From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Oct  5 15:20:39 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 16:20:39 +0100
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370CA4A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.162039.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
 


Jan,

Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.

Othúŋwahe ‘town’ is another one of those wanderwoerter that has similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name Tomahitan, which would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make me feel good.  :-)

Bob
 

________________________________
 
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin


Dear all:
 
I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may think. Here are some examples:
 
aspéla (from aspirin)
bébela ‘baby’ from French
khukhúše ‘pig’ from French
kuŋkúŋla  - ‘cucumber’
khamíte ‘committee’
pusíla – ‘cat’
spakéli ‘spaghetti’
 
I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the case of spakéli, aspéla and pusíla, but the other ones are fully standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full list. 
 
I am intrigued by Bob’s comment that othúŋwahe ‘town’ might be borrowing as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz’s materials, but I could be wrong) that the word itázipa ‘bow’ is a loan as well.
 
Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking grandparents Lakotized the children’s English names because they couldn’t pronounce them. For example Delores was called “Čelowiŋ”, Imogene was “Imočila” etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on fauna and flora.
 
As for “mirror” I have always been skeptical about the “mirror glass” etymology because the analyses that involves mní ‘water’ and a possessive or reflexive of ókas’iŋ ‘to peer into’ seem quite convincing and is consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn’t be for the first time.
 
Jan
 
 
 
 
 
From:Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
 
Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree, and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.

Willem

________________________________
 
From:Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
 
Ø  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
 
ØI have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.
 
 
The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears in both Williamson and Riggs:
 
Riggs:
 
                mi-yó-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See mioglasiŋ.
 
                mí-o-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasiŋ.
 
                mni-yó-hda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See mioglasiŋ.
 
Williamson:
 
                mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasiŋ.  Y.  Mniokdasiŋ.  T.  Miyoglasiŋ.
 
Riggs:
 
i-hdí-yo-mda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasiŋ.  See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.
 
a-ó-ka-siŋ,  v.a.  to look into, peep into—aowakasiŋ, aoyakasiŋ, aouŋkasiŋpi.
 
                ó-ka-siŋ,  v.  to look into.  See aokasiŋ, kas’iŋ, and okakiŋ.
 
                ka-s’íŋ, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.
 
The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ókas(‘)iŋ, ‘to look into’.  In its vertitive form óglasiŋ, it should mean ‘to look into at oneself’, which makes very good sense for the meaning of ‘mirror’.  The Yankton and one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the term m(i)ni, ‘water’, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other Santee form shows that ‘oil’, ihdi, could be substituted for ‘water’ to get the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different instrumental prefix—not sure why).  Most likely, native people were perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
 
These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable similarity to “mirrorglass”, and then only because that dialect happens to use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
 
This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.  French seems to have both “miroir” and “glace” as words for ‘mirror’, where English has “mirror” and “looking-glass”.  But was a term like “mirrorglass” actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19th centuries?  I don’t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I think the “coincidence” here may actually illustrate the process of creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
 
 
Cheers,
Rory
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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sat Oct  5 16:08:45 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:08:45 -0500
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <1380986439.31413.YahooMailNeo@web171406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.110845.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon
tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac
tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.
Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken
in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating
from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs
were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the
word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and
some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain
other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not
necessarily out of the question.

Dave

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
> Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
> Jan,
>
> Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.
>
> *O**thúŋwahe* ‘town’ is another one of those *wanderwoerter* that has
> similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and
> Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I
> think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name *Tomahitan*, which would
> mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that the word
> is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make
> me feel good.  :-)
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan
> Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>   Dear all:
>
> I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may
> think. Here are some examples:
>
> aspéla (from aspirin)
> bébela ‘baby’ from French
> khukhúše ‘pig’ from French
> kuŋkúŋla  - ‘cucumber’
> khamíte ‘committee’
> pusíla – ‘cat’
> spakéli ‘spaghetti’
>
> I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is
> true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the
> case of spakéli, aspéla and pusíla, but the other ones are fully
> standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full
> list.
>
> I am intrigued by Bob’s comment that othúŋwahe ‘town’ might be borrowing
> as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz’s
> materials, but I could be wrong) that the word itázipa ‘bow’ is a loan as
> well.
>
> Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking
> grandparents Lakotized the children’s English names because they couldn’t
> pronounce them. For example Delores was called “Čelowiŋ”, Imogene was
> “Imočila” etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could
> be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing
> words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very
> reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the
> majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn’t be at all
> surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on
> fauna and flora.
>
> As for “mirror” I have always been skeptical about the “mirror glass”
> etymology because the analyses that involves mní ‘water’ and a possessive
> or reflexive of ókas’iŋ ‘to peer into’ seem quite convincing and is
> consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn’t be
> for the first time.
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
> Of *De Reuse, Willem
> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>  Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree, and
> I like the expression 'chiming calque'.
>
> Willem
>  ------------------------------
>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory
> Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
> Ø  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it
> has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT
> a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which
> means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
>
> Ø I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long
> “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword
> from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the
> vertitive given in the new dictionary.
>
>
> The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears
> in both Williamson and Riggs:
>
> Riggs:
>
>                 mi-yó-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See
> mioglasiŋ.
>
>                 mí-o-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasiŋ.
>
>                 mni-yó-hda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See
> mioglasiŋ.
>
> Williamson:
>
>                 mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasiŋ.  Y.  Mniokdasiŋ.  T.  Miyoglasiŋ.
>
> Riggs:
>
> i-hdí-yo-mda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasiŋ.  See
> aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.
>
> a-ó-ka-siŋ,  v.a.  to look into, peep into—aowakasiŋ, aoyakasiŋ,
> aouŋkasiŋpi.
>
>                 ó-ka-siŋ,  v.  to look into.  See aokasiŋ, kas’iŋ, and
> okakiŋ.
>
>                 ka-s’íŋ, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasiŋ and
> okasiŋ.
>
> The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ókas(‘)iŋ, ‘to look into’.
> In its vertitive form óglasiŋ, it should mean ‘to look into at oneself’,
> which makes very good sense for the meaning of ‘mirror’.  The Yankton and
> one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the
> term m(i)ni, ‘water’, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other
> Santee form shows that ‘oil’, ihdi, could be substituted for ‘water’ to get
> the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different
> instrumental prefix—not sure why).  Most likely, native people were
> perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still
> liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
>
> These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of
> terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to
> assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable
> similarity to “mirrorglass”, and then only because that dialect happens to
> use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
>
> This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.
> French seems to have both “miroir” and “glace” as words for ‘mirror’, where
> English has “mirror” and “looking-glass”.  But was a term like
> “mirrorglass” actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19
> th centuries?  I don’t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French
> dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was commonly used
> a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by
> it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I think the
> “coincidence” here may actually illustrate the process of creating a
> chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Rory
>
>
>
>
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 18:16:38 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 18:16:38 +0000
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjSztTcm=bMmM_a+dM-8_igz+G+JXNY57fqYzdPB2gi-Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.181638.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Well, the fact that this is essentially the hypothesis of the History Channel guys, Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, who also claim to have "discovered" Mayan temples in North Georgia, doesn't make the theory more attractive.  When legit archaeologists have dug up an identifiably Totonacan boat in the SE U.S., I'll take it more seriously.

I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.  If so, it would be a much more likely source for the Siouan and Muskogean terms.  BTW, the Choctaw speakers I worked with had "tomaha" rather than "tamaha", but I don't know how widespread that is.

Creek "talwa" is not involved in the group.  It is a native term derived from the root "tal-" 'arrange, put, place, group' and appears to have good cognates across Muskogean.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:08 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.  Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not necessarily out of the question.

Dave

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk<mailto:shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:
Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
Bruce

________________________________
From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Jan,

Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.

Othúŋwahe ‘town’ is another one of those wanderwoerter that has similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name Tomahitan, which would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make me feel good.  :-)

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] on behalf of Jan Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG<mailto:jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG>]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Dear all:

I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may think. Here are some examples:

aspéla (from aspirin)
bébela ‘baby’ from French
khukhúše ‘pig’ from French
kuŋkúŋla  - ‘cucumber’
khamíte ‘committee’
pusíla – ‘cat’
spakéli ‘spaghetti’

I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the case of spakéli, aspéla and pusíla, but the other ones are fully standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full list.

I am intrigued by Bob’s comment that othúŋwahe ‘town’ might be borrowing as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz’s materials, but I could be wrong) that the word itázipa ‘bow’ is a loan as well.

Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking grandparents Lakotized the children’s English names because they couldn’t pronounce them. For example Delores was called “Čelowiŋ”, Imogene was “Imočila” etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on fauna and flora.

As for “mirror” I have always been skeptical about the “mirror glass” etymology because the analyses that involves mní ‘water’ and a possessive or reflexive of ókas’iŋ ‘to peer into’ seem quite convincing and is consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn’t be for the first time.

Jan





From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree, and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.

Willem
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU<mailto:rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

>  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)

> I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.


The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears in both Williamson and Riggs:

Riggs:

                mi-yó-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See mioglasiŋ.

                mí-o-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasiŋ.

                mni-yó-hda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See mioglasiŋ.

Williamson:

                mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasiŋ.  Y.  Mniokdasiŋ.  T.  Miyoglasiŋ.

Riggs:

i-hdí-yo-mda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasiŋ.  See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.

a-ó-ka-siŋ,  v.a.  to look into, peep into—aowakasiŋ, aoyakasiŋ, aouŋkasiŋpi.

                ó-ka-siŋ,  v.  to look into.  See aokasiŋ, kas’iŋ, and okakiŋ.

                ka-s’íŋ, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.

The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ókas(‘)iŋ, ‘to look into’.  In its vertitive form óglasiŋ, it should mean ‘to look into at oneself’, which makes very good sense for the meaning of ‘mirror’.  The Yankton and one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the term m(i)ni, ‘water’, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other Santee form shows that ‘oil’, ihdi, could be substituted for ‘water’ to get the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different instrumental prefix—not sure why).  Most likely, native people were perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.

These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable similarity to “mirrorglass”, and then only because that dialect happens to use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.

This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.  French seems to have both “miroir” and “glace” as words for ‘mirror’, where English has “mirror” and “looking-glass”.  But was a term like “mirrorglass” actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19th centuries?  I don’t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I think the “coincidence” here may actually illustrate the process of creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.


Cheers,
Rory




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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Oct  5 19:38:04 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 20:38:04 +0100
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370C475@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.203804.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
 


I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.  


________________________________
 

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.  \

It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."  It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes.


Bob
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From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Oct  5 18:46:23 2013
From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:46:23 -0700
Subject: town
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FB11@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.114623.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Basically, yes: Fox o·te·weni, Shawnee hoteewe, Ojibwe oodena, Cree o·te·naw, Munsee Delaware o·té·nay, Western Abenaki odana, Passamaquoddy uten, etc. There's some messiness with the ending and some languages seem to undo the contraction, but it's been tentatively reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *o·te·weni 'village'.

Dave

> I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.

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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:14:22 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:14:22 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.221422.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:19:58 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:19:58 +0000
Subject: BL and GL initials.
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.221958.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Bruce,

I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)

As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.

Best,

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce

________________________________
From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.
________________________________

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.  \

It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."  It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes.


Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:31:40 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:31:40 +0000
Subject: town
In-Reply-To: <4AD76B5C-7F1D-4D3D-8AAC-D912B524AC38@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.223140.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

OK, then either Algonquian is the source of the Siouan and Choctaw forms or it is simply not related.  But the Algonquian terms are not Meso-American loanwords.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 1:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: town

Basically, yes: Fox o·te·weni, Shawnee hoteewe, Ojibwe oodena, Cree o·te·naw, Munsee Delaware o·té·nay, Western Abenaki odana, Passamaquoddy uten, etc. There's some messiness with the ending and some languages seem to undo the contraction, but it's been tentatively reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *o·te·weni 'village'.

Dave

I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.

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From jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Oct  5 23:09:48 2013
From: jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM (Jamie Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:09:48 -0600
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FD78@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.170948.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Last I read, 12 homes were destroyed, 15 people injured, no fatalities. Luckily not much damage for such a large storm, but hopefully she wasn't one of the unlucky few affected directly.

Jamie
(Bushnell, NE)

On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:14 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU> wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
> 
> Bob

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Sun Oct  6 00:44:33 2013
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:44:33 -0500
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.194433.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L."  10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Oct  6 00:53:35 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 00:53:35 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <52506C1F0200008E0009A443@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.005335.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK.



I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.



I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob
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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Sun Oct  6 01:55:50 2013
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:55:50 -0600
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <52506C1F0200008E0009A443@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.195550.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

This is a relief to hear.  Good luck to you and your family and your 
fellow townspeople

Mary


On 05/10/2013 6:44 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for 
> thinking of us.
>
> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" 
> (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a 
> couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our 
> little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing 
> businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less 
> flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable 
> damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, 
> crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on 
> a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so 
> most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be 
> hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, 
> now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but 
> apparently going to be ok.
>
> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs 
> down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of 
> the storm.
>
> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the 
> normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.
>
> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
> Catherine
>
> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
> Folks,
>
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent 
> Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the 
> University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that 
> they are all right.
>
> Bob

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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Sun Oct  6 03:30:55 2013
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:30:55 -1000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FF78@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.173055.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis



On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:

> Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
>  
> I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
>  
> I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
>  
> Bob
> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Re: Wayne, NE
> 
> Hi, everyone.
> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.
> 
> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.
> 
> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  
> 
> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
> Catherine
> 
> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
> Folks,
> 
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
> 
> Bob

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu




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From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 11:49:40 2013
From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:49:40 -0700
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <38EB1942-A5D0-436E-8B68-FE6F313A4654@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.044940.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.

Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:
> 
> I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.
> 
> Best,
> Ardis
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
>> 
>>  
>> I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
>> 
>>  
>> I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
>> 
>>  
>> Bob
>> 
>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
>> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> Subject: Re: Wayne, NE
>> 
>> Hi, everyone.
>> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.
>> 
>> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.
>> 
>> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  
>> 
>> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
>> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  
>> 
>> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
>> Catherine
>> 
>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
>> Folks,
>> 
>> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
> Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
> Windward Community College
> (808) 235-7466
> ardise at hawaii.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Oct  6 15:13:55 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:13:55 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <38EB1942-A5D0-436E-8B68-FE6F313A4654@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.151355.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Ardis.  That's good to hear.

Bob


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis



On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:


Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK.



I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.



I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu<http://wsc.edu>)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu<mailto:ardise at hawaii.edu>




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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sun Oct  6 15:51:12 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:51:12 +0100
Subject: BL and GL initials.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FDA3@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.165112.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Bob,
Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting.  I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices.  Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican.  However I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I couldn't find anything similar in Bright.  Any ideas anyone?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
Subject: BL and GL initials.
 


 
Hi Bruce,

I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)

As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi
 Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.

Best,

Bob


________________________________
 
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.


I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.



