. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary by Oliverio You can order the Oliverio Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary at www.proquest.com or by calling 1-800-521-0600 or 734-761-4700 The UMI number is #9811327 "A Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" by Giulia R.M. Oliverio (1996) http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf This is a paper Oliverio did on "Tutelo Nouns". You may have to fill out a request form for the PDF file. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 7:59 PM Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:10:09 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625278.76096.YahooMailClassic@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:54:46 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:54:46 +0000 Subject: Various "pi" terms. Message-ID: This email needs to be viewed as an HTML file so the raised symbols will display correctly. > Also another question regarding "pi". > Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio I think, after thinking about it, that "pi" meaning 'good' should have the aspirated "ph" Desiderative mode should have the unaspirated "p". In other words, they sound different. > "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " > "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" I think it should be "phikha" in Oliverio's spelling. "phikha" in my spelling here. > "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It looks to me as though 'smell' has a nasal vowel and is therefore different in pronunciation from the other two entries, above. It would be "pin". It turns out to be instructive to look at 'smell' is some of the other Siouan languages. I think it turns out that whoever translated "pin" as 'emit an odor' was closest to the same word in related languages. The word actually means 'to fart': CROW pía ~ pípia ‘fart’, HIDATSA pí(h) ~ pía ‘fart’,MANDAN píh ‘break wind’, WINNEBAGO wį́į ‘break wind’, and finally TUTELO lakapįʔį ‘smell, emit an odor’ from the Dorsey slip file. There you have it. All three of our 'pi' words were pronounced differently, but the 'smell' word is the intransitive verb 'to smell', as in 'to stink', so it is probably not the term you want to use for 'a smell'. So in summary, we have: phi 'to be good' pi 'desiderative mode' pin 'to smell, give off an odor' (probably really meant 'fart', but those fellows a century ago were too polite to say so.) Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:59:32 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:59:32 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBE93@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Looking at this again after reviewing the three "pi" words, I'd say that "pi" here would be the 'good' term. There would be no actual word for 'smell' in the sentence. It would read "sweetgrass causes my heart to feel good." Something very close to that. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet” after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”, which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.) If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean? Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ? Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’. The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean “I love to smell sweetgrass.” rather than “I love the smell of sweetgrass.” Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart” Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)” This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”: ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied” So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke. I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for “of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’. I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 20:28:42 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 13:28:42 -0700 Subject: Various "pi" terms. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBEEF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm glad you cleared that up on the various "pi" usages and meanings. I definitely wouldn't want to go around saying I love the farts of sweetgrass.     On my request to cross post, thank you for agreeing to it. My intent is only to progress the understanding of Tutelo-Saponi and find everyones input her valuable in that regard. I did have some contact with Meuse for a short time, but I'm not in contact with him at present nor is he involved with the Tutelo-Saponi Language page on Facebook as yet. I do have Lawrence Dunmore on the page and hopefully he will interact in the discussions there. I think I could get Meuse involved though at some piont. The more people that are woking on it, and can get together to bang out all the details, the closer we'll get to standardization.   One of the things there is disagreement on is the spelling system. Some think that the small letter next to the regular letters is too confusing while others feel that double and triple lettering is confusing. Lawrence uses the double and triple lettering method which I tend to find more complicated than the linguist version with the apsirations and dipthongs and such. I'm leaning towards phonetic spellings with the usage of semicolons and dashes like Oliverio. However is easiest for laypersons to learn it. I'm sure there will not be easy answers and I'm sure we will all have to bend and comprimise in order to reach agreement on the best approaches.          Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Various "pi" terms. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 2:54 PM #yiv491479619 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} This email needs to be viewed as an HTML file so the raised symbols will display correctly. > Also another question regarding "pi".   > Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio I think, after thinking about it, that "pi" meaning 'good' should have the aspirated "ph"  Desiderative mode should have the unaspirated "p". In other words, they sound different.   > "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " > "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" I think it should be "phikha" in Oliverio's spelling.  "phikha" in my spelling here. > "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It looks to me as though 'smell' has a nasal vowel and is therefore different in pronunciation from the other two entries, above. It would be "pin".   It turns out to be instructive to look at 'smell' is some of the other Siouan languages.  I think it turns out that whoever translated "pin" as 'emit an odor' was closest to the same word in related languages.  The word actually means 'to fart': CROW pía ~ pípia ‘fart’, HIDATSA pí(h) ~ pía ‘fart’,MANDAN píh ‘break wind’,  WINNEBAGO wį́į ‘break wind’, and finally TUTELO  lakapįʔį ‘smell, emit an odor’ from the Dorsey slip file.  There you have it.  All three of our 'pi' words were pronounced differently, but the 'smell' word is the intransitive verb 'to smell', as in 'to stink', so it is probably not the term you want to use for 'a smell'.  So in summary, we have: phi 'to be good' pi  'desiderative mode' pin 'to smell, give off an odor' (probably really meant 'fart', but those fellows a century ago were too polite to say so.) Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 20:30:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:30:08 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBF1A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Ø As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker. Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ʰt-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. tʰ-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? Thanks, Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Tue May 28 03:02:33 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:02:33 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEB4D@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID:   Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi?         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM Ø  As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same.  For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also.  That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago.  For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker.  Question here.  How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS?  I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ʰt-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. tʰ-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw.  Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern?   Thanks, Rory     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue May 28 03:25:28 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 22:25:28 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369710153.20655.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oliverio (p. 269) has pi:lahuk, as one word. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > > Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson * wrote: > > > From: Rory Larson > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM > > > Ø As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For > example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost > certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written > phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the > unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers > from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost > certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the > speaker. > > Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in > Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. > post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? I had > understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ʰt-) had shifted > forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. tʰ-) in Dakotan, had stayed > the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and > Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and > Southeastern? > > > > Thanks, > > Rory > > > > > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Tue May 28 03:57:56 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:57:56 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pi:lahuk for clearifying that.     Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 10:25 PM Oliverio (p. 269) has pi:lahuk, as one word. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Scott Collins wrote:   Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi?         Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM Ø  As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same.  For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also.  That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago.  For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker.  Question here.  How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS?  I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ʰt-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. tʰ-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw.  Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern?   Thanks, Rory     -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue May 28 22:02:40 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:02:40 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEB4D@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: > Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? It is indeed established on the basis of cognates and synchronic alternations in MVS. You end up having to reconstruct C, hC and Ch sets. > I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ʰt-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. tʰ-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? Proto-Siouan, yes, but we simply don't have good enough transcriptions to be sure of OVS. I've shown in a paper that Biloxi definitely had at least two series. Ofo had post-aspirates fide Swanton's transcription. Of all the linguists and amateurs who transcribed Tutelo no one was perceptive enough to transcribe aspiration until Edward Sapir wrote down a page or so worth of words and a couple of sentences in the early 20th century. He transcribed both vowel length and aspiration right off the bat, but his sample is very small. Aspiration followed certain voiceless stops. We can infer its presence further from the fact that some p's, t's and k's are always written voiceless, by every transcriber, while others vary with b, d, and g. We assume these latter were unaspirated. OVS aspiration insofar as we understand it at all, seems to have a slightly different distribution than in MVS. It seems to be linked to accent syncronically more than in MVS, where the link was broken early. This tends to be confirmed by Sapir for Tutelo, who transcribed 'hot' as kathe rather than the expected khate. This could have simply been a mistake, of course. There are a scattering of hC transcriptions in Hale and perhaps one or two others, but they remain mysterious. It's a great pity that we didn't realize there were still at least three fluent Tutelo speakers on Six Nations into the 1970s. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue May 28 23:32:42 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:32:42 +0000 Subject: Various "pi" terms. In-Reply-To: <1369686522.66788.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > One of the things there is disagreement on is the spelling system. Some think that the small letter next to the regular letters is too confusing while others feel that double and triple lettering is confusing. Lawrence uses the double and triple lettering method which I tend to find more complicated than the linguist version with the apsirations and dipthongs and such. I'm leaning towards phonetic spellings with the usage of semicolons and dashes like Oliverio. However is easiest for laypersons to learn it. I'm sure there will not be easy answers and I'm sure we will all have to bend and comprimise in order to reach agreement on the best approaches. I hope you don't get into the situation Dakotanists find themselves in. There are comprehensive writing systems numbering well into the teens and little agreement. Schools and even individual teachers preach their own systems. And it's not even that any particular one of them is bad. For the most part they all work. It's just that there is so little in the way of a standard. I understand the folks who find ph, th, kh etc.or an, in, un a bit confusing, but I can't really sympathize with them. As I said before, if you want to learn, say, Russian you simply learn the Russian alphabet. You don't whine about it and say it's "confusing". Trust me, it's the easiest part of the language and you learn it the very first day of class. A handful of new symbols shouldn't deter people who want to learn Tutelo. It's simply the case that there are a few sounds in Tutelo that aren't in English. If that confuses people, they aren't studying hard enough. That said, you're not tied to any particular symbol set. The guttural sound that linguists write with x can be spelled with "x" or "q" or "hh" "ĥ", "ħ" or & and so forth. Same for nasal vowels. For nasal "a" you can use "ã", or "ą", or "an", or "aŋ" or anything else. The main thing is to be consistent. And I guess it would be a good idea to use Oliverio's system IF everybody is going to use her work as a reference. Likewise it would be best to use Meuse if folks want to use him as their source. You get the idea. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 2 21:35:19 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:35:19 -0400 Subject: Kaw dictionary. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry -- I should have given you this information. Yes, it's the full dictionary as published, minus the shiny, pretty cover. I've spotted a few errors -- there are sure to be more -- and made corrections since publication, and added a lot more examples. I'll put out an errata sheet before I leave in July, and I'll replace the current pdf with an updated one then, too. Keep in mind that this is a practical orthography, so certain aspects of the phonology aren't obvious. Bob Rankin and I are beginning work on a grammar that will use a truly phonemic writing system -- which, needless to say, won't be completed by July, but will get done before to long. If any of you are working in SIL's Language Explorer and run into problems, feel free to write to me at my Kaw Nation address: lcumberland at kawnation.com, in case it's something I grappled with. There are certainly kinks in the program, but in the end, it served us well. Linda Quoting Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha Bob, Linda, et al. > Thanks for the URL. UdoN shkaxai, ebthegoN. > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Rankin, Robert L. > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:08 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Re. Kaw dictionary. > > Thanks to George and Anthony, both of whom are smarter than I am, for > locating the dictionary file. The operative URL is: > http://www.kawnation.com/WebKanza/LangResources/nglshknzdctnry2012.pdf > Somehow I managed to miss it. So did Google when I typed in the > exact title. I guess they need to get caught up a bit. > > This is indeed a version of the new dictionary. As far as I can tell > it's the same as the print version. The online version is a .PDF > file. When you see the really nice cover, you're gonna want the > published version though. > > So, . . . Enjoy!! > > Bob > From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 2 21:44:27 2013 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:44:27 -0400 Subject: Kaw Language Director postion Message-ID: Hello, All, I tried to post this earlier and it hasn't come through yet, so I'll try again. I hope one or more of you will be interested in this. Contact me if you have questions as lcumberland at kawnation.com or call me at (580) 269-1199. Linda Kaw Language Director: Location: Kaw City, OK The Kaw Nation is seeking a Language Director with a minimum qualification of a bachelor?s degree in Linguistics, Native American Studies, Anthropology, Education, and/or the Humanities or a directly related field of study, and administrative experience including appropriate computer skills in a Windows environment. Candidates who possess knowledge of one or more Siouan languages (especially Dhegiha: Kaw, Osage, Omaha, Ponca, and Quapaw) will have preference. Must be able to set priorities, organize, coordinate work efficiently, and to establish good personal relations with other workers and the public. Must be able to pass a background check and drug test, as well as possess and maintain a valid driver?s license and be insurable. Applications available at www.kawnation.com. Resumes without an Application and Disclosure Agreement, and questionnaire for child care adjudication will not be considered. Submit applications with/without resumes to PO Box 50, Kaw City, OK 74641 or fax to (580) 269-2536. Applications accepted until position filled. For additional information contact: Kaw Nation Human Resource Department (580) 269-2552. EEO & Drug free work place employer Indian Preference considered with verification of Indian Heritage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Sat May 11 14:54:46 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 10:54:46 -0400 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat May 11 16:15:06 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 17:15:06 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One joke deserves another. This one was told me by Jerome Kills Small of Vermillion. An old Lakota man went into a shop with his grandson. When he got in he felt tired and said to his son "Khul ma?ki? kte" meaning "i'm going to sit down". So the grandson did the shopping and when he had paid, the shop keeper, who was white and didn't understand Lakota, said to the boy "and tell your grandfather next time not to call me a 'cool monkey.' This is the only Lakota joke I know. Any more offerings? Bruce On 11 May 2013, at 15:54, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Sat May 11 16:37:08 2013 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 09:37:08 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <6CBA1898-808F-4523-8EA7-0E1EE6C3A91A@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: There is the old one where the little Lakota boy asks the priest during catechism why Good Friday is on a Friday, because he always thought that Monday was Was'te. On May 11, 2013, at 9:15 AM, bruce Ingham wrote: > One joke deserves another. This one was told me by Jerome Kills Small of Vermillion. > > An old Lakota man went into a shop with his grandson. When he got in he felt tired and said to his son "Khul ma?ki? kte" meaning "i'm going to sit down". So the grandson did the shopping and when he had paid, the shop keeper, who was white and didn't understand Lakota, said to the boy "and tell your grandfather next time not to call me a 'cool monkey.' > > This is the only Lakota joke I know. Any more offerings? > > Bruce > > On 11 May 2013, at 15:54, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: >> >> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: >> >> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." >> >> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. >> >> Be well, >> Saul > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Sat May 11 23:59:43 2013 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 18:59:43 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the Chiwere chuckle, Saul! On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the > American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon > Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from > Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork > with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the > table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I > read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they > say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are > pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to > say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? > glel?bli?." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and > source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come > across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, > I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sun May 12 04:59:47 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 04:59:47 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sun May 12 14:49:32 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 09:49:32 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Jill! Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me gigr?nje taho. Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun May 12 20:59:56 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:59:56 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Sun May 12 21:22:22 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 22:22:22 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Hear hear, Bob! Who doesn't love a dictionary? Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 05/12/13 10:03 PM >>> > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon May 13 00:24:39 2013 From: chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Wallace Chafe) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 17:24:39 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C2C08@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? > glel?bli?." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a > string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I > could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for > 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or > unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are > now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, > Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank > is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This > is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too > painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a > prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of > you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into > the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to > students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and > experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience > is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native > people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who > deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is > not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor > using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work > will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to > do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was > already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to > Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few > years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been > 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has > only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of > years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. > I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar > project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the > writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for /you/. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Mon May 13 01:29:59 2013 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 19:29:59 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C2C08@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. ? Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. > > Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 03:11:40 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 03:11:40 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, thanks John. That sounds right to me. I stand corrected on the clusters. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID John Koontz wrote: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. ? Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Mon May 13 15:27:44 2013 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (rgraczyk at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 11:27:44 -0400 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From Lowie The Crow Indians p 104: "Verbal cleverness is common among the Crow and they play with words as such. There are "tongue-twisters" like our "She sells sea-shells by the seashore,"--phrases to be rattled off at top-speed without confusion of the proper sounds. Perhaps the best-known is: basakapupe'cdec akapupapa'patdetk, "My people who went to the Nez Perce are not wearing Nez Perce belts." I'm looking for contemporary examples, but no luck yet. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Rankin, Robert L. To: SIOUAN Sent: Sun, May 12, 2013 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Hey, thanks John. That sounds right to me. I stand corrected on the clusters. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID John Koontz wrote: Wamni'omni Yuhomni ??? Not sure if the exact form. Rendered Charging Whirlwind. That's not quite literal if I remember it right. I thought of it too. Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience,always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra workwill be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was alreadya couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, Ipromised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finishedthe dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensablehelp of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please donot follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late foryou. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Mon May 13 15:40:32 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 15:40:32 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <519032C7.5040702@linguistics.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Greetings, Wally. Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Looking forward to the Caddo dictionary and texts. Best wishes to all. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Wallace Chafe [chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:24 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for 'whirlwind'. Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Mon May 13 16:20:18 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 16:20:18 +0000 Subject: Writing two books Message-ID: I wholeheartedly agree with Jim and Bob. There is also a problem with writing two books, however. We linguists know how to write reference grammars, but (with rare exceptions, you know who you are!) we are simply are not trained to write good pedagogical materials for learners. Nevertheless, we are being asked to in effect duplicate the Boasian trilogy (more a Haasian one in my opinion.) Mary Haas' mantra was "grammars, texts, and dictionaries", but now we linguists are being asked to write "grammars, texts, and dictionaries, AND pedagogical grammars, textbooks, and pedagogical dictionaries". Beginning documentary linguists are confused when they are being asked to to do all this, and when they are told this is the ethical thing to do, both for the scientific community and for the indigenous learners. It cannot be done; it is simply too much work. Either we compromise and do a bit of both, at the risk of compromising scientific and/or pedagogical standards, or we have to collaborate with other scholars, who are qualified to write "pedagogical grammars, textbooks, and pedagogical dictionaries". Obviously, more collaboration is needed to get all this work done. Collaboration will imply better reciprocal understanding of what the goals are, so we will need more linguists (indigenous or not) who understand what the best pedagogical tools are, and we will need more language learning experts (indigenous or not), who understand what scientific documentation is. ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 3:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too painfully obvious. And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and experience, always fall between two stools, and neither audience is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to do with Kaw. When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to Kaw in '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar project, so please do not follow in my footsteps and postpone the writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for you. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikandingrid at COX.NET Mon May 13 17:12:13 2013 From: erikandingrid at COX.NET (Erik Hanson) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:12:13 -0700 Subject: Hymns in the Omaha Language. In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0E18@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: > Hello: I have just noticed that the rather scarce 1887 William Hamilton book "Hymns in the Omaha Language" was added about two weeks ago to the free scanned books available on archive.org at https://archive.org/details/hymnsinomahalang00hami There is also a seller offering PDF versions sent electronically to you at ABEbooks.com for about 10 bucks. I hope this might be of interest to some. I am also curious about anyone's opinion or background with this work, all religious aspects aside. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Mon May 13 18:38:59 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 13:38:59 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Message-ID: Dear All, The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, lodging, transportation, dinner, etc ? which several people have asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you can still register on the "registration" link at http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, ?) you can do so by using the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email and password you used/created during your initial registration. If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner reservation. *Very Important Note on Lodging: As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. *Important Notes on Transportations: Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance so we can plan. The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. *Abstracts: I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon May 13 19:09:35 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 14:09:35 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Boyle, John wrote: > Dear All, > > > The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: > 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We > are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the > schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for > the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; > it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. > > There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, > lodging, transportation, dinner, etc ? which several people have asked > about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all > these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally > discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some > more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. > > *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: > If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you > can still register on the "registration" link at > http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. > > If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some > options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, ?) you can do so by using > the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply > go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom > right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing > Registration". You can then login with the email and password you > used/created during your initial registration. > > If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of > June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the > registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you > can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way > we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner > reservation. > > > *Very Important Note on Lodging: > As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the > Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went > through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which > nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of > the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to > actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino > Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else > is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at > this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for > the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. > > *Important Notes on Transportations: > Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the > lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on > the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. > From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't > speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If > you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the > Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. > Please let us know in advance so we can plan. > > The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is > approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be > a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back > from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. > > > *Abstracts: > I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and > abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of > you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward > to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline > as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the > conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, > John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can > send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. > > > Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 19:21:03 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:21:03 +0000 Subject: Writing two books In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0E18@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: > There is also a problem with writing two books, however. We linguists know how to write reference grammars, but (with rare exceptions, you know who you are!) we are simply are not trained to write good pedagogical materials for learners. When I recommend writing two grammars I would intend the layman's grammar to be something that a pedagogical professional could benefit from when composing teaching materials, not necessarily a grammar that the students themselves could use to teach themselves the language. I have too much experience with college students who never learned the difference between a noun and a verb to expect that just anyone could handle any sort of language grammar. Someone trained in "language arts" or "early childhood education", etc. should know what a past participle is or what a subjunctive is. I liken founding a language program to constructing a large building. It takes an architect (the linguist), a civil engineer (the educationist), plus plumbers, electricians and construction workers (the classroom teachers, assistants and native speakers). You can imagine what happens if the architect tries to construct the walls or the supports or what happens if the stone mason or carpenter tries to create the blueprints. So Willem is right, BUT I don't think the linguist is responsible for every detail of classroom instruction. That requires an intermediary who is a specialist but not necessarily a linguist. And it's that person who needs to be able to understand that second book the linguist produces. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 19:33:45 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:33:45 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. Message-ID: > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Mon May 13 19:34:09 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:34:09 -1000 Subject: Hymns in the Omaha Language. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can save a pdf for free from archive.org. The scan is really clear. Thank you for sharing this resource! Respectfully, Ardis On May 13, 2013, at 7:12 AM, Erik Hanson wrote: >> Hello: > > I have just noticed that the rather scarce 1887 William Hamilton book "Hymns in the Omaha Language" was added about two weeks ago to the free scanned books available on archive.org at > https://archive.org/details/hymnsinomahalang00hami > > There is also a seller offering PDF versions sent electronically to you at ABEbooks.com for about 10 bucks. > I hope this might be of interest to some. I am also curious about anyone's opinion or background with this work, all religious aspects aside. >> Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Mon May 13 19:46:09 2013 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 12:46:09 -0700 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C35DA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. > > Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. > > Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. > > Bob > > P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 13 20:06:10 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 20:06:10 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <586B21EC-4E0E-4592-9AB5-BCB68BB713FE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks for looking that up, Dave! I'd have had to hobble to the University library as Algonquian materials are not part of my personal library. I used to quote that passage to my Field Methods classes, and it always got a good laugh when I got to the celibacy part. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Mon May 13 21:21:17 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 16:21:17 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John: I know I registered but never received a receipt. I expected one by USPS or Email. Can you confirm that it has been received? I will call the Hotel to confirm there. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:38 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear All, The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, lodging, transportation, dinner, etc ? which several people have asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you can still register on the "registration" link at http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, ?) you can do so by using the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email and password you used/created during your initial registration. If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner reservation. *Very Important Note on Lodging: As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. *Important Notes on Transportations: Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance so we can plan. The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. *Abstracts: I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon May 13 21:44:54 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 22:44:54 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Message-ID: It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 05/13/13 9:08 PM >>> Thanks for looking that up, Dave! I'd have had to hobble to the University library as Algonquian materials are not part of my personal library. I used to quote that passage to my Field Methods classes, and it always got a good laugh when I got to the celibacy part. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. Hockett in the intro to Bloomfield's Menominee grammar, page vii: "Bloomfield was speaking of the tremendous difficulty of obtaining a really adequate of any language, and suggested, half humorously, that linguists dedicated to this task should not get married, nor teach: instead they should take a vow of celibacy, spend as long a summer as feasible each year in the field, and spend the winter collating and filing the material. With this degree of intensiveness, Bloomfield suggested, a linguist could perhaps produce good accounts of three languages in his lifetime". I should point out that Bloomfield didn't do this much, either. Dave > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon May 13 21:52:34 2013 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 22:52:34 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Message-ID: Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it is a beautiful language. Anthony >>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than I've given it. Wally On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? > glel?bli?." > > Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a > string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I > could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for > 'whirlwind'. > > Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or > unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are > now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, > Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank > is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This > is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too > painfully obvious. > > And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a > prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of > you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into > the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to > students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and > experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience > is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native > people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who > deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is > not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor > using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work > will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to > do with Kaw. > > When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was > already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to > Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few > years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been > 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has > only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of > years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. > I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar > project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the > writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for /you/. > > Bob Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon May 13 22:44:48 2013 From: chafe at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Wallace Chafe) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 15:44:48 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <51916EB2020000A60008EDF1@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Anthony, Da Cruz gave me his tapes in the 60's before he left for Beirut. I don't know what happened to him after that. They were digitized a long time ago. A few years ago I had a couple students make a separate sound file of each word, thinking I might plug those recordings into dictionary entries. I don't see his recordings on the web, which came as a surprise. Do you know where they are and who put them there? I also have useful cassettes of Caddo language classes made