Borrowings.

[Anthony Grant]

Well, that’s Albert Gatschet for you – generalising on too few data.    Am I right in thinking that some Illinois sources have a bimorphemic form for 8 in addition to the Ohio Valley Siouan one?  As to numerals, John Koontz said that Caddo for ‘one’ was plausibly from a Dhegiha form.

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of david costa
Sent: 12 September 2013 19:28
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

Well, "nine" is monomorphemic in several Algonquian languages -- in some Ojibwe dialects, it's zhaang, in most Potawatomi dialects it's zhak, and in Kickapoo it's saaka. It may not be certain where that word comes from, but it's definitely monomorphemic.

Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Grant
Sent: Sep 12, 2013 11:08 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.


Indeed I seem to recall that some (Albert Gatschet?) said that they knew of no Native North American language where ‘nine’ was a single morpheme.  (I think someone adduced this principle as evidence that the Taensa material was a fake.)

Anthony

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of david costa
Sent: 12 September 2013 19:00
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

That's not excessively long for "nine". In a lot of North American languages, "nine" is explicitly something like "one missing", "one less" or "almost ten", etc. So often it's a long construction. The Miami word for nine, ninkotimeneehki, appears to mean "one missing", and in its conservative pronunciation is six syllables long. "Nine" is usually the oddball of the first ten numbers, historically.

Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory Larson
Sent: Sep 12, 2013 10:34 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

Yes!  That sounds like a very nice find.  Keep it up with that speaker!  :)

The only thing that crosses my mind is Lakhota napciyuNka, Santee napciwaNka, meaning ‘nine’, which seems excessively long for a common number.  Perhaps it is related to the /napci/ part of those words somehow?

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:27 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

Fascinating!  Keep up the good work, Sky!

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:37 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

I couldn’t find the term for nine in my office but I did get to talk to the individual who gave it to me.  They gave me “nanye” (NAH-nyeh) which sounds very close to “nanyi” (sugar).  Does this term ring a bell to anyone?  They easily rattled off the numbers 1-10 exactly as I know them but instead of “sanke” they had “nanye.”  They didn’t miss a beat either.  I haven’t come across this term before.  I don’t know if it is some long lost word for nine, if it means nine in another language, or if it is an Otoe-ization of the English “nine.”  I’m not saying it is impossible, but I am skeptical of that last one.  Especially with the ease that they blew through the numbers.  It wasn’t a “let me look up and to the left while I try to remember and then use the careful enunciation of an individual largely unfamiliar with these words” sort of thing but a fast, practiced/familiar pronunciation.  I’m going to have to see about working with this individual more ☺.

Any thoughts?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 9:16 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

About a year ago, I had a member of the Otoe-Missouria tribe tell me a word for nine that is different than the usual “sanke.”  I can’t remember what it was but I have it somewhere in my office.  I’ll try to find it tomorrow.  This talk about Siouan borrowing this term from Algonquian or vice versa has me very curious about that alternate term for nine.  Maybe it’ll shed some light here.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 8:59 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Borrowings.

> As I mentioned before, this "shankka" number for "nine" is also around in Algonquian. The word can be reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *ša·nka, but there are lots of problems: the etymon is completely missing from all of Eastern Algonquian, Miami-Illinois and Blackfoot; the Cree and Menominee forms don't have the proper reflexes for those languages and look like they're all borrowed from Ojibwe; and the Shawnee and Cheyenne forms inexplicably look like they derive from Proto-Algonquian *ča·nka, not *ša·nka. If it's a loan into Algonquian, it was borrowed early on, but after Algonquian had already started to separate out into dialects.

Missing from Miami/Illinois is troubling, since they seem to be the bunch most in contact with Kaw, Osage and Quapaw and probably all of Dhegiha.

  ­­



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