From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:50:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:50:11 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. Message-ID: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” > So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tutelo CLASSIFICATION.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 329935 bytes Desc: Tutelo CLASSIFICATION.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:57:48 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:57:48 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: The first line of my comment in the immediately preceding email should read: The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakhan 'snake' is areal. instead of "The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal." One of these years I'll learn to type. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 21:13:26 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 21:13:26 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox… It’s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:50 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” > So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:09:50 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:09:50 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox… It’s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Nov 6 02:33:49 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 02:33:49 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CCA9@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: thanks, Bob! Actually, I only have the old print-out version of the Comparative Dictionary that you made for Louanna and me in the early 90's. How would I go about getting the recent real thing? There may be others on the List who also would enjoy the wealth of data there… Jill On Nov 1, 2013, at 5:09 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox… It’s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Nov 6 03:59:57 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 21:59:57 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <21D3F88A-E671-4EB3-8194-BC99ECB1BFA2@mssu.edu> Message-ID: Same here. I'm on the lookout for any cognate sources so I can compare them to Otoe-Missouria and the Comparative Siouan Dictionary sounds like a great place to start. So any suggestions (digital or print) would be greatly appreciated. Jill, yea, I know that the "waxo-" and "waka-" is a stretch. It was something that crossed my mind since I've seen "x" and "k" sometimes interchanged for some words (k'o/x'o (thunder) and nax'ų/nak'ų (listen/hear)). I figured it was worth looking into :). The term "waxobrį" has been a mystery to me (no pun intended). I've been told by a tribal member that waxobrį refers to a person and waxoñitą refers to "non-people" (I'm not sure animate vs inanimate is necessarily accurate here) such as objects, buildings, etc. However that explanation doesn't match up with all of the names with waxoñitą in them. When you mention "Mr. FawFaw, are you talking about William (Bill) FawFaw? I haven't seen waxobrį for his name. Just Wanashe/Wanase (Take Away/Take Away from Them). Where is that name listed? I'm very curious to see it (naturally!). Speaking of which (yet another of my tangents!), Maximilian lists "wanase" (uå-nåssé) as meaning "encircle" or "shut up" which has me wondering about the historical figure "The Surrounder" or "The Encircler" (I believe he had the nickname "The Bullet" (La Balla??)) which is spelled (among several ways) "Waronesan." I'm wondering if these terms are related somehow. Perhaps the "ro-" might be "by hand" (ru-) but then you'd have to flip the e and a vowels to "force the fit" and having to do that raises a red flag in my mind. But still, those translations of "encircle" has me curious about these terms. Ok, back on track... Bob, I'm trying to digest all of that cognate information you posted LOL. At this point nothing jumps out at me beyond what "might be related" which is incredibly subjective on my part. Perhaps given time when my mind has had some time to work on this a bit more a more reliable pattern will emerge in my mind. Time will tell. But in the meantime, that gron/grongron is going to bug the heck out of me :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. thanks, Bob! Actually, I only have the old print-out version of the Comparative Dictionary that you made for Louanna and me in the early 90's. How would I go about getting the recent real thing? There may be others on the List who also would enjoy the wealth of data there… Jill On Nov 1, 2013, at 5:09 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob _____ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox… It’s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Nov 10 17:10:20 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:10:20 +0000 Subject: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Having worked my way through the Dorsey Quapaw and Kansa (Kaw) lexical files over a period of 30 or so years, let me second your statement that this is a really fantastic opportunity for some young scholar looking for a research topic. The dictionaries I've worked with are all less than a fifth the size and scope of the Dorsey Omaha and Ponca database. There are several lifetimes of research subjects here. Mark and Catherine's project(s) are exceptionally important for Siouan linguistics generally and Dhegiha linguistics in particular. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Mark Awakuni-Swetland [mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Seeking a grad student Aloha all, Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Catherin Rudin CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. University of Nebraska-Lincoln Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Sun Nov 10 16:36:18 2013 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:36:18 +0000 Subject: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CCA9@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Aloha all, Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Catherin Rudin CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. University of Nebraska-Lincoln Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Nov 10 19:30:19 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:30:19 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's fantastic! Had this come up a few years ago I'd have volunteered myself. I'd love to offer some sort of assistance if you need any. Bryan > > > Aloha all, > > > Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. > > We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. > > > We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. > > > This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. > > > We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. > > > Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. > > > We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. > > > Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. > > > Thanks > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > > > Catherin Rudin > > CaRudin1 at wsc.edu > > > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > Anthropology/Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > Oldfather Hall 841 > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Mon Nov 11 04:18:56 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:18:56 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: Seeking a grad student Message-ID: Gosh, I'm sure we could find something for you to do, Bryan! Let's talk off-list sometime if you're serious. C >>> Bryan James Gordon 11/10/13 1:54 PM >>> That's fantastic! Had this come up a few years ago I'd have volunteered myself. I'd love to offer some sort of assistance if you need any. Bryan > > > Aloha all, > > > Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. > > We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. > > > We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. > > > This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. > > > We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. > > > Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. > > > We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. > > > Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. > > > Thanks > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > > > Catherin Rudin > > CaRudin1 at wsc.edu > > > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > Anthropology/Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > Oldfather Hall 841 > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Wed Nov 13 17:17:53 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:17:53 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all (and especially Randy), A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've attached a photo. I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's what prompted his consultant to tell it. Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with glen[?] eye." If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could share. Best, Saul On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed > to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! > All best, > Saul > > > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks > wrote: > >> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he >> and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware >> of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, >> sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in >> exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough >> on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, >> information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my >> current delays. >> >> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure >> will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the >> interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two >> scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. >> >> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous >> time in DC. >> Jimm >> >> *From:* Greer, Jill >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the >> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get >> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >> didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. >> >> >> >> Jill >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> >> Yes, Jill! >> >> Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future >> rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost >> Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >> >> >> >> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >> draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >> give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >> >> >> >> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >> >> >> >> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >> Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >> >> >> >> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >> >> Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun >> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme >> gigrúnje taho. >> >> >> >> Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda >> >> Jimm >> >> >> >> *From:* Greer, Jill >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> >> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >> >> >> >> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was >> SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - >> it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jill Greer >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> Hello, >> >> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the >> American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >> >> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >> Oklahoma: >> >> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >> >> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >> it. >> >> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It >> is simply: >> >> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ >> glelábliⁿ." >> >> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >> across a Siouan one. >> >> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested >> to hear about them. >> >> Be well, >> Saul >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lowie tongue twister_2.31 close up.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1804954 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 18:53:33 2013 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:53:33 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Saul. I'll need to play with this for a while. I'll get back to you. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Saul Schwartz To: SIOUAN Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 10:18 am Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello all (and especially Randy), A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've attached a photo. I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's what prompted his consultant to tell it. Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with glen[?] eye." If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could share. Best, Saul On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! All best, Saul On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my current delays. But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous time in DC. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme gigrúnje taho. Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply: kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ glelábliⁿ." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 13 22:32:58 2013 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:32:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Saul, In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows: 1 TSIPAPU*':C 2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL 3 NOUN 4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE 5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN) 11 +P. 164 I believe the source for that transcription was this book: http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741 Here is the particular page in the book: http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello all (and especially Randy), > > A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and > found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. > I've attached a photo. > > I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was > collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included > -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister > begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's > what prompted his consultant to tell it. > > Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone > [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with > glen[?] eye." > > If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my > colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could > share. > > Best, > Saul > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed >> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! >> All best, >> Saul >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks < >> jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he >>> and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware >>> of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, >>> sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in >>> exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough >>> on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, >>> information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my >>> current delays. >>> >>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure >>> will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the >>> interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two >>> scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. >>> >>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an >>> adventurous time in DC. >>> Jimm >>> >>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the >>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get >>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >>> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >>> didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jill >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, Jill! >>> >>> Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future >>> rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >>> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost >>> Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >>> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >>> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >>> draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >>> give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >>> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >>> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >>> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >>> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >>> Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >>> >>> >>> >>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >>> >>> Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun >>> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme >>> gigrúnje taho. >>> >>> >>> >>> Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda >>> >>> Jimm >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >>> >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >>> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >>> >>> >>> >>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was >>> SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - >>> it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jill Greer >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the >>> American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >>> >>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >>> Oklahoma: >>> >>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >>> >>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >>> it. >>> >>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It >>> is simply: >>> >>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ >>> glelábliⁿ." >>> >>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >>> across a Siouan one. >>> >>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested >>> to hear about them. >>> >>> Be well, >>> Saul >>> >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >>> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >>> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >>> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >>> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >>> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >>> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >>> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >>> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Fri Nov 15 18:04:58 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:04:58 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, excellent detective work, George! Thank you for tracking that down. Maybe it's just the way Lowie wrote it in his notes, but it almost reads like a couplet: two lines of 13 syllables, the first ending in bacóritsi'tse and the second in rɛǝxe. It strikes me as somewhat different in its poetic aspects than the Chiwere 8,888 example with all the gl- sequences or the Crow Nez Perce example, which also has a dense concentration of similar sounds. I wonder what a native speaker's take on it would be in terms of what makes it tricky to say or otherwise aesthetically pleasing/amusing. In any case, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it, Randy. All best, Saul On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:32 PM, George Wilmes wrote: > Hi Saul, > > In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something > very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows: > > 1 TSIPAPU*':C > 2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL > 3 NOUN > 4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA > RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE > 5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES > OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE > (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN) > 11 +P. 164 > > I believe the source for that transcription was this book: > > http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741 > > Here is the particular page in the book: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false > > > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Hello all (and especially Randy), >> >> A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and >> found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. >> I've attached a photo. >> >> I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was >> collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included >> -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister >> begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's >> what prompted his consultant to tell it. >> >> Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone >> [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with >> glen[?] eye." >> >> If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my >> colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could >> share. >> >> Best, >> Saul >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: >> >>> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed >>> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! >>> All best, >>> Saul >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks < >>> jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer >>>> he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am >>>> aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the >>>> functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who >>>> gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I >>>> have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more >>>> instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing >>>> undue delays to my current delays. >>>> >>>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you >>>> sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all >>>> the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final >>>> two scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all done. >>>> >>>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an >>>> adventurous time in DC. >>>> Jimm >>>> >>>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ll do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >>>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn’t it the >>>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I’m hoping to get >>>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >>>> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >>>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >>>> didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material…. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jill >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, Jill! >>>> >>>> Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future >>>> rather than the indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >>>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >>>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >>>> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >>>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >>>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost >>>> Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >>>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >>>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >>>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >>>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >>>> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >>>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >>>> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >>>> draw the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >>>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >>>> give attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >>>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >>>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >>>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >>>> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >>>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >>>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >>>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >>>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >>>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >>>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >>>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >>>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >>>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >>>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >>>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >>>> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >>>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >>>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >>>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >>>> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >>>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >>>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >>>> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >>>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >>>> Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >>>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >>>> >>>> Ix^án swíhsje ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun >>>> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme >>>> gigrúnje taho. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gasunhsji hadádana ke. Tórigunda >>>> >>>> Jimm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >>>> >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >>>> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >>>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze >>>> was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here >>>> - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jill Greer >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >>>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in >>>> the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >>>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >>>> >>>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >>>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >>>> Oklahoma: >>>> >>>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >>>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >>>> >>>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >>>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >>>> it. >>>> >>>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >>>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It >>>> is simply: >>>> >>>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ >>>> glelábliⁿ." >>>> >>>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >>>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >>>> across a Siouan one. >>>> >>>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be >>>> interested to hear about them. >>>> >>>> Be well, >>>> Saul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is >>>> intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable >>>> by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>>> >>>> >>>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is >>>> intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable >>>> by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 19 20:01:04 2013 From: calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM (Cal Thunder Hawk) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:01:04 -0500 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > *Subject:* > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I’m thinking > about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan > of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he > does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to > be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that > conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means > mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – > 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This > name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as > one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for > god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” > > > > > So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy > and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey > mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” > rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it > just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other > instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate > sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term > “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). > > > > Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of > the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”. > > > > The relationship between *wakhan *'holy' and *wakan *'snake' is areal. > In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout > most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely > its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) > 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from > around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be > thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change > in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. > These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there > was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to > identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be > archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk > about those. > > > > I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert > L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David > Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., *Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert,* Winnipeg: > University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Tue Nov 19 20:54:30 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:54:30 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not sure if this will help but I've come across a term that MAY apply here. Rev. Moses Merrill wrote Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (spelled nowadays as Wadota Wawagaxe Etawe Yąwe Waxonyitą) in 1834 which literally translates as "Otoe book his/her/(their) song sacred" or as Merrill puts it, "Otoe Hymn Book." There are 13 hymns in this book, 10 of which are in his book First Ioway Reading Book from the following year. This second book has these hymns translated. However, there are 3 hymns from the first book that aren't translated. The first of these he names "Togkaka" which I translate as "Liar(s)." The hymn has such lines as: Wd kun tl tog ka wo jif ik (spelled now as "Wakąnda tothke woshinge ke") - God hates liars. Another line reads: Tog kaj ko new e ra (spelled now as "Tothke skunyiwi re") - (You-all) do not lie. Your "kankan" portion of "wakankan s'a" had me think of the "kaka" that Merrill had in his song title "Togkaka." I don't know what the "kaka" (pronounced "keke") is doing here exactly. Dorsey has "tothke" as lie but since Merrill doesn't differentiate between g and k in his books, I don't know if the second "ke" is actually "-ge" which can refer to a quality or intrinsic value of something (IE "tothkege" = intrinsic value of someone who lies to mean a liar???) or if there is some reduplication going on here. Now let's take this a step further...is the first "thke" used to refer to "like" or "similar" to something (I've often wondered if the suffix -thke (like/similar) and -ge (quality of) are related)? And if so, what would the "to-" be? A contracted form of something? What is a "liar" like or similar to? Or is "tothke" just more or less its own word? Like I said, this is only based on the "kaka" (again, pronounced "keke" (kege??)) from Merrill's term "Togkaka." I have no idea if it might be related to your "waKANKAN s'a." At any rate, I hope this helps (even just a little :) ). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cal Thunder Hawk Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” > So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:50:11 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:50:11 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. Message-ID: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I?m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;? And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? > So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.? Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tutelo CLASSIFICATION.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 329935 bytes Desc: Tutelo CLASSIFICATION.pdf URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:57:48 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:57:48 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: The first line of my comment in the immediately preceding email should read: The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakhan 'snake' is areal. instead of "The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal." One of these years I'll learn to type. Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 21:13:26 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 21:13:26 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox? It?s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L. Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:50 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I?m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;? And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? > So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.? Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:09:50 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:09:50 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox? It?s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Nov 6 02:33:49 2013 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 02:33:49 +0000 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CCA9@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: thanks, Bob! Actually, I only have the old print-out version of the Comparative Dictionary that you made for Louanna and me in the early 90's. How would I go about getting the recent real thing? There may be others on the List who also would enjoy the wealth of data there? Jill On Nov 1, 2013, at 5:09 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." > wrote: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox? It?s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Nov 6 03:59:57 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 21:59:57 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <21D3F88A-E671-4EB3-8194-BC99ECB1BFA2@mssu.edu> Message-ID: Same here. I'm on the lookout for any cognate sources so I can compare them to Otoe-Missouria and the Comparative Siouan Dictionary sounds like a great place to start. So any suggestions (digital or print) would be greatly appreciated. Jill, yea, I know that the "waxo-" and "waka-" is a stretch. It was something that crossed my mind since I've seen "x" and "k" sometimes interchanged for some words (k'o/x'o (thunder) and nax'?/nak'? (listen/hear)). I figured it was worth looking into :). The term "waxobr?" has been a mystery to me (no pun intended). I've been told by a tribal member that waxobr? refers to a person and waxo?it? refers to "non-people" (I'm not sure animate vs inanimate is necessarily accurate here) such as objects, buildings, etc. However that explanation doesn't match up with all of the names with waxo?it? in them. When you mention "Mr. FawFaw, are you talking about William (Bill) FawFaw? I haven't seen waxobr? for his name. Just Wanashe/Wanase (Take Away/Take Away from Them). Where is that name listed? I'm very curious to see it (naturally!). Speaking of which (yet another of my tangents!), Maximilian lists "wanase" (u?