by Phil Newkumet. And of course I still have my own recordings which haven't been fully exploited yet. I've heard that there might be one or two speakers still alive, but I've been too occupied with other things to make the necessary trips to Oklahoma. Hence the guilt. Wally On 5/13/2013 2:52 PM, Anthony Grant wrote: > Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be > appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even > some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really > good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with > whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in > better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it > is a beautiful language. > > Anthony > >>>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> > I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to > say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of > Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different > audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them > separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be > advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they > can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and > texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The > very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone > nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder > and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the > Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than > I've given it. > > Wally > > On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? >> glel?bli?." >> >> Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a >> string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I >> could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for >> 'whirlwind'. >> >> Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or >> unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are >> now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, >> Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank >> is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This >> is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too >> painfully obvious. >> >> And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a >> prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of >> you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into >> the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to >> students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and >> experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience >> is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native >> people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who >> deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is >> not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor >> using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work >> will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to >> do with Kaw. >> >> When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was >> already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to >> Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few >> years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been >> 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has >> only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of >> years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. >> I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar >> project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the >> writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for > /you/. >> Bob > > Edge Hill University > Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 > www.edgehill.ac.uk > > > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated > companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also > the content of email for the purposes of security and business > communications during staff absence. From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 11:04:19 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 12:04:19 +0100 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: <51916CE0.9040500@linguistics.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Hi Wally: They're in the California Language Archive. I came across them one day simply by putting 'Sadie Bedoka Weller' into Google. I don't know who put them there but there are almost 4.5 hours there in 30 files, including some stuff that didn't appear in DaCruz's paper, such as a short prayer. Eva Guy Luther, whom I've never heard of, is listed as another consultant. Best Anthony >>> Wallace Chafe 13/05/2013 23:44 >>> Hi Anthony, Da Cruz gave me his tapes in the 60's before he left for Beirut. I don't know what happened to him after that. They were digitized a long time ago. A few years ago I had a couple students make a separate sound file of each word, thinking I might plug those recordings into dictionary entries. I don't see his recordings on the web, which came as a surprise. Do you know where they are and who put them there? I also have useful cassettes of Caddo language classes made by Phil Newkumet. And of course I still have my own recordings which haven't been fully exploited yet. I've heard that there might be one or two speakers still alive, but I've been too occupied with other things to make the necessary trips to Oklahoma. Hence the guilt. Wally On 5/13/2013 2:52 PM, Anthony Grant wrote: > Wally, there's still lots of Caddo data out there waiting to be > appreciated, from Gallatin, Haldeman and Gatschet onwards (and even > some before). The recordings Daniel Da Cruz made with the last really > good speaker are out there on the Web. Are there any speakers left with > whom people could rehear older records of Caddo and get them down in > better versions (recognising glottalisation, for instance)? I agree, it > is a beautiful language. > > Anthony > >>>> Wallace Chafe 05/13/13 1:27 AM >>> > I'm sort of a lurker on this list, because I don't have new things to > say about Caddo. However, I'd like to second enthusiastically two of > Bob's points. I've also decided that trying to serve two very different > audiences doesn't work out very well, and that it's better to serve them > separately. Also, and here I feel enormously guilty, everyone should be > advised to do as much in the way of documentation as they can while they > can. I'm trying in my spare time (!) to prepare a Caddo dictionary and > texts, but I wish I'd devoted much more time to that many years ago. The > very best speaker died in 1970 (!) and it was impossible to find anyone > nearly as good after that. However, I probably could have tried harder > and I was always distracted by the more rewarding situation among the > Senecas. The beautiful Caddo language deserves better treatment than > I've given it. > > Wally > > On 5/12/2013 1:59 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: >>> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? >> glel?bli?." >> >> Dick Carter used to have a couple of Lakota personal names in which a >> string of gl- and bl- sequences served as a humorous device. Wish I >> could remember them: maybe someone else can. One involved the word for >> 'whirlwind'. >> >> Let me second Jimm's plea to all of you with untranscribed and/or >> unanalyzed linguistic data, especially from Siouan languages than are >> now extinct. Just in my professional lifetime Quapaw, Osage, Kaw, >> Tutelo, Ioway, and Otoe have gone. Mandan is very close, and Hochank >> is not too far behind with Ponca and Omaha in line behind those. This >> is not something I expected to see 40 years ago, but it is now all too >> painfully obvious. >> >> And while I am reiterating Jimm's message, permit me to express a >> prejudice that I have come to believe in very strongly. For those of >> you working on dictionaries and/or grammars, please do not fall into >> the trap of trying to write a treatment that "will be useful to >> students and linguists alike." Such attempts, in my opinion and >> experience, */always/* fall between two stools, and neither audience >> is served thereby. Just go ahead and write two books, one for Native >> people who wish to learn the language, and another for linguists who >> deserve a properly unintelligible technical treatment. Nowadays it is >> not difficult to produce two parallel treatments with a word processor >> using "find and replace" along with "cut and paste". The extra work >> will be well worth the effort. This is what LInda and I are trying to >> do with Kaw. >> >> When I begain field work with Quapaw in 1972, I discovered I was >> already a couple of years too late. When I shifted my attention to >> Kawin '73, I promised to complete a dictionary and grammar in a few >> years. I finished the dictionary database in 1985, but it has now been >> 40 years since I began, and a dictionary for teaching purposes has >> only just appeared. The text collection appeared only a couple of >> years ago with the absolutely indispensable help of Justin and Linda. >> I am now retired and 74 yrs. old. I'll be lucky to finish the grammar >> project, so please do */not/* follow in my footsteps and postpone the >> writing until it's too late for the language and maybe too late for > /you/. >> Bob > > Edge Hill University > Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 > www.edgehill.ac.uk > > > This message is private and confidential. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated > companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also > the content of email for the purposes of security and business > communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 13:28:59 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:28:59 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236C35DA@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: You are right, Bob and all, I did not look up what good ole Leonard actually said. I did remember the celibate part, from when you quoted it in our class! My point was, for us (noncelibates), one or two languages is plenty. Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. > Don't feel too bad about this. As Bloomfield famously said, it is almost impossible to document one language in a lifetime, and you have documented two. Let me paraphrase what Bloomfield actually said, since I'd have to go to the library to get the exact wording: If a linguist devotes every Summer to collecting field data and every Winter to processing those data, AND REMAINS CELIBATE, he may "turn to account three languages" in a lifetime. Needless to say, I'm not even closing in on two. Bob P.S. If I recollect rightly, the original Bloomfield passage is from the introduction to his Menominee Grammar (but I could be corrected on the source. It could be the Ojibwa grammar and the quote could be Hockett quoting Bloomfield.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 13:59:08 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:59:08 +0000 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 14:32:45 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:32:45 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <51916CE6020000A60008EDED@ext.edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 16:05:50 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 17:05:50 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0F1F@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 19:03:53 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 19:03:53 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <51926EEE.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks Anthony. That is good to know. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:05 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Tue May 14 19:17:17 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 19:17:17 +0000 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0EF0@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Hello, Dear Colleagues, Actually, I am going to have to withdraw my paper, and miss the Jiwere-fest from John's wonderful students also. Like Willem, I'll be in D.C. with the Otoe-Missouria group for the Breath of Life Workshop, which is very exciting. I only wish the times weren't overlapping!!! I know you all will have a wonderful conference, but it is the prospect of being on Sitting Bull's home and at a college honoring him that is even more difficult to miss. I hope that you would all consider sharing your papers on the list after the conference? Hopefully there is a way to get a refund on the registration, or pay it forward to a student who hasn't yet paid, whichever is best for the organizers... Next year back in Missouri or Oklahoma, perhaps? Vaya con Dios, y'all! Jill Jill D. Greer Associate Professor Social Science Department 230 Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of De Reuse, Willem [WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU Tue May 14 19:42:32 2013 From: Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU (Mirzayan, Armik) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:42:32 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <5165E9840200008E00084EAD@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- From Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU Tue May 14 19:48:09 2013 From: Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU (Mirzayan, Armik) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <2E8C78A825FCF84D9B27960E9F4E9107A345E9C8D0@USD-EXMB01.usd.local> Message-ID: Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. best, Armik ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- From granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Tue May 14 19:49:52 2013 From: granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 20:49:52 +0100 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <09DD308CEC0051438A2B5FDD1A266482545B0F63@SN2PRD0102MB144.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: BTW, Willem, a big plug for your book on descriptive fieldwork to you and Shobhana C! My doctoral student thinks it's marvellous. So do I. Anthony >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 20:03 >>> Thanks Anthony. That is good to know. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:05 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt Hi Willem: John Wolff thought that Bloomfield's treatment of Tagalog merited this accolade, and I'm happy to agree with this. It would be invidious for me to compliment any living Siouanist for their grammar of their language, but I do like the late Carolyn Quintero's work on Osage. A >>> "De Reuse, Willem" 14/05/2013 15:32 >>> Hi Anthony, I do not want to go too far afield out of Siouan, but what do you mean exactly by "arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language."? I only know about Bloomfield's "Tagalog Texts". Austronesian is such a huge family, with lots of people working on it, I would think there is a more recent grammar considered the best grammar of an Austronesian language these days. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt It adds an extra poignancy when one realises that the Bloomfields didn't have children two boys, one of whom asked them to adopt the other one, for whose loneliness in the orphanage he had felt sympathy. Alice Sayers Bloomfield was none too robust. And even though Bloomfield's concept of 'Central Algonquian' is awry, he did splendid work on an Ojibwa idiolect, Menominee, tons of Plains Cree and (second-hand) Mesquakie, and wrote arguably the best grammar of an Austronesian language. Go Len! Anthony represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007, 2010, 2011 www.edgehill.ac.uk This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue May 14 19:59:47 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:59:47 -0500 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Message-ID: Yeah, it's way too easy to do. I'm replying to all on purpose for once, as others may be interested in the answer to this question: Do you know an approximate start and end time for the conference? i.e. would it make sense to be there on the 12th to be ready for an early morning start on Thursday the 13th, or will it kick off the evening of the 13th and go all day Fri-Sat or what? Thanks, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 05/14/13 2:51 PM >>> Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. best, Armik ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi Catherine, I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... best, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference Hi, Armik. Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. Best, Catherine >>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. Best wishes, Armik ----------------------------------------- Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy The University of South Dakota 414 E. Clark St. Vermillion SD 57069 Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu Phone: 605-677-3159 ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue May 14 20:01:59 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 20:01:59 +0000 Subject: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt In-Reply-To: <5192A370.6AA5.00A6.0@edgehill.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thank you, Anthony. You made my day. Very much appreciated. It was a big book, and it took us a long time to write, and my wife (first author Shobhana Chelliah) and I are still married after writing this together! Best Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Anthony Grant [granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:49 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: What Bloomfield said. but did adopt BTW, Willem, a big plug for your book on descriptive fieldwork to you and Shobhana C! My doctoral student thinks it's marvellous. So do I. Anthony From mary.marino at USASK.CA Tue May 14 20:40:22 2013 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:40:22 -0600 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Armik I'm sorry to say that I will not be able to attend the Siouan Conference this year - I hope to see you all next year. Best Mary On 13/05/2013 12:38 PM, Boyle, John wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: >> 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North >> Dakota. We are only one month away and we need to finalize the >> planning and the schedule for the conference. A number of you have >> already registered for the conference. I would like to thank you for >> your planned participation; it should be a very exciting and fun >> conference again. >> >> There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, >> lodging, transportation, dinner, etc ? which several people have >> asked about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally >> respond to all these. I had some questions myself about the process. >> I have finally discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. >> So, here are some more detailed pieces of information. I hope you >> find this helpful. >> >> *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: >> If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do >> so, you can still register on the "registration" link at >> http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. >> >> If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some >> options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, ?) you can do so by >> using the login that you created during your initial registration >> process. Simply go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and >> then at the bottom right side of the next screen click on "View or >> Change your Existing Registration". You can then login with the email >> and password you used/created during your initial registration. >> >> If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening >> of June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in >> the registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add >> that, you can go back into the registration you created and add this >> option. That way we will have a good idea of how many people to >> expect for this dinner reservation. >> >> >> *Very Important Note on Lodging: >> As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at >> the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When >> you went through the registration process the system allowed you to >> indicate which nights and how many rooms you needed. This process >> only gives us a count of the number of rooms and the dates for the >> rooms. In order for you to actually reserve a room you need to now >> call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve >> room(s) for yourself and whoever else is coming with you. So, if you >> have not contacted the Lodge please do so at this point. When you >> call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for the "Siouan and >> Caddoan Languages Conference" event. >> >> *Important Notes on Transportations: >> Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport >> to the lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The >> airport is on the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 >> miles from the Lodge. From my experience, it takes about one hour to >> drive this - if you don't speed! You can look at the directions on >> google maps (or equivalent). If you are flying into Bismarck and need >> a ride from the airport to the Lodge/Conference site we can try to >> arrange/organize carpools and pickup. Please let us know in advance >> so we can plan. >> >> The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is >> approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There >> will be a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the >> College, and back from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool >> back and forth. >> >> >> *Abstracts: >> I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and >> abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one >> of you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking >> forward to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the >> abstract deadline as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the >> last few things for the conference, if you have an idea for a paper >> and would like to present it, John Boyle and I are still able to look >> at a few more abstracts. You can send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or >> Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu >> . Please try to keep your abstracts to >> a maximum of one page. >> >> >> Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. >> >> Best wishes, >> Armik >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor >> Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy >> The University of South Dakota >> 414 E. Clark St. >> Vermillion SD 57069 >> Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu >> Phone: 605-677-3159 >> ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue May 14 21:27:53 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:27:53 -0700 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hiya John and all, I finally got my teaching responsibilities for the summer sorted out, and it looks like I'm gonna miss the conference AGAIN! This is driving me crazy. If it were the 15th and 16th I could come, but I have to teach on the 13th and 14th. Please have extra fun on my behalf! Bryan 2013/5/13 Boyle, John > Dear All, > > > The 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference is approaching fast: > 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota. We > are only one month away and we need to finalize the planning and the > schedule for the conference. A number of you have already registered for > the conference. I would like to thank you for your planned participation; > it should be a very exciting and fun conference again. > > There have been some questions and unknowns about the registration, > lodging, transportation, dinner, etc ? which several people have asked > about. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to personally respond to all > these. I had some questions myself about the process. I have finally > discussed these matters with John Boyle and Wil Meya. So, here are some > more detailed pieces of information. I hope you find this helpful. > > *Note on Registration and Additions/Changes: > If you have not registered for the conference and would like to do so, you > can still register on the "registration" link at > http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36. > > If you have registered and would like to go back and change/add some > options (i.e., add the dinner, lunches, t-shirts, ?) you can do so by using > the login that you created during your initial registration process. Simply > go back to the website, click on "Register Now", and then at the bottom > right side of the next screen click on "View or Change your Existing > Registration". You can then login with the email and password you > used/created during your initial registration. > > If you would like to join the dinner we are planning for the evening of > June 13th in the restaurant a the Casino, please indicate that in the > registration. Again, if you have decided now that you want to add that, you > can go back into the registration you created and add this option. That way > we will have a good idea of how many people to expect for this dinner > reservation. > > > *Very Important Note on Lodging: > As I indicated to some of you by email, we have a block of rooms at the > Prairie Knights Casino Lodge set aside for our conference. When you went > through the registration process the system allowed you to indicate which > nights and how many rooms you needed. This process only gives us a count of > the number of rooms and the dates for the rooms. In order for you to > actually reserve a room you need to now call the Prairie Knights Casino > Lodge at 701-854-7777 and reserve room(s) for yourself and whoever else > is coming with you. So, if you have not contacted the Lodge please do so at > this point. When you call them mention that you are reserving room(s) for > the "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" event. > > *Important Notes on Transportations: > Some of you have asked me about transportation. The closest airport to the > lodge and conference location is the Bismarck Airport. The airport is on > the east side of Bismarck, and it is approximately 55 miles from the Lodge. > From my experience, it takes about one hour to drive this - if you don't > speed! You can look at the directions on google maps (or equivalent). If > you are flying into Bismarck and need a ride from the airport to the > Lodge/Conference site we can try to arrange/organize carpools and pickup. > Please let us know in advance so we can plan. > > The conference location will be at Sitting Bull College, which is > approximately 14 miles from the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge. There will be > a free daily shuttle bus that from the the Lodge to the College, and back > from the College to the Lodge. We can also carpool back and forth. > > > *Abstracts: > I would also like to thank those who have submitted paper titles and > abstracts! I have not had a chance to personally respond to each one of > you, but I have actually received your abstracts and I am looking forward > to hearing all your papers. Originally, we had set the abstract deadline > as 5th of May. Since we are still organizing the last few things for the > conference, if you have an idea for a paper and would like to present it, > John Boyle and I are still able to look at a few more abstracts. You can > send your abstracts/ideas in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > Please try to keep your abstracts to a maximum of one page. > > > Johan and I will get back with you soon with a preliminary schedule. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed May 15 02:06:19 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 21:06:19 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill: When you get back from DC, please share the experience. I?m surprised Sky had not shared with me, then again, perhaps he is not in on this one. He?s a busy fellow, assisting many different activities in RR. jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Hello, Dear Colleagues, Actually, I am going to have to withdraw my paper, and miss the Jiwere-fest from John's wonderful students also. Like Willem, I'll be in D.C. with the Otoe-Missouria group for the Breath of Life Workshop, which is very exciting. I only wish the times weren't overlapping!!! I know you all will have a wonderful conference, but it is the prospect of being on Sitting Bull's home and at a college honoring him that is even more difficult to miss. I hope that you would all consider sharing your papers on the list after the conference? Hopefully there is a way to get a refund on the registration, or pay it forward to a student who hasn't yet paid, whichever is best for the organizers... Next year back in Missouri or Oklahoma, perhaps? Vaya con Dios, y'all! Jill Jill D. Greer Associate Professor Social Science Department 230 Webster Hall MSSU 3950 E. Newman Road Joplin, MO 64801 417.625.9795 greer-j at mssu.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of De Reuse, Willem [WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Dear all: I will not be able to make it to the conference either. My excuse: I am working for the Breath of Life Workshop in DC during that time. I will be working with Barbareno Chumash people. So reading up hard on everything Chumash. Chumash is a delightful language, thoroughly written up by our dear John P. Harrington, who was almost celibate and had nine lives. We should make Chumash a honorary Siouan or Caddoan language, so that would be a excuse to meet at Santa Barbara, and get to see Marianne and Wally more often! Willem -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:09 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Conference Sorry I will not be able to attend the conference this year. Hoping everyone who is going has fun! Dave This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Wed May 15 09:37:27 2013 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 23:37:27 -1000 Subject: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference In-Reply-To: <2E8C78A825FCF84D9B27960E9F4E9107A345E9C8D2@USD-EXMB01.usd.local> Message-ID: Ha Armik, I think it's a frustration everyone can understand (re: USD). What is the closest airport for the conference? I don't think I can come but on the off chance... Pidamayaye, Ardis On May 14, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Mirzayan, Armik wrote: > Sorry all - that didn't need to go to the entire Siouan list! I keep making this mistake too. > > best, > Armik > > ________________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mirzayan, Armik [Armik.Mirzayan at USD.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:42 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > Hi Catherine, > I am sorry this email is so late. I have been away from my USD email and from Vermillion for a while. My mom passed away in April and I had to take some time off. It has been a difficult month. > > I did get your abstract, and have it here with me. Looks great, and I'm really looking forward to your talk. John and I will send a preliminary schedule soon. > > If you haven't done so already, please do call the Prairie Knights Casino Lodge to actually reserve your rooms (I think I had included their phone number in my general email to the list yesterday). We had 25 set aside for our conference. Make sure mention "Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference" so that you will get the good rate. We have not passed the 25 limit (yet) so you will be ok. > > I am not too disappointed that the conference is not in Vermillion. I'm not too happy with USD. Being in Vermillion has isolated me from my family, and also destroying my research career for some reason. I am not able to do any research because I am either teaching a ridiculous amount of classes or I have had to travel thousands of miles. I had about 10 trips to Denver and California this past semester ... > > best, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Lakota Linguistics > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- > ________________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:36 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Registration Reminder - 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference > > Hi, Armik. > Attached is an abstract for my SCLC paper. > > I just registered a few minutes ago -- very impressive web site. > > It wasn't clear to me whether I was actually reserving a hotel room by clicking on "yes I want 2 double beds" ... I assume NOT, since it didn't list any prices or charge my card anything ... I listed my roommate as "probably Deniz Rudin" (my son, who also plans to submit a paper to the conference), but in fact it's possible that my husband will also come, in which case we'll probably want two rooms; presumably these kinds of things will get worked out later by actually calling the hotel, right??? > > We will drive there, so shouldn't need any transportation assistance. > > I admit to being disappointed the conference isn't in Vermillion. When I heard you were organizing it I thought how wonderful to have it an hours drive from Wayne ... but I'm sure it will be great. You ARE still in Vermillion, aren't you? We should really get together sometime; so close by, it's ridiculous that I almost never get up there. > > Best, > Catherine > >>>> "Mirzayan, Armik" 04/05/13 7:16 PM >>> > Dear Siouanists and Caddoanists, > > We have just a little over two months left to the 33rd Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, 13-15 June, 2013, at Sitting Bull College, at Ft. Yates, North Dakota, in conjunction with the Lakota Summer Institute! > > If you want to attend, please remember to register online soon, at the conference announcement website: http://www.laksummerinst.com/?page_id=36 > (click either on "SCLC Registration" or on "Register" and just follow through). If you are going to be presenting, you don't need to have an abstract ready now to register; you only need to have is a title/topic. That way we can start planning a preliminary schedule. > > Registering soon will help us in organizing the housing and transportation. > > And, as a reminder to presenters: Abstract submission deadline for the conference is 5th of May (one month from now). You can email abstracts, in PDF or Word format, to Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu. > > Best wishes, > Armik > > ----------------------------------------- > Armik Mirzayan, Assistant Professor > Department of Languages, Linguistics, and Philosophy > The University of South Dakota > 414 E. Clark St. > Vermillion SD 57069 > Armik.Mirzayan at usd.edu > Phone: 605-677-3159 > ----------------------------------------- Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7466 ardise at hawaii.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu May 16 18:59:36 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 18:59:36 +0000 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me gigr?nje taho. Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 16 19:21:49 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:21:49 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my current delays. But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous time in DC. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me gigr?nje taho. Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri May 17 22:17:22 2013 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:17:22 -0600 Subject: Elan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jill, Elan is indeed the video (and audio) documentation program that was written for the DoBeS projects tha Iren and I worked on. It is constantly being updated with new features, and I'm not swift enough to make use of many of them. It is very easy to use once you are familiar with it, but as you said, starting a new software program is never easy. I don't find their user manuals very helpful, but the people on the development team in Nijmegen are very quick and thorough with the answers to questions (at least for me; I assume that holds for people they don't know, too). Iren is good with it, and I know either she or I would be happy to answer questions if we can. One very important thing before you get started very far: plan carefully what you want your tier structure to look like, because it's hard (for me) to change afterwards. Read the manual pages about this four or five times, then go away for a few days and read it again. There are several different ways to "link" tiers into groups so they can be moved and added and deleted together. Once you get done, however, the search and print functions are wonderful. Best, ] David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 16 May 2013, Greer, Jill wrote: > I???ll do my best, Jimm. You???re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn???t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I???m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn???t want to let me use any non-Mac material???. > > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > Yes, Jill! > Do go through ???all my field notes??? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ???whenever.??? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ???The Lost Nation: The Ioway??? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I???ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I???d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B??xoje Jiw??re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > Ix^??n sw??hsje ke; Ama ch^?? t??rigi ??re ke. H??nwegi dag??re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh??da hint??gan Bi m??ngrida d??hahajena ar??chi x??me gigr??nje taho. > > Gasunhsji had??dana ke. T??rigunda > Jimm > > From: Greer, Jill > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can???t say it themselves. It is simply: > > k??ge glel??bli??? gl??bla??? h??ya??? glel??bli???na??? gl??bla??? glel??bli??? agl????? glel??bli???." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat May 18 00:00:08 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 00:00:08 +0000 Subject: Elan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, David! I'm sure it will take me longer than most - I'm a bit of a Luddite at best. It's nice to have you and Iren (and all the MP folks) handy for advice. Maybe I need to wait until after the trip to DC to get too engrossed in learning new software. I'm supposed to be making a bibliography and getting things ready for the workshop, although I'm still not exactly sure what that will entail. I really did listen to your talk last year, but other than thinking it was a great tool and enjoying the Wichita folks speaking to us, the specifics are gone now. I was hoping to do some captioned video clips of patriotic and NAC songs for language learners / tribespeople ideally, and eventually work on transcribing some partially begun work. But first it's time to make some verb paradigms and other technical stuff for the grammar sketch, which may get some adjustments after the NEIU papers come in. Texts are just so much more fun... And by the way, thanks to you and Bob especially for all the continuous devotion to Siouan and Caddoan work. I don't know what other small groups of Americanists are like, but I can't imagine anyone else being more supportive and cooperative than you all have always been. I guess I'll be meeting some members of a few other sets in D.C. shortly! Jill ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of ROOD DAVID S [david.rood at COLORADO.EDU] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 10:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Elan Jill, Elan is indeed the video (and audio) documentation program that was written for the DoBeS projects tha Iren and I worked on. It is constantly being updated with new features, and I'm not swift enough to make use of many of them. It is very easy to use once you are familiar with it, but as you said, starting a new software program is never easy. I don't find their user manuals very helpful, but the people on the development team in Nijmegen are very quick and thorough with the answers to questions (at least for me; I assume that holds for people they don't know, too). Iren is good with it, and I know either she or I would be happy to answer questions if we can. One very important thing before you get started very far: plan carefully what you want your tier structure to look like, because it's hard (for me) to change afterwards. Read the manual pages about this four or five times, then go away for a few days and read it again. There are several different ways to "link" tiers into groups so they can be moved and added and deleted together. Once you get done, however, the search and print functions are wonderful. Best, ] David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Thu, 16 May 2013, Greer, Jill wrote: > I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. > > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > Yes, Jill! > Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. > > By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their c! hildren. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. > > However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. > > So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. > > I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: > Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me gigr?nje taho. > > Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda > Jimm > > From: Greer, Jill > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? > > > Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... > > > > of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) > > > > Best, > > Jill Greer > > > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? > Hello, > > Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. > The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: > > "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. > Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. > They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: > > k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." > > While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. > If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. > > Be well, > Saul > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 23 18:26:52 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 13:26:52 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and ?Thursday? is meant to be ?Wednesday.? If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH ? 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 ? 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Thu May 23 17:44:48 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 12:44:48 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 33rd SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 121948 bytes Desc: 33rd SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu May 23 19:34:48 2013 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 14:34:48 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank You for that correction. Now to see if Fr. Yates Casino Hotel will be so kind as to adjust the dates accorinding. From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Jimm, Thanks for pointing out the error. There is always something. Attached is the correct schedule with the correct dates. The conference is Thursday June 13 ? Saturday June 15. My apologies for the error. All the best, John From: Jimm GoodTracks Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:26 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and ?Thursday? is meant to be ?Wednesday.? If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH ? 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 ? 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU Thu May 23 18:54:50 2013 From: jp-boyle at NEIU.EDU (Boyle, John) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 13:54:50 -0500 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: <12AB06885E5B4959967072A56291C51A@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Hi Jimm, Thanks for pointing out the error. There is always something. Attached is the correct schedule with the correct dates. The conference is Thursday June 13 ? Saturday June 15. My apologies for the error. All the best, John From: Jimm GoodTracks > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:26 PM To: "SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu" > Subject: Re: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Dear John: The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and ?Thursday? is meant to be ?Wednesday.? If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. Jimm From: Boyle, John Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule Hi Everyone, Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, John THE 33RD SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE SITTING BULL COLLEGE FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA JUNE 12TH ? 14TH 2013 THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 1:00 ? 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: corrected SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 122155 bytes Desc: corrected SACLC Tentative schedule.pdf URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 25 03:52:39 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 20:52:39 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Message-ID: Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat May 25 16:50:14 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 11:50:14 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369453959.87942.