 
I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.  


________________________________
 

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.  \

It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."  It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes. 


Bob
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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Sun Oct  6 16:03:45 2013
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:03:45 -0500
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.110345.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly
mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci
family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high
plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.  
Catherine

>>> "Kathleen D. Shea"  10/06/13 6:52 AM >>>
Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.


Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:


I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It
went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm
really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis




On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:

Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
 

I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy
Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.
 There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news
channel.   
 

I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of
the Kaw Pow Wow. 
 

Bob
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of
Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE



Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for
thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park"
(Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a
couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our
little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing
businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less
flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable
damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees,
crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a
Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most
of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One
friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now
hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but
apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs
down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the
storm. 

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the
normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything. 

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent
Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the
University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that
they are all right.

Bob







Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu













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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 17:29:30 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:29:30 -0500
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FB11@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.122930.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I would not go so far as the History Channel does in proclaiming northern
Georgia to have been a Maya colony, but I still believe that the maritime
trade hypothesis has some merit, whether this particular 'tamaha' word has
any relation to Totonac or not.  A Mexican archaeologist recently claims to
have discovered the remains of a boat pier in the neighborhood of El Tajin
that she believes was a Gulf trading port.  No discovery of any boats yet
that I know of, and especially not in the area of Mobile Bay, but I think
such archaeological evidence helps raise the ante in a discussion of Gulf
trade and contact.  Stay tuned....

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  Well, the fact that this is essentially the hypothesis of the History
> Channel guys, Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, who also claim to have
> "discovered" Mayan temples in North Georgia, doesn't make the theory more
> attractive.  When legit archaeologists have dug up an identifiably
> Totonacan boat in the SE U.S., I'll take it more seriously.
>
> I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term
> is reconstructible in that family.  If so, it would be a much more likely
> source for the Siouan and Muskogean terms.  BTW, the Choctaw speakers I
> worked with had "tomaha" rather than "tamaha", but I don't know how
> widespread that is.
>
> Creek "talwa" is not involved in the group.  It is a native term derived
> from the root "tal-" 'arrange, put, place, group' and appears to have good
> cognates across Muskogean.
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David
> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:08 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>   I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon
> tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac
> tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.
> Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken
> in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating
> from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs
> were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the
> word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and
> some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain
> other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not
> necessarily out of the question.
>
>  Dave
>
>  David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
> University of Kansas
>  Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
>
>>  Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting
>> resemblance.
>>  Bruce
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>  Jan,
>>
>> Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.
>>
>> *O**thúŋwahe* ‘town’ is another one of those *wanderwoerter* that has
>> similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and
>> Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I
>> think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name *Tomahitan*, which
>> would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that
>> the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences
>> don't make me feel good.  :-)
>>
>> Bob
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan
>> Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>   Dear all:
>>
>> I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may
>> think. Here are some examples:
>>
>> aspéla (from aspirin)
>> bébela ‘baby’ from French
>> khukhúše ‘pig’ from French
>> kuŋkúŋla  - ‘cucumber’
>> khamíte ‘committee’
>> pusíla – ‘cat’
>> spakéli ‘spaghetti’
>>
>> I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is
>> true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the
>> case of spakéli, aspéla and pusíla, but the other ones are fully
>> standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full
>> list.
>>
>> I am intrigued by Bob’s comment that othúŋwahe ‘town’ might be borrowing
>> as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz’s
>> materials, but I could be wrong) that the word itázipa ‘bow’ is a loan as
>> well.
>>
>> Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking
>> grandparents Lakotized the children’s English names because they couldn’t
>> pronounce them. For example Delores was called “Čelowiŋ”, Imogene was
>> “Imočila” etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could
>> be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing
>> words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very
>> reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the
>> majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn’t be at all
>> surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on
>> fauna and flora.
>>
>> As for “mirror” I have always been skeptical about the “mirror glass”
>> etymology because the analyses that involves mní ‘water’ and a possessive
>> or reflexive of ókas’iŋ ‘to peer into’ seem quite convincing and is
>> consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn’t be
>> for the first time.
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *De Reuse, Willem
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>  Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree,
>> and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.
>>
>> Willem
>>  ------------------------------
>>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory
>> Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
>> *Sent:* Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>> Ø  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it
>> has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT
>> a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which
>> means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
>>
>> Ø I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long
>> “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword
>> from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the
>> vertitive given in the new dictionary.
>>
>>
>> The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears
>> in both Williamson and Riggs:
>>
>> Riggs:
>>
>>                 mi-yó-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See
>> mioglasiŋ.
>>
>>                 mí-o-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasiŋ.
>>
>>                 mni-yó-hda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See
>> mioglasiŋ.
>>
>> Williamson:
>>
>>                 mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasiŋ.  Y.  Mniokdasiŋ.  T.
>> Miyoglasiŋ.
>>
>> Riggs:
>>
>> i-hdí-yo-mda-siŋ, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasiŋ.  See
>> aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.
>>
>> a-ó-ka-siŋ,  v.a.  to look into, peep into—aowakasiŋ, aoyakasiŋ,
>> aouŋkasiŋpi.
>>
>>                 ó-ka-siŋ,  v.  to look into.  See aokasiŋ, kas’iŋ, and
>> okakiŋ.
>>
>>                 ka-s’íŋ, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasiŋ and
>> okasiŋ.
>>
>> The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ókas(‘)iŋ, ‘to look into’.
>> In its vertitive form óglasiŋ, it should mean ‘to look into at oneself’,
>> which makes very good sense for the meaning of ‘mirror’.  The Yankton and
>> one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the
>> term m(i)ni, ‘water’, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other
>> Santee form shows that ‘oil’, ihdi, could be substituted for ‘water’ to get
>> the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different
>> instrumental prefix—not sure why).  Most likely, native people were
>> perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still
>> liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
>>
>> These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of
>> terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to
>> assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable
>> similarity to “mirrorglass”, and then only because that dialect happens to
>> use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
>>
>> This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.
>> French seems to have both “miroir” and “glace” as words for ‘mirror’, where
>> English has “mirror” and “looking-glass”.  But was a term like
>> “mirrorglass” actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or
>> 19th centuries?  I don’t find it in my English dictionary, or in the
>> French dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was
>> commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was
>> influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I
>> think the “coincidence” here may actually illustrate the process of
>> creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 20:51:45 2013
From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:51:45 -0500
Subject: wanonscopakmik
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.155145.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Bruce, I see on Google Maps that there is a lake called "Wononskopomuc"
just south of Lakeville, Connecticut. Does that spelling help? (I don't
have Bright's dictionary.)

The usgs.gov site has a great place-name lookup facility, but it is
currently down due to the government shutdown.


On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> Thanks Bob,
> Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting.
>  I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the
> internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices.
>  Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain
> range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from
> tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican.  However
> I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told
> was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I
> couldn't find anything similar in Bright.  Any ideas anyone?
> Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
> *Subject:* BL and GL initials.
>
>  Hi Bruce,
>
> I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)
>
> As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your
> questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some
> time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa
> and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent
> in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but
> Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh
> Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>   I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't
> the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
>  Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
> *Subject:* Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>  I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological
> analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little
> phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go
> back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go
> back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of
> these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able
> to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress
> synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken
> Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is
> too.
>  ------------------------------
>
>   > Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would
> count glV- as one syllable.
>
> Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV *may* form single
> syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited
> above.  \
>
> It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification
> rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second
> syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I
> remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because
> he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."
> It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two
> syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single
> syllables for yet other purposes.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
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From rgraczyk at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  6 23:17:06 2013
From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:17:06 -0400
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <525143900200008E0009A568@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.191706.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Ten inches of snow in Pryor the other day.


Randy



-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU>
To: SIOUAN <SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 10:03 am
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE


Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.  
Catherine

>>> "Kathleen D. Shea"  10/06/13 6:52 AM >>>

Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.


Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:



I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.


Best,
Ardis







On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:



Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
 

I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
 

I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
 

Bob


From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE



Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm. 

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything. 

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>

Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob







Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu












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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Oct  7 01:15:14 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 01:15:14 +0000
Subject: Weather in Siouan Country.
Message-ID: <MON.7.OCT.2013.011514.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Boy, the weather here in the plains is no joke, is it?

Bob

________________________________
Ten inches of snow in Pryor the other day.

Randy



Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.
Catherine


Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, Iʻm really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Mon Oct  7 10:36:16 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:36:16 +0100
Subject: wanonscopakmik
In-Reply-To: <CADWiNGyRDqe909hyeSQOpyUYt5BKP+v5mAE_B3qTAG-jU=x2hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.OCT.2013.113616.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Yes it does thank you.  In fact my friend over in America had corrected my spelling.  I always mistake an American pronunciation of -o- for an -a- .  I was once introduced to a Lakota lady called "Bonny Black Bear" and wondered why she was called "Barny".  The same mistake.  The name is mentioned in Bright and is said to mean "rocks at the bend in the lake" in Mohican.

Bruce


________________________________
 From: George Wilmes <george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013, 21:51
Subject: Re: wanonscopakmik
 


Hi Bruce, I see on Google Maps that there is a lake called "Wononskopomuc" just south of Lakeville, Connecticut. Does that spelling help? (I don't have Bright's dictionary.)

The usgs.gov site has a great place-name lookup facility, but it is currently down due to the government shutdown.




On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Thanks Bob,
>Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting.  I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices.  Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican.  However I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I couldn't find anything similar in Bright.  Any ideas anyone?
>Bruce
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
>Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
>Subject: BL and GL initials.
> 
>
>
>Hi Bruce,
>
>I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)
>
>As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi
 Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.
>
>Best,
>
>Bob
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
>Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>
>I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
>Bruce
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
>Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
>Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>
>
>I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.  
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>
>
>> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.
>
>Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.  \
>
>It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."  It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes. 
>
>
>Bob
>
>
>
>
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From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Thu Oct 10 19:41:47 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:41:47 -0600
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6CDB@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.134147.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,
I think by radical he means that the /y/ is part of the word's root rather
than just a result of /i/ + /u/ coming together. His reasoning is that the
Hocąk cognate has /zh/ between /i/ and /u/, and /zh/ is not naturally
euphonious in that location. Thus, he also expects whatever is in the
equivalent place of the Chiwere word, the /y/ between the /i/ and /u/, to
be part of the word itself rather than surface euphony. Whether or not
Dorsey is correct, I don't know, but I believe that's what he's saying and
the reasoning for it. Btw, Helmbrecht and Lehmann in their dictionary have *
wiižúk* for 'gun' in Hocąk.
-Saul


On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for
> “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:****
>
> ** **
>
> i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)****
>
> ** **
>
> And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making
> “iyujį” (strike/hit with).****
>
> ** **
>
> Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:****
>
> ** **
>
> *“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word
> from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the
> compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that
> the “y” in iyu- is radical.”*
>
> ** **
>
> Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the
> Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the
> Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone
> have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I
> could find.****
>
> ** **
>
> Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.****
>
> ** **
>
> *jútschä* (Maximilian)****
>
> His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y”
> sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with
> his term “strike” (uh-tschin).****
>
> ** **
>
> *E-yock-a* (Major Albert Green)****
>
> Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck”
> has me curious.****
>
> ** **
>
> *i-yo-ćeˊ* (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)****
>
> ** **
>
> *uyóci* (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)****
>
> ** **
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
>   ­­
>
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Thu Oct 10 19:25:01 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:25:01 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.142501.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)

And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:

“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.

jútschä (Maximilian)
His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck” has me curious.

i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Thu Oct 10 20:24:55 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6CDB@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.152455.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I already sent you Hochank term = wiizhúk.

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:

 

i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)

 

And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).

 

Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:

 

“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”

 

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

 

Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.

 

jútschä (Maximilian)

His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).

 

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)

Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck” has me curious.

 

i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

 

uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ­­  
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Oct 11 08:19:27 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:19:27 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <EB27BF58FFEC4BDDA03D6122F7B28511@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.031927.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,

the Hoocąk term wiižuk comes from the word žuuk (or žuužuk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiižuk = wa-hi-žuuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hoocąk it’s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hoocąk word hojį ’hit’ can also be derived in the same way (wiirojį = wa-hi-hojį) to form a noun, but it doesn’t mean ’gun’ but rather ’bat’ as in ’baseball bat’.

Best,
Iren

Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu









I already sent you Hochank term = wiizhúk.


 

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
 


I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria 
term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with 
this:
 
i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį 
(hit/strike)
 
And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony 
thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).
 
Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he 
says:
 
“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to 
derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed 
making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- 
shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”
 
Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no 
because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been 
able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by 
“radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any 
related cognates that I could find.
 
Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that 
may help.
 
jútschä (Maximilian)
His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right 
into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes 
with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).
 
E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point 
but his “ck” has me curious.
 
i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden 
(1862)
 
uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Sky Campbell, B. 
A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org
 
  ­­  
 		 	   		  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Fri Oct 11 13:28:27 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:28:27 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W344871CDD6CC4755A24503BB1F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.082827.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

That makes perfect sense!  I’ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochiŋe (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has “iyóje”.  Jimm’s dictionary has several variants of this.  I’ll see what else I can find.

As far as “shoot” we have a couple.  First is the basic “kuje” (seems to match your “guuc”) but I haven’t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn’t to say that “kuje” by itself can’t be used to indicate shooting a gun…I just haven’t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term “iyujį kuje” to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have “ma kuje” to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that “kuje” would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.

Our term for a war club is “wirujį/wirojį” which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + ujį (hit/strike).

Thank you very much for this!

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

Hi Sky,

the Hoocąk term wiižuk comes from the word žuuk (or žuužuk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiižuk = wa-hi-žuuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hoocąk it’s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hoocąk word hojį ’hit’ can also be derived in the same way (wiirojį = wa-hi-hojį) to form a noun, but it doesn’t mean ’gun’ but rather ’bat’ as in ’baseball bat’.

Best,
Iren
________________________________
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM<mailto:jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
I already sent you Hochank term = wiizhúk.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)

And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:

“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.

jútschä (Maximilian)
His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck” has me curious.

i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ­­
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 11 20:21:50 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:21:50 +0000
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6D62@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.202150.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I don't know if Dhegiha will help, but 'shoot' in all of its meanings is kkuje and 'gun' is wahóttą, i.e., something that makes a loud characteristic noise.  In some of the Eastern Siouan languages 'gun' is the same as 'bow'.



Bob

________________________________


That makes perfect sense!  I’ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochiŋe (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has “iyóje”.  Jimm’s dictionary has several variants of this.  I’ll see what else I can find.

As far as “shoot” we have a couple.  First is the basic “kuje” (seems to match your “guuc”) but I haven’t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn’t to say that “kuje” by itself can’t be used to indicate shooting a gun…I just haven’t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term “iyujį kuje” to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have “ma kuje” to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that “kuje” would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.

Our term for a war club is “wirujį/wirojį” which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + ujį (hit/strike).

Thank you very much for this!

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

Hi Sky,

the Hoocąk term wiižuk comes from the word žuuk (or žuužuk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiižuk = wa-hi-žuuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hoocąk it’s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hoocąk word hojį ’hit’ can also be derived in the same way (wiirojį = wa-hi-hojį) to form a noun, but it doesn’t mean ’gun’ but rather ’bat’ as in ’baseball bat’.

Best,
Iren
________________________________
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM<mailto:jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
I already sent you Hochank term = wiizhúk.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)

And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:

“Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.

jútschä (Maximilian)
His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck” has me curious.

i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ­­

  ­­
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Mon Oct 14 01:23:36 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:23:36 -0500
Subject: F.Y.I.   RE: PLURAL VS DUAL
Message-ID: <SUN.13.OCT.2013.202336.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

This I found from linguist Lila Wistrand Robinson’s definitive statement on the dual plural “-wi” and the regular plural “-ñe.”

This said, and I quote:

         [NOTE: For only two items or persons, the verb suffix “-wi” indicating third person dual “two” or “they two” is added to the noun or its modifier in the identification sentence or description sentence.  “Chéxga núwewi ke/ki,  They are ~ there are two cows.”  Without using the number “núwe” (two), only using “-wi”, we know we are talking about two items.  “Warújewi ke/ki, They are ~ there are two tables.”  The dual “-wi” and plural “-ñe” of third person identification or description are not used with nouns or noun phrases in any other position (subject, object, location, etc.), for they have no plural suffix.  “Amína núwe hagúnda ke/ki,  I want two chair.” (LWR)]. 
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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Tue Oct 15 03:57:58 2013
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:57:58 -1000
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6D62@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.OCT.2013.175758.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I canʻt help but join in the fun with cognates here.  

In Omaha, whistle is zude (and you can get zuzude), which would be cognate with the whistle that your word for gun seems to originate from.  Gun is Omaha is not based on whistle though.

In Omaha, a gun is wahutoNthiN.  HutoN, the root, is however the word used for the bellowing that elks make when mating (and August is oNpHoN hutoNi ke ʻwhen the elks bellowʻ).  

So, the underlying thought is still cognate even though the root chosen isnʻt.  Makes me miss being a linguist.  

Please excuse if someone else already said all this.  I was on vacation 10 days and didnʻt read email.  I have 700 more to go.  I just loved the alignment/non-alignment of thought and root here and couldnʻt resist a comment!  :D


Respectfully,
Ardis




On Oct 11, 2013, at 3:28 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote:

> That makes perfect sense!  I’ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochiŋe (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has “iyóje”.  Jimm’s dictionary has several variants of this.  I’ll see what else I can find.
>  
> As far as “shoot” we have a couple.  First is the basic “kuje” (seems to match your “guuc”) but I haven’t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn’t to say that “kuje” by itself can’t be used to indicate shooting a gun…I just haven’t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term “iyujį kuje” to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have “ma kuje” to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that “kuje” would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.
>  
> Our term for a war club is “wirujį/wirojį” which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + ujį (hit/strike).
>  
> Thank you very much for this!
>  
> Sky Campbell, B. A.
> Language Director
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111
> sky at omtribe.org
>  
> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
>  
> Hi Sky,
> 
> the Hoocąk term wiižuk comes from the word žuuk (or žuužuk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiižuk = wa-hi-žuuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.
> 
> What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hoocąk it’s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.
> 
> The Hoocąk word hojį ’hit’ can also be derived in the same way (wiirojį = wa-hi-hojį) to form a noun, but it doesn’t mean ’gun’ but rather ’bat’ as in ’baseball bat’.
> 
> Best,
> Iren
> 
> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
> From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> 
> I already sent you Hochank term = wiizhúk.
>  
> From: Campbell, Sky
> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
>  
> I’m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for “gun” (iyujį).  My first instinct was to go with this:
>  
> i- (instrumental prefix and/or “with”) + ujį (hit/strike)
>  
> And in there, the “y” would occur for the sake of euphony thus making “iyujį” (strike/hit with).
>  
> Then I saw Dorsey’s entry with his term “i-yu-́ciⁿ” where he says:
>  
> “Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uciⁿ, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uciⁿ, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the “y” in iyu- is radical.”
>  
> Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hocąnk cognate and that it is “radical.”  I haven’t been able to find the Hocąk term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by “radical.”  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven’t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.
>  
> Here are some spellings of this term I’ve come across that may help.
>  
> jútschä (Maximilian)
> His forms don’t have the initial “i-“ but just jump right into the “y” sound.  He also ends with “ä” (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with “į” with his term “strike” (uh-tschin).
>  
> E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
> Linguistic precision definitely isn’t Green’s strong point but his “ck” has me curious.
>  
> i-yo-ćeˊ (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)
>  
> uyóci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)
>  
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>  
> Sky Campbell, B. A.
> Language Director
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111
> sky at omtribe.org
>  
> 
>   ­­ 
> 
>   ­­  

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu




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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Tue Oct 15 18:50:43 2013
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:50:43 -0600
Subject: Regina Pustet
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.125043.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last 
February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large 
number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of 
this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to 
me was second or third hand news.
 	According to the best current information I have, she got some 
kind of food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For 
about a year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
 	A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with 
Regina's mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a 
proper memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's 
considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, 
including Lakota studies.
 	Best wishes to all of you.
 	David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU  Tue Oct 15 18:55:54 2013
From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:55:54 -0700
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1310150926300.29476@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.115554.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

What a terrible, terrible shame. Thank you for telling us, David.

Marianne

--On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:50 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S 
<david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:

> It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last
> February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large
> number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of
> this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to
> me was second or third hand news.
>  	According to the best current information I have, she got some kind of
> food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For about a
> year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
>  	A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with Regina's
> mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a proper
> memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's
> considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, including
> Lakota studies.
>  	Best wishes to all of you.
>  	David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU  Tue Oct 15 19:49:20 2013
From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 14:49:20 -0500
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <C112F98DEEE931FDA4E10E1B@[192.168.7.112]>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.144920.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

How very sad!  I've missed Regina at the last few conferences; hoped she might rejoin us some time. 

>>> Marianne Mithun <mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU> 10/15/2013 1:55 PM >>>
What a terrible, terrible shame. Thank you for telling us, David.

Marianne

--On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:50 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S 
<david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:

> It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last
> February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large
> number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of
> this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to
> me was second or third hand news.
>  According to the best current information I have, she got some kind of
> food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For about a
> year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
>  A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with Regina's
> mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a proper
> memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's
> considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, including
> Lakota studies.
>  Best wishes to all of you.
>  David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Wed Oct 16 14:50:43 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:50:43 +0100
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1310150926300.29476@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.OCT.2013.155043.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear David,
I'm very sorry to hear that.  I met her at our conferences and often corresponded with her about Lakota.  I always thought that her work was very innovative and enjoyed talking with her.   I was looking forward to seeing more work by her. What a shame for one so young.
Yours
Bruce



On Tuesday, 15 October 2013, 21:52, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:
 
It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last 
February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large 
number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of 
this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to 
me was second or third hand news.
    According to the best current information I have, she got some 
kind of food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For 
about a year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
    A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with 
Regina's mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a 
proper memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's 
considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, 
including Lakota studies.
    Best wishes to all of you.
    David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 18 20:54:23 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:54:23 +0000
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W144EFD65EFF6B5990332A7BB380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.205423.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Iren,



Did I already answer this one?  Seems to me I may have.



> Hoocąk grizzly bear is mąąco (definitely with a voiceless affricate).



Going back to *th.  The initial /mą/ may go back to *wa- if 'grizzly' is bimorphemic.

> As for cow elk, I’m not aware of there being a specific word for a female elk, generally elk is hųųwą



This is the 'cow elk' term historically.  The cognate is oophą in several languages,  so that's one of the things that happens to *ph in Hoochunk.

==============================

The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

Bob



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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Oct 18 21:37:58 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:37:58 +0000
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623724A01@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.213758.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Ø The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

For Omaha, I have òⁿpHoⁿ and moⁿtšHù.  It looks like the ‘grizzly’ term got diminutivized somewhere in Omaha history.  The ‘elk’ term agrees with Hoocąk in having nasalization of the first vowel as well as the second, and, as far as I know, in not being gender specific.

Sorry to hear about the broken hip.  Good luck on your recovery.

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:54 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

Iren,

Did I already answer this one?  Seems to me I may have.

> Hoocąk grizzly bear is mąąco (definitely with a voiceless affricate).

Going back to *th.  The initial /mą/ may go back to *wa- if 'grizzly' is bimorphemic.

> As for cow elk, I’m not aware of there being a specific word for a female elk, generally elk is hųųwą

This is the 'cow elk' term historically.  The cognate is oophą in several languages,  so that's one of the things that happens to *ph in Hoochunk.

==============================

The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 18 20:36:49 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:36:49 +0000
Subject: clusters in potential loan words
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W44428A864FB1782E1DBB6DBB380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.203649.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Iren,



> In Chiwere dw clusters are similarly suspect. And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey’s Law vowel.

> Would this be cVw in Hoocąk? As in wicąwąs ’big cat, squash’? Or reecawa ’belly button’? ...nąącawa ’ear’?

Sorry to be so long answering, if I forgot earlier.  I got thrown in the Krankenhaus with a broken pelvis, and it's gotten in the way of my email correspondence.  Yes, those words are what I was referring to in at least some instances.  The ones that turn up in Lakota with gm or kw clusters are "foreign" and probably of Algonquian origin.  They should be examined very carefully.  On the other hand, 'ear' and perhaps other examples have a *tp cluster, and they may be native Siouan vocabulary.



All the best,



Bob
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Oct 21 11:36:46 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 06:36:46 -0500
Subject: clusters in potential loan words
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237249AE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.OCT.2013.063646.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Many thanks for this, Bob! 

I hope that you will feel better soon!

All the best for a speedy recovery,
Iren

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:36:49 +0000
From: rankin at KU.EDU
Subject: Re: clusters in potential loan words
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu








Hi Iren,

 

> In Chiwere dw clusters are similarly suspect.
And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey’s Law vowel.




> Would this be
cVw in Hoocąk? As in
wicąwąs ’big cat, squash’? Or reecawa ’belly button’?
...nąącawa ’ear’?



Sorry to be so long answering, if I forgot earlier.  I got thrown in the
Krankenhaus with a broken pelvis, and it's gotten in the way of my email correspondence.  Yes, those words are what I was referring to in at least some instances.  The ones that turn up in Lakota with
gm or kw clusters are "foreign" and probably of Algonquian origin.  They should be examined very carefully.  On the other hand, 'ear' and perhaps other examples have a *tp cluster, and they may be native Siouan vocabulary. 


 

All the best,

 

Bob

 		 	   		  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Mon Oct 28 19:21:10 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:21:10 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.142110.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Mon Oct 28 20:49:16 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:49:16 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.204916.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ­­
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Mon Oct 28 21:49:15 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 21:49:15 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FBF@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.214915.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

If rugri is Otoe for ‘lightning’, the initial ru- would probably just be the instrumental prefix for ‘hand’, wouldn’t it?  The *gr- > l- sound shift should only apply to Kaw and Osage.

In Omaha, the word for ‘electricity’ is rigrize.  That should be the same word as Otoe rugri, plus a determiner *-ze.

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:16 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ­­

  ­­
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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Mon Oct 28 20:36:20 2013
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:36:20 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.153620.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky,

The Ks term that Dorsey writes as "Lu" is more properly lo (or maybe loo --
you'd have to ask Bob about the vowel length on this one). Dorsey writes
most instances of KS /o/ with the grapheme u, presumably because of his
long-standing OP influence or maybe 'cos it's articulated a little higher
than English /o/. I can also say that Ks and Os /l/ in the most modern
period is a reflex of some velar plus some approximant, probably *gl in the
case of Ks, as can be seen in certain conservative names like gledaN,
'hawk.' So, lo is probably a reflex of *glo, which is surely cognate with
Maximilian's IOM "gron," though I can't account for the presence or absence
of nasalization. That said, in Ks, lo definitely refers not to thunder, but
to what Dorsey calls the "Thuder-being," probably the thunder bird, and the
respective clan named after said being. Now, when added to hottaN,
'characteristic sound,' you get lohottaN, 'thunder,' which literally refers
to the characteristic sound of the thunder bird. I know nothing about *lo
li or *lo lu in Ks; if it exists, it's news to me. But that's all I got,
and I'm not around a dictionary right now.

All the best,
-Justin


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms
> for “thunder” and “lightning.”****
>
> ** **
>
> For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s
> terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am
> trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is
> pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term
> would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on
> what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other
> terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as
> shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email
> formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source
> has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are
> just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives
> lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the
> reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is
> somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.****
>
> ** **
>
> Any thoughts?****
>
> ** **
>
> Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so
> figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about
> lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:****
>
> ** **
>
> rugri/rugrį****
>
> ** **
>
> Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes,
> “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year,
> the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire,
> making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And
> with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me
> thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says
> “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri
> (return home).****
>
> ** **
>
> Does anyone have any information on that?****
>
> ** **
>
> And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I
> mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as
> “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other
> possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes
> the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes
> that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful,
> incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24
> (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed
> of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word,
> uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine,
> supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”****
>
> ** **
>
> So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and
> I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions
> and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than
> “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends
> on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off
> the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and
> that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge”
> (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).****
>
> ** **
>
> This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information
> anyone might have on this.****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
>   ­­
>
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Mon Oct 28 21:15:55 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:15:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <f607fc7a0e6f40d3b7623f69e10c6376@BY2PR08MB048.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.161555.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 00:00:24 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:00:24 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FBF@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.190024.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.


From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

 

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

 

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugrį

 

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ­­  


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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 10:01:38 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 05:01:38 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.050138.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,

here are all the words I know of in Hoocąk that have something to do with thunder and lightning:

k’oo - thunder (used as noun or verb)
rujax - loud flash of lightning, loud thunderclap, sound of a thunderstorm

(jąąp) hakiwares - forked lightning
hojąp(re) - struck by lightning
hotahąhąp - lightning storm off in the distance
jąąjąp - lighting, flashes of lightning

... and apart from the weather phenomena:
Wakąja - Thunder Clan

Anyway, I hope this helps.
Best,
Iren

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:21:10 -0500
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.” For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder. Any thoughts? Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have: rugri/rugrį Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home). Does anyone have any information on that? And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.” So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this. Sky Campbell, B. A.Language DirectorOtoe-Missouria Tribe580-723-4466 ext. 111sky at omtribe.org 

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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Tue Oct 29 13:43:29 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:43:29 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <92DCD96AF9F94441A11438C559BF3638@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.084329.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities ☺.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

and

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ­­

  ­­
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 15:24:39 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:24:39 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FF7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.102439.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky,

-jax would be the sound part of the word... gijax means "splash". Not sure exactly what kind of sounds are all covered by -jax

Iren
 Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?   ­­   		 	   		  
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 23:32:11 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:32:11 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FF7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.183211.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

 

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities J.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

 

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

 

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

 

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

 

and

 

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

 

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

 

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

 

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugrį

 

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Oct 30 17:30:04 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:30:04 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <9F0CA58394CA409DB2B0D9E0457DCF9B@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.123004.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I know they are different but what I’m referring to is when I see a word like “ñita”, it is hard to determine if the –ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn’t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities ☺.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

and

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Wed Oct 30 18:03:40 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:03:40 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B5305@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.130340.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Generally, you can think that “-da” will be “at/ there.”  I haven’t come upon many uses of the “-ta” (big; great).

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I’m referring to is when I see a word like “ñita”, it is hard to determine if the –ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn’t a context available.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

 

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

 

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities J.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

 

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

 

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

 

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

 

and

 

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

 

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

 

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

 

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugrį

 

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ­­  


  ­­  


  ­­  


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-------------- next part --------------
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Oct 30 18:18:31 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:18:31 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <10BCD7F34828433AB07386BAA28EA4DE@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.131831.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Me either.  The only one that comes to mind right now is “Wadota.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:04 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Generally, you can think that “-da” will be “at/ there.”  I haven’t come upon many uses of the “-ta” (big; great).

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I’m referring to is when I see a word like “ñita”, it is hard to determine if the –ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn’t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities ☺.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

and

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Oct 30 19:41:08 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:41:08 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B5305@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.194108.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

To my knowledge (which, when it comes to Chiwere isn't great), -ta can never mean or refer to 'big, great'.  Only thą, with the clearly nasal vowel, can be 'big, great'.  I'm not saying you don't find it occasionally written and/or translated with an oral vowel, but if you do, it was presumably a pronunciation mistake by someone.  I can't recall my discussion of this with Jimm.  Maybe he still has the text and can refresh my 74 year-old memory.  It's possible we were talking about a mixture of topics where all this will make better sense, but this is my understanding at the moment.



I have some contributions to the thunder/lightning discussion too.


Quapaw terms of interest.

hw[ = headword
def[ = definition, i.e., English translation.
pos[ = part of speech.
rem[ = remarks


hw[dittóttoxi
def[thunder, one of the sounds of
pos[

hw[dittóxi
def[discharge, make a bang
pos[v
1sg[bdíttoxi
2sg[ttíttoxi

hw[kaníni, kanįnį́
def[thunder
pos[n
rem[ganiní ( OM)

hw[kanįttą́ka (OM)
def[thunder, loud rolling
pos[n

hw[kanǫžíke
def[thunder, distant
pos[n
1sg[prob. kanį+žįka
2sg[also ganožíge (OM)


hw[idé
def[do, go, used with lightning
pos[v
rem[dią́ba idé

hw[dią́ba
def[lightning, sheet
pos[n

hw[dią́ba idé
def[lightning, to sheet
pos[v
rem[to strike

hw[dikdíze [čikǰíze]
def[lightning, forked
pos[noun.  Underlying form restored by analysis of OM’s phonetic form. (RLR)

Other possible words of interest:

hw[knǫ
def[curse, revile
pos[v
1sg[aknǫ́
2sg[daknǫ́
This would be the cognate of the grǫ or grų set of words in other languages.


My additional material from Kaw (Kansa) will follow in a separate mailing.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I’m referring to is when I see a word like “ñita”, it is hard to determine if the –ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn’t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities ☺.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

and

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Oct 30 22:06:09 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:06:09 +0000
Subject: "Thunder" information.  More stuff.
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.220609.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Terms in which one or another cognate gets translated ‘thunder’ in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary.  (Although I can’t for the life of me figure out how that applied in the first case (below).  It must have been there somewhere.  Bob)



GLOSS[ growl †xrį >grunt



GRAMCAT[ V



PSI[ *xrį́



PMV[ *xrį́



PDA[ *xnį

LA[ †xnį́yą “ḣníyaƞ” ‘have stomach ache, afraid, quivering, be troubled’ B-194b



CH[ “xrínge” ‘growl, snarl’ JGT92-156

WI[ xįnį́ ‘growl (as an animal)’ KM-3923



PDH[ *xrį́-

KS[ xlį ‘growl’ RR

OS[ †xlį “xthiⁿ” LF-220b

QU[ xnį́ke, xdį́ke JOD



BI[ †xyí- “xyihĕ´” ‘growl, as a bear’; “xyídĕ nedí” ‘sawing noise, make’

     ? DS-226a



COM[ The BI forms for both ‘wind 3’ and ‘growl †xrį >grunt’ suggest an initial {*xy} rather tha {*xr}, if they’re cognate.





GLOSS[ rattle, rumble



GRAMCAT[

SEMCAT[



PSI[ *kʔó•he



OTHREC[



PMV[ *kʔo



PDA[ *kʔóɣA

LA[ kʔóɣA ‘make grating noise with a knife against metal’ EJ

DA[ †kʔóɣa “ḳo´ġa” ‘to rattle’ R-302a



PWC[ *kʔó

CH[ kʔó ‘thunder’ RR

WI[ kʔóo ‘thunder’ KM-1731



PDH[ *kʔó

OP[ “kʔo” ‘sound of wings’ JOD-1890:61.16

KS[ dákʔokʔo ‘blaze’ JOD

OS[ †kʔókʔo “ḳ’óḳ’o” ‘commotion, disturbance’ LF-88a



BI[ †kokó “koḳó sĕdí” ‘give off cracking sound’ DS-212a

BI[ †kokohe “ḳoḳohé” ‘rattling sounds’ DS-212a



GLOSS[ thunder †tuha



GRAMCAT[

SEMCAT[



PSI[ *tú•ha



OTHREC[



PCH[ *tú•ha

CR[ súua RG

CR[ suú G+G-56, DEC-7

HI[ tahú ~ táhu ‘thunder’ J



PSE[ *tú•ha ~ *tú•he



BI[ †tuhé “ṭuhé, ṭúhe” ‘thunder’ DS-281b



TU[ †tu•h- “tūi, tūhangrūa” ‘thunder’ H.



COM[ Cf. ‘thunder †krų’, ‘rainbow’. {tahu} shows rightward vowel

exchange. From PSi |t| we would expect CR |š/__u|; however, CR |s| is regular

for pre-CR |t /__a|.  This suggests a series of developments like the

following:  |*tahu > *sahu > *sau > *suu|.  |-uu| is the stem vowel in CR;

|-uua| is the citation form -- with added |-a| (?).  The implications are

that rightward vowel exchange occurred in PCH (not just in HI) and its product

was reduced in CR.  Cf. ‘visible’.




GLOSS[ thunder †krų



GRAMCAT[



PSI[ *-krų•



PMV[ *krų



PDA[ *wikrųke

LA[ wignų́ke ‘rainbow’ B-755a

DA[ †wíhmųke “wíhmuŋke” ‘rainbow’ R-574b



CH[ †grųgrų “grongron” ‘thunder’ JGT92-259



PDH[ *krǫ́

OP[ †įgðǫ́ hottą “iⁿgthúⁿ hutoⁿ” ‘thunder’ SW-173

KS[ glo ~ lo ‘thunder’ JOD

KS[ lo ‘thunder’ RR

OS[ †lǫ “gthoⁿ” ‘thunder’ LF-55b

QU[ †knǫ “ kanǫ žike” ‘thunder’ RR/OM



TU[ †tu•hą-kru•a “tūhangrūa” ‘thunder’ H.



COM[ TU and KS fail to preserve nasalization.


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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Oct  5 15:20:39 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 16:20:39 +0100
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370CA4A@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.162039.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
 


Jan,

Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.

Oth??wahe ?town? is another one of those wanderwoerter that has similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw.? I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.? I think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name Tomahitan, which would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.? It's not out of the question that the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make me feel good.? :-)

Bob
 

________________________________
 
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin


Dear all:
?
I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may think. Here are some examples:
?
asp?la (from aspirin)
b?bela ?baby? from French
khukh??e ?pig? from French
ku?k??la ?- ?cucumber?
kham?te ?committee?
pus?la ? ?cat?
spak?li ?spaghetti?
?
I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the case of spak?li, asp?la and pus?la, but the other ones are fully standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full list. 
?
I am intrigued by Bob?s comment that oth??wahe ?town? might be borrowing as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz?s materials, but I could be wrong) that the word it?zipa ?bow? is a loan as well.
?
Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking grandparents Lakotized the children?s English names because they couldn?t pronounce them. For example Delores was called ??elowi??, Imogene was ?Imo?ila? etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the majority of speakers were still monolingual. ?I wouldn?t be at all surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on fauna and flora.
?
As for ?mirror? I have always been skeptical about the ?mirror glass? etymology because the analyses that involves mn? ?water? and a possessive or reflexive of ?kas?i? ?to peer into? seem quite convincing and is consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn?t be for the first time.
?
Jan
?
?
?
?
?
From:Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
?
Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.? I agree, and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.

Willem

________________________________
 
From:Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin
?
?? It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".? But it has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT a loan from English.? (Coincidences happen.?? My favorite is [elkar] which means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
?
?I have to admit that I?m very skeptical of 5 syllable long ?coincidences?, so it seems to me more likely that ?mirror? is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.
?
?
The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears in both Williamson and Riggs:
?
Riggs:
?
??????????????? mi-y?-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.? See mioglasi?.
?
??????????????? m?-o-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror.? See mniohdasi?.
?
??????????????? mni-y?-hda-si?, n. ?a looking-glass; window glass.? See mioglasi?.
?
Williamson:
?
??????????????? mirror, n.? Ihdiyomdasi?.? Y.? Mniokdasi?.? T.? Miyoglasi?.
?
Riggs:
?
i-hd?-yo-mda-si?, n.? a looking-glass, mirror.? T., miyoglasi?.? See aokasi? and okasi?.
?
a-?-ka-si?,? v.a.? to look into, peep into?aowakasi?, aoyakasi?, aou?kasi?pi.
?
??????????????? ?-ka-si?,? v.? to look into.? See aokasi?, kas?i?, and okaki?.
?
??????????????? ka-s???, adv.? appearing, in sight.? See aokasi? and okasi?.
?
The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ?kas(?)i?, ?to look into?.? In its vertitive form ?glasi?, it should mean ?to look into at oneself?, which makes very good sense for the meaning of ?mirror?.? The Yankton and one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the term m(i)ni, ?water?, rather than the undefined element /mi/.? The other Santee form shows that ?oil?, ihdi, could be substituted for ?water? to get the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different instrumental prefix?not sure why).? Most likely, native people were perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
?
These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to assume a recent reanalysis.? Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable similarity to ?mirrorglass?, and then only because that dialect happens to use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
?
This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.? French seems to have both ?miroir? and ?glace? as words for ?mirror?, where English has ?mirror? and ?looking-glass?.? But was a term like ?mirrorglass? actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19th centuries?? I don?t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French dictionary either.? If we can document that this compound was commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.? Otherwise, I think the ?coincidence? here may actually illustrate the process of creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
?
?
Cheers,
Rory
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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sat Oct  5 16:08:45 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:08:45 -0500
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <1380986439.31413.YahooMailNeo@web171406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.110845.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon
tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac
tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.
Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken
in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating
from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs
were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the
word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and
some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain
other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not
necessarily out of the question.

Dave

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
> Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
> Jan,
>
> Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.
>
> *O**th??wahe* ?town? is another one of those *wanderwoerter* that has
> similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and
> Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I
> think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name *Tomahitan*, which would
> mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that the word
> is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make
> me feel good.  :-)
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan
> Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>   Dear all:
>
> I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may
> think. Here are some examples:
>
> asp?la (from aspirin)
> b?bela ?baby? from French
> khukh??e ?pig? from French
> ku?k??la  - ?cucumber?
> kham?te ?committee?
> pus?la ? ?cat?
> spak?li ?spaghetti?
>
> I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is
> true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the
> case of spak?li, asp?la and pus?la, but the other ones are fully
> standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full
> list.
>
> I am intrigued by Bob?s comment that oth??wahe ?town? might be borrowing
> as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz?s
> materials, but I could be wrong) that the word it?zipa ?bow? is a loan as
> well.
>
> Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking
> grandparents Lakotized the children?s English names because they couldn?t
> pronounce them. For example Delores was called ??elowi??, Imogene was
> ?Imo?ila? etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could
> be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing
> words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very
> reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the
> majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn?t be at all
> surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on
> fauna and flora.
>
> As for ?mirror? I have always been skeptical about the ?mirror glass?
> etymology because the analyses that involves mn? ?water? and a possessive
> or reflexive of ?kas?i? ?to peer into? seem quite convincing and is
> consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn?t be
> for the first time.
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
> Of *De Reuse, Willem
> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>  Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree, and
> I like the expression 'chiming calque'.
>
> Willem
>  ------------------------------
>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory
> Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
> ?  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it
> has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT
> a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which
> means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
>
> ? I have to admit that I?m very skeptical of 5 syllable long
> ?coincidences?, so it seems to me more likely that ?mirror? is a loanword
> from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the
> vertitive given in the new dictionary.
>
>
> The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears
> in both Williamson and Riggs:
>
> Riggs:
>
>                 mi-y?-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See
> mioglasi?.
>
>                 m?-o-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasi?.
>
>                 mni-y?-hda-si?, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See
> mioglasi?.
>
> Williamson:
>
>                 mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasi?.  Y.  Mniokdasi?.  T.  Miyoglasi?.
>
> Riggs:
>
> i-hd?-yo-mda-si?, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasi?.  See
> aokasi? and okasi?.
>
> a-?-ka-si?,  v.a.  to look into, peep into?aowakasi?, aoyakasi?,
> aou?kasi?pi.
>
>                 ?-ka-si?,  v.  to look into.  See aokasi?, kas?i?, and
> okaki?.
>
>                 ka-s???, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasi? and
> okasi?.
>
> The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ?kas(?)i?, ?to look into?.
> In its vertitive form ?glasi?, it should mean ?to look into at oneself?,
> which makes very good sense for the meaning of ?mirror?.  The Yankton and
> one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the
> term m(i)ni, ?water?, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other
> Santee form shows that ?oil?, ihdi, could be substituted for ?water? to get
> the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different
> instrumental prefix?not sure why).  Most likely, native people were
> perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still
> liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
>
> These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of
> terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to
> assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable
> similarity to ?mirrorglass?, and then only because that dialect happens to
> use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
>
> This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.
> French seems to have both ?miroir? and ?glace? as words for ?mirror?, where
> English has ?mirror? and ?looking-glass?.  But was a term like
> ?mirrorglass? actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19
> th centuries?  I don?t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French
> dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was commonly used
> a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by
> it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I think the
> ?coincidence? here may actually illustrate the process of creating a
> chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Rory
>
>
>
>
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 18:16:38 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 18:16:38 +0000
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjSztTcm=bMmM_a+dM-8_igz+G+JXNY57fqYzdPB2gi-Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.181638.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Well, the fact that this is essentially the hypothesis of the History Channel guys, Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, who also claim to have "discovered" Mayan temples in North Georgia, doesn't make the theory more attractive.  When legit archaeologists have dug up an identifiably Totonacan boat in the SE U.S., I'll take it more seriously.

I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.  If so, it would be a much more likely source for the Siouan and Muskogean terms.  BTW, the Choctaw speakers I worked with had "tomaha" rather than "tamaha", but I don't know how widespread that is.

Creek "talwa" is not involved in the group.  It is a native term derived from the root "tal-" 'arrange, put, place, group' and appears to have good cognates across Muskogean.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:08 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.  Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not necessarily out of the question.

Dave

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk<mailto:shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:
Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.
Bruce

________________________________
From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU<mailto:rankin at KU.EDU>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Jan,

Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.

Oth??wahe ?town? is another one of those wanderwoerter that has similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name Tomahitan, which would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make me feel good.  :-)

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] on behalf of Jan Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG<mailto:jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG>]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Dear all:

I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may think. Here are some examples:

asp?la (from aspirin)
b?bela ?baby? from French
khukh??e ?pig? from French
ku?k??la  - ?cucumber?
kham?te ?committee?
pus?la ? ?cat?
spak?li ?spaghetti?

I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the case of spak?li, asp?la and pus?la, but the other ones are fully standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full list.

I am intrigued by Bob?s comment that oth??wahe ?town? might be borrowing as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz?s materials, but I could be wrong) that the word it?zipa ?bow? is a loan as well.

Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking grandparents Lakotized the children?s English names because they couldn?t pronounce them. For example Delores was called ??elowi??, Imogene was ?Imo?ila? etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn?t be at all surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on fauna and flora.

As for ?mirror? I have always been skeptical about the ?mirror glass? etymology because the analyses that involves mn? ?water? and a possessive or reflexive of ?kas?i? ?to peer into? seem quite convincing and is consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn?t be for the first time.

Jan





From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree, and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.

Willem
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU<mailto:rlarson1 at UNL.EDU>]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Miyoglasin

>  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)

> I have to admit that I?m very skeptical of 5 syllable long ?coincidences?, so it seems to me more likely that ?mirror? is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.


The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears in both Williamson and Riggs:

Riggs:

                mi-y?-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See mioglasi?.

                m?-o-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasi?.

                mni-y?-hda-si?, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See mioglasi?.

Williamson:

                mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasi?.  Y.  Mniokdasi?.  T.  Miyoglasi?.

Riggs:

i-hd?-yo-mda-si?, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasi?.  See aokasi? and okasi?.

a-?-ka-si?,  v.a.  to look into, peep into?aowakasi?, aoyakasi?, aou?kasi?pi.

                ?-ka-si?,  v.  to look into.  See aokasi?, kas?i?, and okaki?.

                ka-s???, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasi? and okasi?.

The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ?kas(?)i?, ?to look into?.  In its vertitive form ?glasi?, it should mean ?to look into at oneself?, which makes very good sense for the meaning of ?mirror?.  The Yankton and one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the term m(i)ni, ?water?, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other Santee form shows that ?oil?, ihdi, could be substituted for ?water? to get the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different instrumental prefix?not sure why).  Most likely, native people were perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.

These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable similarity to ?mirrorglass?, and then only because that dialect happens to use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.

This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.  French seems to have both ?miroir? and ?glace? as words for ?mirror?, where English has ?mirror? and ?looking-glass?.  But was a term like ?mirrorglass? actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or 19th centuries?  I don?t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I think the ?coincidence? here may actually illustrate the process of creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.


Cheers,
Rory




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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sat Oct  5 19:38:04 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 20:38:04 +0100
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62370C475@EXCH10-MBX-05.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.203804.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I don't get that. ?If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
 


I think you'd be wrong.? By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.? The little phonetic tics are immaterial.? Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.? All were morphemes also.? Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.? This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.? I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.? 


________________________________
 

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.? But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.? Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.? \

It gets worse, of course.? If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.? I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."? It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes.


Bob
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From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Oct  5 18:46:23 2013
From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:46:23 -0700
Subject: town
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FB11@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.114623.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Basically, yes: Fox o?te?weni, Shawnee hoteewe, Ojibwe oodena, Cree o?te?naw, Munsee Delaware o?t??nay, Western Abenaki odana, Passamaquoddy uten, etc. There's some messiness with the ending and some languages seem to undo the contraction, but it's been tentatively reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *o?te?weni 'village'.

Dave

> I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.

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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:14:22 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:14:22 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.221422.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:19:58 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:19:58 +0000
Subject: BL and GL initials.
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.221958.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Bruce,

I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)

As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.

Best,

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce

________________________________
From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.
________________________________

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.  \

It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."  It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes.


Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sat Oct  5 22:31:40 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:31:40 +0000
Subject: town
In-Reply-To: <4AD76B5C-7F1D-4D3D-8AAC-D912B524AC38@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.223140.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

OK, then either Algonquian is the source of the Siouan and Choctaw forms or it is simply not related.  But the Algonquian terms are not Meso-American loanwords.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Costa [pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 1:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: town

Basically, yes: Fox o?te?weni, Shawnee hoteewe, Ojibwe oodena, Cree o?te?naw, Munsee Delaware o?t??nay, Western Abenaki odana, Passamaquoddy uten, etc. There's some messiness with the ending and some languages seem to undo the contraction, but it's been tentatively reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *o?te?weni 'village'.

Dave

I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family.

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From jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Oct  5 23:09:48 2013
From: jcarpentercc at HOTMAIL.COM (Jamie Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:09:48 -0600
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FD78@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.170948.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Last I read, 12 homes were destroyed, 15 people injured, no fatalities. Luckily not much damage for such a large storm, but hopefully she wasn't one of the unlucky few affected directly.

Jamie
(Bushnell, NE)

On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:14 PM, "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU> wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
> 
> Bob

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Sun Oct  6 00:44:33 2013
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:44:33 -0500
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.194433.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L."  10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Oct  6 00:53:35 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 00:53:35 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <52506C1F0200008E0009A443@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.005335.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK.



I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.



I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob
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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Sun Oct  6 01:55:50 2013
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:55:50 -0600
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <52506C1F0200008E0009A443@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.195550.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

This is a relief to hear.  Good luck to you and your family and your 
fellow townspeople

Mary


On 05/10/2013 6:44 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for 
> thinking of us.
>
> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" 
> (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a 
> couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our 
> little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing 
> businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less 
> flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable 
> damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, 
> crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on 
> a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so 
> most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be 
> hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, 
> now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but 
> apparently going to be ok.
>
> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs 
> down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of 
> the storm.
>
> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the 
> normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.
>
> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
> Catherine
>
> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
> Folks,
>
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent 
> Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the 
> University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that 
> they are all right.
>
> Bob

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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Sun Oct  6 03:30:55 2013
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:30:55 -1000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FF78@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.OCT.2013.173055.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis



On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:

> Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
>  
> I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
>  
> I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
>  
> Bob
> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Re: Wayne, NE
> 
> Hi, everyone.
> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.
> 
> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.
> 
> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  
> 
> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
> Catherine
> 
> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
> Folks,
> 
> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
> 
> Bob

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu




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From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 11:49:40 2013
From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:49:40 -0700
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <38EB1942-A5D0-436E-8B68-FE6F313A4654@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.044940.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.

Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:
> 
> I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.
> 
> Best,
> Ardis
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
>> 
>>  
>> I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
>> 
>>  
>> I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
>> 
>>  
>> Bob
>> 
>> From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
>> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> Subject: Re: Wayne, NE
>> 
>> Hi, everyone.
>> I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.
>> 
>> The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.
>> 
>> Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.  
>> 
>> Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
>> It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.  
>> 
>> Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
>> Catherine
>> 
>> >>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
>> Folks,
>> 
>> I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
> Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
> Windward Community College
> (808) 235-7466
> ardise at hawaii.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Sun Oct  6 15:13:55 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:13:55 +0000
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <38EB1942-A5D0-436E-8B68-FE6F313A4654@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.151355.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Ardis.  That's good to hear.

Bob


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis



On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:


Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK.



I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.



I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE

Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm.

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu<http://wsc.edu>)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything.

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu<mailto:ardise at hawaii.edu>




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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Sun Oct  6 15:51:12 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:51:12 +0100
Subject: BL and GL initials.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FDA3@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.165112.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Bob,
Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting. ?I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices. ?Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican. ?However I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I couldn't find anything similar in Bright. ?Any ideas anyone?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
Subject: BL and GL initials.
 


 
Hi Bruce,

I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.? :-)

As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.? The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.? I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi
 Valley Siouan GL or BL.? Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.? It's only Dakota that's changed.

Best,

Bob


________________________________
 
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.


I don't get that. ?If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
Bruce


________________________________
 From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.



 
I think you'd be wrong.? By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.? The little phonetic tics are immaterial.? Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.? All were morphemes also.? Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.? This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.? I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.? 


________________________________
 

> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.? But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.

Actually, that's backwards.? Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.? \

It gets worse, of course.? If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.? I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."? It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes. 


Bob
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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Sun Oct  6 16:03:45 2013
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:03:45 -0500
Subject: Wayne, NE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.110345.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly
mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci
family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high
plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.  
Catherine

>>> "Kathleen D. Shea"  10/06/13 6:52 AM >>>
Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.


Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:


I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It
went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m
really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.

Best,
Ardis




On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:

Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
 

I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy
Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.
 There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news
channel.   
 

I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of
the Kaw Pow Wow. 
 

Bob
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of
Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE



Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for
thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park"
(Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a
couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our
little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing
businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less
flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable
damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees,
crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a
Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most
of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One
friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now
hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but
apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs
down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the
storm. 

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the
normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything. 

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>
Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent
Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the
University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that
they are all right.

Bob







Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu













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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 17:29:30 2013
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:29:30 -0500
Subject: Miyoglasin
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC62371FB11@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.122930.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I would not go so far as the History Channel does in proclaiming northern
Georgia to have been a Maya colony, but I still believe that the maritime
trade hypothesis has some merit, whether this particular 'tamaha' word has
any relation to Totonac or not.  A Mexican archaeologist recently claims to
have discovered the remains of a boat pier in the neighborhood of El Tajin
that she believes was a Gulf trading port.  No discovery of any boats yet
that I know of, and especially not in the area of Mobile Bay, but I think
such archaeological evidence helps raise the ante in a discussion of Gulf
trade and contact.  Stay tuned....

David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Rankin, Robert L. <rankin at ku.edu> wrote:

>  Well, the fact that this is essentially the hypothesis of the History
> Channel guys, Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, who also claim to have
> "discovered" Mayan temples in North Georgia, doesn't make the theory more
> attractive.  When legit archaeologists have dug up an identifiably
> Totonacan boat in the SE U.S., I'll take it more seriously.
>
> I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term
> is reconstructible in that family.  If so, it would be a much more likely
> source for the Siouan and Muskogean terms.  BTW, the Choctaw speakers I
> worked with had "tomaha" rather than "tamaha", but I don't know how
> widespread that is.
>
> Creek "talwa" is not involved in the group.  It is a native term derived
> from the root "tal-" 'arrange, put, place, group' and appears to have good
> cognates across Muskogean.
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David
> Kaufman [dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:08 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>
>   I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon
> tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac
> tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan.
> Totonac is the central coastal Mexican language that may have been spoken
> in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating
> from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE.  This would assume of course that the Totonacs
> were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile Bay where the
> word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and
> some Algonquian languages from there.  Maybe a long shot, but given certain
> other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not
> necessarily out of the question.
>
>  Dave
>
>  David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology
> University of Kansas
>  Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
>
>>  Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting
>> resemblance.
>>  Bruce
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>  Jan,
>>
>> Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.
>>
>> *O**th??wahe* ?town? is another one of those *wanderwoerter* that has
>> similar forms in Dakotan, Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and
>> Chickasaw.  I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk.  I
>> think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name *Tomahitan*, which
>> would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi.  It's not out of the question that
>> the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences
>> don't make me feel good.  :-)
>>
>> Bob
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Jan
>> Ullrich [jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG]
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>   Dear all:
>>
>> I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may
>> think. Here are some examples:
>>
>> asp?la (from aspirin)
>> b?bela ?baby? from French
>> khukh??e ?pig? from French
>> ku?k??la  - ?cucumber?
>> kham?te ?committee?
>> pus?la ? ?cat?
>> spak?li ?spaghetti?
>>
>> I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is
>> true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the
>> case of spak?li, asp?la and pus?la, but the other ones are fully
>> standardized lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full
>> list.
>>
>> I am intrigued by Bob?s comment that oth??wahe ?town? might be borrowing
>> as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz?s
>> materials, but I could be wrong) that the word it?zipa ?bow? is a loan as
>> well.
>>
>> Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking
>> grandparents Lakotized the children?s English names because they couldn?t
>> pronounce them. For example Delores was called ??elowi??, Imogene was
>> ?Imo?ila? etc. I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could
>> be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing
>> words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very
>> reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different when the
>> majority of speakers were still monolingual.  I wouldn?t be at all
>> surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on
>> fauna and flora.
>>
>> As for ?mirror? I have always been skeptical about the ?mirror glass?
>> etymology because the analyses that involves mn? ?water? and a possessive
>> or reflexive of ?kas?i? ?to peer into? seem quite convincing and is
>> consistent across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn?t be
>> for the first time.
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *De Reuse, Willem
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>>  Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory.  I agree,
>> and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.
>>
>> Willem
>>  ------------------------------
>>  *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory
>> Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
>> *Sent:* Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Miyoglasin
>>
>> ?  It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass".  But it
>> has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT
>> a loan from English.  (Coincidences happen.   My favorite is [elkar] which
>> means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)
>>
>> ? I have to admit that I?m very skeptical of 5 syllable long
>> ?coincidences?, so it seems to me more likely that ?mirror? is a loanword
>> from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the
>> vertitive given in the new dictionary.
>>
>>
>> The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears
>> in both Williamson and Riggs:
>>
>> Riggs:
>>
>>                 mi-y?-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror, looking glass.  See
>> mioglasi?.
>>
>>                 m?-o-gla-si?, n. T. a mirror.  See mniohdasi?.
>>
>>                 mni-y?-hda-si?, n.  a looking-glass; window glass.  See
>> mioglasi?.
>>
>> Williamson:
>>
>>                 mirror, n.  Ihdiyomdasi?.  Y.  Mniokdasi?.  T.
>> Miyoglasi?.
>>
>> Riggs:
>>
>> i-hd?-yo-mda-si?, n.  a looking-glass, mirror.  T., miyoglasi?.  See
>> aokasi? and okasi?.
>>
>> a-?-ka-si?,  v.a.  to look into, peep into?aowakasi?, aoyakasi?,
>> aou?kasi?pi.
>>
>>                 ?-ka-si?,  v.  to look into.  See aokasi?, kas?i?, and
>> okaki?.
>>
>>                 ka-s???, adv.  appearing, in sight.  See aokasi? and
>> okasi?.
>>
>> The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ?kas(?)i?, ?to look into?.
>> In its vertitive form ?glasi?, it should mean ?to look into at oneself?,
>> which makes very good sense for the meaning of ?mirror?.  The Yankton and
>> one of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the
>> term m(i)ni, ?water?, rather than the undefined element /mi/.  The other
>> Santee form shows that ?oil?, ihdi, could be substituted for ?water? to get
>> the same sense (though in this case, they are apparently using a different
>> instrumental prefix?not sure why).  Most likely, native people were
>> perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still
>> liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.
>>
>> These dictionaries were developed in the 19th century, and the suite of
>> terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to
>> assume a recent reanalysis.  Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any notable
>> similarity to ?mirrorglass?, and then only because that dialect happens to
>> use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.
>>
>> This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English.
>> French seems to have both ?miroir? and ?glace? as words for ?mirror?, where
>> English has ?mirror? and ?looking-glass?.  But was a term like
>> ?mirrorglass? actually in circulation in either language in the 18th or
>> 19th centuries?  I don?t find it in my English dictionary, or in the
>> French dictionary either.  If we can document that this compound was
>> commonly used a couple of centuries ago, then perhaps the Lakhota form was
>> influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-.  Otherwise, I
>> think the ?coincidence? here may actually illustrate the process of
>> creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM  Sun Oct  6 20:51:45 2013
From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:51:45 -0500
Subject: wanonscopakmik
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.155145.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Bruce, I see on Google Maps that there is a lake called "Wononskopomuc"
just south of Lakeville, Connecticut. Does that spelling help? (I don't
have Bright's dictionary.)

The usgs.gov site has a great place-name lookup facility, but it is
currently down due to the government shutdown.


On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> Thanks Bob,
> Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting.
>  I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the
> internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices.
>  Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain
> range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from
> tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican.  However
> I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told
> was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I
> couldn't find anything similar in Bright.  Any ideas anyone?
> Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
> *Subject:* BL and GL initials.
>
>  Hi Bruce,
>
> I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.  :-)
>
> As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your
> questions about these clusters.  The back-and-forth went on for quite some
> time.  I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa
> and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi Valley Siouan GL or BL.  Accent
> in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but
> Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.  It's only Dakota that's changed.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh
> Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>   I don't get that.  If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't
> the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
>  Bruce
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
> *Subject:* Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>  I think you'd be wrong.  By accent placement rules and by morphological
> analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.  The little
> phonetic tics are immaterial.  Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go
> back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go
> back to WA or WI.  All were morphemes also.  Ordinarily the prehistory of
> these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able
> to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress
> synchronically.  This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken
> Miner was right, is a mora counting language.  I'm guessing that Dakotan is
> too.
>  ------------------------------
>
>   > Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.  But phonologically, I would
> count glV- as one syllable.
>
> Actually, that's backwards.  Phonetically BLV and GLV *may* form single
> syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited
> above.  \
>
> It gets worse, of course.  If the structure is CVglV the syllabification
> rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second
> syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.  I
> remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because
> he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."
> It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two
> syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single
> syllables for yet other purposes.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
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From rgraczyk at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  6 23:17:06 2013
From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:17:06 -0400
Subject: Wayne, NE
In-Reply-To: <525143900200008E0009A568@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.OCT.2013.191706.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Ten inches of snow in Pryor the other day.


Randy



-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU>
To: SIOUAN <SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 10:03 am
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE


Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.  
Catherine

>>> "Kathleen D. Shea"  10/06/13 6:52 AM >>>

Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.


Kathy Shea

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 5, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Ardis Eschenberg <ardise at HAWAII.EDU> wrote:



I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.


Best,
Ardis







On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Rankin, Robert L. wrote:



Thanks Catherine.  Glad to hear everyone came through, and mostly OK. 
 

I also just saw on the "crawl" at the bottom of the CNN screen that Macy Nebraska, HQ of the Omaha Tribe, was hit about the same time last night.  There were two injuries but no fatalities according to the news channel.   
 

I hope the weather is treating Oklahoma better.  This is the weekend of the Kaw Pow Wow. 
 

Bob


From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Catherine Rudin [carudin1 at WSC.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 7:44 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Wayne, NE



Hi, everyone.
I am fine and so is Ali and our house and the college.  Thanks for thinking of us.

The tornado passed about a mile from us, through the "industrial park" (Yes, Wayne has an Industrial Park, those of you who've been here at a couple of Siouan and Caddoan colleges will be amazed to hear.)  Our little airport was damaged and a number of small manufacturing businesses and warehouses and a convenience store were more or less flattened. Our vet's office lost its roof, and there was considerable damage to the countryside just east of Wayne: a few houses, trees, crops.  Fortunately the industrial park was almost deserted at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon; everyone had just clocked out and gone home, so most of the damage was to empty buildings; no people around to be hurt.  One friend of ours was pretty badly injured; caught in his car, now hospitalized with multiple broken bones and other injuries, but apparently going to be ok.

Over in our part of town we had golf-ball hail and a few tree limbs down, lost power for a while; no real damage considering the size of the storm. 

Bob, do you have my current email?  (carudin1 at wsc.edu)
It's very odd that your message bounced; I've been getting about the normal flow of email all day; servers haven't been down or anything. 

Anyway, thanks for your concern and greetings to all--
Catherine

>>> "Rankin, Robert L." 10/05/13 5:18 PM >>>

Folks,

I just saw on CNN that Wayne, NE has had an F4 tornado.  I sent Catherine Rudin a message inquiring about her and her family but the University server there bounced the message.  I know we all hope that they are all right.

Bob







Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu












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From rankin at KU.EDU  Mon Oct  7 01:15:14 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 01:15:14 +0000
Subject: Weather in Siouan Country.
Message-ID: <MON.7.OCT.2013.011514.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Boy, the weather here in the plains is no joke, is it?

Bob

________________________________
Ten inches of snow in Pryor the other day.

Randy



Thanks, Ardis.
I had heard there was some damage in Macy, but no details.  Mostly mobile homes destroyed, according to the Omaha paper.  Glad the Saunsoci family are ok.  Yes, scary weather, and with Colorado floods and high plains blizzards lots of members of the list have been impacted.
Catherine


Thanks, everyone, for letting us know that you're alright.

I spoke with my Saunsoci family yesterday, and they are all fine.  It went right through the area near the school in Macy.  Catherine, I?m really glad to hear you guys were spared.  Scary weather.
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Mon Oct  7 10:36:16 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:36:16 +0100
Subject: wanonscopakmik
In-Reply-To: <CADWiNGyRDqe909hyeSQOpyUYt5BKP+v5mAE_B3qTAG-jU=x2hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.OCT.2013.113616.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Yes it does thank you. ?In fact my friend over in America had corrected my spelling. ?I always mistake an American pronunciation of -o- for an -a- . ?I was once introduced to a Lakota lady called "Bonny Black Bear" and wondered why she was called "Barny". ?The same mistake. ?The name is mentioned in Bright and is said to mean "rocks at the bend in the lake" in Mohican.

Bruce


________________________________
 From: George Wilmes <george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013, 21:51
Subject: Re: wanonscopakmik
 


Hi Bruce, I see on Google Maps that there is a lake called "Wononskopomuc" just south of Lakeville, Connecticut. Does that spelling help? (I don't have Bright's dictionary.)

The usgs.gov site has a great place-name lookup facility, but it is currently down due to the government shutdown.




On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, shokooh Ingham <shokoohbanou at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Thanks Bob,
>Yes, as you say, I am catching up on a huge backlog, all very interesting. ?I have been over in Connecticut for three weeks and couldn't use the internet for fear of upsetting my hosts computer, both of us being novices. ?Anyway it's all very interesting. I managed to look up the local mountain range , the takonic range, and found in Bright's dictionary that it is from tahkenek 'in the woods', e meaning shewa, and is probably Mohican. ?However I was not able to find the local lake 'Lakeville lake', which I was told was called wanonscopamik. It looks like a good Algonquian work, but I couldn't find anything similar in Bright. ?Any ideas anyone?
>Bruce
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
>Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:19
>Subject: BL and GL initials.
> 
>
>
>Hi Bruce,
>
>I think you must be catching up on a lot of back email.? :-)
>
>As you get more up-to-date I think you'll find the answers to all your questions about these clusters.? The back-and-forth went on for quite some time.? I collected all vocabulary from Dakota, Omaha, Ponca, Osage, Kansa and Quapaw that has a reflex of Mississippi
 Valley Siouan GL or BL.? Accent in these words DOES in fact fall on the initial syllable in all but Dakotan, exactly as you predict it should.? It's only Dakota that's changed.
>
>Best,
>
>Bob
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of shokooh Ingham [shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK]
>Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:38 PM
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>
>I don't get that. ?If gluha and bluha were three syllables, wouldn't the stress be glUha and blUha rather than gluhA and bluhA?
>Bruce
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "Rankin, Robert L." <rankin at KU.EDU>
>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
>Sent: Monday, 9 September 2013, 16:15
>Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.
>
>
>
>I think you'd be wrong.? By accent placement rules and by morphological analysis the GL and BL clusters count as two syllables.? The little phonetic tics are immaterial.? Fortunately or unfortunately the Gs all go back to full syllables, mostly KI while the Bs of the BL clusters all go back to WA or WI.? All were morphemes also.? Ordinarily the prehistory of these things might not matter, but the accent rules still seem to be able to treat the Gs and Bs as morae for purposes of assigning stress synchronically.? This is especially true of Hochunk which, assuming Ken Miner was right, is a mora counting language.? I'm guessing that Dakotan is too.? 
>
>
>________________________________
> 
>
>
>> Phonetically, there is a schwa in there.? But phonologically, I would count glV- as one syllable.
>
>Actually, that's backwards.? Phonetically BLV and GLV may form single syllables but phonologically they count as two for the reasons cited above.? \
>
>It gets worse, of course.? If the structure is CVglV the syllabification rules for Siouan languages assign the /g/ phonetically to the second syllable along with the initial member of all other CC clusters.? I remember telling an Australian linguist that and being laughed at because he believed that syllable boundaries could be derived from a "universal."? It's all very messy, but it's a fact that CL clusters can behave as two syllables for various phonological purposes and perhaps as single syllables for yet other purposes. 
>
>
>Bob
>
>
>
>
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From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU  Thu Oct 10 19:41:47 2013
From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:41:47 -0600
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6CDB@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.134147.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,
I think by radical he means that the /y/ is part of the word's root rather
than just a result of /i/ + /u/ coming together. His reasoning is that the
Hoc?k cognate has /zh/ between /i/ and /u/, and /zh/ is not naturally
euphonious in that location. Thus, he also expects whatever is in the
equivalent place of the Chiwere word, the /y/ between the /i/ and /u/, to
be part of the word itself rather than surface euphony. Whether or not
Dorsey is correct, I don't know, but I believe that's what he's saying and
the reasoning for it. Btw, Helmbrecht and Lehmann in their dictionary have *
wii??k* for 'gun' in Hoc?k.
-Saul


On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for
> ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:****
>
> ** **
>
> i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)****
>
> ** **
>
> And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making
> ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).****
>
> ** **
>
> Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:****
>
> ** **
>
> *?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word
> from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the
> compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that
> the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?*
>
> ** **
>
> Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the
> Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the
> Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone
> have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I
> could find.****
>
> ** **
>
> Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.****
>
> ** **
>
> *j?tsch?* (Maximilian)****
>
> His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y?
> sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with
> his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).****
>
> ** **
>
> *E-yock-a* (Major Albert Green)****
>
> Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck?
> has me curious.****
>
> ** **
>
> *i-yo-?e?* (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)****
>
> ** **
>
> *uy?ci* (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)****
>
> ** **
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
>   ??
>
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Thu Oct 10 19:25:01 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:25:01 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.142501.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)

And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:

?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.

j?tsch? (Maximilian)
His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck? has me curious.

i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Thu Oct 10 20:24:55 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6CDB@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.OCT.2013.152455.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I already sent you Hochank term = wiizh?k.

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:

 

i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)

 

And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).

 

Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:

 

?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?

 

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

 

Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.

 

j?tsch? (Maximilian)

His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).

 

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)

Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck? has me curious.

 

i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

 

uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ??  
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Oct 11 08:19:27 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:19:27 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <EB27BF58FFEC4BDDA03D6122F7B28511@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.031927.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,

the Hooca?k term wiiz?uk comes from the word z?uuk (or z?uuz?uk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiiz?uk = wa-hi-z?uuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hooca?k it?s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hooca?k word hoji? ?hit? can also be derived in the same way (wiiroji? = wa-hi-hoji?) to form a noun, but it doesn?t mean ?gun? but rather ?bat? as in ?baseball bat?.

Best,
Iren

Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu









I already sent you Hochank term = wiizh?k.


 

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
 


I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria 
term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with 
this:
 
i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? 
(hit/strike)
 
And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony 
thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).
 
Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he 
says:
 
?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to 
derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed 
making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- 
shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?
 
Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no 
because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been 
able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by 
?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any 
related cognates that I could find.
 
Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that 
may help.
 
j?tsch? (Maximilian)
His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right 
into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes 
with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).
 
E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point 
but his ?ck? has me curious.
 
i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden 
(1862)
 
uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Sky Campbell, B. 
A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org
 
  ??  
 		 	   		  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Fri Oct 11 13:28:27 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:28:27 -0500
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W344871CDD6CC4755A24503BB1F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.082827.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

That makes perfect sense!  I?ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochi?e (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has ?iy?je?.  Jimm?s dictionary has several variants of this.  I?ll see what else I can find.

As far as ?shoot? we have a couple.  First is the basic ?kuje? (seems to match your ?guuc?) but I haven?t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn?t to say that ?kuje? by itself can?t be used to indicate shooting a gun?I just haven?t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term ?iyuj? kuje? to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have ?ma kuje? to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that ?kuje? would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.

Our term for a war club is ?wiruj?/wiroj?? which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + uj? (hit/strike).

Thank you very much for this!

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

Hi Sky,

the Hooca?k term wiiz?uk comes from the word z?uuk (or z?uuz?uk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiiz?uk = wa-hi-z?uuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hooca?k it?s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hooca?k word hoji? ?hit? can also be derived in the same way (wiiroji? = wa-hi-hoji?) to form a noun, but it doesn?t mean ?gun? but rather ?bat? as in ?baseball bat?.

Best,
Iren
________________________________
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM<mailto:jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
I already sent you Hochank term = wiizh?k.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)

And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:

?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.

j?tsch? (Maximilian)
His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck? has me curious.

i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 11 20:21:50 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:21:50 +0000
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6D62@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.OCT.2013.202150.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I don't know if Dhegiha will help, but 'shoot' in all of its meanings is kkuje and 'gun' is wah?tt?, i.e., something that makes a loud characteristic noise.  In some of the Eastern Siouan languages 'gun' is the same as 'bow'.



Bob

________________________________


That makes perfect sense!  I?ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochi?e (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has ?iy?je?.  Jimm?s dictionary has several variants of this.  I?ll see what else I can find.

As far as ?shoot? we have a couple.  First is the basic ?kuje? (seems to match your ?guuc?) but I haven?t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn?t to say that ?kuje? by itself can?t be used to indicate shooting a gun?I just haven?t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term ?iyuj? kuje? to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have ?ma kuje? to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that ?kuje? would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.

Our term for a war club is ?wiruj?/wiroj?? which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + uj? (hit/strike).

Thank you very much for this!

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

Hi Sky,

the Hooca?k term wiiz?uk comes from the word z?uuk (or z?uuz?uk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiiz?uk = wa-hi-z?uuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.

What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hooca?k it?s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.

The Hooca?k word hoji? ?hit? can also be derived in the same way (wiiroji? = wa-hi-hoji?) to form a noun, but it doesn?t mean ?gun? but rather ?bat? as in ?baseball bat?.

Best,
Iren
________________________________
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM<mailto:jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
I already sent you Hochank term = wiizh?k.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"

I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:

i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)

And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).

Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:

?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?

Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.

Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.

j?tsch? (Maximilian)
His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).

E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck? has me curious.

i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)

uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Mon Oct 14 01:23:36 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:23:36 -0500
Subject: F.Y.I.   RE: PLURAL VS DUAL
Message-ID: <SUN.13.OCT.2013.202336.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

This I found from linguist Lila Wistrand Robinson?s definitive statement on the dual plural ?-wi? and the regular plural ?-?e.?

This said, and I quote:

         [NOTE: For only two items or persons, the verb suffix ?-wi? indicating third person dual ?two? or ?they two? is added to the noun or its modifier in the identification sentence or description sentence.  ?Ch?xga n?wewi ke/ki,  They are ~ there are two cows.?  Without using the number ?n?we? (two), only using ?-wi?, we know we are talking about two items.  ?War?jewi ke/ki, They are ~ there are two tables.?  The dual ?-wi? and plural ?-?e? of third person identification or description are not used with nouns or noun phrases in any other position (subject, object, location, etc.), for they have no plural suffix.  ?Am?na n?we hag?nda ke/ki,  I want two chair.? (LWR)]. 
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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Tue Oct 15 03:57:58 2013
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:57:58 -1000
Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A0631A6D62@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.OCT.2013.175758.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I can?t help but join in the fun with cognates here.  

In Omaha, whistle is zude (and you can get zuzude), which would be cognate with the whistle that your word for gun seems to originate from.  Gun is Omaha is not based on whistle though.

In Omaha, a gun is wahutoNthiN.  HutoN, the root, is however the word used for the bellowing that elks make when mating (and August is oNpHoN hutoNi ke ?when the elks bellow?).  

So, the underlying thought is still cognate even though the root chosen isn?t.  Makes me miss being a linguist.  

Please excuse if someone else already said all this.  I was on vacation 10 days and didn?t read email.  I have 700 more to go.  I just loved the alignment/non-alignment of thought and root here and couldn?t resist a comment!  :D


Respectfully,
Ardis




On Oct 11, 2013, at 3:28 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote:

> That makes perfect sense!  I?ll do some digging but what immediately comes to mind is our term for August which is Huma Yochi?e (Elk Whistle).  Wistrand-Robinson (1972) has ?iy?je?.  Jimm?s dictionary has several variants of this.  I?ll see what else I can find.
>  
> As far as ?shoot? we have a couple.  First is the basic ?kuje? (seems to match your ?guuc?) but I haven?t seen that specifically used as far as shooting a gun but rather shoot in general or shooting a bow.  That isn?t to say that ?kuje? by itself can?t be used to indicate shooting a gun?I just haven?t come across a specific precedent yet.  However, I do have the term ?iyuj? kuje? to mean shooting a gun.  Then again, I also have ?ma kuje? to specifically say to shoot with an arrow.  So based on that, I would think that ?kuje? would be ok by itself to indicate shooting in general in conversation but you can specify if need be.
>  
> Our term for a war club is ?wiruj?/wiroj?? which looks to be wa- (something) + i- (with) + ru- (by hand) + uj? (hit/strike).
>  
> Thank you very much for this!
>  
> Sky Campbell, B. A.
> Language Director
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111
> sky at omtribe.org
>  
> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:19 AM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
>  
> Hi Sky,
> 
> the Hooca?k term wiiz?uk comes from the word z?uuk (or z?uuz?uk), which means "loud whistle". This word is used to describe the kind of sounds male elks make during mating season. Wiiz?uk = wa-hi-z?uuk = somthing one emits a powerful whistle with.
> 
> What is the word for shoot in IOM? In Hooca?k it?s guuc and a gun may occasionally be referred to as wiiguc (something one shoots with) as well.
> 
> The Hooca?k word hoji? ?hit? can also be derived in the same way (wiiroji? = wa-hi-hoji?) to form a noun, but it doesn?t mean ?gun? but rather ?bat? as in ?baseball bat?.
> 
> Best,
> Iren
> 
> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:24:55 -0500
> From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> 
> I already sent you Hochank term = wiizh?k.
>  
> From: Campbell, Sky
> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> Subject: Otoe-Missouria term for "gun"
>  
> I?m trying to figure out the breakdown of the Otoe-Missouria term for ?gun? (iyuj?).  My first instinct was to go with this:
>  
> i- (instrumental prefix and/or ?with?) + uj? (hit/strike)
>  
> And in there, the ?y? would occur for the sake of euphony thus making ?iyuj?? (strike/hit with).
>  
> Then I saw Dorsey?s entry with his term ?i-yu-?ci?? where he says:
>  
> ?Were it not for the W. eq., we would be inclined to derive this word from uci?, to hit, with the instrumental prefix, i-, changed making the compound i-uci?, changed for euphony to iyu-ci; but the W. izhu- shows that the ?y? in iyu- is radical.?
>  
> Dorsey covered what my exact thoughts were but said no because of the Hoc?nk cognate and that it is ?radical.?  I haven?t been able to find the Hoc?k term anywhere and have no idea what he meant by ?radical.?  Anyone have any ideas?  I haven?t had any luck with any related cognates that I could find.
>  
> Here are some spellings of this term I?ve come across that may help.
>  
> j?tsch? (Maximilian)
> His forms don?t have the initial ?i-? but just jump right into the ?y? sound.  He also ends with ??? (eh/ay sound) but clearly goes with ??? with his term ?strike? (uh-tschin).
>  
> E-yock-a (Major Albert Green)
> Linguistic precision definitely isn?t Green?s strong point but his ?ck? has me curious.
>  
> i-yo-?e? (Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden (1862)
>  
> uy?ci (Wistrand-Robinson, 1972)
>  
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>  
> Sky Campbell, B. A.
> Language Director
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111
> sky at omtribe.org
>  
> 
>   ?? 
> 
>   ??  

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7466
ardise at hawaii.edu




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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Tue Oct 15 18:50:43 2013
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:50:43 -0600
Subject: Regina Pustet
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.125043.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last 
February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large 
number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of 
this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to 
me was second or third hand news.
 	According to the best current information I have, she got some 
kind of food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For 
about a year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
 	A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with 
Regina's mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a 
proper memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's 
considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, 
including Lakota studies.
 	Best wishes to all of you.
 	David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu


From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU  Tue Oct 15 18:55:54 2013
From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:55:54 -0700
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1310150926300.29476@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.115554.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

What a terrible, terrible shame. Thank you for telling us, David.

Marianne

--On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:50 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S 
<david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:

> It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last
> February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large
> number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of
> this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to
> me was second or third hand news.
>  	According to the best current information I have, she got some kind of
> food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For about a
> year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
>  	A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with Regina's
> mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a proper
> memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's
> considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, including
> Lakota studies.
>  	Best wishes to all of you.
>  	David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu


From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU  Tue Oct 15 19:49:20 2013
From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 14:49:20 -0500
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <C112F98DEEE931FDA4E10E1B@[192.168.7.112]>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.OCT.2013.144920.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

How very sad!  I've missed Regina at the last few conferences; hoped she might rejoin us some time. 

>>> Marianne Mithun <mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU> 10/15/2013 1:55 PM >>>
What a terrible, terrible shame. Thank you for telling us, David.

Marianne

--On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:50 PM -0600 ROOD DAVID S 
<david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:

> It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last
> February.  Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large
> number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.  I only learned of
> this about 10 days ago.  I didn't report it until I could confirm what to
> me was second or third hand news.
>  According to the best current information I have, she got some kind of
> food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.  For about a
> year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
>  A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with Regina's
> mother.  She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a proper
> memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's
> considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, including
> Lakota studies.
>  Best wishes to all of you.
>  David
>
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
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From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK  Wed Oct 16 14:50:43 2013
From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (shokooh Ingham)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:50:43 +0100
Subject: Regina Pustet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1310150926300.29476@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.OCT.2013.155043.0100.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear David,
I'm very sorry to hear that. ?I met her at our conferences and often corresponded with her about Lakota. ?I always thought that her work was very innovative and enjoyed talking with her. ? I was looking forward to seeing more work by her.?What a shame for one so young.
Yours
Bruce



On Tuesday, 15 October 2013, 21:52, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at COLORADO.EDU> wrote:
 
It is with deep sadness that I report that Regina Pustet passed away last 
February.? Many of you knew her from our conferences or from the large 
number of papers that she wrote about Lakota grammar.? I only learned of 
this about 10 days ago.? I didn't report it until I could confirm what to 
me was second or third hand news.
??? According to the best current information I have, she got some 
kind of food poisoning in a restaurant and was unable to recover.? For 
about a year, I'm told, she simply got weaker and weaker.
??? A friend of mine from the Univ. of Cologne is in contact with 
Regina's mother.? She (my friend) and I hope to be able to prepare a 
proper memorial essay before long, acknowledging and honoring Regina's 
considerable contributions to several areas of linguistics, 
including Lakota studies.
??? Best wishes to all of you.
??? David


David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 18 20:54:23 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:54:23 +0000
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W144EFD65EFF6B5990332A7BB380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.205423.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Iren,



Did I already answer this one?  Seems to me I may have.



> Hooca?k grizzly bear is ma?a?co (definitely with a voiceless affricate).



Going back to *th.  The initial /ma?/ may go back to *wa- if 'grizzly' is bimorphemic.

> As for cow elk, I?m not aware of there being a specific word for a female elk, generally elk is hu?u?wa?



This is the 'cow elk' term historically.  The cognate is oopha? in several languages,  so that's one of the things that happens to *ph in Hoochunk.

==============================

The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

Bob



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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Fri Oct 18 21:37:58 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:37:58 +0000
Subject: Locatives and wa- problems.
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC623724A01@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.213758.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

? The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

For Omaha, I have ??pHo? and mo?t?H?.  It looks like the ?grizzly? term got diminutivized somewhere in Omaha history.  The ?elk? term agrees with Hooc?k in having nasalization of the first vowel as well as the second, and, as far as I know, in not being gender specific.

Sorry to hear about the broken hip.  Good luck on your recovery.

Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:54 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Locatives and wa- problems.

Iren,

Did I already answer this one?  Seems to me I may have.

> Hooca?k grizzly bear is ma?a?co (definitely with a voiceless affricate).

Going back to *th.  The initial /ma?/ may go back to *wa- if 'grizzly' is bimorphemic.

> As for cow elk, I?m not aware of there being a specific word for a female elk, generally elk is hu?u?wa?

This is the 'cow elk' term historically.  The cognate is oopha? in several languages,  so that's one of the things that happens to *ph in Hoochunk.

==============================

The "true aspirates" in Omaha should generally have voiced counterparts in Hochunk.  There may be interesting exceptions.  I'd like to check 'cow elk' and 'grizzly'.  Hochunk should have voiced stops in cognates for Dhegiha oophaN and maNtho.

Bob


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From rankin at KU.EDU  Fri Oct 18 20:36:49 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:36:49 +0000
Subject: clusters in potential loan words
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W44428A864FB1782E1DBB6DBB380@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.OCT.2013.203649.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Iren,



> In Chiwere dw clusters are similarly suspect. And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey?s Law vowel.

> Would this be cVw in Hooca?k? As in wica?wa?s ?big cat, squash?? Or reecawa ?belly button?? ...na?a?cawa ?ear??

Sorry to be so long answering, if I forgot earlier.  I got thrown in the Krankenhaus with a broken pelvis, and it's gotten in the way of my email correspondence.  Yes, those words are what I was referring to in at least some instances.  The ones that turn up in Lakota with gm or kw clusters are "foreign" and probably of Algonquian origin.  They should be examined very carefully.  On the other hand, 'ear' and perhaps other examples have a *tp cluster, and they may be native Siouan vocabulary.



All the best,



Bob
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Oct 21 11:36:46 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 06:36:46 -0500
Subject: clusters in potential loan words
In-Reply-To: <5E87B4AFA471B543884CD3128A7C8CC6237249AE@EXCH10-DRMBX-01.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.OCT.2013.063646.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Many thanks for this, Bob! 

I hope that you will feel better soon!

All the best for a speedy recovery,
Iren

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:36:49 +0000
From: rankin at KU.EDU
Subject: Re: clusters in potential loan words
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu








Hi Iren,

 

> In Chiwere dw clusters are similarly suspect.
And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey?s Law vowel.




> Would this be
cVw in Hooca?k? As in
wica?wa?s ?big cat, squash?? Or reecawa ?belly button??
...na?a?cawa ?ear??



Sorry to be so long answering, if I forgot earlier.  I got thrown in the
Krankenhaus with a broken pelvis, and it's gotten in the way of my email correspondence.  Yes, those words are what I was referring to in at least some instances.  The ones that turn up in Lakota with
gm or kw clusters are "foreign" and probably of Algonquian origin.  They should be examined very carefully.  On the other hand, 'ear' and perhaps other examples have a *tp cluster, and they may be native Siouan vocabulary. 


 

All the best,

 

Bob

 		 	   		  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Mon Oct 28 19:21:10 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:21:10 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.142110.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Mon Oct 28 20:49:16 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:49:16 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.204916.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Mon Oct 28 21:49:15 2013
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 21:49:15 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FBF@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.214915.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

If rugri is Otoe for ?lightning?, the initial ru- would probably just be the instrumental prefix for ?hand?, wouldn?t it?  The *gr- > l- sound shift should only apply to Kaw and Osage.

In Omaha, the word for ?electricity? is rigrize.  That should be the same word as Otoe rugri, plus a determiner *-ze.

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:16 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??
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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Mon Oct 28 20:36:20 2013
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:36:20 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.153620.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky,

The Ks term that Dorsey writes as "Lu" is more properly lo (or maybe loo --
you'd have to ask Bob about the vowel length on this one). Dorsey writes
most instances of KS /o/ with the grapheme u, presumably because of his
long-standing OP influence or maybe 'cos it's articulated a little higher
than English /o/. I can also say that Ks and Os /l/ in the most modern
period is a reflex of some velar plus some approximant, probably *gl in the
case of Ks, as can be seen in certain conservative names like gledaN,
'hawk.' So, lo is probably a reflex of *glo, which is surely cognate with
Maximilian's IOM "gron," though I can't account for the presence or absence
of nasalization. That said, in Ks, lo definitely refers not to thunder, but
to what Dorsey calls the "Thuder-being," probably the thunder bird, and the
respective clan named after said being. Now, when added to hottaN,
'characteristic sound,' you get lohottaN, 'thunder,' which literally refers
to the characteristic sound of the thunder bird. I know nothing about *lo
li or *lo lu in Ks; if it exists, it's news to me. But that's all I got,
and I'm not around a dictionary right now.

All the best,
-Justin


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms
> for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?****
>
> ** **
>
> For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s
> terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am
> trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is
> pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term
> would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on
> what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other
> terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as
> shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email
> formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source
> has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are
> just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives
> lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the
> reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is
> somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.****
>
> ** **
>
> Any thoughts?****
>
> ** **
>
> Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so
> figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about
> lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:****
>
> ** **
>
> rugri/rugr?****
>
> ** **
>
> Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes,
> ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year,
> the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire,
> making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And
> with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me
> thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says
> ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri
> (return home).****
>
> ** **
>
> Does anyone have any information on that?****
>
> ** **
>
> And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I
> mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as
> ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other
> possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes
> the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes
> that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful,
> incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24
> (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed
> of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word,
> uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine,
> supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?****
>
> ** **
>
> So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and
> I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions
> and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than
> ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends
> on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off
> the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and
> that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge?
> (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).****
>
> ** **
>
> This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information
> anyone might have on this.****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
>   ??
>
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Mon Oct 28 21:15:55 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:15:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <f607fc7a0e6f40d3b7623f69e10c6376@BY2PR08MB048.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.161555.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 00:00:24 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:00:24 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FBF@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.OCT.2013.190024.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.


From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

 

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

 

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugr?

 

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ??  


  ??  
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 10:01:38 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 05:01:38 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4F4F@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.050138.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Sky,

here are all the words I know of in Hooca?k that have something to do with thunder and lightning:

k?oo - thunder (used as noun or verb)
rujax - loud flash of lightning, loud thunderclap, sound of a thunderstorm

(ja?a?p) hakiwares - forked lightning
hoja?p(re) - struck by lightning
hotaha?ha?p - lightning storm off in the distance
ja?a?ja?p - lighting, flashes of lightning

... and apart from the weather phenomena:
Waka?ja - Thunder Clan

Anyway, I hope this helps.
Best,
Iren

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:21:10 -0500
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.? For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder. Any thoughts? Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have: rugri/rugr? Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home). Does anyone have any information on that? And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.? So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)). This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this. Sky Campbell, B. A.Language DirectorOtoe-Missouria Tribe580-723-4466 ext. 111sky at omtribe.org 

  ??   		 	   		  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Tue Oct 29 13:43:29 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:43:29 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <92DCD96AF9F94441A11438C559BF3638@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.084329.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities ?.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

and

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??
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From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 15:24:39 2013
From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:24:39 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FF7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.102439.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky,

-jax would be the sound part of the word... gijax means "splash". Not sure exactly what kind of sounds are all covered by -jax

Iren
 Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?   ??   		 	   		  
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 29 23:32:11 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:32:11 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B4FF7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.OCT.2013.183211.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element ?wa-.?   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob?s discussion and comparison of ?ta? (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

 

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities J.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

 

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

 

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

 

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

 

and

 

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

 

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

 

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

 

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugr?

 

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ??  


  ??  


  ??  
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Oct 30 17:30:04 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:30:04 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <9F0CA58394CA409DB2B0D9E0457DCF9B@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.123004.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I know they are different but what I?m referring to is when I see a word like ??ita?, it is hard to determine if the ?ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn?t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element ?wa-.?   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob?s discussion and comparison of ?ta? (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities ?.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

and

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??

  ??
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Wed Oct 30 18:03:40 2013
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:03:40 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B5305@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.130340.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Generally, you can think that ?-da? will be ?at/ there.?  I haven?t come upon many uses of the ?-ta? (big; great).

From: Campbell, Sky 
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I?m referring to is when I see a word like ??ita?, it is hard to determine if the ?ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn?t a context available.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element ?wa-.?   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob?s discussion and comparison of ?ta? (big/ large).

 

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

 

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities J.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

 

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

 

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

 

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

 

and

 

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

 

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.

 

 

From: Campbell, Sky 

Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

 

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

 

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

 

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

 

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

 

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

 

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

 

Rory

 

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

 

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

 

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

 

rugri/rugr?

 

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

 

Does anyone have any information on that?

 

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

 

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

 

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

 

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ??  


  ??  


  ??  


  ??  
-------------- next part --------------
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Oct 30 18:18:31 2013
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:18:31 -0500
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <10BCD7F34828433AB07386BAA28EA4DE@JGAsusPC>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.131831.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Me either.  The only one that comes to mind right now is ?Wadota.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:04 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Generally, you can think that ?-da? will be ?at/ there.?  I haven?t come upon many uses of the ?-ta? (big; great).

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I?m referring to is when I see a word like ??ita?, it is hard to determine if the ?ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn?t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element ?wa-.?   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob?s discussion and comparison of ?ta? (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities ?.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

and

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??

  ??

  ??
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Oct 30 19:41:08 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:41:08 +0000
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436A21E7B5305@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.194108.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

To my knowledge (which, when it comes to Chiwere isn't great), -ta can never mean or refer to 'big, great'.  Only th?, with the clearly nasal vowel, can be 'big, great'.  I'm not saying you don't find it occasionally written and/or translated with an oral vowel, but if you do, it was presumably a pronunciation mistake by someone.  I can't recall my discussion of this with Jimm.  Maybe he still has the text and can refresh my 74 year-old memory.  It's possible we were talking about a mixture of topics where all this will make better sense, but this is my understanding at the moment.



I have some contributions to the thunder/lightning discussion too.


Quapaw terms of interest.

hw[ = headword
def[ = definition, i.e., English translation.
pos[ = part of speech.
rem[ = remarks


hw[ditt?ttoxi
def[thunder, one of the sounds of
pos[

hw[ditt?xi
def[discharge, make a bang
pos[v
1sg[bd?ttoxi
2sg[tt?ttoxi

hw[kan?ni, kan?n??
def[thunder
pos[n
rem[ganin? ( OM)

hw[kan?tt??ka (OM)
def[thunder, loud rolling
pos[n

hw[kan???ke
def[thunder, distant
pos[n
1sg[prob. kan?+??ka
2sg[also gano??ge (OM)


hw[id?
def[do, go, used with lightning
pos[v
rem[di??ba id?

hw[di??ba
def[lightning, sheet
pos[n

hw[di??ba id?
def[lightning, to sheet
pos[v
rem[to strike

hw[dikd?ze [?ik??ze]
def[lightning, forked
pos[noun.  Underlying form restored by analysis of OM?s phonetic form. (RLR)

Other possible words of interest:

hw[kn?
def[curse, revile
pos[v
1sg[akn??
2sg[dakn??
This would be the cognate of the gr? or gr? set of words in other languages.


My additional material from Kaw (Kansa) will follow in a separate mailing.



Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I?m referring to is when I see a word like ??ita?, it is hard to determine if the ?ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn?t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element ?wa-.?   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob?s discussion and comparison of ?ta? (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from ?ida? (there) or is short for ?dana? (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term ?Nitanga? as ?Great Waves? as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wak?nda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I?ve seen suggest it is a contracted ?dana? (t?nga/t?nka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of ?hand? for ?ru-? is an interesting one.  I?ll add it to the list of possibilities ?.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be ?out there? is the idea of the possessive ?gra-? merging with ?ra-? (by mouth) which has me wondering about the ?warhoop? that Maximilian mentioned with his term ?gra-ah.?  This makes me think of the verb ?? to maybe say ?gra??? (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like ?he made his own? as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal ?gron? that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term ?rujax? refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe ? fire writing (he spelled it ?Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah?)

and

Wak?nda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as ?fire writing by the Great Spirit.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

??ta = ocean ?big water?.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root ?ta? and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between ?wakan (snake)? and ?Wakanda (God/ Thunders)?.


From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term ??ita? doesn?t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE ?Coming from the Water?).

If Kaw has the underlying ?gr? as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian?s ?gron.?  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern ?rugri? (lightning) could have originally been pronounced ?gr? (?grugri? perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the ?gri? portion refers to ?returning home? or something along those lines.

I?ve attached Dorsey?s paper for those interested.  My mention of ?Lu? is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned ?hawk.?  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, ?These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has i?gr??-hutto? for ?thunder?, apparently meaning ?the cry of an i?gr???.  Outside of that context, i?gr?? is the base word for a ?cat?, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gr?? seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ?grumbling? or ?cussing?.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-gr??a for a ?war-whoop?.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the ?Gru? clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahk?.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ?sacred? or ?holy? is xub?, presumably from *xo (?holy?) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ?ita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I?ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(?), which presumably just means either ?thunder? or ?thunderbird? in MVS.)


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I?m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for ?thunder? and ?lightning.?

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian?s terms for thunder which are ?gron-gron? and ?wahkonda-gron-gron?.  I am trying to figure out what his term ?gron? is.  Maximilian notes the ?on? is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal ???.  So this term would be ?gr?? or the reduplicated version ?gr?gr?.?  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term ?gra-ah? (gra?a) which he has as shout or ?give the warhoop.?  The other is his term ?gro?n-r?? (email formatting won?t let me show the accented ??? above the ?o? like the source has it) which would be ?gr?re? which he translates as ?great.?  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as ?w?hkonda-gron? (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I?m wondering if this ?gr?? is somehow related to our current ?k?o? for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian?s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn?t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugr?

Then I was reading Dorsey?s ?The Religions of Siouan Tribes? and he notes, ?The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.?  With ?Lu?, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with ?r? and ?l? being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our ?rugri? and has me wondering if our ?rugri? perhaps says ?thunder beings returned home (or here?)? (ru/lu ? thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I?m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of ?Wak?nda? being translated as ?great serpent? (wak? + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, ?great serpent? seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that ?In the Dakota language, wa-kan? means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;?  And in ?Early Western Travels ? 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, ?This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.?

So that got me thinking about our term waxo?ita/xo?ita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that ?waxo-? is related to the ?wak?? that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the ?great mysterious one? rather than ?great serpent.?  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where ?xo-? is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks? translation of William Whitman?s term ?mixoge? (berdache?mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I?m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>


  ??

  ??

  ??

  ??
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From rankin at KU.EDU  Wed Oct 30 22:06:09 2013
From: rankin at KU.EDU (Rankin, Robert L.)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:06:09 +0000
Subject: "Thunder" information.  More stuff.
Message-ID: <WED.30.OCT.2013.220609.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Terms in which one or another cognate gets translated ?thunder? in the Comparative Siouan Dictionary.  (Although I can?t for the life of me figure out how that applied in the first case (below).  It must have been there somewhere.  Bob)



GLOSS[ growl ?xr? >grunt



GRAMCAT[ V



PSI[ *xr??



PMV[ *xr??



PDA[ *xn?

LA[ ?xn??y? ?h?n?ya?? ?have stomach ache, afraid, quivering, be troubled? B-194b



CH[ ?xr?nge? ?growl, snarl? JGT92-156

WI[ x?n?? ?growl (as an animal)? KM-3923



PDH[ *xr??-

KS[ xl? ?growl? RR

OS[ ?xl? ?xthi?? LF-220b

QU[ xn??ke, xd??ke JOD



BI[ ?xy?- ?xyih??? ?growl, as a bear?; ?xy?d? ned?? ?sawing noise, make?

     ? DS-226a



COM[ The BI forms for both ?wind 3? and ?growl ?xr? >grunt? suggest an initial {*xy} rather tha {*xr}, if they?re cognate.





GLOSS[ rattle, rumble



GRAMCAT[

SEMCAT[



PSI[ *k???he



OTHREC[



PMV[ *k?o



PDA[ *k???A

LA[ k???A ?make grating noise with a knife against metal? EJ

DA[ ?k???a ??o?g?a? ?to rattle? R-302a



PWC[ *k??

CH[ k?? ?thunder? RR

WI[ k??o ?thunder? KM-1731



PDH[ *k??

OP[ ?k?o? ?sound of wings? JOD-1890:61.16

KS[ d?k?ok?o ?blaze? JOD

OS[ ?k??k?o ??????o? ?commotion, disturbance? LF-88a



BI[ ?kok? ?ko?? s?d?? ?give off cracking sound? DS-212a

BI[ ?kokohe ??o?oh?? ?rattling sounds? DS-212a



GLOSS[ thunder ?tuha



GRAMCAT[

SEMCAT[



PSI[ *t??ha



OTHREC[



PCH[ *t??ha

CR[ s?ua RG

CR[ su? G+G-56, DEC-7

HI[ tah? ~ t?hu ?thunder? J



PSE[ *t??ha ~ *t??he



BI[ ?tuh? ??uh?, ??he? ?thunder? DS-281b



TU[ ?tu?h- ?tu?i, tu?hangru?a? ?thunder? H.



COM[ Cf. ?thunder ?kr??, ?rainbow?. {tahu} shows rightward vowel

exchange. From PSi |t| we would expect CR |?/__u|; however, CR |s| is regular

for pre-CR |t /__a|.  This suggests a series of developments like the

following:  |*tahu > *sahu > *sau > *suu|.  |-uu| is the stem vowel in CR;

|-uua| is the citation form -- with added |-a| (?).  The implications are

that rightward vowel exchange occurred in PCH (not just in HI) and its product

was reduced in CR.  Cf. ?visible?.




GLOSS[ thunder ?kr?



GRAMCAT[



PSI[ *-kr??



PMV[ *kr?



PDA[ *wikr?ke

LA[ wign??ke ?rainbow? B-755a

DA[ ?w?hm?ke ?w?hmu?ke? ?rainbow? R-574b



CH[ ?gr?gr? ?grongron? ?thunder? JGT92-259



PDH[ *kr??

OP[ ??g??? hott? ?i?gth?? huto?? ?thunder? SW-173

KS[ glo ~ lo ?thunder? JOD

KS[ lo ?thunder? RR

OS[ ?l? ?gtho?? ?thunder? LF-55b

QU[ ?kn? ? kan? ?ike? ?thunder? RR/OM



TU[ ?tu?h?-kru?a ?tu?hangru?a? ?thunder? H.



COM[ TU and KS fail to preserve nasalization.


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