-n?ss?) as meaning "encircle" or "shut up" which has me wondering about the historical figure "The Surrounder" or "The Encircler" (I believe he had the nickname "The Bullet" (La Balla??)) which is spelled (among several ways) "Waronesan." I'm wondering if these terms are related somehow. Perhaps the "ro-" might be "by hand" (ru-) but then you'd have to flip the e and a vowels to "force the fit" and having to do that raises a red flag in my mind. But still, those translations of "encircle" has me curious about these terms. Ok, back on track... Bob, I'm trying to digest all of that cognate information you posted LOL. At this point nothing jumps out at me beyond what "might be related" which is incredibly subjective on my part. Perhaps given time when my mind has had some time to work on this a bit more a more reliable pattern will emerge in my mind. Time will tell. But in the meantime, that gron/grongron is going to bug the heck out of me :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. thanks, Bob! Actually, I only have the old print-out version of the Comparative Dictionary that you made for Louanna and me in the early 90's. How would I go about getting the recent real thing? There may be others on the List who also would enjoy the wealth of data there? Jill On Nov 1, 2013, at 5:09 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." wrote: Yes, waxobriN is a derived form shared with Mandan and some other languages. The root is *xo:pe 'sacred'. *Waxope 'something sacred' plus *riN 'be of class membership'. Most Siouanists received a copy of the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. If you have one, you can check all these forms out by looking up the various entries for SACRED. There are several terms under this meaning and they will explain much. Jill is right, These changes in meaning likely relate to the interesting mounds found in formerly Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking regions along the Ohio River. This is probably verified by the fact that there is an apparent Tutelo 'snake' cognate, "wageni", from the far-eastern end of the area. You can see this in the appropriate cognate set. Please feel free to consult the dictionary. Its use is not limited to me, you know. David's NSF and NEH grants, all the collections and editorial work were intended for all of us to use. Enjoy. Bob _____ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Greer, Jill [Greer-J at MSSU.EDU] Hi, All! Sky, there is also a waxobriN I believe, (stress on second syllable) meaning sacred/mysterious/even frightening in connotation, and the name of the famous Mr. FawFaw who had started the 19th century Dance Society/religion came up in discussions of the meaning of this word, since he was a rather unique and spiritually powerful person. Trying to relate a waxo- to wakhaN seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I would think that there could be many roots that relate to different senses of being holy or sacred, rather than trying to relate them phonologically. That being said, it does make me wonder if the sound symbolism of stops in words related to color and noise might also apply to the spiritual realm. Has anyone found a parallel for that semantic domain in any other Siouan languages? Think also about concepts like awe and awe-full >awful in English, great snakes do inspire awe (fear, dread, etc) in me, and according to some recent scientific studies, there may be a genetic component to that fear! Venomous snake bites can still cause permanent nerve damage today, even when people have anti-venom available. Relating to what Bob said about the Otoe, Ioway, and Sac & Fox? It?s not so far to the Great Serpent Mound of Adena/Hopewell times in Ohio comes to mind, as well as rattlesnake iconography in the SE ceremonial artifacts. War bundles might include rattlesnake rattles, too. (Remember the NMAI, Sky?). Interesting stuff! Jill This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rankin at KU.EDU Sun Nov 10 17:10:20 2013 From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:10:20 +0000 Subject: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Having worked my way through the Dorsey Quapaw and Kansa (Kaw) lexical files over a period of 30 or so years, let me second your statement that this is a really fantastic opportunity for some young scholar looking for a research topic. The dictionaries I've worked with are all less than a fifth the size and scope of the Dorsey Omaha and Ponca database. There are several lifetimes of research subjects here. Mark and Catherine's project(s) are exceptionally important for Siouan linguistics generally and Dhegiha linguistics in particular. Bob ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Mark Awakuni-Swetland [mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:36 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Seeking a grad student Aloha all, Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Catherin Rudin CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. University of Nebraska-Lincoln Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Sun Nov 10 16:36:18 2013 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:36:18 +0000 Subject: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CCA9@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: Aloha all, Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. Thanks Mark Awakuni-Swetland mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu Catherin Rudin CaRudin1 at wsc.edu Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. University of Nebraska-Lincoln Anthropology/Ethnic Studies Native American Studies Program Liaison Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Nov 10 19:30:19 2013 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:30:19 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Seeking a grad student In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's fantastic! Had this come up a few years ago I'd have volunteered myself. I'd love to offer some sort of assistance if you need any. Bryan > > > Aloha all, > > > Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. > > We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. > > > We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. > > > This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. > > > We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. > > > Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. > > > We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. > > > Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. > > > Thanks > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > > > Catherin Rudin > > CaRudin1 at wsc.edu > > > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > Anthropology/Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > Oldfather Hall 841 > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Mon Nov 11 04:18:56 2013 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:18:56 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: Seeking a grad student Message-ID: Gosh, I'm sure we could find something for you to do, Bryan! Let's talk off-list sometime if you're serious. C >>> Bryan James Gordon 11/10/13 1:54 PM >>> That's fantastic! Had this come up a few years ago I'd have volunteered myself. I'd love to offer some sort of assistance if you need any. Bryan > > > Aloha all, > > > Sitting in the OPDD project office with Catherine Rudin. > > We are brainstorming the next steps in the future of the Omaha and Ponca Digital Dictionary project. > > > We are contemplating applying for one or more smaller grants targeting work on 1) field work/field checking the ~15k lexemes in JOD's slip file, and 2) performing morphological analysis on the entries. > > > This is a preliminary call for participants in this work. > > > We are looking for some help especially on Goal #2. > > > Does anyone on the list know of a graduate student in linguistics looking for a fantastic dissertation opportunity? Knowledge of Siouan languages would be a plus. > > > We would want to connect with interested candidates and have the ability to write him/her into the grant application. > > > Please circulate this inquiry to your students and encourage them to contact me and Co-PI Catherine. > > > Thanks > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > > > Catherin Rudin > > CaRudin1 at wsc.edu > > > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > University of Nebraska-Lincoln > Anthropology/Ethnic Studies > Native American Studies Program Liaison > Oldfather Hall 841 > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > "TTenixa uqpathe egoN" a winisi akHa. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Wed Nov 13 17:17:53 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:17:53 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all (and especially Randy), A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've attached a photo. I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's what prompted his consultant to tell it. Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with glen[?] eye." If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could share. Best, Saul On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed > to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! > All best, > Saul > > > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks > wrote: > >> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he >> and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware >> of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, >> sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in >> exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough >> on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, >> information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my >> current delays. >> >> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure >> will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the >> interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two >> scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. >> >> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous >> time in DC. >> Jimm >> >> *From:* Greer, Jill >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the >> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get >> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >> didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. >> >> >> >> Jill >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> >> Yes, Jill! >> >> Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future >> rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost >> Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >> >> >> >> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >> draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >> give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >> >> >> >> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >> >> >> >> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >> B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >> >> >> >> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >> >> Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun >> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me >> gigr?nje taho. >> >> >> >> Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda >> >> Jimm >> >> >> >> *From:* Greer, Jill >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> >> >> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >> >> >> >> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was >> SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - >> it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jill Greer >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >> >> Hello, >> >> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the >> American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >> >> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >> Oklahoma: >> >> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >> >> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >> it. >> >> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It >> is simply: >> >> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? >> glel?bli?." >> >> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >> across a Siouan one. >> >> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested >> to hear about them. >> >> Be well, >> Saul >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lowie tongue twister_2.31 close up.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1804954 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 18:53:33 2013 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:53:33 -0500 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Saul. I'll need to play with this for a while. I'll get back to you. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Saul Schwartz To: SIOUAN Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 10:18 am Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello all (and especially Randy), A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've attached a photo. I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's what prompted his consultant to tell it. Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with glen[?] eye." If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could share. Best, Saul On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! All best, Saul On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my current delays. But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous time in DC. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Yes, Jill! Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to complete all scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for producing a Hard Copy and distribution. That would be approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within the state educational standards. So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me gigr?nje taho. Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan tongue twisters? Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) Best, Jill Greer From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? Hello, Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, Oklahoma: "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It is simply: k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? glel?bli?." While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come across a Siouan one. If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear about them. Be well, Saul This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Nov 13 22:32:58 2013 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:32:58 -0600 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Saul, In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows: 1 TSIPAPU*':C 2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL 3 NOUN 4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE 5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN) 11 +P. 164 I believe the source for that transcription was this book: http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741 Here is the particular page in the book: http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Hello all (and especially Randy), > > A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and > found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. > I've attached a photo. > > I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was > collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included > -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister > begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's > what prompted his consultant to tell it. > > Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone > [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with > glen[?] eye." > > If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my > colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could > share. > > Best, > Saul > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed >> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! >> All best, >> Saul >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks < >> jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he >>> and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am aware >>> of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions, >>> sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in >>> exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I have enough >>> on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions, >>> information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my >>> current delays. >>> >>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure >>> will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all the >>> interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final two >>> scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. >>> >>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an >>> adventurous time in DC. >>> Jimm >>> >>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the >>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get >>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >>> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >>> didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jill >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, Jill! >>> >>> Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future >>> rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >>> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost >>> Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >>> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >>> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >>> draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >>> give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >>> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >>> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >>> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >>> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >>> B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >>> >>> >>> >>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >>> >>> Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun >>> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me >>> gigr?nje taho. >>> >>> >>> >>> Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda >>> >>> Jimm >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >>> >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >>> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >>> >>> >>> >>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was >>> SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - >>> it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jill Greer >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the >>> American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >>> >>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >>> Oklahoma: >>> >>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >>> >>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >>> it. >>> >>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It >>> is simply: >>> >>> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? >>> glel?bli?." >>> >>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >>> across a Siouan one. >>> >>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested >>> to