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Scott, I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to be a literal translation of the English. Rather, I think the more natural Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent I-love'. Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am I sure about the definite article prefix i-. (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) Is chiko:yo 'sweet'? (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi ckuye.) If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo 'sw eetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.' That would then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I love.' I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or correct my analyses.... Dave On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > Verb at end of sentence****** > > Adjectives follow nouns**** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun)**** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb)**** > > The = i- (definite article)**** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition)**** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat May 25 18:12:27 2013 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 18:12:27 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Small observation about 'separate as in Lakota kin'. Lakota kin is an enclitic, i.e. phonologically part of the preceding word, but we write this enclitic separately by convention, just like other enclitics such as plural pi are written together with preceding word by convention. (I know there is probably no good cross-linguistic definition of cliticization, but in Lakota the difference between clitic things an nonclitic things is fairly clear; I am not even saying that once a clitic, always a clitic; there are cases where plural pi is stressed, and therefore not a clitic, same thing might be true of some kin...) Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 25 19:07:19 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is the entry from William Meuse's dictionary on the two words I have used for?the origin word. ? "*Aqekon, to be so. (Dors.: Kaqekonbina.) Uncertain; only recorded in neg. desiderative mode. Cf. Qekego, manifest. Ima kaqekonbina, he doesn?t want to be so. Alt. sp.: Axekon, Xexon [O, R, ST]." ---Meuse, Yesanechi, pg. 6. ? Since "of" and "from" are origin words I have been using "qekego". ? sweet = chiko:yo grass = oto: ? So it should be oto: chiko:yo for sweetgrass? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 11:50 AM Scott, I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to be a literal translation of the English.? Rather, I think the more natural Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent I-love'.? Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am I sure about the definite article prefix i-.? (In Biloxi and some other Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) Is chiko:yo 'sweet'?? (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi ckuye.)? If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo 'sweetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.'? That would then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I love.' I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or correct my analyses.... Dave On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins wrote: Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat May 25 19:30:41 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 14:30:41 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369508839.21745.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So, the Biloxi words for 'sweet potato' and 'sugar' are probably good illustrations: ado wax-ckuuye, lit. 'potato sugar' = sweet potato wax-ckuuye, lit. 'salt sweet' = sugar That word waxckuuye arises from the combination waasi ckuuye, lit. 'salt sweet' = sugar. The ending -s(i) becomes -x in Biloxi. So note that, in each case above, the adjective modifying potato or salt comes after the noun being modified, the same setup as your word oto:chiko:yo lit. 'grass-sweet' or sweetgrass. I guess it's up to you whether you want to write those combined into one word or separate words - I don't know any hard and fast rules about this in Siouan, and, as you can see, Biloxi uses both methods. Dave On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > Here is the entry from William Meuse's dictionary on the two words I have > used for the origin word. > > "**Aqekon*, to be so. > > (Dors.: *Kaqekonbina*.) Uncertain; only recorded in neg. desiderative > mode. Cf. > > Qekego > , manifest. *Ima kaqekonbina*, he doesn?t want to be so. > Alt. sp.: > *Axekon, Xexon *[O, R, ST]." ---Meuse, Yesanechi, pg. 6. > > Since "of" and "from" are origin words I have been using "qekego". > > sweet = chiko:yo > grass = oto: > > So it should be oto: chiko:yo for sweetgrass? > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, David Kaufman * wrote: > > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 11:50 AM > > Scott, > > I don't have my Tutelo material in front of me, but my gut reaction is > that your sentence would not be natural to a Siouan-speaker; it appears to > be a literal translation of the English. Rather, I think the more natural > Siouan way, which hopefully some other Siouanists here could chime in on, > would be more like chiko:yo oto: pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'sweetgrass-scent > I-love'. Not having the Tutelo dictionary with me, I'm not sure about > qekego 'of' (I'm not aware of Siouan having a postposition for 'of') nor am > I sure about the definite article prefix i-. (In Biloxi and some other > Siouan languages like Lakota and Dhegiha the definite article is after the > noun, either suffixed as in Biloxi -yaN or separate as in Lakota kin.) > > Is chiko:yo 'sweet'? (I'm assuming it probably is since it's Biloxi > ckuye.) If oto is 'grass' then it seems to me it would be oto: chiko:yo > 'sweetgrass', since sweet is the adjective modifying 'grass.' That would > then give: oto: chiko:yo pi mi-yato-ste:kE lit. 'grass-sweet scent I > love.' > > I hope this makes sense, and maybe other Siouanists can either verify or > correct my analyses.... > > Dave > > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Scott Collins > > wrote: > > Verb at end of sentence****** > > Adjectives follow nouns**** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun)**** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb)**** > > The = i- (definite article)**** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition)**** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) > > > > My final conjugation: > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) > > Is this all correct? > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sat May 25 20:07:39 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 20:07:39 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369453959.87942.YahooMailClassic@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 01:06:46 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 18:06:46 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Message-ID: Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM #yiv1334158451 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun May 26 14:00:46 2013 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 15:00:46 +0100 Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule In-Reply-To: <12AB06885E5B4959967072A56291C51A@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Have a good time everyone Bruce On 23 May 2013, at 19:26, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Dear John: > > The SCLC is scheduled June 12, 13, 14, 2013. The calendars in this house state that June 12th is Wednesday, followed by 13th (Thursday), then Friday, the 14th. > > Yet, your schedule of presentations begin on: THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013. I trust that this is a misprint and ?Thursday? is meant to be ?Wednesday.? If not this error will have cause a mess with the motel reservations, as I have it reserved to check in on Tuesday the 11th, so as to be there a day ahead of time. > > Please confirm for all, just what is what? I hope the dates 12th ~ 14th are indeed the dates, so as not to get in a hassle with the hotel and other pending arrangements. > Jimm > > From: Boyle, John > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:44 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: 33rd Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference - Tentative Schedule > > Hi Everyone, > > Attached is the tentative schedule for the Siouan and Caddoan languages Conference. Please let me know if you have any questions. > > All the best, > > John > > THE 33RD > SIOUAN AND CADDOAN LANGUAGES CONFERENCE > SITTING BULL COLLEGE > FT. YATES, NORTH DAKOTA > JUNE 12TH ? 14TH 2013 > > THURSDAY JUNE 12TH 2013 > > 1:00 ? 1:30 ARMIK MIRZAYAN (The University of South Dakota) Pitch in Wichita > morphology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 20:16:55 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:16:55 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369530406.63704.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 21:19:46 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:19:46 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: "Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?" ? Here is what Oliverio has going from Tutelo-Saponi to English: "mukta:ki????? grass" "N" "muktagi (H1883a) see also sokta:ki , ot: 'grass' "?----pg. 246 ? "oto:????? green, leaf, grass" "N, V" "otoi 'leaf' (H1878); otoi 'leaf' (H1879); otoi, otoq (N) 'leaf'; otoi 'grass'; oto (N) 'green' (H1883a)" "Ofo: ithohi 'green, blue' " "Biloxi: tohi, tohi 'green' " "Dakota: tho 'green' " "see also mukta:ki, sokta:ki 'grass' " ---pg. 263 ? "sokta-ki????????? grass" "N" "sunktagi (H1878); sunktago (H1879); sunktaki (N) (H1883a)" "see also mukta:ki, oto:? 'grass' " ---pg. 273 ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 21:28:23 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 21:28:23 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369603186.81204.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good. That confirms that they all do mean ?grass?. The oto: word seems generic enough to refer to perhaps any green vegetation as well as the color, but the other two just refer straight back to ?grass?, so I would suggest using one of them. I wonder what the difference is though? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:20 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?" Here is what Oliverio has going from Tutelo-Saponi to English: "mukta:ki grass" "N" "muktagi (H1883a) see also sokta:ki , ot: 'grass' " ----pg. 246 "oto: green, leaf, grass" "N, V" "otoi 'leaf' (H1878); otoi 'leaf' (H1879); otoi, otoq (N) 'leaf'; otoi 'grass'; oto (N) 'green' (H1883a)" "Ofo: ithohi 'green, blue' " "Biloxi: tohi, tohi 'green' " "Dakota: tho 'green' " "see also mukta:ki, sokta:ki 'grass' " ---pg. 263 "sokta-ki grass" "N" "sunktagi (H1878); sunktago (H1879); sunktaki (N) (H1883a)" "see also mukta:ki, oto: 'grass' " ---pg. 273 Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Sun May 26 21:32:27 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:32:27 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: "pi:???? good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio ? "-pi??? desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " ? "pi:kha?????? good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)"? ? "pi??????? smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun May 26 22:56:25 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 22:56:25 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369530406.63704.YahooMailClassic@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not trying simply to contradict everything that others say about Tutelo, and I'm sure Giulia made some mistakes in her analysis just like we all do. Meuse apparently wanted to "simplify" Giulia's and other linguists' presentation. That is laudable, but he went about it in a naive fashion. The most accurate way to standardize all the different sources of Tutelo vocabulary is to follow the principles Oliverio used. Sure, you can substitute "ch" for "c" with the wedge over it and "an" for nasal "a" with the rightward hook beneath, but to just reproduce all the confusing 19th century spellings only makes things worse. If you want to learn Greek, the first thing you do is learn the Greek alphabet. Same for Russian, Japanese or Cherokee, etc. And if a person wants to learn Tutelo, the place to start is with Oliverio's phonemic spellings, not all the variable usages from the 1880s. Giulia's grammatical discussions are indeed written for professional linguists, but her dictionary is much more accessible. > "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?.---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.The word "the" is a definite article correct? Notice among your words for 'grass' the number of times a term ends in "-gi" or "-ki". These are two spellings for earlier "-ki" and should be standardized as such. This matches the definite article in several Dakotan languages and in Sapir's Tutelo. That is your best bet for an article, and it will always follow the noun it modifies. The word "oto:" could only mean 'grass' in the sense of 'greenery'. It does not literally mean 'grass', just 'something green' (or blue!). > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka They're both right, Meuse just doesn't know how to standardize the pronunciation. It's clear that in Tutelo it simply didn't matter whether you said "p" or "b", "t" or "d", "k" or "g". The voiceless pronunciation, as "p, t, k" was older and more conservative. The real distinction in Tutelo was whether "p, t, k" had an "h" sound after them or not. > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 Right. But in translating it into Tutelo, note that 'sweetgrass' is not the same as 'sweet grass', even in English, and certainly not in Dakota, the same as 'blackbird' is not the same as 'black bird'. Not every black bird is a blackbird. Not every sweet grass is sweetgrass. > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Gilmore's ethnobotany or the one by my colleague, Kelly Kindscher, are good sources, but neither one really covers the eastern Piedmont. I'm sure you are more expert in Tutelo cultural matters than I am. > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " Right. And notice the suffix. > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language I understand what you're trying to do, and somewhere there's a "happy medium" between direct and cultural translation. >. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. I hear you. It's a real challenge. > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. I'm sure. The notion "definite article" is very different in nearly every language, even closely related ones. There's a story of a Polish linguist who gave a professional lecture at the Univ. of Pennsylvania entitled "English language requires use of definite article", in which he didn't get a single one right. > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Yep. Oliverio needs to be "translated" from Linguistics into instructional English. There is no way to write a single grammar that will inform linguists and speakers/learners equally. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun May 26 23:53:02 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 18:53:02 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE860@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Scott,**** > > ** ** > > Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the > ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying > words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about > the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We > should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English > or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s > logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we > classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive > to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on > its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal > grammatical classifications.**** > > ** ** > > In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the > simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything > about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it > should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:**** > > ** ** > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European > languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first > clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both > ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, > insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when > you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The > smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is > something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? > is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a > particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not > need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may > shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:**** > > ** ** > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for > ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that > matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our > logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable > enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of > handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes > the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English > too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of > sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the > two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation:**** > > ** ** > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by > simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the > ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it > describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?:* > *** > > ** ** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].**** > > ** ** > > Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just > need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would > be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the > I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be > something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? > Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations > tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to > me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just > what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from > loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan > languages likely do.**** > > ** ** > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might > call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a > dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? > word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a > command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as > a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. > Compare:**** > > ** ** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m > just telling you about myself and what I like.)**** > > ** ** > > **I** love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, > unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.)**** > > ** ** > > If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the > second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how > to say ?I love it? about an odor.**** > > ** ** > > At this point, we have:**** > > ** ** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].**** > > ** ** > > where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, > not a separate word by itself.**** > > ** ** > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations.**** > > ** ** > > It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?:**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki**** > > mukta:ki**** > > oto:**** > > ** ** > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see > what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine > the problem by chasing it down from the other direction.**** > > ** ** > > Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have > been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation > when we say ?greenery??**** > > ** ** > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they > actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, > ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean?**** > > ** ** > > Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as > sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:** > ** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ?**** > > ** ** > > Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have:**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell > of sweetgrass?.**** > > ** ** > > The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a > transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but > it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi > dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem > to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are > verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of > odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m > wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we > might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a > transitive verb, then**** > > ** ** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].**** > > ** ** > > might mean**** > > ** ** > > ?I love to smell sweetgrass.?**** > > ** ** > > rather than**** > > ** ** > > ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.?**** > > ** ** > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the > end-user.**** > > ** ** > > Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as**** > > ** ** > > ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s > heart?**** > > ** ** > > Biloxi has a comparable word:**** > > ** ** > > ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good > to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)?**** > > ** ** > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or > possessive marker ?ki?:**** > > ** ** > > ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied?**** > > ** ** > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try:*** > * > > ** ** > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke.**** > > ** ** > > I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo > doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-)**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you > will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on > Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your > persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand > that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of > their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover > it. Good luck in all your work!**** > > ** ** > > All the best,**** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > ** ** > > Here is what Meuse had for -i :**** > > > * * > > *"-i*, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, > the?. Also *-y*. **** > > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and > follow the **** > > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals > can **** > > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real > distinction between **** > > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is > purely **** > > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable > of the **** > > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally > indicated by **** > > final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a > ?broken? dipthong **** > > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. > This **** > > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken > dipthong?; **** > > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." > ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.**** > > **** > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.**** > > **** > > The word "the" is a definite article correct?**** > > **** > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE**** > > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka**** > > **** > > **** > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: > http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328**** > > **** > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that > the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it > at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called > sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at > what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done > in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to > read it.**** > > **** > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi"**** > > **** > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " **** > > **** > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word > for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a > good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely > not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to > try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me > sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual > dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were > unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's > dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word > formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this > list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, > for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to > utilize the language. **** > > **** > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see > Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.**** > > **** > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on > Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as > well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive > interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't > tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > **** > > **** > > **** > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help > has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able > to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and > truly Siouan as a living language. **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. * wrote:**** > > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM**** > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English > word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the > smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m > not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that > preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan > language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. > And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound > of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. **** > > **** > > I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as > though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for > letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, > included all earlier research and includes context with examples. **** > > **** > > I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos > had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term > for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and > Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are > more widespread. **** > > **** > > The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it > probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to > do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. **** > > ** ** > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where > that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it > appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches > the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in > Tutelo.**** > > **** > > Bob **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott > Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > Verb at end of sentence **** > > Adjectives follow nouns **** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. **** > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun) **** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) **** > > The = i- (definite article) **** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition) **** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) **** > > > > My final conjugation: **** > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) **** > > **** > > Is this all correct?**** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."**** > > ** ** > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun May 26 23:53:30 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 23:53:30 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369603947.59813.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great. It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 00:04:58 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:04:58 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FE93E@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 00:43:47 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:43:47 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob. John, can I access Oliverio in the Archive somehow? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 7:05 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson > wrote: Great. It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 00:59:35 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:59:35 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:15:26 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:15:26 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <6ecfepovsc2utn88asu824w5.1369616381804@email.android.com> Message-ID: Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary by Oliverio You can order the Oliverio Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary at www.proquest.com or by calling 1-800-521-0600 or 734-761-4700 The UMI number is #9811327 "A Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" by Giulia R.M. Oliverio (1996) http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf This is a paper Oliverio did on "Tutelo Nouns". You may have to fill out a request form for the PDF file. ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 7:59 PM Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great.? It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. ?The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. ? Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi?? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller.? Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? ? Thanks, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? "pi:???? good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio ? "-pi??? desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " ? "pi:kha?????? good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)"? ? "pi??????? smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:27:58 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:27:58 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi? win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.? It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).? The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'? This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.? Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).? It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.? According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.? The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.? (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.? Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:31:06 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:31:06 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625278.76096.YahooMailClassic@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi? win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.? It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).? The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'? This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.? Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).? It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.? According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.? The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.? (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.? Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 03:44:59 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:44:59 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625466.79404.YahooMailClassic@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also another question regarding "pi". ? Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio ? and ? "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio ? ? It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:31 PM Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins wrote: From: Scott Collins Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi? win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott.? It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135).? The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.'? This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative.? Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202).? It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i.? According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se.? The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns.? (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps.? Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Scott, ? Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?.? We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English.? We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way.? I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. ? In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct.? I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: ? ??????????????? [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot.? In some other European languages, it might be required even more.? In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article.? But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality.? ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?.? ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article.? (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!)? So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: ? ??????????????? [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. ? As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language.? They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too.? In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?.? That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way.? Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?.? This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations.? Siouan would use the second formulation: ? ??????????????? [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. ? As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes.? Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. ? Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?.? For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?.? For most verbs, this would be pretty easy.? You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it.? In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.?? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?.? They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked.? Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend.? We don?t make the distinction in English. ?Siouan languages likely do. ? Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?.? This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is.? In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command.? In Siouan, this is not necessary.? We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.? Compare: ? ??????????????? I love the smell of sweetgrass.?????????????????? (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) ? ??????????????? *I* love the smell of sweetgrass.???????????? (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) ? If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea.? So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. ? At this point, we have: ? ??????????????? [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. ? where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. ? Now we just have to plug in the right translations. ? It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki ??????????????? mukta:ki ??????????????? oto: ? Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way?? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. ? Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?.? Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? ? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements?? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear?? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? ? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass?? ? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. ? The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb.? We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo.? Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs.? (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.)? The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi??? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble.? Or not.? Siouan can be flexible.? If it is a transitive verb, then ? ??????????????? sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. ? might mean ? ??????????????? ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? ? rather than ? ??????????????? ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? ? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. ? Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ? ??????????????? ya?t-o-steke?????? = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? ? Biloxi has a comparable word: ? ??????????????? ki-ya?di-pi??????????? = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? ? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ? ??????????????? ?ki-ya?di-pi????????? = ?I am satisfied? ? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ? ??????????????? Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. ? I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this.? I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi!? :-) ? ? Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list.? Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest.? It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it.? Good luck in all your work! ? All the best, Rory ? ? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi ? Here is what Meuse had for -i : ? "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. ? Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. ? The word "the" is a definite article correct? ? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka ? ? Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 ? However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are?other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. ? Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" ? Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass? mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki "? ? I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but?I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because?none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words.??Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language.?? ? The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages).?It gets confusing. ? My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only?extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. ??? ? Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi.? The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan.? I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?.? And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?.? ? I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter.? It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.? ? I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south.? The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage.? I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.? ? The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?.? In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself..? So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?.? ? I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from.? In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. ? Bob From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb ? I love the smell of sweetgrass. ? I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego ?chiko:yo oto: ?mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) ? ? Is this all correct? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ? -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 16:34:37 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 16:34:37 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625466.79404.YahooMailClassic@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It?s fine with me, if Bob and Dave have no problem. And thanks for the Tutelo links! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:31 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi Facebook group? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins > wrote: From: Scott Collins > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman > wrote: From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon May 27 16:57:41 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 11:57:41 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEA7F@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: No problem here. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Rory Larson wrote: > It?s fine with me, if Bob and Dave have no problem. And thanks for the > Tutelo links!**** > > ** ** > > Rory**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:31 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > ** ** > > Is it ok with you guys if I share this discourse with the Tutelo-Saponi > Facebook group?**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sun, 5/26/13, Scott Collins * wrote:**** > > > From: Scott Collins > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 10:27 PM**** > > The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is **** > > "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ?**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman * wrote:**** > > > From: David Kaufman > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM**** > > Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I > think: > > I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks > like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N > representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be > used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think > about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be > appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would > look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun > dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out > as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi > aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or > possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = > causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, > so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate > with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. > > Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article > 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= > English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the > Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with > Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite > article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo > yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last > would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). > > Hope this helps. > > Dave **** > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > > wrote:**** > > Hi Scott,**** > > **** > > Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the > ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying > words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about > the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We > should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English > or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s > logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we > classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive > to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on > its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal > grammatical classifications.**** > > **** > > In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the > simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything > about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it > should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: **** > > **** > > [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. **** > > **** > > In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European > languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first > clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both > ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, > insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when > you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The > smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is > something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? > is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a > particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not > need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may > shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: **** > > **** > > [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. **** > > **** > > As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for > ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that > matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our > logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable > enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of > handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes > the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English > too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of > sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the > two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: **** > > **** > > [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. **** > > **** > > As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by > simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the > ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it > describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: > **** > > **** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. **** > > **** > > Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just > need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would > be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the > I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be > something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? > Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations > tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to > me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just > what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from > loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan > languages likely do. **** > > **** > > Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might > call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a > dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? > word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a > command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as > a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. > Compare: **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m > just telling you about myself and what I like.) **** > > **** > > **I** love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, > unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) **** > > **** > > If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the > second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how > to say ?I love it? about an odor. **** > > **** > > At this point, we have: **** > > **** > > [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. **** > > **** > > where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, > not a separate word by itself. **** > > **** > > Now we just have to plug in the right translations. **** > > **** > > It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: **** > > **** > > sokta:ki **** > > mukta:ki **** > > oto: **** > > **** > > Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see > what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine > the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. **** > > **** > > Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have > been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation > when we say ?greenery?? **** > > **** > > Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they > actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, > ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? **** > > **** > > Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as > sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: * > *** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? **** > > **** > > Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: **** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell > of sweetgrass?. **** > > **** > > The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a > transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but > it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi > dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem > to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are > verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of > odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m > wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we > might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a > transitive verb, then **** > > **** > > sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. **** > > **** > > might mean **** > > **** > > ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? **** > > **** > > rather than **** > > **** > > ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? **** > > **** > > Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the > end-user. **** > > **** > > Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as **** > > **** > > ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s > heart? **** > > **** > > Biloxi has a comparable word: **** > > **** > > ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good > to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? **** > > **** > > This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or > possessive marker ?ki?: **** > > **** > > ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? **** > > **** > > So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: ** > ** > > **** > > Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. **** > > **** > > I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo > doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) **** > > **** > > **** > > Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you > will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on > Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your > persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand > that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of > their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover > it. Good luck in all your work! **** > > **** > > All the best, **** > > Rory **** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Scott Collins > *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > **** > > > *Subject:* Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > **** > > Here is what Meuse had for -i :**** > > > * ***** > > *"-i*, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, > the?. Also *-y*. **** > > Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and > follow the **** > > word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals > can **** > > also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real > distinction between **** > > indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is > purely **** > > aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable > of the **** > > construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally > indicated by **** > > final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? > dipthong **** > > similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. > This **** > > sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken > dipthong?; **** > > exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." > ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.**** > > **** > > Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.**** > > **** > > The word "the" is a definite article correct?**** > > **** > > Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE**** > > Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka**** > > **** > > **** > > Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: > http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328**** > > **** > > However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that > the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it > at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called > sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at > what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done > in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to > read it.**** > > **** > > Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi"**** > > **** > > Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " **** > > **** > > I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word > for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a > good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely > not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to > try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me > sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual > dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were > unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's > dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word > formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this > list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, > for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to > utilize the language. **** > > **** > > The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see > Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.**** > > **** > > My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on > Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as > well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive > interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't > tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. > **** > > **** > > **** > > Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help > has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able > to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and > truly Siouan as a living language. **** > > **** > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > >* wrote:**** > > > From: Rankin, Robert L. > > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM **** > > I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English > word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the > smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m > not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that > preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan > language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. > And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound > of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. **** > > **** > > I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as > though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for > letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, > included all earlier research and includes context with examples. **** > > **** > > I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos > had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term > for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and > Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are > more widespread. **** > > **** > > The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it > probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to > do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. **** > > **** > > I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where > that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it > appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches > the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in > Tutelo.**** > > **** > > Bob **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM > ] > *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi**** > > Verb at end of sentence **** > > Adjectives follow nouns **** > > Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb **** > > **** > > I love the smell of sweetgrass. **** > > **** > > I = mi (subject/noun) **** > > Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) **** > > The = i- (definite article) **** > > Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) > **** > > Of = qekego (preposition) **** > > Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) **** > > > > My final conjugation: **** > > I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of > sweetgrass.) **** > > **** > > Is this all correct?**** > > **** > > **** > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening."**** > > **** > > > > > -- > David Kaufman, Ph.C. > University of Kansas > Linguistic Anthropology**** > > ** ** > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 18:24:50 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 18:24:50 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369626299.37266.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ? It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Desiderative would imply that the thing is desired. I?m also very interested in this particle, and in how it is used. I assume the basic idea is that when you put ?pi? after a verb, it means that someone wants the verb to be done, though not necessarily something they want to do themself. In Biloxi, there is a particle ?hi? that is used in several different ways, including ones that might be considered desiderative. I think Dave describes it as a sort of ?weak? future, used for future events that aren?t set in stone. It might be used where someone intends to do something, or is thinking about doing something. It is also used for whatever someone is telling someone else to do. In some cases, it might be translated as ?should? or ?ought?. Some examples of its uses: The Rabbit and the brier patch (Dorsey texts, 1:17): As?? ay??sih?-xti k?, as?? ??no?d? hi na. Briers you=fear-greatly since, briers I=throw=you INTENTION MALE_EMPHATIC. Considering that you greatly fear the briers, I think I'll throw you into the briers, yeah! Telling someone to do something (8:19): ?a h? ki-?-di ko?n?-ya?-ka?. Cook=it should to=her-said-he mother-that=one-then. He told his mother to cook it. Indirect command (29:4): A?xt? na?k?-di y?kida h?, ?-d? n?. Iy??si-xt?, ?-d? n?. Woman sitting=over=there you=go=home should, says-she EMPH. You=smell-greatly, says-she EMPH. That woman sitting over yonder says you should go home. She says you stink! Subjunctive or unfocussed command, as in ?Let it be so!? (8:9): Ki?wo utoh? h?. Another lie=down=in=it let. Let another lie down in it. Should, ought, supposed to (8:22): ?d?x-ni h? yuh?. I=eat=it-not ought she=thought. I am not to eat it, she thought. I?m wondering if this sort of functionality is what Oliverio has in mind when she describes Tutelo ?pi? as ?desiderative?. I?d really like to see some Tutelo text, with examples of desiderative ?pi? in context. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:45 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Also another question regarding "pi". Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio and "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It seems that "pi" is used to mean smell and good both. Kind of confusing. Also what is desiderative? Some of these linguistic terms I don't know. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:06:08 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:06:08 +0000 Subject: Tutelo-Saponi exchanges on social media. Message-ID: Giulia was my student at K.U. and I supervised her dissertation. Maybe I can facilitate everybody getting these files. We need to get all her papers in .pdf form and simply distribute them to you folks who are working trying to resuscitate Tutelo. You shouldn't have to pay for them. As for putting our conversations here on-line for the community, I don't have anything against the idea. I've been frank with my opinion of some of the attempts to bring the language to the community and I would prefer not to get into a "pissing contest" with Mr. Meuse, so maybe you can edit my comments and tone them down a bit. Unquestionably, his heart is in the right place. But a spelling system for all known Tutelo vocabulary needs to be devised and standardized. Giulia Oliverio tried to do just that. Her phonemicization is basically very accurate. She did the best job she could "reconstituting" the most conservative form of each word based on (a) the many variant spellings and, (b) her (and my) knowledge of the same words in related Siouan languages, given that sound changes between languages are basically regular. Beyond that, it's up to you folks to agree on the regularized way of writing the standard sounds of Tutelo for learning purposes. You just start with Giulia's basic entry for each Tutelo word and substitute whatever letter you choose for each speech sound (phoneme). As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker. If you're going to post this on the social media, permit me to repeat here something I wrote with regard to another Siouan List item a week or two ago. I think it definitely says something about the problem of the various sources, spellings and pronunciations of Tutelo and the interpretation of linguists' treatments for non-linguists. "When I recommend writing two grammars I would intend the layman's grammar to be something that a pedagogical professional could benefit from when composing teaching materials, not necessarily a grammar that the students themselves could use to teach themselves the language. I have too much experience with college students who never learned the difference between a noun and a verb to expect that just anyone could handle any sort of language grammar. Someone trained in "language arts" or "early childhood education", etc. should know what a past participle is or what a subjunctive is. I liken founding a language program to constructing a large building. It takes an architect (the linguist), a civil engineer (the educationist), plus plumbers, electricians and construction workers (the classroom teachers, assistants and native speakers). You can imagine what happens if the architect tries to construct the walls or the supports or what happens if the stone mason or carpenter tries to create the blueprints. So Willem is right, BUT I don't think the linguist is responsible for every detail of classroom instruction. That requires an intermediary who is a specialist but not necessarily a linguist. And it's that person who needs to be able to understand that second book the linguist produces." I don't know Mr. Meuse's educational background, but I suspect he might be a good person to interpret Oliverio for students. He has an on-line list of vocabulary from Tutelo and several other Siouan languages that he apparently put together at M.I.T.'s modern languages department. If so, he must be a pretty smart guy, and perhaps with a little help from all of us he'll be a help with unified learning materials. At the moment, we simply don't know who the fellow is. Best, Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary by Oliverio You can order the Oliverio Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary at www.proquest.com or by calling 1-800-521-0600 or 734-761-4700 The UMI number is #9811327 "A Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" by Giulia R.M. Oliverio (1996) http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf This is a paper Oliverio did on "Tutelo Nouns". You may have to fill out a request form for the PDF file. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 7:59 PM Get the whole CD from him. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes. Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Rory Larson wrote: Great. It looks like there are three ?pi? words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ?smell? is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation. Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I?ve googled, but her book doesn?t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson > wrote: From: Rory Larson > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:10:09 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369625278.76096.YahooMailClassic@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:54:46 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:54:46 +0000 Subject: Various "pi" terms. Message-ID: This email needs to be viewed as an HTML file so the raised symbols will display correctly. > Also another question regarding "pi". > Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio I think, after thinking about it, that "pi" meaning 'good' should have the aspirated "ph" Desiderative mode should have the unaspirated "p". In other words, they sound different. > "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " > "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" I think it should be "phikha" in Oliverio's spelling. "phikha" in my spelling here. > "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It looks to me as though 'smell' has a nasal vowel and is therefore different in pronunciation from the other two entries, above. It would be "pin". It turns out to be instructive to look at 'smell' is some of the other Siouan languages. I think it turns out that whoever translated "pin" as 'emit an odor' was closest to the same word in related languages. The word actually means 'to fart': CROW p?a ~ p?pia ?fart?, HIDATSA p?(h) ~ p?a ?fart?,MANDAN p?h ?break wind?, WINNEBAGO w??? ?break wind?, and finally TUTELO lakap??? ?smell, emit an odor? from the Dorsey slip file. There you have it. All three of our 'pi' words were pronounced differently, but the 'smell' word is the intransitive verb 'to smell', as in 'to stink', so it is probably not the term you want to use for 'a smell'. So in summary, we have: phi 'to be good' pi 'desiderative mode' pin 'to smell, give off an odor' (probably really meant 'fart', but those fellows a century ago were too polite to say so.) Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Mon May 27 19:59:32 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:59:32 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBE93@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Looking at this again after reviewing the three "pi" words, I'd say that "pi" here would be the 'good' term. There would be no actual word for 'smell' in the sentence. It would read "sweetgrass causes my heart to feel good." Something very close to that. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin at KU.EDU] Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi I'd say that's getting awfully close. There are places where we just don't have enough detailed knowledge such as the uses of the definite article in Tutelo, but this looks pretty close to me. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi The correct conjugation of "I love the smell of sweet grass" is "Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi win-yantoste:ke-hiye" ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sun, 5/26/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 6:53 PM Having finally found my Tutelo material, I can now make a few points, I think: I am not sure what the mi- prefix is in your sentence, Scott. It looks like the Tutelo first person singular pronouns are wa- and wiN- (N representing nasality), the latter being the 'dative' form that seems to be used with possession of body parts (Oliverio p. 135). The more I think about your sentence, the more I think using the causative -hiye might be appropriate (Oliverio p. 119), so that the verb part of your sentence would look more like this: wiN-yaNtoste:ke-hiye < wiN- = 1st pers sg pronoun dative; -yaNti = heart; -ste:ke = good; -hiye = causative, thus coming out as literally 'It causes my heart (to be) good.' This would be like Biloxi aNk-yaNdi-phi-ye < aNk- = 1st pers singular pronoun (subject or possessive); -yaNdi = heart; -phi = good (vs. pi = liver); -ye = causative. Biloxi lost the active-patient split of other Siouan languages, so aNk- is the only pronoun for 'I' now used, which is actually cognate with Tutelo waNk-/waN- 1st person plural. Okay, that i- prefix does not show up in Oliverio as a definite article 'the' (Oliverio p. 202). It does, however, show up as an *indefinite* (= English a, an) article suffix -i. According to Oliverio (p. 202) the Tutelo *definite* articles are -ki(N) or -se. The former agrees with Lakota -kiN and the latter I believe is more of an emphatic definite article agreeing with Biloxi -yaN and -di on nouns. (So, Tutelo yaNti-ki(N) 'the heart' vs. yaNti-i 'a heart' (?); not sure if that last would combine into a long vowel -i: or would remain separate). Hope this helps. Dave On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Scott, Yes, the word ?the? is what we have in mind when we talk about the ?definite article?. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that ?the? does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language?s logical paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it?s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too much about abstract universal grammatical classifications. In any case, I don?t think you should need ?articles? of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don?t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows: [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. In English, we are required to use ?the? a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be [The smell of the sweetgrass], with both ?smell? and ?sweetgrass? getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying ?articles? are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. ?The smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night? is something specific, and might take an ?article?. ?The smell of sweetgrass? is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as: [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love]. As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for ?of? in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses ?of? in subtly different ways too. In this case, our logic makes ?smell? something possessed by ?sweetgrass?. That?s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn?t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make ?sweetgrass? into a sort of adjective that describes the smell you?re talking about: ?sweetgrass smell?. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as ?the smell of sweetgrass?, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation: [Sweetgrass smell] [I love]. As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for ?sweetgrass? by simply translating ?sweet? and ?grass?, the order will be to stick the ?adjective? (stative verb) ?sweet? after the noun, ?grass?, which it describes. Hence, English ?sweetgrass? in Siouan would be ?grass-sweet?: [Grass-sweet smell] [I love]. Next, you need to know how to say ?I love it?. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb ?love?. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply look up the verb ?love? and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in ?Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.? Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, ?love? and ?like? formulations tend to be a little more hairy, typically something like ?It is good to me?, or ?It is good in my heart?. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don?t make the distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do. Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call ?emphatic pronouns?. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word ?I?, which is what I suspect your ?mi? word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else. Compare: I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I?m just telling you about myself and what I like.) *I* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we?ve been discussing, who doesn?t.) If you use ?mi? in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the ?mi? and just figure out how to say ?I love it? about an odor. At this point, we have: [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love]. where the ?I? is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for ?love?, not a separate word by itself. Now we just have to plug in the right translations. It looks like you have three possible words for ?grass?: sokta:ki mukta:ki oto: Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio?s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from the other direction. Bob says that oto: means ?to be blue or green?. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ?grass? in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say ?greenery?? Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do ?so?, ?mu? and ?kta:ki? mean? Meuse?s/Dorsey?s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested: sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ?sweetgrass? ? Then if we are using ?pi? to mean ?smell?, we would have: sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ?sweetgrass smell?, or ?the smell of sweetgrass?. The problem here is that ?smell? in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely ?pi? is a verb in Tutelo. Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave?s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly bad.) The most salient word for ?smell? is ?hi?, and I?m wondering if that isn?t cognate to Tutelo ?pi?? If ?pi? is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love]. might mean ?I love to smell sweetgrass.? rather than ?I love the smell of sweetgrass.? Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won?t affect the end-user. Bob has a good breakdown of ?love? as ya?t-o-steke = ?heart-in-good?, or ?is good in one?s heart? Biloxi has a comparable word: ki-ya?di-pi = ?to-one?s-heart-good?, ?is good to one?s heart?, or ?be satisfied (from eating)? This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker ?ki?: ?ki-ya?di-pi = ?I am satisfied? So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don?t we try: Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ?ki-ya?t-osteke. I?ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I?m sure Tutelo doesn?t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-) Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck in all your work! All the best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Collins Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Here is what Meuse had for -i : "-i, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), ?a, an, the?. Also -y. Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling ?-y? following some vowels is purely aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by final -n, -n?, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ?broken? dipthong similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ?broken dipthong?; exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18. Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages. The word "the" is a definite article correct? Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges: http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328 However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it. Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass ? Sunktagi" Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete. Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing. My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere. Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. > wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM I agree with Willem and Dave that we can?t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ?I love the smell of sweetgrass? would not contain an equivalent for ?of?, in fact I?m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ?Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good?. And actually, the words translated ?love? in the literature are a compound of ya?t-?heart?, o- ?in it?, and steke ?good?. I?ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It?s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples. I don?t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don?t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word for ?onion? in Kansa and Osage. I don?t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread. The Tutelo word ?oto:? just means ?to be blue or green?. In that sense it probably wouldn?t be used for ?grass' by itself.. So I don?t know what to do about trying to translate ?sweetgrass?. I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the', and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi Verb at end of sentence Adjectives follow nouns Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb I love the smell of sweetgrass. I = mi (subject/noun) Love = yato-ste:kE (verb) The = i- (definite article) Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as ?se after the word) (adjective) Of = qekego (preposition) Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun) My final conjugation: I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) Is this all correct? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 27 20:28:42 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 13:28:42 -0700 Subject: Various "pi" terms. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBEEF@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I'm glad you cleared that up on the various "pi" usages and meanings. I definitely wouldn't want to go around saying I love the farts of sweetgrass. ? ? On my request to cross post, thank you for agreeing to it. My intent is only to progress the understanding of Tutelo-Saponi and find everyones input her valuable in that regard. I did have some contact with Meuse for a short time, but I'm not in contact with him at present nor is he involved with the Tutelo-Saponi Language page on Facebook as yet. I do have Lawrence Dunmore on the page and hopefully he will interact in the discussions there. I think I could get Meuse involved though at some piont. The more people that are woking on it, and can get together to bang out all the details, the closer we'll get to standardization. ? One of the things there is disagreement on is the spelling system. Some think that the small letter next to the regular letters is too confusing while others feel that double and triple lettering is confusing. Lawrence uses the double and triple lettering method which I tend to find?more complicated than the linguist version with the apsirations and?dipthongs and such. I'm leaning towards phonetic spellings with the usage of semicolons and dashes like Oliverio. However is easiest for laypersons to learn it. I'm sure there will not be easy answers and I'm sure we will all have to bend and comprimise in order to reach agreement on the best approaches. ?? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: From: Rankin, Robert L. Subject: Re: Various "pi" terms. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 2:54 PM #yiv491479619 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} This email needs to be viewed as an HTML file so the raised symbols will display correctly. > Also another question regarding "pi". ? > Oliverio has "pi: good" "stative V" piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio I think, after thinking about it, that "pi" meaning 'good' should have the aspirated "ph"? Desiderative mode should have the unaspirated "p". In other words, they sound different. ? > "-pi desiderative mode" "V suffix" "bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)" "Ofo: -be 'future' " "maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' " > "pi:kha good, fine" "V" "ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" I think it should be "phikha" in Oliverio's spelling.? "phikha" in my spelling here. > "pi smell" "V" "la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)" "see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha: 'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio It looks to me as though 'smell' has a nasal vowel and is therefore different in pronunciation from the other two entries, above. It would be "pin". ? It turns out to be instructive to look at 'smell' is some of the other Siouan languages.? I think it turns out that whoever translated "pin" as 'emit an odor' was closest to the same word in related languages.? The word actually means 'to fart': CROW p?a ~ p?pia ?fart?, HIDATSA p?(h) ~ p?a ?fart?,MANDAN p?h ?break wind?,? WINNEBAGO w??? ?break wind?, and finally TUTELO? lakap??? ?smell, emit an odor? from the Dorsey slip file.? There you have it.? All three of our 'pi' words were pronounced differently, but the 'smell' word is the intransitive verb 'to smell', as in 'to stink', so it is probably not the term you want to use for 'a smell'.? So in summary, we have: phi 'to be good' pi? 'desiderative mode' pin 'to smell, give off an odor' (probably really meant 'fart', but those fellows a century ago were too?polite to say so.) Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon May 27 20:30:08 2013 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:30:08 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6236CBF1A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: ? As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker. Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ?t-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. t?-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? Thanks, Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Tue May 28 03:02:33 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:02:33 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEB4D@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: ? Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM ?? As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same.? For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also.? That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago.? For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker.? Question here.? How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS?? I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ?t-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. t?-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw.? Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? ? Thanks, Rory ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue May 28 03:25:28 2013 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 22:25:28 -0500 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <1369710153.20655.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oliverio (p. 269) has pi:lahuk, as one word. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Scott Collins wrote: > > Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi? > > > > > > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > --- On *Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson * wrote: > > > From: Rory Larson > > Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM > > > ? As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same. For > example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost > certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written > phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the > unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers > from a century ago. For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost > certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the > speaker. > > Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in > Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. > post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? I had > understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ?t-) had shifted > forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. t?-) in Dakotan, had stayed > the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and > Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and > Southeastern? > > > > Thanks, > > Rory > > > > > > -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Tue May 28 03:57:56 2013 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 20:57:56 -0700 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pi:lahuk for clearifying that. ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, David Kaufman wrote: From: David Kaufman Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 10:25 PM Oliverio (p. 269) has pi:lahuk, as one word. Dave On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Scott Collins wrote: ? Is thank you "huk pila" or "pila huk" in Tutelo-Saponi? ? ? ? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Rory Larson wrote: From: Rory Larson Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 3:30 PM ?? As for the several "pi" words, they may not all be the same.? For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also.? That means it should be written phonemically /phi:/, whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago.? For example, the 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unaspirated and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker.? Question here.? How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS?? I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ?t-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. t?-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw.? Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? ? Thanks, Rory ? ? -- David Kaufman, Ph.C. University of Kansas Linguistic Anthropology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue May 28 22:02:40 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:02:40 +0000 Subject: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi In-Reply-To: <3F809074BD07B04283173B6B8AE833C8427FEB4D@BL2PRD0810MB349.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: > Question here. How does the unaspirated vs. aspirated distinction in Southeastern square with the unaspirated vs. pre-aspirated vs. post-aspirated trichotomy that I thought was established for MVS? It is indeed established on the basis of cognates and synchronic alternations in MVS. You end up having to reconstruct C, hC and Ch sets. > I had understood from long ago that pre-aspiration (e.g. ?t-) had shifted forward to merge with post-aspiration (e.g. t?-) in Dakotan, had stayed the same in Osage, and had changed to tense (e.g. tt) in Omaha, Ponka and Kaw. Was there not this three-way distinction in Proto-Siouan and Southeastern? Proto-Siouan, yes, but we simply don't have good enough transcriptions to be sure of OVS. I've shown in a paper that Biloxi definitely had at least two series. Ofo had post-aspirates fide Swanton's transcription. Of all the linguists and amateurs who transcribed Tutelo no one was perceptive enough to transcribe aspiration until Edward Sapir wrote down a page or so worth of words and a couple of sentences in the early 20th century. He transcribed both vowel length and aspiration right off the bat, but his sample is very small. Aspiration followed certain voiceless stops. We can infer its presence further from the fact that some p's, t's and k's are always written voiceless, by every transcriber, while others vary with b, d, and g. We assume these latter were unaspirated. OVS aspiration insofar as we understand it at all, seems to have a slightly different distribution than in MVS. It seems to be linked to accent syncronically more than in MVS, where the link was broken early. This tends to be confirmed by Sapir for Tutelo, who transcribed 'hot' as kathe rather than the expected khate. This could have simply been a mistake, of course. There are a scattering of hC transcriptions in Hale and perhaps one or two others, but they remain mysterious. It's a great pity that we didn't realize there were still at least three fluent Tutelo speakers on Six Nations into the 1970s. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Tue May 28 23:32:42 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:32:42 +0000 Subject: Various "pi" terms. In-Reply-To: <1369686522.66788.YahooMailClassic@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > One of the things there is disagreement on is the spelling system. Some think that the small letter next to the regular letters is too confusing while others feel that double and triple lettering is confusing. Lawrence uses the double and triple lettering method which I tend to find more complicated than the linguist version with the apsirations and dipthongs and such. I'm leaning towards phonetic spellings with the usage of semicolons and dashes like Oliverio. However is easiest for laypersons to learn it. I'm sure there will not be easy answers and I'm sure we will all have to bend and comprimise in order to reach agreement on the best approaches. I hope you don't get into the situation Dakotanists find themselves in. There are comprehensive writing systems numbering well into the teens and little agreement. Schools and even individual teachers preach their own systems. And it's not even that any particular one of them is bad. For the most part they all work. It's just that there is so little in the way of a standard. I understand the folks who find ph, th, kh etc.or an, in, un a bit confusing, but I can't really sympathize with them. As I said before, if you want to learn, say, Russian you simply learn the Russian alphabet. You don't whine about it and say it's "confusing". Trust me, it's the easiest part of the language and you learn it the very first day of class. A handful of new symbols shouldn't deter people who want to learn Tutelo. It's simply the case that there are a few sounds in Tutelo that aren't in English. If that confuses people, they aren't studying hard enough. That said, you're not tied to any particular symbol set. The guttural sound that linguists write with x can be spelled with "x" or "q" or "hh" "?", "?" or & and so forth. Same for nasal vowels. For nasal "a" you can use "?", or "?", or "an", or "a?" or anything else. The main thing is to be consistent. And I guess it would be a good idea to use Oliverio's system IF everybody is going to use her work as a reference. Likewise it would be best to use Meuse if folks want to use him as their source. You get the idea. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: