nine as one missing

Fri Sep 13 07:08:23 UTC 2013

Hoocąk’s number nine is such a case, too. 

hižąkicųšgųnį - hižą (ONE) - ki- cųųšgųnį (be.without)

it’s really funny when students have to say 999 because it’s extra long... 
- Iren

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 11:00:23 -0700
From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET
Subject: Re: Borrowings.
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

That's not excessively long for "nine". In a lot of North American languages, "nine" is explicitly something like "one missing", "one less" or "almost ten", etc. So often it's a long construction. The Miami word for nine, ninkotimeneehki, appears to mean "one missing", and in its conservative pronunciation is six syllables long. "Nine" is usually the oddball of the first ten numbers, historically.
Dave
-----Original Message-----

From: Rory Larson 

Sent: Sep 12, 2013 10:34 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: Borrowings.

Yes!  That sounds like a very nice find.  Keep it up with that speaker!  :)

The only thing that crosses my mind is Lakhota napciyuNka, Santee napciwaNka, meaning ‘nine’, which seems excessively long for a common number.  Perhaps it
 is related to the /napci/ part of those words somehow?

Best,
Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]
On Behalf Of Greer, Jill

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:27 AM

To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU

Subject: Re: Borrowings.

Fascinating!  Keep up the good work, Sky! 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]
On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky

Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:37 AM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: Borrowings.

I couldn’t find the term for nine in my office but I did get to talk to the individual who gave it to me.  They gave me “nanye” (NAH-nyeh) which sounds
 very close to “nanyi” (sugar).  Does this term ring a bell to anyone?  They easily rattled off the numbers 1-10 exactly as I know them but instead of “sanke” they had “nanye.”  They didn’t miss a beat either.  I haven’t come across this term before.  I don’t
 know if it is some long lost word for nine, if it means nine in another language, or if it is an Otoe-ization of the English “nine.”  I’m not saying it is impossible, but I am skeptical of that last one.  Especially with the ease that they blew through the
 numbers.  It wasn’t a “let me look up and to the left while I try to remember and then use the careful enunciation of an individual largely unfamiliar with these words” sort of thing but a fast, practiced/familiar pronunciation.  I’m going to have to see about
 working with this individual more J.

Any thoughts?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]
On Behalf Of Sky Campbell

Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 9:16 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: Borrowings.

About a year ago, I had a member of the Otoe-Missouria tribe tell me a word for nine that is different than the usual “sanke.”  I can’t remember what it was
 but I have it somewhere in my office.  I’ll try to find it tomorrow.  This talk about Siouan borrowing this term from Algonquian or vice versa has me very curious about that alternate term for nine.  Maybe it’ll shed some light here.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]
On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.

Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 8:59 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: Borrowings.

> As I mentioned before, this "shankka" number for "nine" is also around in Algonquian. The word can be reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *ša·nka, but there
 are lots of problems: the etymon is completely missing from all of Eastern Algonquian, Miami-Illinois and Blackfoot; the Cree and Menominee forms don't have the proper reflexes for those languages and look like they're all borrowed from Ojibwe; and the Shawnee
 and Cheyenne forms inexplicably look like they derive from Proto-Algonquian *ča·nka, not *ša·nka. If it's a loan into Algonquian, it was borrowed early on, but after Algonquian had already started to separate out into dialects.

Missing from Miami/Illinois is troubling, since they seem to be the bunch most in contact with Kaw, Osage and Quapaw and probably all of Dhegiha. 

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