hear about them. >>> >>> Be well, >>> Saul >>> >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >>> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >>> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >>> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >>> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject >>> to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for >>> the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of >>> the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by >>> law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Fri Nov 15 18:04:58 2013 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:04:58 -0700 Subject: Siouan tongue twisters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, excellent detective work, George! Thank you for tracking that down. Maybe it's just the way Lowie wrote it in his notes, but it almost reads like a couplet: two lines of 13 syllables, the first ending in bac?ritsi'tse and the second in r??xe. It strikes me as somewhat different in its poetic aspects than the Chiwere 8,888 example with all the gl- sequences or the Crow Nez Perce example, which also has a dense concentration of similar sounds. I wonder what a native speaker's take on it would be in terms of what makes it tricky to say or otherwise aesthetically pleasing/amusing. In any case, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it, Randy. All best, Saul On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:32 PM, George Wilmes wrote: > Hi Saul, > > In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something > very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows: > > 1 TSIPAPU*':C > 2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL > 3 NOUN > 4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA > RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE > 5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES > OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE > (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN) > 11 +P. 164 > > I believe the source for that transcription was this book: > > http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741 > > Here is the particular page in the book: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false > > > > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz wrote: > >> Hello all (and especially Randy), >> >> A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and >> found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. >> I've attached a photo. >> >> I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was >> collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included >> -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister >> begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's >> what prompted his consultant to tell it. >> >> Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone >> [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with >> glen[?] eye." >> >> If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my >> colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could >> share. >> >> Best, >> Saul >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz wrote: >> >>> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed >>> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference! >>> All best, >>> Saul >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks < >>> jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer >>>> he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program. I am >>>> aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the >>>> functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student for Saul who >>>> gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like yourself, I >>>> have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more >>>> instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing >>>> undue delays to my current delays. >>>> >>>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you >>>> sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep posted on all >>>> the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down to the final >>>> two scripts of Film III. I think I?ll celebrate when all done. >>>> >>>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an >>>> adventurous time in DC. >>>> Jimm >>>> >>>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> I?ll do my best, Jimm. You?re right, I owe it to those elders. Good >>>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night. Wasn?t it the >>>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year? I?m hoping to get >>>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my >>>> strong suit. Any advice from you all on using ELAN? I also downloaded the >>>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which >>>> didn?t want to let me use any non-Mac material?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jill >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, Jill! >>>> >>>> Do go through ?all my field notes? and doing that in the near future >>>> rather than the indefinite ?whenever.? The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ >>>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are >>>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM >>>> Dictionary. I am including statements, discussions from present day >>>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a >>>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film ?The Lost >>>> Nation: The Ioway? (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film >>>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all >>>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I >>>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a >>>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.* That would be >>>> approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production >>>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time >>>> (my opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs >>>> draw the line. I?ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will >>>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to >>>> give attention to this. I?d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, >>>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of >>>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning >>>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & >>>> lax supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with >>>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and >>>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of >>>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our >>>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile >>>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid >>>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated. I >>>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua >>>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I >>>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in >>>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers >>>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic >>>> achievement among students within the state educational standards. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the >>>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) >>>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be >>>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource >>>> Dictionary. Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below >>>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ >>>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, >>>> but we ALL are busy. It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that >>>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the >>>> B?xoje Jiw?re Native communities, the public domain and Academia. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our >>>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely: >>>> >>>> Ix^?n sw?hsje ke; Ama ch^? t?rigi ?re ke. H?nwegi dag?re^sun >>>> hin^unsdunwi ke. Tanh?da hint?gan Bi m?ngrida d?hahajena ar?chi x?me >>>> gigr?nje taho. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gasunhsji had?dana ke. T?rigunda >>>> >>>> Jimm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Greer, Jill >>>> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM >>>> >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Saul - Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number >>>> 888 - he would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, >>>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze >>>> was SO dead on target soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here >>>> - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jill Greer >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul >>>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU] >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters? >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in >>>> the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon >>>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas. >>>> >>>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating >>>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins, >>>> Oklahoma: >>>> >>>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the >>>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk. >>>> >>>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never >>>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand >>>> it. >>>> >>>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the >>>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can?t say it themselves. It >>>> is simply: >>>> >>>> k?ge glel?bli? gl?bla? h?ya? glel?bli?na? gl?bla? glel?bli? agl?? >>>> glel?bli?." >>>> >>>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and >>>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come >>>> across a Siouan one. >>>> >>>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be >>>> interested to hear about them. >>>> >>>> Be well, >>>> Saul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is >>>> intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable >>>> by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>>> >>>> >>>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is >>>> intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable >>>> by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please >>>> notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 19 20:01:04 2013 From: calthunderhawk at GMAIL.COM (Cal Thunder Hawk) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:01:04 -0500 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62372CBEE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu> Message-ID: I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: > *Subject:* > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I?m thinking > about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan > of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he > does go through a few other possibilities. Still, ?great serpent? seems to > be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that > conclusion. But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means > mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;? And in ?Early Western Travels ? > 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This > name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as > one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for > god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? > > > > > So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy > and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey > mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? > rather than ?great serpent.? Or do they both mean the same thing and it > just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other > instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate > sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term > ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). > > > > Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of > the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?. > > > > The relationship between *wakhan *'holy' and *wakan *'snake' is areal. > In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout > most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely > its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) > 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from > around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be > thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change > in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. > These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there > was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to > identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be > archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk > about those. > > > > I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert > L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David > Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., *Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert,* Winnipeg: > University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Tue Nov 19 20:54:30 2013 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:54:30 -0600 Subject: The two meanings of wakan. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not sure if this will help but I've come across a term that MAY apply here. Rev. Moses Merrill wrote Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (spelled nowadays as Wadota Wawagaxe Etawe Y?we Waxonyit?) in 1834 which literally translates as "Otoe book his/her/(their) song sacred" or as Merrill puts it, "Otoe Hymn Book." There are 13 hymns in this book, 10 of which are in his book First Ioway Reading Book from the following year. This second book has these hymns translated. However, there are 3 hymns from the first book that aren't translated. The first of these he names "Togkaka" which I translate as "Liar(s)." The hymn has such lines as: Wd kun tl tog ka wo jif ik (spelled now as "Wak?nda tothke woshinge ke") - God hates liars. Another line reads: Tog kaj ko new e ra (spelled now as "Tothke skunyiwi re") - (You-all) do not lie. Your "kankan" portion of "wakankan s'a" had me think of the "kaka" that Merrill had in his song title "Togkaka." I don't know what the "kaka" (pronounced "keke") is doing here exactly. Dorsey has "tothke" as lie but since Merrill doesn't differentiate between g and k in his books, I don't know if the second "ke" is actually "-ge" which can refer to a quality or intrinsic value of something (IE "tothkege" = intrinsic value of someone who lies to mean a liar???) or if there is some reduplication going on here. Now let's take this a step further...is the first "thke" used to refer to "like" or "similar" to something (I've often wondered if the suffix -thke (like/similar) and -ge (quality of) are related)? And if so, what would the "to-" be? A contracted form of something? What is a "liar" like or similar to? Or is "tothke" just more or less its own word? Like I said, this is only based on the "kaka" (again, pronounced "keke" (kege??)) from Merrill's term "Togkaka." I have no idea if it might be related to your "waKANKAN s'a." At any rate, I hope this helps (even just a little :) ). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Cal Thunder Hawk Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: The two meanings of wakan. I found "Tutelo Classification-1.pdf" very, very helpful, about "wakan". Thank you. Regarding "wakan", Victor Douville, who teaches at Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Sioux Indian reservation, made the following statement in a 2007 shockwave flash presentation, "Lakota Thought and Philosophy: A Universal View": "The term Wakan is controversially translated as sacred in an all embracing context. It is in a certain context that this term can mean sacred but it cannot be applied to everything because everything would be sacred. Hence, this term means something else, other than wakan, if it is applied to everything. A case in point is the term wakankan s'a (a liar). Wakankan literally means double sacred, if the term is translated as sacred. "Christian interpretation of wakan has stubbornly retained the meaning to be sacred and it has persisted to this day." Also, regarding this word, in the mid-80s, at USD, the Lakhota language teacher there, Robert Bunge (with his informant Seth Noisey), translated "wakan" as "something ancient" as a compound of "wa-" and "kan" (to be old). So, there has been that kind of confusion regarding this particular word. Bunge and Noisey have since died. Several months ago I wrote to Douville with questions about his statements but he has not replied yet. I would deeply appreciate any input about "wakankan s'a" as "a liar" and "wakankan" as "double sacred". Thank you. Cal Thunder Hawk https://www.facebook.com/calthunderhawk On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote: Subject: > Sky wrote: And one more thing while I?m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;? And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? > So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.? Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). Jimm wrote: The (IOM) dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?. The relationship between wakhan 'holy' and wakan 'snake' is areal. In other words, the term means 'holy, sacred, mysterious', etc. throughout most of Mississippi Valley Siouan, Dakotan and Dhegiha, and that was likely its original meaning. The change in meaning to 'snake' (IOM) or (in Omaha) 'water monster' occurred in an area of the old midwest extending from around Ohio in the East to Iowa and Nebraska in the West. This might be thought of as accidental except for the fact that exactly the same change in meaning is found in the Algonquian languages spoken in the same region. These included Shawnee, Kickapoo and Sac-Fox. It seems evident that there was some cultural factor operating in this area that led to identical changes in meaning in both language families. There appear to be archaeological correlates in this area also, but I am not qualified to talk about those. I talk about the terms themselves in: Oliverio, Giulia R.M. and Robert L. Rankin. 2003. On the Subgrouping of Tutelo within Siouan. In David Costa and Blair Rudes, eds., Festschrift in Memory of Frank Siebert, Winnipeg: University of Manitoba. A copy of this paper is attached as a .pdf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: