Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Mon Sep 16 17:15:16 UTC 2013

I’ve been poking around a bit about the number nine and so far I haven’t found anything to back up the possibility of “grerabri” being related to “grebrą.”  So I thought I’d try to see what Hocąk has for this.  Note that I have almost no experience with Hocąk so this is very iffy.  But I found something interesting (which may be old news to you guys ☺).

I’ve been going through Maximilian and Long’s Otoe language lists lately and thought I’d look there for some Hocąk numbers to see if my idea can be backed up there.  Here is what Long has for nine:

jhink-ich-os-co-ne

Nothing at all like “sanke.”  So based on what’s being said here, I decided to look at what he has for one:

jhing-ke-de

Looks to me like “one” is definitely part of “nine” here.  I’m not sure what “(i)ch-o” is doing in there but the “s-co-ne” sure looks like “skunyi” (not) to me.  So I’m wondering if this is “one – not – (doing whatever)”.  An EXTREMELY tentative thought I am having right now is maybe the (i)ch-o might be something along the lines of “ah-kutch-ah” which Henry Merrell has as “the other side” (that was his spelling as well).  If so, that would be “one – not – the other side” which perhaps might refer to the idea of holding one finger down on one hand.  But like I said, that is EXTREMELY tentative.

So I thought, “Ooh!  Maybe eight follows suit!”  But I was stopped cold with eight being:

no-wunk

I have absolute no idea what is going on there.  It is nothing like “grerabri.”  I can see how the rest of the numbers match Otoe-Missouria (with the obligatory shifts and differences, of course) but not eight (or nine).  So now I am wondering if Hocąk kept the original form of nine but picked up their eight from somewhere else.

Has anyone else seen or worked with this form of eight before?  Are there any theories as to its origins?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Grant
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 6:13 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Jill, I think it’s ingenious and probably right.  It’s a grammaticalisation path I hadn’t heard of being explored in the study of numerals til  Pam mentioned it.

Anthony

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: 12 September 2013 22:51
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

It does work for ‘sit’ -  that’s nearly a formulaic closing for prayers (and even public speaking):  se ihanaNGe khe/khi…  ‘I’m sitting here (talking)- in your direction/toward you.  I apologize that my email is also limited – I’m using NG for my eng here.

Lots of folks did have a knowledge of Plains Sign Language,  so it’s a good theory, Bob.

  But I have to say I really love the 9/expecting something connection that Pam made -  it’s a REAL stretch,  but linking up ‘sitting’ in this particular etymology  with the last month of pregnancy / or even childbirth would be extremely interesting.  Any thoughts??

Jill

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Nice idea!  If that works, I like it!  :)

Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:34 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Hmm, speculatively, you don't suppose that the "other" phonetic form of nanye, namely nąŋe, could be related to 'sit' in Ioway in the same sense that yųka and wąka are ‘to lie’ in Lakota?  The positional would describe the last bent finger in finger counting from 1 to 10.

Ok, I'll shut up now.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:22 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

>  I think perhaps the Dakotan term relates to counting in sign language where 'nine' leaves one finger bent over, i.e., "lying", in the palm of the hand.  napcóka is 'palm' and yųka and wąka are ‘to lie’ in Lakota and the so-called D-dialects respectively, so I don't think Sky's term is related to the napci- part of the Dakotan term, although I'm afraid I don't have anything better to offer except the obvious fact that it looks like English 'nine', [nayn] with a metathesis of the y and n.

You’re probably right; that was a long shot.  I understand from the old Otoe-Iowa Indian Language Book I that was put out in 1977 that there is a regular difference in certain endings between Otoe and Iowa.  Where one ends in -nge the other ends in -nye.  I’ve never been quite sure about how the first was pronounced, whether that is supposed to be an eng or a nasal vowel + /g/.  nanye ought to belong to the -nye dialect, but checking the booklet that turns out to be Iowa, so I’m somewhat confused here.  It sometimes seems to equate to Omaha nasal vowel + /g/, but I wasn’t sure if it was the only thing that ending could relate to.

It’s still an interesting find, even if it does turn out to be English ‘nine’.  In this case, it would be a true borrowing, because it is thoroughly incorporated into an Otoe numerical sequence.  Also, that metathesis of y and n shows that the word was forced into an Otoe phonological structure, rather than leaving it in plain English.  Perhaps both the cumbersome, analytic terms used for ‘nine’ in so many North American languages, and the tendency to borrow the term, say something about how irregular the usage of it was?

Rory

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